368 – If You Leave Me Now

Summary

The Prancing Pony Podcast: Episode 368 – If You Leave Me Now

Release Date: April 20, 2025

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Introduction

In episode 368 of The Prancing Pony Podcast, hosts Alan Sisto and Sara Marchese delve deep into the poignant tale of Aragorn and Arwen as narrated in J.R.R. Tolkien's Appendix A. This episode marks a significant exploration of themes such as mortality, love, and loss within the Middle-earth legendarium. Through insightful discussions and thoughtful analysis, Alan and Sara unravel the complexities of Aragorn and Arwen's farewell, drawing parallels with other notable narratives in Tolkien's works.

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Revisiting the War of the Rohirrim Film Adaptation

Before immersing themselves in the heart-wrenching story of Aragorn and Arwen, Alan and Sara revisit the recently released War of the Rohirrim film. They critique its adaptation choices, particularly the focus on Hera, a character whose narrative was scarcely developed in Tolkien's original texts.

Sara's Defense of Tolkien’s Portrayal of Women: Sara passionately counters longstanding criticisms that label Tolkien as a misogynist. She emphasizes that Tolkien's female characters, though fewer in number, are profoundly impactful and well-crafted.

Sara [02:18]: "I'm not saying anything. Folks, pull up a bench in the common room and join us."

Sara [06:17]: "Galadriel is older than Elrond, has seen a heck of a lot more... I think we can. I think we should put that to bed, frankly."

Discussion on Female Characters: The hosts highlight exemplary female figures like Eowyn, Galadriel, and Olwen, underscoring their strength, agency, and complexity.

Sara [07:42]: "Well written female character is one that is well rounded, three dimensional, actually has agency... sometimes they go through all sorts of terrible things."

This segment dismantles the misconception that Tolkien sidelined women, showcasing their integral roles and profound influence within his narratives.

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Exploring Aragorn and Arwen’s Farewell

Transitioning to the core of the episode, Alan and Sara embark on an in-depth discussion of Aragorn and Arwen’s final moments together, as depicted in Appendix A. They begin by reading a significant excerpt that encapsulates the bittersweet parting of these two beloved characters.

Reading the Passage: Sara reads the passage from Appendix A that details Aragorn's farewell to Arwen, highlighting the gravity and sorrow embedded in their conversation.

Sara [27:30]: "When the Great Ring was unmade and the three were shorn of their power then Elrond grew weary at last and forsook Middle Earth never to return."

Analysis of Mortality and Grief: The discussion delves into the themes of mortality, the inevitability of death, and the profound grief experienced by both Aragorn and Arwen. They explore why Aragorn chooses to depart willingly rather than succumb to senility, emphasizing his desire to preserve his dignity and the well-being of his lineage.

Alan [31:42]: "Why wouldn't he choose to leave?"

Sara [34:07]: "She was overborne by her grief."

Aragorn’s Decision: Alan contemplates Aragorn's decision to leave while still strong, pondering whether Elrond could have chosen mortality. They conclude that Aragorn's extended lifespan, though significantly longer than that of ordinary men, still culminates in the same inevitable end.

Alan [36:41]: "Or maybe even until Arwen's death."

Sara [37:06]: "She has to abide the doom of men."

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Parallels with Other Tolkien Narratives

The hosts draw insightful parallels between Aragorn and Arwen's story and other narratives within Tolkien’s works, notably the tales of Luthien and Beren, and Finrod and Andreth.

Comparing to Luthien and Beren: Sara notes the difference in Arwen's experience compared to Luthien's acceptance of mortality, emphasizing the unique sorrow Arwen endures.

Sara [55:01]: "Arwen just doesn't know what to do with it."

Finrod and Andreth: Alan and Sara touch upon Finrod's discussions with Andreth about mortality, highlighting the differing perceptions and acceptance of death between elves and men.

Sara [95:08]: "Androth's bitter complaint that Iluvatar had forsaken the Etani and that the Valar had ignored them."

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Themes of Choice and the Human Condition

A central theme of the episode is the profound exploration of choice, particularly in the face of inevitable mortality. The conversation emphasizes Aragorn's acceptance of his fate as a testament to living a life of purpose and honor.

Sara on the Human Condition: Sara reflects on the universality of loss and the human struggle to find comfort in the face of unchangeable sorrow.

Sara [62:04]: "There is sorrow in all endings."

Alan on Acceptance: Alan admires Aragorn's ability to accept his fate, viewing it as a model of strength and wisdom.

Alan [60:43]: "You can't fix it. You just have to live what you got."

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Final Reflections and Conclusions

As the episode concludes, Alan and Sara reflect on the lasting impact of Aragorn and Arwen's story. They underscore the narrative's deep resonance with the human experience, encapsulating the inevitability of loss and the beauty of enduring love.

Sara on Arwen’s Legacy: Sara laments the ultimate obscurity Arwen faces, highlighting the transient nature of memory and legacy.

Sara [84:54]: "All the days of her life are utterly forgotten by men that come after."

Alan on Tolkien’s Prose: Alan praises Tolkien's masterful prose, particularly the lines that encapsulate the grandeur and sorrow of Aragorn's legacy.

Alan [90:53]: "It is so glorious... some of the most beautiful prose... buried here in the appendices."

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Sara [06:17]: "Galadriel is older than Elrond, has seen a heck of a lot more... I think we can. I think we should put that to bed, frankly."

• Sara [07:42]: "Well written female character is one that is well rounded, three dimensional, actually has agency... sometimes they go through all sorts of terrible things."

• Sara [27:30]: "When the Great Ring was unmade and the three were shorn of their power then Elrond grew weary at last and forsook Middle Earth never to return."

• Alan [31:42]: "Why wouldn't he choose to leave?"

• Sara [34:07]: "She was overborne by her grief."

• Sara [55:01]: "Arwen just doesn't know what to do with it."

• Sara [95:08]: "Androth's bitter complaint that Iluvatar had forsaken the Etani and that the Valar had ignored them."

• Sara [62:04]: "There is sorrow in all endings."

• Alan [60:43]: "You can't fix it. You just have to live what you got."

• Sara [84:54]: "All the days of her life are utterly forgotten by men that come after."

• Alan [90:53]: "It is so glorious... some of the most beautiful prose... buried here in the appendices."

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Conclusion

Episode 368 of The Prancing Pony Podcast offers a heartfelt and intellectually stimulating examination of Aragorn and Arwen’s farewell. Through their nuanced discussions, Alan and Sara illuminate the profound emotional and philosophical underpinnings of Tolkien's work, celebrating the enduring legacy of his characters while addressing complex themes that resonate deeply with listeners.

Whether you're a seasoned Tolkien enthusiast or new to the legendarium, this episode provides a rich tapestry of insights that enhance the understanding and appreciation of Middle-earth's intricate narratives.

Transcript

[Alan Sisto]

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[Sara]

And it's not even been six score years of great glory and bliss.

[Alan Sisto]

Or half that.

[Sara]

Appearances aside, I'm not saying anything. Folks, pull up a bench in the common room and join us. I'm Sara, the shieldmaiden of Rohan, and I'm here with the man of the west who has gathered and spent plenty, Alan Sisto.

[Alan Sisto]

As long as there's none of that pesky payment stuff. Folks, Join us as Sara and I actually conclude our time in the tale of Aragorn and Arwen found in Appendix A. Yeah, we.

[Sara]

This time we promise. Definitely. Definitely. Right.

[Alan Sisto]

That was a bit of a surprise last week, wasn't it?

[Sara]

Well, surprises. We can be spontaneous, I suppose. I like to plan to be spontaneous, though.

[Alan Sisto]

I like to get all the details lined up in my calendar if I'm going to be spontaneous.

[Sara]

Yes, exactly. Folks, no matter how you arrived, you're all welcome. Here in the common room at the Prancing Pony Podcast, we are reading and talking our way through Middle Earth with plenty of speculation and some truly terrible jokes along the way.

[Alan Sisto]

Speak for yourself. We do love our deep dives into the lore, discussing our favorite themes, and a whole lot more, but we do.

[Sara]

Try to keep it light and fun. Just a couple of friends chatting at the pub and we're glad you joined us.

[Alan Sisto]

And I'm sure you'll be glad you joined as well. But before we get to tonight's chapter discussion, I think it's time to revisit the War of the Rohirrim film.

[Sara]

Yay.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that's worth talking about again. You might remember the standalone review that I did with Matt. It was released back when the film came out in December. It if you missed it, it's now the intro segment for a very long episode 353. But that's been a while. Why am I coming back nearly four months after the film's release? Partly because the film is now out on streaming services, and I believe even those of you who didn't see it in the theaters are going to want to catch it. And it is well worth watching. But mostly because Sara has some really great insights and I'd be doing you all a disservice if I didn't shine a light on them. You ready?

[Sara]

No promises and no pressure.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. So in the story of Helm Hammerhand in the appendices, we're never given the name of Hel daughter right? Hera in the film, let alone much in the way of her story. Aside from the fact that Freca asked for her hand for his son Wolf for a politically convenient marriage, we know nothing about her from Tolkien. And at the same time, as we talked about last week, when Tolkien does give us a fleshed out female character, they're always amazing. How then, does the film's choice of telling the story from Hera's perspective, featuring her as the protagonist rather than simply do a pure retelling, reflect the importance of women in Tolkien?

[Sara]

That Is a great question. Good, because a little praise, a little sprinkling of praise before we get started. Because one of the earliest complaints about Tolkien's work, and I'm going right the way back to when it was first published, was that there weren't any women in it, which of course is kind of rubbish, but also that Tolkien was a misogynist who didn't write good female characters. And I kind of take exception to that. I'm not going to sit here and tell you that Tolkien was a proto feminist, et cetera, et cetera, but I think calling him an utter misogynist is also a little bit down the other end of the extreme. Because if you look at his female characters, actually there's some extraordinary female characters. We know this, right? I mean, Varda is the one that Morgoth fears the most. Ungoliant terrifies Morgoth. And we cannot, we cannot forget the spider form females, you know, just because they're not in bipedal form. Haleth was a great chief of people and she kept her people together despite everything that they went through. Eowyn, everybody knows my opinion of Eowyn, you know, the way that she actually took charge of her life in the end is, I think, incredibly powerful to read. Galadriel is a incredibly wise and powerful elf. In fact, I would argue the most powerful elf currently in Middle Earth, in the Third Age.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I mean, it's between her and Elrond, and that's a pretty close battle. But I think I'd probably lean Galadriel too.

[Sara]

Galadriel is older than Elrond, has seen a heck of a lot more. And, you know, when they were tearing down Barad Dur, it was not Elrond who took it down piece by piece. Nope. It was Gadriel. So if we jump over the whole Tolkien didn't write women thing, I think we can. I think we should put that to bed, frankly.

[Alan Sisto]

So, yeah, yeah, I like where you land that you're saying, you know, okay, granted, he's not a proto feminist. Fair. But he's also not a misogynist and he does have, or at least show in his writings a tremendous admiration for many strong women, even if they don't feature in the stories.

[Sara]

Right. I agree with that. And there's a phrase I actually loathe, which is strong female character. Because what does that actually mean? Right. To me, well written female character is one that is well rounded, three dimensional, actually has agency is more than just agency. You know, a pretty little thing hanging off a man's arm or is there simply to be the one who screams and gets rescued? Right. So I don't like this phrase, strong female character, because really great female characters, sometimes they're not strong in the same sense that we might think of. Sometimes they go through all sorts of terrible things.

[Alan Sisto]

I don't know that Faramir would have been able to describe Eowyn as strong in the moment that he met her. She was struggling. She was really in the midst of post traumatic stress disorder. I mean, she was really struggling.

[Sara]

Yes, she was.

[Alan Sisto]

That doesn't make her any less strong of a person. It just means that you wouldn't describe her in that way. And I think the other thing is, let's be honest, if somebody says, oh, a strong female character, doesn't it imply that the default is not?

[Sara]

Yes. Which I totally.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

Yep. And that. That really grinds my flower. That's. That's a really dreadful thing to say.

[Alan Sisto]

I agree.

[Sara]

So taking this back to Hera, because we started sort of with Hera, I think actually getting the story of this film in through Hera's eyes, I think that's a great choice because, yes, they could have chosen to do it in a different way, but why? Here you have a really good story through the eyes of a female character that we don't know very much about. So there's plenty that you can pull on. I love the way in which they did the kind of mirroring of Eowyn in the Shield Maiden sort of idea. I really like that. I'm not saying that the way in which Hera was portrayed is perfect, because it's not. There are a lot of things about her character, though, that are extremely interesting. She has her frailties and she has her strengths and she overcomes things. And she is courageous in some moments and quite rightly frightened in others. You know, she is a really well rounded, well written character. I could have done without the costuming being very male gaze.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I mean, I. That might have. I'm not an anime expert. I don't claim to be, but I. My understanding is that's probably more related to that choice of media than anything else, but I'm with you on that.

[Sara]

Well, maybe anime needs to, you know, embrace the 21st century.

[Alan Sisto]

Maybe. Yeah, I think.

[Sara]

But your question is, how does getting her story from her perspective, rather than a pure retelling, reflect the importance of women in Tolkien? I think it absolutely does do this. I think, yes, they could have a straight narrative, but getting it through the eyes of Hera gives us a different perspective on the world. We can feel the way in which she is marginalized. We can feel the way in which she has to take her power when she needs to. We can actually understand how she grasps for her agency, you know, And I think that that is. That is a really powerful moment when she does those things.

[Alan Sisto]

That is. And I'm thinking, I mean, let's put the hypothetical in front of you about what if the story were to be. If we were doing a pure retelling, we could tell it from Frailov's perspective, since he's the only one who survives, and we could certainly look at it from there and we would get some similar elements. But you're right, there'd be some missing things, wouldn't there?

[Sara]

There would, yeah. And frankly, we have enough stories through the male perspective. I think it's really good to have stories through other perspectives. It brings other dimensions to stories, and I'm all in favour of that.

[Alan Sisto]

I agree. Well, I feel like that's something that Tolkien hinted at as well. There are some quotes from Tolkien that talk about women fighting that I want to bring up. I just want to kind of get your thoughts on these first. That comes to mind is something we read about in the history of the Eotheod. These are the people that became the Rohirrim. And we read that many lords and warriors and many fair and valiant women are named in the songs of Rohan that still remember the North. I like that it doesn't say it explicitly, but it certainly hints from the fact that they're valiant and not just fair. Faramir says something very similar. He's talking about how much the people of Gondor admire and love the people of Rohan. He describes them as tall men and fair women, valiant, both alike. And then there's the really explicit mention, which is actually from a draft of the chapter the Passing of the Gray Company. I think this might have inspired the filmmakers a bit because it really mentions the shield maidens. Tolkien's notes indicate there was a time in the past where the women of Rohan actually did ride to war. He wrote, as they did, speaking of the women in a like, evil time in the days of Brego, son of Eorle, when the Wild Men of the east came from the Inland Sea into the East. Emnet.

[Sara]

I just think that this is proof that Tolkien didn't just sideline women and, you know, think that they were nothing more than sewing banners at home, as we mentioned in the last episode.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, Arwen. Yes.

[Sara]

Yeah. There's this. More to the women of Middle Earth. They all have to be fair, apparently, which kind of scratches at my nerves. But we have valiant women, we have women who fight. And I think that that is a really good part of the story. It's an acknowledgment that this is something that has been true down the centuries in our primary world as well.

[Alan Sisto]

It does reflect the reality.

[Sara]

It does reflect reality. It's really relatively modern that women have been kept at home and not fought and talking relatively modern. I'm going back, you know, two, 300 years, a number of hundred years. And it really, it's Christianity and the spread of Christianity that has created a very paternalistic society that has dictated where women are supposed to be in society. But we, you know, if we look at it from a Eurocentric point of view or a u. S. Centric point of view, that it might make sense that, oh, women don't go on the front line, but we are forgetting all the other cultures of the world in which women did fight, and they weren't marginalized in the same way as European. Many European women. Many women of the America. North America, actually. Yes. So I think this is a good thing. I think it speaks to how Tolkien was very immersed, very versed in ancient mythologies and stories of other cultures, particularly northern European cultures. Yes, but he was, he was really immersed in those stories. And I think that a lot of what he says about women here actually comes from those old stories.

[Alan Sisto]

That makes total sense, especially when, you know, the deeper cuts about, like, the Eotheod, you know, we talk about the Rohirrim being sort of like the old English on horseback, you know, Anglo Saxons on horseback. That's more true when you look at the Eotheod clearly being inspired by Gothic history. And so, you know, you, you look at those two cultures in particular, or you look even older at their predecessors in, you know, the Norse histories, you know, and where women were not infrequent combatants. And I think we talked about this a little bit, a few episodes back, the same question, but more in a primary world perspective with Dr. Brett Devereaux, who was able to. To bring in some really interesting historical insight on that. So, folks, if you missed that, please go back, because that question, you know, he was able to give us some. Some really sound real world examples. Now we.

[Sara]

Yeah, I mean, Boudicca wants a word.

[Alan Sisto]

Boudicca always wants a word and she should have one.

[Sara]

She's dumb.

[Alan Sisto]

Learned it fine. Yeah, I'm not gonna. Who am I to tell her? No, Right. Last person who did that Yeah, I don't want to cross her for sure. We've chatted a bit about a particular character before we sat down to have this interview. And you mentioned you have a lot of thoughts on about Olwen. She was the lady in waiting for Hera, who, it turns out, is pretty handy with a sword and shield. What makes her such an interesting character for you?

[Sara]

Olwen is amazing.

[Alan Sisto]

Agreed.

[Sara]

I love this character. The fact that she seems like nobody really in particular, just, you know, just a lady in waiting and that's all. But she is so much more than that. And she has some wonderful moments in the film. Oh, absolutely. She. Now there's a woman who is valiant.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes.

[Sara]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Her rescue O'Hara, you know, along with Frelof, of course, but the rescue that she pulls off going into the tower and I mean, just fantastic stuff.

[Sara]

Extraordinary. And it's one of the things I enjoy the most about this film because, yes, most of the film is from the perspective of Hera, but they have given us this other character who is incredibly powerful as a character who just has this. This calm determination about her, and she just rides out to take on the entirety of that army on the bridge and said, no, no, no, you're. You're not going anywhere. It's just brilliant. I absolutely love the fact that they wrote this other character in who has a wisdom and a strength and who is carrying the line of shield maidens. It does speak to the fact that in this time we seem to. Or this culture seems to have kind of lost their way when it comes to shield maidens. I love the fact that Olwen steps forward and says, oh, we are right here. We are right here. And then rightly, she passes on this. This way of thinking and this way of being to Hera, who, you know, she is then inheriting this ideal from Olwen.

[Alan Sisto]

I agree. I like how she serves as an inspiration for Hera in a way. I mean, like we've talked about before, you mentioned that, you know, Hera is. In terms of the portrayal of her character, she's not perfect and that's okay. But she. She grows. And one of the reasons she grows is because she looks up to somebody like Olwen. Owen serves as an example setter for her.

[Sara]

Yeah, exactly. I mean, Hera, you can see from the beginning she doesn't want to be pretty princess who sits at home and waits for some handsome gentleman to come and decide she doesn't even want to get married.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

Yeah. So she has very much her own mind from the very beginning. But when it comes to who she becomes. Eventually, by the end of the film, she look, as you say, she looks to Alwyn for that.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

And that I think speaks to the experience of so many women in the primary world. It is very hard to be what you cannot see. So when you have an inspiration right there in front of you, somebody who shows you this is possible, this is who I am, and you can be that too, and I will help you and guide you, then that makes it possible for her to choose that this is the way she's going to go. Like I said, this is such a reflection of women's experience here in the primary world that to me it just sang the song of my people, you.

[Alan Sisto]

Know, hard to be what you cannot see. That's a really good way of putting it. And yeah, I think you're right. I mean, she may be. She may look up to her father, she may admire her brothers and she may even admire her cousin, but it's Olwen who serves as the role model for her.

[Sara]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that's excellent.

[Sara]

Yeah. And I think also as a middle aged woman, I want to speak up here for the fact that they chose a middle aged woman in Alwyn to be the powerhouse. I really like that. Because another one of women's experiences in the primary world is that you get to be a woman of a certain age, you become first of all invisible and then you become useless in the eyes of society. You're nothing anymore. What have you got to offer? You're no longer pretty, you're no longer producing babies. And there's just this awful idea that I'm afraid is still very prevalent, that middle aged women, their only purpose is, and I'm afraid we've heard this actually relatively recently, that older women, their only purpose is to be a grandmother to grandchildren. And I think having characters like Alwyn, older women who just say, this is not the life I'm leading, this is not the life I will choose, and showing younger women that there are other paths forward, this is vitally important, absolutely vitally important for the young women of this time to understand that there are other ways to be and there are other choices for them. And honestly, having a woman like Olwen as a character, a middle aged woman who is still immensely powerful and wise and knows what she's doing with a sword, that. That was my favorite part of the entire film.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I liked her character a lot. I also thought it was telling that the, the one who complained or who like, looked back and said, oh, yeah, that that was back then, we don't need that anymore. The, the. The. The Lord of Rohan who said that turned out to be the bad guy, the traitor.

[Sara]

Yeah, funny that.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, exactly. I thought that was a little bit of a nod as well.

[Sara]

Yeah. Bad guys can often be short sighted.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, before we move on into the episode itself, now that we've talked about Hera and about Olwen and certainly from that female perspective, I also want to just get your general thoughts on the film as a whole. It was certainly an interesting choice of medium. I know that was an area that I both had likes about and some challenges with. And then also maybe discuss its place in the pantheon of Tolkien adaptations, if you will.

[Sara]

I was a bit concerned before I went to see the film because I'm not into anime. I'm not really into animated films at all. I can't remember the last time I watched something animated.

[Alan Sisto]

The 1977 Hobbit, possibly.

[Sara]

And even that was a very long time ago, although later than 1977, but still. So I was a little bit concerned that it wouldn't be for me. And the first few minutes were challenging because I was trying to get my head around what was going on here. And could I really just put aside the fact that this is animated and just focus on the narrative and the characters?

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[Sara]

And I found that I could actually. So I was pretty impressed by that.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

I wasn't sure I would get drawn into the story as much as I was. So that was really good.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I could agree with that. It took a few minutes. Like you said, that establishing shot helped that they used a lot of what felt almost like real footage, you know, of like it didn't look hand drawn animation when you're looking at the ground. Oh, yeah.

[Sara]

A lot of the scenery felt quite real.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, yes. And that helped, I think, a lot. But you're right, once we were maybe 5, 10 minutes in the film, I was no longer looking at it as an animated film. I was just following the narrative.

[Sara]

Yeah, yeah. And that actually worked for me far better than I thought it was going to do. So that's good. As far as its place in the pantheon of Tolkien adaptations, I enjoyed it. I think that this was a really interesting choice because it's what a paragraph in the appendices.

[Alan Sisto]

It really is. I mean, it's I think maybe about a page at the most. The entire story of Helm. Page and a half, maybe. But certainly her story, her aspect of it is a sentence. Yeah, it's just a fragment of that one sentence, actually. Yeah, yeah. It was really.

[Sara]

So I Think that's an interesting choice because there's a heck of a lot in the appendices that could be mined for that.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yeah.

[Sara]

And. And I'm okay with that being done, so long as it is done sensitively and thoughtfully and not just let's make money.

[Alan Sisto]

I agree. The Lord of the Rings license is, let's be honest, a license to print money.

[Sara]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

It's always going to be a money maker. And. Yeah. I mean, there is, like, you said so much to mine. I. We've been going through the appendices this entire season with long digressions into the unfinished tales, but there's so much in there. You know, you think about the war in the north with. With the. The fall of the realm of Arnor into the three splinter kingdoms and the fight against the Witch King. I mean, that would be a tremendous set of films. But you're right, it does need to be done tastefully.

[Sara]

Yeah. It needs to be done sensitively because there's a lot of us out here who would be very critical if it was just done.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. You can kind of tell a money grab when it's. When it's.

[Sara]

Yeah, you can tell a money grab.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. The cynicism comes through.

[Sara]

Yeah. And I have to be honest, that's one of the many reasons why I don't like the Hobbit films. They always felt to me like a money grab because here you have a relatively short book and it was broken into three very long films.

[Alan Sisto]

I know.

[Sara]

What else could it be but a money grab when you're doing that?

[Alan Sisto]

I think I did the math once. It's like 4.2 times the number of pages per minute or.

[Sara]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

The other way around. Like Lord of the Rings does. Four and a half. Almost four and a half times more pages per minute because they've had to compress it.

[Sara]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

The Hobbit is just drawn out.

[Sara]

Yes. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Lord of the Rings would have been something like 17 films had they done the same pace. It's crazy.

[Sara]

Yeah. Yeah. I think that they could have done without all the padding in the Hobbit that they had to put in to make it go three films.

[Alan Sisto]

And that's what made it a cash grab. You're right.

[Sara]

Yeah. And I know there are people out there who enjoy the Hobbit films.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

And you. Do you. You know, your mileage may vary and all of those sayings.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

It just wasn't for me.

[Alan Sisto]

Correct. I want to make sure that's really clear, folks, because, you know, Sara and I are 2/3 of the team that do the Rings of Power wrap up. And we know there are people who don't like that show or there are people who do. And again, the point is, we're not here to tell you what is or is not legitimate Tolkien fandom. You could say that Alfred is your favorite Tolkien. Okay, maybe not. You could. You could do about anything. Yeah, I might judge you, but. But that's fine. If that's what got you into Tolkien, that's what got you to Tolkien. Welcome to the fandom. Them. We're never going to give you a hard time that you like those films, but like you said, they did have a little bit of a cash grab feel to him. So, Yeah, I think I would slot this in above those, but below any of the Lord of the Rings films that Jackson did. Those three sort of stand so high, I don't know that they're ever. Even when they do the Hunt for Gollum in a couple of years, I'm not anticipating that it'll be as good or better than Fellowship, Two Towers or Return of the King.

[Sara]

See, the thing is, there's already a very, very good fan. Film. Fan made film.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

Of the Hunt for God.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes.

[Sara]

Which I very much enjoyed.

[Alan Sisto]

I did, too.

[Sara]

And so they're gonna have to do better than that, which is a very, you know, that's a decent bar to ask it, really. All the money that they've got behind.

[Alan Sisto]

That's exactly right. Because that film sure was done on virtually no budget at all and, you know, and yet is absolutely spectacular. So, yeah. Yeah, this will be interesting to see what happens in the future. But you're right, I would like to see more of those stories. Certainly this one was a fun one to see and I'm glad you were able to take your time today to. To talk about it, especially from a perspective that I might be able to talk about that, but not from the same sort of experience and, you know, the same sort of insight. So thank you so much for, for.

[Sara]

Oh, you're very welcome. And thank you for giving me a platform in which to talk about things from that kind of perspective.

[Alan Sisto]

Absolutely.

[Sara]

Because that's not always easy to find either.

[Alan Sisto]

That's fair. That is fair. Well, we're going to go ahead and get into the discussion of Egor and Arwen. And, you know, like I said, folks, this was an unexpected episode in that we were planning on doing this in two, but as we were working our way through the discussion last week, we're like, wait a minute, look at the time. So Here we go. Bonus episode. And we're going to go ahead and start where we picked up with the end of the Third Age. And Sarah, would you start us out?

[Sara]

I would love to. The Third Age ended thus in victory and hope. And yet grievous among the sorrows of that age was the parting of Elrond and Arwen. For they were sundered by the sea and by a doom beyond the end of the world. When the Great Ring was unmade and the three were shorn of their power then Elrond grew weary at last and forsook Middle Earth never to return. But Arwen became as a mortal woman. And yet it was not her lot to die until all that she had gained was lost as queen of Elves and Men she dwelt with Aragorn for six score years in great glory and bliss. Yet at last he felt the approach of old age and knew that the span of his life days was drawing to an end long though it had been. Then Aragon said to Arwen, at last. Lady Evenstar, fairest in this world and most beloved. My world is fading. Lo, we have gathered and we have spent and now the time of payment draws near. Arwen knew well what he intended and Long had foreseen it none the less. She was overborne by her grief. Would you then, lord, before your time leave your people that live by your word? She said. Not before my time, he answered. For if I will not go now then I must soon go perforce. And Eldarion our son is a man full ripe for kingship. Then, going to the house of the kings in the silent street Aragorn laid him down on the long bed that had been prepared for him. There he said farewell to Eldarion and gave into his hands the winged crown of Gondor and the sceptre of Arnor. And then all left him, save Arwen. And she stood alone by his bed. And for all her wisdom and lineage she could not forbear to plead with him to stay. Yet for a while she was not yet weary of her days. And thus she tasted the bitterness of the mortality that she had taken upon her.

[Alan Sisto]

And there's a lot of sorrow in that passage.

[Sara]

Oh boy.

[Alan Sisto]

And we just scratch the surface too. You know, we begin with the end. You know, we often talk about how it's always good to start at the beginning. Today we're beginning with the end the end of the Third Age and the parting of Elrond and Arwen. And you know, we've seen some really tremendous sorrows as The Third Age draws to a close, right? I mean, the Battle of the Pelenor and the death of Theod and, you know, so many things. You know, Denethor and so many sorrows. But the parting of these two is described as being grievous among those sorrows, like, this is some of the worst of the worst. And, you know, like. Like Luthien and her kin, Arwen is separated from Elrond now for all time forever. It's a doom beyond the end of the world.

[Sara]

Ugh. That's hard, isn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

That is, yeah.

[Sara]

Yeah. I mean, as you say, there are many sorrows at the end of the Third Age.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yeah.

[Sara]

Even if you want to point to it, Frodo having to leave his home and all of that sort of thing. No doubt here we have something we really focus on. And the text gives us a bit more of the why here. First, Elrond eventually forsakes Middle Earth. When the One Ring was destroyed, the three lost their power.

[Alan Sisto]

And that's a power of preservation. So it kind of makes sense that he's no longer able to preserve his land as well as he would have when he had the ring. And you almost wonder how much that extends to himself, even though he is of Elvenkind. I don't know. I mean, there's always a part of me, and this is a good question for discussion. Why wouldn't he stay a little longer? Maybe. Why not stay until the birth of his grandson, for instance? Or maybe even until Arwen's death. I mean, he's got plenty of time. Yes, but there's gotta be a reason for that. What do you think?

[Sara]

Right? I don't know. This has always been a question for me. I'd love to say, oh, yes, Alan, here I have the answer to this conundrum.

[Alan Sisto]

I don't think we have an answer, but it's like, you know, why would you choose to leave?

[Sara]

It is fascinating, isn't it? I mean, we go back to the ring that he bears and the whole idea of what those rings do, the preservation, the almost halting of time, which we know is not a natural thing.

[Alan Sisto]

No. And it's not even a good thing. Tolkien, in his letters, makes it very clear that this is kind of the weakness of the elves. Their desire to sort of keep things in stasis.

[Sara]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

I think he uses the analogy of somebody reading their favorite book, a chapter. We keep rereading the same chapter, Right?

[Sara]

Yes. And never moving on to the next chapter to see what happens next in the story. This is not a good choice. And I do wonder what the loss of the power of that ring that he bears, what that does to him. We don't really know much about that. We do have a little bit in the Unfinished Tales about what Nenya does to Galadriel.

[Alan Sisto]

Correct.

[Sara]

It actually. It kind of hurts her to bear Nya.

[Alan Sisto]

It does. It increases the sorrow. Right. Of her missing, of her not being in the Undying Lands.

[Sara]

Right. But, of course, the difference is that Galadriel was born there.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right.

[Sara]

Elrond's never been there.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. You know, coming back to that conversation we had earlier about which one might be more powerful, I mean, Galadriel is.

[Sara]

She's an original. She's an og.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, exactly. She's seen the trees.

[Sara]

Yes. So, I mean, she's hugely older than Elrond. I just. I don't know why he wouldn't choose to stay a little longer, knowing that the instant he leaves, that's it. He will never, ever see his daughter again. It's just, to me, it's a bit of a strange choice.

[Alan Sisto]

It is a bit of a strange choice because he does have unlimited time, essentially. Like, he can stay the extra, you know, 120 years or so. He doesn't know how long it'll be. But it's not going to be forever. It's only going to be whatever Aragorn's lifespan is, plus a few. And it's not as though that's a great deal of time for an Elf, like we've talked about. 500 years is a blink of an eye.

[Sara]

Unless he's really beginning to feel the fading.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Sara]

And the pull west is almost overcoming him because of the fading.

[Alan Sisto]

And possibly because Celebrian is there.

[Sara]

Well, yes, I mean, there is that. He's been parted from her for a heck of a long time.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. I mean, that's gotta play a role, though. I still think I know if I'm in his place. That is the conversation I'm dreading. Right. You know, we talked about that.

[Sara]

Like, oh, boy, how do you break that news?

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, gosh, my heart just breaks for him and for her, for having to just to relive that sorrow yet again. Like, here he is, parting from Arwen and now he's gonna have to go and explain. Oh, yes.

[Sara]

Yeah. It's not like he can send a WhatsApp before he gets there, just to give her a heads up.

[Alan Sisto]

No.

[Sara]

You know, she's gonna be there looking at his ship coming in and then wondering where her daughter Is. And that's just horrible.

[Alan Sisto]

And maybe that touches on this, maybe staying and experiencing those things with Arwen. I don't want to ascribe any sort of selfishness to Elrond, but a little self protection in the sense that maybe those things would just heap too much sorrow upon him.

[Sara]

He'd have to watch his daughter die.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah. He'd have to watch her age to some extent. And he'd have to watch the sorrow that she feels after Aragorn dies. Yeah, maybe it's a part of like, okay, I don't have the strength to stay here anymore anyway with the ring having lost its power and I really miss my wife and I'd love to stay, but if I stay, the sorrow that I'm feeling now is going to just be multiplied and be my experience every day for the next century, century and a half. I'm not going to do that.

[Sara]

It's quite the choice for a father to make.

[Alan Sisto]

It is, it is.

[Sara]

Yeah. Now talking of choices, because some might, some people might ask this question, right? Could Elrond have also chosen mortality?

[Alan Sisto]

That is actually it's a fair question. It is because we know that he was given a choice. And you know, like with Arwen, Arwen didn't have to make her choice yet. She's already lived, you know, these thousands of years, almost 2,800 years by the time she gets married to Aragorn. And yet now she can choose mortality like she's already lived a full elf life, you know. But that was the rule that was chosen for her, for him. He had to make that callback when Elros and he made those decisions. And Elros chose to be counted as a man. Elrond chose to be of elf kind. So that decision was already made.

[Sara]

There's no take backsies on that.

[Alan Sisto]

No, you can't have your thousands of years of Elven wisdom and eat it too. Yes, except that Arwen can because that was again the rule set for her.

[Sara]

Yes, she could make the choice later. Yes. Yeah, as you say, Elrond and Elros made their choice a long, long, long time.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, yes. Or I guess, yeah, right at the end of the first, right before the. Because the second age began right then when yes, Numenor was established.

[Sara]

But Arwen on the other hand, is now mortal. She has made that choice. Although she isn't going to die for some time.

[Alan Sisto]

No.

[Sara]

But the text ominously says not until all that she had gained was lost. Ouch.

[Alan Sisto]

That's hard. That is hard to hear, boy.

[Sara]

Like I Mean, is Tolkien judging her for making this choice then? Oh, you gained all of this by giving up all of this. But now you've lost everything.

[Alan Sisto]

Everything. All you.

[Sara]

Is that a punishment? Is that a judgment?

[Alan Sisto]

Is it a reality? Like a reflection of the reality of mortality? You know, I mean, what had she gained in nearly 2,800 years before her marriage to Aragorn? She'd gained all this Elvish knowledge. Knowledge. She wouldn't have lost her knowledge, would she? She would have gained Elvish wisdom and life experience. Those things couldn't really be taken away.

[Sara]

I don't think there's any intimation in the text that as soon as she decided, okay, I'm going to be mortal, that all of that was, I don't know, drained out of her or something.

[Alan Sisto]

She's gotten. I'm thinking in D and D terms, she's experienced a vampire and now she's lost, like, seven levels and she's back to being a level two newbie again. No, I don't think there's anything like that at all. What is it that she's gained that gets lost? It's the love with Aragorn, right? That gain is going to be lost. That life that she's had is going to be over.

[Sara]

But isn't that an interesting way of phrasing it when we're also supposed to accept the gift of Iluvatar as being a thing?

[Alan Sisto]

And the lay of Laetheon is the release from bondage because it enabled Luthien to be released from the bondage of Arda. That's a good thing.

[Sara]

And therefore, when she and Beren died, they both accepted the gift of Iluvatar. So it's just. I don't know. I find this a difficult phrase. All that she had gained was loss seems to indicate. Indicate that she now has absolutely nothing. And yet we are supposed to accept that the gift of Iluvatar is a thing. And if the gift of Iluvatar is a thing and now she is mortal she is now subject to the gift of Iluvatar the same as Aragorn.

[Alan Sisto]

Maybe this is from her perspective because, again, as we'll kind of get into a little bit more when we talk about the gift at length and we'll talk about this really at the. As she continues this conversation like, I never understood what your people were dealing with before. From her perspective, it's all loss. Because now she's given up this immortality. We know better, right? Maybe this is from her perspective. She believes now she has Lost everything that she's gained. But she has also gained something she can't comprehend, and that is the gift of Iluvatar. That is freedom from the bondage of Arda. And she won't understand that or comprehend it until she has died. So, I mean, that could be an angle that we look at, at that, from that. It's just from her. I'm not going to say myopic or narrow vision, but her limited by her nature vision.

[Sara]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Who she is and how she's lived.

[Sara]

Yeah. Because we know that the elves do not understand the gift of Iluvatar any more than the. The mortal folks do.

[Alan Sisto]

I was gonna say any more than some of the kings of Numenor understood it.

[Sara]

Yeah, exactly. So, yeah. And like anybody else, that which is utterly unknown is kind of scary.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, it would be. Well, coming back to the text and, you know, we mentioned the Numenoreans thinking about their lifespan. Well, obviously Aragorn having that lifespan, or at least something very close to it. We get a mere mention of the 120 years that she spent with Aragorn. The six score years in great glory and bliss. And of course, I'm just wondering, we know that the 50th anniversary, you got to give gold. The 60th anniversary is diamond. I guess it's platinum when you get to 75. What do you give to somebody who's been married 120 years?

[Sara]

The gift of Illuvitar, apparently.

[Alan Sisto]

Wow. Brutal. All right. Happy anniversary. It does feel, interestingly like six score years in great glory and bliss. It almost feels like a slight of some kind. Right. Like we're just fast forwarding to the end. She got to live 120 years. That. That is gone in the blink of an eye here in the text. And I think that's actually the point. It's a really clever way for Tolkien to show us mortals how quickly 120 years would go by for somebody who, well, until yesterday, was essentially immortal.

[Sara]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. It kept kind of shocking me, like, I don't understand. I want to know more about their lives. The 120 years they got to spend in bliss. Oh, wait. But it would feel just like that to her.

[Sara]

It would, yeah. 120 years is a week to the rest of us.

[Alan Sisto]

Just about. I mean, remember she was born in third age241 you mentioned a week. I'm going to do the math, because that's who I am.

[Sara]

Oh, my goodness. You math nerd.

[Alan Sisto]

She was 2778 years old at the time. Of her marriage to Aragorn. Right. Just a little bit shy of 2,800 years. So these 120 years that she spends with Aragorn represent barely 4,4% of her life experience. So that's the equivalent of a little more than two years for me at my age. And I can tell you how fast the last two years seem to have gone by.

[Sara]

Oh yeah, that's a blur.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that's quite kind of wild. Two years.

[Sara]

Yeah, yeah, that's fair. Yeah, yeah. And of course, as we know, when you are, I don't know, a five year old, two years is an eternity.

[Alan Sisto]

Because it's more than half your life.

[Sara]

Right, Exactly. When you are, cough, mumble, mumble, years older than that, two years is a tiny percentage and it, it doesn't feel like that much time at all. So for somebody who's 2,778.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

Two years is, yeah, tiny, tiny breath of time.

[Alan Sisto]

It's a sliver. I mean, 120 years, 4% of life experience. You're right. So it would be for a 10 year old old, the equivalent of about four months, maybe a little bit more, which is still kind of long for a 10 year old, but you get my point. It's, it's as a percentage of her life, it's not very much and it would feel very much like the blink of an eye. It does seem sort of logarithmic, like there's a curve.

[Sara]

Yes. We perceive time very differently the older we are. I think days go fast. Yes, exactly. It's it. Yeah. Wibbly, wobbly, timey wimey again. Yeah. So for Arwen, I think her perspective on time would be very different indeed.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, 100%. I mean, it's like, you know, I keep coming back to Legolas when he's talking about Rohan. He's ah, 500 years, whatever. That's nothing, you know.

[Sara]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And it would be very little for her in this case. 122 years. Yeah.

[Sara]

But those years pass and in fourth age, 120 at the age of 210.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

And having ruled Gondor and Arnor as the king for 122 years, Aragorn knows his time is coming to an end.

[Alan Sisto]

Wow.

[Sara]

Yeah. Now, you and dawn, you talked at length about this awareness that the men and women of Numenor had regarding their impending death. That was back in the Postscript for episode 346.

[Alan Sisto]

It was, yeah.

[Sara]

Now, while we're not going to spoil that whole discussion, you need to join the Fellowship of the podcast to get all those extra goodies like the episode post scripts.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Right.

[Sara]

We should at least mention a bit about the way this lifespan worked and what would have happened had Aragal not willingly surrendered.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. So Tolkien did explain that the Numenoreans. And of course again, Aragorn is not a Numenorean in that pure sense of the word, but he is the most Dunadan of the Dunedain. Ever since Elendil, these men and women have been granted only an extension of the period of their vigor of mind and body. In other words, they grew up a lot like ordinary men from infancy through childhood and right up until they were full grown. I mean, it's not like a 16 year old numenorean looked like he was five. He looked like he was 16. Yeah, they were just ordinary.

[Sara]

Right. And. But it's after that that things changed.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly.

[Sara]

They then aged or wore out. I feel that one very much slower. So that for them, five years had about the same effect as one year for ordinary mortals.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay, that gives us a really good explanation of how the Numenoreans were. Would, you know, up until they were about 20 or 25, would seem very much like a normal human. And then they would slow that aging process down. This extended period of vigor of mind and body, this 5 to 1 ratio, how did they know when that time was ending? When the weariness of the world showed up, that's when they knew that time was ending. And Tolkien explains that if they still clung to life, decay would, as growth had done, soon proceed at more or less the same rate as for other men. Thus, if a Numenorean reached the end of Vigor at about 400 years, he would then pass quickly in about 10 years from health and vigor of mind to decrepitude and senility.

[Sara]

And if you knew that was coming.

[Alan Sisto]

After 400 years, I'm out.

[Sara]

Yeah, yeah. So back to the text then. Aragorn knows it's time. He just knows there's no point in enduring a decade and probably actually a bit less than that because he's not living to 400 years like the Numenoreans at their peak. No, there's no point in enduring any kind of period of time of decrepitude and senility.

[Alan Sisto]

No.

[Sara]

And in that, of course, he's making the choice the way the oldest of the Numenorean kings did. The earliest did that.

[Alan Sisto]

The fall.

[Sara]

Exactly, exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. We knew there was a problem when the Numenorean kings stopped giving the scepter to their sons, when their sons were, you know, old enough and it was time for them to go. And then they would live out a few years before they would lay down their lives. These were. These were guys that would then hold on to the scepter all the way into their senility and, you know. You know, take this from my. My cold, dead hands. And so then they would. So Aragorn, not wanting to face that, I can't blame him, tells her that his world is fading. That comes back to that whole weariness of the world that Tolkien said. That's when they know it's coming. And this beautifully poignant way of putting it. We have gathered and we have spent. And now the time of payment draws near. Man, that hits hard, you know.

[Sara]

Yes, it does, doesn't it? But as you say, what a beautifully poignant way to phrase that.

[Alan Sisto]

There's so much in dates. I'm so sorry.

[Sara]

No, no, no, it's absolutely fine. Because we're both sitting here really, really quite taken.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

By this phrase. There's so much to say about this. Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Is there really is?

[Sara]

Yeah. Because if you think about. This is actually a wonderful description of a life well lived.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, that's what I'm thinking. I mean, we only get to see the part about them gathering. Right. This is. We've. We've met each other, we fell in love, we got betrothed. I did the things that I needed to do, I became king. And we've spent. We don't get to really see his rule. We don't get to see all of their kids. We know there's at least three. We'll get to that in a bit. They've spent. They've spent the six score years in glory and bliss, but now the checks here, and it's time to pay.

[Sara]

Yeah. And if there's one thing that we do know at the end of all things, this is something that's going to be right there waiting for you, and it's inevitable. And, of course, this is what happened with Numenor. This is the fall when people who were mortal tried to reject the idea of mortality.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. I don't want to make that payment, and I want to find a way to keep on having this. Six score years of glory and bliss. Why can't it be a thousand score years of glory and blood?

[Sara]

Right? And this is the difference between the check is presented and you get your wallet out and you hand over the money and you thank the wait staff for the lovely experience, or you try and make a dash out the door. And you're grabbed by security who then punch you to the ground, grab your wallet anyway and leave you bleeding on the floor.

[Alan Sisto]

I've never thought of Air Farazan as a dine and dasher, but that's exactly what it was.

[Sara]

Yeah, it's the same kind of idea, just through a slightly odd perspective it's taking. Without paying.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. Exactly. And that does not. That's literally just not a possibility in the world of men. That's not how it works. And it's not a decision or, you know, a good thing or a bad thing. It just simply is. It's a tautology. Men are mortal. Flat out. There's nothing you can do to get around that. And if you try, you're either going to end up like Farazan, buried in the caves of the forgotten until the end of time. You want immortality? You've got it. Or you're going to end up a Ringwraith stretched so thin you don't even have a corporeal existence anymore.

[Sara]

Be careful what you wish for.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, 100%. Yeah.

[Sara]

Yeah, exactly. And it's better, and Aragon knows this, to accept that it is time, rather than try to squeeze any more time out and then not enjoy what's left of it. Because, you know, with our Farazan, he spent so much time focused on wanting to be immortal that he forgot to actually enjoy the life he had.

[Alan Sisto]

Live what you got.

[Sara]

Right, right. Yeah. I mean, that's all. In the end, it's all we can do. It's all about choice again. And Tolkien was big on choice.

[Alan Sisto]

Huge on choice. Especially for men. Right. I mean, we could talk about fate. It comes to the elves in particular. But, yeah, I mean, Farazan was so enamored of what power could give him in his mortal life that he thought, well, if I can live a little longer, I can have even more power, you know? And that's. That was his eventual downfall. Though, in fairness to him, it was the downfall of the previous, you know, seven or eight kings, I think. Yes, something like that. He was just the end of the line.

[Sara]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

You mentioned earlier that this was inevitable. I think even Arwen knew it was inevitable, didn't she?

[Sara]

Yes, she did. And this is one of those conversations that Arwen knew. Knew was coming, knew had to happen. She even foresaw it happening. We get more foreseeing here again, of course. But unsurprisingly, this doesn't make it any less painful.

[Alan Sisto]

No, how could it?

[Sara]

No, how could it, indeed. So she appeals to his role as King, would you go and leave your people before your time? It's a nice try.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

But he points out it's not before his time.

[Alan Sisto]

No.

[Sara]

Right. He has been a great king, but if he slides now into senility, what kind of king is he going to be?

[Alan Sisto]

It's not going to be the leadership to his people that he wants to show.

[Sara]

Exactly. So he either goes now willingly or he ends up being kind of forced out.

[Alan Sisto]

I love that word, perforce, you know, Perforce.

[Sara]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I will be, you know, it's either I leave now or I leave. Perforce. Yeah. And of course, like he points out, look, Eldarion is ready for the throne and he really is quite ready. He was born in fourth age one. He's 120 years old now. So he's ready for the throne.

[Sara]

He's probably been ready for a good 40 years. Come on, dad.

[Alan Sisto]

Minimum. Exactly. So Aragorn heads down to Roth Dina, and that's the silent street. And in the House of the Kings. And as I'm thinking about this, as we're reading that text, I realize it's a place that no king has been since Earnur placed the crown of Elendil in the lap of his father, King Earnil. That was more than a thousand years before, in third age, 2050.

[Sara]

This is a historic moment.

[Alan Sisto]

It's like 1100 years. Yeah.

[Sara]

Yes. Yeah. But his place of rest had already been prepared for him. This. This conversation really wasn't a surprise.

[Alan Sisto]

No, it wasn't. And, you know, you mentioned in the text the long bed. I realized it's actually a very long bed. He was at least 6 foot 6. So we need the extremely long bed of rest here for the kid.

[Sara]

I hope it was a good comfy mattress as well. You know, if you're going to go out, you want to go out comfy.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, absolutely. Maybe a little adjustable little incline, the head a little bit, you know.

[Sara]

Oh, nice. Maybe with a bit of like one of those massage things going on under there. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I don't know how that works once you're dead, but, yeah, it certainly is.

[Sara]

You're dying. You could be really comfy while you're dying.

[Alan Sisto]

Might as well. If there's going to be a time that you need to be comfy, that would be it.

[Sara]

I would say so, yes, absolutely. So anyways, this is ridiculous. He said goodbye to their son and he gave him the crown of Gondor and the Scepter of Arnor. And those, of course, are the emblems of authority of the High Kingship and Then everybody leaves. It's just Aragorn and Arwen left alone for their final farewell.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, man. That's. The emotions in this room at this point have to be beyond what any of us could conceive. I mean, 120 years with somebody. And for Arwen, of course, realizing that this is going to change her entire existence. So she pleads with him, please, just a little bit longer. Right. But it's. It doesn't work. He knows it's time. It's time to go now. And the final part of what you read, My goodness, is that a heavy reminder of the price she's paying. She's now tasting the bitterness of the mortality that she had taken upon her. I can't help but compare this, and I want to kind of get your take on this with. With Baron and Luthien. Obviously, we're supposed to draw parallels with Baron and Luthien. When Baron died the first time, Luthien was not yet mortal, so she didn't taste that same bitterness. Instead, it was only after she pled before Mandas that Beren was given a second shot and she became mortal. So this is a very different. This is a genuine first.

[Sara]

Yes. Yeah. This is a very different situation, isn't it? Yeah. Because Luthien accepted mortality as the price for getting Baron out of the walls of man.

[Alan Sisto]

Second round. Yeah, Like I will give up my eternality or my serial longevity for him to get a second bite at the apple.

[Sara]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

This is different, and it's very different. We don't even know if Israel went through this because we aren't ever really sure or told exactly what happened with Tuar. In fact, there's the whole. Some say he was counted among the elves. So this really is a first. And it's. It's uncharted territory for Arwen, isn't it?

[Sara]

I can't help but feel sorry for Arwen. She made a choice. Yes, she made a choice. She made the choice for love. And that's all very grand, but the reality of seeing her husband die has got to be quite the shock for her. And how do. I gotta be honest, I don't think she copes that well.

[Alan Sisto]

No, she doesn't. I mean, you look at what happens to her and we'll see this later on in the episode, but you're right, she doesn't. Again, drawing the Luthien parallel. Right. But it's also different with Luthien because she didn't have to endure a period of time that we're aware of without Baron. They had Their time on their own, on their own little secluded desert island, just the two of them. And we're not really told about like, her having to endure a period of time after Baron's death. But this is really a close up look at the sorrow that an elf has to experience when she chooses mortality. And maybe indeed Luthien did have to experience this. We just didn't get a glimpse of it. So.

[Sara]

Right. Yeah. I always. I don't know, maybe it's my headcanon. I always thought that Luthien and Beren just kind of accepted the gift of.

[Alan Sisto]

Iluvatar together, fell asleep at the same time and woke up on the other side of the world. Yeah, yeah.

[Sara]

Which is quite a lovely thought.

[Alan Sisto]

It is.

[Sara]

But here we have to experience Arwen's bitterness. And again, putting that word bitterness with mortality is so challenging when, you know, we have Aragorn who accepts the gift of Iluvatar and he's so calm and peaceful about it. For him, he says to her, there's more beyond the bounds of this world. He is absolutely certain that actually this is a reward in many ways. And he is okay with it. But Arwen just doesn't know what to do with it.

[Alan Sisto]

Really comes back to the natures. Right. I mean, she's taken on a nature that wasn't inherent to who she was. And that's going to have a cost. And she's now experiencing something that should have been entirely alien to her. And it's a sacrifice that enables the ennoblement of men from here on out through Aragorn, through their son.

[Sara]

But it is a sacrifice.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, it is very real sacrifice.

[Sara]

I think we should acknowledge that 100%.

[Alan Sisto]

And it's a much greater sacrifice for her than it ever was for Aragorn. Oh yes, because it was always going to happen for Aragorn and he was fine.

[Sara]

Yeah, yeah. In many ways it is so much easier for Aragorn. Apart from the fact that he would have known from, you know, whenever it is, we become aware of our own mortality.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

And he would have been pretty young because of course, his father died when he was very, very young.

[Alan Sisto]

A year old, I think it was. Right. Maybe it's two. Yeah.

[Sara]

On top of that, he gets a lifespan that is much longer than the average mortal man. So he's done very well and he's had a great life. He's done everything he set out to do. He's leaving his kingdom in good hands and in good order. So this is not that hard for him.

[Alan Sisto]

No, I'VE done what I came here to do. I've been king for over a century. I've reunited the realms. Right. We haven't had a High King since Isildur for two years. So this is really something else. And he's restored a numinous. Right. We read about the restored house there that the hobbits go and visit him in. You know, he's had. They've had at least the three kids. He's got a son who's ready for kingship. Everything's great.

[Sara]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

There's even a little bit in the whole house of Aorl section where we read about he and Eomer going about and doing these things, you know, after. In the fourth age.

[Sara]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

He's done the great things.

[Sara]

Boys, nights out.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, exactly. And, you know, it's time for him to go. And he's. I'm sure we don't see this in the text, but I'm sure there is a. A part of him that sees her sorrow and is deeply moved and grieved by it, but refuses to sort of give in to that because he needs to show or believes that he needs to show her the strength, the hope, the things that she's struggling to hold on to. I admire that for him. Like, this is a time where maybe being sorrowful with her, in her. I mean, a lot of times when somebody's hurtful, hurt, you come alongside them and you want to be hurt with them and you share in that hurt. Right. That's. That's human. That's empathy, that's love. In many cases, I think here, he knows that the right thing to do is to give her that encouragement and that hope that Estelle, that he is and that he has, because he knows that she's got that sorrow. Right. There's no. There's no hiding that he would have known. And. Yeah, I just. I.

[Sara]

The fact that she's pleading with him would have been enough to tell him. Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Breaking his heart. And that's the thing, you know, he's hurting inside because this woman that he's loved for 120 years, plus the years before that, it's like 160 years he's loved this woman. And yeah, it's got to be hard for him to see this, knowing that he can stay and bring her joy, but it's still going to end. He can't stay forever.

[Sara]

Yes. And for how long is he going to bring her joy if his ending is senility and decrepitude?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

I mean, how much harder in some ways would that be for an elf to see.

[Alan Sisto]

To watch that. To watch.

[Sara]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Because that's. That sort of aging is, again, totally alien to an elf.

[Sara]

And, you know, if we bring that into the primary world, it is very, very difficult to watch an elderly loved one.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

Succumb to senility and. Or decrepitude. It's really, really tough.

[Alan Sisto]

Talk about the bitterness of mortality.

[Sara]

Yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, I think anybody who's faced that, and I can speak from some direct experience, that is really, really hard. I can't imagine it with a spouse, but, you know, with a parent at least. And it is deeply painful. I can. I can. I think he's done the right thing here, you know, in trying to just give her strength as he leaves.

[Sara]

Yeah, I agree. It's part of the human condition, isn't it? Everything actually ends in sorrow. Everything.

[Alan Sisto]

Everything, yeah.

[Sara]

Yes, because it. That is inevitable. I mean, even for those of us who are lucky enough to be extremely happily married and have been for, you know, great long period of time and intend to be for quite a long time.

[Alan Sisto]

As long as you're alive. Yeah.

[Sara]

Well, you know, he puts the bins out and does useful things. Who else is going to do that around? Right. But the fact is that at some point, even in the best of marriages, one person will die.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

I mean, yes, of course, sometimes you go together because, you know, plane crashes are a thing.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, I was gonna say sometimes. Yeah.

[Sara]

Yeah. But in the normal way of things, one person in that pairing will die.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

And that means that the ending of a time of being together, it's. There's sorrow.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

And so what do you do with that? And speaking as somebody who's. My mother has been widowed now for 15 years. It's terrible at the time. Of course it is.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

But you have to kind of look back at the things that were good and hold on to those things.

[Alan Sisto]

And that's something we're going to see that Arwen struggles with a little bit, isn't it?

[Sara]

Yes, yes, indeed.

[Alan Sisto]

We'll come right back for that, Matt. When I think about businesses that are just blowing up, you know, selling through the roof, like Allbirds Shoes or Gymshark, where I've bought some stuff, the first thing that hits me is that they sell a great product or maybe it's a cool brand. But something that people often overlook is the business behind the business that makes selling. And for shoppers, buying simple. And for millions of businesses, that business is Shopify. Fact is, nobody does their selling better than Shopify. The home of the number one checkout on the planet. Their shop pay boost conversions by up to 50%. So way fewer carts are abandoned and more sales go. So if you're looking to grow your business, your commerce platform has to be ready to sell wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling on their feed or in your store. Businesses that sell more sell on Shopify. Upgrade your business and get the same checkout that Gymshark uses. Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com pony all lowercase go to shopify.com pony to upgrade your selling today. Shopify.com pony now folks, a while back I told you about Mando the whole body deodorant. And now that I've had a couple more months to use even more of their products, I just wanted to come back and tell you all just how much I like it. And not just me either. My son, he's 13. He's just at that age where, well, he's having to learn what deodorant actually is. He's been using Mando too. And let me just say, I'm grateful. Mando is a whole body deodorant, so you don't just use it on your armpits. Any place on your body that could use a bit of odor control, you can use Mando there. Yeah, there too. It's proven to block and control odors all day long, actually up to 72 hours, even in this tiny podcast booth. And it's available in solid stick spray or even cream. Now, personally, I like the pro sport scent, but Clover woods is becoming a close second for me. Mando's starter pack is perfect for new customers. It includes both a solid stick and cream deodorants and two more free products of your choice like their mini body wash or the deodorant wipes, which are perfect for travel along with free shipping, of course. And as a special offer for our listeners, new customers get $5 off a starter pack with our exclusive code. Now that equates to over 40% off your starter pack. Just use code [e-mail] s h o p m a n d o dot com and please support our show. Tell them we sent you smell fresher, stay drier, and boost your confidence from head to toe with Mando. Now. Soon we'll get back to Arwen tasting all that bitterness. But before we do, we want to remind you there's a lot more talk going on at the Prancing Pony podcast than just us.

[Sara]

The PPP has an amazing listener community. They're always coming up with great questions and discussions across all our social media spaces. Check out our Common Room on Facebook, our dedicated subreddit, Twitter and more on Facebook.

[Alan Sisto]

Just look for the Prancing Pony podcast. Follow the page to get the news and the new episodes, but you're going to want to join the group for.

[Sara]

Some great discussions on Twitter, Instagram, BlueSky, Twitch, TikTok, and YouTube. We are RancingPonyPod or if you prefer Reddit, find us there at R prancingponypod.

[Alan Sisto]

And if you want daily Tolkien content, check out today's Tolkien times on the PPP YouTube channel and on all of your favorite podcast apps. It's my short format daily show, everything from Tolkien Tuesdays to First Stage Fridays. And then there's my new twice weekly streaming of all fun things Middle Earth on the PPP plays. Be sure to check both of them out on the YouTube channel for all of the PPP productions at YouTube.com prancingponypod.

[Sara]

Right, well, I think we need to get to the point of what happens next, so would you like to take the reading?

[Alan Sisto]

Like might be a strong word, but it is a privilege. Lady Undomiel, said Aragorn, the hour is indeed hard, yet it was made even in that day when we met under the white birches in the garden of Elrond, where none now walk, and on the hill of Keren Amroth, when we forsook both the shadow and the twilight, this doom we accepted. Take counsel with yourself, beloved, and ask whether you would indeed have me wait until I wither and fall from my high seat unmanned and witless. Nay, lady, I am the last of the Numenoreans, and the latest King of the Elder Days, and to me has been given not only a span thrice that of men of Middle Earth, but also the grace to go at my will and give back the gift. Now therefore, I will sleep. I speak no comfort to you, for there is no comfort for such pain within the circles of the world. The uttermost choice is before you to repent and go to the havens and bear away into the west, the memory of our days together, that shall there be ever green, but never more than memory, or else to abide the doom of men. Nay, dear Lord, she said, that choice is long over. There is now no ship that would bear me hence, and I must indeed abide the doom of men, whether I will or I nill the loss and the silence. But I say to you, King of the Numenoreans, not till now have I Understood the tale of your people and their fall as wicked fools. I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the one to men, it is bitter to receive. So it seems, he said, but let us not be overthrown at the final test. Who of old renounced the shadow and the ring in sorrow we must go, but not in despair. Behold, we are not bound forever to the circles of the world. And beyond them is more than memory. Farewell, Estelle. Estelle, she cried. And with that, even as he took her hand and kissed it, he fell into sleep. Then a great beauty was revealed in him, so that all who after came there looked on him in wonder. For they saw that the grace of his youth and the valor of his manhood and the wisdom and majesty of his age were blended together. And long there he lay, an image of the splendor of the kings of men in glory undimmed before the breaking of the world.

[Sara]

Oh, wow.

[Alan Sisto]

Wow. That's always so hard to read.

[Sara]

Yeah. It's really emotional, isn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

It is. Beautifully so, but sorrowfully so. Yeah.

[Sara]

Yes. Yeah, it is. Poor old Aragorn here as well, trying to, you know.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Gotta give you something, right?

[Sara]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

But he reminds her both of their initial meeting when he began to love her. And I think more importantly, even the time on Keren Amroth when they plighted their troth, he reminds her, yeah, we both accepted this doom.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. I mean, he had accepted the doom arguably long before that, but certainly the doom of their loss, he had accepted. Yes. And he asks the really honest question that we talked about before the break. Would you rather wait until I lost my mind and my physical strength? That's a valid question.

[Sara]

I mean, it really is, actually.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, absolutely is.

[Sara]

I do honestly think that that would have been in many ways even harder for Harwin because death is inevitable at the end of that anyway.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, exactly. It doesn't. If 120 years is the blink of an eye, what is the five or six more years that he would have?

[Sara]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Even less than a blink of an eye. It just. You're going to gain so little in exchange for so much suffering. And I think that's his point there. It's like, it is not worth that. You don't want that. I do want to discuss this phrase that he uses, the latest King of the Elder Days. What do you make of that?

[Sara]

Yeah, that's a really good question. First of all, looking at the phrase Elder Days now that used to mean First Age and earlier. In fact, the tale of Years tells us that the name Elder Days is properly given only to the days before the casting out of Morgoth.

[Alan Sisto]

Wow.

[Sara]

But it adds that in the Fourth Age, the earlier Ages were often called the Elder Days. So it does appear that the term has changed meaning over time.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay.

[Sara]

But I think this is actually pretty complex.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

Given who Aragorn is. Right. I mean, he traces his lineage right, the way back to. Better than Luthien.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, right, absolutely.

[Sara]

And Luthien traces her lineage right. The way back to the very beginning, through Melian. Right. So in some ways he could be named, in fact, the latest king of the Elder Days. If we are looking at his lineage through back through Luthien, through Melian. Right. So there is that complexity to add to it. Rather than just thinking this is somebody whose roots are ancient. I think perhaps it's even a little bit more than that.

[Alan Sisto]

I like that complexity because in my mind, I'm just thinking of how words change over time, like the usage of phrases. And of course, when the phrase Elder Days first came around, it would have been in the Second Age and we would have been talking about the. For the fall of Morgoth. But as time progresses, anything that's really in the distant past sort of becomes the Elder Days. You know, I often, even though officially the First Age and earlier, before the casting out of Morgoth is Elder Days. I haven't think about Elder Days as anything pre Fall of Numenor, you know, but really now we learn that even the Third Age is the Elder Days when you're in the Fourth Age. And I guess it's just a reflection of the passage of time that everything is now Elder. But I like the way you put that, that, you know, because of his lineage. I mean, even if you trace it just through Elendil and then back to Elros and you stop there, you're still talking about somebody who was present, you know, at the Fall of Morgoth. Right. The end of the First Age, the casting out of Morgoth, Elrond Elros were around. So, yeah, that's an interesting phrase. I like that he uses it. I like that it's complicated. I like that it makes us ask the question and then he talks about something else that's also confusing. We've talked often about the gift of Iluvatar being death. Right. The gift to men is to not have to be stuck in the circles of the world. So why does he say, give back the gift that makes it sound like he means that the life is the gift, which. I mean, it is in some ways.

[Sara]

It is, isn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

Yes. But it's an interesting way of phrasing it when. And of course, gift here is not capitalized. I think that helps to clarify maybe that we're not talking about the gift of Illuvitar. But it is. It is interesting.

[Sara]

It is. And because of the lack of capitalization of gift, I read it as not meaning literally the gift of Illuvitar. There's no giving that one back. You try and return it, but, you know, it doesn't matter. Even if you have the receipt, you're not getting your money back.

[Alan Sisto]

No. This is all sales final. Yeah.

[Sara]

Yeah. I think in this case it is about the gift of life.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

And we've already mentioned how there is payment to be made at the end.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

And so you have received this gift. The payment is you give it back.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

Right. Thank you very much. I've had a great life.

[Alan Sisto]

I think the gift is the extended life of the Numenoreans. I'm looking at in context. Right. He's talking about the. I'm the last of the Numenoreans, to me, has been given not only a span, thrice that, but the grace to go my will and give back the gift. The gift being the extended lifespan.

[Sara]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Okay. Answered my own question there. But only because you started kind of. You kind of spoon fed the answer. But. Yeah.

[Sara]

But again, I think it's. It's part of the deliciousness of picking over Tolkien. There's so many things to find, even in the teeny, tiny little words.

[Alan Sisto]

And this is such a dense section of the text for that. I mean, this whole story of Aragorn and Arwin, but especially this part, that's why it ended up being a third episode. The poignant truth here, of course, is that there is, as we talked about earlier, literally no comfort for the pain that she's going to suffer now. There's no way to soften that blow. There's no way to make it less painful. You can say all you want, it'd be worse if I stuck around. It doesn't change how much this stinks right now. There is no comfort in the world, no words at all that he could say that would take away the pain she's about to experience.

[Sara]

Right. And I actually think that's a very human thing to think. He's right. There are some things for which there is no comfort.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

Because you can't make it better. You Know, most of us who do think we have some empathy when we are, you know, when we're faced with somebody who is hurting, like you said, we want to sit with that. We want to sit with them. We want to, you know, share in what's going on with them. But another thing we want to do is cure it.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. We want to say it'll be okay. And we want to say, how can we fix this? And you can't fix.

[Sara]

And you just can't. Yes. It's one of the things that great age, as you and I both know, brings that wisdom that actually sometimes you shouldn't be offering a cure.

[Alan Sisto]

No.

[Sara]

You know, you shouldn't be trying to say, oh, it'll be okay, it'll be okay, don't cry.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, my goodness.

[Sara]

Yeah, exactly. Because none of those things are actually true in so many things that go wrong for people in life.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

You know, you're better off saying, I will. I will sit here with you. I will be with you.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes.

[Sara]

I mean, you know, again, when we get to a certain age, you and I have both gone through losses.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes.

[Sara]

Right, that's correct. And the best thing a friend or another family member can do when we've gone through a loss like that is just simply be. Just. Just be there. I don't. I don't need you to wave a magic wand and cure this, because there is no cure. There are no magic words that will take away the pain. But sit with me, be with me. And that is what I need. So Aragon here, I think, is being extraordinarily human, but very insightful and very.

[Alan Sisto]

Wise and very honest like he's been earlier. You know, we talked about this in the passages where he's communicating with Elrond. Like, you know, we kind of teased him, like, was that the best thing to say to your potential father in law? That your time's coming to an end too, pal? But it's what he does, right? He just. He speaks the truth. He is a very honest man. And here it's the same thing. He could try to comfort her, but it would be pointless. He knows it. So he's just going to say, I can't take this pain away. I cannot comfort you. There's nothing I can say to make you feel better about this?

[Sara]

Yeah, because he's not going to change his mind.

[Alan Sisto]

No.

[Sara]

That's the comfort that Arwen is looking for.

[Alan Sisto]

And what comfort would that be? Like we've said a few years of misery and then death anyway. Yes, it's not really much comfort.

[Sara]

That's not comfort at all.

[Alan Sisto]

No, he does offer a little bit though, doesn't he? He offers a lifeline like, well, you could always just change your mind and catch a ship.

[Sara]

Yeah, Yeah. I find it interesting that he suggests this. I mean, is this something that he's held onto, thinking this might be a thing? Because that seems unlikely.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, it does seem unlikely. I mean, he does sort of try to talk her out of it by saying, well, you could go there, but of course then life is going to be nothing but a memory to you. Right? The memory will be there forever. So that means all this sorrow will be there forever. Kind of left unsaid, but yeah, you're right. I mean, he knows that she can't make. He's got to know she can't make that repentance.

[Sara]

She can't change that choice because the choice has been made. Oh yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

He even said that just a few minutes ago. We accepted this doom all the way back then, right? I accepted it when I fell in love with you. You accepted when we plighted our troth on Karen Amroth. So why is he even throwing this out there? As a potential possibility.

[Sara]

Unless maybe it's a way to get her to think that, you know, if she could sail away, if she went west, she would take with her the memories, but that would be it.

[Alan Sisto]

Right?

[Sara]

Whereas he then goes on to talk about beyond the circles of world, where it's more than memory. Again, this is kind of touching on the gift of Iluvatar and the idea that there is something beyond death in which they may be reunited. In which case there would be more than just memory.

[Alan Sisto]

Right? There would be some sort of a reality, whatever that reality might look like.

[Sara]

Yeah, but. Yeah, but Arwen knows. Yeah. And she reminds him that it's no longer possible. She has to abide the doom of men regardless of what she wants. The choice has been made whether I.

[Alan Sisto]

Will or I nil. I love that. That's such a really cool phrase. And she's just like, it does it. There's literally no choice now.

[Sara]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Then we get that acknowledgment that I really love that, you know, mortality is a hard pill to swallow here, right? I mean, I scorned your people, your numenoreans, as wicked fools. She would have known all about that. Yeah, but. But I pity them now and again. I think we always come back and talk into the importance of pity. But I couldn't help but compare this to the elves who delivered the messages to numerous. Right. The ones who are essentially. So which of us should be jealous of the other because we're stuck here? You get to do all these cool things. You get the full measure of free will. Right. We're still bound to the music. So we make our choices, but really our choices don't have a lot of influence on the rest of the world. We don't get to do things that are unwritten. You do, but we're stuck here. Like. Yes, we're kind of jealous of you too, you know.

[Sara]

Yes. I mean, it's got to be kind of wearing. If you. You die at the near Nia, the Nordiad, and then you come back and then there's another battle and you die at that one as well, and then you come back and. Yeah, I mean, you can understand how it will be. Yeah, well, exactly. I mean, there are primary world religions where they have this idea of. Of you are reborn, but this is not a prize, this is not a reward. This is you having not yet earned.

[Alan Sisto]

And now I'm thinking of the bowl of petunias formed by the heart of gold in Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. That right next to the whale that falls. And the only thing that went through the mind of the bowl of petunias was, oh, no, not again. That's just the most random things that pop in my head sometimes.

[Sara]

Oh, that never happens.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, especially with Hitchhiker's Guide, that just.

[Sara]

Happens all the time. That's completely fair. I think one should always call upon the Hitchhiker's Guide along with Monty Python wherever possible.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes. 100%.

[Sara]

Yeah. Yeah. So, yes, there's. There's this whole idea of we have this serial longevity. It's not immortality, it's serial longevity. And it's a whole process to go through. If they die, and they can actually die in Middle Earth, then it's a whole, like, blend you up and pull this bit out and sort out a new body and. And then they've got to do it all over again. And you might think if you, you know, if you're mortal, you might step back and think, well, that's, you know, that's great. That means I don't have to worry about.

[Alan Sisto]

I even get my memories back. I get everything back, really. Because if you were married, you're still married. I mean, with the exception of Fenway and Muriel. So, you know, you come back and your wife's like, wow, this is a better body than you had before you left.

[Sara]

You know, nice six pack, right?

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. Like, yeah, don't get used to it, it's new, right? I'm not going to keep it. Yeah. And so you get everything. And I'm sure immortal looks at that and be like, yeah, I could. I could use that.

[Sara]

Yes. That's because they don't understand. Yeah. How wearing it is to have to keep coming back and keep doing the same thing. And knowing that that is just going to keep going and keep going and keep going until the very, very end.

[Alan Sisto]

And that's the other thing is, you know, we talk about. An Aragorn says this, that beyond the circles of the world. World, there's more than memory. No, he doesn't know that with certainty. Right. This is his. This is his, Estelle. But we do know that there may be nothing at all past the end of Arda. Total annihilation. It's over, everybody.

[Sara]

That's what the elves believe, isn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

The elves believe that so you get to keep coming back and you get to quote, unquote, live forever. But the forever is really just as long as the planet. And then when that's wiped out, we're all done. We don't know what happens after that. Whereas with men, at least in theory, they. They get to continue their life outside the circles of the world.

[Sara]

Yes. So I suppose at the end Arda just gets blown up for a bypass. Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Bringing its guide back into it. I love that. Well, there were the plans. Yes. In the basement, in a locked file cabinet, guarded by a leopard. I haven't read the book in 15 years. I can remember all this. It's mind blowing.

[Sara]

Such a great book when something is memorable.

[Alan Sisto]

Yep, absolutely.

[Sara]

So back to the text.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

Aragorn's last encouragement to Arwen is to not be overthrown. What do you think he means by overthrown here?

[Alan Sisto]

I know, I'm not sure. I'm really trying to. I mean, that's such a unique choice of words here. I mean it's maybe don't lose hope. Don't lose. That's what comes to mind. But for him to use the word specifically overthrown. Let us not be overthrown at the final test. Okay? So let us not be defeated at the final test. Let us not be. You know what? It's definitely that. Because the next sentence is, in sorrow we must go, but not in despair. So that's what being overthrown would look like, to move from sorrow to despair. Would be overthrown, yeah.

[Sara]

Yes. And that would be utterly losing because. Yeah, they're supposed to hold on to this hope.

[Alan Sisto]

It's.

[Sara]

It's part of who they Are. It's part of the truth that they plighted.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[Sara]

All those years back. And for Arwen to be overthrown is for her to completely lose Estelle, to be mired in despair.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[Sara]

And if she's mired in despair, he foresees that she will lose herself.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

And that's another way of being overthrown, isn't it, that you lose who you are to this sorrow.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm not sure to what extent she actually is, though. I mean, there's a part of me that sort of sees her as being at least in part overthrown to the point.

[Sara]

That's the problem, you know? Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, I don't. I love Arwen, don't get me wrong. But.

[Sara]

No, but when we get to the last section, which I'll get to in a little bit, I do think she.

[Alan Sisto]

Is overthrown as despair.

[Sara]

Yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

That is so hard to see.

[Sara]

Yeah, indeed. I mean, he reminds her, yes, we part in sorrow, but sorrow is not, nor does it have to become despair because he is showing Estelle to the very end.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly.

[Sara]

Yeah. And I think that's really important because we'll get to this point in a minute. I think that the way in which he looks after he died is kind of a reflection.

[Alan Sisto]

Very much so. Yeah.

[Sara]

Of his Estelle bit.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. He's definitely, you know, pointing her to that. That unknowable, unprovable hope. Right. That, that it's not an unreasonable hope. It's not like, oh, I hope the weather's nice tomorrow. This is, you know, hope in a greater source. You know, in this case, obviously, it's a hope in Iluvatar and the promise of Iluvatar. But it is still unknowable and unprovable that whatever lies beyond the death of mortal men, beyond the circles of the world, there is some sort of a reality, an experiential place that is, in fact, more than memory. And that's what he's trying to get her to hold on to. Like, look, yes, we have to go through this, but there is something else on the other side.

[Sara]

And this, of course, speaks to Tolkien's own philosophy.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, absolutely does.

[Sara]

So Aragorn takes Arwen's hand as she cries Estelle. And falls asleep. You know, I find it really poignant that she chooses to call him Estelle at the end, given the meaning of the word.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes. I mean, they've been married for 121 years and I don't know what she calls him all the time. I'm sure it's not king.

[Sara]

King. Excellent.

[Alan Sisto]

Right? King. Excellent. Whether it's Elessar or Telkontar or Aragorn. But Estelle does feel like a really very intimate sort of.

[Sara]

It does. It does. But it's particularly poignant given what they've just talked about and what's happening now. The fact that she cries out that word which is also his name.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. And that is the Estelle that. That he's trying to give her. Yeah, yeah.

[Sara]

And. And it is this Estelle and the fact that he makes the choice when he makes the choice and how he makes this choice. I think that this really connects to the revelation of his great beauty. A combination of youth, manhood and age. This almost is. Is part of a reward. Yeah, Isn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

It is.

[Sara]

He's done the right thing the whole way through. He's made the. The right choices. He's done the right thing. He's done his absolute best. And now in death. Yeah, he's pretty damn good.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. And it's. It's also an example to his people. Right. I mean, you know, this isn't just she sees him this way. It is that all who after came there looked on him in wonder. So all of the people, when his body's lying in state, the people of Gondor, certainly those in Minas Tirith would have gone to the House of the Kings and seen him and they would have seen this. And I think you're right. This is like showing them that he did these. He. He did it. Right. He did. This is the way it needed to be and ought to have been. And it sets an example for them who, you know, the ones who are of more pure blood are going to have that choice to make as well, whether to give back the gift or to die unmanned and witless. And I'm sure there aren't a lot of them anymore. Right. I mean, the House of the Stewards certainly would have that. It makes me immediately jump to, okay, what would Faramir. The end of Faramir's life, which would have actually happened before this, almost certainly because he is not going to be of the same kind of bloodline as Aragorn. Would he have also.

[Sara]

You know, I like to think so. Faramir was a good egg.

[Alan Sisto]

He was a very good egg. And I think seeing what Denethor chose would have absolutely been format in his mind.

[Sara]

And I like to think that Eowyn would have arranged a fabulous funeral pyre on a ship that goes out into the sea with the fire burning where.

[Alan Sisto]

He would have joined his Brother.

[Sara]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Who went out by boat down the. Down the Anduin as well.

[Sara]

Head cannon. Accepted.

[Alan Sisto]

I agree. But I got to say, this whole line, and I love that Jackson made sure this line was included in the films. And long there he lay an image of the splendor of the kings of men in glory undimmed before the breaking of the world. It might not be a sentence I ever want to have to diagram, but it is glorious. It is some of the most beautiful prose and it's buried here in the appendices.

[Sara]

I know, I know, but that's why we get to dig it out again.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. It is good.

[Sara]

It is absolutely breathtaking prose. It's Tolkien at his best.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes. Yeah. Is so, so vivid. Right. It just. It draws this image in your mind and it brings you back to the good kings of Numenor. It. It brings all this history together in a single sentence. Fantastic stuff.

[Sara]

Glorious indeed.

[Alan Sisto]

Really is. That's a great way of putting it. Glorious. Yeah.

[Sara]

So we could read this alongside some of the Athrobeth. Not all of it. Otherwise we're going to be here forever. But this discussion that Aragorn and Arwen have here has some resonance with the discussion on life and death between Finrod, an elf, and Andreth, a mortal woman. And when Aragorn tells Arwen, in sorrow we must go, but not in despair, behold, we are not bound forever to the circles of the world, and beyond them is more than memory. We can contrast this with Andreth's statement that the wise among men say, we were not made for death, nor born ever to die. Death was imposed upon us, and that men are not by nature short lived, but have become so through the malice of the Lord of the Darkness, whom they do not name.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. You know, there is so much in the afterbath, and I know at some point we'll actually cover that on the show. Probably. I'm thinking two seasons from now when we cover the great tales. I think the after bet's going to get tied in a lot with Baron and Luthien.

[Sara]

Oh, yes, I'm sure.

[Alan Sisto]

But yeah, I mean, the gift of Iluvatar, it's been problematic to men, to the Atani from the start. In. In one of the footnotes actually to the afterbath. It was note four. Christopher reminds us of the words of Pengalov, the Elvish historian, to Elfwina at the end of the Ainolindele about the mortality of men. The words are, death is their fate. The gift of Iluvatar, which as time wears Even the powers shall envy. Okay, side note. We just talked about elves maybe being envious of the gift of men. Even the Valar, who are also stuck in the world until it ends, are going to probably envy that, coming back to those words. But Melkor has cast his shadow upon it and confounded it with darkness and brought forth evil out of good and fear out of hope. So Andreth's bitter complaint that Iluvatar had forsaken the Etani and that the Valar had ignored them. Certainly not without merit, right? I mean, it's certainly understandable from her perspective. Oh yeah. I mean, all that they'd ever known of Iluvatar was this disembodied voice in the darkness. Most of them. Not even that, really. I mean, it's more like, you know, they knew of the Valar and they only knew of Iluvatar as supposedly their boss. I mean, it's. It's like he's just this mysterious non. Entity to them. The Elder, on the other hand, they were summoned to live in Aman with the Valar. They had firsthand experience of the Valar. They benefited from being in their presence. Certainly very, very, very few men ever set eyes on any of the Valar. I'm thinking of maybe Tuor having his experience with Ulmo. And there aren't a lot more than that, you know. So Andreth tells Finrod the Valar. She said, how should I know? Or any man. Your Valar do not trouble us either with care or with instruction. They sent no summons to us.

[Sara]

Bitterness, right the way through there, isn't there?

[Alan Sisto]

And a little bit of overcorrection on the Valar part. Right? I mean, you know, they. They knew they kind of messed up by dragging the elves off to the Undying Lands that maybe they ought not to have done that. So they sort of overcorrect and like, oh man, whatever. We're just going to leave them alone.

[Sara]

Yes. Yeah. With all of the consequences that come from these decisions. Right. Because there's no getting away from it. Andres states quite clearly that mortality is not a gift. Instead, she counters, dying. We die and we go out to no return. Death is an uttermost end, a loss irremediable and it is abominable. For it is also a wrong that is done to us. Look at that language right there. Abominable that what's being done to them. You know, done in scare quotes or victims.

[Alan Sisto]

Right?

[Sara]

Yes, exactly. So if we combine that with Finrod's lack of knowledge about the gift of Iluvatar because he says, I don't know anything about it. I don't know how it works as well as the elves belief that when Arda ends, their annihilation comes. So is it any wonder then that Arwen fails to have the kind of Estelle that Aragorn shows?

[Alan Sisto]

That's a very good point. I mean, you know, we could talk all day and at some point we will. About Andreth being sort of misled about the nature of the gift. Right. I mean, arguably she. She can only understand what she's experienced, what she's what. What she's been told, what she's historically understood to be true. And it has been like we read the words of Bengalov, death has been, you know, it's had the shadow of Melkor cast upon it. And so men fear it. Men believe it to be the end of things. It is not, but they certainly believe it to be. I wonder, I mean, are there. Are there really a lot of other men who understand that the way Aragorn does? Right? He's got to be in the. The total minority.

[Sara]

Totally. Yes. Yeah. But I think, again, this speaks to Tolkien's own philosophy, doesn't it, that there are some who will hold this to be true and then there are others who. Who just don't.

[Alan Sisto]

Because it's really interesting spin. Because of course, you know, his own personal perspective would have been that death is not a gift in the primary world. It is the result of the fall of man, is the result of sin. He gives that viewpoint to Andreth who, you know, can blame it on the Satan of this world. You know, I mean, again, I'm not, not drawing exact allegories here. I'm just drawing parallels. But, you know, the idea that from Andreth's perspective, death is not a gift because Melkor has cast a shadow on it, you know, certainly that reflects what the primary world beliefs are for Tolkien. It is such a unique change that he made to view death as a gift. And I know he seemed to take some heat on it too. I mean, when we look at the letters, the letters that are written to him by other Roman Catholics who are like, wait a minute, can you explain this?

[Sara]

They totally challenge him on this.

[Alan Sisto]

They totally challenge him on that and on the idea of the elves getting new bodies, Right? Those are the two things that seem to raise. Really get him some. Some letters of question. But he does explain it pretty well. And I think when we get to the story of the After Beth, we'll really dive into those letters as well. But I think you're right, that's. It's a good question to ask. Can Arwen rightly be expected to have the Estelle that Aragorn shows when almost no other man will have it either, really.

[Sara]

Right. He is unusual amongst the mortals anyway in truly believing that death is a gift because yeah, it's a release from bondage. Right. In that, you know, he can lay down all his cares and he can.

[Alan Sisto]

Rest and to do it voluntarily and.

[Sara]

Do it voluntarily and still in some height of, of his manhood, if you like.

[Alan Sisto]

He hasn't been un, you know, unmanned to be witless and unmanned. And I think in a way that does give him a benefit. I mean if, if I were to be told your extended lifespan, which is more than 99.999% of the other people on this earth, you get to live to be 210 years old. My lived experience is going to tell me oh, that must be true. I mean, you know, I'm going to have more than just an omdir hope. I'm going to have this Estelle hope because there's a little bit of suggestion here, evidentially speaking, to back it up because I've gotten to live to be 210 years old and I defeated Sauron and I'm the king and I'm sensing my world weariness and I'm about to lay down my life now if he says, you know, goodbye, I'm going to kiss your hand and then I'm going to go to sleep. And then he goes, man, I just can't fall asleep. I don't know what's wrong.

[Sara]

Takes Melatonin, right?

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. We've got a whole other problem on our hands. But he's got just enough evidence, I think that it makes it a little easier for him. Whereas Arwen doesn't have that.

[Sara]

Yeah. And I do feel sorry for Arwen because of that. Yeah, it's, it's a really fascinating parallel. The much, much longer and more in depth conversation between Finrod and Andreth and this conversation between Arwen and Aragorn here. But it's about essentially the same thing. It really is what happens afterwards.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

Right. And yeah, this is a really.

[Alan Sisto]

The wise have been debating that question for thousands of years. You and I are going to find an answer today.

[Sara]

No, no, I think we'd be very much richer than we are now. But I always thought it was a little bit rich with another understanding of that word that Finrod tries to school Andreth on mortality.

[Alan Sisto]

He tries. I mean, I don't want to give Finrod too hard a time. I mean, we know how much he does genuinely love men, you know, the race of men and. But yeah, he does sort of, I don't know, come across a little condescending, you know. Yeah, he is sort of else playing. That's a good way of putting it. And we will definitely come back to the after Beth in a couple of seasons, but we'll come back to more of Aragorn and Arwen in just a bit.

[Sara]

This episode is brought to you by Pluto tv.

[Alan Sisto]

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[Sara]

Hits like the Walking Dead and Defiance. Feel the free Pluto TV stream now pay never.

[Alan Sisto]

24 chefs 24 culinary showdowns for 24 hours straight. Which chef will out cook outpace out blast the the competition? No Chef Escapes the clock season premiere 24 and 24 Last Chef Standing Sunday, April 27 at 8 see it first on Food Network Stream next day on Max Folks, if you're enjoying the ppp, please consider supporting the show by joining the Fellowship of the Podcast. That's what gives me the time and resources to work on making this show the best that it can be. When you join, you get to be a part of an amazing discord community that includes live episode recordings, monthly hangouts, but you also get those episode postscripts we mentioned earlier. You can get AD free episodes, free merch, and a lot more.

[Sara]

And you can also become part of our Questions After Nightfall episodes or even join us as a guest in the North Wing. So Please go to patreon.com prancingponypod to show your support and join the Fellowship of the Podcast Podcast.

[Alan Sisto]

And you can always help us out by giving us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts and a rating on Spotify. And please do recommend us to your friends. Sara We've just got a couple of paragraphs left in this, but they are powerful, which is why I set them aside for one last reading. Go for it.

[Sara]

Yep, let's draw this tale to a close. But Arwen went forth from the house and the light of her eyes was quenched, and it seemed to her people that she had become cold and grey as nightfall in winter that comes without a star. Then she said farewell to Eldarion and to her daughters, and to all whom she had loved. And she went out from the city of Minas Tirith and passed away to the land of Lorien and dwelt there alone under the fading trees until winter came. Galadriel had passed away. And Celeborn also was gone. And the land was silent. There at last, when the Malorn leaves were falling but spring had not yet come she laid herself to rest upon Kirin Amroth and there is her green grave until the world is changed. And all the days of her life are utterly forgotten by men that come after. And Eleanor and Nifra Dil bloom no more east of the sea. Here ends this tale as it has come to us from the south and with the passing of even star no more is said in this book of the days of old.

[Alan Sisto]

Lots to unpack as we talk about. Oh, man. She's so deep in grief, Arwen, that she takes on a different physical appearance. We get an actual noticeable, recognizable dimming of the light in her eyes. She turns cold and gray. At least to her people. In Gondor, there's a. Those of us who know anybody who's experienced great loss, including ourselves, if that has happened, can certainly identify with that. We see, like, a physical sign.

[Sara]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Of sorrow and mourning.

[Sara]

Yeah. It's like you've been leeched of life.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

And all the light is draining out of her because of this. Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, remember when we talked about two episodes ago, the. The big range of emotions and how she turned and smiled and then she laughed merrily and. But also was able to speak gravy. Like, here. All of that joy is gone. There's no more smile. There's no more light in her eyes.

[Sara]

Well, we are told everything she gained, she has lost. Yeah. And I think we're almost at the ultimate loss here.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, we are.

[Sara]

She says goodbye to her children, to King Eldarion and to her daughters.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

How many and who they were, we're never told, of course.

[Alan Sisto]

Of course. Unless they play a role in history, we don't get to find out. But that means that, you know, her daughter's plural. So they had at least those three children. They may have had more. We don't know anything about them. And it would be interesting. Like what. Who. Who did they marry? Now, they would be mortal because. But they would have so much Elf blood. Yes, they would. They've got to be incredibly fair. Right? I mean, they would be. Daria must be incredibly fair himself. I mean, again, the children of Aragorn and Arwen.

[Sara]

Yeah. They're going to be up there.

[Alan Sisto]

These are going to be stellar people. Not just in looks, but in character and personality and valiance and strength. But yeah. We don't know anything about them.

[Sara]

No, no. I mean, there are a lot of missing women.

[Alan Sisto]

There are.

[Sara]

From Tolkien's text, remember at the top of this episode, I did say that Tolkien's not a misogynist, but he's also not a proto feminist.

[Alan Sisto]

No. That's fair.

[Sara]

Yeah. There are a lot of missing women.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

Cough dwarf women. We'll get to that at some point in the future. Episode.

[Alan Sisto]

Not even that distant episodes.

[Sara]

Yeah, not that distant at all. But these are missing women.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, they are.

[Sara]

They're not even given names. We just know that there are daughters. I'm not even sure why the bothers even telling us because we just have her daughters and that's it.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, we get that a lot in the line of the kings of Gondor. Right. We get the names of the sons. Even if there are more than one son, we're often told their names, even if only one ascends to the kingship, because then we oftentimes get other branches of the royal family and things. But we're literally never given the name of any of the daughters of the kings of Gondor. And you can't assume that they only had sons.

[Sara]

No, I think their line would be very short lived if there's only sons going down there.

[Alan Sisto]

I always found it interesting that they went back to a line of kingship, a line of descent of the kingship to just male primogeniture, that they went away from what Numenor had done, which was to allow the ruling queen, the eldest child would be the monarch, regardless of whether it was a man or a woman. It's interesting that they changed that after Londyl and Isildur.

[Sara]

It is interesting and I don't think we can say, oh, it must be because all of the Numenorean queens were a disaster. Because that's, that's, you know, that's not necessarily the case.

[Alan Sisto]

No.

[Sara]

Because a heck of a lot of the kings were a total disaster as well.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

I think that it is really interesting that they went back to primogeniture and just didn't allow the women to be rulers anymore.

[Alan Sisto]

Right. So much so that when at the end of the kingdom of Arthedain, when Arvedwi tried to claim the throne both through his own descent from Isildur, but also through his wife Firiel, the daughter of Disallowed, it was like, nope, sorry. We reckon the line through the sons only.

[Sara]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay.

[Sara]

Very short sighted, in my humble opinion.

[Alan Sisto]

And a really interesting change. And you want to know when that change took place? Because we don't know anything about Elendil in terms of. I don't believe we're ever told that he had daughters. We know that he had Isildura and Anarion, but we don't know presence or absence of daughters. And then there's Isildur, who we don't know. But at some point, somebody had to make the decision that their eldest child, who's a girl, is not going to inherit the throne. Somebody had to make that call. And it would have been interesting to see why they made that call, given that Numenor had done the opposite. Yes, I'm getting sidetracked. But it's an interesting thing because it is, you know, certainly by now, you know, Eldarion is the eldest. At least in this case, we're led to believe that he's the eldest child.

[Sara]

Well, we're led to believe he's the eldest child. Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, he was born a year after they were. They were wed. So unless. Unless.

[Sara]

Unless they were really on it. Yes, it does mean that they. They don't have to make the choice about, shall we, you know, allow one, Allow one of the daughters to. I know, does make things easier.

[Alan Sisto]

See your eyes roll when you said allow.

[Sara]

Actually, I think I may have rolled my eyes so much that people might have heard it. Never mind you seeing it.

[Alan Sisto]

That's fair.

[Sara]

So Arwen leaves Minas Tirith and she heads to Lorien. And she lives there by herself until some point in the winter. And she's by herself because we're reminded that Galadriel has passed. It's interesting that Tolkien uses the phrase that Galadriel has passed because, of course, that's a phrase that we use here in our primary world as a phrase for death. Right. But here it's past, as in she has passed over the sea. She left, of course, at the end of the Third Age with Elrond, Bilbo, Frodo and Gandalf. Right. She left the armed totty behind for a little while, didn't. She didn't take Celeborn with her.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[Sara]

Because we're told that Celeborn was gone. The Tale of Years tells us that a few years after Galadriel left, he grew weary of his realm and went to Imladris to dwell with the sons of Elrond. So he hangs out with Elladan and Elro here for a while.

[Alan Sisto]

His grandsons.

[Sara]

Yeah, exactly. Rather than going to join Galadriel Straight away, we know he does go later, but we don't actually know anything about Eldan and Elro here.

[Alan Sisto]

We don't. And that's another one of those questions that people like to argue about. I see no reason for them to have chosen mortality. They didn't fall in love with mortal human women. There would have been no reason for them to stay. I've heard some make the argument that they, they missed that choice because they didn't go with Elrond when he sailed. And I can understand that if we're looking at a real technical interpretation of the language, but I. I think they went. I think they, you know, were always going to be of Elf kind. There was no reason for them to choose otherwise.

[Sara]

Even if they missed out because they didn't go on the ship with dad, yeah, that would have been a choice. They would have known if they hadn't got on the ship with dad that they would be mortal. So, again, I agree with you. That's not a choice I see them making. No reason. Exactly. Yeah, exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

I just want to do a real quick sidebar. I know it's got to be quick because we're already running a little bit long, but this line about the land of Lorien, how after we hear about Galadriel being passed away, Celeborn also gone, and the land was silent. Now, for me at least, that hits harder than I thought it would. Of course, it's empty now. That's the clear meaning. Right. But when I was covering Lorien for three weeks on Middle Earth Map Mondays on today's Tolkien Times. So for those of you who don't listen to today. Exactly. If you don't listen or watch to today's Tolkien Times, you should, because I did a three part series on Middle Earth Map Mondays on Lorien. And there I learned, as Christopher points out, Loranand was the Nandarin name of this region. And it contained the Elvish word meaning golden light, Valley of Gold. The Quenya form would be Lauranande, the Sindarin Glornan or Nan Laur. And that's the end of his quote. But what's interesting about all this gold is that it's connected to the presence of the mallorn trees, trees that were not brought there until Galadriel's time. But the place existed. So it had a name before that. What was it? Later on, we learned that the name Loranand is said to have been itself a transformation of a yet older name. And that older name was Lindoranand Veil of the Land of The Singers, remember the elves that broke off the great journey. They were teletari. Right. We read, then one arose and the host of Olawe Christopher points out that there is here no doubt present the name by which the Teleri called themselves Lindar, the Singers. So now we've got a land that was originally the veil of the Land of the Singers, and it's now utterly silent.

[Sara]

Oh, you're right, that hits hard.

[Alan Sisto]

It's just a. Mmm. You know, another one of these little.

[Sara]

Twists really underscores the loss, doesn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

Yes. The loss that all of Middle Earth is experiencing. I mean, yes, we're getting Arwen's loss, but now we look at this land that has such a rich history, even before Galadriel and Celeborn. But now that they've left and now that it's silent, there's such a loss, that's such a tragedy that this place that was the home of the Singers is now quiet.

[Sara]

That's heartbreaking.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

So still in winter, Sometime early in fourth, age 121, Arwen laid herself down upon Kerin Amroth, which, of course is where she and Aragorn had plighted their troth and died. Yeah, and there's another poignant bit of.

[Alan Sisto]

Prose here, isn't it?

[Sara]

There is her green grave until the world is changed and all the days of her life are utterly forgotten by men that come after. And Eleanor and Nifradil bloom no more east of the sea.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, that's. I mean, it's not a mirror image or an inverse image of Aragorn's death because we're not looking at her body, but we're looking at the memory of her grave instead. And it is sort of flipped, right? I mean, this is not, you know, this majestic, you know, the glory of the splendor, the kings of men. This is. This is all sorrow. It is all. This is where she lays until these things happen, until the world has changed. And then this bad thing has to happen too. Right. The only time, the only when this grave goes away, it's going to be because all the days of her life are utterly forgotten by everybody. Until she's nobody, until she's lost to history.

[Sara]

And Eleanor and Niferdil, such a contrast with Aragorn.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sara]

You know, there he is in Rath Dainan.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

And, you know, he will have a.

[Alan Sisto]

Plunder of the kings and.

[Sara]

Yeah. And she died alone.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

Totally in silence. He is utterly forgotten.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that's the thing. I mean, like, he's the memory of this grand thing right before the world was broken. And she is doomed to lie here until she's totally forgotten. It's really deeply sad. And then, remember, a couple episodes back, we talked about this. When Aragorn and Arwen were on this hill walking barefoot amongst the Eleanor and Nithra Dil. We talked about how the presence and the absence of those flowers play a role in the story. And here it is. And it's. It's going to be the absence of those flowers that indicate that her green grave is no longer here. That it's been forgotten. Her entire life has been forgotten.

[Sara]

So I have a question just to insert here. Right. When Peter Jackson did this scene in the film, right, Arwen looked exactly the same.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes.

[Sara]

Like she had not aged at all. And yet she is mortal. So when she goes to Karen Amroth does she look exactly as she did before or has she begun to age?

[Alan Sisto]

I think she's aged. And I think part of the reason why Jackson did it that way if I'm remembering the context it's actually been a little while since I've seen the films. Elrond is saying this about what Arwen is going to experience. So she is seeing a vision in her mind of these moments that are going to happen in her future. So I don't think she's seeing herself as aged. She's seeing herself as herself in the future. And Aragorn has aged. We know that she'll actually age because she must be a mortal woman, Right? Yeah, she became a mortal woman, you know, earlier. Much earlier. Certainly not only after Aragorn's death. She's been mortal for a while now. Long lived, but mortal. So, yeah, I think combined with the sorrow and grief that she's experienced. Right. The lack of light in her eyes, the coldness and grayness in her skin. I think we're also going to be seeing visible signs of aging.

[Sara]

Yeah, Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I think she's. I mean, she's not going to look like, you know, a crone, you know, who's been around for a hundred years. She's still going to have her Elvish beauty. I mean, you think even of Morwen at the end, when Hurin encounters her at the end of her life, how she was older and she still looked old, but he knew this was Morwen. I mean, like. So I don't think she's even going to look that old because she's not, you know, she was not born immortal. But I think. I think you. You're onto something there. I think she will have aged. The sorrow alone will have aged her.

[Sara]

Yes, very true. So finally, it's the end of the story.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

And Tolkien writes that with Arwen's death, no more is said about those older days.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, well, in the postscript for this episode, we're going to talk at length about Christopher Tolkien's understanding of the importance of this story and how this whole idea about no more is said about these older days. That might very well have been an indication of his intention for this story to stand as the final element in the Lord of the Rings. Well, there at last, when the ale was gone but the mail had still not yet come, he laid himself to rest upon the bar at the prancing Pony. And there is his grave until the world has changed.

[Sara]

Well, that's a cheery note to finish on.

[Alan Sisto]

What does Barlow and have for us tonight?

[Sara]

Well, hopefully a large pint of something after that.

[Alan Sisto]

I was going to make him the image of the splendor of barkeeps, but. Oh, man.

[Sara]

Well, I suppose the question tonight would be, why is Arwen's ending so sad?

[Alan Sisto]

Ooh. Why is it so sad? Is it sad? I mean, I look back at Aragorn and I don't know that it's sad to him. I mean, he doesn't know what Aragorn's. What Arwen's specific end is. And Is that your question? Like Arwen's, it's not just, why is her mortality sad? Why is her ending.

[Sara]

Why is what she comes to at the end? Why is that so sad?

[Alan Sisto]

Because it does feel in so many ways like despair. This is just months after he dies. You know, it's still winter, and she lays herself down to die. We know this is less than a year after the death of Aragorn. So she's got her son, she's got at least two daughters.

[Sara]

She didn't have to go off and die alone.

[Alan Sisto]

No, no. And though she's mortal, she undoubtedly did not have to die yet. It does feel a little bit like that. But I like to hold on to the idea that she's choosing to accept what Aragorn has said, that there is something beyond the circles of the world and now she's just eager to get there. That she's like, all right, it's been a little while. I've gotten past the immediate shock and loss. I'm going to choose to believe what you said about that there is more than memory beyond the circles of the world. And I'm.

[Sara]

Then lays herself down on Karen Amroth.

[Alan Sisto]

That's My hope. I mean, I think the other thing that's sad is the reality that at some day, at some point, men will forget about her story and that Eleanor and Niferdil will no longer bloom east of the sea, that time will continue, and that history will turn this into something that isn't remembered. That's a very stark and poignant reminder that everything we do is temporary and will eventually be forgotten.

[Sara]

It's all part of mortality, isn't it? All ends. It's the same for us, really, isn't it, in the primary world that unless you become super ridiculously famous, the chances are there's going to come a time when your name is no longer remembered.

[Alan Sisto]

Correct.

[Sara]

And for most of us mortals, that happens when the last person who knew you dies and you die utterly to the world at that point. That's what I've always kind of believed. When you know, the very last person who knew you or knew your view is. Is gone. That's it. Because that's just what mortality is. Unless your name gets written down in the history books for some reason, you know, that doesn't happen to the vast.

[Alan Sisto]

Majority of us famous, but it's. No. You talked about fame, but I kind of feel it's more like a historical significance because we can think about famous, you know, movie stars or musicians or celebrities of any kind. 100 years from now, very, very few of those names will be remembered. But the historically significant events, you know, those are the ones that people will. Will remember. But you're right, there's so few people named in history books of significance.

[Sara]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, how many people can we name?

[Sara]

The vast majority of us pass through and are forgotten because that is what mortality is. And that's why, you know, you have to focus on living the life that you have and making the most of that life and doing everything with it that you can. Yeah, because. Yeah, yep. And you will be utterly forgotten, because that is exactly what it is.

[Alan Sisto]

That's the nature of mortality. And I think that's another element to the sadness for Arwen, because it shouldn't have been that way for her. Right. I mean, for her as an elf, as an immortal, or a surly Longeval elf, her name should have been remembered for a lot longer. And. And I suppose the comfort is that because the Lord of the Rings came to us, her name is never forgotten. But that's, you know, that's not. I think the point that we're supposed to take from this. I think it's more like what you said you know now that she is immortal, there's going to come a time where she is forgotten.

[Sara]

Right. The whole story of the tale of Aragorn and Arwen is a tale about the human condition.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes. Yes. Because it's the human condition. That she had no idea what it was going to entail. And that, I think is one of the things that makes it so hard for her and why it does feel a little bit like despair when she leaves. Even if in my mind it's maybe not despair at the very end, but. But a matter of like, okay, I'm on my way, you know, Yeah, I certainly hope that's the case. But, yeah, there's a lot of sorrow in her death because she's leaving everyone behind. And it's a reminder to us of our own mortality. And the fact that, like you said, once the last person who knew us dies, there's no more memory of us in the world.

[Sara]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a hard thing to accept.

[Sara]

It is. But it is an inevitable part of life. So we have to really, we really do.

[Alan Sisto]

And that exciting note, folks, on that wonderfully uplifting note, but nonetheless. That's right. Yeah. Get it. Get a glass of your favorite drink. That does wrap it up for another episode of the Prancing Pony Podcast. But please be sure to come back next week when we jump ahead to Appendix A3 as we begin our five week look at everyone's favorite stunted people.

[Sara]

The dwarves, on behalf of all short people. Oi.

[Alan Sisto]

Hey, it's not my fault. That's what the elves called them. The elves are just brutal, right?

[Sara]

Yes. Yes. The elves aren't always right.

[Alan Sisto]

They call, call the men the sickly, the aftercomers, all these other things.

[Sara]

Because elves aren't one bit arrogant.

[Alan Sisto]

Not at all. Or condescending or self righteous or anything.

[Sara]

Any of those things. Anyway, Alan and I want to thank the members of Team ppp, no matter what height they are. Editor Jordan Runnells Barleyman Becca Davis, social media manager Casey Hilton, Event and Patreon community coordinator Katie McKenna, graphic artist Megan Collins and website guru Phil Dean.

[Alan Sisto]

Please take a minute to check out theprancingponypodcast.com that's where you're going to find our show notes, outtakes, prancing Pony ponderings, and our online storefront where you can get PPP merch featuring all the great episode artwork that Megan's been doing for the show since the start of season eight.

[Sara]

Yes, indeed. You'll also want to visit our library page because the Prancing Pony Podcast is After all, a podcast about the books. So if you're interested in a book we've mentioned on the show, you'll find a link for it in our library. And we do get a small amount of compensation when you make your purchase. And we thank you for that.

[Alan Sisto]

Indeed we do. And I realize I've got a typo in there. It's since the start of season seven. We're in season nine now, and she's been doing the chapter art since the beginning of the Return of the King. So books five and six, which would be season seven and eight, and now, of course in season nine, all the cool appendices art that she's been doing.

[Sara]

And can I just say, it is great episode artwork.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm so glad. Okay, this is worth it. I'm doing this. We also want to thank our patrons, by the way, at the Kir Dan's contribution tier. I'll start with Demay in Alaska, Chad in Texas, Lance in New Jersey, Joseph in Michigan, Kathy from North Carolina, Carlos in California, Brian in the uk, Jerry from Washington, Joe in Washington, Irwin from the Netherlands, Ben in Minnesota, Anthony in Texas, Zaksu in Illinois, Sarah in New Jersey, Joshua in Massachusetts, Lucy in Texas, Keith in Alabama, Erica in Texas, and Vivian in California.

[Sara]

And there's also James in Massachusetts, Ann in Kentucky, Sean in New Jersey, Mason in California, Maureen from Massachusetts, Olivia in London, Robert in Arizona, Nick in Wisconsin, Lewis in South Carolina, Thomas in Germany, Craig in California, Bailey in Texas, Kevin in Massachusetts, Julie in Washington, Bruce in California, Joe in Maryland, Nathan in Arizona, and Kevin in Pennsylvania. Thank you all so very much for your support indeed.

[Alan Sisto]

Thank you so much, folks.

[Sara]

Now make sure you don't miss any episodes of the Prancing Pony Podcast. Subscribe now through Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or your favorite favorite podcast app.

[Alan Sisto]

And one last thing. As always, don't forget to send your thoughts, comments, and, well, most of all, what you do. If you had Lorian all to yourself to parliament@the prancingponypodcast.com like party time.

[Sara]

It's a rave down in Lorian, folks, right?

[Alan Sisto]

The trees are still there.

[Sara]

And if you want your voice literally heard, well, just send us audio of your question. Visit pod inbox.com prancingpoint pony pod and record your question for us. Please be sure to still email the question to Barleyman, though.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. And even though Barliman's been a lot more reliable lately, there is still a lot of mail to sort through. We'll try to get to you just as soon as we're able. As always, though, this has been far too short a time to spend among such excellent and admirable listeners.

[Sara]

But until next time, however, farewell, folks.