357 – Cirion, Wayward Son

Summary

The Prancing Pony Podcast: Episode 357 – "Cirion, Wayward Son"

Release Date: February 2, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 357 of The Prancing Pony Podcast, hosts Alan Sisto and Matt dive deep into the rich tapestry of J.R.R. Tolkien's Middle-earth, focusing on the intricate relationship between Cirion, the Steward of Gondor, and Eorl, the King of Rohan. This episode seamlessly weaves together narrative readings from Tolkien's lore with insightful discussions, humor, and engaging community interactions.

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Kingly Gifts Segment: The Limited Edition Hobbit

Timestamp: 03:02 - 12:30

Guest: Andrew Ferguson (Trotter)

The episode kicks off with the Kingly Gifts segment, where the hosts welcome Andrew Ferguson from the Tolkien Collector's Guide to discuss a highly sought-after item: the new limited edition of The Hobbit published by the Folio Society.

• Sales Frenzy: The limited edition sold out in under 13 minutes, significantly faster than The Lord of the Rings edition, which took 34 hours. Andrew attributes this to the enduring popularity of The Hobbit and the consistent quality of the Folio Society's publications.

• Production Quality: Andrew highlights the exceptional craftsmanship, including large-sized, separately printed illustrations by Alan Lee, which enhance the reading experience by providing stunning visual contrasts and detailed artwork.

  "They're like prints. You could cut them out and stick them on the wall." – Andrew Ferguson [06:44]

• Limited Edition Details: The edition is limited to 1,000 signed copies, featuring a cloth cover, quarter leather binding with silver text, and a meticulous number indication ensuring authenticity.

  "This will only be a thousand copies of this." – Alan Sisto [13:10]

• Future Releases: Andrew anticipates similar high-quality editions for other Tolkien works, such as The Silmarillion, potentially in collaboration with renowned illustrators like Ted Naismith.

The segment underscores the passion of Tolkien enthusiasts and the value of collectible editions in preserving and celebrating Middle-earth's legacy.

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Story Reading and Analysis: Cirion and Eorl's Alliance

Timestamp: 18:12 - 80:35

The core of the episode revolves around the narrative of Cirion and Eorl, two pivotal figures whose alliance shapes the future of Gondor and Rohan.

Geographical and Historical Context

Alan and Matt provide a comprehensive overview of the Beacon network in Gondor, detailing the significance of each beacon hill, especially Haloferion (Amon Anwar), the highest beacon.

• Beacon Network: A sequence of beacons from Amandine to Haloferion serves as a communication system, warning of impending threats.

  "The Great West Road passed through a long cutting in the wood to avoid the wet land beyond its northern eaves." – Narrative Reading [21:50]

• Haloferion's Significance: Positioned in the Firian Wood, Haloferion stands isolated due to its location amidst dense forests, symbolizing its strategic importance and the mystery surrounding it.

Cirion's Diplomatic Mission

Cirion, the current Steward of Gondor, embarks on a mission to reward Eorl for his pivotal role in defending Gondor against the Balchoth and Orcs.

• Secret Preparations: Cirion instructs his trusted servants to reopen the ancient path to Amon Anwar without altering its entrance, emphasizing secrecy and reverence.

  "Tell no one whither you go or what you have done." – Cirion [46:18]

• Journey to the Hill of Awe: Accompanied by Eorl and a select delegation, Cirion leads the party through the Whispering Wood to the summit of Haloferion, where he formally offers Eorl a substantial gift.

  "I will now declare what I have resolved with the authority of the stewards of the kings..." – Narrative Reading [59:37]

The Offer and Its Implications

Cirion offers Eorl the vast land of Cullenarthon, spanning from Anduin to Isen, and the authority to establish a kingship there. This act solidifies the bond between Gondor and Rohan, marking the formal beginning of their alliance.

• Mutual Benefits: The gift ensures Rohan has fertile lands free from threats like Dol Guldur, while Gondor gains a powerful ally on its northern borders.

  "Our enemies are your enemies while both realms endure." – Narrative Reading [65:55]

• Oath of Perpetual Friendship: The alliance is not a master-servant relationship but a covenant of mutual support and perpetual friendship, ensuring both nations stand together against common foes.

  "But the same bond shall be laid also on the people of Gondor." – Narrative Reading [64:30]

Discussion and Insights

The hosts delve into the dynamics of Cirion and Eorl's relationship, highlighting themes of:

• Leadership and Humility: Cirion's reserved nature contrasts with Eorl's youthful vigor, showcasing a harmonious blend of wisdom and strength.

  "Friends are people who live 2,000 miles away when they're recording this." – Alan Sisto [02:31] (Humorous remark)

• Tolkien's Realism: The concept of "textual ruins"—elements of the story only partially revealed—adds depth and realism to Middle-earth's history, mirroring real-world historical uncertainties.

  "It's like a real history." – Alan Sisto [85:10]

• Mutual Respect and Honor: Both leaders respect each other's capabilities and backgrounds, fostering a genuine alliance based on mutual benefit and friendship rather than mere political strategy.

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Listener Questions: The Fate of Shadowfax

Timestamp: 81:44 - 90:24

Question: Anne from Minnesota asks, "Did Shadowfax sail into the west with Gandalf at the end of the Third Age? It appears he was there at the Grey Havens, but the text doesn't specify if he got on the boat. Can animals even come to the Undying Lands?"

• Hosts' Insights:

  • Geographical Consistency: Alan clarifies that Shadowfax is indeed with Gandalf when he departs Middle-earth, based on Tolkien's letters, even though the books don't explicitly state it.

    "Shadowfax must have been there." – Alan Sisto [83:28]

  • Illustrations and Cinematic Representations: They discuss the portrayal of Shadowfax in the films, noting the consistency with Middle-earth's lore regarding his appearance and companionship with Gandalf.

  • Tolkien's Letters: Reference to Tolkien's 1965 letter, which confirms Shadowfax's departure with Gandalf, providing closure to the narrative for dedicated fans.

    "Shadowfax certainly went with Gandalf across the sea." – Alan Sisto [88:38]

• Community Interaction: The hosts engage humorously with the question, blending factual information with light-hearted banter about the emotional bond between Gandalf and Shadowfax.

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Conclusion and Teasers

As the episode wraps up, Alan and Matt reflect on the profound themes of friendship, leadership, and the intricate social dynamics within Tolkien's world. They tease the upcoming episode, which promises to delve into the oaths that bind Gondor and Rohan, and uncover more secrets atop Haloferion.

• Upcoming Topics: Exploration of the formal oaths, the mystical significance of certain locations, and deeper character analyses.

  "We'll get to see those oaths as seem fitting next week." – Alan Sisto [80:35]

• Community Engagement: Encouragement for listeners to join their vibrant online communities across Facebook, Reddit, Twitter, and Instagram for ongoing discussions and exclusive content.

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Notable Quotes

1. Andrew Ferguson on Limited Edition Quality:

   "They're like prints. You could cut them out and stick them on the wall." [06:44]

2. Alan Sisto on Limited Editions Authenticity:

   "This will only be a thousand copies of this." [13:10]

3. Narrative on Cirion's Offer:

   "I will now declare what I have resolved with the authority of the stewards of the kings..." [59:37]

4. Cirion's Instructions to Servants:

   "Tell no one whither you go or what you have done." [46:18]

5. Discussion on Tolkien's 'Textual Ruins':

   "It's like a real history." – Alan Sisto [85:10]

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Final Thoughts

Episode 357 of The Prancing Pony Podcast masterfully blends storytelling with scholarly discussion, offering both seasoned Tolkien fans and newcomers a comprehensive and engaging exploration of Middle-earth's lore. Through detailed readings, expert analysis, and vibrant community interaction, Alan and Matt continue to illuminate the depths of Tolkien's legendary world.

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Transcript

[Alan Sisto]

What's the best time of day to get a deal? All day with Jack in the Box's all day. Big deal meal. You get to choose from four entrees like the supreme croissant and five tasty sides, plus a drink starting at $5. So hurry in or take your time. You've got all day at Jack. Every bite's a big deal.

[Matt]

Since you're new to H and R.

[Alan Sisto]

Block, we'll look at your returns from the last three years for any money.

[Matt]

Your last guy might have missed for free. I could guess money back from last year.

[Alan Sisto]

You could? We'll find any mistakes.

[Matt]

Could have really used that two years ago when I dated that mistake for five months.

[Alan Sisto]

Don't leave money on the table. Switch to H and R Block and get a free Second look review. Second look is included at no additional cost with the purchase of tax preparation. Results vary. All tax situations are different. Fees apply if you have us file an amended return. Good evening, little masters, and welcome to episode 357 of the Prancing Pony podcast, where men wondered in what way I would honor Matt and reward him.

[Matt]

I'm guessing you're gonna hold a great feast and reveal my reward then? Maybe. Perhaps.

[Alan Sisto]

Maybe. Maybe not.

[Matt]

Folks, pull up a bench in the common room and join us. I'm Matt, the nerd of the rings, and I'm here with the man of the west who keeps his own counsel, Alan Sisto.

[Alan Sisto]

Just don't take three months to come back, okay, Aoral, I need to take counsel Record episodes with you each week. Folks, join us as we hike up the Halifurion. Quietly, of course, as we enter the fourth episode of our six episode sidebar through Kyrion and Aoral.

[Matt]

Well, Alan, if you need one of those stairlifts to get up the Halifurion, just let me know.

[Alan Sisto]

They might have.

[Matt]

They might have installed one for folks of a certain age like yourself.

[Alan Sisto]

I see. I see.

[Matt]

Now, folks, no matter how you've arrived, whether you're on a podcast app or via stairlift, you're all welcome here in the common room at the Prancing Pony podcast, where we are reading and talking our way through Middle Earth with plenty of speculation and in case you didn't pick up on it, bad jokes along the way.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, we're going to have to have words about that, Matt. We do love our deep dives into the lore, though, discussing our favorite themes and a whole lot more.

[Matt]

But we try to keep it light and fun, like a couple friends chatting at the pub. And we're glad you've joined us.

[Alan Sisto]

You call that friends?

[Matt]

Well, only, only friends can get away with such comments.

[Alan Sisto]

Friends are people who live 2,000 miles away when they're recording this. Yes. All right, folks, I'm sure you're gonna be glad you joined as well. But before we get to tonight's chapter discussion, it's time to take a close look at a new kingly gift. Now, joining us today for our Kingly gifts segment is our friend Andrew Ferguson. But if you've hung out over at the Tolkien Collector's Guide, you'll as Trotter. Andrew, welcome and thank you for joining us today.

[Andrew Ferguson]

Great to be here. I think we've got a very interesting item to talk about as well.

[Alan Sisto]

It is always a pleasure to have you.

[Matt]

Indeed. And we do have a very interesting item, Trotter. Today we're talking about a very kingly gift in the form of the new limited edition of the Hobbit from the Folio Society. And I, I think the thing that took me by surprise, I, I knew that this thing would sell out. I had a good feeling it would sell out quickly, but it sold out in less than 10 minutes. Were you as surprised as I was?

[Andrew Ferguson]

I think it was about 13 minutes and yes, I was actually. I didn't think it would sell out that, that quickly. The Lord the Rings, the equivalent edition, sold out in 34 hours.

[Alan Sisto]

Wow.

[Andrew Ferguson]

So this is a lot quicker. Yeah, but the, the interests in, in the Hobbits. I think obviously it goes to show that there's still more interest in just in the Hobbit than there is in some other Tolkien's books. Just in, in how quick it was that it sold out.

[Alan Sisto]

That's fair.

[Andrew Ferguson]

And the, the other thing about it as well is that people knew what they were getting this time as well because they'd already seen what the Lord of the Rings was going to look like.

[Alan Sisto]

That's true.

[Andrew Ferguson]

So I think people had a good idea and this matches very well with the other books, with the other editions.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I like your answer. I find that it's a lot less skeptical than mine, which suggests that many people bought it because they saw the incredible acceleration of second hand prices of the Lord of the Rings copies and thought, I'm going to get me a piece of that pie.

[Andrew Ferguson]

But I think some people did do it, that did do that as well.

[Matt]

Yes.

[Andrew Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I can't blame them. I mean, you know, it's, it's how it works.

[Matt]

That's, that's, that's, it's unfortunate. But yeah, there were listings on ebay almost immediately afterwards.

[Andrew Ferguson]

There were actually some before.

[Matt]

Oh, there are some before.

[Alan Sisto]

We call that optimism. Right.

[Matt]

That is optimism.

[Alan Sisto]

I'd love to see the folks who put listings up for like double or triple the price not be able to get their copy in those 10 minutes. That would be great.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, for those who maybe haven't delved as deeply into the collecting world as you have, and even to some extent as much as I have, what is it about this edition Trotter that had folks clamoring to buy a copy of this book at a pretty hefty price tag, let's face it, of about $850?

[Andrew Ferguson]

Well, I think it's really. It's like. It's largely the production quality of. Of the book. It. When you talk about deluxe editions, there's different levels of deluxe. And in the, in the Tolkien world, there's. There's a deluxe and then there's something called a super deluxe.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Andrew Ferguson]

The Children of Huron, which you both now have of that one is a super deluxe and that's a full lever book.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Andrew Ferguson]

But the closest really that the Folio Society have done is a. Is a limited lever, full, large size.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Andrew Ferguson]

Book. And the advantage of a large size book is the sheer size of the illustrations.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Andrew Ferguson]

And really it's the illustrations. For me, the fact that they're so nicely done. They're tipped in tip two means that their pages are printed separately on different paper and then they're sort of glued on onto the paper. So they're not. They're not just printed with the rest of the book.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[Andrew Ferguson]

And those pages, the illustrations, I think. Well, Matt's obviously seen his copy. They're absolutely brilliant. If you compare it with the ordinary version of the book and look at these illustrations, it's more like looking at the original ones that Alan Lee did.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[Andrew Ferguson]

They're actually like prints. You could cut them out. I don't know if people would do this and stick them on the wall.

[Alan Sisto]

I don't know why you would spending that much money on a book.

[Andrew Ferguson]

But it's an expensive way to do it. But you could.

[Alan Sisto]

You're very right, though. I mean, the art pieces alone, you know, having them tipped in like that, you know, printed on special art paper rather than on the same paper in the book being, you know, hand inserted onto the pages really does make for a striking read. Know as you're going through. And there are a lot of them, aren't there?

[Andrew Ferguson]

Yes, there are. And there's some new ones. I I, I think when, when Matt was talking to Alan, he said that he'd redone some of them as well. Had he?

[Matt]

The illustrations? Yeah. So there's a, a couple in particular that he talked to me about that he had redone. One was when Bilbo meets Gollum. And so if you compare that to the previous illustrated editions, that one's red, different, totally redone. And another one is, is of the company kind of going out into the wilderness. And he told this great story when I talked to him. Yeah. So when Allan was doing that big batch of illustrations for the Hobbit a while back, he, he got to where he was right up against the deadline. He said it was like 3:00 in the morning, the day before they were due and he, he was just, he was trying to get one more, get one more done. And so he's, he wash is what he said. And if, if it stops, if he stops partway through, it leaves like a really hard line. So he has to keep going until he's done with this particular wash. And the power went out. And so he's sitting there, he's sitting there for like four or five minutes just like painting in the dark, you know, and like praying for the, the lights to come back on, which they did. And so he was able to finish it, but he, it was really rushed. It was, you know, not a lot of detail there. And so that, that was one he said, his exact phrase was. It always niggled him how that was that that was done in such a hurry. So he went back and you, you put him side by side and it's apparent, you know, how much more effort and, and time. Not to say he didn't put effort in, but, but how much more time he had this time around. And then obviously we also get the, the, the new Rivendell that comes as a separate art print as well.

[Andrew Ferguson]

Yeah, that's lovely as well. The, the Riverdale art print people might have been put off by the price of this because it was, it is a kingly gift. It was very, very expensive. But one of the nice things that came out of the, the, the Folio Lord of the Rings books was that obviously Harper Collins looked at this and thought, well, if they can sell them for that, well, we can do something very similar. And they did. Recently they've just done a, a box set of three with the same illustrations pretty much by Alan Lee. And it's not been confirmed, but I think it's a fairly safe bet that the Hobbit will appear in the same format.

[Alan Sisto]

I'd be shocked if it wasn't from Harper columns.

[Andrew Ferguson]

And I also think that might see the Silmarillion in this format as well.

[Alan Sisto]

I would love to see society.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I wonder whether they'll, they'll, you know, go to Ted Naismith, who's famously done the silmarillion illustrated editions before and whose work is, is stunning for that.

[Andrew Ferguson]

Somebody asked Alan if he would do it and he said, well, no, really, that's Ted's area and Ted has done all the illustrations already, so it makes.

[Alan Sisto]

Much more sense to go to him than to.

[Andrew Ferguson]

Yeah. Than to ask Alan.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, he does such a great job with those grand sort of landscapes, you know, the, the, the almost mythic, you know. And Alan Lee does such a great job of like maybe architecture and, and characters in a journey and things like that. So it'll be really neat to see if they do a Silmarillion. But that, speaking of that Lord of the Rings edition that you mentioned from HarperCollins, their, their deluxe edition, the quarter leather bound, the blue set that just recently came out, we did a kingly gifts on that with Don Marshall several weeks back. And yeah, I'll be shocked if there isn't a similar Hobbit edition that uses these same images. But of course it'll be a standard bookshelf size version. Like you said earlier, Andrew, having it in this format and you're not going to be traveling with this. These are coffee table sized books and I mean they're about as big as a coffee table.

[Andrew Ferguson]

You don't want to drop it on your foot.

[Alan Sisto]

No, you do not.

[Andrew Ferguson]

It would hurt.

[Alan Sisto]

It would definitely hurt. Yeah. The art pieces are gorgeous at that scale. No doubt. Yeah.

[Matt]

I love the size of this book. Like the fact that it's oversized like this.

[Alan Sisto]

I think that's, it's what, about 14 inches tall, right? It's like 14 by 10 or something like that.

[Andrew Ferguson]

Well, Folio Society obviously does come from the word folio and I think these are a bit smaller. I think folio is actually a bigger size than this, but it's not far off a folio. And again, for coffee table books, but, and for art books, which really, this is, this is, this is the perfect size for it, for, for an art, for the art pieces.

[Alan Sisto]

Agreed.

[Matt]

Yeah. Now obviously our, our minds turn to the illustrations pretty quickly there and I, you know, I think we're all, all of us in this conversation are suckers for illustrated editions as they, as they come out. It's like illustrated by Tolkien. Yep. That sounds good, Alan Lee. Yep. Okay, let's get that too. But Trotter, what can you tell us about kind of the, the finer details of, of this book as, as far as, you know, the COVID material, the binding, paper quality, all that, all those good things?

[Andrew Ferguson]

Well, it's a cloth on the front, but it has, and it's quarter bound in leather, so the, the spine is, is all leather with, with silver. Silver text. Limited inside. So actually has, and it goes into enormous detail inside on how it's made. Yeah, there's a lot of information on, on what it was done. It's limited to a thousand copies. They're all signed by Alan Lee.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Andrew Ferguson]

Which is one of the things about limited editions is really if you're a collector, you actually want it to be, have a number inside it and you.

[Alan Sisto]

To be truly limited.

[Andrew Ferguson]

Yeah, you're truly limited.

[Alan Sisto]

And these are exactly. A special edition is one thing, but calling it a limited edition when you are going to just reprint thousands and thousands of copies, it doesn't mean it really is limited. Duh.

[Andrew Ferguson]

No. And Harper Collins have done that in the past.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Andrew Ferguson]

Which these won't be. This will only be a thousand copies of this.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Andrew Ferguson]

And the paper, I just find it's just fantastically nice paper, as Matt says. It's, it's really nice to sit down and actually have this to read. I don't normally read these really expensive books, but I'm thinking about reading this one because I just like it so much.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

The same with the Lord of the Rings. It's, you know, it's so good to look at the, the visual contrast, you know, as you're reading the text, it's nice and easy to read. It's, you know, nice margins, nice spacing. Everything's visually attractive on the page. Yeah, yeah.

[Andrew Ferguson]

So obviously if you do have the Lord of the Rings, this complements it very well. This is actually. Well, it's designed to complement it and it does.

[Matt]

Yeah, absolutely. I'm sure anyone who bought that Lord of the Rings was like, well, now I have to get the Hobbit because it matches.

[Andrew Ferguson]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. That might explain the other reason, one of the other reasons I should say, why it sold out so quickly. And I believe with the Lord of the Rings, was it also a thousand or was that 1500?

[Andrew Ferguson]

Yes, it was. No, it's a thousand. They're both a thousand.

[Alan Sisto]

Yep. So everybody who bought that is going to want this and that might explain why it went so quickly.

[Matt]

All right, so obviously, you know, we're, we're all blown away by the colored illustrations that are throughout the book. You know, we talked about the fantastic quality of those prints, but I have to say I think the pencil sketches throughout the book are really fantastic. And those were actually caught me even more off guard because I was surprised by the size of them. I, I mean I'm looking at an image it right now that takes up half of one page and like a quarter of the next. It's Bilbo and the Dwarves being carried away by the eagles and I love it.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt]

So what, what about you guys? What are, what are your favorite elements of the book?

[Andrew Ferguson]

Well, my favorite character in the, in the Lord of the Rings and in the Hobbit is Gollum. And there's some great pictures of him in here. It's absolutely brilliant. Including. There's a really nice. Well, well, I don't say nice. There's a really horrible picture. That's what you want over Golem you don't want.

[Alan Sisto]

It's well executed.

[Andrew Ferguson]

It's, well, absolutely horrible in it. Which is exactly what you want of him creeping about in his cave. Yeah. And it's a, it's a, a pencil drawing by Alan. It's absolutely brilliant. Yeah, he's really, really good.

[Alan Sisto]

It's amazing to see how he can sketch out something like that, you know, in minutes, it seems. You know, he just.

[Andrew Ferguson]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. His talent is unequal.

[Andrew Ferguson]

They're all like. And even. He's even done edging around the color plates. They're nice as well. So each of the color plates has an edge around it. Yeah. I really think from an illustrated point of view, Alan Lee has sort of excelled himself on this.

[Alan Sisto]

That's saying something because he's done a lot of amazing work, especially with the Hobbit. You know, his, his illustrated Hobbits have, have always been beautiful to look at. Now before we let you go, Trotter, I want to ask not just specifically about this book especially because now it's going to be hard to find anyway. But what advice would you give to new collectors out there? What kind of things should they be on the lookout for or maybe on the lookout to avoid? Just kind of general collector's advice?

[Andrew Ferguson]

Well, I think at the moment, obviously collecting Tolkien, it can be quite an expensive hobby because talking so popular. But on the other hand, though, there are some areas of Tolkien that you, that you can collect and the, the two that I would suggest at the moment really is possibly to look at paperbacks. You can get a really, really nice paperback collection of talking and fairly complete as well, without having to spend vast amounts of money on it. And the other one is also to look at illustrations. We're only talking about this, but other illustrators, not just the main three and particular non English editions, because some of the illustrators in that are absolutely brilliant.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Andrew Ferguson]

So they're the two areas, I think if, if I like, if you were a new talking collector, they're the two areas I'd look at. It's illustrators and let's say paperbacks to get a really nice collection.

[Alan Sisto]

Excellent advice. There are some really beautiful paperbacks out there, no doubt about it.

[Matt]

Well, it's always great to chat about the Hobbit and beautiful editions of Tolkien's books, but it's time we get back to tales of a more unfinished variety, I should say. Trotter, thanks for joining us, Alan and I, we're gonna get back to Cirion and Eorl and learn about some beacons.

[Alan Sisto]

The Haloferion was the highest of the beacons, and like Aelanach, the next in height appeared to stand up alone out of a great wood, for behind it there was a deep cleft, the Dark Firiendale, in the long northward spur of Ered Nimrise, of which it was the highest point. Out of the cleft it rose like a sheer wall, but its outer slopes, especially northwards, were long and nowhere steep, and trees grew upon them almost to its summit. As they descended, the trees became ever more dense, especially along the marring stream, which rose in the cleft and northwards out into the plain through which the stream flowed into the Ent Wash. The Great West Road passed through a long cutting in the wood to avoid the wet land beyond its northern eaves. But this road had been made in ancient days, and after the departure of Isildur, no tree was ever felled in the Firian Wood, except only by the beacon wardens, whose task it was to keep open the Great Road and the path towards the summit of the hill. This path turned from the road near to its entrance into the wood and wound its way up to the end of the trees, beyond which there was an ancient stairway of stone leading to the beacon site, a wide circle leveled by those who had made the stair. The beacon wardens were the only inhabitants of the wood, save wild beasts. They housed in lodges in the trees near the summit, but they did not stay long unless held there by foul weather, and they came and went in terms of duty. For the most part they were glad to return home, not because of the peril of the wild beasts, nor did any Evil shadow out of dark days lie upon the wood. But beneath the sounds of the winds, the cries of birds and beasts, or at times the noise of horsemen riding in haste upon the road, there lay a silence. And a man would find himself speaking to his comrades in a whisper as if he expected to hear the echo of a great voice that called from far away and long ago. I love that passage. I love that. That is such a cool. I mean, ooh, the tension that you can feel there for these beacon wardens. But we'll get to that.

[Matt]

Yeah, definitely. Now we skip the note that Christopher gives us at the very beginning here, explaining why the story of Kyrion and Eorl is opened with a long note on the Haloferian.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, at least he gives us this right up front, remember? I mean, a few episodes back we were like, what's the story of On Deher, Artemir and Faramir doing in the Chronicle of Kyrian? And E. How is that related? Oh, yeah, now you tell us. Great.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah. Now we jump right in and discover that the Halifurion, which is the westernmost of the beacons of Gondor on the north side of the White Mountains, is the highest of the beacons.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, I think it might help us a bit geography wise, sort of a map digression, I suppose, is not a map episode to remind ourselves of the beacons and where Halofirien is in the White Mountains.

[Matt]

Yeah, we get a bit of a description from Gandalf in the Lord of the Rings as he points out the beacons to Pippin during their high speed ride to Minas Tirith, saying, the beacons of Gondor are alight, calling for aid. War is kindled. See, there is the fire on Amandine and the flame of Elenok. And there they go speeding west. Nardol, Erilas, Minrimon, Calenad and the Haloferian on the borders of Rohan.

[Alan Sisto]

So that is the order as you go west from Minas Tirith towards Rohan. But let's take a brief look at the others on the way in a much later footnote here in this story, and we'll get to the footnote in a couple of more weeks. We read that the first beacon as you leave Minas Tirith, Amondine, the Silent Hill, was perhaps the oldest, with the original function of a fortified outpost of Minas Tirith, from which its beacon could be seen.

[Matt]

The next one west is Aelanach. It's also mentioned in that Same footnote footnote 51 if you want to check it out early it is identified as probably an alien name, not Sindarin, Numenorean or common speech. It was the highest point of the Druidan Forest and it could be seen far to the west. And its function in the days of the beacons was to transmit the warning of Amandine.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. Then we get to Nardal or Fire Hilltop and it's described as on the end of a high ridge. Originally part of the Druidon Forest, but long deprived of trees by masons and couriers who came up the Stonewain Valley. Nardal was manned by a guard who also protected the quarries. It was well stored with fuel and at need a great blaze could be lit visible on a clear night even as far as the last beacon Haloferion, some 120 miles to the westward. So that also gives you an idea of distance and scale.

[Matt]

Yeah. Next up is Erelas and for that we have to look to the index here in Unfinished Tales where we read that the name is Sindarin in style but has no meaning in the language and is probably a pre Numenorean name. Then we go to Minrimon, which is simply Peak of the Rimmon, which again in the index is described simply as a group of crags.

[Alan Sisto]

Next up is Calenad. The index says that the name probably meant green space with reference to the flat turf covered crown of the hill. Now we'll cover even more about these beacon hills, especially the word nerdery in the P5 for this episode. Finally, of course we get to Halofarian and with that we'll come back to the text that we read.

[Matt]

It's the tallest in like the second beacon, a Lanak. That's the one in the Drudan Forest. By the way, it looks like it's standing on its own in the middle of a forest.

[Alan Sisto]

And that's basically because, you know, it's kind of standing on its own in the middle of a forest. I mean it looks like that because it is. Basically there's a spur of the mountains running to the north. Right. The White Mountains are primarily an east west range. So there's a spur running to the north and then there's a big cutting in that spur. So it leaves the hill of Haloferion sort of standing on its own.

[Matt]

Yeah. While the slope to the mountainside is steep, the slopes going down to the north are not and it's covered with trees nearly to the top. But this forest, the Furian Wood, surrounds the Maring stream on both the west and east sides as it flows from the mountains down toward the Entwash.

[Alan Sisto]

Right now, the Maring Stream cuts the forest then into an east and west halves. Well, not really halves, but east and west portions. The Great West Road then cuts it in two, north and south. So you've got the stream running north, south and you've got the road running east, west. So it kind of cuts the forest into these four parts. Remember that the Mering Stream is, after all this the border between Rohan or the East Fold and Gondor, the region of Anorien.

[Matt]

And another reminder, the Great West Road is the road that runs from Minas Tirith to Edoras then to the fords of Isen before it becomes the North South Road crosses the Grey Flood at Tharbad and heads all the way to Fornost.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a long road. It's known as the Greenway. When it reaches Bree, of course, you probably remember that. And it is that same road that goes ever on and on originally built to link the two Numenorean kingdoms in exile, Gondor and Arnor.

[Matt]

But it's an old road, and no one cuts trees in this forest anymore. Not since Isildur left Gondor in the year two of the Third Age.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Nobody's cutting down trees and putting up a parking lot here, that's for sure. Nobody except the wardens, though, thankfully, they're not putting up parking lots.

[Andrew Ferguson]

Now.

[Alan Sisto]

With that, though, let's shift our perspective to those wardens and to the hilltop itself.

[Matt]

Yeah. It says the warden's job was to keep the road open along the path to the summit. And that summit path began at the point where the road entered the Firian Wood and continued past where the trees ended leading to a stone stairway to the site of the beacon.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, nobody lived in the wood and even the wardens didn't stay long. Right? They'd stay in their lodges that were near the summit but below the tree line presumably just to make them a little more comfortable to live in. They would rotate shifts. It doesn't say how long, but honestly, I can't imagine these were more than a few weeks at a time. I don't know. I mean, it did kind of pop into my head, like, I wonder how long they're here. Are they here for a week? Are they here for a few days? Are they here for a season? But I can't imagine it's more than two to four weeks or something like that before they rotate out for the team.

[Matt]

Yeah, I know that. We certainly wondered that. Or I did, anyway, when watching the films where the beacons are literally on the peak of the mountains.

[Alan Sisto]

I know, which is crazy.

[Matt]

How long are those people there?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah, you would never. First of all, it'd be way too hard to get people up there, let alone fuel for the fires. And second, that's where the weather's going to be. You can't have them so high up that they're going to be, you know, covered by clouds. You've got to have them further down on the foothills so that the messages can be transmitted. But, you know, it's all right because the Howard Shore score was so good. I didn't even.

[Matt]

It looks so cool though.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

On the snow capped mountains and the flames popping up like it looks. It's one of those cinema things where you just go with it because it looks cool.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. It's so iconic. Yeah.

[Matt]

But yeah, I always kind of wonder, like, what if old Gerald keels over and then nobody's there to light the beacon, you know?

[Alan Sisto]

Well, that's why you have teams. Right. I mean, it sounds like the wardens that were there were plural all the time. Right. There was never just one guy.

[Matt]

No, not. Not one 80 year old guy that's been there stationed there for 60 years, two weeks from retirement. Now, interestingly, it wasn't the danger of the wild animals that made them happy to be able to leave. No, no, there was an eerie silence that lay under all the other sounds they might hear. And that's such a great Tolkienian way of describing this.

[Alan Sisto]

I know, isn't it? I mean, that whole last part of the sentence, last part of the reading, I should say, is all one very long sentence. That it wasn't because of the peril, it wasn't because of evil shadow beneath the sound of the winds, the cries of birds and beasts, or at times the noise of horsemen. And it just keeps going and it's so rich and it builds this beautiful tension. I can sort of imagine that, you know, the idea of this sort of almost oppressive silence. So much so that you feel like you have to whisper to the people you're with, like, hey, we need to go set that beacon on fire.

[Matt]

Do you hear that oppressive silence?

[Alan Sisto]

Well, no, that's the point. I specifically do not hear the oppressive silence, but I like that the silence is specifically. And this is weird, like these people are hearing the silence and they speak as though they're expecting to hear the echo of a great voice from sometime far in the past. Fantastic. Right? I mean, it's so building up to what we find in terms of the story of this place. And folks, if you have not read this before, unlike the Lord of the Rings, I'm going to expect that some of you have not read these stories. So we're trying not to spoil this for you. But it is right now building up to a really neat reveal about what's going on at the top of Haloferian, and we will get to that eventually, but we do have to get to an ad break first. Matt When I think about businesses that are just blowing up, you know, selling through the roof like Allbirds Shoes or Gymshark where I've bought some stuff, the first thing that hits me is that they sell a great product. Or maybe it's a cool brand. But something that people often overlook is the business behind the business that makes selling and for shoppers, buying simple. And for millions of businesses, that business is Shopify.

[Matt]

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[Alan Sisto]

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[Matt]

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[Alan Sisto]

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[Matt]

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[Alan Sisto]

This episode is brought to you by Companion. Iris and Josh seem like the perfect match, but when a weekend getaway turns into a nightmare, Iris realizes that things aren't as perfect as they appear. From the creators of Barbarian and the studio that brought you the Notebook comes a twisted tale of modern romance and the sweet satisfaction of revenge. Companion now playing only in theaters. Rated R under 17. Not admitted without parent now soon we'll get back to the Hill of Awe. But before we do, we want to remind you that there's a lot more talk going on at the Prancing Pony Podcast than just us.

[Matt]

The PPP has an amazing listener community. They're always coming up with great questions and discussions across all our social media spaces. Check out our Common Room on Facebook, our dedicated subreddit, Twitter and more now on Facebook.

[Alan Sisto]

Just look for the Prancing Pony Podcast. Follow the page to get the news and episode drops, but you're going to want to join the group for some really, really great discussions.

[Matt]

Or if you prefer Reddit. Find us there at R Prancingponypod on Twitter and Instagram. We're simply rancingponypod.

[Alan Sisto]

And of course folks, come on. If you want daily Tolkien content, please check out today's Tolkien times on YouTube and all your favorite podcast apps. It's a short format daily show that I've put together. It's got everything from Tolkien Tuesday to Third Age Thursdays. Be sure to check it out at YouTube.com tolkientimes and follow TolkienTimes on all your social media. Well Matt, I don't think we find out in this next passage exactly why the Haloferian is so special, but we do find out that it really is. So if you'll take that next reading.

[Matt]

The name Haloferian meant in the language of the Rohirrim holy mountain. Before their coming. It was known in Sindarin as Amon Anwar, Hill of Awe. For what reason was not known in Gondor, except only as later appeared to the ruling king or steward for the few men who ever ventured to leave the road and wander under the trees, the wood itself seemed reason enough. In the common speech it was called the Whispering Wood. In the great days of Gondor, no beacon was built on the hill, while the Palantiri still maintained communication between Osgiliath and the three towers of the realm without need of messages or signals. In later days, little aid could be expected from the north, as the people of Calenardhon declined. Nor was armed force sent thither as Minas Tirith became more and more hard put to it to hold the line of the Anduin and guard its southern coast. In Anorien, many people still dwelt and had the task of guarding the northern approaches, either out of Calenardhon or across the Anduin at Caire Andros for communication with them. The three oldest beacons, Amon Din Eilanak and Minrimon, were built and maintained. But though the line of the Mering Stream was fortified between the impassable marshes of its confluence with the Entwash and the bridge where the road passed westward out of the Firion Wood, it was not permitted that any fort or beacon should be set upon Amon Anwar, and.

[Alan Sisto]

We'Re going to find out a little bit more about why that is as we keep going, but let's go back to the beginning of that passage. As to the peak itself, we learned the meaning of its name in Rohirric. Haloferian.

[Matt]

Sure. Haloferian means holy mountain in Rohirric, or perhaps I should say Old English.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that's about right. Christopher explains in a footnote that it's a modern spelling of the Anglo Saxon word halegfirion. Now, that's not the only modernized spelling of an Old English word. Firienwood is a modernized spelling of Firien Wudu, similarly for Firion Dale as well.

[Matt]

But, and this is actually a really important point, this chronicle is referencing the present day name of the mountain. But at the time of this story, Cirion and Eorl Rohan isn't here yet. So they haven't named the mountain Holy Mountain.

[Alan Sisto]

That's correct. I mean, prior to their arrival, which is still to come in our story, the hill was known in Sindarin as Amon Anwar, which means Hill of Awe, which is very different from amonkittens, which is Hill of Awe. Anyway, sorry, I mean Hill of Awe, it's just one of those things. I had to throw something in there. I'm sorry. Amon, you know, from many other places. Right. Amon Hen, Amon Amarth and so on. Anwar, on the other hand, is only identified here, so we'll just have to take Tolkien's word for it.

[Matt]

Yeah. And in the Nature of Middle Earth, we read that it had an even older name in Sindarin. Fanarthan North Beacon.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Now, why was it called the Hill of Awe? Well, you gotta wait to find that out. The text here doesn't tell us. It just says that the reason was only known to the king or ruling Steward.

[Matt]

Now, of course we know, but we're not going to tell you just yet because we're going to find that out next week.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right.

[Matt]

Just know that for the wardens and any other men who happened to wander through, the reason it was called this was evident just from the weird silence in the forest. The Whispering Wood, we're told.

[Alan Sisto]

Yep, that's right. Now, we also learned that the beacon on Halofirion, or on Amon Anwar, as the case may be, was not originally part of the Beacon Network. Get your breaking news on gbn, Gondor Beacon Network. Because, you see, when the Palantiri were working, you had full communication between Osgiliath and the three Satellite Stones in Minas Ithil, now Minas Morgul, Minas Anor, now Minas Tirith and Orthanc.

[Matt]

And because there really wasn't a point to building the beacons so far west, you know, after all, the folk of Calenardhon weren't numerous and couldn't really send much help to Gondor. And Gondor couldn't help them because they were too Busy holding the Anduin and fighting off Qu Corsairs in the south.

[Alan Sisto]

So, no, I will not accept your friend request is basically what they're saying.

[Matt]

Yeah, basically.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. What's the point? I mean, sure, there were folks in Anorien and they guarded the approach to Gondor from Calenardhon and from the Anduin. But for that, they only needed those three easternmost beacons.

[Matt]

Yeah. And those are Amandine, Aelanak and Minramon, which are also the three oldest.

[Alan Sisto]

Right. Interesting footnote here tells us that the full system, including Halofirion, was only in place after the Rohirrim settled here. Quote for its principal function was to warn the Rohirrim that Gondor was in danger. Or, more rarely, the reverse.

[Matt]

Finally, back then, the line of the Mering Stream was defended. Putting a defensive structure or even a beacon on Amon Anwar was not permitted. And we'll see why eventually.

[Alan Sisto]

I know we keep teasing that. Yeah.

[Matt]

Next episode. Yeah, we're really teasing. We've got to come through big time on this next episode.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, I think we will. Yeah.

[Matt]

Yeah. But for now, let's come through big time in this next reading.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, the problem with that, Matt, is that I have to read this. And so coming through big time, that's.

[Matt]

Our best shot at coming through. Let's.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay, if you say so. I'm not sure. All right. When the war was over, men wondered in what way the steward would honor Eorl and reward him and expected that a great feast would be held in Minas Tirith at which this would be revealed. But Cirion was a man who kept his own counsel. As the diminished army of Gondor made its way south. He was accompanied by Eorl and an ered of the Riders of the North. When they came to the Meringue Stream Cirion turned to Eorl and said to Menswonder, farewell now, Eorl, son of Leol. I will return to my home where much needs to be set in order. Calenardhon, I commit to your care for this time. If you are not in haste to return to your own realm in three months time, I will meet you here again and then we will take counsel together. I will come, Eorl answered. And so they parted. As soon as Cirion came to Minas Tirith he summoned some of his most trusted servants. Go now to the Whispering Wood, he said. There you must reopen the ancient path to Amon, Anwar. It is long overgrown, but the entrance is still marked by a standing stone beside the road. At that point where the northern region of the wood closes in upon it. The path turns this way and that but at each turn there is a standing stone. Following these, you will come at length to the end of the trees and find a stone stair that leads on upwards. I charge you to go no further. Do this work as swiftly as you may and then return to me. Fell no trees. Only clear a way by which a few men on foot can easily pass upwards. Leave the entrance by the road still shrouded so that none that use the road may be tempted to use the path before I come there myself. Tell no one whither you go or what you have done. If any ask, say only that the lord's steward wishes for a place to be made ready for his meeting with the Lord of the Riders.

[Matt]

Now, in the short paragraph we skipped we come back to the current time of the story with Cirion as steward. And it's a story we just wrapped up last week. The attack of the Balchoth the ride of Eorl and the rescue of Gondor at the field of Celebrant. And with the battle completed and the Balchoth and the Orcs defeated the question on everyone's mind is how will Cirion reward Eorl?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, it's not whether Kyrion will reward Eorl. I mean, everybody knows that Eorl deserves a reward of some sort for coming to their rescue.

[Matt]

A pizza party at the least.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. A big party. If nothing else, he's got to get a party. And I love that there's speculation that Kyrion would make a big announcement at this. At a party, right? At a big feast in Minas Tirith. But the text then says that he's a man who kept his own counsel. You know, he's quiet. He's. I see this also as a little bit of humility but he's also very determined. Like, I'm going to do what I'm going to do. He'll listen to his advisors, but he's not going to talk about what his own decision making process is.

[Matt]

And we find Cirion leading his forces back to Minas Tirith. And by forces, I mean much smaller army than he probably left with thanks to the losses in battle. And he's heading south. And as he does that, Eorl and an aorid of his riders are keeping him company.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Now, before we go much further I want to take a little bit of a closer look at Ered. Right. We glanced briefly at Eohera last week. That's horse host. That was the entire force of his group. But I think we should take a few minutes in the footnote to this part of the story to look more in depth. Now, Christopher Tolkien explains that according to a note on the ordering of the Rohirrim, the Ered had no precisely fixed number. But in Rohan, it was only applied to riders fully trained for war, men serving for a term, or in some cases permanently in the king's host. So maybe no precisely fixed number, but it wasn't just anybody called up to fight. It was fully trained riders, whether they were serving for a period of time or permanently.

[Matt]

Yeah. And as to the size of an eored, Christopher continues, any considerable body of such men riding as a unit, in exercise or on service was called an Eored. But after the recovery of the Rohirrim and the reorganization of their forces in the days of King Folcuina, a hundred years before the War of the Ring, a full Eored in battle order was reckoned to contain not less than 120 men, including the captain, and to be 100th part of the full muster of the riders of the Mark, not including those of the king's household. But that's in the days of King Folcuina long, long from now.

[Alan Sisto]

That's true. And in fact, that same footnote tells us about the size of an aorad, that the Ered spotted by the three hunters was a proper ered, originally containing 120 riders. If you remember, Legolas counted them, saying, there are 105, yellow is their hair and bright are their spears. And then he saw that there were three empty saddles. Later, eomer tells Aragorn, 15 of my men I lost and 12 horses, alas. So, yep, a perfect 120.

[Matt]

But that idea that an eorid was 1% of the full muster, that 12,000 men would ride forth, was a nice idea, but just that, the note explains, no such host, of course, had ever ridden altogether to war beyond the mark.

[Alan Sisto]

12. I mean, I'm already picturing 120 guys on horseback, including the captain, and that's an aorad, and that's a terrifying force. But to imagine that there's a hundred a Reds, that's a lot. That is a lot. Now, how big is this a Red? Truth is, we don't know, right? I mean, that precisely fixed number of 120 doesn't come into play until the time of King Fulcuina. So we just know that it's a considerable body, but it is no precisely fixed number. It does consist, though, of fully trained Riders. Now, we didn't read this last week. Instead we just mentioned that Euhera is a word meaning horse host. But Christopher does explain more. The full muster of the cavalry was called Eohera before he explains the linguistic root. These words, and also eotheod, are, of course, Anglo Saxon in form since the true language of Rohan is everywhere. Thus translated, they contain as their first element eoth. Horse. Eored is a recorded Anglo Saxon word its second element derived from rad riding. In Eohera, the second element is hera, meaning host or army. Eotheod has theod, people, or land and is used both of the riders themselves and of their country.

[Matt]

Now back to Cirion and Eorl. They get to the marrying stream and Cirion parts ways with Eorl. But he does so in real style. He explains that he has to go back to Minas Tirith but that he's leaving this land, the entire land of Calenardhon which is pretty sizable, it is in Eorles hands, you know. So so long as he isn't in a hurry, you know, to get home.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, exactly. Never mind that we'll eventually make this your home, but that's.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

He also says that he'll come back to this spot, right? The meringue stream which is the border between Anorian and Calenardhon eventually the border between Gondor and Rohan. Come back here in three months and we'll catch up then.

[Matt]

Yeah, fast forward a few days. When Cirion makes it back to Minas Tirith and he's getting down to business, he's taking care of some stuff and he's got some instructions for his most trusted servants.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, why the most trusted ones? Well, as you can clearly tell, there's some secrecy involved here. Don't tell anybody where you're going or what you're doing. And as we'll see next week the mere existence of this place is not widely known. The instructions for these trusted servants go to the Furion Wood. That's the Whispering Wood near Hal to Furion, reopen the path to the Hill of Awe. And he gives them instructions or guidance, sort of as how to find the road, how to stay on the road. Makes it very clear, do not go any further than the Stone Stair.

[Matt]

And he wants the job done quickly and quietly. Then come back and let him know that the job is done. And interestingly, don't change the entrance to the path. No one should be tempted to use this, you know, before Kyrion shows up. He says, don't. Don't chop down Any trees.

[Alan Sisto]

Not only don't chop down any trees, because we know there's some sort of. A little bit of a taboo about that, but also keep the entrance to the path shrouded, which is an interesting choice of words. Let's talk about that level of secrecy. First of all, this isn't going to be a road that a lot of people use in the first place. There is no communication with the kingdom of Arnor because there's no Arnor. And, you know, the only people that are going to be going here are going to be communicating with what is still the Gondorian realm of Calenardhon. But there's not a lot of people there. So, okay, people might use this road. Not very many. Why do we want to keep them off this path? Why do we want to prevent them from seeing that it's there and then exploring.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

What's the point of the secrecy? Why are we trying to make sure nobody knows about this place?

[Matt]

Yeah, I think because of the importance of what is there, you know, not like strategically or anything like that, but.

[Alan Sisto]

Just more symbolically and.

[Matt]

Yeah, symbolically.

[Alan Sisto]

Kind of reverentially.

[Matt]

Yeah, reverentially. Yeah. I wonder if maybe it's not so much concern of people knowing about it, but, you know, more so what enemies might do to this reverential place. You know, it's not. Maybe it's not keep. Maybe it's not so much keeping it, you know, from. From other Gondorians, but more so, like, the more the word spreads, the more this. This area that is now, like, in. In the middle of a depopulated area of Gondor, you know, it's less protected now than ever.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, the beacon wardens aren't going to be able to withstand an attack, that's for sure.

[Matt]

Right. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Interesting. Yeah. I mean, obviously we'll. We'll be able to talk a little bit more about that and more openly when we.

[Matt]

It's very hard to talk about it. I know what it is.

[Alan Sisto]

I want to say that it's because. Yeah. But I can't tell you that. I will say, though, in a way, this makes me think nowhere near the scale, but, you know, the way that in Numenor, the Men Al Tarma was a sacred place. That's really what's going on here. This is a sacred place, and there's a connection to the Meneltarma that we'll talk about. I think more at length next week.

[Matt]

You don't want teenagers loitering and stuff, you know?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, you're right. You don't want. You don't want anybody going up there. You don't want anybody, you know, you don't want skateboarders going up there and deciding they're going to grind on this, like, nice stone rail that they find. Yeah, yeah, yeah, none of that.

[Matt]

Get out of here, you hooligans.

[Alan Sisto]

Hooligans. I love it. So, of course these most trusted servants are going to have to sign some NDAs. They don't tell anybody where they're going. They don't get to tell anybody what they're doing, but they are going to get the job done, hopefully. So speaking of getting a job done, we're going to take a quick break and we'll come right back. This episode is brought to you by Amazon. Sometimes the most painful part of getting sick is the getting better part. Waiting on hold for an appointment, sitting in crowded waiting rooms, standing in line at the pharmacy. That's painful. Amazon One Medical and Amazon Pharmacy remove those painful parts of getting better with things like 247 virtual visits and prescriptions delivered to your door thanks to Amazon Pharmacy and Amazon One Medical Healthcare just got less painful. Folks, if you are enjoying the ppp, please consider supporting the show by joining the Fellowship of the Podcast. That's what gives me the time and the resources that I need to work on making the show better every season to just pour all my time into it. When you join, you get the best discord community around. That includes live episode recordings, it includes hangouts every month. You can also get episode postscripts, ad free episodes, free merch, and a lot more.

[Matt]

You can also become part of our Questions after Nightfall episodes or even join us as a guest in the north wing. So Please go to patreon.com prancingponypod to show your support and join the Fellowship of the Podcast.

[Alan Sisto]

And of course you can always help us out by giving us a rating and review on Apple Podcast and a rating on Spotify. And please recommend us to your friends in the meantime. Matt, would you pick up where we left off?

[Matt]

Sure thing.

[Alan Sisto]

What happened after all that work was.

[Matt]

Done in due time, Cirion set out with Hallas, his son and the Lord of Dol Amroth and two others of his council. And he met EORL at the crossing of the meringue stream. With EORL were three of his chief captains. Let us go now to the place that I have prepared, said Cirion. Then they left a guard of riders at the bridge and turned back into the tree shadowed road and came to the standing stone There they left their horses and another strong guard of soldiers of Gondor. And Cirion, standing by the stone, turned to his companions and said, I will go now to the hill of Orr. Follow me if you will. With me shall come an esquire and another with Eorl to bear our arms. All others shall go unarmed as witnesses of our words and deeds. In that high place the path has been made ready though none have used it since I came here with my father. Then Cirion led Eorl into the trees and others followed in order. And after they had passed the first of the inner stones their voices were stilled and they walked warily as if unwilling to make any sound. So they came at last to the upper slopes of the hill and passed through a belt of white birches and saw the stone stair going up to the summit. After the shadow of the wood the sun seemed hot and bright for it was the month of Urime. Yet the crown of the hill was green as if the year were still in Lotese. At the foot of the stair there was a small shelf or cove made in the hillside with low turf banks. There the company sat for a while until Cirion rose and from his esquire took the white wand of office and the white mantle of the stewards of Gondor. Then, standing on the first step of the stair he broke the silence saying in a low but clear I will now declare what I have resolved with the authority of the stewards of the kings to offer to Eor, son of Laod, Lord of the Eothed, in recognition of the valor of his people and of the help beyond hope that he brought to Gondor in time of dire need. To Eor I will give in free gift all the great land of Cullenarthon from Anduin to Isen. There, if he will, he shall be king and his heirs after him and his people shall dwell in freedom while the authority of the stewards endures until the great king returns. No bond shall be laid upon them other than their own laws and will save in this only they shall live in perpetual friendship with Gondor and its enemies shall be their enemies while both realms endure. But the same bond shall be laid also on the people of Gondor.

[Alan Sisto]

I love that. I absolutely love that. That is so beyond anything anybody would have expected. But we'll get to the gift itself. Let's go back to the beginning of that passage. So Cirion goes with a small but clearly very high ranking delegation to return three months later to meet with Eorl, his son the next steward, that's Halas. He's a young man of 30. At this time he won't be inheriting stewardship for another 57 years. He also goes along with the unnamed Lord of Dol Amroth. Now he is the eighth Lord of Dol Amroth since Galador, who was the prince from 2076 to 2129. They remain unnamed until we get to the 19th. And that's Aglahad, Imrahil's great grandfather. So we don't have a clue as to who this guy actually is.

[Matt]

Yeah, and we see that with them are two other members of the Council of Gondor that we don't know who they are. And they meet up with Eorl, who also has a small retinue of his high ranking captains.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. And they also have other people with them, other soldiers, as we'll see. Cirion leads them to the place that I have prepared. And by I have prepared, I mean my most trusted servants carrying out my orders in total secrecy.

[Matt]

Yeah, I like how he takes credit for that.

[Alan Sisto]

Like exactly the place I have prepared. The place I said, go prepare this for me so that I can say I have prepared it. And they leave a few of EORL's riders to stand guard at the bridge. So clearly, like I said, they did bring more than just these high ranking delegations.

[Matt]

Yeah. Then when they reach the standing stone that marks the entrance to the road, they leave some of Cirion's men there.

[Alan Sisto]

I love that. I love how they each left their men at these places to guard. Again, the odds of anything happening, any attack coming, slim to none. Yeah, but they're not going to be coming up to the top of the hill either. So let's put them to work.

[Matt]

Now Cirion explains where they're going and gives a hint of the importance of.

[Alan Sisto]

This place just a little bit. This Hill of Awe. I mean the name alone should suggest to you that there's something important would not be known to the Eotheod as such. So now EORL's gotta be wondering, why is it called the Hill of Awe?

[Matt]

Yeah. And he instructs that each of them can have an esquire to carry their weapons, but the rest need to come up the hill as unarmed witnesses.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, real quickly. Esquire, That's a late Middle English word. It comes to us through Old French from Latin scutarius, meaning shield bearer. So that's why he's going to be able to carry the arms.

[Matt]

Now there'll be witnesses to what we say and do in the High Place. And he also explains that this is a special thing. No one has been here since he came here with his father, Boromir.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Kyrion was 29 years old when his father Boromir became steward in 2477. So it was likely around that time. And if so, it's been 33 years since anybody has come up here.

[Matt]

No wonder it was overgrown and.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, you know, and it couldn't have been much less than, let's say, I think, 27 or 28 years. Because Boromir didn't have a very long time, as Stuart, remember, he died from that wound that he received.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah. Then we find that Kyrion, he leads the way up the path and they walk in silence and they walk carefully. Eventually, they near the top of Amon Anwar and pass through a last grove of birch trees before seeing the stone steps that lead to the very top.

[Alan Sisto]

I want to see this place. Like, there's so many places in Middle Earth that I want to see, but this is one in particular. I just feel like this would be such a well again, though, when you visit it. Right. If you visit it before Rohan comes, like right now. Fantastic. If you visit it later, after some things happen that we'll read about next episode. Well, yeah, anyway, not so much. Maybe a little less dramatic now. We're told that the sun seemed hot because it's the month of Urme. Well, that is the eighth month of the year in the king's reckoning, and it's roughly equivalent to July 24th to August 22nd. So, yeah, it's the middle of summer, it is hot up here, especially once you get out from the trees. But the top of the hill, interestingly, even though it is really hot and sun's blaring is green as though it's springtime, lotese is the fifth month, and that roughly corresponds to April 22nd to May 21st. So, yeah, like spring.

[Matt]

There we go. And they stop at the foot of the stairs where there's a little cove in the hillside. And Kyrion gets up, takes the rod of his stewardship and the mantle, thus signaling what he's about to do is being done in his official capacity as steward of the kingdom of Gondor.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Now, even though this entire group has been completely silent since they left the road, all the way up that mountain path with the standing stones twisting their way up the slope, he finally speaks and the text says quietly but clearly.

[Matt]

And whatever you thought he'd do for aorl. He's doing a lot more than that. This is not just a pizza party, folks.

[Alan Sisto]

This is got some big doing with lemonade. Wow, that's generous, you know. Oh, no way. He's giving us. He's giving us cards to use for. For the video games.

[Matt]

Oh, there we go. There we go.

[Alan Sisto]

You could tell both of us have sons who are of the age where you're like, have parties at.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, Chuck E. Cheese.

[Matt]

Chuck E. Cheese.

[Alan Sisto]

Or, you know, any of those places. So obviously Kyrian has decided this before and now he's stating it out loud for the first time. Right. I am now going to declare what I have decided. And as the steward and in that authority, he is going to offer something to a oral matt. What does he offer?

[Matt]

Yeah, in free gift, he offers all the land of Kali Nardon from the anduin in the east to the isen in the west, man. And yeah, it's a big chunk of land, guys. Yeah, it is riverfront property. There. EORL is offered the authority to be king of this realm and to establish a kingship of his heirs.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. This is not just come here and, you know, you can use it while you're alive and then eorl after you die, your people got to get out of here. No, you can establish your realm here. And this gift is offered essentially in perpetuity. Yes, he does say, while the authority of the stewards endures until the great king returns. But remember, it's already been 460 years since the last king, and the stewards have no intention of ever recognizing an ere isildur. In fact, the footnote to this passage makes it quite clear. This line about until the great king returns is always said in every decision they make. But as the kings have been gone for nearly five centuries, Christopher writes, it had become a formula that few believed would ever come to pass.

[Matt]

Yeah, in episode 350, you and Don looked at appendix A, part one there. It's on the stewards.

[Alan Sisto]

And a one paragraph, subsection four.

[Matt]

It's like lawyers, man.

[Alan Sisto]

It really is. Yeah, there's a lot there.

[Matt]

But you guys read that each new steward indeed took office with the oath to hold rod and rule in the name of the king until he shall return. But these soon became words of ritual little heeded. For the stewards exercised all the power of the kings. And even though there were some of the people who believed a king would return from the ancient line of the north, we read that the ruling stewards hardened Their hearts against the thought of this.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Even more, Don and I looked into the nature of Middle Earth, where we learned that a lot of what the stewards did, the rod, the fact that they didn't wear a crown, the plain banner, you know, the white plain banner that they had, all of that in the name of the king stuff, that was just part of the ritual humility of the ruling stewards. And Tolkien added, I say ritual, and he puts that in little quotes, because it was impossible that any king should return unless he were a descendant of Elendil from Isildur, not Anarion, but from Pelendur onwards, the ruling stewards were determined not to receive any such claimant, but to remain supreme rulers of Gondor.

[Matt]

Yeah. So as good of a steward as Cirion is, he does not anticipate a king ever returning.

[Alan Sisto]

No, no.

[Matt]

But since he can only claim the authority of the stewardship, his limitation has to apply.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. And it's. Why just four episodes ago, when we read about King Eomer, the first king of Rohan from the third line, we read from a later footnote in this story about how King Elessar returned and renewed the bond in that same place with the king of the Rohirrim, Eomer the 18th descended from Eorl because the gift given by Kyrion would need to be confirmed by a king now that a king has returned.

[Matt]

Yeah. And I just love that part, you know, that's so cool.

[Alan Sisto]

What a little touch that is, isn't it?

[Matt]

And that they. They return to the same spot too, even though, like, it doesn't have. As. Again, as we'll discuss next episode, it doesn't have the exact same significance anymore.

[Alan Sisto]

True.

[Matt]

But it has the significance of this is where this happened. So we're.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, it has that historical significance. Right. I mean, it doesn't have that sort of reverence that we'll talk about or get to the reason for, but it definitely has this history there. And I believe that quote about how King Elessar returned and renewed the bond is speaking specifically about the oath that we'll get to next week and how that kind of oath had not been heard.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Since the time of Elendil.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And so for Aragorn to repeat that and to. To take the name of the one in the oath is huge.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

As we'll get to.

[Matt]

As we'll get to that as well.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, next week's going to be great with the oaths.

[Matt]

Oh, now it's. It's worth noting here that this isn't a vassal state or any, you know, subservient relationship. But there is a condition alliance. It's described as perpetual friendship and it's really a mutual support court treaty. You know, this is, this is not a one way street, you know, again, not a vassal state. Gondor owes Rohan just as Rohan owes Gondor.

[Alan Sisto]

I love that. I mean, this is such a neat thing to think through. Like, it's not like, okay, you guys can come here and establish this. But keep in mind you're really just a subsect of Gondor. You're going to be subservient to us. You're going to pay us tribute. But you know, you get this really nice land and you know, it's a lot bigger and a lot more fertile than your land at the sources, the Andoin I know up there. You're. He doesn't do any of the political stuff, right? Yeah, I know that you're dealing with overcrowded stuff and you, you really want some open lands. You can have this land. But, you know, you'll have to give us 10%.

[Matt]

Yeah, there's some conditions, you know.

[Alan Sisto]

No.

[Matt]

Yeah, and I love that he, he puts, he puts it on Gondor as well. He's like, you know, he said like, okay, you guys are in perpetual friendship. You know, you come aid us.

[Alan Sisto]

Our enemies are your enemies. But guess what? Your enemies are our enemies. The same bond is laid on Gondor.

[Matt]

Yeah, he's doing a commitment from the Gondor side as well. Like this is an equal partnership kind of thing.

[Alan Sisto]

It really is neat to see. I love it. And the fact that it goes on for so long is just really, really neat to see the history between these two peoples.

[Matt]

Yeah, right up to, to Theoden fulfilling the oath of eorl. You know, that's what he's doing. But yeah. Well, let's.

[Alan Sisto]

So good.

[Matt]

Continue on with the reading here. Alan. What do you say? Take it away.

[Alan Sisto]

All right. I really love this moment. I mean, it's second only to the oaths which we'll get to next week. But then EORL stood up but remained for some time silent for he was amazed by the great generosity of the gift and the noble terms in which it had been offered. And he saw the wisdom of Cirion both on his own behalf as ruler of Gondor seeking to protect what remained of his realm and as a friend of the Eotheod of whose needs he was aware for they were now grown to a people too numerous for their land in the north and longed to return south to their former home. But they were restrained by the fear of Dol Guldurg. But in Calenardhon they would have room beyond hope and yet be far from the shadows of Mirkwood, yet beyond wisdom and policy. Both Cirion and Eora were moved at that time by the great friendship that bound their peoples together and by the love that was between them as true men. On the part of Cirion the love was that of a wise father old in the cares of the world for a son in the strength and hope of his youth. While in Cirion Eorl saw the highest and noblest man of the world that he knew and the wisest on whom sat the majesty of the kings of men of long ago. At last, when Eorl had swiftly passed all these things through his thought he spoke saying, Lord steward of the great king, the gift that you offer I accept for myself and for my people. It far exceeds any reward that our deeds could have earned if they had not themselves been a free gift of friendship. But now I will seal that friendship with an oath that shall not be forgotten. Then let us go now to the high place, said Kyrion. And before these witnesses take such oaths as seem fitting.

[Matt]

We're hyping it up, folks.

[Alan Sisto]

We are, man. Next week. Next week. Yep.

[Matt]

Now we see here Eorl is rightly amazed. This is an incredibly generous offer by Kyrion. You know, he's. He's also politically astute. And Eorl isn't so naive as to not see that.

[Alan Sisto]

I know. I love that. I mean, he's passing all these things through his thought. The text tells us he realizes. Look, Cirion is trying to protect what's left of Gondor. I mean, it's been 650 years since the defeat of Narmacil II by the Wainriders. That's when Gondor was forced to abandon all of their lands east of the Anduin other than Ithilien itself.

[Matt]

Yeah, and they've not won any of that land back. And their realm continues to be threatened in all directions. Eorl knows that Cirion knows that having a populous nation as an ally protecting one of your major borders would be a huge plus.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, it's a nice thing to have if you have the means. I highly recommend picking one up. And he also knows that Kyrion's aware of the current concerns of him and his people of the Eotheod. He knows that Kyrion's aware that they've outgrown their lands in the North.

[Matt]

Yeah. In fact, we learn here that they'd love to come back to the Middle Vales of Anduin, where they first moved with Marhwini more than 600 years ago. But that would be too close to Dol Guldor, which has grown significantly in strength and evil since their departure. It's not a neighborhood you want to move into.

[Alan Sisto]

No, no. It has definitely gone downhill, for sure. The HOA is terrible. The guy who runs it is just.

[Matt]

Oh, it's the worst.

[Alan Sisto]

You don't want to cross him.

[Matt]

Couldn't get me into an hoa.

[Alan Sisto]

No.

[Matt]

Don't get me started.

[Alan Sisto]

So, in other words, AORL recognizes that this is a win win. Right. Eorl and the Eotheod get new and spacious lands to grow in, safe from the dangers of Dol Guldur, while Cirion and Gondor gain a powerful ally on their northern border.

[Matt]

Yeah. That is so important and so very Tolkien. It's not the political advantages of this relationship that have moved Cirion and Eorl. It's genuine friendship between Gondor and the Eotheod.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. And I think, even more importantly, it's the love shared between these two men themselves. And. And Tolkien gives us the way that each of them views one another. I just got to say, it's beautiful. I love this.

[Matt]

Yeah. Kieran loves Aorol as a wise father, old in the cares of the world, would love his son in the strength and hope of his youth.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, I know there are a million old jokes to be had here. I'm sure if I was bypassed it out of. I know.

[Matt]

Out of respect for your.

[Alan Sisto]

Thank you. I appreciate that, Elder. Pretty sure Don Marshall and I would have talked about the whole father son thing.

[Matt]

I'm too old to be your son is the problem. Like, I'm just old enough to give you a hard time once in a while.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, you're like a younger brother who was an accident.

[Matt]

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. That's a really good way to put it.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt]

I prefer the term surprise to accident.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. Fair enough. Yeah. The gap's too big for it to be like, oh, you were the next. Of course you were next. No, you were like, whoa, whoa, hey, that was coming. Yeah. So, you know, obviously, I could have run with those as the opening gags to this week. I almost did. But I also knew you didn't see me as the highest, noblest man in the world, so I just left it there. A reminder, folks, Kyrian is 61 years old at this moment. And Eorl is 25, so yeah, there's definitely that. The way they see each other is not quite like peers, but more like a father son. Kyrion's own son, Hallas is 30. So no wonder Kirion sees Orel in this light. I mean, you're younger than my son. Of course. Here's this incredible young man who's risen to be the lord of his people and who came into that role so young. Eorl was 16 when he became the Lord of the Eotheod thanks to his father's death. When he fell off the horse. Right, he fell off Felaroth, who was not yet named. And that relationship, there's just an admiration that Kyrion has for this young man but also a love like, hey, I've been around a while, I've been around the block and I see in you. Yeah, what was it? Strength and hope, which is just a great combination of traits.

[Matt]

And not to mention, you know, this, this young guy who's like you said, he's been king for nine years and he's 25 years old. I mean he just majorly bailed him out and like, yeah, saved his people. You can't necessarily. That's not necessarily something you expect of a 25 year old.

[Alan Sisto]

No, it's a maturity and an understanding. I mean, remember when we read this last week, EORL realizes when the message gets to him, we have to do this. If we don't do this, we're next. He's got a maturity and a wisdom to him where he realizes he can't just function on his own and be like, well, that's your problem. Too bad. So sad, right? I really admire the way this relationship is drawn up. I also tend to think that Halas is not seeing any sort of. I get the feeling that Halas, Kyrion's own son, isn't jealous here.

[Matt]

It's not like, yeah, we don't have like a Denethor, Denethor Thorongil situation.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, because of course Hallas ends up, you know, absolutely living up to his father's commitment. And as we'll see, I think next week or the week after, it's Hallas himself who ends up coming up with the names. Rohan. You'll hear him in all of this.

[Matt]

You know, which are pretty great names.

[Alan Sisto]

They really are. I love those names. So, you know, this young man who I'm sure Kyrion admires his own son as well because he's going to be wise, he's going to Be, you know, noble guy, but he sees Eorl as this incredible opportunity, you know, this, this potential, you know, already developed as a 25 year old young man. Eorl, on the other hand, looks at Kyrion and sees. I love the way the text says the highest and noblest man of the world. I mean, he just looks up to Kyrion because here he is right now, switching perspectives. Eorl's been lord for nine years, but he knows he's still young. He looks at Kyrion and sees this guy who's been the steward for a while of a kingdom that's been around for ages. And he sees this leader. He's high, he's noble and he's wise and he's majestic. What a set of adjectives.

[Matt]

Yeah, you, you can imagine the allure and the, the grandiose nature of the Numenoreans, you know, shines through with Kirion and Gondor. And you know, by comparison, it's like the backwater horse people, you know, with their 25 year old king. It's like, it's kind of, it's a.

[Alan Sisto]

Little different, you know, I mean, I'm sure Eorl knows. Look, we're, we're good people, but we are the middlemen. We are not the high men. And there's, there's an admiration.

[Andrew Ferguson]

Good.

[Matt]

They're good old country folk, man.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's, there'd be history between them. Of course. We know it's not, you know, because the Aotheod have come to their help before.

[Matt]

Absolutely.

[Alan Sisto]

Even before when they were the Northmen. You know, we talked about the Northmen that were involved in the army that helped the Witch King. Yep, exactly. And how word came back and the. Okay, well, now it's safe to move. Yeah, there's a, there's going to be stories and songs among the people of the Eotheod about these high men of Numenor and the Numenorean realms in exile. Yeah. So it's no wonder. But wow. I really love the way Tolkien described this. I also feel like this may be another example of the kind of love that we see between men in Tolkien. Right. Yeah. The sort of fraternal or in this case, more paternal love. It's a little different than the character of the relationship, you know, has some different dimensions to it than say Aragorn and Eomer or Aragorn and Faramir, even though the age gap is bigger.

[Matt]

Right. Oh, that's wild. Aragorn.

[Alan Sisto]

So flipping old.

[Matt]

That's a really Great point. I hadn't thought about the age difference there too. Oh, that's funny.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Aragorn's significantly older than Cirion, and Eomer is only slightly older than Eorl at this point. Yeah. But it's similar in nature. Yeah.

[Matt]

Yeah. I. I love those brotherly friendships, you know, especially Aragorn and Eomer. Just theirs is really neat, the two of them ruling their. Their kingdom side by side and, you know, riding to war together and stuff. Yeah, yeah. Often it's really neat that often Eomer fulfilled the oath of aeorl. It's great stuff.

[Alan Sisto]

I just. I feel like there's got to be something in Tolkien, you know, in his own personal life. I mean, I think back to. To obviously the friendships that he would have developed with the men in his life, certainly the Inklings or, you know, his fellow soldiers In World War I, tragically, most of whom died.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

But you also think maybe of an officer and a Batman come to mind. Right. Frodo. Sam is almost the one I'm seeing here in that regard a little bit.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Where there's this. I mean, it's different because Frodo doesn't see Sam as the lord of anybody, but there definitely is from some looking up.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. The high and noble and wise and majestic. Certainly Sam views Frodo in that light.

[Matt]

And of course, Frodo's much older, you know, for. You don't know in the books, like, Frodo's much older than.

[Alan Sisto]

He's like 20 some odd years.

[Matt]

No Elijah Wood, you know, he's no Elijah Wood's not even all these years later. He's not even to the age where Frodo would be in the books.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm barely at the age that Frodo was when he left with the ring. Yeah. Which makes me feel young again.

[Matt]

There you go.

[Alan Sisto]

There you go. Now I just need Peter Jackson to do a dramatic close up on my eyes.

[Matt]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

No, I really do love the way Tolkien frames these relationships. He's not afraid to really give us words that are deep and meaningful about connections between these men. Love. He doesn't shy away from the word love here. And I think that's a beautiful thing. That's just fantastic. I really, really enjoy the way that Kyrion and Eorle are portrayed here. But setting aside the political gains for either side, it's clear these men lead their people out of love, too. Not just the love that they have for each other, but the love they have for their people. And I think it's that that drives them to come together as allies out of that same love.

[Matt]

Yeah. And after thinking it through, Eorl replies to Cirion here with gratitude and in friendship. And he accepts the gift on the behalf of the Eotheod, acknowledging that it was more than their actions could have earned.

[Alan Sisto]

And, you know, I love that because he makes clear here that their actions. Right. The actions of the Eotheod, they were also a gift.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, the Eotheod would have come to Gondor's rescue without this gift. Kyrion didn't have to say to his messengers, tell Eorl that we're in need and that if he comes with his people and saves us, we will give you this big land. Then it's a payment.

[Matt]

Then they're mercenaries.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. And so instead, the Eotheod, led by Eoral, this lord who has a love for Kyrion, comes without a promise, comes without payment, comes as a gift. I come unconditionally to save and rescue Kyrion and the people of Gondor. And Kyrion is now saying I give virtually unconditionally the land of Kalanarthon. Right. Yeah. The only condition is a mutual alliance. But it's a mutual. It's a promise for each other. It's a, It's a. It's a covenant, not a one way deal. And it's really, really beautiful.

[Matt]

Yeah. I love it. I love when, you know, we see. And it's, it's a great thing about so many Tolkien characters. They do the right thing because it's the right thing.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes.

[Matt]

For no other reason.

[Andrew Ferguson]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

1,000 times, yes. Yeah. I love that.

[Matt]

Yeah. And we see here that he offers to confirm this perpetual friendship with a very memorable oath.

[Alan Sisto]

I love that. Errol's like, okay, if you're going to give me a gift, we got to do something to commemorate this. Yeah. And Kirion, of course, agrees. And we will get to see those oaths as seem fitting next week, though. I'm just going to tell you right now, I'm so bummed we don't get a orals oath in, you know, in any written form. We just get that he said this great oath. Yeah, I want to know the oath.

[Matt]

Yeah. Tolkien, like, hey, this oath, it was. Oh, it was great. Fantastic.

[Alan Sisto]

Totally fitting.

[Matt]

Best oath you've ever heard. What did he say? It's not important. You just. It's. It's real good.

[Alan Sisto]

Let alone give it to us in Old English. Which is what I would have wanted to hear. Yeah. Especially because we do get to see Kirianzo, which I'm excited to read next week because it's Quenya, and I just like finding an excuse I can to read Quenya.

[Matt]

That's right.

[Alan Sisto]

Lord Steward of the Great Mailbag. The gift that you offer I accept for myself and for my people. Your questions far exceed any reward that our podcast could have earned. What does Marlevan have for us tonight?

[Matt]

Well, since we've been talking about the horse people so much here recently, you know, with the Eotheod and the Rohirrim, I thought it would be a good time to answer a horse question. So Anne from Minnesota asks, did Shadowfax sail into the west with Gandalf at the end of the Third Age? It appears he was there at the Grey Havens, but the text doesn't specify if he got on the boat. Can animals even come to the Undying Lands?

[Alan Sisto]

Interestingly, folks, one of the challenges that I have with with writing these episodes is I often give my mailbag questions to my co hosts and say, hey, come up with a good question. Let's talk about this. Obviously, Matt didn't know that we actually talked about this at the end of last season, but this gives us a chance to put a different spin on it. So we're going to take a look at this question again. So even if you have listened to us before and you know, some 30 episodes ago when we talked about this, I feel like, hey, it's still fun to talk through, especially now that we've been spending so much time with the aotheod. Obviously, Matt, if we were limited, and I shouldn't just say Matt, I should say Anne, if we were limited to the texts that Tolkien himself published, this would be a pretty open ended issue, right? We wouldn't really have a solid answer. So let's track Shadow facts as a reader would for the 26 years between the time the Return of the King was published and the time the letters were published. First, we know that Shadowfax is with Gandalf when he parts ways with the Hobbits before the Scouring of the Shire. Goodbye, dear friends. Not for the last time. Not yet. Goodbye. He turned Shadowfax off the road and the great horse leaped the green dike that here ran beside it. And then at a cry from Gandalf, he was gone, racing towards the Barrow Downs like a wind from the north.

[Matt]

Now that of course, is when Gandalf goes to just hang out and chill with Tom and Goldberry for two years. Just does.

[Alan Sisto]

He's there the whole time.

[Matt]

I think It. I think it does imply that he was just hanging out. Yeah. They have stuff to talk about.

[Alan Sisto]

They do. I do know that he's very anxious to get to sit down with Tom for a while. I don't. I don't think I could put up with him for two years. Can you put up with Tom Bobadil for two years and his various rhyming.

[Matt]

The question is, would you start to talk like him? Would you pick up some of that?

[Alan Sisto]

Well, that's the thing. I have this weird headcanon that everybody who listens to the show by now knows because I've mentioned every time Tom comes up. You know how we get to see him speaking in trochaic tetrameter?

[Matt]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

I think that he changes his meter every month or every season. Oh, like that's just when we caught it. Just forgiveness. So another time he speaks in iambic pentameter, and another time he just uses limerick. I mean, I feel like, you know, he must mix it up because otherwise, I don't know.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Trochaic tetrameter for thousands of years would get boring eventually, I would think.

[Matt]

I don't know.

[Alan Sisto]

I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

It's just my own weird little silly head cannon. But yeah, I think that you would definitely start being a little more sing songy if you were hanging out with Tommy Goldberg.

[Matt]

I think you probably would. Yeah. And I mean, let's. Yeah, that's. That's an aside.

[Alan Sisto]

But it is. That's what we do here, though, as a sides.

[Matt]

That's true. Yeah. I also think, like, Gandalf's been upgraded since the last time he met Tom.

[Alan Sisto]

So that is true. So Tom's got a lot to find out from Gandalf.

[Matt]

Maybe he's got some insight and, you know, I know, I know people who think that Tom is Illuvitar think that, like, I know that he's not. I know he's not.

[Alan Sisto]

But I'm just saying that for the benefit of everybody else.

[Matt]

But. But people who think that make the connection and say, like, oh, well, you know, Gandalf was sent back by Louvatar. So that's when he realizes, whoa, Tom's Illuvitar. But, you know, that's not the case.

[Alan Sisto]

Can I just.

[Matt]

It's just conspiracy theory stuff.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt]

That I've seen. That I've seen on the Interwebs.

[Alan Sisto]

Anyway, getting Middle Earth is not flat, by the way, just so you know.

[Matt]

Middle Earth is not anymore.

[Alan Sisto]

Globe.

[Matt]

Yeah. Now, okay, so getting back to Shadow Facts, what we read in the Grey Havens chapter is a bit more cryptic. So obviously Shadow Facts was with him when he goes to meet Tom Bombadil. So a couple years later, fast forward a couple years, we find the Grey Havens chapter reads, then Kierdan led them to the Havens, and there was a white ship lying, and upon the key beside a great gray horse stood a figure robed in all white, awaiting them. Then a bit later, it says, then those who were to go were glad, for they knew that Gandalf also would take ship with them.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, this description might throw off some people. We've talked about this before, but, you know, if you assume that Shadowfax is white, whereas here it's a great gray horse, you know, but he's described, remember, as a flash of silver in the sunset. And we're also told that by day his coat glistens like silver, and by night it is like a shade. We've talked before about how he's a white horse, but he's a gray horse.

[Matt]

Yes. And this research, actually, I've looked into this topic before, and every time that I do and, like, look for the quotes and everything, I end up going down interesting rabbit holes of equine research.

[Alan Sisto]

Those be horse holes instead of rabbit holes?

[Matt]

Yes. Yeah. So horse holes. I go down horse holes of research. But apparently you can spot a truly white horse because they will typically have a pink nose.

[Alan Sisto]

Also. Like an albino.

[Matt]

Yeah, kind of. Kind of.

[Andrew Ferguson]

Okay.

[Matt]

Yeah. But a. A gray horse with a whitish coat will have a black nose. Ah, so. So there you go. That's. And, you know, for the equine experts, if I'm totally botching this and Google failed me, let us know. But for what it's worth, I checked, and Shadow Facts in the films does indeed have a black nose.

[Alan Sisto]

Not that the films are always the guide to what's accurate, but.

[Matt]

Yeah, but I'm saying in this case, like, if it, if it is a. In real life, a great gray horse, you know, it would be considered a gray horse if it has a black nose, then the film's got that right, rather than casting a horse with a pink nose. So there you go.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a good point.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, you know, we do eventually discover that this is one of the mysteries that Tolkien himself responded to. I mean, yes, okay, the text says that the horse is there. And even if we assume that's. That's Shadow Facts, we're not told that he gets on the boat. But Tolkien says, yes, yes, he did. And we look at a letter that he wrote back in 1965 that, of course, we didn't see until 1981. So that's why I said, you know, the people had to wait, you know, a quarter of a century to find this out. This is the letter that we quoted several episodes back at the end of last season. I think Shadowfax certainly went with Gandalf across the sea. Though this is not stated. I feel it is better not to state everything and indeed it is more realistic since in chronicles and accounts of real history many facts that some inquirer would like to know are omitted and the truth has to be discovered or guessed from such evidence as there is, I should argue so Shadowfax came of a special race being, as it were, an Elvish equivalent of ordinary horses. His blood came from West Oversea. It would not be unfitting for him to go west. Gandalf was not dying or going by a special grace to the western land before passing on beyond the circles of the world. He was going home. Being plainly one of the immortals an angelic emissary of the angelic governors the Valar of the Earth. He would take, or could take what he loved. Gandalf was last seen writing Shadowfax and that is when he references the quote that you had us read earlier the one where, you know Gandalf was heading off to visit Tom and Goldberry. He must have ridden to the havens and it is inconceivable that he would have written any beast but Shadowfax. So Shadowfax must have been there. Sure enough, we see that, you know, this. This horse was there a chronicler winding up a long tail and for the moment moved principally by the sorrow of those left behind himself among them. I love. That might omit mention of the horse but had the great horse also shared in the grief of sundering he could hardly have been forgotten. I love that. So if shadow facts had been left behind we would have been told about his sorrow.

[Matt]

Yes. Then Sam would have written it in the Red Book if. If Shadowfax.

[Alan Sisto]

Shadowfax whinnied and cried as Gandalf sailed off.

[Matt]

Oh, my gosh. Can you imagine? That's like. I mean, it would. It would for us, as readers take away a little bit if we also had the grieving of the horse.

[Alan Sisto]

But that would be very sad.

[Matt]

But I would be very sad about Shadowfax being grieved at being parted from Gandalf.

[Alan Sisto]

He. He definitely belongs back in Valinor. I mean, remember, the Miras are said to have descended from one of Orame's horses. And so therefore it's like him going home.

[Matt]

Yeah, I love that. And I also love that it's inconceivable that Gandalf would be riding any other horse, you know?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Why would you? Why would you? I mean. Right. Yeah, it would be. Imagine if you owned a Ferrari. Now, I know that the comparison's not the same because the more you drive the Ferrari, the less it's worth. And maybe the maintenance bills are too much, but if you've got a Ferrari and the means to drive it all the time, are you going to drive anything else?

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

No, you're not. You're going to drive that car everywhere you want to go. And of course Gandalf is going to ride shadow facts everywhere he goes. You know, he doesn't have a little. A slow horse for around town that gets better mileage, right? No, he's got shadow facts. So we take shadow facts. Yeah, yeah.

[Matt]

But, yeah, I love, I love looking at this, as you said, this is, this is a topic we've covered, you know, that you've covered before here on the show. But I do always enjoy looking at answers like this that come in the letters or in the history of Middle Earth and think if Christopher hadn't gone through all of those papers of his father, we would have no idea, like we would be debating this to this very day whether Shadowfax got on the boat and we'd have no definitive answer. And I love that we can confidently say, yes, he was with Gandalf and went to the West.

[Alan Sisto]

I agree. I like that. It's also interesting that Tolkien says something, you know, just a little bit ago we complained about the fact that we don't have the actual text of Eorl's oath. But look at what he says. Since in chronicles and accounts of real history, many facts that some inquirer would like to know read us are omitted and the truth has to be discovered or guessed from such evidence as there is. Yeah, it's the textual ruins idea. You know, we've talked at length about this. This concept of things that he puts in the story that he doesn't flesh out.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

And he doesn't flesh them out on purpose. Yeah, like that's the way a real history would read, I think to something we talked about not too long ago when Aragorn mentions in the Long dark of Moria, talks about how Gandalf is more sure in finding his way in the dark than the cats of Queen Beruthiel. Yes, and, like, what?

[Matt]

No other comment?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, no other comment. Just, oh, of course. The cats of Queen Beruthiel. I'm sure I know what you're talking about. No, I don't. Aragorn, would you explain? And, you know, we have to end up going in depth. And we find out for a long time, actually, that Tolkien didn't have that story written. He tells in a letter. There is a backstory for everything he says to somebody. I don't remember the actual quote, but he's basically telling them, look, I've got all the backstory fleshed out on all of these stories. I'm just not sharing it all. Except for a couple of things, and I can't remember what the other one was, but one of them was the cats of Queen Beru.

[Matt]

He didn't have a story, Just dropped it in there. It's like, oh, figure it out later. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

But then eventually. That's exactly right. Eventually he does figure it out, and he comes up with a backstory for.

[Matt]

Which is great. It's a really unique and cool. Cool backstory, though.

[Alan Sisto]

I still want to know why that. Why that King of Gondor married a black Numenorean. Because he thinks that that's where she came from, that she would have been, you know, descended from the king's men who had founded the realms, you know, like, harad and stuff, so. Or Umbar. I'm sorry, not harad. Yeah, yeah.

[Matt]

Their loveless marriage. Yeah. It's like, what?

[Alan Sisto]

And he was the first of the childless kings.

[Matt]

Yeah. I do love these. Like you said, the. The textual ruins. I think it is a huge thing that makes Middle Earth feel so real that, you know, it's. It's this awesome kind of middle ground, I'd say, where he's. He's fleshed out so much, and there are so many connections and so much history, and yet there are things that are so tantalizing that you just don't know the answers to, and it makes it feel like real history. Like, we. We have. Miss. We have so many mysteries in our world that, like, I get sucked into every dang one that I come across on TV or streaming or something where it's like, oh, the. You know, the mystery of this, you know, ancient ruler and, you know, all these. I can't think of any specific ones.

[Alan Sisto]

Off the top of my head. And that's okay, because if you did, somebody would be like, oh, there's no mystery. This is what we know.

[Matt]

It's like, I. I mean, okay, so the guilty pleasure One is like, when I watch Finding Bigfoot, it's like. It's like, spoiler alert, they're never gonna find him. But, man, isn't it fun to, like, think of these mysteries and, like, these breadcrumbs and stuff? Or Loch Ness?

[Alan Sisto]

You're too young to have remembered this, but when I was a kid, I used to watch a show called In Search of, and it was hosted by Leonard Nimoy. The guy who played Spock on Star.

[Matt]

Trek, who sang the Ballad of Bilbo Baggins.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes. Sang the Ballad of Bilbo Baggins, famously. So we've actually been able to connect him to Tolkien. Yeah. And it was the same kind of thing where, you know, you spend an hour talking about the Bermuda Triangle or Bigfoot or Loch Ness or, you know, all these mysteries, and it's just so intriguing. And, yeah, Tolkien's like, that's how history works, man. So I leave stories sort of untold because you have to discover or guess the truth from the evidence that's there.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And I just find that so realistic. And again, that comes back to his whole idea. This isn't about giving you every detail and having you suspend disbelief. It's about creating a world that is believable based on what's here. Right. It's about secondary belief. It's about belief in this secondary world. That's the inner consistency of reality. And that's what we're talking about here, is the inner consistency of reality. It feels like a real history. Speaking of history. This episode is history, folks. That wraps it up for another episode of the Prancing Pony podcast. But please be sure to come back next week when oaths are offered and a surprise is found atop the Halifurion as we continue the story of Kyrion and eorl.

[Matt]

I really can't wait. This is such a. This is a great moment. And we've teed it up enough that, like, I know you guys. I hope that the surprise doesn't. Doesn't let you down. I don't think it will, because it's really, really cool.

[Alan Sisto]

And I really hope it's genuinely a surprise to some of you. I hope that some of you are like, you know what? I'm going to stick with this show and listen as we go through the appendices and unfinished tales and that. Yeah, just. If that's the case, wait a week and join with us as we explore.

[Matt]

Well, Alan and I want to thank the members of Team PPP editor Jordan Rannells Barlam and Becca Davis, Social media manager Casey Hilsey, event and Patreon community coordinator Katie McKenna, graphic artist Megan Collins, and website guru Phil Dean.

[Alan Sisto]

And please take a minute to check out the prancingponypodcast.com that's where you're going to find show notes, outtakes, Prancing Pony ponderings, and our online storefront where you can get PPP merch that includes all the great episode artwork that Megan's been doing for the PPP over the last two and a half seasons.

[Matt]

You'll also want to visit our library page. The Prancing Pony Podcast is, after all, a podcast about the books. So if you're interested in a book we've mentioned on the show, you'll find a link for it in our library. We do get a small amount of compensation when you make your purchase, and we thank you for that indeed.

[Alan Sisto]

And we also want to thank our patrons at the Kirdance contribution tier. I'll start with Demay in Alaska, Chad in Texas, Lance in New Jersey, Paul in Colorado, Joseph in Michigan, Kathy from North Carolina, Carlos in California, Brian in the uk, Jerry from Washington, Joe in Washington, Irwin from the Netherlands, Ben in Minnesota, Anthony in Texas, June in Ireland, Zach Zaksu in Illinois, Sarah in New Jersey, Joshua in Massachusetts, Lucy in Texas, Keith in Alabama, and Erica in Texas.

[Matt]

There's also Carson in Oklahoma, Vivian in California, James in Massachusetts, Ann in Kentucky, Sean in New Jersey, Mason in California, Maureen from Massachusetts, Olivia in London, Robert in Arizona, Nick in Wisconsin, Lewis in South Carolina, Thomas in Germany, Craig in California, Bailey in Texas, Kevin in Massachusetts, Julie in Washington, Bruce in California, Joe in Maryland, Nathan in Arizona, and Kevin in Pennsylvania. Thank you all so very much for your support indeed.

[Alan Sisto]

Thank you.

[Matt]

Make sure you don't miss any episodes of the Prancing Pony Podcast. Subscribe now through Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or your favorite podcast app.

[Alan Sisto]

And one last thing. As always, don't forget to send your thoughts, comments and most of all, your oaths that shall not be forgotten to barlaman@the prancingponypodcast.com and if you want your.

[Matt]

Voice or your oath literally heard, well, just send us audio of your question. Visit podinbox.com prancingponypod and record your question for us. Be sure to still email the question to Barlaman, though.

[Alan Sisto]

Please do. Now, even though Barliman's been a lot more rapid reliable lately, there's still a lot of mail to sort through. We'll try to get to you just as soon as we're able. As always, though, this has been far too short a time to spend among such excellent and admirable listeners.

[Matt]

But until next time, this is the end. We are going. We are leaving now. Goodbye, Sa.