354 – Fight Fire With Northmen

Summary

The Prancing Pony Podcast - Episode 354: Fight Fire With Northmen

Release Date: January 12, 2025

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Introduction

In the latest installment of The Prancing Pony Podcast, hosts Alan Sisto and Shawn E. Marchese delve deep into the intricate lore of J.R.R. Tolkien's Middle-earth. Episode 354, titled "Fight Fire With Northmen," continues their exploration of Unfinished Tales, focusing on the alliances and conflicts that shape the destiny of Gondor and its allies.

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This Week in Tolkien History

January 12th Across the Ages

The episode kicks off with a segment dedicated to significant events in Tolkien's life that occurred on January 12th across different years:

• 1917: [03:03] Alan highlights that on this day, Tolkien's leave of absence from the army ended as he battled trench fever, a debilitating illness caused by lice-borne bacteria. Alan shares a poignant excerpt from John Garth's Tolkien of the Great War:

  "We anointed ourselves all over with the stuff and again lay down in great hopes. But instead of discouraging them, it seemed to act like a kind of hors d'oeuvre, and the little beggars went at their feast with renewed vigor." — [03:03] Alan

• 1941: On the same date, Tolkien penned his 42nd letter to his son Michael from the hospital in Worcester, reminiscing about lighter moments with the Lewis brothers and friends:

  "I got to tell you about him one of these days, though his first name was actually Robert, not Humphrey. So I just... you guys are just crazy." — [05:09] Matt

• 1959: The birth of Simon Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien’s eldest son, who would later become a novelist and an influential figure in maintaining Middle-earth's legacy:

  "Simon's contributions have been invaluable, especially as a series consultant for Amazon's The Rings of Power." — [05:09] Matt

Tribute to Christopher Tolkien

A heartfelt moment unfolds as the hosts mourn the passing of Christopher Tolkien on January 16, 2020. They reflect on his monumental efforts in bringing unpublished works to light, including The Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales. Alan quotes the New York Times obituary by Tom Shippey:

"Without Christopher, we would have very little knowledge of how Tolkien created his mythology and his own legendarium." — [13:50] Alan

Matt adds a personal touch by sharing his experience of starting his channel shortly before Christopher's death, emphasizing the profound impact Christopher had on the Tolkien community.

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Main Discussion: Fight Fire With Northmen

Reading from Unfinished Tales

The core of the episode features a detailed reading from Unfinished Tales titled "Fight Fire With Northmen," which chronicles the formation and struggles of the Eotheod, descendants of the Northmen who allied with Gondor.

Summary of the Reading

The narrative begins with the Eotheod, a small remnant of the once-powerful Northmen, living in the vales of Anduin. These horsemen, renowned for their breeding and riding skills, face devastation from the Great Plague of 1635, which decimates over half their population and horses much like the historical Black Death.

King Kalimechtar of Gondor, determined to avenge his father's defeat at the Battle of the Plains, forms an alliance with Marhwini, son of Marhari. This partnership proves pivotal in breaking the Wainriders' strength, leading to significant battles and shaping future alliances that are crucial for the survival of Gondor.

Insights and Analysis

The hosts engage in a lively discussion, unpacking the historical parallels between Middle-earth's plagues and real-world events. Alan draws comparisons between the 1635 Great Plague and Europe's 14th-century Black Death, noting the similar mortality rates and societal impacts:

"It's really terrifying. Tens of millions of people... half the population is not a stretch." — [32:18] Matt

Matt and Alan also explore the significance of the Eotheod's alliance with Gondor, highlighting how this partnership not only provided immediate military support but also laid the groundwork for future heroic moments in Tolkien's lore, such as the Ride of Eorl and the defense of Minas Tirith.

Notable Quotes

• Alan at [05:57]: "Now, on this date again, still January 12th in 1959, Simon Tolkien was born... he spoke primarily about his then recently released novel, No Man's Land."

• Matt at [15:10]: "But for now, it is time for us to turn to the Aotheod. And I'm not even going to say the full title."

• Alan at [13:50]: "Without Christopher, we would have very little knowledge of how Tolkien created his mythology and his own legendarium."

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Listener Community and Adaptation Ideas

The episode concludes with an engaging segment where the hosts brainstorm potential adaptations of Tolkien's appendices, discussing which stories could translate well to film or other media. They express enthusiasm for stories like "The Adventures of Thorongil" and the origins of the Rohirrim, pondering casting choices and narrative possibilities.

Highlighted Discussion Points

• Potential Films: Alan and Matt debate the cinematic potential of various appendices, emphasizing the rich storytelling found in characters like Thorongil (Aragorn) and the Witch King.

• Fan Engagement: They encourage listeners to submit their ideas and participate in the podcast's vibrant community through social media platforms.

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Conclusion

The Prancing Pony Podcast wraps up Episode 354 with heartfelt acknowledgments to their dedicated patrons and team members. They invite listeners to support the show through Patreon and engage with their extensive online community for discussions and exclusive content.

Final Thoughts

The hosts leave listeners eagerly anticipating the next episode, promising continued exploration of Middle-earth's deep lore and the unfolding saga of Gondor's alliances and battles.

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Notable Mentions:

• Christopher Tolkien's Contributions: Emphasized as pivotal in preserving and expanding Tolkien's legacy.
• Eotheod and Gondor Alliance: Highlighted as a crucial turning point in Middle-earth's history.
• Listener Community: Active engagement encouraged through various social media channels.

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Quotes with Timestamps:

• "If you need three new reasons to..." — [00:02] Alan
• "I'm Matt, the Nerd of the Rings..." — [01:18] Matt
• "Without Christopher, we would have very little knowledge..." — [13:50] Alan
• "Let us both take heart of hope and faith..." — [14:29] Alan
• "Another incredibly heroic moments..." — [54:19] Alan

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For more detailed discussions and contributions from the Tolkien community, visit prancingponypodcast.com. Subscribe on your favorite podcast platform to never miss an episode!

Transcript

[Alan]

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[Matt]

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[Alan]

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[Matt]

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[Alan]

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[Matt]

From really, really afar off.

[Alan]

Only if you squint too.

[Matt]

Yes, folks, pull up a bench in the common room and join us. I'm Matt, the Nerd of the Rings, and I'm here with the man of the west who was slow to recover, but his weakness was not tested for a long time. Al insisted.

[Alan]

So I'd say you're testing something, Matt. Might just be my patience though. We'll find out. Folks. Join us for a look at the people who became the Rohirrim as we begin our six episode long digression through Koral and the friendship of Gondor and Rohan in Unfinished Tales. Or as we'll call it from here on out, just kir on an aoral.

[Matt]

That sounds good for the sake of breath, doesn't it?

[Alan]

Yeah, actually, no, I will call it that. I want you every time it comes. You want me to use the phone to say Kyrian and Orel and the friendship of Gondor and Rohan and Unfinished Tales? You got to do the whole thing.

[Matt]

Now, folks, no matter how you arrived, you're all welcome Here in the common room at the Prancing Pony Podcast. We're reading and talking our way through Middle Earth with plenty of speculation and bad jokes along the way.

[Alan]

Speak for yourself, Matt. Now, we do love our deep dives into the lore, discussing our favorite themes and a whole lot more, but we.

[Matt]

Try to keep it light and fun like a couple of friends chatting at the pub. And we're glad you've jo joined us.

[Alan]

And I'm sure you'll be glad you joined as well. I'm not sure about Matt, though, but before we get to tonight's chapter discussion, it's time to take a look into the events of Tolkien's life around this date in another this Week in Tolkien History.

[Matt]

Now, this episode is releasing on January 12, 2025. So as we typically do on this Week in Tolkien History, we'll look at a range of dates going back a couple days and forward to the end of the week. But we'll start with this date, January 12th in 1917.

[Alan]

Alan well, on this date in 1917, Tolkien's leave of absence from the army ended, but he continued to be unwell. Now, unwell with what, you might ask? That would be trench fever. And to give you a little bit of insight on this, I'm going to go to John Garth's Tolkien of the Great War. Though this means going back to late October, when he first became ill, Garth writes he had trench fever, a gift of the inescapable lice that had bred in the seams of his clothes and fed on him, passing a bacterium, Rickettsia quintana, into his bloodstream. End quote. And then we read that his battalion's chaplain, a guy by the name of Mervyn Evers, he describes a scene that Garth says may feature Tolkien, unnamed in the role of the signals officer. On one occasion, I spent the night with the Brigade Machine Gun Officer and the signals officer in one of the captured German dugouts. And of course, Tolkien was the signals officers. That's who he's talking about. There. We dossed down for the night in the hopes of getting some sleep, but it was not to be. We no sooner lay down than hordes of lice got up. So we went round to the medical officer, who was also in the dugout with his equipment, and he gave us some ointment which he assured us would keep the little brutes away. We anointed ourselves all over with the stuff and again lay down in great hopes. But it was not to be, because instead of discouraging them, it seemed to act like a kind of hors d'oeuvre, and the little beggars went at their feast with renewed vigor. How's that for a fun thought?

[Matt]

No, that sounds horrible. Now, in Carpenter's biography we read, his rescuer was pyrexia of unknown origin, as the medical officers called it. To the soldiers, it was simply trench fever, carried by lice. It caused a high temperature and other fever symptoms, and already thousands of men had reported sick with it. Tolkien was diagnosed on October 27, sent back to England by ship on November 8 and taken to hospital in Birmingham. But on this day in 1917, his leave of absence ended and he needed to be available for duty. He faced a medical board later in the month, January 23rd, and by then the fever had returned twice more.

[Alan]

So that's 1917 when his leave ended. On this day, we're going to fast forward to this same day, January 12th, but this time in 1941. Now, on this day, Tolkien wrote letter number 42 to his son Michael. Michael was at this point in hospital in Worcester after an injury during training. Tolkien wrote that recently it had been a rather dreary and busy time, with a foul east wind blowing steadily, the weather varying from bone piercing cold to gray damp chill. But one good thing happened. Tolkien writes about he and the Lewis brothers, that would be C.S. lewis and his brother Warny and their friend Dr. Havard, also known as the Red Admiral, useless quack and honest Humphrey. I got to tell you about him one of these days, though his first name was actually Robert, not Humphrey. So I just. You guys are just crazy. They all went to a pub and fun times ensued.

[Matt]

Now, on this date again, still January 12th in 1959, Simon Tolkien was born. Now, Simon is Christopher Tolkien's eldest son and is a novelist himself with five novels to his name. And he's currently a series consultant for the Lord of the Rings, the Rings of Power on Amazon.

[Alan]

That's right. Now, he was also a guest here on the Prancing Pony podcast back in 2017, all the way back on episode 37, where he spoke primarily about his then recently released novel, no Man's Land. But let's go ahead and move away from this particular day in Tolkien history and look at some more things that happened this week in Tolkien history. January 11, 1969, Tolkien wrote a charming letter to a seven year old boy who had recently won a Sunday Times competition where children wrote in about their favorite book. A boy by the name of Philip Neill had of course written about the Hobbit. Tolkien thanked him for writing that letter about the Hobbit, which was printed in the Sunday Times. I liked it very much and was very pleased to know that you enjoyed reading the book and mean to keep it.

[Matt]

Tolkien also sent him a copy of Smith of Wootton Major, which was published two years prior in 1967. He tells Young Philip that it's not about the same time or country, but expresses his hope that he'll still like it. Sticking with the letters, but Moving to January 14, this time in 1956, Tolkien wrote a draft to an unidentified reader, a Mr. Thompson. He says a lot of quotable things in this letter, including this. It was just as the 1914 war burst on me that I made the discovery that legends depend on the language to which they belong. But a living language depends equally on the legends which it conveys by tradition. So though being a philologist by nature and trade, I began with language.

[Alan]

That's such a great letter. It's the same letter where he says that he has long ceased to invent, I wait till I seem to know what really happened. And it's also one of a handful of letters where he mentions his dream. He writes for when Faramir speaks of his private vision of the great wave, he speaks for me. That vision and dream has been ever with me and has been inherited, as I only discovered recently by one of my children.

[Matt]

Now, on January 17th, but going way back to 1937, he wrote letter 10 to Allen and Unwin. I'm not sure this letter would ordinarily make the cut, but we'll explain why. As a prelude to this letter, sometime in the preceding years, which Carpenter says is between 1932 and 37, but Hammond and Skull suggest between 29 and 31. Well, Christopher Tolkien says it's more likely the 30s than the 20s.

[Alan]

So based on his handwriting, by the way, is why he says that. Yeah.

[Matt]

Right. It's kind of wild, though, the way Christopher especially can decipher his father's writings.

[Alan]

Nobody else seems to be right.

[Matt]

Yeah, it can be rough. Yeah. Now, Tolkien had written and illustrated a short book for children called Mr. Bliss. It was shown to Alan and Unwin at the same time as the Hobbit. And while they wanted to accept it, the challenge was the number of colors in the drawings.

[Alan]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Tolkien wrote back saying that the book returned safely and with his usual self deprecation, said the pictures seem to be mostly only to prove that the author cannot draw. But if your firm really think that it is that he is worth publishing, I will try and make the illustrations more easy to reproduce.

[Alan]

Now, the reason we went ahead and included that letter and why that made the cut today is because on January 17th, 1983, so exactly 46 years to the day after that letter was written, Mr. Bliss was published. Okay. It was published in the US on that day. It had actually already come out in the uk September, the year before. That's not the point of this week in Tolkien history, is it?

[Matt]

No, that's not. No. We're working with what we've got here. And that was a fun connection, regardless. Now, on January 15, 1972, the Tolkien Society's constitution was ratified and and the international educational charity and fan club became official, though it had begun informally in November 1969. The Tolkien Society has done a lot for the worldwide fan community, but we thought we'd tell a little story involving Tolkien himself. In June of that year, just a few months after the formal ratification of their constitution, the founder of the Tolkien Society, Vera Chapman, met Tolkien at a party and asked if he would be willing to be the Society's honorary president. He said, certainly, if I can help your society in any way, I will.

[Alan]

I love that. Now, when Tolkien passed away just a little over a year later, the society offered the post of honorary president to Christopher Tolkien, but he turned it down, saying that he believed his father should remain in that role, even posthumously. And that, of course, brings us to the saddest part of this week in Tolkien, the passing of Christopher Tolkien on January 16, 2020, just four years ago yesterday. The debt that all of us as Tolkien fans owe to Christopher Tolkien is genuinely immeasurable. For more than 50 years, he labored to bring us more and more of his father's works and his world.

[Matt]

Indeed. And I, this is a really sad tidbit for me personally is that I started my channel just a couple days before Christopher Tolkien passed away. The first video on my channel is me talking about Christopher Tolkien passing away and how, you know, how much of a blow that is.

[Alan]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Now, if you've only recently become a Tolkien fan, maybe through the films or the recent Amazon show, you might not know about all the things that Christopher Tolkien has done. This is something that I am constantly telling people about.

[Alan]

Yeah, you don't know. You just don't know.

[Matt]

It's wild. It's like the picture of, you know, where you see the top of an iceberg under the water is like this huge, huge chunk of ice. Like the huge chunk of ice is all of the stuff Christopher did. So after Christopher's father died, he spent four years organizing the myths and legends of the First Age and published them as the Silmarillion in 1977. In 1981, he published Unfinished Tales, which is the book we turn to today for the beginnings of Rohan.

[Alan]

Right.

[Matt]

Then in 1983, he released the first volume of what would eventually become the 12 volume series, the History of Middle Earth. And for another 13 years, he compiled fragments, manuscripts to write that 13 years, you know, notes scribbled in the margins from over 70 boxes of unpublished writings.

[Alan]

Seventy boxes, yeah.

[Matt]

And he was pumping these out because, I mean, there's a stretch. Yeah, there's a stretch. I want to say it's like seven or eight straight year where there was one every year.

[Alan]

And really it's all 12 volumes over. Over a 14, 13 or 14 year period.

[Matt]

Almost not much of a gap between.

[Alan]

There really isn't. And then after that, as if that wasn't enough, he was responsible for the release of the other posthumous works of his father. That includes all three of the First Age tales, right? The, the Fall of Gondolin, Baron and Luthien, and the Children of Hurin, as well as other non legendarium works like the Fall of Arthur, Tolkien's translation of Beowulf, and so, so much more. In an obituary that was published in the New York Times, Tom Shippy, who we just both admire so much, such an incredible Tolkien scholar and great guy, he wrote. Without Christopher, we would have very little knowledge of how Tolkien created his mythology and his own legendarium. As usual, he's spot on. Christopher's work gave us all front row seats to the very process that Tolkien used to bring Middle Earth to life.

[Matt]

Now, in episode 151, published three days after his death, you, Allan and Sean closed with quotes from J.R.R. tolkien himself. The first is from letter 45, which he wrote to his older son Michael in June of 1941. Still, let us both take heart of hope and faith. The link between father and son is not only of the perishable flesh, it must have something of eternity about it. There is a place called heaven where the good here unfinished is completed and where the stories unwritten and the hopes unfulfilled are continued. We may laugh together yet.

[Alan]

I love that. And then we also read in that episode from letter 64, which he wrote to Christopher in April 1944, you were so special a gift to me in a time of sorrow and mental suffering, and your love opening at once almost as soon as you were born. Foretold to me, as it were in spoken words, that I am consoled ever by the certainty that there is no end to this probable under God, that we shall meet again in hail and in unity before very long, dearest and certain that we have some special bond to last beyond this life. And folks, that's what happened this week in Tolkien history, man.

[Matt]

A powerful week indeed in Tolkien history.

[Alan]

Yeah.

[Matt]

But for now, it is time for us to turn to the Aotheod. And I'm not even going to say the full title. I'm Going to. I'm going to keep with Kyrion and Aorl.

[Alan]

Oh, not Kyrion and Aoral and the Friendship of Condor and Rohan and Unfinished Tales. No, which, by the way, we're not even giving Unfinished Tales its full title. You know that.

[Matt]

That's the Unfinished Tales of Numenor. What is the full title?

[Alan]

I know. Unfinished Tales of Numenor and Middle Earth is all it is.

[Matt]

Oh, okay. Unfinished Tales of Numenor and Middle Earth. Yeah, There we go.

[Alan]

That's great stuff. Yeah.

[Matt]

All right, well, you want to start us off with the first reading?

[Alan]

I will. The Eotheod were first known by that name in the days of King Kalimechtar of Gondor, who died in the year 1936 of the 3rd Age, at which time they were a small people living in the vales of Anduin between the Carrack and the Gladden Fields, for the most part on the west side of the river. They were a remnant of the Northmen, who had formerly been a numerous and powerful confederation of peoples living in the wide plains between Mirkwood and the River Running, great breeders of horses and riders, renowned for their skill and endurance. Though their settled homes were in the eaves of the forest and especially in the East Bight, which had largely been made by their felling of trees, these Northmen were descendants of the same race of Men as those who, in the First Age, passed into the west of Middle Earth and became the allies of the Eldar in their wars with Morgoth. They were, therefore, from afar, off kinsmen of the Dunedain or Numenoreans, and there was great friendship between them and the people of Gondor. They were, in fact, a bulwark of Gondor, keeping its northern and eastern frontiers from invasion, though that was not fully realized by the kings until the bulwark was weakened and at last destroyed.

[Matt]

Now, we skipped the first paragraph, but that's where we get some of the frame narrative typical of these kinds of stories from Tolkien.

[Alan]

Yeah.

[Matt]

You know, we're told about a story called the Chronicle of Kyrion and Eorl, but notice that this section of the book is called Cirion and Eorl and the Friendship of Gondor and Rohan. So it's not the Chronicle.

[Alan]

Right. And Christopher Tolkien explains in a footnote that there isn't any existing writing of his father's with the title the Chronicle of Kirion and Aoral, before concluding that it's the narrative in Part three, which we'll start covering three weeks from now, that is referred to here. But of course, Tolkien being Tolkien, there were the official Chronicles and then there were Lays and Legends and that it's these additional stories that served as source material for later chronicles.

[Matt]

And one of those later accounts is mentioned in a footnote, the Book of the Kings. Apparently, Tolkien originally included a reference to it in the very first paragraph of Appendix A, but removed it in the revised edition.

[Alan]

That's right. Now, that source, the Book of the Kings, along with the Book of the Stewards and the Akalabeth, were some of the Gondorian history sources that Aragorn gave access to for Frodo and Pippin. According to that same footnote, Tolkien then.

[Matt]

Says, essentially, I'm taking all the histories from these various accounts and putting them together here in a single all inclusive chronicle. Now, picking up where Alan started reading for us, this is part one of the chronicle called the Northmen and the Wainwriters. So let's get into that story.

[Alan]

That's right. And we're told first about the Eotheod and when they were first called the Eotheod. But if we're gonna call them the Eotheod, we should know what Eotheod means. I'm just gonna keep saying that word.

[Matt]

Right, yeah.

[Alan]

Well, it is an Old English name. And the elements are Eo, meaning horse. We see that same element in names like Eomer or in the name of the formation, the Ered. And then the second element is theod, meaning people or land. And we see that element in Theoden as his name means leader of the people or king. So Eotheod is simply horse people.

[Matt]

And they came to be called this back in the time of king Kalimekhtar, the 30th king of Gondor, around 1900 of the third age.

[Alan]

Right.

[Matt]

So about 1100 years before the war of the ring and about 600 years before Kirion. And we'll get to Kalimekhtar soon enough. So we'll hold off on more explanation of that for now.

[Alan]

We'll also hold off on making Matt say Kalimektar a lot. Now, at the time that they are the Eotheod, they are not a particularly numerous folk. They're described as a small people, a remnant. And they're living in the middle section of the Valley of the Anduin. So take a look at the map. At this point in history, they are living between the Keroch to the north and the Gladden Fields to the south, sort of in the middle of the Anduin. And they're living Mostly on the west side of the river.

[Matt]

But now we're told more about their background as the Northmen, a large group of peoples who had been living on the opposite side of Mirkwood from the Anduin, between the forest and the Kelduin, which is a pretty big area when you look at the map.

[Alan]

It really is. And we also learned that even then, back then, as the Northmen, they were famed for their horses and riders. And interestingly, we see that there are people living in the wide plains, but then they have settled homes that are in the edges of the forest itself. Very interesting way of putting it and describing they're not exactly nomadic, they have settled homes, but they clearly are out on the plains for very, very long periods of time.

[Matt]

Yeah, and we're also given a very clear indication of who these Northmen are, specifically in relation to the Men of Gondor. They are in fact kinsmen of the Edain. And the footnote says that they appear to have been most nearly akin to the third and greatest of the peoples of the Elf Friends, ruled by the House of Hador. But that's not really enough of a deep dive, is it?

[Alan]

No, it's not, Matt. And so to go a little bit further, I want to revisit something that Don and I took a look at back in episode 304. 48. Forgive us a bit of redundancy. I mean, the truth is there is a lot of content in these next few episodes that crosses over with stuff from the three episodes on the Kings and stewards of Gondor. But the context here makes it really important to revisit this.

[Matt]

So, Matt, now we know that when the Edain went west, there were three houses. The House of Beor, the House of Hador, and the House of Haleth. In of Dwarves and Men, an essay found in the Peoples of Middle Earth. We learn that the Folk of Beor were the first Men to enter Beleriand, and that they were a small people.

[Alan]

Now, after that we read about three different hosts of the Folk of Hador, much more numerous people. Now that's the house made up mostly of tall, fair haired people. They were coming up from the south. And we also read that the dwarves worked closely with the people of the House of Hador. And that's where we get a clue. These men, it seems, had come westward until faced by the great Greenwood, and then had divided, some reaching the Anduin and passing thence northward up the vales, some passing between the north eaves of the wood and the Ered Mithran. Only a small part of this people, already very numerous and divided into many tribes, had then passed on into Eriador and so come at last to Beleriand. They were brave and loyal folk, true hearted haters of Morgoth and his servants.

[Matt]

Combined with what we read here, that the Northmen were descendants of the same race of men who became the allies of the Eldar in the wars with Morgoth, it would seem that these Northmen, although middlemen, having never come into Beleriand to fight against Morgoth and go to Numenor, are indeed kin and loyal folk haters of Morgoth.

[Alan]

That's right. And there was friendship between the Northmen and Gondor. And quite a bit of friendship, as you'll remember, from the time that Don and I spent discussing the kin strife and Valacar's marriage to Vidumavi, the daughter of Vidugavia, the king of Rhovanion. Now that kin strife began in third age 1447, so it's about 200 years before the next event on the timeline that we'll be reading about shortly.

[Matt]

Not only are they related to the men of Gondor, they're a huge help to Gondor as well. They are serving as a bulwark or buffer really against invasion from the north.

[Alan]

And east, though, as is often the case, you don't know what you got till it's gone. And yeah, the text makes it very clear. So yeah. All right, well folks, we will come right back after the break. It's the new year and it's time to start tackling those things you've been putting off for too long. You've been kicking around a business idea for a while now and you're wondering how you're going to make 20, 25 different. Look, it's time to do this and Shopify is how you're going to get it done. Shopify makes it easy to create your own brand, open up your business and get that all important first sale. You can get your store up without any coding skills. Man, I couldn't code my way out of a paper sack. You just drag and drop with thousands of customizable templates. Shopify handles all the details that would bog you down. Things like shipping, taxes, payments, all from one easy to use dashboard so that you can focus on the important stuff growing your business. Speaking of which, Shopify has really powerful social media tools to connect all of your channels and create posts so that you can sell where people scroll. Don't kick yourself when you hear this again in a year because you spent 2025 still thinking about it with Shopify. Your first sale is closer than you think. Established in 2025. Has a nice ring to it, doesn't it? Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com pony all lowercase go to shopify.com pony to start selling with Shopify today. Shopify.com pony it's the new year, so it's time to start turning your resolutions into reality. Now I know for me that means getting back to the gym after a rough year, fitness wise and well, without getting too blunt. That also means trying to smell better. And there's a resolution we could all use. I've been using Mando. It's a whole body deodorant. I've been using it for a few weeks now and I've really been happy with, well, with smelling better. Mando is a whole body deodorant, so you don't just use it on your armpits. Any place on your body that could use a bit of odor control. You can use Mando there. Yes, there too. It's proven to block and control odors all day, even in this tiny podcast booth. And it's available in solid stick spray or even cream. Personally, I like the pro sport scent, but Bourbon Leather is pretty nice too. Now, as a special offer for our listeners, new customers get $5 off a starter pack with our exclusive code that equates to over 40% off your starter pack. Use code [e-mail] S H O P M A N D O.com Please support our show and tell them we sent you smell fresher, stay drier and boost your confidence with Mando. Now. Soon we'll get well to the Great Plague, so I guess there's no rush. But before we do, we want to remind you that there is a lot more talk going on at the Prancing Pony Podcast than just us.

[Matt]

The PPP has an amazing listener community. They're always coming up with great questions and discussions all across our social media spaces. Check out our Common room on Facebook, our dedicated subreddit, Twitter and more.

[Alan]

Now on Facebook, just look for the Prancing Pony podcast. Follow the page to get the news and episode drops, but you're going to want to join the group to get in some great discussions.

[Matt]

Or if you prefer Reddit, find us there@r prancingponypod. On Twitter and Instagram, we're simply rancing Ponypod.

[Alan]

And if you want daily Tolkien content, please check out today's Tolkien times on YouTube and all your favorite podcast apps. It's my short format daily show with everything from Tolkien Tuesdays to Silmarillion Saturdays. Be sure to check it [e-mail] times and follow Tolkien Times on all your social media now. Matt, would you pick up where I left off with the beginning of the.

[Matt]

Aotheod the waning of the Northmen of Rhovanion began with the Great Plague, which appeared there in the winter of the year 1635 and soon spread to Gondor. In Gondor the mortality was great, especially among those who dwelt in cities. It was greater in Rhovanion, for though its people lived mostly in the open and had no great cities, the plague came with a cold winter, when horses and men were driven into shelter, and their low wooden houses and stables were thronged. Moreover, they were little skilled in the arts of healing and medicine, of which much was still known in Gondor, preserved from the wisdom of Numenor. When the plague passed, it is said that more than half of the folk of Rhovanion had perished, and of their horses also they were slow to recover, but their weakness was not tested for a long time. No doubt the peoples further east had been equally afflicted, so that the enemies of Gondor came chiefly from the south or oversea. But when the invasions of the Wainriders began and involved Gondor in wars that lasted for almost a hundred years, the Northmen bore the brunt of the first assaults. King Narmacil II took a great army north into the plains south of Mirkwood, and gathered all that he could of the scattered remnants of the Northmen, but he was defeated and himself fell in battle. The remnant of his army retreated over the Dagorlad into Ithilien, and Gondor abandoned all lands east of the Anduin save Ithilien. As for the Northmen, a few, it is said, fled over the Kelduin river running and were merged with the folk of Dale under Erebor, with whom they were akin. Some took refuge in Gondor, and others were gathered by Marquini, son of Marhari, who fell in the rearguard action after the battle of the plains, passing north between Mirkwood and Anduin. They settled in the vales of Anduin, where they were joined by many fugitives who came through the forest. This was the beginning of the Eotheod, though nothing was known of it in Gondor for many years. Most of the Northmen were reduced to servitude and all their former lands were occupied by the Wainriders.

[Alan]

Man, it's rough being a Northman in those days.

[Matt]

It is.

[Alan]

They were hit hard by the great plague in 1635. I mean, sure, the cities in Gonda were hit hard. Proximity increases the rate of spread. But the Northmen were actually hit even harder.

[Matt]

Yeah. Granted, they don't have big cities where the disease can spread quickly, but the winter was especially cold, so everyone was jammed indoors in tight places.

[Alan]

That's right. And more than that, and this was an interesting thing that maybe we want to linger on for a little bit. The Northmen didn't have healers the way Gondor did.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan]

You know, they were the remnants of Numenor. All of their healing skills were sort of descended from that knowledge and wisdom. You know, there's something to be said about that. These are a more primitive people, if you will, not only in terms of, like, scientific medicine and, like, let's say, understanding the use of athalos, but also they don't have the healing hands of a king. I mean, not that God does anymore, either. They're under stewards. But you get the idea that there is some tradition there of healing. It's just interesting.

[Matt]

Yeah. I mean, we know, obviously, that the Numenoreans learned a lot from the Elves. And directly, you know, we get hints that. That Numenor teaches the Haradrim about agriculture.

[Alan]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. They teach him how to. How to raise corn, I think is actually.

[Matt]

Yeah, I think it is. Yeah. But, yeah, we don't. We don't get a sense for healing being. Being something.

[Alan]

Yeah.

[Matt]

And they didn't. They didn't have Doctors Without Borders back then.

[Alan]

Yeah. I wonder, though, how much of it is stuff that could be taught. Well, actually, I guess a lot of it had to be taught because all the medicine from the time of the last king until Aragorn returns would have to have been taught skills rather than magical skills, I would think.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan]

Yeah, interesting. I mean, you know, the herb master in Gondor and, you know, good old Yorith, the talkative nurse. Yeah. Anyway, it's just interesting and really sad. I mean, to have half the people wiped out, right?

[Matt]

Yeah. And it's crazy that that's not just half the people, but half their horses.

[Alan]

Yeah.

[Matt]

So the plague's not limited to just people.

[Alan]

No. And there really are some similarities between this great plague of 1635 in Middle Earth and the Black Death in the primary world in the mid-1300s. My research into that, it does vary quite a bit. But historians estimate anywhere from 30 to 60% of every people group living in Europe were killed. So, I mean, again, half the population is not a stretch. It's really terrifying. Tens of millions of people. And while many animals also died during the Black Death, it was primarily smaller mammals. Cats, rabbits and dogs rather than, say, horses or cattle, though they were affected too, just not in the same numbers.

[Matt]

Yeah. Now, all this said, it's not surprising that we read the Northmen were slow to recover after this. Losing half your population. That'll do it.

[Alan]

Y that sure will. Now, the Wainriders are assumed to have been hit as well. That's what the text is implying here. Interestingly though, it didn't seem to impact the Horadrim as much since the enemies of Gondor still exist and they're just attacking from the south and from the sea rather than from the east.

[Matt]

Yeah. Eventually, though, the Wainriders apparently recovered enough to start their invasions. And the text doesn't say here, but the tale of years says that they began their attacks in 1851 of the third age. Putting that into perspective, it's more than 200 years after this plague.

[Alan]

That is a long time. But that also has parallels with the Black Death. Historians say that Europe did not reach its pre1348 population levels until 150 to 200 years later. That's a long time.

[Matt]

That is a long time.

[Alan]

Now, when those attacks began, geography gave these wonderful Northmen the gift of bearing the brunt of those first attacks.

[Matt]

Yes.

[Alan]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Now, eventually, Narma Kill II gets an army together. And together with whatever Northmen he can find, he tries to fight off the Wain riders.

[Alan]

That's right.

[Matt]

And the text doesn't say. But this is five years after the first assaults in 1856. And this is what is known in Gondor as the Battle of the Plains. That. And you and Don talked about this just a few episodes ago.

[Alan]

Yeah, just like five episodes back. Now, Narma Kill II was defeated and killed in battle. And Gondor's kingdom shrank pretty drastically as a result. We read about what was left of his defeated forces retreating over the Dagorlad to Ithilien. And there's a footnote there that is worth looking at.

[Matt]

Yeah. Remember earlier when we mentioned the friendship between the Northmen and Gondor and reminded you of the marriage between Valacar and Vidumavi and the subsequent kin strife that came after that? Well, here we are some 400 years after that, and one of the descendants of Vidugavia, the King of Rhovanion, plays a part. The escape of the army of Gondor from total destruction was in part due to the courage and loyalty of the horsemen of the Northmen under Marhari, a descendant of Vidugavia, King of Rhovanion, who acted as rear guard.

[Alan]

That's right. Now, Don and I talked about the importance of rearguard actions in Tolkien. There are actually a lot of them. But of course, the one that comes to my mind immediately, Hurin and Huor and the men of Dor, Lomin, forming a rearguard that enabled Turgon to escape to Gondolin after the Nirnaeth Arnoediad. Now, as we read in the very next paragraph, this action to rescue the Gondorian army's remaining forces ended up costing Marhari his life.

[Matt]

One other thing in that footnote that's worth mentioning here, even though Gondor lost, it was a brutal battle.

[Alan]

Yeah.

[Matt]

The Wainriders had suffered serious losses, enough that they had not strength enough to press their invasion until reinforced from the east and were content for the time to complete their conquest of Rhovanion.

[Alan]

That's not much comfort to Rhovanion, but I suppose it helps Gondor a little. Yeah.

[Matt]

Now, while the remaining Gondorians fled into Ithilien, the surviving Northmen split up into at least three different groups. Groups. One group goes north across the Kelduin and join the people of Dale. And we learned that they're kin to these people, suggesting that the Men of Dale are also descended from the house of Hador.

[Alan]

I love that. Now, another group went into Gondor and sought refuge there. And that's not a surprise. I mean, if you remember, there had been a lot of Northmen in Gondor previously, before the kin strife, so that makes sense. But the third group is the one that we want to pay attention to here. After the split, they come together under Marquini, the son of Marcari. But they head north from the battle up the vales of Anduin, and together with many fugitives who'd made it through the forest, ended up forming the Eotheod.

[Matt]

By the way, you and Don talked about these names, Marhari, Marhwini, Vidugavia, Vidumavi, and so on several episodes back.

[Alan]

That's right. Now, they are names in Gothic. Well, they're actually Latinized spellings of Gothic names. And Marhwini's name consists of the element Mar, meaning horse, and Winnie, meaning friend. So horse, friend. Now, Matt, I don't know if you listened to that episode. But, folks, if you listened to that episode, you'll remember us talking about the fact that Old English is a language descended from Gothic in the primary world. And so the Rohirrim use Old English and their ancestors use Gothic in Tolkien's.

[Matt]

Translations, which is really neat.

[Alan]

So cool. It is so, like, just meta in the way he organizes these languages. The Gothic elements become only slightly different in Old English. That mar element becomes mer, which we see in the plural meras, for instance. And weenie becomes weena. Right. Like Freyowina or Goldwina. So it, you know, Marhwini would be Eowina. Right. It'd be horse friend would be Eowina in Old English. So.

[Matt]

Which is very close to Eowyn.

[Alan]

It is, actually. Yeah, yeah.

[Matt]

Now, not surprisingly, word of this new people didn't reach Gondor for some time. The Eotheod were busy, you know, surviving.

[Alan]

Trying not to die out.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah. So they weren't really prioritizing establishing diplomatic relations.

[Alan]

Now, it wouldn't be that long before the two were actually in contact. We'll see in our very next reading in just a few seconds here that about 40 years later, the same Marquini who established the Eotheod sent messages to the King of Gondor about the movements of the Wainriders. But we'll get to that soon.

[Matt]

Sadly, the Northmen that remained in their old lands were enslaved by the Wainriders and their lands occupied. Now, with that, let's get back to the text and find out what happens next.

[Alan]

Sure. But at length, King Calimechtar, son of Narmacil ii, being free from other dangers, determined to avenge the defeat of the Battle of the the Plains, messengers came to him from Marhwini, warning him that the Wainriders were plotting to raid Calenardhon over the Undeeps. But they said also that a revolt of the Northmen who had been enslaved was being prepared and would burst into flame if the Wainriders became involved in war. Callimechtar, therefore, as soon as he could, led an army out of Ithilien, taking care that its approach should be well known to the enemy. The Wainriders came down with all the strength that they could spare, and Kalimechtar gave way before them, drawing them away from their homes. At length, battle was joined upon the Dagorlad, and the result was long in doubt. But at its height, horsemen that Kadamechtar had sent over the Undeeps left unguarded by the enemy, joined with a great ered led by Marhwini, assailed the Wainriders in flank and rear. The victory of Gondor was overwhelming, though not in the event, decisive. When the enemy broke and were soon in disordered flight north towards their homes, Kalimechtar, wisely for his part, did not pursue them. They had left well nigh a third of their host dead to rot upon the Dagorlad among the bones of other and nobler battles of the past. But the horsemen of Marhwini harried the fugitives and inflicted great loss upon them in their long route over the plains until they were within far sight of Mirkwood.

[Matt]

Now, fast forward 40 years or so to 1899 of the third age, and the new king of Gondor, Kalimekhtar, is ready to avenge his father's death and the defeat of his army at the Battle of the Plains. Yeah, the text says that he can do that because he's now free from other dangers. That's because at the moment, Umbar isn't a threat.

[Alan]

That's right. I mean, remember, it was his grandfather. So that would be the father of Narmikil II, King Telumectar Umbardikel, that took Umbar in 1810 about 90 years earlier. And that according to the footnote here, the peoples of Harad were at this period engaged in wars and feuds of their own.

[Matt]

This is the time of that message we mentioned earlier. Forty years after he established the Eotheod in the vales of Anduin, Marhwini sends word to Kalimekhtar that the Wainriders are getting ready to attack again, this time over the undeeps of the Anduin into the region of Calenardhon.

[Alan]

Now, if you look at a map of Middle Earth, follow the Anduin south of Lorien, and you'll see two westward bends. The first is where the limb light joins the Anduin, and the second is a little bit further to the south. Those are the undeeps. Now, as the name suggests, the water here is a little more shallow. And in fact, we actually encounter this fact in chapter nine of book two, the Great River. When they reach this part of the Anduin first, we know we're nearing them when we read about the third day of their trip. As the third day of their voyage wore on, the lands changed slowly. The trees thinned and then failed altogether. On the eastern bank to their left, they saw long, formless slopes stretching up and away towards the sky, brown and withered. They looked as if fire had passed over them leaving no living blade of green an unfriendly waste without even a broken tree or a bold stone to relieve the emptiness. They had come to the brown lands that lay vast and desolate between southern Mirkwood and the hills of the Imin Muil. What pestilence or war or evil deed of the enemy had so blasted all that region even Aragorn could not tell.

[Matt]

Now that we have our bearings, let's read a bit later. In the next day or two, as they went on borne steadily southwards this feeling of insecurity grew on all the company. For a whole day. They took to their paddles and hastened forward. The bank slid by. Soon the river broadened and grew more shallow. Long stony beaches lay upon the east and there were gravel shoals in the water so that careful steering was needed. The Brownlands rose into bleak wolds over which flowed a chill air from the east. On the other side, the Meads had become rolling downs of withered grass amidst a land of fen and tussock.

[Alan]

And in the history of Galadriel and Celeborn we learn a bit more in later days. Gondor built a bridge over the upper Limblight and often occupied the narrow land between the Lower Limlight and Anduin as part of its eastern defenses. Since the great loops of the Anduin where it came down swiftly past Lorien and entered low, flat lands before its descent again into the chasm of the Emin Muil had many shallows and wide shoals over which a determined and well equipped enemy could force a crossing by rafts or pontoons especially in the two westward bends known as the north and South Undeeps.

[Matt]

And on any map you can see how crossing there would bring an invading force into the northeastern part of Rohan or what was then called Calenardhon. While Marquini's messengers brought Kalimekhtar the bad news about this coming invasion they also brought him some potentially good news. The enslaved Northmen still remaining in their lands were ready to revolt against the Wainriders. And if they went off to war, they'd do exactly that.

[Alan]

And with that intelligence in hand Kalamekhtar pulls together an army and heads north from Ithilien. Now, the objective here was specifically not to approach with any kind of stealth. Kalimektar wanted to draw out the Wain riders into combat. And sure enough, the Wain riders came down with all their available force. Kalimekhtar turns and runs. He's doing what he needs to do here he's pulling them farther away from their homes, that is to say, the Northmen's former homes, remember? Yeah, so. Yeah, exactly.

[Matt]

And eventually the two sides fought again on the Dagger Lad. And it was an evenly matched fight for a time.

[Alan]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Right up until the arrival of the cavalry.

[Alan]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Kali Makhtar had put his cavalry on the other side of the Undeeps, where they teamed up with an aorid of riders led by Marhwini himself.

[Alan]

Now, the term ered is used here, and that is actually a real old English word used by Anglo Saxons to indicate a division. We don't know how large an ered was. For the Eotheod, it might have just been any large cavalry force. But we do know that by the days of King Folquena, about a thousand years from this moment, a full Ered is 120 men, including the captain. But this is described as a great ered, so who knows how many cavalry arrived?

[Matt]

That's a good point. What we do know is that it was enough. And when they attacked, when they attacked the side and the rear of the Wain riders, it broke them and they fled north in retreat, leaving a third of their forces dead on the Dagger Lad.

[Alan]

That is significant. I mean, wiping out a third of their force. No, man. No wonder they ran. Now, Kanamekhtar did not chase after them them, but Marhwini did, along with his ered. They routed them all the way back to Mirkwood. And that's where you're going to pick up Matt.

[Matt]

But most of them had perished in the attempt, for they were ill armed and the enemy had not left their homes undefended. Their youths and old men were aided by the younger women, who in that people were also trained in arms and fought fiercely in defense of their homes and their children. Thus, in the end, Marhwini was obliged to retire again to his land beside the Anduin, and the northmen of his race never again returned to their former homes. Kalimechtar withdrew to Gondor, which enjoyed for a time from 1899 to 1944, a respite from war before the great assault in which the line of its kings came near to its end. Nonetheless, the alliance of Kalimechtar and Marhwini had not been in vain. If the strength of the Wainriders of Rhovanion had not been broken, that assault would have come sooner and in greater force, and the realm of Gondor might have been destroyed. But the greatest effect of the alliance lay far in the future. Which none could then foresee. The two great rides of the Rohirrim to the salvation of Gondor, the coming of Eorl to the field of Celebrant and the horns of King Theoden upon the Pelennor but for which the return of the king would have been in vain.

[Alan]

Man, I love that. That last paragraph, man. So phenomenal stuff. Now, we did skip the part about the doomed slave revolt in our reading, but I want to take a look at it here in our discussion. Marhwini and the chasing Eotheod left the routed Wain riders near Mirkwood and taunted them, telling them to run to the east, not to the north and pointing out that their stolen homes were burning.

[Matt]

And indeed they were. The slave revolt that Marhwini had told Kalimekhtar would happen did in fact happen. We read that desperate outlaws came out of Mirkwood and roused the slaves. Now, were these in fact, people of the Eotheod cutting through Mirkwood to accomplish this?

[Alan]

That's the thing. I'm trying to figure out who these desperate outlaws are. But I like the idea of some of the Eotheod sort of going over there and acting as, you know, stirring up this slave revolt. I mean, whoever they were, these desperate outlaws, they joined with the slaves. They were successful in burning a lot of the homes of the Wainwriters along with their storehouses and their camps. It's. It was pretty successful, but not entirely, was it?

[Matt]

Yeah. Picking up where we did read, starting with the aftermath of the revolt, it turns out to have come at a tremendous cost. Most of the slaves died. And there were two reasons for this. One, not surprisingly, the slaves weren't exactly well armed.

[Alan]

It's kind of how it goes when you're a slave.

[Matt]

Yeah, that's typically how it goes. But the other reason was that the people the Wainwriters left behind fought fiercely. Kids, older men and younger women.

[Alan]

That's right. Now, interesting. I like that, because just as we know that the Northmen, that is to say the Eotheod and the Rohirrim, all of those are sort of a chain. Those peoples, their women also fought well. So did the Wainwriter women.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan]

And I thought that was really interesting to see. With this revolt put down, Marhwini goes back to the Vales of Anduin instead of to their ancestral home. And we learned that they never went back to those ancestral homes. Really sad.

[Matt]

And in the meantime, Kali Mekhtar returns to Gondor victorious and enjoyed a Relatively brief time of peace, about 45 years. So relative, you know, in the grand scheme, relatively brief, but, yeah, before this is before the longer than you've been. Yes, it is. Yeah, that's right.

[Alan]

Like your entire lifetime of peace.

[Matt]

Yeah, that's right. Yeah. And like, three times as old as Don. So now, before the end of the. This was before the end of the line of the kings, and you and Don covered that back a couple months ago in episode 349.

[Alan]

That's right.

[Matt]

No, that's right. In fact, the very next year, 1900 of the third Age, Kali Mekhtar built the White Tower in Minas Anor.

[Alan]

Now it would be rebuilt 800 years later in 2698, by the steward ecthelion I. And we read about that rebuilt version of the tower in book Five, chapter One, Minas Tirith. Even as Pippin gazed in wonder, the walls passed from looming gray to white, blushing faintly in the dawn. And suddenly the sun climbed over the eastern shadow and sent forth a shaft that smote the face of the city. Then Pippin cried aloud. For the Tower of Ecthelion, standing high within the topmost wall, shone out against the sky, glimmering like a spike of pearl and silver, tall and fair in shapely, and its pinnacle glittered as if it were wrought of crystals. And white banners broke and fluttered from the battlements in the morning breeze. And high and far he heard a clear ringing as of silver trumpets.

[Matt]

So what do you think was the problem with the first version of the tower? I mean, it's a. It's a glorious sounding tower. Like, this tower sounds glorious.

[Alan]

Glimmering like a spike of pearl and silver. It sounds amazing, but, yeah. Did they have to take it all the way down to the studs when they rebuilt it? I mean, yeah.

[Matt]

Like, was this the first one? Just. Were they just like, you know, this is this.

[Alan]

It's too tiny. We need to build a bigger one.

[Matt]

Is it like the shag carpet of towers or something?

[Alan]

Was it a midlife crisis and he just needed to get a bigger tower?

[Matt]

Maybe they made an HG episode out of it, though. Fixer Upper style.

[Alan]

Fixer Upper. Do we fix this one or do we get a new one? Right. Do we?

[Matt]

Oh, that's right.

[Alan]

Yeah.

[Matt]

That's a whole other show.

[Alan]

Yeah, that's right.

[Matt]

Yeah. Now, back in episode 350, you and Don were talking about that moment when the Standard of Elendil is said to have flown once more from the Tower of Ecthelion. And you pointed out that the Standard of Elendil never flew from the Tower of Ecthelion because Ecthelion was a steward, and therefore the king standard never flew on his tower.

[Alan]

Ding, ding, ding.

[Matt]

Any thoughts on that?

[Alan]

Well, yeah, it was a bit pedantic of me at the time. I mean, of course it is a rebuilt tower, and presumably not an entirely new one. I mean, I. I sort of doubt he demolished the old one first, so I guess it kind of did fly from there. But when Elendil's standard actually flew from that tower, it would have just been called the White Tower, not the Tower of Ecthelion. And it was built here by Kalamekhtar in Third Age 1900, when the city was still called Minas Anor.

[Matt]

Yeah, so anyway, sidebar over we return to the text and see that this alliance between Gondor and The Aotheod in 1899 has some huge impact later down the historical road. A moment ago, the text mentioned the great assault in which the line of Gondor's kings came near to its end. That assault comes in 1944 of the third age, just 45 years later.

[Alan]

And if the Wainriders had not been defeated so badly in third age 1899, they would have been able to attack earlier and in bigger numbers, ensuring a crushing defeat of Gondor. Now, instead, while the line of kings nears its end, the kingdom itself survives that onslaught. Spoilers, I guess, thanks to this alliance of Kalimekhtar and Marhwini.

[Matt]

But way further down the road, it leads to two other incredibly heroic moments 600 years later, in 2510, the ride of Eorl the Young, which we'll get to in two weeks time on the show. And 500 years after that, or more than 1100 years after Marquini helped out Kalimekhtar, the arrival of Theoden and the Rohirrim at the Pelenor, ensuring that Aragorn's return actually means there's a kingdom still standing.

[Alan]

Now, this whole segment that we've just read is obviously a lot longer than what Don and I read about a few episodes ago from Appendix A. In Appendix A, all we get is this summary. Kanamekhtar, son of Narma Kill ii, helped by a revolt in Rhovanion, avenged his father with a great victory over the Easterlings upon Dagorlad in 1899. And for a while the peril was averted. That's it. That's all we get. So, thankfully Christopher found an extra box and we got this fantastic stuff and there will be more of it right after we come back folks, if you're enjoying the ppp, please consider supporting the show by joining the Fellowship of the Podcast. It's what gives me the time and resources to work on making this show better. Every season when you join, you get the best Discord community around, and that includes live episode recordings and hangouts. Every month, in fact, we're recording this episode in front of a live studio audience. You also get episode post scripts, ad free episodes, free merch and more.

[Matt]

You can also become part of our Questions After Nightfall episodes or even join us as a guest in the North Wing. So Please go to patreon.com prancingponypod to show your support and join the Fellowship of the Podcast.

[Alan]

Now. You can always help us out by giving us a rating and review on Apple Podcast and a rating on Spotify. And please recommend us to your friends.

[Matt]

And speaking of friends, let's talk more about Rohan and Gondor here. Alan, take it away.

[Alan]

All right. In the meanwhile, the Wain riders licked their wounds and plotted their revenge beyond the reach of the arms of Gondor, in lands east of the Sea of Rhun, from which no tidings came to its kings. Their kinsfolk spread and multiplied, and they were eager for conquests and booty, and filled with hatred of Gondor which stood in their way. It was long, however, before they moved. On the one hand, they feared the might of Gondor, and knowing nothing of what passed west of Anduin, they believed that its realm was larger and more populous than it was in truth at that time. On the other hand, the eastern Wainriders had been spreading southward beyond Mordor, and were in conflict with the peoples of Khand and their neighbors further south. Eventually a peace and alliance was agreed between these enemies of Gondor, and an attack was prepared that should be made at the same time from north and south. Little or nothing, of course, was known of these designs and movements in Gondor. What is here said was deduced from the events long afterwards by historians, to whom it was also clear that the hatred of Gondor and the alliance of its enemies in concerted action, for which they themselves had neither the will nor the wisdom, was due to the machinations of Sauron. Forthwini, son of Marhwini, indeed warned King Ondaher, who succeeded his father Catamactar in the year 1936, that the Wainriders of Rhovanion were recovering from their weakness and fear, and that he suspected that they were receiving new strength from the East. For he was much troubled by raids into the south of his land that came both up the river and through the narrows of the forest. But Gondor could do no more at that time than gather and train as great an army as it could find or afford. Thus, when the assault came at last it did not find Gondor unprepared. Though its strength was less than it needed. Ondaher was aware that his southern enemies were preparing for war and he had the wisdom to divide his forces into a northern army and a southern. The latter was the smaller, for the danger from that quarter was held to be less. It was under the command of Earnil a member of the royal house being a descendant of King Telumectar, father of Narmacil ii. His base was at Pelargir. The northern army was commanded by King Ondoher himself. This had always been the custom of Gondor that the king, if he willed should command his army in a major battle provided that an heir with undisputed claim to the throne was left behind. Ondoher came of a warlike line and was loved and esteemed by his army. And he had two sons, both of age to bear arms Artemir the elder and Faramir, some three years younger.

[Matt]

Yeah, and we'll see later whether that son, who's supposed to be the heir stays put. Spoiler alert. He does not.

[Alan]

Yeah, yeah, we'll find out about that next week.

[Matt]

Yeah, let's. Let's stick with the reading that we have here. The Wainriders, it seems, don't take this loss lightly. You know, of course, they go home to lick their wounds but instead of thinking, hey, maybe we should, like, leave Gondor alone for a while they spend their time plotting their revenge.

[Alan]

Exactly. You almost, like, catch the monologuing, practically. I mean, they're really, definitely wearing the villain hat here. If you're gonna get revenge, well, you need to get stronger. And that is precisely what they do as they grow, both in numbers and in area. They are an aggressive people, right? They're eager for conquests and booty.

[Matt]

But they're also angry, filled with hatred of Gondor because they were in the way.

[Alan]

That said, they're not entirely stupid. They wait for two reasons. First, because they don't have intel on Gondor's strength and they assume that it's actually bigger and stronger than it really was. The second reason is interesting, though, and it's because the Wainriders, further to the east had been expanding south beyond Mordor and They were having fights with their neighbors in that direction, including Khand, which we know very little about. Actually, we know nothing. We know the people there called the Var and that's all we know. Thank you very much.

[Matt]

Yep, yep, There. We covered it. We covered.

[Alan]

Yeah, there's our digression on an entire episode. We're going to do an episode on cond.

[Matt]

That's our P5.

[Alan]

Thanks for joining us. Goodbye.

[Matt]

Now, of course, these people all hate Gondor more than they hate each other. So naturally, they create an alliance and decide on a two pronged attack.

[Alan]

That's right. Now, coming back to Gondor, the kings Kanamechtar for another 37 years, until third age 1936, and then his son Ondaher. They had no clue about all of this. And what we're reading about here comes from historians after the fact. They're the ones who were able to figure out that it was actually Sauron who was behind all of it.

[Matt]

And what a burn. They themselves had neither the will nor the wisdom.

[Alan]

Wow.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan]

The Wainwriters would like to have a word with you, Mr. Historian.

[Matt]

Yeah, right. And I know you and Don talked about that back in Appendix A, but still, ouch.

[Alan]

Yeah, he's right. But, you know, that's, that's the way it works just a little elsewhere in Middle Earth for you, by the way, to kind of get this timeline and help you understand what else is happening in 1940. So this is four years after on Deher ascended to the throne, but four years before the attack coming up. So that kind of places it in line. Ontoher took counsel with Arafat, King of Arthedain, the last of the remaining kingdoms of the North. In fact, that was the year when Ondaher's daughter Firiel married Ariphant's son Arvedui, the ominously named last king of Arthedain.

[Matt]

And we have a bit of a repeat here. Just as Marhwini warned Kalimektar 4th Weenie, Marhwini's son warns Ondoher, Kalimektar's son, that the Wainriders were moving again.

[Alan]

Exactly. Familiar message. Yeah.

[Matt]

Yes, and he was able to provide a bit more intelligence about the possible strength coming in from their new allies.

[Alan]

Now, the evidence for this, at least from, from Forthwiny's perspective, is the increased number of raids in the south of their new lands in the Vales of Anduin. So that means they're getting attacks coming up from the south, up the river, but they're also getting attacked from the east, like through Mirkwood itself. Now, unlike his father, Ondohere isn't able to do much about this. We read that they could do some basic preparations, gather and train as great an army as it could find or afford. But it's simply not enough.

[Matt]

Ondohere has gathered enough intel to know that the enemies to the south are getting ready to attack. Remember that the Wainriders have expanded all the way to the south of Mordor. Knowing that this attack will come from the south and the north, he splits his army into two forces, with Earnil leading the smaller southern force.

[Alan]

And we do learn a little bit more about Earnil here. He is descended from Telumectar. Now, Telumectar is Ondoher's great grandfather, so Earnil would be Ondoher's second cousin once removed. Also, we learned that he was based at Pelargir, so it definitely makes sense geographically speaking. Give him command of that southern force.

[Matt]

Yeah, and the northern force is being led by the king himself. And that is actually the standard custom of Gondor. If the king wants to command the army, he can do so, but only if he leaves behind an heir with an undisputed claim.

[Alan]

Now, surely this isn't a problem for Ander. He's a warrior king anyway. His army loves and admires him. And he has two sons who are eligible to be heirs, Artamer and Faramir. Here, we don't know precisely when they were born, but we are told when their younger sister Firiel, the one who married Arvedi, was born.

[Matt]

Yeah, in the Heirs of Elendil, found in the People's Middle Earth, we read in the entry for Ando here war continued with the wayne writers. In 1940, Ondoir gave the hand of his daughter Firiel, born 1896, his third child, to Arvedui, heir of Arifant, King of the North Kingdom. But he was unable to send any help to the north against the evil realm of Angmar because of his own peril.

[Alan]

That's right. Now, if we assume even just a one year gap between Faramir and Firiel, since ferial is the third child, the younger son is 49 years old in third age, 1944. And since Artemir is some three years older, he'd be about five. So again, those are the youngest that they could be, based on Federel's date of birth. And we will get to those sons and what happens to them next week. In the meantime, we learned that Barlaman came of a fat innkeeper line and was loved and esteemed by his patrons. And he had two helpers, both of age to carry beer, Bob the Elder and Nob some three years younger. Matt, I'm gonna burn out on these segues one of these days. What does Bartlemon have in store for us tonight?

[Matt]

Oh, he's got a message from Jordan from Chicago.

[Alan]

Chicago, Chicago. How about them Cubs, Matt?

[Matt]

Yeah, next year, baby.

[Alan]

Yeah, it's good to be a Dodgers fan. I'll just say that right now.

[Matt]

Yeah, nobody cares about.

[Alan]

Besides, now all the Yankee fans and Met fans and Padres fans have been like, I'm out.

[Matt]

Yeah. Well, anyway, to get to Jordan's question here. With the War of the Rohirrim coming out soon, which it's already come out by the time this airs.

[Alan]

Yes, we will already have done our review and it would have been the intro in the last episode. Yeah.

[Matt]

Yes. But as Jordan saying that War of the Rohirrim is coming out soon as we're recording this and hunt for Gollums coming up next, it seems like the appendices are definitely a source filmmakers are looking to for Middle Earth films.

[Alan]

Sure.

[Matt]

What other appendices stories do you see as rich. Rich in cinematic potential?

[Alan]

Oh, well, I mean, the one we're in comes to mind at first, but then I have to remember that we're reading this from Unfinished Tales. So how much is in on is in the appendices? And the answer is not much. So I don't know.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan]

That you could really do much with it for me. Did we talk about this recently? I feel like it came up that we were talking. It might have just been one of our chats. It might not have been on air. I would love to see the adventures of Thorongil.

[Matt]

Yeah. Yeah, I feel like we did talk about that.

[Alan]

I think we did not the young Aragorn, like the child in Rivendell growing up, you know, all of that. Yeah, sure, whatever. I want to see him as Thorongil, helping Thengel and then helping Ecthelion in Gondor and doing that deal where he goes down to Umbar and attacks and wipes out all the ships and takes out the guy. I mean, just. Oh, yeah, fantastic.

[Matt]

I also like, you know, if that would allow you to have a young Denethor as a foil.

[Alan]

Ooh, would that be great?

[Matt]

Wouldn't that give some excellent context to. Oh, it sure would like, like to. You know, I'm thinking from. Because this is presumably a film like how this would relate to the existing films and like. Yeah, that could give Some really good. Tell us that story that could give some really good insight into why Denethor is so ticked off about the idea of Aragorn.

[Alan]

Not to mention, I mean. Yeah, because of course, you think about this. Not only is Thorongil esteemed by everyone, including Ecthelion, Denethor's father.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan]

If Denethor can figure out who Thorongil is, and the text says that there's speculation that he did figure out indeed who he was and that he figured that Gandalf was trying to supplant him. Yeah. We're going to get that, that strong vibe. Not only the my father likes you more than he likes me, which then also explains some of the Faramir stuff.

[Matt]

Right? Yeah.

[Alan]

But it gives us a chance to look at what Tolkien's talked about regarding the Stewards and how they hardened their hearts against the arrival of a king. They basically made sure that they were never going to allow a descendant of Isildur to take the throne.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan]

Which comes back to Denethor's line that he says in the films and in the books about, you know, from a line bereft of lordship. It's great.

[Matt]

Such a great line too.

[Alan]

It is a great line. But I just, I feel like that would be a wonderful story to tell and. Yeah. Now I'm trying to figure out who would we cast as a youngish Aragorn. Right. You know, as a.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan]

He's not young, but he's not old.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan]

And then.

[Matt]

Or a young Denethor. Yeah, yeah.

[Alan]

Oh, you'd also have to have a little cameo of like 10 year old Boromir. 10 year old Boromir, right.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan]

Kids, I would love to be.

[Matt]

Great.

[Alan]

Oh, that'd be such a, such a nod to the fans.

[Matt]

Oh, yeah.

[Alan]

Who would we cast?

[Matt]

I don't know about. See, I don't, I don't even think about casting stuff. I'm like, I know.

[Alan]

I don't either. I'm not good at that.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan]

I just, I don't watch enough TV or movies to do like, a lot.

[Matt]

Of times people throw out like some of the biggest star and it's like. Yeah, like you put that person in and then all of a sudden it's a.

[Alan]

It's that person as.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. It's not, it's not a Tom Cruise.

[Alan]

As the wrong girl. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. He's too short.

[Matt]

Anyway, I do like the idea of like Denethor discovering and keeping it to himself. Yes.

[Alan]

Somehow finding out. Yeah.

[Matt]

Like, I mean, so perhaps he sees the. The broken sword, you know, maybe. Perhaps he sees Narsil. I mean, we know that. That Denethor does study in the. The records, you know. He studies.

[Alan]

Yeah, the libraries.

[Matt]

Right, the libraries, yeah. And so, like, you know, he's learned that. He's very learned. He's a very learned guy. So, like, whether it's the Ring of Barahir, you know, or the Shards of Narset, like.

[Alan]

Yeah, one of those. Yeah, the Ring of Bara here alone would do it, wouldn't it? Yeah, yeah, that would be interesting.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan]

Oh. Oh, that would be good. One actor comes to mind, not for either Thorongil or young Denethor, but for Ecthelion, for the steward, who's really a good steward. Ben Daniels, who played Kirdan in Rings of Power, would be a really good Ecthelion. Good. But I don't want to. I don't want to cast too many people who've been in Middle Earth projects.

[Matt]

I was gonna say you can't. Yeah, you. Eventually, you confuse the heck out of the cast. Yeah.

[Alan]

You really do.

[Matt]

We can't. We can't freak out the normies, you know?

[Alan]

No, no, we can't. But who would we cast as a young Thorongil in a project like this?

[Matt]

Oh, my gosh.

[Alan]

I just don't know. I don't watch enough TV or movies to name anybody.

[Matt]

I. Yeah, I don't. I don't even try. Like, Sorry. Sorry, folks. Listening to this. Like, you guys can.

[Alan]

Yeah. Send in who you are, send in suggestions, but I think the story of Thorongo would be really. I think it would be a really good box office hit, too. I mean, I think people would be interested in it, all the adventure, all the politics. Because you'd have the politics of Gondor. You have, you know, the adventure that would include him sailing down to Umbar and taking the port and. And killing the captain of the ships down there and.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan]

And you'd have a. Quite an ending of him walking away into the sunset. You know, literally off to Mordor. Yeah.

[Matt]

Yeah. And I.

[Alan]

Something else, I think.

[Matt]

Like, it's so. It's. It's a pretty tired trope. And it was. It's been tried and failed in other things, like, remember X Men Origins? Wolverine was supposed to be, like, the start. They were going to do a Magneto one with Ian McKellen back in the day. And, like, so. So it can be seen and it would be. By. A lot of people would write it off as milking. But, yeah, the fact of the matter is, Tolkien gave us a pretty darn compelling story there for a young Aragorn tale. So I. I would have no problem with that. That's definitely toward the top of my list, too.

[Alan]

What would be another one for you? I mean.

[Matt]

Yeah, one. One that I've thought of recently because there's a lot of. A lot of ones that I think are. Are more obvious ones. Like, we could go on and on about an Angmar War.

[Alan]

I was gonna say the War in the north or.

[Matt]

Or trilogy of Angmar War, for crying out loud.

[Alan]

Oh, you're not kidding me.

[Matt]

Because it's hundreds of years.

[Alan]

You imagine the scene of Glorfindel and Arn.

[Matt]

I mean, just versus Witch King. I just like. I think the Witch King would be an amazing villain. Like, he's an amazing villain anyway, but it's like. It's like the rise of Angmar or something, you know, dude, like, you suggested.

[Alan]

A trilogy you could do. The first one could be the split of Arnor into Arthedain, Rudauer and Cardalan. And sort of the way the Witch King sees this as an opportunity. Right. And that's film one. And then film two is sort of the destruction of Rhudauer and Cardalan. Angmar holds on. And then the third one is the destruction of Arthedain.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan]

As you know. And it ends with Arvedwi on the ship in the Bay of Forachel, freezing to death. I mean, you can even see the last frame is like his frozen face.

[Matt]

Well, and I see. I start like. Because this is what I do, like, when I'm in the car or like, you know, when I'm driving in the car somewhere when I can't be. Have my mind on other things. This is the kind of stuff that goes through my mind is like, potential adaptations. And I think of Cardalyn, Rudauer and Arthodyne. If you've ever seen the old Akira Kurosawa film. Ron, about that. Yeah, I've not seen that.

[Alan]

It's on my list now, though, thanks to you.

[Matt]

Yeah, it's. It's. There's actually some imagery of it in it that Peter Jackson borrows from, which is really cool. Some of the cinematography influences his work, but, yeah, it. It involves an aging king who splits his kingdom between his three sons and.

[Alan]

Oh, wow. So it's very much an Arnor thing.

[Matt]

Yeah. But it. But it results in, like, breaks out into civil war. Yeah, yeah, it's. It's.

[Alan]

Well, which it did in. In Arnor. I mean, Arthedine has to fight off Rudauer and Cardinal especially.

[Matt]

But yeah, so. So one of the. The more deep cut ones that I could see them actually doing is involving the Aotheod and it's Scatha.

[Alan]

Scath of the worm. That's what I think. Yeah.

[Matt]

And I think it would be really.

[Alan]

Cool and sort of their animosity with the Dwarves. Yeah.

[Matt]

Like I. I could see them doing. I could actually see them doing that one in anime too. That was a follow up. As a follow up to War of the Rohir. If War of the Rohirrim does well and is. Is well received, they could do a backstory to that. Yeah, I could see them doing another one. It would be cool, I think, to differentiate a dragon story from Smau. Like make Scatha not. Not as formidable.

[Alan]

Make him the Scatha that Tolkien wrote him.

[Matt]

Oh yeah.

[Alan]

You know, Tolkien wrote a poem about Scatha and described. Described him.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan]

As we just talked about last episode, you know, is this cold? Just. I mean, totally creepy. Just crushing people with his body, you know, I mean, that's how he.

[Matt]

Oh, it'll be fun too, I think, because. And partially because I just listened to the audiobook diving into this, but I think to take some, some inspiration from like Beowulf's Face off with a Dragon.

[Alan]

Yes, yes. Maybe I would like that too.

[Matt]

I. As I was listening to the Beowulf thing, I was like, you know, like, this could work for Scatha and From, I think.

[Alan]

I mean, I don't know if you could do a whole movie with from and Scatha, but I think the Aotha. Yeah, the. The origin of the Aotheod, I think would be a good one, right?

[Matt]

Oh, that would be cool to talk about.

[Alan]

You know, maybe you start with the. The move from the Veils of Anduin. So a little ahead of where we are right now. Right. You move from the Veils of Anduin up to the north, you become the north or you become the Aotheod up there and it ends with the ride of Eorl the Young to. To save Kyrion. That would be.

[Matt]

Yeah, I think that that's probably a. More likely.

[Alan]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Prelude to. To war. The Rohir.

[Alan]

If War of the Rohirrim, you know, succeeds. Yeah, that. That would be more likely.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan]

Oh yeah. The origin of the Rohirrim. That would be a fun one. The thing is that so much that's got to pull from Unfinished Tales, like we said. That's the problem.

[Matt]

Yeah. That's the thing is like, you have.

[Alan]

To work strictly, you have to work with the estate. They'd have to give you extra approval.

[Matt]

Right. Well, yeah, that's what I'm saying is like the Chancellor. Pretty slim of that. Like you. You really. You know, unless. Unless some unforeseen, like, deal gets made.

[Alan]

Yeah.

[Matt]

For. For, you know, non Lord of the Rings or appendices material. You've. You've kind of looked. Got to look at stories that are purely in the appendices.

[Alan]

That's a tough one. Straight out of the appendices. Yeah. I mean, that's the thing.

[Matt]

That is where the Angmar stuff is, though.

[Alan]

Yes, it is.

[Matt]

The Angmar stuff is straight up.

[Alan]

It's all.

[Matt]

All of it. Yeah.

[Alan]

Yeah, that would be fantastic. I mean. Yeah, you're right. The Kyrian and a. Oral stuff, and therefore the origin of the Eotheod and the Rohirm is. Is not very fleshed out in the appendices. Okay, I know. I want an adaptation of all of appendix D, the shire calendar, for use in all years.

[Matt]

Yes.

[Alan]

That would be so exciting.

[Matt]

Oh, my gosh. Maybe we'll get there someday in like 2050, you know, I mean, if.

[Alan]

If I can do an episode of the PPP on the calendars, which, folks I will be thanks to James Talbo will be joining me on that to make it interesting then. Then certainly they could make. No, they can't make a film out of that. All right, that was fun. I would love to see some films coming out of the appendices. That would be really, really exciting, especially the story of Thorongil. But for now, folks, that wraps it up for another episode of the Prancing Pony podcast. Please be sure to come back next week when we join the Aotheod in fighting alongside King Ondaher as we continue the story of Cirion and eorl.

[Matt]

Neither of whom have actually bothered to show up yet in these episodes. But we're getting here.

[Alan]

They'll get here. They'll be here.

[Matt]

Alan and I want to thank the members of Team PPP editor Jordan Rannells Barlaman, Becca Davis, social media manager Casey Hilsey, event and Patreon community coordinator Katie McKenna, graphic artist Megan Collins, and website guru Phil Dean.

[Alan]

Now, please take a minute to check out the prancingponypodcast.com that's where you're gonna find show notes, outtakes, prancing pony ponderings, as well as our online storefront where you can get PPP merch, including all the great episode artwork that Megan's been doing for the show for the last two and a half seasons.

[Matt]

Now you'll also want to visit our library page. The Prancing Pony Podcast is, after all, a podcast about the books. So if you're interested in a book we've mentioned on the show, you'll find a link for it in our library. We do get a small amount of compensation when you make your purchase, and we thank you for that.

[Alan]

Now we also want to thank our patrons at the Kir Dan's contribution tier. I'll start with Demay in Alaska, Chad in Texas, Lance in New Jersey, Paul in Colorado, Joseph in Michigan, Kathy from North Carolina, Carlos in California, Brian in the uk, Jerry from Washington, Joe in Washington, Irwin from the Netherlands, Ben in Minnesota, Anthony in Texas, Karen in the uk, June in in Ireland, Zaksu in Illinois, Sarah in New Jersey, Joshua in Massachusetts, Lucy in Texas, and Keith in Alabama.

[Matt]

There's also Erica in Texas, Carson in Oklahoma, Vivian in California, James in Massachusetts, Ann in Kentucky, Shawn in New Jersey, Mason in California, Maureen from Massachusetts, Olivia in London, Robert in Arizona, Nick in Wisconsin, Lewis in South Carolina, Thomas in Germany, Craig in California, Bailey in Texas, Kevin in Massachusetts, Julie in Washington, Bruce in California, Joe in Maryland, and Nathan in Arizona. Thank you all so very much for.

[Alan]

Your support indeed, folks, thank you very, very much.

[Matt]

Make sure you don't miss any episodes of the Prancing Pony podcast. Subscribe now through Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or your favorite podcast app.

[Alan]

And one last thing. As always, don't forget to send your thoughts, comments, and most of all, your blueprints for a brand new tower of ecthelion to [e-mail] and if you want.

[Matt]

Your voice literally heard, well, just send us audio of your question, visit podinbox.com prancingponypod and record your question for us. Please be sure to still email the question to Barlaman, though.

[Alan]

Even though Barlman's been a lot more reliable lately, there's still a lot of mail to sort through. We'll try to get to you just as soon as we're able. As always, though, this has been far too short a time to spend among such excellent and admirable listeners.

[Matt]

But until next time, this is the end. We are going. We are leaving now. Goodbye SA.