387 – We Can Work it Out

Summary

The Prancing Pony Podcast – Episode 387: "We Can Work it Out"

Date: October 26, 2025
Hosts: Alan Sisto & Sara Brown
Notable Guests: Tom (North Wing Patron Segment)

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Main Episode Theme:

The Challenge of Relationship, Communication, and Duty in "Aldarion and Erendis"

This episode of The Prancing Pony Podcast delves deep into the next segment of J.R.R. Tolkien's tale "Aldarion and Erendis" from Unfinished Tales. Alan and Sara explore themes of love, communication (or the lack thereof), generational dynamics, and conflicting priorities between vocation and partnership. The hosts, with self-effacing humor and scholarly insight, highlight the intricacy of the story’s relationships, present a detailed breakdown of the main characters' choices, and reflect on Tolkien’s own voice within the tale.

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Detailed Recap and Discussion Points

1. Opening & North Wing Listener Segment

Timestamps: 04:02 – 09:06
Discussion:

• Special guest Tom from Pittsburgh shares his Tolkien journey, starting with the Rankin/Bass animated films at age 4.
• Family reactions: Wife thinks he's "a bit obsessive"; kids enjoy Tolkien, currently reading The Lord of the Rings together.
• Favorite work: The Silmarillion for its depth; favorite non-legendarium: "Leaf by Niggle".
• "You find something new every time you read one of the books." – Tom [05:51]
• Tolkien goals include attending Oxonmoot in Oxford ("One of these days… maybe when the kids are older" [07:04])
• Favorite scene: Shelob's Lair; favorite elf: Círdan; Rohan vs. Gondor ("not a farm guy, so I'd have to say Gondor" [08:10]); favorite Tolkien artist: Alan Lee.

Memorable Quote:
"I find some little snippet that you didn’t catch before and you’re like, oh wow, that totally changed how I looked at that character." – Tom [05:55]

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2. Recapping the Plot: "Aldarion & Erendis" – Last Episode to Now

Timestamps: 09:13 – 11:33
Key Points:

• The hosts recount the growing tensions between Aldarion and Erendis — debates about sharing love for the sea versus the land, misunderstandings, and emotional distance.
• Erendis’ and Aldarion’s conflict is both personal and emblematic of incompatible passions.

Memorable Quote:
"It didn’t go well…anybody who’s been in a relationship for a long time can say I can remember a few quiet car rides." – Alan Sisto [12:06-12:24]

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3. Generational Dynamics & Parental Advice

Timestamps: 12:35 – 26:59
Key Points:

• Erendis seeks advice from her mother, Nuneth, after separating from Aldarion. Nuneth’s advice: a woman "must share her husband’s love with his work…or make him a thing not lovable." [13:10-15:18]
• Sara and Alan sharply critique Nuneth’s advice as one-sided, reflecting on partnership dynamics:
  • Alan: "It isn’t only her having to share me with the show. It’s also me having to share her with her work… That’s how a partnership is supposed to work." [15:41-16:26]
  • Sara: "My husband goes out fishing… can’t think of many things I’d like to do less, but I ensure he has the time… he has never been anything but 100% supportive of anything I’ve done." [16:22-17:09]
• Analysis of love as not a finite resource: "Love is not pie. You can give your love to a person and to a hobby." – Sara Brown [19:03]
• The hosts discuss how deep-seated generational expectations and lack of balance cause dysfunction, not just in Erendis but in her daughter later (Ancalimë), and consider Tolkien’s intent.
• Nuneth’s ulterior motive is revealed: Her priority is royal grandchildren, not her daughter’s wellbeing [25:51-26:40].

Memorable Quote:
"Love is not pie. You know, love is infinite… gives me a chuckle." – Sara Brown [19:03]
"Here is a reason why Erendis had this viewpoint. She grew up in this environment where she was being told, she is the one who has to change, she is the one who has to capitulate…" – Alan Sisto [24:58]

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4. Textual Discussion – Reconciliation & Commitment

Timestamps: 29:36 – 36:32
Key Points:

• After much tension, Erendis agrees to return to Armenelos; the queen (Almariën) and Nuneth encourage her, but it’s ultimately her choice.
• Aldarion and Erendis publicly reconcile and, during the Erukyerme (Sacred Festival of Spring), their betrothal is confirmed atop the Meneltarma, signaling their official commitment [36:32].

Quote:
"…as public a confirmation that, yes, they are still an item… their separation is no longer a thing…" – Alan Sisto [35:44-36:09]

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5. The Philosophical Debate: Gifts, Ambition & Contentment

Timestamps: 38:48 – 55:40
Key Points:

• Erendis asks Aldarion if he loves Númenor for itself; he deflects, speaks of the island’s "potential"; she argues that true love and gratitude value the gift for its own sake, not as a resource for expansion [43:58-45:44].
• Alan and Sara unpack:
  • Aldarion sees resources and power; Erendis sees intrinsic value and presence.
  • “Love the land for itself… not for barter, for more or for better…”
  • Living for a "phantom of our own design"—the dangers of always seeking the future and not living in the now [49:52-54:33].
  • The symbolism and tradition of the "Star-brow" (Tar-Elestirnë) and the differences in legacy lines (Erendis' jewel vs. the Elendilmir).

Notable Quotes:
"Love is infinite. That means that you can give your love to a person and to a hobby." – Sara Brown [19:31]
"We cannot dwell in the time that is to come, lest we lose our now for a phantom of our own design." – Erendis (read by Sara) [46:36]
"It's hardly ever as cut and dried as that… Sometimes it’s left kind of open." – Sara Brown [47:56]
"Now and in all nows. [pause] So good." – Alan Sisto [49:13]
"These words of Erendis resonate down the centuries." – Sara Brown [54:32]

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6. Cracks Beneath the Surface: After the Betrothal

Timestamps: 62:05 – 77:41
Key Points:

• Meneldur (the King) gives Erendis land and a house as a betrothal gift—Alan notes: "huge tracts of land" [62:45].
• Aldarion offers “other jewels” but Erendis chooses the original diamond—a symbol of their fraught and lengthy relationship.
• Erendis becomes Tar-Elestirnë, the Lady of the Star-brow—establishing a royal tradition.
• Joy is short-lived: Aldarion's absence from the Guild of Venturers causes dissent; his duty to the forests is neglected, timber runs short.
• Erendis tries to share in Aldarion’s forestry (her mother’s advice), but is distressed by the felling of trees. She withdraws, and their time together wanes even before marriage ("they were less in company" [62:30]).

Quote:
"That does not bode well." – Sara Brown [62:05]
"She’s trying, isn’t she? She’s trying to share her husband’s love...but it’s too much for nothing back." – Alan Sisto [62:28]

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7. The Sea-Longing Strikes: Delay and Escapism

Timestamps: 77:57 – 88:25
Key Points:

• Custom dictates betrothals last no more than three years, but Aldarion continues to delay.
• While visiting Erendis’ family ahead of the anticipated wedding, the “sea-longing” seizes Aldarion powerfully: "as though a great hand had been laid on his throat…" [81:32-82:28]; he fights it, but grows withdrawn and distant.
• Erendis senses trouble, is emotionally shaken, but neither confront it: "Still he said nothing to her of his trouble, for indeed he was at war within himself and irresolute." [80:55]
• The effects of silence: Nuneth believes "words may open wounds," but Alan and Sara forcefully argue that silence can be even more damaging ("silence can rip those wounds open…" [86:12]).

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8. The Father–Son Confrontation: Duty versus Desire

Timestamps: 88:25 – 122:56
Key Points:

• After more than three years, Meneldur summons Aldarion, questions the continued delay: “when will you give me the daughter I have so long desired? ... More than three years have now passed…” [97:08]
• Aldarion, overtaken again by the sea-longing, makes excuses; Meneldur states plainly: "a man shall not have two wives… you cannot wed the sea, for you are affianced to Erendis." [105:28]
• Aldarion’s responses are evasive, defensive, and unfairly shift blame onto Erendis for her prior caution ("She held back well nigh 12 years when I was eager" [116:42]).
• Meneldur counters with clarity: At the time, Erendis was not bound by betrothal, but now neither of them is free. Aldarion owes her an implied promise, for she accepted his suit trusting he was "master of himself."
• Aldarion resents being "pushed," leaves angry—a cycle of self-centeredness, pride, and deflection ("It was ever his mood if he thought that others combined to urge him... to turn away from it." [109:05])
• Alan and Sara discuss how Aldarion's selfishness, transactional view of relationships, and emotional immaturity are at the root of all these missed connections and pain.

Notable Quotes:
*"You take your grace for granted…" – Meneldur [116:00]
"That is toddler-level stuff." – Alan Sisto [111:01]
"If you want to be a sailor, be a sailor. Tell her it isn’t going to work and go." – Sara Brown [90:50]
"All of this points to him making choices, selfishly choices... he has no real consideration for Erendis or anyone." – Sara Brown [121:07]
"We can only understand what we experience. He can feel sorrow and be sad for [Aldarion], but he doesn’t understand ships and the sea have just never been his jam." – Alan Sisto [105:10]

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9. Listener Q&A: Parallels to Fëanor

Timestamps: 122:56 – 126:37
Question: Does Aldarion’s obsession with shipbuilding parallel Fëanor’s obsession with the Silmarils?
Discussion:

• Both driven by creative ambition, both selfish and resistant to counsel or restriction, both have obsessions that damage those around them.
• Fëanor’s choices bring catastrophic results quickly; Aldarion’s damage builds slowly, echoing down generations—especially to daughter Ancalimë.
• Both exhibit "a strong core of selfishness" and have consequences that outlast their own lives.

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Notable Moments & Quotes

• "Love is not pie." – Sara Brown [19:03]
• "You take your grace for granted." – Meneldur [116:00]
• "Silence can rip those wounds wide open with far more efficacy and cause plenty of new ones." – Alan Sisto [86:12]
• "If you want to be a sailor, be a sailor. Tell her it isn’t going to work and go." – Sara Brown [90:50]
• "That is toddler-level stuff." – Alan Sisto [111:01]
• "These words of Erendis resonate down the centuries." – Sara Brown [54:32]
• "He’s not hoarding it. She’s not locking away and putting out of use the land that is that gift." – Sara Brown [56:44]

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Episode Summary & Takeaways

• The hosts provide a sensitive, sometimes scathing but always thoughtful analysis of the complicated relationships at the heart of "Aldarion and Erendis."
• Themes explored include: the burdens of generational expectation, the double-edged sword of passion, the necessity of partnership and balance in relationships, and the tragic consequences of poor communication.
• Alan and Sara repeatedly invite listeners to reflect on Tolkien’s own experiences and possible intentions, making connections to other works, and drawing out universal truths from Middle-earth.

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For Next Time

The hosts tease the upcoming "wedding of the century" and further relationship breakdowns, promising even more nuance, puns, and Tolkienian drama.

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Navigation Quick Reference

• Listener Segment (“Tom”/North Wing): 04:02 – 09:06
• Parental Advice/Generational Drama: 12:35 – 26:59
• Reconciliation/Betrothal: 29:36 – 36:32
• Thematic Debate (Gifts/Love): 38:48 – 55:40
• Sea-Longing & Withdrawal: 77:57 – 88:25
• Father–Son Showdown: 88:25 – 122:56
• Listener Q&A (Fëanor Parallels): 122:56 – 126:37

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Note: All ad reads, intros, and outros skipped for summary.
Hosts’ Tone: Scholarly, witty, accessible, and empathetic—true Tolkien pub chat!

Transcript

[Tom]

Time.

[Alan Sisto]

It's always vanishing.

[Sara Brown]

The commute, the errands, the work functions, the meetings. Selling your car. Unless you sell your car with Carvana.

[Alan Sisto]

Get a real offer in minutes.

[Sara Brown]

Get it picked up from your door. Get paid on the spot so fast you'll wonder what the catch is. There isn't one. We just respect you and your time. Oh, you're still here. Move along now. Enjoy your day.

[Alan Sisto]

Sell your car today.

[Sara Brown]

Carvana.

[Alan Sisto]

Pick up.

[Sara Brown]

Fees may apply.

[Alan Sisto]

This episode is brought to you by Jack Daniels. Jack Daniels and music are made for each other. They share a rhythm in the craft of making something timeless while being a part of legendary nights. From backyard jams to sold out arenas, there's a song in every toast. Please drink responsibly. Responsibility.org Jack Daniels and old number seven are registered trademarks. Tennessee whiskey, 40% alcohol by volume. Jack Daniel Distillery, Lynchburg, Tennessee. The holidays have arrived at the Home Depot and we're here to help bring the excitement with decor for every part of your home. Check out our wide assortment of easy to assemble pre lit trees so you can spend less time setting up and more time celebrating. And bring your holiday spirit outdoors with unique decor like one of our Santa inflatables. Whatever your style, find the right pieces at the right prices this holiday season at the Home Depot. Good evening, little masters, and welcome to episode 387 of the Prancing Pony Podcast where I had hoped to see fair grandchildren.

[Sara Brown]

Well, let's hope they're not cradled in the king's house though.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, no.

[Sara Brown]

Please, folks, pull up a bench in the common room and join us. I'm Sara Brown, the shield maiden of Rohan, and I'm here with the man of the west who would also enjoy the view from the slopes of the Menel Tarma. Alan Sisto.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, who wouldn't? I just wouldn't enjoy climbing it necessarily.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, that's fair.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a whole other story, folks. Join us as Nunez offers questionable advice. Arrendis finally says yes. And the sea longing tries to choke out Eldarion.

[Sara Brown]

Well, hold on, because later on it's going to be horrendous. He's going to want to do that.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a very good point. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Now, no matter whether you came to Middle Earth through the books, the films, the TV show, or something else, each of you is welcome here in our common room. The Prancing Pony Podcast continues in our 10th season of Reading and talking our way through Middle Earth with conversations, digressions and even some speculations.

[Alan Sisto]

Three or four not to Mention a few puns and bad jokes here and there, despite your requests to the contrary. But our purpose here is to dive deep into the lore. Discuss the story, favorite characters, the recurring themes, Tolkien's inspirations, and a whole lot more.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, and while we do take the work seriously, the same cannot be said about ourselves. We're just a couple of friends chatting at the pub. And we're really glad you've joined us.

[Alan Sisto]

Indeed, and I'm sure you'll be glad you joined as well. But before we get to tonight's chapter discussion, we're going to do a little time travel back to when I was working with James last year when we sat down with one of our patrons in the North Wing. And today we're bringing you another new installment of the North Wing. Barleyman Butterbur had a room or two in the North Wing at the Prancing Pony Inn, made special for hobbits. And this is our place made special for some of our listeners to give us a chance to get to know them. That's right. Now, rooms at the North Wing are a little hard to come by, so only our patrons at the Elronds Honorarium and Kierdan's contribution tiers are eligible. If you'd like to be one of the next patrons to join us, be sure to check out patreon.com prancingponypod Please do. We've got a waiting list for the North Wing right now, but we'll get to them all soon and we'll make room for more if necessary. All right, well then, why don't we welcome today's guest to the North Wing, Tom. Good.

[Tom]

Hey, thanks for having me, guys.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, it's really our pleasure, Tom. Thanks for joining us today. Okay, Tom, tell us a bit about yourself. Where are you from? What do you do, what do your loved ones think of all this Tolkien stuff that you're so into? Don't think you're a total nerd. Do they like it? That sort of thing?

[Tom]

Let's see, I'm, my name's Tom. I'm from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, 43 years old. I've been into Tolkien since I was probably about 4 years old. You know, the old Rankin and Bass films. Got into it at a young age. And as for my family, my wife thinks I'm a bit obsessive. You know, always new books coming in the mail and that nature. And my kids, I have a 12 year old and a 9 year old and I'm actually in the middle of reading both of them them through the Lord of the Rings.

[Alan Sisto]

Good.

[Tom]

They're getting into it.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, that's great. Yeah.

[Tom]

So we went to see the War of the Rohirrim. They loved it.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, fun.

[Tom]

Yeah, it's so. I've got the youth on my side. The wife, maybe she'll get there.

[Alan Sisto]

She'll get there. At least she'll. She'll certainly tolerate it, and that's always good. Well, the question that we ask everyone who comes to the Prancing Pony, and you've touched on it a little bit, but I want to hear more about it. When and how did you first discover Tolkien's works? You mentioned the Rankin and Bass films, and then what was your experience like? And why do you keep coming back?

[Tom]

Like I said, probably when I was about four, my older brother had been reading the Hobbit in school. It was required reading and he made me watch the Rankin and Bass films with him. The Lord of the Rings and the.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, it was The Hobbit from 77 and the Return of the King in. Yeah. It's a very unusual cut.

[Tom]

And I just. That animation style and everything just. I fell in love with the story and then went. Once I got to the age where I could read, I started with the Hobbit and just kept going.

[Alan Sisto]

And what is it that keeps you coming back to Middle Earth?

[Tom]

You find something new every time you read one of the books.

[Alan Sisto]

That's true.

[Tom]

You find some little snippet that you didn't catch before and you're like, oh, wow, that totally changed how I looked at that character.

[Alan Sisto]

That's so true. So what's your favorite book in the Legendarium, and why? And do you have a favorite non Legendarium work?

[Tom]

Say, favorite non Legendarium currently is probably Leaf by Niggle. Just because I think everyone can relate to that underappreciated artist in their life.

[Alan Sisto]

That is true.

[Tom]

And in the Legendarium, really, the Silmarillion, just because it's so much backfill for everything that I read it is as a child. And then when I read the Silmarillion, I was, oh, that fills in so many of the voids in the work.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. And yet still gives you more textual ruins to think about it and leaves more gaps. That's right. Well, any Tolkien goals that you'd like to share? Maybe tracking down a special book for your collection? Going to a moot or conference, Anything like that?

[Tom]

I would really love to get to a mute in Cambridge.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yeah, Like Oxford. Yeah.

[Tom]

Oxenmute over in Oxford. Oxford, not Cambridge. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Good old Oxenmute. Yes.

[Tom]

One of these days, maybe when the kids are a little older and I can escape.

[Alan Sisto]

It's definitely worthwhile if you can get to an oxen mood, no doubt about.

[Tom]

That, is to get over there and sit under the tree and take a.

[Alan Sisto]

Walk around Addison's Walk and sort of walk in the footsteps of Tolkien and Lewis and all the others. Fantastic. And now for a lightning round of quick questions and answers. Favorite scene or moment in the legendarium?

[Tom]

I love the scene in Shelob's lair. That's just not even just on screen in the books. That just really puts me in a place. It just gets me every time. Creepy and emboldening. It's just a good scene.

[Alan Sisto]

It does capture a lot. You mentioned the Silmarillion as your favorite legendarium book, so that leads me to ask you this. Who's your favorite elf from the first age?

[Tom]

Overall? Priker Dan is my favorite elf.

[Alan Sisto]

Mm.

[Tom]

Well done.

[Alan Sisto]

You knew James was gonna be on this episode, huh?

[Tom]

That's just did your homework. Yeah, I'd have to say Kieran.

[Alan Sisto]

Fair choice. Excellent choice. Okay. Rohan or Gondor?

[Tom]

Ah, that's tough. I'm not a farm guy, so I'd have to say Gondor.

[Alan Sisto]

Fair enough. Favorite poem or song in the legendarium?

[Tom]

I know I always get a good chuckle out of anything, Tom Bombadil. It's just the way they roll off.

[Alan Sisto]

The tongue and little tetracameter and that. It's always fun.

[Tom]

Yeah, it's always gives me a chuckle.

[Alan Sisto]

Very excellent choice. Okay. Favorite Tolkien artist or work of art?

[Tom]

I would say Alan Lee. Definitely his artwork on the covers and just fantastic.

[Alan Sisto]

He does a good job, no doubt about it. Well, Tom, those are some great answers. We really appreciate your time here. We've enjoyed having you here on the north wing. But it is time for us to head back to the common room to join the rest of the listeners. Thanks again.

[Tom]

Thank you for having me. Have a great day.

[Alan Sisto]

Thanks again. We'll see you back at our next questions after nightfall, if not sooner. And now we return you to the podcast in progress. Always a pleasure to get to know some of our listeners.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, and the Tolkien fandom is filled with some wonderful people, and I'm glad so many of them have found their way to the PPP community.

[Alan Sisto]

Indeed.

[Sara Brown]

But it is time to get back into the text now, I think. I mean, after all, we had to move this first discussion point from where we originally had it last week, right?

[Alan Sisto]

We did. We did. I mean, we were almost two hours anyway, and we would have definitely Gone long.

[Sara Brown]

So it's almost like we have things to say about this story.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm discovering that I'm hoping that 10 episodes is actually, you know, a large enough allocation.

[Sara Brown]

Let's push for 20. We can do it.

[Alan Sisto]

Might have to trigger the schedule a little bit. All right, so just pick up where we left off last week. Then they wrote a great while in silence. And after that day they parted and Horrendous returned to her father's house. To him she said nothing, but to her mother, Nooneth, she told the words that had passed between herself and Aldarion. All are nothing. Horrendous said Nooneth, So you were as a child. But you love this man, and he is a great man, not to speak of his rank. And you will not cast out your love from your heart so easily, nor without great hurt to yourself. A woman must share her husband's love with his work and the fire of his spirit. Or make him a thing not lovable. But I doubt that you will ever understand such counsel. Yet I am grieved, for it is full time that you will wed. And having borne a fair child, I had hoped to see fair grandchildren. Nor if they were cradled in the king's house, would that displease me. This counsel did not indeed move the mind of Arendus. Nevertheless, she found that her heart was not under her will. And her days were empty, more empty than in the years when Aldarian had been gone. For he still abode in Numenor. And yet the days passed and he did not come again into the west. Now Almarion the queen, being acquainted by Nooneth with what had passed, and fearing lest Eldarion should seek solace in voyaging again, for he had been long ashore, sent word to Arundus asking that she return to Armenelas. And Arendus, being urged by Nuneth and by her own heart, did as she was bid there. She was reconciled to Aldarion. And in the spring of the year when the time of the Eruchierme was come, they ascended in the retinue of the king to the summit of the Meneltarma, which was the hallowed mountain of the Numenoreans.

[Sara Brown]

All right, so to just refresh folks memories about the last time Eldarion and Arendus had actually chatted together. Yeah, been a little bit of, shall we call it, tension between them? Should we call it tension?

[Alan Sisto]

Maybe even elevate it to snark a little bit? There were a couple of little biting.

[Sara Brown]

Moments, I'll give you that. I'll give you that. Yes. There was a whole thing about, I'm not going to share my husband with the sea and a little bit about, well, you know, pick a tree that you'd like to save and all that kind of thing. And it didn't go well.

[Alan Sisto]

No, it didn't.

[Sara Brown]

It didn't go well. And after that lovely little conversation, they rode a great while in silence. Probably best.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, probably. And I think, you know, anybody who's been in a relationship for a long time can say I can remember a few quiet car rides. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Yes. Well, this one was definitely a quiet car ride to the point that they. They split up the next day.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Yeah. Yep. And for quite some time, it would appear.

[Sara Brown]

It would appear so.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes.

[Sara Brown]

And horrendous. She just went back home.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Interestingly, though, when she gets home, she doesn't say a word to her dad. She talks to her mom. I'm not sure that's her best choice. I don't know. We don't ever hear a word from her dad. But given the advice that Nooneth provides in a few moments, including this one, you kind of like, could you do better by talking to somebody else? Maybe. I don't know.

[Sara Brown]

Well, I've got to say, I disagree with pretty much everything Nooneth said.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm not surprised. I'm not surprised. Yeah. Yes.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

But we'll get to the actual.

[Sara Brown]

We'll get to that.

[Alan Sisto]

We will. We will.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. Yeah. And when she does update her mother, her response is, well, let's talk about this.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

And she acknowledges and, well, not that subtly, frankly, criticizes Arenda's tendency to be all or nothing.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that's true. It's not very subtle at all.

[Sara Brown]

No.

[Alan Sisto]

And then she points out that going the nothing route. Right. You know, it's all or nothing, as we've talked about that before. Right. Defeat the sea or be utterly defeated. That is the theme from here on out for Horrendous. But if you go that nothing route with Eldari, and that's not going to be easy, you can't just flip a switch and stop loving him. It's going to hurt you if you cut him out of your life. But is it going to hurt her less now than if she. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, get it over with.

[Sara Brown]

This is it. Yeah, Yeah. I mean, luckily, I've not been placed in this position of having to give this kind of advice, but not to my daughter, anyway, who, frankly, is quite capable of making up her own mind. But anyway, this whole thing about it will Hurt if you stop loving him might be true. But when the pain down the line from holding on to him is definitely going to be worse. I mean, frankly, it's time to cut the connection.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, Yeah. I think that's the better advice here. But as we'll see, Nuneth has, shall we say, motives.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. And I think her motives are a little bit dodgy, frankly.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, very, very dodgy.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

But before we get to the motives, we get to the actual advice. What did you think about that?

[Sara Brown]

Oh, do you really want to know? Shall I just go full Sara throttle on this one?

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, 80%. Let's see. You know.

[Sara Brown]

Okay. I'll dial it back a touch. Only because it's you. Yes, it definitely is scratching on my last nerve, this bit. A woman is required to share her husband's love with his work and whatever the fire of his spirit is. Or. And we'll get to the or in a bit. Let's first talk about why this is good or bad advice. And frankly, I think it's atrocious.

[Alan Sisto]

I was going to say. I'm pretty sure I knew what you were going to say. Yeah. I mean, there's. I don't think it's awful to recognize that any person. And this is why I want to take the gender part out of this man or woman. If you got to work for whatever reason, you're going to put your time and effort into it. And that does require a spouse to be understanding to an extent. Doesn't mean they have to necessarily share the love.

[Sara Brown]

No, that's pushing it too far.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. I think my real gripe about this is that she's focusing only on what on the woman must do, not on what the man must do.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, hallelujah. Yep. I knew you get there.

[Alan Sisto]

It's just spouse. I mean, there's definite truth to that. I have to know when my wife's working late on a major project at her work, I've got to give her room for that and step up and do some other things. And when I'm, you know, hitting major deadlines with the show and I'm, you know, trying to do a double for two weeks in a row, she's got to do the same thing. But it isn't only her having to share me with the show. It's also me having to share her with her work.

[Sara Brown]

Because that's how a partnership is supposed to work. Right?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. It's. A partner must share their partner's love with their work.

[Sara Brown]

Right. I mean, my husband goes out fishing whenever he Can. I can't think of many things I'd like to do less, but I am more than happy to ensure that he has the time and the space in which to go fishing. When he.

[Alan Sisto]

Fishing, that's the fire of his spirit, you know, or at least that's part of the fire of his spirit. Okay, great. You've got stuff that, I mean, you know, that's the fire of your spirit that he would also theoretically be more than happy to support you doing.

[Sara Brown]

Well, that's it. I mean, he has never. I'm sorry to share this with you. He has never read any Tolkien. It's just not his thing. Yeah, but he has never been anything but 100% supportive of anything I've done from doing the PhD right the way through to.

[Alan Sisto]

That takes a lot of support.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, my goodness. You have no idea. I'd never have got through it without his support.

[Alan Sisto]

PhDs. The amount of work, I can't. I'm always in awe of those of you who are able to do that.

[Sara Brown]

Whilst working as a teacher and raising a kid and running a school. Boarding house. Yes, it was.

[Alan Sisto]

I didn't know you were doing that, too. My goodness. That's sleeping every other day for three hours. Yeah. Nuneth, if she just kind of took the roles and gender stuff out of this, I think she's not wrong. But then she gets to a part that I really have an issue with. Right. I want to talk about the second aspect of this statement or make him a thing not lovable. She's saying, in other words, if a woman refuses to share her husband's love, according to her counsel, doing that would change him, would make him a thing that is unlovable.

[Sara Brown]

I don't agree with that.

[Alan Sisto]

I can't buy that part because that's. That's. No. First off, is that accurate at all? Even if we take gender out of it. Right. Without. Without making it male, female specific. But just partner. Partner.

[Sara Brown]

No, I don't think it makes sense. I think it's the problem is the word share here. Right?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Share the love of thing, activity, whatever. You don't have to share it. You just have to understand that your partner or this other person loves that thing, but you don't have to partake in it.

[Alan Sisto]

No. And I think in a way, I wonder if what she's saying is more like, okay, Aldarian has X amount of love. Let's say he has 100 units of love and he gives 50 units of love to the sea and 50 units of love to horrendous. That's the sharing. In other words, you're not that you have to share in the love of the sea, but you have to allow and share. His love for you will be less because he loves the sea. I don't think that makes any more.

[Tom]

Right.

[Sara Brown]

No. I mean, here's the great thing about love. Love is not pie.

[Alan Sisto]

No, exactly. This isn't a if you kind of.

[Sara Brown]

Pie in home, then. Yes. If you share the pie with one other person, then you can only have 50% of the pie.

[Alan Sisto]

Now I'm hungry for pie.

[Sara Brown]

What's your favorite?

[Alan Sisto]

Chocolate silk.

[Sara Brown]

Interesting. I've never had that. Anyway, moving past chocolate silk pie.

[Alan Sisto]

I'll take a good warm apple pie, though, with the crumbly bit on the top.

[Sara Brown]

Yes. Okay.

[Alan Sisto]

Not the crust, the crumbly.

[Sara Brown]

But moving past pie, please. Love is not pie.

[Alan Sisto]

No.

[Sara Brown]

You know, love is infinite. That means that you can give your love to a person and to a hobby.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. I love doing the podcast. I love reading Tolkien. I love learning and studying all this. But that doesn't change.

[Sara Brown]

It doesn't leave only 50% for your wife and kids.

[Alan Sisto]

No. It may change the amount of time I get to spend with them sometimes.

[Sara Brown]

But it doesn't change the amount of love you have for them.

[Alan Sisto]

Of course not. Absolutely. I feel like this, in a way, sort of boils down to that balance. We've talked about this before with balance with these two because they really seem to lack it. The balance between the freedom to pursue your own interests. Right. The sea.

[Sara Brown]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Tolkien, whatever it may be. B. The obligation that one has to a partner. Not just the love, but the obligation that you have in a relationship, but the way that seen from the viewpoint of the partner, not the person engaging in the passion. Right. Not the. In this case from Orendus and how their own pressure can. Oh, now I'm going to make you feel obligated. This whole. I'm making a thing not. It does stink.

[Sara Brown]

That's not.

[Alan Sisto]

It's. It's turning a relationship into a transactional series of events.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. I'm seeing red flags again all over it.

[Alan Sisto]

Tar red flag.

[Sara Brown]

Tar red flag.

[Alan Sisto]

I still. I still wonder is he going to turn into tar restraining order or not? I really. I like that. That was fun.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. See, the thing is they're both as bad as each other in many ways.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[Sara Brown]

Because we did say we were going to talk about eventually how Arendis is, you know, in many ways just as bad as Aeldarion. But here they're both as bad as each other because neither Understands the other and their passions. Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Neither is really trying to.

[Sara Brown]

No, they really aren't trying. Irendys has no understanding of Aldarion's love of the sea to the extent that she hates the fact that he has a love of the sea and would prevent it if she could. Aldarion has zero understanding of Irendys love for the land and the trees.

[Alan Sisto]

Right. Just name a tree. Just name a tree to the extent.

[Sara Brown]

Where he just offers her one tree. I mean, what a doofus.

[Alan Sisto]

You really don't get it, sir, do you?

[Sara Brown]

He really does not get it.

[Alan Sisto]

And maybe that, you know, you were talking about how much she goes from not only failing to understand his love for the sea to actively hating his love for the sea and therefore actively hating the sea. Maybe that's the step that if she carries that out, would quote unquote, make him into a thing. Not lovable. Right. Because it's going to just, you know, completely suppress or oppress that, that interest. But, but that's, that's a mutual thing. Yeah, I mean that's, that's the thing is those both ways. And I feel like, yes, that's where Newness really fails to see that she doesn't. She's basically saying, oh, you know, let him have this. But she's not saying, and he also should do the same for you.

[Sara Brown]

That's it. It's all very, very one sided, isn't it? That hirendis must be the one to bend or break.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, and that's a, that's a great choice of words because as we'll see later, she gives ankalame very, very similar instructions about not bending because if you do, they'll take it all. And. Well, she's not wrong. But because of the way this relationship is structured and the, the fact that she sees herself as being the only one who must make these sacrifices and she doesn't want to. So.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. But if we take a step back and remember who wrote this because this, you know, Arendus and Eldarion are not real people.

[Alan Sisto]

No, they are not. That is true.

[Sara Brown]

We have a Tolkien who has written this.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes.

[Sara Brown]

And I have questions like to what extent is this something that he thought or is this something he simply put in here? Because it's a way of getting the story to the point where it needs to go.

[Alan Sisto]

I actually, as much as I will not actively try to defend Tolkien the way he has Nuneth phrasing this advice makes me think he disapproves of it. She comes off as not somebody giving.

[Sara Brown]

Good Advice and perhaps someone with an agenda behind.

[Alan Sisto]

Definitely somebody with an agenda. And I think that's the thing. So I think we're supposed to see this as yet another reason why this relationship is failing or. And will fail. You know, with Eldarion, we see a lot of his life. We don't get to see Erendis being raised by her parents the way we see Eldarion raised by his parents. Right. We get a lot of interaction between Almari and Eldarion, between Meneldur and Anarion. We only get a few moments with Nunef, and we get none with her father. So I think what we're trying to. Perhaps what Tolkien's trying to do here is say, here is a reason why Irendis had this viewpoint. She grew up in this environment where she was being told, she is the one who has to change. She is the one who has to capitulate. She is the one who has to sacrifice. And because the idea of balance and equity are not remotely in the discussion, she is all or nothing. She can't see a middle spot.

[Sara Brown]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Which is exactly her failing with Uncontammy.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, goodness, yes. The damage that they do.

[Alan Sisto]

I kind of feel like this is just a generational thing, you know, and we've talked before about the generational damage that. That they caused on Colombia, but I'm looking here, and I'm seeing some generational damage being done by Nuneth.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, absolutely.

[Alan Sisto]

Very much.

[Sara Brown]

There's a very interesting paper to be written on the effects of the two mothers on this relationship.

[Tom]

Ooh.

[Sara Brown]

And no, I am not volunteering to write it. Okay.

[Alan Sisto]

I was gonna say you're. You're welcome, too. We'd love to have you at the next ppp, whatever that may be.

[Sara Brown]

Having doled out this very questionable advice. Horrendous mom doesn't even give her daughter a chance to argue or respond to the advice. She just says that she'll never understand. She says, I doubt you will ever understand. I mean, goodness, is that.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, that's just. You'll never get it. I don't know why I try. I don't know even why I give you advice. You never listen.

[Sara Brown]

Screaming in the background.

[Alan Sisto]

Seriously. But that is the moment when we get that motivation right? That's when we see her real ulterior motive poking through beneath her words. A desire not only for grandchildren, but beautiful grandchildren and more importantly, royal grandchildren.

[Sara Brown]

And I think that's where we get to the heart of it.

[Alan Sisto]

Ding, ding, ding.

[Sara Brown]

Yes, there's definitely an agenda behind some of the things that she's saying. And that's. I mean, think about this for generational damage. Here we have a mother who, instead of giving genuine advice to her daughter that will protect her daughter's peace, that will actually look after her daughter, she's focused on the end game, which is royal grandchildren. Right now. Is it any wonder that Arrendus, having grown up with a mother who would do something like that, is herself not the best mother?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, 100%. I mean, this is watching newness. Give this advice and then let this sort of, like you said, end game slip out. You don't even have grandkids yet. Why are you worried about them being royal or not? Worry about your daughter's well being.

[Tom]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Worried about her happiness, but no, she's worried about standing status. Just mind blowing.

[Sara Brown]

There's not a whole lot of love being shown here.

[Alan Sisto]

No, there really isn't.

[Sara Brown]

Care, sensitivity, not at all Concern.

[Alan Sisto]

All she's got to say is you need to share Eldarion's love for you with his love for the sea. That's the only mention of love. You have an obligation to subjugate yourself.

[Sara Brown]

Yikes.

[Alan Sisto]

To lower yourself and allow yourself to receive less. Oh. And the reason that you need to do that is because I want royal grandbabies.

[Sara Brown]

Put those two mothers side by side then. Right, we have Eldarion's mother, who in some ways loves him too much, indulges him too much and makes him feel like really he should have whatever he wants. Erendis mother, who, whether she loves her or not, and this isn't clear, does not show it.

[Alan Sisto]

No.

[Sara Brown]

Does not demonstrate any of that. And you know, we're going all the way back now to Turin's mother.

[Alan Sisto]

I was going to say we've mentioned Morwen before.

[Sara Brown]

Yes, exactly. So we put these mothers side by side. We have one who doesn't show any love, one who indulges her son too much.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

And what do we get? These two who really should never have been anywhere near each other as a result. They're both damaged, you know.

[Alan Sisto]

They are. They really are. Like we talked about. I know. We were joking about, you know, Aldari needs to go and get therapy. He does, but he really does need.

[Sara Brown]

To go and get therapy.

[Alan Sisto]

So does she. Yeah. I mean, yes, she does. These are people that, if we're talking to real life people that are in a relationship like this, it's like you need to fix yourself first. You need to get to know yourself, identify what's going on. You know what it is you want, what it is you fear.

[Sara Brown]

Yep. And until you've done that, you're not.

[Alan Sisto]

Having any relationship you're not going to have. And. And we're going to see that sadly bear fruit. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Yikes. Well, while this advice didn't change horrendous his mind, but. And I'm not sure any advice would change either Arenda's or Eldarion's mind.

[Alan Sisto]

They are both stubborn, aren't they?

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, they really are. She's. She's not happy.

[Alan Sisto]

No.

[Sara Brown]

In fact, she discovers the truth of what her mum says when she told her, you will not cast out your love from your heart so easily. That's true. It's still very much there.

[Alan Sisto]

Of course it is. I mean, think especially about the amount of time that she spent her essentially her entire adult life in love with this man. I'll tell you what though, this mention about her days being even emptier than when he was at sea, that hits because he is in numenor. So this is active rejection on his part. They're being separated is a matter of will rather than a matter of circumstance. And that's got to hurt. But it does seem like it's more his choice. I mean, sure, she could theoretically go to Armenelas, but the phrase is he did not come again into the west, which suggests pretty strongly that he has no interest at this point.

[Sara Brown]

But I mean, this is not the first time he's done that.

[Alan Sisto]

No, no.

[Sara Brown]

Right. Just hasn't come to see her.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. We'll figure out later because they were never very clear on the timeline about when he gets back from that 14 year journey and when he starts to woo her in earnest. We have to do the math and we'll do it later in this episode. But it turns out there's a gap of at least three years before he even bothered to go look for her. And that's already in the past. So she's thinking, great, I'm going to endure another years waiting for him to just decide whether he wants to spend time with me or not.

[Sara Brown]

That's crazy woman walk away.

[Alan Sisto]

I know. Not as easy as. As it ought to be. Right. She's finding that her days are empty.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, that's true. And then these two dodgy mothers, they. They actually get together here because Al Maryan gets word from Nuneth. Mother in law's conspiring is scary.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, a little bit.

[Sara Brown]

And she decides to jump into action because she knows that if she doesn't, Aldaria might head right back out to sea yet again. Because it's been at least seven years at this point. And that's assuming that we're still in second age. 850. The year she took the journey from Romenna to Andunier. We think it's still that year.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, it could be that year. So it's at least seven years. I think the timeline is suggesting to us that it's later than that because we're going to see them betrothed in the very next section. And that tells me we're much more likely to be in SA 858 which is in fact the year of their betrothal. If that's the case. He's been on land for 15 years and that is a new personal record since puberty. Wow. You know, because he's, he's never been on land for. For that amount of time since he left as a 25 year old to go on that journey with his grandpa.

[Sara Brown]

It does then also intimate that there's eight years in between them breaking up and getting betrothed. Yeah, they really weren't in any rush. Anyway, the queen invites Arendes to come back. Now remember, she was a part of the Queen's household, so there is a relationship here as well. Al Marion and Arendes have a connection distinct from the Aldarion Arendys connection.

[Alan Sisto]

That is fair. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

And we're told that she returns in part because of the invite, but in part because her mother suggests she goes and also in part because she wants to return.

[Alan Sisto]

And I think that's really the central one there. If she didn't want to, it wouldn't matter that both of these. It might matter a little that it's the Queen because you don't want to disobey the queen. But she could have dug in her heels, as she'll do later. We'll see much later, like after Ancalame is born, we'll see the King invite her to come back and she goes, well, you can have my daughter because I can't withhold her from you, but please excuse me, Lord. Right. So she, you know, certainly has the fortitude to say no, thank you, but it's that she wants to go. And that does lead to, for a time at least, a reconciliation between Eldarion and Arendus in time for them to climb the Meneltarma at the Erukirme. Now, the Erukierme Don and I talked about this festival and the other two festivals back in episode 345 early last season as we walked through a description of the island of Numenor. But it is worth recapping briefly.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. Plus we promised we would back when we saw The Eruhantal in Second Age 727, around the time Eldarion returned from his first journey, the one he took.

[Alan Sisto]

With vientor, his grandfather, 130 years ago. Hard to believe.

[Sara Brown]

Yikes.

[Alan Sisto]

There, when we read about the regions of Numenor, in a description of the island of Numenor, we read about the Mittelmar, that is the home to the tall mountain called Meneltarma, pillar of the heavens, sacred to the worship of ERU Iluvatar.

[Sara Brown]

And that continues. Though the lower slopes of the mountain were gentle and grass covered, it grew ever steeper, and towards the summit it could not be scaled. But a winding spiral road was made upon it, beginning at its foot upon the south and ending below the lip of the summit upon the north. For the summit was somewhat flattened and depressed and could contain a great multitude, but it remained untouched by hands throughout the history of Numenor. No building, no raised altar, not even a pile of undressed stones ever stood there. And no other likeness of a temple did the Numenoreans possess in all the days of their grace, until the coming of Sauron.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, wow, that's foreboding. Until the coming of Sauron, yeah. So finally we read about the festivals themselves in that passage there, talking about the peak of the Meneltarma, no tool or weapon had ever been born, and there none might speak any word save the king. Only thrice, only in each year the king spoke, offering prayer for the coming year at Eruquierme in the first days of spring, praise of ERU Iluvatar at the Erulitele in midsummer, and thanksgiving to him at the Eruhantele at the end of autumn. At these times the king ascended the mountain on foot, followed by a great concourse of the people, clad in white and garlanded, but silent, which is what we see them doing. They're ascending the mental tarma in the King's retinue. Now, we talked about the festivals real briefly in last week's Philology Fair, but properly so, about the language, not about the festivals themselves. But the reason we put them in that Philology Fair is we thought we'd get to this point last week. So, quick reminder. The Edu Querme is the prayer seeking a blessing for the year ahead. That's in the spring, because their year begins in spring. As we talked about last season when we covered the appendices, including the one on the calendars. And then there was the the praise of him in summer. And the Eruhantal is essentially Thanksgiving in the fall, the harvest festival.

[Sara Brown]

Right. So Aldalion and Arendus presence together in the King's retinue on this high holiday ascending the Meneltarma. This is significant and it's symbolic.

[Alan Sisto]

This is as public a confirmation that, yes, they are still an item, they are not yet betrothed. Everybody's wondering if they're ever going to get betrothed, but their separation is no longer a thing. People are now seeing that they are united. They're in the King's company. So the King and Queen are going to be there. You can imagine that Arrindus's parents will be there as well. So, you know, this is pretty significant.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, it's as close to a declaration as you're going to get without the actual rock on the finger. I mean, Eldarion might be able to get away with that diamond of ya for that's not an engagement present. But when you walk together up the Menelama in the King's retinue there, it would be so difficult for him to back out.

[Alan Sisto]

It would be, yeah. At this point it's. It's a done deal, so to speak.

[Sara Brown]

Pretty much, yeah. When did making plans get this complicated? It's time to streamline with WhatsApp, the secure messaging app that brings the whole group together. Use polls to settle dinner plans, send event invites and pin messages so no one forgets mom 60th and never miss a meme or milestone. All protected with end to end encryption. It's time for WhatsApp message privately with everyone. Learn [e-mail] this episode is brought to you by State Farm. Listening to this podcast. Smart move. Being financially savvy. Smart move. Another smart move. Having State Farm help you create a competitive price when you choose to bundle home and auto bundling. Just another way to save with a personal price plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state.

[Alan Sisto]

Soon we'll get to a moment that I think Arendus might want back. But before we do, I want to take a minute to thank the amazing community that's grown up around this show. I definitely don't want to take that back. After all, there is a lot more talk going on at the Prancing Pony podcast than just us.

[Sara Brown]

Yep, because the PPP really does have a warm and welcoming listener community. If you've got questions or you just want to talk about how much you love Middle Earth? Be sure to check out our Common room on Facebook and across all social media. On Facebook, just look for the Prancing Pony podcast and yes as a page, but you're going to want to join the group for that great fan community you definitely.

[Alan Sisto]

Well and on every social media platform other than Facebook. We're just at Prancing Pony Pod. You can find our subreddit at R Prancing Pony Pod. And be sure to check out my Daily show, today's Tolkien Times on YouTube and all your favorite podcast apps. Get your daily Middle Earth fix with everything from Middle Earth map Mondays to first stage Fridays. Be sure to watch or listen at YouTube.com rancingponypod all right, Sara, you want to go ahead and pick up with their conversation on the way back down the Meneltarma?

[Sara Brown]

I will do do you not love the Yozayan? She said. I love it indeed, he answered, though I think that you doubt it, for I think also of what it may be in time to come, and the hope and splendour of its people, and I believe that a gift should not lie idle in hoard. But Arendus denied his words, saying, such gifts as come from the Valar, and through them from the One are to be loved for themselves, now and in all nows. They're not given for barter, for more or for better. The Edain remain mortal men, Aldarion, great though they be, and we cannot dwell in the time that is to come, lest we lose our now for a phantom of our own design. Then, taking suddenly the jewel from her throat, she asked him, would you have me trade this to buy me other goods that I desire? No, said he, but you do not lock it in hoard yet I think you set it too high, for it is dimmed by the light of your eyes. Then he kissed her on the eyes, and in that moment she put aside fear and accepted him, and their troth was plighted upon the steep path of the Meneltama. They went back then to Armenelos, and Ardarion, presented Arendys to Tarmen Eldur as the betrothed of the king's heir. And the king was rejoiced, and there was merrymaking in the city and in.

[Alan Sisto]

All the isle, and there was much rejoicing. Yea, yeah. Oh man. Well, let's, let's go back. We did actually skip a tiny bit at the beginning, and it's where after ascending the Middle Tarma, they eventually descended it right what goes up must come down, as they say.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. But they lingered at the top, enjoying what must have been an absolutely gorgeous view. Right?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

From the glimmer of light in the west to the shadows in the east with this stunning blue sky above them. Must have been incredible.

[Alan Sisto]

But it was very quiet, Right? They enjoy this view in silence. Just like we talked about the none might speak any words, save the King. Only. It was only at those festivals, in.

[Sara Brown]

Fact, we also read there that, quote, the silence was so great that even a stranger, ignorant of Numenor and all its history, if he were transported thither, would not have dared to speak aloud.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, really? That sounds like a challenge to me. The PPP coming to you live from the top of Meneltarma.

[Sara Brown]

Ow. Get.

[Alan Sisto]

What's that? Eagle. Get away.

[Sara Brown]

Stop it.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay, bad idea.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, probably a bad idea.

[Alan Sisto]

Sorry, Manwe.

[Sara Brown]

Don't you think it might have been a great idea if Aeldarion and Orendis had just stayed in silence for the rest of time?

[Alan Sisto]

I know. This is where they need to build their house.

[Sara Brown]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Then he can only speak three times a year.

[Sara Brown]

Do you know what? I think that might have been helpful anyway. Because, I mean, the conversation that now comes is not that helpful either way.

[Alan Sisto]

No, it isn't. I mean, but it's a great conversation. But it's not helpful to their relationship yet.

[Sara Brown]

No. So, anyway, they descended the mountain, and it's on the way down that the conversation at the beginning of this reading took place.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, but before we get to that, and I promise we will, I want to get back to another line that we skipped. Where far away was Avalone? And the footnote there points us to this passage in the. At times when all the air was clear and the sun was in the east, they would look out and descry. Far off in the west, a city white shining on a distant shore and a great harbor and a tower. For in those days, the Numenoreans were far sighted. Yet even so, it was only the keenest eyes among them that could see this vision. From the Meneltarma, maybe. Or from some tall ship that lay off their western coast.

[Sara Brown]

And of course, that tall ship would only lay a little bit off their western coast.

[Tom]

Right?

[Alan Sisto]

Correct.

[Sara Brown]

Because, quote, the Lords of Valinor forbade them to sail so far westward that the coast of Numenor could no longer be seen.

[Alan Sisto]

Correct. The coasts, not the metal Tarma. They don't get to sail so far as long as they can still see the peak. It's the coastlines.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, right. Okay, so back to the text and specifically to the part I read, starting with Irendis, asking a question, do you not love the. Your Zion?

[Alan Sisto]

It's the first time we've seen that word, and it's pretty clear from the context what the subject of the question is. Right. But I want to do a little bit of word nerdery on it. It is the direct Adonaic translation of Quenya andor, which means land of gift. An meaning gift, like anatar door, of course, like Gondor, Mordor, etc. So land of gift. We're told in Sauron Defeated, that the final element in this Adonaic name, Zion, means land. And that leads to the conclusion that the yo element probably means gift. Yo, Zion. Yo Zion. Gift, land. All right.

[Sara Brown]

See, I'm down with the youth. I can speak teen.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, my goodness. Trying not to crib.

[Sara Brown]

Grins audibly yeah, that's fair. Anyway, so she's asking him if he loves the land of Gift andor Numenor. This is an important question to her.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, it is.

[Sara Brown]

When asked to preserve a single tree, she said she loves all the trees that grow in this isle. And while we've often pointed out Haldarion's cluelessness because it's right out there to notice, he at least knows how he's perceived by Orendus. While he answers in the affirmative, it's followed by, I don't think you believe me. He's not wrong.

[Alan Sisto]

He's not wrong. His explanation of how or why their mutual love for Numenor differs is based on his claim that he's considering the future and quote, the hope and splendor of its people. But I cannot help thinking that what he really means is the expanding power of the nation state of Numenor.

[Sara Brown]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, you know, you think about his. His actions in Middle Earth expansions near Vignolande, the deforestation that's taking place, or that's going to be taking place. And that's the thing. So much of this, the timeline is just not explicit. And I don't know, I just. There's. There's a part of me that thinks what he imagines, the hope and splendor of the people is a mighty empire, as opposed to a peaceful place where we can all live and enjoy what. What we've been given.

[Sara Brown]

Well, that's it. Because when he sees trees, what he's not seeing is the beauty of the forest or anything like that. What he's seeing is resources.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sara Brown]

That can be used for the greater good. Right, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And we will see that more explicitly later on.

[Sara Brown]

Yes, yes, absolutely. And in a point that Arendus will turn on his head a bit, Eldarion believes that a gift, in this case the land of gift, Numenor, quote, should not lie idle in hoard.

[Alan Sisto]

I've gotta ask, and I wish Erendis had asked, what the heck does he mean? How does a land lie idle in hoard?

[Sara Brown]

That we're just sort of keeping it and we're not doing anything with it. In other words, you're just, you know, being like a dragon lying on its treasure, just sort of keeping it pretty, but it's all for you, and you're not doing anything with it. He doesn't. It's because he sees resources. He doesn't see the land as being a gift in and of itself.

[Alan Sisto]

Right. It's as though he's thinking, all right, we've been given this base from which to expand. Right. He's not thinking of this as their home. He's thinking of this as just a place that we can grow from.

[Sara Brown]

It's the potential. Yeah, Right. It's offering potential for more. And why should we be satisfied with what we have when we could have so much more? This is why this story is the beginning of the end.

[Alan Sisto]

It really is. And it's one of the reasons why, I think, she points that out. Like, we don't barter for better or for more, but we'll get to that. Sorry, Yeah, I. I do love her response here because it's frankly another brilliant example of. And this is how we step back from the story and Eldari and Hirendus's people, and step back into Tolkien, because Tolkien himself, the way he crafts these debates, baits throughout the legendarium, they're just fantastic. I think of the Athrabeth, which is just glorious and back and forth, and sometimes you're like, yeah, she's got a point, and, oh, no, no, no, he's right. Or the other way around. The Valar, the way they debate in the Statute of Finway and Miriel, it's just amazing stuff. We'll see it again later when Eldarion and his father go at it. Tolkien's so good at building dialogue that responds to itself in the thread between the participants. It's just. I can't think of very many authors I've read who are better at that particular skill, writing an argument that sounds legitimately like a debate where both sides make very good points. But there's clearly a right decision to be had here. It's just fascinating.

[Sara Brown]

It is fascinating. And in fact, with some of the debates, what's really interesting about them is that it isn't always so clear cut.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, you just mentioned Finway and Mary. Oh, yeah. The afterbut too.

[Sara Brown]

Right. And. And you can see both sides making really good points and both sides failing to fully understand the other side.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sara Brown]

But it's left kind of open at the end.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, it is.

[Sara Brown]

Okay. Which side do you fall on? Do you fall on Finrod side? Do you agree with what he's saying? I mean, the. The point is that sometimes it's not as cut and dried as that.

[Alan Sisto]

In fact, it's probably more often than not left ambiguous.

[Sara Brown]

Yes. Not here. You're right, because what Arendus has to say here is actually you can almost hear Tolkien's voice coming through.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes. There are a lot in this moment. I think there's more of Tolkien coming through than in others. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

And here she also speaks directly to what Eldarion has said about gifts, that they should not lie idle. This gift is different, she argues, because of its giver. Eru, through the Valar, has given this land to us. It makes it so much more.

[Alan Sisto]

It makes it different, too. More and different. And because of that, she's arguing it should be loved as it is now and at all times as it is in those times. The way he phrases it, though, is just chef's kiss. And in all nows.

[Sara Brown]

Yes. I love the way he put that.

[Alan Sisto]

So good.

[Sara Brown]

Now and in all nows.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh.

[Sara Brown]

Which is just such a more beautiful way of saying now and for all time kind of thing.

[Alan Sisto]

Because it's not just now and in the future, it's in that present and that present and that present. Because all of those moments will be present moments for those people. And that's what she's trying to say here.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. Oh, it's perfect. It's just so perfectly phrased.

[Alan Sisto]

It really is.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. Gorgeous. Gorgeous language. And look at what she says. It isn't. It's not a thing. Tabata to get more or to get better.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[Sara Brown]

And that's really important because it's already. It has its own value.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. In and of itself. If it never. If they never expanded the kingdom of Numenor, it is still a gift.

[Sara Brown]

Yes. And a very precious one at that.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

And she doesn't just speak to the gift in relation to who the giver is. She then speaks to who the recipient of the gift is and why that matters. Mortal men.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes.

[Sara Brown]

And I think a particularly important point for her, because she's just that little bit more mortal than he is.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a very good point. I mean, he's, you know, the. The least mortal of all the. The Numenoreans, because he's of the line of Elros, and she is perhaps the most mortal, except for maybe the handful of Druidyne.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, Yep.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, good point.

[Sara Brown]

I mean, she does point out, despite our greatness, despite our longer lifespans, we Numenoreans are still mortal.

[Alan Sisto]

And that's a big, big point. Because, you know, elves. Elves are different. Their sort of sense of present and past and future is experientially different from what mortal men would have. And her point is, we cannot live in our future. We only live in our present. Even when our present is our present, five years from now, 20 years from now, it will still be our present. It's not our future. And when we try to. And we try to, instead of living in our moment and we're living in the future, we're losing our present moment. And another beautiful turn of phrase for a phantom of our own design. It feels like this is boiling down to sort of like be present in the moment. The future isn't assured. And more importantly than that, the future, the nature of the future can't be assured. You know, it's going to be what it is, and you need to be enjoying that moment when it comes. But that means you got to focus on this moment now. But I want to ask you this question in the context of their relationship. Like, he's going to be gone a lot, arguably very much losing his now for this phantom, which for him is the expansion and growth of Numenor, but also impacting her future, her nows. So let's toss that around a little bit.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. This is her speaking on multiple layers, isn't it, that she is talking about the Land of Gift, and the Land of Gift is the macro.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

But she's also talking about them and their nows. She wants him to live in the now.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

And living in the now with her means being there with her present and participating in their lives together. And we know that he's not going to do that.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Well, this goes right back to the last conversation they had in the previous episode, where. Well, then, where is the king's heir gonna live? Yeah, right. She's wanting to know, what are my nows gonna look like with you?

[Sara Brown]

I think that's a fair question, given.

[Alan Sisto]

The past, for a phantom of his own design. And again, that he throws in these gems. Tolkien does of just, you know, little twists of prose that are genius. And a phantom of our own design is one of them. And it harkens back a little bit to last episode when he was content but didn't know it until towards the end of his life. Again, it's because he's not living in that moment. He's losing his now.

[Sara Brown]

He's always looking ahead. What's the next thing? What's the next thing? How can I take this but move it forward? And I think this is actually a really important message for everybody. It is that if you don't notice what's going on around you right now, if you're not living in the present, then you're not truly living at all. You can't connect. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

You're losing out big time. Because you can never, like she says, live in your future. You can only live in your presence. Even your future presence are still going to be present when you get to them. But if you're always so future focused, you're never going to enjoy that present, no matter when it comes.

[Sara Brown]

But think about how this really speaks to the end of Numenor as well, right?

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, it sure does. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

When we get to the end days of Numenor, the Numenoreans, apart from the faithful, obviously the Numenoreans had failed to live in their now.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Because they're too worried about the future.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

So they don't actually stop and smell the roses in the now at all. Because they, you know, they're too busy projecting ahead and wanting more days and more days and more days. You know, a future that is, in fact, very much a phantom of their own design.

[Alan Sisto]

Boy, isn't it?

[Sara Brown]

And they fail to live in there now. And so how can you possibly be content? And Farazan is anything but content in all his days. It's always the next thing. The more.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah. Whether it's more wealth, more. More power, longer life. You're going to take it from the Valar. You know, good kings take what is their due.

[Sara Brown]

You know, these words are horrendous. Resonate down the centuries.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, now they sure do.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. Now, I imagine while all this is going on, she's looking at his face, which probably appears a bit confused or befuddled. He is a little clueless. Let's face that she does what she kind of needs to do. She moves to a practical example to help him understand what she's saying. Would you want me to take this very big diamond you gave me and trade it for other things? I Want. And that gets an immediate response of, oh, no, no.

[Alan Sisto]

It's almost like that we'll name a tree, you know.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, I know.

[Alan Sisto]

Just a quick, so clueless, unthinking response. But of course it's the right answer. No, I don't want you to do that.

[Sara Brown]

No. But he does make a distinction, because he says she doesn't keep it in a vault somewhere. She wears it, shows it, enjoys it.

[Alan Sisto]

Right. She's not hoarding it.

[Sara Brown]

But I'm not sure he's. I think he's missing his own point here.

[Alan Sisto]

I think he is. I think he's actually, by saying that, he's arguably supporting her point more than his, because that's her point. We should enjoy the gift.

[Sara Brown]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

The gift that it is, and not the gift for what it could be. And yet he's saying that's exactly what she's doing. This supports her point 100%.

[Sara Brown]

And that's because he's conflated enjoying the now, enjoying the gift with locking the gift away and not looking at it or touching it or doing anything with it at all. And that is not true of the land. No land must be cared for.

[Alan Sisto]

Right, Right. It's an active participant in the story.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. You have active presence within it. To enjoy the now, to enjoy the gift that this land is, you have to be a steward of that land. You have to be active with it. Right?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah. Practicing responsible forestry, for instance. Master of the forest.

[Sara Brown]

Yes. He's missed his own point entirely. It's got nothing to do with locking away the jewel, because she's not doing that. And she's also not locking away and putting out of use the land that is that gift. Right.

[Alan Sisto]

This isn't Feanor putting the Silmarils in the vault at his father's place.

[Sara Brown]

No, it's totally different.

[Alan Sisto]

And refusing their sight to the people in Valinor. So his response is brief. And then we get this smoothly delivered line.

[Sara Brown]

Yikes.

[Alan Sisto]

I eye rolled when you read it, by the way.

[Sara Brown]

I didn't fall for this.

[Alan Sisto]

I'll tell you, it ends the debate a bit prematurely, if you ask me. Like, I really wanted them to explore this more. And I feel like he sort of took advantage of how much he knows she, you know, loves him and wants this to happen. I don't think he's manipulating her here. I think he just doesn't have a response. And so he decides, oh, he wants.

[Sara Brown]

To stop the argument. He's got nothing else to say. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

So, you know, he compliments her, says something beautiful. About her eyes. Gives her a. Gives her a kiss and she is done for.

[Sara Brown]

She's just called love bombing.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. But there is a detail that's important though, isn't there?

[Sara Brown]

Yes. Yeah. She put aside fear. That's really important. Is this her taking her own advice of living in this present moment and not worrying about the future as much?

[Alan Sisto]

That is almost what I came to like. I almost thought, okay, this is her living in her now. Because, you know, if she's trying to figure out the phantom of her own design. Right. What is our future gonna look for? Trying to balance that responsibility for her future nows with the desire to live in this very, very present now. She's been waiting for this to work out for a very, very long time.

[Sara Brown]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

I want to come back to this for sure later on, because there's a conversation that Menelduur will have with Eldarion at the end of this episode that really brings this to the fore. But let's go ahead and move on. Now that their troth is plighted, they head down the mountain. Just a quick note, though. We now know for sure it is the spring of 858, because that is when they became betrothed. So that makes Arrendus 87 years old. They met 58 years ago when Eldarion was proclaimed the king's heir. And she was a young woman of 29.

[Sara Brown]

Yep. And he brought that diamond back in 820, which is some 38 years ago when she was 39.

[Alan Sisto]

My goodness.

[Sara Brown]

I know. And of course, he's been gone for half of that 38 years. But he's also been wooing her earnestly for somewhere between 10 and 15 years, based on the timeline of his journey.

[Alan Sisto]

So, yeah, I mean, that's one of these things where, once again, as you look further forward, you start to get the specifics. It turns out it's been close to 12 years that he's been wooing her. So they're engaged, they head into town, they share the news. The king was rejoiced. Right? Not written here. The king said, it's about damn time, son.

[Sara Brown]

But I have a feeling he was probably thinking that anyway.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[Sara Brown]

And so the the city of Armenelos and the entire kingdom of Numenor, they celebrate. I mean, remember, he had been incredib popular as the captain of the Guild Adventurers. Although we'll shortly see that he's not super popular with the guild themselves anymore.

[Alan Sisto]

That's correct. In fact, we're going to get to that in the Next reading. I'll pick up where you left off. As betrothal gift, Meneldur gave to Arendus a fair portion of land in Emeria, and there he had built for her a white house. But Aldarion said to her, other jewels, I have in hoard gifts of kings in far lands, to whom the ships of Numenor have brought aid. I have gems as green as the light of the sun in the leaves of trees, which you love. No, said Arendus, I have had my betrothal gift, though it came beforehand. It is the only jewel that I have, or would have, and I will set it yet higher. Then he saw that she had caused the white gem to be set as a star in a silver fillet, and at her asking he bound it on her forehead. She wore it so for many years until sorrow befell. And thus she was known far and wide as Tar Elastirne, the Lady of the Star Brow. Thus there was for a time peace and joy in Armenolaus, in the house of the king, and in all the isle. And it is recorded in ancient books that there was great fruitfulness in the golden summer of that year, which was the 858th of the second Age. But alone among the people, the mariners of the Guild of Venturers were not well content. For 15 years Aldarion had remained in Numenor and led no expedition abroad. And though there were gallant captains who had been trained by him without the wealth and authority of the king's son, their voyages were fewer and more brief, and went but seldom further than the land of Gil Galad. Moreover, timber was becoming scarce in the shipyards, for Aldarian neglected the forests, and the Venturers besought him to turn again to this work at their prayer. Eldarion did so, and at first Arundis would go about with him in the woods. But she was saddened by the sight of trees felled in their prime and afterwards hewn and sawn. Soon, therefore, Aldarian went alone, and they were less in company.

[Sara Brown]

That does not bode well.

[Alan Sisto]

No, it does not. And it hits hard all of a sudden. I put in mind I. I didn't even put this in the notes. That's why I'm mentioning it now. It makes me go back to that conversation she had with her mom. She's trying, isn't she? She's trying to share her husband's love, or in this case, betrothed's love, of what he's doing. Trying to share his job and go with him.

[Sara Brown]

But it's too much for nothing back.

[Alan Sisto]

No. Nothing.

[Sara Brown]

Nope. No. Unlike from the putative father in law, because Minelda is a generous king.

[Alan Sisto]

He sure is.

[Sara Brown]

Giving a large piece of land in the region of her home, Emeria, and having a house built there for her. Pretty kind of him.

[Alan Sisto]

Pretty impressive. I'm just going to give you, you know, huge tracts of land and a house. Very impressive.

[Sara Brown]

A nice white house.

[Alan Sisto]

I know. Not capitalized, by the way.

[Sara Brown]

Not capitalized. No, no. I mean, this is one of those gifts that will have, you know, two edges to that sword, of course.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yes, it will. No doubt about it. What's interesting is Mineldur does this fantastic thing, gives her land, has a house built for her. Aldarion, on the other hand, doesn't have a gift ready for her, which is odd, given how long he's been seeking her agreement to become betrothed. You've been chasing her for 15 years and you don't have a ring in your pocket. Instead, he says, hey, I've got a lot of jewels, including some that Gil Galad gave me because we came to their rescue. Some of them are green, like trees. You like trees, right?

[Sara Brown]

Goodness sake.

[Alan Sisto]

Like, dude, why didn't you have a gift ready to go, man?

[Sara Brown]

Well, I mean, this is not going to go down well, is it?

[Alan Sisto]

No.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, okay. Yeah. Well, I've got a whole load of jewels over here. I mean, you're supposed to give something special, you know, a thing that you have picked out. Not. Oh, well, I've got this hoard over here. You can have a rifle through, see if there's something in there you like. You like green, right? Good Lord. Could you be more disinterested?

[Alan Sisto]

This is dense. This is just really, really dense.

[Sara Brown]

On Eldarion's dense, but it's also disinterested.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah, you're right. It is.

[Sara Brown]

It's not thoughtful. There's no sensitivity here. It's almost like, okay, I've got a now checklist.

[Alan Sisto]

Tick next.

[Sara Brown]

We're betrothed. Dad's very happy about this. Awesome. All right, moving on.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, moving on, though, as we'll see, it takes him many, many years to move on to go to the next step.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, boy. Yeah. Well, it does turn out that it's okay at this point anyway, that he didn't have a fancy jewel all picked out. Horrendous is very happy with the diamond he brought back. And I'm just going to keep saying this 38 years ago, that's a whole load of Christmas presents that he hasn't brought.

[Alan Sisto]

That is A whole load. That gift wasn't a betrothal gift. Right. That's 38 years ago. Well, now it is. It just came beforehand. Just as Meneldor said, by the way. Right. That that was not an appropriate gift unless it was your intention to become betrothed.

[Sara Brown]

So, yeah, it's kind of nice of her to rewrite history like that, I think.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that's a really kind retcon on her part.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. She wouldn't have accepted another jewel, she says, but now she'll set this one higher, moving it from a necklace to a fillet to wear on her head. And that makes me think she must have noticed the Elendilmir worn by Valandil at that feast eight years ago in Anduniee.

[Alan Sisto]

Totally makes sense. I mean, first of all, think back. The Elendilmir is described as a white star of Elvish crystal upon a fillet of Mithril. We know that it descended from Silmarion when she could not be made queen to her son Valandil, who was the first Lord of Andunie. So there's Valandil, you know, at the party, maybe putting his foot in his mouth, but trying. Now, we honestly don't know when Silmarion died. She could theoretically have been alive. She was born in SA521. That feast was in 850. That would make her 329. But she was of the line of Elros, so. Very possible. But I also imagine that if she were at the feast, we probably would have heard about her presence. Yeah, she might have been mentioned. She's very important figure.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. But maybe she just doesn't like parties, and I think that's fair. By the time you get to 329, you get to say you don't want to go to the party.

[Alan Sisto]

That's absolutely right. You've earned the rights. You definitely earned the right. Oh, man.

[Sara Brown]

Getting a bit old for wheelbarrows at dawn, aren't you, at that point?

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, you are. So Vallandil probably wearing the Elendilmir at that point.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, probably, yes. So this thing Erendis does, putting Eldarion's gift into a silver fillet on her head does feel like an echo of the Elendilmir, even though it's a weaker one. It's diamond instead of Elvish crystal and it's silver instead of Mithril, but still, it has a significance.

[Alan Sisto]

It does have significance. And in fact, in the Disaster of the Gladden Fields, when Isildur is wearing the Elendilmir, Christopher Tolkien points to this exact moment in a footnote, but we'll get to that in a second, actually.

[Sara Brown]

Okay, Now, Irendis wears this beautiful diamond in a silver band on her head for years. And it becomes, in a way, part of her identity because she's given the name Tar Elastirne, the Lady of the Star Brow. And the footnote to this passage, provided by Professor Tolkien, not Christopher this time, says, thus came, it is said, the manner of the kings and queens afterward to wear as a star a white jewel upon the brow, and they had no crown.

[Alan Sisto]

And that is where we bring in the other footnote, the one I mentioned earlier, from Disaster of the Gladden Fields. That's where Christopher says, this tradition, that is the tradition of the kings and queens of Numenor, to wear a star, to wear a white jewel upon the brow with no crown cannot be unconnected with that of the Elendilmir, a star like gem born on the brow as a token of royalty in Arnor. But the original Elendilmir itself, since it belonged to Silmarion, was in existence in Numenor, whatever its origin may have been, before Aldarion brought Erendis jewel from Middle Earth. And they cannot be the same. So just in case anybody was asking that, you know.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, no, that completely makes sense, because the description of the jewel and the description of the fillet that Horrendous has had made, it's totally different. The point is there that it is. It's beautiful, but it is not of this high above everything else quality of the Elendil mirror. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

That's pretty interesting, though, that she does this sort of echo of that, and I like it because it does establish a tradition.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, it. Yes. And it is a really nice echo of it. But also, think of it this way. All right. I'm just chucking this in here as a.

[Alan Sisto]

Sure, of course. That's why you're here. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

The Elendilmir is Elvish crystal and Mithril. Right. This is not that.

[Alan Sisto]

No, this is the Teemu Elendilmir.

[Sara Brown]

It is the Teemu Elendilmir. I love that. Okay, so the Elendilmir is passed down the line that eventually becomes the line of the faithful. Right. It is clearly the correct line. Hashtag, should have made shadow Queen. But we're going to move on from that. Okay, so what we're saying here is that the line that moves through Aldarion and Arendis and down, although it doesn't say it's the same star brow thing that they wear Right. It's never as good as the Elendilmir. And what does that tell us? Well, what is Tolkien telling us about the difference in the two lines?

[Alan Sisto]

The symbolism there is.

[Sara Brown]

Exactly. That's what I'm getting at. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, no doubt. I mean, hashtag Queen Samarian, you know, she ought to have been made Queen. You know, so many things. Oh, that's such an interesting. What if? I love that.

[Sara Brown]

Yep.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, goodness. Good stuff.

[Sara Brown]

So apart from all of that, this is a good time for everyone. Darion and Arendis, the king and queen, the city of Armenalos and the entire island. We get the mention of there being, quote, great fruitfulness in the Golden Summer that year, which of course echoes a bit of the fruitfulness of the Shire in 1421.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that's a proper 1421.

[Sara Brown]

That is proper 1421.

[Alan Sisto]

I love that.

[Sara Brown]

Cheers.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, good stuff. It's definitely like a little bit of the Valar smiling, you know, you get that feel like, okay, all right, things are going to go all right now. I mean, wilds.

[Sara Brown]

No, but it's interesting that Tolkien uses such similar imagery to show us that this is a golden time. This is a good time. Yes, before things, you know, go to hell in a handbasket.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, of course, of course. This also, by the way, where we're finally given that timestamp. Very helpful. We now know this is 858.

[Sara Brown]

Yep. And now we shift from how everyone is happy.

[Alan Sisto]

It's pretty drastic shift, isn't it?

[Sara Brown]

It's a pretty quick one. To a small group of people who aren't happy at all and at all. The guys in the Guild adventurers are, quote, not well content. Their leader has stayed in Numenor for 15 years. And recall that he came back from that 14 year journey in 843.

[Alan Sisto]

It's the other way that we know it's 858. It's really nice to finally start to piece together this timeline. Not that they couldn't sail without him, by the way. I mean, they had under other quote unquote gallant captains. But we come back to this problem that we've talked about before. The Guild adventurers is a cult of personality. They want to sail under Eldarion, not under these lesser captains. But now we get an explanation as to why they really want to sail under Aldarion.

[Sara Brown]

Always an agenda.

[Alan Sisto]

It helps that he is fripping rich. Without the wealth and authority of Aldarion, they couldn't go as far or as often. He is bankrolling this group. They're not profitable on their own. They're not out there, you know, whatever it is that they're not trading and doing, you know, making money off of becoming merchants or anything along those lines. They're just exploring. And so he's actually just writing the checks.

[Sara Brown]

And we also have a problem with supplies for building and repairing ships. There's not a lot of timber in the shipyards precisely because Eldarion's not been doing his job as the Master of the Forests.

[Alan Sisto]

That's true. But is I wonder to what extent.

[Sara Brown]

Minelda is partly responsible for this? Because he banned the felling of trees for the building of ships about, what, what, 29 years before that?

[Alan Sisto]

Correct.

[Sara Brown]

And only restored the practice when Aeldarion returned 15 years ago.

[Alan Sisto]

So you got an industry that was stopped for 15 years and only picked up 15 years ago.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. And somebody in charge of it who's not actually doing the job.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, there's that too. A combination. Yeah. I mean, you could see how that hiccup would cause, you know, a long rebuild process, especially if it's not actively being managed by the Master of Forests. So it's still trying to rebuild itself a little bit? Maybe. I don't know. It's just interesting.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. Yep. Maybe so anyway, the Guild guys ask Aldarion to get back to work on supplying timber, and he does it. Which is interesting, right?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

I mean, he's usually someone who only does what he wants, but he seems more than willing to do what he's asked to buy this particular bunch.

[Alan Sisto]

Because this particular bunch worships the ground he walks on.

[Sara Brown]

Yes, that does help, doesn't it? And frankly, they've also asked him to do something that he doesn't have a problem doing.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, that's true.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. It kind of gets him away from having to take any next steps now that he's betrothed. So initially, and we touched on this a little bit at the end of the reading because it was so powerful the way. The way you read it just. I don't know. There's something popped in my head. I was like, ooh, that's a little bit like what Nunath said, you know, about sharing the love. You know, you'd imagine that a recently engaged couple, a recently betrothed couple, and I want to be careful to use that word, would want to spend time together. Orendus goes with him into the forests as he's trying to do this job. But this is where we go back to that line. Name any tree that you love and it shall stand until it dies. I love all that grow in this aisle. So how hard is it then for her to watch this?

[Sara Brown]

Right. It's no wonder she's disturbed by what she sees. Seeing trees cut down, quote, unquote, in their prime. So she stops going with him, and now they were less in company.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, less in company. That is not what you need for. For this couple. Right.

[Sara Brown]

They're not even married yet.

[Alan Sisto]

They already don't communicate much to begin with. And if you're not in company, you're not going to be communicating.

[Sara Brown]

No. So they don't actually have. They have not had, let's face it, much of an opportunity to be in each other's company and build a relationship.

[Alan Sisto]

No, you're right, they have. Not that.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, I mean, he stormed off with some sulky toddler snit quite some time before, and then finally was reconciled.

[Alan Sisto]

I know. I want to understand what that reconciliation looked like. Was it like he was earlier, where he was properly humbled by his father and then, you know, apologized? I mean, like there were those moments where back to back, he's like, I deserve that you run away from me. You know, I've done that so many times and it was wrong and I beg you to forgive me. Was he apologetic? We don't know.

[Sara Brown]

No, I'm not convinced.

[Alan Sisto]

If he wasn't, I don't know that she would have been reconciled to him, though. There's a part of me that's like, she's had enough. He'd have to be pretty. Pretty persuasive, I think. I don't know. We'll never know what that reconciliation.

[Sara Brown]

Somebody needs to fill in the gaps by writing that particular piece of fan fiction. Oh, if only you could see Alan's face right now.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, they all know how it's like.

[Sara Brown]

He's sucking limes.

[Alan Sisto]

They all know how I feel about fan fiction. Write it. Enjoy it yourself. I don't. I don't need to read any of that, thank you very much.

[Sara Brown]

Why do you think I said that?

[Alan Sisto]

I know, I know. All right, so there was a lot that I wanted to say about this trees thing because I feel like at this point, more than any other previously, Tolkien is inserting himself into the story. His love for trees is famous, and we want to spend a little bit of time on that, but we're already going to be running long today, I think, so we're going to go ahead and move that to the P5. Hello, this is Jack Wilson, the host of the History of Literature podcast. For the past 10 years, I've been talking to novelists, biographers and scholars about the greatest books in the history of the world and the men and women who wrote them, like our recent episodes on Dante in Love, a starter pack of 10 Indian classics, the pop culture that influenced Sylvia Plath, and a talk with scientist and novelist Alan Lightman about the wonders of nature. Join us at the History of Literature podcast wherever you get your podcasts.

[Sara Brown]

We told you about the amazing PPP community after our earlier break. If you're a part of that community and want to enjoy something even more special, come join the Fellowship of the Podcast on Patreon. You get to be in the best discord community around, one that includes host hangouts and even live episode recordings.

[Alan Sisto]

And your support there is what enables me to work full time doing all of these shows from the PPP to today's Tolkien times. Rings of Power. Wrap up when that comes back and my streaming show the PPP plays. And when you join, you also get episode post scripts, add free episodes, free.

[Sara Brown]

Merch and more, and you can join the Questions After Nightfall episodes or even appear as a guest in the north wing. Go to patreon.com prancingponypod to show your support and join the Fellowship of the Podcast.

[Alan Sisto]

And don't forget to rate and review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And please recommend us to your friends. You can do that even now on Spotify. Just share the show directly with your friends. Sara it is time, you would think, for them to get married.

[Sara Brown]

You'd think so, wouldn't you? You'd think, well, let's see what's going to happen instead. Now the year came in, in which all looked for the marriage of the king's heir. For it was not the custom that betrothal should last much longer than three years. One morning in that spring, Aldarion rode up from the Haven of Andunier to take the road to the House of Beregar, for there he was to be guest and thither. Arindus had preceded him, going from Armenelos by the roads of the land. As he came to the top of the great bluff that stood out from the land and sheltered the haven from the north, he turned and looked back over the sea. A west wind was blowing as often at that season, beloved by those who had a mind to sail to middle Earth and white crested waves marched towards the shore. Then suddenly the sea longing took him as though a great hand had been laid on his throat, and his heart hammered and his breath was stopped. He strove for the mastery and at length turned his back and continued on his journey. And by design he took his way through the wood, where he had seen Arendus riding as one of the Eldar, now 15 years gone almost. He looked to see her so once more, but she was not there. And desire to see her face again hastened him so that he came to Beregard's house before evening. There she welcomed him gladly, and he was merry. But he said nothing touching their wedding, though all had thought that this was a part of his errand to the Westlands. As the days passed, Irendus marked that he now often fell silent in company when others were gay. And if she looked towards him suddenly she saw his eyes upon her, then her heart was shaken, for the blue eyes of Aldarion seemed to her now grey and cold. Yet she perceived as it were a hunger in his gaze, that look she had seen too often before, and feared what it boded. But she said nothing at that. Nooneth who marked all that passed was glad, for words may open wounds, as she said. Ere long, Aldarion and Arendis rode away, returning to Armenelos. And as they drew further from the sea, he grew merrier again. Still he said nothing to her of his trouble, for indeed he was at war within himself and irresolute.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, boy. As we say, a lot to unpack. We start with the year coming in. But what year? The text tells us the custom was for a betrothal period to be less than three years. So this must be second age 861. It's the spring of that year. So it's three years after their betrothal, because you remember it was on their descent to the Meneltarma after the Eruquierme, that they plighted their troth. And Eldarion takes a horse to Berrigar's house, where Arendus is already waiting. I suspect the only reason he did this is because he couldn't take a ship inland. But we'll get to that.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, probably true. And this is also clearly something arranged in advance. Right there he was to be guest. And one can only imagine that Horrendous and her family are now eagerly awaiting word as to, you know, the wedding.

[Alan Sisto]

Three years.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, it's been three years. Yes. Horrendous is 90 years old. The normal human equivalent would be 38.

[Alan Sisto]

That's still, you know, kind of get this done, man.

[Sara Brown]

But as he gets to the top of a bluff, he looks back at the sea. And this is the sea at Andunier. So he's Looking west towards the undying lands.

[Alan Sisto]

And it's a west wind blowing, the kind that mariners would use to help them sail eastward to Middle Earth with the wind. So these windblown waves with the wind behind them, that's why they're going to be white crested like that. They're crashing on the shore. He's not been at Sea for 18 years now. Like I was saying earlier, it's the longest he's been on land since he was a boy of 25. He's 161 now. So this is the longest he's been a landlubber since he was a kid. And then we get that sea longing described again, once again making him the passive victim of it. But also thought it was very interesting the way the sea longing was almost anthropomorphized. Right. With a hand on his throat.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, yeah. And he has a visceral reaction to it. His pulse races, his breathing stops and he fights internally against this. This desire to just get out on a ship and sail away.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah. There are times, and this is one of them, where I do feel for Eldarion in the sense that, oh, sure, he can still make choices and he could always say, no, I'm not going to do this, but, man, this is almost the way an addict feels about the thing that they're addicted to.

[Sara Brown]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

It's arguably out of his control. The desire, not the actions. The actions are still within his control. But this has got to be hard to fight.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, yeah. And he wins the fight for now.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sara Brown]

He continues on to Berrigar's house, taking the road where he'd unexpectedly run into horrendous. Get this, 15 years before.

[Alan Sisto]

15 years, man, you went looking for her. Actually, at the time, he wasn't even looking for her. He just was headed in that direction. And he goes. It's like, who's that elf?

[Sara Brown]

Through the woods, through the woods. Oh, look, it's an elf.

[Alan Sisto]

I do have to say I thought it was a really useful thing for him, a wise thing to by design, go that way. Like, not necessarily because he expected to see her, though he may have hoped to see her, as the text says. But if nothing else, it puts him in mind of that. Like, this is why I'm fighting against my desire to go to the sea.

[Sara Brown]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Because I do want to do this right thing. Thing. Right. There's, there's at least, at least he's fighting and I want to give him some credit for that. Even though a little bit, you know, a little.

[Sara Brown]

A Little sprinkle sprinkle of credit.

[Alan Sisto]

I might give him a dash. By the way, today's readings do give us a clear picture of just how long he waited after returning at 8:43. So remember, this was the 14 year voyage that ended in 843. That's 18 years ago. But he saw Aus here only 15 years ago. So he'd been back for three years before he went looking for her. Remember we were asking that question last episode? Three full years before he even goes looking. And he wasn't even looking like we just said, looking.

[Sara Brown]

No, he just stumbled across her. Well, he really wants to see her at this point, perhaps more than usual after this sea longing moment. So he gets a shift on and he gets to Beregar's house before the night sets in. And everything seems good. At first. He's described as being merry, horrendous, is happy to see him. So all seems okay.

[Alan Sisto]

It does, certainly on the surface. But you know, he doesn't say anything about the wedding. Which is odd, because everybody here is pretty sure that the reason he's here is to talk about the wedding. Right.

[Sara Brown]

Well, you would expect that after three years.

[Alan Sisto]

Why else is he here? Yeah, yeah.

[Sara Brown]

I mean, days go by during his visit and Arendus sees his moodiness. He's quiet when people are happy. He's always staring at her. A little creepy, but it's in those moments when he's looking at her that her fear returns. Remember when we heard about her fear before? It just says she set it aside.

[Alan Sisto]

Set it aside so it doesn't permanently defeat it. Right?

[Sara Brown]

No, no, no. It's just been set to one side and it comes roaring back. Here she sees a familiar hunger, one she'd seen too often before. But she doesn't say anything. Communication anybody again if she'd said something.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, what we have here is failure to communicate.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Drives me nuts. Nunez, who neither of us really liked before, with her ulterior motive, has just earned a lot more of my disdain.

[Sara Brown]

Same.

[Alan Sisto]

She's literally happy that Arrendus didn't say anything. Because, quote, words may open wounds. Good heavens, nuneth silence can rip those wounds wide open. With far more efficacy and cause plenty of new ones.

[Sara Brown]

That's it?

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, this is ridiculous advice. Words may open wounds.

[Sara Brown]

Yes, sometimes you need to open the wound to let the pus out.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Good Lord. This is not good mumming.

[Alan Sisto]

No, it's not good mumming at all.

[Sara Brown]

No.

[Alan Sisto]

Words may open wounds.

[Sara Brown]

Good lord. Anyway, eventually Aldarion and Arendys ride off on their own. Still no word on the wedding. Heading back. Not to Andunie, where Aldarion undoubtedly parked his ship, but he's off to our Menelaus.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

And she notes, and we're told that as they went inland and away from the water, he grew merrier again.

[Alan Sisto]

I thought that was really interesting. Like, he's not. If he was truly longing for the sea, you'd imagine that the farther away from it he was, the less happy he would be. But it's like out of sight, out of mind. A little bit like, okay, I don't have that temptation in front of me right now, and therefore I'm happy because I'm not stressed. I'm not a man of two minds.

[Sara Brown]

Oh my goodness. Is he a toddler? Is he a toddler?

[Alan Sisto]

No, he's not. He's a full grown man.

[Sara Brown]

Well, in that case, he has zero excuse.

[Alan Sisto]

That is true. But she still didn't say anything, right? I mean, again, her lack of communication is. Is mind blowing. I mean, the only thing I can think of is that she does know him pretty well. Maybe she perceived what the narrative tells us here, that he was internally at war, fighting against this sea. Longing and, you know, irresolute, which just means hesitating or indecisive. So maybe from her perspective, she's like, well, if I say anything, I risk him. I risk pushing him into the arms of the sea. Longing. I need to let him battle. And if he wants to talk about it, I'll talk about it. And if he ends up going that way, well, then I can say something. Probably the wrong choice because you want to say something before he gets there. But I at least can understand why she's hesitant. But I want to know what the irresolution is. Is he hesitant and indecisive about leaving and going on to the sea, or is he hesitant and indecisive about getting married?

[Sara Brown]

Well, I think that the text leaves that open for us for a reason. It's, I think, intentionally ambiguous.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Irresolute.

[Sara Brown]

Very Tolkien there.

[Alan Sisto]

What a word too.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. I mean, let's face it, okay. He's turned up at this party. It's been three years since they became betrothed, and no wedding weddings.

[Alan Sisto]

None.

[Sara Brown]

Right. So I would suspect that he's been vacillating for a little bit longer than just whilst he's at the party.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I mean, they don't. They haven't even sent out a save the date card. No, this is. This is bad. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Yes. Yes, it is. It doesn't help his position at all that he hasn't gone. Okay, so, yeah, we've been betrothed for a while now. Let's fix a date.

[Alan Sisto]

Let's start making some plans.

[Sara Brown]

Right, Exactly. Because let's face it, it's a royal wedding. You can't just do it overnight.

[Alan Sisto]

No, but the good news is, it's a royal wedding. So any venue you choose will say, yes, sir, whatever you'd like, sir, we'll cancel anybody else who had the spot, sir.

[Sara Brown]

Also true. Yeah, but still, you know, a royal wedding is going to take a minute to organize.

[Alan Sisto]

So all the circumstance, all the pump.

[Sara Brown]

You got to get on with it. But honestly, I do wonder if the sea longing is an excuse in some ways.

[Alan Sisto]

That's kind of what I wonder, you know, I mean, to his credit, he's been on shore for a very long time, as we'll see, in a conversation, come up with his dad. But there's a part of me that wonders, like, when you got betrothed, why didn't you just make plans for the next year? I mean, okay, the custom is that it doesn't go longer than three years. That doesn't mean it can't be shorter then. And you've already made her wait a long time to begin with, so just get this thing done. And like you said, maybe it's an excuse because he is, in a way, waiting for that. Like, even though he wasn't in the grip of the sea longing for the last few years, he's known it's out there. He's got to know somewhere in the back of his mind, every day that he's on land, he's waiting for that to grab him by the throat again.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And if he commits and plans the wedding, then he can't give in to that temptation.

[Sara Brown]

Except, of course, he will later on anyway.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, yeah, but, you know, he's thinking to himself, perhaps, okay, if I want to give myself room to fall into that temptation that I need to not plan the wedding yet.

[Sara Brown]

And this vacillating, I mean, it's so unfair.

[Alan Sisto]

It's weak.

[Sara Brown]

It is weak. It's really weak.

[Alan Sisto]

If you want to be a sailor, be a sailor. Tell her it isn't going to work. And go.

[Sara Brown]

Yes, exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

Just do it.

[Sara Brown]

Do something, for goodness sake. But wafting around like a feather on the wind. This is not right. This is not fair. It's not okay to do this to somebody.

[Alan Sisto]

No.

[Sara Brown]

And, you know, I can't blame Arendys for looking back on all of this and being Pretty annoyed in the end about the way she's been treated.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, understandably so.

[Sara Brown]

I mean, okay, she makes some dreadful choices down the line.

[Alan Sisto]

She makes some whoppers. Yeah, no doubt about that.

[Sara Brown]

Here at this moment, my sympathy is still a little bit more with the rendice because Eldarion is being an absolute pig, frankly.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, he's. He's being incredibly selfish. And my sympathy is limited to the fact that it sounds like Tolkien is trying to tell us at least, that the strength of this temptation is nigh and overwhelming. I mean, it may be not at the same level as the Ring. And the fact that Frodo could never have thrown it in the fire, as Tolkien writes. Right. Nobody could ever have overcome that. I don't think this rises to that level. But it does rise to a pretty strong external pressure on him. Again, I don't think it justifies his actions. I'm just saying I have some sympathy for him for that.

[Sara Brown]

And let's also face it, is this the first time he's seen the sea in three years?

[Alan Sisto]

Well, no, of course not. He's been working in Romenda the whole time. But this is quite the view, right? I mean, he's looking down on the Bay of Andunier, looking west towards, you know, towards Aman. He's got the setting sun and the white waves. This is that romanticized version of the sea. He's probably not remembering at this moment, his ship getting demasted and him on the deck going, struck by lightning. Struck by lightning. Wait, did I just concatenate Bilbo? And I did.

[Tom]

I did.

[Sara Brown]

I think you might have done that. So I think we need to move on to the bit where Eldarion really does badly.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, he does. And he does badly with the king who's trying so hard and doing so well. I feel like, once again, so many others in this story have wisdom and Aldarion does not.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, he's going to show a really nasty side of his selfishness in a second.

[Alan Sisto]

He really will. So the year drew on, and Aldarion spoke neither of the sea nor of wedding, but he was often in Romenna and in the company of the Venturers. At length, when the next year came in, the king called him to his chamber and they were at ease together. And the love they bore one another was no longer clouded. My son, said tarman, Eldur, when will you give me the daughter that I have so long desired? More than three years have now passed, and that is long enough. I marvel that you could endure so long a delay. Then Eldarion was silent, but at length he said, it has come upon me again, Alterinia. 18 years is a long fast. I can scarce lie still in a bed or hold myself upon a horse, and the hard ground of stone wounds my feet. Then Meneldur was grieved and pitied his son. But he did not understand his trouble, for he himself had never loved ships. And he said, alas, but you are betrothed, and by the laws of Numenor and the right ways of the Eldar and Edain, a man shall not have two wives. You cannot wed the sea, for you are affianced to earendus. Then Aldarion's heart was hardened, for these words recalled his speech with Erendis as they passed through Emmeria, and he thought but untruly, that she had consulted with his father. It was ever his mood, if he thought that others combined to urge him on some path of their choosing, to turn away from it. Smiths may smithy and horsemen ride, and miners delve when they are betrothed, said he. Therefore why may not mariners sail? If smiths remained five years at the anvil, few would be smiths wives, said the king. And mariners wives are few, and they endure what they must, for such is their livelihood and their necessity. The king's heir is not a mariner by trade, nor is he under necessity. There are other needs than livelihood that drive a man, said Eldarion, and there are yet many years to spare. Nay, nay, said Meneldor. You take your grace for granted. Arendus has shorter hope than you, and her years wane swifter. She is not of the line of Elros, and she has loved you now many years. She held back well nigh 12 years when I was eager, said Eldarion, I do not ask for a third of such a time. She was not then betrothed, said Meneldur, but neither of you are now free. And if she held back, I doubt not that it was in fear of what now seems likely to befall. If you cannot master yourself in some way, you must have stilled that fear. And though you may have spoken no plain word, yet you are beholden, as I judge. Then Eldarion said in anger, it were better to speak with my betrothed myself, and not hold parley by proxy. And he left his father.

[Sara Brown]

Ugh.

[Alan Sisto]

Gosh. It just.

[Sara Brown]

It's always somebody else's fault, it is.

[Alan Sisto]

And Meneldor tries so hard and gives him so much wisdom, so much clarity and insight, and he just. Oh, it's heartbreaking.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, Yeah. I mean, let's start pulling this apart. The year drew on. So this would be the year 861, as we'll soon be able to determine.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[Sara Brown]

Aldarion and Arendis are checks, notes. Still not communicating, still not talking about a wedding. But they're also still less in company because Aldarion is in Romana and hanging out with his guild mates. And the next year comes in. So that's 862, as Eldarion would soon give us a clue.

[Alan Sisto]

And that's when King Mineldor calls him, just to have a chat. And I love how this is described at first, how reconciled they truly are. They are at ease together with a love that isn't clouded.

[Sara Brown]

That doesn't last, though.

[Alan Sisto]

I know. It lasts a paragraph and it breaks my heart. Like, you guys have finally fixed your relationship, you know, and all of those years of your open rebellion, they're gone. And I can't help but think that part of the reason why that is is because he has been on land for 18 years.

[Sara Brown]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

And so Minelda probably thinks that his son has finally, finally understood where his duty lies and what he's supposed to do.

[Alan Sisto]

Duty. That's the word I want to keep landing on here.

[Sara Brown]

Yep, exactly. But I think Minelda has forgotten what a spoiled, prideful brat his son can be, which, of course, he now shows.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. And it doesn't take him long. So, you know, the King brings him in to talk. But it isn't a chat to talk about their fantasy football rosters or to plan their next deal. Father, son, fishing trip.

[Sara Brown]

No, alas, that would have been a lot better because Ronaldo asks him plainly, but again, really gently.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[Sara Brown]

He's not. He's not being pushy or anything?

[Alan Sisto]

No, he's kind of being playful, you know?

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. When are you gonna finally get married? You know, it's been more than three years. How could you possibly wait that long?

[Alan Sisto]

Wait, wait. Nudge, nudge. I think I put it in the notes to, like, O. Is this a reference? It is clearly a reference to Tolkien's morality that we see in the stories that, like elves, the men did not engage in sexual activity outside marriage. So he's very clearly saying, she's beautiful, man. How can you resist? Like, why don't you just get married and get this, you know.

[Sara Brown]

Get this done.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

I think it's very interesting, actually, that Aldarion isn't that bothered.

[Alan Sisto]

No. It comes back to what you suggested earlier, that perhaps there's a hint of just asexuality.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, he just. He's not that bothered.

[Alan Sisto]

Not interested.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. I mean, he.

[Alan Sisto]

A romantic even too, you know, he just says.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. He talks about how he was eager at one point, but I'm not sure he really was, but he did.

[Alan Sisto]

I come back to earnestly wooing. There's a period of time where it's not. He is said to have earnestly wooed or he. He deceived even himself when he was earnestly wooing. You know, so I gotta take that at face value, but at temporary, for sure.

[Sara Brown]

Sure. And here's the other thing. I think we can agree that in many ways Eldarion is a spoiled brat.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, 100%. Yes. He's had his way. Far too much.

[Sara Brown]

Right. And we see what happens when he thinks people are telling him what to do.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Oh, my gosh. We'll get to that. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

But, you know, what do spoiled brats do when there's something that they sort of. Kind of want, but then that thing cannot be theirs or will not be theirs?

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yeah. Then they go after it for sure.

[Sara Brown]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

I do wonder is playing into that, because, let's face it, you know, he woos her and he woos her and then he gets.

[Alan Sisto]

And then he gets her and she.

[Sara Brown]

Comes after him as he would probably perceive it, and then they are reconciled. And then he says, okay, we should get married. And she goes, yay. And. And nothing.

[Alan Sisto]

Nothing.

[Sara Brown]

Because he's finally got what he's been after. She's agreed to marry him, even if.

[Alan Sisto]

The actual marriage is nothing he's interested in. Yeah, that's a very good. That's a very good point. You're right. His interest level does seem. Except there are moments, right? There are moments like the desire to see her again, you know, that hastened him. There are so many moments later on, even genuinely, where it's. It's clear that he did have a very flawed and very imperfect love for her, but that it was, at least at times, very real to him. It's very complicated. It's very complicated. There is no simple answer to, like, what was the one thing Eldarion did? Or what was the one thing Orendus did? You cannot answer that question.

[Sara Brown]

People are complicated, aren't they? And, I mean, these two got more layers than an onion.

[Alan Sisto]

And that's the thing. Tolkien is so almost surprisingly good at this. Like, by the time I read this, I'd read the Hobbit, I'd read the Lord of the Rings, I'd read the Silmarillion in None of those, does he get this deep into the way a relationship works between two people? There's just nothing like this.

[Sara Brown]

Nope.

[Alan Sisto]

This is like a deep character study that we don't get of really anyone in the legendarium, except for these two. And it's so interesting to watch him do this. You're like, wow, you're good at this too. Is there anything you write that you're not good at? I mean, I did accordingly dislike allegory in all its forms, but I happen to write a killer allegory. I mean, just no matter what he writes, it's just phenomenal, you know, when his dad asks the question, Aldarion struggles. Right. He's been irresolute for a couple of years now. Right. He's waffling, vacillating. He's not talking about the sea, but he's also not talking about the wedding. So finally, he and I feel like this is in part because of the unclouded nature of their love, the fact that they are at ease together. That gets him to at least start the conversation. It doesn't last for very long, like you said, but he tells his dad the truth. The sea longing has. Has gripped me again. I think it's telling, though, that he doesn't name it. He just says it has come upon me again and then uses that term of endearment that means my father.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. It's also telling that Mineldor didn't need it named either.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yeah?

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. And it's here that we get the clue about the timeline. Aldarion says that 18 years is a long fast. That is a fast from the sea. And we know he last returned in second age 843.

[Alan Sisto]

So 18 years should make it 861. But I just told you it was 862. Why? Well, the thing is, we don't know when in the year 843 he returned. But we do know a few things that help us to draw a conclusion. First, this conversation is happening in the earliest part of the year. If he had returned at New Year in, let's say, 861, like he had on another trip that's likely to have been mentioned like it was for the other trip. Second, in the next episode, we'll read that he did not sail that year and then he made ready in the spring. They left in the month of Verese. We're told in the chronology that that upcoming trip, the one that he'll leave on next episode, begins in the year 863. Therefore, since he did not sail the year before, that year would be 862, which is therefore this year. That also fits with a mid or late year return in 843, and this being 18 years later.

[Sara Brown]

Yep. And it also fits with Manelda saying more than three years have passed. Yeah, I mean, okay, maybe that was a bit of a pedantic digression, but, you know, it was important, I think. Dates so back to Eldarion. He's getting incredibly anxious about being on land. He says he can't sit on a horse. Even the ground allegedly hurts his feet.

[Alan Sisto]

I admit, I think when I read that, I rolled my eyes probably audibly, like, what do you mean the ground hurts your feet? I mean, I get that he's trying to express to his dad just how hard this is for him to be on land, but good heavens, man.

[Sara Brown]

A bit of hyperbole.

[Alan Sisto]

Tough it out a little bit.

[Sara Brown]

A little bit, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

But, you know, in a way, you could say he's been toughing it out for a while, Right. It's been a couple of years that he's been. Who? The sea Longing. Can I fight this? Can I keep fighting this? So seeing his son in this sort of discomfort and also sort of almost at the mercy of this power that is external to them both, you know, it leads him to grieve for his son, understandably. Right. Even if it's partly his son's doing, he's still going to be sorry for him, but he doesn't understand it. Right. This is sort of an example of we can only understand what we experience. He can feel sorrow and be sad for him, but he doesn't understand ships in the sea have just never been his jam.

[Sara Brown]

Right, But. So even though he hurts for his son and he feels sorry for him, he also loves him enough to tell him the truth here.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Which again, shows us just how wise Minilda is. Really wise says gently, I think, but. But firmly. You now have a duty you didn't have before. You are betrothed.

[Alan Sisto]

And this is where I think it's really worth taking. Just a super brief aside, betrothed is not really the same thing as the more readily used being engaged, despite the two being kind of synonymous. Today, the word betrothed comes to English around 1300 from an old English word, treod, meaning truth or a pledge, and the prefix B, which in that context happens to mean thoroughly. So by the 1560s.

[Sara Brown]

Totally trothed.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, you're totally trothed, man. It was attested as a legally binding contract.

[Sara Brown]

Right? Yeah. I mean, engagements end, yes, hearts break, but it's no longer a legally binding contract or even a morally binding promise. But Aldarion and Arendus's betrothal is very much both of those things.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, And Maneldor makes that super, super clear. I mean, his words are so on point. Point, legally, by the law of Numenor, but also morally the right ways of the Eldar and Edain. I love that he references both actual law and moral law here. And by both of those standards, you don't get to have two wives. So you cannot be married to the sea because you are vowed, trothed, promised, obligated to Hirendus. You have a duty to her now. And it's not as great a duty as you'll have once you're married, but it's still a duty. And you're not living up to that.

[Sara Brown]

Right? Yes. And it's interesting that Milda immediately goes to the idea of Aldarion being married to the sea. He does understand that the relationship that Aldarion has with the sea is not just boating in the summer and enjoying a little bit of, you know, riding the waves of a weekend kind of thing.

[Alan Sisto]

No, not at all. He can see this is, yeah. Life absorbing thing.

[Sara Brown]

Yes, exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

He would be at sea all the time if he could.

[Sara Brown]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, all the time.

[Sara Brown]

Minelder understands that. It's interesting, isn't it, that Benelder here is also a bit all or nothing.

[Alan Sisto]

A little bit, yeah.

[Sara Brown]

But he's right. It's not that he's wrong at all, but he is all or nothing here to Aldarion in the same way that Arendis was talking about being all or nothing. And of course, her mother tried to shut that down.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Her mother was like, this is the way you've always been all your life. All or nothing. In a way, this is interesting because you notice what Minelda is not saying, which is, you know, Erendis needs to learn to share her love for you with your love to see.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Like a good wife should, you know. Yes, my queen Almarion. Yeah, my queen. She shares me with my love of the stars and she's fine with me that he doesn't say any of that. He recognizes that this is not just a hobby, this is an obsession. This will take your life. And he's already come at this from the angle of, you have a duty as the king's heir and you will have a duty as the king. Forget, even if you weren't married, but now you've got this extra layer of Obligation. And I think all of those things combined, plus just being reminded of how wrong he is, causes Eldarion's heart to. To harden. Or for him to harden his heart, if you ask me. But when I read that, it's still. I almost weep because this happens so quickly in this conversation. This had the potential to be such a good father son moment with two men who are, in theory mature, who now know and love each other very much, they're at ease in each other's presence. For it to go south this quickly really speaks to how thin skinned Eldarion is.

[Sara Brown]

It does. And also it speaks to how quickly he gets angry when anyone tries to thwart him.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, my goodness, yes.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. Which I think speaks a lot to his character.

[Alan Sisto]

100%.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. And with this hardened, Reed defensive self justifying heart, Eldarion assumes again, without asking, that Arendus is teaming up with his dad to conspire and to force the wedding. This is deeply unfair.

[Alan Sisto]

It really is unfair. And I like how the text is telling us, folks, this is unfair. Right. We see a lot of believing this or thinking that, and so it's usually left without comment. But here, Tolkien explicitly tells the reader that it's untrue.

[Sara Brown]

Right. Yeah. And here comes that stubbornness again. In fact, I would say it's more than stubbornness, it's total pigheadedness.

[Alan Sisto]

It is.

[Sara Brown]

Others have combined forces to give me counsel. Or even if just two other people happen, happen to agree with each other in disagreeing with me, there's no way I'm doing this.

[Alan Sisto]

I don't know, Eldarion, have you ever maybe just possibly allowed the merest thought to cross the mind that maybe you could be wrong? I mean, I know I better doc if I ask that, but don't think he ever has. No, that's the thing. It's like these people aren't conspiring. They just both happen to be right and you happen to be wrong.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

That doesn't mean that their opposition to you is opposition to you. It's that you're on the wrong side, man.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. That's not how he thinks though, is it? He's right. Always those two people are ganging up.

[Alan Sisto]

Against him and therefore I just reactionary. I will. Even if that thing is a good thing and even if that thing is something I was planning on doing, the mere fact that they want me to do it, I am going to do the opposite. It. That is toddler level stuff. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, it really is. And as we said, a toddler has an excuse. A Grown man has no excuse for.

[Alan Sisto]

This, let alone a man of like, what, 100 and something, 150 somewhere in that change.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. And he starts to try to argue his way out of it. He tries to justify it. It's a job. It's a profession. Other professionals don't stop doing their job just because they're betrothed. Why just Mariners?

[Alan Sisto]

Accountants still do math.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, really, Eldarion? I mean, can he not see the obvious answer to this question? Because his dad sure can. And he's not even a mariner.

[Alan Sisto]

He makes a point right away. If a Smith spent five years in his Smithy, never going home or speaking to his betrothed, wouldn't be a heck of a lot of Mrs. Smith's, would there?

[Sara Brown]

No, there would not.

[Alan Sisto]

No. And he even points out indirectly that most mariners are single. He says Mariners wives are female.

[Sara Brown]

You and recall a couple of episodes ago when Aldarion was arguing with Minelda about just looking for a wife?

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Sara Brown]

He says, cold is the life of a mariner's wife. And the mariner who is single of purpose and not tied to the shore goes further.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay. That does really put into sort of stark relief his decision to, to woo and to then become betrothed. Like, you know that. Yeah, you know that. That it's incompatible with being a mariner. That hurts. That's just. I mean, he, he knew this deeply unfair to a. It really is.

[Sara Brown]

It really is. It's selfish.

[Alan Sisto]

It really is. It's. It's absolutely selfish. And Maneldor is just reminding him of this truth and saying basically, maybe being a mariner is the problem, son. You know, Mariners like a. A real mariner who's married and, you know, has a family. And the Mariners wives got this cold life. It's very difficult. Difficult. Mariners that do this job as their livelihood are doing it from a place of need. Son, you're the king's heir. That is your livelihood. Being the king is your livelihood. And this is where he goes from. Not only do you have that duty to Arrendus, you have a duty to the people of Numenor to be king. And so he's trying to point out, if you can fulfill your duty to Numenor and be king, you can set aside being a mariner, which will enable you to. To fulfill your obligation to Horrendous.

[Sara Brown]

Well, at this point, he kicks off.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

I mean, his response here is, well, let's face it, it's weak. Well, I might not need to from a financial perspective, but I still need to do this.

[Alan Sisto]

Really? Do you now?

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Why?

[Sara Brown]

Okay, what's the need?

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, he's not wrong when he says there are other needs than just financial needs. He's right about that. Is this really one of those, though?

[Sara Brown]

No. I mean. Okay, let's put the most positive spin on this, right? He needs to do this. This is so much a part of him. It's. It's in his soul. Right? Okay, fine. Not great for the king's heir.

[Alan Sisto]

No, but.

[Sara Brown]

Okay, fine. But you don't get betrothed.

[Alan Sisto]

Thank you. That's exactly it. If that's the case, if you need to do this, then you also need ed to not become betrothed to Horrendous. Yeah, you needed to say years ago. This isn't going to work. You needed to cut her loose when she was young, before you brought back that diamond. 40 years ago.

[Sara Brown]

That diamond had better be Damn good after 40 years.

[Alan Sisto]

I would imagine it is.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. And then he goes down the same line that Minelda once went down. Oh, there's plenty of time. We're not in a rush.

[Alan Sisto]

I love though that meneldur, because remember, he is a wise king. Learned from his earlier assumption as he points out to his son, dude, you're wrong. You know, her years go by more quickly. She's already invested a huge chunk of her life loving you. Frankly, that sounds like a math problem, so.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, I'm gonna leave that one to you.

[Alan Sisto]

And it is. Right. So let's take a look at that. Born in second age771. She was 29 years old in 800 when she met Eldarion. He was 100. She nearly immediately falls in love with him. It's now 862. She has spent 62 years in love with him, to be precise. Spoilers. They don't get married until 870. Can you believe that? Here we are in what?

[Sara Brown]

Yes, I can believe it.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, this is what, 862. And they're still not going to get married for a little while. So they get married in 870, when Horrendous is 99. She has loved him for 70 of those 99 years. She lives to the age of 214. So she spent nearly one third of her entire life in love with Aldarian, but not yet married to him. That's like a 20 year old falling in love and not getting married until they're 47. That is insane.

[Sara Brown]

Yes. Yes, it is. Yeah, but look at the other point the king's making here. It's not just that, hey man, her life is shorter and she's wasted years already. But this, this. You take your grace for granted.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh boy.

[Sara Brown]

I mean, that has to bite. But no truer words have been spoken.

[Alan Sisto]

It's 100% true. He's taken. Think about the grace he took for granted earlier when it came to the ships.

[Sara Brown]

Yes, Right.

[Alan Sisto]

That got through before and I think Minelder is hoping it will get through again this time, you know, because. Because that really did hit home. And it's what ended up humbling him, you know, chastened him. Right. Properly chased him, reasoned. You take your grace for granted, but.

[Sara Brown]

That'S what you do when you're a.

[Alan Sisto]

Selfish little boy because you're entitled to it.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. And his response is the classic deflection.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh my God.

[Sara Brown]

Well, she denied me for 12 years. Wanted to get betrothed.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah, that's so.

[Sara Brown]

Really though. I mean, first recall earlier when he said 18 years is a long fast, yet now he's saying she held back well nigh 12 years. What does that say?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, there's a good six year chunk in there. I mean, he waited three years to go after her, and then there's three years where he's not pursuing her. That's what that says. And you could say that she denied you for a little while, but give me a break. She denied you for 12 years. You were on a ship for 14, so shut up. Up.

[Sara Brown]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Like you got no grounds to talk on this one.

[Sara Brown]

No. And he was not eager for all of those 12.

[Alan Sisto]

No, he wasn't. Nah.

[Sara Brown]

And then claiming that he's a good guy because he's not asking for even a third of that. In other words, I'm not asking for even four years. I mean, it's a freaking cheek that he's even asking for four years, but.

[Alan Sisto]

Dear listener, he's gone for six years.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, exactly. So he's a lying liar who lyingly lies.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, yeah. Even though he didn't know. He even says. The text even says he was gone longer than he intended. But whatever. Still it doesn't. I'm only asking for four years. Whatever. But once again, Maneldor, with a level head on his shoulders and Tolkien, again doing this amazing argument debate stuff that we talked about earlier, points out this one huge significant difference. When Norendez held back, she was not bound by betrothal. She hadn't made this legally and morally binding agreement. But son, you have.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. In fact, neither of you are free now to do whatever you'd like. All right? Arguably she Couldn't put off the wedding any longer if you wanted to move forward.

[Alan Sisto]

That's correct. She is legally, morally bound, too. Yeah. Mutual agreement it is. Yeah. No, you're right, that's. And that's interesting. I hadn't thought about it from that perspective, but if he'd wanted to get married six months later, she would have to have said okay. Yeah, but he has to do the same thing.

[Sara Brown]

He needs to do this. Well, of course he won't, will he? But, yeah. The whole point that Minelda is making is that the two of you have entered into this binding agreement. You're both equally bound by it.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

And it's not right that you just swan off.

[Alan Sisto]

It comes back to that thing we read, remember when he came back from one of these things and he didn't look for it because he was not yet ready to be bound or willing. Was not yet willing to be bound. So he knew. Right. I mean, that's the thing. If he knew, then I'm not willing to be bound yet, so I'm going to do this other thing. Well, that means, son, you were willing to be bound. And so whether you want to or not, you're bound. You made this promise.

[Sara Brown]

So, yep, you made a choice.

[Alan Sisto]

Meneldur has more to say. Right. This is where he has some insight into Erendis, but also really insight into Eldarion. Erendis held back for those years, almost certainly because she was afraid of what might happen. Because you seem to be unable to defeat this sea longing that has come after you so many times and, you know, for so long. Somehow, though, son, you managed to allay that fear. Now, maybe you didn't explicitly promise her, I'm never going to sail again, but whatever you said, you implied enough that she thought she was safe to say yes. And that makes you obligated.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. And he's not wrong.

[Alan Sisto]

No, he's not. I mean, this totally reminded me of. Because, you know, I used to be a practicing attorney way back in the day of the legal concept of an implied promise. Part of contract law. Real simple stuff. I mean, I was going to give you the most basic examples are things like. Like you sit down in a restaurant, you place an order with the waiter, you are promising. You're making an implied promise. You're going to pay the bill when the food comes. You get in a taxi, you're making an implied promise that you are going to pay that fare when you get to your destination. That's what's going on here. He has made an implied promise that he's not going to go off and sail. And she's relied on that promise. The legal concept. There is something called estoppel. He is now stopped from breaking that promise.

[Sara Brown]

What a great word.

[Alan Sisto]

It is a great word. Every once in a while, law school flits back in my head. Yeah. He can't do this. He's not supposed to go sailing because somehow he's convinced her that it was safe to say yes. And now he's making it unsafe.

[Sara Brown]

Right. Yeah. And all of this points to him making choices, selfishly choices. And with. Yeah. I pointed out earlier, I think that he has no real consideration for Arendis or anyone. And I think that's really implicit here.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Or explicitly explicit.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, it's very, very clear. But it's always been that way. I mean, even with Meneldor, you know, he just doesn't. He only cares about himself. He is inherently deeply selfish. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

There is a real kind of transactional feel to all of his relationships. He had this great relationship with his dad until his dad did something he. He didn't like.

[Alan Sisto]

That's an excellent point. And I think it even is reflected in his relationship with the land. We observed this earlier how much she loves the land for what it is, not for the things that she can barter for with it. Right. He sees the resources, he sees the numbers, the spreadsheet of what the land can give him so that he can go and grow more. And it's that transactional view that makes it so difficult for him to even understand or comprehend where his father's coming from, where Erendis is coming from. And it's why he just doesn't care.

[Sara Brown]

Right. And so as a result, Aldarion goes from at ease with his father to that hardened heart and now to anger, suggesting that he's been negotiating with Orendus by proxy with Minelda. And he storms out, storms out like.

[Alan Sisto]

A toddler or like a teenager at this point. Yeah, yeah. And. Well, we'll have to see what. What happens next time. But, you know, if barkeeps remained five years at the bar, very few people would get their mail. Sara, what does Barlan have for us tonight?

[Sara Brown]

Well, we have a question from Chris in Vermont, who would love to know what we think about this.

[Alan Sisto]

This.

[Sara Brown]

In what ways does Aldarion's obsession with shipbuilding parallel Feanor's obsession with the Silmarils? And are there similar consequences?

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, that's a deep question.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. These are the things that I make with my hands. They're better than anybody else's. My ships are better than your ships. I'm going to build bigger and better ships. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

There's a strong core of selfishness in.

[Alan Sisto]

Very much that strong core of selfishness in Eldarion's case, he at least is able to put the skin over it of advancing the cause of Numenor. Right. Like that'll enable us to go to the coast of Middle Earth and gain more wealth and gain more power. The Silmarils do seem to be sort of an end to themselves for Feanor. So that's one distinction that could be made. I'm not sure it's a distinction with a difference in terms of any sort of end picture. I like the question because there's a lot of Feanor in Eldarion.

[Sara Brown]

Yes. Somebody who's very self centered. Somebody who sees only his path, what he wants and everything outside of that. If it stands in his way, he simply goes through it.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. And I'm always reminded of that line about Feanor. The that few changed his mind by counsel, none by force. You could not get him off whatever he was going to do. And that's similar with Alarion.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. Because Aldarion, as soon as he thinks somebody is trying to thwart him, he will do exactly the opposite of what somebody is counseling him to do.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

And in many ways there are. I mean the consequences are. Are different.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh sure.

[Sara Brown]

But there are similarities to be seen. I mean for Feanor and the Silmarils the consequences are pretty quick.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes. And they're also pretty drastic. I mean Feanor dies pursuing.

[Sara Brown]

Yes. And they build exponentially over centuries, etc. Etc. Yeah. I mean Aldarion's, it's slightly different, but the choices that he makes in this time have resonance down the centuries and they build.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. I mean I'm thinking about the impact that it had on both of them individually. Pretty big difference. Right. Feanor gets killed trying to chase down the Silmarils. Aldarion lives out his life, ends up being almost 400 years old. Nothing really bad happens to him. But long resonance throughout the centuries, like you said, as a result of his actions. I also think of Feanor's sons and then Ancalome and how the sons were bound by this oath and how their lives were deeply and tragically impacted by Feanor's choices. And similarly how Ankalame's life is. But in her case it was also, you know, horrendous. So it's not just the one.

[Sara Brown]

Did you say horrendous or horrendous?

[Alan Sisto]

Horrendous I love that I meant horrendous. If I said horrendous, it was a slip of the toughest tongue. But that's great. That's a good question.

[Sara Brown]

They just sound so similar.

[Alan Sisto]

They really do.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Just wait till we get there. I know folks are like, man, you're bashing on Eldarion a lot. Yeah, well, A, he deserves it. And B, just wait. Really?

[Sara Brown]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Arendis, I think, has already done some things that haven't helped her, but it's. It's after the marriage that she makes choices that are so damaging.

[Alan Sisto]

Absolutely. Especially after she's a mom. Well, folks, thank you for joining us for another episode of the Prancing Pony podcast. Please come back next week when another six year journey goes by. Before the wedding of the century.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, well, that's because it took a century to happen. Now, Alan and I want to thank the members of Team PPP Editor Jordan Reynolds Barleyman, Becca Davis, Social media manager Casey Hilsey event and Patreon Code community coordinator Katie McKenna, graphic artist Megan Collins, video editor Jonathan Lacens, helping us get episodes up on YouTube and website Guru Phil Dean.

[Alan Sisto]

And please take a minute to check out the prancingponypodcast.com that's where you'll find show notes, outtakes, Prancing Pony ponderings. We are still in the midst of changing our vendors for merch, but our online storefront should be back soon. In fact, it might even be back up by the time you listen to this. You can get also sorts of cool PPP merch there, including all of the amazing chapter art that Megan's been doing for us for three plus seasons, including the glorious Aldarian and horrendous design.

[Sara Brown]

Oh yes. Now we're all about the books here at the Prancing Pony podcast, so be sure to also visit our library page. We try to make sure that any book we've mentioned on the show is linked there for you to purchase. And we do get a small amount of compensation when you make your purchase. So thank you for that.

[Alan Sisto]

We also want to thank our patrons at the CIR Dance contribution tier. I'll start with Demay in Alaska, Chad in Texas, Lance in New Jersey, Joseph in Michigan, Kathy from North Carolina, Brian in the uk, Jerry from Washington, Irwin from the Netherlands, Ben in Minnesota, Anthony in Texas, Zaksu in Illinois, Joshua in Massachusetts, Lucy in Texas, Erica in Texas, Vivian in California, and James in Massachusetts.

[Sara Brown]

There's also Ann in Kentucky, Sean in New Jersey, Mason in California, Maureen from Massachusetts, Olivia in London, Robert in Arizona, Nick in Wisconsin, Lewis in South Carolina, Thomas in Germany, Craig in California, Kevin in Massachusetts, Bruce in California, Joe in Maryland, Scott in California, Jeffrey in Michigan and Paul in Colorado. Thank you all so very much for your support indeed.

[Alan Sisto]

Thank you.

[Sara Brown]

Now make sure you don't miss any episodes of the Prancing Pony Podcast. Subscribe now through Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music or your favorite podcast app.

[Alan Sisto]

And one last thing. As always, don't forget to send your thoughts, comments and most of all your parley's by proxy to Barman at the prancing pony podcast.com now Barloman does have.

[Sara Brown]

A lot of mail to sort through though, so we'll try to get to you just as soon as we're able.

[Alan Sisto]

As always, though, this has been far too short a time to spend among such excellent and admirable listeners. But until next time, Hvar, Farewell folks.