356 – Hold On

Summary

The Prancing Pony Podcast - Episode 356: "Hold On"
Release Date: January 26, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 356 of The Prancing Pony Podcast, hosts Alan Sisto and Matt Marchese delve deep into the rich tapestry of J.R.R. Tolkien's Middle-earth. This episode, titled "Hold On," continues their exploration of Tolkien's legendarium, blending detailed analysis with engaging discussions and humor.

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Guest Interview: Olivia Oddie in the North Wing

Olivia Oddie, a passionate Tolkien enthusiast and patron of the podcast, joins Alan and Matt in the North Wing section of the show. Olivia shares her lifelong love for Tolkien’s works, beginning with her mother's reading of The Hobbit when she was six years old.

• Background & Family Influence
  Olivia explains her mixed heritage—half English, half Italian—and how her family's shared admiration for Tolkien spurred her own interest.

  [03:16] Olivia: "It's a fantastic way to be altogether loving it. And I am slowly corrupting all my great nephews and nieces to the true Tolkien way."

• Favorite Works & Characters
  She reveals her favorite book in the legendarium is The Fall of Gondolin, specifically admiring the character Idril for her strength and resilience. Olivia also mentions Smith of Wooten Major as her favorite non-legendarium work by Tolkien.

  [06:06] Olivia: "So my favorite legendarium is in fact the Fall of Gondolin."

• Tolkien Community Involvement
  Olivia discusses her active participation in Tolkien-related events, particularly the Oxenfurt Moot, highlighting the blend of scholarship and community spirit.

  [07:38] Olivia: "Oxenfurt, to me, is the absolute epitome of, of Tolkien meetups."

• Lightning Round Highlights
  Olivia's quick responses showcase her deep connection to Middle-earth, with Frodo as her favorite character and Idril her favorite elf from the First Age. She expresses a strong affinity for Rivendell and a desire to reside in Third Age Gondor.

  [08:42] Alan: "Who's your favorite character in the Lord of the Rings?"
  [08:44] Olivia: "Frodo."

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Story Reading & Analysis: "The Ride of Eorl"

Alan and Matt transition into a detailed reading and discussion of The Ride of Eorl, a pivotal event in Tolkien's history of Middle-earth. This segment combines narrated excerpts with thoughtful analysis.

• Summary of Events
  The reading outlines Gondor's alliance with the Eotheod (later known as the Rohirrim) during a time of mounting threats from the Balcoth and other hostile forces. The narrative covers the perilous journey of messengers, particularly focusing on the heroic ride of Borondir.

  [10:53] Alan: "The Ride of EORL While the Eotheod still dwelt in their former home..."

• Character Spotlight: Borondir
  The hosts highlight Borondir’s bravery and dedication, emphasizing his crucial role in delivering Gondor’s plea for aid. They discuss the logistical challenges of such a journey, including distances covered and the physical toll on both rider and horse.

  [06:10] Olivia: "I sort of hero worship Idril, kind of."

• Notable Quotes & Insights
  Alan provides notable quotes from the transcript to underscore key points, such as Eorl’s swift decision-making and the strategic importance of Gondor's alliances.

  [14:03] Alan: "They certainly have contributed a lot of blood in both senses."

• Tolkien’s Storytelling Mastery
  The discussion delves into Tolkien’s ability to create believable yet extraordinary journeys, comparing Borondir’s ride to Aragorn’s epic travels. They also touch upon the feasibility of such feats, consulting equine experts to analyze the plausibility of the distances covered in the lore.

  [56:17] Matt: "If Boron Deer was riding a few hours alternating gates, then stopping a few to rest the horse and let him eat..."

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Listener Mailbag: Expanding Middle-earth

The episode features a compelling listener question from Justin in California, pondering whether the Tolkien estate would permit new writers to expand Middle-earth with additional books or complete unfinished stories like The Fall of Gondolin.

• Tolkien’s Stance on Posthumous Works
  Alan and Matt reference Tolkien’s own letters, particularly Letter #131, where he expresses hesitance about other authors expanding his world, emphasizing the importance of "other minds and hands" in different media rather than literary fiction.

  [96:40] Alan: "The cycles should be linked to a majestic whole and yet leave scope for other minds and hands."

• Comparison to Other Literary Estates
  The hosts compare the Tolkien estate's approach to that of Isaac Asimov’s, highlighting the challenges and potential pitfalls of allowing external authors to add to established universes. They express a desire for expansions to occur through different media such as music, drama, or visual arts rather than new literary works.

  [104:49] Alan: "I really hope they don't go down that road."

• Community Engagement
  The discussion underscores the passion within the Tolkien fan community for maintaining the integrity of Middle-earth, while also acknowledging the creative possibilities in various storytelling formats.

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Conclusion

Episode 356 of The Prancing Pony Podcast seamlessly blends in-depth lore exploration with engaging character discussions and thoughtful listener interactions. Alan and Matt continue to honor Tolkien’s legacy by fostering a rich community of enthusiasts and providing insightful analyses that deepen the appreciation of Middle-earth.

Notable Quotes:

• "Frodo." – Olivia (05:48)
• "They do the thing." – Matt (63:52)
• "Write it in music, you know, and put it with an adaptation." – Matt (107:00)

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Join the Fellowship

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Don’t miss out on future episodes as Alan and Matt continue their journey through Middle-earth, uncovering hidden tales and celebrating the enduring magic of Tolkien’s universe.

Transcript

[Alan Sisto]

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[Matt]

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[Alan Sisto]

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[Matt]

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[Alan Sisto]

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[Matt]

That's right, we give them news of what's happening around here and are still akin to the Dunedyne. Maybe. Maybe.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Folks, pull up a bench in the common room and join us.

[Alan Sisto]

Distantly related.

[Matt]

Distantly related, yes. I'm Matt, the Nerd of the Rings and I'm here with the man of the west who has contributed precisely no blood at all to the people of Gondor, Alan Sisto.

[Alan Sisto]

For that they should be thankful. Folks, join us for the long awaited ride of Eorle as we reach the halfway point of our six episode sidebar through Cirion and aorl but not before.

[Matt]

The Ride of Borondir. That's right folks, no matter how you arrived, you're all welcome here in the common room at the Prancing Pony Podcast. We are reading and talking our way through Midd Earth with plenty of speculation and bad jokes along the way and.

[Alan Sisto]

Maybe even some mispronunciations. We do love our deep dives into the lore, discussing our favorite themes and a whole lot more, but we try.

[Matt]

To keep it light and fun like a couple of friends chatting at the pub. And we're glad you've joined us, and.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm sure you'll be glad you joined as well. But before we get to tonight's chapter discussion, it's time to welcome one of our patrons to the show as we visit the North Wing. Well, today we're bringing you another new installment, North Wing Bar Lim and Butterbur had a Room or two in the North Wing at the Prancing Pony Inn, made special for Hobbits. And this is our place made special for some of our listeners to give.

[Matt]

Us a chance to get to know them.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Now, rooms at the North Wing are hard to come by, so only our patrons at the Elronds Honorarium and Kirdon's contribution tiers are eligible. So if you'd like to be one of the next patrons to join us, be sure to check out patreon.com prancingponypod Please do. We've got a waiting list for the North Wing right now, but we'll get.

[Matt]

To them all as soon as we.

[Alan Sisto]

Can and we'll make more room if necessary. That's right. Well, why don't we go ahead and welcome today's guest to the North Wing, Olivia Oddie.

[C]

Hello. Hi.

[Alan Sisto]

Hello, Olivia. Thank you for joining us today. It's a pleasure to see you and you.

[C]

Thank you.

[Alan Sisto]

All right, well, go ahead and tell us a little bit about yourself. Where are you from? What do you do? And kind of more importantly, what do your loved ones think of all this Tolkien stuff you're into? Do they just reject you as a total nerd? Do they avoid you at holiday meals? Or do they love it? That sort of thing.

[C]

Right. So my name is Olivia. I am half English, half Italian. I was born in England, but I grew up in Rome, for which I was incredibly lucky. And I am now living in the UK and working in the international development sphere. I'll leave it at that. Wow.

[Alan Sisto]

Very nice.

[C]

Have been a fan of Tolkien for. Since I was probably about 6 when my mother first read me the Hobbit. And as you can sort of see as a result of that, it was in fact my family who inspired me to read this.

[Matt]

But.

[C]

But also my wider family, my uncles in English side, uncles and aunts all are Tolkien fans. My cousins are Tolkien fans. It's a fantastic.

[Matt]

You know, I love that.

[C]

It's a fantastic way to be. Altogether loving it. And I am slowly corrupting all my great nephews and nieces to the true Tolkien way.

[Alan Sisto]

Good. Good. As it should be done. All right, Olivia, a question we ask everyone who comes to the Prancing Pony. When and how did you discover Tolkien's work? And, like, what was your experience like? And also, why do you keep coming back?

[C]

Yeah, well, okay. Mum read me the Hobbit when I was about 6. And then when I was a little older, I. I read it by myself. And then I think it was probably When I was about 11 or 12, I asked for Lord of the Rings. I read it. I think it was three nights it took me.

[Matt]

Wow.

[Alan Sisto]

Wow.

[C]

I actually stayed up all night under the covers in my bed. You know, I held my covers up above me so my parents wouldn't see the light. And I read all of it. I was completely hooked. You know, I loved it. I didn't start the Silmarillion until I was about 18 or 19. And then I read quite a lot of the other works, the Unfinished Tales and the Book of lost takes, etc. And then I kind of just started rereading Lord of the Rings, which I tend to do about once a year. So I think what keeps me coming back to it is the fact that it is. It speaks to me and it speaks to my sense of adventure, but also my sense of love for other people and sort of wanting to do the right thing. And that's a very important lesson that I think Tolkien has taught so well through his books.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, I wholeheartedly agree. That's a lovely reason to keep coming back. I like that. So, Olivia, which one is your favorite book in the Legendarium? You've mentioned just about all of them. Having read all of them, which is your favorite and why. And then if you have one, what's your favorite non legendarium work of Tolkien's?

[C]

So my favorite legendarium is in fact the Fall of Gondolin.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, I like that. There's a deep dive, a deep cut. I wasn't expecting that.

[Matt]

My goodness.

[Alan Sisto]

Might be the first time we've had that is the answer. I like that, though.

[C]

Well, I sort of. Hero worship Idril, kind of.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay. Not a bad thing, right?

[C]

Yes. I love her story. I love her character. Okay. You don't. You know, she's not given a huge amount, certainly not a huge amount of dialogue, but what you see through the different versions of the story as he wrote them over time, she really shines through as an incredible woman.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[C]

Elf. And I just, you know, she's my hero.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a great.

[C]

She's on. She's. She's my name on Lotro.

[Alan Sisto]

Nothering. Yeah.

[C]

But yeah, yeah, yeah, that's great. My favorite non legendarium is actually Smith.

[Alan Sisto]

Ah. Smith of Wooten Major.

[C]

I love Smith. Yeah, I love Smith. I think it's. It's beautiful. It's. It's fantasy to me, at its absolute best. This kind of movement between the real world and the fantasy world being so seamless. It's wonderful.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Yeah. It absolutely does shine in terms of fairy. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Excellent, excellent. All right.

[Matt]

Now, obviously there's a lot of Tolkien.

[Alan Sisto]

Related events and things and activities that happen. Moots, Movie launches, Hobbit day, things. Do you have a favorite memory of any of those sort of Tolkien community related things?

[C]

Yes, I mean, I've. I've been attending regularly. I've been attending Oxenmut and actually in part helping to organize parts of it. And Oxenmut, to me is the absolute, you know, epitome of, of Tolkien meetups. And, and certainly, you know, you get also a lot of absolutely brilliant scholarship. But just the community and the, and the, you know, being with your people.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[C]

Is, is the part that I enjoy most. I did go to a Lord of the Rings convention not long after the third movie was released. There was one in London that I actually really enjoyed because the actors were there and everybody was there and I. I was in my element.

[Alan Sisto]

Being with your people is a big thing in the Tolkien community for sure.

[C]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

And I'll. I'll certainly not argue against Oxenmutes being a big highlight. I gotta get to one eventually. It feels like I belong there. You do?

[C]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, now, Olivia, it's time for a lightning round of quick questions and answers. Are you ready?

[C]

I am ready.

[Alan Sisto]

All right, I think I know the answer to the second one already, but we're going to start with the first one. Who's your favorite character in the Lord of the Rings?

[C]

Frodo.

[Alan Sisto]

Who is your favorite elf from the first Age?

[C]

Idril.

[Alan Sisto]

There we go. See, that's. Yep, I saw that one. And, well, and shoot. Now I have to come up with a different one because I was going to ask who your favorite hobbit is, but since Frodo's your favorite character, that's going to be Frodo. So let me ask a different one. Let's see. Oh, how about about. All right. If you had to live somewhere in Middle Earth, first, second or third Age, where and when would you choose?

[C]

To be honest, I'd go to Gondor.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay, Third Age Gondor. Well, that would. Yeah, I mean, it would pretty much have to be Third Age Gondor, since it barely started at the end of the second.

[C]

I have to say, it kind of reminds me of Rome.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Yeah, I think it definitely does. There are touches of Rome, touches of Byzantine, touches of ancient Egypt. There are all sorts of very interesting.

[C]

And it's a city, and I'm used to cities, you know.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Exciting. If you had to choose, would you rather be in Rivendell or Lorien Rivendell. I love it. I dare say that's the answer everybody gives. Yes, about 80% maybe, is Rivendell. I think it's the library. They just win.

[C]

I have it on my wall twice. I mean, I love.

[Alan Sisto]

Nice. Beautiful place. I have it in a bunch of Legos just scattered around my house.

[C]

I have the Lego set. It's over there.

[Alan Sisto]

So fun. Favorite author or book? Other than Tolkien?

[C]

It's Roger Zelagny. Have you ever heard of the Amber Chronicles?

[Alan Sisto]

I think they've crossed my awareness threshold. But only that, I'm afraid to say it's very epic.

[C]

Try it.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, we've got more to add to the to read list. Great answers. Thank you, Olivia. We've really enjoyed having you here in the North Wing.

[C]

Thank you. It's been brilliant. Thanks again.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, thank you so much for coming. We will see you back, I assume, at Questions after nightfall, if not sooner.

[C]

Absolutely.

[Alan Sisto]

Great. Well, we're going to go and head on back to the common room to join the rest of the listeners. Farewell.

[Matt]

Well, it's always great to chat with folks over in the North Wing, but it is time to get to our readings. Alan, you want to take the first one?

[Alan Sisto]

I will. Thank you, sir. The Ride of EORL While the Eotheod still dwelt in their former home, they were well known to Gondor as a people of good trust, from whom they received news of all that passed in that region. They were a remnant of the Northmen, who were held to be akin in ages past to the Dunedain, and in the days of the Great kings had been their allies and contributed much of their blood to the people of Gondor. It was thus of great concern to Gondor when the Eotheod removed into the far north in the days of Earnil ii, last but one of the kings of the southern realm. The new land of the Eotheod lay north of Mirkwood, between the Misty Mountains westward and the Forest river eastward. Southward it extended to the confluence of the two short rivers that they named Graylin and Langwell. Graylin flowed down from Ered Mithryn, the Grey Mountains. But Langwell came from the Misty Mountains, and this name it bore because it was the source of Anduin, which from its junction with Graylin they called Langflood. Messengers still passed between Gondor and the Eotheod after their departure, but it was some 450 of our miles between the confluence of Graylin and Langwell, where was their only fortified burg and the inflow of the Limlight into Anduin in a direct line as a bird might fly. And much more for those who journeyed on Earth and in like manner, some 800 miles to Minas Tirith.

[Matt]

Now, after we've read all about the events of 1944 of the third Age, the attack of the Wainriders, the help of the Eotheod, the death of King Ondoher and his sons, we're given a quick reminder of the connections between the Eotheod and Gondor.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. First, that they're a people of good trust. They'd given Gondor news. In fact, both of the previous conflicts with the Wainriders were preceded by information from the.

[Matt]

And again, the reminder that they're descended from the Northmen and thus are kin to the Dunedain. We. We don't have any need to go over that again here. But it's ancient in their lineage. They are connected.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. And I do like the reminder, though, that they had contributed much of their blood to the people of Gondor. And it's interesting because it feels like that's a twofold contribution. And I'm not sure whether Tolkien means one or the other or both. I mean, at first I'm thinking they'd contributed their blood in terms of fighting alongside Gondor. I think about Eldacar and how many of the Northmen fought with him as he retook the throne from Castamir the Usurper. But then I'm thinking about how much they'd contributed their blood in terms of becoming a part of the ancestry of the kings and the Dunedain of Gondor. What do you think?

[Matt]

Interesting. Yeah. I kind of always associated this with contributing blood because they had fought alongside Gondor.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, exactly. Sacrifice. Yeah.

[Matt]

Yeah. That was my initial. But we do see through, you know, throughout history and even after this, especially we see, you know, the intermingling. I mean. Right. Theoden is born and grows up in Gondor.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt]

Which is pretty cool. I. I think I've always enjoyed.

[Alan Sisto]

His mother is Gondorian. Right? I mean.

[Matt]

Yeah, Gondorian.

[Alan Sisto]

His father comes back from Gondor speaking. Sindarin in Rowan. Right.

[Matt]

Yeah. I mean, Eomer will. Will marry a princess of Dol Amroth, like his daughter. Yeah, yeah. There's a lot of. A lot of great connection between these. These two people. So that's interesting that it. That it could very well work for both. Yeah. Personally, I've. I've always kind of Looked at it as spilled blood, you know, but. Yeah. What about you? What do you.

[Alan Sisto]

That's the thing. I think I probably would have thought spilled blood just because of all the. All the times that the Eotheod, the Northmen, and eventually the Rohirrim fought alongside Gondor. But then I think when we went through the Kin Strife recently and I realized, hey, every king after Eldacar had Northman blood in him, that made me think, okay, I think Tolkien says this really with both meanings in mind as a possibility. Yeah, it's really interesting. Yeah. They certainly have contributed a lot of blood in both senses. When you realize, again, after Eldacar, and that's a long time in the past now.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

The Kin Strife is quite a bit in the past. It's over 400 years, 500 years now in the past. Yeah.

[Matt]

Yeah. Gosh. I mean, think of it in our present day terms. That's way older than the United States is.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yeah.

[Matt]

How much has happened? Like, that's as ancient history to us, you know, as to them as. As the founding of our country and more.

[Alan Sisto]

I know. I mean, I just confirmed the Kinstrife began in third age 1432. So. Yeah, more than 500 years before. Yeah. Wow. And ever since then, there's been blood of the Northmen in the royal line.

[Matt]

Yeah, There you go. So as close as the Aotheod have been with Gondor, it seems a matter of great concern when they decide to move up north, wouldn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, yeah. These are your good friends, these are your allies, and like, yeah, we're going to go up that way.

[Matt]

We're going to go. We're going to move on the other side of town. Yeah. The text here says only that this move took place in the days of Arnil ii. And we just talked about him last week as the victorious leader at the battle of the camp and the man chosen to become King of Gondor over the claim of Arvedui, the last king of Arthedain. But the footnote points us to a couple details back in the Lord of the Rings.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. The first is something that we talked about a few episodes back, and it's the cause of their migration to the north, overcrowding in the Vales of Anduin. Remember that once they learned about the defeat of the Witch king back in third age 1975, that's when they moved up north. But the second thing that we learned from that is that we get a specific year for this move from the Tale of years in Appendix B. And that move took place in 1977, so 33 years after the death of King Ondohere and all of that.

[Matt]

And the next paragraph is something we covered four episodes ago in episode 352. It's just about the new lands that they moved to up north.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[Matt]

So we don't need to repeat all that again here as well.

[Alan Sisto]

Go back just a couple of episodes ago and you'll hear it all.

[Matt]

Though we might remind you that the footnote mentioning that the Graylin and Langwell are unnamed on the Lord of the Rings map, and that's because the maps then published with Lord of the Rings were the original map drawn by Christopher in 1953, and he redid that map completely in 1980 for Unfinished Tales.

[Alan Sisto]

And.

[Matt]

And that updated map would then accompany future editions of the Lord of the Rings.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. So if you're looking at that footnote and going, what do you mean these rivers are unnamed? I'm looking at them right here. That's because you're looking at the updated map that he drew for Unfinished Tales. So anyway, like we said, they went from basically being close by neighbors to moving across the continent. I mean, they're now 800 miles to the north of Minas Tirith. And we'll see today how that distance comes into play. And of course, that 800 miles is in a direct line as a bird might fly. It's a lot longer on horse or on foot.

[Matt]

Yeah, it's like if you move further away from family, it's like you're sending it. You might be sending a message almost. Or they might take it that way.

[Alan Sisto]

I guess that's exactly right.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah. Now, as we'll see later this episode, it's more than a two week journey on horseback, even for a messenger, focused on speed.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

But more on that when we get there.

[Alan Sisto]

Much more. Because it actually, it. That's a really, really fast, very important. Yeah, yeah. Now, right after we ended the reading, there's a one sentence paragraph that I confess I'm a bit confused about. I'm not sure what the point of it is, but it's explaining that the chronicle starts at the Battle of the Field of Celebrant. But if there are events that took place before that quote, they may be made out to have been of this sort. Now that kind of threw me for a loop as I'm reading that. Is this saying that there were other events like the Rite of a Oral Comedy? Clearly not, because that's pretty major historical event. So what does that mean by. Events were of this sort, and why are they in other sources but not this chronicle? I don't know. It's one of those things that lends a little bit of, like, authenticity to the historical feeling of the text. But I want to know what they're talking about. That if there are events that took place before this, they may have been of this sort. Like what?

[Matt]

Yeah. Do we take that to mean. My assumption is kind of of this sort in that, you know, they provided aid of some.

[Alan Sisto]

Right. Some sort of military alliance, you know, fighting alongside each other. Belligerence.

[Matt]

Yeah, maybe. Clearly not as, you know, pivotal as.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[Matt]

The field of celebrant.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. I mean, because that's pretty much existential for Gondor.

[Matt]

Yeah. Yeah, that's existential. And it. What it leads to, it's just a.

[Alan Sisto]

Very, you know, change of the world. Right.

[Matt]

Yeah. A change of, you know, that's where you move back closer to family. Exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

It's like, okay, I'm in California, so I'm thinking if I've got family, I'm in LA and they're in San Diego. And, okay, it's a bit of a drive, but no big deal. We see each other now they've moved to Seattle, but then when they move back, they move down my street.

[Matt]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

It's quite the roller coaster.

[Alan Sisto]

It is. It is.

[Matt]

Of moving. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I think you're probably right about that. Events may have been of this sort means that there would have been some sort of, you know, battles and fighting where they fight together and work together to defeat a common enemy. Yeah. I don't know.

[Matt]

We know there's no shortage of animosity with the Easterlings, especially coming over and causing a ruckus in Rhovanion.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, Ruckus and Rhovanion. There we go. That's Lord of the Rings cards.

[Matt]

There we go. Ruckus and Rovanion.

[Alan Sisto]

It's like Fast and Furious, but it's the Ruckus and Rhovanion.

[Matt]

That's. There we go. All right. Send that. Send that on to Peter Jackson.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm all for it, man.

[Matt]

Ruckus and Rovania. That sounds like a boxing match title.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, it does, doesn't it?

[Matt]

The Ruckus and Rovanion. Yeah, that's like, I don't know, like.

[Alan Sisto]

The Thriller in Manila.

[Matt]

Yeah, like a oral and in, like an Easterling Lord or something like, ladies.

[Alan Sisto]

And gentlemen, let's get ready to rumble.

[Matt]

Your best fighter against my best fighter. The Ruckus and Romanian. Oh, my God.

[Alan Sisto]

15 rounds, three minutes each. Three judges. One from Rovanyan, one from the Aotheod, and one from. Well, that's the problem. The Shire. You got some Hobbit. Well, I don't know about that. That was a. That looked like a low blow to me. Can you imagine fighting a Hobbit, though?

[Matt]

Like, could they even reach above the belt?

[Alan Sisto]

That's the thing. Everything would be a low blow. It'd be like. Yeah, they would be at a disadvantage in the boxing, but they would be great at baseball. Their strike zone would be tiny.

[Matt]

Oh, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. We're really getting far afield. We should probably come back to talking about the show.

[Matt]

You brought up baseball and it's like, oh, gosh.

[Alan Sisto]

I know. I realized the danger. I'm like, oh, no danger, Will Robinson. I just brought up baseball with.

[Matt]

With me. Yeah. All right.

[Alan Sisto]

No, next you're going to be trying to figure out how to sign Hobbits to the Cubs.

[Matt]

Yeah, might as well. Because, I mean. Oh, gosh, don't get me. Definitely don't get me started on the Cubs. Okay, I won't.

[Alan Sisto]

All right.

[Matt]

I'm going to reel back in here. So finally we're given a bit more of a geography lesson about the weakness of what is essentially the northeastern boundary of Gondor. We've got the massive plains between Mirkwood to the north and Mordor to the south, from the Brownlands to the west to the Sea of Rune in the east.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

And this allowed for the Easterlings, or Wainwriters, to invade Gondor with ease right up until the Great river itself.

[Alan Sisto]

And now we skip forward in time a lot as the text mentions the Watchful Peace and how the forts along the river, especially those near the Undeeps, which we talked about recently, kind of giving an explanation of what the Undeeps are. Those forts along the river were unmanned. That Watchful peace began in third age 2063. So we're talking now about, you know, a little more than 100 years after the events of third age 1944. So, you know, after the death of On Deher and that battle that we talked about last week was about 100 years later. That's when Sauron, still just the necromancer at the time, left Dol Guldur in a bit of a hurry and didn't end until he returned in third age 2460. 400 years after that.

[Matt]

Yeah. So we've gone from 1977, when the Aotheod moved north, to at least 2460 and the end of the watchful peace some 500 years. Though it's a bit after that actually, as we'll see.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Now I also want to point out that if you're going to let forts along the Anduin go unmanned, the last ones that should go would be the ones on the west shores of the Undeep. This is precisely where the attacks would come. It's the only place allowing for an easy crossing over the Anduin.

[Matt]

Yeah. And with the watchful peace over, enemies renew their attacks on Gondor. Orcs from Mordor. Since Gondor had long lost the watch on Mordor, it had begun to fail after the great plague in 1636. But we know that at least the Morannon was still under Gondor's control in 1944 when Ondoher was killed.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. I was a little surprised by that when we were talking about that battle last episode. You know, like really, the Morannon, the Towers of the Teeth, were still in Gondorian control. But yeah, here we are, more than 500 years after that. Clearly, Mordor had long been unguarded. But not just Mordor Orcs. We get the other long time foes of Gondor, the Corsairs of Umbar. They're being attacked on multiple fronts.

[Matt]

And this is why Gondor lacked the manpower to keep those forts on the Anduin occupied. Especially that far north.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. But we don't lack the manpower to keep these ad spots occupied. So we'll be right back. It's the new year, so it's time to start turning your resolutions into reality. I know. For me that means getting back to the gym after a rough year, fitness wise and, well, without getting too blunt. That also means trying to smell better. And there's a resolution we could all use. I've been using Mando. It's a whole body deodorant. I've been using it for a few weeks now. And I've really been happy with. Well, with smelling better. Mando is a whole body deodorant. So you don't just use it on your armpits. Any place on your body that could use a bit of odor control. You can use Mando there. Yes, there too. It's proven to block and control odors all day, even in this tiny podcast booth. And it's available in solid stick spray or even cream. Now, personally, I like the pro sport scent, but bourbon leather is pretty nice too. Now, as a special offer for our listeners, new customers get $5 off a starter pack with our exclusive code now that equates to over 40% off your starter pack. Use code [e-mail] S H O P M A N D O.COM Please support our show and tell them we sent you Smell fresher, stay drier and boost your confidence with Mando. It's the new year and it's time to start tackling those things you've been putting off for too long. You've been kicking around a business idea for a while now and you're wondering how you're going to make 2025 different. Look, it's time to do this and Shopify is how you're going to get it done. Shopify makes it easy to create your own brand, open up your business and get that all important first sale. You can get your store up without any coding skills. Man, I couldn't code my way out of a paper sack. You just drag and drop with thousands of customizable templates. Shopify handles all the details that would bog you down. Things like shipping, taxes, payments, all from one easy to use dashboard so that you can focus on the important stuff growing your business. Speaking of which, Shopify has really powerful social media tools to connect all of your channels and and create posts so that you can sell where people scroll. Don't kick yourself when you hear this again in a year because you spent 2025 still thinking about it with Shopify. Your first sale is closer than you think. Established in 2025 has a nice ring to it, doesn't it? Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com pony all lowercase go to shopify.com pony to start selling with Shopify today. Shopify.com pony now. Soon we're gonna go ahead and get back to the story and finally meet Kyrian. But before we do, we want to remind you there's a lot more talk going on at the Prancing Bony podcast than just us. And that's a good thing.

[Matt]

The PPP has an amazing listener community. They're always coming up with great questions and discussions across all our social media spaces. Check out our common room on Facebook, our dedicated subreddit Twitter and more on Facebook.

[Alan Sisto]

Just look for the Prancing Pony podcast. Follow the page to get the news, but you're going to want to join the group to get involved in some really great discussions.

[Matt]

Or if you prefer Reddit, find us there@r prancingponypod. On Twitter and Instagram, we're simply rancingponypod.

[Alan Sisto]

And if you want daily Tolkien content? Come on. I mean, everybody wants daily Tolkien content. Check out today's Tolkien times on YouTube and all your favorite podcast apps. It's my short format daily Show. I've got everything from Mailbag Monday to Word Nerd Wednesday. Be sure to check it [e-mail] times and follow ulkingtimes on all your social media. Well, you know what I think, Matt? It is finally time to meet Kyrion. So why don't you go ahead and pick up the next reading?

[Matt]

All right? Sounds good. It was thus not until the winter of the year 2509 was past that Cirion became aware that a great movement against Gondor was being prepared. Hosts of men were mustering all along the southern eaves of Mirkwood. They were only rudely armed, and had no great number of horses for riding, using horses mainly for draft, since they had many large wains, as had the Wainriders, to whom they were no doubt a kin that had assailed Gondor in the last days of the kings. But what they lacked in gear of war they made up in numbers, so far as could be guessed. In this peril, Cirion's thought turned at last in desperation to the Eotheod, and he determined to send messengers to them. But they would have to go through Calenardhon and over the Undeeps, and then through lands already watched and patrolled by the Balchoth before they could reach the vales of Anduin. This would mean a ride of some 450 miles to the undeeps, and more than 500 thence to the Eotheod, and from the Undeeps they would be forced to go warily and mostly by night, until they had passed the shadow of Dol Guldur, Cirion had little hope that any of them would get through. He called for volunteers, and choosing six riders of great courage and endurance, he sent them out in pairs, with a day's interval between them. Each bore a message learned by heart, and also a small stone incised with the seal of the Stewards, that he should deliver to the Lord of the Eotheod in person if he succeeded in reaching that land. The message was addressed to Eorl, son of Leod, for Cirion knew that he had succeeded his father some years before, when he was but a youth of 16, and though now no more than 5 and 20, was praised in all such tidings as reached Gondor as a man of great courage and wise beyond his years. Yet Cirion had but faint hope that Even if the message were received, it would be answered. He had no claim on the Eotheod beyond their ancient friendship with Gondor to bring them from so far away with any strength that would avail the tidings that the Balchoth were destroying the last of their kin in the south if they did not know, it already might give weight to his appeal. If the Eotheod themselves were not threatened by any attack, Cirion said no more and ordered what strength he had to meet the storm. He gathered as great a force as he could and taking command of it himself, made ready as swiftly as might be to lead it north to Calenardhon Hallas, his son he left in command at Minas Tirith.

[Alan Sisto]

Excellent. Thank you, Matt. Now, we did skip a couple of paragraphs in the reading, but we want to at least go over them. The first one sets the stage for us. Cirion is now the Steward of Gondor. He took the position in third age 2489. As a sidebar, we learn in the Heirs of Elendil, which is included in the Peoples of Middle Earth, that he was born in 2449. So he was 40 when he became the steward of Gondor.

[Matt]

And as we read back in episode 350, by the time he became steward, the reach of Gondor had grown short and he could do little more than defend his borders. Now recall that his father was the steward, Boromir. He was such a great captain that even the Witch King was afraid of him. Which is pretty awesome.

[Alan Sisto]

That is awesome. I love that little tidbit. The Witch King feared him.

[C]

Wow.

[Matt]

But he wasn't able to stop the destruction of Osgiliath.

[Alan Sisto]

No. Now, under Cirion's rule, we read that the Corsairs also harried his coasts. So he's got a lot going on. He's got a tough job right now. He's already aware of this menace from the north and is now working on whatever solutions he could find.

[Matt]

He manned those old forts to keep an eye on the shallow crossing points of the Undeeps, as well as trying to gain intel by sending people to scout out the land south of Mirkwood.

[Alan Sisto]

Smart guy. I mean, doing that is what enabled him to become aware of this big threat coming in from beyond the Sea of Ruhn from the east. And this threat was significant. They were killing or driving off whatever was left of the Northmen.

[Matt]

Yeah. And here this is talking about those that had stayed behind in the region to the east of Mirkwood, where the Northmen had originally come from, not the Eotheod, as we pointed out, who moved up near the sources of anduin more than 500 years before this.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. But I want to talk about this a bit, Matt. How does this square with what we read just a couple of episodes back, about how after that slave revolt, when the then leader Marquini had to go back to his home by the Anduin, and we read that the Northmen of his race never again returned to their former homes? So that was in 1899. This is some 600 years later. But Northmen did remain. So are we. I don't know. What do you make of that? It seems like, I mean, maybe it's just a historical. You know, this is a problem with these historical chronicles. They can't quite be accurate.

[Matt]

Yeah. Maybe it's conflicting accounts as the historians document things.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

I don't know. Maybe some of the. Some of the Northmen moved up by the Aotheod and they didn't. Didn't like their neighbors. Like, you know what?

[Alan Sisto]

Maybe let's go back.

[Matt]

Maybe those Easterlings are scared off and we could go back.

[Alan Sisto]

Maybe we can go back to our old homes. Or maybe it's ones that didn't go with Marhwini. Right. You know, we know that he only took some. Right, right. And if the chronicler is following the story of the Eotheod. Right. Those who would eventually become the Rohirrim, that would be the primary emphasis. And maybe they wouldn't necessarily have known about those that stayed behind. I'm trying to remember. There was a split. Some of them went north towards Dale because it turns out the people of Dale were also akin. And then some went and became the Eotheod. And I'm trying to remember where the third group went. Yeah, they became the Eotheod, but at that point they lived in the Vales of Anduin, not all the way up in the North. I don't know. It's just one of those things that it feels like a history that is by definition not going to be 100%, not so much accurate, but like complete, you know, like we're going to have missing pieces. Yeah, yeah.

[Matt]

I think there's some wiggle room there. Obviously, maybe they didn't return to their former homes, they just built new ones at the same spot.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay. Or maybe they didn't return to their former homes because they never left their former homes. Like, I don't know.

[Matt]

There you go.

[Alan Sisto]

I don't know.

[Matt]

See, we're. We're just like, we're finding all kinds of little.

[Alan Sisto]

Some way to reconcile little slivers. Yeah.

[Matt]

The door opens a crack and we're busting it open.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yeah, absolutely. I'm doing the whole Kool Aid man routine right there. Yeah.

[Matt]

Right now still, even though these are friendly northmen, Kyrion couldn't send any help because he simply didn't have it.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. Yeah.

[Matt]

Yeah. In fact, just being a spy or scout trying to gather information for him is pretty dangerous. Too many of them never returned, it says.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that's not a job I'm applying for. So picking up where we did start reading in 2509. So this is after he's held the stewardship for 20 years. So he's about 60 at this point. Cirion learns that these foes are preparing an attack.

[Matt]

Yeah. Huge forces are building up along the southern edges of the forest, and they're not well equipped in terms of weaponry, and they don't have a significant cavalry force.

[Alan Sisto]

No, I like that line, though. They're rudely armed. Hey, I'm walking here. You got weapons that just, like, talk back. We made such a terrible joke about that with the. With the rude harp that Finrod used when he first encountered the men. He picks up a rude harp and starts, you know, leave me alone. Get your filthy hands off me, you elf. You know, folks, I apologize. I really, actually, genuinely do. We've gotten some emails from people about how we don't take this serious enough because we make jokes.

[Matt]

Oh, really?

[Alan Sisto]

Okay. Just one okay. From somebody who's undoubtedly not listening anymore.

[Matt]

Was it Sean?

[Alan Sisto]

No, it was not Sean.

[Matt]

It's like, hey, this is really falling off.

[Alan Sisto]

Jumping the shark man. All right, so like you said, the army there gathering under the eaves of Mirkwood, they're not, you know, they are rudely hard. They don't have a lot of horses. That's really unlike the Wain Riders from last episode and six centuries before, who, you'll recall, wiped out onto Hare and most of his army, utilizing a force that led with cavalry and chariots. Now, it's not to say that these people don't have horses, but like we read, they're draft animals. They're used to pull the large wagons.

[Matt]

Yeah. And the chronicler here suggests that they were akin with those Wain Riders. And that makes sense, not just because of the wagons, but the region from which they're coming.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Now, even though they don't have cavalry to speak of and they aren't equipped with great weaponry, well, quantity has a quality all its Own. This is a significant force.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah. As he recognizes the existential threat to Gondor that this pending attack represents, Cirion thinks in desperation of his allies far, far to the north.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, exactly. Would have been a lot easier if you were just up the road, right?

[Matt]

Yeah. But yeah, it's not going to be easy because they're 800 miles as the crow flies, more than 950 miles as the horseman rides.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a long way.

[Matt]

It's a very, very long way. Incidentally, this is pretty close distance wise to the distance that Aragorn has to travel with Gollum when he captures him and takes him to Burkwood. And that's on foot, like just, just further cementing Aragorn's legendary status that he not only traveled that distance on foot but with Gollum in tow. But, but one thing that Aragorn did not have is enemies attacking him everywhere. Because we see here, you know, this messenger is going to have to travel through lands currently under the control or the watch of these Balcoll.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah, that's pretty bad stuff right there. I mean this is a hostile territory. It's a long way. I mean I'm just trying to get an idea. I mean if you're in London, 900 miles is more than it takes to get to Rome or Budapest. I mean it's a long, long way. And if you're in la, it's like riding a horse to Portland. If you're in New York, it's like riding a horse to Memphis, Tennessee. I mean it's a long, long way.

[Matt]

Yeah. So apparently according to Google Maps, you can walk from Portland to Los Angeles in 354 hours.

[Alan Sisto]

So that's 304 hours.

[Matt]

That's a Patreon exclusive.

[Alan Sisto]

So even if you walk 10 hours a day, you're talking about more than a month of foot journey.

[Matt]

Yeah, I think you should do that journey for your Patreon supporters and document it.

[Alan Sisto]

Why in the world would I walk to Portland from here? I don't know. No, I'm not going to. No, not going to happen. Because how am I going to produce the show from the road? Because it's going to take me over a month to get there and then a month to get back and then I'm going to be dead because I will have tried to walk a thousand miles. Not going to happen. All right, let's go ahead and take a look at the word Balcoff. Before we go any further. Note that we are not calling these people wain riders or Even going back further, Easterlings. The chronicle uses the term balcoth. Well, the footnote explains that it is a mixed word of popular speech and it's what Gondor called them. The first element is a westron element. This is what they mean by mixed. Right. There's a westron element and a Sindarin element. The westron element, balk, is glossed as horrible. While the second element, by the way, I love that. Horrible. Just horrible. The second element is the familiar hoth. Right. We've talked about that word a few times before. It means hoarding is in Glamhoth, which is din horde for the Orcs. Tol in Gaurhoth, isle of werewolves. And recently also Lossoth, the snowmen for the people living in Forochil. So that's Balchoth. Anyway. Go ahead, Matt.

[Matt]

Yeah. So needless to say, this ride would be long. 450 miles from Minas Tirith to the Undeeps and more than 500 miles further to the Eotheod. With a great deal of that ride under threat. Not just from the Balcoth, who would pose a threat to. Through the Brown Lands, but also from Dol Guldur.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah. That's.

[Matt]

We know who. Who hangs out in Dol Guldur. And it's not. Not someone you want to be traveling through their front yard.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt]

It's a bad neighborhood. So a good portion of this ride would have to be done with stealth, primarily at night to avoid being seen.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. And given those conditions, Kyrion knows the odds are against him. As Gimli might say, certainty of death, small chance of success. What are we waiting for? Of course, it would take him twice as long. Anyway, he asks for volunteers. Carry on. That is not Gimli, and I mean volunteers who absolutely know they are unlikely to survive this journey.

[Matt]

Yeah, and we see six are chosen, each said to be a rider of great courage and endurance. You'd have to be courage just from volunteering. That's a check. And they're sent out in three pairs, with one day between each pair. Makes sense. The writers have a memorized message, so there's nothing in writing in case they're caught. And a token that they're sent with by the Steward of Gondor.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Now, the footnote tells us a bit more about that little token. The engraving on the stone is the letters R and then nd. It's a single letter in the script. So it's because that's a sound. The ND sound. And then another R. And that stands for Arandur, a word meaning king's servant, which we talked about way back when we talked about the founding of the stewardship. But we will do a touch more word nerdery on this later when it comes up again in this story, not this episode, it's not going to be the only time we see an engraving on a stone with three letters.

[Matt]

The message that these six writers are hoping to deliver is to the Lord of the EOTHEOD. EORL.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right.

[Matt]

And we read about EORL, of course, in episode 352. So we don't need to reintroduce you to him here.

[Alan Sisto]

No.

[Matt]

But we do learn that Cirion heard about his becoming Lord of the Eotheod at the age of 16, nine years before this time. So news travels, even if it's kind of slowly.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. And even though he is still quite young for a lord of a people. I mean, he's only 25. Kyrion has heard only good things. He's courageous. He's more mature than one might expect, especially for a guy so young. So he's clearly wiser than us.

[Matt]

Yeah, clearly. Not only does he not expect word to reach Aorl, but even if it does, he has no expectation that Eorl will do anything about it.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, wow.

[Matt]

You know.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, no. Anyway, yeah.

[Matt]

Because at this point, there's no formal alliance. There's just kind of a friendship between their peoples that most likely has become a bit of a historical relic since they're so far apart now Geographically.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. And there's no point in Eorles sending a diplomat or a representative. He's going to have to send a whole army if this is going to do any good.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, Kyrion had hoped that maybe the fact that these Balcoth were wiping out what few Northmen remained in the region would carry a bit of weight with Aorl. But really, who knows? I mean, yeah, they're your kin, but you haven't seen them in hundreds of years. You know, Thanksgivings are really weird. Nobody sends Christmas cards. Yeah. I mean, maybe, but who knows?

[Matt]

And that only works if the Aotheon themselves weren't under any threat at home.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. Yeah.

[Matt]

Which Kyrion isn't in a position to know about right now.

[Alan Sisto]

No, I mean, news travels slowly. How would he know their current situation if they're.

[Matt]

For all he knows, they could be wiped out. Even that's true.

[Alan Sisto]

Eora may not even be anymore. You know, they might be fighting with goblins or orcs. Up in that area, there might be another conflict with the dwarves who, remember, killed from.

[Matt]

Right, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Because of that. After he took down Ska the worm. I mean, who knows what's going on? He's rolling the dice with the lives of the six riders. But yeah. So interestingly though, the footnote to this says that while he didn't say it out loud, Kyrion was also aware of the fact that the Eotheod were getting a bit crowded in their new lands. The region wasn't particularly fertile. It's near the source of the river, not downstream where you might expect richer farmland. And with the people increasing in number, there were some practical reasons why they might want to leave. So Kyrion was already thinking kind of geopolitically, if you will.

[Matt]

Yeah. So he's not saying the quiet part out loud, but you want new lands, come and get them. Come on over.

[Alan Sisto]

And now I'm thinking of Arwen from the, the Jackson Lord of the Rings films. You want new lands, come and claim them. Right, exactly.

[Matt]

Yeah. But we see that Kyrion does do his best to prepare for the onslaught here.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. I mean, he gets as big an army together as he can and, and he leads it himself, which we read about before was sort of the way that the kings of Gondor did it. He's the steward, so he maybe doesn't have to, but he does. And he's not a young man like we said. He's 60 years old at this point. Keep in mind that the stewards, while of Numenorean descent, don't have the kind of longevity that those earlier kings or even Aragorn had. Cirion dies at the age of 118. So I guess spoilers. He. He survives this battle, but yeah, I mean, they don't live excessively long lives like the early Gondorian kings.

[Matt]

And we also see that he leaves his son Hallas in charge. Yeah. No relation to the Chicago Bears owner, by the way.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yes, good, good catch. I appreciate that clarification. And how do you know he's not related?

[Matt]

Oh, that's a good point. Maybe he is.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, because of the one L. Maybe could be descended.

[Matt]

I think it is spelled differently.

[Alan Sisto]

The stewards.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah, they lost it when they immigrated into the US they took out one of the L's.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right, at Ellis Island. They wrote it down.

[Matt]

Yeah, at Ellis Island. But yeah, let's. Let's just hope for hallas sake here that he doesn't ride off in disguise like Ondohere's son did.

[Alan Sisto]

Like Faramir. Sorry, Dad. I wanted to come to the party, but I died. Yeah.

[Matt]

Yeah, that's what we call an unforced error, folks.

[Alan Sisto]

That really is. Yeah.

[Matt]

Yeah. But, yeah, let's. Let's find out what happens next, shall we?

[Alan Sisto]

All right. The first pair of messengers left on the 10th day of Sulaim. And in the event, it was one of these alone. Of all the six who got through to the Eotheod, he was Borondir, a great rider of a family that claimed descent from a captain of the Northmen in the service of the kings of old. Of the others, no tidings were ever heard save of Borondir's companion. He was slain by arrows in ambush as they passed near Dol Guldur, from which Borondir escaped by fortune and the speed of his horse. He was pursued as far north as the Gladden fields and often waylaid by men that came out of the forest and forced him to ride far out of the direct way. He came at last to the Eotheod after 15 days for the last two without food, and he was so spent that he could scarce speak his message to Eorl. It was then the 25th day of Suleime. Eorl took counsel with himself in silence, but not for long. Soon he rose and he said, I will come if the Mundberg falls. Whither shall we flee from the darkness? Then he took Borondir's hand in token of his promise. Eorl at once summoned his council of elders and began to prepare for the great riding. But this took many days, for the host had to be gathered and mustered and thought taken for the ordering of the people in the defense of the land. At that time the Eotheod were at peace and had no fear of war, though it might prove otherwise when it became known that their lord had ridden away to battle far off in the south. Nonetheless, Eorl saw well that nothing less than his full strength would serve, and he must risk all or draw back and break his promise. At last the whole host was assembled and only a few hundreds were left behind to support the men unfitted for such a desperate venture by youth or age. It was then the sixth day of the month of Verese. On that day, in silence, the great Eohera set out, leaving fear behind and taking with them small hope, for they knew not what lay before them, either on the road or at its end. It is said that Eorl led forth some 7,000 fully armed riders and some Hundreds of horsed archers at his right hand rode Borondir to serve as guide so far as he might, since he had lately passed through the lands. But this great host was not threatened or assailed during its long journey down the vales of Anduin. Such folk of good or evil kind as saw it approach fled out of its path for fear of its might and splendor.

[Matt]

Now we get to start this section with another reference to the Gondorian calendar known as the King's Reckoning.

[Alan Sisto]

Your favorite, Matt, your absolute favorite. You. You want to come back and do the calendar episode with me and James?

[Matt]

Oh, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm actually looking forward to it, but I understand. Not your strength. I get it.

[Matt]

I might be sick that day.

[Alan Sisto]

You might see. When is it? Yeah, I don't know. In March or April or May. Yeah, I think I'm sick. All three months. Yeah.

[Matt]

Now, we looked at this last week, as you might recall, as Arno received news of the enemy's approach on the ninth day of Kermi that year.

[Alan Sisto]

Right. Now, obviously, I am going to be doing a much longer look at the calendars towards the end of this season with James Tauber, and I'm looking forward to that, unlike you, Matt, but here.

[Matt]

I might listen to it, though.

[Alan Sisto]

I hope you do.

[Matt]

As long as I don't have to, like, make sense of it, I'll let someone else.

[Alan Sisto]

As long as you don't have to try to pronounce the words is what you're saying.

[Matt]

Exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

I just want to make sure I get that right. All right. Yeah. So, folks, I'll just tell you here that Sulaim is the third month of the year in the king's reckoning. It's 30 days long. It means windy or wind month. And it's roughly the same as our modern February 21st to March 22nd. So the 10th day of Sulaim is about March 3rd.

[Matt]

And returning to the riders, here we see that out of all six riders, only one makes it to the Eotheod, a man by the name of Borondir.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

And how about some quick word nerdery on his name, Alan?

[Alan Sisto]

Sure. Well, Boron is in the Etymologies as steadfast, trusty man, faithful vassal. Interestingly, in the Etymologies, it's listed as being old Noldorin, but what was Noldorin at that time was eventually changed to Sindarin. So, yeah, it's Sindarin. It's also the element in Boromir's name, of course, though his name, if you remember from last week's Philology Fair is of mixed origin because it includes the quenya element mire, meaning jewelry. Now, the second element in Borondir's name is dir. It's an element you've seen a lot. It means man, as in a male person, not the race. You see it in names like Mithrandir, Haldir, Lindir, and so on. So Borondir is steadfast man, as he proves.

[Matt]

And he is allegedly descended from a Northman captain who once served one of the former kings of Gondor.

[Alan Sisto]

There we go with that contribution of blood. You know, we talked about that.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah, there we go. And I just love that, that little connection. But I will say don't look at the footnote here because it spoils the end of Borondir's story. But it does give us a couple other things to look at first, so we'll dive into that element. One is that he also has an epithet. He's known as Borondir Udaraf, which means Borondir the stirrup less.

[Alan Sisto]

And that could have been an easier word to say, huh?

[Matt]

It could have, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, really? Thanks for a really hard one there. Now, the other thing that we learn about Borondir here from the footnote, and again, don't look at the footnote because it tells you the end of his story is that his courageous and valiant deeds are remembered in a song, Rochon Methestel, which means Rider of the Last Hope. And I just want to name that first word rakon instead of rachan, because rock on me, festal. Writer of the Last Hope.

[Matt]

Writer of the Last Hope is a pretty dope title for isn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

I love that. I want that song. There are all these songs that are named, but then we don't get the actual song.

[Matt]

And then he didn't actually write them. Yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And I want to know this one. The writer of the Last Hope. What a cool song it would be to hear about Borondir's journey in a multi stanza song.

[Matt]

Oh, well, there we go. If. If we ever get the ride of EORL in an adaptation, the end credits song has to be the Rider of the Last Hope.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, it really does. It really does. Oh, please send a note.

[Matt]

We're giving Peter Jackson all kinds of notes. Send this down to Peter as well.

[Alan Sisto]

Yep, yep, that's right, Jordan. Well, you were recently talking with Philippa Boyens. You've got it in, so.

[Matt]

Oh, so I. So it's on me. Okay. Got it.

[Alan Sisto]

I don't have their contact info.

[Matt]

I just assume Jordan could do anything that we tell him. Him, too, as. As he's editing this. Thanks, Jordan. Send that. Send that on to pj.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, please do. All right, thanks.

[Matt]

Now, while we don't learn what happened to the other two pairs of riders.

[Alan Sisto]

Hint, they probably died.

[Matt]

Yeah, that's a pretty well educated guess there. Yeah, we are. At least given the news of what happened to his writing mate, who remains unnamed here. He was killed in an ambush near Dol Guldur.

[Alan Sisto]

Borondir basically doing the whole, I don't have to be faster than the bear, I just have to be faster than you.

[Matt]

I like to think that wasn't his approach.

[Alan Sisto]

I like to think that wasn't his approach either. So as for Borondir's ride. Wow, right? I mean, he escapes this ambush that killed his riding partner, but he's then chased all the way from the shadow of Dol Guldur up to the Gladden Fields. Now, that is a distance of about 125 miles, based on Karen Wynn Fonstad's Atlas of Middle Earth. Chased the whole time. That's wild. Talk about stress.

[Matt]

Yeah, that's a long time to have the adrenaline pumping, by the way.

[Alan Sisto]

That is a very long time. A very, very long time. We'll see later that he averages something like 63 miles a day. So basically he's being chased for two days. So even after that, he has to ride way out of the way in order to avoid even more attacks from men coming out of Mirkwood.

[Matt]

Yeah. And he covers a total distance, as we said, 950 miles after 15 days, arriving on the 25th day of Sulum. So about March 18th.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

And he's completely out of food. He hasn't eaten in two days at this point. And one also has to wonder, what about his horse?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I'm. That's something that came to my mind. I. You know, Tolkien does a really, really fantastic job of making these journeys real.

[Matt]

Believable.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, believable, but like, almost incredible. Right. And so because of this, I reached out to Debbie B. In Texas. She's sort of my equine expert. Right. She's a longtime horse owner, friend of the show, and she's a very reliable source for information on how horses work. Right. So I talked to her. 950 miles in 15 days. That's a bit more than 63 miles per day on horseback. I asked her if this was possible. You know, Tolkien does sort of extreme travel stuff. Right. The three hunters. Shadowfax covering 300 miles in three days. Of course, he was a Mira, so that's a little different. So what did she come back with?

[Matt]

Yeah, she acknowledged that such a feat is probably possible, particularly if the horse is fit and regularly travels, which I think we can safely assume that here probably they're not going to send them on bum horses. Right.

[Alan Sisto]

This isn't going to be Bill the Pony. This is going to be, you know, a messenger horse.

[Matt]

Yeah. This is. This is a specimen. But this is a massive distance to cover over 15 days in a row. She says that Arabians and some other breeds can do about 50 miles a day, but it's not usually prolonged over two weeks.

[Alan Sisto]

And that's the thing. I mean, I was looking into a very, very niche thing, endurance horse racing.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And Hidalgo with very go. There are events of this kind of daily mileage, the 63 or even more, but again, they're not stretched out for more than two weeks long. That's the thing. Now, Debbie explained a horse can do 30 miles at a walk in about eight hours with no stops. Okay. With a very fit horse alternating walking, trotting and some cantering, the distance could easily be longer. So she tells me that if Boron Deer was riding a few hours alternating gates, then stopping a few to rest the horse and let him eat, that's where we come back to the whole running out of food.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Then going on even through the night. I'd say it's possible, but definitely a feat worthy of song. Well, yeah. Writer of the Last Hope. Rock on me, Festel.

[Matt]

Yeah, I would. I would say I. In my head. Cannon. I'm going to say that he ran out of food, but he was giving his last food to the horse.

[Alan Sisto]

I don't even know. Can you. Can you carry enough food? I didn't ask you this. I should have. Can you carry 15 days worth of feed for your animal? Or is the horse feeding off of grass and berries and things? Right. Is he foraging for food wall?

[Matt]

I just imagine him with his last apple or something, you know, I like that. Yeah. He's just like. He's reaching it out. Maybe he literally had a carrot on a stick in front of the horse as he's being chewed, chased by orcs. He's like, here, nibble, nibble on this. We can't stop. Keep going.

[Alan Sisto]

Keep on going, man. We can't rest.

[Matt]

Yeah. Now, she wondered if maybe there were way stations in the earlier portion of this ride, you know, enabling him to actually change out horses.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, like the Pony Express kind of thing.

[Matt]

Yeah. The text doesn't tell us, but that actually makes this a bit more conceivable if he could change horses each day until, say, the undeeps. After that, Gondor had no more reach. So he'd had to push pretty hard at that point and probably is sticking with the same horse.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, he'd have to stick with the same horse. So maybe if he did, you know, a higher pace, let's say 75 or 80 a day on those first few days, because he was doing one horse a day until he gets to the undeeps. But, you know, that's not even halfway there. So.

[Matt]

Yeah, it's a.

[Alan Sisto]

It's a tough one. And then I did. Like I said, I forgot to ask her about food for the horse. There's no way he could pack 15 days worth of feed. Would have had to have time to forage, which makes this feat even more incredible, I think. Really? Wow. That's wild.

[Matt]

Yeah. But we see that he does make it to aorl in those 15 days and can barely deliver the message to the Lord of the Eotheod.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

And Eorl doesn't take long to decide. He needs to come knowing that if Minas Tirith, what he calls Mundberg, meaning Guardian Fortress, were to fall, then darkness is inevitable.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, and it's a good thing he didn't take very long to decide. And it's a good thing that it was one of the riders that went out on the first day, because can you imagine if it was, like, one of the guys from the third pairing sent out. They arrived too late. It's all over.

[Matt]

Oh, gosh.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I love this, though. He takes Borandir's hand as a sign of this commitment. Presumably he left it attached to his arm. More of a handshake deal. Here. He's stirrupless, not Air Camion. You know, Baron Ercameon. He's not. He's not Maedhros here. But I do like EORL's quick decision making. And I can't help but think of Theoden in the books, you know, in the books, of course, it's the Red Arrow. In the films, it's the beacons. And even though Theoden has, in the films, made noises about, you know, oh, where was Gondor when the Westfold fell?

[Matt]

It's like you didn't ask for their help, man.

[Alan Sisto]

I know. Exactly. Did you let them know? Did you like the beacons?

[Matt]

How were they supposed to find out about the Westfold Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, obviously, movie Theoden has to have that tension. I get it.

[Matt]

I understand, of course.

[Alan Sisto]

But even that guy, Even movie Theoden, when the beacons are lit, says, and Rohan will answer. And that is the spirit of these people.

[Matt]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

And it's such a great. It feels so true to a Tolkienian hero, you know, like an Aoral. Yes. And, like, when push comes to shove, like, they might grumble about things, but when it comes to doing the right and honorable thing, the Tolkienian heroes do not hesitate, and they. They spring into action. And I love that. You know, we. Like you said, we see it with Theoden. We see it here with a oral. It's like it's go time, like. Exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

And he knows it's all in right now.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now it's time for Aorl's people now to prepare for their long ride south.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

And so they start pulling together, you know, all these people, and that takes time.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah. You got to gather them. You got to give them weapons and armor. Yeah.

[Matt]

Food. We don't want to run out. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

No, we don't. Food for our horses, all the supplies.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah. And. And as king, it's also his responsibility, you know, he's got to consider, how are they going to protect those who stay behind? Because they're not taking everybody.

[Alan Sisto]

No, they're not going to take their women and children. Or, I mean, maybe they do take some women. I think they do, in my head canon. But, you know, some of them are not going to be able to fight. They're going to be too old, too young. You've got some men that are too old, too young, or maybe injured. So you got to protect those who stay behind. Yeah, you're at peace with their neighbors at the moment, but this is peace through strength here. The minute that some of these neighbors learn that Aoral and every other warrior of the Eotheod has set it to the south, well, their lands could easily become a target. You know, I mean, if I'm a neighbor who's smart enough to know not to go to war against these guys. But then I hear that the king and all of his army has left, I might just come in and take what's there. So Eorle's trying to figure out, you.

[Matt]

Would not be a Tolkienian hero if you did that.

[Alan Sisto]

No, of course I wouldn't. And of course I wouldn't do that personally, but, yeah, that's good. But like you said, the Tolkienian hero here, right at the end of all this, Eorl comes to that correct conclusion, there is no point in sending a small force. If I do that, not only is it not going to help Gondor, I'm dooming all my people to death. Right.

[Matt]

That you are taking. Yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Because they're going to be overwhelmed if it's a small force. I either bring everybody to this battle and I do it right now, or I have to back out of my commitment. And like you said before, with Tolkienian heroes, they're sort of all in right now. You know, they do the thing.

[Matt]

They do the thing. Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

There may be discussion about it. I'm thinking of everything from the Council of Elrond to the last debate. You know, there's lots of conversation about whether this is the right approach, but once it's decided that it's the right.

[Matt]

Approach, the execution is there's no wavering.

[Alan Sisto]

And there's no wavering. Right. Yeah, yeah, it's great.

[Matt]

Yeah. I. Yeah, I love this. And, yeah, it is a calculated risk, but like you said. Yeah, there's. There's not much option here. I mean, Gondor is. You know, he acknowledges that if Gondor has this existential threat.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

It's not going to bode well for anyone.

[Alan Sisto]

No, no. I mean, if Mundberg falls. Right. I mean, that's the thing. He knows, just like we see later in the Third Age, if Minas Tirith falls, it's bad for everybody.

[Matt]

Yeah. We're all screwed. So, yeah, go all out or don't go at all. Now, after they got the army together, they did leave behind a few hundred to protect the folks staying behind, you know, people who are too old, too young, etc.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[Matt]

And we're told that this force leaves on the sixth day of Virse. So that brings us back to the king's reckoning calendar once again.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. I'm so happy about that. Vrese is the next month on the calendar after Suleimay, and it's also 30 days in length. Now, the name is not glossed for us anywhere, but it possibly means new, young, or budding. It corresponds to March 23 to April 21.

[Matt]

So the sixth day of Vrese is about March 29. It took the Eotheod 11 days to gather their forces, prepare and set out, which really isn't. Not too bad.

[Alan Sisto]

No, not bad when you're talking about the numbers that they set out with. That's pretty impressive. And the Eohera, which is an Old English word, an actual Old English word meaning horse host, leaves in silence And I love the way the text says this. Leaving fear behind and taking with them small hope. Not. No hope. They're not leaving hope behind, they're leaving fear behind.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

It really immediately in my mind brings me to the ride of the Rohirrim in 3019, the muster, the huge force. And yeah, they don't know what is going to await them, but they're going with a little bit of hope and they're leaving fear behind. I just. What a phrase that is.

[Matt]

I think this is just another bit of evidence of why the Rohirrim as a whole are very popular among fans. Like, there's a reason, you know, fans love the Rohirrim, even if they have, like a favorite. Like Aragorn's, my favorite. You know, you love the Dwarves or whatever. It's like everyone acknowledges the Rohirrim are awesome.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

And it's just, no matter. Like, it's films, it's movies, you know, know, it's. It's in the films, it's in the books. They have these amazing moments where, you know, there's not a whole lot of hope. They have a little bit of hope, but fear be danged, they're going, you know. Yeah, they're doing it. And like, it's. It's just that, you know, those great old English roots, those classical. The Beowulf hero, Beowulf type stuff, man, it's just. Just injected into my veins. That's all I have to say. Like, I love it. I live for this stuff.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

And I absolutely love it.

[Alan Sisto]

That's why I'm having you on for this section of the story. Right. I knew Rohirrim. I gotta call him.

[Matt]

This is my jam. This is my jam, man. Like, yeah. Now they're doing this without any knowledge of what awaits for them. And when they get to their destination or even on the road there.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. They know it's a long journey. Yeah. They don't know. They know there's going to be battle. They know that much. But they don't know how big the forces are, where they're going to fight. They don't know any of this. They're just going. Because they know they've been. They've been called. They know there's a need and they're going to meet that need.

[Matt]

I'm sure Boron deer has probably said, like, oh, by the way, I got chased for two days straight.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

So we've got that to look forward to.

[Alan Sisto]

We do. There's the whole shadow dog Ul dur thing. Yeah. Yeah. Fortunately, the Force is pretty big. Right. AORL does pull together a large army. It's said to consist of 7,000 cavalry, plus several hundred mounted archers. Now, as we talked about in the ride of the Rohirrim a few years back, those 7,000 or maybe 8,000, let's say, with the horse archers, those would have to be supported by many other horses carrying wagons of food, weapons, armor and supplies. You're not going to put all the barding on the horse to ride two weeks plus to get to a battle because then they're going to be exhausted. You got to keep those horses fresh. So you're going to actually be riding other animals and keeping your, your war horses fresh. You've got to feed all of them, plus all of you, plus all of the logistical chain that's there. So there's, there's a lot of people. We're talking likely 20,000 or more horses riding down from the north. I mean, two to one is not. Yeah, unexpected. In fact, that's probably a fairly conservative number. Two horses for every horse that's going to be in the battle. So if you're talking about 7 or 8,000, then, you know, you're talking about an extra. It's probably more than 20,000. I mean, I've got to say, probably 22, 23,000. Not surprising.

[Matt]

Yeah. And all organizing all that in 11 days. So there's. That's where you get. You might think, like it took them 11 days to write out, but that's a lot of people.

[Alan Sisto]

You try.

[Matt]

It's a lot of people and animals and everything. So that, that kind of gives you the context there.

[Alan Sisto]

Working around the clock for, you know, a week and a half. Yeah.

[Matt]

Now, Also in those 11 days, we see boron deer, you know, has obviously recovered from his insanely difficult ride. He's had some time to recoup, and he's going to be a guide by the right hand of AORL and the host is not attacked or even threatened their entire journey. I, I mean, I can see why, like, you see a host of 20,000 horses, like, you know, you're probably going to get out of the way, you know, like, yeah, if there was like half a dozen chasing boron deer, you know, those same six orcs are like, yeah, we're going to sit this one out. We're going to hide in the trees. Yeah, screw that.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, just even the 7,000, plus the horse archers, which of course they're not doing that. They have to be bringing, you know, pack animals. But my goodness, that's a Massive force. I mean, definitely get out of the way. And we're going to get out of the way for a quick add break. Now, folks, if you're enjoying the ppp, please consider supporting the show by joining the Fellowship of the Podcast. It's what gives me the time and resources that I need to work on making this show better every season. When you join, you get the best discord community around. And yeah, Matt, I'm sorry, that includes yours. I'm just gonna. I'm just gonna say it got an amazing discord community.

[Matt]

It's funny because I was gonna chime in and say, or second best, but I was like, I'm not gonna do that on Alan's show.

[Alan Sisto]

Your community.

[Matt]

And then you just did it.

[Alan Sisto]

But, you know, there's so much overlap.

[Matt]

So really, there is a lot of overlap.

[Alan Sisto]

There is a lot. And they're really great communities. But yeah, you do get the best discord community around when you join the Fellowship of the Podcast. You get live episode recordings, you get hangouts every month. You can get episode postscripts, ad free episodes, free merch, and more.

[Matt]

You can also become part of our Questions After Nightfall episodes or even join us as a guest in the north wing. So Please go to patreon.com prancingponypod to show your support and join the Fellowship of the Podcast.

[Alan Sisto]

And you can always help us out as well by giving us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts and a rating on Spotify. And please recommend us to your friends. Now, Matt, we've got a little bit more to read. Can you tell us a little bit about the wisdom of Felaroth?

[Matt]

Indeed, when at last the host drew near to Dol Guldur, Eorl turned away westward for fear of the dark shadow and cloud that flowed out from it. And then he rode on within sight of Anduin. Many of the riders turned their eyes thither, half in fear and half in hope, to glimpse from afar the shimmer of the Dwymmerdine, the perilous land that in legends of their people was said to shine like gold in the springtime. But now it seemed shrouded in a gleaming mist. And to their dismay, the mist passed over the river and flowed over the land before them. Eorl did not halt. Ride on, he commanded. There is no other way to take after so long a road. Shall we be held back from battle by a river mist? As they drew nearer, they saw that the white mist was driving back the glooms of Dol Guldur. And soon they passed into it, riding slowly at first and warily. But under its canopy all things were lit with a clear and shadowless light, while to the left and right they were guarded, as it were, by white walls of secrecy. The lady of the Golden Wood is on our side, it seems, said Borondir. Maybe, said Eorl. But at least I will trust the wisdom of Felaroth. He scents no evil. His heart is high and his weariness is healed. He strains to be given his head. So be it, for never have I had more need of secrecy and speed. Then Felarof sprang forward, and all the host behind followed like a great wind, but in strange silence, as if their hooves did not beat upon the ground. So they rode on, as fresh and eager as on the morning of their setting out, during that day and the next. But at dawn of the third day, they rose from their rest, and suddenly the mist was gone, and they saw that they were far out in the open lands on their right. The Anduin lay near, but they had almost passed its great eastward loop, and the Undeeps were in sight. It was the morning of the 15th day of Viresse, and they had come there at a speed beyond hope.

[Alan Sisto]

I love that. I'm getting chills just thinking about it.

[Matt]

Good stuff.

[Alan Sisto]

It really, really is. We did skip reading the very first bit, but let's take a look at what happened as the Eotheod made their way south. Now, even when they got to the southern part of the forest, an area the text says is infested by the enemy, there still wasn't anybody to confront them or even to spy on them, which is interesting. And it turns out this was because of the text says, events unknown to them. Matt, what events unknown to them are going on here? What are we talking about? There's not much going on in 2510, according to the Tale of Years. I mean, the only other thing mentioned is Calabrian going across the sea, but that happened in the Redhorn Pass the year before. She never made it to Lorien, so I don't think that's it. What are we talking about?

[Matt]

I don't know. I didn't connect the dots between Celebrian passing over the sea. But in light of the mist that we see here, it makes me think like, man, maybe Galadriel got really pissed off. Yeah, my daughter, she just lost her daughter, essentially, you know, for a time, at least.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt]

And it's like. It's like, all right, you want to play this game, Sauron? And then she. She helps the. The Aotheod a bit. You know, that.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, I hadn't even tied the two together because I was just thinking, oh, you know, it's no relation to that, because that happened before she even made it over the Misty Mountains. But you're right. Maybe Galadriel's like, all right, fine. We're amping this up. We're gonna play this game now.

[Matt]

She needs to let off some steam. So she's gonna. She's gonna drive back that darkness from dol.

[Alan Sisto]

Let off some steam. I see what you did there.

[Matt]

Oh, I didn't even mean to do it. Oh, man. This is the effect you're having on me.

[Alan Sisto]

See?

[Matt]

Oh, my gosh.

[Alan Sisto]

No, you should be proud of yourself.

[Matt]

We're going to get more hate mail from Sean from all these puns. Oh, man.

[Alan Sisto]

But events unknown. Like, what other things are happening? I mean, what things could be happening if it's not that, though? I like that. I like the idea of Galadriel being really sad and angry and wanting to take action.

[Matt]

Yeah. I mean, she would have helped him out anyway, I think.

[Alan Sisto]

I think so.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I think.

[Matt]

I don't. I don't.

[Alan Sisto]

She had to know this was coming. I mean, right? We know that the Galadhrim are, you know, really good at knowing what's.

[Matt]

They're on top of things. Yeah. Yeah, on top of things. I'm sure Barondir thinks, like, you know, you could have helped me out a little bit as I was passing that area.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, you're still alive, aren't you? Boron deer. Oh, yeah. How do you know we didn't?

[Matt]

That's true. That's true.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, it was only six orcs chasing you. The only reason it wasn't 30 is because we shot most of them.

[Matt]

Yeah. Yeah, so what? Yeah, so what? Could be other events unknown.

[Alan Sisto]

That's the thing. I mean, it clearly is implying something about Galadriel and Sauron. Right? It's clearly. But really, I mean, what other things? Even the southern part of the forest, nobody even to spy on them. I don't know. I don't know. It's weird that there's not even recon being done.

[Matt]

Yeah, well, it could be, you know, if. If we see the more overt obvious thing of the mist coming from Galadriel. Yeah, she's clearly aware of this muster taking place and heading down. Who's to say there aren't? There isn't something more. More ground level happening? Yeah, where she's sending soldiers to, you know, snipe some guys with their bows and arrows. You know, maybe they're helping out in the shadows. Yeah, I don't know.

[Alan Sisto]

I like that. I mean, it's events unknown to them. That's the point. It's events unknown to them and us.

[Matt]

It's all theories at this point.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly.

[Matt]

Now, where we picked up reading, we see that they're now nearing the southern edge of Mirkwood, which, as we've discussed, means they're nearing Dol Guldur. And understandably, they steer a bit to the west in order to avoid the visible, tangible sense of evil emanating from Sauron's vacation home. And, yeah, as they approach the Anduin, the writers look to see if they can spot the land of Lorien. And I love what the text says here. Half in fear and half in hope.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, that is so good. And it is so perfect for the Rohiro. I mean, yeah, they even had stories about this place. Right. It makes sense, given they used to live north of Lorien in the vales of Anduin. So they used to be closer. Not only can they not see the land, though, they begin to get dismayed by this mist that covers it and flows out over their road to the south.

[Matt]

I was just thinking, like, do you think, you know, some of this half in fear, half in hope, this relationship or this thought they have of Galadriel, like, plays out later with Eomer?

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking about.

[Matt]

Like, yeah, these. These. The way that he kind of talks about Galadriel, like, they don't. They don't really know.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a fear there.

[Matt]

It's like we. We think she might be good, but she might be really bad.

[Alan Sisto]

She might be terrifying.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah, she. She is terrifying, apparently to them. But Aorl isn't going to be stopped by a little fog and commands his troops to keep going. After all, what other way is there but forward?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. And how else can we go forward? Right. We can't go and cross into Lorien, and we sure don't want to get any closer to Dol Guldur. So this is the path that we've got to take. And as they do, they witness this fascinating battle between light and dark. And it's one that we see continuing to play out more than 500 years later when the Fellowship arrives in Lorien, we read about Haldir explaining about Dol Guldur. He says a black cloud lies often over it of late. In this high place, you may see the two powers that are opposed one to another, and ever they Strive now in thought. But whereas the light perceives the very heart of the darkness, its own secret has not been discovered. Okay, so that's 500 years from now when we see the black cloud lying over Dol Guldur. And literally, a battle that you can see in this high place. You may see the two powers that are opposed one to another, and the light and dark. And it's very, very clear, very visual, very powerful metaphor here. I want to see, though, can we connect this, like you mentioned earlier, to these events unknown to them that we talked about before? Yeah, this battle between these two.

[Matt]

Yeah. So this battle between light and dark symbolically played out with the mist and the glooms, you know, sees the white mist pushing back the dark, giving Eorl and his people safe passage.

[Alan Sisto]

That light and shadow thing that we see all the time.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah. Great symbolism, for sure. Barondir takes this as a sign that Galadriel's on their side. And he calls her the lady of the Golden Wood, which is the same phrase, you know, we talked about. Eomer. That's exactly the same phrase that Eomer does use in the Lord of the Rings.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Eorl, though, doesn't seem to well know or care. Right. He's whatever. You know, I'm going to trust Felaroth. I can trust this horse that I've been working with now for a few years. I know him well, and, you know, he doesn't sense any danger. In fact, it seems that Eorl is just not impressed with Galadriel here. After he exchanges oaths with Cirion. We'll read in a couple of episodes. Eorl says that he has to go back, and he's explaining the journey to Cirion. He says there isn't a road on the west side of the river and that none can pass, few or many through the Dwemerdine where dwells the white lady that weaves nets that no mortal can pass, which is very much in line with what Amer says.

[Matt]

Yes, it's very Rohirric, I must say. They seem to have a vibe when it comes to.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah, that's right.

[Matt]

Yeah. And it is also very, very Rohirric feeling that he is, you know, trusting his horse, you know?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

It's like, I don't know about all that magic stuff, but my horse says it's fine, you know, and he even says, you know, Felleroff is no longer tired, you know, and he can't smell any evil.

[Alan Sisto]

I love that. It's a new paladin horse ability.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Smell evil.

[Matt]

And we see that Felleroff is. He's itching to get going, so. So let's. Let's go. Giddy up.

[Alan Sisto]

To be given his head. He wants to be freed. You know, he wants to be able to run at full speed.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah. So he. He bolts forward, and the rest of his people follow behind.

[Alan Sisto]

Interestingly, though, in a strange silence, as if their hooves did not beat upon the ground. Now, is this a more active assistance from Galadriel? Is she, like, somehow, instead of just extending the mist out to sort of drive the shadow away and protect, you know, give them, like, visual cover? Is she hiding them from Sauron's forces by sort of. I don't know, suppressing the sound? Is this a magical thing?

[Matt]

I think it's soundproofing. Like, the mist is soundproof is what.

[Alan Sisto]

Should record my podcast there.

[Matt]

You should. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Be nice. Yeah. Have Galadriel just. Yeah. Don't even have to build a booth.

[Matt]

Yeah. I think it's. It's good for your skin, too.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, I'm sure. And the mist would be. Yeah. Wonderful for my skin.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

It's too late for my skin, Matt. All right, now, I do think you're right. It is an active thing. And this is no longer, like. You know, the first time I read this, I think I was imagining this force coming down and encountering the mist and everything. I was thinking of it almost as, oh, what fortunate timing that they're coming through at a time when Galadriel and Sauron are having this little battle. Yeah, I don't think so. I think we've really hit on it here. This is active participation by Galadriel. She is protecting them on purpose. And this is the clincher, isn't it? Because now it's not just a visual thing that may or may not be a coincidence because of her conflict with Sauron. This is some sort of active magical ability suppressing the sound. I think you're right.

[Matt]

Yeah. This is not just a simple matter of, like, fog delay, two hour delay.

[Alan Sisto]

No.

[Matt]

Morning kindergarten kind of thing.

[Alan Sisto]

No, no, this is.

[Matt]

This is a supernatural fog that we're dealing with.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, man. Yeah. I sadly know exactly what you mean.

[Matt]

Now, even though they've been on the road now for a week, they feel as ready to go as they did when they first left.

[Alan Sisto]

Freshened up, man.

[Matt]

Yeah. And I. I say a week because we learned that on the third day after this, the mist was gone and they'd arrive at their destination.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[Matt]

It. And it was the 15th day of VI. So it was the 13th when the mist came and we know they'd left on the 6th.

[Alan Sisto]

That's exactly right, because they talk about how they felt as fresh as they did the day they left on that day and the next, and then on the third day the mist was gone and it was the 15th of Rasi. So, yeah, the mist arrives on the 13th, or I should say they arrived to the mist on the 13th and we knew from the account that they left on the 6th. So it's been a week. And then they get the two days, two and a half days through the mist and as they come out of the mist, they're approaching the Undeeps, having passed the great eastward loop of the Anduin. Now that is interesting and warranted a footnote. Christopher Tolkien explains that this eastward bit appears to be in contradiction to the first citation given in the history of Galadriel and Celeborn, where the north and south undeeps are the two westward bends of the Anduin. And that's also what the map shows them being. So I think this was just an error.

[Matt]

Yeah, and as we mentioned before, it's the 15th of Virese, which means they've covered this distance in nine days. And that definitely qualifies as a speed beyond hope.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, it does. Christopher explains in a footnote. In nine days they had covered more than 500 miles in a direct line, probably more than 600 as they rode. Though there were no great natural obstacles on the east side of Anduin, much of the land was now desolate and roads or horse paths running southward were lost or little used. Only for short periods were they able to ride at speed. And they needed also to husband their own strength and their horses, since they expected battle as soon as they reached the Undeeps.

[Matt]

Now that means they covered more than 66 miles per day, and that's actually a slightly greater distance than Boron deer averaged, although his was over a 15 day span and not a nine day span. And Aorl's horses would have been supplied better for sure.

[Alan Sisto]

That's true. Yeah, they definitely had, you know, pack animals and wagons probably bringing food. But still, even at that pace of 66 miles a day, they were able to husband their own strength and their horse's strength in order to be ready for battle.

[Matt]

Now, speaking of battle, I think it is finally time at long last, to get to the Field of Celebrant.

[Alan Sisto]

I think so Here the text ends with a note that a description of the battle of the Field of Celebrant was to Follow in Appendix A2 to the Lord of the Rings there is a summary account of the One War. A great host of wild men from the northeast swept over Rhovanion and coming down out of the brown lands, crossed the Anduin on rafts. At the same time, by chance or design, the Orcs who at that time before their war with the dwarves were in great strength made a descent from the mountains. The invaders overran Calenardhon and Cirion Steward of Gondor, sent north for help. When Eorl and his riders came to the Field of Celebrant the northern army of Gondor was in peril. Defeated in the Wold and cut off from the south it had been driven across the Limlight and was then suddenly assailed by the Orc host that pressed it towards the Anduin. All hope was lost when unlooked for the riders came out of the north and broke upon the rear of the enemy. Then the fortunes of battle were reversed and the enemy was driven with slaughter over Limblight. Eorl led his men in pursuit and so great was the fear that went before the horsemen of the north that the invaders of the Wold were also thrown into panic and the riders hunted them over the plains of Calenardhon. A similar briefer account is given elsewhere in Appendix A. From Neither is the course of the battle perhaps perfectly clear but it seems certain that the riders, having passed over the Undeeps, then crossed the Limlight and fell upon the rear of the enemy at the Field of Celebrant. And that the enemy was driven with slaughter over Limlight means that the Balchoth were driven back southwards into the Wold.

[Matt]

At this point Christopher discovers that his father's written text ends and that while he intended to write a description of the battle of the Field of Celebrant, he never got around to the full version.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, what would that look like? Yeah. Oh, man. I want a full. You know the battle fields. I want that. I want it now. Write it for us, Professor.

[Matt]

I love. Oh my gosh. Like so great was the fear and driven with slaughter over the limb light. How great is that line? Tell me more, Professor.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm thinking of moments on the pollen or like Theoden seeing the standard of the Southrons and charging for it and taking the leader down and taking the standard down and Amir standing on the hillock ready to be killed. Right. He's now the new king, but he's the king of a doomed people who are about to die and he's laughing with this Fey Doom. And then the Fall fell, and fair the fleet arrives. And it's all those moments. Can you imagine something like that here? What that would have looked like?

[Matt]

This is definitely a good example. But there's so many moments like this where I'm like, I just want you to see the battles.

[Alan Sisto]

In particular, I want to see them. I want to know more. Now, we do know one thing that would have been included. It's what we found in that footnote on Borondir that we didn't want to spoil earlier. There we read, and you can now read it with us. Borondir rode back with the Eohera at the right hand of Eorl and was the first to cross the limelight and cleave a path to the aid of Cirion. He fell at last on the field of Celebrant, defending his lord to the great grief of Gondor and the Eotheod and was afterwards laid in tomb in the hallows of Minas Tirith. Oh, man. No wonder the writer of Last Hope is a great song.

[Matt]

Right? And I just love that, you know, the idea that of all the people writing there, who's gonna be the most eager to go defend the Gondorians? And it's him. And the idea that he charges. He's the first.

[Alan Sisto]

It's Borondir. Yeah. Borondir goes to defend his lord. That's his job. Right. You sent me on this incredibly difficult journey. My riding mate was killed.

[Matt]

Right. If anyone had earned retirement, it's him.

[Alan Sisto]

I know. You should be chilling up back in the fortified burg up there in the north. Like.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, making sure, you know, I'll keep your people safe while you go.

[Matt]

Yeah, right.

[Alan Sisto]

Little vacation in the north, maybe get a little skiing done in the mountains.

[Matt]

Yeah. But then we see, you know, he. He's. He's honored, too, you know? Like, not only does he get a song, which is awesome, but he gets a tomb in the Hallows of Minas Tirith as well.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Resting with the kings. I mean, this is something serious.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Wow. I. You know, this would be a heck of a story, wouldn't it? Boron Deer's story.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

As you know, an adaptation would be fantastic. It's. I want to see more on this.

[Matt]

I always think, you know, with what we saw with, like, the Peter Jackson Lord of the Rings trilogy, is that your secondary and tertiary characters are so rich. And that's something that I think is, you know, maybe, you know, not. Not that Tolkien's the only example of this. But no, of course it's some. It's something that. That unquestionably Tolkien does really well. Is that really well. Get. You get these secondary and tertiary characters that you end up, you know, caring about just as much as the main heroes. You know, like, Aomer Amir is a great example. Yeah, he's a great example of, you know, he might. Amir might even be considered a tertiary character. Like, I don't know.

[Alan Sisto]

I'd say secondary.

[Matt]

Secondary. Secondary.

[Alan Sisto]

Secondary. I'm saying with Faramir, secondary tertiary. You'd be, you know, now Glorfindel or.

[Matt]

You know, like Baragon.

[Alan Sisto]

He's not even in the movies, but he's a tertiary character in the book. So you absolutely love. Yeah.

[Matt]

Yes. You absolutely love Beregond. Like, he's such a small part, but this is. This is part of the magic of Tolkien for me, is how much he makes you care about these characters. So, yeah, I look at, you know, if. If you were to do a Foundations of Rohan kind of video or kind of movie, Borondir is one of those characters that brings the magic of Middle Earth because he's a secondary character that you could care about so much.

[Alan Sisto]

And what you get from him is a dedication to his people and to heroism that you get to sort of inhabit through that. Right. Like, you love Gondor now and you love Cirion now because you see Borondir willing to do all this for her. Gondor and Kyrion.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

It's fantastic.

[Matt]

You care because he cares.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. And he's such a great story. And I love that he's of. Of of mixed race, that he is descended from a captain of the North. I think that's just fantastic. And it explains also why he's able to make that ride in 15.

[Matt]

I was gonna say maybe that. Maybe that helps out. It's in his blood to make that ride. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, I don't think we. I did a lot of math about the riding, but now I realize those 15 days for him to get there, 11 days for them to get the army together, and nine days to come back. So it's 35 days after the message goes out. Really, considering the distances involved, that's not bad.

[Matt]

Oh, no, it's not bad. But it's still. It's like.

[Alan Sisto]

It's still very long.

[Matt]

Over a month.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matt]

It's kind of wild.

[Alan Sisto]

Incredible, but, yeah, fantastic. I absolutely love the story of Borondir.

[Matt]

Now, lacking a full version of his father's writings, Christopher reminds us of the version in appendix A2 that we would have covered this back in episode 352, I believe.

[Alan Sisto]

Correct? Yeah. Four episodes back. Yeah. Right before the Christmas break. Yeah.

[Matt]

Yeah. So this, this tells us how the enemy came across the Anduin on rafts, presumably near the undeeps, and how at the same time orcs were attacking from the west.

[Alan Sisto]

Now he continues to pull from that appendix, and since we covered it, then we're not going to go over it in much detail here, but I do want to have you take a look at the map and if you do that, you can see the trouble that they're in. Cirion's forces are defeated in the Wold. That's the area to the south of the limelight and celebrant. They're cut off and they're driven across the limblight into that little tongue of land between the limelight and the Anduin as it curves to the east.

[Matt]

Then they're attacked from the west. So they've got orcs to the west, limelight to the south, Anduin to the east and north. The writers show up here and according to Christopher's follow up note at the end of what we read, seem to have gone past the Undeeps then across the limblight.

[Alan Sisto]

And I have to say, that description almost makes me think they came from the south or southeast when attacking the enemy. But the Balcoth retreats south to the Wold. So I have to admit I'm a little confused. And it's no wonder that Christopher says from neither account is the course of the battle perhaps perfectly clear?

[Matt]

Yeah, I mean, battles can be confusing. Sometimes they can.

[Alan Sisto]

I know. I definitely want to talk with Brett Devereux about this. I'm hoping that we get a chance to get him on, hopefully in the next few episodes. We'll have to see. Now, from neither account is the course of the mailbag perhaps perfectly clear, but it seems certain that Barliman, having passed over the bar, then crossed the common room and fell upon the rear of. Now I can't keep going. Matt, what does Barlowman have for us tonight?

[Matt]

Barlaman's got a message for us from Justin in California, who asks, do you think the Tolkien estate will or should ever allow a writer to expand the world of Middle Earth with new books or perhaps completing stories like Fall of Gondolin?

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, man, that is tough. That is tough. The first thing that comes to mind, and I'm sure it's the thing you're thinking of as well, Matt, is the famous quote from letter number 131 about other minds and hands. And hands. I want to read that to get it in context because I think people really do lack that context and think that it means something other than what I think he's saying here.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Now keep in mind the context of the letter is he's writing to another publisher because his own publisher is like, no, no, we're not interested in the Silmarillion. And Tolkien's like, no, no, no, you've got to publish the Silmarillion. I really want the Silmarillion published.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And so he's talking to another publisher about the idea of publishing, get this, the Silmarillion and the Lord of the Rings. And he's talking about what he wanted to do. He says that once upon a time I had a mind to make a body of more or less connected legend. And he talks about what it would. Would look like. Right, what, what that body of legend would look like that he would dedicate simply to England, to my country. He wanted it to possess a particular tone and quality, basically to feel like a northern story, a story of the Northwest. Then he says, I would draw some of the great tales in fullness and leave many only placed in the scheme and sketched. Okay, professor, you've done exactly that. Thank you very much. You know, you've only sketched some of these things. He says the cycles should be linked to a majestic whole and yet leave scope for other minds and hands. This is important, I think, wielding paint and music and drama. Then he ends that paragraph with one word, absurd. So we have a couple of things to think about there. Number one, it feels like what he's saying is, yes, I wanted to do this in the big picture. I wanted to do this. I thought this would be great. But that's absurd. So it's not what I've done. And second, even when I want to leave room for other minds and hands, he's very clear. Paint, music and drama. Yeah. He's talking about other media, he's talking about other forms of storytelling. He's not saying for other minds and hands writing literary fiction.

[Matt]

Right. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And I think that's important.

[Matt]

I think it is too. Yeah. I think the most qualified person to have done this, sadly, is no longer with us. That being Christopher. I will say, like one of my absolute favorite Tolkien books is Children of Hurin, which, which is. Is kind of the most, you know.

[Alan Sisto]

You could argue it's the most co authored book.

[Matt]

Yes, yes, the most co authored. That's a great way to say it.

[Alan Sisto]

The most co author Christopher contributed a lot to that.

[Matt]

Yes. And. And, like, honestly, it's that book that. That kind of convinces me that he could have, if he wanted to.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

100% could have filled out Fall of Gondolin, Baron, and Luthien into full books of their own. You know, we have those books, but they're presenting multiple versions of the same story. I'm talking, like a fully narrative story.

[Alan Sisto]

To turn it into something more like the Children of Hurin, which is a full narrative, as opposed to bits and pieces.

[Matt]

Yeah, I, you know, so I. I don't think it's. It's impossible, you know, that. That someone could have done it. I just think the. The one who could have done it is no longer with us and didn't feel himself worthy to do it. No thing.

[Alan Sisto]

Every time he did fill in the blanks, you could tell when he talked about it in History, Middle Earth, that he felt like he didn't do it. Right, Right. Yeah.

[Matt]

You know, he felt very inadequate, it seemed like. Which you know, to me, that if anything's absurd, like, that's like.

[Alan Sisto]

I kind of roll my eyes so.

[Matt]

Good.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. I'm like, you were fantastic.

[Matt]

But, yeah, yeah, like, stop with the humility and fill out this story for us, please.

[Alan Sisto]

Please. And at the same time, though, any efforts that he would have made to complete those gaps in the fiction, let's say Fall of Gondolin, for instance, I really want to know more about what happened when he gets to the Gates and he's at the seventh Gate, and I want to know how he meets Idril. I want to see all of that.

[Matt]

I want that conversation. I want his reaction.

[Alan Sisto]

But every minute he spends writing that is another minute he doesn't spend on the history of Middle Earth and bringing to light all of the incredible work that his father did. So, yeah, I feel like that's really important to keep in mind. Following up on what I said earlier from letter 131, it's another comment sort of on the idea of other writers joining in. In letter 292, Tolkien is writing back to Joy Hill. She's the secretary at Allen and Unwin that he's communicating with about a lot of these things. He had been sent details of a proposed sequel to the Lord of the Rings that some fan was going to write. And I just keep thinking of the guy who wrote his own fan fiction, tried to publish it, and then had the gall to sue Amazon and the Tolkien estate and found it the hard way. Do not poke the bear. But Tolkien writes this in December of 1966. Dear Ms. Hill, I send you the enclosed impertinent contribution to my troubles. I do not know what the legal position is. I suppose that since one cannot claim property in inventing proper names, that there is no legal obstacle to this young ass publishing his sequel. If he could find any publisher, either respectable or disreputable, who would accept such tripe, I have merely informed him that I have forwarded his letter and samples to you. I think that a suitable letter from Allen and Unwin might be more effective than one for me. I once had a similar proposal couched in the most obsequious terms from a young woman. And when I replied in the negative, I received a most vituperative letter. With best wishes, yours sincerely, J.R.R. tolkien. I love that letter. I adore the tone. He's so angry. Old man right there. Get off my lawn. I love it.

[Matt]

But he still is so, so proper. I received a most vituperative letter.

[Alan Sisto]

So a woman writes in and says, I want to write this. And Tolkien says, thank you, but no. And she writes back, nasty and mean. So now he gets another proposal, and he's like, I'm not dealing with this. I'm going to send this straight to my publisher. I think, you guys, maybe your legal counsel should write him a letter.

[Matt]

Who would accept such tripe? Such tripe from this young ass?

[Alan Sisto]

I just adore this letter, and I.

[Matt]

Feel like, so good.

[Alan Sisto]

I feel like. I hate to say this, but I feel like that really does tell us a lot about what he thought. We just recently talked about what might he have thought about AI? You know, there's nothing that says what he thought about AI because it wasn't a thing. But we were able to talk about all those letters that he wrote about the machine or about technology and industry.

[Matt]

And how soulless it would be.

[Alan Sisto]

The machine, the soullessness. So we didn't really have to jump very far, and I'm afraid we don't have to jump very far here.

[Matt]

No.

[Alan Sisto]

I think other than Christopher, I don't think he would have been very open to that at all. All.

[Matt]

No. And it is worth noting that in his will, which you can read, it does say that he gives Christopher permission to complete.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes.

[Matt]

Writings like he. So if Christopher had chosen like, he could have fleshed out as much as he wanted. Now, we know, you know, Christopher was.

[Alan Sisto]

Much more conservative in his approach to that. Yeah.

[Matt]

Yeah. Much more conservative in his approach and, you know, preferred to present his father's.

[Alan Sisto]

Writings and to shed light on it and to, you know, fill in very, very small gaps like in the Silmarillion and then Children of Huron.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, yeah, so, so that's why I think, you know, I'm, I'm even more solidified in my thought. You know, the one person who, who is both capable and, you know, legitimized or off legitimized.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

To, to do such a thing is sadly no longer with us now. You know, the other minds and hands. Obviously. I, I think you're right. I think he envisions that in other media.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes.

[Matt]

Than books.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

And that's where I think, like, the potential lies for, you know, like we're talking about Borondir here, you know, in this rite of arrow, like this needs.

[Alan Sisto]

To write this song, like.

[Matt]

Yeah. Write it in music, you know, and, and put it, put it with an adaptation, you know, that's, that's a visual medium.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

You know, nothing will ever, like, even if, you know, something were to happen and they were to like, start writing new book, you know, they're going to have an asterisk next to them. You know, they're not going to. They might sit on the shelf because that's how alphabetical order works next to them, but it's not going to, it's, it's. They're not going to stack up in any way. So I, I think it would be futile, you know, I think it would.

[Alan Sisto]

I really do. I hope they don't go down that road. I don't think they will go down that road.

[Matt]

I don't think so either.

[Alan Sisto]

I genuinely hope they don't. Even though I want to see those stories finished. And the reason that I'm saying that is one of my other favorite authors, Isaac Asimov, wrote the foundation series, which is a fantastic science fiction series. I think one of the very, very best. After he died, his estate did allow three very accomplished sci fi authors who are very good, and I'm not here to criticize their work, to write one book each. Three more books in the foundation series. And they're good stories. I enjoyed reading them, but they don't match up. They're just not. And I don't think they, I don't necessarily think they were trying to be. And again, this isn't criticism of those authors. It's just they're not Asimov, therefore they're writing and they're not even trying to insulate him, you know, and it's just not the same. There are stories set in that universe with some of those Characters, but they just really, really, really good fan fiction. They don't have that same feeling, even though they are good books on their own. And I'm afraid that's what we'd get here, no matter who we were to choose, who the estate were to choose to write those books. Like you said, with Christopher gone, who are they going to choose?

[Matt]

Right. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

I just think.

[Alan Sisto]

Do you pick scholars? Do you pick Tom Shippey to write fiction? Do you pick Corey Olson to write fiction? Do you pick content creators and podcasters? Matt, you and I work together, collaborate, and write a novel.

[Matt]

No, absolutely not.

[Alan Sisto]

Absolutely not. Yeah. I would turn that down in a heartbeat. You kidding me? That's not for me.

[Matt]

No, you're just asking for it. Oh, my gosh.

[Alan Sisto]

Terrible. Yeah. I'd have a whole chapter on calendars and maps.

[Matt]

No. Yeah. But again, with the. The paint and music and drama. Yeah, that's, you know, what I. What I am interested in. You know, I am a sucker for illustrated editions of these books that I love.

[Alan Sisto]

Absolutely.

[Matt]

You know, if I keep beating the drum every time, you know, each. Each of the new History of Middle Earth box sets that HarperCollins puts out, you know, that they've done over the last year.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

I've said I. I love these, but I want each one an illustrated edition.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm like, yeah, if they want them all.

[Matt]

John, call Alan, call Ted. Like, let's. Let's get the ball rolling. Let's. Let's do some illustrated editions and show some of these.

[Alan Sisto]

And let's get new artists, too. Why not?

[Matt]

Or new artists. Yeah, absolutely.

[Alan Sisto]

Calendar from. Not 2024's calendar, because I think it was the previous 2023.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Had, I think, four or six artists.

[Matt]

Four or six something. Yeah. Somewhere around there. Yeah. Like, let's. Let's. Yeah. So whether it's. It's the classics, the holy triumvirate of artists, or the. Or new. New artists. Like, you know, one of my favorite copies of the Hobbit is the one illustrated by Jemima Caitlyn.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yeah.

[Matt]

I love that.

[Alan Sisto]

It's adorable.

[Matt]

I adore that one. And so I'm much more interested in, you know, obviously adaptations will always get my attention. Movies and stuff.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

But even. Even seeing new illustrated editions or. Yeah, I'm.

[Alan Sisto]

I still think a graphic novel would be pretty amazing. But then you'd have to solve the narrative text. And the problem is there's a lot of narrative text, you know, not dialogue that you have to include.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, you just can't get across in a visual. Purely visual. I think it's down to different media. Choose different media. You know, show it to us in a visual video game. Video games are another medium. Yeah, 100. I mean, you know, he didn't write that in letter number 131 because they weren't a thing.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, Kong.

[Matt]

Even a thing. Then I don't know if Pong.

[Alan Sisto]

No.

[Matt]

Madden. Do you remember when it released, Alan?

[Alan Sisto]

When Pong released? I'm afraid I do. I was.

[Matt]

You do? Oh, okay.

[Alan Sisto]

Let's put it this way. My first video game, 1972. Well, okay, I was a little later to the game than that. But my first video game console was not even an Atari vcs. It was a Coleco tristar. You had three sides of this plastic doohickey. One side had a steering wheel and a two position shifter. One side had Pong paddles and one side had a gun and a holster.

[Matt]

A gun. I'm. Oh my gosh. I'm pulling up the picture. This is interesting.

[Alan Sisto]

And it was a black and white. It was black and white only. And you played Pong, you played Night Driver and you played a shooting game. Yeah.

[Matt]

Wow. Man. Yeah, see I'm. I'm kind of the original Mario Duck Hunt.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh yeah, yeah. Super Nintendo. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

[Matt]

Regular Nintendo. Regular Nintendo.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, okay, okay.

[Matt]

Original Nintendo.

[Alan Sisto]

So you're a little older than that. The SNES crowd.

[Matt]

Coleco jogged my memory. I did play the Smurfs game on colecovision. My dad had a colecovision.

[Alan Sisto]

Colecovision, yeah.

[Matt]

Yeah, that's the first thing I remember playing.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. The Coleco TriStar though is really old. And that's.

[Matt]

I remember getting one of those. Guys listening to this should Google it. Coleco Tri. This is the most bizarre.

[Alan Sisto]

What's wild is if I still had that, that would be worth a lot because it's like in video games museums, right? I mean it's a really cool piece of history.

[Matt]

I just love like I'm looking at this thing and it's a six shooter.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I know.

[Matt]

A six shooter and a steering wheel. It looks like. Yeah, I don't know, like Grand Theft Auto would use this or something.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh yeah, you use both sides. That'd be pretty cool. I like that digression. That was a lot of fun, Matt. But folks, that does wrap it up for another episode of the Prancing Pony podcast. But please be sure to come back next week when we climb the Halifaerian to exchange gifts as we continue the story of Kirian and Eorle indeed.

[Matt]

Now, Alan and I want to thank the members of Team PPP editor Jordan Rannells Barlam and Becca Davis, Social media manager Casey Hilsey, Event and Patreon, community coordinator Katie McKenna, graphic artist Megan Collins and website guru Phil Dean.

[Alan Sisto]

Speaking of the website, please take a minute to check it [e-mail] it's where you'll find show notes, outtakes, Prancing Pony Ponderings, our online storefront where you can get PPP merch, including all the great episode artwork that Megan's been doing for the show over the last couple of seasons.

[Matt]

You'll also want to visit our library page. The Prancing Pony Podcast is, after all, a podcast about the books. So if you're interested in a book we've mentioned on the show, you'll find a link for it in our library. We do get a small amount of compensation when you make your purchase, and we thank you for that.

[Alan Sisto]

Indeed we do. We also want to thank our patrons at the Kirdan's contribution tier. I'll start with Demay in Alaska, Chad in Texas, Lance in New Jersey, Paul in Colorado, Joseph in Michigan, Kathy from North Carolina, Carlos in California, Brian in the uk, Jerry from Washington, Joe in Washington, Irwin from the Netherlands, Ben in Minnesota, Anthony in Texas, June in Ireland, Zaksu in Illinois, Sarah in New Jersey, Joshua in Massachusetts, Lucy in Texas, Keith in Alabama, and Erica in Texas.

[Matt]

There's also Carson in Oklahoma, Vivian in California, James in Massachusetts, Ann in Kentucky, Sean in New Jersey, Mason in California, Maureen from Massachusetts, Olivia in London, Robert in Arizona, Nick in Wisconsin, Lewis in South Carolina, Thomas in Germany, Craig in California, Bailey in Texas, Kevin in Massachusetts, Julie in Washington, Bruce in California, Joe in Maryland, Nathan in Arizona, and Kevin in Pennsylvania. Thank you all so very much for your support indeed.

[Alan Sisto]

Thank you. Thank you.

[Matt]

Make sure you don't miss any episodes of the Prancing Pony Podcast. Subscribe now through Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or your favorite podcast app.

[Alan Sisto]

And one last thing. As always, don't forget to send your thoughts, comments and, well, most of all, your seven thousand and cavalry. Just in time to Barlow at the.

[Matt]

Prancingponypodcast.Com and if you want your voice literally heard, well, just send us audio of your question. Visit podinbox.com prancingponypod and record your question for us. Please be sure to still email the question to Barliman, though.

[Alan Sisto]

Even though Barliman's been a lot more reliable lately, there is still a lot of mail to sort through. We'll try to get to you just as soon as we're able. As as always, though, this has been far too short a time to spend among such excellent and admirable listeners.

[Matt]

But until next time, this is the end. We are going. We are leaving now. Goodbye.