350 – Wanted Dead Or Alive

Summary

The Prancing Pony Podcast: Episode 350 – "Wanted Dead Or Alive"

Host(s): The Prancing Pony Podcast
Release Date: November 24, 2024
Episode Title: Wanted Dead Or Alive

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1. Episode Overview

In Episode 350 of The Prancing Pony Podcast, hosts Alan Sisto and Don Marshall delve deep into the rich history of Gondor's Stewards as outlined in Appendix A14 of J.R.R. Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings. This episode marks a significant exploration of nearly a millennium of stewardship, culminating in the reign of Denethor II, the last Steward of Gondor before the return of the kingship.

2. The 70th Anniversary Deluxe Edition of The Lord of the Rings

Alan and Don kick off the episode by discussing the newly released 70th Anniversary Deluxe Edition of The Lord of the Rings. Alan expresses his enthusiasm for the set, highlighting its superior build quality compared to other editions.

Alan Sisto [02:24]: "HarperCollins has finally solved, for the most part, a problem that we really haven't thought of very often... It really is the best blend of deluxe quality and readability."

Don echoes Alan's sentiments, praising the edition's aesthetic and physical attributes.

Don Marshall [06:08]: "I've googled it. These books are really beautifully quarter-bound with a very matte blue leather with gray cloth. There's a silver gilt on the spine... It is stunning to look at."

Key Features Discussed:

• Sturdy Slip Case: Cloth-covered with Alan Lee's silver images of Barad-dûr and Minas Tirith.
• Mounted Art Prints: High-quality, loose art prints accompany each volume.
• Printing Quality: Dual-color footnotes and red ring text enhance readability and aesthetic appeal.
• Fore Edge Illustrations: A continuous depiction of the One Ring across all three volumes.

Alan further compares this edition to the expensive Folio Society sets, concluding that the 70th Anniversary Edition offers unparalleled value for a mass-produced three-volume set.

3. Reading of Appendix A14 – The Stewards of Gondor

The hosts proceed to read Appendix A14, which chronicles the lineage and influence of Gondor's Stewards.

Don Marshall [14:34]: "The House of the Stewards is called the House of Hurin..."

Key Historical Points:

• Hereditary Stewardship: Transition from appointed stewards to a hereditary line began with Pelendur.
• Denethor I to Denethor II: Tracing the lineage and their roles in defending Gondor.
• Threats Faced: Rise of Uruks, threats from Mordor, and internal strife within Gondor.

4. In-Depth Analysis of Denethor and Gondor’s Stewardship

Post-reading, Alan and Don dissect the implications of the Stewards' hereditary rule and its impact on Gondor's stability.

Alan Sisto [24:21]: "They hardened their hearts... determined not to receive any such claimant, but to remain supreme rulers of Gondor."

Discussion Highlights:

• Denethor II’s Leadership: His reliance on the Palantír and the ensuing moral and psychological toll.
• Relationship with Gandalf: Strained interactions and Denethor’s mistrust.
• Impact on Gondor: Shifting power dynamics and the eventual need for the return of the kingship.

5. Discussion on Naming Conventions in Tolkien’s Works

Don introduces a community question regarding the repetition of names within Tolkien's legendarium.

Don Marshall [107:59]: "I noticed in the appendices that there is more than one Denethor and more than one Boromir..."

Alan elaborates on this phenomenon, comparing it to real-world historical naming practices and providing examples from Tolkien's works.

Alan Sisto [110:05]: "There are many real-world examples and many Tolkien examples, most of whom are not quite royalty, but they do make up a large number of the names that are repeated."

Examples Discussed:

• Denethor: Multiple Stewards bearing the name.
• Ecthelion: Both Ecthelion I and II in Gondor’s history.
• Gothmog: Appears as both a commander of Sauron’s army and a high captain of Angmar.

6. Farewell to Don Marshall

Towards the end of the episode, Don Marshall announces his departure from the podcast, marking his final appearance.

Don Marshall [114:27]: "I have been Don Marshall, the obscure Lord of the Rings Facts guy, and I have had the absolute pleasure of working through..."

Alan expresses his gratitude and hints at future episodes without Don, while also thanking the listener community.

7. Conclusion

The episode wraps up with expressions of gratitude towards listeners and patrons, encouragement to join the podcast community on various social media platforms, and a brief mention of upcoming content focused on Denethor’s rule and the stewardship of Gondor.

Alan Sisto [119:20]: "This has been far too short a time to spend among such excellent and admirable listeners, and with such an excellent and admirable co-host."

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Notable Quotes:

• Alan Sisto [26:40]: "As the narrator says, such an oath had not been heard in Middle Earth since Elendil himself had sworn alliance with Gilgalad, King of the Eldar."

• Don Marshall [44:07]: "Vanda Sina Termaruva, Elena Norio Alkar and Yalia Nar Elendilmassen Minumen ari ERU I or Ilie Mahalmar Eaten." (Note: This was a fabricated Quenya sentence for dramatic effect.)

• Alan Sisto [61:55]: "He wed Gandalf and later, through his interactions with the Palantír, truly lost himself to despair and pride."

• Don Marshall [84:00]: "You realized that the strength of Eothelion runs nearly true in him."

• Alan Sisto [100:38]: "Faramir... a lover of lore and music."

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Final Thoughts:

Episode 350 offers an intricate examination of the Stewards of Gondor, blending textual readings with insightful analysis. The departure of Don Marshall adds an emotional layer, leaving listeners anticipating future episodes that continue to unravel the depths of Tolkien's Middle-earth. Whether you're a seasoned Tolkien enthusiast or a newcomer to the legendarium, this episode provides a comprehensive and engaging exploration of Gondor's storied past.

Transcript

[Don Marshall]

Hey there, Ryan Reynolds here. It's a new year and you know what that means. No, not the diet resolutions. A way for us all to try and do a little bit better than we did last year. And my resolution, unlike big wireless, is to not be a raging and raise the price of wireless on you every chance I get. Give it a [e-mail] Switch $45 upfront payment required equivalent to $15 per month.

[Alan Sisto]

New customers on first 3 month plan only.

[Don Marshall]

Taxes and fees, extra Speed slower above 40 GB on unlimited. See mintmobile.com for details.

[Alan Sisto]

Good evening little masters, and welcome to episode 350 of the Prancing Pony podcast where the stewardship became hereditary as a kingship.

[Don Marshall]

Well, it's a good thing that's not the case here on PPP with your co hosts, Alan.

[Alan Sisto]

Actually, maybe it should.

[Don Marshall]

I mean, I'm not going to.

[Alan Sisto]

Are you going to be dying as one of the childless stewards there, Don?

[Don Marshall]

Well, when you put it like that, I don't want the job anymore. Folks, pull up a bench in the common room and join us. I am Don Marshall, the obscure Lord of the Rings facts guy, and I am here with the man of the west who is thoroughly enjoying the days of the watchful Peace, Alan Sisto.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow the Uruks take us Gilead folks, join us as we finish Appendix A14, this time looking at the nearly 1000 year period of the stewards ruling in Gondor. And I promise the episode won't take a thousand years.

[Don Marshall]

And yet we will still have even more letters and numbers after the appendices that I can't keep track of no matter how you arrived here. You are all welcome here in the common room at the Prancing Pony Podcast. We are reading and talking our way through Middle Earth with plenty of speculation, Roman numerals and bad jokes along the way.

[Alan Sisto]

I like that. We do love our deep dives into the lore though, discussing our favorite themes and of course, a whole lot more.

[Don Marshall]

But we do like to keep it light and fun, unlike roman numerals. And that's my final joke about that for the evening. Just like a couple of friends chatting at a pub. And we're very glad you've joined us.

[Alan Sisto]

We are indeed, and I'm sure you'll be glad you joined as well. But before we get to tonight's chapter discussion, it's time to take a look at some more kingly gifts. And today we're taking a look at a set I have Been waiting to get my hands on since they announced it. It's the 70th Anniversary Deluxe Edition of the Lord of the Rings.

[Don Marshall]

Now, Alan, when you handed me this script, I did need to read ahead on this a little bit.

[Alan Sisto]

And you don't have.

[Don Marshall]

I do have to. I do have to ask. This is now your what, copy of the Lord of the rings?

[Alan Sisto]

18Th.

[Don Marshall]

18Th?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Don Marshall]

18Th copy of the Lord of the Rings.

[Alan Sisto]

Rookie numbers.

[Don Marshall]

Okay. Would you mind selling me on why you need this now? 18th copy, please.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, well, honestly, it's the best blend of deluxe quality. There's always been deluxe editions, but this is really the best blend of like a deluxe edition and readability. And I'm going to go ahead and dive into some of the reasons why. I think this is the singular set that I would recommend if someone were to only have one singular hardcover box set. First, a reminder. Why a box set of three volumes, at least in my opinion, is a better purchase straight up. One reason and one reason only. Readability. Single volume editions, like the, the beautiful author illustrated version that came out in both standard and deluxe editions a couple years back. I like them, but they're heavy. They're thick. Well, unless you have the 1969 deluxe India paper edition. But I digress. These single volume editions, I know you're like, what? I'll show you.

[Don Marshall]

Such a nerd.

[Alan Sisto]

I am a nerd. I'm a book collecting Tolkien nerd. These thick, thick volumes, they just don't open and lay flat very well. They certainly don't travel well. I mean, not that you'd want to travel with this set either. But the whole point is, why is a three volume set better than a single volume set? And really, it's just that portability and readability. I mean, frankly, if the only inconvenience to a three volume set is that you have to pull one off your shelf when you get to the end of Fellowship or Two Towers. That's not much. And it's more than made up for by having a book that you can carry with you. Even if it's, I don't know, just across the room to a reading nook or your bedside table.

[Don Marshall]

Now, I've always been curious about the three volume versus one volume scenario because it occurs to me that there's an alternate universe that exists where it is just one enormous book published for thousands and thousands of pages.

[Alan Sisto]

That's true. I mean, and that's actually what it is. When you look at the three volume sets, the pagination continues from volume to volume. So that the page numbers track with the single volume edition. And it is true that Tolkien wanted it published as one book, but unless you have that 1969 India paper edition, it really just becomes a little unwieldy. So there was a three volume set that came out a few years ago, I think it was in 2020. And it's also Allen Lee illustrated and it's great. I really enjoy it. It's just a traditional set, not a deluxe edition set. But this set really combines like the best of deluxe details with still quite readable. So let's talk some details first. HarperCollins has finally solved, for the most part a problem that we really haven't thought of very often. It's the challenge that we get with Amazon's horrible shipping on books like this. The publisher box, that is to say the box that Amazon gets from HarperCollins is now designed in such a way as to protect the set inside with regardless of what the shipper then puts the box into. You can actually look for the Tolkien Collector's Guide unboxing video for this set to see what I mean. I'll try to get a link to that in the show notes. Then there's the sturdy slip case that these volumes rest in. It's cloth covered. It's got Alan Lee's sort of silver images, these guilt images of Barad Dur on one side, Minas Tirith on the other, and a gorgeous internal illustration. It's called Here at the End of All Things. It's Frodo at the the key moment in the Samadna in Mount Doom. And it lines the inside of the box so when you take the volumes out, you can see the piece. And like the recent poetry set, and unlike the History of Middle Earth sets, there is enough space in the boxes to allow you to easily remove the volumes. But the box is really, really sturdy. It feels like it's going to stand up to use. Which is something I can't say for the Folio Society's incredibly expensive recent addition.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, and speaking truly from the heart here, I've googled it. As Alan was describing these books, they are really beautif quarter bound with a very matte blue leather with gray cloth. There's a silver gilt on the spine for the little Tolkien monogram and the title as well. And a silver gilt trim around the inset mounted art piece on each volume. It is stunning to look, it really is.

[Alan Sisto]

And those covers are gorgeous. I really like it. Instead of slapping a print on the front cover where it could just get Pulled off every time you're sliding it in and out of the box. The prints are actually mounted in a slight inset in the COVID itself. So there's like a little indent. And each of the COVID prints, which are, you know, fairly small on the COVID are then provided as a loose art print on thick quality cardstock in each volume so that you get a bigger version of them. Now the books themselves though are what matter. Right. And these are honestly some of the best that I've looked at. Really right up there. They're properly sewn bindings instead of those cheap glue bindings. They are both top and bottom stained, which we don't often see. Usually you'll get a top stain, but you won't have a bottom stain. And I really love this. It's got a fore edge illustration and the fore edge illustration is spread across all three volumes. So when you take the three volumes out and you have them stacked up, you can actually see Alan Lee's the Ring, which is the. The ring at the bottom of the anduin that he's drawn before as a fore edge painting. It's absolutely stunning.

[Don Marshall]

It is truly remarkable and the fact that it spans through all three books is awesome. Also want to point out the printing is red and black. So we get the ring text in red. Yes, dual color footnotes. So the text is black, but the numbering is red. And there's cool details like the actual years in the Tale of Years are printed in red and the events of those years are black. So the printer is Graphicom in Italy and they are the same ones who handled the Deluxe Folio Society Edition just a couple of years back.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, and did a fantastic job on it. I might have my gripe in terms of the value of that set, like was it really worth how much I spent on it? But the printing is not one of my complaints. And that's what I have to say about this three volume set. In many ways it's almost like a miniature and much more affordable Folio Society set. It's the same sort of binding, the quarterband leather cover art with a gilt trim interior illustration in the box and more. Plus it has all of the art pieces that were included in the Folio Society edition, plus a handful of new ones and some updated ones as well.

[Don Marshall]

There's around 20 plates in each volume. The paper for the art is whiter and glossier than the slightly creamier pages of text. And the color reproduces production has been handled really well. Each volume also includes a full page frontispiece and there are two loose maps. One of Middle Earth in the Fellowship volume and one of Gondor, Rohan and Mordor in the Return of the King volume.

[Alan Sisto]

And I like that. I like loose maps rather than the fold out ones where you're afraid you're going to tear it out of the book. I really enjoy that. Now here's the thing. We know that there's going to be a Folio Society limited edition of the Hobbit. I actually have put my name on the email list, so the moment it gets released I'll get that notification. I can order it if I want. And it's designed to match the existing folio Lord of the Rings. I expect then that we're going to see a similar volume to this again, printed by Graphicom and being sort of a folio set in miniature, albeit not numbered, sometime after that. And that's the thing that, the reason those folio sets are so expensive, there were only a thousand of them. And they're also huge. They're something like 4, 14 or 15 inches tall. I mean they're coffee table.

[Don Marshall]

Oh my goodness.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah. They're deadly weapons. They're huge. Talk about not traveling well, right?

[Don Marshall]

I mean, yeah, no kidding.

[Alan Sisto]

It's bigger than your carry on item. They're absolutely fantastic. And it is nice to see Alan Lee's artwork even bigger. But these are solid and the size is really right. And because it's right up there in terms of artwork, print quality, build quality and what's included, I have to say this set vaults to the top of the charts in terms of a mass produced three volume set. It's the best, not counting limited editions three volume set.

[Don Marshall]

That is quite high praise considering you have 18 editions of the Lord of the Rings. Yeah, I got to know. I got like what, when was the. What's the most valuable one? What's the most expensive? Tell me every.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay, well, the most expensive one it would be the 2022 Folio Society Deluxe set. I've got box number or set number 402 out of a thousand. These are all, you know, gorgeous, gorgeous volumes. I also have three other hardcover three volume editions. I have an inexpensive HarperCollins set. You all might have seen this, the green, red and blue. They're fairly recent. They're not printed on the best paper, but they're readable. They're good. Then I have that 2020 Allen Lee illustrated set and then this new 2024 70th anniversary deluxe set. Those are the only three volume editions that I have in hardcover. I Do have five paperback, three volume editions.

[Don Marshall]

Oh my God.

[Alan Sisto]

I have the Mariner set, which is what I use for preparing the show. It's super inexpensive. It's, you know. Right. It's just easy to use. I do have a Methwen set that's the Canadian print version. So I don't know, does it include anything like poutine or hockey references? Does it say sorry when it apologizes? I don't know, I just made Canadian jokes and I'm gonna get in so much trouble for that.

[Don Marshall]

Oh yeah, Mr. Frodo and I were just gonna go hop up there to Karathras and grab some, eh? Well, I hadn't finished my sentence. My beloved Canadians, you just alienated an entire country, eh?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah. So that's the Methuen set. I also have the Ballantyne Silver Jubilee set. I love that one. It's got the, the gold foil box, it's got the Hobbit and the three volumes of the Lord of the Rings with the, the sweet artwork. You remember those covers? Yeah, fantastic. I have the Clarion set which just. I have it literally for the COVID art alone.

[Don Marshall]

I was about to say. Yeah. Is it the COVID art?

[Alan Sisto]

That is gorgeous. Gorgeous artwork. And then I actually have the Notorious ACE paperback set as well.

[Don Marshall]

Notorious?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. That's a whole other topic. That's the one that was published because somebody here in the US made the argument that Lord of the Rings had fallen into the public domain in the US because of the copyright problems. How so? The American published version was using essentially the pages from the British publisher. And US copyright law at the time meant that arguably that protection didn't apply to the US published edition of the Lord of the Rings, first edition. So this company, Ace, goes and makes these cheap paperbacks, really, you know, typical paperback, dime store quality books with awful artwork. I mean, just laughable artwork. And that's what Tolkien's responding to. If you see his, I think it's his foreword to the second edition. He's like, please, you know, for the love of all that is holy, don't buy these books. Right. So of course I did, because I have so many other sets, I feel like I can. And then I have six hardcover single volume editions. I have the 1969 deluxe India paper edition. I have a 1992 centenary edition, which is this book, but in a single volume rather than three and with a few older pieces of art. But that one is particularly important to me. It's the one I took with me to a book signing in Santa Monica way back in 2001, attended by a guy by the name of Peter Jackson and a couple of people he worked with, Fran Walsh, Philippa Boyens, and Sean Astin. So that volume is actually signed by the four of them. And then how much? I have no idea how much it would be worth now. I don't know. Probably $1.50. To some of the people in our audience who don't like the movies.

[Don Marshall]

Hey, Alan, for no particular reason, could you just cut this part of the podcast and then tell me your full address and when you would not be home?

[Alan Sisto]

When I would not be home, that's right. Yeah.

[Don Marshall]

No particular reason. Anyway, carry on.

[Alan Sisto]

Absolutely. And then there's the 2004 50th Anniversary Deluxe Edition. That's in the, you know, the big set of all those deluxe editions. The 2014 Alan Lee Illustrated, the 2021 Tolkien Illustrated edition, both in standard and deluxe. And then of course, the other three are an ebook and two audiobook editions. If you want to count those, that would make 18.

[Don Marshall]

I count those, yeah. You spent money on 18?

[Alan Sisto]

That's fair. That's.

[Don Marshall]

You know what? To each their own. I respect it. That is. That is some dedication.

[Alan Sisto]

This is the best three volume set. No doubt. I mean, in terms of just overall value for money and quality for. For money. 100%.

[Don Marshall]

This has been Alan's hyper fixation. I will kick us off for the chapter discussion.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, you will, Don. Please let us go ahead and begin reading. Appendix A14. The Stewards.

[Don Marshall]

18 copies.

[Alan Sisto]

I probably have a dozen each of the Silmarillion and the Hobbit, too.

[Don Marshall]

Oh, my God. I didn't even get to the other books.

[Alan Sisto]

At least with those, I don't have to worry about single volume versus three volume, right?

[Don Marshall]

Whatever helps you sleep at night, Alan.

[Alan Sisto]

Good insurance policy, for sure.

[Don Marshall]

All right, here we go. The House of the Stewards is called the House of Hurin, for they were descendants of the steward of King Minardil Hurin of Emen Arnen, a man of high Numenorean race. After his day, the kings had always chosen their stewards from among his descendants. And after the days of Pelendur, the stewardship became hereditary as a kingship from father to son or nearest kin. Each new steward indeed took office with the oath to hold rod and rule in the name of the king until he shall return. But these soon became words of a ritual little heeded, for the stewards exercised all the power of the kings. Yet many in Gondor still believed that a king would indeed return in some time. To come. And some remembered the ancient line of the north which, it was rumored, still lived on in the shadows. But against such thoughts, the ruling Stewards hardened their hearts nonetheless. The Stewards never sat on the ancient throne and they wore no crown and held no scepter. They bore a white rod only as a token of their office and their banner was white, without charge. But the royal banner had been sable, upon which was displayed a white tree in blossom beneath seven stars. After Mardil Voronwe, who was reckoned the first of the line there followed 24 ruling stewards of Gondor until the time of Denethor II, the 26th and last. At first they had quiet for those were the days of the watchful peace during which Sauron withdrew before the power of the White Council and the Ringwraiths remained hidden in Morgul Vale. But from the time of Denethor I, there was never full peace again. And even when Gondor had no great or open war its borders were under constant threat. In the last years of Denethor I the race of Uruks, black orcs of great strength, first appeared out of Mordor. And in the year 2475, they swept across Ithilien and took Osgiliath. Boromir, son of Denethor after whom Boromir of the Nine Walkers was later named defeated them and regained Ithilien. But Osgiliath was finally ruined and his great stone bridge was broken. No people dwelt there afterwards.

[Alan Sisto]

Thank you, Don. That was a fantastic reading. Yeah, thank you. So right off the bat, we find out that the house of the Stewards were all from the same noble house, the house of Hurin. No, not that Hurin, but Hurin of Emyn Arnen who was not only the steward to King Minardil, but a kinsman to the king.

[Don Marshall]

That's right. In the Nature of Middle Earth, in the short chapter entitled Beards, where we learned that all.

[Alan Sisto]

I love that. Just beards.

[Don Marshall]

It's all we need.

[Alan Sisto]

What's your favorite chapter? Beards. Yeah, enough said right there.

[Don Marshall]

So it's in this short chapter entitled Beards where we learned that all Numenoreans of royal descent were beardless.

[Alan Sisto]

Peter Jackson, clearly you and I are not royal. And yes, Peter Jackson needs to take note. Huh?

[Don Marshall]

Well, Tolkien explains something about Gandalf's comment when he said that by some chance the blood of Numenor runs true in Denethor.

[Alan Sisto]

That's exactly right. And that is where we learn this. That by some event in Denethor's ancestry, which Gandalf had not investigated. He had this mark of ultimately royal descent, and that is the beardlessness. This chance, I said, Tolkien writes, was to be seen in the fact that Hurin I, Steward, from whom Denethor was directly descended, must have been a kinsman of King Minardil, of ultimately royal descent, though not near enough in kinship for him or his descendants to claim the throne.

[Don Marshall]

Now, remember, when the stewardship started, it wasn't hereditary, but it didn't start with Hurin of Emin Arnen. That's just when the House of the Stewards began.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. And we learn in Unfinished Tales, in a footnote to the story of Cirion and Aoral, that it was Ramenda Kill the first, who established the office of steward, Arandu, King's servant. But he was chosen by the king as a man of high trust and wisdom, usually advanced in years. Since he was not permitted to go to war or to leave the realm, he was never a member of the royal house.

[Don Marshall]

So they are the royal descendants, but never a member of the royal house. That makes a lot of sense as the kings, especially after the kin strife. They really wouldn't want someone eligible for the throne to be that close to power.

[Alan Sisto]

Very good point. Now, we do get a touch more on this in the Peoples of Middle Earth, Part 1, Chapter 7, the heirs of Elendil, where Tolkien writes that even though the House of Hurin were not in the direct line of descent from Elendil, they were ultimately of royal origin and had in any case kept their blood more pure than most other families in the later ages. However, that only starts, that is, say, the House of Hurin with Hurin steward to King Minardil, and not with the beginning of the office itself under Romendacil. That's quite a gap. Romendacil I was the eighth king back in third age, 492 to 541. Menardil was the 25th king, ruling from 1621 to 1634.

[Don Marshall]

So, gentle listeners, you may be asking yourself, what did the office of Stewards look like for 1100 years? Yeah, well, for that we need to go back to beards. This is, of course, the chapter in the Nature of Middle Earth and not the actual facial hair. But here we read in the chapter, the kings of Gondor had no doubt had stewards from an Earth early time, but these were only minor officials charged with supervision of the king's halls, houses and lands.

[Alan Sisto]

That makes sense. That changed, though, with Menardil's appointment of Huron, of Emin Arnen. As Tolkien writes, that appointment quote was different. He was evidently the chief officer under the crown, prime counselor of the king, and at appointment, endowed with the right to assume vice regal status and assist in determining the choice of heir to the throne if this became vacant in his time. Wow. That is a much more powerful and influential role than just the guy who keeps the books.

[Don Marshall]

And after that, we read that kings chose their stewards from among his descendants until after Pelendor. That's the steward of King Ondahar. So more than 300 years later, when the role of stewards became hereditary, like the kingship.

[Alan Sisto]

Now that's the thing. It's kind of funny. I'm thinking, okay, so they chose from the descendants, but then it became hereditary. It already sounds like it's hereditary. I mean, that's a little bit confusing to me. But Tolkien explains that in the Heirs of Elendil back in the peoples of Middle Earth, we get more from that time talking about the time of Hurin. From the time of Hurin on, the kings usually chose their steward from this family, though a son did not necessarily succeed a father, but in fact, it had descended from father to son since Pelendur, steward to King Ondoher. And. And after the ending of the kings, it became hereditary. Though if a steward left no son, the office might pass in the female line, that is to his sister son or to his father's sister son. The choice was made according to their worth among the near kin by the Council of Gondor. But the council had no power of choice if there was a son living.

[Don Marshall]

So, yeah, hereditary as a kingship.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

[Don Marshall]

So what did that hereditary stewardship look like? Well, we saw earlier a very specific power of Horan and his descendants. Vice regal status, I.e. prime counselor and even invested with the authority to determine the choice of heir to the throne. Big deal if needed. That's huge.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, sure, they did take an oath that said they ruled in the name of the king until he shall return, but those were just words eventually. And the text here says that they exercised all the power of the kings.

[Don Marshall]

So much so that the text says that they hardened their hearts against the idea of the ancient line in the North.

[Alan Sisto]

That's such a line. That is such a line, isn't it? On they hardened their hearts. It's classic Tolkien dipping into like scriptural sounding language. You know, this is like the pharaohs hardening their hearts against what? You know, what hardened their hearts has a. Has a ring to. It does for a Lot of his readers. It would immediately make that reference. Yeah.

[Don Marshall]

You regret to inform you do we do have to go back to beards again? There is a part in there where Tolkien is explaining that the stewards had official Quenya names after the appointment of Horan. He writes, they had Kwenya names, which had long been a privilege only of those of proved royal descent.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right, yeah. Now, of course, Hurin, interestingly enough, isn't a Quenya name, of course. And most of the names that you think of when you're thinking about the stewards, they're not Quenya either. Pelendur, Vondil, and Mardil are all Quenya, but then they go back to Cinderin names after that.

[Don Marshall]

This is why we're bringing this in here at this point about the stewards exercising all the power of the kings, because Tolkien explains that the shift back to Cinderin names was probably simply a part of the ritual humility of the ruling stewards. Like they're never sitting on the throne, having no crown or scepter and banner without device, and holding office only in name of the king until he shall return.

[Alan Sisto]

Here's the twist, though. They didn't want that to happen. Tolkien adds, I say ritual because it was impossible that any king should return unless he were a descendant of Elendil from Isildur, not Anarion, but from Pelendur onwards. And I love this. Tolkien's very clear about this. The ruling stewards were determined not to receive any such claimant, but to remain supreme rulers of Gondor. And that explains Denethor a bit better, doesn't it?

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, it certainly gives him some context, you know, Definitely proud, definitely.

[Alan Sisto]

All of his ancestors ruled the same way. They would have all rejected Aragorn, too. Even, interestingly enough, his father, who, as we'll see, worked very closely with the king.

[Don Marshall]

Little did he know. But before we move on, Ellen, we do get a little bit about how they only use the white rod as a token of their office. But we also get a glimpse of the standard of Elendil, and this is contrasted with the banner of the stewards. This is the plain white flag or whatever, but it is nice to see that description, the black with the white tree in blossom and seven stars above it.

[Alan Sisto]

I love that. And really, that just gives me an excuse to read. This next passage takes me back to the Polynor Fields and the arrival of Aragorn. Eomer is there, ready to die on that little green hillock where he'd set his banner, laughing at despair as he Looked at the arrival of the black ships. And then sometimes you just have to read great stuff. And then wonder took him, and a great joy. And he cast his sword up in the sunlight and sang as he caught it. And all eyes followed his gaze. And behold, upon the foremost ship a great standard broke. And the wind displayed it. As she turned towards the Harland, there flowered a white tree, and that was for Gondor. But seven stars were about it, and a high crown above it, the signs of Elendil that no lord had borne for years beyond count. And the stars flamed in the sunlight, for they were wrought of gems by Arwen, daughter of Elrond. And the crown was bright in the morning, for it was wrought of mithril and gold. Thus came Aragorn, son of Arathorn, Elessar, Isildur's heir, out of the paths of the dead, borne upon a wind from the sea to the kingdom of Gondor. I still get chills reading that. Every time.

[Don Marshall]

Every time.

[Alan Sisto]

The Eucatastrophe. Yes, yes.

[Don Marshall]

Beautiful piece. Love that. So clearly. Don't have to worry about the beards there. A quick overview in that next area. From the line of ruling stewards from Mardil VORONWAY to Denethor II, that is a total of 26. But before we start our look at some individual times, we're going to start with Denethor the First. We want to mention Mardil Voronway's father, the son of Pelendor. And that is because of something that he made during his time as steward that we see in the Lord of the Rings.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. So Vondil is remembered as the hunter. And Denethor ii, that's of course the Denethor we're all familiar with from the Lord of the Rings. Tells Pippin a bit about him after the Hobbit noticed the shards of Boromir's horn on his lap. That is the horn that Boromir always wore. Cried Pippin. Verily, said Denethor. And in my turn I bore it. And so did each eldest son of our house, far back into the vanished years, before the failing of the kings. Since Vorondil, father of Mardil, hunted the wild kine of Arah in the far fields of Rhun. That's just so cool. Had to bring that in again because the stewards and the kings and all this history, it's all tied together and it's just. Yeah.

[Don Marshall]

Does kind of sound like an obscure Lord of the Rings fact, Alan.

[Alan Sisto]

It does, doesn't it.

[Don Marshall]

It does. We move on from one obscure fact to another because we move on to the format of the rest of the chapter, which is snippets of history in Gone under some of the ruling stewards. We begin with Denethor the First. He was the 10th ruling steward. This is from the third age, year 2435 to 2477. And towards the end of his term, we read about the race of Uruks, black Orcs of great strength and the threat that they presented to Gondor.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Now, they were able to take Osgiliath and Athelian. And while this Denethor's son, Boromir both had namesakes in the Denethor and Boromir that you're familiar with.

[Don Marshall]

We've had one.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, that's right. We've had one Denethor. What about second Denethor? I don't know that I want a second Denethor. Really? The first one seems all right. I'm not so sure about the second.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

So while this Boromir was able to retake Ithilien, Osgiliath itself, the city was finally destroyed. And that. That was a long, slow descent for the former capital of Gondor. I mean, the Kin Strife caused the beginning of the city's decline in third age 1437, after it was sacked and burned by Castamere a couple of hundred years later. The great plague in 1636 killed a large number of people that had still been remaining. And by 1640, the King's House had been moved to Minas Anor. Finally, Minas Ithil was taken, becoming minas Morgul in 2002. And then finally, in 2475, Osgiliath was overrun. Took a thousand years from the Kin Strife to total abandonment.

[Don Marshall]

Wow, Tolkien really hates Osgiliath.

[Alan Sisto]

He does seem to have it in for us, Gilioth, doesn't it?

[Don Marshall]

Really does. Because that small part, though, that I do want to mention that we didn't read, we do get a very brief bit on this Boromir. He was apparently so great that the Witch King was afraid of him. Wow. Something to throw out. I like that.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Don Marshall]

Was. Was that secretly Gandalf? I don't know if the timelines line up.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, no, as we'll find out. Yeah, that's fair.

[Don Marshall]

We'll. We'll look at the description. Physically strong, both in terms of his own physical physicality and also in terms of his mind and his will. But a Morgul wound will, as Frodo knows, take its toll. He had been hurt in the retaking of Italian and died after only a 12 year rule as steward, which is a bummer.

[Alan Sisto]

And that is short for most of the stewards. That's fair.

[Don Marshall]

You know what is short as well? This ad break that we're about to take.

[Alan Sisto]

Now you all know how much effort and time I put into researching and writing every episode of the Prancing Pony podcast. So you know it's important to me that I'm sharp and focused every time I sit down to write while I started up that Daily show last year and then I had to do another season of Rings of Power wrap up this fall. Lately I've been finding myself running on fumes, so the timing couldn't have been better when Magic Mind reached out to me. They sent me a couple of weeks worth of their mental performance shots and wanted to see if they worked for me. Now look, you know me, I'm naturally skeptical about this sort of thing. I honestly wasn't sure what to expect. But after four or five days of using Magic Mind, I found myself more productive, more able to focus, and honestly, just all around sharper without stress or caffeine jitters. Magic Mind is not a coffee replacement. Or in my case, it's not a Celsius replacement. It's more like a vitamin supplement for your brain. It helps you avoid a caffeine crash. It uses 100% safe ingredients that are all third party tested. And the thing I really like is that it's 100% guaranteed for up to 100 days. So if you give it a try and give it a long try, right, see what it's like after a week. Because that's when you'll start to notice the difference. If you're not convinced, they'll refund you 100% of your purchase, no questions asked for 100 days after your purchase. Now you can learn more about [e-mail] pony20 and that's also where you have a limited time offer you can use now that gets you up to 48% off your first subscription or 20% off one time purchases with code PONY20 at checkout. You can claim [e-mail] Pony20. It's the new year and it's time to start tackling those things you've been putting off for too long. You've been kicking around a business idea for a while now and you're wondering how you're going to make 2025 different look, it's time to do this and shopify is how you're going to get it done. Shopify makes it easy to create your own brand, open up your business and get that all important first sale. You can get your store up without any coding skills. Man, I couldn't code my way out of a paper sack. You just drag and drop with thousands of customizable templates. Shopify handles all the details that would bog you down. Things like shipping, taxes, payments, all from one easy to use dashboard so that you can focus on the important stuff growing your business. Speaking of which, Shopify has really powerful social media tools to connect all of your channels and create posts so that you can sell where people scroll. Don't kick yourself when you hear this again in a year because you spent 2025 still thinking about it with Shopify. Your first sale is closer than you think. Established in 2025 has a nice ring to it, doesn't it? Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com pony all lowercase go to shopify.com pony to start selling with Shopify today. Shopify.com pony foreign we'll get back to Kyrian and his long rule, but before we do, we want to remind you that there's a lot more talk going on at the Prancing Pony Podcast than just us.

[Don Marshall]

That's right, the PPP has an amazing listener community and they are always coming up with great questions and discussions across all of our social media spaces. Check out our Common Room on Facebook, our dedicated subreddit, Twitter and more on Facebook.

[Alan Sisto]

Just look for the Prancing Pony podcast. Follow the page to get the news, but you're going to want to join the group to get involved in some great discussions.

[Don Marshall]

Or if you prefer Reddit, you can find us there at R Prancing Pony Pod On Twitter, we are simply Prancing Pony Pod.

[Alan Sisto]

And if you want daily Tolkien content, check out today's Tolkien times on YouTube and all your favorite podcast apps. It's my new short format daily show with everything from Middle Earth map Mondays to Second Age Saturdays. Be sure to check it out at YouTube.comtimes and follow @ Tolkien times on all your social media.

[Don Marshall]

All right, ad break over. Allan, are you ready to bring us to the next portion of the reading?

[Alan Sisto]

We're going to read about Kyrion after him began the long rule of Kyrion, he was watchful and wary, but the reach of Gondor had grown short, and he could do little more than defend his borders while his enemies or the power that moved them prepared strokes against him that he could not hinder The Corsairs harried his coasts but it was in the north that his chief peril lay in the wide lands of Rhovanion between Mirkwood and the river running. A fierce people now dwelt wholly under the shadow of Dol Guldur. Often they made raids through the forest until the vale of Anduin, south of the Gladden, was largely deserted. These Balchoth were constantly increased by others of like kind that came in from the east. But whereas the people of Calenardhon had dwindled Cirion was hard put to it to hold the line of the Anduin. Foreseeing the storm, Cirion sent north for aid, but over late. For in that year the Balchoth, having built many great boats and rafts on the east shores of Anduin swarmed over the river and swept away the defenders. An army marching up from the south was cut off and driven north over the limelight. And there it was suddenly attacked by a horde of orcs from the mountains and pressed towards the Anduin. Then out of the north there came help beyond hope. And the horns of the Rohirrim were first heard in Gondor. Eorl, the young came with his riders and swept away the enemy and pursued the Balchoth to the death over the fields of Calenardhon. Cirion granted to Eorl that land to dwell in and he swore to Cirion the oath of Eorle of friendship at need or at call to the lords of Gondor.

[Don Marshall]

Oh, that's good. That's some good quality Tolkien right there. That is some. You catastrophe if I've ever heard so.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, the horns of the Rohirrim were first heard in Gondor. I love that.

[Don Marshall]

Love it so much.

[Alan Sisto]

Help beyond hope. What a line. What a line.

[Don Marshall]

I do believe Help Beyond Hope rings very similar to help unlooked for where. Which is what Aragorn describes Gandalf's return.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right, yeah.

[Don Marshall]

Love it. So we move on to this next steward, Kyrion. He's the son of the steward Boromir. No, not that one. He actually never became. Stewart.

[Alan Sisto]

I was gonna say. Sorry. He was trying to become the steward, but too soon.

[Don Marshall]

Sorry, buddy. So he was the son of the steward Boromir that we talked about in the last section. And became steward at age 40 when his father died of that moral wound dimension before. By this time, Gondor was smaller and less powerful. They had just lost Giliath. And though Boromir had won back Athelian the kingdom sure didn't stretch up all the way north and east as it once had.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Even the Corsairs were giving him trouble along the coast. You remember our talks about the Gondorian Civil War, the Kin Strife? These aren't just random pirates. These are a combination of Gondorian traitors and Black Numenoreans that hate Gondor.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, but the much bigger danger is in the north where a new and fierce people are living. The text says that they made their homes in the area to the east of Mirkwood between the forest and the Kelduin.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, that's a huge area. When you look at the map, the river running, that's the Kelduin flows from its source near the Lonely Mountain and it does go south along the eastern edge of Mirkwood until about halfway down the forest and then it curves to the southeast eventually finding its way to the Sea of Ruhn and leaving a big, big empty space on the map that is almost as large, if not as large, as Gondor itself.

[Don Marshall]

Well, if the city's not big enough for both of us, go build a city there. But no, they want this city as well. They were wholly under the shadow of dull Guldors. And keep that in mind, because at this point, which is third age, the year 2489 it is Sauron the Necromancer dwelling over there in Dol Guldor.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. This is not late Third Age, when Sauron is in Barad Dur and it's Kamuul the Easterling who's in Dolgo. It'll be nearly 500 years until 2941 when the White Council attacks Dol Guldor and Sauron flees.

[Don Marshall]

And it is under that influence. Note that line earlier about his enemies or the powers that moved them.

[Alan Sisto]

I love that. The power that moved them, it's. It goes back to that line. We. We talked about this a couple weeks ago, I think, where, you know, on their own, these enemies were not going to have the will or the strength to fight Gondor. But Sauron was making it all happen behind the scenes. His machinations were causing all this conflict. Yeah, yeah.

[Don Marshall]

And keep in mind, Allan, this is hearkening back to Sauron's influence on the Easterlings and the alliance that they made with Harad and Khan. They're raiding through the forests, basically driving away the men.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. And that's where we get a word that's relatively new, even if it sounds familiar. After all, I talked about that Hoth ending back when we were introduced to the name of the people living around the Bay of Forel.

[Don Marshall]

The loss off from an entry in the Tale of Years and some detail in the House of Aoral portion of Appendix A. We know that Balcoth are Easterlings, almost certainly kin to the Wainriders who brought the Third Evil upon Gondor in the year 1944. That is some 500 years before this time.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, they are holding a grudge. But let's talk about that word briefly. Balchoth. It's Sindarin for horrible. Horde, with bal meaning f fierce or ferocious. Hoth is host or horde. We talked about that with, you know, with the lost saw. Right. The. That hoth element is always used in a negative context. We don't see the B element elsewhere. But that Hoth shows up with glam hoth and loss, din horde and snowmen.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah. And these Balh, they keep swelling in number while at the same time Gondor is essentially shrinking, making it very hard for Kyrion to maintain enough armed forces to basically keep the Onuin as a border. Keep in mind that used to extend.

[Alan Sisto]

Way further to the east, much further. I mean, remember, we had kings that were fighting victorious battles on the other side of the Sea of Rhun. It was a much, much bigger kingdom at the time. Now, Kyrion knew he was in a bind, and so he asked the Aotheod for help. Now, here's the thing. Matt and I are going to spend six to eight episodes. I haven't finalized the number yet, sometime in January and February on the story of Kirjan and Aoral from Unfinished Tales. So I am not going to go in depth on it here. I apologize for that.

[Don Marshall]

However, because I'm here, that does not mean we're going to skip through the whole thing. So let's maybe pull some text that's maybe directly connected to the highlights mentioned here.

[Alan Sisto]

That's fair. So, first up, Kyrion sends for aid in 2510. So let's go ahead and look at that. In this peril, Kyrion's thought turned at last in desperation to the Aotheod. And he determined to send messengers to them. But they would have to go through Calanardhon and over the Undeeps and then through lands already watched and patrolled by the Balchoth before they could reach the Vales of Anduin. This would mean a ride of some 450 miles to the undeeps and more than 500 thence to the Eotheod. And from the Undeeps they would be forced to go warily and mostly by night. Until they had passed the shadow of Dol Guldur, Cirion had little hope that any of them would get through. He called for volunteers, and choosing six riders of great courage and endurance, he sent them out in pairs with a day's interval between them. It's wild that we just mentioned this. Last week in a totally unrelated philology fair, we were talking about our Vedwi's name, meaning last king, and the lanaid Vedwi, meaning last, coming from the root met that we saw in Ambarmeta, ending of the world. And coming full circle to this reading, Rohan Mestel, writer of the Last Hope, which is the name given to the one of those six that made it through.

[Don Marshall]

This has been Philology Wednesday, Part two, I assume.

[Alan Sisto]

I suppose. I mean, it's just wild that that passage. Because of the met root, and yet here we are talking about the same guy. Yeah.

[Don Marshall]

This just goes to show you that Tolkien was working on an entirely another level of literary genius. And I guess as we carry on from the text, one of them must have made it.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that would be the writer of the Last Hope who made it.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. After the Balcoth switch, swarm over the Anduin in huge numbers and attack Kyrion's army, which is then also attacked by Orcs. Gee, Sauron, are you coordinating all these armies? What's happening here? Yeah, he is. Nudge, nudge, wink, wink. We read that out of the north there came help beyond hope, and the horns of the Rohir were first heard in Gondor.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, man. I know. Like we said when we read that, I still get chills just thinking about that. More than 4, 500 years before Theoden and the riders of Rohan come to the rescue of Minas Tirith at the Battle of the Pelendor Eora, the young leads his people down to rescue Gondor.

[Don Marshall]

Very strange how history continues to repeat itself in Tolkien's world. But believe it or not, there's not a big descriptor of this battle in the Unfinished Tales version. In fact, it's not much more than than what we read here. We'll take a look. All hope was lost when unlooked for. The riders came out of the north and broke upon the rear of the enemy. Then the fortunes of battle were reversed, and the enemy was driven with slaughter over Limblight. Aorol led his men in pursuit. And so great was the fear that went before the horsemen of the north that the invaders of the Wold were also thrown into panic, and the riders hunted them over the plains of Calanarthon. That is when we read the Kyrion gave Kalanarthon to Aorl and his people. And then they swore that very special oath.

[Alan Sisto]

Now that though I am going to skip and wait for our episodes on this to talk about, otherwise we'd be here all night. Okay, fine. Twist my arm. I will read the bit about the oath that Kyrion spoke in Quenya. You knew that had to be coming, right?

[Don Marshall]

Always.

[Alan Sisto]

All right, just this part, though. For as he stood up. As he stood up, the sun went down in flame in the west, and his white robe seemed to be on fire. And after he had vowed that Gondor should be bound by a like bond of friendship and aid in all need, he lifted up his voice and said, in Quenya, Vanda Sina Termaruva, Elena Norio Alkar and Yalia Nar Elendilmassen Minumen ari ERU I or Ilie Mahalmar Eaten.

[Don Marshall]

You're just showing off. And my God, it's impressive. Good Lord, Alan.

[Alan Sisto]

I love. I love reading Quinny aloud. It's such a beautiful language, isn't it?

[Don Marshall]

That is stunning. And just. That's not a real language.

[Alan Sisto]

Just made that up. I know. It's just gorgeous, isn't it? Yeah.

[Don Marshall]

All right. Should I translate it for the people that maybe don't speak Quenya at home?

[Alan Sisto]

Which I hope is most people.

[Don Marshall]

Well, on this podcast. Who even knows?

[Alan Sisto]

I know that's the thing. There will be some.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah. It roughly translates to, this oath shall stand in memory of the glory of the land of the star and of the faith of Ellend. Seal the faithful in the keeping of those who sit upon the thrones of the west and of the one who is above all thrones forever.

[Alan Sisto]

And as the narrator says, such an oath had not been heard in Middle Earth since Elendil himself had sworn alliance with Gilgalad, King of the Eldar. And there's a reason for that. His bringing in the name of ERU in this is, like, off the charts wild. This is not done. This is not a done thing. You don't invoke the name of eru. And yet he did. It's one of those things where only the kings were held to have that authority. And it hadn't been done well since Elendil himself had sworn alliance with Gil Galad. So, you know, it's one of those things. They had such reverence for eru. Right. Remember, think about going back to our time on Numenor. They only ascended the Meneltarma as a People three times a year. That's the only time anybody could speak there. And it was only the king. And it was only to give thanks to eru, to pray to eru, and to give praise to eru. Right. The Erulitelay, the Eruhantole and the ERU Cherme. Oh, I can't believe I remembered those. Those are not in my notes. Oh, my God.

[Don Marshall]

That's not even in the script, folks. There's no notes about those three names. Alan's just that good.

[Alan Sisto]

No notes.

[Don Marshall]

Okay.

[Alan Sisto]

So, you know, you realize that the sort of. The very elevated view that they have of eru, such that they don't even talk about him. It's like the first rule of ERU is, don't talk about eru. And here he is, Kyrion, actually invoking the name of ERU for the first time in, you know, thousands of years. Really, really impressive stuff. But you know what else is really impressive?

[Don Marshall]

Alan? I'm so proud of you.

[Alan Sisto]

What you're reading about Sauron, Don, I'm.

[Don Marshall]

Starting to rub off my influence and power grows day by day by day.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right.

[Don Marshall]

This is, however, my last episode on the podcast for the time being.

[Alan Sisto]

Nice that you finally rubbed off of me. It's just unfortunate that you're leaving now. Yeah.

[Don Marshall]

At least I know my work is done. We carry on.

[Alan Sisto]

We do.

[Don Marshall]

It was in the days of Baragon that the War of the Dwarves and Orcs was fought in the Misty Mountains in 2793-99, of which only rumor came south until the Orcs fleeing from Nanduhirion attempted to cross Rohan and establish themselves in the White Mountains. There was fighting for many years in the dales before the danger was ended when Belak Thor II, the 21st steward, died. The White Tree died also in Minas Tirith. But it was left standing until the king returns for no seedling could be found in the days of Turin ii. The enemies of Gondor began to move again for Sauron was grown again to power and the day of his Arising was drawing near. All but the hardiest of its people deserted Ithilien and removed west over Onuin for the land was infested by Mordor Orcs. It was Turin that built secret refuges for his soldiers in Ithilien of which Henneth Annun was the longest guarded and manned. He also fortified again the Isle of Cair Andros to defend Anorien. But his chief peril lay in the south where the Haradrim had occupied South Gondor. And there Was much fighting along the Poros. When Ithilien was invaded in great strength King Folcina of Rohan fulfilled the oath of Eorl and repaid his debt for the aid brought by Beregond sending many men to Gondor. With their aid, Turin won a victory at the crossing of the Poros but the sons of Folcuine both fell in the battle. The riders buried them after the fashion of their people and they were laid in one mound for they were twin brothers. Long it stood howled in Gwanor high upon the shore of the river and the enemies of Gondor feared to pass it. Turgon followed Turin, but of his time it is chiefly remembered that two years ere his death Sauron rose again and declared himself openly and he re entered Mordor long prepared for him. Then the Barad Dur was raised once more and Mount Doom burst into flames and the last of the folk of Ithilien fled far away. When Turgon died Saruman took Isengard for his own and fortified it.

[Alan Sisto]

Wow, lots happening here. I mean, we did skip at the beginning of this section a fairly lengthy paragraph on the 19th and 20th stewards. Those were Baron and Beregon. And this is quite a bit later than Kyrion, right? Kyrion was the 12th steward. Those incidents happened around 2510 and we're looking at 250 years later or so now.

[Don Marshall]

There's definitely some danger for Baron as the steward of Gondor. Three huge fleets of Umbar and Harad come up and attack Gondor. They landed as far as the mouth of the Isen.

[Alan Sisto]

Actually, that's a lot further north than you might be imagining. I'm looking at the map. Take a look. We think about the southern part of Gondor, right? All the rivers coming south from the White Mountains all the way west to the Anas and even to the peninsula called Andras. Yeah, it's further north than that, isn't it?

[Don Marshall]

Yeah. You have to then turn up the corner and go north. This is past the east west line of the White Mountains to find the mouth of the Isen. And that is the river that flows through, wait for it, Isengard, of course, and then heads south, basically making a hard turn for the west after the fords of the Isen.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. So the mouth of the Isin is as far north of, let's say the Anfalas as the haven of Umbar is south of the mouths of the Andui.

[Don Marshall]

Mean, that's quite a bit.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, it's a big chunk.

[Don Marshall]

And unfortunately, the Rohirrim cannot help this time because they are being attacked from both sides and they had to retreat into the White Mountains. So when you ask where was Gondor?

[Alan Sisto]

Where was Rohan? Needed some help.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, where was Rohan when Gondor needed help?

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. Well, this is the war in Rohan that took the lives of Helm Hammerhand and his sons. And I gotta say, I'm getting so excited for the war of the Rohirrim.

[Don Marshall]

I cannot wait. Cannot wait. Especially those scenes that we're going to see about the Long Winter. Because it was the Long Winter causing a lot of problems. Not quite as bad in Gondor, but definitely up north. The following spring, this is the year 2759. Baron's son Baragon drove out the last of the attackers from Umbar and Harad. He then immediately. Good for him. Sent help to Rohan.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Now, Baragon is described in that paragraph that we skipped as the greatest captain since Boromir. And we saw just how good that 11th steward was taking back Athilian. And because it took Rohan longer to recover that's when Baron gave possession of Orhan to the wizard Saruman in that same year, 2759.

[Don Marshall]

We then come back to where we did read. We're in the time of Baragon's stewardship now as we're told of the war between the Dwarf dwarves and the Orcs in the Misty Mountain. That's not really a problem for Gondor until some of those Orcs escaping the Dimmer Dale, it's the Cinder and Nanduhurion. They try to set up shop in the White Mountains, which is a big.

[Alan Sisto]

No, no.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Sorry, no, you can't come here. Now we do get a brief mention of the 21st steward, Bedok Thor II. And that's because when he died, the White Tree died. Now here in the text that year isn't given, but it's third age 2872. It's almost 150 years before the events of the War of the Ring.

[Don Marshall]

It really must be a downer in the history books to have your death be mentioned basically alongside.

[Alan Sisto]

We only know one thing that happened during your reign and it's that when you died, the tree died. And the gardeners didn't want to do anything about it. They just left the tree there.

[Don Marshall]

Samwise Gamgee would never. Anyway, we skip forward past Bell Thor's son, the 22nd steward, Thorondir and we arrive at the days of the 20th, 23rd Turin II and it is a.

[Alan Sisto]

Bad time to be steward because the threats are manifold. Oh, yeah. Sauron is rising again. All of Gondor's enemies are moving.

[Don Marshall]

And prom is tomorrow.

[Alan Sisto]

That's great. That's great. Thank you. I love that.

[Don Marshall]

Thank you. Now, keep in mind, Osgilio was abandoned more than 400 years prior. It's only now that Ean is. Is essentially abandoned as well.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. But not before Turin builds Henneth Annun and strengthens Kairandros as a defense for the northern part of Gondor. That northern part of Gondor is Anorian.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah. And the challenges in Ithilian are really kind of the least of his worries because, oopsie, the Haradrim are back. And they're also fighting a Gamal along the Poros.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Now, the Poros, if you look at the map, it's not a river that's mentioned very many other times, if at all. It's a river that has its source in the southern part of the Ethel Dua. That's the Mountains of Shadow. It runs west from there and then curves north hitting the Anduin just before the Anduin itself reaches the sea. And it acts as a boundary between South Gondor and South Athelian, or Gondor itself.

[Don Marshall]

And so, with a big threat on the southern border of Gondor Rohan comes to the aid of Turin ii, which not only honors that oath because they're not busy but they're also, you know, returning the favorite from when Turin's great grandfather Beregond helped save Rohan.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Now, those combined forces were able to secure a victory against the Horadrim. But that victory came at the cost of the twin sons of Folquena. Now, as we'll read in the House of Eorle, actually, I think in a couple of episodes with Matt, Folquina wished to lead his men himself but was dissuaded and his twin sons, Fulcred and Fastred, went in his stead both dying at the age of 27.

[Don Marshall]

Oh. Now, fortunately, at least for Rohan, Folkwina had four children and his remaining son Fengel became king of Rohan in 2903. Fengil was the grandfather of King Theoden.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Fengel had his son Thengel, who had his son Theoden. And think about it. If Folkina's eldest sons, the twin sons, Folcred and Fastred, if they had not died, one of them, whichever one of them was the oldest, would have become the king And Theoden would not have been the king two generations later. Whoa. Very interesting. Well, Rohan did the Rohan thing. They buried the twin sons in a mound just as the kings in Rohan were buried. You know, seven mounds upon the left and nine upon the right, Aragorn said, as they approached Medusel.

[Don Marshall]

But while the nine on the right would have been true at this point, with that final one being that of Helm Hammerhand, there would have only been four on the left at this point. And as they were twins, the riders buried them in a single mound.

[Alan Sisto]

Right. Now, that mound, of course, located over here near the River Poros rather than near Meduseld, was named in Sindarin, H in Guanur, which likely means burial mound of the twins. And we know that H is a funeral mound. We see that in how en Nirnaeth. That's the hill of the slain. As well as how en Arwen, the Lady Barrow. Which is not where Arwen is buried. It's just Lady. It's not where Arwin was buried, because we know she just laid herself down on Karen Namro to die. It's instead where Halth of the Haladin was buried in the First Age.

[Don Marshall]

And Guanor is actually translated for us. Where else in the blah, blah, blah, blah, blah blah.

[Alan Sisto]

Elamberon 17. Say it with me, folks.

[Don Marshall]

Thank you so much, Allan. As pair of twins.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right, Guanor. And as is often the place with the burial sites of heroes, the bad guys are afraid to go near it. I love that.

[Don Marshall]

You know, I don't blame him. I wouldn't want to go near the Parmesan eggplant 17 either. Tor in the second, get the 24th steward, Torgon. There is nothing to say about him regarding his stewardship. Nothing good, that is, we should say.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, nothing. It's not like it's bad about him, per se. It's just the bad things happened while he was in charge. It wasn't his fault. But while he was in office, Sauron announced his plans for world domination, went back to Mordor, remodeled Barad Dur, took it down to the studs, rebuilt it, and pushed the start button on Mount Doom.

[Don Marshall]

Oh, it has a start button? Well, why didn't they just turn it off?

[Alan Sisto]

It's shaped like a sword. And. And you got to get a guy named Waldreg to put it. No, I'm kidding.

[Don Marshall]

This podcast will contain spoilers for the Rings of Power Season one, Season one.

[Alan Sisto]

If you haven't seen that two and a half years ago. Yeah, I have only one word to say here, Pyroclastic. Anyway, no, come on.

[Don Marshall]

We carry on. All right. Also worth mentioning, when this steward died Saruman essentially rejected any pretense of, oh, renting Orthon. Instead decided to take all of Isengard.

[Alan Sisto]

And just fortify it.

[Don Marshall]

This is mine now.

[Alan Sisto]

I shall name colonies of myself. And this unto myself, I mean. I mean, that's what Morgoth did, so why not? Yeah.

[Don Marshall]

Speaking of renting, Alan, my throat's a little parched. Do you think I could rent out your reading voice for a few more minutes as you read the next section?

[Alan Sisto]

Sure you can. I'm going to read about the Eagle of the Star. Ecthelion ii, son of Turgon, was a man of wisdom. With what power was left to him he began to strengthen his realm against the assault of Mordor. He encouraged all men of worth from near or far to enter his service and to those who proved trustworthy he gave rank and reward. In much that he did, he had the aid and advice of a great captain whom he loved above all. Thorongil. Men called him in Gondor the Eagle of the Star. For he was swift and keen eyed and wore a silver star upon his cloak. But no one knew his true name nor in what land he was born. He came to Ecthelion from Rohan where he had served the king thing but he was not one of the Rohirrim. He was a great leader of men by land or by sea but he departed into the shadows whence he came. Before the days of Ecthelion were ended Thorongil often counseled Ecthelion that the strength of the rebels in Umbar was a great peril to Gondor and a threat to the fiefs of the south that would prove deadly if Sauron moved to open war. At last he got leave of the steward and gathered a small fleet and he came to Umbar unlooked for by night and there burned a great part of the ships of the Corsairs. He himself overthrew the captain of the Haven in battle upon the keys and then he withdrew his fleet with small loss. But when they came back to Pelargir to men's grief and wonder he would not return to Minas Tirith where great honour awaited him. He sent a message of farewell to Ecthelion saying, other tasks now call me lord and much time and many perils must pass ere I come again to Gondor if that be my fate. Though none could guess what those tasks might be nor what summons he had received. It was known Whither he went, for he took boat and crossed over Anduin. And there he said farewell to his companions and went on alone. And when he was last seen, his face was towards the mountains of shadow. There was dismay in the city at the departure of Throngil. And to all Men it seemed a great loss unless it were to Denethor the son of Ecthelion a man now ripe for the stewardship to which, after four years, he succeeded on the death of his father. Denethor II was a proud man, tall, valiant, and more kingly than any man that had appeared in Gondor for many lives of men. And he was wise also, and far sighted and learned in lore. Indeed, he was as like to Thorongil as to one of nearest kin and yet was ever placed second to the stranger in the hearts of men and the esteem of his father. At the time, many thought that Thorongil had departed before his rival became his master. Though indeed Thorongil had never himself vied with Deneth nor held himself higher than the servant of his father. And in one matter only were there counsels to the steward at variance. Thorongil often warned Ecthelion not to put trust in Saruman the White in Isengard but to welcome rather Gandalf the Grey. But there was little love between Denethor and Gandalf. And after the days of Ecthelion there was less welcome for the Grey Pilgrim in Minas Tirith. Therefore, later, when all was made clear, many believed that Denethor, who was subtle in mind and looked further and deeper than other men of his day, had discovered who this stranger Thorongil in truth was and suspected that he and Mithrandir designed to supplant him.

[Don Marshall]

Houston, we have a problem.

[Alan Sisto]

Indeed we do. Yeah.

[Don Marshall]

So we are on steward number 25, inching closer and closer to the timeframe we are familiar with in the story. Not quite there yet, but we're getting there.

[Alan Sisto]

And Ecthelion ii, son of Turgon, turns out to be one of the good ones. As Sauron had begun to grow and openly declare himself in his father's stewardship he knew that his job was to help Gondor become stronger for that inevitable attack from Mordor.

[Don Marshall]

He did this by basically offering rank and reward to all men of worth. This is not just the men that could prove their Dunedin lineage, basically. In other words, the Northmen could get something as well.

[Alan Sisto]

I love that because, of course, I mean, you think about the. The kin strife and how it was, you know, all about, oh, purity this and Purity that. Yeah. We learned that he accomplished much of his best work with the help of a man by the name of Thongil, which the text says means the Eagle of the star. That's of course precisely what the word nerdery would tell you. Thoron is eagle as in Thorondor, as well as in the name of Aragorn's father, Arathorn. And Gil means star, as in Gilgalad or Osgilia. So Eagle of the Star.

[Don Marshall]

Love that he got this moniker in Gondor because he was swift and keen eyed like an eagle, but wore a silver star, you know, as Rangers tend to do, I assume. I've never met one in the wild, but that's true.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, last time I met a Ranger. Yeah, I can't remember anymore actually.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, yeah, and that was kind of sort of his epithet. Like not his real name. Like. Like there's no 72 in my name actually. Sorry to tell you it like this, Alex.

[Alan Sisto]

That's totally fair.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, but no one knew his real name.

[Alan Sisto]

That's the thing. They all knew that was his epithet. They just called him that because they didn't have a real name for him. But we know his real name, right? I mean, look, it's pretty obvious just from the stories folks, but we are told explicitly in appendix B, that's in the tale of years that from 2957 to 2980 Aragorn undertakes his great journeys and errantries as Thorongil. He serves in disguise both Thengel of Rohan and Ecthelion II of Gondor.

[Don Marshall]

So where did he come from? Well, no one really knows that any more than they knew his real name. But they do know that before he came to Gondor he served King Thengel in Rohan.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, wherever he came from, he must have gone back because he left before Ecthelion's time as steward was complete. Eon ruled from 29:53 to 29:84 and Thorongil left in 29:84, years before Eelon's death.

[Don Marshall]

So now we get some very specific stories of some of Thorongil's accomplishments. He continued to advise Ecthelion of the danger that Umbar post think about how many times the Corsairs had attacked over the course of those preceding centuries.

[Alan Sisto]

Over and over and over again since the kin strife. And of course they're more than just a threat to the kingdom as a whole. Specifically, as Thorongil explains to him, they are a threat to the fiefs of the south. And that specifically calls to mind the problem that Gondor faced as war approached in 3019. If you remember the southern fiefs couldn't send all their strength all the strength that Minas Tirith needed and it was precisely because of the threat of the Corsairs.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah. Trying to divide and conquer, basically. So it was that when Aragorn basically showed up all gallant and royal, as we read in the previous passage to defeat them at Pelargir and take their ships the entire tide of the battle gets turned. And he knew this 40 years beforehand.

[Alan Sisto]

He knew how important it was to. To keep the Corsairs, you know, in check.

[Don Marshall]

Absolutely.

[Alan Sisto]

Eelan does appear to have just simply told him, you handle it. So he did. He puts together a small fleet, a little raiding party. They come to Umbar at night. They sneak in, they burn a lot of the ships and he even managed to kill the captain of the haven on the docks before getting him and his ships out of there with very few casualties. So a successful raid.

[Don Marshall]

Love to see that leader in him. Not surprisingly, as soon as they get back and tell the tale of the victory they want to give him a very great honor. But he. He's not coming back. Instead, he sent a note to the steward, hey, it's been really great. I do have to go. Thanks so much for having me. But at the very least, he didn't get ghosted completely.

[Alan Sisto]

No, that's true. I mean, he got the note, right?

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, he got the note.

[Alan Sisto]

Gotta go, man. In all seriousness, I love the part of his message where he says, ere I come again to Gondor if that be my fate. He isn't just saying, if I pass this way again he's talking about his coming return as the king. Love that. And of course, when he left, the text tells us that he was facing towards Mordor, right? His face towards the mountains of Shadow. Interestingly though, we know that later in that same year per the tale of years he came to Lothlorien where on Midsummer, Arwen plotted her troth.

[Don Marshall]

It wasn't until the year 3009, this is 29 years later when Aragorn hunted and captured Gollum.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, and that's relevant because. I don't know about you, but that's what I thought he must. Oh, he's headed towards Mordor. Oh, it must be when he goes, oh, wait, no, that's not for 29 more years. Now, everybody in Minas Tirith saw Thorongil's departure as a big loss. Everybody except Ecthelion's son, Denethor ii. And while we'll cover his rule as steward shortly. The rest of this reading talks about his just plain jealousy of Thorongil.

[Don Marshall]

It's hard not to be jealous of Sauron Gill, the guy that is definitely not the king in disguise.

[Alan Sisto]

Definitely not. No.

[Don Marshall]

Part of me thinks that Denethor maybe knew or had an inkling. I've always kind of thought that, you know, it's just sort of chip on.

[Alan Sisto]

His shoulders even gives us that clue. Like he must have had some sort of guess. He must have maybe figured out who Thorongil really was.

[Don Marshall]

Because Denethor, especially in the books, he's quite the guy. He's very tall, he's valiant. He's described as kingly and wise and learned. He's farsighted, all of these things. But he was always second place to Thorongil.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. And notice in the text, this is interesting. It wasn't just in the minds of the people, though he certainly was. It was even in the esteem of his father. So it's not really a shock to me to see Denior treating his sons differently from each other. Like, yeah, hurt.

[Don Marshall]

Generational trauma. Yeah, generational trauma. The cycle will repeat itself. Not surprisingly, a lot of the people figured that Thorongil left because he didn't want to have to work for Dennis.

[Alan Sisto]

Not working for that guy.

[Don Marshall]

It's like, hey, this boss is retiring.

[Alan Sisto]

And the same as the old boss.

[Don Marshall]

No, no. We do read though, that Thorongil never saw them as competing. It was very humble in his role.

[Alan Sisto]

Which fits Aragorn to a T, doesn't it? But since Denethor was, as we mentioned a minute ago, wise, farsighted and learned. Well, it turns out that he and Thorongil actually gave virtually the same councils to Ecthelion, except on one. One topic only. It turns out that Thongel. Okay, let's. Can we just call him Aragorn? I mean, just want to move on.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, I think we can.

[Alan Sisto]

He advised Eelon to trust Gandalf. Not so.

[Don Marshall]

But Denethor, as can be obviously seen in the Return of the King, not a fan of Gandalf. And once he became steward, Gandalf was, let's just say, less welcome.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly.

[Don Marshall]

And it does kind of make some. Some folks wonder since Denethor was in factory, wise and farsighted. Maybe he discovered who Thoringil was and believed that, oh, maybe there was a plot to remove him and bring this Aragorn, son of Arathorn. And I tell you now, I will not bow to this Ranger from the north into the Kingship Sorry, I.

[Alan Sisto]

Line long bereft of lordship.

[Don Marshall]

Oh, we blacked out there for a second. Quoting the movie.

[Alan Sisto]

It happens. It happens. But quoting the books, in that case, I love it when the. When the movies quote the books, that's when it shines the most. Right?

[Don Marshall]

It's a beautiful thing.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, this whole idea about Denethor rejecting Thorongil and being opposed to his possible elevation of the kingship goes back to that line we read earlier. It was impossible that any king should return, Tolkien wrote, unless he were a descendant of Elendil from Isildur, not Anarion. But from Pelendur onwards, the ruling stewards were determined not to receive any such claimant, but to remain supreme rulers of Gondor. So, yeah, if he even suspected that Thorongil was of the line of Isildur, he was going to be very strongly opposed to his presence, even in Gondor. But how would he have discovered. I mean, look, here's the thing we know about Denethor later. He did, of course, use the Palantir and learned many things from it, but that was something he started doing only after he was steward. He wouldn't have had the authority or even the access to the palantir until after he became steward. And yet this hostility towards Thorongil happened when he was still not steward. Right. When Ecthelion was steward and Denethor just clearly didn't like this guy. What do we think happened that might have caused him to learn the truth about Thorongil's identity?

[Don Marshall]

So I will potentially liken this to a Game of Thrones comparison, if you'll bear with me for a moment.

[Alan Sisto]

Sure. And I'll have to probably just nod my head, you know, somewhat knowingly, or.

[Don Marshall]

Pretend it's a Season one reference where someone's hair color is mentioned as being a dominant trait in that family line. That is when you discover that the person that is on the throne is not actually of the sort of bloodline of that king. So my. My guess, because, you know, DNA tests, try as we might, don't exist in Middle Earth, at least as far as I know. So it's essentially a world word of mouth and a power thing. But for me, it almost feels as though Denethor is making either an educated guess or just straight up doesn't like him. Now, obviously, Thor and Gill being Aragorn, he's trying to avoid that kin strife. So I see this as a kind of hostile, tense moment where not everything might be said out in the open, because obviously Aragorn didn't reveal himself but you know when you just like stare at someone for long enough and the. There's that, you know, that Weird Al song. And he looks at me and I look at him.

[Alan Sisto]

He looks at me, Weird Al.

[Don Marshall]

And I look at him. I just imagine this staring contest maybe like at the dinner table one night or a couch.

[Alan Sisto]

About the staring contest between Denor and Gandalf that we read about in, in the Lord of the Rings and, and Pippen's like, I. It's almost like seeing fire go between their eyes, right? I mean there is a perception. Oh, maybe that's what it is. Think about this. We've noticed before and actually there is something mentioned here about Denethor being able to read men. Think about Faramir and how incredibly perceptive he was. He was able to determine things and figure things out long before anybody said anything. Right? He just sort of didn't read your mind per se. But he was very.

[Don Marshall]

It's an intuition.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Very good at perceiving the truth. Denethor shared that same trait again because the blood of Numenor ran mostly true in both of them. Them. I think that might have had something to do with it. Like he wouldn't have known for sure, but it was an educated guess. I mean, after all, if you're already tall and kingly and valiant and wise and all these things and yet you encounter somebody who's maybe a little taller, maybe a little more valiant, maybe a little more kingly and a little more wise, you think to yourself, I know the blood of Numenor runs pretty true in me. Oh man, I think it might run true in him. And. But guess what? He doesn't have a beard. So that's a great point.

[Don Marshall]

Oh, you know what, you know what I'm thinking of now? There's, there's probably a moment where Thorongil Aragorn is walking by past some tapestry and the steward and Denethor are there too. And someone points out, huh, Thorongil. Elendil looks just like you. Wait a minute, hang on.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Yeah, that might have been it. I like that. I like that.

[Don Marshall]

Folks, we are going to make like Thorongil and take a little break. Break from where we were to go do an ad read.

[Alan Sisto]

There you go. We're not going to Mordor. It's the new year, so it's time to start turning your resolutions into reality. Now I know for me that means getting back to the gym after a rough year, fitness wise and well, without getting too blunt, that also means trying to smell better and there's a resolution we could all use. I've been using Mando. It's a whole body deodorant. I've been using it for a few weeks now and I've really been happy with, well, with smelling better. Mando is a whole body deodorant, so you don't just use it on your armpits. Any place on your body that could use a bit of odor control. You can use Mando there. Yes, there too. It's proven to block and control odors all day, even in this tiny podcast booth. And it's available in solid stick spray or even cream. Now, personally, I like the pro sport scent, but bourbon leather is pretty nice too. Now, as a special offer for our listeners, new customers get $5 off a starter pack with our exclusive code. Now that equates to over 40% off your starter pack. Use code [e-mail] S H O P M A N D O.com Please support our show and tell them we sent you smell fresher, stay drier and boost your confidence with Mando. Now folks, if you're enjoying the ppp, please consider supporting the show by joining the Fellowship of the Podcast. It's what gives me the time and the resources to work on making this show better every season and hopefully every episode. I don't know. You be the judge when you join.

[Don Marshall]

You're doing great.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, I don't know, it's going to get better next episode because Matt's coming in and you're take it.

[Don Marshall]

Wow.

[Alan Sisto]

See what I did there?

[Don Marshall]

I do see what you did there. You see how I'm scooting back out.

[Alan Sisto]

Of the door and now I'm the rest of this episode. No.

[Don Marshall]

Good luck.

[Alan Sisto]

Anyway, folks, really, truly your support is what gives me the ability to work on this show as hard as I do. And when you join, you get the best discord community around. That includes live episodes, hangouts every month. You also get episode post scripts which are a ton of fun. You get an ad, free episode feed, free merch and more.

[Don Marshall]

You can also become part of our Questions After Nightfall episodes. You can even join us as a guest in the north wing. So Please go to patreon.com prancingponypod to show your support, to give Alan money and more importantly, to give Alan money so he can give me money to join him as a guest host on this podcast. Make sure you join the Fellowship of the Podcast right?

[Alan Sisto]

Well folks, you can always help us out. Also also by giving us a rating and review on Apple podcasts and giving us a rating on Spotify. And please, please recommend us to your friends. Speaking of friends, Don, it's time for you to talk about the rule of Denethor.

[Don Marshall]

Denethor had married late2976, taking as his wife Finduilas, daughter of Adrael of Dole Amroth. She was a lady of great beauty and gentle heart. But before 12 years had passed, she died. Denethor loved her in his fashion more dearly than any other unless it were the elder of his sons that she bore him. But it seemed to men that she withered in the guarded city as a flower of a seaward veil set upon a barren rock. The shadow in the east filled her with horror and she turned her eyes ever south to the sea that she missed. After her death, Denethor became more grim and silent than before and would sit long alone in his tower, deep in thought, foreseeing that the assault of Mordor would come. In his time, it was afterwards believed that needing knowledge but being proud and trusting in his own strength of will, he dared to look in the palantir of the White Tower. None of the stewards had dared to do this, nor even the kings Earnil and Eardor. After the fall of Minas Ithil, when the palantir of Isildur came into the hands of the enemy, for the stone of Minas Tirith was the palantir of Anarion most close in accord with the one that Sauron possessed. In this way, Denethor gained his great knowledge of things that passed in his realm and far beyond his borders at which men marveled. But he bought the knowledge dearly, being aged before his time by his contest with the will of Sauron. Thus pride increased in Denethor, together with despair until he saw in all the deeds of that time only a single combat between the Lord of the White Tower and the Lord of Barad Dur and mistrusted all others who resisted Sauron unless they served himself alone.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, man, that is so telling. That is so telling.

[Don Marshall]

It's tragic, too. It really is.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. And it's one of those things that Sauron's looking to do, right? I mean, he knows that fighting a united front is going to be much more difficult. So, you know, if he can get Denethor to be isolated and trust nobody else, even if they are on the side of good, well, that's going to accomplish a lot. But going back to the beginning, actually before the beginning and a couple of lines we skipped, we learned that Denethor became steward in 2984. And as we might guess, he ruled in his own particular idiom, sir. He micromanaged. And that's actually how I read holding the rule of all things in his own hand. The guy didn't want to delegate. Right. That's how I'm doing that.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, yeah. He wanted to do everything himself. Yeah. He didn't talk much. And while he listened to advice, he did basically whatever he thought he should do. Not really following any guidance.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. That actually makes me think of what we learn about Feanor. Do you remember this line? Few ever changed his courses by counsel, none by force.

[Don Marshall]

Well, there was that one Balrog.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, yeah, changed.

[Don Marshall]

We don't talk about that.

[Alan Sisto]

Changed his mind about living, actually. Yeah, yeah. There's a little bit of Feanor in him. Right? The pride, the sitting long alone in his tower, deep in thought. I definitely get some vibes there. But for sure, you know, picking up where you read, Don. We read about Denethor's marriage to Finduilas, the daughter of the then prince of Dolamroth, Adrahil. And I want to look briefly at this tragically short timeline.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah. So at the time he married Finduilas in 2976, the text said he married late. He was 46, she was 26. He was also not yet steward, as we read earlier, coming into that office in1984. So that is eight years after he was married.

[Alan Sisto]

Right. Now, she was the daughter of the then Prince of Dol, Amroth, Adrahil, and the brother of Imrahil, who would become the prince himself much later in 3010. And it was only two years into their marriage that Boromir was born. So 2978, five years after that, in 2983, Faramir was born.

[Don Marshall]

A year after Faramir's birth, Denethor becomes Steward. This is in the year 2984. Then four years later, in 2988, Finduilas dies at only the age of 38. Faramir is 5, Boromir is 10.

[Alan Sisto]

And. And 38 is very young for her lineage. I mean, her grandfather died at 111 years old, her father at 93. Her brother Imrahil will die when he's 100. So very long lived. Bloodline. Yeah.

[Don Marshall]

As for Finduilas herself, we are told that she was both very beautiful and gentle, but, and I. I love how Tolkien uses this word. She withered in Minas Tir, mist of the sea. She was filled with horror, living basically on Mordor's doorstep and under that constant shadow of Mordor.

[Alan Sisto]

And speaking of somebody who was born and raised in California, not coastal. I didn't live on the coast. But I will tell you, I don't know that I could live inland, you know, that I could go and live in a state far away from the ocean. There's something about the sea and being near the sea, I would miss it dearly. Yeah, I would wither. But I'm also well past her age. She died at 38. I passed that long ago. That's, that's in that objects may appear closer than they appear. Side mirror there.

[Don Marshall]

Maybe that's why some of the elves are so scared to hear the sea. Because they know as soon as they get to that Caribbean beach style vacation thing, they're like, oh, I've been living the wrong life. Undying Lands, here I come.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm wondering if Tol Erasea is just an all inclusive resort, really. That, that's the problem. You know, I'm reminded as we talk about Findu Lass, I'm reminded of the cloak that Faramir gave to Eowyn that was actually made for Finduilas. And we read this in the Steward and the King. They were clad in warm raiment and heavy cloaks. And over all the Lady Eowyn wore a great blue mantle of the color of deep summer night, and it was set with silver stars about hem and throat. Faramir had sent for this robe and had wrapped it about her, and he thought that she looked fair and queenly indeed as she stood there at his side. The mantle was wrought for his mother, Finduilas of Amroth, who died untimely and was to him but a memory of loveliness in far days and of his first grief. And her robe seemed to him raiment fitting for the beauty and sadness of Eowyn.

[Don Marshall]

I love that.

[Alan Sisto]

The beauty and sadness.

[Don Marshall]

I do love the word raiment here because raiment is sort of something that we hear the Valar carving themselves in a raiment. And here it almost seems to be like some sort of protection of, of or, or like a sigil of her. Her beauty and potentially also her sadness.

[Alan Sisto]

I like that combination of beauty and sadness. I feel like there's a lot of that in Tolkien, right? I mean, I think about tears and how, you know, the, the two together are always so poignant. And in this case, of course, for, for Fatimir. He doesn't remember his mother. She was five when she died. Yeah, I don't remember anything. Well, I'm Probably a bad example. I don't remember anything from before I was, like, 12. Right. But I know people can remember when they were little. But he wouldn't have very specific or very clear memories of her. Almost certainly.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah. And I think a lot of that might come from the relationship that he has with his father with Denethor, because it is clear from the text, to me at least, Denethor did genuinely love her, but in his own particular way, as. As told Keane mentions. So maybe not more so, though, than Boromir. So Faramir is seeing this. This sort of love that Denethor is capable of. It's just not necessarily directed at him or potentially his mother.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. I mean, you know, he did. Denethor did love, find loss in his way, but, you know, certainly Faramir, not so much. Right. Faramir says, you know, my father sent me a get well card. Boromir's like, oh, really? That's kind of him. Faramir's, I wasn't sick. He just wanted me to get better. That's just so terrible. I mean, father of the year award stuff right there.

[Don Marshall]

Oh, my goodness, that is. You know, I feel like Denethor tells a really cruel dad joke every now and then just to really.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Don Marshall]

Rub it in there. Yeah. Oh, my God.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Knife in the back sort of stuff. Yeah, yeah.

[Don Marshall]

Speaking of more tragic stuff.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Don Marshall]

As Finduilas dies, this tragedy continues to sort of weigh on Denethor. And this leads him to become more and more, you know, quiet, unapproachable, and almost downright grim.

[Alan Sisto]

Totally grim. Right. But some of that grimness came before her death, as we'll see later. Now, we often give Denethor a hard time, and rightly so. We would do well, though, to remember that he was more learned in lore than any steward for many generations. We find that in heirs of Lendil and peoples of Middle Earth. And of course, as we've talked about before, four, in the Lord of the Rings, we learned that the blood of Westerness runs nearly true in him. So keep that in mind. He is still an incredibly noble and wise person.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah. And even with all of this Numenorean wisdom, this very learned man makes a very fateful choice that essentially changes the course of everything. To look into the Palantir of the White Tower. Even though probably for good reason, none of the stewards had ever made an attempt to do this. Even though none of the stewards had ever made an attempt to do this.

[Alan Sisto]

Right. And they did have the authority to do that. Right. I Mean, we know that they had all the authority of the kings and the kings did have the authority to use the Palantir. And in fact, we read later on that the only reason he was even able to use this palantir successfully to some extent was because he had the right legal and moral authority to use it, unlike Saruman, who may have had more power but didn't have the right to use it anyway. That's a bit of a digression. The last two kings, by the way of Gondor, also didn't look into the stone. But there's a reason for that. They knew that its closest stone, the one that it was closest in accord with, I'm picturing them now on the passenger seat of a Honda Accord and they're just next to each other, that that stone was now in the hands of the enemy. And the last thing they wanted was to be looking into the face of Sauron. So they knew better because that stone was in the face, possession of Mordor. Now, sure, using the Palantir gave Denor some useful intelligence, but it came at a very, very high price. He was aged before his time, which I'm feeling called out, but it increased his pride and despair as well.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah. So while the ppp I know you are going to look into the chapter in Unfinished Tales on the Palantir, that's going to be basically at length next season. You find out how they work, what they did, what they did not do. And you guys are, I assume, just gonna find out way more about how Denethor used it.

[Alan Sisto]

And I don't even know who it's gonna be. It might even be you that comes back next season on the Palantir. I don't know where that's going to come in the the season yet. I, I, I do roadmap, but I only roadmap one season at a time. Thank you very much. My hiatus for.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, I love it.

[Alan Sisto]

So in the chapter the Pyre of Denethor, Gandalf says that in the days of his wisdom, Denethor would not presume to use it to challenge Sauron, knowing the limits of his own strength.

[Don Marshall]

But right after that, Gandalf points out Denethor's wisdom failed him and that he must have looked into the stone and then been tricked. But Christopher Tolkien, chiming in in Unfinished Tales, points out that Gandalf should have been reported as saying that he did not think Denethor had presumed to use it until his wisdom failed.

[Alan Sisto]

Right. I mean, after all, Gandalf could not have known for certain, because Denethor's use of the Stone was, quote, a matter of conjecture. And we go on to learn in that Unfinished Tales bit that it is probable considering Denethor and what is said about him, that he began to use the Anor Stone many years before 3019 and earlier than Sodom and ventured or thought it useful to use the Stone of Orthanc.

[Don Marshall]

I've always liked that conception that that sort of thing has happened because that, that moment that we get of Ungoliant and it is said that she devoured herself in her hunger. And these tales and legends and you know, they're spooky ghost stories in universe, but I think Tolkien is certainly dropping a few hints there, at least in my reading of it.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I agree as well.

[Don Marshall]

As this sort of goes on, we're reminded of some of the traits of Denethor. Not just that wisdom, that learnedness, but the fact that he is, he is strong willed. He's also very, you know, confident in his own power and for a good reason. He's very dauntless. But then later it seems fairly plain that he had at once turned to the stone as soon as he came to power, having long studied the matter of the Palantir and the traditions regarding them and their use preserved in the special archives of the Stewards.

[Alan Sisto]

Now why would he do that? Well, the text tells us that too in the latter years of his father's rule. Rule as steward, Denethor is said to have greatly desired to consult the Stone. And guess why we talked about this earlier? Because of the fame of Thorongil and the favor shown to him by his father.

[Don Marshall]

Oh, is it now a self fulfilling prophecy that does. Does Aragorn not showing up cause Denethor to not look into the Palantir, to then not fall into dark darkness and to rule as Steward and potentially welcome Aragorn?

[Alan Sisto]

That's an interesting notion. Like if he doesn't. Mmm. Like if Thorongil had not shown up or had left a lot earlier, before.

[Don Marshall]

He really got Denethor's back, hadn't made.

[Alan Sisto]

The impact, I still think Denethor would have eventually looked. It's just that this text tells us that he looked really early on. Like as soon as he became Steward, he at once turned the stone primarily because of the fame of Thorongil. So maybe he holds off and doesn't go until later, but either way he's going to end up with the despair and the pride and he's going to be locked in the way, the way Sauron intends.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, it's going to be a really bad time. But that's just like what I would do if I were ever elected president. I'm immediately going to Area 50.

[Alan Sisto]

Voluntary. Yeah, yeah. This Elf stone is your president.

[Don Marshall]

Plainly put, at least one of his motives must have been jealousy of Thor Gil and hostility to Gandalf, to whom, during the ascendancy of Thorongil, his father paid much attention. Denethor desired to surpass these usurpers in knowledge and information and also, if possible, to keep an eye on them when they were elsewhere, which is one of.

[Alan Sisto]

The powers of the Palantir. And again, though, that comes at the cost of great strain. And this, this is sad. A footnote to this section gives us the heartbreaking punchline of this whole bit. The use of the palantiri was a mental strain, especially on men of later days not trained to the task. And no doubt, in addition to his anxieties, this strain contributed to Denethor's grimness. It was probably felt earlier by his wife than by others, and increased her unhappiness to the hastening of her death.

[Don Marshall]

Oh, what was that I said about twisting the knife?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, this is tragic. Denethor's use of the palantir changes his personality. Right. Adds this strain, this stress that she feels more closely than anybody else, leading to her premature death. His use of the palantir can be connected to her early death.

[Don Marshall]

I almost want to call this cliche because, like, the bad guy using the thing to save this is basically Walter White. But in Meanest Tirith, maybe I'm using all of this knowledge and power to save us and save our family, and then all of a sudden it's accidentally killed my wife.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Oh, man, that's bad.

[Don Marshall]

So not quite Breaking Bad, but, you know, we're, we're, we're getting there.

[Alan Sisto]

Breaking Palantir. Yeah. This is, it's so sad. I mean, that Finduilas life ends early because of the strain in her marriage to Denethor, precisely because of his use of the stone, which comes back to his jealousy of Thorongil.

[Don Marshall]

Wow, it's so weird. If I had a nickel for any. Every time a male character in a Lord of the Rings sort of story had a stone that he was kind of obsessed with, that had a huge problem on his entire life, especially his marriage, I'd have a few more nickels than I think you'd care to admit.

[Alan Sisto]

But you wouldn't be rich. But it is weird that it happens so often.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's Happened a lot anyway, tragedy or no. At the end, this extended use of the stone basically leads Denethor to not trust anyone else on his side of the fight unless they are serving him directly.

[Alan Sisto]

That's the thing, he doesn't care. He doesn't trust even Rohan. He doesn't trust anybody.

[Don Marshall]

You know what I trust, Alan?

[Alan Sisto]

What do you trust?

[Don Marshall]

I trust that you are going to read the next.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, of course I will. It's a short one, but it's beautiful. And it wraps up the whole section on the stewards.

[Don Marshall]

Let's do it.

[Alan Sisto]

So time drew on to the war of the Ring and the sons of Denethor grew to manhood. Boromir, five years the elder, beloved by his father, was like him in face and pride but in little else. Rather, he was a man after the sort of king earnur of old taking no wife and delighting chiefly in arms fearless and strong, but caring little for lore save the tales of old battles. Faramir the Younger was like him in looks, but otherwise in mind. He read the hearts of men as shrewdly as his father. But what he read moved him sooner to pity than to scorn. He was gentle in bearing and a lover of lore and of music. And therefore by many in those days his courage was judged less than his brother's. But it was not so except that he did not seek glory in danger without a purpose. He welcomed Gandalf at such times as he came to the city and he learned what he could from his wisdom. And in this, as in many other matters he displeased his father. Yet between the brothers there was great love and had been since childhood when Boromir was the helper and protector of Faramir. No jealousy or rivalry had arisen between them since for their father's favor or for the praise of Men. It did not seem possible to Faramir that anyone in Gondor could rival Boromir heir of Denethor, captain of the White Tower. And of like mind was Boromir. Yet it proved otherwise at the test. But of all that befell these three in the War of the Ring much is said elsewhere and after the war the days of the ruling stewards came to an end for the heir of Isildur and Anarion returned and the kingship was renewed and the standard of the White Tree flew once more from the Tower of Eelon.

[Don Marshall]

And here it comes to an end. I will not say, do not weep because, man, if there's going to be a final steward of Gondor Faramir Is.

[Alan Sisto]

That guy so glad I know. Love it.

[Don Marshall]

Love it so much. Thankfully we get this passage not without mention his brother Boromir, who is of course would have become the ruling steward. I personally think he would have made a wonderful.

[Alan Sisto]

He would have done. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean again, once he realized what his error. You know, when you look at the Boromir who died at Parth gallon, you're right. This is a guy who would have ended up going on to become a good. A good steward.

[Don Marshall]

I'll have to write another fan fiction. What if TTRPG series, don't I?

[Alan Sisto]

What if he survived, learned his lesson, took that humility and went on to lead Gondora steward and he was the one.

[Don Marshall]

Possibilities are endless. Alan. Yeah, do so much.

[Alan Sisto]

So while Boromir looked like Denethor and had the same pride, he was really just not like him at all in anything else. And it makes sense, right? We remember that line about the blood of Numenor running nearly true in Denethor and Faramir, but not Boromir, which is interesting genetics, I guess. So, you know, he wasn't learned caring little for lore. He was focused on feats of arms. And that was a lot like Earnur. That's less of a problem here. We gave Arnor a little bit of a hard time because being, quote, rather a champion than a captain or king is fine when you're not a king. You know, when you're the son of the steward and not the king, it's perfectly fine to be like that.

[Don Marshall]

Yep, totally fine. Although if he'd become the steward, probably would have been a much bigger problem.

[Alan Sisto]

You sort of don't want to just be a. A champion. You want to be a leader. And I'm, you know, he would have been fine as that eventually. But the focus in this section though, of course is on Faramir. He's the younger son who would become the ruling steward, even if only for a few weeks. From March 15, the date of his father's passing, to May 1, the date of Aragorn's coronation.

[Don Marshall]

Now, he looked like Denethor, but was basically completely different from him in terms of character.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes.

[Don Marshall]

He had the same incredible perceptive ability. He's got a very high perception check.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, he's put bonuses into that. He's rolling advantage every time.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, for sure. I love this quote. Read the hearts of men as shrewdly as his father.

[Alan Sisto]

And that kind of brings us back to what we talked about with Denethor perceiving who Thorongil was. It's the same thing. They both can read the hearts of men very shrewdly.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, yeah. But this was a man that showed. And I love this pity rather than contempt.

[Alan Sisto]

It's so beautiful. And it's such a lesson from Tolkien. I mean, if there's anything that we learn about, well, about ourselves and what we need to take from the Lord of the Rings, it's. It's having pity. You think about the power of pity. I think about the times in Athelian going back to his ability to read people, when Faramir was always a few steps ahead of Frodo and Sam in their conversation, sort of playing 40 chess. Like I said, you know, they're playing checkers and he's like moves ahead of them. Yeah, yeah.

[Don Marshall]

But Faramir is explicitly described as gentle in bearing, just like his mother. Finduilas had been described as having a gentle heart. And also unlike Boromir, he was a big nerd. I'm just kidding. He was a lot like me. He was, yeah. He was known as a lover of.

[Alan Sisto]

Lore and even feels like a direct call out. He was definitely one of us. I love that, that connection though, with his mother. Gentle and bearing and gentlemen heart. There's not an accident in the use of the word gentle there. I really love that. Now, we did read about Denethor in the Heirs of Elendil, that he was more learned in lore than any steward for many generations. But this idea that, that Faramir is a lover of lore feels different. Right. He loves the lore because he understands its importance and its inherent value. Denethor, it's never mentioned that he loved the lore, just that he was more learned. And that's because I suspect that for him it was about the knowledge and the power that the Lord could give to him as opposed to the value inherent in the lore.

[Don Marshall]

It's, it's almost reminding me of that quote, if you see a beautiful flower you love, don't pick it, just let it stay there because that's its place and natural. Something about the, the seeing something and appreciating it for what it is, what.

[Alan Sisto]

It is, for where it belongs, for the role that it plays, for its significance into itself.

[Don Marshall]

And he who breaks a thing to see what is inside has left the path of wisdom.

[Alan Sisto]

There you go.

[Don Marshall]

And, and don't we have kind of a direct comparison here for, you know, this guy who wants to break everything in Denethor and someone who would rather just say, okay, let's let it be. Let's let these little halflings go on their mission. That's not any of my business. Let's go save the world and just. All right, then, let it happen. Now, because of this love for his lore and music as well, combined with his very gentle bearing and the tendency of pity, he was often seen, I would say, incorrectly.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yeah.

[Don Marshall]

As less courageous than Boromir.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. And we see a tiny bit of that in part of this quote from the window on the West, Faramir himself saying, though we still hold that a warrior should have more skills and knowledge than only the craft of weapons and slaying, we esteem a warrior nonetheless above men of other crafts. Such is the need of our days. So even was my brother Boromir a man of prowess, and for that he was accounted the best man in Gondor and very valiant indeed. He was. No heir of Minas Tirith has for long years been so hardy in toil so onward into battle or blown a mightier note on the great horn. But yeah, because of that, he was accounted the best man in Gondor.

[Don Marshall]

That's what he needed to do to survive and to have his people see him as a leader. That line that says he didn't see glory and danger without. Without a purpose. Kind of reminding me of the. The war must be while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all. But I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend the city of men of Numenor. And I would have her loved for her memory, her ancientry, her beauty and her present wisdom.

[Alan Sisto]

I.

[Don Marshall]

That's one of my favorite Tolkien quotes of all time.

[Alan Sisto]

Absolutely. That is top five, top ten for sure. Best quotes in all of the legendarium. It's absolutely.

[Don Marshall]

It's so quintessentially Tolkien. It just encompass.

[Alan Sisto]

If.

[Don Marshall]

If I were to show anyone a quote that says, what's J.R.R. tolkien's thing? Well, I like him. If I like fantasy stuff, here's all of your characters, your themes, your everything, some summed up in one. There is fighting, there is war, there is glory.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. This sums up Tolkien being a man of antithesis, right? He's able to reconcile these two truths that, you know, when you're faced with somebody like Sauron, war has to take place. This. We don't have an option to be pacifist in the face of Sauron, but that doesn't mean we have to love the weapons and the war and all of these things. We love the Warrior. But we don't love the warrior for his glory. We love what the warrior defends. And that's such a deep and important truth in a time of war, in a time of unavoidable war like that. And you think about what war meant to Tolkien and the experience of war and how much he despised the experience of war. I mean, you know, this was a man who lost nearly all of his friends in World War I. This was a man whose son was injured in World War II and whose other son was called into service and was in the role Royal Air Force. This is, you know, war is terrifying to him in this sense. His sons are involved. He doesn't want them to have to be involved. But he knows in that context, certainly both in. In both those times, war must be less so in World War I than in World War II. World War I is just war had to be. Because we had a bunch of alliances and, well, we signed this and now we gotta jump in here, even though we really have no beef with you. World War II was different. You know, talk about war having to be stopping the. The. A force like Hitler from dominating all of Europe and taking over every country. You've got to stand up, you got to fight the bully. You might not want to. You might not want war, but what else are you going to do?

[Don Marshall]

And basically get taken over.

[Alan Sisto]

And I think that is learn German very quickly. Yeah, yeah.

[Don Marshall]

Like, do you value your freedom, Faramir? Do you value your freedom, Boromir Hobbitz? Long has my father protected your land and all of that. This is like, we have had to do this to survive. I love that.

[Alan Sisto]

But even though we have to fight, we don't have to love the weaponry, we don't have to love the fighting for its own sake. Instead, we love what those things protect, what they defend. The city of the men of Numenor. And ah, I. Faramir is so on the nose with this. And I just. You're right, it is one of the most Tolkienian quotes in the legendarium. I love it.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

So we're also told that Faramir welcomed and learned from Gandalf because Faramir, of course, being wise now, that alone would have earned him his father's wrath. Because Denethor was convinced that Gandalf and Thorangil were seeking to usurp his power back in the day.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, that line earlier this episode. But from Pelendor onwards, the ruling stewards were determined not to receive any such claimant, but to receive, remain supreme rulers of Gondor.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. So from his perspective, what Gandalf was doing. No, I'm not going to let that happen. So, yeah, he despised Gandalf, so that alone would have put Faramir on his bad side. But we all know how Denethor treated him. It's this final paragraph I love. Despite the fact that Denethor not only favored Boromir, but genuinely disfavored Faramir, the two brothers really, deeply, genuinely loved each other. They both held the other in high regard. There was no one could rival my brother. I just, Yeah, I don't have any siblings, so I can't quite identify with it. But I absolutely love that, that little bit about Boromir being the helper and protector of Faramir. You realize Boromir was 10 when his mother died, but Faramir was 5. That role that Boromir would have to take on so heavy. Such a big responsibility for such a little guy.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah. And that's, that's why I give Boromir so much grace when so many people just label him the villain. He. He is a truly tragic character. That's that scene in the extended edition with the Peter Jackson films, the. With Boromir celebrating, retaking.

[Alan Sisto]

I love that scene.

[Don Marshall]

That camaraderie is just there. It's visible on screen. And just g. I, I wish, honest to God, I do kind of wish Tolkien had written more prequels about things like that that I would love some sort of, like, give us more about what was going on in Gondor during that time.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, you're right. I love that. I mean, I think about how we just read this stuff about Kyrian and Aoral a few sections ago and it's very short, but we know that he fleshed that out in the. The Tale of Kyrian and Aoral and Unfinished Tales. Yeah, I want all of these things fleshed out. I want to know all of these words. I want to know about those twin sons of the, of the, of the King of Rohan who died. I want to know all about that. I want to know all about Boromir and Faramir as young kids growing up in Gondor. Just all of those things. It's just fantastic. But yeah, I did absolutely love that scene with Boromir and Faramir just loving on each other after the, the recapture of Osgilia. Yeah, fantastic.

[Don Marshall]

Great moment. So we are brought now, Allan, to the end of the line of ruling stewards who guided Gondor for nearly a thousand years until one of their kings decided to Have a one versus one fight with a nine foot tall Demon Lord guy?

[Alan Sisto]

Pretty much.

[Don Marshall]

Arnor, you're not doing great. Minas Morgul's not that good of a place, my friend.

[Alan Sisto]

Don't go there.

[Don Marshall]

No, don't go there, ever.

[Alan Sisto]

So, the heir of Isildur returning and renewing the kingship. I love that line at the very end about the kingship being renewed. That renewal. That's not an accidental word choice here in the appendix. Remember that one of the names that Aragorn took was Envinatar, and that's Quenya for the Renewer. So again, Tolkien using his words very carefully. And that picture at the end of the Flag of the Kings, that standard of the White Tree that I read about earlier. Earlier. You know, the black flag with the tree in blossom, the stars and the crown that's flying again over Minas Tirith instead of the simple plain white standard of the Stewards. I will say, though, of course, this is interesting. I actually caught. Not so much an error, but I should clarify the last line. The Standard of the White Tree flew once more from the Tower of Ecthelion. The Standard of the White Tree never flew from the Tower of Ecthelion because it was built during the stewardship of Ecthelion.

[Don Marshall]

Oh, my God.

[Alan Sisto]

I just caught that as I was reading it. I'm like, it wouldn't have flown from that, right? Because it's only been around for a few hundred years in comparison to the last time a king was there. But it did fly from atop whatever. Something above.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, yeah. Whatever was there.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. It's just a nice little pedantic note. I do a lot of pedantic notes. Speaking of which, this is not a mailbag segue, but just a quick line for you. What? What did the steward Boromir say to his successor?

[Don Marshall]

What?

[Alan Sisto]

Kirion, my wayward son.

[Don Marshall]

Oh, my God, you're gonna make you do the rest of this podcast alone.

[Alan Sisto]

You're welcome. Anyway, it did not seem possible to Bob and Nob that anyone in Bree could rival Barliman Butterbur, Heir of the Pony, Captain of the Mailbag. Don, what does Barliman have for us tonight?

[Don Marshall]

Captain of the Mailbag. I want that on, like, big block letters on the door outside. Outside, whatever office.

[Alan Sisto]

Captain of the Mailbag. That's right.

[Don Marshall]

Oh, yes. So today we have a question from Tina from Colorado.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay.

[Don Marshall]

She asks. I noticed in the appendices that there is more than one Den of Thor and more than one Boromir. Obviously, in real world history, names often get repeated all of the time.

[Alan Sisto]

Henry VII was the eighth of his name. Yes, exactly.

[Don Marshall]

We got a lot of Henry's. Did Tolkien ever give a reason for these repeated names? And are there any examples that show up?

[Alan Sisto]

Meaning, I assume, additional examples that show up, actually. Oh, this would be a very long show if we talked about all the examples of the names that show up. I'm thinking immediately of Legolas.

[Don Marshall]

Yes. So I, I, I have gone into great detail over this, Alan, and I'm wondering if you can comment.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm just gonna. Yeah, I'll sit back and let you. Let the man cook.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, this because, because as you have so often done with words, I find names very fascinating. So you gave this to me. I'm like, oh, okay, hang on. More than one Denor. Let me see.

[Alan Sisto]

Let's dive in. All right, do it.

[Don Marshall]

Christopher Tolkien gives a wonderful quote that is almost kind of a clarification of his father's work. He says years later, long after the publication of the Lord of the Rings, he's talking about Glorfindel in this passage. My father gave a great deal of thought to the matter of Glorfindel, and at that time he wrote, the use of Glorfindel in the Lord of the Rings is one of the cases of the somewhat random use of the names found in the older legends, now referred to as the Silmarillion, which escaped reconsideration. In the final published form of the Lord of the Rings, he came to the conclusion that Glorfindel of Gondolin, who fell to his death in combat with the Balrog after the sack of the city, and Glorfindel of Rivendell were one and the same. He was released from Mandos and returned to Middle Earth in the Second Age. I just thought that was very interesting because, you know, we, we think of Tolkien having all of these inner workings and plots and plans, but also being slightly disjointed. Here he is saying, well, didn't really even consider the use of those names and had to come up with, with reasons afterwards. So that Glorfindel being the same person.

[Alan Sisto]

Retconning.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, yeah, because we are also retconning, in a way, characters like Legolas. Legolas was originally a member of the House of the Tree. He was one of Galdor's scouts. He escapes from the fall of Gondolin and is with the survivors, leads them across. I believe it's Chris Thorne. And then after the First Age, sort of goes over to Tol Erasea, which I, when I was first reading the Silmarilli, And I. I did not catch this. I assumed that that was Legolas. And then he came back and I just wrongly assumed that seeing these elves have the same name. However, we would go by the name. He would go by the name. Not Legolas anymore.

[Alan Sisto]

It is.

[Don Marshall]

And I'm going to pronounce this incorrectly. So I'm throwing it in the chat for Allan to show me up.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay.

[Don Marshall]

Because it is. It looks as though it's a beautiful name. I just don't know what it is.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, there's no. No U. Like alas. Like alas.

[Don Marshall]

L, A, I, Q, A, L, A, S, E. With the over the E. Lass. So that is the. The sort of new version of Legolas's name. Not the Legolas from the trilogy, who is a separate.

[Alan Sisto]

Legolas was from Gondolin. Interesting. I didn't even remember that. That's such a deep cut, Don.

[Don Marshall]

I didn't get this nickname for no reason, Allan.

[Alan Sisto]

Obscure.

[Don Marshall]

Obscure. Lord of the Rings. Facts, Guy.

[Alan Sisto]

The question is whether that adjective applies to the facts or to the guy.

[Don Marshall]

Porque no los dos. Now, I want to just make sure that we're all on the same page here with some names. So, Alan, if it's all right with you I kind of took a deep dive into names that show up more than once, if you don't mind.

[Alan Sisto]

Just in the house of the stewards alone. You've got. I mean, because you've got Turin and you got Baron and you got Baragon and Ecthelion and Ecthelion and Ecthelion and you've got. Yeah, keep going.

[Don Marshall]

You're halfway down the list. I have it all, of course.

[Alan Sisto]

Tell me more. Tell me more.

[Don Marshall]

We. We've got, of course, the two Denethors, the Steward of Gondor. Gondor. Also steward of Gondor in the Third Age. Also one of the Elf chieftains. One of the original Elf chieftains of Gondor. That's the Sylvan Elves and the Green Elves of the Teleri.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[Don Marshall]

You also have, I think, three or four different Ecthelions. There is Ecthelion of the Fountain, Right.

[Alan Sisto]

He's the one I think of first. Right?

[Don Marshall]

I mean, you kill a Balrog.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah. You get top billing when you kill a Balrog. Yeah.

[Don Marshall]

There's not much more you can do besides that. And then we have.

[Alan Sisto]

Excuse me, it's three.

[Don Marshall]

It's Ecthelion the First and Ecthelion the Second. Those are both stewards. So we've had one Ecthelion. What about second? Ecthelion we also have.

[Alan Sisto]

I always found that Joker to the.

[Don Marshall]

Ground on every single time. We also have something that I found very interesting. The name Gothmog appears twice.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes. I love that name. This is.

[Don Marshall]

This is one of those names that I did. It's so epic. I didn't think Tolkien would reuse it, but Gothmog is both. A commander of Sauron's army during the battle of Pelor Fields. We do not learn of. Of sort of what happens to this.

[Alan Sisto]

No, we don't. We don't even know what he is. And I have some.

[Don Marshall]

We do not.

[Alan Sisto]

Some fascinating, you know, shall we say head cannon on that.

[Don Marshall]

Absolutely. We also have Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs and high captain of Angman. He died during the. The fall of Gon.

[Alan Sisto]

Right, of course.

[Don Marshall]

So.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, man, there are so.

[Don Marshall]

So to answer your question, Tina, yes, there are many real world examples and many Tolkien examples, most of whom are, I guess we can't quite call the Stewards royalty, but they do make up a large number of the. The names that are repeated often in human history like that.

[Alan Sisto]

And now I just need to find somebody else named Don to join me next season on the Prancing Pony Podcast. Don the second. You see. Yes, but what about second. Oh, Alan, I've had one second breakfast joke. Yes, but what about third? Second breakfast joke. Oh, very metal.

[Don Marshall]

This joke has so many layers to it.

[Alan Sisto]

I know.

[Don Marshall]

God was mailbag. I apologize. It was much more of a deep dive into my special interests than.

[Alan Sisto]

No, I love that. That's exactly why you're here, man. Thank you.

[Don Marshall]

Usually it's a back and forth, but my God, man, I took your philology stuff and I went names.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm all good now. That's right. I mean my. My happy spot. Well, folks, speaking of happy spots, that wraps it up for another episode of the Prancing Pony podcast and this season with the incredible Don Marshall Aglario, a laetate light to praise him with great praise.

[Don Marshall]

Oh, thank you, thank you. It has been an absolute pleasure being here.

[Alan Sisto]

All well deserved, folks. We will be off next week for the Thanksgiving weekend here in the US but please be sure to come back in two weeks when Matt the Nerd of the Rings and I will be joined by a few of our patrons for our 29th quarterly questions after Nightfall.

[Don Marshall]

Alan and I really want to thank, and I do mean this as my last episode, really want to thank the members of Team PPP editor Jordan Rannells for dealing with my constant mess ups and mispronunciations of all of the words from Numenor that Alan gave me. Barleyman, Becca Davis, social media manager Casey Hilsey, event and Patreon community coordinator Katie McKenna, who's texting me regularly about all of the stuff that I am doing on this podcast. I appreciate it.

[Alan Sisto]

Post herder extraordinaire.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, she really is. Graphic artist Megan Collins, incredibly talented, and of course, website guru extraordinaire, Phil Dean. Thank you all very much for.

[Alan Sisto]

Also, Numenorean guard Phil Dean from season one of Rings of Power. Yes.

[Don Marshall]

What?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. You didn't know that? I've never told you. No. Yeah, he was one of the Numenorean guards. I'll have to show you some of his scenes. I'm so very sad now that the numenorean guards got a bigger role in season two, that he wasn't there anymore. But that's what happens when they move filming from New Zealand back to the uk. He escorted Morfyth and Charlie out of the throne room of Numenor in whatever episode that was where they were there in numerous. Episode three, I think it was. Yeah.

[Don Marshall]

Phil, if you are listening to this, how does it feel to be living my dream, sir?

[Alan Sisto]

Very cool. Yeah, it's great stuff. Well, folks, please take a minute to check out the prancingponypodcast.com that's where you're going to find show notes, outtakes, Prancing Pony ponderings. And you'll find our online storefront there where you can get PPP merch, including the amazing, breathtaking, always impressive artwork work that Megan has done for the show over the last two and a half seasons.

[Don Marshall]

Now, you'll also want to visit our library page. The Prancing Pony podcast is, after all, a podcast about books. So if you're interested in the books that we have mentioned on the show, you can find a link for it in our library. We do get a small bit of compensation when you make that purchase. We do. Thank you for that. But I'm also, since this is my last episode, gonna plug another book that might not be on that library page.

[Alan Sisto]

Why?

[Don Marshall]

We love Middle Earth.

[Alan Sisto]

Thank you.

[Don Marshall]

And absolutely wonderful Deep dive.

[Alan Sisto]

It has a page on the website.

[Don Marshall]

Well, I've just put my foot in my mouth. Anyway. Thank you.

[Alan Sisto]

I appreciate that, man. I mean, it's. We enjoyed writing it so very much and I'm glad that people are enjoying it. It's. It was a lot of fun.

[Don Marshall]

Also, they get a little bit more compensation, I think, from those sales. So, you know, we almost get a.

[Alan Sisto]

Cup of coffee per book, almost. Oh, hey, a cup of like Dunkin Donuts coffee, not Starbucks coffee, which is better anyway. Let's be honest, right?

[Don Marshall]

If you're paying like seven or eight dollars for coffee, is it truly coffee at that point or is it just a flavored dessert with some coffee in it? That's all I'm saying. I don't actually drink coffee.

[Alan Sisto]

No, actually, neither do I. I prefer my caffeine, cold and bubbly.

[Don Marshall]

I just prefer my medications. Adderall is a great replacement for that.

[Alan Sisto]

I love it. That's a fair point. Well, we also want to thank our patrons at the Curedance contribution tier. I'm going to start with Demay in Alaska, Chad in Texas, Lance in New Jersey, Paul in Colorado, Joseph in Michigan, Kathy from North Carolina, Carlos in California, Brian in the uk, Jerry from Washington, Joe in Washington, Irwin from the Netherlands, Ben in Minnesota, Anthony in Texas, Karen in the uk, June in Ireland, Zak, sue in Illinois, Sarah in New Jersey, Joshua in Massachusetts, Lucy in Texas, and Keith in Alabama.

[Don Marshall]

Before I get to my reading names, you can call me Icing because I'm laying it on thick this time. I commented to Allan how many more people there were at this tier than the last time I was on here. And so hopefully if Allan wants to have me back, there's even more here. So I want to give a huge shout out to thank you to Erica in Texas, Carson in Oklahoma, Vivian in California, James in Massachusetts, Ann in Kentucky, Sean in New Jersey, Mason in California, Maureen from Matt, Massachusetts, Olivia in London, Robert in Arizona, Nick in Wisconsin, Lewis in South Carolina, Thomas in Germany, Craig in California, Bailey in Texas, Kevin in Massachusetts, Julie in Washington, Bruce in California, Nathan in Arizona, and Joe in Maryland. Thank you all very much for the support indeed.

[Alan Sisto]

Thank you.

[Don Marshall]

Make sure you don't miss any episodes of the Prancing Pony podcast. You can subscribe now through Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or your favorite podcast app.

[Alan Sisto]

And one last thing. As always, don't forget to send your thoughts, comments, and most of all, your stories of brotherly love to barnaman@the prancingpony.

[Don Marshall]

Podcast.Com and if you would like your voice literally heard as well, you can send us audio of your questions. Visit pod inbox.com prancingponypod and record your questions for us. Please be sure to still email the questions to Bartlemon.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Now, even though Bartleman's been a lot more more reliable in the last couple of years, there's still a lot of mail to sort through. We'll try to get to you just as soon as we're able. As always, this has been far too short a time to spend among such excellent and admirable listeners, and with such an excellent and admirable co host.

[Don Marshall]

But until next time, you honor me my friend. Thank you. I have been Don Marshall, the obscure Lord of the Rings Facts guy and I have had the absolute pleasure of working through moving to a different state, surviving a hurricane, being at a of town for 11 days straight, followed by another person being out of town for a few days straight, constant reschedules and more text messages about rescheduling than I care to admit that would come from me. Allan, it has been an absolute pleasure being here yet again on the Prancing Pony podcast. Thank you, thank you.

[Alan Sisto]

Don't.

[Don Marshall]

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