361 – Ford Every Stream

Summary

The Prancing Pony Podcast - Episode 361: "Ford Every Stream"

Release Date: March 2, 2025
Hosts: Alan Sisto and Matt Marchese

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Introduction

[01:11]
Alan Sisto welcomes listeners to Episode 361 of The Prancing Pony Podcast (PPP). He introduces Matt, dubbed the "Nerd of the Rings," who takes the lead for this episode following the poignant news of the fall of the Man of the West in Hornburg.

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Meanwhile Elsewhere in Middle-earth

[02:15 - 05:03]
Alan reintroduces a beloved segment, "Meanwhile Elsewhere in Middle-earth," which hadn't been featured since March 4, 2024. This segment coincidentally aligns with the episode's release date of March 2nd, mirroring the timing of the Second Battle of the Fords of Isen.

Key Discussions:

• Frodo, Sam, and Gollum's Journey:
  Matt delves into Unfinished Tales, discussing Frodo, Sam, and Gollum's treacherous path through the Dead Marshes. He quotes the text vividly:

  "Four nights they struggled on through the weary, pathless land. The air, as it seemed to them, grew harsh and filled with a bitter reek that caught their breath and parched their mouths."
  — Matt [03:24]

• Intertwining Timelines:
  Alan marvels at Tolkien's mastery in weaving concurrent narratives, highlighting the simultaneous events at the Fords of Isen and Frodo's perilous journey. He emphasizes the richness of books three and four for their intricate storytelling.

  "It is just amazing how many things are going on at the same time."
  — Alan Sisto [05:03]

• Gandalf, Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli's Passage:
  The discussion shifts to the group's movements towards Helm's Deep, with Matt reading passages that paint a vivid picture of their approach:

  "A wind swept across their path rushing through the bent grasses. Suddenly Shadowfax stood still and neighed."
  — Matt [07:29]

Notable Quote:

"But of course, Frodo and Sam aren't thinking about at this moment... it's also awe-inspiring but awful."
— Alan Sisto [05:03]

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The Second Battle of the Fords of Isen

[05:03 - 40:57]
The primary focus of the episode revolves around the Second Battle of the Fords of Isen, a pivotal moment in Rohan's defense against Saruman's forces.

Key Points:

1. Leadership Dynamics:

   • Erkenbrand of Westfold:
     Assuming command after Theodred's death, Erkenbrand strategizes to fortify Helm's Deep rather than defend the fords directly.

     "He judged rightly that invasion was imminent but that Saruman would not dare to pass on eastward to attack Edoras while the fortress of the Hornburg was unreduced if it was manned and well stored."
     — Matt [26:32]

   • Grimbold vs. Elfhelm:
     A strategic disagreement arises between Grimbold and Elfhelm.

     • Elfhelm's Proposal:
       Advocates abandoning the fords to prevent Saruman from flanking Rohan's defenses.

       "Saruman could clearly send forces down either side of the Isen as suited... Elfhelm therefore advised that the forge should be abandoned."
       — Alan Sisto [40:23]

     • Grimbold's Stance:
       Prefers maintaining a stronghold at the fords, citing tradition and uncertainty about Saruman's full force.

       "He feels like Saruman could send a large force rapidly... Grimbold was obliged to withdraw across the Isen."
       — Matt [43:56]

2. Execution of Plans:

   • Compromise:
     The two leaders decide to split their forces, with Grimbold manning the western fords while Elfhelm positions his cavalry to monitor and counter any flanking maneuvers from Saruman's army.

   • Battle Commencement:
     Saruman's forces launch a two-pronged attack, overwhelming the fords despite Rohan's valiant defense. Grimbold, recognizing the futility of continued resistance, initiates a strategic retreat to Helm's Deep, ensuring the survival of most of his men.

Notable Quotes:

"I'm here, man."
— Matt [13:57]

"Grimbold and Elfhelm were sleepless, awaiting the dawn and dreading what it might bring."
— Matt [22:46]

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Outcome and Aftermath of the Battle

[41:48 - 80:02]
The battle concludes with Rohan's initial defenses being breached, but not without significant losses inflicted on Saruman's forces. Grimbold's tactical retreat ensures that the majority of Rohan's men survive to bolster the defense at Helm's Deep.

Key Discussions:

• Tactical Analysis:

  • Elfhelm's Superior Strategy:
    Matt and Alan debate the effectiveness of Elfhelm's strategy versus Grimbold's traditional defense, leaning towards the former as more strategically sound given the circumstances.

    "I actually like Elfhelm's plan a lot better. It makes sense."
    — Alan Sisto [42:42]

  • Grimbold's Valor and Leadership:
    Although Grimbold's initial resistance was heroic, his inability to adapt quickly under overwhelming pressure highlights the tension between personal valor and strategic necessity.

• Gandalf's Intervention:
  Gandalf's swift actions post-battle play a crucial role in rallying Rohan's forces, emphasizing his pivotal influence in the war effort.

• Geographical Significance:
  Detailed exploration of the terrain around the fords and Helm's Deep underscores the strategic importance of these locations in the broader conflict.

Notable Quotes:

"All went ill."
— Matt [48:28]

"If we can't beat him, let's at least try to take as many of them with us as we can."
— Alan Sisto [56:35]

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Conclusion and Epilogue

[80:02 - 87:26]
As dusk falls, the grim reality of Rohan's situation becomes evident. Despite Grimbold's efforts, Saruman's forces continue to press their advantage, setting the stage for the eventual siege of Helm's Deep.

Key Points:

• Gandalf's Swift Movement:
  Gandalf races to Isengard to coordinate with Treebeard and the Ents, signaling the impending intervention that would turn the tides in Rohan's favor.

• Commander Fates:

  • Erkenbrand:
    Successfully reinforces Helm's Deep, ensuring a robust defense against the looming threat.

  • Grimbold:
    Although he survives the battle of the fords, his ultimate fate at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields is a poignant reminder of the cost of war.

  • Elfhelm:
    Plays a crucial role in the subsequent defense of Rohan, demonstrating strategic foresight and leadership.

Notable Quote:

"He found it deeply powerful because it's Theoden himself that takes the steps. He's the one who hears what Gandalf says and decides to act."
— Alan Sisto [11:31]

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Listener's Mailbag: Speculative Fun

[87:26 - 100:51]
The episode concludes with a light-hearted segment addressing a listener's speculative question about Bilbo Baggins' extended life in Valinor and his potential interactions with the Valar.

Key Discussions:

• Bilbo's Interviews:
  The hosts humorously speculate on who Bilbo might interview first, pondering interactions with figures like Tulkas and the Valar, while acknowledging the limitations of such interactions.

Notable Quote:

"He could trust that it's probably self-serving in whatever way."
— Alan Sisto [88:06]

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Notable Quotes with Attribution and Timestamps

• "It is just amazing how many things are going on at the same time."
  — Alan Sisto [05:03]

• "But of course, Frodo and Sam aren't thinking about at this moment... it's also awe-inspiring but awful."
  — Alan Sisto [05:03]

• "I'm here, man."
  — Matt [13:57]

• "All went ill."
  — Matt [48:28]

• "If we can't beat him, let's at least try to take as many of them with us as we can."
  — Alan Sisto [56:35]

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Final Thoughts

Throughout Episode 361, Alan and Matt provide an in-depth analysis of the Second Battle of the Fords of Isen, juxtaposing strategic decisions with character motivations. Their discussions offer valuable insights into Tolkien's intricate world-building and the complex military strategies employed by Rohan.

Listeners are encouraged to explore further episodes for more detailed examinations of Rohan's command structure and the broader implications of Saruman's campaign against Middle-earth.

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  Check out Tolkien Times on the PPP YouTube channel for daily Middle-earth insights.

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  Become a patron at Patreon.com/prancingponypod to access exclusive content, ad-free episodes, and more.

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Thank You to Our Patrons:

A heartfelt thanks to all our patrons, including Demay, Chad, Lance, Paul, Joseph, Kathy, Carlos, Brian, Jerry, Joe, Irwin, Ben, Anthony, Zaksu, Sarah, Joshua, Lucy, Keith, Erica, Carson, Vivian, James, Ann, Sean, Mason, Maureen, Olivia, Robert, Nick, Lewis, Thomas, Craig, Bailey, Kevin, Julian, Bruce, Joe, Nathan, and Kevin for their unwavering support.

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Questions or Comments?

Send your thoughts and strategies for defending the Fords of Isen to [e-mail] or submit audio questions at podinbox.com/prancingponypod.

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Until Next Time: Stay tuned for next week's deep dive into Rohan's command structure and the ensuing battles that shape the fate of Middle-earth.

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This summary captures the essence of Episode 361, providing listeners and enthusiasts with a comprehensive overview of the discussions, insights, and critical analyses presented by Alan Sisto and Matt Marchese.

Transcript

[Alan Sisto]

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[Matt]

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[Alan Sisto]

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[Matt]

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[Alan Sisto]

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[Matt]

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[Alan Sisto]

Good evening little masters, and welcome to episode 361 of the Prancing Pony Podcast, where Matt of the Nerd of the Rings assumed command of the episode when news of the fall of the man of the west reached him in the Hornberg.

[Matt]

Yeah, like I want that responsibility.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a fair point.

[Matt]

Folks, pull up a bench in the common room and join us. I'm Matt, the Nerd of the Rings, and I'm here with the man of the west who did not at once proceed to the battlefield, Alan Sisto.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, that's because I just gave my field command to you, Matt. Folks, join us as Grimbold and Elfelm disagree on a lot, actually, as we continue our time in Unfinished Tales and the Battles of the Fords of Isen.

[Matt]

Folks, no matter how you arrived, you're all welcome Here in the common room at the Prancing Pony Podcast, we are reading and talking our way through Middle Earth with plenty of speculation and bad jokes along the way.

[Alan Sisto]

We love our deep dives into the lore, discussing our favorite themes, and a.

[Matt]

Whole lot more, but we try to keep it light and fun, like a couple friends chatting at the pub. And we're glad you've joined us, and.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm sure you'll be glad you joined as well. But before we get to tonight's chapter discussion, it's time for a segment we haven't seen in, well, almost precisely a year. The last time we did this Segment on the PPP was March 4th of 2024. And what segment is that? It's time for us to see what other things are happening In Meanwhile Elsewhere in Middle Earth, and in what is one of the more amazing coincidences that we've honestly had here in more than nine years on the PPP, it turns out that this episode is releasing on March 2nd, and we're covering the second battle of the Fords of Ice and which took place on March 2nd.

[Matt]

That, like, never happens.

[Alan Sisto]

How is that? Wow, I couldn't have planned that if I wanted to. And frankly, I took that as a sign that we absolutely have to do a Meanwhile elsewhere in Middle Earth second. So, Matt, tell me what's going on in the Lord of the Rings at the time that Elf, Helm and Grimbold are facing inevitable defeat at the fords.

[Matt]

Well, let's start by going back to book four, chapter two, the Passage of the Marshes.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh yeah.

[Matt]

Frodo, Sam and Gollum are nearing the end of their road through this delightful place.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yes. Five out of five. Yeah.

[Matt]

Yes. Really? Airor should probably make this a national park some.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I, I want this to be like a. A three day walking tour, you know? Yeah, I think it'd be great. Yeah. Fantastic.

[Matt]

Yeah, I'm sure it does lovely things for your skin. Now, in the text it says, when day came at last, the Hobbits were surprised to see how much closer the ominous mountains had already drawn. The air was now clearer and colder, and though still far off, the walls of Mordor were no longer a cloudy menace on the edge of sight, but as grim black towers, they frowned across a dismal waste. The marshes were at an end, dying away into dead peats and wide flats of dry, cracked mud. The land ahead rose in long shallow slopes, barren and pitiless, towards the desert that lay at Sauron's Gate. While the gray light lasted, they cowered under a black stone, like worms shrinking, lest the wing terror should pass and and spy them with its cruel eyes. The remainder of that journey was a shadow of growing fear in which memory could find nothing to rest upon. For two more nights they struggled on through the weary, pathless land. The air, as it seemed to them, grew harsh and filled with a bitter reek that caught their breath and parched their mouths.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, I love this segment because it reminds me once again of how incredible Tolkien was at weaving these really disparate threads and putting together a timeline. It's fascinating to me because here we are at the Battles of the Fords of Ice, and in this case today we're talking about the second battle. There's so much going on here at the fords, and yet at the same Time here we get exactly what's going on with Frodo and Sam and Gollum as well. And it is just. I mean, I say fantastic, but it's also awful. I mean, what a terrible place to be.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

But it is an amazing thing that Tolkien does in weaving this. This many threads together in the story. I think that's got to be one of my favorite things about books four and books three and four, I should say, is the way those things are woven together.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

But, wow, what a vivid picture this is, isn't it?

[Matt]

Yeah. Oh, my gosh. It's. Yeah. Some of the. The most vivid imagery, I think. Yeah. This is. There's a reason the dead marshes, like, stick out to people. It's because of the way it's described.

[Alan Sisto]

100%. It's wild. Because, you know, Frodo and Sam aren't thinking about at this moment at least they're certainly not thinking about the Battle of the Fords of Ice. And they might be thinking about Mar and Pippa every now and then. And they do. Right. We read about how every once in a while, their thoughts, you know, and certainly Mary and Pippin, their thoughts go to Frodo and Sam. But it is just amazing how many things are going on at the same time. And of course, the other thing that's going on at the same time when that day came for the Hobbits it was the same day as it was for Gandalf, Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli as we read in book three, Chapter six, the King of the Golden Hall. And that's where we're going to go next. Slowly in the east, the dark faded to a cold gray red shafts of light leapt above the black walls of the Emen Muil. Far away upon their left, dawn came clear and bright. A wind swept across their path rushing through the bent grasses. Suddenly Shadowfax stood still and neighed. Gandalf pointed ahead. Look. He cried. And they lifted their tired eyes. Before them stood the mountains of the south, white tipped and streaked with black. The grasslands rolled against the hills that clustered at their feet and flowed up into many valleys still dim and dark, untouched by the light of dawn winding their way into the heart of the Great Mountains.

[Matt]

So we see. Legolas with his super sight tells them about the walled town and the Great Hall. That he can see what, to your.

[Alan Sisto]

Elvish eyes, see everything?

[Matt]

Everything.

[Alan Sisto]

I see through to your soul.

[Matt]

And then, of course, Gandalf explains that the hall is medusled and that Theoden, the King of the Mark of Rohan lives there. But of course, as we know, all is not well with the king and not just because his son Theodred died last episode.

[Alan Sisto]

So that is a bummer.

[Matt]

I mean that is a bummer. I mean, that's clear.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

That's going to ruin your not brightening his day.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, no.

[Matt]

But after being stopped at the gates, Gandalf and company are led to the hall where we meet the amazing Hama.

[Alan Sisto]

I love Hama. Hama was so great. One of my highlights of that.

[Matt]

Yeah, I wish we had more time to revisit that whole thing. But you can listen to that in episode 204 if you want to refresh your memory on that.

[Alan Sisto]

Absolutely. And Hama, of course, our discussions about him. I don't know. This is like four years ago now. It feels like it's yesterday. I loved this chapter and all three episodes that Sean and I got to spend there. But of course I can't fit three episodes into an intro segment. So we're going to keep going. The four travelers make it into the hall and that's where we read this. At the far end of the house, beyond the hearth and facing north towards the doors was a dais with three steps. And in the middle of the dais was a great gilded chair. Upon it sat a man so bent with age that he seemed almost a dwarf. But his white hair was long and thick and fell in great braids from beneath the thin golden circlet set upon his brow in the center upon his forehead shone a single white diamond. His beard was laid like snow upon his knees but his eyes still burned with a bright light glinting as he gazed at the strangers. Behind his chair stood a woman clad in white. At his feet upon the steps sat a wizened figure of a man with a pale wise face and heavy lidded eyes.

[Matt]

Ah, the heavy lidded eyes of Grima Wormtongue.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes.

[Matt]

Yeah. Now we've talked about his influence over the king last episode and we know that even now he's trying to delay. He wants to keep Rohan from trying to defend itself against Saruman's attack. He's the reason why Theoden isn't exactly welcoming to Gandalf and company. No, you could to put it lightly. Yeah, but Gandalf has plans for the weakened and downtrodden King Theoden. Doesn't he, Alan?

[Alan Sisto]

He does. And I'm going to read what those plans are now. Theoden, son of Thengel, will you hearken to me? Said Gandalf. Do you ask for help? He lifted his staff and pointed to a high window. There the darkness seemed to clear and through the opening could be seen high and far a patch of shining sky. Not all is dark. Take courage, Lord of the Mark, for better help. You will not find no counsel have I to give to those that despair. Yet counsel I could give and words I could speak to you. Will you hear them? They are not for all ears. I bid you come out before your doors and look abroad. Too long have you sat in shadows and trusted to twisted teeth, details and crooked promptings. Slowly, Theoden left his chair. A faint light grew in the hall. Again the woman hastened to the king's side, taking his arm and with faltering steps the old man came down from the dais and paced softly through the hall. Wormtongue remained lying on the floor. They came to the doors and Gandalf knocked open. He cried, the Lord of the Mark comes forth. I love that. I mean, it's not quite as, let's say, cinematic as the exorcism in the Jackson films.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

I find it so deeply powerful because it's Theoden himself that takes the steps. He's the one who hears what Gandalf says and says, you know what? I am going to get up. I am going to hear you. You know, these you say, these words are not for all ears. I'm going to come out with you. He takes the steps that he needs to begin his own healing. Under Gandalf's encouragement, it's not a unilateral action. And then, of course, once outside and overlooking his realm, we read. It is not so dark here, said Theoden. No, said Gandalf. Nor does age lie so heavily on your shoulders as some would have you think. Cast aside your prop from the king's hand. The black staff fell clattering on the stones. He drew himself up slowly as a man that is stiff from long Bending over some dull toil. Now, tall and straight he stood and his eyes were blue as he looked into the opening sky. Dark have been my dreams of late, he said. But I feel as one new awakened. I would now that you had come before Gandalf. For I fear that already you have come too late. Only to see the last days of my house. Not long now shall stand the high hall which Brego son of Eor built. Fire shall devour the high seat. What is to be done?

[Matt]

What is to be done?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. I don't know. I got a few ideas.

[Matt]

Yeah, maybe number one on the checklist is to free Eomer.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Get Aomer out of Jail. Yeah, let's do that. Let's start there.

[Matt]

Let's maybe get rid of this worm tongue guy. Yeah. Oh, and by the way, get your people ready for war.

[Alan Sisto]

War. Yes. Now.

[Matt]

And. And that's, you know, that. That pretty much checks off what he actually does, you know, in a single day, you know, going from a man almost entirely under the influence of Saruman via worm tongue to the mighty king of Rohan going to war. And it's quite the turnaround. Like, we, you know, we covered this before. He's no spring chicken, but he springs right into action here nicely.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Yes, he does. Yeah. I love it. I don't think we're gonna get to that exact scene, but I love the moment when they come across. Actually, I think we get to it in the episode tonight, not so much in the intro, but when they encounter the writer Korl, and he's like, amber, Amberman, you got to tell the king, you know, we're in trouble. And the king's like, yeah, I'm here, man.

[Matt]

I'm here.

[Alan Sisto]

You're what? What? Like, you're.

[Matt]

Oh, dang.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, man, I didn't think you could. What? I love that. And I just love that his presence inspires his man. It's, you know, like we talked about last week when we talked about his malady, possibly, and how, you know, how he had been well loved before his illness. The implication being that maybe there was some loss of respect from his people. He regains that in spades. It's. It's wonderful. Yeah.

[Matt]

And we'll run into him on his way to war later tonight.

[Alan Sisto]

That's correct.

[Matt]

But that's not all that's happening over in Fangorn. The Ents have been holding an Entmute for the last three days while Mary and Pippin wait with Bregalad, better remembered as Quick Beam. Let's go to book three, chapter four, Treebeard, for what's happening at this same time. The third day broke bleak and windy. At sunrise, the Ents voices rose to a great clamor and then died down again. As the morning wore on, the wind fell and the air grew heavy with expectancy. The Hobbits could see that Bragalad was now listening intently. Although to them, down in the dell of his Ent house, the sound of the moot was faint. The afternoon came and the sun, going west towards the mountains set out long yellow beams between the cracks and fissures of the clouds. Suddenly they were aware that everything was very quiet. The whole forest stood in listening silence. Of course, the Ent voices had stopped. What did that mean? Bragolad was standing up erect and tense, looking back northwards towards Durndingle. Then with a crash came a ringing shout. Rahumra. The trees quivered and bent as if a gust had struck them. There was another pause and then a marching music began like solemn drums. And above the rolling beats and booms there welled voices singing high and strong.

[Alan Sisto]

We come, we come with roll of drum Tarundarunda rundarom.

[Matt]

The Ents were coming ever nearer and louder rose their song.

[Alan Sisto]

We come, we come with horn and drum.

[Matt]

Tarunarunarunarom.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, man, I'm getting chills. Those are some seriously high quality ant voices, Matt. Man. Oh, so good, so good. And of course, the Ents and their arrival. I find that there's again, it's the threads. I mean, Theon getting healed at the very time that these guys are fighting to protect the fords of ice. And at the very moment that Frodo and Sam are arriving at Mordor at the very. I mean, it's just incredible.

[Matt]

It's a busy time.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, it is a really, really busy. And I can't believe I thought for sure that we'd done. Meanwhile, elsewhere, Middle Earth on this day. And I couldn't find that we did. I. I saw we did one on March 3rd, but I didn't see that we'd done one on March 2nd. And there's so much going on on this day, it's amazing.

[Matt]

Interesting. That makes me wonder if you've done one for the first, because yesterday now was Aragorn's birthday, so happy belated birthday, Aragorn.

[Alan Sisto]

But then they're just wandering through the fields of Rohan, you know.

[Matt]

But that is how you know that he's actually 88 at that point in the film.

[Alan Sisto]

88.

[Matt]

Tom Shippy. I know some shipping lets us know.

[Alan Sisto]

Love that you're talking about the talk that he does.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah. Oh, it's fantastic.

[Alan Sisto]

So great, man, that that talk is one of those.

[Matt]

You really want to be picky about the details.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes. Oh, so good. I love that talk. Sean and I talked about that all the way back when we did our episode on the Lord of the Rings films. Because it's his discussion of Tolkien's words in letter 210 in that talk from script to screen or something like that is the name of the talk. It's where he takes script to screen.

[Matt]

I think, is the book that.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yes, you're right, the books.

[Matt]

But yeah, it's some. It's something about adaptation.

[Alan Sisto]

It's basically about adaptation and I'll try to remember to put a link to it in our show notes. But that's where he comes up with what we've coined the Shippy test. He didn't call it that, it's the shippy test, but he was basically taking Tolkien's words. The whole thing about the camp canons of narrative art, can it be wholly different? And I love the way he says it. That's all very well, professor, but how different can they be?

[Matt]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

So good. I absolutely love that. Yeah. Well, the ends. So they are indeed off to Eisengard and. And Pippen is just taken back by the speed of the INT's decision. I mean, sure, it took three days, but now that they've decided there's. They're off to war with no delay. I mean, they do what they need to do. And Treebeard explains that to Pippen quicker than I expected. Indeed, I have not seen them roused like this for many an age. We Ents do not like being roused, and we never are roused unless it is clear to us that our trees and our lives are in great danger. That has not happened in this forest since the wars of Sauron and the Men of the Sea. It is the Orc work, the wanton hewing raw room without even the bad excuse of feeding the fires that has so angered us and the treachery of a neighbour who should have helped us. Wizards ought to know better. They do know better. There is no curse in Elvish Entish or the tongues of Men bad enough for such treachery. Down with Saruman. I miss Treebeard, man. He was great. So later that evening, at the same time as Grimbold's men are making their retreat and we're going to talk about that tonight, we read of the ends that as they kept going south, Pippin looked behind. The number of the Ents had grown. Or what was happening where the dim, bare slopes that they had crossed should lie. He thought he saw groves of trees, but they were moving. Could it be that the trees of Fangorn were awake and the forest was rising, marching over the hills to war? He rubbed his eyes, wondering if sleep and shadow had deceived him. But the great gray shapes moved steadily onward. There was a noise like wind in many branches. The Ents were drawing near the crest of the ridge now, and all song had ceased. Night fell and there was silence. Nothing was to be heard save a faint quiver of the earth beneath the feet of the Ents and a rustle the shade of A whisper as of many drifting leaves. At last they stood upon the summit and looked down into a dark pit. The great cleft at the end of the mountains. Nan Curnir, the valley of Saruman. Night lies over. Isengard said Treebeard Man, I love that the Ents and Treebeard's so fantastic here. Yeah, just love that. And again, this is all happening at the exact same time. So not too far from where they're looking into the valley of Saruman into to Isengard just a few miles away where the fords are there's a pitched battle going on and the Rohirrim are fighting for their lives. And at that same moment they had and has just expelled Wormtongue and taking his sword up and he's gonna fight and he's getting his men ready to go. And at the same moment Frodo and Sam are. I mean it's just so cool. Yeah, I love it. Absolutely love it.

[Matt]

It's such a. It's a jam packed day.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, it is.

[Matt]

Like we see. I feel like later on we see things kind of spread out a little bit more. Yeah, but yeah, like here at this point, you know, these days after the breaking of the Fellowship, I feel like there's just a lot going on.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, there really is. And even after they get reunited with Mary and Pippin, then they split up again and this time it's Pippin and Gandalf in one storyline.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Marion Aragorn in another. Yeah, it's wild. All right. Well you know what? We have spent a wonderfully long time on meanwhile elsewhere in Middle Earth. And what else were we to do? I mean this was March 2nd on March 2nd, so of course we had to.

[Matt]

But it's a special occasion.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. But it is time to get into the episode. So would you pick up where we left off last week?

[Matt]

Totally of the second battle. No such clear accounts were ever made owing to the much greater events that immediately followed. Erkenbrand of Westfold assumed command of the Westmark when news of the fall of Theodred reached him in the Hornburg on the next day he sent errand riders to Etterus to announce this and to bear to Theoden his son's last words adding his own prayer that Eomer should be sent at once with all help that could be spared. Let the defense of Edoras be made here in the west, he said and not wait till it is itself besieged. But Grima used the curtness of this advice to further his policy of delay. It was not until his defeat by Gandalf that any action was taken. The reinforcements with Eomer and the king himself set out in the afternoon of March 2nd. But that night the second battle of the Fords was fought and lost and the invasion of Rohan began. Erkenbrand did not at once himself proceed to the battlefield. All was in confusion. He did not know what forces he could muster in haste nor could he yet estimate the losses that Theodred's troops had actually suffered. He judged rightly that invasion was imminent but that Saruman would not dare to pass on eastward to attack Edoras while the fortress of the Hornburg was unreduced if it was manned and well stored. With this business and the gathering of such men of the Westfold as he could, he was occupied for three days. The command in the field he gave to Grimbold until he could come himself. But he assumed no command over Elfhelm and his riders who belonged to the muster of Edoras. The two commanders were, however, friends and both loyal and wise men, and there was no dissension between them. The ordering of their forces was a compromise between their differing opinions.

[Alan Sisto]

I like that. I like that the chronicler says that, but I do think there was a little bit of disagreement. I mean, I think Elfilm's kind of like, you know, actually no, we shouldn't, but he does sort of concede. Anyway, we'll get to that. With the first battle in the rearview mirror, as they say, the Chronicler here offers a defense really of what the chronicler says is going to be a less detailed account of the second battle. Right. No such clear accounts were ever made. I mean, after all, some even more important things were happening that day and immediately after, as we talked about in Meanwhile Elsewhere in Middle Earth just a minute ago.

[Matt]

Yeah, but while the Chroniclers words might lead you to think this next bit will be brief, it won't.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right.

[Matt]

It just focuses more on the disposition of troops before the battle and a little less, though not a whole lot less, on the battle itself.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right.

[Matt]

The first thing we learn is that after the news of Theodred's death reached Erkenbrand the next day. That's February 26th.

[Alan Sisto]

Right. So the next day after the first. After the next day of Theodred's death.

[Matt]

After the death, yeah. He assumed command of the Westmark in Theodred's place.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. By the way, some quick word Nerdery on Erkenbrand's name, Hammond and Skull in the Reader's Companion suggests the name is Devised from two Old English words, eorkan, precious, and brand, meaning firebrand, torch, or sometimes sword. And if that sounds vaguely familiar, it's because eorken is also the element present in the name of the Arkenstone, or in Old English, eorknenstan.

[Matt]

Ooh, Eorknenstein. I like that.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that's a great word. And it's sort of that thing that makes you realize is the Arkansas Silmaril. No. But also kind of. Yes.

[Matt]

Yeah. Right. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, because it was Tolkien inspiring himself and using his own sort of homebrew mythology and. Yes, and tapping into that mythology. Yeah.

[Matt]

Then it's like, actually, yeah, no, this is the same world, so. No, those aren't the same things now.

[Alan Sisto]

No, no.

[Matt]

So getting back to the text, this isn't arrogance on Erkenbrand's part here or an attempt to, you know, take a leadership role that isn't his, as we'll find out next week when we look at the first part of the append to the battle of the Fords of Isen. Erkenbrand was the chief lord in the West Mark, and was a retired officer in the King's Riders.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. I mean, this guy is an experienced leader of men, and he is the Lord of the Westmark, the chief Lord of the West Mark. So, you know, these are his lands. He's got responsibility for these people and for these lands. So this isn't a power grab. It's simply his position to take until Theoden can appoint a successor. And, yeah, he's got a responsibility as the lord of these lands to take command. And the first thing he did in that command was to send a message to Etteros letting him know I've taken command.

[Matt]

Taking command. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then his next. Here were Theodred's last words. You know, remember we looked at these last week. Let me lie here to keep the fords till a mere comes.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, man, just break my heart, why don't you? Yeah, especially because we spent so much time talking about how Theodred and Amir were close. You know, I mean.

[Matt]

Yeah, I mean, they're basically brothers, you know?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, almost. There's a paternal connection because we talked about the age gap. Yeah.

[Matt]

There. He's much older, but.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, Yeah. I mean, 17 or 18 years older.

[Matt]

They're very close.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, they are. They are. And this is heartbreaking because he just like, yeah, man. So what else did Eric and Brand send in those messages to?

[Matt]

Yeah, and then finally he says, you know, please listen to your dead son. Send Eomer with everyone that can be spared.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes.

[Matt]

You know, and he even phrased this as, you know, the best way possible to protect the capital. You know, defend the city out here in the west where the threat is, instead of waiting to fight a siege.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, and that makes sense given that. That Rohan, their expertise in fighting is in fighting in the open fields in a cavalry.

[Matt]

Right force. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Fighting a siege is not what a cavalry does best.

[Matt]

No, not at all.

[Alan Sisto]

No. By the way, the footnote here tells us that Erkenbrand's message did not get to Etterus until the following day around noon. But the truth is it could have been a FaceTime call and it wouldn't have mattered. Grima was going to use whatever influence he had to continue his policy of delay, delay, delay.

[Matt]

Yeah. It took the defeat of Grima by Gandalf, which would happen five days later on March 2nd. As we talked before, before anything would be done. And by that point, you know, Theoden, he's been healed. Eomer is released from jail, Grima's driven out of Dodge, and they set out that very afternoon. So to his credit, like, once they. Once they, you know, get on it, like they really get on it, once the decision's finally made, unfortunately, it's too late. You know, this. This battle we're about to study took place that night and spoilers. Even though it's right there in the text, the battle was fought and lost.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes. Yes, it was. And now we look at Eric and Rand's next steps, right? He's the one who's in command, so what is he doing now? You know, the first thing he does is not head to the fords right away for the fight. I'm going to. I'm just going to stay right here. Not because of any cowardice. Right. He's got a couple of very valid reasons, doesn't he?

[Matt]

Yeah. The first one seems pretty obvious. He needed to get accurate data. How many troops could he pull together in a hurry? But also, how many troops did Theodred lose?

[Alan Sisto]

And that's a good question. The second reason is this big picture thing that we've talked about before, and I think we talked about it when Brett Devereaux was on a couple of years ago. Actually, Eric and Brand knows the importance of the Hornberg at Helm's Deep. It's placed in such a position that so long as it is manned with troops, an enemy force cannot move on to. To attack Etterus, or they'd be exposing their rear flank and be subjecting their logistics chain to attack, you know, so they cut off their food supply, cut off their. Their supplies, their ammo, whatever it may be. So, you know, you have to deal with this fortress before you can move on to attack the capital.

[Matt]

Yeah. So we see here it's, it's not just how many troops can I get really fast? It's how can I gather as many men as I can to load up the fort here in Helms Deep to prevent attacking force, you know.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes.

[Matt]

From going straight to Etus.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah. Because if they're able to send a detachment out, you know, maybe scout out the. The fortress and see, oh, it's not manned or it's only got a skeleton crew, then we can keep on going. We could just put a detachment here to sort of keep them in. Right. So that we. We've got a defense against their attack. But then you can keep on rolling. But no, if we load this place up and make it clear, you go by here, and you're going to be exposing your flanks. So, being busy then with the preparations of the Hornberg, Eric and Brand gives his field command to Grimbold. And given his actions in the first battle that we looked at last week, that's actually really a pretty solid choice.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, I mean, at least until he can show up himself after the Hornberg is prepared.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, let's note that this preparation proves to be key. As we read in the chapter Helm's Deep in the Lord of the Rings, there in the Hornburg at Helm's Gate, Erkenbrand, master of Westfold, on the borders of the Mark now dwelt as the days darkened with threat of war. Being wise, he had repaired the wall and made the fastness strong.

[Matt]

Then later, when Theoden asks about the provision, he's told that great store of food and many beasts and their fodder have also been gathered there. Now, Erkenbrand himself won't be there at this point. You might remember his dramatic entrance later. Spoiler alert. It's Aomer in the film.

[Alan Sisto]

So that's right.

[Matt]

There you go. Justice for Erkenbrand. But the preparations that have been made give Theoden and his people a better chance of enduring and surviving the coming siege.

[Alan Sisto]

It does. Yeah. Eric and Brand is definitely done dirty by the films. He's over in the corner with Glorfindel and Tom Bombadil going, I thought they wanted us here. So Grimbold then is his field commander, and he's got to work with Elfhelm. Now, why isn't Erkenbrand in charge of both that's because Elf Helm and the riders with him belong to the muster of Etteras. They're not Erkenbrand's troops.

[Matt]

Yeah, and they didn't belong to Theodred either. Remember, Elfhelm was coming with his four companies in answer to Theodred's summons.

[Alan Sisto]

Right? Now we'll get more to that command structure, the Rohirrim next week when we get to the appendix of the Battles of the Fords of Eisen.

[Matt]

What's important to remember, though, is that Grimbold serves under Erkenbrand's command, while Elf Helm is independent. Now, fortunately, Elf Helm and Grimbold get along pretty well. They're friends and they're both wise, presumably both experienced leaders, and they're both loyal to the king. So they're not under Grima's influence.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. So even though they have differing opinions, shall we say, on the tactical nature of their defense, there is no genuine discord between them. But let's go and take a look at those differing opinions right after the break. Matt When I think about businesses that are just blowing up, you know, selling through the roof like Allbirds Shoes or Gymshark, where I've bought some stuff, the first thing that hits me is that they sell a great product. Or maybe it's a cool brand. But something that people often overlook is the business behind the business that makes selling. And for shoppers, buying simple. And for millions of businesses, that business is Shopify.

[Matt]

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[Alan Sisto]

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[Matt]

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[Alan Sisto]

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[Matt]

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[Alan Sisto]

Soon we'll get back to the debate between Elf, Helm and Grimbold. But before we do, we want to remind you that there's a lot more talk going on at the Prancing Pony Podcast than just us.

[Matt]

The PPP has an amazing listener community. They're always coming up with great questions and discussions across all our social media spaces. Check out our Common Room on Facebook, our dedicated subreddit, Twitter, and more on Facebook.

[Alan Sisto]

Just look for the Prancing Pony Podcast. Follow the page to get the news, but you're going to want to join the group for some great discussions.

[Matt]

Or if you prefer Reddit, find us there at r prancingponypod on Twitter, Instagram, BlueSky, Twitch, and YouTube, we're simply prancingponypod.

[Alan Sisto]

And if you want daily Tolkien content, check out today's Tolkien Times on the PPP YouTube channel and on all your favorite podcast apps. It's my short format daily show with everything from Middle Earth Map Monday to Silmarillion Saturday. And of course there's my twice weekly streaming of all fun things Middle Earth on the PPP plays. Be sure to check both of them out on the YouTube channel for all the PPP productions at YouTube.com prancingponypod all.

[Matt]

Right, well, with that out of the way, let's get back to the battle. Alan, you want to take the next reading?

[Alan Sisto]

I will indeed. Elfelm held that the Fords were no longer important, but rather a snare to entrap men better placed elsewhere. Since Saruman could clearly send forces down either side of the Isen as suited, his purpose and his immediate purpose would undoubtedly be to overrun Westfold and invest the Hornburg before any effective help could come from Etteras, his army, or most of it, would therefore come down the east side of the Isen, for though by that way over rougher ground, without roads, their approach would be slower. They would not have to force the passage of the Fords. Elfelm therefore advised that the forge should be abandoned. All the available men on foot should be assembled on the east side and placed in a position to hold up the advance of the enemy. A long line of rising ground running from west to east some few miles north of the fords. But the cavalry should be withdrawn eastward to a point from which, when the advancing enemy was engaged with the defense, a charge with the greatest impact could be delivered on their flank and drive them into the river. Let Eisen be their snare and not ours. Grimbold, on the other hand, was not willing to abandon the fords. This was in part due to the tradition of Westfold in which he and Erkenbrand had been bred, but was not without some reason. We do not know, he said, what force Saruman has still at his command. But if it is indeed his purpose to ravage Westfold and drive its defenders into Helms Deep and there contain them, then it must be very great. He is unlikely to display it all at once. As soon as he guesses or discovers how we have disposed our defence, he will certainly send great strength at all speed down the road from Isengard and crossing the undefended fords come in our rear if we are all gathered northwards. In the end. Grimbold manned the western end of the fords with the greater part of his foot soldiers There they were in a strong position in the earthforts that guarded the approaches. He remained with the rest of his men, including what remained to him of Theodred's cavalry on the east bank. The aiet he left bare. Elfhelm, however, withdrew his riders and took up his position on the line where he had wished the main defense to stand. His purpose was to descry as soon as could be any attack coming down on the east of the river and to disperse it before it could reach the fords.

[Matt]

Well, Elf Helm here, he's of the opinion that not only are the fords no longer the important place to defend, but more than that, defending them. It's a trap.

[Alan Sisto]

There's a tarp. He's the Admiral Akbar of the Rohirrim. I love it.

[Matt]

That's right, yeah. Simply put here, Saruman could send forces down either side or both sides of.

[Alan Sisto]

The Eisen and that sort of pincher movement could be a real problem for any force defending the fords. Elf Helm also believes that since Solomon's primary intent is to overrun the Westfold and head towards Helm's Deep. I mean, think about, you know, he said, invest Helm's Deep. You know, they're going to go there and if Helm's Deep is not occupied, they're going to occupy because then Rohan is totally toast, you know, so since their intent is to do that, they're going to go down the east side of the river.

[Matt]

There's not a road on that side, but. Well, no, but they wouldn't have to try to fight their way past the fords at least.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I mean, that makes so much more sense. I mean, wouldn't you, given the choice, go down the rough side of the river? Sure, it's going to take a little bit longer, but it enables you to avoid a fight at the only place that you can cross. I mean, look, the fords are a great spot to defend, but not against Eisen Guard. They're a great spot to defend against anybody else coming from that direction or, you know, somebody coming from that direction. But you can't defend against a force that can send people down either side of the river.

[Matt]

Especially if. If Isengard is your ally, you know.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that's the whole point. I mean, if I was your ally, the fords are perfect, but yeah, it's fantastic.

[Matt]

Yeah. So we see here his suggestion is to abandon the fords altogether and put all the men on foot on the east side of the river, not at the fords themselves, but in a good defensive spot a few miles north of the fords.

[Alan Sisto]

Folks, I know we cut this part out of the reading, but we. The abandoned fords just cracked up, which is. We're picturing the Cadillac Ranch but with fords. Oh my gosh, it's just a bunch of abandoned fords. Of course, I'll never abandon my ford. I happen to like my, my Mach 1. So there is a bit of a hill there where the defensive spot is that. That elf Helm's talking about. And it's described as a long line of rising ground. That's what we call a hill. And it runs perpendicular to the river. And then he wants to station the cavalry a little bit further to the east of that. I mean, it's a smart move, right? You line up the troops on the. So that you're making the attacking force come up a hill, which is always going to be a drawback. And then you've got cavalry to the side in the woods that are then going to flank attack and drive them right into the river.

[Matt]

So what. What do we think about the validity of this, this plan here? Alan?

[Alan Sisto]

I actually like elf Helms plan a lot better. Yeah, it makes sense. I mean, it's. It's a tough call because Grimbold makes the good point that if Simon determines that your forces are all lined up in defense on that side of the fords, he's going to come down and cross the fords.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Undefended. But I feel like maybe what you do is you put a small defensive force but on the east side of the fords, not the west.

[Matt]

Okay.

[Alan Sisto]

Make them, if they're going to cross the fords, make them cross the fords and come out of the river and fight from the river into a defense. But I, I still like where Elf Helm's setting up his troops. He's setting up troops in a much better place and he's able to wipe them out because he's, he's right about their forced disposition. They're going to come down that side.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Of course they're also going to come down the other side. The problem here is that it doesn't matter what defense they choose.

[Matt]

That's kind of what I was thinking.

[Alan Sisto]

Too, was like, but we don't know that. Neither do they. If, if we're talking about a normal size army and not, not the 10,000 that we'll see, it makes more sense to go with Elf homes plan. But yeah, yeah, but I guess we'll get to Grimbold's plan. Now what was grim, sir?

[Matt]

Yeah, so grim bold. On the other hand, he feels like the fords are still critical and they're the place to defend. So we see. You know, part of this mindset the text tells us is because the tradition of Westfold and yeah, yeah, that makes sense. The Fords would absolutely be central to the defense of the Westfold and would have a long history of importance.

[Alan Sisto]

And remember, he's here under the leadership of Erken Brand. Right. I mean, he's here because Ernbrand's the lord of this part of Rohan. So the tradition of the Westfold is going to have an impact here.

[Matt]

Still. Just because it's tradition doesn't mean it's a bad idea. It says not without some reason.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Now we don't know the disposition of forces yet. I mean, I know you and I do, Matt. Right. We, we see all, we know all we, we are aware that 10,000 troops are coming our way, but at the time this is happening, we don't know. And you know, Grimbold's like, look, if he's going to try to take the Westfold and Helm's Deep, that's going to be a big force. And he's right about that. And he's like, hey, you know what? If it is that big, he's not going to send them all at once. He's not going to commit all his forces at one time in one place. So the minute he figures out where we set up our defenses, if we go with your plan, he's going to come down this side of the river, you know, the one with the road, and cross the undefended fords and flank us.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay. You know, both sides have their pros and cons, don't they?

[Matt]

Yeah, they sure do. This is interesting. I. You know, I. I feel like there's obviously there's going to be pros and cons to each. As we know, both these. Both these guys are accomplished soldiers and leaders of men here, and, like, there's going to be some validity to both of these. And, you know, obviously they. They don't see eye to eye, so there's also going to be drawbacks to both of these.

[Alan Sisto]

That's true.

[Matt]

I. I think selfishly, like, I would rather be on the east side of the river because it's closer. If you need to retreat, I have to say.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Rather than having to retreat across the fords.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. With an army.

[Matt]

Yeah. Getting stuck on the Isengard side, so to speak.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that's a good point. I mean, I think I would as well, but the west side of the river does have the earth forts that. That will find out defending. So, you know, if you're playing turtle, you know, and you're going to just defend. Way back to my starcraft days, and you're just going to defend until you can build up a bigger force, then defend the earth for earthwork forts.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

But no, I feel like, like Elfhelm's plan is a better one, but. Yeah. So what do they end up doing?

[Matt]

Yeah. At the end of this, they kind of compromise a bit. With Grimbold manning the forts on the west side of the fords with most of his army, he and his men, as well as what's left of Theodred's cavalry stay on the east bank and.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, the text gives us a nice little footnote to this bit that I love. The reason why he leaves the island empty. It is told that he set up on stakes all about the aisle it the heads of the axemen that had been slain there. But above the hasty mound of Theodred in the middle was set his banner. That will be defense enough, he said. Oh, I love that. I absolutely love that. In the meantime, though, I'm going to say, I know we said compromise. I feel like they're not compromising here. I feel like they're just splitting their defenses. And I wonder, what if they had just defended one place, if they would.

[Matt]

Have gone with one plan or the other.

[Alan Sisto]

Right. Fully committed to one plan or the other. I mean, I guess there, There is some compromise in the sense that Grimbold hasn't put all his men on the. The west side and in the sense that. That. That elf Helm is no longer setting up a line of defense where he can then flank. He's really more like doing these cavalry scouts who are gonna.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Take a look at, you know, where is the attack and when is the attack coming?

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah. Now, in the meantime, elf Helm pulls his riders back and goes up north of the fords on the east side to defend that ridge as he'd wanted.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[Matt]

But no longer with the purpose of fighting, you know, the primary defense here. His objective now is to spot any attack coming down the east side that might. Might flank Grim bold and scatter it before, you know, they. Before they reach the forts.

[Alan Sisto]

So how'd that go for Matt?

[Matt]

Yeah, let's find out. All went ill is the first three words of the reading. So spoiler alert. Let's. Let's get it out of the way.

[Alan Sisto]

Right at the beginning. All went ill. Yeah, it was a bad day. It was a very bad day.

[Matt]

Yeah. It's kind of like naming chapters. The departure of Boromir. It's like there's like one of two things that probably happens to Boromir.

[Alan Sisto]

Or both in this case. Yeah.

[Matt]

Or both. Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

All right, so we'll get back to the reading here. All went ill, as most likely it would have done. In any case, Saruman's strength was too great. He began his attack by day and before noon of March 2, a strong force of his best fighters coming down by the road from Isengard attacked the forts on the west of the fords. This force was in fact only a small part of those that he had in hand, no more than he deemed sufficient to depose of the weakened defense. But the garrison of the fords, though greatly outnumbered, resisted stubbornly. At length, however, when both the forts were heavily engaged, a troop of Uruks forced the passage between them and began to cross the fords. Grimbold, trusting an elfhelm to hold off attack on the east side, came across with all the men he had left and flung them back for a while. But the enemy commander then threw in a battalion that had not been committed and broke the defenses. Grimbold was obliged to withdraw across the Isen. It was then, near sunset. He had suffered much loss, but had inflicted far heavier losses on the enemy, mostly orcs and he still held the east bank strongly. The enemy did not attempt to cross the fords and fight their way up the steep slopes to dislodge him. Him not yet. Elfhelm had been unable to take part in this action. In the dusk, he withdrew his companies and retired towards Grimbold's camp, setting his men in groups at some distance from it to act as a screen against attack from the north and east, from southwards. They expected no evil and hoped for succor. After the retreat across the fords, Ehren riders had been dispatched at once to Erkenbrand and to Etterus, telling of their plight. Fearing, indeed knowing that greater evil would befall them ere long unless help beyond hope reached them swiftly, the defenders prepared to do what they could to hold up Saruman's advance before they were overwhelmed. The greater part stood to arms only a few at a time, attempting to snatch such brief rest and sleep as they could. Grimbold and Elf Helm were sleepless, awaiting the dawn and dreading what it might bring. They did not have to wait so long.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, man, no, they did not. So, apparently, to answer my earlier question, it didn't go well at all. At all. All went ill, thank you, professor, as it turns out. Really, like we talked about earlier, neither of their plans were going to work because, well, quantity has a quality all of its own. Saruman's forces were massive.

[Matt]

Yeah. Recall what we read in Flotsam and Jetsam. As Merry explained, all Saruman's people were marching away. I don't know much about this war or about the horsemen of Rohan, but Saruman seems to have meant to finish off the king and all his men. With one final blow. He emptied Isengard.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. And then later, well, of all sorts together. There must have been 10,000 at the very least, said Mary. They took an hour to pass out of the gates.

[Matt]

Yeah. In other words, Grimbold and Elf Helm couldn't have done much against a force this size, especially given their losses just a week before. And, you know, we see the attack comes during the day and by noon, Saruman's vanguard on the west side was attacking the forts on that side of the fords.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Now, Saruman is not always the brightest of generals, as we observed at Helm's Deep a few years ago. And as Brett Devereaux made really clear in his blog, it's fantastic if you haven't read it, but at least he doesn't make the rookie mistake of sending everybody all at once. Right? He sends just enough to eliminate the defense at the fords.

[Matt]

Yeah. And we see that they greatly outnumbered the forces of Rohan. But these Rohirrim, you know, they resisted stubbornly.

[Alan Sisto]

I love it. I mean, they're Rohirram, of course, and they're. They're going to fight hard. This is their homeland. But, you know, back to quantity, having equality all of its own. When both defensive fortifications were fully engaged in battle with the Isengard army, another group of Uruks. And again, you can only do this when you have that many numbers, makes their way between the defensive structures and begins to head across the fords.

[Matt]

Yeah. That would obviously put the rest of the defense in jeopardy. So Grimbald crosses with everyone he has left and throws back the enemy temporarily.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. So then another battalion arrives and crushes the resistance. And remember, we talked about this a little bit last week. A battalion is several companies, so we are talking about several hundred, maybe even up to a thousand Uruks. So Grimbold has no choice now but to retreat across the river to the east side. Though, again, as a reminder, Elfhelm is set up just a couple miles to the north. So he's not going to be able to help necessarily. This is just a retreat and reorganization.

[Matt]

Yeah. The text says it's then near sunset. And recall that the battle began before noon. So we're talking at least six hours of fierce fighting.

[Alan Sisto]

That's terrifying. Exhausting. I mean.

[Matt]

Oh, yeah. Gosh, I can't imagine.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, no.

[Matt]

And you know, not surprisingly, he'd taken a lot of losses but inflicted much heavier losses to their.

[Alan Sisto]

Much heavier. No doubt about that. But the problem with the battle of attrition the text doesn't mention is that the Rohirrim could kill 10 orcs for every one of them and still get wiped out.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah. Fortunately, I mean, the losses were enough to keep the enemy on the other side of the fords, at least.

[Alan Sisto]

That's true. That's true. And in fact, in doing that, we get a mention here of some geography that helps. Grim Bold. And it's the steep slopes up from the fords. You know, we talked about this earlier. Maybe it would have been better to defend here. If you've got them crossing a river now you've got them crossing a river and having to go up a steep slope. Plus your backup forces are only two miles away, not across the river. That might. I mean, I don't know. I feel like that's a better place to defend in this case. What do you think?

[Matt]

Yeah, it kind of feels that way. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I have the high ground Anakin.

[Matt]

Right. That's what I was thinking too. The high ground.

[Alan Sisto]

So I mean, we gotta have another Star Wars.

[Matt]

We're just working the Star wars stuff in here. At least we're not. We're not inundating these fine folks with no with sports analogies this week.

[Alan Sisto]

And we're not giving Elf Helm like Jar Jar Binks's voice, you know?

[Matt]

Oh yeah, me.

[Alan Sisto]

I think we should defend the long reach up two miles to the north.

[Matt]

I think your Jar Jar is a little Italian there.

[Alan Sisto]

I couldn't remember what he was gonna say, but I was tripping all over it.

[Matt]

That's in a spicy to meet them all.

[Alan Sisto]

That's where I was going with it. It's George R. Luigi.

[Matt]

Oh my gosh. Okay, let's not go Mario Luigi.

[Alan Sisto]

Time is stuck. All right. Oh, man. So we move to Elf Helm's part of the battle, not Jar Jar's. And the day has not gone much better for him. Here's the thing. We don't know what happened to him during the daytime hours yet, but we do know that at dusk, which is around the same time that Grimbold is still defending the west side of the fords. He has pulled his troops back towards Grimbold's camp, concentrating their forces and setting up screens to the north and to the east.

[Matt]

And they also sent riders to Erkenbrand in Helm's Deep. Recall that that's where Erkenbrand is right now. And Etterus, hoping desperately that someone is going to come to their aid in time.

[Alan Sisto]

Please, please.

[Matt]

Yeah, but they know the reality. You know, they fearing, indeed knowing that it's gonna get much worse very soon unless help. Basically it comes unexpectedly. Unless it comes on. Yeah, miraculously.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

They're in a bad.

[Alan Sisto]

Fearing, indeed knowing. Boy, what a phrase that is, isn't it? Yeah. Oh, that's. That is. That is weighing on them. And boy, the text that you read sure ends in an ominous place. They did not have to wait so long.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

So they prepare defenses and intend to hold up Saruman's army as long as possible. Basically a Rohirric speed bump, if you will.

[Matt]

That's what they've been reduced to. Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Yep.

[Matt]

And you know, not sure that this is the best idea. Recall that there is a perfectly serviceable fortress not that far away.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

I mean, Erkenbrand knows if you can't fight them in the open, get to Helm's Deep and they won't be able to ignore you.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. And in fact, the footnote tells us just that. Right. The Stubborn defense idea, this. Well, if we can't beat him, let's at least try to take as many of them with us as we can.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

That stubborn defense is Grimbold's idea. Elf Helm, it said, would not desert him. But had he himself been in command, he would have abandoned the fords under cover of night and withdrawn southwards to meet Erkenbrand and swell the forces still available for the defense of the Deeping Comb and the Hornburg. He knows, right? I feel like Elfhelm is the superior tactical guy here.

[Matt]

Seems that way. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And I guess in a way that makes sense. I mean, Grimbold is certainly a man of valor and he's a good fighter, but remember, he started being thrust. He's being given field command by Erkenbrand, who had to take over for Theodred after Theodred's death. On the other hand, Elf Helm is already a marshal of the of the Mark. He's already. He's just in charge of the muster of Etteros.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

So he's got more field experience. And I feel like in this case maybe Grim Bull needed to take that into consideration.

[Matt]

Yeah. Because this is making me wonder like if. If all these soldiers went to Helm's Deep instead. Like what, what, what if?

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[Matt]

What if everybody was at Helm's Deep? Does that actually help? I mean, obviously having more people helps, but yeah. You know, with Gandalf and Erkenbrand showing up, that's kind of a sneak attack in a way.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

You know, like it's almost one of those things. Like, well, maybe if they were all at Helms Deep, it they would have lost. I don't know.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh.

[Matt]

Although Gandalf wouldn't have a reason to. You know, having a White wizard on your side there probably would be advantageous too. This is a really interesting what if rabbit hole that my mind is going down right now.

[Alan Sisto]

I love the what ifs. Yeah. Look, for me, three days from now, dawn. It's a nice day for a White wizard, right? Oh, man. So most of the men prepare for the fight, right? A handful are getting short bits of sleep where possible. Wonderful. They're all going to be fatigued too. I mean, that's not good. I don't want to fight with that.

[Matt]

Yeah. And the leaders pull an all nighter dreading what the morning will bring. But they won't have to wait till the sun comes up.

[Alan Sisto]

No, but you are gonna have to wait till after the AD break to hear more. Your snacking routine can get a little dull. Time for an Oikos Remix or Light and fit remix like a crunchy storm of sea salt, praline pretzels, dark chocolate and butter toffee showering down into a smooth, creamy yogurt. Enjoy six Remix varieties, three Epicomplete Protein Oikos Remix options, or three Craveable Light and Fit Remix options. See remixyogurt.com it's melt season at Burger King. Melt away the winter with BK's cheesy melt. Get classic bacon or Shroom and Swiss for only 4.99 bk have it your way. Number two opportunity Patty time participating US barbecue restaurants. Price may vary. Folks, if you're enjoying the ppp, please consider supporting the show by joining the Fellowship of the Podcast. It's what gives me the time and resources to work on making the show the best that it can be. When you join, you become a part of an amazing discord community that includes live episode recordings, we're actually doing one tonight, and hangouts every month. You also get episode postscripts, ad free episodes, free merch, and more.

[Matt]

You can also become part of our Questions After Nightfall episodes or even join us as a guest in the north wing. So Please go to patreon.com prancingponypod to show your support and join the Fellowship of the Podcast.

[Alan Sisto]

And you can always help us out by giving us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts and a rating on Spotify. And please recommend us to your friends.

[Matt]

And in the meantime, we'll keep raiding people's battlefield tactics.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, because we're so good at that. Yeah.

[Matt]

Yes. Yeah, we. We clearly. We clearly know exactly what we're talking about. Yeah. Well, the high ground. Star wars tells us the high ground is good, so we should have that. Okay. Exactly. But we. We can read. We can read the text and, and get our two cents. So. So, Alan, you want to take us away with the next one?

[Alan Sisto]

I will. They came on at great speed, and suddenly all the host burst into flame as it seemed hundreds of torches were kindled from those borne by the leaders of troops and gathering into their stream the forces already manning the west bank. They swept over the fords like a river of fire with a great clamor of hate. A great company of bowmen might have made them rue the light of their torches, but Grimbold had only a handful of archers. He could not hold the east bank and withdrew from it, forming a great shield wall about his camp. Soon it was surrounded, and the attackers cast torches among them, and some they sent high over the heads of the shield wall, hoping to kindle fires among the stores and terrify such horses as Grimbold still had. But the shield wall held then, since the orcs were of less avail in such fighting because of their stature fierce companies of the Dunlendish hillmen were thrown against it. But for all their hatred, the Dunlendings were still afraid of the Rohirrim if they met face to face and they were also less skilled in warfare and less well armed. The shield wall still held in vain. Grimbold looked for help to come from Elfhelm. None came. At last, then he determined to carry out, if he could, the plan that he had already made if he should find himself in just such a desperate position. He had at length recognized the wisdom of Elfhelm and understood that though his men might fight on till all were slain and would, if he ordered it, such valor would not help Erkenbrand. Any man that could break out and escape southwards would be more useful, though he might seem inglorious. The night had been overcast and dark but now the waxing moon began to glimmer through drifting clouds A wind was moving from the east the forerunner of the great storm that when day came would pass over Rohan and burst over Helm's Deep. The next night Grimbold was aware suddenly that most of the torches had been extinguished and the fury of the assault had abated. He therefore at once mounted those riders for whom horses were available not many more than half an eyred and placed them under the command of Dunhare. The shield wall was opened on the east side and the riders passed through, driving back their assailants on that side. Then, dividing and wheeling round, they charged the enemy to the north and south of the camp. The sudden maneuver was, for a space successful. The enemy was confused and dismayed. Many thought at first that a large force of riders had come from the east. Grimbold himself remained on foot with a rear guard of picked men men already chosen and covered for the moment by these and the riders under Dunhera. The remainder retreated with what speed they could. But Saruman's commander soon perceived that the shield wall was broken and the defenders in flight. Fortunately, the moon was overtaken by cloud and all was dark again and he was in haste. He did not allow his troops to press the pursuit of the fugitives far into the darkness. Now that the fords were captured, he gathered his force as best he could and made for the road southward. So it was that the greater part of Grimbold's men survived.

[Matt]

Now, in the short bit that we didn't read we learned that it's just a few hours later. Recall that dusk was probably around 6pm or so in March at this latitude before midnight when they start to see the approaching torches. And these are coming from both the north and the shore of the river. The text says west of the river but that would still be east of these troops. So between them and the Isen.

[Alan Sisto]

Right. And it is the vanguard of the full army. So if the army is 10,000 in total, we're talking at least a thousand, probably more. And then picking up where we did read, these soldiers are not approaching carefully or slowly. They are coming at great speed. And the torches are lit up in a hurry revealing hundreds and hundreds of troops.

[Matt]

Yeah, and at this point they're still on the other side of the Isen. But now they gather those forces that were on the west bank and they all come across.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, so like a river of fire with a great clamor of hate. What a way of describing it. I mean this is terrifying. Now the interesting thing though is torches are frankly a bad idea if you're trying not to get shot. But by this point Grimbull just doesn't have enough archers to do anything with with.

[Matt]

Instead he pulls back from the east bank and makes a shield wall around the camp that he'd set up earlier.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. You know, I'm starting to really think Elfelm had the right idea. And yes, Grimbold will eventually see the light.

[Matt]

Not surprisingly, this cluster of Rohirrim are quickly surrounded. Fortunately the shield wall is strong. It holds even when the enemy throws torches into the camp. These orcs are useless. So the the enemy throw some of the fierce dunlendings into the fray. They hate Rohan after all, so they'll be able to bust the shield wall.

[Alan Sisto]

Right. And they're not tiny little Orcs, they're big guys. But maybe they can't. Because it turns out that as much as they hate the Rohirrim, they're afraid of them. They're not as well armed and they're not even as good at warfare. I love that. Quick aside by the way, on this not being well armed aspect. Recall that Rohan is allied with Gondor. Dunland isn't allied with anybody. Maybe Saruman and he doesn't care about this cannon fodder. And the footnote tells us the very specifics about this. They were without body armor, having only among them a few hauberks gained by theft or in loot. But they only have a few of those. They don't have the heavy metal as we read here, the Rohirrim had the advantage in being supplied by the metal workers of Gondor in Isengard as yet that only the heavy and clumsy mail of the orcs was made by them for their own uses. So if I'm attacking armored, well armed troops in whatever passes for street clothes, yeah, I'm gonna back down too. Yeah.

[Matt]

Yeah. So the shield wall still holds. And I love that he repeats that here.

[Alan Sisto]

The shield wall held. Yes.

[Matt]

Yeah. Grimbold's wondering why Elf Helm isn't there to help, but he's not. And so Grimbold. Yeah, so Grimbold comes up with a last ditch plan.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. He finally comes around to seeing Elf Helm's position about retreating to the Hornburg. He realizes that while his men will certainly fight on until they die if he tells them to, that doesn't help Rohan and it doesn't help his Lord Erkenbrand.

[Matt]

Every single soldier that can get out of this situation reinforce Helm's deep as a win. Even if as he thinks it might seem.

[Alan Sisto]

Inglorious, you know, a quick aside. I actually really do like Grimbold, so I don't mean to beat up on him here. He's an amazing warrior with a brave heart and he sure doesn't deserve to die in the Pollennor spoilers. That's exactly what he does. But I am reminded just a bit of some of the things that Tolkien said in the essay after the homecoming of Beortnoth, Beorthelm's son. Oh yeah, this whole idea about it might seem inglorious just made me think about that essay called overmode. This idea that the northern heroic spirit can, and Tolkien writes, direct a man to endure even death unflinching when necessary, that is when death may help the achievement of some object of will, or when life can only be purchased by denial of what one stands for, but that it can also be seen in excess. Not that Grimbold has done what Beornath did. I mean, Beornath allowed his enemies to cross a land bridge so they could have a fair fight. That was really bad idea.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Grimbold is not being chivalrous to the orcs, but he does seem to place maybe too high a value on defending the ford and doesn't make, at least not until the very end, the arguably wiser choice to retreat to Helm's Deep for the better of Rohan as a whole.

[Matt]

Yeah, man, that's interesting. I had never made the connection with, with that, with that book and I'd only recently discovered that. But like when they Great story. Because they, yeah, they just re Released like a new edition of it or something. Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Ye.

[Matt]

And that was. That was my first exposure to that story. But, yeah, it is interesting, this. This idea of chivalry versus stupidity, you know?

[Alan Sisto]

Well, you know, like recognizing that if you are an ordinary soldier, having that. That Northern spirit and being willing to do these things is a good thing. But if you're the commander, if you're the leader of these men, you have an obligation to those men under you.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

As well as to the Lord above you.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And in this case, you know, he's. Not only does he have kind of a loyalty to his men, that, hey, this isn't where I should spend your lives. You shouldn't have to die here. He also has a loyalty to Urkenbrand. And there's a little bit of me that's like, you know, there's a little bit of this. And I think it made me think of that because the Rohirrim are. I know they're. They're more than just Anglo Saxons on horses, but there is a little bit of that Anglo Saxon feel.

[Matt]

Oh, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

They're supposed to be. And that is the ancient Northern spirit that we're talking about here, the Northern heroic spirit. It's. I just. It made me think of that. But I think, honestly, that's something that's so present in Tolkien that you sometimes see it in other characters. I could not help for sure think of Turin making them build that bridge in Argentron.

[Matt]

Oh, yeah. And then it's like. Like, yeah. And you have a valar telling you, like, hey, you guys should get rid.

[Alan Sisto]

Of this bridge down the stones of your pride. Yeah.

[Matt]

And he's like, nah, nah, not going to do that. I know better.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, man. Crazy stuff.

[Matt]

Well, getting back to the text here, we. We get the exit strategy from Grimbold as night passes. And I love the descriptions here about the moon and the wind.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yeah.

[Matt]

Grimbold observes that most of the torches have gone out and the enemy isn't trying to break the shield wall, or at least not as fiercely as it was before. And the footnote actually tells us why. Here it seems that Grimbold's valiant defense had not been altogether unavailing. It had been unexpected. And Saruman's commander was late. He had been delayed for some hours. Whereas it was intended that he should sweep over the fords, scatter the weak defenses, and without waiting to pursue them, hasten to the road and proceed then south to join in the assault on the Deeping, he was now in doubt. He awaited maybe some signal from the other army that had been sent down the east side of the Isen.

[Alan Sisto]

Aha. Well, that does explain it. So with the assaults slowing down, Grimbal decides it's time to execute this plan. Right. Get as many men mounted as possible. And that's not very many. Right. The text says it's not many more than half an arid remember that an aid is 120 men, so not many more than 60. Maybe 65, 70. Then it's still a sizable force on horseback. And he gives command of this company to Dunhare. The text tells us that he's Erken Brand's nephew and a valiant captain. He also happens to be the Lord of Harrowdale.

[Matt]

Then Grimbold opens up the shield wall on the east side. So opposite the fords. And the writers race out of their camp, split into two groups, and wheel around behind the enemy rear to the north and south.

[Alan Sisto]

I love that. It is a bold offensive move from a really tight spot. And it works at first. I mean, it really throws the enemy for a loop. The riders in particular make them think that maybe reinforcements have arrived. You know, an A red coming from. From Etteras, perhaps. And with the riders out doing their thing, Grimbold forms an infantry rear guard. There's the rear guard action we talked about. And he sends the rest of his force to retreat. So they've got the rear guard Grimbold leading them to protect that retreating force. And then the cavalry out there distracting the enemy forces.

[Matt]

Yeah. And it doesn't take long for the enemy to figure out the shield wall is broken and the enemy is retreating.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[Matt]

But it's dark and he's in a hurry to get to Helm's Deep. So he does not chase them down. Instead, he regroups and heads south. And this enables the greater part of the men in Grimbold's command to survive and reinforce Helm's Deep.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Now, in the part that we skipped, we learned that they did get scattered. And that's not a surprise. Really? Really. But they eventually made their way off road.

[Matt]

Yeah. Pleasantly surprised. Not to run into enemies.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

But the text leaves off with the reminder that the majority of Saruman's army has already gone south.

[Alan Sisto]

And that last bit is interesting. Isengard is only protected by little but its own strength of wall and gate, suggesting Saruman has truly emptied Isengard. Not that a small beaten up force of Grimbold's rear guard could go into anything about it, of course, but as we read earlier in Meanwhile, elsewhere, Middle Earth. They don't need to. The ants are going to be there.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah. It's quite the twist, like where all this time that you've assembled this massive army you send them all out and then it's like, oh, now I'm getting my butt handed to me by ants. Whoops.

[Alan Sisto]

By. What are these things? Oh, man. All right. Well, Matt, can you read our last reading for tonight?

[Matt]

Absolutely. It was for this reason that no help had come from Elfhelm for more than half of Saruman's force had actually been sent down east of Isen. They came on more slowly than the Western Division for the land was rougher and without roads and they bore no lights. But before them, swift and silent, went several troops of the dreaded Wolf Riders. Before Elfhelm had any warning of the approach of enemies on his side of the river the Wolf Riders were between him and Grimbold's camp and they were also attempting to surround each of his small groups of riders. It was dark and all his force was in disarray. He gathered all that he could into a close body of horsemen but he was obliged to retreat eastward. He could not reach Grimbold though he knew that he was in straits and had been about to come to his aid when attacked by the wolfriders. But he also guessed, rightly that the wolfriders were only the forerunners of a force far too great for him to oppose. That would make for the southward road. The night was wearing away. He could only await the dawn. What followed is less clear since only Gandalf had full knowledge of it. He received news of the disaster only in the late afternoon of March 3rd. The king was then at a point not far east of the junction of the road with the branch going to the Hornburg. From there it was about 90 miles in a direct line to Isengard and Gandalf must have ridden there with the greatest speed that Shadowfax could command. He reached Isengard in the early darkness and left again in no more than 20 minutes. Both on the outward journey when his direct route would take him close to the ford and on his return south to find Erkenbrand he must have met Grimbold and Elfhelm. They were convinced that he was acting for the king not only by his appearance on Shadowfax but also by his knowledge of the name of the errand rider Cheorl and the message that he brought. And they took as orders the advice that he gave Grimbold's men He sent southward to join Erkenbrink.

[Alan Sisto]

And now we learn why. Grimbold kept looking north and wondering why Elfelm wasn't coming to help him out. I mean, as much as Grimbold was facing a numerically superior force, remember, vastly outnumbered, Elfam was actually opposing more than half of Saruman's forces.

[Matt]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. These forces had to move more slowly because there's no roads on that side of the river.

[Alan Sisto]

No. Yeah. Where we're going, we don't need roads.

[Matt]

That's right.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, man.

[Matt]

But they. They were also coming with more stealth. They did not have torches.

[Alan Sisto]

No. Much smarter move. And terrifyingly, they were led by the Wolf Riders, who we talked about last week. Remember, the horses were terrified of these things because they would actually go into formations of cavalry and attack the bellies of the horses. But here they weren't doing that. Instead, they were being described here as swift and silent. It's a highly effective lead unit when you think about it. And before Elf Helm knows what's happening, those units, those Wolf Riders, have flanked him and cut him off from Grimbold. In fact, they're even surrounding the smaller units of his men because he doesn't have them in tight formation.

[Matt]

And once he realizes this, he brings all the riders that he can into a tightly formed unit, but has no choice other than to retreat to the east. Remember, he can't retreat south toward Grimbold because the Wolf Riders got around him.

[Alan Sisto]

Right, yeah.

[Matt]

He'd been planning on writing to support Grimbold when the Wolf Riders attacked, but. But more than that, Elfhelm knew this was just the lead unit of a much larger army, so.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly.

[Matt]

Yeah. The only thing that he can do now is retreat and wait for the sun to come up so he can see and decide what to do then.

[Alan Sisto]

Yep, Absolutely. Well, the chronicler here acknowledges his own lack of information here, pointing out that Gandalf is the only one who actually knows all of what happened here. And he got word of the battle late the next afternoon. For that, we're going to go back to the text of the Lord of the Rings for a sequel to our. Elsewhere in Middle Earth. And this is from the chapter Helm's Deep. The day before March 2nd was the eventful day when Gandalf healed the king and the Rohirrim headed out to attack Saruman.

[Matt]

Matt, here we read. As the second day of their writing drew on, the heaviness in the air increased in the afternoon. The dark clouds began to overtake. Take them. A somber canopy with great billowing edges flecked with dazzling light. The sun went down blood red in a smoking haze. The spears of the riders were tipped with fire as the last shafts of light kindled the steep faces of the peaks of Triharn, now very near. They stood on the northernmost arm of the White Mountains. Three jagged horns staring at the sunset. In the last red glow. Men in the vanguard saw a black speck, a horseman, riding back towards them. They halted, awaiting him. He came, a weary man with dinted helm and cloven shield. Slowly he climbed from his horse and stood there a while, gasping. At length he spoke. Is Eomer here? He asked. You come at last. But too late and with too little strength. Things have gone evilly since Theodred fell. We were driven back yesterday over the Isen with great loss. Many perishing at the crossing. Then at night, fresh forces came over the river against our camp. All Isengard must be emptied. And Saruman has armed the wild hillmen and herd folk of Dunland beyond the rivers. And these also he loosed upon us. We were overmastered. The shield wall was broken. Erkenbrand of Westfold has drawn off those men. He could gather towards his fastness in Helm's Deep.

[Alan Sisto]

The rest are scattered later after the king makes his presence known. And I love that scene. Like we talked about it earlier. Oh, you're here. Wait a minute. What? How are you here? They all head off to Helm's Deep and that's when we get Gandalf throwing a curveball. While Theoden was speaking, Gandalf rode a short way ahead. And he sat there alone gazing north to Isengard and west to the setting sun. Now he came back. Ride, Theoden, he said. Ride to Helm's Deep. Go not to the fords of Isen and do not tarry in the plain. I must leave you for a while. Shadowfax must bear me now on a swift errand. Turning to Aragorn and Eomer and the men of the king's household he cried, Keep well the Lord of the Mark till I return. Then await me at Helm's Gate. Farewell. He spoke a word to Shadowfax and like an arrow from the bow, the great horse sprang away. Even as they looked, he was gone. A flash of silver in the sunset. A wind over the grass. A shadow that fled and passed from sight. So we get a geographic location for that meeting with Charl. Not far east of the junction of the road with the branch going to the hornburg. That's about 90 miles to Isengard. But while the king and his forces head to Helm's Deep the chronicler tells us that Gandalf went directly to Isengard. Did not pass go, did not collect $200, arriving in the wee hours and leaving just 20 minutes later.

[Matt]

His route took him near the ford. So the chronicler assumes that he encountered the two leaders convinced them he was speaking for the king and took his suggestions as though they were orders. And we see that later in the story in the Lord of the Rings, after the Battle of the Hornburg, when they reach the fords on their way to parlay with Saruman they encounter the mound raised for Theodred.

[Alan Sisto]

Now that's when Gandalf explains to Theoden some men I sent with Grimbold of Westfold to join Erkenbrand. Some I set to make this burial. They have now followed your marshal, Elfel. I sent him with many riders to Edoras.

[Matt]

And by the way, a footnote tells us that Gandalf knew what was going on and that's why he raced up to Isengard. Gandalf must already have made contact with Treebeard and knew that the patience of the Ents was at an end. And he had also read the meaning of Legolas's words. Isengard was veiled in an impenetrable shadow. The Ents had already surrounded it.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, a quick epilogue before we wrap up. What happened to each of the Rohirric leaders that survived this battle. Right? Erkenbrand and Helm's Deep, Grimbold and Elfhelm here at the fords. And even Dunhaera, the lord of Harrowdale, who helped get everybody safely out of the camp. We're going to take a look at each of them Now. Erkenbrand showed up with a thousand men two mornings later, the morning of March 4th, to flip the Battle of Hornburg in their favor. He did not go go to the Battle of the Pelennor Fields. Instead, he was left to command the forces remaining to defend Rohan. And we'll cover more about that when we get into the appendix next week.

[Matt]

Yeah, and as for Grimbold, next week in the appendix we'll learn that Grimbold was chosen to take over the command of the muster of the Westfold. And he fought at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields where he was killed.

[Alan Sisto]

Along with Erkenbrand's nephew, Dunhera. He was one of the riders sent to Etteras so that he wasn't at the Battle of the Hornburg but he did join the Rohirrim at the Pelennor, where he was killed. And an excerpt from the Song of the Mounds of Munburg names both of them Harding and Guthlaf, Dunhera and Derwina, Doughty, Grimbold, Herfara and Heribrand Horn and Fastred fought and fell there in a far country in the mounds of Mundburg under mold they lie with their league fellows Lords of Gondor.

[Matt]

That sounds very old English, just like.

[Alan Sisto]

It's that alliteration.

[Matt]

The alliteration.

[Alan Sisto]

That's why I want to hear the oath of Eorle in alliterative verse.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah. And finally Elfhelm rode to Etterus under Gandalf's orders and then led the first eored of the Muster of the Eastmark to the battle of the Pelennor Fields. You'll remember he tripped over Merry and ignored the presence of Durnhelm Eowyn.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, he did, you know. He had to know he had to know. But he was just strategically ignoring. Now he actually survived the battle of the Pollend. And in the chapter the last debate we actually learned what he does next. But the main strength of the Rohirrim that remained horsed and able to fight some 3,000 under the command of Elfhelm should waylay the west road against the enemy. That was at Anorion.

[Matt]

And he was also present at the coronation of Aragorn.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes.

[Matt]

Before the barrier stood Faramir the Steward and Hurin Warden of the Keys and other captains of Gondor and the Lady Eowyn of Rohan with Elf Helm the Marshal and many knights of the Mark.

[Alan Sisto]

Yep, now we'll learn next week that he becomes the lieutenant of King Amer and his Marshal of the East Mark. But again, more on that next week. So Gandalf reached the Prancing Pony in the early darkness and left again in no more than 20 minutes. That's because he had no mail waiting for him. Matt, what does Bartlem and have in the bag for us tonight?

[Matt]

Today's question is from Brandon in Atlanta. And Brandon says for speculative fun let's say Bilbo doesn't fade faster on the shores of Valinor and instead lives a long time with Frodo and Sam for his inevitable book about the place. Because you know he's going to write one. Whom does he interview first? Does he interview any of the Valar or all of them for that matter? And is he successful in convincing Mandos to let him pester fail for an interview?

[Alan Sisto]

Unlikely. And anyway, who would want to talk to Feanor, right?

[Matt]

Could you even trust what the guy says?

[Alan Sisto]

You can trust that it's probably self serving in whatever way. Well, assuming Bilbo wants to be thorough though, let's think through how this plays out.

[Matt]

Yeah. Where's his starting point?

[Alan Sisto]

Well, his Starting point is Frodo and Sam. He's going to get the bulk of, like, what happened. Right, right.

[Matt]

But Frodo's already wrote his.

[Alan Sisto]

Right, yeah, yeah, he's going to. But he's going to interview Frodo about that, right? You always interview people about their books. I came on your show and you interviewed me about my book.

[Matt]

Oh, yeah, that's true. Okay, fair enough. Fair enough.

[Alan Sisto]

He's going to interview Frodo. I wonder, would he already have been doing this? Right.

[Matt]

So the question is a book about the place. So this is a book about Valinor.

[Alan Sisto]

So he's not going to really interview Frodo and Sam. Okay, yeah, yeah, that's a good point. An inevitable book about the place. Right? There's the question.

[Matt]

I mean, Galadriel is already on the boat and so is Gandalf.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm going to be pedantic here. Does he get beyond the shores of Toledora Sea? Yeah, I mean, I. I feel like he's just hanging out with the Tillery there. Yeah, he's probably not going to get all the way over to.

[Matt]

That's, you know, that's a great point.

[Alan Sisto]

Like Valmar, this the city of. I don't think he's gonna end up over there.

[Matt]

Do they have zoom calls there?

[Alan Sisto]

Zoom calls. Climbs to Neuquil, goes to the top.

[Matt]

Do you think Mendoz, like, just ghosts, him, you know, Mandas.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Life of the party, I think the only one that would maybe willingly talk to him. I gotta say, I think Tulkas really would.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, Tulkas would be like, I'll talk to you. Yeah, what's up?

[Matt]

I'll tell you of my deeds, my.

[Alan Sisto]

Deeds of strength, I guess.

[Matt]

Yeah, it depends on, you know, we're already making the accommodation that. That he lives a long time, you know, because he mentioned.

[Alan Sisto]

Brandon mentioned live long enough. I think he lives long enough to see Frodo. And then I think Frodo lives long enough to see Sam. I don't think Bilbo lives long enough to see Sam.

[Matt]

I don't think so either. Yeah. Because I mean, there's even like that, I think, is it in Morgoth's ring where, like, there. There's one in, like.

[Alan Sisto]

They burn. They like. Like moths in a flame.

[Matt]

Yes. Yeah. So, like, it's, it's. It's. Maybe it'll seem depressing, but it's like he might actually die faster by going to Valinor.

[Alan Sisto]

All right, so I had been where you were, which is, you know, mods. In a flame too bright. He's gonna die. Bilbo gets there. Frodo gets there, right? They get there on the same boat with Gandalf. Bilbo dies like a week later and Frodo makes it a year. Poof. They're just dust. It's sort of like, you know, you have chosen poorly and they just disintegrate. Great. But there was something that Sean and I looked at at the end of last season in the mailbag segment to 340, which is the very last episode of last year was the Gray Havens Part three. We'd been asked a question about Sam and why, you know, would Sam. Would Frodo have still been alive for Sam to meet up with? And we went to letter 246 and there was something very interesting there. Tolkien was explaining why Bilbo went with Frodo, that Bilbo went, no doubt as a completion of the plan due to Gandalf himself. Gandalf had a very great affection for Bilbo from the Hobbit's childhood onwards. But then he adds that Bilbo's companionship was really necessary for Frodo's sake. It is difficult to imagine a Hobbit, even one who had been through Frodo's experiences being really happy even in an earthly paradise without a companion of his own kind. And Bilbo was the person that Frodo most loved. And that part about Bilbo going because it was necessary for Frodo's sake that's what changed my mind about the answers. Whether Frodo's still alive when Sam gets there. I was always sure that there's zero chance that Frodo would live 61 years because that's how long it is before Sam goes. And that whole moth and a flame too bright. I just. Frodo is gone. But now, if Bilbo's going, and that's necessary for Frodo, I think Frodo lives because it would be necessary for Sam because Frodo is the one that Sam loves the most. He's clearly the person who suffered the most from Frodo's departure. And meeting him again would be that ultimate constellation. So I know we're just kind of rehashing that, but I feel like that's important to talk about.

[Matt]

Yeah, we're not answering the question at all, really.

[Alan Sisto]

No, we're buying some time, so. Because, okay, so he does get there. He lives a long time with Frodo. He may not live a very long time with Sam. I Actually kind of suspect that maybe Bilbo does fade out before Samurai's got maybe a short time him to himself. But I wanted to kind of clarify that because the idea of fading faster is changed a little bit for me. But. Yeah. So who does he talk to? He tries to talk to them all.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Do all of them are all.

[Matt]

Can you imagine? I just. I just had this image in my head of like, you know, like stealing from Baron and Luthien's story. Like Bilbo moving Mandos's heart with. With his tears or with his song.

[Alan Sisto]

Bilbo's going to move Mandos heart. It's going to be with like a cup and some seed cakes or something, you know? Oh yeah, it's going to be with something.

[Matt]

Maybe that's what it is. Maybe that's. The Hobbit version is like, look at the delicious meal I cooked you. Here's some second breakfast. It's like, oh, you've moved my heart so much.

[Alan Sisto]

I've lived for thousands of years and never knew about second breakfast. Who do you want to talk to? You want to talk to? Sure, go right ahead.

[Matt]

He's been cooped up for a long time.

[Alan Sisto]

He has. Oh, man.

[Matt]

Oh, my gosh.

[Alan Sisto]

Who does he talk to? He definitely talks to Tulkas. I don't know that everybody's going to want to talk to him. I kind of get the feeling that like, man Way and. And. And Varda are kind of like, nah, we're not going to stock up.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

They're just like, I'm the king of this place. I'm not going to. I'm not leaving a book. I mean, come on.

[Matt]

It's like, what. What books have you previously published?

[Alan Sisto]

Like, yeah, why should I talk?

[Matt]

Where are you on the New York Times bestseller list?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah. Ulmo. I don't know. Do you think Ulmo talks to him? Probably because he's on Tol Erasea, so he's hanging out more with the Tulare.

[Matt]

I mean, he was one of the more chatty valor, you know, in the first stage. Like he was.

[Alan Sisto]

That's true.

[Matt]

He was constantly telling people what they should do and they never listened to him. But.

[Alan Sisto]

No, they didn't.

[Matt]

That's some of.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, I mean, actually two are dead. Two hours. Pretty awesome.

[Matt]

I think you landed on like, with Tulkas. I think that is the most intriguing idea of like Tulka sitting down next to Bilbo and like. Yeah, them chatting it up. Like, that's. I don't know. That's far.

[Alan Sisto]

I Can throw you, little guy.

[Matt]

Right. That, that just is amusing to me in a. In a way that I don't think we're going to be able to top, probably.

[Alan Sisto]

I think he's hanging out with Tulka Sonessa. They're sort of the party couple.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, I mean, absolutely.

[Matt]

I. I would be remiss if I didn't, you know, bring up an absolutely beautiful writing that's also found in Morgoth's ring that has to do with, you know, all this. You know, the death in Valinor and everything. Yeah. So the, the text says the passing oversea therefore, of mortals after the catastrophe which is recorded in the Lord of the Rings is not, not quite the same thing. It was in any case, a special grace, an opportunity for dying according to the original plan for the unfallen.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes.

[Matt]

They went to a state in which they could acquire greater knowledge and peace of mind and being healed of all hurts, both of mind and body could at last surrender themselves, die of free will and even of desire in Estelle a thing which Aragorn achieved without any such aid. And you know, at the end of the day, like, it's fun to speculate about Bilbo lingering around long enough to write, you know, this big book, a big tome about Valinor but Because he would.

[Alan Sisto]

You're right. Yeah.

[Matt]

Yeah. The beauty of it is that, like, this is a. This is a guy who had, you know, this, this life, albeit a pretty happy one really, all things considered, stretched further than it should have been. And, you know, he can finally. I. I just love this idea, you know, I love it in Aragorn's story and I just love, love it for Bilbo too, that at the end of the day, like, he can finally welcome the gift of men after finding that healing on the shores of the uttermost West.

[Alan Sisto]

I agree. That is. That is amazing. Yeah. Yeah. Bilbo must have felt such a sense of completion. But I do hope he got to stick around long enough to write a book.

[Matt]

I think so. I hope he at least got some good stories because the guy loves a good story.

[Alan Sisto]

He does love a good story. I wonder, you know, who I hope he got to talk to. I know we never know that he made it right. We know that some say that Tuor is counted among the elves. I hope he got to talk to Tuor. I also hope, and I know this is certainly not, not well, I know this will not have been the case but Elendil's father who sailed off to try to pull arendelle but then nobody heard from again.

[Matt]

Yeah, I mean, Amandil, right?

[Alan Sisto]

Amandil. Yeah, I think that's his name. And yeah, he. We don't know if he made it. I mean, but of course, if he had, that would have been back in the second age. He definitely would have faded like him by now.

[Matt]

Yeah, but.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I mean, I was thinking of all the Valar in terms of interviews and stuff, but what about all the elves? I mean, Finrod for sure. Fingolfin. Hey, what was it like fighting against Morgoth?

[Matt]

Right? Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, just fantastic.

[Matt]

I've had better days.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I've had better days. Yeah. Oh, good stuff. Good stuff. I'm trying to think all the others that he would have talked to. That's too big a question. All right, folks, that does wrap it up for another episode of the Prancing Pony podcast. Be sure to come back next week when we get a deep dive into the Rohirrim command structure and see just why Isengard has been so much trouble.

[Matt]

Now, Alan and I want to thank the members of Team ppp as always, Editor Jordan Rannels Barlum and Becca Davis. Social media manager Casey Hilsey, Event and Patreon, community coordinator Katie McKenna, graphic artist Megan Collins and website guru Phil Dean.

[Alan Sisto]

Please take a minute to check out the Prancing Pony podcast dot com. That's where you'll find show notes, outtakes, Prancing Pony Pondering, and our online storefront where you can get PPP merch, including all the great episode artwork that Megan's been doing for the PPP over the last couple of seasons.

[Matt]

You'll also want to visit our library page. The Prancing Pony Podcast is, after all, a podcast about the books. So if you're interested in a book we've mentioned on the show, you'll find a link for it in our library. We do get a small amount of compensation when you make your purchase, and we thank you for that.

[Alan Sisto]

Indeed we do. And we also want to thank our patrons at the Kir Dan's contribution tier. I'll start with Demay in Alaska, Chad in Texas, Lance in New Jersey, Paul in Colorado, Joseph in Michigan, Kathy from North Carolina, Carlos in California, Brian in the uk, Jerry from Washington, Joe in Washington, Irwin from the Netherlands, Ben in Minnesota, Anthony in Texas, Zaksu in Illinois, Sarah in New Jersey, Joshua in Massachusetts, Lucy in Texas, Keith in Alabama, and Erica in Texas.

[Matt]

There's also Carson in Oklahoma, Vivian in California, James in Massachusetts, Ann in Kentucky, Sean in New Jersey, Mason in California, Maureen from Massachusetts, Olivia in London, Robert in Arizona, Nick in Wisconsin, Lewis in South Carolina, Thomas in Germany, Craig in California, Bailey in Texas, Kevin in Massachusetts, Julian Washington, Bruce in California, Joe in Maryland, Nathan in Arizona and Kevin in Pennsylvania. Thank you all so very much for your support indeed.

[Alan Sisto]

Thank you.

[Matt]

Make sure you don't miss any episodes of the Prancing Pony Podcast. Subscribe now through Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or your favorite podcast app.

[Alan Sisto]

And one last thing. As always, don't forget to send your thoughts, comments, and most of all, your winning strategy for defending the forwards of Eisen to barliman@the prancingponypodcast.com and if you.

[Matt]

Want your voice literally heard, well, just send us audio of your question, visit pod inbox.com prancingponypod and record your question for us. Please be sure to still email the question to Barlaman, though.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, even though Barlamon's been a lot more reliable lately, there is still a lot of mail to sort through. We'll try to get to you just as soon as we're able. As always, though, this has been far too short a time to spend among such excellent and admirable listeners.

[Matt]

But until next time, this is the end. We are going. We are leaving now. Goodbye.