352 – White Horse

Summary

Summary of The Prancing Pony Podcast

Episode 352 – "White Horse"

Release Date: December 15, 2024

In Episode 352 of The Prancing Pony Podcast titled "White Horse," hosts Alan Sisto and Matt explore the rich history of Rohan from J.R.R. Tolkien's Middle-earth legendarium, focusing on the House of Eorl and the legendary figure Helm Hammerhand. This episode marks significant developments, including Matt's integration as a co-host and discussions surrounding the newly released movie, War of the Rohirrim. The episode seamlessly weaves deep lore exploration with engaging banter, maintaining the show's signature blend of insightful discussion and humor.

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1. Welcome and Podcast Updates [00:40 – 03:13]

Alan Sisto opens the episode with a warm welcome, introducing Matt as the "nerd of the rings" and highlighting the podcast's evolution over nine seasons. The hosts set the stage for a deep dive into Appendix A2, focusing on the House of Eorl and the origins of the Rohirrim.

Notable Quote:

Alan [00:40]:

"Good evening, little masters, and welcome to episode 352 of the Prancing Pony podcast..."

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2. Guest Introduction and Recent Activities [03:13 – 08:21]

The conversation shifts to Matt's recent activities, including his coverage of the second season of Rings of Power, participation in San Diego Comic Con, and a memorable pilgrimage to New Zealand's Hobbiton and WETA workshops. Matt shares his immersive experiences and the connections made during these events.

Notable Quotes:

Matt [03:13]:

"We had a second season of Rings of Power. So lots, lots of coverage for that."

Matt [04:24]:

"I've gotten some real inside scoop stuff too, didn't you?"

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3. Exploring the House of Eorl [01:42 – 35:40]

Alan and Matt conduct an in-depth reading and analysis of Appendix A2, detailing the historical background of the Eotheod and their alliance with Gondor. They discuss the geographical challenges, such as the vast distance between Gondor and Rohan, and the significance of names like Calenardhon and Limlight. The hosts delve into the linguistic nuances of Tolkien's naming conventions, enriching the discussion with their passion for Tolkien's world-building.

Notable Quotes:

Matt [02:00]:

"At last, tidings came to Eorl of the need of Gondor and late though it seemed he set out with a great host of riders."

Alan [23:04]:

"We get a clear description of where on the map they've settled. Here, near the sources of the great river that is the Anduin."

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4. The Legend of Helm Hammerhand [35:40 – 74:36]

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to the legend of Helm Hammerhand. The hosts explore Helm's rise to power, his confrontation with Freca, and his heroic deeds during the Long Winter. They analyze the mythological elements, such as the concept of 'weregild,' and discuss the linguistic origins of names, connecting them to real-world languages like Old English. This segment provides listeners with a comprehensive understanding of Helm's importance in Rohan's history and his enduring legacy.

Notable Quotes:

Alan [36:12]:

"You have only Helm to deal with alone and unarmed."

Matt [55:27]:

"That's the idea of wereguild. It's a price paid for causing the death of someone."

Alan [43:04]:

"It's a fun story."

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5. "War of the Rohirrim" Movie Insights [76:17 – 104:04]

With the recent release of the War of the Rohirrim movie, Alan and Matt share their excitement and predictions for the film's portrayal of Rohan's history and characters. They discuss aspects like sound design, voice acting, and the film's faithfulness to Tolkien's texts. The hosts express anticipation for their upcoming review and reflect on the challenges of adapting such rich lore into a visual medium.

Notable Quotes:

Matt [94:28]:

"So we’re giving predictions as we’re recording this over a month ahead of time."

Alan [97:03]:

"What am I looking forward to the most? For me, obviously... the moments most faithful to the text."

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6. Community Engagement and Social Media [41:05 – 72:10]

Alan and Matt highlight the podcast's vibrant community presence across various social media platforms, encouraging listeners to join discussions on Facebook, Reddit, Twitter, and Instagram. They emphasize the benefits of supporting the podcast via Patreon, offering exclusive content, live recordings, and merchandise. The hosts express gratitude towards their patrons, acknowledging their crucial support in sustaining the show.

Notable Quotes:

Matt [41:05]:

"The PPP has an amazing listener community and they're always coming up with great questions and discussions across all our social media spaces."

Matt [71:48]:

"Thank you all so very much for your support indeed."

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7. Conclusion and Upcoming Content [74:36 – 108:35]

As the episode wraps up, Alan and Matt preview future content, including continued exploration of Appendix A2 and discussions on the Rohirrim's lineage. They tease upcoming interviews and segments, ensuring listeners stay engaged with the podcast's journey through Middle-earth. The hosts express their commitment to delivering insightful and entertaining content, inviting listeners to continue their fellowship in the common room.

Notable Quotes:

Alan [108:35]:

"But until next time, this is the end."

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Key Takeaways

• Deep Lore Exploration: Episode 352 offers a comprehensive analysis of Rohan's history, focusing on the House of Eorl and the legendary Helm Hammerhand, enriching listeners' understanding of Tolkien's world.

• Engaging Storytelling: The hosts effectively blend detailed lore with personal anecdotes and humor, making complex topics accessible and entertaining.

• Community Focus: Emphasis on community engagement highlights the podcast's strong listener base and encourages active participation across multiple platforms.

• Adaptation Insights: Discussions on the War of the Rohirrim movie provide listeners with informed predictions and set the stage for future reviews, aligning the podcast's content with current adaptations.

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The Prancing Pony Podcast continues to be a treasure trove for Tolkien enthusiasts, seamlessly blending scholarly analysis with engaging conversation. Episode 352 – "White Horse" stands as a testament to the podcast's dedication to unraveling the depths of Middle-earth, offering both seasoned fans and newcomers a captivating journey through one of Tolkien's most beloved realms.

Transcript

[Matt]

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[Alan Sisto]

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[Matt]

Do wellness on your terms.

[Alan Sisto]

Find Ollie at a Walmart or Target near you [e-mail]. these statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any. Good evening, little masters, and welcome to episode 352 of the Prancing Pony podcast, where, well, the king does not permit brawls in his house, but men are freer outside. Matt.

[Matt]

Yeah, and I'm. I'm not going to walk out unarmed with you, for sure. I've seen you're. You're the kind of guy who goes to the gym a lot, so I don't know what I'm walking into.

[Alan Sisto]

One punch home right there.

[Matt]

That's right, folks, pull up a bench in the common room and join us. I'm Matt, the nerd of the rings, and I'm here with the man of the west who. Who has grown big since I was last here, but it is mostly fat, I guess. Alan Sisto.

[Alan Sisto]

You have said much already, Matt, and it is my turn to speak. Folks, join us as we shift gears a bit and jump Forward to Appendix A2 to talk about a house where brigands drink in the reek and their brats roll on the floor among the dogs. That's right, folks. It's time to look at the house of aorl.

[Matt]

Yeah, they need a doggy dog. Really, they should. They should have a dog. They need one of those roombas, you know, to go around and clean up all the dog hair and stuff. That's right, folks, no matter how you arrived, you're all welcome. Here in the common room at the Prancing Pony Podcast, we are reading and talking our way through Middle Earth with plenty of speculation and if you haven't picked up on it yet, bad jokes along the way.

[Alan Sisto]

There are a few of those. But we do love our deep dives into the lore and boy, are the appendices exactly that this season. We also love discussing Our favorite themes and moments in the story and a whole lot more.

[Matt]

But we try to keep it light and fun, like a couple friends chatting at the pub. And we're glad you've joined us.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm sure you'll be glad you joined as well. But before we get to tonight's chapter discussion, it's time to catch up a bit with my new co host for the next 10 or 12 episodes, Matt from the Nerd of the Rings. He was here with us last week for Questions after Nightfall, but now it's a chance for me to catch up and ask him a few questions. So, Matt, the last time you were here on the Prancing Pony podcast, Gollum had taken the ring from Frodo before taking a little tumble off the cliff. Now, a lot has happened, my friend, since last February. What have you been up to since then, man?

[Matt]

So we had a second season of Rings of Power. So lots, lots of coverage for that. Lots, lots of nights where I did not get a lot of sleep.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, that's right. You did the live watch parties, which were 3am Your time.

[Matt]

Yeah, the watch parties were 3am that's when they started. And I really hope they don't do that again because that was pretty awful time. That's a terrible time.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

I'm no marketing director or programming person for streaming platforms, but just as someone who lives on the east coast, in the east coast time zone, please don't do that again.

[Alan Sisto]

What about other stuff besides Rings of Power? Because that was really only the last couple of months.

[Matt]

Well, yeah, going back a bit further. We were both at San Diego Comic Con. That's right. This summer. Yeah. So, gosh, that was. So it was last. Last February.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah. February was when we threw the ring into the volcano. You and I were probably recording that in January, but, you know, as far as. As far as.

[Matt]

That's true. So I. I was trying to remember if I had gone to New Zealand when.

[Alan Sisto]

No, you had not.

[Matt]

I had not. Okay. So we. Yeah, so we probably chatted a bit.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. So tell us about that New Zealand trip, because that was pretty amazing.

[Matt]

Oh, my gosh. That's a pilgrimage, you know, for. For folks like us, that is. That is an absolute pilgrimage. If you ever folks have the chance to go to Hobbiton, it is the highlight for me. Like, everything was cool and like going. Going to Wellington and seeing WETA workshops.

[Alan Sisto]

You got some real inside scoop stuff too, didn't you? You got to actually talk.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've gotten to know some of the folks there at Weta and they're, they're fantastic people and I really love and admire their work. Not just in the films, but like their collectibles and stuff. Yeah, absolutely. Adore their statues. But yeah, the, the Hobbiton movie set, like I've never. There's, there's very few times where I've been that level of immersed into a place and you, you come around the corner and it's, you know where, where Gandalf and Frodo on the cart enter into Hobbiton and you get that, man, that boom shot that goes up and it's, it's just like that when you go. That's how they have you enter is basically reliving that shot. Yeah. And it's, it's amazing if you ever have the chance. Anyone?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I, I'm, I'm hoping to one of these days. I mean it's, that's tough because that's not a trip you can do in just a couple of weeks. I mean you, you can, but it, the, the travel is so long, the jet lag is so awful that you really need a buffer of two or three days on either end, don't you?

[Matt]

I think so, yeah. I was there for three weeks, which was a. Yeah, three weeks total. Two weeks for a tour with red carpet tours through the north island and south island and then a week in Wellington after that. I. Yeah, I think, I think two weeks is, is probably like the sweet spot.

[Alan Sisto]

Is it? Okay.

[Matt]

I would think where then you can, you can have time to experience everything. But yeah, if, if you ever find yourself, for whatever reason, if you found yourself in New Zealand and landed in Auckland New Z, somehow I ended up here. Somehow I ended up in Auckland for three days or whatever. Go to Hobbiton because. Oh my gosh, that was, that was my favorite, favorite day of the whole thing for sure.

[Alan Sisto]

That's amazing. I really. I hope that I get a chance to get there.

[Matt]

I hope you do too.

[Alan Sisto]

We've bandied about the idea of having a PPP moot there eventually, but it would have to be maybe in coordination with somebody else. And you know, possibly you have to.

[Matt]

Plan it way in advance and plan.

[Alan Sisto]

It years in advance so that people can save their pennies because it is not a cheap place to get to by any means.

[Matt]

No, it's not. It's a very long flight. That's one of those things where it's like, oh, I felt like I actually got some good sleep and then it's like, oh, I Still have five hours on this plane, right?

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. Yeah. That's wild. I. Even from here, and I'm on the west coast, It's something like 16 hours, I think.

[Matt]

Yeah. I mean, you can watch the entire Extended Edition trilogy.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. And still have time to watch the. One of the fan cuts of the. Of the Hobbit.

[Matt]

Right. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Like, you could.

[Matt]

You could have yourself quite the marathon. I would recommend getting some sleep.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I would, too, if.

[Matt]

If you were so inclined, you could.

[Alan Sisto]

Or if you're like me and cannot sleep on an airplane, it's tough for me.

[Matt]

Yeah, for me, too.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. I think the only time I ever slept on an airplane was when. When we made that trip to London and. And Amazon sent us out there, so we were.

[Matt]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

That was a little nicer, but that's tricky. That's. It's sort of like, thank you very much for exposing me to that. And also, I'm never going to be able to do that on my own, so. Right.

[Matt]

I will never sleep on a plane again.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Oh, all right. Well, you know, you mentioned San Diego Comic Con. We did have a wonderful time at San Diego Comic Con, getting to go to a couple of events and just hang around with not only each other, but all the other Tolkien creators that we're friends with. That was a really fun time. Great time catching up with you. But recently, I had another chance to work with you in, of all places, New Hampshire.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Tell us about your time at Studio Labs with Corey, Maggie, and the team at Rings and Realms.

[Matt]

Yeah, I mean, we're working, you know, with you guys. That was. That was definitely a highlight, trying out a lobster roll for the first time. That was. That was kind of fun, too. Those are pretty. Pretty tasty. The hot ones, not the cold ones. So.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay.

[Matt]

Anyone from New England or who travels to New England, I definitely recommend the hot lobster roll. Not the cold one. The cold one was weird. But, yeah, so we. We hung out at Studio Lab there, and we got to film a lot of, you know, kind of retrospective things. On Rings of Power Season 2. One of my favorite moments was when Corey realized that because of process of elimination and how pairings were going, that you and I were going to be together. On the Rune storyline segment, he rejected that out of hand and he said absolute not, and he switched it up. He would not let you and I.

[Alan Sisto]

Any other combination, right? Yeah, any other combination.

[Matt]

Any other combination of people to talk about Rune, but not me and Alan at the same time.

[Alan Sisto]

That was really interesting and also revealing. Yeah.

[Matt]

Yes. I Think he has trust issues when it comes to sex?

[Alan Sisto]

I think he does.

[Matt]

I don't know.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. You should see the look on his face when we were talking about one of the other storylines on the show, because, of course, we each did three segments. I don't remember now which of the three that it was. And I said this. I think it might have been Numenore. I was talking about what a great storyline it was and how I wished we'd had more. And he said, I wish we had more as well. And I said, yeah, we could have had more. Just drop the rune story. I don't know if that line will actually get into the final release of the clip.

[Matt]

Oh, my gosh. That. That. I did not realize that because that was not a segment that I was on with you, because I. So we each did three segments.

[Alan Sisto]

Say the same thing.

[Matt]

I brought it up in both of my other segments.

[Alan Sisto]

That is hilarious, because you and I did pilar gear together. Yeah. Which was a good storyline, but I.

[Matt]

Did say it in polar gear.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Oh, that's hilarious. I love it.

[Matt]

I got more subtle with it. Like, the first time, I was like, well, we could take it. Just drop the rune storyline and we'll have more time. And then next time, I was like, it's like, yeah, if only there was something else that they could have done. Oh, man.

[Alan Sisto]

It was a lot of fun, though.

[Matt]

That's what he didn't want in the rune segment, correct?

[Alan Sisto]

Correct. Yeah. No wonder he didn't want us both there. We also got to do the fan tracks. I think you and I did a couple of them. One just the two of us and one with James. So, folks, if you want sort of like a Mystery Science Theater 3000 experience, when you're watching Rings of Power Season 2, you get those fan tracks from Corey's brands. I don't know whether it's at Rings and Realms or at Signum or at the collaboratory, but wherever it is, look those up and you can listen to me, Matt. Or me, Matt and James.

[Matt]

Yeah, there's probably some serious ones that other people did, but our.

[Alan Sisto]

We did some serious ones, but, yeah.

[Matt]

We did a little bit, but I.

[Alan Sisto]

Did a fairly serious one with James, and then I did another one. I think Kirsten and I did episode one. So that was.

[Matt]

So you're saying it's because of me that our.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, you are a total goof. Yeah, absolutely. You set the tone. I appreciate it.

[Matt]

That checks out.

[Alan Sisto]

That definitely checks out. I also. I don't know about you, but I haven't worked a 17 hour workday in a very long time. That was really wild.

[Matt]

They should do that in two days.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, we'd already worked the day before on Friday for about, I don't know, what, about 10 hours? Oh, I think it was like, what, noon to like about almost midnight. Like 10 hours.

[Matt]

We were there for a while.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Doing the Q&As and I don't know what else. I can't remember. And then. Yeah, yeah, we were there that Saturday.

[Matt]

The second day, though, was a gauntlet.

[Alan Sisto]

Eight in the morning to one in the morning.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

It was so funny. I remember though, at the end, what did you do for face replacement? Who were you? So on Corey and Maggie's show on Rings and Realms, they do a thing called face replacement. And if you've ever seen that, there's that one moment where Tom Bombadil stands up, turns around, and it's Corey's face and it's a really cool moment. And Studio labs does some fantastic work. And we all got to do that. We all got to be somebody else. So, Matt, who are you?

[Matt]

Yeah, so I actually did not do one because it was so late and they were like, oh, do you want to. Didn't you want to stick around for a face replacement? I was like, I had to get up at 6am for my flight. So, no, I was like, I'm done. I was like, I. I had to tap out.

[Alan Sisto]

I was tired too. I wanted to go back and I was about to. And they said, but do you want to stick around so you can punch Kemen? And I said, yes. Oh, I mean, really?

[Matt]

That sounds good.

[Alan Sisto]

So I get to. I think I get to be that Elendil in that moment, but maybe Valandil, I don't know which. I don't know whose face they're gonna. I think Elendil.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. So we'll see. We'll find out. That was a lot of fun, though. I really enjoyed working with you and with James and Kirsten as well as Corey, Maggie and the team at Rings and Realms. So even though that was just a couple of weeks ago in real time, it wasn't the last trip that you took to the East Coast. And this is, I think, what I really want to get to in this interview. I understand you just came back from New York Comic Con recently and might have gotten to see a little something. Want to tell us about that?

[Matt]

Yeah. So at New York Comic Con, they had a panel for War of the Rohirrim. So I Got to go to the panel. And then I was on. On the press line, did some interviews with cast and crew and writers, producers, a nice collection of folks involved with that film. But, yeah, they. They showed, you know, like. Like any of these Comic Con panels, whether it's San Diego, New York, whatever. They show some exclusive clips that, you know, don't get released to the public after the fact, which is, you know, exciting to see. See things for the first time. And then there's, like, a hype reel kind of thing. They did show us that there was a video that's come out, I think, where. Where it focuses kind of, like on the artwork and stuff. So we. We saw that one. That promo video went out public. But, yeah, we saw a clip. And I'll try to recall this for everybody, even. Even though, like, by the time you hear this, you'll. You'll be, like, ready to go see the movie.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, the movie came out two days ago.

[Matt]

Oh. So, yeah. So you've probably already seen it.

[Alan Sisto]

So.

[Matt]

So remember that part in the movie?

[Alan Sisto]

We. We've already seen the movie, but we haven't seen the movie as we're recording this, Right?

[Matt]

Yes. Okay, so remember, guys, the part in the movie where. Where Hera, like, wakes up and can't find Helm, and they're. They're in Helm's Deep, and you see Dunlendings, like, just freaking out because Helm Hammerhand is killing them with his bare hands. And they're like.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

You know, like. Like, he's not a man. He's a Wraith. You know, like, there's. There's like, just this. This air of, like, what is going on with Helm? Because, you know, like, Hera is looking for him. He's missing. And they show, like, this silhouette shot of him where he's backlit, and he just looks creepy as heck. Yeah. And it kind of plays into, you know, that, like, he's not an actual Wraith. No Shadow of Mordor stuff going on here.

[Alan Sisto]

No, and we'll talk about that in this episode, Right, because we get to talk about the story of Helm Hammerhand today, right?

[Matt]

Yes. Yes. But they. They play into, like, visually, it's kind of the. The. You can see how that. That miss. That, you know, legend would be born.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Because the legend is even that after he died, even after he kind of basically froze to death and was standing there, is that now the wraith of Helm goes around and killing people with fear, Right?

[Matt]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a great, great story. I can't wait to talk about that in the episode. It's gonna be fun.

[Matt]

Yeah. It seems like a nice creepy clip that, you know, that's unique. You know, we get some creepy stuff in the films, but like this, you know, that for the hero to be.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Creepy presence. I'm curious, you know, to see how that. That plays out in the film. I've always thought, you know, that Helm, the way that Helm is seen by the Dunlendings reminds me of John Wick and how he's seen by the bad guys.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

And like the. It's. It's an interesting. Ever since this was pointed out to me, the fact that John Wick is, you know, being the boogeyman. Like.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, he's.

[Matt]

He's like the horror film figure in there, but he's the good guy. Like.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right.

[Matt]

You know, it's. It's this nice, really cool reversal, which is part of the reason why I think it works so well. But Helm is kind of like that.

[Alan Sisto]

Where a little bit. Yeah.

[Matt]

You know, he is just like this.

[Alan Sisto]

He's a terror.

[Matt]

Scary. Yeah. Terror of a presence that, you know, he. He strikes the kind of fear that you would see people react to. Like the Nazgul with, you know.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, I mean, as we'll see when we get to that part in the story, he'd blow the horn and instead of like coming together to defeat him.

[Matt]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

They were like, we're out, we're out. Thanks for letting us know. I appreciate the heads up. We're gone. Yeah. Really, really good stuff. Well, so besides the debut of the War of the Rohirrim, which, like we said, actually came out a couple of days ago, by the time this episode airs, and we'll talk about that later as well.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

What other things are you looking forward to, Matt, over the next year in the world of Tolkie? Not just the tail end of 24, which really is just about the War of the Rohirrim. Right. What are the things you're looking forward to in 25?

[Matt]

Yeah, well, like we. We were talking a bit earlier, the. The Art of the War. The Rohir book comes out in 2025. Daniel Falconer always brings it. Does such a good job with those tie in books, so I'm looking forward to that. Aside from Rohirrim though, we've got the Tales of the Shire video game. I got to play a little bit of that on my channel. Like.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I remember seeing that. That. Yeah, that was good.

[Matt]

Yeah. I thought I was being so unique because I just naturally started doing voices for all the characters because it's just lower thirds that pop up. It's not like actual voice. So I started doing like all these different Hobbit voices. I think everyone who played the game like defaults.

[Alan Sisto]

It's kind of hard not to. Right. I mean, you're reading Hobbit dialogue, you're hearing Hobbit voices. Yeah. In a way I respect that decision to, to leave it just as lower thirds rather than cast voice actors. Even speaking as a voice actor myself, who would have loved to have done that, even though I've never done anything like that. Because then you get to use your own imagination. You get to hear the voices in your head the way you want to hear them.

[Matt]

Yeah, well. And I think that's a pretty common thing for those type of cozy games that you could see that type of game playing really well across different markets and languages. And rather than needing to have a full on voice cast for every one of those languages, you have the lower thirds, they're translated for the different languages. And then, you know, I'm sure that's a huge save.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm sure it was a massive save. And it also is a massive save in terms of just practical means.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Because now the file sizes are smaller. So you know, they want this game to be available on multiple platforms. This isn't just a PC or Xbox title. Right. This is also a mobile title.

[Matt]

Yeah. I think Switch will be a big.

[Alan Sisto]

Platform for this one and Switch will be huge. Yeah, you're right. I mean, basically, wouldn't you say Tales from the Shire is sort of Animal Crossing and Stardew Valley sort of combined in a way.

[Matt]

That's the comparisons that I've, I've heard too. I've not played either of those games, but yeah, like the, the cozy definitely comes like does it. It's, it's very apparent, you know, cozy is a very apt term when it comes to it.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm looking forward to it. That should be a lot of fun. Well, you know what else I'm looking forward to is you reading the first part of Appendix A2. The House of Eorles.

[Matt]

In the 2,510th year of the Third Age, a new peril threatened Gondor. A great host of wildmen from the northeast swept over Rhovanion and coming down out of the brown Lands crossed the Anduin on rafts. At the same time, by chance or design, the Orcs, who at that time before their war with the dwarves were in great strength, made a descent from the mountains. The invaders overran Calenardhon and Cirion, Steward of Gondor sent north for help. For there had been long friendship between the Men of Anduin's Vale and the people of Gondor. But in the valley of the river, Men were now few and scattered and slow to render such aid as they could. At last, tidings came to Eorl of the need of Gondor and late though it seemed he set out with a great host of riders. Thus he came to the Battle of the Field of Celebrant for that was the name of the Green land that lay between the Silverlode and the Limlight. There the northern army of Gondor was in peril defeated in the Wold and cut off from the south. It had been driven across the Limlight and was then suddenly assailed by the Orc host that pressed it towards the Anduin. All hope was lost when unlooked for the riders came out of the north and broke upon the rear of the enemy. Then the fortunes of battle were reversed and the enemy was driven with slaughter. Over the limb light Eorl led his men in pursuit. And so great was the fear that went before the horsemen of the north that the invaders of the Wold were also thrown into panic and the riders hunted them over the plains of Calenardhon. The people of that region had become few since the plague and most of those that remained had been slaughtered by the savage Easterlings. Cirion, therefore, in reward for his aid gave Calenardhon between the Anduin and Isen to Eorl and his people. And they sent north for their wives and children and their goods and settled in that land. They named it anew, the Mark of the Riders. And they called themselves the Eorlingas. But in Gondor, their land was called Rohan and its people the Rohirrim that is, the Horse Lords. Thus, Eorl became the first king of the Mark and he chose for his dwelling a green hill before the feet of the White Mountains that were the south wall of his land. There the Rohirrim lived afterwards as free men under their own kings and laws but in perpetual alliance with Gondor.

[Alan Sisto]

Thank you, Matt. Now, we did skip reading that first paragraph here because, well, as usual, we have to skip something. But let's go ahead and take a look at what we missed.

[Matt]

First we join the story of the Eotheod when they are led by Errol the Young. While we'll get the details later. He became their Lord in 2501 of the third age.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, folks, this is about 40 years after Sauron returned to Dol Guldur, ending the watchful peace. It's also a little less than 40 years after Smeagol obtained the One Ring, and it's eight years before Celebrian's capture and torture by the Orcs. Just to sort of fit these moments on the timeline for you, we also.

[Matt]

Get a clear description of where on the map they've settled. Here, near the sources of the great river that is the Anduin. And it's somewhere between the Misty Mountains and Mirkwood, near the very northern end of the Misty Mountains.

[Alan Sisto]

Now in Unfinished Tales, in the story of Kyrian and Eora, which we're going to end up doing like a seven or eight episode sidebar on coming up, we get more detail about the precise location. The new land of the Eotheod lay north of Mirkwood, between the Misty Mountains westward and the Forest river eastward. Southward, it extended to the confluence of the two short rivers that they named Graylin and Langwell. Graylin flowed down from Ered Mithryn, the Grey Mountains, but Langwell came from the Misty Mountains, and this name it bore because it was the source of the Anduin, which from its junction with Graylin, they called Langflood.

[Matt]

The footnote to this passage says these rivers, unnamed, are marked on the map to the Lord of the Rings. The Graylin is there shown as having two tributary branches.

[Alan Sisto]

But we hear you say I can see the names of the rivers on my map. Whatever does Christopher mean? Well, if you have a map from a more recent edition, you absolutely can.

[Matt]

But when Christopher Tolkien published Unfinished Tales, the existing map in the Lord of the Rings did not have these rivers named.

[Alan Sisto]

And that's what the footnote's referring to. Recall, it was Christopher himself who drew that original map in 1953. In 1980 for Unfinished Tales, he completely redid the map, explaining. My first intention was to include in this book the map that accompanies the Lord of the Rings with the addition to it of further names. But it seemed to me on reflection that it would be better to copy my original map and take the opportunity to remedy some of its minor defects, to remedy the major ones being beyond my powers.

[Matt]

So, yes, in remedying those minor defects, Christopher has now given us the names of those rivers in their correct locations. And where is that location? Way, way, way north. In fact, the next paragraph in Unfinished Tales tells us that while it was 450 miles in a straight line from the confluence of those rivers to the northern border of Gondor, where the limb Light reaches the anduin, it was 800 miles from the Eotheod to Minas Tirith.

[Alan Sisto]

That is roughly the distance from Oxford, England, to Florence, Italy. So it's a very, very long way. And that distance will be relevant later, I promise you.

[Matt]

Then we learn when these people settled there in the days of King Earnil ii.

[Alan Sisto]

All right, that definitely puts us on the timeline, doesn't it?

[Matt]

It does, absolutely. Now, this is the guy that the Council of Gondor chose to become king after the death of King Ondoher and his sons in the battle with the Wainriders.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Instead of Arvedui, whose claim was rejected as King Don and I talked about extensively last month on the podcast now, king Arnel the second reigned in Gondor from third age, 1945 to 2043. So that means they settled sometime in that time frame.

[Matt]

Or if we look at the tale of years, we get the exact year, which is 1977 of the third.

[Alan Sisto]

Thank you for being precise. I appreciate that, man. Thank you for making me look silly. I appreciate it.

[Matt]

No, 1970s. Just remember, it's the same year that Star wars came out in our own.

[Alan Sisto]

Time, during the Carter presidency. Yeah. Yes, during the reign of King Jimmy Carter. That's an interesting picture. All right, why did they move there, and why then? Well, later in that same paragraph, we learned that they were getting a bit crowded in their earlier home. There were many men in the Middle Vales of Anduin.

[Matt]

Yeah, that area surrounding the Anduin, but further south, between the Carrick to the north and the Gladden to the south. So when the Witch King was overthrown in 1975, they headed north, wiped out what was left of the forces of Angmar, and settled there in the north.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. I have a theory here, though. It wasn't just that they'd heard about the defeat of the Witch King here. I think if we go back to that part of Appendix A, we read about the forces that Gondor sent to help Arthedain. I mean, too late for Arthedain, but in that description we read most of all, the horses were praised, for many of them came from the Vales of Anduin, and with them were riders tall and fair and proud princes of Rhovanion, who, of course, you know, the folks from Rhovanion were the Northmen who were kin. That is to say, those were who the Eotheod came from.

[Matt]

Yes, I think. I think that is ironclad there. I totally agree. So these ancestors of Rohan, they're part of the force that defeated the Witch King in the battle of Fornost. And so of course they would know about this. They would know that the Witch King was defeated.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right.

[Matt]

And with the Witch, with the Witch King gone and they've got got a crowded homeland in the middles of the Vales of Anduin, they say hey, let's, let's move up north.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean we might have to, you know, sew together some jackets, you know, build a little warmer homes or something. But you know, it'll be all right.

[Matt]

It's not like there's dragons or anything up there. You know, what can possibly.

[Alan Sisto]

I don't know, I don't know anything about the arid Mithran and you know, the, the withered heath or anything like that. So we also learn more about the history and lineage of the people that make up the Aotheod. And while we already know about their descent from the Northmen, the kings of Rhovanion. What do you make of this bit, Matt? This kind of threw me for a bit. They were described as being close akin to the Beornings and the Men of the West Eaves of the forest.

[Matt]

Yeah. Now you guys looked at this back in episode 348 when we first encountered the Northmen in the history of Gondor. But a quick reminder is in order. So when the Edain first went west, there were three houses. The House of Beor, the House of Hador and the House Haleth and in.

[Alan Sisto]

Of Dwarves and men. That's an essay found in the Peoples of Middle Earth. We learned that the Folk of Beor were the first men to enter Beleriand and that they were a small people. And it's after that we read about three different hosts of the Folk of Hador coming up from the south. And here's the quote that tells us a little bit about that. These men, it seems had come westward until faced by the great greenwood. That would of course be Mirkwood. And then had divided some reaching the Anduin and passing thence northward up the vales, some passing between the north eaves of the wood and the Ered Mithryn. Only a small part of this people, already very numerous and divided into many tribes, had then passed into Eriador and so come at last to Beleriand. They were brave and loyal folk, true hearted haters of Morgoth and his servants. But we do get sort of the implication that some of them came to the south end and went up the Vales of Anduin. So those are going to be the men of the eaves of the forest. And others would have gone, what was it? North between the wood and arid Mithran. Well, that's going to end up getting you up near where Lake Town is and things like that. So I, I think that's what we're talking about here in terms of the Kent.

[Matt]

And of course these are also horsemen who loved best the plains. Yeah, that's a nod, of course, towards their eventual future as the Rohirrim and all that. That's just in the first paragraph, but let's pick up where I started reading. Yeah, we're getting really deep here. The threat to Gondor in 2510 is of the Easterlings.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Now we've talked about this before and because we're going to talk about it much more at length when we cover Kyrion and Aoral next, we're going to skip the details here and stay just with the summary version that's provided in the text. So we're not going to go super deep. Calenardhon was overrun. And again, that's the region we now know of as Rohan and Kyrion sent for help. And that's where this 800 mile distance comes into play because that's really hard to get a message up there.

[Matt]

Yeah, because even though there was a long friendship between Gondor and the Northmen, the distance was also pretty long. We'll get to. Yeah, yeah, we'll get. We'll get to how those tidings come to Aorl. But here in the short version, it's enough to know that he led out a host of riders to come to Gondor's rescue. And after that we get the brief description of the battle of the Field of Celebrant. That comes next. First learning that Celebrant is the name of the land between the river Silverlode which goes through the land of Lorien, by the way, and the Limblight which comes out of the north end of Fangorn Forest.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Now, a little word nerdery here before we go on. That's sort of my role here. Now, Celebrant is Sindarin with the elements Celeb, meaning silver, as in Celeborn and Celebrimborg and Runt meaning course. So it's the silver course. It's also known as the Silver Lode. And the field, of course is named after the river. The Field of Celebrant.

[Matt]

And then of course, the horsemen not surprisingly learn that Gondor was in serious trouble here they're cut off from the south, and with an army of Orcs coming on from the west, you know, they're getting pushed toward the river.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. And that is when the Eotheod saves the day and slaughters the Orcs to the point that even the Easterlings were panicking. You know, like, oh, man, look, they're killing all the Orcs. We better run. So they run and the riders chase them down. And with that in mind, we move on quickly in this very short version of the story to the bit where the Eotheod are given Calanarthon. And that's between the Anduin and the Isen Rivers, north of the White Mountains.

[Matt]

Yeah. And we're told the people that lived in these lands had become few since the plague, which. That was in 636. Yeah. 900 years before. So they've had. They've had time to dwindle, but apparently they did not bounce back from that one.

[Alan Sisto]

Not.

[Matt]

Yeah. And the few that had stayed there were mostly killed by the Easterlings. So the land's pretty bare right now.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, I know it says that. Right. I mean, that's certainly the indication that the lands are empty, but I think they're going to be some folks maybe of Dunlending descent who don't really feel like the land was entirely empty.

[Matt]

Yeah, that's less empty than. Than they make it out to be. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. And we also don't want to forget, even though they don't come up in this version of the story at all, but the Wild Men Khan, Louis Han and his people living in the White Mountains. So, I mean, I appreciate where Gondor is coming from here, but the land is not entirely empty. So it's just empty of your people.

[Matt]

It definitely. You know, reading between the lines, I think we're led to believe there was a significant population of Gondorians there.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[Matt]

That are no longer there.

[Alan Sisto]

That's correct. I mean, that's really what we're talking about. The people of that region have become few. They mean the Gondorian people that become few. Yeah. Right.

[Matt]

So presumably they don't really talk about it, but presumably the Dunlendings and Druidyne would also be affected by the plague, I would think.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yeah. They would have been affected by the plague. And it was mostly empty. In fairness, this wasn't where the bulk of the Dunlendings lived. I mean, this was never done.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

You know.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And, you know, the. The Wild Men, Hanbury Han's people as we know them in the Lord of the Rings. They were never very numerous people so it's certainly fair to say it was mostly empty land. But, you know, we'll get there.

[Matt]

We'll definitely be talking entirely. Yeah, we'll get. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Eorl and the Riders, of course. Then after the victory and after the Gift of Calenardhon send for their families and the entire people move from the north down here to the Mark of the Riders. And this naming stuff is worth taking a very quick look ahead to Kiriane Orel just to discuss here. Right after Kiran and Eorl talked through the terms of this gift we read that Eorl took the title of King of the Mark of the Riders. But in the event, it was some while before the Rohirrim took possession of the land. And during his life, Eorl was known as Lord of the Eotheod and King of Calenardhon. The term Mark signified a borderland especially one serving as a defense of the inner lands of a realm. The Sindarin names Rohan for the Mark and Rohirrim for the people were devised first by Halas, son and successor of Kyrion but were often used not only in Gondor but by the Eotheod themselves.

[Matt]

Yeah, and we'll dig into more on the names when we get there. In Kyrion and Eorl, of course, the details are in footnote 49 so it might be a little bit before we get there.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. So just give you a little teaser now. That's right.

[Matt]

Yeah. But Errol becomes the first king though he was only known as King of the Mark or King of Kalinarthon, not the King of Rohan. And we'll get a mention of the location of the new capital as well. A green hill before the feet of the White Mountains which sounds like the hill upon which the city of Etterus is built and eventually the hall of Meduseld.

[Alan Sisto]

It does, doesn't it? But you'd be wrong if you thought it was. That's right.

[Matt]

Correct.

[Alan Sisto]

It is not. In unfinished Tales we encounter the name of a town that serves as the base of the 3rd Marshal of the Rittermark. That's the position that Eomer holds when we meet him during the time of the War of the Ring. That town is called Aldburg and it's located in the Fold, which is a region in the middle of Rohan, actually between the Westfold and East Fold. And the author's note for that passage tells us something very interesting here. Eorl had his house. It passed after Brego son of Eorl removed to Edoras into the hands of Eophor, third son of Brego, from whom Eomund, father of Eomer, claimed descent. The fold was part of the king's lands, but Aldburg remained the most convenient base for the muster of the Eastmark. So this is not Edoras that we read about here in the text, it is Aldburg.

[Matt]

Correct.

[Alan Sisto]

Did you know that, Matt, or did I?

[Matt]

I did, actually.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay.

[Matt]

No, I thought I did know that.

[Alan Sisto]

You've got a lot of knowledge on the Rohirrim, and I didn't think I'd slip one by you.

[Matt]

Yeah, I. I am a big fan of the Rohirrim, which is obviously, you know, I. I think that's why you penciled me in for this segment.

[Alan Sisto]

I think it is. Yeah.

[Matt]

It wasn't just scheduling reasons, but.

[Alan Sisto]

No, it's actually the other reason why I moved. You know, numerically. I should have continued on with appendix A1, because I haven't finished that yet. Aragorn. And Arwen has been moved to a much later section so that I could jump straight into the Rohirrim with you.

[Matt]

That's. That's. I will say, Aragorn, Arwen is also a really, really good one.

[Alan Sisto]

It really is. I'm going to be covering that with Dr. Sara Brown later in the season.

[Matt]

That's going to be really good teaser, folks. It's real good. So wherever Aoral built his home, what matters is that these people, the AOR Lingas, formerly the Eotheod, were people free under their own leadership, but allied with Gondor.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. And folks, we are free people under our own leadership. But we still need to take an ad break. We'll be back in a little bit. Now, sometimes people will ask what I want for the holidays. The truth is, I really just want to see my favorite people. So other than airplane tickets, the best gift you can give is an Aura digital picture frame. Highly rated, named the number one digital photo frame by Wirecutter. Aura frames are smart and easy to use. You can upload unlimited pictures and videos straight to the frame from your phone. You can preload it and give it as a gift so that it's ready to go right out of the box. I've taken hundreds, maybe even thousands of pictures this year on my phone. The kids, the cat, vacations, Tolkien conferences, book signings, and more. And this is a great way to share them with family and friends. It takes just a couple of minutes to set one up using the Aura app. The display looks Fantastic. And it adjusts to the light level of the room. You can use an app to control it or the slick interactive touch bar on the edge of the frame. Save on the perfect gift by visiting auraframes.com to get $35 off Aura's best selling Carver mat frames by using promo code PONY at checkout. That's auraframes.com promo code PONY this deal is exclusive to our listeners, so get yours now in time for the holidays. Terms and conditions apply. It's the new year and it's time to start tackling those things you've been putting off for too long. You've been kicking around a business idea for a while now and you're wondering how you're going to make 2025 different look. It's time to do this and Shopify is how you're going to get it done. Shopify makes it easy to create your own brand, open up your business and get that all important first sale. You can get your store up without any coding skills. Man, I couldn't code my way out of a paper sack. You just drag and drop with thousands of customizable templates. Shopify handles all the details that would bog you down. Things like shipping, taxes, payments, all from one easy to use dashboard so that you can focus on the important stuff growing your business. Speaking of which, Shopify has really powerful social media tools to connect all of your channels and create posts so that you can sell where people scroll. Don't kick yourself when you hear this again in a year because you spent 2025 still thinking about it. With Shopify, your first sale is closer than you think. Established in 2025 has a nice ring to it, doesn't it? Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com pony all lowercase go to shopify.com pony to start selling with Shopify today. Shopify.com pony now soon we'll get back to the many lords and warriors and many fair and valiant women in the songs of Rohan. But before we do, we want to remind you that there is a lot more talk going on at the Prancing Pony podcast than just us.

[Matt]

The PPP has an amazing listener community and they're always coming up with great questions and discussions across all our social media spaces. Check out our Common room on Facebook, our dedicated subreddit, Twitter and more now on Facebook.

[Alan Sisto]

Just look for the Prancing Pony podcast. Follow the page to get news, but you're going to want to join the group for some great discussions or if you prefer Reddit.

[Matt]

Find us there at r Prancingponypod On Twitter and Instagram, we're simply rancingponypod.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. And if you want daily Tolkien content, check out today's Tolkien times on YouTube and all your favorite podcast apps. It's my short format daily show with everything from Word Nerd Wednesday to First Age Friday. Be sure to check it out at YouTube.comtimes and follow ulkientimes on all your social media.

[Matt]

Well, Alan, we've gone entirely too long without talking about the Rohirrim, so please get get us back into the text.

[Alan Sisto]

Even a minute or two is too long. Yes, it's too long, all right. Laod was the name of Eorles father. He was a tamer of wild horses, for there were many at that time in the land. He captured a white foal, and it grew quickly to a horse, strong and fair and proud. No man could tame it. When Leo dared to mount it, it bore him away and at last threw him away, and Laod's head struck a rock, and so he died. He was then only 2 and 40 years old, and his son a youth of 16. Eorl vowed that he would avenge his father. He hunted long for the horse, and at last he caught sight of him, and his companions expected that he would try to come within bowshot and kill him. But when they drew near, Eorl stood up and called in a loud voice, come hither, man's Bane, and get a new name to their wonder. The horse looked towards Eorl and came and stood before him. And Eorl said, felarof, I name you. You loved your freedom, and I do not blame you for that. But now you owe me a great Weregild, and you shall surrender your freedom to me until your life's end. Then Eorl mounted him, and Felarof submitted, and Eorl rode him home without bit or bridle, and he rode him in like fashion ever after. The horse understood all that men said, though he would allow no man but Eorl to mount him. It was upon Felaroth that Eorl rode to the field of Celebrant, for that horse proved as long lived as men, and so were his descendants. These were the Miras who would bear no one but the King of the Mark or his sons until the time of Shadowfax. Men said of them that Baema, whom the Eldar call Orome, must have brought their sire from West Oversea. Oh, I love that story of Felleroth.

[Matt]

It's A fun story.

[Alan Sisto]

So good.

[Matt]

Now, we skipped the first paragraph that mentions a few of the early heroes of the Eotheod, but we should give them their due here in this discussion.

[Alan Sisto]

Absolutely. First, though, the brief text here in appendix A focuses on the kings of Rohan and not their queens or other women of Rohan or the Eotheod. I do love how the text here makes it absolutely crystal clear there were many fair and valiant women and that they are named in the songs that the people of Rohan sing about their time in the North.

[Matt]

Yeah. And it makes me curious, you know, to hear some of those stories. Like, there's so many times I want.

[Alan Sisto]

To know those stories.

[Matt]

There's so many times where I think, like, what if. What if Tolkien was. You know, nowadays, if you have a successful book, you're just an author and you just write all the time.

[Alan Sisto]

Like, what if he wouldn't have to do anything else? He wouldn't be teaching.

[Matt]

What if he didn't have to?

[Alan Sisto]

Grading papers, right?

[Matt]

Yeah, grading papers. Goodness. But it is cool to know that they exist and that Eowyn comes from a people who historically recognize the valor and bravery of their own women.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. I mean, it wasn't a surprise that she was a shield maiden. That was a known role. And that's because we have a history here and. Yeah, I just want to hear more. It kind of bums me out that we only get stories of really two of these heroes of the north here in this moment, you know, that is to say, prior to them becoming the Rohirrim. And the first is the story of Frumgar, the chieftain who led them from their home in the central vales of Anduin up north. And we mentioned this earlier in talking about their move in third age, 1977, after the defeat of the Witch King.

[Matt]

Of course, this was only 120 years after Marquini, son of Marhari, led some of the Northmen to the Anduin and established the Eothea. It seems likely that Fromgar is Marquini's great grandson and was the fourth lord of the Eotheod when he led them north.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Now, it's also possible that the first and only city that they built in the North, Fromsberg, was named after Frumgar's son, Fram. But we'll get to him next because he's the other story in the North, Fram the Dragon Slayer, I'd say. Fram it from the dragon Slayer, from the dwarf, Taunter. I love this guy.

[Matt]

Yes. Yeah, he's said to have killed the dragon Scatha, a long worm hailing from the arid Mithrin, the gray mountains that ran east west from the misty mountains north of Mirkwood. The text here doesn't give us any clues about Scatha, but we know from the chapter Many Partings that he had a horn in his hoard that had been made by the dwarves.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Now in the recently released collected poems of J.R.R. tolkien, we actually get to read there three versions of a poem called Scatha the worm, written in 1954 while Tolkien was correcting the return of the King for publication.

[Matt]

Back then, he changed the story of the horn that Eowyn gave to Mary. Originally it was made for our forefathers by the dwarves. Then he changed his mind and had it made by the Dwarves and found in the hoard of Scatha the Worm.

[Alan Sisto]

And there in the poems as Scatha is described, he was gray, he was cold, he was silent, and he was blind. He crawled like a slow creeping death too horrible to flee from. Froze men with fear in his icy breath, and then crushed them, ground them under his long white belly. Ooh, Tolkien writes some creepy stuff, doesn't he?

[Matt]

He does, man.

[Alan Sisto]

No fire, no wings, and yet absolutely flippin terrifying.

[Matt]

Yeah, but Fram's killing of Skatha didn't win him any points with the Dwarves because he didn't return any of the hoard that they said belonged to them.

[Alan Sisto]

And more than just saying, no, sorry, you're not getting anything back. Finders keepers. He goes and makes a necklace of the teeth of the dragon and sends it to the Dwarves. Man, that is just.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I love that.

[Matt]

Oh, gosh. It's such a. Such an excellent troll job there.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, it is. He's tr. He's absolutely gotten under their skin here. No doubt.

[Matt]

Yeah. And. And then we get a. Some say that I don't want to believe, actually, but that the Dwarves killed him for it. Which I could.

[Alan Sisto]

I kind of. I don't want to believe it, but I can believe it. Yeah. I mean, keep in mind that I'm thinking of the same Dwarves that killed Fingal because he didn't want to pay them for. Right.

[Matt]

I mean, they've got it. Yeah, it could happen.

[Alan Sisto]

It depends on the Dwarves, I suppose. But I don't want to think of the House of Durin acting like this, but.

[Matt]

Right. Yeah, yeah, but they're. They're cousins. They're the. They're that branch of the family, you know?

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, those guys. Oh, no, Uncle So and so is coming to Thanksgiving. Oh man, I better watch out. Can I sit at the kids table? Well, I will say this though, for this idea that the Dwarves killed him for it. The fact that this began an animosity between the Eotheod and the Dwarves really does shed a bit more light on the way Eomer interacts with Gimli. When his Eiret encounters the three hunters in the Lord of the Rings, you know, there's automatically a bit more hostility and suspicion, isn't there?

[Matt]

There is. And it honestly kind of makes it it even more sweet that that Gimli would eventually settle in the glittering caves.

[Alan Sisto]

In Rohan and become genuinely friends. Yeah, I mean I love their banter about the. The women, the pretty women.

[Matt]

Oh yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Are you ready to tell me that Galadriel is the most beautiful woman?

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Better go get my sword because I don't think so.

[Matt]

I think it's Arwen. And then it's like, oh, okay, fine, agree to disagree, whatever, you know, like, yeah, I just love that Gimli's ready to throw down with anybody over like you dare say anything bad about Galadriel. But yeah, I do love that. That's one of those. One of those things you can only get from the books because it's so such a small detail.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly.

[Matt]

It would never make it into an adaptation. Maybe if it's a long drawn out TV series or something. But the friendship between Amer and Gimli is pretty awesome.

[Alan Sisto]

I do love that Gimli is such a good example of that. I mean, I'm thinking even of his. Just his friendship with Legolas too, obviously breaking so many traditions there. But yeah, fantastic stuff.

[Matt]

Now before we move on, a little word nerdery on the names here. Allan, will you do the honors?

[Alan Sisto]

I will indeed. Well, like the Rohirric names after him, Frumgar's name is Old English and it means chieftain, leader or prince. And you're going to find, by the way, that a whole lot of Old English names for leader or prince or things like that. But in this case the literal meaning of his name is first spear, which I like. And again, that's very typical in terms of what they expect from their leader or their chieftain. It's interesting though, in particular because Frumgar is the first lord of the Eotheod with an Old English name. His ancestors, Forthwini and Marquini, one of the ones you mentioned earlier, as well as the ones before them, all had names in Gothic. And for a little bit more on that, you should go back to the discussions that Don and I had about the connections between the Northmen and the Goths as being parallel to the connections between the Rohirrim and Old English. It's really fascinating because Tolkien, again, because of his linguistics background, is creating these sort of histories so that we can actually see the Northmen who are in Gothic become the Rohirrim who are Old English become connected to the Hobbits who are speaking something in between and still have these memories of old words. It's really fascinating stuff. And reading his notes in the appendices on the languages is just eye opening. It's fantastic stuff. Now going on with more names. Fromm's name is Old English for valiant, stout or firm. And then we get scatha. His name is based on Old English scatha, which means injurer, enemy or robber. And as you could probably tell just by listening to the word, it is related to the Modern English verb to scathe, which we typically use only in the unscathed. Right. We don't often say that something is scathed. We might say something is scathing, like scathing review.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

But typically we use it in the negative, as in, I've come through that unscathed.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And now, picking up where you started reading again, we get a lot of stuff.

[Alan Sisto]

So much paragraphs. I know.

[Matt]

Yeah. We get the name of Erol's father, Laodice, and we don't know how many lords of the Eotheod led them between from sometime early in the 21st century of the Third Age and Laod some 500 years later. But what we do know about Laod is that his name is poetic Old English for prince, and that he was known for taming the wild horses that roamed the area.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. And that leads us straight into the story that we did read, the story of Felaroth, though we don't get his name right away. A white foal that Layout captured when he was young and cared for and took care of as it grew, but it was untamable.

[Matt]

Yeah. And when Laod tried to tame it, the horse rode off, threw him, and the fall kills him. And that promotes Eorl to the lord of his people at the age of 16.

[Alan Sisto]

Wow, that is young. That is really young.

[Matt]

You can't barely drive a car, let alone.

[Alan Sisto]

Seriously, come on. Let alone a horse. He is very young. I mean, in fact, I think he ends up being only 25 when he answers the call to go and save Gondor. Just still a Very young man. Especially when we see that so often these men are becoming kings and a ceding to the throne when they're in their 50s or 60s.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

It does make me think, though, that if you are a lord or a king of people, maybe you should take up, I don't know, stamp collecting or podcasting as a hobby rather than, I don't know, taming wild horses. But that's just me.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Maybe not bungee jumping either, for that matter.

[Matt]

Yeah, the heart wants what it wants, you know, he's just following the call.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right.

[Matt]

So Erol starts out for vengeance, and he hunts down the horse. But when they find him, instead of trying to kill him, Aorl calls to him and says, come here, man killer and get a new name.

[Alan Sisto]

I love this. And, you know, I'm thinking what a cool story this would be to do an adaptation of. I don't know, it maybe just be an episode in a TV show, but because I don't know that you could stretch the whole thing into two hours. I mean, you could if you included the. The Rohirrim or the Aotheod coming down to save Gondor.

[Matt]

It'd be like an anthology, like an animated anthology series of Middle Earth would be kind of cool.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, I do love this, though. I mean, the fact that he's. Everybody's expecting him to kill this horse. I mean, that's vengeance. That's what it is. Right? You killed my father. Now prepare to die. You know? Yes, my dad. My name is eorl. You killed my father. Prepare to die. He calls out to the horse. Hey. Hey, you. I'm talking here. Come over here.

[Matt]

Get over here.

[Alan Sisto]

And the horse actually complies.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And Eorl does give him a new name, Feleroff, which is also Old English for very valiant, very strong.

[Matt]

Yeah. And EORL here, he acknowledges that the horse loves his freedom, which who doesn't, let's be honest. But now he owes EORL because of the death of his father. We get that word wereguild.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, exactly. That's the idea of wereguild. It's a price paid for causing the death of someone. And it actually comes up again in this chapter. I don't know if it'll come up in this episode. I'm not sure whether we get there or not. I am so tempted to do a long digression on the idea of weregild, but I'm going to save that for the P5. It's a really interesting concept.

[Matt]

Now, that price, that Felarov has to give is to give up your freedom to AORL for the rest of your life. And Felaroff Submitted written by AORL without any gear. By the way, I love this.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean not only did the horse understand the speech, like hear the speech, he. He comprehended what it meant to the point of okay, you know, I. I do owe you this. This was. I killed your father. I'm going to go ahead and.

[Matt]

My bad.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, exactly. Okay, I guilty as charged. The horse could understand the speech of men. But those men better not say can I have a ride? Because the answer is going to be no for everyone. But a oral.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And yeah, so it was nine years later. So. Yeah, nine years. So he was 25 when Aorl Road feller off to the battle of the field of Kellerant that we talked about earlier.

[Matt]

Yeah, and that was just the beginning because he lived for another 35 years until we'll get to that later on.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, we will at some point.

[Matt]

But what's especially important about Fer off is that he was the father of the Meras, the horses that bore the kings of Rohan and their heirs. And eventually as we know, Gandalf as Shadowfax was one of those Meras.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. And we even get the really cool mythology that Orame himself, right? The hunter of the Valar, or as they call him, Bema, brought the original sire of the Maeras over here to Middle Earth from Valinor. Is this one of those some says that we believe is true?

[Matt]

I mean, I like it.

[Alan Sisto]

I do too.

[Matt]

It's really cool.

[Alan Sisto]

Some creatures from Valinor have made it over here, right? I mean we know that Orime brought Huon over. Well, he was given to Celegorm, but yeah.

[Matt]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

So he comes over to Middle Earth. Is it possible also that Orame brought over the sire of the Meras?

[Matt]

I think so. I mean, yeah. And I've. I've seen you know, people theorize like oh, is. Is Nahar himself, you know, the.

[Alan Sisto]

Like the sire of the Miras.

[Matt]

Yeah, the sire. Yeah. So like you know, I mean he's still a horse. Like he's a really awesome horse, but he's still a horse. So you know, whether that's two horses that Orame owned in Valinor and then their offspring dwell in Middle Earth. Or you know. Yeah, maybe Nahar's. Nahar's wife is a long distance relationship and she's in Middle Earth. I don't know.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh man, I like that. I actually, now that I think about it, There was a letter that Tolkien wrote and I'm just looking it up right now. It's letter 268. It was written in 1960 and it was in response to the question of whether Shadowfax went with Gandalf over. Oh, yeah, over the sea at the end. And of course, you know, he says, yeah, I think Shadowfax certainly went with Gandalf, though this is not stated. He explains why sometimes I don't tell you everything because you know that the accounts of real history, many facts are omitted. But his point is that he is, as it were, an Elvish equivalent of ordinary horses. His blood came from west overseas. So I think Tolkien there is confirming what is here given as a possible mythology. So, yeah, it's not even in doubt anymore. That is exactly what happened now in terms of their spirits being like the elves of horses. Whether or not Orome himself brought him over doesn't matter. They got over here somehow and they are native to Valinor. In that sense, they belong in the West. Yeah.

[Matt]

Which is pretty awesome.

[Alan Sisto]

That really is awesome.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And you know what else is awesome? The story of Helm Hammerhead start. And folks, I'm just going to tell you right now, I cannot promise that we will actually finish this story, this episode. I want to, and we probably will, but I'm just warning you now, be ready to wait a week.

[Matt]

It's, it's, it's already getting long. Like.

[Alan Sisto]

I know.

[Matt]

And we haven't even got to Helm Hammer hand.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I know. That's wild, man. So, all right, Matt, read a little bit about Helm and Freca.

[Matt]

All right. Of the kings of the mark between Eorl and Theoden, most is said of Helm Hammerhand. He was a grim man of great strength. There was at that time a man named Freca who claimed descent from King Freowena. Though he had, men said, much Dunlandish blood and was dark haired, he grew rich and powerful, having wide lands on either side of the adorn near its source. He made himself a stronghold and paid little heed to the king. Helm mistrusted him, but called him to his councils, and he came when it pleased him. To one of these councils, Freca rode with many men and he asked the hand of Helm's daughter for his son Wulf. But Helm said, you have grown big since you were last here. But it is mostly fat, I guess. And men laughed at that. For Freca was wide in the belt then Freca, it's just such a great insult, man. He was wide in the belt like it's such a nice way to say, like, yep, he was fat.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. I mean, he could just pull the old Aragorn reference and be like, you know, a fat innkeeper who only remembers his name because it shouted at him all day.

[Matt]

But that's so much more direct this. Wide in the belt.

[Alan Sisto]

Wide in the belt. It's such a subtle way of.

[Matt]

It's a poetic way to say it.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, poetic. Body shaming. All right.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt. Yeah.

[Matt]

Then Freca fell in a rage and reviled the king and said this at the last. Old kings that refuse a proffered staff may fall on their knees. Helm answered, come, the marriage of your son is a trifle. Let Helm and Freca deal with it later. Meanwhile, the king and his council have matters of moment to consider. When the council was over, Helm stood up and laid his great hand on Freca's shoulder, saying, the king does not permit brawls in his house, but men are freer outside. And he forced Freca to walk before him out from Edoras into the field. To Freca's men that came up, he said, be off. We need no hearers. We are going to speak of a private matter alone. Go and talk to my men. And they looked and saw that the king's men and his friends far outnumbered them, and they drew back. Now, dunlending, said the king, you have only Helm to deal with alone and unarmed. But you have said much already and it is my turn to speak. Freca, your folly has grown with your belly. You talk of a staff. If Helm dislikes a crooked staff that is thrust on him, he breaks it. So with that he smote Freca such a blow with his fist that he fell back stunned and died soon after. Helm then proclaimed, Freca's son and near kin the king's enemies, and they fled. For at once Helm sent many men riding to the west marches.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, and now we arrive at the story of Helm Hammerhand, the story that lies at the heart of a film that for you, dear listeners, has just come out, but for us is still a month away. And so, before we get into the story, I just want to tell you, kind of give you our plans, what we're doing for that. Though by now maybe it'll actually be out. Matt and I are going to go and see the film, obviously, as soon as we're physically able to do so, and then we will pop in the booth and record like a 30 minute review that will become a separate episode for you on the feed. Unnumbered or numbered like 352.5 or something like that. But what we'll do is we'll only leave that up for a couple of weeks and then we will put in as the introductory segment for a later episode and remove it from the feed. That way you'll get a chance to hear it right away. But then we won't mess up the feed and make it, you know, all cluttered. We'll just put it in as, as a permanent element to one of the later episodes. So we're really looking forward to it, even though many of you listening to this have already seen it. So once again, the challenges of time travel.

[Matt]

But getting back to the text, we've skipped over a bit of the, the first line of the kings of rohan and some 200 to 250 years to 2754. But don't worry, we'll get you up to speed on those happenings later. This episode actually might not be later this episode.

[Alan Sisto]

Right?

[Matt]

Yeah, we're kind of long winded today, but whenever we get there we'll, we'll talk about the lines of the kings. But for now we're told of Helm Hammerhand, a man described as grim and possessing great strength.

[Alan Sisto]

And of course I'm going to do a little word nerdery. His name, Helm, is Old English and means protection. Obviously Helm and helmet. Those, those are the same concepts. We're also told about another man named Freca, and that's Old English for bold man, warrior, hero. He's said to be descended from one of the kings of Rohan, Frewena, who we'll talk about later, four generations prior to Helm, but who appears to have been also of Dunlending origin. We talk about the dark hair. That's a clue because if you remember, the Rohirrim are descended from the house of Hador, which are, you know, tall and blond. And the fact that the Dunlendings can have dark hair suggests that they are from different descent. We do know that the ancestors of the Dunlendings, and this is something that we find in of Dwarves and Men in the peoples of Middle Earth. The ancestors of the Dunlendings were also the ancestors of the Haladin, the second of the three houses of the Edain, the reclusive ones that kept themselves separate from the Beoreans and the Hadorians. And their language was different from those spoken by the others. So a little bit more on the history of these people.

[Matt]

Yes. Now, getting back to the story at hand or fist here, Frecko was a rich man with lands on both sides of the Adorn. That's a tributary of the Isen that began in the White Mountains and flowed northwest until it reached the Isen halfway to the sea.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, in Kyrion and Aoral, we'll learn that the Adorn is the western boundary of Rohan. So it's interesting that Freca had lands on both sides of it. Yeah, and that certainly lends even more credence to his connection to the Dunlendings.

[Matt]

Yeah, and his base was near the source of the Adorn in the White Mountains. And he basically set up his own little realm, ignoring Helm's kingship. He kind of. He shows up when he wants to, but. But Helm wisely doesn't trust him and also wisely called him to councils. You know, keep your friends close, but your enemies closer maybe.

[Alan Sisto]

Absolutely. No doubt about it. I mean, I don't want this guy out on the marches of my territory being able to continue to raise power without having communication with him. So Helm calls him to a council, Freca shows up with his entourage, proposing an alliance by marriage of his son Wolf and Helm's unnamed daughter, who of course is Helen, etc in the War of the Rohirrim. And let's just say this went over poorly.

[Matt]

Yeah. Helm responds with some body shaming and Frecka's not too happy about that. And he returns the favor with an old man insult. So we get. We get fat jokes and old jokes.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I mean, it's sort of like you and I, we could re do that and just play that part.

[Matt]

We probably could. I think. I think Alan just. Just called me fat. So there we go.

[Alan Sisto]

I think he just called me old. Every episode we've ever done.

[Matt]

That's true.

[Alan Sisto]

Don't worry, man. I'm not going to punch you, let alone kill you with one punch. You're just too valuable a co host.

[Matt]

Now Helm just wants to get on with business and suggests the two of them can handle this after the council itself is complete.

[Alan Sisto]

I love the way he puts it like, can we table this? Can we? Let's put a pin in this and come back to it. Right. But then we get the confrontation itself, as Helms suggests they take it outside. I'm not sure Freck is actually up for this fight. Right. He's forced to walk the city into the fields surrounding it. I'm sort of thinking like, well, I don't really want to do this. I am a little wide in the belt and you are notorious. So I'm not sure I want to do this. But Helm sends Frecka's men away. Look, you know, it's just going to be the two of us. And Helm reminds Frecka, it's just the two of us. Now you've got me alone and unarmed.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah. And Helm gets straight to the point. You know, you've. You've talked a lot of trash and now I've got something to say. And you're as foolish as you are fat.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I love the way he puts that. And again, he refers to himself in the third person. I don't think we've pointed that out yet, but look at how many times he does that. You know, he says that let Helm and Freca deal with it later. Then he says the king does not permit brawls in his house. Then he says something like, you have only Helm to deal with. So if Helm dislikes a crooked staff. So he's very much a third person sort of reference to himself.

[Matt]

Interesting.

[Alan Sisto]

Which is in fact very interesting. So he uses Frecka's words about the staff against him. And then one punches him, just flat out decks him. You got to think, if you're Frecka, don't you see this coming? I mean, I don't think this was a jab, a killing blow. Like this has to be, you know, a massive.

[Matt]

It's got to be some wind uppercut or hook.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, exactly. Brutal though.

[Matt]

And we, we read that Freca falls and dies shortly after this. And at which point Helm declares that Frecka's son and other near family members are officially enemies of the king. And he sends riders out towards his home.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, exactly. So, I mean, Wolf and everybody else is kind of like, we got. We better get back to the house. Because he's just sent riders out to, you know, wipe out our people. So it's, it's definitely.

[Matt]

It escalated quickly. That's what happened.

[Alan Sisto]

It escalated quickly. It sure did. Well, just as Helm declared that Frecka's son and his family members are officially enemies of the king, we are declaring that it's time for an ad break. We'll be right back. It's the new year, so it's time to start turning your resolutions into reality. I know for me that means getting back to the gym after a rough year, fitness wise and, well, without getting too blunt. That also means trying to smell better. And there's a resolution we could all use. I've been using Mando. It's a whole body deodorant. I've been using it for a few weeks now. And I've really been happy with. Well, with Smelling Better. Mando is a whole body deodorant, so you don't just use it on your armpits. Any place on your body that could use a bit of odor control. You can use Mando there, yes there too. It's proven to block and control odors all day, even in this tiny podcast booth. And it's available in solid stick spray or even cream. Now. Personally, I like the Pro Sport scent, but Bourbon leather is pretty nice too. Now, as a special offer for our listeners, new customers, get $5 off a starter pack with our exclusive code. Now that equates to over 40% off your starter pack. Use code [e-mail] S H O P M A N D O.com Please support our show and tell them we sent you Smell fresher, stay drier and boost your confidence with Mando. Now folks, if you're enjoying the ppp, please consider supporting the show by joining the Fellowship of the Podcast. It's what gives me the time and resources to work on making this show better every season. And when you join, you get the best Discord community around. That includes live episode recordings, hangouts every month. You also get episode postscripts, ad free episodes, free merch, and more.

[Matt]

You also can become part of our Questions After Nightfall episodes or even join us as a guest in the North Wing. So Please go to patreon.com prancingponypod to show your support and join the Fellowship of the Podcast.

[Alan Sisto]

You can always help us out by giving us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts and a rating on Spotify. And please recommend us to your friends.

[Matt]

Well, with that, let's get back to the text and we're in for a long winter.

[Alan Sisto]

Alan Four years later 2758 great troubles came to Rohan, and no help could be sent from Gondor, for three fleets of the Corsairs attacked it, and there was war on all its coasts at the same time. Rohan was again invaded from the east, and the Dunlendings, seeing their chance, came over the Isen and down from Isengard. It was soon known that Wulf was their leader. They were in great force, for they were joined by enemies of Gondor that landed in the mouths of Lefnui and Isen. The Rohirrim were defeated, and their land was overrun, and those who were not slain or enslaved fled to the dales of the mountains. Helm was driven back with great loss from the crossings of Isis, and took refuge in the Hornburg and The ravine behind which was after known as Helm's Deep. There he was besieged. Wulf took Edoras and sat in Meduseld and called himself king. There Haleth, Helm's son, fell last of all, defending the doors. Soon afterwards the long winter began and Rohan lay under Snow for nearly five months November to March, 2758,59 both the Rohirrim and their foes suffered grievously in the cold and in the dearth that lasted longer in Helm's Deep there was a great hunger after Yuhl and being in despair against the king's counsel Hama, his younger son, led men out on a sortie and foray but they were lost in the snow. Helm grew fierce and gaunt for famine and grief and the dread of him alone was worth many men in the defense of the burg. He would go out by himself clad in white and stalk like a snow troll into the camps of his enemies and slay many men with his hands. It was believed that if he bore no weapon, no weapon would bite on him. The Dunlendings said that if he could find no food, he ate men. That tale lasted long in Dunland. Helm had a great horn and soon it was marked that before he sallied forth he would blow a blast upon it that echoed in the deep. And then so great a fear fell on his enemies that instead of gathering to take him or kill him they fled away down the Coombe. One night Men heard the horn blowing but Helm did not return. In the morning there came a sun gleam the first for long days. And they saw a white figure standing still on the dike alone for none of the Dunlendings dared come near. There stood Helm, dead as a stone but his knees were unbent. Yet Men said that the horn was still heard at times in the deep and the wraith of Helm Helm would walk among the foes of Rohan and kill Men with fear. Soon after the winter broke. Then Frealaf, son of Hild, Helm's sister, came down out of Dunharrow to which many had fled and with a small company of desperate men he surprised Wulf and Meduseld and slew him and regained Edoras. There were great floods after the snows and the Vale of Entwash became a vast fence. The eastern invaders perished or withdrew and there came help at last from Gondor by the roads both east and west of the mountains. Before the year 2759 was ended the Dunlendings were driven out even from Isengard. And then Frealaf became king. Helm was brought from the Hornburg and laid in the ninth mound ever after. The white Cymblmena grew there most thickly so that the mound seemed to be snow clad. When Freyalaf died, a new line of mounds was begun. Oh, lots to unpack here. I'm excited.

[Matt]

Good stuff.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, it is.

[Matt]

Now fast forward four years after the death of Freca and the declaration of his kin as foes to Helm to the year 2758. And Rohan is in trouble.

[Alan Sisto]

They are indeed.

[Matt]

Yeah. While their mutual aid pact with Gondor is still very much a thing Gondor isn't able to help them. That's gonna be a theme, by the way because they're currently under attack from three different Corsair fleets. From Umbar.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Now, we talked about this from the Gondorian perspective just two episodes ago. This happened under the leadership of the steward baron. And those fleets are said to have attacked as far north as the mouth of the Isen.

[Matt]

Yeah. But Rohan is being attacked from the east so presumably Easterlings and by Dunlendings from Isengard.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, wait, Isengard? How is that. I mean, Isengard's to the north of Rohan. Well, in Unfinished Tales, in the Battle of the Fords of Isen which you and I will get to in March we read that during the reign of King Deor and that's Helm's grandfather, who ruled from 2699 to 2780 the line of the Gondorian chieftains of Angernost had failed and command of the fortress of Isengard passed into the hands of a family of the people. These, as has been said, were already long before of mixed blood. And they were now more friendly disposed to the Dunlendings than to the wild Northmen who had usurped the land. With Minas Tirith far away they no longer had any concern.

[Matt]

Yeah, as it turns out, the Dunlendings who'd been allowed into the fortress as supposed friends had taken Isengard and killed the survivors of the ancient guards. The steward of Gondor at that time, Egilmoth, received word but couldn't do anything about it. And these Dunlendings were strengthened by enemies of Gondor. Read Corsairs of Umbar who landed at the mouths of the rivers of Lefnui and Isaac.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, we've looked at the Isen before, right? Its mouth lay on the western shore. The Isen takes a west turn after the fords of Isen, right? It comes down from Isengard due south. And after it hits the fords, it heads west, almost due west. Now, the Lefnui also has its source in the White Mountains, but on the southern side. And it runs down west of Pinath Gelin. And it separates the Cape of Andrast from the rest of Gondor. So that means you've got Corsairs coming from the west and from the southwest of the White Mountains, pairing up with the Dunlendings coming from the north in Isengard, all while Rohan is being attacked in the east as well. This is definitely a problem.

[Matt]

Yeah. And it's essentially a total defeat for Rohan. Let's not underestimate how bad of a situation they've got.

[Alan Sisto]

Do not sugarcoat this. They are wiped out. Just about.

[Matt]

Yeah. Their. Their entire land is overrun. They've got a handful of survivors flee into the mountains. Helm and his forces retreat from the crossings and go to the Hornburg. And that's what we all know as Helm's Deep.

[Alan Sisto]

Right now there. Helm is besieged. And in the meantime, Wolf takes the capital and declares himself king. I. I can promise, though, it'll be a short reign. Helm's eldest son, Haleth, the heir to the throne, is killed defending the doors to Med. Giselle. And naming things here. Haleth. Haleth is Old English for man, warrior or hero, but it is not to be confused with Haleth of the Halidin in the first age. In the language of the Haladin, the element hal meant chief or guard, and her name Haleth appears to use the Sindarin feminine suffix eth. So same name, totally different meaning, totally different language base.

[Matt]

Yeah. And by the way, the. The name Haleth in the. In the films.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yeah.

[Matt]

Used as. That's the kid that Aragorn says this is a good sword. Yeah. The son of Hama, which is the other son of Helm.

[Alan Sisto]

So the door word. Yeah, exactly.

[Matt]

Now, the Long Winter begins shortly after all of this and it's said to run from November to March. So this was a summer attack into early autumn, perhaps.

[Alan Sisto]

That's what I would guess. I mean, that typically makes sense. You certainly wouldn't make attacks in the winter.

[Matt]

I wouldn't think so.

[Alan Sisto]

For your own reasons, just logistically. But it does seem like they had enough time to settle in before the winter hit.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah. And, you know, so there's snow on the ground for almost five full months. And like, if you look at a map of Middle Earth, this is pretty far south to have snow on the ground for five.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, this is like the south of France or north of Italy in terms of latitude. I mean, yes, you'll have snow there in the Alps, but you're not going to have snow at the lower elevation. Certainly not for five months.

[Matt]

Yes. Now both sides are suffering a lot here. So, you know, it's not just the Rohirrim and they're not just suffering in winter, but in the long term due to the impact of, of things like crops and farmland. It's a bad situation for everybody.

[Alan Sisto]

It really is. Of course, Helm and his people are the ones that are under siege. They're in near starvation mode at this point. And his remaining son, and this is right after Yule, so we're talking about early January, Hama, which is old English of home. So it's a really nice, simple name. He leads some men out on a sortie and to scavenge for some food. But they get lost in the snow and they're never heard from again. So they're dead. We never find them. So that is the moment that the legend of Helm Hammerhund is born. The grief and starvation drive him to this terrifying ferocity. And I love the way the text text puts it. He's worth many men in the defense. Just his fear alone or the fear that he sort of propagates is a huge value in defense of, of the, the Hornberg.

[Matt]

Yeah. And we read that he'd go out into the camps of the Dunlendings wearing all white as camouflage in the snow and kill his enemies with his bare hands. It's so cool.

[Alan Sisto]

I love that. Absolutely love that. And Freck is like, yeah, yeah, he can do that.

[Matt]

Yeah. And an interesting bit of kind of the legend here, you know, it says the belief that if he didn't carry a weapon, a weapon couldn't harm him. That's probably not true and I wouldn't recommend it. If you ever in a, in a battle situation, don't, don't go by that advice.

[Alan Sisto]

That's what I'm thinking. I'm not sure I'm going to count on that to, to hold true. So it's an interesting part of the legend. There is another part of the legend, certainly not true, and that was the Dunlending belief that he ate men if he couldn't find food.

[Matt]

I mean, they were starving, so I.

[Alan Sisto]

Mean, yeah, they were starving, but these are men. But really, if you think that he eats men if he can't find food, how about leaving out a plate of milk and cookies, right?

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Maybe this guy coming to your camp during winter Looking for food. Maybe he's like a Middle Earth Santa Claus.

[Matt]

Santa Claus. Oh, well, we got him in Narnia, so let's get him in Middle Earth too.

[Alan Sisto]

Except instead of bringing gifts, he's bringing death.

[Matt]

Death? Yeah. Unless you leave out cookies. That's the trade off.

[Alan Sisto]

You don't want to be eaten, all you gotta do is leave me some food. Right?

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, it's pretty easy.

[Matt]

Yeah. Now that part of the legend stuck around with the Dunlendings. But remember, these folk seem to believe the most outlandish things. Recall that they were told by Saruman that the Rohirrim burned their captives alive.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. I mean that was after the battle of Helm's Deep where some of them surrendered. They were terrified because they believed what Saruman had said. I don't know. It's one of those things. Where is this self fulfilling prophecy kind of thing, right? I mean maybe the Dunlendings believe that later lie because this part of the legend of Helm Hammerhand stuck around for so long. Or maybe they really are just a. I don't want to say gullible people people, but of people who will believe really dark myths.

[Matt]

Well, and I'm sure things like that, you know, they. They would pop up when there's so much conflict between two peoples. You know, like we. We only see hints of it here. Yeah. But like. Like, you know, Tolkie makes it clear the Dunlendings and Rohan have a lot. You know, even beyond what's. What's explicitly told about.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

You know, these. These guys are in conflict. Liked a lot.

[Alan Sisto]

They really are. Yeah.

[Matt]

Now a part of the legend that's definitely true. He had a great horn and apparently he blew it before he came out to do his dirty work. Which. That's courage right there. You know, like I'm coming. Heads up. You know, better hide, leave. Leave out some cookies. Because I'm coming.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm coming for you. That's right.

[Matt]

And I just love that like you know, you have no. A successful siege. Like you have to have a certain number of people there. And instead of everyone banding together to kill this guy, they run away every time the horn blows.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh no. The horn's blowing.

[Matt]

Go. Get out of here.

[Alan Sisto]

Hey, Matt. I don't have to be faster than Helm Hammerhand. I just have to be faster than you.

[Matt]

That's right. Yeah, that's. That's their. That's their motto there.

[Alan Sisto]

It really is. But sadly, one night after the horn blows and Helm leaves, he didn't come back and when the sun rose, and it was the first time that there was a nice clear sunrise too, right? The weather finally starting to take a change. They could see a man standing frozen on the dyke. And it was Helm, dead, but standing upright, terrifying the Dunlenings and frankly terrifying me. That's a pretty intense imagination to see, you know, a dead man standing there on the dyke, ready to kill you. But he's dead. More legend. I love this. The horn would then be heard at other times. And when that happened, his Wraith would go out and kill men with fear alone. I want to talk a little bit about that in light particularly of a decision that one adaptation made. And in this case, it's not a movie. It's not a television show. It's the video game. And I can't remember now if it's Shadow of Mordo or Shadow of War. I think it's Shadow of Shadow War. Okay, so it's the second war is the helmet.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

It's the one where all the people. You get a ring and you get a ring and you get a ring.

[Matt]

Everybody. Isildur's a Nazgul. Everybody gets to be a Nazgul.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. And in that game, they make Helm Hammerhand into a Ringwraith.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Interesting. I don't like it. I don't like it at all. But talk about this idea of him actually being a Wraith. Legendary, real. How does this work? What's the mechanics behind it? What do you think?

[Matt]

Yeah, I mean, this is a world where wraiths exist. You know, like there's precedent there. Like, there's obviously the ring wraiths, but I mean, but those are of course.

[Alan Sisto]

Were mortal men who aren't really dead, you know?

[Matt]

Yeah, but I mean, even the. Like think of the army of the Dead, the dead men of Dunharrow, like, you know, this is. This is a world where. Where that's a thing. I don't know. I mean, Dunlendings and Rohirrim do have some mixed ancestry and everything. So the dead men of Dunharrow, like, that's a legend that would feasibly pass to the Dunlending. So it's not like that's true. The. The idea of spiritual wraith like beings.

[Alan Sisto]

The Men of the Mountain were in fact done lending or at least. Right.

[Matt]

Yes. Oh, yeah, Totally. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I like to think that I still struggle with it because of the whole Gift of Iluvatar thing. Like the Oathbreakers, that is to say, the Men of the Mountain, the dead men of Dunharrow, are only there because they broke an oath. And Isildur's curse, which called on eru, essentially. Well, it didn't directly call on him, but any oath is going to sort of involve that. And they're punished by the gift of Iluvatar being withdrawn until they, you know, fulfill their oath. But you do have other wraiths, right? You have the Barrow wights. Similar kind of concept, the idea of these spirits. Because in theory, the spirits of men, upon their death are supposed to leave.

[Matt]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Go to kind of a waiting room in the Halls of Mandas before they get shipped off to where they go on.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And we know. And I'll have to look this up, but we know that elves can refuse their call to men and remain. And sometimes the ones that have turned bad, they just flee to Morgoth or to Sauron. And that's a terrifying thought, but can men do that? And I don't know that there's evidence to suggest that men's spirits can actually do that without outside interference in the case of the Barrow Wights, without the Witch King doing some sort of terrifying, some sort thing and basically sending those spirits over there. But all the whites are. They're bad guys. And Helm's not a great guy. He's sort of a dark, you know, what would you call him? Right. He's not a traditional hero. He's sort of an antihero in a way, but he's still a good guy in the sense that he wouldn't be a Ringwraith, he wouldn't be a Barrow White, and he wouldn't be an odd oath breaker. And those are the only examples I can think of. So.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

But I mean, this is how legends are born, though. Yeah. And, like, I think it's clear from the way Tolkien phrases it, too. Like, this is a legend. Like, he's not saying as the. The author and like the recounter of the story. Like, he makes it very clear, you know, this is a legend among the Dunlendings. You know, not that we are literally supposed to take it that well, but.

[Alan Sisto]

So many times we are supposed to take the some say, you know, things seriously.

[Matt]

That's where we have to use our discretion.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. We do. And this one says specifically, yet men said that the horn was still heard. And that's different from the whole some say, because I get the feeling that when he says, some say that Tuor was counted among the elves, or some say that this or that.

[Matt]

Yeah, it's kind of like some historians.

[Alan Sisto]

Some, you know, people who Write these accounts have said that this is true, as opposed to some of the men who, as we know, are kind of idiots. I mean.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

So I think I like the myth, but I think it's a. It's. It's truly just a legend in this case. But it's a lovely legend to have. Yeah.

[Matt]

Now, coming back to the text, winter, as it does always, eventually it breaks, unless you're in Narnia. That's a Narnia reference. There we go. But with winter breaks and a few of the survivors get together to form a small company of desperate men. Men.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Now, this company of men is led by Frealaf, which is Old English for surviving lord. The elements are Freya, lord or master, which we've seen also in Freyoina, and laugh, which means leaving. And he is the son of Helm's sister, Hild. They were able to take Etterus by surprise and kill Wolf, who. Well, yeah, it was about time.

[Matt]

And as the spring came, the circumstances turned against the invaders. Help. Help comes from Gondor by roads on both sides of the mountains.

[Alan Sisto]

I love that. There's no getting out now.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah. And before the end of 2759, all the Dunlendings were gone, including the ones at Isengard. And Freyalof Hildison was installed as king of Rohan, beginning the second line of kings. Now, that is the line that Theoden will be of.

[Alan Sisto]

So this is, in fact, Theoden will be the end of the second line.

[Matt]

He will be the end, yeah. Yes. Yeah, that's right.

[Alan Sisto]

So the body of Helm. Speaking of the end of the line, the body of Helm was put to rest in the ninth mound on the west, which marked the end of the first line. And symbolically, symbol Minna, or Evermind, grew there more thickly so that the hill looked like it was covered with snow. Though I have to say, one would imagine that Helm is pretty dang tired of the snow by now. Get the snow off my mound. I want it to be spring again, please.

[Matt]

But it's such striking imagery. I mean, it is, isn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

It really is.

[Matt]

Now, interestingly, all of this about Helm was developed late in the draft process for Tolkien. As we read in the Peoples of Middle Earth, the Making of Appendix A, Tolkien's first run through the house of Eorl was primarily concerned with the elaboration of the chronology in detail. And the text consists only of the names of the kings and their dates, with notes added to a few of them.

[Alan Sisto]

And then we read that in the note on Helm, however, is seen the first appearance of the tale told in Appendix A. Very hastily written and still undeveloped in his day. Speaking of Helm, there was an invasion from west of Dunlanders and of South Gondor by pirates and by Easterlings and orcs. In 2758, in the long Winter, they took refuge in Helm's Deep. Both his sons, Hama and Hale were killed lost in snow. Notice slightly different name for Haleth instead of that. And also that both of his sons died in the snow. Tolkien continues, at his death there was in the kingdom an upstart King Wulf, not of EORL's line, who with the help of Dunlanders, tried to seize the throne. Eventually Frealaf son of Hild, his sister and nearest heir, was victorious and became king. A new line of mounds was started to symbolize break in direct line. Very undeveloped. Right. You can sort of see him getting these ideas together. It's really interesting. I love looking at the behind the scenes and sort of seeing how he builds these storylines. Certainly the early versions of the line of Kings as we'll get to, were very bare.

[Matt]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

The bag was brought from the Hornburg and laid in the ninth mound ever after. The white envelopes grew there most thickly so that the mound seemed to be snow clad. When Barlamon died, well, we were all in trouble. Matt, what do we have in Barliman's bag tonight?

[Matt]

So Brian in Missouri is asking us about. This is appropriately timed here about the War of the Rohirrim movie with it coming out in December. What are you most eager to see adapted from this story? And do you have any predictions?

[Alan Sisto]

Okay, this is perfectly timed. I mean, obviously we've had this in the bag here for a few weeks, actually a couple of months, I think. And we pulled it out for this episode because we're talking about the exact moments in the film and because the movie just came out two days ago.

[Matt]

Yeah, so we're giving predictions as we're recording this over a month ahead of time.

[Alan Sisto]

We really are honestly recording this well ahead of time, as you know. Please. These predictions are predictions.

[Matt]

You guys can tell immediately how wrong or right we are on our predictions. Predictions.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. All right, I guess we'll start with the easy part first. What are we looking forward to in the story? Oh, man, all of it.

[Matt]

Yeah. So this is one of those things where I feel like seeing. Seeing some footage at New York ComicCon helps me out a little bit because the Wraith mode helm, as I would call it, like, it's. It's the Legend of the Wraith, not. He's like Shadow of Mordor, you know, like we said.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm hearing Jack Black singing the Legend of the Wraith is his past due.

[Matt]

I actually under. I got that reference.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm so glad you did a little School of Rock right there.

[Matt]

Yeah, I like it. I like, I need to show that movie to my kids. But, yeah, the. The. You know, seeing what was hinted at in that clip is seeing how the Legend of the Wraith of Helm Hammerhand is born. And, like, there's only a couple of them, but, like, the sound design for Helm's Punch was just like. Like, really satisfying. And. And the sound design really stuck out to me as I was seeing footage there.

[Alan Sisto]

I think that's something that. Yeah, when you're talking about an animated film in particular, the sound design is going to be really crucial. Even more so than in live action.

[Matt]

Well, and. And so in one of my. My interviews from. From New York Comic Con was with Jason DeMarco, who's one of the producers of the film.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, we met him at San Diego Comic Con. Yeah.

[Matt]

Yeah, we did. Yeah, he was. He was on the panel that I was on there, and he. He talked about at New York how they had folks from Park Road Post working on this film that had worked on all the other Middle Earth films. They, you know, because they have this special passion for Middle Earth, they put a lot of heart and soul into it. And he said that there's no way any other animated film, you don't get this level of sound design.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, that's great. Great.

[Matt]

So, yeah, I was, like, there were a moment I was, you know, just in the short bit that I was sitting there in the audience, I was like, oh, my gosh, this sounds amazing.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, I can't wait. That's really, really exciting to hear, man.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

What am I looking forward to the most? For me, obviously. I say obviously, but that's. It's only obvious to people who really, really know me. And the way I like to see adaptations, the moments that are most faithful to the text are the things I'm looking forward to seeing the most. So I really want to see the exact representation of Helm and Frea walking outside of EDAs and him dismissing his guys and saying, go stand over there. Talk to my guys. And. And having him use the words that are here because they're great words.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, I mean, he's insulting them, but. But in a way that we don't talk like this anymore. And that's the whole point. We don't want these people, people to talk like us. We want that archaism and that, that sort of old feeling.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, keeping in mind this is hundreds of years before the Lord of the Rings. Right. So we want it to sound even older than that.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

So those are the things I'm looking forward to, the most literal moments from the book. Literal moments.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

I, I also am hoping that the language is something that I think, think can be very tricky for, for writers and you know, to, to get that.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. So that it doesn't come off sounding stilted or fake.

[Matt]

Yes. Yeah. It's, it's a, it's an art form.

[Alan Sisto]

It's a fine line to draw.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And it's also going to be tough on the voice actors because you've got to be able to, to convey this archaic sounding thing without sounding like you're just trying to pretend.

[Matt]

Yes. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

So, yeah, it's a hard job all around and I'm looking forward to it. Predictions? Yeah, I predict I'm going to be annoyed by the Moomaq. No, I liked seeing that moment in the trailer that we saw in San Diego. We got about a five minute clip at San Diego Comic Con that included the Mumak and it was impressive looking and terrifying. And I can see where they're going with the story because we know that the three fleets of the Corsairs of Umbar were invading Gondor and that one of them landed as far north as the mouths of the ice. And so. Okay, but I don't know if the fleets of the Corsairs ever actually transported their Moomack, their kill. So on ships.

[Matt]

It's interesting because I've, I've done some looking into this and talking with other folks who are, who are more educated on like real world stuff.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I want to talk to Brett Devereux about this. Right. We had him on all of my.

[Matt]

Research is, is in Middle Earth, which can feel real, which is the magic of it.

[Alan Sisto]

But it feels very real. Yeah.

[Matt]

But yeah, so I, you know, because I, I thought of it as. Yeah, like there's the Corsairs of Umbar. You know, they're from Harad. They have Mumix there, they have Muma kill there. And Kelly from Happy Hobbit actually pointed out to me that there is an instance of Caesar transporting war elephants by ship. By ship for, for a certain war. So I was like, like that sounds good to me. So I don't know, I don't know.

[Alan Sisto]

How you Keep them from moving around too much on the boats. I mean, because you could imagine that.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Have a pretty high failure rate.

[Matt]

So. So there is that like 4 year gap too that we don't know what happens.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, they could definitely pull a sort of Hannibal over the Alps kind of thing and bring the. The Muma kill over the White Mountains. I don't know. My prediction, that was not obviously a very serious prediction, but my prediction is that for a specific prediction is that Hera, the unnamed daughter in the book, will end up being a part of that small group of people who go in after Helm's death and end up killing Wolf. I don't know if she himself will do that or not, or if it'll be Frelof, but I think she's going to be in that band of people. And I'm excited to see that.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Because again, Valiant Women, definitely a thing. I'm really annoyed at these people who, like, you have to have a girl boss, blah, blah, blah. Dude, the Rohirrim and the Eotheod before them and the Northmen before them had girl bosses, so just shut up. Right, right.

[Matt]

No, I mean, we just read the line.

[Alan Sisto]

We just read verbatim.

[Matt]

We're verbatim in this episode. Yeah. I think the fate of Hera is kind of a big. I don't necessarily have a prediction for it, but, like. Because we don't know what happened to like. No, the rest of Helm's line is wiped out. But, like, what happens to the daughter? I think Saruman's involved. Like before, way before it was revealed, I had predicted that Saruman was going to show up at the end. Yeah, that's been spoiled by the trailer. It has. But, yeah, I think that's probably going to be a pretty, Pretty, pretty small thing.

[Alan Sisto]

Like, I think it's going to be very small because didn't we hear recently that they're actually using Christopher Lee's voice? Not AI generated, but actual audio that was captured but not used for the Lord of the Rings films.

[Matt]

Yeah. Archival footage.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm excited to hear that.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, I may have gripes about the idea that they're just sort of going back to that. Well, but. But I think for this, it fits.

[Matt]

For. For this. Yes. If it's anything more than a cameo, like.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

And by cameo, I mean like, like the. The lightest cameo.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Like 60 seconds on screen at the most. Yeah.

[Matt]

Yes, exactly. Like if. If, like I'm expecting it to be a phrase or two at most. Yeah, I agree you know, like two lines of dialogue or something, maybe. Yeah, but any, anything more where it's like, oh, he's gonna be in a scene, a five minute scene or something like that. Then, then I cross into. Okay, you need to recast. Because when it comes down to it, it's, it's kind of like, you know, the numenorean Kings. Like there comes a time and that time comes to an end and when, when an actor passes away, it's sad and we miss them and we wish that we could see them again. But at the end of the day, like recreating a voice in AI it's not Christopher Lee performing, but I don't.

[Alan Sisto]

But they've said they're not going to do that, so I got to have to trust.

[Matt]

Yes, exactly. So I'm sorry, I'm getting on my AI soapbox a little bit.

[Alan Sisto]

Trust me, there's barely room on that soapbox because I've been standing on it.

[Matt]

For a long time. Yeah, but yeah, so, so I have a certain level of trust that, that, you know, they'll, they'll want to do it right and do it in a way that I think the involved, especially.

[Alan Sisto]

With Philippa Boyens involvement, you know, I mean, yeah, her, you know, being so very close to the production of the, the Jackson films. I mean she and Fran Walsh and Peter Jackson were the three writers for all of them. I, I feel like she's going to be super respectful of that. She's made it clear there's not gonna be any AI involved involved. So.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah, I excited about that. Here's, here's a, a fun prediction that I'm curious to see how, how it goes off. I wonder where it will rack up. Okay, this isn't a prediction, the first part here, but I wonder where it will stack up against the movie it's going up against is Craven, which is another one of those Sony Spider man movies without Spider man in it.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[Matt]

Yeah. So I'm curious to see how it does against that because it is animated. Like I think that will be a barrier for people. For some people, sadly.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

But if it, if it gets good reviews, I could see it having some, some legs when it comes to the box office. And I've, I've looked into this because this is just stuff that I find interesting and anime does not have this like really, you know, heavy hitter, box office, historic. Like no, as far as the charts, like I could see this movie climbing up the charts of all time anime movies in the U.S. yeah, yeah, pretty easily. Especially if it gets good reviews, I don't know how it'll do. Generally, I haven't seen. I wonder if it's been made public yet. Like how what the budget is on it, but because I could see this being. It's definitely not the expense of.

[Alan Sisto]

No, no, an animated film will not cost as much as a live action action film.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah, it'll be interesting. Yeah, I could see this being being an A. Well performing for what it is and everything. Like, I think I'm excited.

[Alan Sisto]

I really am looking forward to it. And I know we're still recording this way in advance of the movie's release, but you and I are going to. By the time this is released, by the time this episode is heard by people, you and I will have seen the movie. We will be working on our review and folks, you will get that really, really soon. For now though, that wraps it up for another episode of the Prancing Pony Podcast. Now we're going to be off the next two weeks for the winter holidays. I'm so sorry it's the long winter. We hope you don't starve to death. We hope that the Dun Dunnings leave out milk and cookies for you. But please be sure to come back in three weeks when we finish up. Appendix A to the House of EORL before beginning our long run through the story of Kyrion and eorl.

[Matt]

Now, Alan and I want to thank the members of Team ppp. As always, Editor Jordan Rannells Barlam and Becca Davis, social media manager Casey Hilsey, Event and Patreon community coordinator Katie McKenna, graphic artist Megan Collins and website guru Phil Dean.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, please take a minute to check out the prancingponypodcast.com that's where you'll find show notes, outtakes, Prancing Pony Ponderings, our online storefront where you can get PPP merch, including all the really cool episode artwork that Megan's done for the PPP over the last two seasons. And Matt, have you seen the Appendix A designs that she's done?

[Matt]

I have not got that. No.

[Alan Sisto]

Got the Gondor slash Numenor A. We've got the Rohan A and the Durin A. Oh, they are awesome. They are awesome.

[Matt]

I like that. I like it. Now, you'll also want to visit our library page. The Prancing Pony Podcast is, after all, a podcast about the books. So if you're interested in a book we mentioned on the show, you'll find a link for it in our library. And we do get a small amount of compensation when you make your purchase. And we thank you for that.

[Alan Sisto]

Indeed we do. And we also want to thank our patrons at the Kirdance contribution tier. I'll start with Demay in Alaska, Chad in Texas, Lance in New Jersey, Paul in Colorado, Joseph in Michigan, Kathy from North Carolina, Carlos in California, Brian in the uk, Jerry from Washington, Joe in Washington, Irwin from the Netherlands, Ben in Minnesota, Anthony in Texas, Karen in the uk, June in Ireland, Zaksu in Illinois, Sarah in New Jersey, Joshua in Massachusetts, Lucy in Texas, and Keith in Alabama.

[Matt]

There's also Erica in Texas, Carson in Oklahoma, Vivian in California, James in Massachusetts, Ann in Kentucky, Sean in New Jersey, Mason in California, Maureen from Massachusetts, Olivia in London, Robert in Arizona, Nick in Wisconsin, Lewis in South Carolina, Thomas in Germany, Craig in California, Bailey in Texas, Kevin in Massachusetts, Julie in Washington, Bruce in California, Joe in Maryland, and Nathan in Arizona. Thank you all so very much for your support indeed.

[Alan Sisto]

Thank you very, very much.

[Matt]

Make sure you don't miss any episodes of the Prancing Pony Podcast. Subscribe now through Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music or or your favorite podcast app.

[Alan Sisto]

And one last thing. As always, don't forget to send your thoughts, comments and most of all, well, your cookies and milk for Helm to BarlimanHeBrancingPonyPodcast.com and if you want your voice.

[Matt]

Literally heard, well, just send us audio of your question. Visit podinbox.com prancingponypod and record your question for us. Please be sure to still email the question to Barliman though.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right now. Even though Bartleman's been a lot more reliable, there is still a lot of mail to sort through. We'll try to get to you just as soon as we're able. As always, this has been far too short a time to spend among such excellent and admirable listeners. But until next time, this is the end.

[Matt]

We are going. We are leaving now. Goodbye.

[Alan Sisto]

How to have fun anytime anywhere. STEP 1 Go to chumbacasino.com chumbacasino.com Got it. STEP 2 Collect your welcome bonus. Come to papa.

[Matt]

Welcome bonus.

[Alan Sisto]

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