358 – Oath of No Return

Summary

The Prancing Pony Podcast - Episode 358: "Oath of No Return"

Release Date: February 9, 2025

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Introduction

In the ninth season of The Prancing Pony Podcast, hosts Alan Sisto and Matt delve deep into the rich tapestry of J.R.R. Tolkien's Middle-earth. In Episode 358, titled "Oath of No Return," they explore pivotal moments from Tolkien's legendarium, focusing on the solemn oaths between key characters and the intricate philological elements that enrich the narrative.

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Main Discussion: The Oath Between Eorl and Cirion

Timestamp: [01:42]

The episode centers around a significant oath taken between Eorl, the King of the Mark of Rohan, and Cirion, the Steward of Gondor. Alan and Matt break down the Quenya language intricacies within the oath, providing listeners with a deeper understanding of its meaning and significance.

Notable Quote:

"This is the oath of Eorl." – Matt [4:12]

Philology Fair: Decoding the Quenya Oath

Timestamp: [02:25]

Before delving into the oath itself, Alan introduces the "Fan Favorite Philology" segment, where he and Matt dissect the Quenya language used in the oath. They emphasize the depth of Tolkien's linguistic creation, showcasing how each word carries profound meaning.

Notable Quote:

"Vanda sina terma ruva Elenna Norio Alkar and Yalian Aralendil verondo veronwe nai tiruvanta sihara mahalmassan minumen ari erui or Ilie Mahalmar ea tenojyo." – Alan [03:22]

Translation and Analysis:

Alan provides a translation of the Quenya oath, highlighting its solemn promise and historical weight. He references Christopher Tolkien's footnotes to elucidate the meanings of specific terms, such as "vanda" (oath) and "vanda sana terma ruva" (this oath shall stand).

Notable Quote:

"This oath shall stand in memory of the glory of the land of the star and of the faith of Elendil the faithful." – Matt [05:48]

Character Insights: Kyrion and Aoral

Timestamp: [13:14]

The discussion shifts to character analysis, focusing on Kyrion, the Steward of Gondor, and Aoral, a high-ranking captain. Alan and Matt express admiration for Kyrion's leadership qualities—his bravery, humility, and generosity—and speculate on Aoral's role and customs.

Notable Quote:

"Kyrion puts a hand on the tomb, and again, it's lending this sense of sanctity to the ceremony." – Alan [43:58]

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Reading Segment: The Oath in Action

Timestamp: [34:03]

Alan and Matt transition to a dramatic reading of the oath-taking ceremony between Eorl and Cirion. They vividly portray the scene where Eorl pledges eternal friendship and mutual aid to Gondor, sealing the bond with a powerful Quenya vow.

Notable Quote:

"Hear now, all peoples who bow not to the shadow... We will aid them to the utmost end of our strength." – Eorl [38:44]

Analysis of the Ceremony:

Post-reading, the hosts analyze the ceremonial actions—Eorl planting his spear, Kyrion casting his sword—and discuss their symbolic significance. They draw parallels to similar moments in The Lord of the Rings, emphasizing the gravity and historical importance of the oath.

Notable Quote:

"Such a potent moment. I love the respect that Eorl is showing to Elendil here." – Alan [37:07]

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Mapping Rohan: Defining Boundaries

Timestamp: [53:20]

Alan and Matt explore the geographical boundaries of Rohan as defined in the text. They meticulously map out Rohan's borders, discussing significant landmarks such as the River Isen (Angren) and the Entwash (Onodlo). This segment provides listeners with a clearer understanding of Rohan's strategic and symbolic landscape.

Notable Quote:

"The bounds of the realm of Eorl were to be in the west, the river Angren, from its junction with the Adorn and thence northwards..." – Matt [51:03]

Notable Quote:

"The term Mark signified a borderland, especially one serving as a defense of the inner lands of a realm." – Alan [70:54]

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Character Development: Kyrion's Leadership

Timestamp: [86:31]

The hosts commend Kyrion's multifaceted leadership, highlighting his ability to balance political acumen with personal humility. They discuss his strategic decisions, such as delegating to half his forces to defend the new kingdom and his unwavering commitment to honor the oath, regardless of personal cost.

Notable Quote:

"He is a very impressive guy... balancing his courage, humility, and generosity." – Alan [87:00]

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Audience Interaction: Recommendations for Tolkien Enthusiasts

Timestamp: [75:10]

Responding to a listener's query, Matt and Alan offer recommendations for those who have exhausted Tolkien's works but seek further enrichment. They suggest both Tolkien's non-legendarium writings, such as "On Fairy Stories" and "Leaf by Niggle," and scholarly works by authors like Tom Shippey, Ursula K. Le Guin, and Isaac Asimov to deepen one's understanding of fantasy world-building and linguistic mastery.

Notable Quote:

"If you really enjoyed that sort of aspect... Isaac Asimov's Foundation series might provide for you." – Alan [89:58]

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Conclusion

Episode 358 of The Prancing Pony Podcast masterfully intertwines textual analysis, linguistic exploration, and character study to bring Tolkien's Middle-earth to life. Alan and Matt's passion for the legendarium shines through as they dissect the "Oath of No Return," providing listeners with a comprehensive understanding of its significance within the broader narrative.

Notable Quote:

"Such a good line." – Alan [87:46]

Final Thoughts:

The episode concludes with heartfelt thanks to the podcast team and patrons, encouraging listeners to engage with the community and continue their Middle-earth journey through additional recommended readings.

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Recommendations for Further Listening:

• Previous Episodes: To fully appreciate the context of Episode 358, listeners are encouraged to explore earlier episodes, particularly those covering the history of Rohan and key battles.
• Tolkien Times: For daily Tolkien content, check out Today's Tolkien Times on YouTube and other podcast platforms.

Join the Fellowship: Support the Prancing Pony Podcast by joining the Fellowship of the Podcast on Patreon for exclusive content, ad-free episodes, and more.

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This summary captures the essence of Episode 358, providing both an overview and detailed insights into the discussions held by Alan Sisto and Matt. Whether you're a seasoned Tolkien enthusiast or new to Middle-earth, this episode offers valuable perspectives on the enduring bonds and intricate languages that define Tolkien's masterpiece.

Transcript

[Matt]

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[Alan Sisto]

3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month Required intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See full [e-mail] with new mcvalue at McDonald's you always get more than you expect every day. So even if gas prices go up, you can buy a double cheeseburger and add a McChicken for one dollar. Or before game time you can get five dollar meal deals for the group. And if breakfast is about to end, get deals in the app to save before the bell. The choice is yours and the choice with McValue is always more. Prices and participation may vary. Valid for item of equal or lesser value. Must opt in to rewards for app deals. Good evening little masters, and welcome to episode 358 of the prancing Pony Podcast where, well, the awe that dwells on this hill doesn't come from any tomb.

[Matt]

Yeah, the thing is, I'm not sure there is any awe that dwells around here.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, maybe while you're still here, Matt. I don't know.

[Matt]

Oh yeah, there we go. Now folks, pull up a bench in the common room and join us. I'm Matt, the Nerd of the Rings and I'm here with the man of the west who will take now his oath in such manner as seems to him fitting according to the customs of his people.

[Alan Sisto]

Alan Sisto I think that just means I shake your hand and take a selfie with you, Matt. I'm not. I'm not really sure what the customs of my people are anymore.

[Matt]

I think that's what it is nowadays.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, just about. Well folks, join us as thankfully Kyrian and Aoral take this a lot more seriously than we do as we near the end of our six episode sidebar through Kyrion and Eorle. One more episode to go after this, folks.

[Matt]

No matter how you arrived, you're all welcome here in the common room at the Prancing Pony Podcast. We're reading and talking our way through Middle Earth with plenty of speculation and bad jokes along the way.

[Alan Sisto]

Sadly, that's true. We do love our deep dives into the lore though, discussing our favorite themes and a whole lot more, but we.

[Matt]

Try to keep it light and fun, like a couple friends chatting at the pub. And we're glad you've joined us, and.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm sure you'll be glad you joined as well. But before we get to tonight's chapter discussion, it's time for Fan Favorite Philology. I love that stinger. All right, now, later in this episode, we're going to get to read the breathtakingly beautiful Quenya oath spoken by Kyrion, and I'd like us to do some advanced word nerdery on it now in advance of that moment. Now, for those of you who also listen to or watch today's Tolkien Times, this might sound familiar, as I'll be going back to the word nerd Wednesday from week 32 about a year ago. Now, we'll need to start with the oath itself so that we can break it down. So I'm going to read it here, even though we're also going to read it during the episode. Vanda sina terma ruva Elenna Norio Alkar and Yalian Aralendil verondo veronwe nai tiruvanta sihara mahalmassan minumen ari erui or Ilie Mahalmar ea10noyo.

[Matt]

Now, you might be wondering why we're bothering with a philology fair on this, when Cirion literally repeats his oath in the Common Speech immediately after fair point. And I mean, first of all, Allen loves to show off his Elvish reading. That's he just loves to rub it in that I mess up way more than he is.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, well, that's true. That's true. I'm not sure so much that I like to show it off, so much as I like to put you in a position to show your absolute favor.

[Matt]

Yes. So in the Common Speech, it says, this oath shall stand in memory of the glory of the land of the star, and of the faith of Elendil, the faithful in the keeping of those who sit upon the thrones of the west and of the one who is above all, Thrones forever, in fact. Yeah, so let's get to it, Alan. Why? Why are we bothering? Aside from you showing off?

[Alan Sisto]

Well, you know, I mean, it is a really impressive thing. It's one of the longest bits of Quenya prose in all of Tolkien, and the detail in that Quenya is really worth taking a closer look at. So that's why we're going to go ahead and dive in. Now, Christopher Tolkien, in a footnote to this passage, which is based on Tolkien's notes, explains that the first word, vanda, means an oath, pledge, or solemn promise. Now, this is an example of one of those words that I was really unable to find more information on. I looked in the etymologies in the Lost Road and other writings. I even looked in. Cue the notes, Parma el Dalambaron number 17. Now, what I did find was a note leading me to an article in an issue of Parma el Dalambron that I don't have. The article is addenda and korogenda. That just means additions and corrections. So just fancy words, additions and corrections to the etymologies, part one. And it's in Parma el Dalambaron number 45. One I don't have. Now, in that article, we learn that quenya vanda also means prison hell. It comes from the primitive Quendian root bad, which shows up in Nodorin as band. And it's the same element we see in Angband, for instance, Right? Prison of iron. Right. A hell of iron.

[Matt]

Interesting.

[Alan Sisto]

But that's only one derivative of the Koandian root bad. The other means judge or judgment. And you can sort of see the parallel there with prison or judgment. And that seems like the derivative we'd be looking at for vanda here to mean oath, because an oath calls down judgment if it's broken. Now, I have to admit, in this, I am only guessing, I couldn't find anything to confirm this beyond the definition in the footnote.

[Matt]

And we also learned that the third word in the oath, termaruva, is a compound word from ter meaning through and mar meaning abide, be settled or fixed in the future tense.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[Matt]

Once again, this comes to us through the footnote to the text. That's also where we learn that Elena Noreo is a reference to Numenor, the land of the Star. Literally, though the name means towards or to the star or starwards land. And it was named this, of course, because the edain that first sailed to the island to inhabit it in the time of Elros after the War of Wrath, were sailing star wards, following the star of Earendil to reach it.

[Alan Sisto]

But the way that it's used here in that Elenorio is in the genitive case, where it depends upon the word alkar, which is also right there. Alkar means glory, and thus that phrase is translated as the glory of the land of the star. Right, so you've got that connection, that genitive case is where the word then depends on this other thing. So it's the glory of the land of the star. Now, alkar, very interesting word. Right. That's the word that means glory. It's also something we see in Alkarinke, the name of Jupiter in the sky of Arda. It's translated as the glorious. Right. So again, Alkar. It's also in the name of the youngest of Elros's children, a son by the name of Atanalkar, which would translate as man. Glory. Now, thanks to Tolkien Gateway, I also learned that we see this Alkar in Tolkien's personal translation of the Gloria in excelsis Deo in de Quenya. Now, this was actually published in Vineyard Tengwar 44. Alkar mi tarmenel na erun armikemen reina I hinen. Glory be to God in the highest and peace to his people on Earth. Christmas carols in Quenya. That's a thing.

[Matt]

I like it.

[Alan Sisto]

Jinglenella, Frosty the Lossoth. Oh, Christmas Orne. I am here for it, man.

[Matt]

Did you know that Quenya shows up in the Father Christmas letters?

[Alan Sisto]

Yes. Yes, it does.

[Matt]

I just learned this recently. Yeah, it's awesome.

[Alan Sisto]

Father Christmas letters are a real treasure, man. I tell you, they are.

[Matt]

I love them. Yeah. Now, Enyalian will likely sound familiar to those who have ever attended Oxenmut. On Sunday afternoon, at the conclusion of Oxenmuth, everyone takes a bus over to Wolver Coat Cemetery, where Tolkien and his wife Edith are buried, to lay a wreath on the grave. The chair reads a passage and the song Namarie is sung. And it's always a poignant and very important, very traditional part of Oxamut.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, it really is a. A hugely important part of Oxamut. Always one of my. I don't want to say favorites because it's. It's emotionally draining, you know, I mean, it's. It's.

[Matt]

Yeah, it is very somber. Yeah. After you've. You've been, you know, having a grand old time.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. Yeah.

[Matt]

We've done fish and chips twice in one day. Totally did that last time. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

It's hard not to, man.

[Matt]

Had some cider at the pub and then. Yeah, it's a. It's a very. Some very different tonally.

[Alan Sisto]

It really is. It's a very different tone to the rest of Oxy, but well worth going.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

So the event, of course, is in Yal, but that's not surprisingly where you're going to get this word in Yalian from. The word is important. It's a compound word from en, meaning again, and jal, meaning summon. So summon, again, in the infinitive, it is enyalie, that's memory, or Remembrance. That's the way it's mentioned at Aksamut. Here it is in the dative as enyalien, and it means for the recalling. And it's connected to Alkar once again. So to recall or commemorate the glory of Star wars land. So it's a lot of words that are dependent on the other words. That's why it's a little confusing, and it's why we're doing a philology fair on it.

[Matt]

Now, Verondo, according to the footnote, is the genitive form of Voronda, meaning steadfast in allegiance and keeping other promise faithful. But why does Kyrion say Elendil? Vorondo. Voronwe.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

That's because Vorondo is a title attached to Elendil, that is Elendil the steadfast in allegiance, or Elendil the faithful. And that's followed by Voronwe, which means steadfastness, loyalty, faithfulness. And it's the object of the word. And yalian. That's why it's translated as and of the faith of Elendil, the faithful.

[Alan Sisto]

Right. So it's lots of faith, faith of the faithful, and it's the recalling of the faith of the faithful, you know, so it's. It is. Even if you had the sentence in English, it would be hard to diagram, Right?

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

So I feel like that's why it's so important we go through this in a philology fair. Now, speaking of Voronwe, you might remember the elf named, literally, Vronwe, he loyally and faithfully led Tuor to the hidden entrance to Gondolin. Well, then we get in the oath. Another word you might remember, nai, in the phrase nai Tiruvantes. You might remember it from the last line of Galadriel's Lament. Nai hiruvali Valimar nai elye hiruva. Now, it's translated there as maybe thou shalt find Valimar, maybe even thou shalt find it. But I gotta be honest with you. It's more than just maybe, maybe not. Right. You know, it's a 50, 50 chance, flip a coin, maybe you'll find Valimar. No, it literally translates as be it that. May it be that. Right. It's a wish. She's expressing a wish. May it be that you find Valimar. And here with Tiruvantes nai tiravantes. It means be it that they will guard it. Right. May it be that those that we're calling upon will guard the keeping of this oath. So that's why it's translated as in the keeping of those.

[Matt]

Iharar means they who are sitting upon. And Mahalmasan is the locative plural of mahalma, meaning throne.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Here it's referring to the valar, those on the thrones in the West. But we'll see it again as Mahamar, meaning all thrones, in reference to eru.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Well, you probably don't need to explain that Numen means West or that ERU means the one. Those are words that most of us know by now. Ea means is. And it was also the one word spoken by ERU to bring all of Arda into existence. Ea. Right. Let it be. It is. It's the present tense, the perfect existing tense of to be. Now, finally, tenoio is a compound. Tenna means up to or as far as. And oyo means an endless period or forever. We see that also in Oyolose, ever snow White or everlasting snow. One of the names for the holy mountain, Taniquetil. Thus, tenoio means up to endless, until forever. So a more literal translation of the oath might actually be something like this oath, settled now and always commemorates the glory of Starward's land and Elendil the Faithful's steadfastness. May they guard it who sit on the thrones in the West. Also eru, who is over all thrones forever. And man, what an oath it is. I can't wait to get to it.

[Matt]

It's so good. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I still want to know Eorl's oath. Like, you know, I know we'll get to that in the episode, but. Because then we'd have all the cool old English philology to do, too.

[Matt]

Yeah, I know. Oh, man. Man, it's kind of wild that, like, this is a section that's pretty well written out by Tolkien, but to just omit that oath and then we even, you know, we know that Eomer renewed it and so it's like somebody knew it.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Like, how does Amer know it? Like, who? Where's this written down that we know somewhere?

[Alan Sisto]

Or it's not so much probably written down because remember, the Rohirrim didn't really have a lot of written history.

[Matt]

Oh, that's true. Yeah, they don't.

[Alan Sisto]

It would have been an oral tradition. Would have been an oral tradition still. But was there anything in there word wise that you were like, oh, hey, I didn't know that. I mean, did you learn anything new today? Because I'm hoping folks did. This was kind of a deep dive into the Quenya construction of this oath.

[Matt]

I think in my mind, I had gone back and forth because I. I knew the. The ERU part above all. Thrones forever. The Thrones of the West.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Mahal Mah.

[Matt]

Yes. Yeah. That. I. I wouldn't have been able to conjugate that myself or translate that myself by any means. And I did wonder. And I. I wonder if I'd be curious, like, in, you know, people's feedback.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

If they also initially thought that that was in reference to, like, the Thrones of men.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Matt]

Like Thrones of the west, you know, because they. Men of the west and everything. Yeah, yeah. But. But this is a steward at this time, so, like, he's not on the throne.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly, Exactly. Yeah. I think for me, when I was first reading it, the. The words that popped to my mind were Elena. So, I mean, I knew that was referring to Numenor and Yalian, which I knew was remembrance. From the multiple Aux Knuts I've been to in the Aliye, obviously, Elendil, Verondo, I knew was Elendil the Faithful, and then Newman West, Eru. I think we all know who Eru is now. I actually didn't know 10 Noyo.

[Matt]

So you knew it all, but I.

[Alan Sisto]

Didn'T know it all. That's the whole point. I didn't know Terramaruva or Vanda. I didn't know Alkar. I'd forgotten about Alkar, even though there are other occurrences of Alkar. So it was good to see, obviously, the Common Speech version of it right there. I mean, I'm glad Tolkien gives that to us, because most folks aren't going to do a deep dive into the languages to get that. But I really enjoyed sort of taking the extra time to find maybe a more literal translation to sort of understand why it's translated as that in the Common Speech. And, yeah, it's just really fun. I'm beginning to enjoy the word nerdery a little more than I used to, that's for sure.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, Matt, we're mixing up the reading order a little bit today. I've got you actually reading the first one, so would you please lead us off?

[Matt]

Then Kyrion went up the stair with Eorl, and the others followed. And when they came to the summit, they saw there a wide oval place of level turf unfenced. But at its eastern end there stood a low mound on which grew the white flowers of Alfarin, and the westering sun touched them with gold. Then the Lord of Dol Amroth, Chief of those in the company of Cirion went toward the mound and saw lying on the grass before it, and yet unmarred by weed or weather, a black stone. And on the stone three letters were engraved. Then he said to Kyrion, is this then a tomb? But what great man of old lies here? Have you not read the letters? Said Kirion. I have, said the prince, and therefore I wonder. For the letters are Lambe, ando, Lambe. But there is no tomb for Elendil, nor has any man since his day dared to use that name. Nonetheless, this is his tomb, said Cirion, and from it comes the awe that dwells on this hill and in the woods below, from Isildur who raised it, to Meneldil who succeeded him. And so down all the line of the kings and down the line of the stewards. Even to myself, this tomb has been kept a secret by Isildur's command. For he said, here is the midpoint of the kingdom of the south, and here shall the memorial of Elendil the faithful abide in the keeping of the Valar while the kingdom endures. This hill shall be a hallow, and let no man disturb its peace and silence, unless he be an heir of Elendil. I have brought you here so that the oaths here taken may seem of deepest solemnity to ourselves and to our heirs upon either side.

[Alan Sisto]

Wow. Wow. Okay, so we begin precisely where we ended last week. And boy, well, we better hope this lives up to all the hype, huh? I mean, we were talking, you know. Hey, you're going to find out soon what the awe is all about.

[Matt]

There we go. So Kyrion heads up the stairs with Aorl, and their companions follow.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Now for Kyrion, that is his son Hala, who will eventually become steward after him, two members of the council, and most importantly, the Lord of Dolamroth. While for Aorl it's just three of his high ranking captains.

[Matt]

Yeah, and they arrive at the summit and it's. Well, probably not what anyone expected, but we, we get the sense. It is definitely gorgeous.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, and what a time of day to arrive too.

[Matt]

It's wide and flat, covered with grass. On the east side is a mound covered in what the text says are white flowers of Alpharin that are lit up golden in the setting sun.

[Alan Sisto]

Now recall that they are seeing this mound on the east end, so the sun in the west is setting behind them as they walk towards the mound. It must be a beautiful scene.

[Matt]

Yeah, but Alpharen, let's talk about this for a bit. This is an Important thing. The footnote tells us a few things, Alan.

[Alan Sisto]

It does?

[Matt]

What's it tell us?

[Alan Sisto]

The first thing that it tells us is that Alfaren is, as you might have suspected, expected the same flower as Cymbelmune. Which means it's also the same flower as Uilos.

[Matt]

Yeah. The footnote then sends us to one of my favorite bits in Unfinished Tales of Tuor and his coming to Gondolin. The gates where we read.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, I still want to see an adaptation of this. I want to see a visual adaptation of Tuor's journey through the Seven Gates. You can just make that whole thing an hour and a half long film. And I'll be right.

[Matt]

And just going gate at a time.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. 15 minutes per gate. Go right ahead.

[Matt]

Yeah. Now, they passed through the lines of the iron guards that stood behind the gate. Black were their mantles and their mail and long shields. And their faces were masked with visors bearing each an eagle's beak. Then Elimachil went before them, and they followed him into the pale light. And Tuor saw beside the way a sward of grass where like stars, bloomed the white flowers of Uilos, the evermind that knows no season and withers not. And thus, in wonder and lightening of heart, he was brought to the Gate of Silver.

[Alan Sisto]

I love that. The wonder and lightening of heart, the Alpharen, or in this case, the Ulas, sort of brings joy to his heart, you know, this has been a journey, you know, love that. I cannot wait to touch on that. Not next season. I think the season after that is when we do the Three Great Tales. So we'll do the Fall of Gondolin, we'll do Beren and Luthien, and we'll do the Children of Hurin. And 15 episodes on Tuor is going to be fantastic. Probably 10, because children of Hurin is going to be a lot longer.

[Matt]

Children of Hurin.

[Alan Sisto]

That might be half the season, actually. And then the other half split between Beren and Fall of Gondolin. Anyway, the footnote to that passage in Of Tuor and his coming to Gondolin is what gives us a bit more on the Alfarin here. That footnote says these were the flowers that bloomed abundantly on the burial mounds of the kings of Rohan below Edoras, and which Gandalf named in the language of the Rohirrim, as translated into Old English as Simblamune, I.e. evermind, for they blossom in all the seasons of the year and grow where dead men rest. The Elvish name Uilos is only given in this passage. But the word is found also in Aman Uelos, as the Quenya name Oyolose was rendered into Sindarin. In Kyriananeorl, the flower is given another Elvish name, Alfred. So there you go. We're explaining now through the footnotes what all these flowers are.

[Matt]

Now, cymbal muna is simply Old English for evermind. So the name resembles forget me not, even though the flower is clearly very different.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that's true. Uelos is translated ever snow. It's also the Sindern name for oylose, the mountain known as Taniquetil. But this word for it, though, Alfaren, is Sindarin, and it's best translated as immortal. It uses that element, firin, to fade or to die. We see that in Firiel, for instance. Right. And a negation. Although I have to say there were times where Tolkien changed his mind about Al being a negation and he had to work up some alternate etymologies. But that's a bit too deep a dive, even for us. So just go into that if you want to. Yeah.

[Matt]

Now, to complicate matters a bit more, the footnote also explains that the same word is used for an entirely different flower in the Return of the King.

[Alan Sisto]

That helps.

[Matt]

Yeah. So, so helpful. Not confusing at all. When this is when Legolas sings the golden bells are shaken of Malos and Alpharen in the green fields of Lebanon.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah, Thanks a lot. Because that's not the same Alpharen, but okay. Now, getting back to the text here and leaving the footnotes and the Alpharen aside, this is when the Lord of Dolamroth, who apparently ranks higher than Kyrion's son. Right. The text says that the chief of those, you know, who are accompanying him, he walks up to the mound to have himself a closer look.

[Matt]

Yeah. But before we get to what he's seen and what comes to this, we'll jump ahead to a quick sidebar about this guy that the text leads us to.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

In a moment, we see him referred to not as the Lord of Dull Amroth, but the prince.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right.

[Matt]

And the footnote here points out that the Lord of Dal Amroth held the title of prince.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. And it also gives us a lot more depth on this whole Prince of Dol Amroth thing. Now, we covered that in the postscript for. Well, we were going to cover that in the Postscript for episode 355, like we said we would in that episode, but then we completely forgot, and by We. I mean, me. So we ended up covering it in the P5 for episode 356 instead.

[Matt]

Yeah. So we won't cover it here other than to say that there appear to be two origin stories on how that came about.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[Matt]

And the PPP will go even more in depth on the Prince of Dol Amroth next season when you cover the history of Galadriel and Celeborn.

[Alan Sisto]

That is correct. There will definitely be more on the whole Dol Amroth situation of the dual origin stories. Now, back to the text. Here the Prince sees something that, interestingly, is not covered up by grass, even though it's been at least a quarter century since anybody's been here. Nobody's mowing the lawn here. And what he sees is. Is a black stone with three letters engraved on it. Now, you might remember a few episodes back, we mentioned the carving of R and then the ND rune and then R again, and that was to represent Arandur King's servant. And that was engraved on the stone that was brought by Barondir as a token to Eorl to prove the legitimacy of his message. We said we'd get back to an even more interesting combination of three letters engraved on yet another stone.

[Matt]

Yeah. Well, here we are, and we'll get to those letters shortly, whatever the letters are. At this point, the Lord of Dal Amroth asks if this is a tomb, and if so, who the heck's tomb is it?

[Alan Sisto]

Right. What in the world? Why is somebody buried up here?

[Matt]

Yeah, right. And Kyrion says, well, take a look. It says right there.

[Alan Sisto]

Haven't you read the letters? Right. Lambe, Ando Lambe. That's L. And then the N. D. And the prince is like, now, wait a minute, wait a minute. Elendil. A, there is no tomb for Elendil. And B, nobody's been bold enough to use his name in the 2,500 years since then.

[Matt]

Yeah. And Cirion says it is what it says.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, pretty much.

[Matt]

This is the tomb of Elendil himself.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. And that is the big secret, obviously, that for those of you who've never read this story we've been keeping from you for the last few episodes the hype we've been trying to build up about the Halifirion. It is where Elendil the Faithful is buried, the Numenorean exile who, along with Gil Galad, cast Sauron down. And if you're thinking, wow, that's pretty awesome, well, you're right. In the most literal sense of the word. It is the source of the awe that gives this place its name.

[Matt]

And it's why the Whispering Wood is so silent that a man would find himself speaking to his comrades in a whisper, as if he expected to hear the echo of a great voice that called from far away and long ago.

[Alan Sisto]

And probably about a foot higher than you, because Elendil was really, really tall.

[Matt]

Definitely super tall.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. So Gyrion explains a bit of the backstory, and we'll actually get to more of that next week. In the tradition of Isildur, that this tomb has been kept a secret all the way from Isildur through the line of the Kings and through the line.

[Matt]

Of the Stewards as well. For more than 2500 years, this secret has been kept. And now we know why it was only Kyrion's most trusted servants that he sent here to clear the path. And why he didn't want anyone tempted to use the path before he arrived.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. Now, in a brief preview of some of the details that we'll cover in more depth in next week's readings, we learn why this place was chosen. Isildur determined that Amon Anwar, the Hill of Awe, whatever it was called at the time, didn't have any awe, yet was the geographic middle of Gondor, and more on that in a second.

[Matt]

Isildur hallowed this place as a memorial to Elendil, commending it to the keeping of the Valar themselves for as long as the kingdom of Gondor exists.

[Alan Sisto]

And really, it is that historical and even spiritual significance of this place that leads Cirion to choose it for the location to take their oaths. He could have done this anywhere. Right. Meet me at the road by the mirroring stream and we'll just do it there. No. We did it here for a reason. This place is historically important, it is spiritually important, and it is a place that is appropriate for, in his words, I love this. The deepest solemnity. And not just for these two guys, but for their descendants. They're going to be the ones who abide by the oaths that they're about to take.

[Matt]

Yeah. After a very appropriate moment of silence here, Cirion indicates to Eorl that if he's ready, it's time. Time for you to take your oath.

[Alan Sisto]

I love the detail here about how he should do it in a way that is fitting, according to the customs of the Eotheod. And it does make me wonder what that means. Right. Do you have any speculation on what those customs might be?

[Matt]

I'm sure it'd be very old English, probably Anglo Saxon, Whatever it is, it's.

[Alan Sisto]

More of this, like, I really.

[Matt]

I know, right?

[Alan Sisto]

And this is yet another moment that I think, man, wouldn't this be an interesting story? You know, they talk about having the appendices and how they can make these films and adaptations. Can you imagine an adaptation of the story of the origin of the Rohirrim? Now, I know we're getting. Or we just got. Actually past tense. We just got the War of the Rohirrim. Right. And, and I understand that, you know, that tells a great story about sort of in the middle of all of that, right. It's the end of the first line and beginning of the second line of Kings. But what about the establishment of Rohan? Wow.

[Matt]

Yeah. Yeah. The thing there is, like, you know, how much with a lot of these, you know, side stories of side stories, I'll call them, but, you know, not like the proper Lord of the Rings itself. You know, the expanded kind of world is, is where the big question always comes, like, do you have enough within the pages of Lord of the Rings as the right stand right now? You know?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt]

At least for, for the time being. I mean, who knows if, if the Tolkien estate licenses.

[Alan Sisto]

That's true.

[Matt]

More.

[Alan Sisto]

That's true. The version in the appendices is much smaller than the version in Unfinished.

[Matt]

Exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, there's really nothing there.

[Matt]

That's the big kicker is, like, you know, you, like, technically, you could attempt to, but, man, you'd really be, you'd.

[Alan Sisto]

Be stepping on all the toes of.

[Matt]

Unconsciousness, cutting yourself off at the knees, you know.

[Alan Sisto]

Good point. I just, I just want to see this. And you're right. You, you'd have to have Unfinished Tales. You'd have to have the un.

[Matt]

You'd have to. But, man, if they, yeah, if they were ever able to license, like, okay, you can have this chapter of Unfinished Tales to go along with then. Yeah, I, I, I mean, you know, that, that battle would be massive. It would be massive, massively important. You know, maybe not, like, quantity of soldiers and everything compared.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, I think it would be, though, because you remember how big that army was that AORL brought down. It was the entire Eohera.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

And you know, we're speculating that it's somewhere in the neighborhood of 10 or 12,000 horses, you know, it's a massive force. Would have been.

[Matt]

I just mean, like, in terms of, like, Pelenor Fields with, you know, all those orcs and everything. Like, it would, it wouldn't quite hit that, and it'd be a bit more out in the middle of nowhere. You know, you don't have this city.

[Alan Sisto]

Huge city as a matter of calibrant. You'd have the orcs coming down from the mountains. You'd have, yeah, the aoth coming out.

[Matt]

Of the deeps and oh, it would be so epic.

[Alan Sisto]

But then we could see this moment. We could see a oral taking his oath in a way that is fitting according to the customs of his people. Yeah. All right, well, we'll come back to more of that right after the break. Matt When I think about businesses that are just blowing up, you know, selling through the roof like Allbirds shoes or Gymshark where I bought some stuff, the first thing that hits me is that they sell a great product. Or maybe it's a cool brand. But something that people often overlook is the business behind the business that makes selling. And for shoppers, buying simple. And for millions of businesses, that business is Shopify.

[Matt]

Fact is, nobody does their selling better than Shopify, the home of the number one checkout on the planet. Their shop pay boosts conversions by up to 50%. So way fewer carts are abandoned and more sales go.

[Alan Sisto]

So if you're looking to grow your business, your commerce platform has to be ready to sell wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling on their feed or in your store.

[Matt]

Businesses that sell more sell on Shopify.

[Alan Sisto]

Upgrade your business and get the same checkout that Gymshark uses. Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com pony all lowercase.

[Matt]

Go to shopify.com pony to upgrade your selling today. Shopify.com pony I can say to my.

[Alan Sisto]

New Samsung Galaxy S25 Ultra hey, find a keto friendly restaurant nearby and text.

[Matt]

It to Beth and Steve.

[Alan Sisto]

And it does without me lifting a finger so I can get in more squats anywhere I can. 1, 2, 3. Will that be cash or credit?

[Matt]

Credit.

[Alan Sisto]

4 Galaxy S25 Ultra the AI companion that does the heavy lifting. So you can do you get [e-mail] compatible select apps requires Google Gemini account. Results may vary based on input. Check responses for accuracy. Now. Soon we'll get back in time to hear the oaths themselves, or at least one of them. But before we do, we want to remind you that there is a lot more talk going on at the Prancing Pony podcast than just us.

[Matt]

The PPP has an amazing listener community. They're always coming up with great questions and discussions across all our social media spaces. Check out our common room on Facebook, our dedicated subreddit, Twitter and more on Facebook.

[Alan Sisto]

Just look for the Prancing Pony Podcast. Follow the page to get the news and episode drops, but you're going to want to join the group to get involved in some really great discussions.

[Matt]

Or if you prefer Reddit, find us there at R Prancingponypod On Twitter and Instagram, we're simply rancingponypod.

[Alan Sisto]

And if you want daily Tolkien content, please consider checking out today's Tolkien times on YouTube and all your favorite podcast apps. It's a short format daily show I put together. It's got everything from Tolkien Tuesdays to First Stage Fridays. Be sure to check it out at YouTube.com tolkientimes and follow TolkienTimes on all your social media.

[Matt]

But now it's time to get to some oaths Alan, take it away.

[Alan Sisto]

All right, Eorl then stood forth, and taking his spear from his esquire, he set it upright in the ground. Then he drew his sword and cast it up, shining in the sun, and catching it again, he stepped forward and laid the blade upon the mound. But with his hand still about the hilts, he spoke then in a great voice, the oath of Eorl. This he said in the tongue of the Eotheod, which in the common speech is interpreted, Hear now, all peoples who bow not to the shadow in the by the gift of the Lord of the Mundberg, we will come to dwell in the land that he names Calenardhon. And therefore I vow in my own name and on behalf of the Eotheod of the north, that between us and the great people of the west there shall be friendship forever. Their enemies shall be our enemies, their need shall be our need, and whatsoever evil or threat or assault may come upon them, we will aid them to the utmost end of our strength. This vow shall descend to my heirs, all such as may come after me in our new land, and let them keep it in faith unbroken, lest the shadow fall upon them and they become accursed. Then Eorl sheathed his sword and bowed, and went back to his captains. Cirion then made answer. Standing to his full height, he laid his hand upon the tomb, and in his right hand held up the white wand of the Stewards, and spoke words that filled those who heard them with awe. For as he stood up, the sun went down in flame in the west, and his white robes seemed to be on fire. And after he had vowed that Gondor should be bound by a like bond of friendship and aid in all need, he lifted up his voice and said, in Quenya Vanda Sinaterma Ruva Elena Norio al Karanyalian are Elendil Vorondo vronwe nai tiruvantesi harar Mahalmassen minumi or Ilya Mahalmar ea tenojo. And again he said in the common speech, this oath shall stand in memory of the glory of the land of the star and of the faith of Elendil the faithful in the keeping of those who sit upon the thrones of the west and of the one who is above all thrones forever. Such an oath had not been heard in Middle Earth since Elendil himself had sworn alliance with Gil Galad, King of the Eldar man.

[Matt]

Yeah, it's a heck of a passage.

[Alan Sisto]

It is, isn't it? I mean, just. Wow. Now you know why I want to see this on screen. I don't even know who I would cast as Kyrian and Aoral. That's a whole nother ball game.

[Matt]

And it's. It's also evidence of, like, why it should not be attempted. If you don't have the rights to this.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You need these exact words. You need these exact words. Yeah. 100%. Wow. Wow, what a scene.

[Matt]

So we start here with a Orel and some dramatic action. Before he even speaks a word, he grabs his spear and plants it in the ground. That's always a moment, you know, when someone does that, you take them seriously.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, you do.

[Matt]

Like, that's. Like, this is important, what's coming up.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right.

[Matt]

So then Kyrion, he. He draws his sword. He throws it up in the air, catching it before putting the blade on Elendil's tomb while still holding the hilts.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a skill, by the way, throwing your sword up in the air and catching it without, like, cutting your hand off. Which is undoubtedly what you and I would do.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah. No, Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I wouldn't even throw it up in the air. I know better.

[Matt]

No, that seems really risky.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, exactly. Certainty of death. The action, though, that he does here, it reminds me a little bit of Eomer on the pollen Normal as the standard of Elendil was revealed when the black ships rolled up. And then wonder took him and a great joy. And he cast his sword up in the sunlight and sang as he caught it. Oh, there's just. I'm getting goosebumps thinking about that moment and tying it to this moment as something that the Rohirrim of the Eotheod do at important times. It's just. Oh, it's such a potent moment. I love the respect that he's showing. That Is Eorl is showing to Elendil here. Right. The placing of the sword on his tomb, the laying of his hand on the hilt. To me, I wonder we know what the people of Gondor would know about Elendil. I mean, they would all be taught about how great he was.

[Matt]

Oh, yeah, for sure.

[Alan Sisto]

How much of the legend of Numenor and the legend of Elendil in particular, is known by the Eotheod, by the Northmen, by the Eotheod, by the Rohirrim.

[Matt]

Yeah, I don't know. I mean, we know that they were in some of the battles in the north with the Witch King, you know, so maybe around the campfire.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I mean, they've been friends with the. With the people of Gondor for a long time. I think we even talked about how they might have been involved in very early in the arrival of the exiles and the establishment of Arnor. How there were Men there. I think Don and I talked about in one of the episodes. But. Yeah, how much do they know? Clearly they look up to them. Right? I mean, he talks about the great people of the West. What a line that is. I know we'll get to more of that later, but still.

[Matt]

Yeah, I think, you know, he could have been revered, obviously, but maybe more mysterious than he was to the people of Gondor. You know, like they. They knew of him, but not to the extent that the Gondorians. Yeah, I mean, obviously, Aoro would pick up the. Pick up the hint here if.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. We're in this most sacred place. Yeah, he must be a pretty awesome guy.

[Matt]

I'm sure he's not sitting there like this.

[Alan Sisto]

Who's a lendhill?

[Matt]

Stupid hill? Like, what the heck buried this guy out in the middle of nowhere? He must have really sucked.

[Alan Sisto]

Geez. Wow, man, I'm glad we're recording this 2,000 miles apart. I don't want to be there when you get hit by lightning. Yeah, you're right, though. I think in a way, though, I wonder if that mystery makes him even more revered. Right. For Eorl, Elendil and the history of Numenor are like a myth to the people of Gondor. It's history. So I don't know. Of course, it's also so far back, it almost feels like myth. I mean, it was 2,500 years ago that Elendil did what he did.

[Matt]

Very long time.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes. I mean, I'm thinking back. What's 2,500 years before now? I don't care if it's History. It feels like myth.

[Matt]

That's B.C. yeah, exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. It's a very, very long time ago. So when Eorl speaks, he speaks in a great voice and in his own language. Now, as we know, Rohirric in the Lord of the Rings is represented by Old English, and its predecessor language, Gothic, was spoken by the Northman, which is, of course, a real world predecessor to Old English.

[Matt]

Yeah. And Tolkien's footnote for this explains that the Common speech translation is imperfect because Eorl's original oath was in ancient terms and made in the forms of verse and High speech that were used by the Rohirrim, in which Eorl had great skill.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay, okay. I gotta think more about that because that really leads me to think alliterative verse. Yeah, the forms of verse and high speech used by the Rohirrim, definitely alliterative verse. And that just makes me want to hear this oath even more. Man.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

No, I would have alliterative Old English here. How amazing would that have been? But the rest of the footnote dashes my hopes to that possibility. Christopher explains there seems not to be any other version of the Oath of Aoral extant apart from that in the Common Speech given in the text. So any Old English experts out there who could reconstruct a literative verse from this Common speech translation, please let me know. I would be eternally grateful. Man. That'd be fantastic. Also, I thought it was interesting in which Aorl had great skill. He's young, right? I mean, at this point, what do we just. I mean, we knew he was only 16 when he became king. I think he's 25 at this point.

[Matt]

Yeah, he's an impressive guy.

[Alan Sisto]

He is a very impressive guy.

[Matt]

I mean, well rounded, definitely in the. The top 25. Under 25 to look out for.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, he's on the COVID of Fast Company. Yeah, no doubt about it.

[Matt]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, he's not only an effective political leader, right. The Lord of his people, and doing it well. He's also very good militarily, a tactician that can then bring his forces down and employ them in a way to help save Kyrion and the army of Gondor. And yet he's also a bit of a poet. Right. I mean, he's able to do this oath in an alliterative verse in his High Speech, and he's able to do it with great skills. I just think it's really interesting.

[Matt]

Yeah. But the. The oath itself, it's just breathtakingly beautiful, even in the Common speech. So hearing it in Old English I. I feel like would have been amazing.

[Alan Sisto]

Especially a little diverse.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah. And in, in the oath, of course he begins by calling to witness every one of the free peoples of Middle Earth and then acknowledging the gift of Kalinarthon that Kyrion has offered. And he vows for himself and his people eternal friendship with Gondor.

[Alan Sisto]

And I love this. It's where we come back to that line I mentioned earlier. The great people of the West. There is a real deep respect that EORL has for these high men. And then the terms. The terms come back to what we talked about last week. Right. It's a military alliance and a mutual support treaty. But I love this. He's doing the oath first. He does not make this oath conditional on Kyrion promising the same thing.

[Matt]

That's a great point.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, for all he knows, Kyrion's going to be like. And in exchange we give this land. No, no. He knows that Kyrion will, but he hasn't yet. So he's stepping out in faith. He's trusting this man that he has an incredible respect for. Right. We've talked about this last week. I think loves him as a father. He's stepping out, trusting that Kirion will do that.

[Matt]

Yeah. Then he binds his heirs to the vow, lest the Shadow fall upon them.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Now, at first I was thinking this felt like a conditional curse, right. If they break the vow, then the.

[Matt]

Shadow will fall upon happens.

[Alan Sisto]

But I think what he's doing here is he's just recognizing that if Rohan were ever to not honor the agreement it would be because they were under the influence of Mordor and they would then likely become accursed. I mean, looking at the actual wording of it, right. Let them keep it in faith, unbroken lest the Shadow fall upon them and they become accursed.

[Matt]

I. Yeah, I kind of think of it as, you know, if. If there were a situation where they don't then it's kind of recognizing like the Shadow will fall upon them likely as a result of them not banding together with Gondor.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. Not so much a curse, but just a practical effect of making this decision.

[Matt]

Just acknowledging that, like, this is what's probably going to happen if we don't.

[Alan Sisto]

If you don't come and support the good guys then either you have fallen or. Or you will fall.

[Matt]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Yeah. Now, finally, at the end, he sheaths his sword and goes back to stand with his entourage. And now it's Kyrion's turn. And he definitely responds in style. And it says that he stands up to his full height. Now, keep in mind. Yeah, the Numenoreans were very tall. And so to their Gondorian descendants, Aragorn and Boromir are both said to be six, four or so.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, they're big guys.

[Matt]

They're.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah. No doubt about it. And I remember because Amir is also tall, I think he's actually described as being even a little bit taller than Aragorn.

[Matt]

I think so, yeah. I just recently did a video on Eomer and I can't. I think it is like six. Six. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And yet still built like a linebacker. I mean.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

This isn't some, you know, slender shooting guard. This is a.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

It's a big man. So, you know. Kyrion puts a hand on the tomb, and again, it's lending this sense of sanctity to the ceremony. He raises the rod of the Steward, so once again showing that what he's doing, he's doing in the authority of his role as the steward. And what he says here on the Hill of Awe fills people with awe. I mean, the combination of this place, right. The significance, historically and spiritually of this place, the time, the sunset, lighting up his white robes in what is essentially July or August, I believe. Believe. And then, of course, the content of his oath itself, it makes this maybe the most memorable thing that these people will experience in their lifetimes. This is a moment.

[Matt]

Yeah. And he returns. The vow of friendship and mutual aid. Again, we don't get the actual words here, but we get the gist of it.

[Alan Sisto]

I know. I would have liked to have heard how he would phrase that. How. How is he going to say, and Gondor will be there to help you. You know, how does that come about?

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah. And then he seals the oath with one of the longer pieces of Quenya prose in all the legendarium. And it's a beauty. So much so we spent the entire philology fair working our way through the entirety of the Quenya, which is why.

[Alan Sisto]

We don't need to do it here now, for the benefit of Aoral and his men, who almost certainly do not speak Quenya, he repeats himself in Westeron in the common speech. And this bears repeating. It's a huge deal that he puts the keeping of this oath not just in the Valar, but in ERU himself.

[Matt]

And that's why the text makes it such a big deal that no oath since the one sworn by Elendil himself with Gil galad more than 2,500 years ago.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that's just wild. Bringing in ERU is significant.

[Matt]

It's a big deal when you bring in ERU in an oath. Yeah, and the footnote here tells us that we wouldn't get another one like this for over 500 years when King Elessar comes back to this very place with King Eomer.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Because of course, even though he is the steward, the king has to renew this. Right? So. And I think we take a look at that next week in the tradition of Isildur. Now, let's mention that renewal of the oath briefly. We did talk about this event happening back in our second episode on the House of Eorl, but we didn't look in depth at the footnote because the rest of it has to do with that calling ERU to witness, how important that is. That footnote reminds us it had been held lawful only for the king of Numenor to call ERU to witness, and then only on the most grave and solemn occasions.

[Matt]

Okay, this is certainly a grave and solemn event, so that part works. But lawful only for the king is something else. So let's look at this more closely. Closely. The note reminds us that even though the line of the kings of Numenor died out or got buried under a mountain with Ar Pharazon. Ah, yes, Elendil Voronda, the faithful was descended from Tar Elendil, the fourth king, and was held to be rightful lord of the faithful, who had taken no part in the rebellion of the kings and had been preserved from destruction.

[Alan Sisto]

All right, then, so kings of Gondor, too. It's not just the kings of Numenor to call ERU to witness. We figure through Elendil the kings of Gondor are entitled to do this as well. But what about the stewards? Right? Is that one step removed from one step removed? Well, the note continues. Cirion was the steward of the kings descended from Elendil, and so far as Gondor was concerned, had as regent all their powers until the king should come again. Okay, so he seems to have the legal authority, but the fact that he did this must have absolutely blown folks away. I mean, 2,500 years since an oath had been taken in which the name of ERU had been called to witness. That's historically significant. Now, maybe Eorl and his men would not have been blown away by this because they wouldn't have known how special it was to call upon eru. But man, the Prince of Dol Amroth, the men of the Council, even his son Hallas, they must have all been shocked, right? At least surprised. But probably quite shocked and amazed by what Kirion did. Well, yep, the note tells us exactly that. Nonetheless, his oath astounded those who heard it and filled them with awe and was alone over and above the venerable tomb sufficient to hallow the place where it was spoken. Yeah, significant stuff right there. And there's more on this matter of authority or legitimacy in the nature of Middle Earth. In the rivers and beacon hills of Gondor under the entry for the mountain Haloferian. And we'll cover that in the P5 for now. Matt, would you take the next reading?

[Matt]

The bounds of the realm of Eorl were to be in the west, the river Angren, from its junction with the Adorn and thence northwards to the outer fences of Angrenost and thence westwards and northwards along the eaves of Fangorn Forest to the River Limlight. And that river was its northern boundary, for the land beyond had never been claimed by Gondor. In the east, its bounds were the Anduin and the west cliff of the Emynmuil down to the marshes of the mouths of Onaldlo. And beyond that river, the stream of the Glanhir that flowed through the Wood of Anwar to join the Onodlo. And in the south, its bounds were the Ered Nimreis as far as the end of their northward arm. But all those vales and inlets that opened northward were to belong to the Eotheod as well as the land south of the Hithiglir that lay between the rivers Angren and Adorn. In all these regions, Gondor still retained under its own command only the fortress of Angrenost, within which was the third tower of Gondor, the impregnable Orthanc, where was held the fourth of the Palantiri of the southern realm. In the days of Cirion, Angranos was still manned by a guard of Gondorians. But these had become a small settled people ruled by an hereditary captain. And the keys of Orthanc were in the keeping of the steward of Gondor. The outer fences, named in the description of the bounds of the Realm of Eorl, were a wall and dike running some two miles south of the gates of Angrenost between the hills in which the misty mountains ended. Beyond them were the tilled lands of the people of the fortress.

[Alan Sisto]

All right, so we skipped one paragraph, but we should take a quick look at it as it's the transition between the time of the oath and the evening. The oaths are finished, everybody's caught their breath and go wow. Did you hear him mention eru? Wow. And they head down the hill. Now, it was nearing sunset earlier, right? Remember, the sun was going down in flame in the west. It made his robes look like they were on fire. Now the shadows of evening are falling as they go. They get back to their camp, they have a bite to eat before they meet up again to go over the specific borders of the new realm. So, yay, another map episode. Yeah.

[Matt]

Yeah, let's dive in and look at the bounds of Rohan. Obviously, we can all picture where it is on the map of Middle Earth but we don't often see the borders talked about.

[Alan Sisto]

No, not really. Now, to the west, the border is, in theory, the Angren, that's the Isen, all the way to where the Adorn joins it. Now, if you look at the map, it's interesting because the Angren or the Isen takes this big curve due west after it goes past the fords of Isen. The Adorn runs west, northwest from the Eredim Rise.

[Matt]

So you end up with this sliver of land running to the west of the Gap of Rohan and reminder that the Gap is the area between the northern arm of the White Mountains about where Helm's Deep is and Isengard.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, if you're scratching your head trying to remember why you've never heard anything about this part of Rohan, I mean, it's not the Westfold, it's not the Eastfold, it's not the Wold. That's because it's really a disputed part of the kingdom of Rohan especially by the time we get to 3019 and the time of the War of the Ring. Now, when we get to the battles of the Fords of Isen in a couple of weeks, we're going to read this footnote and it explains beyond the Gap, the land between Isen and Adorn was nominally part of the realm of Rohan. But though Folquina had reclaimed it, driving out the dunlendings that had occupied it the people that remained were largely of mixed blood and their loyalty to Etteras was weak. Now, we don't have a precise date regarding Folquina's reclaiming of the area but we know that it took place sometime between the beginning of his reign as king which was third age 2864 and 2885, as that was when he sent men to Gondor and his twin sons died.

[Matt]

We saw a mention of that when we covered the second line of the Kings of Rohan back in episode 353 when we read. When he became king, the Rohirrim had recovered their strength. He reconquered the west march between Adorn and Isen that Dunlendings had occupied.

[Alan Sisto]

So it specifically mentions this exact region. Right.

[Matt]

But that footnote continues explaining why the loyalty of the people in that part of Rohan was weak. The slaying of their lord Freca by King Helm was still remembered. Indeed, at this time they were more disposed to side with Saruman. And many of their warriors had joined Saruman's forces. That happened in the third age 2754 almost 250 years after the founding of ROHAN and more than 100 years before Folquena reconquered the area.

[Alan Sisto]

So you slay the lord and that takes place 250 years after the day that we're looking at here. But 100 years after that, they're still disposed to side with Saruman because you killed Freca. All right, back to the map. The text says, thence westwards and northwards along the eaves of Fangor. Now, there's no note mentioning this as an error, but I kind of think it is. I mean, if we move from the Isa northwards and then along the eaves of Fangorn we're moving eastwards, not westwards. So I'm a little confused by the text that says thence westwards and northwards along the eaves of Fangorn. You can't go westwards along the eaves of Fangorn if you're going from Isengard. So I don't know. Either way, you can easily be forgiven for not picturing it clearly because that does seem like an error. The northern border of Rohan is the outer fence of Isengard and the southern eaves of Fangorn. But then all the way up to.

[Matt]

The limb light there are two rivers coming out of Fangorn Forest. When you look at it on the map both have their source in the Misty Mountains and flow east through the forest. The southern of the two rivers is the Entwash or Onadlo, as the text here refers to it. And it comes out of Fangorn before heading due south towards the White Mountains then heading east again and splitting into the fens of the Entwash as it joins the Anduin.

[Alan Sisto]

Right now, the northern of the two rivers coming out of Fangorn is the Limlight. That river is the southern bounds of the Field of Celebrant where we just saw the Eotheod come to the rescue of Gondor. It joins the Anduin just before the Undeeps. So Rohan includes all the land along Even the eastern side of Fangorn, all the way up to the limb Light.

[Matt]

The eastern boundary then, not surprisingly, is the Anduin itself down to the Emin Muil and its west cliff. So that means that the Emmin Muil themselves, even the half of them that are on the west side of the Anduin, are not in the realm of.

[Alan Sisto]

Rohan and they're also not in the realm of Gondor, for that matter. I mean, it's not it's realmless land. Gondor has no claim to it anymore. So from there, the eastern boundary is the brief stretch of the Anduin between Rauros and the mouths of the Entwash. Then the Entwash itself briefly until it reaches the Glanhir. That's the Maring Stream and we'll get to this whole name thing in a little bit there. The border goes south until it reaches the mountains.

[Matt]

The southern border is the White Mountains. From that point all the way back to the end of its northward spur that defines the Gap of Rohan directly south of Isengard.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right.

[Matt]

And any valley that opened to the north belonged to Rohan.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Now that we've defined the boundary of this gift that Kirion has given to Eoral and the Eotheod, we might want to take a look at all the names in this paragraph.

[Matt]

The footnote explains we're seeing all the Sindarin names but that most were given new names by the Rohirrim.

[Alan Sisto]

Tolkien writes these names are given in Sindarin according to the usage of Gondor. But many of them were named anew by the Eotheod, being alterations of the older names to fit their own tongue or translations of them, or names of their own making. In the narrative of the Lord of the Rings, the names in the language of the Rohirrim are mostly used. Thus Angren is Isen, Angrenost is Isengard. Fangorn, which is also used, is Entwood. Onodlo is Entwash, Glanhir is marring stream. Both mean boundary stream.

[Matt]

Christopher goes a bit deeper on the name Limblight, as we might cover that in the P5, but it's a bit of a digression at the moment.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[Matt]

We do learn, though, that this is the only place where we get the Sindarin names for the Entwash and the Mering.

[Alan Sisto]

That's Oned, Lo and Glan here. Now, Christopher Tolkien suggests we compare Onadlo to Onodrim, the Sindarin name for the Ents. That's how you get Onedlo because of lo. Right. If you think about Gwathlo as a river onadlo. So that's, you know, that's gonna be the Entwash. Right.

[Matt]

With the boundaries defined the text goes on to tell us that the only place within these borders that Gondor still held onto was Isengard home to what is called the Third Tower of Gondor. Orthanc.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. And it's here that we learn a bit about how Angurnast was ruled in its time as a fortress of Gondor. Now in this time, the time of this text, 2510, it's about 500 years before the War of the Ring. There are Gondorians there in Isengard. But they've remained in the area so long that they've become a settled people now. Over the next couple of hundred years. Spoilers. This settled people will intermingle with the Dunlendings and become more friendly to them than to the Rohirrim. Leading to the Dunlendings taking control of Isengard.

[Matt]

Which is why King Frealaf and the steward Beren welcomed Saruman to Isengard in 2579.

[Alan Sisto]

We also learned that when the text about the borders named the outer fences of Isengard as the boundary of Rohan they didn't mean the fortress wall. They meant a smaller wall and dike about two miles south of the fortress gates.

[Matt]

And that's because the land north of that smaller wall was the farmland for those Gondorians manning the fortress.

[Alan Sisto]

Which makes total sense. I mean, that's how you do it. It's like the Pollenor, right? Is all the farmlands for the city of Minas Tirith?

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And we'll go ahead and come back, talk about more of this after the break. To realize the future America needs. We understand what's needed from us to face each threat head on. We've earned our place in the fight for our nation's future. We are Marines. We were made for this.

[Matt]

Um, I think I just won my taxes. Yeah, I just switched to H and R Block in about one minute. All I had to do was drag and drop last year's return into H and R Block and bam. My information is automatically there so I.

[Alan Sisto]

Don'T have to go digging around for all my old papers to switch.

[Matt]

Nope.

[Alan Sisto]

Sounds like we just leveled up our tax game. Switching to H and R Block is easy. Just drag and drop your last return. It's better with Block. Folks, if you're enjoying the ppp, please consider supporting the show by joining the Fellowship of the Podcast. It's what gives me the time and resources to work on making this show better every season. Now when you join, you get the best discord community around. That includes live episode recordings, hangouts every month you get episode post scripts, you get ad free episodes, free merch and more.

[Matt]

You can also become part of our Questions After Nightfall episodes or even join us as a guest in the North Wing. So Please go to patreon.com prancingponypod to show your support and join the Fellowship of the Podcast.

[Alan Sisto]

Now you can always help us out by giving us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts and a rating on Spotify. And please recommend us to your friends.

[Matt]

But for now, let's get back to the reading. Alan, you want to take it away?

[Alan Sisto]

I do. It was agreed also that the great road which had formerly run through Anorien and Calenardhon to Athrad Angrit, the fords of Isen, and thence northwards on its way to Arnor, should be open to all travellers of either people without hindrance in time of peace, and its maintenance should from the marring stream to the fords of Isen, be in the care of the Eotheod. By this pact, only a small part of the wood of Anwar, west of the Meringue stream, was included in the realm of Eorl, but Cirion declared that the hill of Anwar was now a hallowed place of both people, temples and the Aorlingis, and the stewards should henceforward share its guard and maintenance. In later days, however, as the Rohirrim grew in power and numbers, while Gondor declined and was ever threatened from the east and by sea, the wardens of Anwar were provided entirely by the people of the east fold, and the wood became by custom part of the royal domain of the kings of the Mark, the hill they named the Holoferian, and the wood the Firienholt. In later times, the day of the oath taking was reckoned as the first day of the New Kingdom, when Eorl took the title of King of the Mark of the Riders. But in the event, it was some while before the Rohirrim took possession of the land, and during his life Eora was known as Lord of the Eotheod and King of Calenardhon. The term Mark signified a borderland, especially one serving as a defense of the inner lands of a realm. The Sindarin names Rohan for the Mark, and Rohirrim for the people were devised first by Hallas, son and successor of Cirion but were often used not only in Gondor but by the Eotheod themselves.

[Matt]

Beyond just defining the boundary, Cirion and Eorl come to terms about the great road that runs through both their realms. Reminder that this road runs from Minas Tirith originally Minas Anor, but it's been Minas Tirith for 500 years at this point.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I don't think anybody.

[Matt]

Yeah, nobody. Nobody's.

[Alan Sisto]

Now I've got Istanbul, not Constantinople, running through my mind.

[Matt]

Oh, yeah. So this. This road, it runs along the White Mountains to the fords of Isen then north to cross the Gray Flood at Tharbad and passes by Bree before reaching Fornost.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, it's a huge road, and it's an important road. And the importance of it means that both Gondor and the Eotheod agree that it needs to be open to all travelers from Gondor or Rohan and that maintenance of the road in Rohan, which is why from the Marring Stream to the fords of Isen is the responsibility of the Rohirrim.

[Matt]

And speaking of the fords of Isen, we get an interesting footnote here where Tolkien gives us the Sindarin name Athrad. Angren.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, we see Athrod in at least one other place, Sarn Athrad, the ford across the River Gelion where the Dwarf Road went from the Blue Mountains into East Belerian. Now, the Battle of Sarn Athrad took place there in first age 503. That was the one where Beren led the Elves of Ossirion against the Dwarves that had sacked Menegroth and taken the Nauglamir and stabbed Thingol in his knees until he bled to death. So Athra. Okay, so kind of the root of Athra, it means to cross to and fro. So, yeah, makes sense to use that word for afford.

[Matt]

But Tolkien also points us to a spot in the history of Galadriel and Celeborn where we read, but the Great North South Road, which was the chief route of communication between the two kingdoms except by sea, ran through it from Tharbad to the fords of Isen. Ethride Engrin. So is it Athrad Engren or Ethrid Engren? Tolkien explains it seems then that both singular and plural forms of the Name of the Fords existed.

[Alan Sisto]

It's interesting, though, that when you change the singular of ford to the plural, right, when you go from Othra to Ethrid, you also change the Isen. You go from Angren to Engren. That's interesting, because I guess it's because the fords are plural. Even though it's still a singular river, it's not the fords of the Isens. The fact that it's plural changes the way you name the singular. That's interesting, but that makes sense. I mean, it's a ford or it's fords. I mean, it's still either way, it's the place you cross the river that's really what matters. Then we come to a special clause in the gift. It's related to the place where they took their oaths. I mean, sure, only a small part of the Furion Wood Firion Holt, Wood of Anwar. Only a small part of that forest was included in the gift to Eorl. But Kidrion makes it clear. The Hill of Awe itself is a hallowed place for both realms. For Gondor and the Mark.

[Matt]

Yeah, and both nations will share in the duty to protect and maintain it. But that only lasts a little while. At least in practice. Gondor faced more and more threats and fell into decline. So Rohan took over as the sole source of guards and maintenance. Specifically Rohirrim from the East Fold.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right.

[Matt]

And so it becomes, kind of unofficially at least part of Rohan right now.

[Alan Sisto]

As we'll read next week Cirion will later move the tomb of Elendil back to Minas Tirith. So it turns out that hill isn't going to be quite as important to Gondor anymore after all.

[Matt]

Not so much. Yeah. Now we get to some calendar stuff. The first day of this new kingdom. Yes, it is my favorite. The first day of this new kingdom is defined as the day the oaths were taken. We don't know when this day took place but can we make an educated guess?

[Alan Sisto]

We should at least try, right?

[Matt]

I guess we'll give it a shot. Right. The last firm date we have is the date that Eorl and his men arrived at the Field of celebrant. The 15th day of Viresse.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, later, after the battle as Ciaran and his army are heading south accompanied by Eorl and an aerate of riders Cirion puts Calenardhon in Eorl's hands and says to come back in three months time. So let's allow for two weeks after the battle. That puts us at the very end of Eresse for Cirion's farewell for now and then three months time would get us to the end of Kermiye.

[Matt]

But when we actually get to the moment, we do get a name of the month and it's not Kermi?

[Alan Sisto]

No.

[Matt]

After the shadow of the wood, the sun seemed hot and bright, for it was the month of Urime, yet the crown of the hill was green.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay, now Urume is the month right after Karmiya. So it must have taken a bit longer after the battle, maybe needed to allow a little more than two weeks. Or maybe the three months time was a bit extended. I mean, even if it just been a day or two later, it would have already been Urme. But in either case, I don't think we're far into Urma. Maybe a week. So I don't know. This is where we're totally guessing. Pulling a number out of my ear, the seventh day of Urame is a guess, but that would correspond to July 30th. So that's when I'm going to celebrate Rohan Day.

[Matt]

There you go, July 30th. But really, any time in the first half of Urime would fit with the events.

[Alan Sisto]

But clearly, I mean, unless they took a long time after the battle, it's sometime early in Ur. So whatever day it is in early Urume, it is also the day when Eorl becomes king of the Mark of the Riders.

[Matt]

But it's certainly not the day that the kingdom is known as Rohan. In fact, it's quite some time before his entire people make it down from their lands in the north to take possession of the land.

[Alan Sisto]

So Eorl is actually never known as the King of Rohan. He's got his old title, Lord of the Eotheod, and his new one, King of Calenardhon.

[Matt]

And finally we get into a bit more word nerdery here, so I'm immediately going to pass it over to Alan.

[Alan Sisto]

Thank you, Matt. Well, the text tells us something that we've talked about before on the show. The word mark in this context means a borderland, especially one that provides defense for the inner lands of a realm. This comes from Old English merk, meaning boundary, limit, sign, landmark. Now, the original Germanic word that was the source for Old English was also used by the Romans, and it ended up coming back to us again in English as March. From Old French marsh, boundary, frontier.

[Matt]

In this case, the inner lands of a realm are Gondor, of course.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

But the land of the Mark will itself have a mark. The west march. Yeah, this is the land we talked about earlier, between the rivers Isen and Adorn. And we also get clarification on the names of Rohan and Rohirrim, don't we?

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. It's Cirion's son Hallas who becomes steward in 256757 years from the time of the oath, who comes up with the Sindarin names for the Mark and its people? And we're told that those names were used not only by Gondor to refer to their friends, but by the Eotheod themselves. And that's where we get a whole lot of wonderful word nerdery in the footnotes. But we'll have to take a look at that in the postscript for this episode, so be sure to check that out at the Fellowship of the podcast on Patreon. For now, though, Matt, would you go ahead and take us to our last reading for the day the day after.

[Matt]

The oath taking, Cirion and Eorl embraced and took their leave unwillingly. For Eorl said lord Steward, I have much to do in haste. This land is now rid of enemies, but they are not destroyed at the root. And beyond Anduin and under the eaves of Mirkwood we know not yet what peril lurks. I sent yestereve 3 messengers north riders brave and skilled in the hope that one at least will reach my home before me. For I must now return myself, and with some strength. My land was left with few men, those too young and those too old, and if they are to make so great a journey, our women and children, with such goods as we cannot spare, must be guarded, and only the Lord of the Eotheod himself will they follow. I will leave behind me all the strength that I can spare, well nigh half of the host that is now in Calenardhon, some companies of horsed archers there shall be to go where need calls, if any bands of the enemy still lurk in the land but the main force shall remain in the northeast, to guard above all the place where the Balchoth made a crossing of the Anduin out of the brown lands. For there is still the greatest danger, and there also is my chief hope, if I return, of leading my people into their new land with as little grief and loss as may be if I return, I say but be assured that I shall return for the keeping of my oath, unless disaster befall us, and I perish with my people on the long road, for that must be on the east side of the Anduin, ever under the threat of Mirkwood, and at last must pass through the vale that is haunted by the shadow of the hill that you name Dol Guldur. On the west side there is no road for horsemen, nor for a great host of people, and wanes even were not the mountains infested by orcs. And none can pass few or many, through the Dwemerdin, where dwells the White lady and weaves nets that no mortal can pass by the east road will I come as I came to celebrant. And may those whom we called in witness of our oaths have us in their keeping. Let us part now in hope. Have I your leave? Indeed you have my leave, said Kirion, since I see now that it cannot be otherwise. I perceive that in our peril I have given too little thought to the dangers that you have faced and the wonder of your coming beyond hope over the long leagues from the north. The reward that I offered in joy and fullness of heart at our deliverance now seems little. But I believe that the words of my oath, which I had not forethought ere I spoke them, were not put into my mouth in vain. We will part then, in hope.

[Alan Sisto]

Man, I love that these two close men going back to the beginning of the passage. They have such a deep admiration, respect, even love for each other. They don't want to go. Right. I mean, it's. Unwillingly they took their leave. Unwillingly. But it is time. Erol has got a lot to do now that this is his kingdom.

[Matt]

Yeah, we may have defeated the Balcoth and the orcs, but it's not like it's perfectly safe yet. There are still threats near Mirkwood and we've got to clear the way.

[Alan Sisto]

Indeed. In fact, AORL sent three riders home the day before, hoping that at least one of them is going to make it back before he does. Though I imagine, frankly, that all three are hoping to get back before he does. I don't think they. Wait a minute. You're sending me as a messenger because you're sending three of us. Because one of us might die. So it's time for me to go. After all, I left my land with very little in the way of defense. I brought all my able bodied fighters to. Well, to save your backside, Kyrion.

[Matt]

Yeah, And I can't exactly ask the young boys and old men to protect our wives, children and goods on the long journey from the North. And why would they come if I'm not there to lead them?

[Alan Sisto]

After all, that's a fair point, right? He's the lord. Yeah.

[Matt]

So he decides to leave close to half his forces there to protect the new kingdom.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Now, that includes some mounted archers that will serve in the role of sort of like a hunting force. They're going to chase down any of these remaining Balchoth or Orcs. But most of the forces are going to be stationed near the Undeeps. Now, Eorl describes it the place where the Balhoth made a crossing of the Anduin out of the Brown Lands. We just call it the Undeep because we know what we're talking about.

[Matt]

Not only is that the most likely point of any future attacks, it's also the place where he'll cross the Anduin with the Eotheod into their new land. And when he mentions this, he says, my chief hope, if I return, of leading my people. And he knows that's caused a raised eyebrow here.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I mean, he acknowledges if, but the if isn't about his desire to return or his willingness to keep his oath. Oath? No, he acknowledges the if is only related to the danger on the road there or back. And instead, he reaffirms his intent to keep his oath unless disaster befall us and I perish with my people.

[Matt]

This is where he points out the specifics of the risk of that journey back down from the north. That's gonna have to be on the east side of the river, which means constantly facing threats from Mirkwood and even worse, threats from Dol Guldur itself as they near the southern edge of Mirkwood.

[Alan Sisto]

That's because the west side of the river just isn't an option. A, there's no road, not just for horsemen, but certainly not for huge group of people traveling with big wagons. B, the orcs infest the Misty Mountains. So there's going to be just constant threat, even more, apparently, than the threat you'd get from Mirkwood. And C, we can't pass through Lothlorien.

[Matt]

Yeah. Now, hold on a second here. Isn't this the same White lady that just helped Aorl get back, you know, get past Dol Guldur with the Aotheod? And it is. But as Christopher Tolkien dryly observes in the footnote to this, Eorl appears to have been unconvinced by the token of the White Lady's goodwill.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I really love the way that Christopher puts that right. Unconvinced. Now, this fear of Galadriel is something that seems to continue with the Rohirrim. If you remember Eomer's words to the three hunters. First he encounters them. Aragorn says that they have passed through Lothlorien, and the gifts in favor of the lady go with us. Well, that's when Eomer's eyes harden, and he says, then there is a lady in the Golden Wood, as old tales tell, few escape her nets, they say. But if you have her favor, then you also are net weavers and sorcerers, maybe. Well, that explains why Gimli wanted to chop his head off. But, yeah, he was pretty tick. But let's talk about this. Could Aorl have traveled on the west side? Is the lack of roads really just enough to prevent them from doing this? I feel like that's the case. How do you bring thousands, like, people?

[Matt]

The main reason? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it does, you know, the. The Orcs of the Misty Mountains, you realize how much of a isolated, safe haven Lorian is among that route. You know, like, it's like, yes, that's the friendlier side, you know, when you're dealing with it.

[Alan Sisto]

With the Orcs.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah. But. But yeah, it's. It's just kind of, you know, that's. That's an isolated thing at the south. So. So all those miles north of Lorian, you've got to worry about the orcs on the.

[Alan Sisto]

If you're on the east side of the Anduin, or, I'm sorry, if you're on the west side of the west side.

[Matt]

Right, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Which is why you have to travel on the east, combined with the fact that you've only got roads, because without roads, you're going to be going slower.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah. I think, you know, Eorl kind of comes to here. He's like, well, I came down the east road the first time, so that's how I'm going to return.

[Alan Sisto]

That's fair. And then, without necessarily understanding the nature or the significance of Kyrion calling upon the Valar and ERU himself to witness their oaths, Eorl says something really powerful here. May those whom we called in witness of our oaths have us in their keeping. I just.

[Matt]

I like that.

[Alan Sisto]

Absolutely adore that. Yeah. Such a good line.

[Matt]

Yeah. And then, you know, in a theme that we see so often in Tolkien, he seeks to part now in hope and asks Cirion for his leave, which.

[Alan Sisto]

Of course, Cirion grants. Not that he necessarily needs to. I mean, I get it. EORL's asking to be polite. It's not like EORL is subordinate to Cirion, and Cirion can say, no, you must stay. It's just politeness. But Cirion does grant it, of course.

[Matt]

More than merely granting leave, Cirion now acknowledges the risks that Eorl took and will have to take to do all this. Risks he hadn't previously considered. You know, so much so that he feels like the Gift of Calenardhon is actually insufficient in comparison, which is saying.

[Alan Sisto]

Something, because it's a pretty amazing gift. But. Yeah. And even though now that he understands the dangers, Kyrion feels like he didn't do enough. He does believe that the oath that he spoke was precisely as it ought to have been. And I love this note that he says he hadn't thought about the words of the oath prior to speaking it. This happens so many times in Tolkien, I honestly can't begin to count. But how many times do we see a character say something that they hadn't thought or considered before speaking?

[Matt]

Yeah, to the point that the text will often call out the fact that the words seem to have been given to the person from the outside.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, all the time.

[Matt]

Yeah. And here. Here's one example. Then Baron, looking up, beheld the eyes of Luthien. And his glance went also to the face of Melian. And it seemed to him that words were put into his mouth. Fear left him, and the pride of the eldest house of men returned to him. And he said, my fate, O King, led me hither through perils such as few even of the elves would dare. And here I have found what I sought not indeed, but finding I would possess forever. For it is above all gold and silver, and beyond all jewels. Neither rock, nor steel, nor the fires of Morgoth, nor all the powers of the elf kingdoms shall keep from me the treasure that I desire for Luthien. Your daughter is the fairest of all the children of the world.

[Alan Sisto]

And I'm just seeing thingol now with a shotgun, you know? Right, like you want to dig off my porch. That's right. But there are so many other moments I'm thinking here in Unfinished Tales. If we go back to our and his coming to Gondolin, which we looked at earlier. When he reaches the last gate, Tuor says to Ecthelion, if the messenger of the Lord of Waters goes by that door, then all those who dwell here will follow him. Lord of the fountains hinder not the messenger of the Lord of Waters. And we read that Voronwe and all those who stood near looked again in wonder at Tuor, marveling at his words and voice. And to Voronwe it seemed as if he heard a great voice, but as of one who called from afar off. But to Tuor, it seemed that he listened to himself, speaking as if another spoke with his mouth. It's just it happens all the time. I mean, Frodo in She Loves Lair, right? He's reminded of the vial of Galadriel the starglass Sam. And you know, he cries out, aya, Erendel, Eleni on Ankalima. And we read he knew not what he had spoken for. It seemed that another voice spoke through his Clear, untroubled by the foul air of the pit. There's so many of these, I don't even. Can't even begin to scratch the surface.

[Matt]

Yeah. And I kind of thought of Frodo invoking the name of Elbereth, you know, the Ring race. And he clearly has no idea.

[Alan Sisto]

No.

[Matt]

What he's just done. Yeah. And that the fact that. That, you know, was.

[Alan Sisto]

Was the most dangerous to him was the name of Elberth. Right.

[Matt]

Yes. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Wow. Yeah, that's another good one. There are so many of those, and I know a lot of them are in the Silmarillion, you know, in the. In these older mythologies and older histories, but there's a lot of. In the Lord of the Rings too. Sam has a couple moments like that. Yeah. It's just. It's clear that there are times where words are given to characters by the Valar or even by ERU himself.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah. And back to Kyrion. The words of the oath were put into his mouth and not he believes in vain. Therefore he says, we will part then in hope.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, because we have to skip something, we skipped the final paragraph here.

[Matt]

It's suggested that much of what the historians, the writers of these chronicles have said, EORL and Kyrion spoke in these moments, were words that they'd carefully considered.

[Alan Sisto]

That makes sense. I mean, they both knew that this moment would be a time of significant historical importance. They had to know their words, their actions were going to be written down, studied, passed on. They were going to be looked at. Yeah, exactly. We're making history here. And they knew that. But the text tells us that it is certain that what Kirion said here was true. The oath was inspired and came to him from outside, presumably from the Valar, at the very least. Or I have to say, given the mention of his name, ERU himself, I don't even think Manwe would have included Eru's name in inserting the oath in Kyrion's mouth.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah, that's a great point. I have to say, it's very helpful to think that if you're going into a situation knowing that whatever you say is going to be written down and studied, like, that's a great time to have words put into your mouth by.

[Alan Sisto]

It is. Yeah, I could use that. I could use that. Just in the hopes that Somebody's still going to listen to this podcast 20 years from now when I'm gone, Right. Can you throw me some words? You know, be nice.

[Matt]

Yeah. And we can know that this is true in large part because of the character of Kyrion himself. Described as brave, humble and generous man, the noblest of stewards of Gondor.

[Alan Sisto]

I tell you what, I get the feeling that Kyrion is underrated. I mean, Yeah, I think so. He's kingly. He's not just a steward. He's. He's the kind of person you'd want as a king in terms of his, his courage, his humility, the generosity of giving the entire land of Calenardhon, and yet also sort of that, that political brilliance of recognizing, hey, these people are our friends. They are in an area where they're getting overpopulated.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

We've got this land that's pretty empty and has been since the plague. We could really use our friends nearby, but they could also use this land. Like, this is a win win. He's politically savvy, but not manipulative.

[Matt]

Yes. That's the key, is that it's never a manipulation.

[Alan Sisto]

Self serving. No.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, it may benefit him, but it benefits them.

[Matt]

But it's not. Yes. It's not the purpose. Yeah, I think, I think you're, you're dead on there. I think he is an underrated character. And in this story, AORL gets a lot of the claim. He's the one that does all the stuff, you know, but you see, the, the generosity and the, the character of Kyrion and I, it speaks volumes.

[Alan Sisto]

He's a great character. I really do love Kyrion. The mail that I offered in joy and fullness of heart at our deliverance now seems little. But I believe that the letters in my bag, which I had not looked at ere I handed them to you, were not put into my bag in vain. We will part then in hope. All right, Matt, what does Barthleman have for us tonight besides abject apologies from me?

[Matt]

Yes. All right, We've got a message from Will in North Carolina. He says, I've read through all of Tolkien's books, including history, Middle Earth, what should I read next? Any other recommendations that you enjoy as Tolkien fans? I think there's a couple ways we could take that and yeah, there are, you know, we can, we can kind of think about this as, as people interested in learning more about Tolkien and his writings or like, yeah, beyond Tolkien. Like if you're, if you're looking for.

[Alan Sisto]

Something, if you like Lord of the Rings.

[Matt]

You're gonna like something else.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah. All right, well, let's. I'll start with the sort of. You want to learn more about Middle Earth or you want to at least learn more about Tolkien? Yeah, you've already read History of Middle Earth. Okay, well, then you need to learn more about Tolkien himself. Maybe I would start with. Ooh, okay. I would start with On Fairy Stories, if you haven't read it already. So Tree and Leaf. That's going to include On Fairy Stories and Mythopia. These are both things that Tolkien wrote that will help, I think, explain a bit about the way he approaches fantasy in general. I think that'll really help you. I would also add Beowulf, monsters and the critics to that. Now, whether that means you also want to read his translation of Beowulf, that goes off into another category. Right. The sort of. The non legendarium one works.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And I guess that's another category, too. You got books about Tolkien and I'm going to tell you my holy triumvirate there to start with. But then you've also got the other. The works that Tolkien wrote. So.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay, let's look at the books that people wrote about Tolkien. Right.

[Matt]

Okay. Yeah, that's a good one. So we've got the Carpenter biography.

[Alan Sisto]

Yep.

[Matt]

Which he didn't say specifically. So if you haven't Will definitely Letters of Tolkien. Just because it wasn't explicitly set. Because that does have some Middle Earth.

[Alan Sisto]

That has a lot, actually. Yeah. It answers a lot of questions.

[Matt]

Yeah. So, yeah, those are both Humphrey Carpenter works. You know, I also think of John Garth, Tolkien and the Great War 100%.

[Alan Sisto]

That's on my list. That is a must read if you want to learn more about Tolkien. Because I like Carpenter's biography, but it is, first of all, it has a few errors, but it's also a little bit broad and covers a lot of his life, whereas Tolkien and the Great War covers a much narrower area, but in much more depth. And it's just a fantastic.

[Matt]

It's a very formative time, too. Like it's a. Yeah. And then Tom Shippy, of course.

[Alan Sisto]

Real quick, though, before we get to Tom Shippey, who I know you're going to mention, because if you didn't, I was going to have to reach through this screen and. And choke you from there. We had John Garth on the show, I think, in episode 44. I don't remember. It was first season, late in the first season.

[Matt]

I don't know how you keep the episodes straight. There's so many.

[Alan Sisto]

I don't. Some of those ones we reference more often than others. I'd look it up for sure, but somewhere in that.

[Matt]

Is that your letter 131?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, exactly. We mention it all the time. We do. But we did have John on to talk about Tolkien and the Great War. It was a great interview and you'll learn more about the book there. But. Yeah. Tom Shippy. Matt, what would you suggest from Tom?

[Matt]

I think Author of the Century is probably the number one on my list. And then he's got Road to Middle Earth as well.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, Road to Middle Earth. He also has a number of essays that he's written. One of the best collections of those is called Roots and Branches. It has a lot of really good essays in it. Yeah, but he's written a bunch.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Verland, Flieger. You really can't go wrong reading Splintered Light, A Question of Time or Interrupted Music in particular. Those would be the ones that I would recommend most highly. Yeah, there are a lot of others.

[Matt]

Yeah. You've got other stuff too, with strong connections to Middle Earth, like Hammond and Skull's work.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, Hammond and Skull for sure. I mean, you've got the Reader's Companion, which you're not going to read separately because that's just the annotations to the Lord of the Rings. Though you should definitely have that with you when you read the Lord of the Rings. But the Chronology and Guide, it's a three volume set that's going to give you a lot of information on Tolkien. We've already named Shippey, Garth and Flieger. Those are sort of the three must read Tolkien scholars. In my mind. There are a lot of others, don't get me wrong, so many others. And I feel bad almost for not mentioning everybody else whose books are on my shelf. But in a shorter segment to answer that question, there are going to be just a few names you leave off the list, but anything by those three. What else though, Matt, in terms of books about Tolkien or books about Middle Earth.

[Matt]

Yeah, I mean there's, there's obviously the Annotated Hobbit or History of the Hobbit. He didn't say specifically.

[Alan Sisto]

That's true. If he's read history. Middle Earth. Has he read History of the Hobbit? Good question.

[Matt]

Yeah. Yeah. So that's a. That's one you definitely don't want to miss. Yeah, because it's. It's one of those, like. He did such a good job with that.

[Alan Sisto]

Fantastic job.

[Matt]

Sits alongside history, Middle Earth.

[Alan Sisto]

It really really does.

[Matt]

And then, you know, the.

[Alan Sisto]

You mentioned the annotated Hobbit, Douglas Anderson. That's a really good resource. Yeah.

[Matt]

Yeah, that's great. You know, the other. The other way to kind of look at this question is, okay, so what if for the people who are more, you know, like, oh, I want. I want more nonfiction. You know, like, I love Middle Earth. I love Lord of the Rings. I love these stories because it's this created world. What other, you know, fantasy, sci, fi, what, you know, whatever.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, what other. What other authors do I want to read?

[Matt]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay. Because I was thinking we were maybe.

[Matt]

Yeah, because it doesn't say, like, so.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm not sure that's fair. What else to read.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, wow. I was thinking first, what about Tolkien's non legendarium works?

[Matt]

Oh, yeah, of course, we could reference those as well.

[Alan Sisto]

We've already mentioned Mythopia and on fairy stories, which are in Tree and Leaf, but I've got to say leaf by Niggle. 100% by Niggle, because that's almost an autobiography of Tolkien about the tree. Smith of Wootton Major, also autobiographical, really, which.

[Matt]

Those are all in Tales from the Perilous Realm. Right.

[Alan Sisto]

I don't know about Smith. I know Smith is in a separate volume that I own, but I think it might be included in that. I don't know. Smith of Wooten Major, Leaf by Niggle. You could read some of the other.

[Matt]

Ones, too, like Adventures of Tom Bombadil.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, I was thinking of, like, rover random and Mr. Bliss and stuff like that. Letters from Father Christmas. But, yeah, certainly the Adventures of Tom Bombadil. There are so many things that he wrote. Really, you can't go wrong. It depends. Do you want to know more about him? Do you want to know more about what he can write? Or do you just want to know what other stories might you like? Because they have fabulous world building inspired by Tolkien. I guess we could look at those then. Matt, what are some fantasy things or maybe other genres if you can think of anything.

[Matt]

Yeah, so this is really fresh in my mind because as we're recording this, I just got back from Dragonsteel Nexus, which is a convention for the works of Brandon Sanderson. And just like over the course of the last six months, I've read a ton of his stuff and have become obsessed with it. So. Okay, I'm. I'm a bit biased toward that at the moment, but, yeah, he's so. He's got kind of this interconnected world called the Cosmere, and it has different series that are gradually overlapping where minor characters and minor, you know, pieces are overlapping. But you can read them each individually and be totally fine. So if you. If you're more the sci fi kind of person, you could start with Mistborn, which is a really, really cool series. Like, the first one is still my favorite of his works. Or if you like the high fantasy stuff, then his Stormlight Archive books.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay. I have heard really good things about those.

[Matt]

Yeah, it's really good. I'm kind of obsessed at the moment.

[Alan Sisto]

I would actually do a couple of different things. I would definitely read Ursula K. Le Guin's Earthsea Cycle. I think that's a good one. If you want absolutely fantastic world building, that's a really good example of that. But I also might dive into some sci fi. I know this sounds. This isn't going to come as a surprise for me because I love the foundation trilogy from Isaac Asimov, but it has some similar things, not linguistically at all. He doesn't do anything with language the way that Tolkien does. But in terms of world building and history and something that spans millennia, he does a fantastic job of doing that. And I feel like if you really enjoyed that sort of aspect, like understanding, oh, let's go back to the time of the trees and see how that one thing that happened, you know, thousands of years ago impacts this moment when Aragorn's talking to Frodo. That's something that the foundation series might provide for you.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

So I would say Ursula K. Le Guin, Earthsea and Isaac Asimov foundation would be two.

[Matt]

I wondered. Yeah, I kind of expected. We've talked enough about the TV series and how it is similar, different and stuff. I figured that would be one that you would pick out. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yeah, yeah. That's right. Because we talked about how it's another example, like Rings of Power, where it's an adaptation that doesn't stay faithful to the source material, but unlike Rings of Power, does it fantastically.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Instead of sort of meh, you know. Yeah, yeah. Of course, it also has Lee Pace. So fans of Thranduil and Will love the Emperor in the TV show from Apple tv. Wow, man. That's such a big question. What other books? I think, though, looking at it in the way we did with three different categories. Right. Books about Tolkien and Middle Earth by other authors. So that's where you're looking at Shippy, Garth and Flieger as well as others. I'm going to throw one out for Tom Hillman, actually. Pity Power and the Ring. I Think is the time. Pity Power and Frodo's Ring. I don't remember. Pity Power in the One Ring.

[Matt]

Pity Power in the Ring.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah. Fantastic book. I mean, if you like reading Verland Flieger, you'll love that book because it's actually written very much like the way she writes, in the sense that you will read a paragraph two or three times because you're like, wait a minute, did he just connect this to that? And mind blown. You know, I guess I should. I mean, my publisher will kill me if I don't pitch our own book. Why We Love Metal.

[Matt]

Oh, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

It does not belong on the same shelf as anything by those authors.

[Matt]

I was. I was going to pencil it in between the shippy books is what I was going to do.

[Alan Sisto]

Give me a break. We don't belong in the same breath, let alone on the same shelf. But it is a fun book. But it also answers, in a way, this question. Shawn put together the chapter on sort of the end of the Legendarium that included the bit about what to read next. And so he talks about this as well and includes a number of books about Tolkien, books deeper in the Middle Earth. I don't think we talked about other genres, so that was an interesting way of putting it. But yeah, if you like Tolkien, you'll like these other authors. Maybe it's the world building, maybe it's the languages, maybe it's the magic or the elves, but whatever it may be, there will be something for you. Good stuff. Good question. Thanks for that one. Well, folks, that wraps it up for another episode of the Prancing Pony podcast. Please be sure to come back next week when Carry on looks at the map and realizes things have changed as we conclude the story of Koral.

[Matt]

Now, folks, Alan and I want to thank the members of Team PPP editor Jordan Rannells Barlow and Becca Davis, social media manager Casey Hilsey, Event and Patreon community coordinator Katie McKenna, graphic artist Megan Collins and website guru Phil Dean.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, please take a minute to check out the prancingponypodcast.com it's where you're gonna find show notes, outtakes, Prancing Pony Ponderings, our online storefront where you can get PPP merch, including all the great episode artwork that Megan's done for the PPP over the last two seasons.

[Matt]

You'll also want to visit visit our library page. The Prancing Pony podcast is, after all, a podcast about the books. So if you're interested in a book we've mentioned on the show, you'll find a link for it in our library. We do get a small amount of compensation when you make your purchase, and we thank you for that.

[Alan Sisto]

Indeed we do. But we also want to thank our patrons at the Kirdan's contribution tier. I'll start with demay in Alaska, Chad in Texas, Lance in New Jersey, Paul in Colorado, Joseph in Michigan, Kathy from North Carolina, Carlos in California, Brian in the uk, Jerry from Washington, Joe in Washington, Irwin from the Netherlands, Ben in Minnesota, Anthony in Texas, Zaksu in Illinois, Sarah in New Jersey, Joshua in Massachusetts, Lucy in Texas, Keith in Alabama, and Erica in Texas.

[Matt]

There's also Carson in Oklahoma, Vivian in California, James in Massachusetts, Ann in Kentucky, Shop Sean in New Jersey, Mason in California, Maureen from Massachusetts, Olivia in London, Robert in Arizona, Nick in Wisconsin, Lewis in South Carolina, Thomas in Germany, Craig in California, Bailey in Texas, Kevin in Massachusetts, Julie in Washington, Bruce in California, Joe in Maryland, Nathan in Arizona, and Kevin in Pennsylvania. Thank you all so very much for your support.

[Alan Sisto]

Indeed. Thank you.

[Matt]

You make sure you don't miss any episodes of the Prancing Pony Podcast. Subscribe now through Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or your favorite podcast app.

[Alan Sisto]

One last thing. As always, don't forget to send your thoughts, comments, and most of all, the words not put into your mouth in vain to bartleman@the prancingponypodcast.com and if you.

[Matt]

Want your voice literally heard, well, just send us audio of your question. Visit pod inbox box.com prancingponypod to record your question for us. Please be sure to still email the question to Barlaman, though.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, even though Barliman's been a lot more reliable lately, there is still a lot of mail for us to sort through. We'll try to get to you just as soon as we can. As always, though, this has been far too short a time to spend among such excellent and admirable listeners.

[Matt]

But until next time, this is the end. We are going. We are leaving now. Goodbye.