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The Prancing Pony Podcast
381 – The Bywater Village Committee — an interview with Wētā Workshop’s Darren Ormandy
02:03:32
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- [00:00]
Alan Sisto
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- [03:25]
James Tauber
That's right, we're setting aside the appendices and heading back to the Shire. Folks, pull up a bench in the common room and join us. I'm James Tauber, the Sage of the south, and I'm here with the man of the west and Alan Sisto, folks.
- [03:38]
Alan Sisto
Later this week, Weta Workshop, the creative force behind the visualization of so many of the places, things and moments in Middle Earth that we love, will be releasing their first video game, Tales of the Shire.
- [03:51]
James Tauber
Part of the cozy game genre. Think farming, cooking, fishing, decorating your hobbit hole, and so on. Tales of the Shire looks to be our best chance to experience life as a hobbit. And today we're sitting down with the game writer of Tales of Shire, the to talk about the game.
- [04:07]
Alan Sisto
That's right. Darren Ormandy is not only the lead writer for Tales of the Shire, he also leads the game studios narrative team. He's been hard at work tackling the stories within the game as well as the dialogue for all the characters. A huge task in a game that will revolve around friendships with all the other hobbits. He is what? A Workshop's resident Tolkien lore expert. And that's not just a random title that we bestow upon him. He also happens to tutor courses on Tolkien at Oxford University. So he pretty much has my dream jobs. Folks, Please welcome Darren Ormandy to the Common room.
- [04:38]
Darren Ormandy
Hello. Hello to you both. Great to be here. It was funny, it sounded like hard work when you described it. I was Thinking, that's actually quite a lot of hard work, isn't it? It hasn't felt like it.
- [04:48]
Alan Sisto
That's right. Don't undersell yourself. You know, make sure folks know you're really slaving away there.
- [04:52]
Darren Ormandy
No, no, I can't lie, it's been an absolute joy.
- [04:55]
James Tauber
I can imagine. I was going to say, hard work doesn't seem so hard when it's fun.
- [04:59]
Alan Sisto
Exactly.
- [05:00]
James Tauber
Anyway, let's go ahead and get this conversation started, Alan.
- [05:04]
Alan Sisto
Yeah. Well, we do ask this first question of anybody who comes onto the Prancing Pony podcast, and I'm sorry we can't give you an exception. What was your first experience with Tolkien's works? And what is it about Tolkien that always draws you back for more?
- [05:15]
Darren Ormandy
Oh, that's a big answer. A short one about how I discovered Tolkien. I first came across Tolkien when I was 11 years old. A public speaking competition. And one of the people in the public speaking competition read a stretch of prose and he read Gandalf's Fallen Moria, which was obviously a massive spoiler, but that was the first. I was sort of going, what's that story? I was a wizard and stuff like that. And it lodged in my mind as something that was. It really piqued my curiosity. But when I was. A few years later, When I was 15, I lived in Devon, which is a very beautiful part of the west country of England. And it was very beautiful. It was quite isolated. And I think I was having sort of mixed feelings about how I felt about living there. We'd moved from quite an urban setting, but it was the Shire. I mean, there were tiny rivers, there were tiny little log fallen logs that you could cross. There were big moors with standing stones on top of them that sort of loomed down. And I just remembered one day thinking, oh, Lord of the Rings. I read Lord of the Rings before the Hobbit. I thought, lord of the Rings. Must try and read that. And I just very quickly went, picked up this tome of a book and after about 10 pages just started going, I really don't want this to end. And I read it as slowly as I could, basically somewhat at the cost of my exams, at the time supposed to be revising for my exams. And instead I spent myself painstakingly rereading episodes from Lord of the Rings. But it completely changed my life and it opened up the world that I lived in. I suddenly was. I could literally feel like I was there. So it really did change so many things about me, I think. And it's remained a massive part of my life in a way that I could never have dreamt of. I'm so feel very, very fortunate, very blessed that that's been the case because, and I'll give you a couple of examples, when I was in Oxford, first off, I used to work in Oxford years and years ago, and there was the census, the sort of once every 10 year census in Oxford. And I got a job going around knocking on people's doors and doing the census. There's one house I could never get an answer in. I was like, oh, I'll never get an answer in this place. I was liter last kind of, we've been these number of times, not replied, you're gonna have to send your stuff through. And this old lady answered the door and she said, oh, do come in, do come in. She was really polite and she said, just wait in my study and said, I just need to finish getting changed. So she, she left me down there for about 10 minutes. Now, this was in the very early 90s. And she had a bookcase that looks somewhat similar to the ones I can see behind YouTube, just crammed with Tolkien stuff, some of which I hadn't seen. And I just thought, wow, she's a major fan. I thought, this is really great. So when she came downstairs, I'm so sorry, I said, no, no, no, that's, that's fine. It's actually, I'm really enjoying your collection of Tolkien. I'm a big fan myself. And she went, oh, he was my father. And it was Priscilla Tolkien. Yeah, yeah. Oh, my goodness. I know.
- [08:01]
Alan Sisto
That's breathtaking.
- [08:03]
Darren Ormandy
Breathtaking. It's in the word. And so I, and when I actually sort of, sort of, I think because I think because I rocked on my heels, I kind of found myself looking around the place a bit more. And then on her mantelpiece, all those photographs you see from the biographies, all the family photographs and everything else like that. And I was so tongue tied, you know, if there's a moment in life, I wish I could revisit it as that one, because so much I could have asked her. And I couldn't think of anything to say except for, I'm so happy to meet you. And at the end of it, she was, she was incredibly gracious. And she just said at the very end of it, as we were saying goodbye, said, it's such a pleasure to meet another enthusiast for my father's work. And I thought, how incredible. And this, I think, is characteristic of both his family and obviously Professor Tolkien himself. But just that modesty, you know, Humility, because I found myself going, thinking to myself, I didn't say it. I thought it's hardly niche. I mean, it's Tolkien. There's a lot of us out there, you know. But she was absolutely wonderful. Wonderful. So that's one of the times when Tolkien has come into my life in a completely unexpected way. And yeah, it's a lovely. I haven't shared that story very often, but I really. I thought you guys might appreciate it.
- [09:18]
Alan Sisto
Thank you. Yeah. I'm so glad you did. I. I'm trying to put myself in your shoes and I think you got out more words than I would have comes to mind. And that's about it.
- [09:31]
Darren Ormandy
This is one of the. The children who, you know, that the Hobbit was written for. I mean, she would be sitting on the floor while he told the story. I mean, oh, how I wish. How I wish I could have that conversation again.
- [09:42]
Alan Sisto
Thinking of all the letters for Father Christmas and all of them.
- [09:44]
Darren Ormandy
I know, exactly. I mean, just the more you think about it, the.
- [09:48]
Alan Sisto
Yeah.
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Darren Ormandy
More kind of anxiety.
- [09:51]
Alan Sisto
So much emotion just, Just wells up in the idea.
- [09:54]
Darren Ormandy
Yeah, yeah. But that was, that was a wonderful encounter, a wonderful experience. So.
- [09:57]
Alan Sisto
Yeah.
- [09:58]
Darren Ormandy
But yes, I mean, changed my. My life, as I say. And I mean, I think I've. I've been very, very lucky. Tolkien's played a major part in my life and I just think that's. To be able to do that as part of what I do for a living is just such a privilege. And the. It's not just the power of the stories which are remarkable, it's not just the depth of the created world because, you know, it is such a. To swap to another author. It is such a rabbit hole, isn't it? And I mean, you know, when you find yourself pouring over and getting delight from the histories of Middle Earth, you just think this stuff just never ends. And there's stuff that's still unpublished, you know, there's still material that he wr. And the family have, you know, and that I think sooner or later will come into. Will be seen as such a. And even things like the letters, you know, the re edition of the collected letters. I mean, it. So wonderful, you know, I mean, you just feel like you can hear. Feel like you're eavesdropping, sitting in the same room as the man himself, you know.
- [10:56]
Alan Sisto
Exactly. Sometimes it feels almost too personal. Like, was I supposed to know this?
- [11:00]
Darren Ormandy
You know, I mean, yes, some of.
- [11:01]
Alan Sisto
The letters, the letters to his sons are so. Especially I'm thinking of the ones that he wrote to Christopher. After. After his wife passed away.
- [11:10]
Darren Ormandy
Yes.
- [11:10]
Alan Sisto
And Edith had died. And he just. His heart is just.
- [11:14]
Darren Ormandy
Oh. I mean.
- [11:15]
Alan Sisto
And. Oh, my word, I feel like I'm, like, maybe I should walk away.
- [11:22]
Darren Ormandy
Yeah, exactly. I think what was so moving about that? As he says, he sort of asks his children for permission to put Lucian on her headstone, you know. Yes. And he sort of said, like. I think he's paraphrasing it somewhat, but it's sort of like, I sort of understand if you don't feel comfortable me doing that, but it is something important to me. Obviously, he talks. Yeah. There's beautiful quotes about her dancing in the field of hemlocks at Ruse, you know, but then he. What I think is very moving is that they obviously gave him permission to do that, or they. I'm sure it was far more affectionate than that. Yeah. And then when he died, they had Behrend written next to him, you know.
- [11:58]
James Tauber
Yes.
- [11:58]
Darren Ormandy
Which I don't. I don't know or would have expected he ever would have asked for. So, you know, so it's very, very sad and very moving. As you mentioned, you know, I'm very fortunate to be able to tutor courses in Tolkien in the Oxford summer schools, and that's been great. Well, it's beyond great. It's such a privilege. And the. I take the students up there to Tolkien's grave, and it's. I don't know if you've ever had a chance to go there in the cemetery. It's such an unassuming grave, you know. It is. It's one of the small ones there, I think, for both of them. Yeah.
- [12:29]
Alan Sisto
Especially considering who they are.
- [12:31]
Darren Ormandy
Well, exactly. Yeah. And. But it's just covered in so many beautiful little artifacts. People just leaving so many personal things, you know. Yeah. Took a group of students up here, if any of them are listening, I hope they don't think I'm sort of betraying any confidences here, really. But we just stood around the grave and we just said. Well, I just suggested that we just say something about what Tolkien means to us, you know, and there was a lady from Iceland on my course, and she was in her early 30s, maybe late 20s, early 30s. And she was very goth. I mean, she just wore black the entire time. And on that particular day, she was in this really sort of elegant pink dress. I mean, it's beautiful, beautiful dress. Which itself was a bit of a surprise. And then we were just going around each time. She hadn't really said very much during the lessons and the sessions and stuff. As we went around, she just started talking in Elvish by his graveside. Oh, wow. And it was just so powerful. And she had a really Icelandic sort of accent and everything. It just sounded so powerful. And it was a really stunning moment, you know. And then afterwards, she shared about the fact that she was very lost as a teenager. She hadn't, like, she really had lots of problems and everything. And she said encountering Lord of the Rings and reading Lord of the Rings just completely transformed her life, you know, and then. And now she's a mother and, you know, happily married and everything else like that. So it's wonderful. You can see how, you know, it's. It goes far beyond being a set of entertaining stories. It goes far beyond being, you know, a tremendous creative imagination. It actually. There's some really fundamental things I think, that Tolkien can give us in a world where, you know, we, like every era, we face lots of challenges, you know, and his messages of hope against despair, of fellowship, companionship, loyalty, in the face of, you know, when we're often being encouraged to be selfish or to not want to. Or to look down or feel alienated from others and everything, I think there's a wonderful humanity that I think is just so powerful. You know, I could talk a lot more about this, but I feel like.
- [14:37]
Alan Sisto
I'm sure you will. Yeah.
- [14:38]
James Tauber
I was going to say we'll get into some more of that a little later on, but I did want to ask you, how did the whole teaching talking at Oxford come about?
- [14:47]
Darren Ormandy
I used to create live events at the Tower of London. I was a manager there, putting together all the life historical events. So I had battering grams, knocking down the gates at the Tower of London. I executed Amberlynn at the Tower of London. You know, it was. It was another great job. It was a really great job. Yeah, yeah. And then I wanted to. At the time, I was sort of thinking I'd progress in. In that direction. I needed to do a master's degree to get to. Because it's a very intellectual job. You know, you need a lot of research. I was doing the jobs, but I felt very strongly that I needed to get proper training. I looked at a bunch of master's courses, and then to my surprise, one came up at Oxford, which is starting. I thought, I have no chance at all of getting this. I mean, I have fairly bad academic record as a, you know, from until I'm 21. Very, very middling, if not poor, you know, well below average. Mainly because I was spending all my time reading, talking, and not study I wouldn't recommend doing what I do, but it does work out okay. Yeah, I was. So my academic record was terrible. I thought, I'll never get in. But I just had a number of huge good fortunes. I ended up talking to one of the. I didn't know she was and actually was one of the main professors on the course. And she thought it was brilliant that I was at the Tower of London creating historical events. She thought it was most exciting thing ever. So I got an interview. And then in the interview, they were very kind to me. In my interview, they asked me to kind of basically act out what I did for a living, just to see how quick I was on the historical details and everything else on that. So that was great. And I got in, to my astonishment, I got in to do a Master's at Oxford. So I did that course and I generally took the opportunity to. When they said, does anybody want to do a presentation? I generally speaking, stood up and said, yes, I would. And at the end of it, they just said it was literally the last day of my course, I was delivering my dissertation. And one of them staff came up to me, said, what are you doing tomorrow? And I mean, the honest answer that is going to be, well, I'm going to be recovering from what I'm going to do tonight, my Masters. But I went, nothing, why? And I said, oh, somebody's. There's been a problem. Somebody can't make it for a course tomorrow. Can you come in tomorrow and do a session on Shakespeare Now? I used to be an actor. I used to be a professional actor in England. I worked at the Royal Shakespeare Company and did a lot of Shakespeare, Shakespearean acting. That was what they were thinking of. They thought it might be really interesting to get somebody who's actually been an actor on a big stage to talk about Shakespeare's. I just did it. And then I got really good feedback. So I said, oh, actually, you did really well. Do you want to do a little bit more of this? And to be quite honest, at the time, I mean, this is a strange thing to admit, but really all I was thinking I was going to get from all of this was just one of those things about, you know, two truths and a lie. I have taught Oxford universe. I thought, well, you know, I'm going to carry this away with me from this experience. And. But actually, it just sort of developed from there, really. They just kept asking me to come back and you don't turn down an opportunity like that. And then a couple of years ago, they were launching A new course, and they made me the program director of the course. So I sort of run the academic side and did a lot of the. The more sort of formal social activities that the thing. And it was at Merton College, which. Yeah, yes, exactly. Yeah, Merton College. So, as you guys obviously know, very, very connected with Professor Tolkien. So they wanted me to come and do my Shakespeare courses because that's what I was known for. And I just said, yeah, I can do that and I can do this course. I said, but I'd really like to teach talking course. And I thought, you know what? If I don't ask, I'll regret it forever. Yeah, I'm just gonna throw it out there, you know? And they went, yes, yes, that would be fine. Yeah, you think that would go down very well. I was unbelievable. So I'm teaching a course on Tolkien at Merton College, and I did. I taught a course on the first stage.
- [18:33]
Alan Sisto
Oh, on the first stage, yeah.
- [18:35]
Darren Ormandy
Really went into the whole kind of spread of the first age, and it was just really great fun. This is when that story I said about earlier, about visiting Tolkien's graveside, those were the participants on that course. Yes, it was absolutely wonderful. And I mean, one of the sites which I actually didn't know about, but there's the Tolkien table in Merton College. Right. And I wasn't actually aware of it, though. Well, now I am. I can see so many photographs of Tolkien Merton are actually taken at that spot because the college of. Saying he used to spend all his time there, you know, And I was like, oh, well, that's. Yes, obviously, was a very important place. So I actually did my lesson on Beren and Luthien with the students sitting at the Tolkien table on a bright summer's day. And we just did the course. We did the whole session there. You know, I mean, what an absolute. What an absolutely marvelous privilege. You know, I was just. I find it very humbling, you know, when I say I don't feel I deserve it. I quite honestly don't think anybody could ever feel they deserve it.
- [19:27]
Alan Sisto
That's the thing. And the minute you do, you know, you don't.
- [19:29]
Darren Ormandy
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah. And then I was teaching Lord of the Rings last year. I taught a course on Lord of the Rings. Lovely time. I went to Sarehole Mill, actually. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That was such a good place to go. I'm unashamedly plugging it because I actually thought it was going to be the worst field trip in the world, because I was just going to suburban Birmingham, you Know, the whole point of it being, you know, like, if we know anything about it, we know that it's all been built over. I mean, that's one of the key inspirations for Tolkien.
- [19:59]
Alan Sisto
It's nothing like it was when he.
- [20:01]
Darren Ormandy
Wrote the Tongue exactly. But by sheer chance, that tiny corner is preserved. And I mean, not because of Tolkien, because the decision not to build on it was made and Tolkien was still a young man probably, and the decision not to knock it down, because apparently there were a lot of mills there, but the decision not to knock it down was taken in, I don't know, the 50s or so. Certainly at no point where his. The mills connection to the childhood Tolkien would have had any real importance. But it's still there, and it's exactly the building that he would have known. You know, the cobbles that him and Hillary used to there, where you see the white ogre come bursting out of the. You know, I mean, and that's. And it's, it's a beautiful. And there's the woods there as well, you know, which, which are very evocative as well. So I was really surprised and delighted to go there. It's just, it really is an oasis of, of beauty. And I think from returning to the Shire or returning to the inspirations from the Shire, that's as close as you could get, you know. So, yeah, I'll. I'm back in England again in a few months time and I'll be good. In fact, actually, when this podcast comes out, I'll be in England.
- [21:08]
Alan Sisto
All right. Coming back to the projects you're working on here at Weta. Weta has, of course, been a part of the Tolkien collective consciousness now since their incredible work on the Jackson films. Hard to believe that was a quarter of a century ago. Since then, they've grown into becoming one of the lead creators of Middle Earth collectibles. I mean, I've. I've got a number of the statues. I know a lot of our listeners collect their stuff as well. And now they're developing video games. How long have you been working with Weta? And if you're able to tell us this, aside from writing for Tales of the Shire, what other work have you done with them?
- [21:39]
Darren Ormandy
I started here in 2020.
- [21:42]
Alan Sisto
Okay.
- [21:43]
Darren Ormandy
Initially, I wasn't in the game studio. I was working for our Immersive Experiences division. They do some really incredible work which. Creating giant figures. I mean, hyper realistic giant figures. There's. If you come to Wellington, there's an exhibition here called Scale of Our War, which just remarkable. I Mean, these figures are so realistic. You feel something like you're a small child in front of. You know, it's. It's very moving, very powerful, very successful. I think it was intended to run probably, I think, for like a year or something like that. 18 months when it was. When it was commissioned, and they've just renewed it again for about another three or four years. I mean, it's just one of the main attractions, so immersive experience. They do a lot of other stuff as well, but, you know, but these giant figures are one of the things they do. And so I was doing a lot of research and helping out with that division, and that was extremely good fun. But then word came out that they were looking for somebody to do a. Who knew Tolkien who might be interested in working on the game. And I went, well, yeah, I mean, again, it was another one of those, I don't think I'll get the job, you know, but anyway, I'll come along, you know, I mean, I love video games and I love Tolkien, so felt like it was very good. My job interview was rather. It reminds me of our conversation here, actually. Just nerded out about Tolkien, you know, ran way over, and then they said, yeah, he's got the job. So that was it. Then I was. I knew that I'd be spending the next few years of my life immersed in Tolkien's work. And when I wasn't at work, I go to Oxford and teach it. So, you know, what a privilege.
- [23:19]
Alan Sisto
And you get paid for these things.
- [23:20]
Darren Ormandy
They get paid for it as well.
- [23:22]
Alan Sisto
These things that all of us would be like, I'll just come do it, you know, I mean, let me.
- [23:26]
Darren Ormandy
Well, I would have done, but I didn't want to tell them that because.
- [23:30]
Alan Sisto
Exactly. I don't want to. Don't want to give away your hand.
- [23:32]
Darren Ormandy
Yeah, exactly. It's like, no, I can't do that. But, yeah, it was a really terrific. What an incredible chance. So, yeah, that's how I began. And a lot of initial work had already been done. A lot of decisions been done at that point. The characters, by and large, had been. Or many of the characters you see in the game had already been proposed, their names put together and things like that, and some sort of ideas and outlines for them. And they were great. They were absolutely great. So I didn't see any need to change anything, really. It was all about developing. It was all I going, okay, great. This is a fantastic starting point. Now I need to develop these characters. So my aspiration in Tales of the Shy has been to have every character have a pretty good guess about who was talking to you by just reading what they're saying. You know, they have a very distinctive way of speaking. I wanted them to be really individual. I spent time working out some of that story, writing 101 stuff about what are their goals, what are their needs, what are their. Their flaws, you know. Yeah. What's their relationship with others and things like that. Doing a lot of time really trying to create that. And there were a couple of things that were very essential to how these characters are created. And one of them was that we should actually think they're real people, that they should actually feel like real personalities. And the other thing is that it should be joyful, you know, it should be. It should just make you smile, you know, when you're reading their stories. I mean. And there's a lot more to say about this in a way which I'm happy to expand on, but that was basically my main aspiration when I came in. And also going, the stories will be led by character. The characters won't be there just to serve the story.
- [25:11]
Alan Sisto
Character driven story, as opposed to like a very story.
- [25:13]
Darren Ormandy
Yeah. Yes, exactly that. Yeah. I just thought this is what I need to really be focusing on because I just felt they were really important and what every writer, I think, wants really. But, I mean, I just really wanted people to have to feel like they were real and to actually start to feel an emotional connection. I can say, you know, that obviously we've had people playing the game and testing the game and everything else like that. And it's really interesting. Different personality types have different favorite characters within Tales of the Shire. And that's exactly what I wanted. I wanted. There's all these different types, you know, and people just relate. Some people say, oh, I didn't like that one so much. You know, other people going, oh, their story is just so good. And that's fantastic. You feel like you're kind of spreading it out there. I do feel the responsibility of it, you know, I feel the responsibility of being able to bring things into this world, to extend the world that Professor Tolkien created, you know, and, you know. You know, the. Obviously, the very familiar quote from the letter to Milton Waldman about the send the forward of the Silmarillion editions that, you know, I. I've deliberately left blank spaces on the map to be filled by other hands and minds willing. And I feel that's what we're doing. I think this is what. What a workshop done. I mean, when you look at how, as you mentioned, I mean, obviously the extraordinary work on Peter Jackson films, and I think my bestie, like, what a great example of that is Theoden's Breastplate. You know, where it looked wonderful, but it was the same inside in a way you'd never see, you know, and it's. That's the kind of mindset that Wetter Workshop have. We don't go for the quick answer, we don't go for the quick result. What we do is we go, we've got to get these things right. You know, they've got to be. They've got to exceed our own lofty aspirations. You know, we've got to be surprised at what we're able to do and we see this for everything.
- [27:09]
Alan Sisto
That's a great quote you just said, because there is something that Richard Taylor said in a recent video that talks about your expectations. Actually have that set aside in a question for us later. So I'll definitely come back to that. I love that, that desire that Weta has to, like you said, not take the easy answer, but to make the real thing, even if it's harder, even if some of it is never seen by anybody else, you know, and it's, in a way, it echoes what Tolkien did with his work. He didn't intend that we would see all of these things that Christopher put together in the history of Middle Earth, you know, but that depth is what gave the published work that same feeling of reality that. That it seems like you all want to give us as well.
- [27:46]
Darren Ormandy
Yeah, very much so. Very much so. You know, and gaming, you know, one of the things that as time's gone on, you know, you change your mind about things, things develop in your mind. And I mean, I, you know, been giving interviews for Tales of the Shire Times for the last year or so. And I was saying, of course, you know, Tolkien would never have. I can't imagine him writing a video game or anything else like that. I've actually changed my mind about that because one of the things that I think is true of Tolkien is that he was really searching for the form that he could try and deliver his stories. He kind of. He understood. I mean, he was painfully aware of how out of time Lord of the Rings was. I mean, if anybody thinks nobody's going to enjoy a story, just remember what Tolkien was doing in the 1950s, a time of gritty social realism, the angry young man, you know. Yeah. The time of all those realist dramas in film and, you know, a real kind of post war Marxist perspective in a lot of intellectual circles, and he writes the story of wizards and elves. You know, you could not possibly have done anything more unfashionable. Yeah. And obviously he had a great difficulty getting it actually published. But one of the things that I think was really motivating him with this is he. He realized he got it right with Lord of the Rings. He realized that the framing of Lord of the Rings and the leaning into the First Age material and the references there and the verisimilitude that. That gave it. Yes, it worked. You know, like, it felt real. And I think he was always searching for a way to. To try and do the same with the Silmarillion. And it just. I mean, things like, you know, the Lost Road, things like the. The idea of time travel, you know, like, what is. How can I put this stuff around in a sense that I'm not just going, this happened, then this happened, and this happened and this happened. And because he didn't want to, he didn't feel he could do that. And, of course, the irony is that's exactly what we did get in the end for the Silmarillion. You know, it's like. And obviously it's. It's. It's not a. It's not a quick read, and it's not. You have to. I think about Silmarini, it's like dehydrated, a dehydrated feast, that you have to sort of apply your imagination and your intellect to it and it expands into something wonderful. But what you get on the page is something that is. You literally have to kind of invest in it. You have to. You have to put the effort in. But when you do. My word, the last time I was going to the Silver Million, I was going. The trouble is, I'm not sure I want to read Lord of the Rings anymore, because this is so good and so impactful. But I have, and I've really enjoyed it. So that was a. That was a worry that I didn't have to worry about. But the. But, yeah, I think he was constantly searching for the right form to be able to tell his stories. I came across something absolutely remarkable the other day that I didn't know existed, which was the recording he'd done. Now, having done an Anglo Saxon course, I should probably be able to pronounce this better. I can never get the name right, but it's the Homecoming of Vietnam, I think it's describing. You know, have you guys come across the audio recording of that?
- [30:45]
Alan Sisto
I have, actually. A tiny little bit.
- [30:46]
Darren Ormandy
Yeah. Yeah. And the beginning is an introduction by Christopher. And I was literally going. I really, you know, I was audiobooking Alpha, I'm doing some stuff with this and that. And Christopher Tolkien was talking away and it was great. And then he started talking about, you know, my father doing a full recording, doing it in his study, using a broken chair or using an old chair to make the sound of the creaking cart.
- [31:06]
Alan Sisto
Yeah.
- [31:06]
Darren Ormandy
And I was going, hang on a minute. Am I listening to this? Right? Is he going to play a bit of this? And he plays the whole lot. And it's Tolkien. From what? I don't think Tolkien had the technical skills to edit reel to reel tape recorders. So it's all done in one take? No, exactly. It's about, I don't know, it's a half an hour, 40 minutes long. And it's Tolkien going around his study, doing all these different voices, doing Foley and doing all the photos and it sounds great, you know, and I mean, it really is a treasure. You know, I've said this to a few people, said, you are a real gem. I said, you come across this, it's amazing and it works, you know, and I mean, there's that great story about when he first came across. I mean, so we're so lucky that he got engaged with real trill tape recorders because we now have these wonderful recordings. Yes. His voice and, and of him doing his poetry and what have you. But he was, you know, he like, as I'm sure you know, he kind of, for a joke, he sort of did a blessed.
- [31:59]
Alan Sisto
The tape recording, like exorcism or something like that.
- [32:03]
Darren Ormandy
Right, exactly. Yeah. Against this tape recorder. Exactly. But then when he did it, he sort of really got into it. And I believe, I mean, this is something that, you know, is up for discussion really. But I honestly think that because he was constantly questing for that way, how do I. How do I create the medium to be able to tell these stories and make them work? You know, he could see the potential that radio drama had. You know, he could see how it complemented the imagination and where he as an author went. And he has an intellect and a brain that goes way beyond mine. I mean, you know, and I think one of the things that's amazing about that is that what he then invested his time into doing is to doing his. This, this Anglo Saxon poem that he'd written, not diving into doing an excerpt from, you know, taking it down to the prance, to the eagle and child in Oxford and claims to be in the prancing pony or The Green Dragon or whatever. You know, he actually went for that because he knew that that was the piece of work that would work the best for what he wanted. I mean, his intellect was extraordinary, I think, and he. He really understood the limitations of that. So I think if he was here now and said, well, look, we can create a section of the Shire. You can go where you like. You know, we can put in effectively anything you like. We can have stories there which you can choose to follow or not, or you can change the events or not. I think he would have been extremely excited by it. I mean, we're really talking about now. I'm sort of saying this is because Tolkien is Now in his 30s or 40s, not, you know, continuing to. To be with us now. But as. But if he was sort of creating now, I think he'd find the opportunities for story that video games can give you, as well as the experiences of playing, then I think he would have been, at the very least, extremely interested in it and what we're trying to do.
- [33:53]
Alan Sisto
I mean, think back to some of his. Some of the things that he said, expressing concern about what adaptations might look like. A lot of them were technologically based on the technological limitations of media at the time. Yeah, he was concerned that. That, you know, the problem with maybe making it a stage presentation is that you're going to. It's a tertiary world now instead of a secondary world, and all you have to have is one failure and you're right back out into the primary world. Yeah, that's where Weta comes in and Peter Jackson and you create, you know, this adaptation that, that. That doesn't have those failings, that uses technology in a way to bring you into the story and immerse yourself. And video games are perhaps the most immersive medium that you can have because you're literally putting the viewer, in this case a player into the story directly.
- [34:40]
Darren Ormandy
Absolutely. You know, and we've done. We've done so much work to really detail the world, you know, I mean, so many little bits and bobs are there. One of the things I did was to create. I basically looked through the appendices. I mean, you guys been going through the appendices, so. Yeah, I went through the appendices looking at the history of this region, you know, from the return of the Numenoreans. So obviously Arnor and then Arthur died and it becomes the Three Kingdoms. And effectively using that and a general sort of understanding of landscape archaeology in the uk, just about basically how the landscape is used and reused and changes and what have you. And a little bit of military understanding as well. Because it would have been a time at least some sort of war footing. You know, I mean, I kind of feel like in the case of the. As a parallel, the American Civil War, you know, be one of those kind of Kansas, Missouri kind of areas. No big battles, but lots of skirmishes and everything else. Yeah. And so kind of put together a speculative history. So and all this is background research. You know, this is. This is not something that we directly address in the game. But I had an idea of a grange beside Bywater Pool, roughly where Bywater Square is, that that would be a farming grange and that there'd be the hills would have. With the different crops would be on different hills. And because they're Numenorean, some very circular patterns. So there was a big sort of enclosure that's a big circle. And then things. Times change. That's in Arnorian times. But then after that we then get into the times of, you know, the kingdoms breaking apart and then obviously the incursions from Angmar in the north. And I sort of looked around the landscape and thought where would I. How would I defend this? And stuff. So then, you know, started to build little. Okay, well that's the biggest hill there. There'd be a fort up there, you know, and so really sort of put it through these different stages and sort of thought, okay, if there was a skirmish here, this is roughly where it would be. And so, you know, have some, have some sense of that. This is ancient archaeology. And then after that, then looking at the thing. Okay, so now that time is gone, there's been a massive depopulation, but the dwarves are still in the Blue Mountains and they need to keep the bridge open by the bridge still using the road. Exactly. So they would also have a bit of an encampment around there. So delivered that to the team and said, okay, so this is, this is why I'm thinking and I mean, I suppose as a qualify this a bit. One of. There's a television program called Detectorists which you may well not be aware of, but it's a British program by Mackenzie Crook, who's probably best known for being in Pirates of the Caribbean, but he's a very talented writer and thing. And it's a story of people, people doing metal detector, you know, with a metal detectors. It's a very gentle British comedy and it was one of the big influences on Tales of Shire. I think British listeners will know Detectorist. So that idea of kind of having that kind of end, that slight depth, literal depth of history, you know, and spoke to the art team and then they were got very excited about it as well. So there are, there are. Occasionally you'll come across a rune. If you look closely, you may well find, you know, a carving of the badge of Arnor in some of the stonework.
- [37:46]
Alan Sisto
You know, it's also just very Tolkienian in and of itself. Right. This idea of, you know, we mentioned before we started recording, we talked briefly, I think about Dr. Drought and sort of his old English and Beowulf. I'm going to use one of Dr. Drought's phrases, which is textual ruins. The idea that Tolkien sort of leaves these little bits and pieces that give us that, that depth, that reality of a lived in world. And you're talking here about doing that in the game by reminding players that this isn't. Hasn't always been the Shire that it is now. It was something else before, which is something that Tolkien specifically says in the book.
- [38:23]
Darren Ormandy
Yeah.
- [38:24]
Alan Sisto
So paraphrasing Gilderoy hasn't always been your Shire. It's not always going to be your Shire.
- [38:31]
Darren Ormandy
Be your shire. I know, exactly. But one of the things that really struck me, moved me so much when I was reading it as a child was exactly that was that sense of kind of going like the Shire, the land is still there, the hills are still there, but they're now empty. And I was living in a place where there was most extraordinary, beautiful places. And. Yeah, and it was, you know, there's a wonderful quote. I'm not going to remember who actually the quote comes from, but they said that when I was child, I read Lord of the Rings. I thought it was the greatest story ever told. Said now I'm an adult and I'm reading it to my son, I realize it's the saddest story ever told. And I think that that wash of sadness of loss is really important. It's one of the things that distinguishes Tolkien from other fantasy, many, many other fantasies. You know, the reason why I sort of mention that is I've also put in little moments of that little moments of loss, little moments of into the character stories. So within Tales of the Shire, what you really need to do to, to really get to understand and know the other hobbits is their hobbits, you need to cook them dinner, you need to cook them food. Right.
- [39:39]
Alan Sisto
They're hobbits.
- [39:40]
Darren Ormandy
Of course you make their hobbits, you know. So we had this big thing in the game about food is love. We go like food is love. So if you want to make a friend, if you want to settle an argument, if you just want to basically be nice to somebody, cook them a meal. And you know, the individualization I've been talking about has really gone down into, into their likes and dislikes for food and different things. So you kind of go, I'm going to bring over rosy cotton and I'm going to bring over Delphinium. And they're going to go and you know, we're going to put them in a meal together. If you do that, you've got to find out okay, well what do they like, what they don't like? Because you'll get a lot further. If you cook them something they like, you cook on something they don't like, you probably may not do any good. And then you've got the whole business. Okay, so what do I do? Well, you know, we've created your Hobbit hole in Bywater. There's loads of spin off questions for this and I'm sure you guys can come back to all this. But, but you know, we already have.
- [40:32]
Alan Sisto
Sort of like, well, there goes half our questions. That's all right.
- [40:37]
Darren Ormandy
And by water, you know, I mean the thing about the inspiration, I think Biowater is just that thing about bulking side. You're filling in the blank spaces on the map. Obviously we want something that's going to feel like a very authentic Hobbit experience. Hobbiton will be a wonderful place to do that. But obviously then you're also, you obviously have to be very, very careful about what you're doing when it comes to creating those worlds. Because Hobbiton is much more defined, you know, as a place with Bilbo and everything else. And also we've set our story in the years immediately before Bilbo's birthday party. So it's after the Hobbit, right before we get to the unexpected party. We kind of, we stay in that time. There's lots of good reasons for that. The main one is that we don't want to actually start hitting the events of Lord of the Rings because again, a lot of this is obviously about the player being able to express themselves and enjoy and follow whatever they want. We don't want to go. We can't do that now because that's going to bang into the books. And so, you know, we're going to. We wanted it to be a fairly blank canvas. So you sort of stay in this, this time scale but you're in Bywater in your Hobbit hole There's again, I think this leans a bit into what I was saying about loss. There was a really beloved old hobbit called Old Ruby. It was her old hobbit hole. And you're going to be taking it over. And I mean, the challenge for as a writer is going, okay, so you're a hobbit. Somehow you don't really know how to garden, how to fish, how to forage for food. Like, why don't you know any of these things, you know, and we want. No, exactly. Okay, you know, like, how is this possible? And kicked around different ideas for that. Because we wanted the learning process to be part of the player experience. Wanted to feel like you're being welcomed. So the answer is, gentlemen, I'm delighted to tell you, is that our hobbit was working at the Prancing Pony and Brie. There you go. You can. You can take.
- [42:24]
Alan Sisto
So they were friends with Bob and Nob and they.
- [42:26]
Darren Ormandy
Exactly. Well, actually, probably a generation before. You see, yes, there's all that time difference that we obviously don't get in the. From the films, but the time difference between the Unexpected Party and the Gandalf discovering that it's the one ring.
- [42:40]
Alan Sisto
I mean, 17 years that go by in seconds.
- [42:43]
Darren Ormandy
So we kind of worked out that maybe those other guys, those other hobbits were actually coming in as replacements, you know, because our. Because our player had gone and you can choose, you know, you can. There's a lot of customization about what you want your hobbit to look like. Because we wanted to also have. We wanted players to really kind of feel what my ideal hobbit be. It might be. I want my hobbit to look exactly like a beloved character I've seen in an illustration of one of the films. You know, it might be. I really want my hobbit to look really like me. Not me. I wouldn't recommend that. But I mean, I really want my hobbit to look like myself. This is a lot of customization. You can really change what your hobby looks like and then you can choose their name. So I did a big deep dive through the appendices and got all of the hobbit surnames and all of the hobbit first names. Look through there. I'm trying to remember now, actually, whether I put them in. I did come up with a couple of, you know, just trying to flesh things out a bit and kind of go, okay, so try to capture the spirit of it. But I didn't think in the end they went in anyway. So I Think that they're all the ones you'll find on the. In the appendices, if you want to be, you know.
- [43:40]
Alan Sisto
Yeah, that's. That's perfectly pedantic, by the way. I love that. It's, it's, it's straight out of the source material, as it should be.
- [43:47]
Darren Ormandy
Yeah, exactly. I mean, we've got, you know, Middle Earth Enterprises, who. Saul Zenz, the American film producer with the incredible prescience to go to Tolkien in the 19. Was it 1971 or 1969 or something, and say, I'll give you. I'll give you this money for the rights to the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings. I mean, one of the world's greatest investments, really. It took a while, but he got there.
- [44:09]
Alan Sisto
Oh, yeah.
- [44:10]
Darren Ormandy
Means we've got the appendices. It means we've got all of that material we can. We can draw from. And that's wonderful. And the style is written in the style of the Hobbits rather than Lord of the Rings. And by that I mean that if you look at it, the Hobbit will say, you're with an apostrophe, and Lord the Rings will more often say, you are. You know, so it's just a slightly more informal thing. We felt the Hobbit vibe was closer to what we wanted, a slightly more innocent vibe.
- [44:33]
Alan Sisto
You know, I'm thinking that's also going to be more successful with gamers who maybe aren't as familiar with Middle Earth. This could serve as a great introduction for people. I mean.
- [44:40]
Darren Ormandy
Well, one thing that.
- [44:42]
Alan Sisto
I don't even think we phrase this as a question, but maybe this will be a good question before we go into our first break, what this can look like as a point of entry for people. You know, people come into Tolkien through so many different ways. You know, in the late 1950s, you only came to Tolkien through the books. That was your only option. And over, over the years, it became, oh, I. I first discovered Tolkien through the Ralph Bakshi film or through the BBC Radio adaptation. And obviously huge numbers of people that came to the Lord of the Rings after seeing the Jackson films, some of them even after seeing the Jackson Hobbit films and some through Lord of the Rings online when that came out in 17, 18 years ago. So there will be people who come to Tolkien for the first time through Tales of the Shire.
- [45:25]
Darren Ormandy
How wonderful.
- [45:26]
Alan Sisto
What do you want those people to take away from the game that they can bring to their reading of the book when they first dive in?
- [45:34]
Darren Ormandy
The importance of Fellowship, the joy of Sharing a meal, the whole attitude of sort of forgiveness and redemption and everything else. And we have an antagonist, we have Sandyman, the Miller. I had a lot of fun writing Sandyman.
- [45:49]
Alan Sisto
It's always fun to write the villain.
- [45:51]
Darren Ormandy
Oh, absolutely. You know, and also I do allude to Ted Sandyman as well. Okay, he's only a little boy at the moment, but you never see him. But he keeps talking about my boy Ted, and he's an incredibly proud and doting father and you can absolutely tell that his boy Ted is an absolute little. It's one of those parents who's got a monstrous child and they just go, oh, he's so creative. You know, I had a lot of fun with Sandyman and my boy Ted. But at the end of the day, you know, there's wreck. If you follow the story through, there's reconciliation, there's, you know, there's warmth, there's affection there. And if you do actually spend your time to get to know Sandyman properly, which you have to do by cooking meals for Sandyman, you know, and developing that relationship with him his last. Each. Each time you get to a certain level with a character, they'll share something about their life with you. You also get some more tangible rewards for it. You know, I don't haven't trusted that, you know, the players will be going, that writer's so good. I'm so glad I put all that effort into hearing another story. However, I. Oh no, I do get something as well, thank you very much. So we try and spread our bases there because, you know, I suppose one of the things about Tales of the Shar is something we're really going for is something that's really inclusive. We want as many people as possible to enjoy this game and to relate to it, you know, and so there are all different types of gamers, you know, they're not all going to be people who want to immerse themselves in Lord of the Rings and live in that world. They're going to be gamers there who really love the challenge of playing the game. You know, I'm not that sort of gamer, but we do want to create a game that's also going to appeal to them as well. So we make sure that we sort of reward Primal War players as equally as possible. For the different player types are going to be playing this game. Yes, if you do, actually. But you do get these stories and these insights. And when you get to this three, there's three of them, three levels of them. And when you do get to the Third one, I think for each character there's. There's something of a confidence that they share. And the two I'm. I was most pleased for. The writer was a character called Old Noakes who is in fact, of course, a little character that pops up. So he's. He's our fishing hobbit and he's the other. He's not really an antagonist, but I had so much fun writing him. He's really cantankerous. He's totally unreasonable, possibly insane. He's just. He just spends his time kind of, you know, but you develop a relationship with him and then when you finally get his story, I. His final story, I don't want to put any spoilers in, but it was really drawn from the tcbs and Tolkien's friends who died in the First World War. But I don't do it as directly as that because I think that would be too obvious and also a little bit like manipulative, you know, like, people don't like to feel like their emotions being manipulative, but I just wanted to give that sense of loss to this character, you know?
- [48:38]
Alan Sisto
Yeah.
- [48:38]
Darren Ormandy
And that was really. That was really important to me. And Sandyman. Yeah, there's a. I was really pleased with what I came up with. Sandyman. He doesn't, you know, give you any great insights as such, because I thought that would be out of character. But he's. He's a great, fun character, you know, and in his kind of opposite number, the player is obviously our protagonist, really. I mean, the player is obviously our point of view and everything, but obviously wanted somebody to do this. So when we came up with the story of what is. Are we actually gonna have like a story here? And we came up with the idea of it had to be something that couldn't affect Lord of the Rings for a star, you know, like, it could. It could be. It could lean into the Hobbit. But Lord of the Rings, we had to be something like it's the middle of the shy. It couldn't be more middle if we tried. The Three Farthing Stone is like in. You can actually visit. Can actually visit the Three Farthing Stone. Yeah, we built it into the game, you know, so it is right in the middle. If there's anywhere safe, it's got to be by water, you know, and Hobbiton. So we're not going to have Orcs. We're not going to have, you know, they. They talk about times when the wolves crossed the frozen river and fell winter, you know, but they. But that's that's an old memory. So what he's going to be. But at the same time, you pick up any book on storytelling and goes, well, to make a story interesting there has to be conflict, right? You know, you're going to have conflict. So you kind of go, what conflict be. So we worked out, okay, so it's got to be something that is really important to the hobbits in Bywater but is of no importance whatsoever to anybody about two miles down the road. You know, they just go, are they upset about that? You know, why?
- [50:08]
Alan Sisto
Well, that's what Hobbit. I mean, hobbits are by nature parochial. I mean, they are so very local focused. I mean, you think about Farmer Maggot and how he sort of looks askance, you know. Oh, I knew it was gonna go all go wrong Frodo when you went to. To live in, you know, Hobbitzen. And you've got Sam who's like, oh, folks out in the. In the Buckland. Those folks are queer out there. You're talking about like 20 miles away.
- [50:32]
Darren Ormandy
Yeah, exactly.
- [50:33]
Alan Sisto
They're still Hobbits. Yeah, totally broken. So that's make it important to buy water. But like Frogmorton shouldn't care one whit about whatever it is they're.
- [50:41]
Darren Ormandy
Exactly. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I actually. I actually discovered the. The story through a problem I was having because we're trying to work out whether Bywater was a village or not. Because it's not described as anything in particular. You kind of go, oh, it's a village. Hobbiton is, I think by definition a town. Even though it's very small because of the ton in Hobbiton. And you know, if you're dealing with Tolkien, you've got to know that his.
- [51:03]
Alan Sisto
Choice of words, language means things. Yes, you're right.
- [51:06]
Darren Ormandy
Pretty spot on, right? Know, that's when, you know, we kind of went. Got a great idea. You know, how about that? By Water isn't a village and the Bywater hobbits think they are. And then you. And then it's. Then that becomes the, the narrative. The narrative part of the experience of Tales of the Shire, okay. Which is that the particularly Farmer Cotton. Farmer Cotton was just a great character. He's so such a great character in the end of Lord of the Rings. You know, he not even mentioned before that, you know, unsung hero. Yeah. Oh, yeah. He has an amazing Clint Eastwood moment where he's standing on his own poking the brazier of a fire. You know, kind of. It's like proper spaghetti western stuff. You know, I sort of, I've, I've lightened him up a bit in this one. He, he's passionate about. He's fiercely proud of Bywater and fiercely proud that it's a village. And Sandyman doesn't want Bywater to be a village because he's Hobbiton Mill. And you know, so Sandy man is dead against it. And so there's, then they, then there's this whole story really where you try and work out, well, what do you need to become a village? What are the things you need to have? And I've had a lot of fun with that. I won't give anything away because obviously, you know, we want people to play the game, discover it. But the, but I had a lot of fun with, you know, it's not just a question. Well, you've got to have this number of things. I didn't want it to be a kind of. Yes, you need to plant 14 trees and you need to. Right, that could be good fun. And I think certain types of gamers find that quite rewarding. But obviously mindful of, we're working with Professor Tolkien's world that we wanted something that was actually more of a story based challenge. So you have a number of different challenges, some of them rather absurd and to try and make Bywater a village. And so that was our, that was our main thread. So you discover, you know, you've got various streams you can go down. So you have obviously that main story which you can pursue some of that. You need to get to a certain level of familiarity and friendship with some of the hobbits. So that's obviously the cooking mechanic is involved in that but you can certainly pursue that narrative line. There's other stories that sit outside of that which are just lovely little moments in the lives of these other, other hobbits. And then there's as you say, the cooking, the making of shared meals and building up of recipes and saving recipes and everything else like that. And then beyond that there's also exploring. So I mean within our game and this can ultimately all return back to cooking. But within the game you can fish. We've got some lovely fishing, quite rewarding fishing game going on there. Different types of fish you can catch in different places. We have foraging, so we felt that foraging obviously for mushrooms but for other things as well, we couldn't miss that one. But there's foraging as well. There's a really beautiful foraging mechanic which helps people forage and then there's also growing. So you can grow, you've. You've got old rubies, Hobbit hole. You've got a fair bit of land, and as you go along, you actually can get more space for your garden. And it's really up to you about how you set up your garden. So if you want to turn it into more of a market garden, more of a kind of a small sort of allotment of growing your vegetables and stuff, you can do that. You can get different types of flower beds and then you can plant different plants in there. Got to keep watering them. But then as long as you do that sort of basic thing, then you'll see them grow and then you can harvest them. But you can put flowers in there. You know, you can put all different things in there as well. You can really customize your whole gardening. We've got garden ornaments that you can get sometimes through tails, sometimes you can effectively trade for them. So there's. The garden is a completely customizable space and it's lovely to see different players and how they customize their gardens. One of the things I'm really looking forward to when the game launches is when we start see screenshots of people's gardens and see how they've used, what the amazing team here put together. As far as all the artists and designers have put together the different ideas and how people are starting to use those, you can do the same inside as well. So old Ruby was an old hobbit and she was getting a bit long in the tooth. So it's cozy, but tatty, I think would be the way to describe it. You've got a good kitchen, always a very good start. But you can decorate it, you know, basically decorate in any way you like. You know, some of the videos have been coming out, have shown little examples, home decoration, but you can carpets, rugs, different colors, different textures. Furniture, tables, bookcases, wallpaper, you know, like window shapes, fireplace, you know, you can really can customize it and. And make it your own hobbit hole that you want to be in. You know, I mean, Tales of the Shire sort of came out of the time of COVID I mean, you know, I started a wet workshop during the COVID years, obviously here in New Zealand. We were in a bit of a strange situation because Covid didn't really affect us. We kept it away from us, but we were very aware of how it was affecting all our friends and families in other parts of the world. And then of course, eventually Covid did happen here as well. And so there was that Feeling of wanting to be in a cozy, supportive environment where people look after each other, you know, I mean, I live very close to where I am at the moment at work in Miramar in New Zealand. There's beaches all here. You know, you'd go out. You could go out at certain times of day onto the beach in, in. In Wellington. And people were leaving messages to their friends on the beach in the sand as you walked around as a way to communicate with each other, you know, send messages to people. And it was just very moving, you know, and those sort of things that you see made us, I think, put us very much into the mindset that we wanted to create something that was a response to that, you know, that really celebrated those simple things, because so often those things are so easily overlooked in life. And we. We don't celebrate the joy of good meal together, you know, the joy of developing a friendship, becoming closer friends with somebody. So we wanted to do that. So that's really why so much of what this is involved in is about relationships. And the driver for relationships is for cooking. Well, an extensive amount of menus to use. And then there's a really gorgeous feature which, you know, I mean, the decorating stuff is amazing. Decorations are very freehand. You know, you can put them into all sorts of places, but you're not confined. You don't put like, can I go in this slot here? Can I go that slot? It's really free and open. The other thing that's really gorgeous is that when you go and say you grow some potatoes, which I'm sure you're going to do, I mean, you're gonna.
- [57:18]
Alan Sisto
Do a hobbit and you better have mechanics for me to be able to boil them or mash them or put.
- [57:26]
James Tauber
Them in a skew.
- [57:27]
Darren Ormandy
Yeah, very good point. Yeah.
- [57:28]
Alan Sisto
If you don't, there's going to be all sorts of heck to pay.
- [57:30]
Darren Ormandy
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Well, I do, yeah, I do refer to them as taters in the game, actually. I think in the recipes they might be as potatoes. But, yeah, the hobbits refer to them as potatoes.
- [57:40]
Alan Sisto
You know, they're a good balance for an empty stomach.
- [57:42]
Darren Ormandy
Yes, yeah, exactly. Yeah. But if you go and grow your potatoes and you don't cook with them, immediately put them in your larder. When you go into your ladder, you'll see them there if you go, and they're actually going to be there. And if you go and then you're growing carrots, if you're growing beans, if you're growing, or if you Go and forage and you collect a load of mushrooms. You collect these things, you put them in your pantry. When you go to your pantry, which is, I mean, as you would imagine for a hobbit, quite a sizable space. I mean, it's like a small room, but they're there, the shelves all around there and everything you start to collect, your pantry fills up with all of the things that you've done. So. And I think this is a really beautiful thing that feels really. It's very much part of the genre of game, but I think it's just so beautifully expressed because you're quite used to sort of having your inventory. Where you pull up your inventory, it says, okay, you have this and it's on a grid. Right, Right. So this is effectively the same thing, but it's actually there in the world. You don't need to bring up the larder. You can actually. It's actually there. It's a room of the house. You just walk around to it. You want to see if you've got any potatoes, you can walk into the ladder and have a look, you know, and they, they actually fill up.
- [58:40]
Alan Sisto
So, yeah, it's definitely a distinction from other games in the genre. I mean, you know, you're right, they're typically just inventory lists on a grid or, you know, just a straight up list.
- [58:47]
Darren Ormandy
So, yeah, well, I think that that's, you know, and that's obviously it's a great way to, to do it and it's. There's obviously it can often free the space to do other things that the game wants to do. So certainly nothing wrong with that. But we just had that opportunity to, you know, to do that and I think it's. Yeah, I think it's just a really lovely addition, so.
- [59:05]
Alan Sisto
It is. Well, folks, we will come right back and just continue this incredible chat right after the break.
- [59:21]
Darren Ormandy
Thanks for selling your car to Carvana. Here's your check. Whoa.
- [59:24]
Alan Sisto
When did I get here?
- [59:25]
Darren Ormandy
What do you mean?
- [59:25]
Alan Sisto
I swear it was just moments ago that I accepted a great offer from Carvana online. I must have time traveled to the future.
- [59:31]
Darren Ormandy
It was just moments ago. We do same day pickup. Here's your check for that great offer. It is the future. It's. It's the present and just the convenience of Carvana. Sorry to blow your mind. It's all good.
- [59:43]
Alan Sisto
Good happens all the time.
- [59:44]
Darren Ormandy
Sell your car the convenient way to Carvana. Pickup times may vary and fees May apply on WhatsApp. No one can see or hear your personal messages. Whether it's a voice call message or sending a password to WhatsApp, it's all just this. So whether you're sharing the streaming password in the family chat or trading those late night voice messages that could basically become a podcast, your personal messages stay between you, your friends and your family. No one else, not even us. WhatsApp message privately with everyone.
- [60:31]
Alan Sisto
Now. We'll get back to our chat with Darren in just a minute, but we want to remind you there's a lot more talk going on at the Prancing Pony Podcast than just us.
- [60:38]
James Tauber
The PPP has an amazing listener community. They're always coming up with great questions and discussion across all our social media spaces. Check out our common room on Facebook, our dedicated subreddit, Twitter and more on Facebook.
- [60:51]
Alan Sisto
Just look for the Prancing Pony podcast. Follow the page to get the news and episode drops. But you're going to want to join the group to get involved in some great discussions.
- [60:58]
James Tauber
Or if you prefer Reddit, find us there at R. Prancing Pony Pod. On Twitter, Instagram, Blue Sky, Twitch, TikTok and YouTube, we're simply at Prancing Pony Pod.
- [61:10]
Alan Sisto
That's right. And if you want daily Tolkien content, I mean, come on, who doesn't? Check out today's Tolkien times on the PPP YouTube channel and on all your favorite podcast apps. It's my short format daily show with everything from Middle Earth Map Monday to Silmarillion Saturday. And then there's my new twice weekly streaming of all fun things Middle Earth on the PPP place where I can guarantee you folks Tales of the Shire will be making its debut there very soon. Be sure to check both of them out on the YouTube channel for all the PPP productions at YouTube.com rancing pony pod James, this has been already.
- [61:43]
James Tauber
I mean, it feels like we've amazing.
- [61:45]
Alan Sisto
Been talking with Darren for like 20 minutes and it's, you know, we've been here for an hour. We've got like a gazillion questions. It's gonna be an all day episode, nobody's gonna complain. Why don't you go ahead and and kick off with the with the next round of questions.
- [61:57]
Darren Ormandy
Yeah.
- [61:57]
James Tauber
So many of the places in Tolkien's Middle Earth were or seem to be inspired by places and histories in the primary world, none more explicitly than the Shire. We've already touched on this in letter 178, Tolkien wrote that the Shire is in fact more or less a Warwickshire village of about the period of the Diamond Jubilee. For listeners, he's referring mostly Americans.
- [62:22]
Alan Sisto
I had to look this up right I didn't know what this was.
- [62:24]
James Tauber
Yeah, yeah. To Queen Victoria's Diamond Jubilee, which took place in 1897. To what extent did you look at Tolkien's own life? I mean, you've touched on this already, but we can dive into it a little bit more. To what extent did you look at Tolkien's own life, not just the legendarium, to formulate what the Shire would look.
- [62:42]
Darren Ormandy
And feel like as far as, like, the actual look of the Shire goes. You know, as I say, we've got a fantastic art team here who just. Kurt, who was doing a lot of the design of the landscapes, just had so many pictures around his desktop, kept changing pictures of the English landscape. He really managed to capture what the English landscape feels like because we are in New Zealand and in fact, it's very different flora and fauna here. You know, the. There are a lot of British trees here, but that's because they were brought over to New Zealand, so they haven't grown in the same way as they have in England. And also, the English countryside is in itself rather a sort of a. A historical document all of its own. You know, I was saying before about sort of the deep history of the landscape. You know, a lot of the time those. Those sort of clumps of trees on top of hills have been there because farmers are trying to keep the soil on top of the hill, you know, or they might be, because there used to be an old hill fort there and that there's a. You know, the trees actually growing through the banks of an old hill fort. So a lot of care and attention was done into capturing the rolling hills of England where, you know, and having trees that are British trees, you know, English trees, and then also the places they would grow and everything. So it does have a lovely authenticity from that point of view. The. When it comes to the. The feel of the Shire, in some ways, of course, that's quite. That's quite hard to define. There's certain things, though, that were very traumatic, one of which is the fact that Hobbits, everything's got a certain age to it, in a sense, because Hobbits don't won't go out of their way to, like, remake something or knock something down, to rebuild it to make it a bit better. Right. You know, some of that is because they've got just a tremendous kind of empathy and connection to nature, and some of that is because they're lazy and they want to spend time in the pub.
- [64:30]
Alan Sisto
So why do that when I can make a meal and have people over to Eat right.
- [64:33]
Darren Ormandy
Exactly. You know, yes, this hobo is completely fine, you know, and yes, it is very old and, you know, but it works. And likewise, I think things like their clothing is clothing that's practical, hard wearing, possibly repaired, but not thrown away. You know, I'm kind of. I'm lucky enough to be of a generation that my grandmother's generation, more or less the same as Tolkien. Tolkien was a little bit older, maybe like about 20 years older, I suppose, my grandmother. But it's still part of that world. So their values, those old values from my grandparents and the way they spoke as well, and the way they talk was really helpful. I drew a lot on that, you know, to talk about that and to try and capture the way of. The way of expressing the types of words that we use. So many American phrases are now in our. In our vocabulary now.
- [65:27]
Alan Sisto
We apologize for that.
- [65:28]
Darren Ormandy
Well, I was about to say, actually, I don't think it's any bad thing. And I think if one of the things that. When we were talking about, you know, Tolkien's. We talk about the Tolkien letters, one of the things I think Tolkien is mistaken for is the fact of going. And I mean, you can understand why. I mean, you know, every time you see him, he's dressed up in a tweed suit, usually with a pipe in his mouth. He works in Oxford, which is visually quite literally Hogwarts. You know, I mean, he's got a. He actually seems to come from a different age, and he studies. He's. He can speak about eight languages that died out a thousand years ago. You know, like, this guy is like, he's not any. In any way, shape or form a modern human. And I mean, Humphrey Carpenter's biography said of him, you know, he didn't enjoy any literature beyond Chaucer. You know, I think I. But I think that. I wonder whether that's true. You know, I mean, we talk about. There's that wonderful documentary, Tolkien at Oxford, where they interview him in Merton College. Yeah. And the end of it, he says, lord of the Rings is death, the inevitability of death. You know, and he pulls out from his wallet the quote. And it's a quote from Simone de Beauvoir. Yes. You know, it's not a quote from, you know, he's pulled from Pierce Plowman or Beowulf or something like that.
- [66:38]
Alan Sisto
Right?
- [66:38]
Darren Ormandy
Simone de Beauvoir. Right.
- [66:40]
Alan Sisto
Yeah.
- [66:40]
Darren Ormandy
So I think that perception of him being out of time, we've talked about how surprising. Like, almost intimate, you know, and one of the things I was lucky enough to do a while ago now was. I went to. We. There was a bit of a residential school on Tolkien. It was led by Stuart Lee, the professor. Stuart Lee, who's, you know, is obviously a tremendous scholar of Old English and a very big Tolkien enthusiast. And there were very different people talking about it. One of the things they were talking about was the role of women in. In Tolkien's world, of course, it's one of the topics that often comes up.
- [67:13]
Alan Sisto
Yeah.
- [67:13]
Darren Ormandy
And there was a very interesting observation by some of the academics there that said that Tolkien was distinctive. When you look at the records of the university, how many women he took on as a supervisor when they were doing their doctorates, their PhDs, and also how highly those women spoke of him, said it was unusual for an Oxford professor in the 1930s or 40s to take on a woman student at that level to become a PhD. Obviously, it's a much less enlightened time then, and it was even more unusual that they would put effort into it. But he was very warmly regarded by his female students. So some of the ideas that we may think these ideas we might have of him, I think, aren't borne out by him. And I don't think it's because he was. He obviously was just. His whole. Everything about him was really looking into living in the past in many ways. But it doesn't mean that he was a man who was dominated by living in the past, I don't think. I think he was far more. He was. He had far more humanity than I think people would expect. He's not an icon, you know, he's. He's astonishingly brilliant and is a phenomena when it comes to anything created. Nobody is. I can't think of anybody's done anything before or since Tolkien on the scale that he has. And so we've never even got to the bottom of everything he's created, yet not all of it has been published. But I think underneath all that, he was a tremendous warmth for people, you know, and a consideration for people. He cared about people, you know, and I think that that is tremendous humility. So he was. You know, I think if you met him. And I so wish I had at all. I'm very jealous of Christopher Lee. You know, I really wish I'd met him. But I have met his daughter, and she had the same humility and kindness about her and generosity of spirit, you know, when you just know you're in the room with a really good person. I think how I described meeting Priscilla Tolkien and, you know, the. And I Feel. I'd feel the same if I. If I'd met the professor himself. You know, that is the quality that we're trying to get, one of kindness. You know, a kindness and a love. And that's not me being sentimental. It's really just trying to reach into what I think are the. The engines that drove Tolkien. Yeah. Like, we have the books and we have some astonishingly good interpretations of the work, you know, and even ones which people don't think are necessarily as good as interpretations, different radio plays or different film versions or whatever, there's often things they've done in there which are still really interesting.
- [69:39]
Alan Sisto
Exactly.
- [69:39]
Darren Ormandy
And bring. You know, it's wonderful to see so many different imaginations coming to work on. On Professor Tolkien's work. So we have all of that material and we can look at all of that material and go and take our story from there. But I was also really interested in getting into, like. Well, what was driving him, though? What did he want? So, yeah, so the creation of the Shire, the creation of the characters, the general feel and tone of it. I wanted it to feel like it belonged in the world of Lord of the Rings. If all you knew about the Hobbit, if you. All you knew about Middle Earth was the bit that Tolkien wrote in the Shire, you'd have. This would be a very peculiar story, really. But it's for these sort of rather comical. You know, there's a certain kind of acerbic wit, maybe, or a slight kind of. And there is, as you say, that incredible parochialism which can, you know, like, makes them suspicious of absolutely everybody.
- [70:28]
James Tauber
Yeah, right. And there's. And there's gossip involved as well.
- [70:31]
Darren Ormandy
Gossip. Very much gossip. Yes, exactly. Lots of God statement. Everything else.
- [70:35]
Alan Sisto
Sort of a myopia that. That even Tolkien says Sam is, you know, deeply myopic in many things.
- [70:40]
Darren Ormandy
Yeah, I think that's.
- [70:41]
Alan Sisto
That's another trait that's relatively universal. I mean, I think we're led to see that Frodo, Mary and Pippin are very extraordinary Hobbits, That Sam is much more like the rest of them.
- [70:50]
Darren Ormandy
Yeah. But then, of course, he is. He, of all of them, is the real. The real hero of Lord of the Rings.
- [70:55]
Alan Sisto
You know, the story.
- [70:56]
Darren Ormandy
Yeah, yeah, exactly. I was. I was. I read Lord of the Rings to my daughter, my youngest daughter, a couple of years ago. She was 11, 12 years old. It was so wonderful to do that and go through the story. And I had to. I had to tell her that Gandalf comes back because it had stopped being amazing. Immersive storytelling with, you know, tears being shed for the sadness. It sort of moved into the area of parental abuse that I was actually fooling her. She was distraught.
- [71:28]
Alan Sisto
Yes.
- [71:29]
Darren Ormandy
Her favorite character for a long time, well, still is actually Tom Bombadil, which I also found so interesting that without any of that baggage that Bombadil just resonated with so strongly. You know, he's, he's one of the great conundrums.
- [71:42]
Alan Sisto
He's a, he's a very interesting conundrum. So, Darren, one of the things that good cozy games do well is use familiar everyday experiences to make gamers comfortable right away. I mean, food or friends are the things that come to mind right away. Based on what we've been talking about. For those of us who are fans of the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings, the Shire itself is a character. It is a familiar friend. And creating a world set in such a well known place can put gamers at ease right away. If it's done really well, if it doesn't feel right, it can do the exact opposite. So, you know, we've talked a lot about the things that you've done to make it successful, but what were the biggest challenges from your perspective as the writer in making sure that the Shire feels like that familiar friend for players?
- [72:25]
Darren Ormandy
One of it was what I alluded to before when I said about that your Hobbit had come from the Prancing Pony. It was like, well, how are you arriving there? You know, like you're not going to spring out of the ground. I didn't want it to be like a dwarf. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So they tell me. Yeah, we actually have a very beautiful small film clip really, where you meet a certain well known character from Lord of the Rings and they actually meet you and then they, they take you in, they, they bring you to buy water. But as part of that, which I think is rather lovely, is that they basically find you, you can't see yourself. And they went, they basically say, come and wake up. And then it goes into a character customization screen. So then you can go, okay, I'm going to be, this is what I'm gonna, I'm gonna be male, I'm gonna be female, I'm gonna be, you know, it's my body type, this is my hair color, it's my skin color, how much hair I have on my feet. You know, I think we, we might be the only game when foot hair customization is an option. I'm not sure it's our strongest selling point, but it's a good one.
- [73:25]
Alan Sisto
I'm sure there's a mod for that.
- [73:29]
Darren Ormandy
So you do all of that and then of course you give your name. And I said before that, you know, we use the. You know, took all the names from the appendices. And then you're in the story as you design stuff and the little film continues. But it is you, the you you've created. And that's rather beautiful. And you get brought into Bywater and it's just a little bit of general scene setting. It sets. You understand where you are and who you are. Then you're in there. And then the first Hobbit you meet is Orlo Proudfoot. He probably is the character that, if you follow the progression narrative has the biggest. Has the biggest change in his life. So when you meet him, he's like the sort of. Well, effectively he. He doesn't do very much. So he just busies himself helping people. And one of the things he does is deliver the post. And he's also meeting you and bringing you into Old Ruby's Hobbit hole and welcoming you to bywater. So. And that's how it begins. But very quickly. Then you're down to the Green Dragon. And then you're good Farmer Cotton. Farmer Cotton and Sandy man are having an argument and things kick off from there. That's how we bring people into the Shire. You very quickly do some cooking. But then when you're there, you then start to learn how to. How to be a Hobbit, how to forage, how to fish. And they're all involved in character. So by doing that, you meet. I mean, Old Noakes will teach you how to fish and you'll soon get the measure of his extremely quirky mannerisms. And then you will meet Delphinium who is probably the sweetest, nicest person in the entire. In the entire game. But Delphinium, and she is. She'll teach you about foraging. One of the moments I just was. I just absolutely adored it when I was. When the game really started to come together is that Delphine says, I'll show you where I'll find some mushrooms. And then she lives in what is effectively. I mean, the Hobbits call it a forest. It's really like a woodland thing. Yeah. She takes you through this forest. It's a very old forest. It's lovely and twisted and gnarly and lots of little nice views and vistas in it. But I'm just walking along behind this tiny Hobbit going across a fallen tree log, across a river. In the middle of a forest. And I thought, well, this is what I've come here for, you know. Yeah. It's just doing this, you know, And I think as a gamer as well, to gameplay, I mean, the bywater isn't a large amount of land, but because you're a hobbit and quite small, and because of the way that there's really no such thing as a straight line, everything twists and turns and comes around that there's a lot to find and discover and explore that, you know, so you can just spend a lot of time just going around and just exploring by water and just seeing what's there. As I say, there are different Easter eggs there. There's some Easter eggs and there's my father's love. Peppered a lot of Easter eggs in the narrative. Good. They're not you. You now get a. You know, you now get another chair for your room sort of Easter egg. But they're there for the people that know Tolkien.
- [76:08]
Alan Sisto
Yeah.
- [76:09]
Darren Ormandy
They're just little kind of hand waves.
- [76:11]
Alan Sisto
Oh, those are the things I'm really most excited for.
- [76:13]
Darren Ormandy
Right, Great. I'm really excited to see if somebody will come up with one. There's one there. I'm going to set it as a bit of a quiz that one of the characters has got a toy, a particular toy, and that toy has a name, which they tell you. This character tells you. The name was given by Bilbo Baggins. Bilbo Baggins named the toy. And I'm really interested to see if people get what that is. You're gonna have to wait a few months now before you get that one, but. Yeah.
- [76:40]
Alan Sisto
All right.
- [76:40]
Darren Ormandy
But it's just the thing. It's funny, actually, because I thought it was. I thought, like Odyssey. I thought it was quite. Oh, people get this one then. Actually, some people who really do know Tolkien and actually pick that one up. There's lots of those sorts of things there. But there's to say there's lots of visual treats there. And it's not just lore Easter eggs. It's also just, you know, waterfalls and stepping stones and just beautiful views. Yeah.
- [77:04]
Alan Sisto
I have a feeling this game is going to be the game that generates a million screenshots.
- [77:07]
Darren Ormandy
Oh, that's lovely.
- [77:09]
Alan Sisto
From what I've seen, it's.
- [77:11]
Darren Ormandy
It.
- [77:11]
Alan Sisto
The art style is so just comfortable and.
- [77:15]
Darren Ormandy
Yeah. Yeah.
- [77:16]
Alan Sisto
And just the color palette, everything really is beautiful.
- [77:19]
Darren Ormandy
Well, you know, this is. This has really been really important to us. You know, I mean, the visual here is how it looks so good. And I mean. Yeah. The Screenshots been gorgeous. They've really showed off what we can do within that. You know, the sort of the. The light coming through the trees. You know, it is a painterly esthetic, you know.
- [77:37]
Alan Sisto
That's a great word. That's the word I was looking for. Yeah.
- [77:39]
Darren Ormandy
Yeah.
- [77:39]
Alan Sisto
That's exactly what it feels like.
- [77:40]
Darren Ormandy
Like. Yeah.
- [77:41]
James Tauber
Is there a. Is there one location in particular that you're. You're excited for people to be able to explore, whether from the books or new?
- [77:51]
Darren Ormandy
Probably a place that I've named Lookout Hill. Okay. Which, you know, obviously there's a lot of blank spaces on the map, so.
- [77:59]
Alan Sisto
Yeah.
- [77:59]
Darren Ormandy
Whereas the Bible hobbits have a name for most things. I've tried to follow Holkeen's guide on this, that the hobbits just name things for what they are. The hill, the wall. Yeah, exactly. Exactly that. Yeah. So I thought, well, there's more than one hill in our game, so I can keep calling them the hill, the other hill, and yet another hill, although that would be quite funny.
- [78:16]
Alan Sisto
But everything is that hill.
- [78:19]
Darren Ormandy
This hill. Exactly.
- [78:21]
Alan Sisto
It's pretty much what it says on the tin. They don't. They don't get too creative with their names.
- [78:25]
Darren Ormandy
But there is an old lookout on top of an old lookout tower on.
- [78:28]
Alan Sisto
Which then would go back to this thing we talked about earlier.
- [78:31]
Darren Ormandy
The history of the land 100 and.
- [78:32]
Alan Sisto
The fact that it was, you know, once Arthrodine.
- [78:35]
Darren Ormandy
Yeah, exactly. Exactly that. But the view from up there is gorgeous. You just get the whole spread of the spread of Bywater, you know, question for you.
- [78:43]
Alan Sisto
And this is something that's more. It's a game question. It's a technical question. I've seen games that really do sort of play up their, you know, gorgeous nature and that really encourage things like screenshots, have features like a photo mode and the ability to change the time of day in the photo mode. So, like, you can be like, oh, this looks like a beautiful place, but here I am at noon. I want to go into photo mode and change this to sunset. Is that something that you all have incorporated in this game? I'm just curious. Or if you can tell me.
- [79:10]
Darren Ormandy
We certainly have photo mode. We don't do adjustment on time, so photos can be taken, but we don't do the. We can't do the shifting in time. You need to go there at that time of day. Yeah. That's not a kind of an omission rather than a natural choice, actually, because we wanted the world to feel like. We wanted to feel like the natural World.
- [79:29]
Alan Sisto
Yeah. It goes on without you, whether you're.
- [79:32]
Darren Ormandy
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And the thing about hobbits, because they do live, I mean, not like say for instance, Lori and L To it's incredible sympathy and integration with the energies of the valor and nature. You know, it's not like that, but they do live in great harmony with nature because, you know, they. They sort of sit in that balance very, very carefully. And so trying to get that across is very good. I mean, but then of course you. Then against that you're also battling, you know, somebody go, I'd love to do this at sunset but I've got to cook me dinner, you know.
- [80:01]
Alan Sisto
Right, exactly. I got Rosie Cotton coming.
- [80:04]
Darren Ormandy
Yeah, I can't be here. But in real life they might be going, you know, I've got it. Oh, I can't wait. You know. Yeah, yeah, I'd love to have done that. So we're very aware that, you know, you've got to get that balance right. Yeah.
- [80:16]
Alan Sisto
Because that is the kind of thing it can break immersion even in a photo mode. But yeah, it's for somebody like me who loves the visuals in a game that would have been an interesting feature into. So we've talked a little bit about familiar places, we've talked a little bit about familiar people like Sandyman for instance, and Farmer Cotton. What about familiar events? We might not be here for Bilbo's famous birthday party, like you pointed out, but birthday parties in the Shire are a thing, as is the very unique tradition of gift giving. We've talked about making meals for people. Are we going to be seeing gift giving in the game? Are we handing around the same mathem over and over again? Especially the reason I ask in particular is I just spent some time on today's Tolkien times on letter 214, which is the one where Tolkien spells out every last detail about gift giving etiquette in the Shire, down to the fact that you'd only expect a gift if you were a second cousin or nearer kin and lived within 12 miles. I mean, it's the kind of thing that would really like be gamified in a way that would be really interesting. So is that something that you're able to or have chosen to incorporate or not? I'm just curious.
- [81:20]
Darren Ormandy
The short answer on that really is that we had a certain amount of. We had to prioritize what we could realize. Yeah, yeah. We had to give reality that. And as you say, it is actually quite a. Quite a system to. To be able to put in place. So we have the spirit of gift giving. We have the spirit of gift giving through the. The meal. Gifting through the meals. We looked at. We looked long and hard at things like do we introduce birthdays? And of course, you know, hobbits give other people presents on their birthdays. You don't get them yourselves. Right.
- [81:51]
Alan Sisto
So you'd have to figure out, what present do I give to Rosie? What present?
- [81:54]
Darren Ormandy
Yeah, we sort of start getting to that point. You start going, this gets a bit more like a resource management game and not a cozy game. Do you see what I mean?
- [81:59]
Alan Sisto
Yeah, you're right. No, it almost becomes too complicated.
- [82:02]
Darren Ormandy
I've got 15 sort of major hobbits that there's going to be. You know, we don't. We. It's not. Every day is not the same as it is in the real world. You know, each season it's like accelerated time. Yeah, it's accelerated time. So some of that. So you can keep. So you don't have to wait. Literally wait a year of game time before you can actually harvest your potatoes, please. You know, so you kind of go, okay, that's a spring thing. Well, I'll play through winter. That will take me about an hour or so and then I'll be. It was. You know, it's those things we have to sort of get the mechanics work. So. Yeah, the idea of kind of doing birthdays and then you kind of go, when it's my birthday, I have to give it.
- [82:37]
Alan Sisto
Give 15 gifts to.
- [82:39]
Darren Ormandy
Yeah, 15 gifts there to every. You know, to everything that it starts becoming quite a resource management thing. We didn't want it to be like that. We wanted to be something that you could enjoy the spirit of it rather.
- [82:49]
Alan Sisto
Than, you know, some more relationship focus. The mechanic focus.
- [82:52]
Darren Ormandy
Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, certainly, if it comes to things that, you know, we've looked at going, okay, well, so looking ahead, if we put some more. You get the opportunity to do some more with Shire. With this particular, you know, part of Shire by Water, there's obviously these. All areas that we'd love to be able to explore as well. You know, with a. Obviously with different timescales, you know, which. Which would be just wonderful to do. But. But for the game we have. We, you know, made the decision we want to go for. We felt that cooking was a really good thing to go for for a couple of reasons.
- [83:24]
Alan Sisto
Yeah.
- [83:25]
Darren Ormandy
One of which is the. Because you don't just like, finish cooking and then give and then go up to Orlo or Delphinium or Pharmacot and say, I've cooked you a meal, you know, and here it is.
- [83:36]
Alan Sisto
Here's a stew.
- [83:37]
Darren Ormandy
Here's a stew. And then there's, you know, achievement unlocked stewed farmer cotton kind of pops up. You know, we haven't gone down that path with it. So what we do is that we go. You actually, once you've chosen, you're going to choose where you're going to give your meal. So you have a number of locations you can choose. You've got your own hobbit hole, of course. There's also a lovely spot in the Green Dragon which you can choose to have your meal at. There's another one over by the Three Farthing Stone, very al fresco with a beautiful view of the water and of the Bywater village below it.
- [84:05]
Alan Sisto
Oh, lovely.
- [84:06]
Darren Ormandy
So you can choose where you want to have your. There's Delphinium has got a lovely dining spot on top of her home. She actually lives inside an old tree trunk. So she's got like the top part of that is her garden. And you can. Now some of these are unlocks. You need to build a relationship enough as you would in real life, you know, hello, we just met. Can I use your roof for a party? You know, but you can choose all those places. And then when you do and you serve the food, then there is. There are actually well cut scenes. It's short animation that should show everybody sitting there eating together in the position where you've. You serve up the food onto the table. You place the food on the table and then you see the reactions of each hobbit as they eat the food, whether they love it or they like it or they hate it or whatever. And then, you know, and you see it within its setting as well. So we wanted to really show what an experience that was. I really, really try and realize that experience as much as possible for players, you know, to give it that warm.
- [85:03]
Alan Sisto
Feeling, to make it more than just checking a box, to make the experience of eating the meal as important in the game as making the meal.
- [85:10]
Darren Ormandy
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You know, because there is. Because, you know, it's a beautiful landscape and you know, the characters, you're getting more and more familiar with characters. You can see all that happening. So. Yeah, yeah, exactly. That wanted the experience to be as good as well as the achievement, you.
- [85:28]
James Tauber
Know, and it seems that, that, that really brings out the, the. The whole theme of fellowship and you know, the, the other word besides fellowship that, that I've heard you mention a lot and, and on some of the videos as well is love as well. The heart of the game is love, I think you said.
- [85:46]
Darren Ormandy
Yeah.
- [85:46]
James Tauber
In a recent video. What were some of the other Tolkienian themes that you were interested in making sure flowed through to the game? And how did you work on making sure that they did?
- [85:58]
Darren Ormandy
Yeah, obviously, as you say, the power of Fellowship is really strong, really important, and that can't be underestimated, really. I mean, that's probably the real heart of the game. I mean, you know, Fellowship, love is the same thing, really. It's the same. Especially if you're taking it, you know, sort of the different we. What we use in English as one word is actually got different words in other languages and, you know, like the sort of charity and, you know, fraternal paternal love and things like that, as well as romantic love, you know, that's really, really strong, really important. I think nature, a love of nature, appreciation of nature and awareness of nature, of living in nature and being part of that world, is really important. You know, Orlo in particular, embodies, I think, the Sam Gamgee story arc. And I think that that is hugely important as well. I mean, hobbits are cute, obviously. They're these small, tiny, friendly creatures, but at the same time, they are the true heroes of. Of. Of this. This world where even armies can't achieve what they manage to achieve. And that idea of that everybody has value, everybody has worth, everybody has a story. And I wanted every character to have a realistic, justifiable and sympathetic reason for being the way they are. Even the antagonistic characters, you know, they're not like mooks, you know, or they're not there to be kind of knocked down without any sense, and they're just bad.
- [87:25]
Alan Sisto
No, they're still hobbits.
- [87:27]
Darren Ormandy
They're still hobbits, you know. Yeah. I really. It was really important to me that they felt like real people with that in mind. It really is. A lot of the characters actually reflect people we know in our own lives or part of our family histories. There are many people I know who. I've taken elements of them into their firm. Old Noakes is actually based strongly on somebody I know who, yeah, is an amazing, cantankerous, but at the end of the day, you know, incredibly loyal, decent human being, you know. Likewise, Delphinium is based on. Actually met the real Delphinium, as it were, a couple of weeks ago. She's the cousin of one of our game designers. Her story, her relationship with her mother's ambitions and her own wishes and her own need to find her own way in life is taken from her. I know that many of the artists at sometimes have actually been really emotional about certain characters because they. They are about people that they've had in their lives or that they wish they'd had in their lives or they've lost in their lives. And they've really put detailing in from that. And I think that that's all our jobs here. I'm the writer, but obviously there's all different jobs here. Our job is fundamentally to give people a great game that they really enjoy. You know, that's. That's our primary. It's not here. We're not here to indulge ourselves. But at the same time, having that sense of deep emotional connection to those characters where they really do reflect, you know, real people in our lives that we feel a tremendous affection for, I think is something that's given a great richness and reality to that and made those stories rather touching because there's a truth behind it, you know. And I think that does link in to your question, really, about what are those sort of Tolkienian values? Because I think it is there in him, his humanity, his generosity, his kindness. I think his. His very childlike sense of fun. I mean, Tolkien has a very childish sense of fun. You know, if you look at things like people always surprised and it sort of said the. The people that he entrusted to put some of his work to music is Donald Swan from Flanders and Swan. Because it's very kind of, you know, mud. Mud. Glorious mud. And I think quite like it. It's all kind of like quite light, you know. Yeah. You think he'd give it to some great composer of the day, you know, something like that, or. But no, he just. You know, I think Tolkien had that lightness to him. He had a hobbit's sort of simplicity about him, which is incredibly at odds with the. What we now understand of the power of his imagination and his incredible richness that he delved into. There's all of that. So I really tried to capture that. I tried to capture. This is such a difficult question to ask, to answer James. It's taken me a bit of time to get my wheels. I'm starting to get there now. The other thing is really about. And again, I mean, to reference Michael Drought, but the. The idea of sort of like the depth of reading, the kind of great chain of reading, I think he calls it. Yeah, we really have these kind of documents and everything going back in time that. That has been really important to me. In one point, the Hobbits quite literally end up with an ancient document that they. But they don't realize it's an ancient document because they're hobbits. So that's.
- [90:36]
Alan Sisto
Does it reveal what happened to the lost company of archers that they supposedly saw?
- [90:39]
Darren Ormandy
No, it doesn't actually.
- [90:43]
Alan Sisto
Because I'm not sure they actually said to the archers.
- [90:48]
Darren Ormandy
Yes, the. Oh, the lost company of archers. I tell you. Yeah, Yeah. I do actually reference them.
- [90:54]
Alan Sisto
Up to you. I can't wait. I can't wait to stumble across.
- [90:57]
Darren Ormandy
You have to find it. You have to find it. It's not. Yeah, there is a little mention to them. Yeah. If you don't find it, let me know because I'll tell you where it is. But it's. It's in one of the option choices if you. By looking at object and it references the lost. It's a good example of one of those Easter eggs we talk about so very much. That great chain of reading really wanted to have that sense of depth. I felt that was really, really important. So that's why all that things like looking at the ancient history of Bywater, building out from there. You know, Nora Burrows, who's. Who runs a shop, but she's a hobbit who loves stories and believes everything has a story. So she's really interested in the past. She often is a conduit for new information coming in or for information about the wider Middle Earth. Because one of the challenges, again is you've got a Middle Earth game where you're playing a character surrounded by other characters. But I have no interest whatsoever in what's happening down the road, let alone in Rohan, you know, so it's like trying to find a way to clues that in. And one of the things we've been able to do, which has been really lovely actually, is that on occasions there's the opportunity to go stargazing key characters with some of the NPCs. And they all. They all have different ways of looking at the stars. But of course, you do get the stars, obviously hugely important within Tolkien's world and the legendary. So I was able to lean in all of those. And some of it was really referencing the way that stars and constellations are described in the Lord of the Rings. There is one conversation which really does lean into the story of Arendell because, you know, we're allowed to do that because there is the. The poem. You know, Rendell was a mariner who tarried in Arvernian, built a boat at Timberfeld and never thought to journey in, which is in the which is in Lord of the Rings, you know, that means we can draw on that, you know, we don't.
- [92:35]
Alan Sisto
Yes.
- [92:36]
Darren Ormandy
Into our license. So we reference our end. But also just what stars mean, you know, I mean, and that's another thing I've tried to do is to also go, what does it mean? You know, what does. And obviously within Lord of the Rings, this is how I teach is what I teach really when I'm teaching Lord brings. Whenever you're teaching, doing these teaching things, you don't really need to tell people who people are. They know. I mean they're massively engaged, they're huge fans. So when you get to teaching people there, you'd no point saying, you know, and who was the steward of Gondor? You know. But what you can do is talk about what is good, what is power, what's the right use of power. Is gold good? You know, they're quite thought provoking questions and they lead to enormous discussions. Greater things. And I try and capture a sense of that as well. Try a tiny bit. Because just that sense of kind of going, things sometimes have weight, sometimes hobbits get an insight. You know, I grew up in the countryside. I've spent a lot of time in taverns. So, you know, it's. As well as my Tolkien knowledge, I've also got this great knowledge of some of these real world situations. And sometimes most beautiful and profound things can be said to you from people you just wouldn't expect them from, you know. Yeah. So I wanted to capture that as well. And then finally, also as I said before, sometimes a slight sense of loss of things that were that aren't there anymore, of friends that were there that have gone now, you know, old Ruby is gone. You actually go into her house. But there's been a few. The few times that the people mention her and you hear what she did and how people talk about it sort of becomes something, you know, she sort of become aware of her and got a sense of her and I hope kind of go, she sounds like she was lovely. I sound like. Sounds like somebody I really wish I could have met. You know. And I mean that's one example of those. Just that sense of something that is because, you know, Tolkien's third age is greater than the fourth age. Second age was greater than the third, you know, so powerful that characters like Aragorn and Theoden don't feel that they're. That they are just like lesser versions of greater size, you know.
- [94:36]
Alan Sisto
Yeah.
- [94:37]
Darren Ormandy
So powerful because of course they end up being the greatest of all of them, yeah. You know, I mean, there's. One of the most moving pieces in Lord of the Rings is Theoden before the walls of Minas Tirith, with the Pelina fields collapsing in despair and then suddenly rising up in despair. I mean, my God, I'm getting. I'm getting moved thinking about it now, you know, I mean, so powerful. So powerful. And just to get a sense that that's the world that Tolkien created and Tales of the Shire sits in that world and that we can believe it's part of that world. That's been what I've hoped to do.
- [95:14]
Alan Sisto
Well, one other way that Tolkien's made sure to tie his world together is the incredible use of language, specifically the constructed languages like Quenya and Sindarin. Hobbits are not known for speaking Elvish tongues. So I'm not expecting to hear Quenya. Quenya songs or anything like that. But the Hobbits language has some things in common with the language of Rohan. Tolkien even pointed out in Appendix F that when hobbits heard the speech of Rohan, they recognized many words and felt the language to be akin to their own. I'm. Yeah, thinking of the word mathem, for instance, which is straight out of Old English.
- [95:46]
Darren Ormandy
Yeah.
- [95:46]
Alan Sisto
That's why Rohirric is represented by Old English in Tolkien. Now, are there any nods at all to the linguistic roots of the Hobbits? And if so, how did you incorporate them?
- [95:56]
Darren Ormandy
Ah, what a great question. One of the things we experimented in was seeing whether we could actually have the Hobbits speaking Westron. Yeah, yeah. Which would have been. Because it would sound a little bit like Simlish, you know, so we did actually spend some time doing that, but there just wasn't enough, really wasn't enough to go, you know.
- [96:15]
Alan Sisto
No, it would have to be written stuff, I'm sure.
- [96:17]
Darren Ormandy
Yeah. And I mean, yes, we could have. You know, we could have spent that. We probably have to. I think the idea of, say, cutting the cooking in favor of having Westrom probably wouldn't have been the right decision to do. Yeah, I was gonna say take the.
- [96:28]
Alan Sisto
Game right out of the game and turn it into just a documentary.
- [96:32]
Darren Ormandy
Diehard Tolkien fans would never have anything bad to say about it.
- [96:34]
Alan Sisto
Exactly. He'd sell 17 copies. I'd buy two of them.
- [96:39]
Darren Ormandy
Exactly. Yeah. No, we did look at that. I mean, the linguistic. Well, really, I suppose linguistically, as I say, I tried to capture how Tolkien wrote and also the sort of the colloquialisms of the hobbits and the regionalisms of hobbits as well, and their phraseology. So, yeah, I really tried to capture that as it's expressed in the books then and also their sort of social status, as it were. So Orlo is a plain talking, you know, he's sort of. He's has a great kind of character progression, but. But he's basically more like a Sam kind of character. And I wrote him with that kind of west country voice and it's part of the country I went from. Sam Gamgee sounds like half the kids I went to school with. And then other characters like Nora, who's basically educated. A book Hobbit would actually have used better, bigger words. Her brother Fosco was very much inspired by William Morris, actually his values. He actually sort of paraphrases Morris at one point. And that again is like. Is one of those Easter eggs that's so niche. It's like nobody really get it. He's going, william Morris is a major influence on Polking House of the Wolfings, all that stuff, you know. Right. As well as the Pre Raphaelite movement and everything. So Morris felt like the sort of more aesthetic hobby would actually have William Morris values. But he probably has the most developed vocabulary. So they do all talk in different ways. And I mean, when you were talking about Rohan, I mean, it's one of my favorite little. Made me laugh out loud when I realized when they found the difference between the Rohan Westeron and the. And the Hobbits Western. Is there the connection between Kurduk and. And Rohirric. And there's that wonderful thing that the Hobbits don't have a formal. Now, I'm not a linguist, but a formal way of expressing.
- [98:24]
Alan Sisto
They don't have a formal second person pronoun. The thou.
- [98:27]
Darren Ormandy
The thou. The.
- [98:29]
Alan Sisto
They only have the informal. So when Pippen starts speaking to Denor using the informal, people are like, he must be of royalty.
- [98:37]
Darren Ormandy
Exactly, exactly. Yeah, that's.
- [98:39]
Alan Sisto
That's the line.
- [98:40]
Darren Ormandy
And Theoden finds it so endearing. You know, he does. He basically sits down and goes, hello, mate. Yeah, exactly.
- [98:47]
Alan Sisto
The king's like, wait a minute.
- [98:48]
Darren Ormandy
Normal people don't talk to you, you know. Yeah, I just thought that was.
- [98:53]
Alan Sisto
That was so great.
- [98:54]
Darren Ormandy
It's a wonderful thing. You know, some of the. Some of the. I mean, you kind of go, yeah, there's a very funny joke at the end of a long road you have to go down. But when you get it, it is actually really funny. It really is.
- [99:05]
Alan Sisto
And that's the thing that Tolkien did is fill his works with that sort of, you know, the Reward for going down those rabbit holes.
- [99:12]
Darren Ormandy
Absolutely.
- [99:13]
James Tauber
Well, I love the fact you talked about that. The different characters depending on sort of their social class, speaking differently. Because this is, again, something that Tolkien did really well. You mentioned at the start about the contractions. Right. The you're versus you are and so on. One of the things that I did, I recently did a master's degree. My dissertation was on Tolkien's linguistic.
- [99:33]
Darren Ormandy
Oh, wonderful.
- [99:33]
James Tauber
So one of the things I looked at was the way that different characters spoke. And it's amazing the extent to which Tolkien had different characters doing things like whether they contracted their words or not.
- [99:45]
Darren Ormandy
So. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [99:46]
James Tauber
Sam always says don't. He never says do not. The only. The only hobbits that say do not are Frodo and Mary. All the other hobbits contract to don't. Yeah, just that kind of detail. And I. I love hearing. Hearing that you're. Yeah, that's mindful of it.
- [100:02]
Darren Ormandy
Very mindful of it. Yeah. Well, that's great. And now all I want to do is read your dissertation. That sounds. I really love to read it. It sounds fascinating. Yeah. What a great thing.
- [100:11]
Alan Sisto
You'll definitely have to listen to the show because when he comes on, we're going to be doing episodes on, like, appendix.
- [100:15]
James Tauber
On the appendices.
- [100:16]
Darren Ormandy
Yes. Yeah.
- [100:17]
Alan Sisto
I mean, we're going to be diving into the language.
- [100:19]
Darren Ormandy
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Really, really great. So, yeah. So it's all those influences. I mean. Yeah, I hope that answers your question, actually, just because I was. That was quite an interesting one about going, you know, I mean, it's to say, you know, how does Tolkien's world influence the game is. You sort of wanted quite a full answer to that because, you know, there are different levels to it. I mean, just the. The only thing I would say, perhaps, to reassure people is that, you know, this isn't a kind of a history lesson in Tolkien. It's not a. It's not enough. You know, it's. Hopefully it provokes interest. It's a game, you know, but at the same time, I mean, this is Tolkien's thing, wasn't it, that he maintained. I mean, he was responsible. He's quite unpopular in some areas of Oxford, not for Lord of the Rings, but because he insisted that any student of English literature in Oxford needs to study Anglo Saxon. And it's. It was called the Anglo Saxon debate. Exactly. Yeah. And he was, of course, very strong about it. And you really should. You do need know Anglo Saxon. And it's still a matter of contention because they still do Teach Anglo Saxon. You know, in. In Oxford for literature students. His contention was, is that you don't need to know what a word means to get beauty and power from it. To get its beauty and its power. And that you don't even need. You don't need to be able to speak a language to be able to appreciate how that language is hanging together. Lord of the Rings is the most amazing demonstration of that. You know, we don't need to know that gone means stone. Right. But Gondor, Argonath, you know, Gondolin. Yeah, yeah. All of the. You know, it just has that. It's the most powerful way he could argue that, you know, that those. Those words have. Have all that meaning. So, yes, I also wanted that. I was very careful about that and quite hawkish. I made a rod for my own bank, really. Because, you know, other people were also contributing, you know, as writers, as part of the writing team. Yep. But I spent a lot of time going, no. And of course, because it's rather difficult because we're in New Zealand and there's a lot of New Zealanders here, and some Australians worked on this game as well, you know, as writers and that. And as I say, our vocabulary has changed. Yeah. You know, and as I was saying earlier on, I don't think Tolkien would have had a problem with that. You know, he. He was an. I mean, he was an expert in linguistic change. Like, that was his thing. And beyond that, upon the changing culture, that general and deep understanding of how culture changes as well. So within his own lifetime, when people were doing some crazy attempts to adapt Lord of the Rings for film and radio and everything else like that, he was never really on board with the Beatles playing.
- [102:52]
Alan Sisto
You know, Stanley Kubrick directing the Beatles.
- [102:57]
James Tauber
John Lin in his golem.
- [103:00]
Darren Ormandy
That was clearly never really a particular thing. That was. Yeah. It's funny thing about the Beatles, though, because, yeah, they want to. They must do, like, the end of A Midsummer Night's Dream. Like, quite a lot of it, like, in shape with. Yeah. With bottom. And, you know, the like is incredible. It's on his TV show, they just do Midsummer Night's Dream. It's the same. I think Peter Sellers does his Laurence Olivier impersonation of doing Richard III doing A Hard Day's Night in the Star. It's all on the same TV program. But I really do digress there. But, yeah, the Beatles doing laundry. I mean, like, he obviously wasn't bored of those. But I think also, if somebody had said to him, I think by the end, towards the End of his life, I think he got an understanding about just how successful it all was, that it was going to live beyond him. If somebody had said to him, well, in 2025, we're going to get people talking in technology that would amaze you, that we now just take for granted that we'd be talking about your work in all of this depth and everything else like that. And we have also done. We've added characters, we put in changes and things like that, then I think he'd understand that. I think he'd, you know, quite probably appreciate it, actually. I don't know. But there would certainly be an argument to be put to him of going that any great myth and story goes through interpretations. You know, King Arthur. How many different versions of King Arthur they've been Robin Hood, how many, you know, Errol Flynn to Kevin Costner to Tara Negaton, you know, I mean, like, how many different versions of those are there? Yeah. You know, even Sherlock Holmes, you know, if it's a great story, it will be retold.
- [104:31]
Alan Sisto
Yeah.
- [104:31]
Darren Ormandy
And it won't be reproduced. It's not a facsimile reproduction. It will be retold. And that's. The tale will grow in the telling. Yes, you know.
- [104:40]
Alan Sisto
Yes, it will.
- [104:41]
Darren Ormandy
And so, you know, to try and expand out and add more because, you know, if you really are an enthusiastic shyness, there's nothing, not actually very much of it. One of talking's enormous achievements is to make the shy feel so personal and important to us, and it's why we care. Yeah, it's the re. It's. It's the damsel in distress in the story, isn't it? Is. Is. Is the Shire, you know, it makes us care deeply. And, you know, it's so sad when the party tree, Sam, comes and finds the party tree come back cut down. And he says nothing hurt him as much. Everything he'd seen, you know, as this.
- [105:15]
Alan Sisto
Because that's how it comes home, right? I mean, that's.
- [105:17]
Darren Ormandy
That's how it comes about that. And we find that sad because we now deeply empathize with Sam. We understand his world and we love the Shire too. You know, I mean, our biggest tourist attraction here in New Zealand. I mean, the marvelous country with incredible landscape. Our biggest tourist attraction here is Hobbiton.
- [105:31]
Alan Sisto
Hobbiton.
- [105:32]
Darren Ormandy
Hobbiton film set, you know, and people come there who don't even know anything about Lord of the Rings, but they just know it's. They're coming there. Maybe they're. Because they're A relative or whatever, you know, people are going to come there and they go, this is just absolutely brilliant. I find it so stunning that people can go to someone like the Hobbiton film set with no knowledge whatsoever of Lord of the Rings, only like the most passing ambient cultural awareness of it, and come away going, this was just the most gorgeous place to go. Now, isn't that incredible that that can be captured, that the Shire can be made and created?
- [106:05]
James Tauber
You know, that that actually leads nicely into the next question, which is, and we've touched on this a little bit, that the sort of. The fact that. That there's two audiences to this game, there's the general gaming audience and there's the Tolkien audience. To what extent do you think those two audiences differ? And how have you worked to try.
- [106:23]
Darren Ormandy
To please both, for one thing, really trying to make the experience cozy, whether or not you are going to enjoy it, whatever. Keeping that coziness in mind as much as we possibly can. But there are some areas where we need to effectively create a game rather than an experience. You know, it needs to be a sense of, you know, there's all different factors coming to this, but one of it is obviously getting very good at something. Getting very good at, you know, getting very good at foraging or getting very good at cooking a particular meal. You know, things like that. We try and keep it within those parameters, but there are some. There are various motivations like that when it comes to games, you know, that they want to be able to do those things. A lot of gamers won't want to be bothered with anything of the stuff I've done. You know, they. They won't want to be there talking to hobbits and everything else like that. And if they realize they have to sort of go through it because they want to achieve something, and if they do, they need to get their relationship up to a certain level. They can't really do that. Or the quickest way to do that is to do this particular thing and maybe Farmer Cotton or Young think we're highly of you, they'll do it, but they'll kind of skip through the dialogue. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that is fine. Yeah, that's fine. Fine. As long as they're enjoying themselves, they can do what they want with it. Right, Right. So that's been. The challenge is to do that there. But we do. We need to keep sight of the cozy game thing. But this is what's so good about it being a cozy game, is that the cozy game in the Shire are just Perfect Bedford, really. You know, I mean, it's like the perfect place for it. So there is that there. You know, as far as how much actual kind of pure Tolkien, as it were, is being put into. Into the world there. You know, I mean, in some ways, maybe I'm the wrong person to ask about this because I just go. I truly believe in the intrinsic value of Tolkien's work, Tolkien's writings, Tolkien's values and what he espoused. I think if we were more. Well, to use the quote at the end of the Hobbit, if more people.
- [108:13]
James Tauber
I was going to say, rather than.
- [108:16]
Darren Ormandy
Hoarded gold, you know, the world would be on a kinder place. It would be, you know, and to give a chance to. I think those values still resonate with people. And there are plenty of people that read those words and feel really moved by them and then go around hoarding gold. You know, I mean, it's not. It's not. It's clearly not. You know, it's not working. It's not. But at the same time, you know, those values are there. And I think if those values, I think, also are the sort of values that are lovely to see in a cozy game. Yeah. So to. I feel no sense that it's wrong to really try and express something that's true to Tolkien's vision. And then a bit like I was saying about language and about, you know, that you don't need to know. Understand language to get a sense of beauty and see, people don't need to know what that funny inscription is or that funny picture that's be carved on an old piece of rock. Me. They don't need to know that. They don't need to know anything about the Three Farthing Stone other than the fact it's a place that they can have a nice meal. They even know why it's called the Free Farthing. You know, why that it is in itself slightly a linguistic joke. Because. Right. It's Three Farthing. Right. But, yeah, all the. Like, they don't need to know that. But other people will. Other people know. This is where Sam Gamgee will stand one day and he will throw the dust from. From the woods of Lorien. And the shot. Yeah, I mean, yeah, you know, that was something. And I think from that point of view as well, that was one of the moments. It's a good example, actually, of some time when I. I steered the characters away from sort of what if it wasn't set in the shy. If we weren't talking about this time that the characters quite naturally would have progressed to doing. I wanted to preserve that, you know, which I think is the right thing to do. But you know, there's certain things, I'm assuming being cryptic because obviously I want people to discover this themselves, but certain kind of characters progression. So they're going to be obviously going to come really good that and go, yeah, but they're alive at the same time as Sam. Unless they're one of the unfortunate hobbits who doesn't get through the Battle of Bywater, you know, but. But they're the same. They're going to be there with Sam, you know, like I need to keep that. That needs to be. We can't say. And the Shires restored through the magic of the Elves. But also because they. They'd had, you know, they'd managed to find their true destiny and became really good at gardening. You know, it's like there's some. There's something that needs to be kept which is that sense. I mean, you know, it is very beautiful. The idea of something that is so almost divine, certainly beyond our own life as the power of the Elves, that incredible power that they have that it actually comes back literally to the food we eat and the flowers we see, we can get that as well. And it. That whole great beauty comes down again. So yeah, in those areas, I've wanted to try and keep them. Keep those things fairly, you know, to preserve those things, even if they're only in anticipation. But by the same token, if you look around, you know, there are some high banked ditches. The road does go through some high banked ditches in Bywater. If you wanted to take as it should. Right. And if you wanted to go. Yeah, but how would they do the Battle of Bywater? Where was farmer Cotton standing?
- [111:13]
Alan Sisto
Where would we have that upturned cart?
- [111:15]
Darren Ormandy
Yes, exactly. Yeah. And we do actually have an upturn. Well, we don't have enough broken down card at one point, but. But it may or may not be the thing, but I think it's just really about reality, you know. I mean. Yeah, like he created such an incredible world that feels so real for so many people. I mean, his first great fan was his own son who has done an absolutely extraordinary job of giving us his father's legacy. I mean, I've only really started to become truly appreciate what. How important Christopher Tolkien is to the story of Tolkien and to us and to whatever happens now moving forward, you know. Yeah. An incredible thing. And it all hangs there. It feels. It felt, as he said to him, It Gondolin felt more real to him than somewhere like Babylon, you know. Yeah, it feels real to me. It does feel like a place.
- [111:58]
Alan Sisto
I know it does. There's no doubt about that.
- [112:02]
Darren Ormandy
Exactly. So if that's the case, then it can feel like that. It's felt like that to me since I first read it when I was 15 years old, when I didn't know what I was going to be in my life. That the last thing I ever imagined I'd be doing is sitting in New Zealand talking to you guys in America, writing a video game. That's my job, you know what I mean? I never ever imagined that be possible. But in those distant days that place was Middle Earth was so real to me and my imagination would just take me around. I just find myself looking in Edoras or you know, standing, you know, on a ship leaving the Gray Havens, you know, they were very real to me. And I think that that is what we want this game to feel like. It's a really lofty aspiration but you know, nothing is achieved without being like aiming for the best you possibly can. And that's what we've tried to do here.
- [112:54]
Alan Sisto
Well, speaking of that, actually, let's be honest here. Tales of the Shire has had a couple of release dates in a recent video. Richard Taylor himself said something along the lines of what you just said. He said, we don't want to fall short of the expectation we have on ourselves given this extra development time. What are a couple of the things that you personally have been able to add or improve in the game now that it has been delayed?
- [113:18]
Darren Ormandy
Yeah, it's actually, it really is about making the experience for the players as everything you want it to be across the different platforms. So it is something where we go, you know, we've, we've created the game. We would of course love to keep working on the game because like, you know, it's. There's always things you want to do, there's always new discoveries, new thoughts, new God. I feel you would just done that, you know, that would have been wonderful. But actually pragmatically there is, you know, there is a point where we've had to stop working on it so that it can be made as good as it can be. And now we're looking at, you know, we, we know there's very different types of platforms, different types of spaces. We want every player on all those platforms to get the very best experience they can, you know, and that is, you know, that is very tech. It's very challenging technically, not Always achievable for companies, but it's something that's very important to us as a company that we should do that. So that's what we're, that's what the delay has been about.
- [114:15]
Alan Sisto
Great.
- [114:16]
Darren Ormandy
And yeah, I mean, what's been really lovely, actually, is that, you know, we've seen the responses from people. People have been really kind about it. You know, we were kind of going, people aren't going to like this. And they've just gone, look, just get it right.
- [114:29]
Alan Sisto
You know, that's the thing. Delays can mean so many different things to gamers. You know, we, we look at a game that's delayed and we think, oh, it's awful, it's going to be awful. And they're just delaying the awful. But other times you get the sense that, okay, they know they can fix things, they know they can make it better, and they want to avoid maybe some recent example of a, of a poor game. I don't want to throw developers under the bus, but the most recent Middle Earth game that came out was a bit of a shambles, the Gollum game. I mean, it ended up resulting in the, in the unfortunate studio no longer even being a studio. Clearly you don't want to follow that example. And so I think gamers in the Middle Earth world are like, hey, look, they're just working hard to make sure they don't end up putting out something that is subpar. And Weta doesn't do subpar.
- [115:15]
Darren Ormandy
No.
- [115:15]
Alan Sisto
So I feel like there's, there's that too. Like Weta is you. You all have set the bar so high with everything else that you do that you're not going to accept a game that comes out that's just kind of meh.
- [115:26]
Darren Ormandy
Thank you for answering my question. Actually, that's really good.
- [115:30]
Alan Sisto
As a gamer. Right. Especially as a Middle Earth gamer who's. I've been playing because I've been in Middle Earth probably about as long as you, since I was about 13, 14 years old. I get the feeling we're men of a certain generation. And, you know, I've been playing video games as well for a very long time. I've been. I have a lifetime VIP subscription to Lord of the Rings Online because I bought that when the game was out, you know, when it first launched. And so, you know. Exactly. So. So playing Middle Earth is something I've been doing for, you know, decades. So I look at a project like yours and I think, okay, you know, they were the tea leaves. They see what's happened in the industry they're working on making this a better game. So I'm excited by the delay because it tells me you've got time to make it better, to give a better experience. But to hear you tell me, okay, it's very specifically that cross platform challenge which is incredibly technically difficult and you know, to be able to give people, you know, on a, on a cutting edge PC with a, you know, a 50 series, you know, Nvidia card, but also still be able to give somebody on the Nintendo Switch a really high quality experience. Those are so radically different platforms that yeah, it's going to be a technical challenge. So I'm personally, I'm all for it. I'm glad, I'm glad that you guys are doing that because it's going to make the experience.
- [116:45]
Darren Ormandy
So we're taking the time to do it. Yeah, I mean that's, that's, that's exactly it. Yeah. And you know, and I mean also, I mean I've worked in the film industry. I used to be an actress of saying I've also worked in filming, I made films and things like that. And you realize also is that, you know that, that like I really appreciate all the different Middle Earth games that have come out. I appreciate the fact that people are trying to extend the world. You know, not everything is going to land right with people and also not everything's going to land right when with the people that are making it. You know, it's that there can be some amazing complications that they've never anticipated. Some of those and you know, like we in, in, you know, in, in the challenges of the real world, it can come down to people, it can come down to technology, it can come down to, you know, like external forces on a company. There's all sorts of reasons why, why things may not land in the way that people hope. But what I really have appreciated is that, you know, that like it's a great, a great opportunity to think about, you know, what Gollum's up to or what happened with the Dwarves when they want to go back in and recolonize Moria and everything else like that. And just that excitement. Yeah. That there's so much exploration of the world, you know.
- [117:52]
Alan Sisto
Yes.
- [117:52]
Darren Ormandy
You know, and also I think respect for the world as well. You know, I've not, you know, there's, there's one of the things I could never say about, you know, when I see these, these games. You can never say they don't kind of want it to feel like proper talking.
- [118:04]
Alan Sisto
They're not, no disrespecting the ip not succeeded. You talk to the people, they clearly have a passion for it, like you said.
- [118:11]
Darren Ormandy
Yeah, whatever it may be. Yeah, exactly. You know, and they put it out there and, you know, the market decided and it doesn't. That's what it does, you know, and, but, but I just love the fact that there's so many different projects going. There's already, already be some great games, of course, Middle Earth games, but. And I mean, LOTRO is a great example of that, but, you know, the experiences and that. But yeah. So, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's great that we are doing that we're able to do this. We're able to allow people to keep exploring the world. And I really do hope that people, I mean, to me, the great. I mean, yes, I'm very much looking forward to my, my tribe of Tolkien enthusiasts acknowledging and appreciating and enjoying what we've put into the game. You know, that would show a deep understanding, but, you know, it's the people that kind of go, after playing this game. I now want to watch the Lord of the Rings film. Yeah. Yeah. As you say, we're of a certain age, so it's rather terrifying that anybody under the age of 21 was born when Fellowship came out.
- [119:11]
Alan Sisto
Curse you and your sudden but inevitable betrayal. How could you say such a thing? Yeah, you're right. But it's, it's a reminder of what we talked about earlier, that people will come to Tolkien and the books through so many different media. And in this case, it's just another door. It's another way for people to get into Tolkien. And I'm excited that people will.
- [119:31]
Darren Ormandy
Yeah, 100%.
- [119:32]
James Tauber
Okay, so tales of the Shire releases later this week. What's the highest praise that you hope to hear from Tolkien's fans about the game over the coming weeks? What would really make you happy to hear?
- [119:44]
Darren Ormandy
Great question. I mean, a couple, I suppose. One of which is that it's made me want to find out more about Tolkien.
- [119:50]
James Tauber
Yep.
- [119:51]
Alan Sisto
Good.
- [119:51]
Darren Ormandy
That would be wonderful. One would be, it feels like it was written by Tolkien. Wouldn't that be great? I don't think I'm going to get that one. But the other thing, I just want. I just want people to say it made me happy. It made me. It made me. It made me smile, it made me laugh, it made me feel really good playing it. I think if I do that, we do that. It's not me. It's like a whole studio. People. I've just had a very small part to play, you know, but at the same time, if we managed to do that, we gave people joy and happiness. You know, this game is conceived in those days of COVID when we really saw the value of celebrating these simple pleasures. And, you know, to go to return to that now, if we can do that, then I think that that really is what we aimed to do and that is probably the best way we can honor Tolkien's legacy. I love that.
- [120:40]
James Tauber
Wonderful.
- [120:41]
Alan Sisto
Well, Darren, thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate it.
- [120:45]
Darren Ormandy
A real pleasure.
- [120:46]
Alan Sisto
We're looking forward to maybe having you come back on in a year or two when the first expansion packs hit the shelves or the title gets ready to go.
- [120:52]
Darren Ormandy
Yeah, give me a shot.
- [120:52]
Alan Sisto
You're going to have to have you back for now, though, folks. That wraps it up for another episode of the Prancing Pony Podcast and for season nine of the show. The PPP will be on hiatus through August and the first two weeks of September, but we will launch season 10 on September 21st as we celebrate Hobbit Day.
- [121:08]
James Tauber
Buba and Frodo's birthday is actually the 22nd, of course, but what's a day between friends? Folks, Alan and I want to thank the members of Team PPP editor Jordan Reynolds Barlow and Becca Davis, social media manager Casey Hilsey, Event and Patreon, community coordinator Katie McKenna, graphic artist Megan Collins and website guru Phil Dane.
- [121:29]
Alan Sisto
And please take a minute to check out the prancingponypodcast.com that's where you'll find our show notes, outtakes, Prancing Pony ponderings, and our online social storefront where you can get PPP merch featuring all the great episode artwork that Megan's been doing for the show since the start of Season seven.
- [121:43]
James Tauber
You'll also want to visit our library page. The Prancing Pony Podcast is first and foremost a podcast about the books. So if you're interested in a book we've mentioned on the show, you'll find a link for it in our library. The PPP gets a small amount of compensation when you make a purchase, and we thank you for that.
- [121:59]
Alan Sisto
Indeed we do. And we also want to thank our patrons at the Kirdan's contribution distribution tier. I'll start with Demay in Alaska, Chad in Texas, Lance in New Jersey, Joseph in Michigan, Kathy from North Carolina, Carlos in California, Brian in the uk, Jerry from Washington, Joe in Washington, Irwin from the Netherlands, Ben in Minnesota, Anthony in Texas, Zaksu in Illinois, Sarah in New Jersey, Joshua in Massachusetts, Lucy in Texas Keith in Alabama, Erica in Texas, and Vivian in California.
- [122:27]
James Tauber
There's also James in Maharashtra, Massachusetts, Ann in Kentucky, Sean in New Jersey, Mason in California, Maureen from Massachusetts, Olivia in London, Robert in Arizona, Nick in Wisconsin, Lewis in South Carolina, Thomas in Germany, Craig in California, Bailey in Texas, Kevin in Massachusetts, Julie in Washington, Bruce in California, Joe in Maryland, Nathan in Arizona, and Kevin in Pennsylvania. Thank you all so very much for your support indeed.
- [122:56]
Alan Sisto
Thank you.
- [122:57]
James Tauber
Make sure you don't miss any episodes of the Prancing Pony Podcast. Subscribe now through Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or your favorite podcast app.
- [123:06]
Alan Sisto
And one last thing. As always, don't forget to send your thoughts, comments, and most of all, your opinion of Weta Workshop's Tales of the Shire game to BarLamonDhprancingPonyPodcast.com and if you.
- [123:17]
James Tauber
Want your voice literally heard, well, well, just send us an audio of your question. Visit podinbox.com prancingponypod and record your question for us. Be sure to still email the question to Barliman, though.
- [123:30]
Alan Sisto
Indeed. Now, even though Barliman's been a lot more reliable lately, there's still a lot of mail to sort through. We'll try to get to you just as soon as we're able. As always, though, this has been far too short a time to spend among such excellent and admirable listeners. But until next time, may you rekindle.
- [123:46]
James Tauber
Hearts in a world that grows chill.