367 – Hard to Say I’m Sorry

Summary

The Prancing Pony Podcast - Episode 367: "Hard to Say I’m Sorry"

Overview In episode 367 of The Prancing Pony Podcast, hosts Alan Sisto and Sara delve deep into the intricate relationship between Aragorn and Arwen as depicted in J.R.R. Tolkien’s appendices of The Lord of the Rings. Titled "Hard to Say I’m Sorry," this episode navigates through themes of fate, free will, and the profound sacrifices made by key characters within the Middle-earth legendarium. Through detailed analysis and engaging discussion, Alan and Sara illuminate the depth of Tolkien’s world-building, shedding light on aspects that often remain overlooked by casual readers.

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1. Introduction to Aragorn and Arwen's Tale

Reading the Tale The episode commences with Alan reading a passage from Appendix A, focusing on the reunion and eventual union of Aragorn and Arwen. This excerpt sets the stage for a comprehensive exploration of their relationship:

[10:37] Alan Sisto: "He that would be Aragorn did not know it, but Arwen Evenstar was also there, dwelling again for a time with the kin of her mother..."

Initial Reflections Sara introduces herself with a creative flair, aligning with the podcast’s Tolkien-centric ambiance:

[02:24] Sara: "I'm Sara, the shield maiden of Rohan, and I'm here with the man of the west who never walks barefoot in the grass, Alan Sisto."

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2. Themes of Fate and Free Will

Fateful Choices A significant portion of the discussion revolves around the interplay between fate and free will in Aragorn and Arwen's story. The hosts dissect how Tolkien masterfully balances these themes, particularly through Arwen's pivotal choice:

[22:20] Sara: "Yes. The fate has to be accepted. The fate has to be chosen. In that sense, it is a little bit different to the moment of Beren and Luthien meeting, because Arwen has, as you say, this choice that must be made between being mortal or being of elf kind."

Determined Paths Alan further elaborates on Aragorn's role within this framework, emphasizing his proactive decisions amidst predetermined destinies:

[31:05] Alan Sisto: "What we're seeing here, I don't want to. I'm not blaming Gilrain for feeling the way she is, but we're definitely seeing a hope versus despair moment."

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3. Arwen's Choice and Agency

Empowered Decisions The podcast underscores Arwen's agency in choosing mortality for love, contrasting it with other Tolkien characters who often have their fates entwined with prophecy and destiny:

[20:52] Sara: "She sets eyes on him and her doom is appointed in that moment. Just as it was with Luthien when Beren calls Tinuviel, Tinuviel, and she turns around and goes, ooh."

Comparative Analysis Alan and Sara compare Arwen’s choice to that of Miriel and Denethor, highlighting the nuances of agency and sacrifice:

[93:00] Sara: "That is a really tough question. And my head just exploded."

[93:05] Alan Sisto: "Yeah. I think you’re right. It’s probably way more to do with the fact that it’s not that her boo isn’t there."

Sara draws parallels between Arwen and other characters, reinforcing her significance beyond superficial roles:

[80:56] Sara: "Yes, because otherwise it's easy to make that judgment, actually, that Arwen is simply stays at home sewing banners."

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4. Changes from Drafts to Published Version

Editorial Shifts The hosts explore how Tolkien’s drafts evolved, particularly focusing on the portrayal of Arwen and the depth added to her character in published works:

[58:59] Alan Sisto: "We read earlier that her choice was made and her doom appointed when they were walking together before they even plighted their troth."

Enhanced Characterization Discussion highlights the transformation from draft versions where Arwen's agency was limited to the published narrative where she emerges as a pivotal figure:

[60:48] Sara: "Quite a change. It is definitely quite a change. I mean, it suggests that he has the authority to say, sorry, Arwen, I know you’ve chosen, but I’m not going to allow it."

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5. Comparisons to Other Tolkien Characters

Isildur and Miriel Alan and Sara draw meaningful comparisons between Aragorn and figures like Isildur and Miriel, examining themes of sacrifice and leadership:

[62:05] Sara: "Yesildur."

[63:00] Sara: "And here I think we find another parallel between Aragorn and Faramir. Faramir is another one who has no desire for the Ring."

Faramir vs. Boromir The discussion extends to contrasting Aragorn with Boromir and Faramir, emphasizing wisdom over valor:

[65:37] Sara: "And Faramir is a greater man than Boromir."

[65:49] Alan Sisto: "No. They have to, you know, just in the same general vicinity."

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6. Significance of Foresight and Hope

Arwen’s Insight A recurring theme is Arwen’s foresight and how it shapes Aragorn’s actions, underpinning critical victories such as the Battle of Pelennor:

[77:44] Alan Sisto: "That is glorious. What a great summary that is."

[79:11] Sara: "No. It was Arwen whose foresight actually warned him about what was to happen on the sea Peril."

Impact on Middle-earth The hosts discuss how these elements of hope and foresight not only influence individual characters but also the broader narrative of Middle-earth’s fate:

[83:19] Alan Sisto: "Paying all this money for Liv Tyler and all she does is show up in the last scene."

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7. Conclusion: The Weight of Sacrifice

Final Reflections As the episode draws to a close, Alan and Sara reflect on the profound sacrifices made by Arwen and Aragorn, encapsulating the essence of their relationship and its impact on the fate of Middle-earth:

[105:20] Sara: "Yes. Because it’s all about empowering Sam and making Sam more important because he’s the one who turns them around."

[110:42] Alan Sisto: "It is a hobbit centered story. Has to be right."

Emotional Undertones The episode concludes with a poignant acknowledgment of the emotional depth of Aragorn and Arwen’s story, highlighting the enduring legacy of their choices:

[117:31] Sara: "But until next time, however, Farewell, friends."

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Notable Quotes

• Alan Sisto [10:37]: "He that would be Aragorn did not know it, but Arwen Evenstar was also there, dwelling again for a time with the kin of her mother."

• Sara [22:20]: "Yes. The fate has to be accepted. The fate has to be chosen."

• Sara [80:56]: "Yes, because otherwise it's easy to make that judgment, actually, that Arwen is simply stays at home sewing banners."

• Alan Sisto [77:44]: "That is glorious. What a great summary that is."

• Sara [62:05]: "Yesildur."

• Alan Sisto [93:00]: "That is a really tough question. And my head just exploded."

• Sara [113:05]: "He’s not just a pretty elf who sews, you know, standards and banners and then turns up."

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Final Thoughts

Episode 367 of The Prancing Pony Podcast offers a nuanced and comprehensive examination of Aragorn and Arwen’s narrative arc within Tolkien’s expansive universe. Through meticulous analysis and passionate discussion, Alan and Sara illuminate the depths of character development, thematic complexity, and the enduring relevance of these legendary figures. For enthusiasts seeking a deeper understanding of Middle-earth’s intricate lore, this episode serves as an invaluable resource, bridging gaps between the primary texts and their rich, underlying narratives.

Transcript

[Alan Sisto]

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[Sara]

But like an elf lord from the Isles of the West.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, okay, I'm not six foot six, so probably not.

[Sara]

Folks, pull up a bench in the common room and join us. I'm Sara, the shield maiden of Rohan, and I'm here with the man of the west who never walks barefoot in the grass, Alan Sisto.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, there's no Nyfradel and Eleanor near me well, there's an Eleanor. That's my daughter, but that's a different story. Anyway, I'd rather stay inside or read my books. Folks, join us as Sara and I conclude our brief time in the tale of Aragorn and Arwen found in Appendix A.

[Sara]

Now, folks, no matter how you arrived across the grass or across the Helcoaxo, you're all welcome Here in the common room at the Prancing Pony Podcast, we are reading and talking our way through Middle Earth with plenty of speculation and some really terrible jokes along the way.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, we try. We do love our deep dives into the lore, discussing our favorite themes and a whole lot more, but we do.

[Sara]

Try to keep it light and fun, like a couple of friends chatting at the pub. And we. We're glad you joined us.

[Alan Sisto]

Indeed we are. And I'm sure you'll be glad you joined as well. But before Sara and I get to tonight's chapter discussion, it's time for a visit to the Wayback Machine and the North Wing. Well, today we're bringing you another new installment of the North Wing.

[Maureen Denison]

Barlow and Butterbur had a room or two in the North Wing at the Prancing Pony Inn, made special for hobbits. And this is our place made special for some of our listeners to give us a chance to get to know them.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Now, rooms at the North Wing are a little bit hard to come by these days, so only our patrons at the Elronds Honorarium and Kierdan's contribution tiers are eligible. So if you'd like to be one of the next patrons to join us, be sure to check out patreon.com prancingponypod Please do.

[Maureen Denison]

We've got a waiting list for the North Wing right now, but we'll get to them all soon and we'll make room for more if necessary.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Well, then, why don't we welcome our guest to the North Wing today, Maureen Denison.

[Sara]

Hello.

[Alan Sisto]

Hello, Maureen. Thank you for joining us. Tell us a little bit about yourself. Where are you from, what do you do? And of course, what do your loved ones think of all this Tolkien stuff you're into?

[Gilrain]

Well, I'm from Andover, Massachusetts, and I think my family is fairly tolerant because my four kids, I read the Hobbit to them and then the other books, nighttime reading. So, yeah, I'm not too bad a nerd with them.

[Alan Sisto]

That's nice to know. It's always good when family members sort of, if they don't necessarily appreciate it, at least they Tolerate it.

[Gilrain]

I actually was introduced to Tolkien. I would say it was 1968, dating myself. But my brother had a Volkswagen Beetle car, and his girlfriend was a great artist, and she painted his car in this Lord of the Rings theme.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, wow.

[Gilrain]

But I didn't know what that was, but so she had, like, Smaug wrapped around the top of the car.

[Sara]

So.

[Gilrain]

Awesome.

[Alan Sisto]

Because that is great.

[Gilrain]

I was like, in seventh grade. So dragons are cool.

[Alan Sisto]

And then they still are well past the seventh grade, and dragons are still cool.

[Gilrain]

So one side had Gandalf on one door and the other side had the Black Riders. And I also remember she put Gollum sneaking up the back trunk. But at the time, I had no idea what this was. So I'm like, what is going on? And so I was really fascinated. So I soon figured out, you know, they told me they had these books and they loved them. And so that's kind of where I started. I borrowed the books from my brother.

[Alan Sisto]

Right on.

[Maureen Denison]

Well, Maureen, what was your experience like and why do you keep coming back to Tolkien?

[Gilrain]

Well, I read the books that my brother had, and I had already been into sort of. I don't even know if they called it fantasy back then. It was always in the science fiction section. But I read those sort of young adult books and, you know, the just kind of the regular basic science fiction stories like NCS Lewis, Susan Cooper, Madeleine L'Engle. I don't know, Lloyd Alexander. But it was natural for me to get into Lord of the Rings.

[Alan Sisto]

I suppose it would be, well, what is your favorite book in the legendarium and why? And then if you have read the non legendarium books or any of them, what would your favorite one of those be?

[Gilrain]

I have so much more to read. That's for sure. Every time I hear you guys, I'm like, I gotta get that book.

[Alan Sisto]

We are dangerous that way.

[Gilrain]

I guess the one that comes to mind non legendarium, is Father Christmas. Because I did read it to my.

[Alan Sisto]

Kids, and that's such a neat one.

[Gilrain]

I love taking the little. You know, they love taking the letters.

[Alan Sisto]

Out of the envelopes and that is so cool. Yeah. There's the edition that has the little replica letters and the replica envelopes. It's great.

[Gilrain]

Yeah, I had that one. But all the stories are great, you know, just being introduced to. I guess the one that sticks in my head is Baron and Luthien.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay. Yeah.

[Gilrain]

And the one I read at the time, the one that I read most recently, I love Tevildo. You know, the evil cat.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. The predecessor To Sauron, of course. He's a cat.

[Gilrain]

Cats are evil.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I have one, and I actually still share that opinion.

[Maureen Denison]

Well, speaking of evil cats, have you ever given a pet or a child a name inspired by Tolkien? And if you haven't, would you? And what name?

[Alan Sisto]

Ah.

[Gilrain]

Oh, that's a good question. Well, I do love Tulkas. I suppose if it was the right dog, I could do that. I tried to name my fourth daughter Eleanor with the E, L a, N O, R, but my husband wouldn't have it.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, no.

[Gilrain]

His grandmother was Eleanor, traditionally speaking.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh. So it had to be spelled the correct way.

[Gilrain]

Yeah, that's the closest I got.

[Alan Sisto]

That's great. I like the idea of a dog named Tulkas. It would have to be a big, hulking dog, wouldn't it? I mean, you couldn't name a Shih Tzu Chihuahua. Yeah. Tulkas. Let me get Tulkas out of my purse. No, it doesn't work like that.

[Maureen Denison]

I kind of like the irony of it.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that's true. Actually, that is pretty funny now that I think about it.

[Gilrain]

Well, we had two Shelties. So it didn't work.

[Alan Sisto]

No. No. All right, well, we're going to go ahead and move into the Lightning round. Marine, I don't know if you have heard these, but these are basically quick questions and answ. We're gonna start with a real simple one. Who is your favorite character in the Lord of the Rings?

[Gilrain]

Oh, that's so difficult. I have to say Eowyn. Cause I guess when I was introduced to her, that was my. That was my hero.

[Alan Sisto]

Really not a bad choice.

[Maureen Denison]

Favorite scene or moment in the legendarium?

[Gilrain]

I. I don't know. I keep going back to the war. The war. Hiram's coming up, so I keep going back to that. Theoden's final ride.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes. Another not bad choice. Well, I have a feeling that I know the answer you're going to give to this one. Rohan or Gondor?

[Gilrain]

I like them both, but because I'm a librarian, I have to say Gondor because they have more. More cultural heritage.

[Alan Sisto]

They certainly do.

[Maureen Denison]

Rivendell or Lorian?

[Gilrain]

Rivendell.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay. Same library choice, I would imagine. Driving factor?

[Gilrain]

You bet.

[Alan Sisto]

All right. Favorite poem or song in the legendarium?

[Gilrain]

Oh, yeah. That's a tough one, too, I guess. The one about the road goes ever on.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yes. The road goes ever on. There's a couple of different variants of that, of course, and it's always neat to see the way that changes over time.

[Gilrain]

Right.

[Maureen Denison]

Favorite Tolkien artist or work of art.

[Gilrain]

Oh, my gosh. They're all so great. They're all so great.

[Alan Sisto]

Your brother's Volkswagen Beetle.

[Gilrain]

Yeah, that was my introduction for sure. But there's different ones I love for different reasons. But of course. Alan Lee, I think.

[Alan Sisto]

Yep, not a bad call. All right, those are some great answers. Thank you, Maureen.

[Gilrain]

Thank you.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, we have enjoyed having you here in the north wing, but it is time for us all to head back into the common room and join the rest of the listeners.

[Maureen Denison]

Thanks again, and we'll see you back at our questions after nightfall, if not sooner.

[Alan Sisto]

And now we return you to the podcast in progress.

[Sara]

Right, Helen, do you want to lead us off with the first reading?

[Alan Sisto]

He that would be Aragorn did not know it, but Arwen Eundomiel was also there, dwelling again for a time with the kin of her mother. She was little changed, for the mortal years had passed her by, yet her face was more grave, and her laughter now seldom was heard. But Aragorn was grown to full stature of body and mind, and Galadriel bade him cast aside his way worn raiment, and she clothed him in silver and white, with a cloak of Elven grey and a bright gem on his brow. Then, more than any king of men, he appeared, and seemed rather an Elf Lord from the Isles of the West. And thus it was that Arwen first beheld him again after their long parting. And as he came walking towards her under the trees of Carascaradon, laden with flowers of gold, her choice was made and her doom appointed. Then for a season they wandered together in the glades of Lothlorien until it was time for him to depart. And on the evening of Midsummer, Aragorn, Arathorn's son and Arwen, daughter of Elrond, went to the fair hill Keren Amroth, in the midst of the land. And they walked upon the Undying Grass, with Elenor and Nithra Dil about their feet. And there upon that hill, they looked east to the shadow and west to the twilight. And they plighted their troth and were glad. And Arwen said, dark is the shadow, and yet my heart rejoices for you. Estelle shall be among the great whose valor will destroy it. But Aragorn answered, alas, I cannot foresee it. And how it may come to pass is hidden from me. Yet with your hope I will hope, and the Shadow I utterly reject. But neither lady is the twilight for me, for I am mortal, and if you will cleave to me Evenstar, then the twilight you Must also renounce. And she stood then, as still as a white tree, looking into the west. And at last she said, I will cleave to you, Dunedan, and turn from the twilight. Yet there lies the land of my people and the long home of all my kin. She loved her father dearly. Already pulling on the heartstrings already.

[Sara]

I know, right? Yeah. So much in there actually to talk about.

[Alan Sisto]

There is, yeah.

[Sara]

But we skip reading the first paragraph. So let's take a look at it here. Aragorn is now 49 and he's been living rough for a few years, having come back to Rivendell after dealing with perils on the dark confines of Mordor.

[Alan Sisto]

There's a story there, isn't there?

[Sara]

Isn't there? Yes. I bet there's some good fan fiction on it too.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

Yeah. He's heading back to Rivendell to rest, not to see Arwen, but to prepare for more journeys into far countries like Rune and Harad. Etc.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Now, this is the year 2980. And it's not just because we did the math on his age, but because the Tale of Years says it explicitly.

[Sara]

Very helpful.

[Alan Sisto]

The Tale of Years is such a help, especially in these appendices because a lot of times we're covering large chunks of time in like a sentence and it's like, okay, what happened in between? The Tale of Years is helpful here because it also says that Aragorn's great journeys in errantries, including his time as Throngil in Rohan and Gondor, took place from 2956 to 2980. So he went straight from those great journeys towards Rivendell. Like on any good road trip, he stops on his way not at a 711 or a Buc EE's or a McDonald's, but in Lorien. Smart guy.

[Sara]

Yeah, it's definitely a higher class establishment.

[Alan Sisto]

Than Mickey dad about it. I mean, they got showers there and everything, man.

[Sara]

Well, yes, they do. A reminder of the power of Galadriel here. Even Aragorn has to be, quote, admitted to the Hidden Land.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes.

[Sara]

Film Boromir might have said one does not simply walk into Mordor. But he'd have been just as correct to say one does not simply walk into Lorien. Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Unless one wants to be turned into a pin cushion. Yes. So he does get let in. And then picking up where we started reading, once he gets into Lorien, he discovers that Arwen has gone back to Grandma and Grandpa's place for a little visit.

[Sara]

That's so nice of her, isn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

Isn't it? Yeah.

[Sara]

Not surprisingly, she looks virtually the same. But now that emotion we saw expressed so quickly and willingly last episode is. It's kind of gone, isn't it? We remember from the last episode she was filled with laughter and joy and she was a lighter of heart. It's totally different now.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. I mean, not only is the laughter more rare, but she's got a kind of a grave look on her face.

[Sara]

Why do you think that is at this point?

[Alan Sisto]

You beat me to it. Sar, I was going to ask you.

[Sara]

No, no, no, no, no. How do those bus wheels feel?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, Elrond's aware that the world is changing in the sense that, you know, darkness is rising, Sauron is taking root. And I think that Sauron's growth is maybe even more obvious in Lorien on the other side of the Misty Mountains because of the proximity of Dol Guldur. So I just think it's a general reflection of the times perhaps. That would be my initial hunch.

[Sara]

Yep, there's that. And also her boyfriend's been away a while.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Did she think of him as her boyfriend yet? I don't know. I mean he was just a bright eyed, bushy haired, little 20 year old boy before.

[Sara]

Yeah, that's true.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

Yeah. I think it's probably, you're right. It's probably way more to do with the fact that it's not that her boo isn't there.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm picturing her now like, you know, on some sort of messaging app all the time. Where are you at? Thinking of you. Miss you.

[Sara]

Xx XO no, it's, you're right, it's because the whole atmosphere in Middle Earth has got to be different.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

Even though it's a pretty small period of time for an Elf.

[Alan Sisto]

It is.

[Sara]

But during that time things have been going on in the background. And even though Arwen has probably been very sheltered from a lot of it, that doesn't mean she hasn't heard of things going on. I mean, after all, dad is relatively important. Grandma is pretty important, so.

[Alan Sisto]

And even Grandpa's pretty wise.

[Sara]

Yeah, yeah, I have my own opinions on Cal.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I, I, I do think there's something going on there. I mean, we saw that last episode with Elrond talking about how things are getting darker now. Like I can't even foresee the very near future and how dark things are going to get, but it's going to be your job to get out there and, and face it. So I'M I'm thinking the two are connected. She may have missed him, but we just don't know. No, he of course now is no longer that bright eyed, bushy tailed 20 year old boy. He's now a full grown man, nearing middle age. Human middle age, not Numenorean middle age. Right. He's not 130 yet, but he is at least of full stature, body and mind. And well, thanks to Galadriel, he's got some shiny new threads, right? Silver and white. He's got the Elven cloak, a gem on his brow. This is. He's looking pretty sharp.

[Sara]

Yes. He's looking a little bit different. He's. It's like the clothes are now there to fit the position that he's growing into.

[Alan Sisto]

Always dress for the job you want.

[Sara]

Exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

And now I'm hearing ZZ top sharp dressed man in the back of my head. He's got some cufflinks and, you know, stick pin.

[Sara]

Well, this explains why Arwen's doom comes upon her because girls really go crazy about a sharp dress man.

[Alan Sisto]

Apparently so. I mean she's wearing to throw away her immortality, say, wow, I'm all about this guy. No, I don't want to, I don't want to downplay that or be too funny about it, but I mean, yeah, he really looks like something else, doesn't he?

[Sara]

He does, yeah. It makes him look more kingly now than any king of men. Yeah, it makes him look proper like he's supposed to. Instead the text look, he looks more like an Elf Lord from the Isles of the West. That's, you know, that's a bit of a bump up in status.

[Alan Sisto]

It is. I mean this is a throwback to like tour, you know, where he's like, really? And of course that makes sense given the fate of Tuor and Idril. Just like Aragorn and Arwen. I mean, it's a guy who could be mistaken for an Elf Lord. That's high praise.

[Sara]

Yeah, it's really quite something. But it does provide, I think, this background idea to why it is that it's Aragorn who must do everything that's got to be done. Because this is his fate, this is his doom, this is who he's been born to be. That's very Tolkienian.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, it is, isn't it?

[Sara]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And an Elf Lord from the Isles of the west, no less. We're not talking about some scratty, grotty, Middle Earth elf lord like Thranduil or something like that.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah, no, this is like the Undying Land stuff, isn't it? This is. This is like, you know, not only did he get promoted to Elf, he got promoted to Elf Lord. He got promoted to Elf Lord from the Isles of the West. So this is jumping to the very top of the queue. And it is.

[Sara]

Although, you know, Glorfindel's sulking in a corner right now going, I don't think so, child.

[Alan Sisto]

You've not killed a Balrog. How many Balrogs have you killed, Aragorn?

[Sara]

None. I'm thinking none. So that's right.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

So, you know, like you said earlier, it's not a surprise that Arwen, drawn to this very sharp dressed man, is taken when she sees him. And I do want to linger, though, on this next sentence. It's very, very quick, but I want to have us linger here, sort of talk about the significance of this. Two parts to this. Her choice was made and her doom appointed.

[Sara]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

This happens now. This doesn't happen in Cairn Amroth. It doesn't happen in Minas Tirith when she's brought for the wedding. It happens now.

[Sara]

Yes. And this really reminds me of the moment when Beren and Luthien meet. It's a similar language with Luthien, you know, that her doom comes upon her. And I think that's important because, of course, we have all those parallels between Arwen and Luthien and Tolkien, I think, very deliberately uses very similar language here to describe what happens. She sets eyes on him and her doom is appointed in that moment. Just as it was with Luthien when Beren calls Tinuviel, Tinuviel, and she turns around and goes, ooh.

[Alan Sisto]

What do you make of this? And maybe I'm reading too much into this because if I look back at the Beren and Luthien stuff, I see the same thing about doom, but I don't see the first part of this sentence. Her choice was made. And I wonder if that's because Arwen has a choice that Luthien did not, or at least did not initially have when she met with Beren. She eventually got that choice when she talked with Mandos after his death. But she, of course, would have been subject to the music, right? That her fate was already decided in a way, Arwen, because she can choose to either be of mortal kind or elf kind. And she makes that choice now rather than in Mandos, you know, the Halls of Mandos, when she's, you know, making him moved with pity. I wonder, am I reading too much here? But it Feels like the doom is appointed only after her choice is made.

[Sara]

Yes. The fate has to be accepted. The fate has to be chosen. In that sense, it is a little bit different to the moment of Beren and Luthien meeting, because Arwen has, as you say, this choice that must be made between being mortal or being of elf kind.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[Sara]

And Tolkien is one of those really interesting writers that has a very fine be balance between fate and free will running throughout his stories.

[Alan Sisto]

Right, Fantastic.

[Sara]

Yeah, exactly. So fate is a thing because, for example, let's look at Aragon again. He was born to be this person, but even though he has this fate, he must choose along the way to do the things that he does. He could choose otherwise. He could just, no, I'm going to be a farmer. But he doesn't. He keeps on making the choices to accept his fate every single step of the way. So, yes, it is fate, but choice and free will are built into that fate, which I think is fascinating. I think it's the same thing here with Arwen in that. Yes. Because Tolkien uses the word doom in a very nuanced way. It's not like we 21st century folks think of it, which is bad. It's all bad.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. I am doomed just means bad things are going to happen to me. That's not what Tolkien means at all. It's just.

[Sara]

No, it's very interwoven with fate as an idea, isn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

Which in itself is then interwoven with free will. Like you talked about, I come back to the Baron and Luthien stuff. I actually pulled it up while you were talking because. Wow. It's more nuanced even than I thought. So with Arwen, we get her choice was made and her doom appointed. With Luthien, we read, she halted in wonder, fled no more Baron came to her. As she looked on him, doom fell upon her and she loved him.

[Sara]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

So the love came after the doom. At least in the sentence, the way it's constructed, it almost feels as though she had a little bit less agency at the beginning. Right. And yet she still chose to accept maybe not the fate, but she could have rejected the love. She could have not felt that in return. She chose to do that. But Arwen made the choice, and then the doom came upon her. I feel like that's so significant in terms of Arwen's agency here. Just, you know, last episode we talked so much about agency, but it was regarding Gilrain and her willingness to be married. And you know, how that shifted from the draft version to The. The final version. But this is really interesting. It's not that her choice is made when they are betrothed. It's made right here, right now.

[Sara]

Yes, but that kind of makes sense, doesn't it? It does, because you're supposed to fall in love with the person before you become betrothed. Right. I know that doesn't always happen in some stories.

[Alan Sisto]

Romantic concept. Yeah.

[Sara]

Yes. But that is what's supposed to happen. And I think that's important because for Tolkien, love is a very powerful emotion.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

And it does drive a lot of the action in various parts of the legendarium.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yeah.

[Sara]

The love is not always healthy.

[Alan Sisto]

No. I'm thinking Turin again.

[Sara]

Yes, exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

Whatever. It's unhealthy. Why do I think. Or, you know. Yeah. There's so many more, but. Yeah. Yeah.

[Sara]

Aldarion and Durandes.

[Alan Sisto]

Goodness, I cannot wait to get into that next year with you. That's gonna be so.

[Sara]

Me either. Me either.

[Alan Sisto]

A dozen episodes of sitting on the couch for marriage therapy.

[Sara]

Yeah. But I think that for Tolkien, love is very significant. It's very, very important.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

And so there has to be this moment of great love, even though it's kind of insta love we get.

[Alan Sisto]

I know.

[Sara]

Baron and Lucien and Aragorn and Arwen. It's the same thing.

[Alan Sisto]

It's magical, It's.

[Sara]

Yeah, yeah. Yes. I tripped over and fell into love with you and all that kind of nauseating, saccharine stuff.

[Alan Sisto]

Tell us how Uriah felt.

[Sara]

But it works for the plot, doesn't it? Yes, it does. Because what you want is. It's only doom or fate because of the EU catastrophic moment of these two coming together in this time, in this place, in this moment, and all of the things that will come of that and their importance.

[Alan Sisto]

And there are a lot of things that come from this. I. Yeah. Not only Aragorn's return to the kingship, but all the entire Fourth Age, the rise of men, the fact that we now have elf blood back in the line of royalty. I mean, there's so much that comes from this. Yeah.

[Sara]

Yes. Yeah. Fantastic. Definitely.

[Alan Sisto]

We probably could talk about that all day.

[Sara]

Probably. Yes. But I suppose we should move on. So, going back to the text, we don't know precisely how long Aragorn was here, but the text does say they spent a season wandering together until Midsummer's Eve, which is equivalent to late June for us. But I just want to point out here that time is wibbly wobbly timey wimey in Loth Lauran.

[Alan Sisto]

Anyway. That's right. They're not in Rivendell. They're in Lauran. And time is very. Yeah, time is just more of a suggestion. It's a hint. It's a guideline.

[Sara]

It's a. Yeah, sort of. And actually, you know, I. I've always thought that that works really well as a thing, because what is time to an elf?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

You know, what do they care about a day? A day is breathing in and out. What do they care about a week? I mean, that's breathing in and out twice.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. I'm thinking of Legolas. When he talks about, you know, Rohan being 500 years old, he's like, oh, that's a blink of an eye. Well, that's nothing.

[Sara]

Yes, that's exactly right. And so the fact that Tolkien has time being weird in Lothlorien, to me, that makes total sense. That time for a mortal coming into Lothlorien wouldn't actually work the same. It would be very strange. And, you know, you'd come out the.

[Alan Sisto]

Other end like we see with the Fellowship. Yeah.

[Sara]

Yes, yes. When Sam looks up at the sky and says, hang on, what's going on with the moon?

[Alan Sisto]

No, wait a minute. The moon shouldn't be there. Yeah. It is a little odd that it doesn't happen in Rivendell.

[Sara]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Like you'd think that the two would be similar. But it must have to do with the Rings and the preservation. The preservation effect. The way that lore. The way that Galadriel uses it in Lorien versus the way that Elrond uses it in Rivendell, perhaps.

[Sara]

That's what I would assume, yes. Yeah. And maybe Rivendell gets more visitors.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, maybe. I mean, they are the last only house, so.

[Sara]

Exactly. Whereas Lothlorien is. You shall not enter here.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly, Bob.

[Sara]

Okay. So that evening after, you know, the doom has come upon me to cried the lady of Shalot moment.

[Alan Sisto]

And then they spend a season wandering together. So, yeah, they do.

[Sara]

And then they go to Karen Roth and walk barefoot through the grass.

[Alan Sisto]

So romantic and itchy, but romantic.

[Sara]

Yeah. Good thing there's no ticks in Laurian.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. I mean, because it could be really, really tall grass. This could be like knee length stuff. Yeah. They need their shots. I do love the very brief mention of Eleanor and Nifradil. Not just because I always love the flowers, but I want you as listeners here pay attention to that. Because the presence and eventual absence of these flowers is significant at the end of the story. Take note.

[Sara]

Put a pin in that. So this is the moment they look both east and west to the shadow and the twilight before plighting their troth. Okay. Plighting their truth. We should probably look at this archaic phrase a bit more closely. Alan, you're our word.

[Alan Sisto]

I've been waiting for my chance to get in the word nerdery here. You don't need us to tell you this is the rough accord equivalent of today's engagement. I mean, I think we all know at least the vague notion of what it means, but the phrase is actually a lot more serious than that. To plight means to pledge or engage by solemn promise. It comes from Old English. I probably are not going to pronounce this right, Clayton, to endanger or imperil. And the idea here is to put something in this case, honor, in danger of risk or forfeiture. So it's a very solemn promise. Like, you do not break this promise. And of course, it used to be legally enforceable if you were betrothed, you could not break that betrothal legally. So it was very, very serious. And of course, troth. Not going to be surprised here. It comes from the same word that truth comes from. It means truth or verity. It comes from Old English, treoth, meaning faithfulness, veracity, or truth.

[Sara]

So just by using that archaic phrase, Tolkien has imbued this moment with a heck of a lot of gravitas.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, yes. More than just a modern engage by a long shot.

[Sara]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. So looking east and west is also important because that connects to their promise to one another.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

Arwen acknowledges the darkness of the shadow to the east, but foresees that Aragorn will be one of those who helps to destroy it.

[Alan Sisto]

Once again, foresight playing such a role here.

[Sara]

Right. Yeah. We've had that happen a few times now in this particular tale. But Arwen sees what Aragorn's path is going to be, and she rejoices in the idea. Actually, she's really pleased about the idea that he's thrilled.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. You are the man. You are the one.

[Sara]

Yes. Yeah. Oh, yeah. She's not just engaged to any old bozo. No, no, no.

[Alan Sisto]

I am betrothed to the man who's going to defeat Sauron.

[Sara]

Yes, that's.

[Alan Sisto]

And I love that she's super optimistic about it because she has this foresight. It's not. And again, we come back to, okay, how much of this is certain? How much of this is only going to happen if people make certain choices along the way? The whole idea of foresight is still cloudy and vague. Misty, if you will. I'm thinking back even to and now I'm drawing a blank on the name. Gil Rhine's mother, Dear Heil's wife. The one who said to dear Heil, oh, no, no, I know you don't want her to get married, but if she doesn't get married, we're hosed. And if she does get married, we got some good news coming. Right. He's going to save our people.

[Sara]

Yeah. Because choice is still important all the way along for Tolkien, isn't it? There've got to be good choices made.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, 100%. So, yeah. This is. I love this gift of foresight that she has here. And I especially love Aragorn's response because he, of course, even though he does have some foresight, as we see, you know, we see it when they get to the Argonauth, for instance, there are some other moments like that. And he comes from people who have foresight. He doesn't have it here. And instead he hopes in her hope. Like her hope, which is based on her foresight, is enough for him to have that same hope. I absolutely love that. It's.

[Sara]

Yeah. And there's a reason why he's called Estelle.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. Exactly right. It's just a reflection of his name. And we'll see that throughout. And then, of course, he rejects both the Shadow and the Twilight. So he not only rejects the shadow, like. Like, she's going to do, you know, the darkness of the shadow, and you're going to destroy it. He rejects the Twilight because he has to. It's the far west, where he's not allowed to go, even though he looks like he belongs there.

[Sara]

Yes. He may have some of the attributes. It's never his place. It cannot be his place.

[Alan Sisto]

No. His gift is to be able to leave the circles of the world. Yeah.

[Sara]

Yeah. This is a really hard truth that he then speaks to Arwen. He says that she will also have to renounce that Twilight, that Elven immortality, if she's going to marry him. That's a tough one.

[Alan Sisto]

That is a tough one. I renounce Twilight just because I don't like the movies. But, you know, that's a whole different. Sorry.

[Sara]

Those aren't movies so much as an excrescence.

[Alan Sisto]

I. I feel like Aragorn does this, right. He's. He's in a really intense conversation with somebody very important to him, and he speaks a really hard truth. Like, I go back to Elrond and Elrond's like, man, you just. This is going to be tough. And he's like, yeah, but, you know, What? Your time is almost up anyway, pal. Yeah. Wow. Thanks for reminding me, son.

[Sara]

Yeah. Brutal.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, I know he did it more class than I did, but that's, again, low bar, saying nothing. Very, very hard truth here.

[Sara]

But it's important. It's important, actually, that he speaks this hard truth.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes.

[Sara]

Because if she's going to make a choice, it has to be an informed choice.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. Uninformed consent is no consent.

[Sara]

Exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

That would be red flags, 100%. I don't think it's an accident. Moving on. In the text that she's described as being as still as a white tree.

[Sara]

Oh, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Not just a tree and not. They're in Lothlorien. She should have been described perhaps, as still as a. As a mallorn. Right. As a silver tree. No, she's described as still as a white tree. What do you think is the significance of this? Is this connected to the tree of Gondor? Is this connected to white in its symbolism as good? Is it white like fear? Like we talk about somebody who goes white as a sheet. What do you make of as still as a white tree? Or am I reading way too much into this?

[Sara]

I have always read it as reflecting the White Tree of Gondor which in itself has an enormous history. Of course.

[Alan Sisto]

Huge history.

[Sara]

Yeah, a huge history. And I think that it's used as a metaphor here because. Because it connects her with Aragorn's own history.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes.

[Sara]

And it's part of her choice, which.

[Alan Sisto]

We'Ll then see also in the standard that she weaves for him while he's out.

[Sara]

Yeah, absolutely. And you mentioned the color white and, you know, all the things that it can connote. And I think that's all part of it being a white tree anyway. That sense of purity and brightness and all that sort of thing is woven into it being a white tree. But that's how I've always read it.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a very good point. I hadn't thought about that before, but there's a reason why the White Tree of Gondor is a white tree. Yeah.

[Sara]

Yeah. Yes, that totally makes sense. It's so much more a symbol of purity. It's closer to silver that Tolkien definitely prefers over gold anyway.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, always. Yes.

[Sara]

Yeah. But white has that sheer purity that I think carries with it the light from the west which is why we.

[Alan Sisto]

See Gandalf the White when he comes back. It's why we have the White Tower as well in Minas Tirith. That's a very good point.

[Sara]

Okay, so continuing with the text, Arwen Confirms her choice and doom that she already made earlier. She turns from her immortality and she chooses, she says, to cleave to Aragorn. The Dunedan.

[Alan Sisto]

The Dunedan. Which means, as we've explained before on the show, the man of the West. Which makes me think I need to change my nickname to something a lot more prosaic. Maybe I'm shooting a little high.

[Sara]

Oh, you know, we should always be ambitious, Alan.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Dress for the job you want. Right, Exactly.

[Sara]

But she doesn't make this choice without pain. And again, I think this speaks back to the moment where Elrond says to Aragorn, oy, this is. This is something pretty deep you're making.

[Alan Sisto]

One of us is gonna be hurt really, really badly. Yeah.

[Sara]

Yes. Yeah. And actually, it's not just Elrond that's going to feel the pain. Arwen will feel the pain. It's where her people are in the West. It's the home of all of her loved ones. You mentioned in the last episode that, you know, she hasn't seen her mother in how long and now she'll never see her again.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, right. I still dread how terrible would it have been for Elrond? Have to share that news with Columbia.

[Sara]

Yes. I mean, how do you say that? I mean, that's not something you can just text across the waters, is it? You do have to give that message in person.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. And that's just a heartbreaking thing. I can't begin to feel that pain.

[Sara]

And also the fact that she's going to leave her father. And we do get the sense from the text that she does have a great closeness to her father.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Even though she's visiting Grandma and grandpa a lot, she does clearly have that closeness. In fact, the next sentence just very simply on its own, she loved her father dearly. I mean, there's a reason why he added that. And it isn't just to give us a parallel with Feanor, you know, I mean, Feanor's only strong suit, right?

[Gilrain]

Yes.

[Sara]

He loved his dad.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, well, that's great. Craftsman. Loved his dad. Everything else awful on the negative side of the scale.

[Sara]

Yeah. But yeah, she does. She does love her father. I love the fact they don't mention her brothers at all. They're totally irrelevant here.

[Alan Sisto]

Call that an arrow here. Whatever. They're just bros, you know, she's like, that's fine.

[Sara]

I'm stinky little brothers. Who cares?

[Alan Sisto]

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[Maureen Denison]

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[Alan Sisto]

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[Maureen Denison]

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[Alan Sisto]

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[Alan Sisto]

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[Sara]

Yep, because the PPP has an amazing listener community, they're always coming up with great questions and discussions across all our social media spaces. Check out our common room on Facebook, our dedicated subreddit, Twitter and more.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, on Facebook just look for the Prancing Pony podcast, follow the page to get the news and the episode drops. But you're going to want to join the group to get involved in some.

[Sara]

Great discussions on Twitter, Instagram, BlueSky, Twitch, TikTok, and YouTube. We're rancingponypod or if you prefer, Reddit, find us there at R prancingponypod.

[Alan Sisto]

And if you want daily Tolkien content, check out today's Tolkien times on the PPP YouTube channel and on all your favorite podcast apps. My short format daily show with everything from Middle Earth Map Mondays to Fandom Fridays. And then there's my new twice weekly streaming of all fun things Middle Earth on the PPP plays. Be sure to check both of them out on the YouTube channel for all the PPP [e-mail] rancingponypod and now it's time to get back to the text. Sarah, would you pick up where I left off?

[Sara]

I would love to. When Elrond learned the choice of his daughter, he was silent, though his heart was grieved, and found the doom long feared none the easier to endure. But when Aragorn came again to Rivendell, he called him to him, and he said, my son, years come when hope will fade, and beyond them little is clear to me. And now a shadow lies between us. Maybe it has been appointed so that by my loss the kingship of Men may be restored. Therefore, though I love you, I say to you, Awen Undomiel shall not diminish her life's grace for less cause she shall not be the bride of any man less than the king of both Gondor and Arnor. To me then, even our victory can bring only sorrow and parting. But to you hope of joy for a while. Alas, my son, I fear that to Arwen the doom of Men may seem hard at the ending. So it stood afterwards between Elrond and Aragorn, and they spoke no more of this matter. But Aragorn went forth again to danger and toil. And while the world darkened and fear fell on Middle Earth as the power of Sauron grew and the Barad Dur rose ever taller and stronger Arwen remained in Rivendell. And when Aragorn was abroad from afar she watched over him in thought and in hope. She made for him a great and kingly standard such as only one might display who claimed the lordship of the Numenoreans and the inheritance of Elendil.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, wow. There is so much here to unpack. Going back to the very beginning, right. Elrond learns what happened. He doesn't. To his credit, he doesn't say anything after learning about her choice. And I also love, by the way, how the text makes it clear when Elrond learned the choice of his daughter. So again, we're just repeating that and it's really worth repeating. But of course he was deeply grieved. I mean, he now knows what's going to happen. He's going to be parted from his daughter forever. And even though he'd thought about this and was afraid that this might happen you know, this is a possible outcome maybe, arguably an even likely one. Doesn't make it any easier to face.

[Sara]

No, it doesn't. And it's totally understandable. You know, he's at some point and in the near future, extremely near future future for an elf, he's just never going to see his daughter again. That's got to be difficult.

[Alan Sisto]

It really, really is. I. I'm amazed that he was able to just be quiet about it, that he didn't talk about how much that was hurting. Yeah.

[Sara]

And when he speaks to Aragorn about it after Aragorn has made his way to Rivendell he does speak with kindness and grace but he also speaks with clarity of his high expectation. Expectations. She. He's not going to hand his daughter over to some bozo, you know, he's. He's only going to allow Arwen's light to diminish. To somebody who is king of both Aror and Gondor high expectations is right.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, you're not kidding.

[Sara]

And then he speaks of how his own ability to foresee is dimmed. That's really interesting, isn't it? Because we had all this foresight going on but his own now is dark, dimmed. Hope will fade, he says. And what happens after that is unclear. So much to unpack. And more than that there's now a shadow that exists between Elrond and Aragorn. What is this Shadow.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, you're taking my daughter from me. I mean, you know, and, and he still loves him. And I, I, I really admire how Elrond doesn't go full thingol here, you know?

[Sara]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And to his credit, of course, thingol eventually turns it around. But, you know, there is still the reality that even though he loves Aragorn, there is a thing between them. And that thing is, you're going to be removing my daughter from my life forever.

[Sara]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And from, from Calabrian, too. Like, you're going to make my move to the Undying Lands really, really awkward.

[Sara]

Yeah. That first meeting with Calabrian is not going to be happy, Happy. Joy, Joy.

[Alan Sisto]

No, it will not. I do think it's interesting, he goes on to point out that this might be an appointed thing, that this might be part of the music, that the point of this thing happening, the purpose of this would be to restore the kingship of men through his loss. I want to kind of talk through that a little bit. Remember, it was Elrond's own brother, Elros, who was the first true king of Men. The first king of Numenor. He's the one who led the Edain to their home in the West. That's Elrond's own brother. And the whole reason that he could do that is because of the Elvish blood in his ancestry through both Luthien and Idril. And that kingship, of course, eventually failed under Ar Pharazon. It was restored under Elendil in exile, but then it failed again when both Gondor and Arnor's kingships failed. Right. First, the death of Arvedui, who is the last king, not of Arnor, but of the last of the splinter kingdoms of Arthedain. And then, of course, the disappearance of Earnur, the last king of Gondor. So, wow. Through my loss, Elrond thinks that kingship that was my brother's may be restored.

[Sara]

And that is pretty huge, actually, because Elros also made a choice.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

Just like Arwen is making a choice. So poor old Elrond has had his twin brother make a choice that has separated them forever. And now his daughter will make a choice that will separate them forever. And it's the same choice.

[Alan Sisto]

It is the same choice. And yet his daughter's choice will lead to a restoration of the kingship that his brother made the choice to be able to obtain.

[Sara]

Right. Talk about Torn.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, man, this is heavy. This is heavy. No wonder he's in a bunch of pain. Like we said earlier, the fact that he still can say Though I love you. Right. He's still speaking truthfully to Aragorn as his son, right? I mean, he has raised this man. It is clear, like you said, there is a very high bar for Arwen to marry him. Like, okay, fine, you're betrothed, but you don't actually get married unless.

[Sara]

Yep. Not unless you succeed in becoming the king of the realms in exile United Gondor and Arnor.

[Alan Sisto]

That has not happened in a very long time. I mean, the last time Gondor and Arnor were united would have been the very brief time under Isildur's kingship for what, two years I think it was that he died in Third Age two. The kingship of Gondor itself, of course, did make it all the way to third age 2050 when Earnur disappeared. That's 930 years before Elrond is telling Aragorn this. But the kingship of Arnor ended even earlier. And that was third age 861 when Arindur died and Arnor got split into Rudaur, Cardalan and Arthodyne. That was more than 2100 years ago. So Elrond's not saying. So I've got this fairly simple task for you. He's setting the highest of bars.

[Sara]

Yes, it is the highest of bars. But you understand why.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yeah.

[Sara]

There's a lot at stake here.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, there is.

[Sara]

And also he doesn't want Aragorn to be distracted from that. You know, you're gonna have to focus on this. You focus on this for you, for the world, for the race of men. And then maybe you get Arwen at the end. But you gotta do this first because this is incredibly important.

[Alan Sisto]

It's the whole reason for why I'm even allowing why I'm even considering it question though. And this just came to me. I didn't even put this in my notes. We read earlier that her choice was made and her doom appointed when they were walking together before they even plighted their troth. If Elrond says you're not going to marry her unless you're the king of Arnor and Gondor does that have an impact on Arwen? Is Arwen able to sort of back out of that doom? Or is that doom already just done? Or is this just one of those choices that. I mean, like what happens to Arwen if he doesn't become the king of Gondor and Arnor? Is it too late?

[Sara]

That is a really tough question. And my head just exploded.

[Alan Sisto]

I know. Mine too. Because we haven't read it yet because it's later in this episode. But when Aragorn's on his deathbed, he says that our fate was made when we were in Cairne Amroth, which is already now in the past from this moment.

[Sara]

Yep, I know, I know. That is a huge question, one I hadn't even considered before.

[Alan Sisto]

Wouldn't that stink for Arwen? Like, I'm mortal now and I'm single. The guy I love is dead because he didn't get to be the king of Arnor and Gondor. And there's. There's only one way he's not going to become the king and that's if he gets killed doing. Trying to do it.

[Sara]

I wonder if they. They actually built in some kind of exception, subsection C kind of thing in.

[Alan Sisto]

The contract that says paragraph shall be null and void if the object of your love has died, you know, prematurely before the wedding.

[Sara]

It actually only becomes solid if a marriage takes place.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. This is sort of like a suspended sentence.

[Sara]

Yeah, gosh, yes. But actually, I really hope it's that way. Otherwise. Yikes.

[Alan Sisto]

No, that's so wrong. Sorry, no ship's gonna take you over here. Yeah, but he's dead. We never got. We never got married.

[Sara]

Oh, well, you know, you're doing that day too bad. Oops. Oh, my goodness, that's a terrible idea. Anyway, back to poor old Elrond who is still desperately upset because he points out that even the victory of the west against Sauron is going to be no cause for celebration for him because yay, Sauron, gone. I've lost my daughter. Yikes.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly.

[Sara]

Yeah. Because it can only bring separation between him and Arwen while it gives Aragorn a temporary joy. Hope of joy for a while.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

So, yeah, I mean, I lose my daughter forever, whereas you get this little breath of time, this tiny, tiny little blink, and it's even then it's only.

[Alan Sisto]

Hope of joy for a while.

[Sara]

Yes, because let's face it, not all marriages stay happy.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, certainly not all the time. Right? I mean, the, the idea.

[Sara]

Just ask Aldarion and Horrendous.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, yeah, exactly. Horrendous. Can. Can tell you all about that. Wow, that is a really interesting comparison. I mean, Elrond's like, look, I'm going to make a decision that's going to affect me forever. Your decision is going to affect you for 100 years.

[Sara]

200 years, you know, which to an Elf is nothing. Especially an Elf of the age of Elrond.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, I know he was there. Gandalf 3,000 years ago. And he was. He was already old then, you know.

[Sara]

I'm going to say he'd been around a few years by that point.

[Alan Sisto]

He had. All right. Wow. Yeah, That's a very interesting point coming back to the text, this prediction or foresight of Elrond where he says, look, this is going to be really hard for Arwen at the end. Spoilers. He's right. It's going to be really hard for the end. It's full of emotion as we read those last passages. And then it's time for him to go. Right. You don't have to go home, kid, but you can't stay here. You got to get out there and do your job. And by the way, we're not going to talk about this anymore. It seems like the first rule about being engaged to Arwen is you don't talk about being engaged to Arwen.

[Sara]

But he has a point.

[Alan Sisto]

He does. Look, it's. It's.

[Sara]

He has a point.

[Alan Sisto]

He doesn't need to talk about it anymore. The decision is made. She's chosen him. He's set the bar. Now it's your job, Aragorn, to go do it. You're not going to come back to me and get me to change the bar. I'm not going to lower it. And you now know what you have to do. I would prefer not to talk about it anymore because it hurts. I don't want to rip off that band aid every time I see you, you know.

[Sara]

Yep. So off you pop.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

And go do.

[Alan Sisto]

Go that Sauron thing. Go do it. Yeah.

[Sara]

Yes, exactly. And I get it. I get it that.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

After every one of these difficult conversations he's had with Aragorn about Arwen, there comes a point where Elrond is done. He's just done talking about it. He does not want to talk about it anymore because, by the way, happened last week, too.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

Yes, exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

When he was.

[Sara]

By the way, Aragorn, you have chisel to do. Get on your horse, mate, and get it done. And that's it. You know, we're done talking about it. We'll obviously have to talk about it again at a later date. But I'm not doing it now because that's correct. You might not actually achieve what you're setting out to achieve.

[Alan Sisto]

Talk to me when you're king of Gondor. Arnor.

[Sara]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Then we can have a conversation.

[Sara]

Yep. You know, I mean, Elrond is Elrond. I think he has the right to set the.

[Alan Sisto]

He can absolutely set the Bar as high as he wants. He's not trying to pull the old I'm just going to kill him without killing him thing. The thingol did the go get a Silmaril. Right, yeah. This is not that. This is go do this good thing that will free the world and unite the kingdoms of Gondor and Arnor again. The way they ought to have been, the way they ought to have stayed, had Isildur not engaged in this folly. And we get to that later as well. The whole idea about redressing the folly of Isildur.

[Sara]

Right, yes. And then we get this brief description of the intervening time. Sauron's power and influence increasing, Arwen staying in Rivendell watching over Aragorn in her thoughts, which is an intriguing idea. Just to what extent can she watch over him in her thoughts making a kingly standard, the one that we'll see Elladan and Elrohir deliver to him, the one that he will display as he comes up the Anduin to fight at the Pelennor after destroying the enemy at Pelagir.

[Alan Sisto]

I love that. I absolutely love that we see that standard happening now that she's starting to. But coming back to what you said about watching over him in her thoughts, that really actually does put me in mind of some of the stuff that Jackson did in the film trilogy where we see her sort of watching over him in her thoughts. I'm thinking particularly that sort of unnecessary scene where he goes and tumbles off the cliff and all of that. It's like, okay, you can't get the scouring of the Shire there, but you can have Aragorn unnecessarily fall off a cliff. Okay. But I get it because it gives us a chance to see Arwen watching over her. Or watching over him, I should say, in her thoughts.

[Sara]

Yes. Yeah. I mean, Jackson was doing the difficult thing that Tolkien gave up on, which was interweaving the tale of Aragorn and Arwen through the Lord of the Rings.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. To his credit, he brings in. The story that we talked about last week is very, very important to Tolkien into a film adaptation, which was going to be so hard to do, but he managed to pull it off and. Yeah, well, this spot where we get the very brief description of intervening time is a good spot to look back at the drafts to see how the story has developed. So going back to their engagement in the drafts, we read, and there upon that hill they looked east to the shadow and west to the twilight and they plighted their troth and were glad yet many years still lay between them. For when Elrond learned the choice of his daughter, he did not forbid it. That's an interesting change. And then the rest is pretty similar. But he said to Aragorn, not until you are come to your full stature shall you wed with Arwen and Domiel, and she shall not be the bride of any less than a king of both Gondor and Arnor. But the days darkened in Middle Earth as the power of Sauron grew. And in Mordor, the dark tower of Barad Dur rose ever taller and stronger. And though Aragorn and Arwen at times met briefly again, their days were sundered for the time drew on now to the War of the Ring at the end of that age of the world.

[Sara]

Mm. There's some interesting changes to note in here because first of all, there's nothing about them rejecting both the Shadow and the Twilight about Arwen's choice.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes. There's nothing here. Yeah. That's huge.

[Sara]

That is huge. Yeah. And there's also the interesting wording about Elrond. Not that he remained silent, but that he did not forbid Arwen's choice.

[Alan Sisto]

That's interesting.

[Sara]

Quite a change.

[Alan Sisto]

It is definitely quite a change. I mean, it suggests that he has the authority to say, sorry, Arwen, I know you've chosen, but I'm not going to allow it. I can't allow it. I will not allow it. Which then casts his decision to remain silent in the published version in an even better light. Because if he did, in fact, have that, it shows a willingness on his part to accept that sacrifice, accept that loss.

[Sara]

Yeah. But for him to forbid it would also completely negate Arwen's choice and agency.

[Alan Sisto]

Right. I mean, it kind of comes back to what we read with the Gil Rhine situation in the drafts, where initially it was that she didn't want to get married, not so much that she didn't want to get married to him, but that she didn't want to get married at all because she was so young. And then in the published version, we lost that. It was Deer Heil's opposition. And then she eventually consented to be wed. So we knew you had her choice there. And again, it was almost the reverse because in the published version, there it was the father wanting to forbid it and then the daughter finally saying, okay, whereas in the draft, it was the daughter saying, I don't want to do it, and then changing her mind.

[Sara]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Really interesting.

[Sara]

Really interesting. I think it's very important, though, that Tolkien made that change, because I think you're Right. Arwen has to have her agency here.

[Alan Sisto]

Especially because it relates to the nature of her FAEA at this point. Right. Her spirit. Because that choice is what then makes her mortal. She has to have a choice in that. Like, that can't be made for her. That choice has to be something she can only make in that draft version or that manuscript version. I should say the bit about the time drawing on now to the War of the Ring was greatly expanded. Christopher explains, there follows now a long passage, more than 500 words, in which the history of the war is given in summary. Now, later, he gives us not that very early manuscript version, but a typescript copy that gives us a lot of the history, as he says, in summary.

[Sara]

Now, Tolkien wrote, quote, it was the part of Aragorn as Elrond foresaw, to be the chief captain of the west and by his wisdom, yet more than his valor, to redress the past and the folly of his forefather Isildur.

[Alan Sisto]

And there's that line that I was thinking of earlier. It isn't in the published version. It's in that typescript version to redress the folly of his forefather Isildur. I know we've. I've always felt like Isildura gets blamed a lot. Right.

[Sara]

Yesildur.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm a big fan of the Disaster of the Gladden Fields. And the fact that Isildur realized this is beyond me. I got to take it to the Elves. Right. This was a mistake on my part. And that, to me is again, another opportunity for a Tolkien character to get redemption, is they all have the opportunity and Isildur takes the opportunity. But it was still folly to keep it in the first place. I mean, we acknowledge that. And I like that in this typescript version, we see that Elrond, just like Arwen, foresees that he is going to be the guy who takes down Sauron, who makes things right.

[Sara]

Yeah, Yeah, I do feel a bit sorry for Isildur. I mean, we can talk about Isildur's folly, but then in the same breath we say that Frodo didn't really fail because he could never truly actually with.

[Alan Sisto]

That's the thing you come into possession of that you can't do anything with it.

[Sara]

It's Right. And Isildur is under the same influence of the Ring, so. Yeah, folly. I get that. I actually think it took enormous strength for him to realize that this is not something he can do anything with. And he needed to two years in, too.

[Alan Sisto]

Right. I mean, that he's like, all right, we've got to get this to the. To the Elves. We can't. This is not something I can do. Now, we can have that speculative discussion when he gets there. Does he change his mind and say, I'm not going into Rivendell after all because I want to keep this ring? Yeah, maybe, maybe, maybe. But we were never faced with that. And instead we knew that as his men are dying around him in the disaster of the Gladden fields he says, this was a mistake. You know, I got to go. I got to get this to. To the Elves. I got to get this to Rivendell. And then he goes off and, you know, obviously he gets shot and he dies on the other side of the Gladden and the Rings or the other side of the Anduin. The Ring's gone. But you're right. The folly of Isildur. We can talk about it all day long. It's sort of like the bad choices of Turin. Some of them he may have had more agency to make and it should have made them better. But most of Turin's choices were made under the spell of Glaurung and under the curse of Morgoth and under the curse of Morgoth. And here, Isildur. Yeah, he probably shouldn't have picked up the Ring in the first place, but we know the ring can give you influence, can influence you even when you're not wearing it.

[Sara]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

So that's a tough call. I did like also the little wisdom versus valor thing. Why his wisdom yet more than his valor? It's not just that. Aragorn's a really good fighter. Six foot six with a one and a half hand sword that he's wielding. And picturing him, Eomer and Emrahil, untouched on the battle Pollenor. That. That moment we get there, sure, that's great, and I'm glad he has that. But it's his wisdom, right?

[Sara]

And I think that puts him in wonderful juxtaposition with Boromir.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, yes, it does. It really does. Because Boromir is all about the valor. Yeah, 100%. And nothing wrong with that.

[Sara]

He's a great soldier.

[Alan Sisto]

Absolutely nothing wrong with that. But it is his wisdom that is found wanting. And then, of course, there's another example of yet another time where the Ring gains influence over somebody who is not in possession of it.

[Sara]

Yes, it just finds their little weaknesses and wriggles its way in little chinks.

[Alan Sisto]

In the armor and just.

[Sara]

And the chink in Boromir's armor, of course, is his desire to protect his homeland. But also a lack of wisdom in that desire.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that's true. A little bit of a sort of a. What's the word I'm looking for? A narrow scope of vision. Right?

[Sara]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

He's just not able to imagine that there are other solutions outside of the military solution.

[Sara]

Yes, yes. And this is why his little brother Faramir is a greater man than Boromir.

[Alan Sisto]

And it is his wisdom indeed that makes Faramir so good.

[Sara]

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, we could sit and talk about Faramir all day.

[Alan Sisto]

And because we don't do anything halfway here, folks, let's read some of that summarized history of the War of the Ring. It's a great kind of CliffsNotes version. A great TLDR, really.

[Sara]

It really is. Okay, here we go. Thus the War of the Ring began and the shards of the sword of Elendil were forged anew. And Aragorn, Arathorn's son, arose and fulfilled his part and his valour and wisdom were revealed to men. Songs were made after in Gondor and Arnor concerning his deeds in that time which long were remembered but are not here full told. It was not his task to bear the burden of the Ring but to be a leader in those battles by which the eye of Sauron was turned far from his own land and from the secret peril which crept upon him in the dark. Indeed, it is said that Sauron believed that the Lord Aragorn, heir of Isildur, had found the Ring and had taken it to himself even as his forefather had done and arose now to challenge the tyrant of Mordor and set himself in his place.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, I love that. That is good stuff. I. I especially love that ending, of course, because we know that is exactly what Sauron thought. Right? He thought that Aragorn had the Ring. That was Aragorn's intent, looking at the palantir was to trick Sauron. Yes, but I want to go back. Songs were made which were long remembered but not are not here full told. Oh, like I want to know the songs.

[Sara]

I know, but it's. It's that wonderful idea, isn't it? That when somebody has done great deeds songs will be sung of those great deeds. And it's just this fantastic idea. It also takes us back in history to how it used to be.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Because that's how history was told, was in song.

[Sara]

Yes. Yeah. No, I really do love that. I wish we had some of those songs. That would be amazing.

[Alan Sisto]

There's so many times where Tolkien gives us these hints of things that exist. I want to know that story. I Want to know that?

[Sara]

Yes. Lots of gaps that could have been filled.

[Alan Sisto]

I know. With as much as he wrote. That's so astounding. I mean, that Christopher Tolkien has written a 12 volume edition of the history of Middle Earth and yet there are still gaps because you just can't in one lifetime cannot produce that much.

[Sara]

Right, right.

[Alan Sisto]

So I keep. I have to wonder like if he were alive today doing that, he wouldn't have to be a professor. You wouldn't have to be doing anything.

[Sara]

Other than writing, other than just doing this. Yes. And you'd have your own fan club and yeah, we'd be banging down the door. But I just asked George R.R. martin how well that's going for him. Huh.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. You'd have people come to your door, okay, can we adapt your stuff into television shows? And you're like, yeah, but then I want involved and yeah. Brings back to Rings of Power, doesn't it?

[Sara]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

And we'll stop there.

[Sara]

And we'll stop there. But what I wanted to come back to with this whole thing of the songs being made and stuff like that, this is actually very Tolkien because he keeps doing stuff like this in his texts where things like that are mentioned and then they're dropped, these textual ruins.

[Alan Sisto]

There's the phrase right there it is.

[Sara]

They are a glorious part of his, his world that just makes us so hard in the fact that this is a world that has been there for thousands and thousands and thousands of years. And in any world where that is the case, you cannot have every bit documented.

[Alan Sisto]

You really can't. That's the thing. I mean, there's always going to be some distant ridge of mountains that you cannot get to, you know?

[Sara]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

That are. They're there and you can see them and you can maybe make out a little bit, but you can't be there and experience that. And that's what the these songs are. They're like those things on the distant horizon that make you realize this world is big, it is full, it is complete. I just can't see it.

[Sara]

All right. Yes, it's a loss that is for sure, but it's also a marker that things once were. We know that these things once were. We just don't know them exactly. And we don't have the records of them, but we just know that they once were.

[Alan Sisto]

Yep. And even the things that we do know a little bit about, it's often some say, you know, it's still that uncertainty.

[Sara]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that. But real shout out to Michael D.C. drought, of course, for his thoughts on the idea of textual ruins because it's just a glorious part of the text.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, we. I've had to try to. Because we use that phrase a lot on the PPP and I try to always remember to credit Dr. Trout for that because that was not our idea. But we've had somebody be like, so what was that show where you guys talked about this idea of a textual ruin? And what a great phrase that was. I'm like, yeah, it is. It's not ours. Not me.

[Sara]

I wish I could claim it seriously.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. He did such a great job with that and with this idea of how so often our perspective in the books is through the eyes of the least knowledgeable person.

[Sara]

Yes, yes. Which of course means that we have to learn alongside them. It's the only way we get to understand. Understand what's going on.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that's why it's so often. Sam.

[Sara]

Oh, yes, yes. Before we move on, I really want to pick up on that last bit about how Sauron totally underestimates Aragon.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sara]

It's so important, isn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

He two dimensionalizes Aragorn. Well, Aragorn is only. He's got the ring. And the only thing he's going to do then is to try to defeat me and take my place. Not. Yes, he knows where the ring is and is going to actually try to destroy it. Like that doesn't even cross his mind.

[Sara]

Yeah, it doesn't at all. Because he cannot see how anybody either would want to destroy the ring or would have the strength to destroy the ring.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

And in that, yeah, Sauron is actually a closer. Yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, it took Iluvatar's intervention to destroy the ring.

[Sara]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Just a little. The finger of Iluvatar going. Just nudging Gollum up the air.

[Sara]

Bing. Yeah. But it is. I think it says a lot about Sauron as well that he totally underestimates Aragorn and that he makes massive assumptions about him and that is what leads to his downfall. Talk about a weakness.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, you're not kidding. That is a big weakness. That history is continued. And I'm going to read the next paragraph. And I love this. I love that he gives us this summary and it gives us just slightly different takes on everything that we know from the books. So he continues. But it was not so. And in this most did Aragorn reveal his strength. For though the ring came indeed within his grasp, he took it not and refused to wield its evil power, but surrendered it to the judgment of Elrond and to the bearer whom he appointed. For it was the hard counsel of Elrond that though their need might seem desperate and the time over, over late nonetheless, the ring should even now be taken in secret if it might be to the land of their enemy and there cast into the fire of Mount Doom in Mordor, where it was made. Aragorn guided the ring bearer on the long and perilous journey from Imladris in the north until he was lost in the wild hills and passed beyond the help of his friends. Then Aragorn turned to war and the defense of the city of Gondor, Minas Tirith upon Anduin the last bulwark of the Westlands against the armies of Sauron.

[Sara]

That tells you so much about Aragorn and who he is.

[Alan Sisto]

The ring came within his grasp. He took it not. We talked about this actually way back in Book one when Aragorn, when Strider first encounters the Hobbits. And I just remember reading a little bit of Paul Kocher's Master of Middle Earth where he talks about this and how the idea that Aragorn knew that someday this was likely to happen. He'd thought this through. He'd already dealt with the temptation. So it wasn't the massive temptation that it would have been to him when he faced it. Like, okay, I'm ready for this moment. I've been ready.

[Sara]

Even so, even knowing that the ring is a thing and even knowing that it's going to come within his grasp at some point to still have that inner strength to turn away from it how many opportunities to Aragorn have to take the Ring from Frodo?

[Alan Sisto]

As many as he wanted.

[Sara]

Exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, from all the way from the Prancing Pony all the way to Parth Gallen, you know, at any point he wanted.

[Sara]

Yep. But he kept making those choices.

[Alan Sisto]

And I think Frodo would have been willing to give it to him at just about any of those moments. I mean, he didn't volunteer it like he did with Galadriel but he almost did. Remember the council, he said, oh, then it's not mine at all. It's yours. It belongs to you. Thank God it's not mine, you know. Yeah, you're right. The strength that he has, especially given like this. History says that the need is desperate and the time over late, you know.

[Sara]

Right, right. And here I think we find another parallel between Aragorn and Faramir. Faramir is another one who has no desire for the Ring. Now, he doesn't get the same level of temptation because he's not in its proximity for as long, but he is in its proximity.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, very much.

[Sara]

He does not cut the Hobbit's throat and take the Ring for himself.

[Alan Sisto]

No.

[Sara]

Which he could have done.

[Alan Sisto]

He doesn't say, the Ring shall go to Gondor and have me sit in the movie theater, go, wow.

[Sara]

Gritting my teeth. Yes. Oh, they did, my boy. Faramir.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, I get it. It's all about. It's. It was all about empowering Sam and making Sam more important because he's the one who turns them around. But, yeah, obviously, Faramir, Aragorn. Really, really wonderful parallels there. Some of my favorite prose in the whole of the legendarium is the stuff that Faramir says to Frodo. You know, were I to find this thing by the side of the road and I alone could save Minas Tirith using this, I. No, no, no. Not going to do it. And. Yeah.

[Sara]

And therein lies his wisdom.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, exactly. Which is why he makes, you know, a perfect prince for King Elessar. Yeah.

[Sara]

Yes. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, that history goes on, doesn't it?

[Sara]

It does. Expanding on the idea of Arwen watching over Aragorn and weaving the standard, he adds, of that standard. And this she sent to him by the hands of his kinsfolk the last of the Dunedain of the Norn North. And they came upon Aragorn on the plain of Rohan after the battles in which Saruman the traitor was overcome and Isengard destroyed. And they delivered to Aragorn the standard of Arwen. And her message, for she bade him look to the peril from the sea and to take the paths of the dead. Now, this was a way beneath the White Mountains of Gondor that no man dared to tread because of the fell wraiths of the forgotten men that guarded it. But Aragorn dared to take that way with the Grey Company of the North. And he passed through and so came about by the shores of the sea unlooked for by foe or by friend. Thus he captured the ships of the enemy and came up out of the deep by the waters of Anduin to the succour of Gondor in the hour of its despair. For the city of Minas Tirith was encircled by the armies of Mordor and was perishing in flame. Then was fought and won beyond hope the great battle of the fields of Pelennor. And the lord of the Black Riders was destroyed. But Aragorn unfurled the standard of Arwen and in that day Men first hailed Aragorn as king.

[Alan Sisto]

That is glorious. What a great summary that is.

[Sara]

It is good.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, content wise, there's nothing there we don't already know. But I love how Tolkien puts this together as more than just and then there were these great events and the Third Age ended. You know, he does give us a summary. And I like how he really emphasizes the paths of the dead here that we get a lot more on this, specifically as it's related to the message that comes to him with the banner.

[Sara]

Like, okay, and it's the message that's so super important, isn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. It's reminding him of this prophecy that, you know, this is what you've got to do. And Tolkien really goes into just enough of that to remind us the Great Company's there with him. Which, again, I feel like that was another thing in the films I would have loved to have seen. I know impractical to have 30 Rangers and Eladan and Elro here as well, but just fantastic. But we get a reminder that these are the fel wraiths of the Forgotten Men. And then obviously, the fact that how he came to save the day in Gondor was by taking out the ships of the Corsairs of Umbar and coming up the Anduin with these ships, which.

[Sara]

He may not have known to do if they hadn't had the foresight of Arwen.

[Alan Sisto]

That's correct. That's correct. He didn't see them in the Palantir, for instance. He didn't know.

[Sara]

No. It was Arwen whose foresight actually warned him about what was to happen on the sea Peril.

[Alan Sisto]

From the sea.

[Sara]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So here again, we have foresight being used as part of the story.

[Alan Sisto]

And that's a real deal breaker right there. If he doesn't go that direction, Right. If he goes with Theoden to the Battle of the Pelennor from the north side, the Corsairs of Umbar come up from the south. They've wiped out the rest of Gondor. You know, because when you look at a map of Gondor, you realize that the stuff that we see in the books and obviously also in the films is really just a sliver of it. You know, we see Minas Tirith, we see a little bit of that land that connects from Rohan to Gondor in the north, that goes through Anorian. But the vast bulk of the land of Gondor is in the south. You know, it's. It's from the south of the White Mountains all the way to the Bay of Belegair. And it's all those fiefdoms that we get a little bit of a glimpse into in the chapter Minas Tirith, where they. They come in and basically the whole response is, wow, that's not very many. Wow, that's not very. Wow. They only sent how many? I mean, and they. They couldn't. They had to stay, you know, numbers behind because the Corsairs were threatening on the. On the coast, so.

[Sara]

Right. So they could only spare a certain number.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. If Aragorn goes with Theoden and everybody, that. It doesn't matter. It literally is a lost battle at that point. So. Yes, Arwen's foresight wins the day.

[Sara]

It does, yes. I think this kind of puts to rest one of the prevalent jests about Arwen, which is that all she does is sit at home and sew banners. And, you know, that's pretty myopic view. It does feel a lot like that, especially if you haven't read the appendices.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, yeah, that's the thing, right?

[Sara]

Yes. But I think what we get here is a sense of Arwen is behind the scenes. Yes. She's not at the forefront wielding a sword alongside Eowyn or anything like that, but she has her own part to play. And this is a. You know, she has a power of her own. And one of these powers is definitely this ability to have foresight when it comes to what is happening in the world and what Aragorn needs to do. So I think what we get here actually is an indication that Arwen is a little bit more important. Important than, you know, banner maker par excellence.

[Alan Sisto]

I agree. 100. And she's. I think this also gives us a reminder of the importance that Tolkien put on this story. You know, we've talked before about how he really wanted to get this into the narrative somehow. The letter that we read last week about how it's the most important story in the appendices, and he really struggled with it. We've talked a little bit about what Christopher has said in the History of Middle Earth about how he changed the story here and there based on where he was going to try to put it, because earlier it was going to be in the Annals of the Kings, you know, talking about when the hobbits go up and visit him in Numinous and then transition immediately to this guy was the grandfather of the king, and then tell the story. He really wanted to get this in there.

[Sara]

Yes. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And I think the reason he wanted to get it in there partly is because of the importance of Arwen to the story.

[Sara]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Because otherwise just somebody sitting at home making banners.

[Sara]

Yes, because otherwise it's easy to make that judgment, actually, that Arwen is the one that has the least agency of all the female characters in the story. And that does feel a little unfair.

[Alan Sisto]

That's fair. You got a good point. And I understand why more casual readers would come to that conclusion. Like you said, if you don't read the appendices or if you read the appendices, but you don't dive deep and get into some of this extra stuff from the history of Middle Earth and the manuscripts, you don't realize quite how much Tolkien was trying to put on Arwen's shoulders.

[Sara]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

She carries it. Yeah, absolutely.

[Sara]

Yeah. Yeah. Which is one of the good things, I suppose, we were mentioning about the Jackson films, that he does actually try and weave the tale of Aragorn and Arwen. And yes, of course there's an agenda behind that. I mean, how can you have the great Hollywood love there unless you have, you know, one half of them actually making an appearance.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. Paying all this money for Liv Tyler and all she does is show up in the last scene. Yeah, it's not gonna work.

[Sara]

Barely worth that costume. Yeah. I mean, we could sit here and argue about how successful Jackson was in doing it because some of those scenes are a little bit silly.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. The one where she sort of envisions Eldarion is the one that, you know, she sees her kid running around in her like. And yeah, the whole thing with. With Elrond and yeah, that's a little.

[Sara]

Bit too much foresight. And yes, it doesn't always work, but I can understand why Jackson did it. And I can applaud his attempt to at least weave Arwen's story throughout.

[Alan Sisto]

Definitely. I mean, that's the thing. I applaud the intent. Even just like when we talked about with Rings of Power Wrap up, I applauded the intent to bring in Tom Bombadil. I'm not going to talk about the effectiveness of it, but I applaud the effort. Just like here. I'm grateful that he brought in the appendices. Yeah.

[Sara]

Yes, I agree. I agree.

[Alan Sisto]

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[Sara]

Okay, so shall we move on to the next section?

[Alan Sisto]

We shall. After a few years, Gilrain took leave of Elrond and returned to her own people in Eriador, and lived alone. She seldom saw her son again, for he spent many years in far countries. But on a time when Aragorn had returned to the north, he came to her, and she said to him before he went, this is our last parting. Estelle, my son, I am aged by care, even as one of lesser men, and now that it draws near, I cannot face the darkness of our time that gathers upon Middle Earth. I shall leave it soon. Aragorn tried to comfort her, saying, yet there may be a light beyond the darkness, and if so, I would have you see it and be glad. But she answered only with this one. And Aragorn went away, and heavy of heart, Gilrain died before the next spring. Thus the years drew on to the War of the Ring, of which more is told elsewhere, how the means unforeseen was revealed, whereby Sauron might be overthrown. And how hope beyond hope was fulfilled. And it came to pass that in the hour of defeat Aragorn came up from the sea and unfurled the standard of Arwen in the battle of the Fields of Pelennor. And in that day he was first hailed as king. And at last, when all was done he entered into the inheritance of his fathers and received the crown of Gondor and scepter of Arnor. And at midsummer, in the year of the fall of Sauron he took the hand of Arwen Undomiel and they were wedded in the City of the Kings.

[Sara]

Can I just say how beautiful that reading of the Elvish was?

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, thank you. Because it's not Quenya. My strength is Quenya, not Sindarin. So I'm glad I nailed it.

[Sara]

No, it was lovely.

[Alan Sisto]

It is a beautiful piece. I mean, it's so. I want more linods. I want more examples of this poetry.

[Sara]

Oh, yes, for sure. Now, I like how in this final version we set aside the history of the War of the Ring summarizing it even more tightly in the final paragraph very tightly in favor of a section in. Includes Gilrain which, of course, is where this whole story started last week. It's lovely to have a little bit back with her even though it's the sadness of parting and, you know, I want to talk about that parting with Kilraen there in relation to the parting that Elrond will have to have. We don't know precisely when she left Rivendell to go back to her kin but it's a few years after 2980 and she didn't see Aragorn often afterwards. He's a bit busy doing errantry and things. And she, of course, is no longer in Rivendell. So he doesn't.

[Alan Sisto]

I've got errantry to run.

[Sara]

He's got.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, we talk about chores and errands. No, it's chores and errantry.

[Sara]

But every time I see that word errantry, of course I just think of the poem which is very silly.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, it is. It's got that little sing songy rhythm to it. I love it. Oh, man. Yeah, he's. I'm just a bit busy, you know, going after Sauron and all that.

[Sara]

Yeah, just, you know, a little hobby of mine.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. Then we learned that in 3006. And we'll get to the inference that. I know that it's 3006. We'll get to that in a minute. When Aragorn would have been 75 years old. So that's more than a decade before the War of the Ring, he comes to see her. And commensurate with her gift of foresight, which again is in the family, she plainly said this was their final goodbye, as she once again called him Estelle.

[Sara]

And not just because he's a rolling stone, but because she's getting up there in years. And she says she's aged by care. She knows it's soon time to leave Middle Earth. And specifically she says, I cannot face the darkness of our time.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh. Oh, this is heavy, isn't it?

[Sara]

I mean, it really is.

[Alan Sisto]

She's not aged. It's the way she puts it. Right. I'm aged by care, like the lesser men. Right?

[Sara]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm not so old yet that I should be dead physically. I'm aged because of care, because of worry, and this is beyond my ability to take. I just cannot face what's coming.

[Sara]

Yes. It seems to have cut her life short, all of this, because she was. Yeah, she was off the Dunedi and she should have lived a little longer than this, but she just. It's like she can't.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. It seems really deeply tied to. Well, to the words of the Lynott, which we'll get to the translation of that in a little bit. But it really does speak to an emptiness. Like, her tank is empty. She's done. She's got no more left.

[Sara]

Yes. It's really sad, actually, is that.

[Alan Sisto]

It really is.

[Sara]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Ooh. In a way, I'm stricken with another comparison. Not to compare Feanor and Aragorn, but I can't help comparing Miriel here and how she poured everything she had into Feanor, leaving nothing for herself. Wow. We definitely get that here, don't we?

[Sara]

We really do. And what a different choice is made by the sun.

[Alan Sisto]

And speaking of the sun. Right. The one that she names Estelle here, Aragorn Hope himself. Estelle tries to encourage her. Right. There might be light past that darkness. I know, mom, it's dark and it's getting darker, but there could very well be light. I would love for you to see it and to experience that joy. I think what we're seeing here, I don't want to. I'm not blaming Gil Rhine for feeling the way she is, but we're definitely seeing a hope versus despair moment.

[Sara]

Yeah. And that's awful, isn't it? Because, I mean, we have Gandalf's words that despair is only for those who see the end.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Beyond all doubt.

[Sara]

Yeah. And also we have our example of the one who totally succumbs to despair in denethor.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yeah, 100%.

[Sara]

And you don't want to compare Gil Rhine to Denethor.

[Alan Sisto]

I wonder if this is more an example of just pure absence of hope. I mean, I don't know, because we've had this discussion on the show a number of times, and I'm not sure whether I've had it with you yet or not. Sean and I. And then I eventually kind of worked this out with Matt as well. We talked about this idea of hope and despair not being as despair at zero and hope at 10, but despair at like negative 10, that you've got zero in the middle, which is hopeless, but isn't despairing yet. And therefore you can be without hope and yet not be in despair. And I wonder if this might be an example of that. Now that I think about it, maybe she's explicitly out of hope. She definitely says that she's out of.

[Sara]

Hope, but she seems to be just out of everything. I don't think she even has the energy to despair.

[Alan Sisto]

No, I think you're right. She's just done. Like this is. I've got nothing left at all in anything. I can't pour an emotional or even mental decision into what I'm going to do. I just know that I'm so tired. My life is going to be over.

[Sara]

And this is where I think you're right. I think there's a greater parallel with Miriel than there is with Denethor.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

Because Miriel was just done. She was so exhausted, there was nothing left. Whereas Denethor takes it to the nth and he actually kills himself.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. And chooses to try to kill his own son too, for that matter.

[Sara]

Yes. So that, I think, is where despair is a more active thing.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

And I don't think that either Gilrain.

[Alan Sisto]

Or merely the absence of hope.

[Sara]

Right. Yeah. You have to actually be doing something when you're despairing. You have to act on it. Whereas I think Gil Rhine and Miriel, they're just absolutely out of everything. They're out of puff. There's nothing left.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. That's a sad place to be, but at least it's not despair. You're right.

[Sara]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I think that active nature is an important distinction.

[Sara]

Yeah, I think so. I mean, you know, I'm. I'm reading it only from my own thoughts and my own experience. And there may be others out there who have other thoughts and experience of how that works for them.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

But thinking about it textually, that's Why I see Gilrein as closer to Miriel than to Denethor.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, well, there's a lot there with the Miriel thing. I wish I'd thought of that, you know, as I was drafting the notes here. It would have been good to maybe pull up some of the stuff from Miriel, but maybe we can do that in the P5. Speaking of the P5, we'll probably also go a little more in depth in that on this next point, but I want to talk a little bit about what the text calls a Linnod. There's nothing in the primary works that explains what a Lynnod is, but there's a book called Tolkien's Essays on the History of Middle Earth. And in that book there's an article by Patrick Wynn and Carl F. Hostetter called Three Elvish Verse Modes. And in this essay we learn a lot about the form of a Lindnod, as well as the etymology of the Sindarin word. And it comes from Sindarin, lind, meaning song or chant, singing like Lindon. Right. The land of the singers, along with Odo, which means seven. That's actually the same root that we see in Osiriand, the land of the seven rivers. And that seven is because the meter consists of a line that has two identical seven syllable halves. So if we go back to reading it, in Sindarin, it says one. So there's seven syllables, Ucheben, estel, anim, seven. So that's how a linode is structured. Hopefully we'll get into some more word nerd around this in the P5, but I just want to at least give you a little bit of a teaser for what that's what that's all about.

[Sara]

And this particular linode is translated for us directly in the footnote. It means, I gave hope to the Dunedain. I have kept no hope for myself. I think it's really important to note that the first hope there is capitalized, but the second one is not.

[Alan Sisto]

And it's clearly, I've given Aragorn, I've given Estelle to the Dunedain, but I don't have any hope left for myself. It's the emptiness that you just talked about. Maybe not so much the presence of despair, but the utter absence of hope. No fuel to face this challenge ahead of her. The darkness that's coming.

[Sara]

Why do you think Gil Rhine is that emptied out? I mean, I know that obviously she has suffered loss. You know, Arathorn dies when Aragorn is still very tiny. Yeah, but she's lived among the elves and she's been taken care of. And her son was around for a goodly bit of time before he went off on his errantrying.

[Alan Sisto]

29 years he was gone.

[Sara]

Yes, it just. It's interesting that she is that emptied out by life.

[Alan Sisto]

I wonder how much of this is related to the fact that she has left Riven Rivendell. She left and went back to her people, which I understand. I mean if Aragorn's gone off to do his thing and fight Sauron and try to become the king of Gondor and Arnor she knows that's a very long term project. Probably not going to be around for that. So I'll go back to my people. I have to wonder would she have been able to hold on to a little bit of hope had she stayed in Rivendell under the protection of the Ring and of Elrond's ring?

[Sara]

It's an interesting decision to have gone back to her people because there was more chance of seeing Aragorn if she'd stayed in Rivendell.

[Alan Sisto]

Much more. Much more chance you'd imagine. Especially since that's where Arwen is. I wonder if the decision to become betrothed to Arwen had anything to do with it. You, my son, who've made this thing that this decision that I told you a long time ago you should not be making. She's too high for you. And she's also of elf kind and mortal kind should not she advised against this. There might be a bit of. I disapprove of this relationship. So I'm just going to go away. I don't know.

[Sara]

It's a very extreme reaction.

[Alan Sisto]

That would be a very extreme reaction. But yeah, maybe.

[Sara]

And I can't imagine Elrond has evicted her from.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh no, no, no. Elrond has certainly, I'm sure probably tried to talk her into staying, you know, but. Because if this was a few years after that decision she would have already been old. Maybe not 100 like she is now or she's 99 now. Next spring she dies at the age of 100. But yeah, man, this is. This is tough.

[Sara]

It is sad. It is really sad actually. I was just thinking along the lines of how, you know, Aragorn is losing his mother parting from his mother forever. Wonder if that makes him understand Elrond a little bit better.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I would think it would at least enable him to have a bit more empathy. I also wonder because he speaks to Arwen and talks about how beyond the circles of the World, there is more than memory. So I feel like he is saying goodbye. But he also knows there is. Well, knows is a strong word. He also believes there is a likelihood of being reunited after death beyond the circles of the world.

[Sara]

Of course, that requires Estelle.

[Alan Sisto]

But that. Exactly, that requires Estelle. And it's just another example of that. But I do think you're right that at least this experience of parting for what is physically the last time would give him an ability to sort of step into Elrond's shoes and understand, maybe.

[Sara]

Empathize a little bit.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Still, he goes away sad, doesn't he?

[Sara]

Well, yes. Yes, he does. Understandably so because he's been told by his mother and, you know, he's now heard so many instances of foresight from his mother, from Arwen, from Elrond that he's, you know, he's less likely to sit there and go, for goodness sake, Mother, don't be silly.

[Alan Sisto]

Stop foreseeing. Yeah, that's true. Don't be silly. And I also wonder. I think there's got to be a little bit of. I don't want to use the word guilt here but imagine you are Aragorn. You are Estelle. You grew up with the name Estelle, meaning hope. And your mom says, I gave you to the Dunedain. I have kept no hope for myself. You feel an obligation, a responsibility that you are, in some ways, almost like it's your fault, you know? I would feel that way, I think. And, I mean, I'm sure Feanor didn't. Oh, yeah. Mom put everything into me because that's that. Because I'm worth it. Yes, but Aragorn would never think that way.

[Sara]

No.

[Alan Sisto]

And certainly he does not want to see her hopeless. Right. And his whole thing is there could be light beyond this. He doesn't say there will be. He says there might be. And I would have you see it and be glad. He's always optimistic, always hopeful. I think that seeing her lose all of that hope it's not just that this is the last parting it's that they're parting with her being hopeless.

[Sara]

Yeah. That's got to be so sad. I mean, one of the reasons why we go out into the world and we do the things we do is for the people that we love. Right. Especially Aragorn here. Yes. He's got this doom that is laid upon him, this fate, you know, he's. He has to reunite the kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor get rid of Sauron and then by Saturday have everything Sorted out in Minas Tirith. He's got a lot on his plate but, you know, he's not just looking at the wider world and what it needs. He's also thinking of certain people and how he can actually make the world better. And it's natural, even for a great leader like Aragorn to be thinking of his mother and their people, the Dunedain and Elrond, his almost father and Arwen, his love. And people like that. When we go out to fight for big things, we also fight for small things.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, it's those small things that drive us, isn't it? I mean, those are the things. Because you can't wrap your head around the concept of the nation or. Or the people. But you can easily imagine and picture your beloved or your mother or your father or your close friends. I mean, that's always the motivating factor for people who are put in a position to have to make a sacrifice. And to do that, to fight in battle or to do other very difficult.

[Sara]

Things you have to have something tangible that you're fighting for. And fighting for the world is not all that tangible.

[Alan Sisto]

It's too vague, it's too ethereal. Yeah, it's like the Shire represents for the Hobbits. They're not fighting for the whole world. They're fighting for the Shire.

[Sara]

They're fighting for the Shire. Yes, and that's natural. And, you know, the fact that it saves the world is a side benefit in some ways.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. And Sam. I mean, Sam might be saying, oh, the Shire, but when he says the Shire, he really just means Hobbiton Bywater. I mean, we know he thinks that. Maggots. Farmer maggots. Like an outsider in any. What is certainly the. The Bucklanders of the Marish, or, you know, all those people are queer. They're really weird out there. But, you know, he's just thinking about the Cotton family, basically. Like, whatever it takes, man. Yeah, and that's the thing here. Aragorn is, like you said, thinking about the people that he loves. And his mother is one. And. And this is hard. The Tale of Years tells us she died in 3007. So once again, thank you to the Tale of Years in Appendix B. That is how we've surmised that this conversation took place in 3006 because she died before the following spring. So arguably, it could have happened very early in 3007, like when it was still winter. But realistically, it happened he probably wasn't traveling to the north in the winter, but. So it must have happened the previous year, so 3006. But that also means, because we know that she was born in 2907, that she lived to be 100 years old, which is relatively young for somebody.

[Sara]

It is for her people. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that I think, doubles the sadness for Aragorn because he could have expected to have his mother around for a little bit longer.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Maybe long enough to see the wedding, maybe, you know, to perhaps even be around for the birth of her first grandchildren.

[Sara]

Right, yeah. Which is when the world is all set to rights and everything is as it should be. Of course, when you can actually stop and have a wedding and produce a song and all that kind of thing.

[Alan Sisto]

As he does the stuff. The light past the darkness that he would have wanted her to see and be glad.

[Sara]

Right, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

That is sad.

[Sara]

And then we get the summary of the summary that we read in the previous section.

[Alan Sisto]

The TL Doctor of the TL Doctor, no doubt.

[Sara]

Exactly. Along with Tolkien's nod to having to shorten the story, of which more is told elsewhere.

[Alan Sisto]

In this case, it actually is told elsewhere. So that's good. Yeah.

[Sara]

One of these textual ruins, and this one concludes with More Than Men hailing Aragorn as king, though.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. The previous summary just says, you know, that was when men first hailed him as king. But here we actually get the coronation, Right. We get the crown, we get the scepter, we get the wedding, which is at Midsummer. Which brings us right back to that Midsummer's Eve in Lorien when they plighted their troth 39 years before it was a long engagement.

[Sara]

39 years, yikes.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, that makes Eldarion and Arendus even, you know, look like they're not unreasonably paced. But, you know.

[Sara]

Yeah, I mean, 39 years to Arwen is nothing. But even for a long lived man like Aragorn, that's still a chunk of time.

[Alan Sisto]

That is very much a chunk of time. And at last, when all was done, he entered into the bar of his fathers and received the mailbag of the North. Goodness me, Sara, what does Bartleman have for us tonight?

[Sara]

Okay, well, I don't know how I follow that really grave entrance.

[Alan Sisto]

You just pretend it didn't happen. That's really the best thing to do.

[Sara]

Oh, so normal then.

[Alan Sisto]

Wow, brutal. Yes, normal.

[Sara]

Okay, so the question we have tonight is the tale of Aragorn and Arwen is only in the appendices.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes.

[Sara]

If it is so important, why is it not in the text? But also why even bother having it in the appendices at all. What is the point of it? What does it really add to the story of the Lord of the Rings? Why can't we just ignore it?

[Alan Sisto]

If it's in the appendices, then it must not be important. And if it was important, it would have put it in the story and therefore why do we even need to know about it at all? Yeah, yeah, that's a good question. Or good set of questions. So in letter 181, which is a compilation of drafts that he'd written to Michael straight, he's talking about. Well, he's talking about a lot of things. It's a really, really good letter in the paragraph at the end where he's talking about there not being an embodiment of the Creator anywhere in the story that is ERU iluvatar doesn't physically, you know, like he's not there. He talks about Gandalf being a created person and he's talking about the wizards and their role and the Valar and all of this. So he's kind of getting big picture because of course none of this was published, right? There was no Silmarillion, no unfinished tales. And he talks about how the situation became worse by Saruman's fall. The good were obliged to greater effort and sacrifice. This is interesting because it transitions from Gandalf to Aragorn and Arwen. So I'm going to read the rest of the letter from here. Thus Gandalf faced and suffered death and came back, or was sent back, as he says, with enhanced power. But though one may be in this reminded of the Gospels, that was the question that Michael Strait was asking, Tolkien explains. It is not really the same thing at all. The incarnation of God is an infinitely greater thing than anything I would dare to write here. I am only concerned with death as part of the nature, physical and spiritual, of man and with hope without guarantees. That is why I regard the tale of Arwen and Aragorn as the most important of the appendices. It is part of the essential story and is only placed so, meaning, only in the Appendices because it could not be worked into the main narrative without destroying its structure, which is planned to be hobbitocentric. That is primarily a study of the ennoble or sanctification of the humble. That is really the starting point for the answer to those questions, isn't it?

[Sara]

Yes. Yeah. And I feel that we might have to return to that letter. When we look at the end of the tale of Aragorn and Arwen, we Will. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

When we look at Aragorn's own passing and then Arwen's decision at that point to do the same thing, to lay down her life. Right. To be like, okay, I'm done now too. Wow. I mean, yeah, this is hope without guarantees. But death as part of the nature of what it means to be human.

[Sara]

Those are huge thoughts.

[Alan Sisto]

Those are huge thoughts. And I think, you know, next week when we finish this story, we're probably going to have to tap into the afterbath, I think, to talk about some of those big thoughts of what man, as a race kind of believed about their own fate, their own existence, their own nature, what happens to them after death. Because that's going to be super relevant for Aragorn and his decision. But realizing that Arwen didn't know any of that.

[Sara]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Arwen would not have necessarily ever had reason to study that. We know that she thinks about the Numenoreans, that she once thought of them basically as a bunch of idiots, and now she pities them. We'll get to that next week through tears in our eyes, I have no doubt.

[Sara]

Probably.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, just reading the text, previewing it as I'm putting together the notes, it's sort of like I start to get a little emotional because that's some heavy stuff. But this, I mean, it was so important to Tolkien. He wanted it in the main story. So that's the thing I would say is understand it's only in the appendices because he couldn't figure out how to put it in the main story without destroying the hobbit centered nature of the Lord of the Rings. And he'd be right.

[Sara]

He'd be right about that.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, it is a hobbit centered story.

[Sara]

Has to be right. I mean, I can't think of any way in which naturally somebody would sit down and tell the Hobbits this story, because that doesn't make any sense. And it could only happen at the end anyway because the whole thing comes to an end with the death of Aragorn and Arwen. So it just. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

As we'll learn next week, I think Christopher Tolkien suggests that this might very well have been what initially Tolkien intended to end the story with was the death of Aragorn and Arwen. That would have put a damper on the story. I like the way the story ends.

[Sara]

Yes. I think it's sad enough that Frodo sails off into the west, never mind.

[Alan Sisto]

Having the death of Aragorn Ravens just brings tears to my eyes every time. But Imagining it ending with this. There have been a couple different things that Tolkien thought about. I mean, we know from the beginning of this season that I did with Don. We know that he considered the epilogue to be something pretty seriously, that he was playing with the idea of it ending with the epilogue, with this Sam and Eleanor conversation, which fits with the meta narrative of the way the book got to us. And so that would maybe make a little bit more sense. But this was such an important story to him. So important. I mean, like he calls it, it's part of the essential story.

[Sara]

Yes. Because apart from anything else, here we have the confrontation with death and mortality that is so significant to the entirety of the legendarium. And yes, it comes at the end of their story, but it also is woven throughout because Arwen must make a choice, and she makes that choice earlier on in their story, and then that choice becomes real at the very end of it.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, it really does.

[Sara]

But also, I want to point back to what we were talking about earlier, about Arwen and the banners and things like that, and how it's easy to dismiss her as simply stays at home sewing banners.

[Alan Sisto]

Just a little seamstress making some flags.

[Sara]

Exactly. Unless we have this full tale of Aragorn and Arwen, we don't really get a full picture of who she is and why Aragorn would want to be with her, considering the significance of Aragorn as well.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, it's true. She's not just a pretty elf, mate.

[Sara]

Right. And also, there haven't been that many stories of a human male and a Elven female coming together in a good way and it being significant to the story. You know, I'm leaving the rapey one to one side. That's kind of off to the side. But we have two War and Idril. We have Beren and Luthien. We have Aragon and Arwen. Those are the three main ones. Right. Aragorn has to be worthy of Arwen. Arwen must also be worthy of Aragon, because these two coming together, like Tuor and Idril, like Beren and Luthien, they're significant points in the history of Middle Earth.

[Alan Sisto]

Deeply significant. I mean, Aragorn is certainly the greatest man of the Third Age for certain.

[Sara]

Right. And Arwen is the Evenstar of her people.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Yeah. So like you said, we never think about it as Arwen needs to be worthy of him too. But she does. And the fact that she is, I mean, she's not just a pretty elf who looks like Luthien. She is herself wise and gifted. But you're right. We don't get that unless we read this.

[Sara]

Right? Because it just doesn't make sense for Aragorn to, you know, put everything on marrying this elf just because it's, you know, a beautiful elf. That's all.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm a king. I should have a really pretty wife, you know, or I'm gonna be a king.

[Sara]

Yeah. Yes. And I will aspire to, you know, the most beautiful betroth for the job.

[Alan Sisto]

You want, not for the job you have.

[Sara]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it might sound a little bit daft to say that Aragorn and Arwen must be evenly matched considering one of them is an elf and the other one is a, you know, mortal, human, male. But it is important, actually.

[Alan Sisto]

They've got to at least be sort of, you know, in the same general vicinity.

[Sara]

Yeah, right. In terms of creating that really hugely significant moment in Middle Earth history. You know, I mean, Tuor and Idril, when you look at what fragment of their story we have, we don't dismiss Idril as being nothing. She is the one who makes all the plans for the defense of the city and then organizes the digging of the tunnels and then organizes the, you know, the evacuation of the refugees. She's important. She's powerful in her own right.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, she absolutely is. That's a very good point. And Luthien, the one who rescues Beren on multiple occasions, I mean, she definitely shows that. And that's at the risk of going too far afield. That's very much how Tolkien seems to write his important women as being of slightly higher station and of higher value than the men who marry them. That's not only the case of Baron and Luthien, Aragorn and Arwen and Tuar, Idril, but you can even think of Thingol and Melian as well, where, you know, they're always marrying up. But they're not just marrying up in the sense of a mortal marrying an Immortal or Thingol and Elf marrying a Maia. They're marrying up in terms of the achievements and the inherent nobility, not bloodline nobility, but inherent amazing powers that these women have. I do think there's. There's something there to that in terms of how Tolkien, you know, because we can criticize his. The. The lack of women in his writings a lot, but the ones that he does write are pretty damn impressive.

[Sara]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, and. And Arwen is that, but again, only if you read it in the appendices. And that's why it's so important to get there, because she is otherwise just this pretty girl who sews, you know, standards and banners and then turns up.

[Sara]

Too married at the end.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, exactly. Not much to her in that. Yeah, good point and good question. Well, folks, that wraps it up for another episode of the Prancing Pony Podcast. But please be sure to come back next week when we actually conclude our story of Aragorn and Robert. I know we said we were going to earlier, then we realized, you know what? I don't think we're going to finish it this week, but how about next week?

[Sara]

That's okay. You just get extra us.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Take that for what it's worth, folks.

[Sara]

Exactly. I'm not sure whether to apologize for that or celebrate.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. Sign the disclaimer. Get more of us.

[Sara]

Alan and I want to thank the members of Team PPP editor Jordan Rannells, Barleyman, Becca Davis, social media manager Casey Hilsey, Event and Patreon, community coordinator Katie McKenna, graphic artist Megan Collins, and website guru Phil Dean.

[Alan Sisto]

And please take a minute to check out the Prancing Pony Pod podcast dot com. It's where you're going to find our show notes, our outtakes, Prancing Pony ponderings, and our online storefront where you can get PPP merch with all the cool episode artwork that Megan's been doing now for two and a half years.

[Sara]

You'll also want to visit our library page. The Prancing Pony Podcast is, after all, a podcast about the books. So if you're interested in a book we've mentioned on the show, you'll find a link for it in our library. And we do get a small amount of compensation when you make your purchase. And we thank you for that.

[Alan Sisto]

Indeed we do. We also want to thank our patrons at the Curedance contribution tier. I'll start with Demay in Alaska, Chad in Texas, Lance in New Jersey, Joseph in Michigan, Kathy from North Carolina, Carlos in California, Brian in the uk, Jerry from Washington, Joe in Washington, Irwin from the Netherlands, Ben in Minnesota, Anthony in Texas, Zaksu in Illinois, Sarah in New Jersey, Joshua in Massachusetts, Lucy in Texas, Keith in Alabama, Erica in Texas, and Vivian in California.

[Sara]

There's also James in Massachusetts, Ann in Kentucky, Sean in New Jersey, Mason in California, Maureen from Massachusetts, Olivia in London, Robert in Arizona, Nick in Wisconsin, Lewis in South Carolina, Thomas in Germany, Craig in California, Bailey in Texas, Kevin in Massachusetts, Julie in Washington, Bruce in California, Joe in Maryland, Nathan in Arizona, and Kevin in Pennsylvania. Thank you all so very much for your support.

[Alan Sisto]

Indeed. Thank you very much.

[Sara]

Now, make sure you don't miss any episodes of the Prancing Pony podcast. Subscribe now through Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or your favorite podcast app.

[Alan Sisto]

And one last thing. As always, don't forget to send your thoughts, comments, and most of all, how you'd have managed to get this story into the Lord of the Rings to [e-mail] and if you want your voice.

[Sara]

Literally heard, well, just send us an audio of your question. Visit podinbox.com prancingponypod and record your question for us. And please be sure to still email the question to Barleyman, though.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, even though Barleyman's been a lot more reliable lately, there's still a lot of mail to sort through. We'll try to get to you just as soon as we're able. As always. Always, though, this has been far too short a time to spend among such excellent and admirable listeners.

[Sara]

But until next time, however, Farewell, friends.