Matt (3:50)

Very shortly. But it's not the next name on the list. That would be Ondohere's eldest son, the one who died by his side in the battle near Morannon, who was named Artemir. This is also a Quinyan name and consists, as usual, of two elements. The first is Arata, high, noble, exalted, lofty, like we see in Aratar, a name for the eight chiefs of the Valar, meaning high ones, or the exalted. Or in Artenis, which was Galadriel's father name and meant noble woman.

Alan Sisto (4:27)

Not a name you hear her called very often, by the way.

Matt (4:29)

That's true, yeah. Arata is cognate with Sindarin, Arad, which we see in Finrod, or in the name of the Horse of Rohan, given to Legolas, simply Arad.

Alan Sisto (4:42)

Yeah.

Matt (4:42)

The second element is something we see a lot. It's the mire element, meaning jewel, gem or precious thing. We see it in a lot of words. One of the fragrant trees of Numenor, Yavanamire, Miriel, jewel daughter, and the Elendilmir, the star of Elendil. It's cognate with Sindarin Mir, as in Gwaithi, Mirdain.

Alan Sisto (5:06)

Right. Now, it's interesting because. Well, you know, let me get to that in a minute. The name of his younger son, this is Ondoher, going back to the beginning. Undoher's youngest son, Faramir, is quite possibly a mixed name. Now, it's never glossed for us anywhere, which is interesting, given the importance of the Faramir in the Lord of the Rings. But there is a footnote in Appendix F, the Languages and Peoples of Middle Earth, in the section of Men that gives us a possible clue. Now, the footnote is explaining that the names Numenor, Elendil, Isildur and Anarion and all the royal names of Gondor, including Elessar, Elfstone, are Quenya, While most of the names of the other men and women of the Dunedain, such as Aragorn, Denethor, Gilrain, are of Sindarin form, being often the names of elves or men remembered in the songs and histories of the First Age as Beren, Hurin, end quote. That's all from the appendix, but it's the last line of the footnote that grabs my attention. Tolkien explains some. Few are of mixed forms as Boromir. Now, I can't say conclusively that the Fara element is Sindarin, like his brother's boron, which stands for steadfast, but his name ends with that same mira element. So it's very likely that Faramir is a mixed source name, part Quenya, part Sindarin. Now, this is where it does get a little interesting and a little pedantic. I know some folks are thrown off by how deep we're going, but this is a philology fair, so we sort of kind of have to. How do you know if it's Quenya mire and it's cognate with Sindarin Mir? How do we know that the names Boromir, Faramir, and even Artemir, how do we know they're using the Quenya version and not the Sindarin version? Well, that's because if the names were in Sindarin, the final mir element actually gets linited. It morphs, it changes to vir. So you'd end up with Faravir and Bor Vir, if those were using the Sindarin mir element as opposed to the Quenya mire element. And that's why I think we can say that Faramir is likely a mixed form. I just wish we knew what that first element meant. You know, like, what. What does the Fara mean? What does Fara or Far. What does that mean in Faramir's name? But we don't know. It's never glossed.

Matt (7:20)

I'm more intrigued by the name Borovir.

Alan Sisto (7:23)

I know. Isn't that cool?

Matt (7:25)

Yeah, I think that's. That's what we get the name Bovril from.

Alan Sisto (7:29)

No, we don't. No, we do not get Bovril from Borovir.

Matt (7:33)

Bovril. Yeah. Yeah, but I said Bovril.

Alan Sisto (7:35)

Bovril. You did say Bovril.

Matt (7:37)

Yeah, yeah, That's. They're probably related some form or fashion.

Alan Sisto (7:42)

Yeah, yeah. So it's purely Sindarin and not a mixed form with Quenya.

Matt (7:45)

Yeah. I don't know. I have no idea. Now, the next name up is the name of Ondoher's nephew, the captain of the right wing, Minokdar. The Oktar element is similar to what you've heard before. The Mekhtar element in Kalimektar, Bright warrior. Telumektar, warrior of the sky, the name given to the constellation Orion. Oktar is a later word meaning the same thing. Warrior.

Alan Sisto (8:14)

Right.

Matt (8:15)

The first element in Minoctar's name is Minya, and it means first imminent or prominent. We've seen it in the first king of Numenor, Elros Tar, Minyatur, first ruler, as well as an earlier king of Gondor, Minelkar, who is later called Romendacil ii. So Minoktar means first warrior, as we'll read later. That makes good sense.

Alan Sisto (8:41)

It does, yeah. Minoctar definitely knows what he's doing out here. Now, the next name to talk about, there's not much really to say, actually, about the name Adrahil. He's the captain of the left wing. And as we'll mention later, there's a little bit of confusion about his being from Dol Amroth. But in Appendix E writing and spelling, when we're reading about how to pronounce things, we read in a very small parenthetical aside that Imra Hill is a Numenorean name. Well, given that, it's quite likely that this name Adrahil, same heel element, is a name in the Adonaic language, something that appears often in the princes of Dol Amroth, beginning with Imrazor, the father of the first prince of Dol Amroth. So we don't know what it means. We just know that Adrahil is probably an Adonaic name. But now it's time to shift gears, stop talking about the people and talk about a few of the places we're going to come across today. The first is a place you've heard mentioned many, many, many, many, many times. Dagorlad. It is the same in Quenya and in Sindarin. And it simply means battle plane. It consists of the element dagor, means battle. Right. Like in the battles of the First Age. The Dagor Aglareb, the Dagor Bragalach, Dagor Nuin, Giliath. Right. Those are the glorious battle, the Battle of Sudden Flame or the battle under stars. The lad element simply means plain or valley. We don't see that a lot, but we do see it in Imlad, Morgul, the Morgul Vale.

Matt (9:58)

You'll also hear another familiar place, the Morannon. This is Sindarin. And you'll easily recognize the first part, Mor, which means black, dark, darkness. Like pretty much every bad thing in Lord of the Rings. Mordor, Morgoth, Morgul, as well as Moria, Black Pit and Morwen, Dark Maiden.

Alan Sisto (10:19)

Ah.

Matt (10:19)

The other element, anon, is a word for a great and strong entrance. It's often translated gate but can also refer to great doors like Enindurin, doors of Durin, where anon is in the plural form as enin.

Alan Sisto (10:36)

Sort of like how Amon, like an individual peak, becomes emin when it's arranged like Amon hen versus the Emen muil. So that's your singular versus plural. But, yeah, more anon. So black gate. Now, in fact, you actually hear that anon in one of the passwords that Gandalf tries because he forgot to sign up for one pass at the doors of Dora. And he says, anon thelen edrohi ammen, which translates as Elvish Gate open now for us. Which, of course, is very different from Elvis Gate open now for us. Which, as everybody knows, is the password for Graceland. Elvis Presley's mansion. Sorry. Not sorry. You should see the look on Matt's face, folks.

Matt (11:17)

Oh, my God.

Alan Sisto (11:18)

He's ashamed to be here with me. As you all should. We Helvis Gate open up now for us. Yeah. We also see Anon in the name of the stream that flows from the doors of Durin. The Sirannon. The Gate stream. So that's Morannon.

Matt (11:35)

Finally, there are the Towers of the Teeth, still under Gondor's control at this time. They're named Narghast and Karkast. They both have the ost element at the end which means fort, fortress, stronghold or city. Yeah, like in Belegost, fornost or Ost. In Edhil, Kark is fang, as in Carcharoth, red maw. But literally, great red Fang.

Alan Sisto (12:01)

Yeah.

Matt (12:02)

So Karkhost is fangfort. The first element in the other tower is narcissistic, which Tolkien says means bitter biting. And we'll have to take his word for it since we don't see it anywhere else.

Alan Sisto (12:16)

No, that's true. Some crazy words today. And of course, I gave Matt the most fun ones to pronounce. I mean, as always, Narcost, car you were. Menachtar, Teddah, Mekhtar. You know, have fun with that, Matt. Appreciate it. Yeah.

Matt (12:31)

Yeah. I will say it's kind of interesting that these. These towers have such ominous sounding names when they were under Gondorian control.

Alan Sisto (12:41)

I know.

Matt (12:42)

You think they would. They would name them, like, nicer things.

Alan Sisto (12:46)

You know, like Tower of the Sunrise, Tower of Butterflies.

Matt (12:50)

Like, even, you know, Tower of Guard is a nice name. Yeah, yeah.

Alan Sisto (12:55)

It's been used before, though.

Matt (12:56)

I know, but. But something in that vein where it's like, okay, it's. It's made for this purpose.

Alan Sisto (13:02)

Yeah. You could. You could call them like, vigilant watch and something like, you know, determined protection or something like that. I mean, I don't know what those words would be, but.

Matt (13:13)

I know, but it's like, yeah, we get all these, like.

Alan Sisto (13:18)

Yeah, Fang, Fort. Bitter fault.

Matt (13:19)

Ominous sounding. Yeah. It's like, well, I guess if they're.

Alan Sisto (13:23)

Supposed to watch over Mordor, we're just speaking their language, right? I guess we're telling the folks in Mordor better watch out this for its bitter biting. Yeah.

Matt (13:31)

Yeah, I guess so. Yeah. It's. It doesn't seem like you'd be particularly jazzed to get that assignment.

Alan Sisto (13:39)

No, I don't think this is probably. Yeah, I'm think if you're a Gondorian soldier, the last thing you want is to draw straws. Oh, man, I gotta go to Mordor and watch over the.

Matt (13:49)

Yeah. Yeah.

Alan Sisto (13:50)

It's not the glorious assignment. No.

Matt (13:53)

Yeah. Well, with that, Alan, I think it's about time we get to some reading for this week.

Alan Sisto (13:58)

All right, well, we'll pick up where we left off last week. News of the oncoming of the enemy reached pelargir on the 9th day of Kermi in the year 1944. Earnil had already made his dispositions. He had crossed the Anduin with half his force and leaving by design, the fords of the Poros undefended had encamped some 40 miles north in South Ithilien. King Ondoher had purposed to lead his host north through Ithilien and deploy it on the Dagorlad, a field of ill omen for the enemies of Gondor. At that time, the forts upon the line of the Anduin north of Sarngebir that had been built by Narmacil I were still in repair and manned by sufficient soldiers from Calenardhon to prevent any attempt of an enemy to cross the river at the Undeeps. But the news of the northern assault did not reach Ondohere until the morning of the 12th day of Kermiye, by which time the enemy was already drawing near, whereas the army of Gondor had been moving more slowly than it would if Ondohere had received earlier warning and its vanguard had not yet reached the gates of Mordor. The main force was leading with the king and his guards, followed by the soldiers of the right wing and the left wing which would take up their places when they passed out of Ithilien and approached the Dagorlad. There they expected the assault to come from the north or northeast as it had before in the Battle of the Plains and in the victory of Kalamechtar on the Dagorlad. But it was not so. Oh, that's ominous.

Matt (15:27)

Ominous indeed. We're full of ominicity.

Alan Sisto (15:30)

Ominicity? Yeah, ominousness.

Matt (15:32)

You like that? You like that word that I just came up with?

Alan Sisto (15:36)

I'm still deciding. Come back to me and ask me in another hour whether I like ominicity. Yeah.

Matt (15:40)

How's that for your philology? Yeah, all right. Well, as we enter this bit of the text, we begin by learning that recon of the enemy's approach got to polar gear. And remember, that's where Arnil and his forces are based. And we see on the ninth day of Kermier. But we might need to explain what that means for those who needs a little translation here. At this time, Gondor was using a calendar called the King's Reckoning, and It consisted of 12 months and three days outside of those months.

Alan Sisto (16:18)

That's right. The year, interestingly, was a mirror image of itself in that there was a single day outside the months that started the year, followed by five 30 day months, a 31 day month, a single mid year's day, unless it was a leap year and you had two followed by the exact same thing in reverse. So then you'd have a 31 day month, five 30 day months, and then a single day outside the months at the end of the year. Now, James and I are going to cover this at length. I know, we're just warning you now.

Matt (16:45)

Thank goodness it's James.

Alan Sisto (16:48)

Wow. I mean, you know, this is like a Map chapter. Right, the calendar chapter. The calendar episode is going to be.

Matt (16:56)

I would enjoy the map chapter. Much better than the calendar.

Alan Sisto (16:59)

I think this is going to be fun because there's going to be a lot of cool word nerdery on.

Matt (17:02)

Yeah, that's true.

Alan Sisto (17:03)

That's the names of the months. And also, of course, we'll get to talk about the king's reckoning versus the. There was another version. I think there was a steward's reckoning that slightly differed. And then we get to talk about the Shire calendar. And we get to also talk about how after Aragorn changes when the new year starts. Right. Because, you know, now the new year's totally like in March.

Matt (17:23)

Right?

Alan Sisto (17:23)

Yeah, it's really, you know, it's going to be an interesting little section.

Matt (17:26)

So James and I love how that's just a thing.

Alan Sisto (17:28)

It is.

Matt (17:29)

Change the calendar.

Alan Sisto (17:30)

I'm just changing the calendar. I mean, heck, that's what. In history. That's exactly what happened. Right. I mean, we had.

Matt (17:34)

Yeah, that's true.

Alan Sisto (17:35)

The Gregorian calendar and then the Julian calendar. I mean, all these things.

Matt (17:38)

So I will say I. I tease about the calendar a little bit here, but I do, I do find it interesting as well. I. I love getting comments on my videos when I say Something happened on February 30th and people lose their minds.

Alan Sisto (17:53)

Lose their minds. There's no 30 days in February. Yes, there is.

Matt (17:55)

They're like, what is wrong with you? Like, there's. There's only 28, except the liber is 29. I'm like, well, not in Middle Earth, actually.

Alan Sisto (18:04)

Let me stroke my neck beard and tell you that there actually is a 30th day. So, like I said, James and I are going to cover this more at length. We're going to include discussion about the names of the months in Quenya and Sindarin, their relationship to the Shire calendar. And we'll talk about all of that sometime in June, or as I might call it, in Quenya. Nadie.

Matt (18:22)

But this month in the story is Kermi. Yes, that's the seventh month in the year and most closely corresponds with the month of July in our calendars. And in fact, if I'm doing my counting correctly, this would be around July 2nd.

Alan Sisto (18:38)

That's right. The days don't quite match up and we'll get to that again in that later episode. Now, Earnil is the first to get this news, as he's based in Pillargir. And of course, he's already set up his forces.

Matt (18:50)

Yeah, we'll see how he's deployed his forces, or at least part of how he set them up. Half his army has gone with him to cross the Anduin. But they intentionally don't defend the crossings of the Poros.

Alan Sisto (19:02)

That's right. Now, if you remember from our discussion in the appendices, I think it was in the section on the Stewards. That's the river that begins in the Efelduath, the Mountains of Shadow. And it runs kind of west, southwest until it bends and reaches the Anduin just before the great river itself reaches the sea. It forms the border between South Gondor and Ithilien. So at this point in history, it's effectively the southern border of Gondor because South Gondor has been a debatable land all the way back to the Kinstra.

Matt (19:32)

Yeah, it's not a river that we encounter much but we actually just talked about it recently. It was here at the crossing of the Poros some 950 years from now where the steward, Turin II defeated the Haradrim with the help of the Rohirrim. Yeah, specifically King Folkwina's twin sons, Fastred and Folcred, who. Who died in the battle.

Alan Sisto (19:55)

That's right. But that's in the future, almost a millennium from now. For now, Earaneel leaves those crossings undefended. He camps his army about 40 miles to the north of this river in the southern portion of Ithilien. And we will come back to him and the southern army, but not until a lot later in today's episode.

Matt (20:12)

Instead, we shift to King Ondoher and his plans to lead the northern army up through Ithilien and then prepare for the battle on the Dagor. Lad.

Alan Sisto (20:19)

That's right. Now, the text here reminds us that the Dagorlad is a field of ill omen for Gondor's foes. I mean, let's be honest. Sauron's forces lost here in second age 3434. And more recently, Kalamechtar, that's Ondoher's father, defeated the easterlings here just 45 years before. So as far as home field advantage goes, it's not really a bad call.

Matt (20:40)

The bit in the parentheses about the forts on the Anduin are to let us know that he wasn't worried about being flanked. The force of Wainriders getting across the Anduin at the Undeeps. Then coming down into Gondor from the north would be a problem but there's enough manpower remaining at these forts to prevent this.

Alan Sisto (20:58)

The problem, though, is that the news that Got to earnil on the 9th day of Kermij. Didn't reach Ondoher until 3 days later. And that slow intelligence is a problem.

Matt (21:09)

Yeah. By this point, the Wainrider forces are closing in, and the Gondorian forces are in a bit of disarray with the lead units. The vanguard not yet having reached the Morannon, the gates of Mordor.

Alan Sisto (21:21)

Yeah.

Matt (21:22)

The army appears to be moving in column up the road from Ithilien, with the main part up front, with the king and the two wings each following in line.

Alan Sisto (21:31)

Now, as anybody who's ever played a battle tactics game can tell you, marching in a column is great for speed and control, but it sacrifices security, and it is only used when speed is critical and most notably, when enemy contact is unlikely. And we're going to run into a bit of a problem here with that. And that makes Ondaher's army here extremely vulnerable. They're still traveling to the battlefield. They are not ready for contact. And the lack of recon here is troubling. By not sending scouts ahead to A, determine how far away the Wain riders are, and B, really importantly, determine the direction from which they are attacking. Ondohere has put his army at a big disadvantage.

Matt (22:14)

We've just talked about the disadvantage due to the timing issue. The army still in columns when they need to be preparing for battle. But now we learn that Ondohere was expecting the attack to come from the north or perhaps the northeast, as The Wainriders did 45 years before to his father.

Alan Sisto (22:33)

Then we learn about this miscalculation in the most foreboding five words around these parts. But it was not so. Oh, man. No, I don't want to be onto here right now. No, no.

Matt (22:46)

Bad news.

Alan Sisto (22:47)

You know what he needs? He needs an ad break. We'll be right back. It's the new year, and it's time to start tackling those things you've been putting off for too long. You've been kicking around a business idea for a while now, and you're wondering how you're going to make 20, 25 different. Look, it's time to do this, and Shopify is how you're going to get it done. Shopify makes it easy to create your own brand, open up your business and get that all important first sale. You can get your store up without any coding skills. Man, I couldn't code my way out of a paper sack. You just drag and drop with thousands of customizable templates. Shopify handles all the details that would bog you down things like shipping, taxes, payments, all from one easy to use dashboard so that you can focus on the important stuff growing your business. Speaking of which, Shopify has really powerful social media tools to connect all of your channels and create posts so that you can sell where people scroll. Don't kick yourself when you hear this again in a year because you spent 2025 still thinking about it with Shopify, your first sale is closer than you think. Established in 2025. Has a nice ring to it, doesn't it? Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com pony all lowercase go to shopify.com pony to start selling with Shopify today. Shopify.com pony it's the new year, so it's time to start turning your resolutions into reality. Now I know for me that means getting back to the gym after a rough year, fitness wise and, well, without getting too blunt. That also means trying to smell better. And there's a resolution we could all use. I've been using Mando. It's a whole body deodorant. I've been using it for a few weeks now and I've really been happy with, well, with smelling better. Mando is a whole body deodorant. So you don't just use it on your armpits. Any place on your body that could use a bit of odor control, you can use Mando there. Yes, there too. It's proven to block and control odors all day, even in this tiny podcast booth. And it's available in solid stick spray or even cream. Personally, I like the pro sport scent, but bourbon leather is pretty nice too. Now, as a special offer for our listeners, new customers get $5 off a starter pack with our exclusive code that equates to over 40% off your starter pack use code pony@shop mando.com s h o p m a n d o.com Please support our show and tell them we sent you smell fresher, stay drier and boost your confidence with Mando. Now. Soon we'll be getting back to Total War, Middle Earth and the assault of the Wain Riders. Kind of feels like that. Like this whole episode is like a tactics episode. We needed Brett Devereaux to join us. Frankly, this would have been really, really good. Perfect for him. Yeah, but before we do get back to it, we want to remind you there's a lot more talk going on at the Prancing Pony podcast than just us.

Matt (25:57)

The PPP has an amazing listener community. They're always coming up with great questions and discussions across all our social media spaces. Check out our Common room on Facebook, our dedicated subreddit, Twitter and more on Facebook.

Alan Sisto (26:10)

Just look for the Prancing Pony podcast. Follow the page to get news, but you're going to want to join the group for some great discussions.

Matt (26:16)

Or if you prefer Reddit, find us there at R Prancingponypod. On Twitter and Instagram, we're simply PrancingPonyPod.

Alan Sisto (26:24)

And if you want daily Tolkien content, check out today's Tolkien Times on YouTube and all your favorite podcast apps. It's my short format daily show with everything from Middle Earth Map Monday to Silmart. And you know if I had a day of the week that started with a K sound I'd have a calendar something day.

Matt (26:42)

You know something.

Alan Sisto (26:44)

Anyway, be sure to check it out at YouTube.com ulkinetimes and follow ulkingtimes on all your social media. But Matt, if you would pick up with the shall we say unprepared onto.

Matt (26:56)

Hair the Wainriders had mustered a great host by the southern shores of the inland sea of Rhun, strengthened by men of their kinsfolk in Rhovanion and from their new allies in Khand. When all was ready, they set out for Gondor from the east, moving with all the speed they could along the line of the Ered Lithui, where their approach was not observed until too late. So it came to pass that the head of the army of Gondor had only drawn level with the gates of Mordor, the Morannon, when a great dust borne on a wind from the east, announced the oncoming of the enemy vanguard. This was composed not only of the war chariots of the Wainriders, but also a force of cavalry far greater than any that had been expected. Ondohere had only time to turn and face the assault with his right flank close to the Morannon, and to send word to Minoctar, captain of the right wing behind, to cover his left flank as swiftly as he could when the chariots and horsemen crashed into his disordered line. Of the confusion of the disaster that followed, few clear reports were ever brought to Gondor. Ondoher was utterly unprepared to meet a charge of horsemen and chariots, and great weight with his guard and his banner. He had hastily taken up a position on a low knoll, but this was of no avail. The main charge was hurled against his banner, and it was captured. His guard was almost annihilated, and he himself was slain, and his son Artemir, at His side. Wow.

Alan Sisto (28:40)

Now we learn just what a disaster this is about to be, don't we? The Wainriders alliance, which included folks from Rhovanion, Ankond, had gathered together to the south of the Sea of Ruins. That's pretty far out there. From there, they traveled, interestingly, along the lines of the Ered Lithui. Those are the mountains of ash that make up the northern line of Mordor. So instead of traveling towards the Dagorlad from the northeast or from the north, as they would if they had come from Rhovanion, they were approaching directly from the east.

Matt (29:09)

Yeah, more than that. Because they were traveling at speed along the edges of the mountains their approach wasn't seen until it was too late. Earlier we talked about how the vanguard of Ondoher's forces hadn't even got to the gates of Mordor. And here we read that they'd only drawn level with them when they could spot the dust clouds announcing the pending arrival of the Wainriders.

Alan Sisto (29:32)

Man, that is trouble. Now, the footnote here is interesting and well worth reading. Christopher explains. There is an isolated note connected to this text that explains a few things. First, that Gondor was still in control of the Moran on itself. And that's interesting because we thought by now the watch had failed. But the two watchtowers built by Gondor were still under their control. These are the ones they built after the defeat of Sauron at the end of the Second Age. And like we talked about in the Philology Fair, those are Karchast, which is to the east. That's Fang Fort. And Narghost, which is the western one. And that's the bitter, biting fort.

Matt (30:03)

But what's interesting here is the road infrastructure. Of course, there's a road going through Ithilien up to the Morannon, and we see that road on the maps. But there's also a road going north toward the Daggerlad, which is not on the maps. And much to Ondoher's dismay at the moment, a road going east along the line of the Ered Lithui.

Alan Sisto (30:25)

And that's where it gets interesting because according to the footnote, the eastward road extended to a point north of the site of Barad Dur. So that goes pretty far over.

Matt (30:34)

Yeah.

Alan Sisto (30:34)

It had never been completed further and what had been made was now long neglected. Nonetheless, its first 50 miles, which had once been fully constructed, greatly speeded the Wainrider's approach. Oops. That's building a road that you're never going to use. That, it turns out, is only Going to benefit your enemy. That is unfortunate.

Matt (30:57)

Yeah.

Alan Sisto (30:57)

But as for the Wainwriter army that's approaching, it not only has the typical chariots used by the Wain riders, but it also includes an unexpectedly large amount of cavalry. So they are moving, or at least their vanguard is moving, at great speed.

Matt (31:10)

As a result, Ondoher didn't have time to position his army to defend against the charge of the chariots and cavalry. And he turns his part of the army, the center, with his right flank close to Moran in itself, and sends messages back to the leader of his right wing.

Alan Sisto (31:27)

And of course, that's Menachtar, who we talked about in the philology fair. He's been now commanded to come up and guard the left flank. Right. He was originally the captain of the right wing. But, you know, on Deher's forces are lined up with his right flank right up against the Moranho, so there's no room. He needs to come around and guard the left flank because the left wing is behind them and isn't going to arrive in time. So he gets those messages off just as his forces are hammered by the cavalry of the Wainriders.

Matt (31:53)

Yeah. It's so bad that the chronicler tells us that few clear reports of this incident ever made it back to Gondor.

Alan Sisto (32:01)

Because very few people survived, is what it sounds like. I mean, this was just a disaster on to her was not ready to defend against a charge of this size. But he does what he can. I mean, you know, he doesn't. He doesn't retreat in the face of the enemy. Right. He. He takes his guard and his banner up onto a low hill. And we have another really cool footnote here as we learn that historians believe. I love that. I love how in depth Tolkien gets in writing this. Right. He's making up himself. Historians, as in the historians in my head, believe this was the same hill as that upon which King Elessar made his stand in the last battle against Sauron, with which the Third Age ended. That's good stuff, isn't it?

Matt (32:38)

I like it. And if it was, it's. It was smaller at this point than it was at the end of the Third Age.

Alan Sisto (32:44)

Yes.

Matt (32:44)

Christopher points us to a passage in the Return of the King Aragorn. Now set the host in such array as could best be contrived. And they were drawn up on two great hills of blasted stone and earth that Orcs had piled in years of labor.

Alan Sisto (33:01)

No Orcs here yet, so no labor. So the hills aren't piled as high. Which might explain why Taking a defensive position on this small hill was of no avail.

Matt (33:10)

Yeah, so planting his banner there certainly draws the attention of the Wainriders, who throw their biggest charge right at him, capturing the banner, killing most of his guard, and killing the king, Ondoher, and his son, Artemir. And, I mean, thank goodness, his other son. Right? Yeah, that's such a good thing.

Alan Sisto (33:32)

Such a good law that says, smart. Take all his heirs with him.

Matt (33:36)

So smart of them. I sure hope nothing bad happens to Pharaoh.

Alan Sisto (33:41)

I know. I hope they're watching him really closely. In the brief part that we skipped, we learned that the bodies of the king and his son were never recovered again. This comes sort of in the same vein, as you know, reports didn't even make it back. I mean, this was so bad that it took a long time for us to figure out what really happened here. The Wainriders don't stop there, of course. They flow right on by charging into the ranks of the Gondorian army, causing disorder and eventually a rout of the center forces.

Matt (34:08)

Yeah. And many of those routed forces head west into the Dead Marshes, which is not a place, you know.

Alan Sisto (34:16)

Yeah, it's kind of your last resort. You don't want to go there.

Matt (34:19)

The definition of a last resort, I.

Alan Sisto (34:21)

Think one star would not recommend. Yeah.

Matt (34:25)

Yeah. Well, with that, let's. Let's keep reading. What do you say, Alan?

Alan Sisto (34:29)

All right. Menachtar took command. He was a man both valiant and war wise. The first fury of the onslaught was spent with far less loss and greater success than the enemy had looked for. The cavalry and chariots now withdrew, for the main host of the Wain riders was approaching. In such time as he had, Menachtar raising his own banner, rallied the remaining men of the center and those of his own command that were at hand, he at once sent messengers to Adrahil of Dol Amroth, the captain of the left wing, commanding him to withdraw with all the speed he could, both his own command and those at the rear of the right wing who had not yet been engaged with these forces. He was to take up a defensive position between Kairandros, which was manned, and the mountains of Efelduath, where, owing to the great eastward loop of the Anduin, the land was at its narrowest. To cover as long as he could the approaches to Minas Tirith. Minochtar himself, to allow time for this retreat, would form a rear guard and attempt to stem the advance of the main host of the Wainriders. Adrahil should at once send messengers to find Earnil, if they could, and inform him of the disaster of the Morannon and of the position of the retreating northern army when the main host of the Wainriders advanced to the attack. It was then two hours after noon and Menophtar had withdrawn his line to the head of the great north road of Ithilien, half a mile beyond the point where it turned east to the watchtowers of the Marrandon. The first triumph of the Wainriders was now the beginning of their undoing. Ignorant of the numbers and ordering of the defending army, they had launched their first onslaught too soon before the greater part of that army had come out of the narrow land of Ithilien. And the charge of their chariots and cavalry had met with a success far swifter and more overwhelming than they had expected. Their main onslaught was then too long delayed and they could no longer use their greater numbers with full effect according to the tactics they had intended. Being accustomed to warfare in open lands, it may well be supposed that, elated by the fall of the king and the rout of a large part of the opposing center, they believed that they had already overthrown the defending army and that their own main army had little more to do than advance to the invasion and occupation of Gondor. If that were so, they were deceived. I love this. This whole story is about, you know, it wasn't this way, but it was this way, but it wasn't this way and it was this way. Like, everybody is completely lacking intelligence.

Matt (37:04)

Yeah, yeah. We start with Minoctar here. He's the captain of the right wing that Ondoher had ordered to come up and around to guard the main force's left flank.

Alan Sisto (37:15)

And now he is in command with the death of Ontoher. And that might be a good thing. Not Ontoher's death, mind you, but Minoctar's command. Because he is described as both valiant and war wise. He's experienced, he knows his battlefield tactics, and he immediately takes stock of the situation.

Matt (37:31)

Yeah, the initial onslaught is over, but the enemy has had it really good so far.

Alan Sisto (37:38)

Yeah, maybe two.

Matt (37:39)

Fewer losses and fewer losses and having more success than even their best case scenario.

Alan Sisto (37:45)

Yeah. But now, as they should, the cavalry and chariots of the Wain riders are pulling back to make way for the main host. So Menochtar rallies his own men along with what was left of Ondoher's men. But before he takes any further action, he sends a message to his equal, the captain of the left wing, and that's Adrahil of Dol Amroth.

Matt (38:04)

Yeah, and there's a footnote about him that gets us into some pretty deep weeds about the title Prince of Dol Amroth and the origin of that house. But long story short, there are two origin stories, one provided by Tolkien later in the story, footnote 39, which we'll get into in three more episodes, and one in the history of Galadriel and Celeborn.

Alan Sisto (38:29)

Now, we'll cover that in the postscript for this episode. So if you're not a member of the Fellowship of the podcast, take care of that and you'll get to hear more on this. Remember, we do 10 to 15 minute postscripts for every chapter based episode, and we have since season two let off all the way back with episode 53. But that's enough of trying to tell you how good the P5s are. All right, knowing we're going to touch on this Adrahil of Dol Amroth problem later, let's go ahead and take a look at the message that was sent to him by Menachtar.

Matt (38:56)

Withdraw. Get back. Take everyone in your own force, as well as those in the back of the right wing that haven't yet been engaged in battle, and fall back to a defensive position in Northern Ithilien between Cair Andros and the Mountains of Shadow, since the land is narrow there. And your job, Adrahill, is to ensure that this Wainrider army can't go south to Minas Tirith unopposed.

Alan Sisto (39:22)

That's right. Your mission, should you choose to accept it.

Matt (39:25)

Yeah, except you don't have a choice.

Alan Sisto (39:28)

Should you choose to accept it.

Matt (39:30)

Because if you don't, well, we're all screwed.

Alan Sisto (39:32)

We're all. Yeah, exactly. But yeah, I mean, his message is simple. Run away, go back now. In the meantime, Menochtar is going to form a rear guard with his remaining forces. That includes, of course, a few remnants of Andoher's center. And he's going to try to slow down the main host while he's doing that, Adra Hill not only needs to take that defensive position, he needs to get word to Earnil about what happened and where he can reunite with the remnant of the Northern army.

Matt (39:59)

Yeah, and once again, we're looking at a very important rear guard battle, just as we've mentioned a couple times in recent episodes.

Alan Sisto (40:07)

Exactly. It's really becoming an important thing, and I think, really, we see that throughout Tolkien. We'll have to one of these days, like, list all the rear guard battles. There's going to be quite a few so we get to the attack now of the Wain Riders, and it's mid afternoon. Right. 2:00 in the afternoon. It's already been a very long day. Menachtar has pulled back to a spot on the road just after it's turned from Ithilien towards the Moran on itself.

Matt (40:31)

And we read that the Wainrider's initial success is described as the beginning of their undoing. And this kind of proves that you can, after all, have too much of a good thing, it seems.

Alan Sisto (40:42)

Yeah, absolutely. Now, briefly, we actually see the beginning of the battle. Now from their perspective, it's very interesting. They didn't have good recon any more than Gondor did. They were ignorant of the numbers. They were ignorant of how Gondor had arrayed their forces.

Matt (40:57)

Yeah. And as a result, they attacked too soon, killing a good chunk of Gondor's army, of course, but including the king.

Alan Sisto (41:05)

Well, yeah, that's important.

Matt (41:07)

Yeah. Having to withdraw before most of the army had come out of Ithilien.

Alan Sisto (41:12)

Exactly. If they just waited for more of the column to come out, they would have been able to wipe out even more of the forces. So their initial success against a smaller part of the army was so overwhelming that they were forced to withdraw. Right. I mean, the idea had, it seems, been to engage with the vanguard of chariots and cavalry and then, while they were engaged, bring up the infantry to overwhelm. But they couldn't do that anymore, could they?

Matt (41:35)

Yeah, they could no longer use their greater numbers with full effect. And it's literally because they attacked too early and were literally too successful.

Alan Sisto (41:45)

Isn't that wild? But that's, of course, the opinion of the Gondorian historians analyzing the battle, or Tolkien's version of the Gondorian historians analyzing the battle. But we also get a suggestion, perhaps from other chroniclers or historians that maybe the Wainwriters believed they'd already routed the entire army and that the only thing left to do was mop up action. Now, in the paragraph we skipped, we read that they do keep riding forward, but not in very good order. They're singing songs, maybe We Are the Champions or its Third Age equivalent. And probably partying as they march.

Matt (42:18)

Yeah, until they head south on the road toward Osgiliath and Minas Tirith, where the land is narrow and the army could only travel in column down the highway.

Alan Sisto (42:29)

And the final line before the text ends, and Christopher then does his best with the notes, is about the road running through a deep cutting. And I cannot help thinking this is the precise place where Faramir and his men ambushed the Horadrim heading to Mordor right after Frodo and Sam encountered them. And that's also the same deep cutting where Aragorn's forces trapped and defeated an attempted ambush. And I'm going to read that from the Black Gate Opens and tell me if you don't think this is exactly where this incident is going to take place. It was near the end of the second day of their march from the crossroads that they first met any offer of battle for a strong force of Orcs and Easterlings attempted to take their leading companies in an ambush. And that was in the very place where Faramir had waylaid the men of Harad. And the road went in a deep cutting through an outthrust of the eastward hills. That's. I mean, to me, that's exactly what's going on here. And, you know, it's a shame the text gets cut off here. Right? I mean, that's. That's really. You know, we're having to go into the notes at that point, but I have a feeling that's. That's what's going to happen next.

Matt (43:34)

Yeah.

Alan Sisto (43:35)

All right, Matt, let's go ahead and leave this battle and head back to Minas Tirith for a little bit and see what's going on with that guy.

Matt (43:43)

Faramir possibly be going on keep hanging.

Alan Sisto (43:45)

Around and ruling the city.

Matt (43:47)

Yeah, yeah, clearly, he's. He's probably just chilling at home. Good thing he's just writing and reading.

Alan Sisto (43:52)

Yeah. Yeah.

Matt (43:54)

Well, let's find out.

Alan Sisto (43:55)

Yeah, we should.

Matt (43:57)

Ondoher's second son, Faramir, was ordered to remain in Minas Tirith as regent, for it was not permitted by the law that both his sons should go into battle at the same time. A similar observation is made earlier in the narrative. But Faramir did not do so. He went to the war in disguise and was slain. The writing is here, almost impossible to decipher, but it seems that Faramir joined the Eotheod and was caught with a party of them as they retreated toward the Dead Marshes. The leader of the Eotheod, whose name is indecipherable after the first element, Mar, came to their rescue. But Faramir died in his arms and it was only when he searched his body that he found tokens that showed that he was the prince. The leader of the Eotheod then went to join Minoctar at the head of the North Road in Ithilien who at that very moment was giving an order for a Message to be taken to the prince in Minas Tirith who was now the king. It was then that the leader of the Eotheod gave him the news that the prince had gone disguised to the battle and had been slain.

Alan Sisto (45:13)

Oops.

Matt (45:14)

Clearly, Faramir is no Eowyn.

Alan Sisto (45:17)

Clearly Faramir is no Faramir. Right?

Matt (45:19)

Yes. He's not even Faramir. He's no Faramir or Eowyn.

Alan Sisto (45:23)

He's no Third Age Faramir here. No Third Age who would know his job. Yeah, yeah. But who also would have been left behind in Minas Tirith by his father. Right?

Matt (45:30)

Yes, he would. It gets left behind in Minas Tirith by Aragorn.

Alan Sisto (45:34)

Exactly. In the very brief line or two that we skipped, Christopher is explaining that the text ends here and the notes are pretty much illegible, which goes for a lot of the things that Tolkien wrote. Right. But Christopher is able to make out a few things, and that's what we'll look at in this section.

Matt (45:49)

Yeah. First, that the Eotheod fought alongside Ondoher.

Alan Sisto (45:53)

Yeah.

Matt (45:53)

And second, where we picked up that the king's younger son Faramir had been made regent in his father's absence and that the law forbade him from going to battle alongside his brother. And the idea there being to maintain the bloodline and ensure that one of the heirs survives.

Alan Sisto (46:11)

Exactly. Faramir.

Matt (46:14)

But apparently Faramir didn't want to be left behind, so he disguises himself and heads off to war and is promptly killed.

Alan Sisto (46:22)

Yes. Bad decisions. Fortunately, Tolkien gives us the circumstances of his death here. First, he explains that Faramir had joined the Eotheod. Now, that makes a little bit of sense, actually, to me. I mean, no matter how good his disguise was, if he had joined a Gondorian unit, it's far more likely that it would have been found out. So, yeah, join people who don't know you. But I have to say, you mentioned Eowyn earlier, and I was already thinking that. Isn't it interesting that here we have a member of the king's family who's not supposed to go to war, stay behind and help the people, gets in disguise and goes and fights with the Eotheod?

Matt (46:58)

Yeah.

Alan Sisto (46:58)

I mean, it's. It's Eowyn, but it's not. Eowyn also doesn't survive.

Matt (47:04)

Yeah. And Eowyn, Eowyn hides among her own people, so she is clearly better at disguises. She is. Yeah. Faramir would have been, I think, also.

Alan Sisto (47:14)

Though, she would have been so unexpectedly.

Matt (47:16)

There, like yes, that's true.

Alan Sisto (47:17)

Even if you'd recognize, you've been like, wow, that guy looks like a one. I mean, right? Yeah, of course he's not here. Yeah.

Matt (47:24)

And also, like, Aowin Eowyn leaves, like, it's risking the same thing. It's risking the. The wiping out of that bloodline.

Alan Sisto (47:34)

She's got an obligation, Right. A duty, a responsibility. We talked about that before. Totally understand why she did it. Not even going to give her grief for doing it because she was fulfilling prophecy, but she had a familial and royal obligation to stay behind and lead her people. Yeah, Right.

Matt (47:49)

We trust in the line of Aeorl.

Alan Sisto (47:50)

The House of Eorl. Yeah. I remember that because Han was like, well, house of Eorl. Yeah. But we got everybody in the House of Eorles going. Yeah. Did you forget about Eowyn? Because Eowyn's pretty interesting.

Matt (47:59)

I love that. I love that moment.

Alan Sisto (48:01)

That's great. Yeah. Faramir here. It's just so interesting to see this parallel, especially with this guy's name being Faramir.

Matt (48:09)

Yeah.

Alan Sisto (48:09)

Yeah. All right, so what happens to him?

Matt (48:11)

Easy connection there. Yeah.

Alan Sisto (48:13)

So.

Matt (48:13)

So while fighting with the Aotheod, they retreat toward the dead marshes. And remember earlier in this episode when we read about the Wainriders driving deep into the disordered ranks of Gondor, hurling them back in confusion upon those behind and scattering and pursuing many others westward into the dead marshes?

Alan Sisto (48:34)

Yeah. I mean, and that's exactly the retreat that is impacting Faramir here, while the unnamed leader of the Eotheod. According to Christopher Tolkien, it starts with that mar prefix, which is Gothic for horse, kind of like the AO prefix is for the later Rohirrim. While that guy eventually came to their rescue, it was too late when he searched the body. And I had to wonder, like, do they have time in the middle of the battle to be searching bodies? But I think it's because he realized, I don't recognize this guy. He's not one of my people.

Matt (49:01)

Yeah.

Alan Sisto (49:02)

And he looks like an outsider. He's not tall and blonde like all of us. Right. Maybe he's even a Gondorian. That's when he finds evidence of some kind that he's actually the Prince of Gondor. Oh, no. I gotta break some bad news to somebody.

Matt (49:16)

Yeah. And he personally goes to Minoctar while they're preparing the defense in Ithilien at the exact moment that Minoctar was sending a message to Faramir, supposedly still in Minas Tirith, telling him, you're the new king, buddy.

Alan Sisto (49:32)

Congratulations on your promotion. Also, sorry your dad's dead. Yeah.

Matt (49:36)

Yeah. But instead he finds out that Faramir was here and had been killed. And now I'm kind of thinking of that moment where Eomer suddenly finds his wounded sister on the Pellinor. Like, she's not even supposed to be there. Like, totally out of left field, you know?

Alan Sisto (49:51)

What the. What?

Matt (49:53)

Yeah.

Alan Sisto (49:54)

Oh, man. And I gotta say, I mean, I know in. In the books that's. That's a moment, right, when. When they see her being brought back in, but in the films, Karl Urban just nails that moment, right? I mean, what an emotional.

Matt (50:06)

Such a guttural. Like, just that scream.

Alan Sisto (50:09)

You feel it all the way to your core.

Matt (50:11)

Yeah.

Alan Sisto (50:12)

Now, in the last paragraph of this section that we did end up skipping, we learned the whole point of this section, why it was included. And I mean, this entire last two episodes, right? Why are we talking about a battle between the Wainriders and Gondor hundreds of years before Cirion and Eorl when this is supposedly the Chronicles of Cirion and Eorl?

Matt (50:32)

Yeah, because they fought alongside Gondor again. And because this leader of the Eotheod brought news of Faramir's death to Minoctar. That's why the story makes it in here.

Alan Sisto (50:44)

Yeah, absolutely. Good enough for me. All right, folks, we'll come right back after the break. Now, folks, if you're enjoying the ppp, please consider supporting the show by joining the Fellowship of the Podcast. It's what gives me the time and resources to work on making this show better every season. When you join, you get the best discord community around. That includes live episode recordings and hangouts every month. You also get really cool episode post scripts. You can get an ad free feed. You can get free merch and more.

Matt (51:30)

You can also become part of our questions after Nightfall episodes or even join us as a guest in the north wing. So Please go to patreon.com prancingponypod to show your support and join the Fellowship of the Podcast.

Alan Sisto (51:45)

Of course, you can always help us out by giving us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts and a rating on Spotify. And please recommend us to your friends.

Matt (51:53)

Well, with that, let's get to our last reading of this episode. Alan, would you do the honors, please?

Alan Sisto (51:58)

I will indeed. Christopher says the concluding passage of the fully written text gives the impression that the host of the Wain Riders were about to receive a check to their exaltation and elation as they came down the highway into the deep cutting. But the notes at the end show that they were not long held up by the rearguard. Defense of Menachtar. The Wain riders poured relentlessly into Ithilien, and late on the 13th day of Karmiye, they overwhelmed Menochtar, who was slain by an arrow. He is here said to have been King Ondaher's sister son. His men carried him out of the fray, and all that remained of the rearguard fled southwards to find Adra Hill. The chief commander of the Wain riders then called a halt to the advance and held a feast. Nothing more can be made out, but the brief account in Appendix A to the Lord of the Rings tells how Earnil came up from the south and routed them. In 1944, King Ondaher and both his sons Artemir and Faramir, fell in battle north of the Marannon, and the enemy poured into Ithilien. But Earnil, captain of the southern army, won a great victory in South Ithilien and destroyed the army of Harad that had crossed the River Poros. Hastening north, he gathered to him all that he could of the retreating northern army and came up against the main camp of the Wainriders. While they were feasting and reveling. Believing that Gondor was overthrown and that nothing remained but to take the spoil, Earnil stormed the camp and set fire to the wanes and drove the enemy in a great rout out of Ithilien. A great part of those who fled before him perished in the Dead marshes. So after giving us that quote from the appendix, Christopher Tolkien comes back in and explains in the Tale of Years, the victory of Earnil is called the Battle of the Camp. After the deaths of Ondoher and both his sons at the Morannon, Arvedui, last king of the Northern realm, laid claim to the crown of Gondor, but his claim was rejected. And in the year following the Battle of the Camp, Earnil became king. His son was Earnur, who died in Minas Morgul after accepting the challenge of the Lord of the Nazgul, and was the last of the kings of the southern realm.

Matt (54:07)

So we start with more of Christopher's note here as he tries to give us what he can of the final passage, which is still presumably mostly illegible.

Alan Sisto (54:17)

Pretty much describes Tolkien's corpus.

Matt (54:19)

I mean. Yeah, well, like, we've said this before, I know, on previous episodes, you know, seeing them in person, you know, up at Marquette, like, you really get an appreciation for the work that Christopher did.

Alan Sisto (54:34)

Yeah. As well as all the other scholars, I mean.

Matt (54:36)

Oh, yeah. Like. Yeah, not to minimize the others.

Alan Sisto (54:40)

I'm thinking of Carl Hostetter for Nature of Middle Earth. All these things that required digging through. Or a History of the Hobbit, John Ratliff. I mean, the stuff that Tolkien wrote was so hard to read sometimes.

Matt (54:52)

Yeah. Now he's able to determine that the impression of the final passage is that the Wainwriters are about to get humbled or receive a check to their exaltation and elation.

Alan Sisto (55:05)

I do love the way Christopher puts that. Right. Oh, they're going to receive a check to their exaltation. They're going to get smacked down.

Matt (55:13)

Yeah.

Alan Sisto (55:14)

But whatever actually happened there in the cutting, Christopher is only able to point out the notes at the end, which suggested that they honestly weren't held up long by Menochtar's valiant rear guard action.

Matt (55:24)

Yeah.

Alan Sisto (55:24)

And that's just, you know, overwhelming numbers. Quantity has a quality all its own. Specifically, the Wainriders poured relentlessly into Ithilien. And late on the 13th day of Kermiye, they overwhelmed Menachtar, killing him with an arrow shot. And that, of course, is the very next day after the death of ondeher, on the 12th of Kermiye.

Matt (55:43)

Yeah. We also learn here that Menochtar was Ondoher's nephew.

Alan Sisto (55:47)

Yeah.

Matt (55:47)

And that after he was shot, he was carried out of the fray and all that remained of the rear guard fled southwards to find Adrahil.

Alan Sisto (55:58)

I'm beginning to. This is not in our notes at all, but all of a sudden I just thought about this. Menachtar was Ondoher's nephew. Might he have been the king had he survived instead of Earnil?

Matt (56:10)

That's a great point.

Alan Sisto (56:11)

I mean, Earnil's of royal descent, but you have to go back, I think, three generations for him to trace his ancestry to a king.

Matt (56:17)

Yeah, it's a while.

Alan Sisto (56:19)

Yeah.

Matt (56:19)

Interesting.

Alan Sisto (56:20)

Whereas clearly Menochtar, who was valiant and war wise and had a much closer kinship with the king, might have had. That. Might have had the upper hand in that claim. That's interesting. Oh, if only because really. And it's not Earnil's fault, it's his son Earnur. But the whole reason why that kingship dies and why the stewardship has to rule for a millennium is because of Earnur.

Matt (56:47)

Yeah, because of him taking the bait of the Witch King, like. Yeah. How would this have played out differently if you had? I don't know. Maybe someone of Adrahill's line has more restraint.

Alan Sisto (57:00)

Oh, oh, even Adrahel. I was thinking of Menoktar, but, yeah. Adrahil of Dol Amroth. I don't know.

Matt (57:05)

Oh, sorry. Yes. I meant Minochtar.

Alan Sisto (57:07)

Okay. I wasn't sure. Yeah. Because that would have been interesting, too, to see. But that's a whole separate royal line. The Prince of Dol Amroth line. But, yeah, it's just an interesting. What if, you know, if Menoptar had survived and then become king, because then we wouldn't have had Biff in Minas Morgul issuing the challenge and calling, you know, King Marty McFly chicken. Because that's really what happens.

Matt (57:29)

It is, Yeah.

Alan Sisto (57:30)

I do love that. Right.

Matt (57:31)

There's no reason for him to do that.

Alan Sisto (57:33)

None. Don't be stupid, man. Don't. Anyway, just. I'm coming back to the Wainriders here, though, and thinking you've just poured relentlessly into Bethilien. You've killed the king, you've now killed the next in command. Matt, you and I both follow sports. You know the old adage in. In pretty much every sport. But I'm thinking particularly in football, right? Don't let your foot off the gas. You've got a big lead. Don't take it easy and coast. Crush your opponent. Don't let them get back in the game.

Matt (58:03)

Yeah, same thing, you know, basketball, whatever. Anything.

Alan Sisto (58:05)

Exactly. You've got a 30 point lead going into the fourth quarter. Don't just decide, oh, I'm going to play my rookies in the fourth quarter and hope that they don't lose the lead. Right.

Matt (58:14)

Yeah.

Alan Sisto (58:14)

Step on the gas. Keep your opponent down. The Wainwriters clearly have not heard this suggestion as they stop their advance and hold a feast.

Matt (58:23)

Yeah.

Alan Sisto (58:24)

It's time to party, guys. We just killed the second in command.

Matt (58:27)

This in the bag.

Alan Sisto (58:28)

Yeah. Yeah.

Matt (58:29)

And. And that's when Christopher just lifts a section straight out of Appendix A to tell us what happened. But we've read it here, just as we read it a few episodes ago, so there's no need to fully discuss it again.

Alan Sisto (58:42)

No.

Matt (58:43)

After Ar Nel defeated the Horadrim in South Athelian, he went north, gathering retreating soldiers as he went. And while the Wainriders are doing their partying, he comes up and storms the camp, burns the wagons. Routed them. And many of them are dying in.

Alan Sisto (59:00)

The Dead Marshes along with the ones that they had routed earlier.

Matt (59:04)

Yes.

Alan Sisto (59:04)

I mean, that's so. I mean, the Dead Marshes are just again trying to avoid that place. Yeah.

Matt (59:08)

Yeah.

Alan Sisto (59:09)

We then return to Christopher's notes as he Reminds us that this was called the Battle of the Camp. At least according to the Tale of Years. That's Appendix B. Then we get a recap of what Don and I talked about several episodes back in both 347 and 349. And that's the claim of Arvedwi after the death of Ondoher and his sons. Gondor's refusal of his claim, the rise to kingship of Earnil, the victorious captain followed by his fool of a son and his decision to accept the Witch King's challenge. Interestingly, the text in Appendix A leaves room for quite questions. As we read back then, Earnur had held the crown only seven years when the Lord of Morgul repeated his challenge, taunting the king that to the faint heart of his youth he had now added the weakness of age. Okay, sidebar. I might actually feel like I had to accept that challenge at that point. Screw you, man.

Matt (60:02)

50'S the new 40.

Alan Sisto (60:03)

That's right, that's right. Then Mardyll could no longer restrain him and he rode with a small escort of knights to the gate of Minas Morgul. And this is the line I want to pay attention to. None of that writing were ever heard of again. It was believed in Gondor that the faithless enemy had trapped the king and that he died in torment in Minas Morgul. Okay, that leaves room for interpretation. But what about this?

Matt (60:25)

Yeah, so it says it was believed in Gondor that he had died in torment. But it's kind of one of those some say moments.

Alan Sisto (60:34)

Exactly.

Matt (60:35)

But here Christopher seems to explicitly state that that Earnur died in Minas Morgul after accepting the Witch King's challenge. So what do we. What do we make of this?

Alan Sisto (60:46)

You know, Alan, part of me wants to think that's Christopher just drawing the logical conclusion that this some say is true. Right.

Matt (60:52)

Yeah.

Alan Sisto (60:52)

Because what do we say about the some says? 9 times out of 10, the some says are exactly what happened.

Matt (60:57)

Yeah, the some says are pretty, pretty reliable.

Alan Sisto (61:01)

They really are.

Matt (61:02)

Whatever the sum are, they say a lot of right things.

Alan Sisto (61:05)

Yeah, I mean, the only one that I'm not 100% sure on is Tuor. And some say he was considered, you know, an elf.

Matt (61:12)

Oh, interesting.

Alan Sisto (61:13)

I'm not sure that that one means really what it says. I think that might be one of the some says that isn't true.

Matt (61:19)

So you think Tuor just died a mortal death?

Alan Sisto (61:21)

Well, I don't think that The Valar don't have the authority to take the gift of men away from mortals. So I don't know that they could grant him that. You can take an elf or a.

Matt (61:30)

Half, they can put it on their Christmas list and ERU can grant it if he chooses.

Alan Sisto (61:36)

I suppose. I suppose that's true. But I mean, you know, I don't know. I mean I don't even know that can ERU undo what he's already done? That's sort of like the whole can God make a rock so big he can't lift it? I mean, don't even ask. That's just one of those philosophical you're never going to get an answer you like kind of thing.

Matt (61:52)

Right.

Alan Sisto (61:52)

But yeah, I have a feeling like no. Tuor still had to die and leave the circles of the world because he was a mortal man. But anyway, other than that. And I know that's a long digression to say that most of the some says are really what happened accurate.

Matt (62:07)

Yeah.

Alan Sisto (62:08)

So in this case it's maybe Christopher just saying. Yeah. It does seem to look like he died. I like having the room for interpretation that he didn't really die. That he became sort of like a lesser wraith. I really do like that, that spin that Lotro put on it.

Matt (62:25)

But you know, we could just go shadow a Mordor route and he becomes a.

Alan Sisto (62:29)

A ring ray. That's the thing.

Matt (62:31)

Yeah, let's. Everybody gets a ring.

Alan Sisto (62:32)

Everybody gets a ring. You get a ring, Helm Hammerhand gets a ring.

Matt (62:36)

Yeah.

Alan Sisto (62:37)

Shelob gets a sexy black dress. Such a. Don't get me started on that.

Matt (62:42)

Oh, there we go. We got started on that.

Alan Sisto (62:45)

We really did.

Matt (62:46)

Yeah. I think it's a fair conclusion to draw.

Alan Sisto (62:50)

Oh it is, yeah. I'm certainly not disagreeing. I mean Christopher's probably right. I just like the idea of there being a little bit of. Of room to play on this one.

Matt (62:59)

Yeah. I do think like he died in torment that like it's very open ended. How long that torment lasted?

Alan Sisto (63:07)

Oh yeah, hundreds.

Matt (63:08)

Like it could be. Yeah. At least decades, you know, who knows?

Alan Sisto (63:12)

Yeah. I mean could they artificially extend his life, you know, and make it centuries as opposed to.

Matt (63:17)

Yeah.

Alan Sisto (63:18)

You know, him having to die. Human age.

Matt (63:21)

Yeah. It kind of reminds me of the mouth of Sauron where he talks about the torment of years. And I'll get the exact quote here.

Alan Sisto (63:30)

Yeah, go for it.

Matt (63:31)

Yeah. And now he shall endure the slow torment of years. As long and slow as our art in the great tower can contrive and never be released unless maybe when he is changed and broken so that he may come to you and you shall see what you have done.

Alan Sisto (63:54)

Oh, oh, nicely done. A nice voice for the, for the mouth of Sauron there.

Matt (64:02)

But, yeah, it's. It sounds like they've got some, you know, they've got a particular set of skills.

Alan Sisto (64:08)

Well, you know, I mean, and I know it's not canon, and let me just repeat that. It is not canon, but in the Rings of Power recently, Annatar, right, he's torturing Celebrimbor and he's basically implying I can keep you alive for a long time if I really want to. And then he loses his temper and kills him. Right?

Matt (64:25)

Immediately, yes. Yeah. I just think of my passing reference at Liam Neeson there particular set of skills.

Alan Sisto (64:32)

I like that.

Matt (64:33)

Yeah, he can hook him up to the electricity, keep him alive for a while.

Alan Sisto (64:39)

Well, in the tale of years, the victory of Barliman is called the Battle of the Bag. After the deaths of Bob and Nob and their sons at the Prancing Pony.

Matt (64:47)

Poor Bob and Knob killed off Bob and Knob, man.

Alan Sisto (64:51)

What did they do? Right. All right, Matt, what does Bartolin have in the bag for us tonight?

Matt (64:57)

All right, we're hearing from Donald in Ohio today who says we've seen a lot of depictions of Middle Earth over the years. Rankin Bass, Ralph Bakshi, Peter Jackson, the Amazon show, and now Kenji Kameyama. Ah, what filmmakers would you love to see take on Middle Earth? Oh, that's an interesting one.

Alan Sisto (65:23)

That is because I'm not super well versed in cinema. This would been a great question for Sean. He knows his movie directors and producers really well.

Matt (65:32)

One that I definitely don't want is John Boorman.

Alan Sisto (65:36)

Oh, my goodness. The Borman script. The Borman script. We should do a whole, like, intro episode on the.

Matt (65:42)

The Borman script. Yeah, I know.

Alan Sisto (65:43)

I'm going to talk about that. In the sequel to why We Love Middle Earth. I've got a whole chapter that I'm cooking up on adaptations that never were. That includes the Borman script, the Zimmerman script or treatment. The. The notional idea of a Beatles adaptation with Stanley Kubrick as the director.

Matt (66:02)

Yeah. Now Kubrick. Kubrick is one that you can, you can imagine, like, how crazy that would have gotten.

Alan Sisto (66:09)

Well, it would have been about 37 hours. It would have to be. I mean, I, I think it would really be slow, but maybe that would be good. I can think of one other I wouldn't want it to be. And it's the one that the Weinstein brothers threatened Peter Jackson with. Do you remember?

Matt (66:24)

Yeah, Quentin Tarantino, right?

Alan Sisto (66:26)

Quentin Tarantino kill Bill.

Matt (66:28)

Like that.

Alan Sisto (66:29)

No, that would have been. That Would have been awesome. I don't think so, really. I think it would have been interesting to see the Hobbit films directed by Guillermo del Toro.

Matt (66:38)

Guillermo del Toro. I think the monster work would have been the most interesting.

Alan Sisto (66:42)

I think it would have been.

Matt (66:43)

He's got such a unique out of the box vision. Yeah, very out of the box. Like, and I've, I've seen some of like the designs for like, Smaug when.

Alan Sisto (66:54)

Yeah.

Matt (66:54)

He was in charge. And like, they are, they're very different. Yeah, they're wild. Some of them are very wild, which is all part of the process. Like it is. You get that for, for any of the adaptations, like, there's some, you know, they, they let those artists run. Run wild and then see what. What sticks. Yeah. But this, this is an interesting. What if. I love that we immediately thought of ones that we did.

Alan Sisto (67:17)

It's so much easier to think of ones I don't want. Right. I don't want particular styles.

Matt (67:22)

You know, I, I do have one that I, I think would be a fantastic director for a new adaptation of the Hobbit and that is Paul King, whose work you would know from directing the Paddington movies.

Alan Sisto (67:45)

Oh. Oh, yeah.

Matt (67:46)

Those were the new. In the new Wonka movie. In the new Wonka movie.

Alan Sisto (67:51)

That actually would be a really good spin on the hobby. You really could turn that into a. Just a gripping children's tale.

Matt (67:58)

Yeah. And I think that's the thing is, like, I don't think, I don't think his style would necessarily work for a prequel to a Peter Jackson film, to Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings. But I do think the, the whimsy and the charm that all of his films seem to have, or at least the ones that I've watched of his.

Alan Sisto (68:19)

Definitely whimsy comes to mind.

Matt (68:20)

Yeah, right. The whimsy and the charm like that is the Hobbit. The Hobbit is so, so unique in the whole Middle Earth Legendarium in that it is a children's tale. And I just, I look at, you know, I, I just am delighted every time I watch Wonka in particular. I'm like, this is just a delightful movie. And so, yeah, I think, I think he is one that could nail the charm aspect of a children's tale. Like the Hobbit, maybe.

Alan Sisto (68:53)

You know, I have to say, if we're going to stick with the Hobbit ideas, maybe another sort of really unusual sort of creative take on it would be Wes Anderson. I'm thinking of the Grand Budapest Hotel or even he did a Stop motion film. Fantastic. Mr. Fox that I think would, I can imagine possibly the Hobbit coming along in that sort of vein.

Matt (69:17)

I have to. This is one of those confession things because I know a lot of people love Wes Anderson films. I've never, I've only seen a couple.

Alan Sisto (69:25)

Of them and they were just never like.

Matt (69:27)

Yeah, they're, they're, it's a very unique style. I've seen like the, the CR and this is, I'm gonna reveal my thoughts on, on AI stuff pretty easily here. Yeah, I've seen the AI like Lord of the Rings by We. And I find it atrocious.

Alan Sisto (69:43)

They don't think that would be him either, by the way.

Matt (69:45)

But yeah, I, and not to like equate that with the filmmaker's actual work, but of course it's a very unique visual style and everything. But.

Alan Sisto (69:55)

Yeah, I just, yeah. Now I'm thinking all these other unusual. I remember I was like, I don't really know anybody, but I'm like, you know, the more I think about it, there are some others whose style would be really interesting. I'm thinking Tim Burton would have a really interesting take.

Matt (70:10)

You know who I. And like this is, it's funny because like you're, you're coming up with like these really interesting visual style ones.

Alan Sisto (70:18)

Yeah, yeah.

Matt (70:18)

Unique style is what I'm, My, my mind is going a totally different direction and I'm thinking of someone who has really pulled off a, an adaptation on the same scale.

Alan Sisto (70:31)

Yeah, that's.

Matt (70:32)

And you already know, I can tell by your face.

Alan Sisto (70:34)

Yeah.

Matt (70:34)

When I say Denis Villeneuve.

Alan Sisto (70:36)

Yeah, there we go.

Matt (70:37)

That was, that's exactly who you're.

Alan Sisto (70:39)

You know why I didn't say him before as the very first one off the. Oh, his. Because I didn't know how to pronounce his name correctly. So.

Matt (70:44)

Thank you.

Alan Sisto (70:45)

That's literally the only reason why I didn't mention that. But yeah, Dune. Fantastic. And I can only imagine that his take on the Lord of the Rings would be really.

Matt (70:55)

Well, I think he's, he's shown a capability with adaptation that.

Alan Sisto (70:59)

Yeah, he has.

Matt (70:59)

You know, that's what I'm thinking doing Dune, you know, and even he did Blade Runner 2049, which, which I thought was fantastic. Yeah. Which like as a sequel to a, to a classic movie. Yeah, yeah, that's, that's no small feat there. So. Yeah, I think he would, he would be a really inspired choice.

Alan Sisto (71:19)

Yeah, I, I, that's if I'm going to go first choice.

Matt (71:21)

It's that, that's a Dang, good one.

Alan Sisto (71:23)

Let's avoid. Let's see some other ones that we should avoid. I don't want to insult anybody, but maybe Michael Bay would not be a good choice for the Lord of the Rings, shall we say? Yeah, I don't think we need more lens flare.

Matt (71:36)

I'm already like, I'm still getting over what Bayhem did to the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, so don't even talk to me about Tolkien.

Alan Sisto (71:45)

No, I don't want to do that. I mean, I guess you could look at directors who are really good with big, big budgets because this is a big budget project. I mean, if anybody's going to try to redo the Lord of the Rings, so you're obviously going to be looking at names like Christopher Nolan, Steven Spielberg. I don't think Spielberg's a good fit for it. I love Spielberg's work. I really, really do. He's one of the very best of our time, but I just don't see his style working with, with the Lord of the Rings. But I also don't know that I see Christopher Nolan working well with it again. He's got some great films out there.

Matt (72:16)

I think he's beyond kind of like the franchise thing too. After, after doing Batman, I think he's. He seems to be more interested in doing his own niche.

Alan Sisto (72:25)

Yeah.

Matt (72:26)

His own things, you know, original stories, they.

Alan Sisto (72:28)

Things that make you think. For sure.

Matt (72:30)

Yeah. Or things that you think make you think. That's.

Alan Sisto (72:34)

That's fair. That's fair.

Matt (72:35)

I think.

Alan Sisto (72:36)

Pseudo intellectual. Yeah.

Matt (72:38)

Yeah. That's where I'm trying to think of what, what's the recent, the most recent film that he made? Well, he did Oppenheimer, but it was before that. Tenet was the one.

Alan Sisto (72:48)

Yeah.

Matt (72:49)

Where I was like. I was like. I don't know. I think maybe, maybe we're. We're trying to be too intellectual.

Alan Sisto (72:54)

We're reading too much into it here. Like, maybe this is not as deep as we think it is.

Matt (72:58)

I'm like, I'm like, once we got, Once we got past Inception and like interstellar, that kind of area.

Alan Sisto (73:04)

Wow. Wow.

Matt (73:05)

I really, I really like Interstellar.

Alan Sisto (73:07)

Same.

Matt (73:07)

Yeah.

Alan Sisto (73:08)

Interesting. You know, maybe we need to. I think we had a touch on this once before. It was like, name one of Tolkien's works that you'd want to see adapted and by whom? Because I remember I was thinking for some of the more interesting, some of the more like unusual non legendarium stories, I think I was the one who suggested Wes Anderson for possibly Smith of Wooten Major, giving us that Real sense of fairy. I think we could do some other really interesting ideas too. I think Farmer Giles of Ham would be an interesting little satirical comedy. And you could have. I mean, I almost think that would be good as an animation or as. Oh, wait, wait, wait. Okay, wait, hear me out. Okay. Farmer Giles of Ham told in the style of Shawn the sheep.

Matt (73:57)

Oh, interesting. Yeah, one of those Aardman. Aardman entertainment, claymation stop motion stuff.

Alan Sisto (74:07)

I mean, wouldn't that be perfect to see his. His cow and his horse and the dragon and. Oh, man, that would be. In his dog Garm. That would be great fun. So much fun. Good stuff. That was a fun discussion. I really enjoyed. That was a good question. So thank you, folks. That does wrap it up for another episode of the Prancing Pony podcast, I promise. I know this is a little bit shorter than most of them, but that's okay. Next week we'll make up for it with a longer one. Come back next week when Kyrion would prefer to have sent a text message as we continue the story of Kirjan and Aoral.

Matt (74:42)

Yeah, I think text message would definitely have a lower body count.

Alan Sisto (74:46)

Yeah, no doubt.

Matt (74:47)

Casualty rate much safer.

Alan Sisto (74:49)

Six. Yeah.

Matt (74:51)

Now, Alan and I want to thank the members of Team PPP here today. Editor Jordan Rannells, Barlaman, Becca Davis, social media manager Casey Hilsey, Event and Patreon, community coordinator Katie McKenna, graphic artist Megan Collins and website guru Phil Dean.

Alan Sisto (75:08)

And please take a minute to check out the prancingpony podcast dot com. That's where you'll find our show notes, outtakes, Prancing Pony ponderings, as well as our online storefront where you can get PPP merch, including all the really cool episode artwork that Megan's been doing for the show over the last two plus seasons.

Matt (75:24)

You'll also want to visit our library page. The Prancing Pony podcast is, after all, a podcast about the books. So if you're interested in a book we've mentioned on the show, you'll find a link for it in our library. We do get a small amount of compensation when you make your purchase, and we thank you for that.

Alan Sisto (75:40)

Indeed we do. And we also want to thank our patrons at the Cirdan's contribution tier. I'll start with Demay in Alaska, Chad in Texas, Lance in New Jersey, Paul in Colorado, Joseph in Michigan, Kathy from North Carolina, Carl Carlos in California, Brian in the uk, Jerry from Washington, Joe in Washington, Irwin from the Netherlands, Ben in Minnesota, Anthony in Texas, June in Ireland, Zaksu in Illinois, Sarah in New Jersey, Joshua in Massachusetts, Lucy in Texas, Keith in Alabama, and Erica in Texas.

Matt (76:10)

There's also Carson in Oklahoma, Vivian in California, James in Massachusetts, Ann in Kentucky, Sean in New Jersey, Mason in California, Maureen from Massachusetts, Olivia in London, Robert in Arizona, Nick in Wisconsin, Lewis in South Carolina, Thomas in Germany, Craig in California, Bailey in Texas, Kevin in Massachusetts, Julie in Washington, Bruce in California, Joe in Maryland, Nathan in Arizona, and Kevin in Pennsylvania. Thank you all so very much for your support indeed.

Alan Sisto (76:42)

Thank you.

Matt (76:43)

Make sure you don't you don't miss any episodes of the Prancing Pony podcast. Subscribe now through Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or your favorite podcast app.

Alan Sisto (76:52)

And one last thing. As always, don't forget to send your thoughts, comments, and most of all, how Faramir died in your arms tonight to barnaman@the prancingponypodcast.com you thought you might get away without hearing about how he died in his arms. You knew I couldn't avoid that.

Matt (77:09)

Yes. And folks, if you want your voice literally heard, well, just send audio of your question. Maybe you singing your question?

Alan Sisto (77:16)

No, no, please don't even I it's too much singing already. There be no singing here.

Matt (77:23)

Well, however you want to send it, visit podinbox.com prancingponypod and record your question for us. Please be sure to still email the question to Barliman, though.

Alan Sisto (77:35)

Yeah, even though Barlaman's been a lot more reliable lately, there is still a lot of mail to sort through. We'll try to get to you just as soon as we're able. As always, though, this has been far too short a time to spend among such excellent and admirable listeners.

Matt (77:47)

But until next time, this is the end. We are going. We are leaving now. Goodbye.