388 – All You Need is Love (Maybe)

Summary

The Prancing Pony Podcast

Episode 388 – All You Need is Love (Maybe)
Air Date: November 2, 2025
Hosts: Alan Sisto (A) & Sara Brown (B)
Special Guest: Jack “Jersey Jack” Guarnieri (C), Jersey Jack Pinball

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into the fifth installment of a ten-part deep read on the story of Aldarion and Erendis from Tolkien’s Unfinished Tales. Alan and Sara examine the warped love, communication breakdowns, and tragic misunderstandings in this famously troubled relationship, set against the lush backdrop of Númenor’s golden age. The hosts move from wisecracks and puns to incisive textual analysis, wrestling with themes of longing, loyalty, the price of progress, and the clash between personal desire and societal expectation.

Halfway through, Alan and Sara chat with “Jersey Jack” from Jersey Jack Pinball about the making of the 2014 Hobbit pinball machine, detailing the adaptation process of Middle-earth to arcade form.

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Key Segments

1. Welcome & Series Context

[04:01-06:15]

• Alan opens with humor, referencing sleeplessness and self-effacing jokes about podcasting and Tolkien nerdery.
• Sara (“Shield Maiden of Rohan”) introduces the episode's main reading focus: the long and contentious betrothal/marriage of Aldarion and Erendis in Unfinished Tales.
• The hosts underscore their blend of deep lore, speculation, and light, pub-like banter:
  “While we take the work seriously, the same cannot be said about ourselves. We’re just a couple of friends chatting at the pub.” (B, 05:25)

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2. Special Guest Interview: Pinball, Adaptation, and Middle-earth

[06:15–19:44]

The Hobbit Pinball Machine: Challenges & Lore

• Getting the License: Jack recounts winning the rights from Warner Brothers, rooted in his company’s success with Wizard of Oz.
• Adapting Three Films into One Game:
  “When I got it, it was two movies, and then somewhere in the middle, it became three movies. So it changed everything.” (C, 07:24)
• Physical and Digital Immersion: The game features custom speech, extensive audio and movie clips, and a wide-body cabinet to convey cinematic scope.
• Secret Struggles & Redesigns:
  “The big secret of the whole three movies was what is Smaug gonna look like?... We had to redesign the game. It took another year and a million dollars.” (C, 10:16–11:22)
• Adaptation Philosophy:
  “We stayed true to the story. We didn’t ad lib or add anything that wasn’t in the story.” (C, 13:47)
• Mechanical Marvels & Thematic Design: Resettable drop targets echoing the tactile lore, with every detail scrutinized by Warner Brothers.
  “Every week you have a phone conference with the stakeholders... Every square inch of the game is scrutinized.” (C, 15:46–16:14)
• Future Projects & Storytelling Needs:
  “We’re storytellers, basically. We’re telling the story through the game.” (C, 18:29) “You got to create a whole story... It takes longer to do that than even licensing something. So you’re better off licensing great property.” (C, 18:55)
• Link for Locating Machines:
  “You can go to Pinball Map, pinballmap.com.” (C, 19:34)

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3. Close Reading: Aldarion & Erendis – The Betrothal’s Breaking Point

[19:52–84:57]

The Long-Awaited Conversation

[19:53–37:44]

• Eldarion, longing for the sea, plans another voyage despite his betrothal to Erendis. When she expects talk of marriage, he instead proposes another trip, suggesting she join him as queen—but at sea, which she dreads.
  • “It shall be now, he said. It shall be before this year is done. And then I will fit out such a ship... and you shall sail with me, Erendis, under the grace of the Valar...” (A reading, 21:29)
• Erendis responds with grief:
  • “But I shall never see [those lands], for I do not desire it. To the woods of Númenor my heart is given ... out of sight of land I should die. The sea hates me. And now it is revenged that I kept you from it...” (B reading, 21:48)
• Alan and Sara reflect on Aldarion’s self-absorption and Erendis’s fortitude and clarity:
  • “Why am I not surprised that even though it’s now been four years since they’ve been betrothed, Aldarion’s first topic of conversation is not the wedding... his first subject is himself.” (A, 22:23)
  • "She ends instead with a request to have pity on her. Please don’t make me wait as long as I’ve had to wait before." (A, 34:55)

Six Years’ Absence and Númenor’s Growing Discontent

[43:52–66:11]

• Aldarion delays his voyage for a year, then sails, leaving Erendis with little choice. Six years pass before his return, during which he is delayed both by disaster (the ruin of Vinyalondë, hostility from Middle-earth’s men, “rumors of some lord... who hated the men of the ships” [i.e., Sauron, 59:10]) and storms.
  • “He found even Almarian the Queen colder in welcome. And the venturers were fallen out of esteem, for men thought that he had treated Erendis ill.” (B, 45:50)
  • “The bough was covered in frost... I saw that it was withered.” (A, 45:50)
• Sara & Alan explore the growing theme of colonial harm and its consequences, drawing parallels with real world histories:
  • “When a bunch of people land in ships and then just destroy the woods, the forests around you... It’s gonna make you grumpy, right?” (B, 54:39)

Reunion & Emotional Reckoning

[66:25–80:29]

• Upon his return, Aldarion is at a loss for words. Erendis is pointed but polite, prompting him to defend the reasons for his extended absence. She accepts his explanations but notes the cost (“I thank them also that I did not come with you, for I should have withered sooner than any green bough.”).
  • “It is not yet chilled to the death, Aldarion. Alas, how can I dismiss you when I look on you again, returning as fair as the sun after winter. Then let spring and summer now begin, he said. And let not winter return, said Erendis.” (B reading, 67:03)
• The analogy of her love to the evergreen oilë tree is discussed (“her love is not yet chilled to the death”), foreshadowing future heartbreak.

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4. The Wedding and Gifts from the Eldar

[82:56–110:48]

The Festivities & Elven Presence

[82:56–98:18]

• After 12 years of betrothal, Aldarion and Erendis are married in grand style—parades, music, and legendary feasts across Númenor, climaxed by a celebration in Andúnië attended by the Eldar.
  • “none were more fair than Erendis. And they said that her eyes were as bright as were the eyes of Morwen, Elethwen of old, or even as those of Avalonné.” (B reading, 84:57)
• Alan and Sara break down the symbolism of Erendis’s beauty, connecting her to Morwen, and muse on the presence of Noldorin and Telerin elves, and the gifts they bring.

The Gifts: Symbolism & Division

[98:23–110:48]

• The Elves bestow two central gifts:

  • To Aldarion:
    A sapling whose wood is untested. Aldarion’s first thought is its value as timber, missing its true beauty—a reflection of his priorities. “The wood of such a tree must be precious indeed. Maybe we know not, said they. None has ever been hewn.” (A reading, 100:52)
  • To Erendis:
    A pair of birds, inseparable and only singing together, symbolizing unity; the elves assure her they will never need caging. “If one were separated from the other at once they flew together, and they would not sing apart.” (A reading, 104:10)

• Sara draws out the pointed symbolism:

  • “If you are together, if you are singing in harmony... But should anything happen, then silence.” (B, 105:19)

• Symbolic Placement: The birds follow Erendis wherever she goes; together with the tree, their new home is adorned with these symbols of hope and harmony.
  “There the elven tree was planted, and the elven birds sang in its boughs.” (A reading, 110:03)

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5. Analysis, Discussion & Listener Questions

Commentary on Tradition vs Progress

[112:06–115:52]

• Listener William from Missouri asks:
  How does the story explore the tension between tradition and progress in Númenor?

  • Alan and Sara dissect Númenor’s balance between Aldarion's drive for global expansion/technological progress and Erendis’s advocacy for natural preservation and rootedness.
    Duality in Númenor’s fate is foreshadowed—its progress is both salvation and downfall: “Colonialism could be couched in Aldarian’s terms as being progress... But of course, this is the slippery slope down which Numenor will eventually, to torture the metaphor, sink.” (B, 115:18)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

“My shocked face, yes.”
(B, 22:54 – On Erendis's suppressed frustration with Aldarion’s self-absorption.)

“She ends instead with a request to have pity on her. Please don’t make me wait as long as I’ve had to wait before. That’s very reasonable... It’s more than he deserves.”
(A&B, 34:55)

“If one were separated from the other at once they flew together, and they would not sing apart.”
(A reading, 104:10 – The birds as an emblem of marital unity.)

“Aldarion catches that and he says it’s time for those warm weather seasons to begin. — 'Spring and summer.' — 'Oh yes. Yes. Because yay. I haven’t messed this up 100%'”
(A&B, 78:11)

“This is Aldarion we are talking about, a man who is so self focused...So self serving and self centered and many other things beginning with self”
(B, 26:09 – Summing up Aldarion’s tragic flaws.)

“Vignolande, hostile men, rumors of Sauron. But then he runs into bad weather again... Interesting, right, that everything seems to be against him.”
(B, 62:35)

“The caging of songbirds was thought an unkind deed...for those that were tame...would, for generations, dwell near the same house.”
(A, 107:48 – Quoting The Nature of Middle-earth for context.)

“He cannot appreciate the natural beauty of the tree for its own self. He can only think of how he might put it to use.”
(B, 101:20—On Aldarion's inability to see value beyond utility.)

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

| Segment | Timestamp | |-----------------------------------------------------|------------------| | Main theme, episode intro | 04:01–06:15 | | Jersey Jack Pinball interview | 06:15–19:44 | | Aldarion & Erendis argument/betrothal impasse | 19:53–37:44 | | Aldarion’s six-year absence, colonial critique | 43:52–66:11 | | Reunion & emotional reckoning | 66:25–80:29 | | Wedding and Elven gifts | 82:56–110:48 | | Tradition vs. Progress listener question | 112:06–115:52 |

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The Prancing Pony Podcast Tone

True to PPP tradition, Alan and Sara combine meaty, deep-diving textual exegesis with wry British and American wit, puns, and asides (“That flapping you hear is just the red flags in the breeze”). They shift with ease between scholarly discussion, listener empathy (“You, dear reader, will know what’s coming...”), and collective groans at the interminable Aldarion/Erendis saga (“So it’s only been 69 years since they first met, so…what’s the rush?”).

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Summary

This episode masterfully interlaces an entertaining behind-the-scenes look at Middle-earth’s adaptation into popular culture (via pinball!) with a wise and sometimes scathing unpacking of one of Tolkien’s most psychologically acute stories. Aldarion and Erendis’s love story—riven by misaligned desires, incommunicable needs, and societal change—is dissected for both its human drama and its symbolic value, with the hosts teasing out every glimmer of metaphor in Tolkien’s layered prose. The elven presence at the wedding, their gifts, and the hosts’ chorus of exasperation at Aldarion’s foibles, all paint a picture at once beautiful, tragic, and darkly funny—a quintessential PPP experience.

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For More

• Pinball locations: pinballmap.com
• Further reading: The Unfinished Tales, “Aldarion and Erendis”; Nature of Middle-earth; The Lord of the Rings (for Morwen and Lothlórien flower references)
• Next episode: The arrival of Ancalimë, and (predictably) Aldarion’s next departure...

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End of Summary

Transcript

[A]

Folks, you might remember earlier this year when I got to tell you about a new Middle Earth sponsor here at the Prancing Pony podcast, osha. As the holidays and gift giving times approach, I want to remind you about this small family company based in Scotland. They've created beautiful designs that faithfully capture the feel of the Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit. OSHA's Middle Earth collection is a genuine passion project for them and you're definitely going to find something you want either for yourself or a loved one. Or maybe both. They're woven pieces, things like blankets, throws, scarves. They're all made locally from responsibly sourced yarns and their homeware, things like mugs and tea towels and tote bags. Really perfect for gifts or for your own home. I use my mugs from them all the time. The Realm of Middle Earth and Ancients of Gondor. If you want to check out those designs, so visit oshaslings.com that's O S C H-A slings.com yeah, they started out as a baby carrier company, hence the slings. So if you're a new or expecting parent, yes, they have Lord of the Rings themed slings and baby wraps too. Small family business faithfully captured Middle Earth designs, ethically made products and free international shipping. And one more thing, OSHA knows that with the tariff changes and the rules about de minimis exceptions and all of that, folks are concerned about ordering from overseas. All of their shipments will come with customs fees and duties paid up front. No extra fees for you. What you see at checkout you is all you'll pay. Plus there's 10% off for new customers with Code Pony at checkout. So visit oshaslings.com that's O S C H-A slings.com and use code pony to get 10% off your first order here at the holidays. Folks, a few months ago I got to introduce you to the softest and coziest sponsor that we've ever had here at the podcast Lola Blankets. Back when they sent me mine, absolutely blown away. Felt soft, stretchy, super cozy. In fact, I'm planning on giving a couple of these blankets as holiday gifts. It's a luxurious gift and honestly perfect for those people in your life that just love being cozy. Lola Blankets are blankets done right too? Yeah, it feels like fur. It's so soft. But it's actually ultra soft luxury vegan faux fur with a four way stretch. They're machine washable, double hemmed. Honestly, they stay flawless even after repeated washes. No pilling or shedding. Lola blankets are already big, but I gotta tell you, if you want massive. They call their extra large blankets the biggest blankets on the Internet. And it's seven and a half feet long. They sure are huge. They have matching pillows so you can save when you bundle. And they even have weighted blankets for those calming vibes. Though I have to say they're already nice and heavy to begin with. Perfectly personal, beautiful blankets make for great gifting. Cozy, thoughtful and perfect for that one person that's just impossible to shop for. Give the gift of softness this holiday season with LOLA Blankets for a limited time, our listeners are getting a huge 40% off their entire order at lolablankets.com by using code pony at checkout. Just head to lolablankets.com that's L O L A blankets.com and use code pony pony for 40% off. Now, after you purchase, they'll ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them we sent you time.

[B]

It's always vanishing. The commute, the errands, the work functions, the meetings. Selling your car. Unless you sell your car with Carvana, get a real offer in minutes, get it picked up from your door, get paid on the spot so fast you'll wonder what the catch is. There isn't one. We just respect you and your time. Oh, you're still here. Move along now. Enjoy your day. Sell your car today. Pickup fees may apply.

[A]

Good evening, little masters, and welcome to episode 388 of the Prancing Pony Podcast, where I am robbed of all sleep and rests.

[B]

Ugh, I thought you were here to do a podcast.

[A]

Well, that too.

[B]

Folks, pull up a bench in the common room and join us. Don't fall asleep on that bench, though. Unlike Alan, I'm Sara Brown, the shield maiden of Rohan. And I'm here with the just about awake man of the west who is often gone longer than he had purposed, Alan Sisto.

[A]

And I can't even blame it on rumors of Sauron.

[B]

Not this time.

[A]

Join us as Eldarion sails away while Erendis waits. And eventually, they finally, after all this time, get married. In the fifth of our ten episodes on Aldarian and Arendus from Unfinished Tales.

[B]

Why the brush? It's only been a 12 year betrothal, folks. No matter whether you come to Middle Earth through the books, the films, the TV show, or something else, each of you is welcome here in our common room. The Prancing Pony Podcast continues in our 10th season of Reading and talking our way through Middle Earth, with conversations and few digressions and even a bunch of speculations.

[A]

Oh, definitely. Especially in this story. Not to mention a few puns and bad jokes here and there. I only. Here and there, I promise.

[B]

Mostly here and occasionally there.

[A]

Yeah. Our purpose is to dive deep into the lore. We love to discuss the story, our favorite characters, themes, Tolkien's inspirations, and a whole lot more.

[B]

And while we take the work seriously, the same cannot be said about ourselves. We're just a couple of friends chatting at the pub. And we're glad you joined us. And.

[A]

And I'm sure you'll be glad you joined as well. But before we get to tonight's chapter discussion, we want to sit down with a special guest. Now, I confess that when I was first contacted by the folks at Jersey Jack Pinball, I thought it might be a mistake. I mean, don't get me wrong, ever since I was a young boy, I've played the silver ball. Used to spend my paper root money down at the bowling alley on pinball games way back before Asteroids and Space Invaders were a thing.

[B]

Yeah, because you're that old.

[A]

Oh, hush. I knew you were going there. But what could pinball have to do with Middle Earth?

[B]

And then we saw what Jersey Jack Pinball did with the Hobbit and thought, yeah, let's go ahead and have a chat. So we're sitting down today with Jersey Jack from Jersey Jack Pinball and Talking about the 2014 pinball adaptation of the Hobbit films.

[C]

Thank you. Hey, it's great to see you guys. Nice to see you.

[A]

Yeah, Real pleasure. Now, I have to say, this does seem, at first glance, an unlikely crossover, or at least one that would be difficult to pull off. I mean, the Hobbit is a book that takes several hours to read, several hours just to watch the films. I've got a question. How did you adapt the pacing of the story to that sort of shorter time frame that you get with a pinball game?

[C]

Well, the game is gigantic, physically. And as far as the code goes in the game, it's about. It's about three games, because most pinball machines are based on one movie. You know, that was the second game the company did. The first game was the wizard of Oz. It's one. One movie, Right. So when I got the license, which was not easy to get, but Warner Brothers, who controlled it, there was another company wanted it. They had done Lord of the Rings before. I wanted the Hobbit. And they looked at what we did with wizard of Oz, and they said if he did this with wizard of Oz. Can you imagine what they can do with the Hobbit? So I got the license, and it was. It was great because be careful what you wish for.

[B]

When I.

[C]

When I got it, it was two movies, and then somewhere in the middle, it became three movies.

[A]

Yep.

[C]

So it changed everything. It changed everything.

[A]

Oh, I can't even imagine trying to increase the size of the game by 50%. You know, when you go from two.

[C]

Films to three, well, it's a wide body game, which. Which means that the cabinet is a few inches wider than a standard game. You could get a little bit more real estate to do some more toys and tricks and things like that. We. And all the games we do, we take the theme and we really. We really melded into the whole game. You get a sensory experience. It's not just playing a game.

[A]

Right.

[C]

Because you're being overloaded with speech. Custom speech, movie clips on the big screen. And it's all choreographed to things that are happening in the game. So what you're really doing is you're playing the movies.

[A]

Oh, okay. I did notice that in the videos, there was. There was something in the trailer or the little preview about it that talked about, you know, hundreds of lines of actual audio from the film.

[C]

It's terabytes of stuff. That's. It's. It's just so much stuff.

[A]

I believe it.

[C]

And. And. And we had custom speech because, you know, if you do a movie, you do any property, there's what's called, we call pinball speech. Like shoot the ramp or extra ball and things like that that actors don't say in a movie. Nobody's gonna shoot the ramp, you know, so with. With Smaug, Benedict Cumberbatch, we had a guy that sounded just like him.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

And it was a battle with Warner Brothers. I had actually go to Olive Avenue in Burbank and have a meeting in the conference room. And what Warner Brothers told me was, listen, Jack, he could sound like Benjamin Benedict Cumberbach, but he can't sound too much like him, and he can't sound not like him.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[C]

So what's that? What am I trying to do here?

[A]

Similar but not identical.

[C]

Oh, gosh. It was.

[A]

That's right.

[C]

You say that to the voice actor. They've heard that before, though.

[A]

I actually got into podcasting from the voice acting realm.

[C]

You got a great voice.

[A]

Thank you, Jack. I appreciate it.

[C]

Should be on radio.

[A]

Actually, I studied for that. I studied for communications to hopefully do radio work, but ended up doing this instead, which Is basically modern radio.

[C]

You have a face for television.

[A]

That is exactly. Oh, really?

[B]

Not what I usually.

[A]

I usually say faces for radio, but thank you.

[B]

You're very.

[C]

I just met you, so. I can't. I can't. I can't too.

[A]

Good stuff.

[B]

So. So, Jack, when you found out that it was going to be three films rather than two films, did you have to go right back to the beginning and redo all your planning?

[C]

Some of it, yes. Because we had to break it up. And you know, when you get a license like this, you actually sign a piece of paper that says if you spill any secrets, oh yeah. You're responsible and you're talking about billions of dollars.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And all the. All the things that we got from Warner Brothers were watermarked. And the big secret of the whole three movies was what is Smaug gonna look like? What does that dragon look like? Because it was a big secret. And we made a playfield and it was beautiful artwork. It was a lot of blue colors in it. And Smaug looked like a flying rat. You know, from what they gave us, it wasn't much of anything.

[A]

No.

[C]

And then all of a sudden one day there's an airplane that Peter Jackson has in New Zealand.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And this smog blasted all over the place. It all over the airplane.

[A]

I remember that.

[C]

And I said this is a heck of a license to work with. It taught me never to work on a license with a movie in process. You know, look, the wizard of Oz was 70 something years old at the time. We knew what the witch looked like. We knew Dorothy looked like. It was no surprise. But these guys are killing us. We had to redesign the game.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Redesigning the game. It took another year and a million dollars and another year. So if you. If you can believe that.

[B]

Yikes.

[C]

The timeline was November of 12th. I announced the license. October 14th, I showed the game at pinball Expo. Everybody loved it and everything. But we went and redesigned it and it wasn't until March of 16 that it came out.

[A]

My goodness.

[C]

So it almost put me out of my misery.

[A]

I bet it did. Well, that's good.

[C]

But we created an amazing game. Award winning game.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You know when we have things like the beasts coming up from the middle earth, you know, up to the playfield and you have the. The room with all the gold with Smaug. And he turns around and he says all those great lines and gets the heck out of you. If you hear it for the first.

[A]

Time, seeing the video of this, I mean it's. It's for me, it's a. It's a bummer that it was out so long ago. Not that I was going to be able to buy my own pinball machine, but now I got to go find a place where this is.

[C]

So, you know, we built about 3,000 of them.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

At the time we were building them, we built a few different models. We built a Smog edition, a gold Smog edition, a Black Arrow edition. All different graphics, beautiful graphics. And yeah, now that the game is out, I guess it's 10 years, a little bit more. Maybe people are just hunting the game down, and people that have it don't want to get rid of it.

[A]

Oh, of course not.

[B]

It'll be a collector's item now.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Oh, for sure. Yeah.

[B]

So, like anyone else, creating any kind of adaptation of Tolkien's works, and yes, a game is an adaptation, folks. You want to reach both the casual fans who enjoy the films and have never read the books, as well as the hardcore fans of the lore. Right. Folks like us and the listeners to this podcast. So how did you develop the Hobbit pinball game in a way that would ensure it reaches fans of the wizard Gandalf as well as pinball wizards, if you'll pardon Alan's terrible pun that he.

[A]

Wrote in Blame it on Me. Throw me under the bus.

[B]

I say throw you under the bus, Alan.

[C]

Wizards are great. What we did was we stayed true to the story. So we didn't. We didn't ad lib or add anything that wasn't in the story.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And the artwork itself, we had an artist, Jerry Van der Staal, who's.

[A]

Oh, Jerry. Yeah, I know Jerry. Actually, a lot of our audience knows.

[C]

There you go. Jerry Van Der. Still did the artwork on this game.

[A]

That's fantastic.

[C]

So. And we had. We. We had amazing musical compositions. We had.

[A]

We just.

[C]

We just had the best of the best work on it.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And everybody, you know what happens. Everybody eats, breathes, and sleeps this. This title.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And if you didn't know it by the end of the game process, after, you know, two, Two, two and a half years developing the game, you knew. You knew it pretty well. You were like, okay, you know, I gotta go. Yeah, watch snow.

[A]

Time to go read the books and watch the movies.

[C]

Right.

[A]

That's awesome.

[B]

So how do you do justice, as it were, to the story in this sort of tactile, physical format? Especially since the story itself isn't always based on the tactile and the physical. How do you do that?

[A]

Yeah, like themes like Greed or, you know, all the thematic material. How do you translate that to a. To a pinball table?

[C]

It's. It's a process of the audio, the visual on screen, and the physical that's painted on the play field in the cabinet. And it's the. It's what the ball does. So with that, with this game, we set up special drop targets that they reset themselves. That was a big deal. We actually have a patent on a resettable, triple resettable drop targets. We haven't used them since, but. Well, they're a little noisy. It's a characteristic of the game. You know, mechanically, you can't get over that because pinball is a mechanical game. It's a game of skill. And even though the ball is wild, you know, it's still a skill game. Yeah.

[A]

And it's beautiful because of that analog nature, by the way. That's one of the reasons I still love it.

[C]

And also figure that every week, every week, you have a phone conference with the stakeholders that own the property. In this case, Warner Brothers.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And you're iterating. You're submitting things to be approved. And they're saying, yes. You know, change this slightly. This eyebrow has to be a little higher, lower. This character needs this little shade of brown or whatever it is.

[A]

Wow. That level of detail.

[C]

You wouldn't believe it. You wouldn't believe. It's. It's a crazy attention to detail. Every. Every square inch of the game is scrutinized. Not so much. You know, we do explain the rules to them, what the ideas. You know, it's. It's. It's really the movie, you know. Yes. Get Smelled with the Black Arrow. So.

[A]

Right on.

[B]

Amazing. Sounds absolutely incredible.

[C]

Actually, it takes about 25 people on a team to do it. Between engineers, electrical engineers, mechanical engineers, sound engineers, you know, artists, programmers, and then it goes to hundreds of people and probably thousands of people if we include our vendors in the whole process from.

[A]

All over the world. That is amazing. So there are current and future Middle Earth projects. I mean, you're obviously. I've taken a look at the Jersey Jack pinball website, which we'll be including in our show notes, and you do some incredible tables, incredible games for other properties. But there are more Middle Earth things coming up. Like. Well, there's Amazon TV's the Rings of Power. We have a show talking about that. Then, of course, there's the upcoming Warner Brothers film, the Hunt for Gollum, directed by Gollum himself, Andy Serkis. You may not even be able to tell me the answer. To this question, Jack, but are you looking into visiting Middle Earth again and making a pinball game for any of these other projects?

[C]

You know the answer, the short answer is yes, because I'm always looking. You know, I do licensing for the company. I, you know, me and my partners, we work together and we try to figure out what the next thing should be and who we. Who we appeal to because we don't do any violent games. We don't do any blood and guts kind of games like that.

[B]

Nice.

[C]

Yeah, we did the Godfather, but it's a family game, but it's a different family, you know, so. But. But really, you know, games like Willy Wonka, Toy Story, Harry Potter, you know, amazing games.

[A]

Yeah, I was looking at the Harry Potter one, which is fairly recent. Pretty amazing stuff.

[C]

It's unbelievable. So the fans of Lord of the Rings and Hobbit, these are pinball people too? Yeah, there is a lot of crossover. A lot of people listening right now are shaking their head saying, yeah, I know all about that. I have one of the games, you.

[A]

Know, I hope so.

[C]

So, yeah, I think it's a great property. Tells a great story. Really, really wonderful characters. Some of them are not so wonderful, but they're all fleshed out pretty well. You know, what they do, what they don't do, what they like, what they don't like, how they're gonna act. And that makes. We're storytellers, basically. We're telling the story through the game. Okay, so I need a story. You know, people come to me with ideas all the time. Why don't you make this when you make that? You know, why don't I make a Coca Cola pinball machine? What's the story? You got to create a whole story and everything, and it takes longer to do that than even licensing something. So you're better off licensing great property and you have a great game.

[A]

Then you have a story to tell and you don't have to write the story yourself. Instead you just figure out how to. How to translate that story, how to put it into. Into action on a table. Yeah, it's great stuff.

[C]

Yeah. Well, I hope it's so difficult, but it's great.

[A]

Oh, sure it is. I do hope that we get to see future Middle Earth tables from you. I'm excited to see that. And in the meantime, I know now that I need to figure out if there are any of my local arcades that happen to have that Hobbit pinball game.

[C]

You can go to Pinball Map, Pinball map dot com.

[A]

There you go. All right. Well, Jack, thank you so much for joining us today. Really appreciate you. And thanks for taking your time as well.

[C]

Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. Thank you very much.

[A]

Anytime. Take care, Jack.

[B]

I think it's time to get ourselves back into this chapter discussion.

[A]

Indeed.

[B]

Alan, you want to lead us off?

[A]

I will. Not long after he spoke to Orendus of his desire to voyage again upon the great waters, saying that he was robbed of all sleep and rest. But she sat pale and silent. At length she said, I thought that you were come to speak of our wedding. I will, said Eldarion. It shall be as soon as I return, if you will wait. But seeing the grief in her face, he was moved, and a thought came to him. It shall be now, he said. It shall be before this year is done. And then I will fit out such a ship as the venturers made. Never yet a queen's house on the water. And you shall sail with me, Arundus, under the grace of the Valar, of Yavanna and of Orome, whom you love, you shall sail to lands where I shall show you such woods as you have never seen, or even now the Eldar sing, or forests wider than Numenor, free and wild since the beginning of days, where still you may hear the great horn of Orome, the Lord but Arendus wept. Nay, Eldarion, she said, I rejoice that the world yet holds such things as you tell of, But I shall never see them, for I do not desire it. To the woods of Numenor my heart is given. And alas, if for love of you I took ship, I should not return. It is beyond my strength to endure. And out of sight of land I should die. The sea hates me. And now it is revenged that I kept you from it and yet fled from you. Go, my lord, but have pity, and take not so many years as I lost before. Then Aldarian was abashed. For as he had spoken in heedless anger to his father, so now she spoke with love.

[B]

What a doofus.

[A]

Seriously, I almost interrupted myself. Then Eldarion was abashed. You think?

[B]

Nice.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The very least he could be bashed by.

[A]

Frankly, that's fair. That is fair.

[B]

Anyway, it might have seemed odd to end the last episode in the middle of a paragraph, but now you can see why. Yeah, we transition from Aldarion's conversation with his father, when he stomped out angry, to this conversation with Horrendous.

[A]

And it's not our fault that Tolkien decided to actually make that the same paragraph. Really?

[B]

No.

[A]

So trust me, I'm not faulting him for it. He's the writer, not me. Why am I not surprised that even though it's now been four years since they've been betrothed, Eldarion's first topic of conversation is not the wedding. It's not how patient Arendus has been. No, his first subject is himself. That's what he talks best about. And how he's been robbed of rest. The only cure for this rob of rest is a long sea voyage, apparently.

[B]

Oh, I'm shocked. I'm stunned. How unusual this is.

[A]

My shocked face, yes.

[B]

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Funny. Horrendous. Thought you were here to talk about the wedding. You know, the one you allegedly want me to show up to and say yes. That's what a betrothal is, after all. How she doesn't just throw a pitcher of water over him at this point and walk out, I do not know.

[A]

This was definitely a moment where she would have. Could have definitely said, we're done.

[B]

Oh, boy. And you can see the wheels turning in Eldarion's head here. I'll talk about the wedding. In fact, let's have the wedding after I get back from this trip. Nice of him.

[A]

Nice. If you'll wait, you know. Oh, yeah.

[B]

If you'll wait a little bit longer.

[A]

Yeah. It's because it's only been eight years so far. Or, no, at this point, five years. I'm sorry. Because it's a six year journey. So then he sees her face and he realizes that is not good enough. I mean, I don't know, maybe just thinking for half a second about somebody other than yourself, Aldari, and you would have realized that before you opened your mouth, but I'm expecting too much from him. So he tries another of these grand and glorious gestures, right? This is very much right up there with. Name any tree that you love and it shall stand until it dies. And bringing back this massive diamond when you're not even actually asking for a betrothal. This is a gesture. But he does intend it to be a way to placate her while kind of making himself look good. Oh, we're gonna do this right away, before this year's done.

[B]

What you can't see right now is me banging my head off my desk.

[A]

Yeah, Jordan's edited that out, thank you very much.

[B]

Oh, and after the wedding, this is. I mean, this is the Kappa for me, right? This shows just after all. All these years, Alan, you can see just how much he understands his fiance.

[A]

Oh, yeah. He knows her so.

[B]

Well, because after the wedding he's going to build a queen's house. Boat, boat, boat.

[A]

A boat for her to sail on.

[B]

Yes. You know, the woman who doesn't like the sea and has told him this.

[A]

We've got to assume that that's the thing by now she has told him. Right. I'm thinking back to that moment that we had an episode or two ago when they sailed the way from Remena to Andunier for that little festival or that little party that. That Valandil was going to throw for them. That point it said that she hid her fear and distaste. Something like that.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I can't imagine that all these years that has never, ever, ever, ever come up.

[B]

No.

[A]

And at the very least he would have noticed that she's not eager to go on boats. I mean, even if she's never said Aldarian, I don't like boats, please get the boats away from me. He could not fail to notice the fact that she's never said, I'd like to go on a sailing ship with you. I'd like to go on a trip on the ocean with you. Can you take me with you on your next journey? Like the fact that he's known her for all these years and she's never asked. That should give you a clue, even if she hasn't actively told him.

[B]

Yeah, but there's two things you said there. He couldn't fail to notice.

[A]

And yet he did.

[B]

Those are doing some real heavy lifting.

[A]

They are doing some heavy list.

[B]

This is Aldarion. That we are talking about a man who is so self focused.

[A]

Oh yeah.

[B]

So self serving and self centered and many other things beginning with self.

[A]

Yeah, Pick a thing with self. It's true.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Any adjective you want, it's there.

[B]

I mean, have they ever. Have these two ever had a decent conversation about anything?

[A]

Not if we look at the dialogue that we've written. Right, Exactly.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, okay, we don't know for certain just how plain Arendys has made it to Eldarion that she's not a fan of the ocean.

[A]

She's made it clear now. Well, or she's about to. But yeah.

[B]

Yes, but yeah. I mean, he makes great promises here. Right. To make her want to go. He promises at the sight of forests unlike anything she's ever seen. I'll take you away from all of this. You know, the this that she loves.

[A]

That she loves.

[B]

Yeah, right.

[A]

That she has told you that at least I love all that grow in this isle.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know Yes.

[B]

I love all that grow in this isle. So he now proposes her to. He proposes to pop her on a boat and sail a heck of a distance so she can go and see other trees.

[A]

Yeah. You like forests? I'll show you forests. You haven't seen nothing yet.

[B]

I mean, we're really starting to get those red flags ready to fly.

[A]

Oh, we sure are. That is true.

[B]

That flapping sound that you can hear in the background, that's the red flags in the breeze. Yeah. And he even ends with an appeal to her love for Orame. You could still hear his horn blowing in these ancient forests bigger than the island of Numenor.

[A]

Though I have to ask really, Eldarion, if you could hear the horns of Orome, maybe you'd not clear cut the entire forest, you know?

[B]

Yes. I mean, how is it going to make Horrendous feel better when we know that one of the major reasons for Aldarion going over to these forests is to cut them down?

[A]

Yeah. When we know how she responded when she started to go with him after their betrothal? She went with him to basically on his forestry jobs and had to stop because she could not bear watching him cut down and, and saw these trees.

[B]

Right. So in. On what planet did he think that this would be something that. Oh, never mind.

[A]

If we do it someplace else maybe. Yeah, no, I know.

[B]

And unsurprisingly, Horrendous responds. She's openly weeping now.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You can only imagine the grief and the loss that she feels all these years. And she, she honestly thought that the reason why he had come to talk to her was to finally, finally, finally plan the wedding. Oh no.

[A]

Well past the time where. It's where you've got to move from betrothal to wedding. Well past the time.

[B]

Well past that. But I mean, this goes back to that whole idea of her needing to defeat the sea utterly, or be utterly defeated. And I think she's getting the idea that it's not going to be the former, it's going to be the latter of those. She knows she's losing, but she can't do anything else. She's betrothed, she's bound.

[A]

Yeah, she is stuck. He's stuck too. But he doesn't seem to care.

[B]

He's only stuck in the sense that he's stuck betrothed to her. He's not stuck in the sense that he's going to do anything about that because he's going to pop off on a ship for a few years because.

[A]

He doesn't really Care whether he goes beyond betrothal. No, it's very clear that he has no actual interest in doing that. Even later, when they finally do get married, even if there's some, some joy for a bit. But here, if we've criticized her before for kind of keeping things quiet and maybe not being transparent and not being clear, we can no longer say that she is being very clear now. She speaks openly, truthfully, and it should be enough for Eldarion.

[B]

Well, it should, shouldn't it? If you have any feeling for somebody, you know, the woman you're supposed to be getting married to, the woman you're supposed to love, in theory, you would listen to. You'd think, I mean, she's happy that these places he talks about exist, but she knows that she will never experience them because her place is right here in Numenor.

[A]

Her place. One could reasonably argue that it's his place too, since he's the king's heir.

[B]

Yeah, that is true. That is true. Not that he seems to have, you know, spent most of his adult life proving that, but.

[A]

Okay, yeah.

[B]

And it's actually worse than that because she honestly believes that if she did go on that ship to sail east, she wouldn't make it back to this place that she loves because it's beyond her ability to endure. That's a lot, isn't it, that she would die.

[A]

Eldarion engages in a bit of hyperbole himself as well, coming up.

[B]

That is true, right?

[A]

He's like. He starts. He sort of uses her words internally as a thing to mock, like, oh, she thinks she's going to die. Well, I'm going to die if I had to stick around here any longer. Neither of you are going to die. I mean, I think we could be honest about that, but I don't know. I mean, Eldarion for sure isn't going to die if he stays on shore. I mean, he's. He's been on land for a while now. Would Irendus die?

[B]

Honestly? I think perhaps it does ask you to understand the word die in possibly.

[A]

A multi layered way.

[B]

Might die to herself in some way, a part of her mind wither up and die. That she could be caught in the grip of such a great depression from being away from land.

[A]

Yeah. So it's not necessarily that she's speaking of a literal physical death, separation of her hroa and fa, but a death that is in some ways just as bad, if not worse.

[B]

Spiritual, emotional, all of those things. Yeah. I mean, just think of these other words that she says the sea hates me. Now, we're going to do a digression on this. The Sea Hates Me in just a bit. Right?

[A]

We will. We will. So she even believes that because the sea hates her, this is also the sea's Revenge. Even Oohanen's Revenge, even though. Ooh. And isn't named here. You know, you think about back when she said, you know, do not name me the daughter of Oon and she is my foe. Well, now she's feeling like, oh, this is the sea's vengeance. Because all those years that you were here in Numenor. But I held back. Right. The 12 years that he complained about to his father at the end of last episode. This is the sea's revenge for those 12 years. But come on, if he's had to wait 12 years, can we talk about how comparatively short that is?

[B]

Yeah. And you know what? I'm also not entirely convinced that he had to wait 12 years, because it's not just about that. What effort did he put in those 12 years?

[A]

Yeah, none. Or at least none that we know of. I mean, very little. I shouldn't say none. He did woo her earnestly, but how long that was and how earnestly that was left up for debate.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. I mean, she may have been a little bit put off by how long it took him to go and find her when he first got back to Numenor.

[A]

Yeah. What did we figure out last week? We figured out it was almost three years.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Before he went to even look for her. Based on how long he'd been back. And yet only complaining about the 12 years.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Come on.

[B]

Yes, exactly. So of those 12 years, at least three of them, he wasn't actually wooing her because he wasn't with her.

[A]

Yeah. That's fair.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And, you know, you think about the fact that his last journey was longer than 12 years. I don't want to. I don't want to hear him complaining about 12 years. When you've been on journeys that have taken you away for longer than that.

[B]

He only complains about the length of a time when it's irritating to him. But any other time, it's like, well, this is not any length of time. This is such a blink of time. This is nothing. Why is this a problem?

[A]

Of course, because he is the standard by which all measures are made. I know. So she ends her comments here, her part of the conversation, I thought in a way that I honestly didn't expect. She ended not with a prohibition like, don't you dare go she didn't end by begging him to stay. Please, you've made me wait so long. Please don't leave. She doesn't threaten to leave him if he does go. Like, you know, if you leave now, I'm not gonna be here when you get back. She ends instead with a request to have pity on her. Please don't make me wait as long as I've had to wait before.

[B]

That's very reasonable.

[A]

That's not only reasonable, it's more than she.

[B]

Oh, yeah. It is. More than he deserves.

[A]

Much more than he deserves. And very knowing what we know of Horrendous and her sort of all or nothing approach and what we see in her in the rest of the story, it almost seems out of character, you know, like more of a sacrifice and a willingness to give than we've typically seen from her. And it's not a criticism, it's a praise that she's. It's a praise, but at the same time, a really. What are you thinking? But I get it. Like, she is gonna do everything she can in her power to make sure this doesn't completely fail.

[B]

Yes. Which is more than we can say for Aeldarion.

[A]

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. A lot more than we can say for him.

[B]

Right. Because it seems to me like she had a legal and a moral right to insist that he gets married. I mean, they're betrothed, they're bound, they're promised. Like his father reminded him.

[A]

Yeah. And like we talked about last week, if he had insisted that the wedding go forward, she would not be in a place to deny that, because she also is bound, like this needs to happen. But instead she gives him the freedom to go. She's not trying to make him feel guilty. This isn't. She's not laying on the guilt trip or anything. She's just saying, please be gone for a shorter time this time. And it does seem to get through to him. It hits him a little differently, doesn't it?

[B]

It does. He is rightly a bit embarrassed.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

A bit ashamed.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Not so much that he'd stay home and marry her, of course, but enough that he thinks maybe he'll do what she asked and come home in a shorter time.

[A]

Dear listener, he does not.

[B]

This is my stunned face.

[A]

Yeah. Though once again, he'll. He'll have excuses and reasons, of course. But we are given this comparison between the way he spoke to Maneldor. Right. How he stomped off with his tantrum. And I love this. It's not the way he spoke to Meneldur and The way he spoke to Erendis. It's the way he spoke to Meneldur and the way Erendis spoke to him. We're given this very sharp contrast, and he is experiencing this contrast and recognizing this, like, oh, I was really harsh to him, but here I'm getting kindness from you. Yeah, you don't deserve her, man. You don't deserve her.

[B]

Nice to have a bit of insight, isn't it?

[A]

I just wish he would recognize that.

[B]

Yeah. But it is a lovely bit of writing from Tolkien to have that juxtaposition, isn't it?

[A]

I just thought that was really the heedless anger. And then she spoke with love, because she loves him. Crying out loud, she loves him. This is not. There's nothing for her to gain. I mean, yes, there is power and prestige, you could say, but clearly Arendes doesn't give a dang about that, as we'll see later. She has zero cares about whatever being Queen would bring her. She simply loves this man.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

It's just all those moments where he comes back and then she thaws after a time.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because although you could argue it's not the best choice for her to make.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

She loves him utterly. And I also think that she just wants to try her absolute best. She is now betrothed to this man to make this work. And as a result, I think alongside the juxtaposition of Eldarion's bad behavior to his father, and then hearing this from Arendis, what we're getting. And I'm not sure how much of this Eldarion actually picks up on himself. This is Arendus behaving like an adult.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Whereas in that previous scene that we did last episode, Eldarion behaved like a toddler.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Storming around like a. A child that has been denied his favorite sweetie. Yeah. You know. Yes. So it is a juxtaposition of language, of attitude, of personality, of character, all of those things.

[A]

It really is.

[B]

And I am judging.

[A]

Oh, yeah. I think at this point, we are safe to judge Eldarion. And in fact, we will read soon that the population begins to judge him as well. Now, earlier we mentioned that we would do a sidebar or digression on her claim that the sea hates me. And we will. But this is a long episode and we're going to move it to the postscript. So if you want to hear us talk about a 1966 interview with Tolkien in which he spoke about Queen Beruthiel and how that conversation seems particularly relevant here, well, join the fellowship of the podcast and listen to the postscript for this episode. Or more likely, for this chunk of episodes. I haven't quite yet figured out how I'm going to be doing P5s for this particularly long story, but tune into that for more now. Way back in the day I had this brown leather wallet that I liked well enough, but one day I misplaced it and let me tell you, that panic is absolutely real. Eventually I did find it underneath the seat of my car, but not until after I'd called to cancel some credit cards. Losing your wallet really is the worst, but with the Ridge airtag attachment or the Ridge Tracker cards, in a Ridge wallet, you know precisely where your wallet is. Avoiding that panic mode now you know I've been using the Ridge Wallet and key case that they sent me earlier this year every day. I love how their modern take on the wallet holds plenty of cards, up to 12 for some of the models while taking up very little space, and how so many of them are made out of really cool materials. My carbon fiber ones are amazing, but they've got aluminum, titanium, leather. They've got 50 styles, materials and colors to choose from. They all come with a lifetime warranty. It's quite literally the last wallet you'll have to buy. Ridge wallets all have RFID blocking technology built in to keep you safe from digital pickpockets. And now you know about the Ridge airtag attachment too. They're not just about wallets though. Ridge makes pens, phone cases, premium everyday carry essentials, all with that sleek, durable design. Now, for a limited time, our listeners get 10% off at Ridge by using code PONY at checkout. Just head to ridge.com and use code PONY and you're all set. After you purchase, they'll ask you where you heard about them. Please support the Prancing Pony podcast and tell them our show sent you. Love this time of year. Proper cool evenings, holiday plans and more. Busy though. So I want my wardrobe to be simple. I want clothes that look sharp, feel good, things I'll actually wear. And for me, that's Quint's. And Quince makes great gifts too. Being in SoCal, it's never really cold, so their lightweight sweaters like their $50 Mongolian cashmere. Perfect. Their denim fits really well and wears spectacularly. I like my Quince jeans now even more than when they first sent them me. Perfect fit and the right feel. Now you know me folks. I work with brands that I like. By partnering with ethical factories and artisans, Quince eliminates the middleman. So they can deliver premium quality at half the cost of those other high end brands. Luxury quality without a luxury price tag. Give and get timeless holiday staples that last this season with quince. Go to quince.com pony for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. It's now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N C-E.com pony free shipping 365 day returns. Quince.com pony quality doesn't have to be a luxury Quince now soon we'll get back to Aldarian's endless Whinging. But before we do, I want to take a minute to thank the amazing community that has grown up without any whinging at all around this show. After all, there is a lot more talk going on at the Prancing Pony podcast than just us.

[B]

Yep, because the PPP really does have a warm and welcoming listener community. If you've got questions or you just want to talk about how much you love Middle Earth, be sure to check out our common room on Facebook and across all social media. Now on Facebook, just look for the Prancing Pony Podcast now. Yeah, there is a page, but you're going to want to the group for that great fan community.

[A]

Absolutely. Now on every social media platform besides Facebook. We're just at Prancing Pony Pod and you can find our subreddit at R Prancing Pony Pod. Be sure to check out my daily show as well. Today's Tolkien times over on YouTube and on all your favorite podcast apps. That's where you can get your daily Middle Earth fix with everything from Middle Earth Map Mondays to Word Nerd Wednesdays. Be sure to watch or [e-mail] rancing pony pod. But for now we're going to come back and see how Aldarian reacts after having been abashed.

[B]

Yes, you would hope that he would behave better, but no, he did not sail that year, but he had little peace or joy out of sight of land she will die, he said. Well, soon I shall die. If I see it longer then if we are to spend any years together, I must go alone and go soon. He made ready therefore at last for sailing in the spring, and the Venturers were glad. If none else in the isle who knew of what was done. Three ships were manned, and in the month of Virese they departed. Erendis herself set the green bow of Oyalare on the prow of the Palaran, and hid her tears until it passed out beyond the great new harbour walls. Six years and more passed away before Aldarion returned to Numenor. He found even Almarian the queen colder in welcome. And the venturers were fallen out of esteem, for men thought that he had treated Arendus ill. But indeed he was longer gone than he had purposed. For he had found the haven of Vignalonde now wholly ruined, and great seas had brought to nothing all his labours to restore it. Men near the coast were growing afraid of the Numenoreans, or were become openly hostile. And Aldarion heard rumours of some lord in Middle Earth who hated the men of the ships. Then when he would turn for home, a great wind came out of the south and he was borne far to the northward. He tarried a while at Miflond, but when his ships stood out to sea once more, they were again swept away north and driven into wastes perilous with ice. And they suffered cold. At last the sea and wind relented. But even as Aldarion looked out in longing from the prow of the Polarian and saw far off the Meneltama, his glance fell upon the green bough and he saw that it was withered.

[A]

Oh, boy, there's a lot to talk about here. I want to go back to the beginning. We start by learning that he chose not to sail that year, which, I mean, to me it just feels like she told you to go ahead and go, so just go and don't be going long, right? But so do you think there was, like, hesitation because maybe he was thinking he could stay after all? Was this out of pity for Horrendous or maybe out of guilt regarding his father? What do you think? Why did he just sail right away?

[B]

Right? I mean, it's not like he said to Horrendous, okay, well, let's get married now then, right? I mean, if he doesn't sail that year, why don't they get married immediately?

[A]

Right? I mean, that's what I'm thinking. Get married, then you can still go on your thing, but at least you're married, right? So why do you stick around for a year and not sail when she has said go ahead and go, but make it snappy? Yeah, this isn't snappy.

[B]

I don't know. Yeah, exactly. I mean, is it about him trying to make himself feel better about going or make himself look better or.

[A]

Or is he maybe genuinely trying to continue to fight the sea, calling the sea longing?

[B]

You know, because that's not in Tolkien's text at all, is it? Because what we get is this mockery out of sight of land, she will die. He said, well, soon I shall die if I see it longer. Exactly. Yeah. This is just. It's all about him, and that's the problem.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, that year in question, by the way, the. The year that he didn't sail was 862, four years after their betrothal took place.

[B]

Notice little peace or joy. But think back to when it been the most content spending time with Orendis working on growing trees and not doing anything related to sailing or venturing.

[A]

Yeah, I really feel like that little peace or joy stands in sharp contrast to how he realized this was the time in his life where he was most content.

[B]

Right.

[A]

How sad is that?

[B]

That's so sad. Yeah.

[A]

So whatever the reason that he hesitated, whether it was out of, you know, an attempt to fight the sea, longing, a way to placate horrendous, or out of pity for her or maybe just out of guilt for his fight with his dad, it. It's becoming more and more evident that remaining on land for him is as unpleasant a thought, even though he says it terribly because he just uses her words to mock her. But clearly it is as unpleasant for him to stay on land as it is for her to go to sea. I mean, the two of them don't belong in each other's worlds. So just take a lesson from Scotty and Jord and call the whole thing off.

[B]

Yeah, that would be ideal. At this point, he recalls her words about sailing, and he turns them into, as he usually does, something about himself. I mean, he really is so selfish. He does finally seem to take her into consideration long enough to recognize that, well, he needs to go now if he's going to go. I mean, there is always the don't.

[A]

Go option, but there's always the get the wedding underway option. Yeah. Yes.

[B]

But he just doesn't bother taking those options.

[A]

No. So now it's the following year. That's 863. And he gets ready to sail in the spring. It has now been five years since their betrothal. If you're keeping score at home.

[B]

The preparations are actually done quite quickly. And he sets off with three ships in the month of Virese. And that's the fourth month of the year. Corresponds to about March 23rd to April 21st in our calendars.

[A]

And that leads me to a quick correction last week. I mean, maybe it was the week before, but I think it might have been. Last week I mentioned that the Numenorean New Year began in the spring. It did not, let me be clear, that was a mistake on my part. I was thinking about the Eldar calendar, which did start in the spring, and also the new reckoning which was established by King Elessar at the beginning of the fourth Age, where the new year did begin in the spring on March 25. The system in Numenor at the time known as the King's Reckoning started the new year in Yule with a single day called Ystar to start the year. That day didn't belong to any month at all. Then there were five 30 day months, a 31 day month, a mid year day or two in a leap year, and then the second half simply mirrored that had a 31 day month followed by five 30s and then a year, then a day that didn't belong in a month ending the year that was known as Metare or last day. For more on that, of course, go to. The episode we did last year on appendix D. I think was the calendars. I think so.

[B]

So when they leave, the Venturers are pretty happy. Yeah, but no one else is. The people of Numenor, they know full well by this point that Eldarion is mistreating Arendis by leaving before they even get married or even leaving at all. Right. But wronged though she may be, she comes herself to Romenna and follows the tradition placing the Green Bough of Return, the bow of Oilare, on the prow of Aeldarion ship, which I think is very good of her, frankly.

[A]

It is big of her to do this, right? I mean, this is being the bigger person and I admire her for this. It is the right thing to do. But at the same time, it would be totally understandable if she didn't.

[B]

No, absolutely.

[A]

Especially personally. Like she could have sent somebody, you know, on behalf of her to do this. She did it herself. So fast forward six years, the text tells us, to his eventual and very tardy return. It is now the year 869 of the second age. 11 years since they were betrothed.

[B]

Oh, is that all?

[A]

Horrendous is now 98. Now I know she's 98, but that's the equivalent to about 40 years old, just to be clear.

[B]

Yeah. Which, you know, if you're wanting a family at all, that's an issue.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Tick tock, tick tock.

[B]

Lack of issue.

[A]

Oh, lack of issue.

[B]

Thank you. I'll be here all week.

[A]

That sounds like it belonged in the chapter on Dwarven reproduction, but yeah, it's only been 69 years since they first met, so. What's the rush?

[B]

Yeah. I mean, I keep going. Ugh. But the fact is. Ugh.

[A]

The fact is. Indeed.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Even the usually indulgent Queen Almarion is not thrilled with her son when he comes home.

[A]

No. You know you've done something wrong, which she's not.

[B]

Not happy when Mummy dearest is not welcoming Son dearest with open arms. Right. And not only that, he's brought his frat boys down with him.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The Venturers as a group have lost popularity among the people, specifically because everyone sees how poorly he is treating Arendis.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. Now, granted, it turns out he had good reason to be gone longer, but the thing is, he hadn't built enough goodwill for that to matter, you know?

[B]

No.

[A]

How many times has he gone and come back a lot later than he said he would come back? It doesn't matter if the reasons are valid. You said you would come back faster or she asked you to. You didn't. Really. I guess you didn't. I guess you could always hang your head on the fact that you never said you would, but.

[B]

Loophole.

[A]

I know. I mean, this is so. You know, I feel like once again, he's gone longer. And because of that, it doesn't matter how valid his reason is. The people, including Horrendous, are going to be upset that you're gone that long.

[B]

Right? Yes. It's like you said, there's not enough goodwill there for them to let it go. But speaking of reasons, let's take a look at what actually kept him.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Now, first of all, Vignolande was entirely gone. Not just damaged, not plundered by hostile men. It's gone with all his work from his previous journey, which was 8:29 to 8:43, utterly wasted.

[A]

That's just wild. I mean, wow. All of that gone and all of that time investment gone. And you're thinking, let's just do it again. I mean, maybe you should take a hint. But second, of course, the men in the area now are either afraid or openly hostile. And remember, we talked about this a couple of episodes back. This hostility is for good reason. And it's amazing that the hostility is already open. I sort of imagine that being like later in their colonial period. But it's right now, under Eldarion's reign, the men are becoming openly hostile. This is going to end up being a real problem now and into the future for Numenor, isn't it? And even for Gondor.

[B]

Yes, absolutely it is. I mean, we know why they are hostile. They're hostile because the Numenoreans, even though this is so early in their colonial activity, they're already just plundering whatever it.

[A]

Is that they want, taking all the natural resources.

[B]

Exactly. And when a bunch of people land in ships and then just destroy the woods, the forests around you, the places where you have lived for, you know, your families have been there for generations, where the wildlife have their habitats, you know, the wildlife that you would be relying on for food source and all sorts of things like that. It's gonna make you grumpy, right?

[A]

Grumpy is a good way to put it. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. But the problem, of course, for Aldarion is that if the peoples of Middle Earth are now openly hostile, that means that he can't just focus on gathering the resources or building, rebuilding Vignolande. He's now got to be worried about whether they're going to be attacked.

[A]

Yeah. So now he's got to have a military force there. He's going to have to start building fortresses, start expanding in order to protect because, you know, you build the lines further out so the civilian projects like Vignolande are not going to be threatened. These are the kinds of things that have long, long repercussions. I think about the fact that many of these people that fled would have fled into Enedwaith and would have become the people that we now know as the Dunlendings.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And look at the problems that the Dunlendings gave to Gondor. And again, it's related to this. It all comes back to this.

[B]

It is. I've actually, I'll tell you, I have often felt quite sorry for the Dunlendings and how they are portrayed. Because this is a people who have been displaced more than once.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, a bigger force comes in and displaces them. I mean, we know how well that goes down in real world events. In our primary world. In the secondary world, it's just as bad. You know, you are. You are a settled people in an area and you get pushed out by a greater force than you and you have to go elsewhere. So you become a displaced people. You become immigrants. And these are, you know, not necessarily welcomed in other places. So you find yourself another place to settle and what happens then? You get pushed out again. So, yeah, I know that in the Lord of the Rings, the Dunlendings are portrayed as being fierce and warlike and, you know, not on the side of good. But frankly, I think they have a right to be angry.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, certainly historically they have been wronged. And I do like how Tolkien sort of touches on those things a little bit in the Lord of the Rings. He doesn't touch on how they've been wronged, but he does talk about how they've been manipulated, specifically. I'm thinking about how Soderman told them that if you're captured, they're going to burn you alive and all this kind of stuff.

[B]

Stuff, yeah.

[A]

And how Aragorn makes sure that they are treated, you know, fairly, that they are not slaughtered. And it is like, you what? And, you know, they think about. They would have grown up historically, generationally, being taught that the Numenoreans and the Gondorians were terrible people because of what happened to them over these periods. And the Rohirrim, for that matter.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Because even though it was Gondor under the stewardship of Kirion, who. Who would have said, okay, guys, you can come on in and move in. The Dunlendings are not going to be thinking, well, Rohirrim, it's not really your fault. It's the fault of that guy in Minas Tirith that we'll never see. You know, they are, of course, going to see the Rohirrim as the invaders. So, like you said, they get pushed out of their lands initially by the Numenoreans and their imperial expansion, and then they're pushed out of Calenardhon by the arrival of the Rohir. No wonder.

[B]

No wonder. But that's. And it is always easier to manipulate a people in the way that Saruman does.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

When you seem to sympathize with their wrongs and then say, but if you just do this.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If you just do these things for me, then I will make sure that life is. Yes. I'll make sure that things are better for you.

[A]

Well. And Sauron manipulates them, just like, you know, Sauron manipulates them in the Second Age just like Saruman manipulates them at the end of the Third Age.

[B]

Absolutely. Yes.

[A]

We'll see that it's even to even greater effect, for that matter. Right? Now, of course, he's not manipulating them because he may not even be aware of them. But he is around, isn't he?

[B]

Yes, he is. Yes. And finally, here we get, at long last, a connection to the greater Legendarium. He'd heard, quote, rumors of some lord who hated the men of the ships.

[A]

And who might that be?

[B]

I don't know. Is it somebody who likes to call himself king? Excellent.

[A]

Tar Mairon.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yes. King Excellence. This is really the first sighting, if you will, of Sauron in this story. And we'll see him, you know, be an issue later on. The letter that he brings back from Gil Galad to his father is just incredibly important for the issue of statecraft in Middle Earth, you know, for how things are going to go. And it, in a way, defines the rest of the Second Age. But for now, we get a hint. Sauron is there.

[B]

Yeah, the shadow is here, just lurking at the edge of the text right now, at the edge of the story.

[A]

That's exactly what it's doing. And then as we'll read later in this chapter, probably in part eight or nine, Tolkien outlines the further course of the story about Vignolande, but also about this. Some lord who hated the men of ships. All Aldarien's labors were swept away. The works that he began again at Vignalonde were never completed, and the sea gnawed them. Nevertheless, he laid the foundation for the achievement of Tarminastir long years after in the first war with Sauron. And but for his works, the fleets of Numenor could not have brought their power in time to the right place as he foresaw. That's why it's sometimes so hard to completely beat Eldarion up, because he's so far sighted when it comes to this stuff.

[B]

Yes. Yeah. It's that thing, isn't it, that he's not a two dimensional villain in this story. There are things that he does that you can see. Actually this is a good decision to make. This is something that is very far sighted. He's obviously had more than one chat with certain highborn elves of the area kind of idea.

[A]

Yeah, you hang out with Gil Galad a few times and it's gonn rub off on you.

[B]

Yeah, right, exactly. So, yeah, you can't paint him as a pantomime villain because he isn't like that. No, but, but speaking to the point about the men of the region, we also read there quote already the hostility was growing and dark men out of the mountains were thrusting into Enedwaith. But in Aldarion's day, the Numenoreans did not yet desire more room. And his Venturers remained a small people, admired, but little emulated. Oh, that bit there. Desire more room. Lebensraum.

[A]

Lebensraum is exactly what I was thinking too. Man, that gave me chills. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they were fine just establishing these little presences, you know, the harbor of Vignolande. They were fine with just establishing points of contact rather than expanded parts of empire.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That's did not yet design.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

They will.

[B]

Oh yeah, I know. Rereading that line about did not yet desire more room, it put chills up my spine as well. Because, you know, this is written by a man who went through two world wars as somebody who understood the machinations behind the Second World War. And this is definitely, definitely a reference to Lebensraum.

[A]

Oh, it very clearly is.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Without putting it in German, it's as literal as it could be.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, it is. But not only all of this, right? Vignolande, hostile men, rumors of Sauron. But then he runs into bad weather again, carrying him all the way north to the Grey Havens. That's a lot. This is interesting, right, that everything seems to be against him.

[A]

Him, which maybe you should take as a sign. But you know, so you know, he hangs out there in the Grey Havens in Mithlon for a little while. He couldn't exactly send a text home. Probably waiting for better weather. I want to give him some credit that he tarried there hoping for better weather. It doesn't say why he tarried there. But when he finally left, they're driven even further north and this time into the icy wastes in the north.

[B]

Finally they are approaching home and Eldarion notices that the green bough of return has withered. And this is a thing that has never happened before. I mean, can you say portent?

[A]

Seriously, it's never happened before and it's happened and you've been gone too long. Can you figure out like the connections here? Eldarion, in the last little bit that we didn't read, a mariner states the obvious, right? The bough was covered in frost. So, Sara, what do you make of the fact that this had never happened before? I mean, this cannot have been the first time any of their ships had been in the icy cold. But was it just a combination of cold and the time in the cold, or was this the obvious sort of portent, a sign from the Valar?

[B]

Oh, it's definitely a portent. Because we've heard from the beginning of the story about how the mariners of Numenor sailed under the protection, protection of the Valar, that their ships didn't founder, that they, they weren't storm tossed. But Aldarion is, I think, testing the limits. He sure is of the grace of the Valar. He's not supposed to be away from home. He is the king's son. He is the king's heir. He is supposed to be at home. He has spent far Too long away again. He is putting his venturers, his mariners, in danger again. And yes, it could be, you know, the natural things, the cold and the fact they've been in the cold for far too long. But this is the green Bough of Return. This is the bow of Oilare. It has never done this before.

[A]

And it's an evergreen plant, Right?

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

The tree of Oil is an evergreen, so it should be able to handle the cold. And yet here it hasn't. Which does seem to suggest some sort of an intervention.

[B]

It's the first warning, isn't it?

[A]

Well, I think the broken mast from the lightning strike would have been the first warning on that other journey. But this is one too.

[B]

You could, if, especially if you were Aeldarion, you could say, well, you know, that wasn't a warning. That was just bad luck. You know, tossed around on the seas. It was bad storm, blah, blah.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

But I don't think you can get away from the idea of the green bow of Oilare becoming withered. I mean, it's just. Yeah, you might as well go metaphor.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, that's true. It's as symbolic as it gets.

[B]

Yeah, exactly, exactly.

[A]

Good point.

[B]

But whatever it is, this mariner tells Eldarion that he's glad to be home. Quote, glad am I to see the pillar. That sounds like a very mariner thing to say when coming home. The Menel karma being the first thing they would see. And of course, from quite a distance, too.

[A]

That's true. In fact, from quite a distance because there would be no curvature of the earth. So as soon as they could see it through the haze, they'd see it from further away than if it were otherwise true.

[B]

Well, let's hear a little bit more of the text, Alan.

[A]

All right. When Eldarion sought out Arendus, she looked at him keenly but did not come forward to meet him. And he stood for a while at a loss for words, as was not his wont. Sit, my lord, said Arundus. And first tell me of all your deeds. Much must you have seen and done in these long years. I almost want to read Arundus as an old woman now, like crone. Her voice, my lord, tell me of all your deeds.

[B]

My lord, what must you have seen and done in these long years?

[A]

Well done. Terrifyingly well done, actually. Yeah, I mean, obviously, you know, she's. She is old, but she's not old for Numenorean. All right, no coming back to the text and avoiding my interruptions. Then Aldarien began haltingly. And she Sat silent, listening, while he told all the tale of his trials and delays. And when he ended, she said, said, I thank the valar by whose grace you have returned at last. But I thank them also that I did not come with you, for I should have withered sooner than any green bough. Your green bough did not go into the bitter cold by will, he answered, but dismiss me now if you will. And I think that men will not blame you. Yet dare I not to hope that your love will prove stronger to endure even than fair oily. So it does prove. Indeed, said Arundus. It is not yet chilled to the death, Eldarion. Alas, how can I dismiss you when I look on you again, returning as fair as the sun after winter. Then let spring and summer now begin, he said. And let not winter return, said Arundus. Then to the joy of Meneldur. And on Marian. And also Nunez, not named in the text. Well, yeah, the wedding of the king's heir was proclaimed for the next spring. And so it came to pass.

[B]

A long expected party.

[A]

Absolutely. Yeah. The next reading is a long expected party. 1,000%.

[B]

Oh, now that was a shorter reading. Yes, but yeah, obviously this passage is a hugely important transition from Aldarion's return to the at long last setting of a date for their wedding.

[A]

Yep. Yeah.

[B]

And we begin with Aeldarion looking for Arendis. We're not told where this meeting took place. So, I mean, did Horrendous come to Romana when word came of the return of the Palaran? It would have been spotted off the coast for sure.

[A]

For sure. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Or did Aldarion have to travel to a Maria to find her? You know, I really hope it's the last one.

[A]

I hope it's the last one.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Six years is a. Is a long journey. She had to think, you know, like she did during the 14 year journey, that he's just not coming back.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I would have gone to a Marie if I were her.

[B]

But why would you wait in Romenna for six years? She doesn't like being in Romenna when.

[A]

You hate the sound and busyness of the place. Yeah, yeah, but would she have gone down to Romenna when word reached her? The Palaren is, you know, a three day sail away. We can see it. It'll be here soon. Did she come down? We don't know. And I like that ambiguity. I like that the text allows us to see this happening in the hills near her home or at the harbor near the ship. And we just don't know.

[B]

No clever Clever Tolkien.

[A]

He's so clever. He's so clever. Wherever it took place, though, Irendis, notably did not step forward to him, but waited for him to approach and speak first.

[B]

Yeah. Why make it easy for him, huh?

[A]

Exactly. And that leaves him surprisingly and atypically speechless.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, dear. What a shame. Never mind.

[A]

Moving on again. I love how Tolkie makes that obvious as was not his want. I mean, could you have said the guy talks too much without saying about himself? Yeah, yeah.

[B]

She's kind to him, asking him to sit down and tell her of his journey. Okay, I want to talk about this.

[A]

Yeah, I do, too. I'm curious. What do you think? Right.

[B]

Part of me. Okay. A significant chunk of me thinks there's a bit more to this than kindness or even curiosity.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

All right. I mean, at the end, she doesn't dismiss him. So.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. What is she. What is she actually thinking here? What is she doing? Why is she setting this scene up in this way?

[A]

Yeah. Why is she being so kind to say, sit, get comfortable?

[B]

Is it kind?

[A]

Make yourself at home.

[B]

Yeah. Is it being kind? Or is it. I'm gonna be the adult in the room, and I'm gonna make you carry this. Okay. Why should I go? My Lord, you have returned. I'm so happy. Oh, yay.

[A]

And yet she kind of does. How can I dismiss you when I look on you again? So there's a little bit of that, which is why. But, yeah, I sort of see this almost as a continuation of the courtesy and kindness that we saw come from her at the end of the last conversation that was recorded. Probably not the last conversation they had, but the last conversation recorded in the text where she says, go, Lord, but please have pity on me. Be gone for fewer years. You know, don't be gone so long.

[B]

Yeah. Oops.

[A]

Yeah. Oops, indeed. Oh, man.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Honestly, I. I think that she sets this scene because she just wants Aldarion to speak. Right. Okay, you're here now. Let's hear all about it.

[A]

I also think she's okay if he squirms.

[B]

Oh, a hundred percent.

[A]

I think. I think the way she's phrasing this question is a way to make him squirm.

[B]

Yeah. So you must have seen so many amazing things in these long years. Yeah. In these long years. Yes. Let's hear all about it then.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. And so, of course, he does tell his story, and he has to be like, wait a minute, wait a minute. Why does she want to hear my story? Like, she never wants to hear My stories. And yet she wants to hear my story. I'm not so sure I believe this. And. And I didn't catch this when I was putting together the notes, but I love the way the text says he began haltingly. Okay, I get that. Because he was nervous and she sat silent. Okay, he's more nervous while he told all the tale. No, it could have ended there. While he told all the tale. No, it doesn't. It says of his trials and delays. Yeah, he's not telling her about the whole trip. He's telling her why he's late. Yes, he's making excuses. Giving his excuses.

[B]

So the reason why I'm late is because. Well, first of all, the harbor was destroyed.

[A]

Totally gone.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. And that was a real problem. And then, you know, the people of Middle Earth, they. You know, they weren't as nice as they were.

[A]

They were shooting at me.

[B]

I mean, that was terrible. It was. Oh, I was really worried.

[A]

I was afraid I might not be able to come back. I was afraid I was gonna die and leave you stranded.

[B]

I could have died, Arendus. I could have died.

[A]

And then I hear about this lord that hates us all. I don't know who he is.

[B]

Oh. I mean, who knows what that's about? But I battled through everything Arendis to get back to you. That's the most important thing, right?

[A]

I mean, I did tarry in Miflon.

[B]

But we'll pass over that.

[A]

The weather. The weather was very cold and the wind was very much, you know, against us. We, you know, these are just sailboats. We can't just go when we want to go.

[B]

Yep. Oh, and sorry I killed your bow.

[A]

Yeah, well, oops. Yeah.

[B]

But anyway, when he's done, she expresses her thanks that he's back, but also her thanks that she didn't go with him because she would have died sooner than the Olare.

[A]

Yeah. Again, a metaphor. I mean, I don't know that she. Well, in this case, the cold might have killed her. Yeah, but what do you make of his response? I'm trying to figure out what he's trying to say here when he says, well, the bow didn't go on the journey willingly. I'm assuming he's setting that up in contrast to she, if she had gone, would have done so willingly. What does that mean?

[B]

Well, it's also the fact that he didn't intend to. To go north. He didn't intend to go into the cold. So it's not the bow's fault. Yeah, it's not the bow's fault. That it died, you know, it was. It was on the ship and we didn't meet. We didn't mean to go north.

[A]

Yeah. You know, we didn't want to go north. The wind took us where the wind took us.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Yeah. That makes sense.

[B]

Yeah. That's what I think it means, anyway. Yeah.

[A]

In a way, he's almost saying, I didn't go north by will, you know?

[B]

Well, that's exactly it. He's talking about the bow, but he's really talking about himself.

[A]

That's fair. Yeah. So absence makes the heart grow fonder, apparently, because he moves straight into do you still love me? While giving her an honorable exit opportunity. Men will not blame you. I think that men will not blame you. Actually, there's not a chance that men would blame her. I think that men will not blame you is an understanding statement.

[B]

I think so. I mean, it's the least he can offer her, really.

[A]

Dismiss me now.

[B]

It's now been 11 years since their betrothal. Right. But it's not just that. More than half of that time he spent at sea and another couple of years of it moaning about being at sea.

[A]

That is true. Yeah. Men will not blame you. Really. Eldarion, I think. I think we get the beginnings of an analogy here that I want to take a few minutes to explore this. Her love for him compared to the Oyola. Now, at first, he just uses this sort of as a tool to kind of get the picture from her. Right. It's merely his hope that unlike the bow of returning, her love will not have withered. Okay, five points for romantic style, minus 10,000 points for delaying.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Orendus continues the analogy, saying that unlike the Bough, her love is not yet chilled to the death.

[A]

Oh, yeah. That yet is carrying a lot, isn't it?

[B]

Yeah. And chilled to the death. Right. Can we be 100% clear here? Her love has been chilled to a degree, clearly.

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Just not maybe to a coma, but just not to death.

[B]

Right. Just not to absolute death. I mean, the word yet. You're right. The word yet is really important there. Yeah. I mean, how could her love not have been chilled to a degree?

[A]

Oh, I know. Six years.

[B]

Yeah. It does also seem foreboding about what's going to happen later, because it does say not yet chilled to the death. It will be chilled to the death.

[A]

Yeah. Dear reader, it will be.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Spoiler alert.

[A]

But she adds a layer to this about the sun after winter, comparing his return to the return of warm weather in the spring. Again, I just kind of get the feeling like he's such a charmer to her, like he's handsome. And because he doesn't have a lot of else going for him, let's be honest, he's not got the most winning personality. So there must be something.

[B]

Well, as Forrest Gump says, handsome is as handsome does.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because I mean, really, he's pretty. That's it.

[A]

Yeah. Pretty.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, that's it. I mean, Aldarion catches that and he says it's time for those warm weather seasons to begin.

[A]

Spring and summer.

[B]

Oh, yes. Yes. Because yay. I haven't messed this up 100%. Maybe dad won't be really annoyed at me.

[A]

Oh, can you imagine if he gets back and says, I'm back. But by the way, Irendus has rejected me. I gotta start all over.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Oh, I don't want to.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. But it's the last line of this dialogue that I want to linger on for a minute.

[A]

It.

[B]

She says, let not winter return. Okay. So it was in winter that the bow withered. Winter at sea. So, I mean, there's quite a lot she's possibly getting at here. These words. Yeah, I mean, she doesn't necessarily mean literal winter here, does she?

[A]

No, I don't.

[B]

Still talking about chilling her love to the death, isn't she?

[A]

In other words, don't risk that cold again. Not when it comes to our relationship. It has not yet been chilled to the death. But my goodness, that's on life support. And you know, if you do this again, you very seriously risk our love. Chilling to the death.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, it's a. It's a gentle warning. But I do think there is a little hint of warning in there as well as almost like a prayer of hope here.

[A]

She's like, please let not. Yeah, she's. She's really saying, please don't do this. Please don't put me in this situation again. And I also think that because it was winter at sea that was the problem. I mean, the oil on Numenor made it through the winter just fine.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So I do think there's also a little bit of her saying, please don't go to sea again.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because that's what brings the winter, ma'. Am. And plus, he's been to sea enough. He can stop now. He could be done.

[B]

You could. Yeah, and he should.

[A]

He's not. But yeah. So we end with this proclamation of the wedding to be held the following spring. And there was much rejoicing again, even though it has been but a brief 12 years since their betrothal.

[B]

A breath of time. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Listening to this podcast Smart move Being financially savvy Smart move. Another smart move having State Farm help you create a competitive price when you choose to bundle home and auto bundling. Just another way to save with a personal price plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer, availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state.

[A]

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[B]

We told you about the amazing PPP community after our earlier break. If you're a part of that community and want to enjoy something even more special, come join the Fellowship of the Podcast on Patreon. You get to be in the best discord community around, one that includes host hangouts and even live episode recordings.

[A]

And your support there is what enables me to work full time doing all the shows, the ppp, Today's Tolkien Times, Rings of Power Wrap up and my streaming show the PPP Plays. When you join. You also get episode postscripts, add free episodes, free merch and more.

[B]

And you can join the Questions after Nightfall episodes or even appear as a guest in the north wing. Go to patreon.com prancingponypod to show your support and join the Fellowship of the Podcast.

[A]

And don't forget to rate and review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And please recommend us to your friends. You can even do that directly on Spotify now. Just sharing the show with your friends. Well, thankfully we didn't make you all wait 12 years to come back for the rest of this story.

[B]

That might chill people's love to the death.

[A]

It very well might. Yeah, please don't rate the show if you've had to wait 12 years for it. Sara, would you go ahead and continue the reading with the wedding we've all.

[B]

Been waiting for the Great Wedding. Here we go. In the 800th and 70th year of the Second Age, Aldarion and Arendis were wedded in Armenelos. And in every house there was music. Music. And in all the streets men and women sang. And afterwards the king's heir and his bride rode at their leisure through all the isle until at midsummer they came to Andunie, where the last feast was prepared by Valandil, its lord. And all the people of the Westlands were gathered there for love of Arendys and pride that a queen of Numenor should come from among them. In the morning before the feast, Aldarion gazed out from the window of the bedchamber which looked west over sea. See, Arendys. He cried. There is a ship speeding to Haven. And it is no ship of Numenor but one such as neither you nor I shall ever set foot upon, even if we would. Then Arendis looked forth and she saw a tall white ship with white birds turning in the sunlight all about it. And its sails glimmered with silver as with foam at the stem it rowed towards the harbour. Thus the Eldar graced the wedding of Arendith for love of the people of the Westlands who were closest in their friendship. Their ship was laden with flowers for the adornment of the feast, so that all that sat there when evening was come were crowned with Eleanor and sweet Lissuin, whose fragrance brings heart's ease. Minstrels. They brought also singers who remembered songs of elves and men in the days of Nargothrond and Gondolin long ago. And many of the Eldar, high and fair, were seated among men at the tables. But the people of Andunie, looking upon the blissful company, said that none were more fair than Arendis. And they said that her eyes were as bright as were the eyes of Morwen, Elethwen of old, or even as those of Avalonne.

[A]

So we begin this section with another time stamp. These are so helpful when they come along. This is second age 870, also known as 70 years after they first met. 50 years since he brought her that diamond. And 12 years since they were betrothed. It's also the year in which Arendus turns 99.

[B]

Can I just say. Ugh. Again. Oh, boy.

[A]

Part one, part two. We've got our titles for 10 episodes.

[B]

Part one, part two.

[A]

Yeah. The Return.

[B]

Anyway, so they are finally wedded in the capital of Armenelos. And the country was partying like wild. Every house filled with music, every street filled with singing. It's a big party.

[A]

Yeah. And they're probably singing stuff like, you know, it's finally Happened. Like, what took you so long?

[B]

Yes. What's that? Etta James song. At last.

[A]

Oh, perfect choice for this one, I think. So now they honeymoon on the island, taking their sweet time traveling by land to be clear across to Andunier for the last celebratory feast held by the first Lord of Andunier, Valandil, who we would both like to say should be king now. But that's another story.

[B]

Silmaria and Somaria. Okay, moving on. And all the people of Arendus's home region are there. I mean, after all, it's their girl who's getting married finally, and who will be the next Queen of Numenor, which is a big deal for them.

[A]

It is a big deal. Absolutely.

[B]

Yeah. But the morning before the feast, Aeldarion looks out the window and he spots an Elven ship sailing their way.

[A]

Yep. And Aldarion says something interesting when he spots it, such as, neither you nor I shall ever set foot upon, even if we would. That last bit is interesting, and I want to think through, or talk through that a bit. Is he saying that they'd be forbidden to even step onto an Elven ship, or just these Elven ships, since they make their way back to a place that is forbidden to Numenoreans?

[B]

Well, it's definitely got to do with where this ship has come from.

[A]

Yeah, the Valar. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I suspect that the ships that come out of the west are going to look different and be different. The ships that might be built by Gil Galad et al. On Middle Earth.

[A]

Ciridan. Right, the ship.

[B]

Yeah. These. I mean, these are not just Elven ships. These are perfect Elven ships out of the West.

[A]

You know, Teleran ships.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

You know. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, I don't know if it would be forbidden for a mortal to set foot on an Elven ship, because we know later on in the Third Age that actually mortals do set foot.

[A]

Yeah. Galadriel says here, have some boats.

[B]

Yes. Yeah. Get on board. Here we go. But I think it's because of that. I think it's because of where this boat comes from. It's come out of the West. It will return to the west. It's a. It's a Teleri ship. Right.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. I mean, and maybe I'm thinking of it too literally here, you know, he says, neither you nor I shall ever set foot upon. I mean, I. I know he's using that phrase, but is he really saying we'd never be able to journey on these because we're not allowed to? Go where these ships go, or is he literally saying, I wouldn't even be able to, you know, look under deck. You know, I wouldn't. I wouldn't be welcome on the ship. I would be forbidden from stepping foot on it? I don't know. I think you're right, though. Either way, it's gonna have something to do with the nature of who makes the ship and, you know, where it sails to and from.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, you'd think he'd possibly have set foot in the ship built by Cirdan in the Grey Havens.

[A]

Yeah, he has to, right? I mean, Cirdan's been teaching him all about shipbuilding and.

[B]

Right, yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, he's learned so much of that from Cirdan that it seems really unlikely that he's never had the opportunity to, you know, set foot on board.

[A]

Yeah. So it's got to be these ships, and for that reason, that makes sense. So, from Orenda's perspective, we get this description of the aesthetic nature of the ship, and I really like this because Eldarion's view was about the speed and about the fact that it's forbidden. Right. But instead we get from her a description of what it looks like. It's a tall, white ship, and I thought this was interesting. Surrounded by white birds in the sunlight. That brings me all the way back to that Rings of Power episode in season one. I may have had a lot of negative things to say at times. The one where Galadriel was heading back and says, nah, peace out. I'm gonna swim the thousands of miles back to. Yes, topical Patriot. But I did that. This is. I think this was a reference to that. The white birds in the sunlight.

[B]

Yes. That would not surprise me at all. And I think that it's really interesting here that Aldarion focuses on one thing, Arendis focuses on something else.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's another indication of just how different they are.

[A]

Right, we'll get another example of that in a little bit.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the sails are glimmering with silver. The prow is riding the foam as it sails towards Andunier.

[A]

Must be beautiful.

[B]

Oh, it must be stunning to look at. We're then told explicitly that the elves have come out of the love they bear towards the people of Arendus's home region of the Westlands. So they haven't come from Aldarion?

[A]

No. Are you guest of the groom or the bride? The bride.

[B]

The bride.

[A]

The bride. There is a lengthy footnote here that we will explore before we move on to the next segment. But we'll do it at the end of this one. For now, let's get back to this elven sh.

[B]

Ship, right, because these are the traveling florists for this fries. They're bringing all the pretty centerpieces and the whatever else, the boutonnieres, all that sort of thing.

[A]

I was hoping you'd know those words because I didn't know what to throw in there.

[B]

Two flowers are specifically identified among others, one would guess.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

First of all, we have Eleanor, which you would remember from Lorian in the Lord of the Rings, Haldir, announcing their arrival at Caden Amroth. Where ever bloom the winter flowers in the unfading grass, the yellow Eleanor and the pale nifradel.

[A]

It's mentioned a few other times. And of course Sam names his daughter after the small golden star shaped flower. And we named our daughter after Sam's daughter. And then there's Liswine, a flower that we don't encounter anywhere else in the legendarium. The name though, is clearly related to the quenua word lyse, meaning sweet. And though we don't see the flower, we get that element lyse in the namaria, in the line mi oromarde lisa miro vorva, which is of the sweet mead in lofty halls. And this one actually seems to have a value beyond just a lovely smell or a pretty flower. This one's actually said to have a medicinal benefit, a fragrance that brings heart's ease.

[B]

That does sound lovely, doesn't it? It's just occurred to me, me, I wonder what you think of this. Eleanor is a winter flower.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Oh, we've just had a conversation about winter.

[A]

That is interesting. I wonder though, if it's only winter in Middle Earth, you know what I mean? Like, because Lothlorien is different in the way. In the way plants grow and the way the seasons pass. I mean, heck, even the mallorn trees act a little out of sync in that regard. Right. They. They shed their leaves at a totally different time. You know, they don't do the typical fall and spring routine. So I don't know. But yeah, if that is indeed a winter flower. And of course, Nifrodil is not mentioned as a flower being brought over by these elves. That's. That was Haldir talking about Keran Amroth. So if Eleanor is a winter flower. Yeah. That conversation about let not winter come against.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

It certainly brings it in relief, if nothing. It brings it into some stark relief, if nothing else.

[B]

Yeah. I don't know if there's a there. There. But it just suddenly struck me as.

[A]

Well, that's what we do. That's what we talk about. Speculations.

[B]

Speculations.

[A]

You know, connections, digressions, all of that.

[B]

Indeed. The Elves don't just bring the flowers, though, they also bring the entertainment.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Minstrels whose memories went back to songs in the days of Nargothrond. Finrod's old haunt, which, of course, fell in first age 495. And gondolin, which was the last of the Elven strongholds in Beleriand which fell in first age 511. So we're only talking about a thousand years or so. I mean, what's that?

[A]

That's a blink of an eye. To the Elves, I mean, Even Legolas says 500 years, that's nothing. Nothing. You know.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. So to the elves, a thousand years ago. I mean, that's yesterday. And, you know, you could. You could balance this against horrendous experience.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, she's definitely being patient. Like, she's an elf in terms of her lifespan and she's not. So not only do the Elves bring the flowers and the entertainment they bring their own glorious selves. High and fair, as one would expect. Expect. But as beautiful as the Elves are, the men and women of the Westlands deemed that Arrendus was more fair than any of them.

[B]

That's. That's quite the accolade, isn't it?

[A]

Yeah, that really, really is.

[B]

Yeah. Now that's lofty company. And immediately brings to mind, well, the very person that's mentioned in the text.

[A]

Yes, right.

[B]

Morwin Ellisware.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I thought that was really interesting that we made that comparison between Horrendous and Morwen early on and here we're given an explicit one in the text about her beauty.

[B]

Right. We weren't told explicitly before about the connection between her and Morain. We just knew that they were of the same house. They had the same kind of style of beauty. The gray eyes, the dark hair. They're related now it's being made explicit, isn't it?

[A]

It. It's wild because, you know, if I'm not mistaken, she was described as being like the fairest of mortal women.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Morwen. Morwin.

[B]

Morwyn. Yes.

[A]

So to compare her to Morwen and then to remind us that she is, in fact, related, that's just really. I love that.

[B]

So do I. I mean, Arendus is descended from Morwen's aunt Beleth, who was sister to Baragund.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So actually, there is a really quite, quite close familial Connection in terms of, you know, the family tree. She's right there in that line.

[A]

Yeah, she is.

[B]

And her beauty, specifically her bright eyes, are described as being even as bright as those Avalon. So it's not just about Morwen, who's a mortal woman. We're actually getting this description of her eyes being so beautiful, they remind you of. Of Avalone, which, I mean, a harbour doesn't have eyes, but the city has been described as white shining with lamplit keys. And I think this just gives us this real sense of how glorious her eyes are.

[A]

Hmm. Yeah. I mean, there's a beauty here. No wonder Eldarion, at least, doesn't want to completely lose her. He's in no rush to do the thing he's supposed to do do. But he doesn't just cast her aside. There's something that keeps him interested enough to earnestly woo her, keeps him saying things like, can I dare believe that your love might have survived? You know, I mean, there's some indication that there's a level of appreciation for her beauty, if nothing else, and that's not enough for a marriage. But, you know, it is interesting and a reminder of just how gorgeous she. She must be with those beautiful eyes. Bright eyes, as bright as those of Avalon. What a sight.

[B]

Yes. I mean, it is glorious. But I do wonder if there's just hidden in the text a little touch of warning about Arendis with this very specific connection to Morwen.

[A]

Yes. Oh, absolutely. I think so. I mean, we talked about that before. I mean, it's. She's. There's a. Coldness is the wrong word. I mean, there is a coldness in Morwen.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

The thing is that with Arrendis, we don't see it yet, but it is there.

[B]

It's there and it will come out.

[A]

It will come out. It will very much come out. It's just that we haven't seen it yet and it's. Yeah, it's a little foreboding for sure. Right, so earlier we mentioned that long footnote connected to the love that the Eldar held for the people of the Westlands. It's a footnote that explains one of the big cultural differences between the region of the Westlands and the rest of Numenor, and that is that the men there continue to speak in Sindarin, whereas the Adonaic tongue was used by everybody else. And for a deep dive into that footnote, go ahead and tune into the postscript.

[B]

That should be a great discussion in the postscript. Alan, finish off our readings for today.

[A]

All right. Many gifts the Eldar brought also to Aldarion. They gave a sapling tree. Tree whose bark was snow white and its stem straight, strong and pliant, as it were of steel. But it was not yet in leaf. I thank you, said Eldarion to the elves. The wood of such a tree must be precious indeed. Maybe we know not, said they. None has ever been hewn. It bears cool leaves in summer and flowers in winter. It is for this that we prize it. To Arundus they gave a pair of birds, grey, with golden beaks and feet. They sang sweetly, one to another, with many cadences never repeated through a long thrill of song. But if one were separated from the other at once they flew together, and they would not sing apart. How shall I keep them? Said Arindus. Let them fly and be free, answered the elder. For we have spoken to them and named you, and they will stay wherever you dwell. They mate for their life, and that is long. Maybe there will be many such birds to sing in the gardens of your children. That night Arundis awoke, and a sweet fragrance came through the lattice. But the night was light, for the full moon was westering. Then, leaving their beds, Earendus looked out and saw all the land sleeping in silver. But the two birds sat side by side upon her sill. When the feasting was ended, Eldarion and Arendus went for a while to her home, and the birds again perched upon the sill of her window. At length they bade Bedgar and Nuneth farewell, and they rode back at last to Armelos. For there, by the king's wish, his heir would dwell. And a house was prepared for them amidst a garden of trees. There the elven tree was planted, and the elven birds sang in its boughs.

[B]

So we're told that the Eldar brought many gifts, but this reading includes mention of only two. But they are two really significant gifts that will each reappear and that each carry great meaning. King so the first is the gift they gave to Aldarion. Son of trees, supposedly a white sapling of incredible strength. Straight stemmed, as it were, of steel.

[A]

And his very first thought. Yeah, yeah, his very first thought. And he's sort of telling on himself here. Oh, the wood of this tree must be precious. Not the tree. But the product of the tree has value. He's thinking of what this could be be used for.

[B]

This is so telling.

[A]

It is, isn't it?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

It reveals everything it does.

[B]

He cannot appreciate the natural beauty of.

[A]

The tree for a tree, for its own self.

[B]

Right, right. He can only think of how he might put it to use. And it just says so much about him, about his priorities. And also, of course, just how different he is to Horrendous, who would appreciate it as a tree at a beautiful tree.

[A]

Yeah. All such trees as grow in this aisle, I love. Right. She. It's the trees for the sake of the trees.

[B]

Right.

[A]

For him, it's all about what can be done with it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It comes back to that conversation from a couple of weeks ago where maybe it was three weeks ago now, I can't recall where they were going back and forth. And it was actually, I think, that very conversation about I love all that grow in this eye, while he's trying to tell her that, you know, we've got to use these things. We can't keep them in horde, we can't lock them in horde. And she's trying to explain, like, they have a value of their own even now in the form that they are. Like, we're not supposed to just barter for better and more. Right.

[B]

He just doesn't get it.

[A]

He doesn't get it. No. That's really, really tragic. Really tragic.

[B]

Well, it is, actually. And yes, on the one hand, I can understand having a pragmatic streak when you are, you know, going to be king and all that kind of thing, but to be seemingly utterly unable to appreciate the beauty of a living thing just for what it is. Yeah, I think that really is tragic. And the elves, who I can only imagine giving him quite the side eye, well, they're utterly stymied by this question. Maybe, but we wouldn't know because we've never cut one.

[A]

Why would we do that when the tree is prized because of what it provides, when it's living? Yeah.

[B]

I mean, you can almost imagine them thinking, should we just take this gift back? Wouldn't that be good to remove all.

[A]

Sharp objects from his presence?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we'll see this tree again in the future. But just so you know, it does not appear to be the White tree, Nimlo. That was a scion of Celeborn, of Tol Erasea. So this appears to be just a white tree. It does get a name. But this isn't Nimloth.

[A]

Correct?

[C]

Correct.

[A]

Now let's move on to the gift that the Elves give to Orendis. It's a pair of gray birds with golden beaks and feet. Now, I am not a bird person, so any birder out there that can suggest a possible real world comparison, please, please send that in these Birds sing to each other in what appears to be long, complex melodies, cadences never repeated. I love that line. But they would only sing together on their own. Separated, they are silent. Metaphor.

[B]

Oh, yes, exactly. Do you think there's some symbolism buried in there, Alan, somewhere? Maybe. Maybe just a bit.

[A]

Maybe. Do the elves are the elves themselves. I wonder how aware they are from their journeys to and from Andunier, which would have taken place off stage, so to speak. Right. Valandil might have been able to fill them in. I wonder how much they know of this.

[B]

I don't know. I mean, this is not something that Tolkien ever puts into the text, but this is either a gift with another side eye or this is genuinely a beautiful wedding gift.

[A]

Oh, it's beautiful.

[B]

Meant to just symbolize how you're supposed to have this togetherness. And isn't this great? So you either read this with a rather cynical eye, which, you know, I have occasionally done, but in this case. Yeah, I actually don't think it is a cynically pointed. You better pay attention to this. I think this is just a really beautiful wedding gift that is supposed to be symbolic, just not pointed.

[A]

Yeah, I think that's a very good point. It's. No pun intended. It is not, you know, knock, knock. Make sure you. You catch this reference. This is just, you know, you're gonna. You're married. You should have a gift that represents this, that shows this unification, this teamwork, this, this, these, this togetherness.

[B]

Right, yes. Look at what will be produced if you are together, if you are singing in harmony. But should anything happen, then silence. Yeah. Oh, boy. Now Arendis does wonder how she's going to keep this lovely gift.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But before you think she was asking for a cage, let's take a quick sidebar to the Nature of Middle Earth, Part 3, Chapter 13 of the Land and Beasts of Numenor.

[A]

This is really interesting. So there we read that coastal birds were very numerous, and even though they were a little less in number, inland birds were still nonetheless abundant.

[B]

The text tells us that smaller songbirds with fair voices abounded in the fields, in the reedy meres and in the woods. Many were little different from those of the lands from which the Edain came. But the birds of finch kind were more varied and numerous and sweet avoid voiced. There were some of small size, all white, some all gray, and others all golden, that sang with great joy in long thrilling cadences through the spring and early summer. They had little fear of the edain who loved them.

[A]

I love that. I also think that you Know, he's, he's this phrase about the long, thrilling cadences sort of carried through. Right here we get the, the cadences never repeated through long thrill of songs. Song. It's. It's linguistically very similar to what was, you know, essentially an unpublished writing. Now, of course, these birds are not native to Numenor. That is the birds being given as a wedding gift. So these don't quite count with, you know, the, the passage I, I had you read there about the songbirds native to Numenor. These, of course, have been brought here by the Eldar. But it's this next bit in that, that of the land and beasts of Numenor that speaks to what Arendus is undoubtedly not thinking. Thinking. The caging of songbirds was thought an unkind deed, nor was it necessary, for those that were tame, that is, who attached themselves of free will to a homestead would for generations dwell near the same house, singing upon its roof or on the sills, or even in the solmar or chambers of those that welcomed them.

[B]

So she's given some advice on how to ensure they stick around, do nothing at all. Let them fly. The Elves have, because, oh, I knew something was coming. Yes, moving on. So the elves have, because this is what they do, spoken to the birds and named Arendis, so they will stay wherever she is, pleasing. Some more free bird.

[A]

Now, the more I think about it, the more freebird is like Aldarian's theme song. I'm as free as a bird now. And this bird. You cannot change.

[B]

My eyes are rolling again.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, but no, these are. These are free birds, but they're not free bird. Let's be clear. All right. In a rather on the nose point again, I don't think this is being pointed. I think it's something that we, as the readers, it might be pointed to us to note. But it's not like the Elves are going, you know, knock, knock. The Elves tell her these birds mate for life and that it's a long life, rather like the Numenoreans. And they even suggest there will be offspring from these birds and that there will be more birds to sing in their children's gardens.

[B]

Oh, if only that were so.

[A]

I know. It's like the future that cannot be. That will not be. It's. It's heartbreaking. Oh, man. Then Orendus wakes up in the middle of the night, the full moon is setting, and what a sight. I mean, this must be glorious. The land sleeping in silver. Once again, Tolkien. Perfect word choice.

[B]

Prose is just delicious, isn't it.

[A]

I love that alliteration. Everything about that is perfect. And then of course, we get the pair of songbirds right there as if they belong to her. Because of course they do.

[B]

Because they essentially do. Yeah. Now, eventually, the party ends and the happy couple head up to Emerie and the white house that Minelda had built for her as a betrothal gift 12 years ago. Yeah, I did. I did put a little emphasis on that because. 12 years ago. Yeah. And the birds follow her there as well because they will go wherever she is.

[A]

That's right. So when they leave and head back to our Menelaus, guess what?

[B]

What?

[A]

The bird's follower there too. This time, though, they get to do their singing instead of on the sill in the boughs of the tree. The white elven tree that was given to Aldarien, which had been planted there. That brings all the symbolism together even more richly.

[B]

Much symbolism.

[A]

I mean, you've got his world of trees, but not quite in the way he sees them. He sees trees as. As timber, as. As finished product. This is like. As it should be.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You know, this is the ideal. And if they just pay attention to that, you know.

[B]

Oh, if only. But don't hold your breath.

[A]

No, if you do, don't hold it for 12 years.

[B]

No, please don't do that. Quick disclaimer. Alan and I are not responsible. Do not try this at home.

[A]

Yeah, please. Our liability insurance policy is not going to cover that. And by that I mean the one we don't have. So there by the king's wish his barkeep would dwell and an inn was prepared for them Amidst a garden of trees There the mailbag was planted and Bob and Nob sang nearby.

[B]

Oh, boy.

[A]

Sorrow, what does Barliman have for us tonight?

[B]

Well, I hope it's not a song for a start.

[A]

Oh, good heavens. Bartiman singing Freebird.

[B]

I'm sorry, I'm just getting both a visual and an audio going in my head now and I need to put a stop to that. All right, so the question. Oh, no, he's singing again. It's okay. It's fine. It's nearly over. It's all right.

[A]

I can't go on much longer. All right, except Freebird's like a 12 minute song.

[B]

Oh. So it could go on quite a bit longer. All right, well, you go and sing off in a corner somewhere and I'll. All right. I'll ask this question instead, Charlotte.

[A]

All right, Please do.

[B]

So, William from Missouri has a great question I think is going to make you think hard. In what ways does the tale of Aldarion and Arendys explore the conflict or perhaps the tension between tradition and progress in Numenorean society? That should get your thought juices flowing, if you'll pardon that rather disturbing visual.

[A]

Yeah, I will pardon that, only because I'm going to ignore it. Not a visual I need. Not after some of the other visuals we had in this episode. Tradition and Progress. It is interesting, isn't it? Because, you know, you look back at what Aldarian's almost driving force is.

[B]

He is Mr. Progress.

[A]

It is Mr. Progress. You know, it is the future of Numenor. It is. You know, I'm gonna. There are gonna be more trees here than when I take over the place. I am going to expand onto the coast of Middle Earth. I'm going to take my wood from there so that we can restore the forests here. Don't want to put a thing, you know, lock it up in Horde. We've got to use it.

[B]

But there is a tension there, isn't there? Because the traditional ways of Numenor have not served them ill. They have gone out upon the seas. They have done things like that. They have had careful husbandry of the land. All those sort of things have done them well. On the other hand, Eldarion is not entirely wrong about some progress that he's pushing. Because of his progress, he will be in a position to lend aid to the elves when they need it.

[A]

He'll put Numenor in a position to be a global power when the elves need them to be a global power. Literally saving the world.

[B]

Yes, exactly. But the tension is always there between those who would like things to stay the same, like Tom and Elder, for example, and those who are turning their backs on tradition and pushing progress. For progress's sake.

[A]

For progress's sake. And I think that's the important part, because Eldarion really does have this so locked in as a mindset. He's. He's not looking at the consequences. He's not looking. Certainly not in the short term. And I don't think he cares about the short term. He's thinking numenor 100 years from now, numenor 500 years from now. You know, where are we going to be as a nation long after my kingship is complete? Yeah. This really is a sort of an encapsulated version of that argument, because Horrendous is all about tradition. I don't want any of the trees cut down.

[B]

Right. I don't want you sailing off to Middle Earth and doing this, that and the other, you know, and we don't want colonialism. I mean, colonialism could be couched in Eldarion's terms as being progress. Right? The expansion of Numenorean power.

[A]

They did not yet want more room to live.

[B]

Not yet. Exactly. Yes. But of course, this is the slippery slope down which Numenor will eventually to torture the metaphor sink.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

I know. That was really egregious, but I'm making no apologies.

[A]

No, you know what if I sang? The least you can do is be egregious with your. Your metaphors.

[B]

Yeah, okay, fair, actually, because you really don't want me to sing well and.

[A]

You don't want me to get egregious with my metaphors, so.

[B]

So really, we've got the balance, right?

[A]

I think we did. I think we did.

[B]

Unlike the conflict between tradition and progress in Numenoreans as well, sir.

[A]

I know, right? Yeah. That's good stuff. That was a really good question, folks. Thank you for joining us for another episode of the Prancing Pony Podcast. Please come back next week when Ankala May enters the stage, only for Aldarian to leave it again.

[B]

Ugh, this is my shocked face. Yeah, surprised, I tell you.

[A]

Oh, no, he left again.

[B]

Anyway, Alan and I want to thank the members of Team PPP who are not disappearing on a voyage for the next 16 years.

[A]

That's a good thing.

[B]

We hope. Editor Jordan Reynolds Barleyman Becca Davis. Social media manager Casey Hilsey Event and Patreon community coordinator Katie McKenna, graphic artist Megan Collins, Video editor Jonathan Le Sense helping us get episodes up on YouTube and website Guru Phil Dean.

[A]

And please take a minute to check out the prancingponypodcast.com that's where you'll find show notes, outtakes, and Prancing Pony ponderings. We're still in the midst of changing the vendors for our merch, but our online storefront should be back soon. Maybe by the time this episode drops, you'll be able to get all sorts of cool PPP merch there, including all the amazing chapter art that Megan's been doing for us for three plus seasons.

[B]

Now, we're all about the books here at the Prancing Pony Podcast, so be sure to also visit our library page. And we try to make sure that any book we've mentioned on the show is linked there for you to purchase. We do get a small amount of compensation when you make your purchase, so thank you for that.

[A]

Indeed. Thank you. We also want to thank our patrons at the Kir Dan's contribution tier. I'll start with Demay in Alaska, Chad in Texas, Lance in New Jersey, Joseph in Michigan, Kathy from North Carolina, Brian in the uk, Jerry from Washington, Irwin from the Netherlands, Ben in Minnesota, Anthony in Texas, Zaksu in Illinois, Joshua in Massachusetts, Lucy in Texas, Erica in Texas, Village, Vivian in California, and James in Massachusetts.

[B]

There's also Ann in Kentucky, Sean in New Jersey, Mason in California, Maureen from Massachusetts, Olivia in London, Robert in Arizona, Nick in Wisconsin, Lewis in South Carolina, Thomas in Germany, Craig in California, Kevin in Massachusetts, Bruce in California, Joe in Maryland, Scott in California, Jeffrey in Michigan, and Paul in Colorado. Thank you all so very much for your support indeed.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

Now make sure you don't miss any episodes of the Prancing Pony Podcast. Subscribe now through Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or your favorite podcast app.

[A]

And one last thing. As always, don't forget to send your thoughts, comments, and most of all, your Eleanor Lee Sween Minstrels and gifts to Barliman at the prancing pony podcast.com now.

[B]

Bar Barleyman does have a lot of mail to sort through though, so we'll try to get to you just as soon as we're able.

[A]

As always though, this has been far too short a time to spend amongst such excellent and admirable listeners. But until next time, however.

[B]

Farewell folks.

[A]

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[A]

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