366 – You’re the Inspiration

Summary

The Prancing Pony Podcast - Episode 366: "You’re the Inspiration" Summary

Introduction

In Episode 366 of The Prancing Pony Podcast titled "You’re the Inspiration," hosts Alan Sisto and Sara Brown delve deep into the intricate narratives of J.R.R. Tolkien’s Middle-earth, specifically focusing on the poignant tale of Aragorn and Arwen as found in Appendix A of The Lord of the Rings. This episode, released on April 6, 2025, marks the ninth season of the show, continuing the hosts' tradition of exploring Tolkien's legendarium with insightful discussions, humor, and a passion for the lore.

Philology Fair: Decoding Names and Meanings

The episode kicks off with the segment "Philology Fair," where Alan and Sara dissect the etymology and significance of names within Tolkien’s works. A central focus is on Aragorn’s mother, Gilraen, and the linguistic nuances surrounding her name.

• Gilraen vs. Gilraine: Sara highlights Christopher Tolkien’s notes on the similarity between the river Gilendre and Gilraen’s name, emphasizing the Sindarin distinctions between "ae" and "ai" ([05:11] Sara Brown).

• Meaning of Gilraen: Alan explores the meaning of Gilraen’s name as "adorned with a treasure," referencing Tolkien’s translation of medieval English terms ([05:50] Alan Sisto).

• Elvish Linguistic Complexity: Sara explains the medieval English term "tresoor," used by Gilraen’s father, Dirhael, illustrating the depth of Tolkien’s language creation ([05:53] Sara Brown).

The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen: Manuscript Insights

Alan and Sara transition into an in-depth analysis of Aragorn and Arwen’s backstory, drawing from both the published text and unpublished manuscripts.

• Marriage of Arathorn and Gilraen: They discuss the age disparity in Aragorn’s parents' marriage, noting cultural norms of the Dunedain where women typically married around 35 years old, equivalent to 22 in mortal terms ([14:44] Sara Brown).

• Prophecies and Foresight: Sara sheds light on the prophetic elements surrounding Aragorn’s lineage and destiny, referencing Tolkien’s letters about the theme of "hope without guarantees" ([32:03] Alan Sisto).

• Unpublished Manuscripts: The hosts reveal additional details from unpublished drafts, such as Aragorn’s upbringing in Rivendell and the lore behind the Ring of Barahir and the shards of Narsil, enhancing the depth of Aragorn’s character ([27:30] Alan Sisto).

Meeting Arwen: A Romantic Encounter

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to Aragorn’s first meeting with Arwen, paralleling the legendary meeting of Beren and Luthien.

• Aragorn’s Singing and Vision: At [40:18], Sara narrates Aragorn’s encounter where he, singing "The Lay of Luthien," perceives a maiden resembling Luthien, leading to their fateful meeting.

  Sara Brown [40:18]: "Aragorn had been singing a part of the Lay of Luthien which tells of the meeting of Luthien and Beren in the forest of Neldoreth."

• Arwen’s Response: Arwen challenges Aragorn’s assumption, questioning his identity and the validity of his vision, setting the stage for their intertwined destinies ([56:43] Alan Sisto).

  Arwen: "Who are you and why do you call me by that name?"

• Themes of Hope and Destiny: The conversation underscores themes of fate, free will, and the burdens of lineage, with Elrond’s warnings shaping Aragorn’s path toward kingship and his relationship with Arwen ([84:31] Sara Brown).

Character Development: Aragorn’s Trials and Growth

The discussion moves to Aragorn’s extensive journey fraught with trials, highlighting his evolution from a hopeful youth to a seasoned leader.

• Aragorn as Thorongil: Alan describes Aragorn’s alias, Thorongil, his strategic maneuvers against Sauron, and his friendship with Gandalf, showcasing his growth in wisdom and valor ([85:04] Alan Sisto).

  Alan Sisto [85:04]: "He made many perilous journeys but as the years wore on, he went more often alone. His ways were hard and long and he became somewhat grim to look upon unless he chanced to smile."

• Leadership and Wisdom: Sara and Alan discuss how Aragorn's upbringing in Rivendell and his Elvish wisdom contribute to his leadership qualities and his readiness to assume kingship over Gondor and Arnor ([87:00] Sara Brown).

Themes and Literary Analysis

Throughout the episode, the hosts explore overarching themes in Tolkien’s work, such as the interplay between destiny and agency, the burdens of heritage, and the sacrifices inherent in leadership and love.

• Hope Without Guarantees: Referring to Tolkien’s letters, Alan emphasizes the concept of hope as a central pillar in Aragorn and Arwen’s narrative, embodying the resilience required to face impending doom ([32:37] Sara Brown).

  Alan Sisto [32:37]: "Hope without guarantees, Estelle."

• Tragic Elements: Sara raises a thought-provoking question about the tragic nature of Aragorn and Arwen’s story, debating whether it fits the classical definition of tragedy or aligns more with Tolkien’s unique storytelling approach ([113:28] Sara Brown).

  Sara Brown [113:28]: "To what extent is the story of Arwen and Aragorn a tragedy?"

Conclusion: The Journey Ahead

As the episode wraps up, Alan and Sara reflect on the impending challenges Aragorn faces and the profound choices that lie ahead for both him and Arwen. They hint at future discussions surrounding Arwen’s pivotal decision to choose mortality for love and the resulting consequences for their lineage and Middle-earth.

• Foreshadowing Future Episodes: The hosts tease upcoming episodes that will delve into Aragorn’s further adventures and Arwen’s ultimate choice, promising deeper explorations of their enduring legacy ([116:52] Sara Brown).

Notable Quotes

• Alan Sisto [05:50]: "Gilraen as a woman's name. And its meaning is one adorned with a treasure."

• Sara Brown [32:37]: "Hope without guarantees, Estelle."

• Sara Brown [40:18]: "Aragorn had been singing a part of the Lay of Luthien which tells of the meeting of Luthien and Beren in the forest of Neldoreth."

• Arwen: "Who are you and why do you call me by that name?"

• Alan Sisto [85:04]: "He became somewhat grim to look upon unless he chanced to smile."

Final Thoughts

Episode 366 offers a rich, nuanced exploration of Aragorn and Arwen’s story, weaving together linguistic analysis, manuscript studies, and thematic discussions to provide listeners with a comprehensive understanding of their significance in Tolkien’s legendarium. Alan and Sara’s passionate discourse ensures that both seasoned Tolkien enthusiasts and newcomers alike can appreciate the depth and beauty of this central narrative.

For those who haven't listened, this summary captures the essence of the episode's key points, providing a gateway to the intricate world of Middle-earth as envisioned by Tolkien.

Transcript

[Alan Sisto]

One of the nice things about being a podcaster is I get to wear really comfortable shoes when I work. And I've found some shoes that fit the bill too. Hands free Skechers slip ins. You just step into your Skechers slip ins and they're on. No bending over and struggling with your shoes. Hush with the old jokes. Look, I'm capable of doing that, but I just don't want to. And skip tying my shoes. Yes please. And my first question was, how the heck do these things work? Well, it feels like there's an invisible built in shoehorn, so your foot slides right in and their exclusive heel pillow keeps your foot comfy and secure. Now the tech is great, but what impressed me was just how many types of shoes Skechers offers with this hands free slip ins tech. Casual shoes, work shoes, athletic shoes need a higher arch. Or maybe you need a wide fit like me. Or maybe you want some summer sandals for walking along the beach. Skechers has them. Great value for money and honestly, easy to find. Skechers.com, skechers stores or really wherever stylish footwear is sold. Go to Skechers.com prancingpony and use code prancing for 20% off site. Wide standard exclusions apply. That's Skechers.com prancingpphony Prancing pony is all one word there. And use code prancing for 20% OFF now through May 30th.

[Sara Brown]

Wow, this house is cute. But can I really get in the.

[Alan Sisto]

Game in this economy?

[Sara Brown]

I do have savings and I am responsible. Ish. I should bury it. I'm being wild. But what if I'm not being wild though?

[Alan Sisto]

Could I actually score a kick off your home buying journey with Zillow's new buyability tool? It makes it easy to find out what you can afford so you can get off the bench and onto the playing field with confidence. Check your buyability only on Zillow. Good evening, little masters, and welcome to episode 366 of the Prancing Pony podcast, where Gil Ryan's dad just channels every dad ever.

[Sara Brown]

But fortunately, for the sake of the future of Middle Earth, his wife had a bit more foresight.

[Alan Sisto]

That's true, folks.

[Sara Brown]

Put up a bench in the common room and join us. I'm Sara, the shield maiden of Rohan, and I'm here with the man of the west, who is a stern man of full age, Alan Sisto.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a nice way of saying I'm old. I appreciate it. Let's just hope that I don't prove short lived for one of my race or this show's only going to last for four more years, folks. Join us as Sara and I get back on track in the appendices mostly as we be begin the tale of Aragorn and Arwen found in Appendix A.

[Sara Brown]

Short lived. I'm just doing a little maths on my fingers. Four years, is it only four years?

[Alan Sisto]

I believe he was 60 when he died. Yes, with the orc arrow in the eye and frankly I'd rather just I can I volunteer for in my sleep rather than orc arrow would be less painful wouldn't it? Much, much.

[Sara Brown]

Anyway, I think that's enough about Alan's.

[Alan Sisto]

Age and his impending death. Yes, for now.

[Sara Brown]

And his impending death. Yes folks, no matter how you've arrived, you're all welcome here in the common room at the Prancing Pony Podcast. We are reading and talking our way through Middle Earth with plenty of speculation and some terrible jokes along the way, guaranteed.

[Alan Sisto]

Folks, we do love discussing our favorite themes and a whole lot more, but.

[Sara Brown]

We will try to keep it light and fun, just like a couple of friends chatting at the pub. And we're really glad you joined us.

[Alan Sisto]

And I'm sure you'll be glad you joined as well. But before we get to tonight's chapter discussion, it's time for fan favorite Philology Fair. Now tonight we'll be introduced to a young woman by the name of Gilrein, and that's G I L R A E N. Now back in episode 298, Gimli, in his retelling of their journey from the Paths of the Dead, mentioned crossing the river Gilroy G I L L R A I n. Now we talked about the river's name a bit back then, but now it's time to talk about the name of Aragorn's mother.

[Sara Brown]

So in the Rivers and Beacon Hills of Gondor, which is an essay included in the Nature of Middle Earth, we get a note from Tolkien on the similarity of the river's name with tonight's familiar name, and he says this resembles the name of Aragorn's mother, Gilrain, but unless it is misspelt, must have had a different meaning. Originally, the difference between correct Sindarin ae and AI was neglected, AI being more usual in English, being used for both in the general narrative. And he then goes on to give us some specific examples of this AIAE thing. Dairon, now corrected, that was with AI for Dairon ae, a derivative of Sindarin dire large or Great. Hithy glir on map for hithy glir, first one with AI, second one with ae, and eyeglass. With an AI. For eyeglass with an ae.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. And that's hard to translate in a. In an audio format. Right? I mean, you're seeing it in print, the ae, you know, and the AI and all of that, but, you know, that's how it got changed. So he goes on in quite some depth explaining the meaning of Gil Rhine as a woman's name. And its meaning is one adorned with a treasure, T R E S S U R E set with small gems in its network. Now, I had to dig quite a bit on this one. All the dictionaries were telling me that treasure, which is spelled like treasure, but replacing that a with a second s means either a decorative border near the edge of a shield, or on coins, an ornamental enclosure containing a figure or device. Neither of those made any sense.

[Sara Brown]

Not really. Not in this sense, does it?

[Alan Sisto]

No.

[Sara Brown]

But Christopher, in explaining this note of his father's, writes, quote, tresure, a net for confining the hare, is a word of medieval English, which my father had used in his translation of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, where the original has the form tresoor, T R E S S O U R. And that gave us what we needed to research the word that is a net, a binding for the hair, a headdress, also an ornamented arrangement of the hair into plaits or coils, etc.

[Alan Sisto]

And that makes so much sense. By the way, very impressive French. Can you say tresoor again? Because I certainly can't.

[Sara Brown]

Tresor.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, I.

[Sara Brown]

You're welcome.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm very impressed.

[Sara Brown]

Listen to me very carefully. I will say this only once.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, we would have known about that tresor and the headdress thing from context if we just looked up the one other thing that Christopher pointed to as an example of a tresor, the Tresor of Arwen described in the Lord of the Rings. The issue there was that the word tresor does not appear even once in the book. So doing a little E word search for it gives me a blank. But he does give us a page reference. And that leads us to this quote from many meetings. As Frodo walks into the hall, we get his viewpoint on all these incredible characters in there. And that's where we read. Above her brow, her head was covered with a cap of silver lace, netted with small gems glittering white, with her, of course, being Arwen.

[Sara Brown]

So going back to that essay, the rivers and beacon hills of Gondor in the nature Middle Earth. We read that Tolkien first suggested that Aragorn's mother might have been given the name Gil Rhine as a second name, quote, after she had come to womanhood, which, as often happens in legends, had replaced her true name, no longer recorded. But he gives up on that very Tolkien, saying it's more likely to be her real name because she was of the remnants of the Numenoreans of the North Kingdom of Unmingled Blood.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, later, Tolkien explains that the element Rhine, and that's R A E, N, not the one with the AI version, was the Sindarin form of Quenya reine, netted in laced. And that would seem to clear up the two Gilreynes. Gilreins, right, the name of Aragorn's mother, the name of the river. But not quite, because a couple of paragraphs later, Tolkien adds, in Gilreind, the river, the element rhine, though similar, was distinct in origin. Probably, he says, it was derived from base ran R a n meaning wander, stray, go on uncertain course, the equivalent of Quenya Rania.

[Sara Brown]

But as none of the rivers in this part of Gondor wander, stray or go on uncertain course, Tolkien is still not satisfied. He goes on to summarise the tale of Amroth and Nimrodel and finally draws the conclusion that the river's name being derived from the base Ran R a n Wanda, was not because of the water course, but because of Nimrodel's straying and wandering and. Nice retrofit there, Tolkien.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. So good at that. He does also point out a couple of other names that use that same Ron root. Mithrandir. Right. The Gray Wanderer, as well as the Noldoran name for the moon, Rana, meaning the wayward. Pedantic, I suppose, but no less interesting for that. But now we are digressing, since this was about Gilrain, the mother of Aragorn, not Gilrain, the river in Gondor.

[Sara Brown]

But that was our first discussion about AI in this.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, AI. Clever. I like that. Well done.

[Sara Brown]

But moving swiftly on, shall we get to our chapter, the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen?

[Alan Sisto]

I'm excited for this. This should be great.

[Sara Brown]

So am I.

[Alan Sisto]

All right, I'm going to start at the very beginning. I literally mean the heading because it's important. So here we go.

[Sara Brown]

It's a very good place to start, apparently. The beginning.

[Alan Sisto]

That's what I hear Here follows a part of the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen. Arador was the grandfather of the king, his son Arathorn sought in marriage Gilraen the fair daughter of Dirhael, who was himself a descendant of Aranarth. To this marriage Dirhael was opposed, for Gilrain was young and had not reached the age at which the women of the Dunedain were accustomed to marry. Moreover, he said, arathorn is a stern man of full age and will be chieftain sooner than men looked. For yet my heart forebodes that he will be short lived. But Ivorwen, his wife, who was also foresighted, answered the more need of haste. The days are darkening before the storm and great things are to come. If these two wed now, hope may be born for our people. But if they delay, it will not come while this age lasts. And it happened that when Arathorne and Gilraen had been married only one year, Arador was taken by hill trolls in the Coldfells north of Rivendell and was slain. And Arathorn became chieftain of the Dunedain. The next year, Gilraen bore him a son and he was called Aragorn. But Aragorn was only two years old when Arathorn went riding against the orcs with the sons of Elrond. And he was slain by an orc arrow that pierced his eye. And so he proved indeed short lived, for one of his race being but 60 years old when he fell. Then Aragorn, being now the heir of Isildur, was taken with his mother to dwell in the house of Elrond. And Elrond took the place of his father and came to love him as a son of his own. But he was called Estelle, that is hope. And his true name and lineage were kept secret at the bidding of Elrond. For the wise then knew that the enemy was seeking to discover the heir of Isildur, if any remained upon Earth.

[Sara Brown]

Cracking start to a story, isn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

Gets going right there. Full speed. Let's move.

[Sara Brown]

We'll just get this death and this death and this death out of the way.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. Yeah. Yes. And also get Dirhyle's opposition to the marriage out of the way very quickly indeed.

[Sara Brown]

Yes, yes. Slide that to one side because we have to get cracking because things are afoot and so they better get married quick. But you said you were going to start at the very, very beginning, which included the title. And I think you're absolutely right because we should start by pointing out the way that this part of Appendix A is described at the very beginning. Here follows a part of the tale.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. It's just a snippet. If you will. And it wasn't always this way. Peoples of Middle Earth Making of Appendix A. Christopher walks us through what he says is a rough, much corrected manuscript that was not a part of the tale.

[Sara Brown]

So he doesn't know precisely when it was written, but he suggests that the way the story underwent changes may indicate that it had been in existence for some time when my father was working on the Narrative of the Realms in Exile portion of Appendix A.

[Alan Sisto]

Right. The stuff that was much earlier in the. In Appendix A that dawn and I covered earlier this season. The published text Here in Appendix A1 5 follows that manuscript very closely from around the point that we're going to end today's reading. But it's actually quite a bit fuller in the earlier part, so we're going to look to it from time to time to flesh out some details.

[Sara Brown]

Isn't it fantastic that we get all these extra bits from the history of Middle Earth, though?

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, it's great. It's so great because, I mean, the.

[Sara Brown]

Tale of Aragon and Arwen is already fleshing out their story, and very much so in the case of Arwen. Right.

[Alan Sisto]

I was going to say giving us a story to begin with for Arwen.

[Sara Brown]

Right, right. But then the fact that we can flesh out the fleshing out if we're going to go really for the flesh from. From the history of Middle Earth is just absolutely fantastic.

[Alan Sisto]

But it really is.

[Sara Brown]

Let's get back to the text, because as the text we read, we get straight into the story. Arador's son, Arathorn seeks the hand of Gilrain the Fair, and she is the daughter of Dirhael and his Ivorwen, which is such a beautifully Welsh sounding name.

[Alan Sisto]

Right, yeah, it is, isn't it?

[Sara Brown]

Yes, yes, gorgeous. Dirhael is descended from Aranarth.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, Aranarth was the son of Arvedui, last King of Arthedain, and his wife Firiel. Now, this would make him, and thus Dirhael descended from both the lines of Isildur through Arvedui and Anarion through Firiel.

[Sara Brown]

Right, so this is obviously going to be incredibly important for Aragorn.

[Alan Sisto]

100%. Yes, it is.

[Sara Brown]

So the fact that he has to trace his lineage to show that he is the rightful king of Gondor. I mean, it's a bit sort of jinx to the left, jinx to the right, slides around the corner, but it's there, right?

[Alan Sisto]

It definitely is, yeah.

[Sara Brown]

So back to the tale. Gilrain is young. Now we look at the Tale of Years, and in there it says she was born in the year 2907. And she marries Arathorne in 2929. And she's only 22, whereas Arathorne was born in 2873, which makes him 56. You know, cringing slightly.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm kind of cringing too. I'm 56 and I'm just not thinking that marrying a 22 year old would be on my list of things to do. Yes, but that's today's culture, right? I mean, that's today's culture. Yes, that's the thing. I mean, back then. Back then, like this is a real history, but it is kind of a real. The point is, it's not the age gap itself that's the problem and we're going to get into the details of that. It's that the women of the Dunedin typically didn't marry that young. That's really all it was.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

If we go to. Back to the nature of Middle Earth, we look at the chapter called the Lives of the Numenoreans. And Don and I looked at this at length during our chapters on Numenor. We read there that thus a Numenorean woman might marry when 20 marriage before full growth was not permitted. But most usually she married at about 40 to 45 years. And of course that was actually the equivalent of 24 or 25 for a normal human.

[Sara Brown]

Right. Because we have to remember their extended lifespan.

[Alan Sisto]

Extended lifespan. Now, marriage was considered unduly delayed if it was postponed much beyond her 95th year, which was about 35. Yeah, well, you know, I got married a little late. I was 97. 95th year for a Numenorean woman would have been about the age of a 35 year old in normal mortal life.

[Sara Brown]

But on the other hand, it says men seldom married before their year 45, which is the equivalent of 25. And postponement of marriage to about the 95th year. Age 35 was very common. And especially in the case of men of rank or high duty or great talents, whatever those might be, because I'm sure being able to play the violin doesn't count.

[Alan Sisto]

No, I don't think so.

[Sara Brown]

No, no, I play the piccolo. I am not marrying until I'm 160 anyway. So especially in the case of these blokes, it was not seldom entered into as late as the 120th year.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Which is age 40.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Now, of course, plenty of time to sow your oats.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly, exactly. Now it is tough to draw exact parallels because by this time their lifespan is shorter. These. These Dunedine. It's not the full Numenorean lifespan, but we get the idea that they do typically live longer. Certainly we know Aragorn does. I mean, he's an exception rather than the rule. But the chieftains did typically live longer lifespans. So it's not a surprise necessarily that Arathorn would be older and that there would be an age gap. It's just that she was literally too young to get married yet. Like, that's just not what they did in this culture. 22 is borderline too young, Right?

[Sara Brown]

Yes. So we're going back to what we were saying there. It's not so much about the age gap, which in our primary world culture it absolutely would be about.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that would be a huge age gap. 56, 22 is a problem.

[Sara Brown]

I would definitely be judging.

[Alan Sisto]

I'd have a hard time not. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

But in this secondary world, it's more about the fact that Gilrain is proposing to get married far younger than her parents would actually like. Now, interestingly, the text here poses this as Der Heil's opposition. So dad isn't happy.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that's right.

[Sara Brown]

Not Evorwen, who we'll see supports this. And most importantly, not Gilrein's. But I just want to point out that Gil Rhines reference isn't mentioned at all.

[Alan Sisto]

Not at all, not once, not even at all. Do we care what the. What the bride thinks? Apparently not. It is a shortened version of the story, let's be fair, because in that manuscript we referenced earlier, we actually do get some more detail there. We read a similar line to that in the final text, but with this very important addition. But Gil Rhine was younger than the age at which women of the Dunedain were want at that time to take husbands. And she did not desire to be a wife and sought the counsel of her parents. So again, again, it's not, oh, Arathorn's too old for me. It's I don't want to get married yet. So mom, dad, what should I do? And it's really interesting that that's where we're going with that.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. I've got to say that that last bit there. She did not yet desire to be a wife. Makes it even ickier.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

One has to hope that she at least wanted, if she was going to be married, to be with him.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes. I mean, we're hoping this is not EOL and Aredhel. She was not wholly unwilling. That's a terrible. I cringe thinking of that.

[Sara Brown]

Do you know that one? Whenever I hear that line, my spine curls over my hands go to claws and my teeth grit. Yes. Oh, boy.

[Alan Sisto]

John Ronald, that means she was partially unwilling, thank you very much. And yeah, I don't think that's the case here. But it is interesting that we don't get an explanation of her preference. We just get her dad's text in the final version of the story.

[Sara Brown]

Right. So in both versions, both the one we get published in appendix A and the slightly extended version that's in the history of Middle Earth, we get Dirhael expressing his concern that Arathorne will become chieftain soon, but he won't live very long. So this is. Kids, you better get married because the husband's gonna die soon.

[Alan Sisto]

Except he doesn't want to. He doesn't want them to. I mean, that's more like Yvorwyn's position, right? He's like, he's gonna die soon. So you don't want to get married to this guy.

[Sara Brown]

Right. Whereas Evorwyn is like, he's gonna die soon, so you better get married soon.

[Alan Sisto]

Better hurry up and marry him because. Yeah, exactly.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, right. So it's interesting that Yvorwyn seems to see further than Dirhael, who interestingly seems to be the one who's a bit more focused on his daughter's well being.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

She foresees that if Gilrain marries Arathorn right away it says in the text, hope may be born for our people. Which of course is, you know, a.

[Alan Sisto]

Really evocative sentence, especially when you find out Aragorn's name later is Estelle or Hope.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, right. With the caveat that if they don't, hope won't come in the Third Age. I mean, no pressure.

[Alan Sisto]

No, I know, daughter, you're not ready to get married, but you not only should get married pretty quickly, you probably should have a kid pretty quickly.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, get on that. Because without you, the world will come to an end.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, no pressure at all. Now, in the manuscript version, we actually get an even more clear prophecy from Evorwen. Her name was spelled Evorwen with an e in the draft. She said, then if these two wed, their child shall be great among the great in this age of the world. And he shall bring the Dunedain out of the shadows. So a very explicit. Makes me think of like Arved we and Malbeth. You know, with Malbeth being really clear about what's going to happen. I mean, good heavens, Arved we means last King. So.

[Sara Brown]

Yes, you think it'd be fairly obvious.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. You name your son Last King because he's Going to be the last king. This is interesting. What do you think was the reason why Tolkien, maybe just from a literary perspective, turns to changing this into something vague?

[Sara Brown]

Well, I think that you want something vague rather than something incredibly specific here because first of all, you don't really want to have Evorwen as some kind of witch figure, you know, peering into a crystal ball.

[Alan Sisto]

Right, yeah, that's fair.

[Sara Brown]

But I think the idea that those of a certain bloodline perhaps had the ability to foresee. And foreseeing, of course, is going to bring with it some mists and shadows as you try and peer into the future. Because this is not something that's happened or is happening. It is something that might happen depending on which sliding door you go through. So I think keeping it vague is actually quite true to the idea of having someone like Evorwen. It's a prophecy, but it's. It's the right kind of prophecy. It's not fortune telling in the sense of, okay, if you do this, this will happen.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[Sara Brown]

This might come about.

[Alan Sisto]

If you do, hope may be born for our people.

[Sara Brown]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, really, the only clear part in the final version of the text is that if you don't, we're all ruined. Yeah, exactly.

[Sara Brown]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

There's no guarantee that it will, but the guarantee is that it won't if you don't. So.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, and I think that's really important because Tolkien does talk a lot about destiny, fate, and free will and all that kind of thing. It's so central to so many of his stories. I mean, poor old Turin knows all about that.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Right. But you also have characters having choice.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes.

[Sara Brown]

So hope may come, but Aragorn has to choose.

[Alan Sisto]

He has to do his job too. Right. He has to pursue all that. Yeah. I mean, this idea of he shall bring the Dunedain out of the shadows in the first version, you wonder, okay, maybe Gilrain hears that. Well, we know Gilran hears that. Does she pass that on to Aragorn? Does she put that pressure on him?

[Sara Brown]

Because it would be a lot of pressure.

[Alan Sisto]

That would be a ton of pressure. You're basically going to bring our people out of the shadows. At the same time, he has a gift of foresight as well. So he sort of. He knows, but he knows in that vague sense as well. So I think, yeah, this might happen, but there needs to be room for the fact that it might not.

[Sara Brown]

Right. And also, if you have this idea of, okay, I am going to be this, yeah, then there's no sense of having to do anything. To achieve it.

[Alan Sisto]

Right. You're just waiting for yourself.

[Sara Brown]

I will wake up next Thursday and I will be the King of Gondor.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah. Somehow it works, right? Not in Middle Earth. No. Especially not if you're a man. If you're an elf, maybe. Because we could talk about the music being as fate to all else, but that does not come into play here.

[Sara Brown]

No, it doesn't, no.

[Alan Sisto]

With men. Yeah. He's got to do something.

[Sara Brown]

He has to. And of course, we do know, as we get further into this story, we do know that he has to prepare himself, and he does many things to prepare himself.

[Alan Sisto]

Decades worth.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Which is one of the reasons why he's in his 80s when we get to the Lord of the Rings. But I think it's very important that Tolkien keeps building in this idea of not only does he have to make the right choices at the right time, but he has to be proactive. He has to decide to do things so that the end may be achieved. Because if he just sat in Imladris getting fat on bon bons, then it wouldn't happen.

[Alan Sisto]

No, you're right. Absolutely it wouldn't.

[Sara Brown]

Although sitting in Imladris getting fat on bon bons in the hall of Fire sounds awesome.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, it sounds like what Bilbo does. Really?

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, yeah, I'm with Bilbo on that one.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm all for it.

[Sara Brown]

All right, so the published version of this tale goes straight to them being married a year when Arathon's father, Arador is killed. And of course, that immediately puts Arathon right up there because he has to step up and become chieftain straight away. Right. So the draft, though, does give us a change of heart for Gilrain, who, it says, consented and was wedded to Arathorne. But the one year timeline remains.

[Alan Sisto]

I like that. You know, we get that explicit mention that she chose to go ahead and do this. We don't hear that she was utterly excited about it, but she at least consented. So she was.

[Sara Brown]

Yes, that's fairly.

[Alan Sisto]

She was not unwilling at all to adapt the AOL line. Yeah. So in both the published version and the draft, Gil Rhian does give birth to Aragorn a year after Arathorn's ascent to the chieftainship, or two years after Aragorn's grandfather Arador is killed. And in both of those, Aragorn is only two years old when his father is killed. I mean, this is like you said, death after death, after death. But this is where the manuscript adds a lot more. And I really want to get into that, rather than waiting until Arathorn is killed to move to Rivendell. In the draft version, we read that, and Aragorn, being now the son of the heir of Isildur, went with his mother and dwelt in the house of Elrond in Imladris, for such was the custom in that day. And Elrond had in his keeping the heirlooms of the Dunedain, chief of which were the shards of the sword of Elendil, who came to Middle Earth out of Numenor at its downfall. In his boyhood, Arathorn also had been fostered in that house.

[Sara Brown]

Right. And that's quite different because instead of Gilrain seeking shelter.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

It's. This is normal. This is what happens.

[Alan Sisto]

Arathorn was fostered there. Now Aragorn, it's his turn to be fostered there. Yeah. Changes that dynamic quite a bit.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. Positively feudal, actually. But that's not all, because check this, the story of Calabrian is originally found here, of all places. Right. As a backstory for why they often pursued Orcs and why Arathorn was with them when he got killed.

[Alan Sisto]

I love that. Yep.

[Sara Brown]

Right, so if you haven't heard that story, here's how it's related in this manuscript version of the story of Aragorn and Arwen. Now, the sons of Elrond did not hunt wild beasts, but they pursued the orcs wherever they might find them. And this they did because of Celebrian, their mother, daughter of Galadriel. On a time long ago, as she passed over the mountains to visit her mother in the land of Lorien, orcs waylaid the road and she was taken captive by them and tormented. And though she was rescued by Elrond and his sons and brought home and tended, and her hurts of body were healed, she lay under a great cloud of fear and she loved Middle Earth no longer, so that at the last, Elrond granted her prayer and she passed to the Grey Havens and went into the west, never to return.

[Alan Sisto]

I like that. It was originally part of this story. It fits. I mean, this is Arwen's mother. I mean, it really absolutely fits here. But, I mean, I'm glad at least we got the story elsewhere, but we got it. So after this, the manuscript gives us those same events surrounding Arathorne's death. Right. Hunting with the sons of Elrond gets, you know, hunting orcs, gets killed by the orcs, dies. But it does give us more insight into the time that Aragorn spent in Rivendell between that point where he's only two and the time that we pick up in the next reading when he's 20. And I really like this. There's. I feel like this gives us so much more depth to the relationship between he and Elrond as well as the relationship he has with Elrond's sons. But the child Aragorn became thus untimely chieftain of the Dunedain and he was nurtured in the house of Elrond. And there he was loved by all. And Elrond was a father to him. Straight and tall he grew with gray eyes both keen and grave. And he was hardy and valiant and strong of wit and eager to learn all lore of elves and men. And when he was still but a youth yet strong withal he went abroad with Elladan and Elrohir and learned much of hunting and of war and many secrets of the wild. But he knew naught of his own ancestry for his mother did not speak to him of these things nor any else in that house. And it was at the bidding of Elrond that these matters were kept secret. For there was at that time a shadow in the east that crept over many lands and filled the wise with foreboding. Since they had discovered that this was indeed the shadow of Sauron, the Dark lord that had returned to Middle Earth again and that he desired to find the one ring that Isildur took and sought to learn if any heir of Isildur yet lived upon Earth. And the spies of Sauron were many. Love it.

[Sara Brown]

Right. But did you notice what's missing in that draft, though? Aragorn's name, Estelle Hope. It's not there.

[Alan Sisto]

You're right.

[Sara Brown]

What do you think of that?

[Alan Sisto]

We're told that he's not given any background on who he is on his backer, but we're not given a replacement name. That is interesting. That is interesting. I wonder if that's one of the things that he developed later on, like this idea of the name meaning hope. Because we noticed earlier in the change of the manuscript where the prophecy. Right, where the original prophecy was. Yes. If you get married now, you're going to have a son and he's going to leave the Dunedain, bring them out of the shadows. But in that prophecy, there's no mention of hope. Hope comes in in the published version where hope may be born for our people. Yeah. It feels like that hope thing was like a late entry, like a decision as he's condensing the story because Christopher explains to us that he did have to condense the story down in order to make it fit here, because he wasn't sure where it was going to go. And we'll get to more of that this weekend. Next.

[Sara Brown]

But, yeah, but what a thing to pluck out to help to distill the story down.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes.

[Sara Brown]

To come up with this concept of Estelle, which, of course, is actually really super important to his whole cosmology.

[Alan Sisto]

It's central to it. Absolutely. We will talk more again next week about this draft and why the changes took place. But I also want to add one other thing. It's about how central this story was for Tolkien himself. For this, I'm going to go to the letters. Letter 181 is a set of drafts that Tolkien had written to Michael Strait, and they're just drafts that never got out there. But Tolkien wrote that what he was concerned with in writing the Lord of the Rings, in part at least, was death as part of the nature, physical and spiritual, of man and with hope without guarantees. And there we go. There's Estelle right there in the letter.

[Sara Brown]

Clearly actually defines it. Right.

[Alan Sisto]

It really does. Hope without guarantees, Estelle. And then he continues. That is why I regard the tale of Arwen and Aragorn as the most important of the appendices. It is part of the essential story and is only placed so because it could not be worked into the main narrative without destroying its structure.

[Sara Brown]

Wow. I mean, I really want to return to that statement, the most important of the appendices, when we get to the end of talking about this tale, because I really would love to pick out all of the things that make this the most important thing, because I think there's actually two or three central things in this tale that are core principles to Tolkien's world. That includes Estelle, which is, of course, hope aligned with faith. As you said, hope without guarantees.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[Sara Brown]

And of course, there's the use of that when Aragorn chooses to lay down his life to give up on that. And then we have Arwen and what happens to her when she understands that Aragorn is going to choose to die. So, yeah, I would love to return to that. Let's do that.

[Alan Sisto]

Absolutely.

[Sara Brown]

He's talking there about how it could not be worked into the main narrative without destroying its structure, which is important because it was the fact that it had to be reduced to fit into the appendices that explains this truncated version that we have published. But fortunately, we've got this longer version to look at. And we'll come back to that again, Right?

[Alan Sisto]

Yes. We will, Matt. When I think about businesses that are just blowing up, you know, selling through the roof, like Allbirds shoes or Gymshark, where I've bought some stuff, the first thing that hits me is that they sell a great product. Or maybe it's a cool brand. But something that people often overlook is the business behind the business that makes selling. And for shoppers, buying simple. And for millions of businesses, that business is Shopify. Fact is, nobody does their selling better than Shopify, the home of the number one checkout on the planet. Their shop pay boosts conversions by up to 50%. So way fewer carts are abandoned and more sales go. So if you're looking to grow your business, your commerce platform has to be ready to sell wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling on their feed or in your store. Businesses that sell more sell on Shopify. Upgrade your business and get the same checkout that Gymshark uses. Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com pony all lowercase go to shopify.com pony to upgrade your selling today. Shopify.com pony now, folks, a while back I told you about Mando, the whole body deodorant. And now that I've had a couple more months to use even more of their products, I just wanted to come back and tell you all just how much I like it. And not just me either. My son, he's 13. He's just at that age where, well, he's having to learn what deodorant actually is. He's been using Mando too. And let me just say I'm grateful. Mando is a whole body deodorant. So you don't just use it on your armpits. Any place on your body that could use a bit of odor control, you can use Mando there. Yeah, there too. It's proven to block and control odors all day long, actually up to 72 hours, even in this tiny podcast booth. And it's available in solid stick spray or even cream. Now, personally, I like the Pro sport scent, but Clover woods is becoming a close second for me. Now, Mando's starter pack is perfect for new customers. It includes both a solid stick and cream deodorants and two more free products of your choice like their mini body wash or the deodorant wipes, which are perfect for travel along with free shipping, of course. And as a special offer for our listeners, new customers get $5 off a starter pack with our exclusive code that equates to over 40% off your starter pack. Just use code [e-mail] S-H-O-P M A N D O.COM and please support our show. Tell them we sent you smell fresher, stay drier and boost your confidence from head to toe with Mando Now. Soon we'll get back to Estelle in Rivendell, but before we do, we want to remind you there's a lot more talk going on at the Prancing Pony Podcast than just us.

[Sara Brown]

Nice bit of rhyming there, Alan.

[Alan Sisto]

I try.

[Sara Brown]

The PPP has an amazing listener community. They're always coming up with great questions and discussions across all our social media spaces. Check out our Common room on Facebook, our dedicated subreddit, Twitter and more.

[Alan Sisto]

Now on Facebook, just look for the Prancing Pony podcast. Follow the page to get the news and episode drops, but join the group to get involved in some great discussions.

[Sara Brown]

On Twitter, Instagram, Bluesky, Twitch, TikTok, and YouTube. We're rancingponypod, but if you prefer Reddit, find us there at R prancingponypod.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. And if you want daily Tolkien content, please check out today's Tolkien times on the PPP YouTube channel and on all your favorite podcast apps. It's my short format daily show with everything from Middle Earth Map Mondays to Silmarillion Saturdays. And then there's my new twice weekly streaming of all fun things Middle Earth on the PPP plays. Be sure to check both of them out on the YouTube Chann channel for all the PPP productions at YouTube.com dancingponypod for now though, we are going to get back into this incredible story and ah, we have such a moment coming up. Sarah, take us away.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, I'm going to pick it up from here. All right, here we go. Here is the ring of Barahir, he said, the token of our kinship from afar. And here also are the shards of Narsil. With these you may yet do great deeds, for I foretell that the span of your life shall be greater than the measure of men, unless evil befalls you, or you fail at the test. But the test will be hard and long. The sceptre of Annuminas I withhold, for you have yet to earn it. The next day, at the hour of sunset, Aragorn walked alone in the woods, and his heart was high within him, and he sang, for he was full of hope, and the world was fair. And suddenly, even as he sang, he saw a maiden walking on a greensward among the white stems of the birches. And he Halted, amazed, thinking that he had strayed into a dream or else that he had received the gift of the elf minstrels who can make the things of which they sing appear before the eyes of those that listen. For Aragorn had been singing a part of the Lay of Luthien which tells of the meeting of Luthien and Beren in the forest of Neldoreth. And behold, there Luthien walked before his eyes in Rivendell clad in a mantle of silver and blue fair as the twilight in Elvenhome. Her dark hair strayed in a sudden wind and her brows were bound with gems like stars. For a moment, Aragorn gazed in silence. But fearing that she would pass away and never be seen again, he called to her, crying, tinuviel to Neuviel, even as Beren had done in the elder days long ago.

[Alan Sisto]

That was beautiful. You know, we did have to skip the very first paragraph because I always have to skip something. That's where we learn that 18 years later. So Aragorn's 20. The boy has grown into a young man. And as we saw in the draft version, he's a man with some significant advantages. Right. He's been nurtured in the house of Elrond and there he was loved by all and Elrond was a father to him.

[Sara Brown]

Don't you feel the resonances with the tale of Turin in that?

[Alan Sisto]

Uh huh. Yep.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, I'm sure we'll get to that.

[Alan Sisto]

There's so many first stage connections here. I mean, we're about to get to Beren and Luthien but we also have sort of the, the echoes of Huor about hope, you know, will come from us. If, you know, get out of here, go, go back to Gondolin. We'll protect you. Because from you and from me a star will be born, you know.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, right, Right. So Aragorn comes back from a trip with Elladan and Elrohir, presumably involving lots of dead Orcs. One can only hope.

[Alan Sisto]

Yep.

[Sara Brown]

And Elrond sees him as, quote, fair and noble, early come to manhood. He is only 20, which is actually incredibly young for a Dunedan.

[Alan Sisto]

This is very, absolutely. That's like looking at a 14 year old and thinking he's early come to manhood, you know.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. So at this point, Elrond reveals to him his name and lineage and he gives him two out of the three of the family heirlooms. And that's where we picked up the reading.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. And the first one was the Ring of Barahir. And for this, I want to go back to some quotes from the Silmarillion because again, lots of first age tie ins. So, Sara, take us back to. Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin.

[Sara Brown]

Right. So from that chapter of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin, after the Dagor Bragollach, which is the Battle of Sudden Flame, we. But Barahir, the brother of Bregolas, was in the fighting further westward, near to the Pass of Sirion. There, King Finrod Felagund, hastening from the south, was cut off from his people and surrounded with small company in the fen of Serrech. And he would have been slain or taken. But Barahir came up with the bravest of his men and rescued him and made a wall of spears about him. And they cut their way out of the battle with great loss. Thus Felagund escaped and returned to his deep fortress of Nargothrond. But he swore an oath of abiding friendship and aid in every need to Barahir and all his kin. And in token of his vow, he gave to Barahir his ring.

[Alan Sisto]

And that since we have the exact date right, it was right after the Dagor Bragalach. That's first age 455. That's more than 6,500 years ago.

[Sara Brown]

That ring has been around.

[Alan Sisto]

It has been around indeed. And we get a good look at the ring in the very next chapter of Beren and Luthien. Speaking of Beren and Luthien parallels, then Beren answered. Death, you can give me earned or unearned, but the names I will not take from you of baseborn, nor spy, nor thrall, by the ring of Felagund that he gave to Barahir, my father, on the battlefield of the North. My house has not earned such names from any Elf, be he king or no. His words were proud. And all eyes looked upon the ring, for he held it now aloft. And the green jewels gleamed there that the Noldor had devised in Valinor. For this ring was like to twin serpents whose eyes were emeralds and their heads met beneath a crown of golden flowers that the one upheld and the other devoured. That was the badge of Finarfin and his house.

[Sara Brown]

Right. So, wow, that is an ancient ring already. Yeah, when Beren holds it above his head.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. Exactly. Ancient.

[Sara Brown]

Yep. And it's the same ring that Beren would hold above his head as he sought Finrod in Nargothrond.

[Alan Sisto]

That's True. And then through Dior, then Elwing and then Elros, the ring would find its way to Numenor where it became an heirloom of the kings. Until King Tar Elendil gave it not to his son and heir, Tarman Eldur, but to his eldest child, his daughter Silmarian, whose son Valadil, would become the first of the Lords of Andunie.

[Sara Brown]

Which is how, of course, it passes down that wing of the family.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly.

[Sara Brown]

And of course, if we travel all the way through to the end of the tale of Numenor, had that not happened, then that ring would have drowned with the rest of Numenor.

[Alan Sisto]

We believe that's where Dramberleg went. Right. The Axe of Tuor, which would have been in Numenor and was an heirloom of the kings. It did not make it out. Unless it's somehow stuck with Air Farazan in the Caves of the Forgotten. If he took it with him. I doubt that.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, I doubt that. Yeah. Because of course, Elendil was the last of the Lords of Andunie and he escaped the downfall of Numenor with it. And therefore the ring became an heirloom of the kings of Arnor and then, of course, the kings of Arthedain.

[Alan Sisto]

And it has been well traveled because, as Don and I talked about earlier this season, it spent quite some time in the hands of the loss off of Forochel to whom Arved we gave the ring. It was ransomed by the Rangers at some point. We don't know precisely when. And it has since stayed in Rivendell.

[Sara Brown]

I fancy our Vedui giving that ring away.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, well, he was like, this is worth so much more than you could possibly imagine. And you will get a lot for it, you know. Yeah. Arvadui man.

[Sara Brown]

Of course, that's the first of the heirlooms.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes.

[Sara Brown]

The second is the shards of Narsil. And in the Council of Elrond, the Lord of Rivendell speaks of the time when he was the herald of Gil Galad and marched with his host. I was at the Battle of Dagorlad before the Black Gate of Mordor, where we had the mastery for the Spear of Gil Galad and the sword of Elendil. Aeglos and Narsil none could withstand. I beheld the last combat on the slopes of Orodruin, where Gil Galad died and Elendil fell and Narsil broke beneath him. But Sauron himself was overthrown and Isildur cut the ring from his hand with the hilt Shard of his father's sword and took it for his own.

[Alan Sisto]

And later Elrond mentions that it's no surprise that the news of the destiny of the One Ring was lost to Gondor. After all, only three guys survived the disaster of the Gladden Fields. Elrond gives us the details. One of these was Oktar, the Esquire of Isildur who bore the shards of the sword of Elendil and he brought them to Valandil, the heir of Isildur who, being but a child, had remained here in Rivendell. By the way, there's another reminder of what the tradition was that the heirs already at that point were in Rivendell.

[Sara Brown]

Right?

[Alan Sisto]

And then Elrond continues. But Narsil was broken and its light extinguished and it has not yet been forged again. And that's really all we get on the shards of Narsil. There's nothing about when Narsil was originally crafted nothing about how it came to Elendil.

[Sara Brown]

But the one thing that Aragorn does not get is the Scepter of Annuminas because he's got to earn that one. So what do we know about the scepter? There's not much on the scepter itself but there was a note in the part of appendix A about Arnor where we read that it was quote the silver rod of the Lords of Andunie and is now perhaps the most ancient work of Men's hands preserved in Middle Earth. It was already more than 5,000 years old when Elrond surrendered it to Aragorn.

[Alan Sisto]

And yet that's practically brand new compared to the age of the Ring of Barahir.

[Sara Brown]

Right?

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, but yeah, the most ancient work of Men's hands preserved in the world.

[Sara Brown]

Of Men's hands because obviously the Ring of Barahir is made in Valinor which.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, again, going back how far? You know, really, really ancient, but yeah, 5,000 years. So it's the oldest thing that Men have made and Elrond has just. Well, he hasn't surrendered to Aragorn yet. This, this text about it was already more than 5,000 years old when Elrond surrendered to Aragorn. We do read about that. And he does eventually surrender it. He gives it to Aragorn at, at the wedding with Arwen after he's been coronated as king of.

[Sara Brown]

Because that's what you need when you get married is a nice silver scepter to hold.

[Alan Sisto]

I know, I put that on my. I put that on my registry. I'd like the Scepter of A numinous. Yeah, I didn't get it.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, that's just mean.

[Alan Sisto]

I know. People were shopping at Target, they couldn't find the scepter. It just was out of stock, I guess. Anyway, honestly, now it is time for the meet cute young 20 year old Aragorn singing as he walks alone. I mean, this is, you can see this right, with the, the little glowy filter and the music in the background, some sort of pop song. He's singing as he walks alone in the woods of Riverdale, full of hope and I gotta make the joke, does that mean he was full of himself? Sorry, sorry.

[Sara Brown]

Not sorry, sorry, not sorry for that one, no. Yeah, I'm just wondering, you know, what's he singing as he's going through that? I mean, obviously it does say that he was singing part of the. The lay of Luthien.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

You know, wouldn't it be great if he was singing something like Never Gonna Give youe Up by Rick Astley or something?

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, no, no. Did you seriously just. Rick, roll us. I was picturing him singing something like, Then I saw her face.

[Sara Brown]

Now I'm a believer, I join in the singing, but right now I sound even more like a cat being rubbed with a cheese grater. So I think we'll pass. So anyway, young Aragorn singing, full of hope, full of himself, spots a young woman. The text says a maiden. I think we need to interrogate this young woman thing though, because I suspect that she's a bit older than him.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, just a bit. A maiden is a young woman. And that's what he thinks that this is.

[Sara Brown]

And she's walking on the grass in the birchwoods. And at first he thinks he's been pulled into a dream.

[Alan Sisto]

I love that. Because the next thing is that he wonders if he's received the gift of the elf minstrels. What a cool gift that is, by the way. Right. That you can now make your listeners see the things they're singing about. It makes me think of. Of on fairy stories. So go all the way back to Tolkien's essay that he wrote in, I want to say 38 or 39. He writes this. In dreams, strange powers of the mind may be unlocked in some of them. A man may, for a space, wield the power of fairy. That power which, even as it conceives the story, causes it to take living form and color before the eyes. A real dream may indeed sometimes be a fairy story of almost elvish ease and skill while it is being dreamed.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, that is just wonderful, isn't It. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Also that puts me in mind in turn of Smith of Wootton Major, the whole story, you know, all of his visits to fairy, but wow. This idea that you could experience vision and sensory experience as though it were real.

[Sara Brown]

Is this Tolkien dropping acid in the 1930s?

[Alan Sisto]

Well, I hope not, but it hadn't been invented yet, so.

[Sara Brown]

No, no, that is true, but it's wonderful.

[Alan Sisto]

It is this idea of the gift of the elf minstrels being able to sing a song and make it real before the listeners, to think that that's something that elf minstrels could do. And now I'm thinking of Daeron and the things that he would have sung or. Just fantastic idea of making people experience the story in a way beyond just hearing the words and imagining it. Beautiful.

[Sara Brown]

This is absolutely wonderful because, I mean, this is a mini segue, but. One of Tolkien's pupils at Oxford was Susan Cooper, who wrote the Dark Is Rising sequence. Have you read it?

[Alan Sisto]

I have.

[Sara Brown]

Not at all. Oh, I highly recommend. It's absolutely wonderful. And you can see that Cowper has really taken on board some of the things that. That Tolkien loves in the way in which he's put together his secondary world. And one of the things that she does in book two, which is called the Dark Is Rising, is she has the protagonist, a young boy called Will, read the Book of Gramary, in which a sentence says something like, and I flew as an eagle, and then he's experiencing that. He's actually pulled into that.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, glorious.

[Sara Brown]

And it's the most beautifully written, seen. And there's been. I've been doing these books with a wonderful group, that's Ignam. And we've been looking at the resonances with Tolkien's work, and this is one of those things, I think it's. It's so beautiful, this idea that you can draw someone so deeply into the story that you're telling that they feel like they're experiencing it actually inside a song, if you will. I just love that.

[Alan Sisto]

I do, too. And it comes. It just echoes back to the way Tolkien looks at fantasy as not the suspension of disbelief. You know, you believe what you experience. If I'm experiencing something, I believe it to be true because I am able to see it, touch it, feel it, hear it, whatever. That's the thing. This inner consistency of reality is what then enables one to go into the story and then experience it as an actual experience. Fantastic. I love it.

[Sara Brown]

Yep. Lovely.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, now I got another thing to add to my to read list. Thank you.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, no, you're Most welcome. You will thank me because they are fantastic. Okay, so why does Aragorn think that this gift might have come his way? Because he'd been singing. Not never gonna give you up.

[Alan Sisto]

No.

[Sara Brown]

The Lay of Luthien about when Beren met Luthien in Nelderith, and because the maiden looks like Luthien, wearing silver and blue, fair as the twilight, brows bound with gems. So it's no wonder.

[Alan Sisto]

No, of course. By the way, quick note. I thought this was a typo. I actually did the lay of Luthien. I thought it was a typo for Lay of Lathean because I'd been reading the Lay of Lathian on. On First Stage Fridays for today's Tolkien Times. And so my brain immediately said lay of Lathe and. Wait a minute. This is a typo. Hammond and Skull and their readers. Companions say, I'm not alone in thinking that, but I'm wrong in thinking that. And they actually write. But Christopher Tolkien has said in private correspondence, and I just add how jealous I am in private correspondence, in letters that we have exchanged with Christopher Tolkien. That's what does in private correspondence. That the published reading is correct and that his father often referred to the poem as Luthien.

[Sara Brown]

Right. Yeah. Because actually, laythean is nothing to do with the word luthien at all. Even though it's got sort of a similar sound.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. It means released from bondage and has nothing to do with luthien, which is nightingale. No. Tinuviel is nightingale. Luthien. I'm gonna have to bust out my word nerdery at some other point. But.

[Sara Brown]

So he sees her, and at first he's just frozen in place. He's staring in silence.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

But he's afraid that he might never see her again. So he calls to her butt. He calls Tinuviel, which, as you've just said, means nightingale. And it's the name by which Beren called Luthien all those goodness knows how many mumble, mumble years ago.

[Alan Sisto]

Mumble, mumble. It actually, it's. I know I said it means nightingale, and it does, but it's a poetic way of saying nightingale. The literal meaning of Tinuviel is daughter of twilight and luthien, by the way. I know I said I had to bust out my word nerdery. I did. Real briefly. Luthien is Sindarin, meaning daughter of flowers. That's what it means. So, yeah. Fantastic stuff, man. I love this, though. Just great. The idea that I'm speechless. I'm stunned. I can't speak. But I may never see her again. So I got to say something.

[Sara Brown]

I've got to say something. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And then. So why, what is it in an Aragorn's little 20 year old teenage boy, barely not quite teenage boy brain that makes him say tinuvial? And it's, it's the fact that he. That's exactly who he's thinking she is like, am I walking in Baron's dream? Am I in Neldoreth? Because that's what I was singing. Am I experiencing this gift of the elf minstrels? And yeah, that explains it.

[Sara Brown]

And Aragorn is definitely a romantic, isn't he?

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, he is, yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

[Sara Brown]

You can just imagine some teenage boy downtown yelling, oi you. He doesn't do that.

[Alan Sisto]

I don't think Arwen would have taken so kindly to Oi you.

[Sara Brown]

Not so much. But Alan, how does she respond? Do you want to tell us?

[Alan Sisto]

I like that good segue. Then the maiden turned to him and smiled. And she said, who are you and why do you call me by that name? And he answered, because I believed you to be indeed Luthien Tinuviel, of whom I was singing. But if you are not she, then you walk in her likeness. So many have said, she answered gravely, yet her name is not mine. Though maybe my doom will be not unlike hers. But who are you? Estelle, I was called, he said, but I am Aragorn. Arathorn's son, Isildur's heir, Lord of the Dunedain. Yet even in the saying he felt that this high lineage in which his heart had rejoiced was now of little worth and as nothing compared to her dignity and loveliness. But she laughed merrily and said, then we are akin from afar, for I am Arwen, Elrond's daughter, and am named also Undomiel. Often is it seen, said Aragorn, that in dangerous days men hide their chief treasure. Yet I marvel at Elrond and your brothers. For though I have dwelt in this house from childhood I have heard no word of you. How comes it that we have never met before? Surely your father has not kept you locked in his hoard. No, she said, and looked up at the mountains that rose in the east. I have dwelt for a time in the land of my mother's kin in far Lothlorien. I have but lately returned to visit my father again. It is many years since I walked in Imladris. Then Aragorn wondered, for she had seemed of no greater age than he who had lived yet no more than a score of years in Middle Earth. But Arwen looked in his eyes and said, do not wonder, for the children of Elrond have the life of the Eldar. Then Aragorn was abashed. For he saw the elven light in her eyes and the wisdom of many days. Yet from that hour he loved Arwen Undomiel, daughter of Elrond.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, that is a meat.

[Alan Sisto]

Cute and a half, isn't it? That's great stuff right there. Yeah, it really is. He knows we'll get to it, but he knows what to say, when to say it. He's very good.

[Sara Brown]

Yes. Not bad for a youngling, I know.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

So Arwen's response to Aragorn calling her Tinuviel is straight to the point. Who are you and why are you calling me Denuviel? Which I think is a perfectly reasonable question.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a valid question. Like, yeah, why are you calling me that thousands of years ago? You know, it can't be me.

[Sara Brown]

But Aragorn explains because that whole gift of the elf minstrels thing goes unspoken because that probably would make him sound like a nerd. But he doesn't miss the opportunity to compliment this maiden. You walk in her likeness. Oh, well done, Aragorn.

[Alan Sisto]

I know. Like, excellent recovery. Like, why do you call me that? Which is basically, that's not my name. Right? And we'll get that. But you know, you'd think stammer, stammer, stammer. But he's like, oh, well, you sure, you know, you walk in her likeness. Not even you look like her. Right. This is, it's really artfully phrased. You walk in her likeness. Now, I just have to ask this. What do you make of this next bit? She responds with seriousness, right? Grave. She, she spoke gravely. She'd smiled earlier. Later she said to. To laugh before she responds. I sort of love this range of emotion that we get from her. I want you to talk about that. But then I really want to dive into this idea. She's been told she looks like Luthien before. But then she adds something. Is this foresight? Is this rolling the dice? What is she doing here? When she says maybe my doom will be not unlike hers. Like, wait a minute. Like, play your cards right, pal. I mean, I don't know what she's doing here. Maybe my doom will. What.

[Sara Brown]

So much wrapped up in that, isn't there? Falling in love with a mortal man and then giving up the life of the Eldar and becoming mortal and dying Immortal. All those things wrapped up. So there's a lot of ways in which I was looking at this, and one of them is this response. She acknowledges that she's been told she looks like Luthien.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

She's probably been told this all her.

[Alan Sisto]

Life, which is already thousands of years.

[Sara Brown]

Yes, exactly. So if you've been told this, then clearly the whole Luthien story is going to be kind of at the forefront of your brain. Oh, you look so like Luthien, you know, and look what happened to Luthien. And, you know, I doubt that this. She's still a young elf, but if you compare it to the age of Aragorn, she's considerably older.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, yeah, she was born in third age, 241. So she's. She's not quite 2800.

[Sara Brown]

Right. A mere stripling.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Whereas Aragorn was born yesterday for her.

[Alan Sisto]

Literally. Yeah. Fell out of the back of a turnip truck.

[Sara Brown]

I don't get the sense that she immediately falls in love with him. I mean, she's far too old and wise for that to happen. Whereas Aragorn is like a. A teenager, frankly, and he's head over heels instantly. I think that really, it's not about Aragorn. It's about being told about the resemblance to Luthien.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

And wondering, well, why do I look like Luthien so much? Why is this resemblance here? Is this important?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Is this going to shape my life? Yeah. I think you're right. If for no other reason than we later on will explicitly get that moment where she does fall in love with him and choose in her doom is. Is chosen at that point for her. And because that was so clear and so direct here, I think you're absolutely on the nose. This is more her contemplating the fate of Luthien and whether she will. Whether her resemblance to Luthien will also be more than just a mere physical resemblance.

[Sara Brown]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

And we'll play into some sort of similar history. I think you're right. What about that? I really like this because we don't get much of her. Right. We get almost none of her in the narrative, and we don't even get a ton of her here, but we get enough. I love this sort of emotional range that we see turning with a smile and then later responding gravely and then still later smiling and laughing. What do you make of that?

[Sara Brown]

She's still a young and joyous elf.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay.

[Sara Brown]

You know.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I like that.

[Sara Brown]

I mean, that doesn't mean that she hasn't been through some stuff oh, yeah, her mom.

[Alan Sisto]

The loss of her mom.

[Sara Brown]

Right, exactly. But the world is still young for her and, and it's beautiful. And, you know, she's beautiful and, you know, I think there is, there's still a sense here in which Arwen is still joyous and so, you know, laughing at this pretty little young man who's just turned up. Why not?

[Alan Sisto]

That's fair. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

I don't know. What do you reckon?

[Alan Sisto]

I think you're right. She is still a young. I think it's also Tolkien trying to give us a little bit more three dimensionality to a character that he's not going to flesh out. You know, giving us this range and showing that she's engaging with him in a way that's very real, you know, very open. She's not hiding the gravity of what she says when she speaks gravely. She's not hiding her smile or her laughter. She's just very, very open with who she is and how she's responding to these things.

[Sara Brown]

I think you're right about the fact that Tolkien doesn't have a whole lot of space in which to give us Arwen, if you like.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sara Brown]

But he's got to give us enough to explain why Aragorn falls in love with her.

[Alan Sisto]

Because more than just a physical beauty.

[Sara Brown]

Right, Exactly. That's exactly the point. Because I give Aragorn enough credit to think, well, you know, it's one thing to fall for a pretty face, but there has to be something beyond the pretty face for him, right?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, there has to be.

[Sara Brown]

There has to be something that attracts him to her, beyond. She's stunningly beautiful because the pretty is, is very nice. But, you know, you got to live with that, haven't you? So is there something underneath that that's actually going to keep you staying there?

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. And, and I think we start to see that already in her openness and her questions. And she has a question for him next, doesn't she?

[Sara Brown]

Yes, indeed. She asks who he is and Aragorn, who is, you know, all cocky, I'm the son of Aragorn and I'm tripping through the woods and la la la, feeling on top of the world. And then he's brought crashing down. He feels suddenly quite humble.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Yes, he does. I'm Aragorn, son of Arathorn, heir of Isildur, Lord of the. Yeah, that doesn't sound so impressive now that I say it out loud.

[Sara Brown]

Well, not in comparison to what she's just said, exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, it is impressive though, right?

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. It is.

[Alan Sisto]

That's the thing. He's arguably the greatest of men alive. Not. I mean, he hasn't achieved a lot yet, but in terms of his heritage, in terms of his lineage, because we know that the line of Anarion has died out of the south. So they've been under the stewards now for a thousand years. He's the last of the true Numenoreans.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. But again, I'm giving Aragorn a bit of credit here because I think that having the title and the lineage is one thing, and it's not bad. But at 20 years old, he really hasn't achieved anything.

[Alan Sisto]

You're right. Yeah. He hasn't demonstrated his own sort of the characteristics that would earn him that nobility.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, you got to earn respect, haven't you? You've got to earn that title. You've got to earn the scepter of a Numenatur.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, you do. And you're gonna have to be king of Gondor and Arnor if you're gonna earn her hand. But we'll get to that.

[Sara Brown]

We'll get to that. Yes. So she gives her name, but not before laughing and saying they're distant cousins. Well, they're actually first cousins, but they are many, many, many, many. 60 plus times removed.

[Alan Sisto]

60 plus? Yeah. I mean, come on. They're not really related. Folks, let's not.

[Sara Brown]

Let's not get too.

[Alan Sisto]

Let's not read too much on that one.

[Sara Brown]

Yes, exactly. This is not actually a marriage of two first cousins in the way that we might consider it in the primary world, which. Ick.

[Alan Sisto]

So we get who she is. Arwen, daughter of Elrond, named Undomiel. And we've talked about these before, but just a little word, Nerdery. Arwen is Sindarin, for noble maiden. Ara. Noble. It's the same prefix that we get in Aragorn's name. And then Gwen is the suffix maiden. And we see that also in the name of Morris Morwen. Undomiel means even star, and it's from Undome, which means evening, twilight and El, meaning star, like in Elrond. Right. Interestingly, in Farewell to Lorien, Frodo observes Aragorn at the foot of Charon Amroth. He's, quote, wrapped in some fair memory, Right. He's got this moment where he's talking to Arwen, even though she's not there. And he says, arwen, vani, melda, Namaria. Which is Quenya, which suggests that her name in Quenya is a valid calc. Right. A lone translation in Quenya.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, that's fascinating. And I was just thinking while you were word nerding, because Sindarin, of course, is so close to Welsh. The suffix wen in Welsh means something diminutive, something small, something little.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, which certainly would fit maiden.

[Sara Brown]

Yes, exactly. Which I thought was quite interesting. I have a cousin called Kynewen, and that means little swan.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, cute. What a wonderful name. I like that. Well, of course, we know that that Welsh was an inspiration for Sinder and just as Finnish was an inspiration for Quenya, so, you know, wouldn't surprise me in the least to find that a few words kind of kept similar meanings.

[Sara Brown]

Right. The idea of the diminutive little going with maiden, that sort of works, doesn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

It does, it does. I like that.

[Sara Brown]

So at this point, Aragorn asks the obvious. I've lived here for ages, and by that I mean 18 years at the ripe age of 20, and I've never seen you.

[Alan Sisto]

And while that part I might buy, the fact that he's never heard about her, I admit, does seem a little weird. I mean, Elrond, Eladon and Elro here have never even mentioned her even. Not even by name. But just like Elrond's never talked about my daughter, the. The boys have never said my sister, ever.

[Sara Brown]

And she seems to have been gone a chunk of time.

[Alan Sisto]

A big chunk of time.

[Sara Brown]

I mean, maybe it's, you know, a quick weekend away for an Elf, but It's more than 20 years, isn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

That is kind of wild. Like, we don't talk about our wind. No, no. You know, I just don't understand, like, why is she seriously not mentioned? Is there. Is there some sort of prohibition? We're not going to tell Aragorn his name because we don't want him to know his name. We also don't want him to know that I have a daughter, because if he finds out that I have a daughter who's really, really pretty, who looks a lot like the last Elf to marry a mortal.

[Sara Brown]

Yes. You can't be having that. The first rule of Arwen is we do not talk about Arwen.

[Alan Sisto]

I like that. I like that. I think that might actually be the idea. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

So she tells him, I've been in Lothalorian for a long weekend away. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

A few hundred years, maybe.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. Where my maternal grandparents are. Now, you've got to remember, of course, that Calabrian is the daughter of Celeborn and Galadriel. So she's been off to see Nonna and Pop hasn't she.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, exactly.

[Sara Brown]

In Wales, we would call it nine and tide.

[Alan Sisto]

Ah, okay.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. So she's, you know, she's been off. But this is the fact that it takes Aragorn by some surprise. It's really weird. He's close to Eladan and Elrohir. He's known Elrond literally his entire life. And he seems a little shocked by the fact that she isn't his age. By a little.

[Alan Sisto]

That's weird. By a little. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

I mean, there's a little over two millennia, and then there's Arwen.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, Arwen explains that she and her brothers have the life of the Eldar now. She doesn't mention it here. She also has the same choice of Elrond and Elros as do her brothers. I don't know that we're going to end up having time to get into that one today. I feel like that's a question we'll talk about maybe at the end next week when Arwen has to make the choice that she makes. But I want everybody to sort of remember that, like she has a choice. And Elrond's going to talk about that in either our next reading or the one after that. But the brothers do, too. And that's one of those other mysteries of Tolkien that nobody knows the real answer to.

[Sara Brown]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

What do Eladon and Elrohir choose?

[Sara Brown]

Put a pin in that, huh?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, we'll come back to that for sure.

[Sara Brown]

So Aragorn at this point is embarrassed.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. I mean, he doesn't just see her beauty. He specifically sees the Elven light and the wisdom of many days.

[Alan Sisto]

Many, many, many, many days. Yeah. Yes, whatever. You know, 2,800 years worth of days is.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, that's a lot.

[Alan Sisto]

That is a lot. And that seals the deal. Right? That's when we find out from that day on, he loved Arwen. And that that love is going to lead to a lot of hard conversations, one of which comes up next. Sara, take us away.

[Sara Brown]

In the days that followed, Aragorn fell silent. And his mother perceived that some strange thing had befallen him. Him. And at last he yielded to her questions and told her of the meeting. In the twilight of the trees, my son, said Gilraen, your aim is high even for the descendant of many kings. For this lady is the noblest and fairest that now walks the earth. And it is not fit that mortal should wed with the Elf kin. Yet we have some part in that kinship, said Aragorn. If the tale of my forefathers is true, that I have learned, it is true, said Gilrain, but that was long ago and in another age of this world, before our race was diminished. Therefore I am afraid. For without the good will of Master Elrond, the heirs of Isildur will soon come to an end. But I do not think that you will have the good will of Elrond in this matter. Then bitter will my days be, and I will walk in the wild alone, said Aragorn. That will indeed be your fate, said Gilrein. But though she had, in a measure, the foresight of her people, she said no more to him of her foreboding, nor did she speak to anyone of what her son had told her. But Elrond saw many things and read many hearts. One day, therefore, before the fall of the year, he called Aragorn to his chamber and he said, aragorn, Arathorn's son, Lord of the Dunedain, listen to me. A great doom awaits you. Either to rise above the height of all your fathers since the days of Elendil, or to fall into darkness with all that is left of your kin. Many years of trial lie before you. You shall neither have wife, nor bind any woman to you in troth till your time comes and you are found worthy of it. Then Aragorn was troubled, and he said, can it be that my mother has spoken of this?

[Alan Sisto]

Did my mom throw me under the bus? I mean, come on, Mom. I said this in confidence. You weren't supposed to say anything. Anyway, going back to the beginning of that passage, like any young man who still has to deal with his mother, she starts pestering him, badgering him with questions, and at last, he yielded. It's like, enough, Mom. Fine.

[Sara Brown]

I just see this teenage boy stomping off to his bedroom. Mom, honestly don't want to talk about it.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, you hardly eat your dinner. You're in your room all the time, moping around, you never smile anymore. What is wrong with you?

[Sara Brown]

Nothing wrong with me. Leave me alone. Yeah, communicating in grunts.

[Alan Sisto]

My son's about to turn 13. I better get used to that.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, boy. Yeah, you have to actually get a whole new dictionary, a whole new lexicon, because you have to start interpreting monosyllabic grunting.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that's fair. How was your day? Yeah, yeah, okay.

[Sara Brown]

Anything could happen at school. See, there's a different tone you can interpret.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that's a fair point. I have to figure that out. I appreciate the tip.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, I've been through it all right. So, seriously, Gil Rhine gives him some strong words that he needed to Hear, you might be the Heir of Isildur, but you're still aiming a little bit high because Arwen is quite literally the noblest and fairest on the entire planet.

[Alan Sisto]

Like, you literally couldn't have aimed higher, right?

[Sara Brown]

You're punching a bit above your weight, son.

[Alan Sisto]

Way, way above your weight. And by the way, there's a whole elf man thing. Gilroy says it's not fit. Right. It's not appropriate, not proper for a mortal to marry an Elf. Now, we who have the advantage as readers of history and all of Tolkien's words on this, understand that the marriage of Aragorn and Arwen is actually more than just fit. It's literally the culmination of history.

[Sara Brown]

Right. But, yeah, yeah, yeah, but you can understand where she's coming from. I mean, put yourself in Gil Ryan's shoes for a moment. There have only been two historic marriages between Elf and man. Tuor and Idril and Beren and Luthien. So why might she be a bit concerned?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I mean, it's. It's a rare, rare thing. And, yeah, I just. I mean, I can understand where she's coming from.

[Sara Brown]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

You are aiming way too high. Even though she would, I'm sure, remember what her mother said about hope can be born for our people and all of this stuff. Like, did. I wonder if that resonated with her at all? Like, is his potential relationship with Arwen part of hope? Because of course it is. We know that.

[Sara Brown]

We know that. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

She would not have known that.

[Sara Brown]

No, no, she's. She's still at the holy moly. What are you thinking, boy? Stage.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. You are way out of your league. You're, like, completely out of your league.

[Sara Brown]

Right. Because one of the reasons why she will have heard the stories of Ben and Lutheran and Tour and Idril is.

[Alan Sisto]

Because they are monumentally important historically. Like sick. Not just significant, but linchpins, you know, especially well, really, both of them. I mean, they are both critical.

[Sara Brown]

Yes, they are.

[Alan Sisto]

I was going to say especially one or the other, but no, they're both absolutely crucial to all of history. And I mean, yes, there's also the likely marriage of Imrazor and Mithrelis. But A, it's quite possible that Gilrain doesn't know about them because they're not necessarily historically significant to the Dunedain. And B, we may be thinking only of the High Elves, like Tolkien himself talked about, because he. He was once asked about that as well, and his implication was, look, there might have been some other ones, but there were only these three. With the High Elves talking with Aragorn and harmonious.

[Sara Brown]

And besides, the story of Imrazor and Mithrelas is dodgy. Yeah. This is not exactly the romance of the age. This is another one of those she was not entirely willing cringe moments.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. And then the entirely like, I'm just gonna leave now and abandon you and my kid and I'm out. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Yep. Indeed. Aragorn is correct that their line has something to do with this kinship. Right. Tuon Idril's son was Earendil, who married Elwing, granddaughter of Beren and Luthien. Their sons were Elrond and Elros, the former being Arwen's daddy and the latter being a 60 plus generation ancestor of Aragorn. Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. So they're deeply tied to both of those marriages. But it's not likely that that history is going to repeat itself as Gil Rhin points out, because our race has been diminished. And as great as Aragorn is, he's neither Beren nor Tuor is essentially what she's saying. But is he. I mean, he's not yet.

[Sara Brown]

Simply not yet. No. He's only 20 and he's not done anything yet.

[Alan Sisto]

He hasn't done anything yet. But he's going to be pretty darn mighty and belongs in that conversation with Beren and Tuor by the end of his life.

[Sara Brown]

By the end of his life. But certainly not at this point.

[Alan Sisto]

No.

[Sara Brown]

No. So again, you can see where she's coming from because actually I think that's terrifying for a mother because she knows that Aragorn is, has a high destiny.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes.

[Sara Brown]

But to achieve what he's going to achieve, he is going to be in some danger, you know, and for him to suddenly be put on the same level of pedestal as Baron, Baron or Tuor, I mean, look what those two went through.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah. And she doesn't want her son to go through either of their lives.

[Sara Brown]

So there's probably a part of her thinking, I don't want this.

[Alan Sisto]

No, for my boy. If he's going to achieve, you know, lifting the Dunedain out of the shadows. I know that was the manuscript version, but still, if he's going to be hope for their people, he's got to be singularly minded, focused on that, not on how do I win the heart and hand of the most beautiful, wise, fair, amazing woman on the face of the planet.

[Sara Brown]

And in fact, as we'll get to in a little bit, Elrond pretty much agrees with her.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. It is a problem about him. Being in love with her from, you know, you talked about. From the mother's perspective, from Gilron's perspective, it's a problem because if he doesn't marry, he's not going to produce an heir. And if he doesn't produce an heir, the line of the heirs of Isildur will end with him just as the line of Anarion ended with Earnur a thousand years ago.

[Sara Brown]

Right. So no pressure, but yes.

[Alan Sisto]

None.

[Sara Brown]

There is an expectation here.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm glad you're in love. Can you pick somebody else?

[Sara Brown]

Right, yeah. Yeah. And she also quite reasonably doubts that Elrond will allow this. I mean.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, she's got reasons.

[Sara Brown]

The ramifications of this would be quite.

[Alan Sisto]

Huge, as we'll see.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, indeed. And this leads Aragorn. And it's interesting because the previous bit we were reading, he's all skippity doo dah through the forest. Life is lovely. But now he's looking with bitterness towards his future.

[Alan Sisto]

Of course. Yeah. Again, very teenagery.

[Sara Brown]

Very. Yes. You know, swinging from one emotion to the other in the space of a heartbeat.

[Alan Sisto]

Right, exactly. But, yeah, Gil Rhine, showing that same foresight that we saw in both of her parents, agrees. Yep. Walking in the wild alone. Because he's like, basically, if I can't ever, I'm just gonna go walk in the wild alone. Yep. That's pretty much what you're gonna be doing, son. That is your life. But she didn't give him any more detail. And importantly, despite what we get at the end of the reading, she did not betray his confidence about this love.

[Sara Brown]

Right. But, you know, if Mum can tell something's wrong.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Right, then. A really wise and insightful Elven lord who's been pretty much Aragorn's father for 18 years, it's no surprise. He can.

[Alan Sisto]

Of course. It's obvious. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. And though he doesn't actually name Arwen yet, he makes it clear there is a great doom, a great fate on Aragorn and a great love affair is not in the picture right now.

[Alan Sisto]

No, no, it's not. I mean, what you've got to do, Aragorn. And there's no pressure either you're going to become greater than any of your fathers, going all the way back to Elendil himself. Or you're going to wipe out the line of kings and fall into complete and total darkness.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. Nothing in between there at all.

[Alan Sisto]

No.

[Sara Brown]

No. Nice Happy middle ground.

[Alan Sisto]

It makes me think of Galadriel's line in the film and I can't remember now if this is Also a book line where she talks about the quest is on the edge of a knife. And that's what it is. You've got these two sides, there's nothing in the middle. There's. You're either this or you're this. There's no other option.

[Sara Brown]

Right. And you know, because of this doom that is in front of you, you're going to go through years of trial and as a result, you are not going to get married. Absolutely not. You're not even going to plight your truth, Elrond says, until you are found worthy of it. So now he's got to be worthy of a scepter and he's also got to be worthy of some girl of. So yeah, that's a lot.

[Alan Sisto]

Presumably being worthy of the scepter would make one also worthy of marriage. But worthy of the scepter is a long project that's not going to happen next week.

[Sara Brown]

No.

[Alan Sisto]

Now I do like that at the end Aragorn is said then Aragorn was troubled. I think that's an understatement. Yes.

[Sara Brown]

I think he's quite lumpy here.

[Alan Sisto]

I think he's probably thinking, did my mom snitch on me? I am. This is not how I wanted this conversation to come up. I'm really uncomfortable. Can I just walk away? I mean, I'm feeling for this guy right now because he's got to think my mom just told Elrond and I am in so much trouble.

[Sara Brown]

Oh no. The dad of my crush knows that's bad news.

[Alan Sisto]

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[Sara Brown]

Sixteen years from today, Greg Gerstner will finally land the perfect cannonball. Epic splash. Unsuspecting friends. A work of art. Only possible because Greg is already meeting all these same people at AARP volunteer and community events that keep him active.

[Alan Sisto]

And involved and help make sure his.

[Sara Brown]

Happiness lives as long as he does. That's why the younger you are, the more you need AARP. Learn more at aarp.org Local.

[Alan Sisto]

Folks, if you're enjoying the PPP, please consider supporting the show by joining the Fellowship of the podcast. It's what gives me the time and resources to work on making this show the best that it can be. And when you join, you become part of an amazing discord community. It includes live episode recordings, one of them's going on right now, and hangouts every month. You also get episode post scripts, ad free episodes, free merch and more.

[Sara Brown]

And you can also become part of our Questions After Nightfall episodes or even join us as a guest in the North Wing. So Please go to patreon.com prancingponypod to show your support and join the Fellowship of the podcast.

[Alan Sisto]

And you can always help us out by giving us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts and a rating on Spotify. And please recommend us to your friends.

[Sara Brown]

Right, so we've got grumpy, stompy teenage Aragorn, who's completely embarrassed that his crush's dad now knows that he's got a crush. Where do we go from here, though?

[Alan Sisto]

Well, Elrond has some words, and that's where I'll pick up. No, indeed, said Elrond. Your own eyes have betrayed you. But I do not speak of my daughter alone. You shall be betrothed to no man's child as yet. But as for Arwen, the fair lady of Imladris and of Lorien, even star of her people, she is of lineage greater than yours, and she has lived in the world already so long that to her you are but as a yearling shoot beside a young birch of many summers. She is too far above you, and so I think it may well seem to her. But even if it were not so, and her heart turned towards you, I should still be grieved because of the doom that is laid on us. What is that doom? Said Aragorn, that so long as I abide here, she shall live with the youth of the Eldar, answered Elrond. And when I depart, she shall go with me, if she so chooses. I see, said Aragorn, that I have turned my eyes to a treasure no less dear than the treasure of Thingol that Beren once desired. Such is my fate. Then suddenly the foresight of his kindred came to him, and he but lo, Master Elrond, the years of your abiding run short at last, and the choice must soon be laid on your children to part either with you or with Middle Earth. Truly, said Elrond, soon as we account it, though, many years of men must still pass. But there will be no choice before Arwen, my beloved, unless you, Aragorn, Arathorn's son, come between us and bring one of us, you or me. To a bitter parting beyond the end of the world. You do not know yet what you desire of me. Oh, and he doesn't?

[Sara Brown]

No.

[Alan Sisto]

Elrond's right. 100%.

[Sara Brown]

Not at this point. Also, Elrond your says your mum did not need to snitch. I can see your eyeballs staring at my daughter. Daughter?

[Alan Sisto]

It's a dad thing. Seriously? Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. You've got a daughter, haven't you?

[Alan Sisto]

I do.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, boy. Good luck. But his point isn't about Arwen specifically, though we will get there. Is that he isn't going to be committed to anyone right now because of what he needs to do first. The years of trial that we mentioned in the last section. Aragorn, you got to stay focused.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. You've got a lot to do. And you need to be entirely committed and dedicated to that task in order to accomplish it. Yeah. That said, by the way, Arwen is seriously out of your league. I mean, she's the lady of Imladris and of Lorien. Also, you thought your mom and dad were a May December romance at 56 and 22. This is like January 2 and December 30 here. She's way far above you.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. He doesn't pull any punches, does he?

[Alan Sisto]

No, he does not.

[Sara Brown]

He says he does not soften the ball. Far above you.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. And I think she'll think the same thing.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

So brutal.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. Oh, that really is rough.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Now, while he doesn't claim to speak for Arwen, he does think she might share a similar view. But then we get to the heart of this part of the conversation. Even if she did love you, what about me?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

He says Elrond would suffer grief because of our doom. That is our fate.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. And Aragorn asks the question we're all asking and we get the answer that as long as Elrond is here, Arwen gets to live with that famous Elven serial, Longevity.

[Sara Brown]

Right. But of course, if Elrond goes without her, then the implication is, yeah, she can even sail west with me when I leave. Elrond explains, and it leaves unsaid, the possibility that she would stay behind and become mortal with all of the consequences of that.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. I love how he doesn't even say that. Right. But he just makes it clear she can sail with me when I leave if she so chooses. So that is enough to tell. Aragorn, who's pretty smart, knows the history. He picks up on that unspoken bit. He goes directly to the Luthien story. And I will add Though one thing as. As much as we say that Arwen is out of his league and she is just as Luthien was out of Beren's league. Can we just say that Elrond, to his credit, is a lot nicer to Aragorn than Thingol was to Beren.

[Sara Brown]

Can I just add that that's a very low bar?

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, that is a low bar. You're right. Thingol was a jerk. He was.

[Sara Brown]

He was a total butthead.

[Alan Sisto]

He was scheming. He's like, man, I can't believe I promised my daughter I wouldn't hurt this guy. I want to rip him shreds, but I can't because I gave my word.

[Sara Brown]

But how can I make sure he dies a nasty death?

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. I know you got to go get a silmaril. Since you said, you know, the fires of Morgoth won't keep you from. Yeah, let's test that theory.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

No. Thingol. Jerk. Bad Elrond, good dad.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. Yep. Now, after this observation, though, Aragorn gets a burst of insight, and I can't help wondering if it would have been better if he just left this unsaid.

[Alan Sisto]

No. He gets some foresight, but he doesn't get the wisdom to be like, you know, maybe I should keep that to myself.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. Yeah. Because he tells Elrond, who's been here for a very long time, that his time is running short. Your kids are gonna have to choose very soon to either leave Middle Earth with you or be bartered from you. Is this a wise thing to say?

[Alan Sisto]

I'm not so sure, woman you're in love with. I know. Or is this just Aragorn being Aragorn? When he gets these moments of foresight, he tends not to have a lot of filter. He just says what he needs to say. So teenage boy it is. But it's kind of like, is he rising to the challenge here? Because, like we said, Elrond's not pulling any punches. So maybe Aragorn's like, I'm not going to pull any punches either, you know, Your time has come to an end. That's a tough one. I. Yeah, it's. It's a gamble to go this direction, but I love it because we'll see later that it doesn't ruin their relationship or anything, you know, and I really will get to that. But I really admire Elrond in particular for that. Now, it's not like Elrond doesn't know that time is running short. I mean, the tale of years tells us that it's 2952 when they're having this chat. So just last year, Sauron has sent three Nazgul to reoccupy Dol Guldur after Elrond and the White Council drove Sauron out 10 years before that. So it's only been 11 years since they drove Sauron out of Dol Guldur. The ring was also found by Bilbo that same year. Next year is the last meeting of the White Council. So clearly Elrond pays attention. He knows that time is ticking.

[Sara Brown]

Right, because it's obvious to anyone with the kind of wisdom and knowledge and understanding that Elrond has that something is going to happen. And it's going to happen in Elven terms very soon.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Yeah. Relatively soon indeed. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. But he reminds Aragorn that there won't be a choice for her to make unless you, the young man I raised as my son, come between us. This is a slight threat.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, it does feel a little bit like that. Like, you know, she was going to come with me. Like, it was never even a question. Of course. Of course she's coming with me. You're the only person who could change that. You, you person.

[Sara Brown]

Whipper snapper.

[Alan Sisto]

Don't change that. Yeah, exactly.

[Sara Brown]

And if you do that, either you or I will have a very bitter parting ahead of us.

[Alan Sisto]

It kind of. It goes back to me. It's another one of those. These are the two. This is the binary set of outcomes. There. There is nothing in between. Just like you are either going to rise to be higher than any of your fathers since Elendil or you're going to bring the entire line of the Dunedain to an end and you're going to fall into darkness that nobody's ever going to come out of here. Either I am going to have a very, very bitter parting or you are going to have a very, very bitter. We cannot both be happy here.

[Sara Brown]

I bet this is the toughest conversation these two have really ever had.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. I can't even imagine what it's like for Elrond to realize after, you know, nearly three millennia with his daughter that I might not get to spend eternity with her.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. How did that happen?

[Alan Sisto]

She's supposed to come with me and her brothers to go meet up with mom again. Because, you know, Ketilibrian's been out there for, you know, a couple hundred years now. This is rough. This is really rough. And I love how this passage ends. You do not know yet what you desire of me. I don't think Elrond is saying that as a criticism. I really don't. I feel like he's saying it like you really don't. Aragorn. I mean, this isn't. I don't blame you for not knowing. You know, you're mortal. You're also not a parent. I am both a parent and a surly Longeval Elf. You can't possibly know what you're asking. The consequences of what you're asking. What do you think?

[Sara Brown]

No, I think that's absolutely right. Because if you dig into the law, then, you know, because this goes right back to the very beginning with the proclamations of Manway and things like that. That if an Elf dies while in Middle Earth, that their spirit.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Is sent to halls of Mandos. And then, of course, it is put into a new body and has all the memories and the feelings and the thoughts of the original fear.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[Sara Brown]

And so they. They have this serial longevity, as we keep saying. It's not immortality, it's serial longevity. Because they can die. They absolutely can die and do die, but they come back. But if Arwen stays in Middle Earth and dies a mortal death, Elrond absolutely, truly never will see his daughter again.

[Alan Sisto]

Which is so alien to Elves.

[Sara Brown]

Yes. This is not a thing. Right. This is not a thing that happens. Well, it's not a thing that's happened very often, is it?

[Alan Sisto]

No, it's happened with Luthien and that's it. Because even Israel, even Idril, that didn't happen. Right. I mean, we're said that Tuor was possibly counted among the elves, but. Yeah, only Luthien of her people has truly died.

[Sara Brown]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

For Elrond to have to think that Arwen will be faced with that decision is not something he wants to consider. He goes, I don't think you quite understand. I mean, yes. You know, she's beautiful. Yes. You know, she's like Luthien. Yes. You know the story of Baron and Luthien. But you cannot place yourself in my shoes and understand what it would be like as an immortal creature. Essentially, an immortal creature to lose contact with my daughter forever for literally ever. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Unbelievable.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

That's just huge. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

It's something, as you say, that is so alien to elves because this is not how they are at all.

[Alan Sisto]

No.

[Sara Brown]

Whereas for the mortal races, they have an understanding of mortality because this is what is baked into them, if you like.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah. They might be afraid of it, they might not be. You know, they might not know what there is, but they know that this is going to happen.

[Sara Brown]

Right. So even a young man like Aragorn, you know, especially one who's already lost dad and Granddad. Yeah, he knows about mortality. It's a part of life for Elves. This is not a thing.

[Alan Sisto]

No, no, it really isn't. I mean, I'm thinking back to Firiel. Right. Or, I'm sorry, to Miriel Feriel. She was Miriel originally and then called Feriel, which is she who sighed. That would be Feanor's mother. And when she chose not to be re embodied and the chaos that that caused and the uproar and the fact that the Valar had to come up with a whole new rule to allow Fenway to remarry. And it's just. Yeah. The idea of somebody dying and not coming back or in this case, dying as a mortal so they would not be able to come back is just.

[Sara Brown]

It's beyond their understanding, really, isn't it? Yeah. And again, you go back to the Athrobath to see, you know, Finrod's not 100% level of understanding of the. The mortal position, if you like. Same as those who are mortal do not have a 100% understanding of the position of the Elves.

[Alan Sisto]

Right. How can they?

[Sara Brown]

No, absolutely not.

[Alan Sisto]

You can only know what you experience and neither side can genuinely experience what the other does.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, right. Yeah. So we had to skip something. So we skipped the last line about Elrond sighing and looking at Aragorn gravely by. Before putting this on the shelf, he says, we will speak no more of this until many years have passed. Put a pin in that.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. We'll come back to that. And if you thought Aragorn had some foresight, here's Elrond to remind you of his own. The days darken and much evil is to come.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, yeah. He knows something's coming. You can feel it. And of course, because he has the connections with the White Council, they know so much of what's going on. He has an understanding of something is coming. And because he knows of Sauron, he knows what is coming.

[Alan Sisto]

At this point, it's a while before they realize that Bilbo's Ring is the One Ring. The tale of years does tell us when that takes place, and it's not yet. But there's so many things headed in the direction of serious problems coming. There's going to be a conflict, a historical conflict. Maybe not to the level of the Last alliance at the end of the Second Age. Maybe not even to the level of the destruction of Angband and Thengorodrim at the end of the first age. But. But he can tell that the historical circumstances are leading to something. The culmination of an age. And in the relatively near future at least as far as elves are concerned. So, yeah, the day is darkened and much evil is to come. One thing that is not evil is you reading our last passage for the day.

[Sara Brown]

So sorry, you smoothie.

[Alan Sisto]

Take us away.

[Sara Brown]

Okay, then. Aragorn took leave lovingly of Elrond. And the next day he said farewell to his mother and to the house of Elrond and to Arwen. And he went out into the wild. For nearly 30 years he laboured in the cause against Sauron. And he became a friend of Gandalf the Wise from whom he gained much wisdom. With him he made many perilous journeys but as the years wore on, he went more often alone. His ways were hard and long and he became somewhat grim to look upon unless he chanced to smile. And yet he seemed to men worthy of honour as a king, that is, in exile when he did not hide his true shape. For he went in many guises and won renown under many names. He rode in the host of the Rohirrim and fought for the Lord of Gondor by land and by sea. And then in the hour of victory he passed out of the knowledge of men of the west and went alone far into the east and deep into the south. South. Exploring the hearts of men, both evil and good and uncovering the plots and devices of the servants of Sauron. Thus he became at last the most hardy of living men skilled in their crafts and lore and was yet more than they. For he was elven wise and there was a light in his eyes that when they were kindled, few could endure. His face was sad and stern because of the doom that was laid on him. And yet hope dwelt ever in the depths of his heart from which mirth would arise at times like a spring from the rock.

[Alan Sisto]

Mirth. That's not one of those things you think of when you think of Aragorn.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, he's always serious, isn't he?

[Alan Sisto]

I really like that. So, going back to the beginning of that after that really hard conversation I love how this passage starts. Aragorn taking leave of Elrond lovingly.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, this.

[Alan Sisto]

This is so refreshing given what really could be a. A place of tension and strain and bitterness. Just fantastic on. On both their parts. I really admire both of them for not turning this into a hostile thing at all.

[Sara Brown]

Right. They're actually both being the Grown up here.

[Alan Sisto]

They really are.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Proud of them.

[Sara Brown]

Yes, exactly. Exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

Certainly prouder than I am of Thingol.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, yes. Yes. Do you think Elrond had Thingol in mind? Do you think he sort of learning from the mistakes of Thingol?

[Alan Sisto]

I think so. I think he has to. I think the minute he realizes Elrond had to be thinking of this conversation because he would have noticed that Aragorn was falling for Arwen, it's not like he noticed it five minutes ago and says, I need to go have a talk with my son. He noticed it a while ago and he's been pondering what to say. So during that time, he would have hearkened back to the Beren and Luthien story and to Thingol and how Thingol operated and decided, I want none of that. I don't want to be like Thingol.

[Sara Brown]

Right. Because that did not end well for Thingal.

[Alan Sisto]

No, it did not.

[Sara Brown]

So, yeah, I'm with you. I'm really proud of the fact that they seem to have talked it out, acknowledged the position of each other. I mean, really done well here.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Even though they parked it like, we're not going to talk about this again until many years have passed and yet we're still able to, like, okay, that's enough. We've talked through what we need to talk through. We're going to set that aside. But then we're going to take leave of one another lovingly.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

This is his father, for all intents and purposes.

[Sara Brown]

It is. And it is good that he doesn't leave on a bitter note.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes. Yeah, yeah. Like. Like he thought he might. Right. Oh, it's going to be my fate to wander bitterly in the wilderness. And you're going to have to wander in the wilderness. Yeah, exactly. No.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. So there would be another mistake by Thingol.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. The common denominator here is. Yeah. So instead, he says goodbye to everyone and he heads out for those many years of trial that Elrond told him about, which is almost 30 years of work against Sauron. And, of course, he does exactly what Gil Rhyme said he would do, wander alone in the wilderness. And in that time, he meets and becomes friends with Gandalf. The Tale of years says. 29:56. So four years into his journeys, he becomes friends with Gandalf.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. And while he made some of those dangerous journeys with Gandalf initially, as the years of his trials went on, he did it more alone. In fact, the Tale of Years says that the very next year, 2957, he began his great journeys as Thorongil, the Eagle of the Star serving both King Thengel of Rohan and the steward, Ecthelion II of Gondor, all the way up through 2980.

[Sara Brown]

Right. And, of course, that has some unintended resonances later on, doesn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, it does.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. While we never get a lot of detail on his time in Rohan we can go back to episode 350 that you did with Don Marshall to look a bit at his time in Gondor. It says in much that Ecthelion II did. He had the aid and advice of a great captain whom he loved above all, Thorongil. Men called him in Gondor the Eagle of the Star. For he was swift and keen eyed and wore a silver star upon his cloak. But no one knew his true name nor in what land he was born. He came to Ecthelion from Rohan where he had served the king Thengel. But he was not one of the Rohirrim. He was a great leader of Men by land or by sea. But he departed into the shadows whence he came before the days of Ecthelion were ended.

[Alan Sisto]

I kind of wish we got to see more of him at sea. I know he handles the fleet at Pelargir and comes up the Anduin. But, you know this idea that he was a great leader of Men by land or by sea. And then we see later on that he does go down to Umbar and, you know, after Ecthelion gives him permission, he goes down and fights and defeats the captain of the Haven in battle. I wonder what he was like as a sailing captain.

[Sara Brown]

A ship's captain. Yeah. It seems like he's going out and collecting all the skills.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah, he really is. He's checking off all the boy Scout badges for sure. Right. When he comes back with his men, Thorongil won't even enter Minas Tirith though he says other tasks now call me lord and much time and many perils must pass ere I come again to Gondor, if that be my fate.

[Sara Brown]

It's the end game, he knows. Yeah, coming back to Gondor is the end game. But he's got a lot to do in between. Of course, Ecthelion II's son, Denethor was absolutely fine with Thorongil leaving.

[Alan Sisto]

Don't let the doorknob hitch in the butt on the way out.

[Sara Brown]

Exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

Just go.

[Sara Brown]

For the most part, they provided Ecthelion with the same counsel, except when it came to Gandalf. Thorongil often warned Ecthelion not to put Trust in Saruman the White in Isengard but to welcome rather, Gandalf the Grey. But there's little love between Denethor and Gandalf. And after the days of Ecthelion, there's less welcome for the Grey Pilgrim in Minas Ereth.

[Alan Sisto]

Yep.

[Sara Brown]

So therefore, later, when all was made clear many believe that Denethor, who was subtle in mind and looked further and deeper than other men of his day had discovered who this stranger, Thorongil, in truth was and suspected that he and Mithrandir designed to supplant him. Jealous much?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And you wonder, how would he have discovered that? We know that he hadn't started using the Palantir right away. I don't remember the exact details of when he did but we learn about that in the Unfinished Tales section on the Palantiri. So how did he. I mean, I guess he is pretty perceptive, let's be honest. Right? The text tells us that about Denethor So it's possible he just was able to see things about Thorongil. And I go, hmm, he looks a little like these pictures we have of Isildur. You know, what is this family resemblance? Right, Exactly. And he's really tall and he doesn't have a beard. He doesn't have a hint of facial hair at all. So he must have, you know, Elvish blood and he must be a Numenorean descent, blah, blah.

[Sara Brown]

But there's also the fact that Denethor was not unhappy when Thorongil leaves.

[Alan Sisto]

Not at all unhappy.

[Sara Brown]

Perhaps. There's also a little bit of, well, Thorongil likes Gandalf, so I'm going to not like Gandalf.

[Alan Sisto]

I think there's a little bit of that too. Yeah, no doubt. I mean, certainly the fact that we read about Ecthelion really admiring Thorongil sometimes to the cost of. To the detriment of Denethor.

[Sara Brown]

Ouch.

[Alan Sisto]

Which, yeah, very much ouch. Because then you look at the kind of father that Denethor became who favored one son over the other to the detriment of the other.

[Sara Brown]

Right?

[Alan Sisto]

So it is rubbish. It's very unfortunate, for sure. Beginning in 2980, when he left Gondor Aragorn's trials took him further into the east and south, the text says uncovering the plots and devices of the servants of Sauron. And, boy, is there ripe ground for some amazing stories. What does he encounter?

[Sara Brown]

Can you imagine all the gaps that could be filled here?

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, the stories you could fill in here about him discovering all these things.

[Sara Brown]

That might Be the next project for Warner Brothers. The Early Years of Aragorn, son of Arathorn.

[Alan Sisto]

Aragorn as Thorongil.

[Sara Brown]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, Thorongil. I'd watch that, no doubt about it. I mean, I'd. I just don't want things made out of. Totally out of whole cloth. But here they would have to be, because we don't have any of these details. I do know, though, that he walked at least 500 miles because he had to walk 500 miles back to Arwen.

[Sara Brown]

So he would walk 500 miles and then would walk 500 more.

[Alan Sisto]

500 more. So he could be. Yes.

[Sara Brown]

Just to be the one who walked a thousand miles to turn up her door.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes. Thousand percent. Thousand miles, actually. Yes. Had to be done.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, it had to be done. Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

You think about all the other songs we've mentioned today, we had to come to that one. I do love how his years of hard trial made him the most hardy of living men. This guy's tough as nails. And on top of that, he's not just a tough guy. He's described as Elven wise. Now, I want to have a very quick discussion. Nature, nurture. How much of this is because he's got Elven blood in him as a descendant of Elros, but how much is because he was raised as Elrond's son in Rivendell?

[Sara Brown]

Well, the answer to that is yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Why not both?

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that's fair. Yeah. I guess it's a really short discussion. But you're right. And that's the thing. It is. I think the fact is, you could raise me in Rivendell and I wouldn't have that because I don't have that in me. There's no potential for that greatness. Aragorn has that potential, but then had to have it also by being raised in Rivendell and exposed to Elrond and Eladan and Elrohir for all those years that gave him that Elven wisdom. Yeah. That makes sense, right?

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. I mean, if he'd lived the first 20 years of his life just in the wilderness.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Then all that potential would be there, but no means of tapping it and no understanding that it's there to be tapped.

[Alan Sisto]

But it had to be there in the first place. So, yeah, it really is both. You're right. Good. Good insect. Thank you for pointing out the obvious. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Hey, that's what I'm here for. But the description of his appearance and character is. Is quite vivid, isn't it? It is sad and stern, but there's this Hope deep inside. A hope that would lead to laughter and amusement in unexpected moments. So every now and then, let's go.

[Alan Sisto]

Aragorn. Yeah. The mirth. I love it. It's such a. It really does. We see that in the text, don't we? We see Aragorn every once in a while. Getting a little. A little funny.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. He goes from Souragorn to Merthagorn every now and then.

[Alan Sisto]

He does. He does. I like that. I. It does make me think of one of my favorite first edition moments that got changed and it was like, what did you. What did you tell him when you were looking at the palantir? He said, I have a rascal rebel of a dwarf that I would trade for a serviceable orc. Something along those lines. Absolutely brilliant stuff. I do love his humor. It does not. It does not appear very often, but when it does, it's great. And it is like you said, that the source of it is the hope that he has within him.

[Sara Brown]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

So thus he became, at last, the most hardy of living barkeeps, skilled in pouring drinks, but not so much in delivering letters. Sara, what does Barbad have for us tonight?

[Sara Brown]

Just this one question that I think would be interesting to have a look at.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay.

[Sara Brown]

To what extent is the story of Arwen and Aragorn a tragedy? Ooh, yeah. Exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes. Well, for Elrond, it certainly is.

[Sara Brown]

Well, it is, isn't it? And I think that perhaps this is a question that we could return to when we've looked at everything that happens.

[Alan Sisto]

That's true. Yeah. Part B of this answer will be next week. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

I mean, the thing is that if we go back to Greek tragedy, there's a very specific definition of tragedy, which is the fall of someone great to something low. And that is not really what happens here. Unless you read that as what happens to Arwen. Right.

[Alan Sisto]

To go from elf to mortal.

[Sara Brown]

Right. But that then forces us to read mortal as so much lower.

[Alan Sisto]

That's the thing. I mean, they're lower, but they're not. Yeah, yeah. This isn't like her falling from, you know, Elf queen to the right hand of Sauron.

[Sara Brown]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

That would be the fall which would be a tragedy. Yeah, Yeah. I guess if we're looking at it in that narrow sense. Narrow is the wrong word. In that sort of very precise sense.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

The tight definition of tragedy, then. Probably not. Because we would have to read becoming mortal as being like a bad, bad thing when it is not. I mean, Tolkien himself describes, I mean, the lay of Laethean we mentioned it earlier. It is the release from bondage.

[Sara Brown]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Are we talking about the. We literally don't know what he's talking about because it could be we released the Silmarils from bondage, or it could be that Luthien released Baron from bondage when he was in Tower and Garho. It's arguably Luthien's release from the bondage of immortality. Exactly.

[Sara Brown]

The bondage of being tied to Middle Earth. Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

They. Their existence is, you know, coincides with the entire existence of Arda. Only when Arda is destroyed and remade and we don't know what happens to them them then that's only when things end for them. It's why we get the elves trying to explain to the men of Numenor who should be jealous of who.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, you get to. You get to leave this place. We'd never get to leave. So I, I think given how Tolkien has explained the release of bondage and how we see that, we cannot see becoming mortal as a bad thing. It is a tragic set of events.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. That's a 21st century. Yeah. 21st century reading of the word tragic meaning sad.

[Alan Sisto]

Sad. Yeah. And that is accurate. It's very sad. I. You know who I'm actually really sad for? Calabrian.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

She won't even know that she made this choice until it's too late. She. Ah, that just breaks my heart. I mean, at least Elon is going to get to say goodbye. Elon and Elro here are going to get to say goodbye. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. Waiting at the shores for the ship to pull in and she's looking, oh, there's my husband.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, they're my sons. Maybe, maybe they're on another boat later on. But where's Arwen? That. That hurts. Yeah, that's gotta be. Especially for a mom that's gotta be just.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, heartbreaking. Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's certainly gonna make the. The time in Valinor, the time in the Undying Lands less rich. You know, there's gonna be a bitterness to it that, that even the joy of Valinor can't really completely overcome for her and for Elrond. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

On that happy note, folks, that wraps it up for another episode of the Prancing Pony podcast. But be sure to come back. Come back next week when a 49 year old Aragorn returns from Mordor and Arwen makes her choice.

[Sara Brown]

Alan and I want to thank the members of Team PPP editor Jordan Rannells Barleyman, Becca Davis, Social media manager Casey Hilsey event and Patreon community coordinator Katie McKenna, graphic artist Megan Collins, and website guru Phil Dean.

[Alan Sisto]

And please take a minute to check out the prancingponypodcast.com that's where you'll find our show notes, outtakes, Prancing Pony ponderings, and our online storefront where you can get PPP merch featuring all the great episode artwork that Megan's been doing for the show since the start of Season eight.

[Sara Brown]

You'll also want to visit our library page because the Prancing Pony Podcast is, after all, a podcast about the books. So if you're interested in a book we've mentioned on the show, you'll find a link for it in our library. We do get a small amount of compensation when you make your purchase, and we thank you for that.

[Alan Sisto]

Indeed we do. And we also want to thank our patrons at the Kirdan's contributions here. I'll start with Demay in Alaska, Chad in Texas, Lance in New Jersey, Paul in Colorado, Joseph in Michigan, Kathy from North Carolina, Carlos in California, Brian in the uk, Jerry from from Washington, Joe in Washington, Irwin from the Netherlands, Ben in Minnesota, Anthony in Texas, Zaksu in Illinois, Sarah in New Jersey, Joshua in Massachusetts, Lucy in Texas, Keith in Alabama, and Erica in Texas.

[Sara Brown]

And there's also Carson in Oklahoma, Vivienne in California, James in Massachusetts, Ann in Kentucky, Sean in New Jersey, Mason in California, Maureen from Massachusetts, Olivia in London, Robert in Arizona, Nick in Wisconsin, Lewis in South Carolina, Thomas in Germany, Craig in California, Bailey in Texas, Kevin in Massachusetts, Julie in Washington, Bruce in California, Joe in Maryland, Nathan in Arizona and Kevin in Pennsylvania. Thank you all so very much for your support indeed.

[Alan Sisto]

Thank you.

[Sara Brown]

Now make sure you don't miss any episodes of the Prancing Ponies podcast. Subscribe now through Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or your favorite podcast app.

[Alan Sisto]

And one last thing. As always, don't forget to send your thoughts, comments, and most of all, your mirth arising like springs from the rock. Because we could always use more mirth to barnum@the prancingponypodcast.com and if you want.

[Sara Brown]

Your voice literally heard, well, just send us audio of your question. Visit pod inbox.com prancingponypod and record your question for us. Please be sure to still email the question to Barleyman, though, even though Barloman's.

[Alan Sisto]

Been a lot more reliable lately, there's still a lot of mail to sort through. We'll try to get to you just as soon as we're able. As always, though, this has been far too short a time to spend among such excellent and admirable listeners. But until next time, however.

[Sara Brown]

Farewell, folks.

[Alan Sisto]

SA.