401 – She’s Got a Way

Summary

The Prancing Pony Podcast
Episode 401: "She’s Got a Way"
Date: February 22, 2026
Hosts: Alan Sisto & James Tauber

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Alan Sisto and new co-host James Tauber launch a six-part deep dive into one of the thorniest topics in Tolkien’s legendarium: the convoluted, ever-changing history of Galadriel and Celeborn. Christopher Tolkien famously called this “one of the most problematic” areas in Middle-earth’s lore, as Tolkien constantly revised Galadriel’s story, making it a labyrinth of conflicting narratives. Alan and James bring their trademark blend of scholarship, humor, and accessible banter to map out the shifting sands of this history, focusing in this first installment on Christopher Tolkien’s introduction to “The History of Galadriel and Celeborn” in Unfinished Tales, unpacking layers of textual evidence, what inspired the changes, and why Tolkien struggled to settle on Galadriel’s story right up to his final days.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Nature of the Problem ([02:24])

• Christopher Tolkien’s Dilemma: Christopher found Galadriel and Celeborn’s history to be uniquely messy, beset with “severe inconsistencies embedded in the traditions.”
  • “No part of the history of Middle Earth [is] more full of problems than the story of Galadriel and Celeborn.” (Alan quoting Christopher, [14:34])
• Source texts range from narrative outlines, to linguistic essays, to outlines arising from Tolkien’s attempts to justify elvish names and terms.
• Key Insight: Many tales in the legendarium are linguistic in origin, evolving to explain names or languages; Galadriel’s was no exception.

2. Galadriel’s Late Addition ([07:32])

• Galadriel did not exist in Tolkien’s mythos before The Lord of the Rings; she was invented during its writing and retroactively woven into earlier ages.
  • “She’s such an important figure ... then to realize that this was not something that existed prior ... It was during the writing of Lord of the Rings that Tolkien conceived of this character ... who would be described as the greatest of Elven women.” (James, [07:45])
• This required substantial retconning of the First and Second Ages.

3. Tolkien’s Continual Revisions ([09:14]; [11:08]; [11:30])

• Tolkien never settled on Galadriel’s story, reworking her role and importance throughout his life.
  • “He just kept constantly changing it. It was in almost a fluid state.” (Alan, [16:08])
• Her stature and significance kept increasing, requiring major narrative adjustments and triggering knock-on changes (including Celeborn’s background).

4. Multiple Versions – Key Contradictions ([12:09]; [21:20])

• Version 1: Galadriel goes east alone at the end of the First Age, meets Celeborn (a Nandorin elf) in Lórien – [17:42].
  • Supported by dialogue in Fellowship of the Ring.
• Version 2: Celeborn is a Sindar of Beleriand; he meets and marries Galadriel in Lindon, and together they move to Eregion – [18:09]-[21:20].
• Version 3 (Later): Celeborn is a Telerin prince in Aman; he and Galadriel plan to leave Valinor together even before Feanor’s revolt [66:54].
  • In this late version, Galadriel doesn’t join the Rebellion but leaves for her own reasons.

5. The Question of the Ban ([31:05]; [32:15]; [33:15])

• Different accounts conflict on whether Galadriel was under a ban from returning to Aman, or if she refused it out of pride.
  • “At the end of the Elder Days ... she refused the pardon of the Valar . . . It was not until ... all that she had desired in her youth came to her hand ... that her wisdom was full grown, and she rejected it, and passing the last test, departed from Middle Earth forever.” (Alan reading from The Shibboleth of Fëanor, [51:05])
• The “test” Galadriel passes is mutable: sometimes a self-test, elsewhere a test imposed by the Valar.

6. Galadriel’s Character Development ([44:52]; [57:19])

• Galadriel is continually elevated in stature, from “greatest of Elven women” to “greatest of the Noldor, except Feanor maybe” to “greatest of the Eldar of Valinor.”
  • “Great inflation, anyone?” (James, [47:30])
• Her motivations evolve:
  • Early: Dominion—a desire to rule, echoing Sauron’s temptations.
  • Later: Generosity and wisdom—becoming a benefactor of Elves and Men.
• The struggle is philosophical: how to balance her ambition and pride with her ultimate nobility.

7. Celeborn: Trophy Husband? ([97:21])

• Listener mail ponders if Celeborn is “just a trophy husband.”
  • The hosts conclude he is given reasonable status and wisdom by Tolkien, but will always be “in her shadow” given Galadriel’s outsized mythic role.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

“No part of the history of Middle Earth [is] more full of problems than the story of Galadriel and Celeborn.”
— Alan Sisto, quoting Christopher Tolkien ([14:34])

“She’s such an important figure in the books … And then to realize that this was not something that existed prior. … It was during the writing of Lord of the Rings that Tolkien conceived this character.”
— James Tauber ([07:45])

“It is almost like it’s the history of Middle-earth history.”
— Alan Sisto ([07:11])

“Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor, except Feanor maybe, though she was wiser than he…”
— Alan Sisto, reading Tolkien ([41:49])

“Great inflation, anyone?”
— James Tauber, referencing the increasing superlatives of Galadriel’s status ([47:30])

“Her pride was unwilling to return a defeated suppliant for a pardon. But now she burned with desire to follow Feanor … and to thwart him in all ways she could.”
— Alan Sisto, reading Tolkien ([51:05])

“Was Celeborn anything more than a trophy husband for Galadriel?”
— Listener mail from Patricia ([97:21])
— Alan Sisto’s answer: “He’s always going to be second fiddle and going to be in her shadow. … I don’t think that makes him a trophy husband.”

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• [02:24] – Introduction to series and why Galadriel/Celeborn history is so complex.
• [03:18] – Overview of the Unfinished Tales chapter contents.
• [06:43] – The two sorts of “history” in this chapter: in-world and compositional.
• [07:32] – Galadriel’s late invention and retroactive importance.
• [11:08] – How Tolkien kept expanding and refashioning Galadriel.
• [12:09] – Celeborn’s mutable status and background.
• [17:42] – Multiple conceptual versions, and their evidence in primary texts.
• [31:05] – The ban, pardon, and “test” of Galadriel.
• [41:49] – The Shibboleth of Fëanor—Galadriel’s mythic characterization.
• [66:54] – Tolkien’s final (and most radical) version: Galadriel leaves Aman with Celeborn independently of the Rebellion.
• [97:21] – Mailbag: "Was Celeborn a trophy husband?"

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Structure of the Chapter in Unfinished Tales ([03:41])

• Not a single narrative, but a bundle of texts:
  • Outline “Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn”
  • Story of Amroth and Nimrodel
  • Account of the Elessar Gems
  • Details from linguistic essays (river names, etc)

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Galadriel's Evolutions—Key Takeaways

• Early Story: Not present in the First Age legendarium; later added.
• Multiple Backstories: Shifts in both her role and Celeborn's origin/location.
• Changing Motivations:
  • Ambition and pride (dreams of dominion)
  • Deepened wisdom and rejection of power (mirroring her Ring temptation)
• Status in the Legendarium: Her stature inflates progressively; eventually rivals that of Feanor, then becomes the greatest Eldarin woman altogether.
• Ban or No Ban? This vacillates: sometimes she’s under restriction, sometimes she refuses a pardon, or sometimes is only restricted by her own scruples.

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Humor & Anecdotes

• Frequent playful jibes about the plethora of contradictory versions.
• “Great inflation” as Galadriel’s status rises.
• Quips about Galadriel and Celeborn as a literal and figurative power couple; Celeborn’s “trophy husband” role and their imagined Elvish dating profiles ([102:31]).
• Alan repeatedly notes Tolkien’s process: “I have to wonder if there's an exception there, because Lúthien was part Maia.” ([09:03])
• Banter about Galadriel’s towering height and Amazon’s choices in adapting her.
• References to Babylon 5, Dungeons & Dragons alignment, and The Hitchhiker’s Guide sprinkled in for pop-culture texture.

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Conclusion: Why So Many Versions?

• The tension between creating internally consistent mythology and Tolkien’s evolving ideas about character, motivation, and cosmology.
• Galadriel’s story a reflection of Tolkien’s constant philosophical wrestling: ambition vs. humility, power vs. wisdom.
• Christopher Tolkien’s editorial choices driven by respect for completed narratives while allowing room for later explorations in his notes.

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For Next Week ([83:32]; [97:00])

• The series will continue with a look at the actual narrative “Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn,” examining the further complexities and contradictions in the story, and more on how Tolkien’s evolving conception affected other parts of his legendarium.

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This episode provides a rich, witty, and thorough exploration of how a single character can encapsulate the ongoing evolution and creative struggles at the heart of Tolkien’s legendarium—a must-listen for anyone who wants to understand both the character of Galadriel and the creative process behind Middle-earth.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[B]

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[A]

Good evening, little masters, and welcome to episode 401 of the Prancing Pony podcast. That's right. We're starting our second 400 episodes where I am still fighting the long defeat.

[B]

Well, you have dwelt in the west since the days of dawn.

[A]

Oh, man. Wow.

[B]

Folks, pull up a bench in the common room and join us. I'm James Tauber, the sage of the south, and I'm here with the man of the West, a match for both the law Masters and the athletes of the Eldar in the days of their youth. Alan Sisto, me in the days.

[A]

Days of my youth. Or maybe just in my dreams. Folks, join us as we begin our six part look at an aspect of the legendarium that Christopher Tolkien considered one of the most problematic, which is why we're tackling it the history of Galadriel and Celeborn.

[B]

And unlike Tal Elmar, where we all wish Tolkien had given us more of the story, the problem with Galadriel and Celeborn is there's just too many alternative versions.

[A]

Pick one.

[B]

Exactly. Pick one. And as we'll see over the next few episodes, Tolkien kept changing his mind and working on this right up until the final month of his life.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

But, folks, no matter whether you came to Middle Earth through the books, the films, the TV show, or something else, each of you is welcome here in our common room. The Prancing Pony podcast continues in our 10th season of Reading and talking our way through Middle Earth with conversations, digressions, and even speculations, as well as the

[A]

requisite bad jokes and puns. But our purpose, of course, is to dive deep into the lore to discuss the story, our favorite characters and themes, and in this particular chunk of episodes, our favorite alternate versions, Tolkien's inspirations, and a whole lot more.

[B]

And while we take the work seriously, the same can't be said about ourselves. We're just a couple of friends chatting at the pub. And we're glad you've joined us, and

[A]

we're sure you'll be glad you joined as well. But before we begin tonight's reading, let's go ahead and do, as an intro, sort of what we did with Tal Elmar, which is give you a bit of an overview of what's ahead, lay the groundwork for what's coming so that you know where to kind of plug things into. This is the fourth chapter of part two of Unfinished Tales, so it's technically in the Second Age part of the book, along with Eldarion and Arendus, actually. But it really covers everything from the First Age all the way to the very end of the Third Age. And of course, it's not a single story either. It's actually a grouping of various texts, some of which are just an outline form that Christopher chose to present together. There is a story about Amroth and Nimrodel, which is a fantastic story. A rough manuscript about the two Elessar gems. That's one of my favorites because of all the connections and all the interweavings of different things. It's so cool.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then an account of the Port of Londire, which we talked about, actually, Sara and I, in our episodes on Aldarian and Horrendous, because that's also Vignolande. Yeah.

[B]

There are also extracts from various linguistic essays on things like the language spoken by the Sylvan Elves or how the Eldar are given names. Yeah. And in fact, some of the stories, a lot of the stories are actually offshoots of linguistic discussions. And this is one of the things I find really fascinating about this. This whole chapter. Right. For example, the section on Lon Dyer is actually from an essay on the names of rivers.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's where he's explaining why the river Guathlo is so called that he then goes into the whole story of the deforestation around Londyer and everything.

[A]

Is that the same essay that ends up becoming like it's the whole rivers and beacon hills of Gondor?

[B]

Right.

[A]

Yeah. And it's all in response to a single letter that somebody wrote and said, is this the same as this? And he goes off on this, like, 60 page tangent. I love it.

[B]

It's incredible. So. So this chapter is a great example of how often Tolkien's stories came out of trying to just explain a name or a feature of the language. You know, arguably much of the Silmarillion came out of Tolkien just trying to come up with reasons why there would be two distinct Elvish languages, Quenya and Gnomish. And that led to the whole. The whole situation had to have a

[A]

story that would explain the linguistic changes. It's incredible stuff. So why then, if there's all these extra bits and pieces, this is a chapter called the History of Galadriel and Celeborn. Well, most of the texts in this section have something to do with Galadriel and Celeborn or with Lorien. And so the section is anchored by one text in particular titled Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn. And it really is just a rough outline by Tolkien, but it is a significant document in describing what was going on in Middle Earth during the Second Age. We're going to cover that in some detail in the next two episodes, but in this episode, we are going to focus on Christopher's introduction to the chapter and the discussion around the changing history of Galadriel and Celeborn.

[B]

Yeah. And the chapter name, the History of Galadriel and Celeborn is, I think, deliberately ambiguous. It's not just or even primarily an account of the life of Galadriel and Celeborn within the Secondary World timeline. It's not, you know, what's Galadriel's history and Celebon's history within the world. It's also about the compositional history as well. Tolkien changing his mind about the history. One might even say it's the History of the history of Galadriel and Celebon.

[A]

It's almost like it's the history of Middle Earth history. Right. Because when Christopher Tolkien writes the History of Middle Earth series, he's not actually giving us the historical background of Middle Earth, he's the historical presentation of the composition of all of the stories of Middle Earth.

[B]

Exactly. And that's the same sense here.

[A]

This is the history of the telling of the story. Stories of Galadriel and Celeborn. Yeah. So this, of course, would be a great place to remind you all of something you may not be aware of. Galadriel did not exist in the Legendarium prior to the Lord of the Rings.

[B]

Yeah. And I think that's something that's really worth stopping and thinking about, because she's such an important figure in the books. And then to realize that this was not something that existed prior. It was during the writing of the

[A]

first drafting all these things. I mean, when you realize that he was drafting what would become the fall of Gondolin back in, what, 1917 and then all the way through. So it's not until 1953, 1954, that Galadriel shows up.

[B]

In the 40s, it would have been because he was right. She's in Fellowship, so. Yeah. But still, he'd written a full version of the Silmarillion. He'd worked out all of the First Age and started exploring the Numenorean story and everything. So it was during the writing of Lord of the Rings that Tolkien conceived of this character, a sister of the great Finrod Felagun, no less, who, in Appendix B of the second edition, would be described as the greatest of Elven women.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Which led to a problem. Why is this character not part of the earlier legendarium? Right. If she's the greatest of Elven women, and bear in mind, we've got Luthien, this is. This is something that Tolkien is suggesting. She's greater than Lutheran, than Luthien, but she's nowhere mentioned in the legendarium prior to.

[A]

I have to wonder if there's an exception there, because Luthien was part Maia.

[B]

I wonder. We can. Yeah, She's.

[A]

Galadriel is the greatest of pure Elven women, of solely Elven women.

[B]

Well, we'll get to that, because we're going to see that Tolkien just kept expanding her. Her significance, her stature.

[A]

That is true.

[B]

But, yeah. So, yeah, Tolkien was stuck with this problem. You know, why was this character not part of the early legendarium? So Tolkien clearly had to revise the first and Second Ages to incorporate Galadriel.

[A]

And you said that didn't even show up until the second edition of the Lord of the Rings. So, wow. The greatest of Elven women doesn't even show up from the drafts in the 40s or 50s or even the first run through of the appendices. He has to fix it in the second edition.

[B]

And I think this is a nice foreshadowing of what's going to happen. So Tolkien made changes from the first edition of the Return of the King in 1955 to the second edition in 1966. And one of them was changing some details about Galadriel and Celeborn, including adding the line about her being the greatest of Elven women. So even after the publication of Lord of the Rings, Tolkien was changing things to better retcon her into the legendarium.

[A]

That is interesting. I mean, we know he had to make some changes and the whole idea of even doing a second edition and was sort of rushed because this is connected to the Ace paperbacks thing, isn't it? Where he had to do, you know, to make changes so there could be a second edition. So therefore we could publish and copyright

[B]

would be in the new edition.

[A]

Yep, correct. And so, you know, you. You wonder. He's like, all right, I got to make some changes. What am I going to change? Oh, you know what? I got to make her role even larger. I've got to make Galadriel really important. This is interesting. I really.

[B]

Why?

[A]

Why does he make her so important?

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And if she was so important, why did she not show up?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Until this point.

[B]

Well, the interesting thing is, I think this started off a whole chain of events. We're going to get into a lot of stuff that he wrote after 1966 where he continually increased her stature.

[A]

Yeah, he really did. And when you say continually, it was essentially for the rest of his life, because this continued until the very last month. I mean, this is some of the stuff he was working on right at the very end. It's really incredible. But she just kept getting made more and more significant, which of course had knock on effects in terms of the motivation for her actions, which we're going to have to really dive into.

[B]

Yep, yep. It also meant Celeborn needed a bit of an upgrade too.

[A]

Doesn't he still need a bit of an upgrade?

[B]

Well, turns out the mailbag question will have us addressing that a bit. But one of the variables, you'll notice as we consider all these different versions of Galadriel and Celeborn is that Celeborn's background changes. In fact, it did, even in the Lord of the Rings appendices between the first and second editions. Did it? So that's another change, not just making Galadriel the greatest of Elven women, but actually changing details about who Celeborn was. Okay. There's changes also to how they met, where they lived, who their children were.

[A]

Yeah, the children particularly. It's one of the ones that comes to mind.

[B]

Exactly. And ultimately also why Galadriel stayed in Middle Earth as long as she did. That's going to be different in the different versions. Okay, so let's get into it. Alan, would you like to.

[A]

Yeah, let's go ahead. And so this is the intro from Christopher's sort of. Well, his confession that this is really hard. It's essentially what we start with. There is no part of the history of Middle Earth more full of problems than the story of Galadriel and Celeborn. And it must be admitted that there are severe inconsistencies embedded in the traditions, or, to look at the matter from another point of view, that the role and importance of Galadriel only emerged slowly and that her story underwent continual refashionings. Thus, at the outset, it is certain that the earlier conception was that Galadriel went east over the mountains from Beleriand alone before the end of the First Age and met Celeborn in his own land of Lorien. This is explicitly stated in unpublished writing. And the same idea underlies Galadriel's words to Frodo in the Fellowship of the Ring, where she says of Celeborn that he has dwelt in the west since the days of dawn. And now I know where you got that intro line about me dwelling in the west since the days of dawn. Thank you. Well played. He has dwelt in the west since the days of dawn, and I have dwelt with him, years uncounted for ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin, I passed over the mountains and together through ages of the world we have fought the long defeat. In all probability, Celeborn was in this conception a Nandarin elf, that is one of the Teleri who refused to cross the Misty Mountains on the great journey from Cuy Vienin. On the other hand, in Appendix B to the Lord of the Rings appears a later version of the story. For it is stated there that at the beginning of the Second Age in Lindon, south of the Lune, dwelt for a time Celeborn, kinsman of Thingol. His wife was Galadriel, greatest of Elven women. And in the notes to the Road Goes Ever on, it is said that Galadriel passed over the mountains of Ered Luin with her husband Celeborn, one of the Sindar, and went to Eregion. So Christopher's like, look, this is what I'm dealing with.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Please don't expect me to fix all of this.

[B]

So he starts off saying, not only is this stuff difficult, but that quote, no part of the history of Middle Earth is more full of problems.

[A]

That's incredible. That is really sad, because there are a lot of problems.

[B]

Of course, he probably didn't yet know what the history of Middle Earth would have in store for him.

[A]

Yeah. Let's not forget Unfinished Tales was published in 1980, right, 1980.

[B]

Yeah. Now, he had done the sort of precursor work to the history of Middle Earth, what he was calling the History of the Silmarillion. Yeah. At that point. So he would have had some idea, but he probably didn't understand the full extent of the complexity.

[A]

No. Especially if he was working on the History of the Silmarillion, because that would become what's later known as what, like, Book of Lost Tales and.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And sort of the early stuff. It's not until you get into those middle volumes that cover the actual history of the Lord of the Rings that he would have discovered. Wait a minute. Yeah, where's this? Where'd she come from?

[B]

Yeah, exactly. But he talks about, quote, the severe inconsistencies and says they're embedded in the traditions. What do you think he means by embedded in the traditions?

[A]

He puts it in quotes in his intro. And I wondered if there's some reference that he's.

[B]

I don't know if that's a quote or if it's just a term that he's. He's like.

[A]

He's putting air quotes around something, or inverted commas, as some of our listeners would say. Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Do you have thoughts on what he means by that?

[A]

I don't know off the top of my head. I mean, I have to think he's referencing something that he said. But that's not a line in the Silmarillion.

[B]

No. I'm wondering if he simply means by embedded in the tradition, simply that it was such a crucial part. Like, even as he retconned her back into the First Age, her involvement was in so many significant things that any changes.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Would have meant changing the whole. The whole story.

[A]

Yeah. I just. It was the air quotes that threw me, though. Like, I Was like, is he quoting himself? Is he quoting Tolkien? But I couldn't find anything like.

[B]

No, I think he. I suspect he's just coining a phrase embedded in the traditions or something. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And she is so tangled up in those things that.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, of course she wasn't, which is the point. It was that it was only once he started.

[A]

He then goes on to say, of course, the role and importance of Galadriel emerge slowly and that her story underwent these continual refashionings. And I think I want to linger a bit on this idea that these changes, these refashionings were continual. They were ongoing. It wasn't like, oh, let me. Let me redo this, and then a few years later, let me redo it again. It was something that he never really seemed to settle on. He just kept constantly changing it. It was in almost a fluid state. We have this earlier conception, Christopher points out first was that she was solo when she left Valerian. She ends going all the way from Beleriand, all the way across Eriador, across the Misty Mountains, and meets Celeborn in his own land. That's a long way to go for a date. I mean, not, you know. Okay. I'm not judging. No mention here, though, of how Galadriel came to Beleriand.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But in this version, she's in Beleriand alone.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Celeborn's already in Lorien, and in some sense, it's his land. So he's like the king of Lorien. She travels east and meets him there. He's like, oh, well, you're tall. You're a king. All right, let's do this.

[B]

Exactly. And that's what Christopher calls is the earlier conception. Christopher then quotes some words of Galadriel to Frodo in Fellowship that support that version of the story.

[A]

Yeah, certainly the timeline.

[B]

Right. So that's presumably how Tolkien was conceiving of it at the time he wrote that scene in Fellowship.

[A]

And those drafts of the Mirror of Galadriel would have been mid-40s, late-40s, certainly that ballpark.

[B]

Yeah. Christopher suggests that in that version, Celeborn was probably a Nando. In other words, one of the Teleri that started the journey west from Cuivienen, but stopped before they got to the Mystic Mountains. Christopher then gives a later version, quoting from Appendix B. So already by the time the appendices come out, second edition, perhaps in Lindon, south of the Lune, Dwelt for a time, Celeborn, kinsman of Thingol. And this is the bit where Galadriel is said to be the greatest of Elven women.

[A]

That's interesting. Kinsman of Thingol.

[B]

Yeah. So in that version, the version in the second edition, Appendix B, Celeborn is a cinder.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And he's in Lindon, not Lorien, which

[A]

means he did cross the Misty Mountains, therefore he's not of the Nandor.

[B]

Right.

[A]

In fact, he's a cinder, quite explicitly

[B]

stated as kinsman of Thingol. So cinder.

[A]

Yeah, that's so interesting. And, of course, then he's in. In Lindon, which is far to the northwest of Lorien. Right. I mean, you know, Lindon is. Is where the Grey Havens are located. So it's quite a.

[B]

And the one part of Beleriand that kind of survived.

[A]

So that's true. Right. The Ered Luin. Yeah, the Blue Mountains, you know, the coastal range. Exactly. And they're a coastal range split in half by the Gulf of Lune now that. That Beleriand is gone. So Christopher doesn't say so when he mentions this Appendix B bit, but this is the second edition that you talked about, so we're talking about 1966 now. Then 68 is when this Road Goes Ever on comes out. This is the book that. I love this book. I think it's such a fantastic resource that is sort of underrated. It's the Book of the Music. It's got sheet music from Donald Swan with explanations and a lot of really wonderful linguistic breakdowns of things from Tolkien. In fact, it's got what I think is the greatest breakdown of the Dimaria anywhere. And it's just absolutely, like, essential reading in my mind.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, that's a thing. People might write it off as just being about the music, but you're absolutely right. It's the linguistic information that it gives. We get far more information about Quenya in that book than we did in Lord of the Rings. It's probably our best source of information about Quenya in Tolkien's lifetime.

[A]

It really is. Yeah. So going back to the road goes ever on, when it comes out, it says, as Christopher quotes, that Galadriel passed over the mountains of Ered Luin with her husband Celeborn, one of the Sindar, and went to Eregion. So again, in this version, he is still of the Sindar and they met in Lindon. So again, same sort of region. He's up there in that part of the world. But then we get a new bit of information. They go on from there to Eregion. So we have two versions. Then we have the earlier version Celeborn's and Nando already in Lorien. Galadriel crosses over from Balerion Solo, and they meet in Lorien, the later version 6668 Celeborn's ascenda, and he and Galadriel go from Lindon into Eregion.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Now, Christopher doesn't say here where the earlier version comes from, but if we look at a first edition Return of the King, we get the. The exiled Noldor dwelt in Lindon, but many of the Sindar passed eastward and established realms in the forests far away. The chief of these were Thranduil in the north of the Greenwood the Great, and Celeborn in the south of the forest. But the wife of Celeborn was Noldorin, Galadriel, sister of Felagund of the House of Finrod. So, just a side note, this is the first edition. In the first edition, Finrod is the name of Feanor's brother, who we now call Finarfon, and his son, who we now think of as Finrod, was just called Felagund. So that renaming of Felangund as Finrod actually happened between the first and second editions of Lord of the Rings. And that's why Inglor was another name for him at the time, which is why you, you know, you get Gildor. Inglorion is kind of an anachronistic reference to Inglor. Felagund being the original name of Finrod. That got changed in the second edition, but the Gildor name didn't get updated.

[A]

I remember looking into that when we encountered Gildor all the way back in book one of the Lord of the Rings. Yeah, interesting.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So that suggests that by 1955, Tolkien had already thought of Celeborn as one of the Sindar, although it's obviously made much more explicit in the second edition. And the road goes ever on, we get this move from Lindon, but it's to Lorien and not to Eregion. Right. Lorien being on the east side of the Misty Mountains. And Eregion is the region that we're so used to. It's like the Shire and Bree and, you know, all the way up to Rivendell. So it's up to the west of the Misty Mountains in the North. It's not said that Galadriel is with him initially. So it's also possible then in this 1955 version, that Galadriel still met him in Lorien after he had moved by himself from Lindon. But it's still not clear where the idea of him being a Nando came from.

[B]

Yeah. I'm confused why Christopher suggests that in the earliest version, he's a Nando. Because even in 55, in the first edition fellowship. Sorry, first edition return of the King, in the appendices, he's a cinder. He's in Lindon, and he moves. You know, Tolkien changes where he moves, too, and so on. But he's. By 55, he's a cinder. I don't know where the Nando theory. Where Christopher gets the Nando theory.

[A]

Yeah, you're right, because that's not a quote. He just says, in all probability, Celeborn was in this conception in Nandor and Elf. I suppose if we're talking about if

[B]

he was originally in Lorien.

[A]

Yeah, well, right. Like, in other words, if Lorien was as far west as he went. Right. That would certainly fit with him being a Nando.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And it also fits with the words that Galadriel uses to describe him, saying that he's dwelt in the west since the days of Dawn. So, like, he's dwelt over there. Well, of course, that's the east from where she's at, but it's still the West. Yeah. I mean, since the days of dawn makes it sound like he's been where he is.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Forever.

[B]

Right. So it's possible. It's possible that when Galadriel is talking to Frodo in Fellowship.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The conception was that he was Nadia,

[A]

he stayed behind and founded the Kingdom of Valdez.

[B]

By the time he got to writing the appendices, even in the first edition.

[A]

Yes. Yeah.

[B]

He was Sindar. And then by the second edition, it was absolutely categorically, he's a sinder.

[A]

100%.

[B]

And Galadriel is the greatest of Elven women. Yeah.

[A]

And they met over here instead of over here.

[B]

Right. Yeah.

[A]

It does definitely prompt the questions of why so many changes.

[B]

This is just the beginning, though.

[A]

But this is really, truly just the beginning. My goodness, the Nando theory is interesting. I'd like to pick Christopher's brain on that a little bit more.

[B]

Unfortunately, I don't think you can, but.

[A]

Well, we might not know where this Nando theory came from, but there are plenty of theories to come. New Year, new wardrobe. It's time to get pieces that work together and hold up over time. And that's why I keep going back to Quint's everyday staples made with premium materials and, honestly, really thoughtful design stuff that's easy to wear and that I can count on. My everyday wardrobe is becoming more and more quints jeans that fit great. They're comfortable even on a long plane flight or stuck in LA traffic. A lightweight jacket for the cold weather here in California and a couple of really nice soft cashmere sweaters. Ridiculously soft. Didn't break the bank. Quince works with top makers that meet their high standards, both for craftsmanship but also ethical production. They cut out the middleman so you're not paying for brand markup, just luxurious product without the luxury price tag. I've been wearing their pieces for long enough now. I can tell you they really do wear well and look good season after season. Refresh your wardrobe with quints. Go to quince.com pony for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U I N C E.com pony free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com pony residence day savings are happening

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[B]

The PPP really does have a warm and welcoming listener community. If you've got questions or just want to talk about how much you love Middle Earth, be sure to check out our Common Room on Facebook and across all social media. On Facebook, look for the Prancing Pony Podcast yeah, there's a page, but you're going to want to join the group for that great fan community.

[A]

Now we have had to leave X because of the gaping maw of AI, but on every social media platform besides that, we are at prancingponypod and you can find our subreddit at R Prancingponypod and be sure to check out my Daily show, today's Tolkien Times on YouTube and all your favorite podcast apps. Get your daily Middle Earth fix with everything from Word Nerd Wednesdays to Silmarillion Saturdays. Be sure to watch or [e-mail] prancingponypod all right, James, let's go ahead and get into a little bit more this time. Christopher's not going to give us excuses, he's going to start actually telling us the history of Galadriel and Celeborn, isn't he?

[B]

He is. In the Silmarillion there is mention of the meeting of Galadriel and Celeborn in Doriath, and of his kinship with Thingol, and of their being among the Eldar who remained in Middle Earth after the end of the First Age. The reasons and motives given for Galadriel's remaining in Middle Earth are various. The passage just cited from the Road Goes Ever on says explicitly after the overthrow of Morgoth at the end of the First Age, a ban was set upon her return, and she had replied proudly that she had no wish to do so. There is no such explicit statement in the Lord of the Rings, but in a letter written in 1967, my father declared the exiles were allowed to return save for a few chief actors in the rebellion, of whom at the time of the Lord of the Rings, only Galadriel remained at the time of her lament in Lorien. She believed this to be perennial as long as the Earth endured. Hence she concludes her lament with a wish or prayer that Frodo may as a special grace be granted a purgatorial but not penal sojourn in Eressia, the solitary isle in sight of Aman, though for her the way is closed, her prayer was granted, but also her personal ban was lifted, in reward for her services against Sauron, and above all for her rejection of the temptation to take the ring when offered to her. So at the end we see her taking ship. This statement, very positive in itself, does not, however, demonstrate that the conception of a ban on Galadriel's return into the west was present when the chapter Farewell to Lorien was composed many years before. And I'm inclined to think that it was not.

[A]

I'm inclined to think the same thing. It's so interesting to see how much. Not only how much the story's changed, but how it affects every other element of the story.

[B]

Exactly. Including the nature of the band. So it's worth discussing this a little more because there's a lot to unpack. Just in what Christopher says here is a lot.

[A]

I mean, Christopher starts by pointing out that in the Silmarillion there is mention of the two of them meeting in Doriath. Okay, that fits. Sort of the idea of him being a kinsman of Thingol. Certainly. But the Silmarillion was compiled by Christopher, so we can't really count that as an authoritative source. Right. Where did this actually come from? But, you know, the thing is, Christopher does also introduce another important variable that shows up across all of these different versions of her history, and that is what you just mentioned, the ban reasons and motives given for Galadriel's remaining in Middle earth.

[B]

Right. The 1968 version in the Road Goes Ever on has her being banned from Valinor and her not wishing to return anyway.

[A]

Yeah, fine. You don't want me, Fine. I'll stay here. I don't want to be in your stinking place. You can keep that Undying Land to yourselves. You.

[B]

And in a letter just a year earlier, and this is letter 297, a mostly linguistic letter, funnily enough.

[A]

His linguistic letters always have so much good history in them.

[B]

Yeah, it's really interesting. This is a letter to a Mr. Rang. Tolkien says that the chief actors in the rebellion weren't allowed to return at the end of the First Age. So most of. Most of the.

[A]

Luke Skywalker, Han Solo, Princess Leia, none of them were allowed to come. Come back. Chief actors in the rebellion, I tell you.

[B]

So most of the Noldor were, but not the chief actors.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that at the time of the Lord of the Rings, Galadriel was the only one of these left in Middle Earth.

[A]

So she was one.

[B]

Yeah, but she was one of the chief actors in the rebellion is the key thing here.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And that is important in 67, that's when the letter 297 was written. Tolkien considered Galadriel to be one of the chief actors in the rebellion. And so she got extra punishment. Yeah, the pardon didn't apply to her. She was. She was stuck in Middle Earth. And you are still.

[A]

Yeah, that's right. We're going to fence Valinor against you. And if you cry, I'm not going to even be able to hear you. So. Yeah, yeah, it's so interesting because for her to be considered one of the chief rebels at this point in the story, she's already still one of the. She's already. It's 1967, so that means we already have reached the point where she is. Was the line about the greatest of Elven.

[B]

Greatest of Elven women, and yet she

[A]

was also one of the chief rebels. That's interesting.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

So, of course, that also means she thought she was never going to be able to return, which is why we get that explanation later about the Lament. But notice that it says the ban was lifted for her in reward for her services against Sauron, but also, above all, for her rejection of the temptation to take the ring. It was all about, I pass into the West, I've passed the test, and now I go into the west and remain Galadriel.

[B]

Yeah. So in 67, it's clear that that I passed the test is referring to rejecting the ring. And that meant that the ban.

[A]

Yeah, the ban will get.

[B]

The ban of the Valar was now going to be lifted. But Christopher then suggests that at the time the chapter was written, and he says, farewell to Lorien, Although the pass the test line's actually in the preceding chapter.

[A]

Right. That's in the mirror of Galadriel.

[B]

Yeah. He's suggesting there was no ban. So when she says, when he wrote that line, I passed the test, there was no ban, according to Kristoff.

[A]

Oh, yeah, because the band didn't. Oh, boy.

[B]

The ban was introduced later in Tolkien's mind. So in which case, the test passing and the going into the west and remaining Galadriel perhaps takes on a different tone. Does that mean it was a self test?

[A]

Almost. I mean, we talked about this a little bit at the time that we got into that chapter, Sean and I, that for characters like Galadriel and Aragorn, they knew that at some point it was likely they'd come into contact with the ring. They'd prepared internally to face this temptation. So she knew this test was going to come at some point, whether, you know, especially once she learned what was going on and that the ring was coming through here.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So she knew, even it was just a few days ahead of time, she knew there's a test coming because I'm going to be tempted to take this ring, even by force from Frodo. I just take it while he's sleeping and, you know, take it on and go and challenge Sauron.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

So she knew Just like Aragorn knew and Gandalf knew. And that's one of the reasons why they were all able to resist that temptation. Compared to, let's say, Boromir, who had never had a clue what the Ring was, let alone that he was going to.

[B]

It was a new opportunity for him, not something he'd prepared for.

[A]

Exactly. It was something he never had an idea in his mind of how to fight this temptation to compare Aragorn and Boromir is just unfair in that regard. But Aragorn, Galadriel, and Gandalf all had this chance. And specifically, when it comes to Galadriel, she knew. She knew this is going to happen. So I think, yeah, it could certainly be just a self test, like, okay. Especially when you consider the line and remain Galadriel. Like, I get to keep myself now. I don't lose myself in this ring.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which she would have done.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so I think, yeah, self test makes sense.

[B]

But. But it's really interesting that a line that Tolkien had already written.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Takes on a different meaning as he changed his mind about whether she was under a ban or not.

[A]

Right, Exactly.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's convenient.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm not sure if that's just incredible luck or really, really great writing that enables him to get to the point where I could totally change this element, this significant element of her story. And it doesn't change the writing here. It just changes the meaning of the words that I used or the implication of the words.

[B]

Yeah. It reminds me, actually, if you read the version of the Fellowship drafts where Strider is Trotter. Yeah, yeah. The Hobbit with the wooden shoes. Tolkien doesn't have to change many of the words. He changes him from being a Hobbit to being the heir of Isildur. And the words still work.

[A]

They really do.

[B]

It's remarkable how little he had to change.

[A]

It is pretty amazing. I mean, I was thinking also of how when he completely changed and retconned the Hobbit in the second edition, with Chapter five being essentially gutted and replaced, and yet he was also able to do it. He knew from a printing standpoint, he needed the pages to stay where they were so that they didn't have to re. You know, to reset the pages with the manual type. And so he's able to figure out how to do it in the same number of lines.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The technical skill involved in writing that way.

[B]

Yeah. But, yeah.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, I just. I sort of get the feeling that that sort of writing enables him to make a change without Making drastic rewriting of an entire chapter or entire dialogue. Yeah, it's pretty incredible stuff, really.

[B]

Yeah. But now Christopher presents another much later version. He says it's a very late and primarily philological essay, certainly written after the publication of the Road Goes Ever On. So it's post 1968.

[A]

Very post 1968, if I remember correctly. Right. Early 70s yearly. Find out for this.

[B]

I'm not sure.

[A]

I mean, we don't know until later. Right. Because he doesn't tell us this right away. Because he doesn't think he's going to ever publish this.

[B]

Yeah, he doesn't say what this philological essay is. He just says a very late philological essay. It turns out to be the Shibboleth of Feanor, which he's going to publish in the Peoples of Middle Earth.

[A]

Right. Which we don't get until the Peoples of Middle Earth, which is the 12th volume.

[B]

Yeah, 16 years later. Right, Exactly. So why don't you read from it, Alan?

[A]

I shall. Oh, anytime I get to read from the Shibboleth fan. Or it's a good thing. Galadriel and her brother Finrod were the children of Finarfin, the second son of Indus. Finarfin was of his mother's kind in mind and body, having the golden hair of the Vanyar, their noble and gentle temper, and their love of the valar. As well as he could, he kept aloof from the strife of his brothers and their estrangement from the valar, and he often sought peace among the Teleri, whose language he learned. He wedded Earwen, the daughter of King Olwe of Alqualonde, and his children were thus the kin of King Elu Thingol of Doriath in Beleriand, for he was the brother of Olwe, and this kinship influenced their decision to join in the exile and proved of great importance later in Beleriand. Finrod was like his father in his fair face and golden hair, and also in noble and generous heart, though he had the high courage of the Noldor, and in his youth their eagerness and unrest. And he had also from his Teleran mother a love of the sea and dreams of far lands that he had never seen. Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor, except Feanor maybe, though she was wiser than he, and her wisdom increased with the long years. Her mother name was Nerwen, man maiden, and she grew to be tall beyond the measure even of the women of the Noldor. She was strong of body, mind and will, a match for both the Loremasters and the athletes of the Eldar in the days of their youth. Even among the Eldar she was accounted beautiful. And her hair was held a marvel unmatched. It was golden like the hair of her father and of her foremother Indus, but richer and more radiant, for its gold was touched by some memory of the star, like silver of her mother. And the Eldar said that the light of the two trees, Laurelin and Telperion, had been snared in her tresses. Many thought that this saying first gave to Feanor the thought of imprisoning and blending the light of the trees that later took shape in his hands as the Silmarils. For Feanor beheld the hair of Galadriel with wonder and delight. He begged three times for a tress, but Galadriel would not give him even one hair. These two kinsfolk, the greatest of the Eldar of Valinor, were unfriends forever. Okay, I can't wait to get to that line. I love the unfriends thing.

[B]

So we first of all get a bit of family background for Galadriel and especially her father, Fanarfin.

[A]

Very helpful. I really love that. Yeah.

[B]

And what's initially emphasized is the influence, I think this is really interesting, the influence of all three of the kindreds of the elves. Fnafin's father, Finwe, was Noldo, but his mother was Vanya, and he apparently was like her, kind in mind and body and love of the Valar. It's also where the golden hair came from. But he spent time with the Teleri and wedded the daughter of King Alway, his thing. And then Finrod, his son, is also described as having characteristics of each of the elf kindreds. He's noble and generous like the Vanyar, courageous, eager and restless like the Noldor, and had a love of the sea and dreams of far lands like his teller and mother.

[A]

I think it's interesting that whenever we get somebody that is a combination of the houses of either the Elves or of the Edain for that matter, that they always find themselves at the center of these stories. And they're very complex characters, Right, because they have all these elements of. Like, in this case, what was it? The nobility of the Vanir, the courage and eagerness, but also the drawback, being restless, the love of the sea, all this stuff. I immediately went to some of the men in Middle Earth who have all three of the houses of the Edain. Turin comes to mind because, of course, Hurin was half the house of Dor Lomon with the House of Hador, his father, the lord of Dor Lomin. But his mother was the daughter, the chieftain of the Haladin. So he's half Haladin, half house of Hador. And then he marries Morwen, who's a House of Beor. So Turin is all three. And again, a central character. I mean, pivotal character, but a deeply

[B]

complex character torn in many different directions so many ways.

[A]

And you see that again and again with characters all throughout. I mean, you think about even characters that represent kindreds of both. Now I'm thinking immediately of Earendil, again, another pivotal character who is complex. Not as tragic as Turin. Thankfully, though it all depends on whether you think floating around in a ship and never landing is.

[B]

If that's not your kind of thing, then it could be pretty tragic.

[A]

I mean, exactly. If you're a people person, that's a really. That's an awful fate. But, you know, it's. It's interesting how Tolkien has. He very rarely has somebody who is purely one strand be as pivotal as these characters that represent all of them combined.

[B]

Even think of Bilbo.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The tension between the Baggins side and the Took side.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. Took. And Brady Buck. Yeah. Tuke and Baggins. Yeah, absolutely. That's so fascinating. And it always adds a depth of complexity to the character. But I think it's very interesting that Tolkien often chooses that character to be a central character around which story points pivot and things. It's really interesting.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

So then we get this claim that Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor, except Feanor, maybe. Maybe. Which I love. I love that. Like, well, she's the greatest. Well, except this guy. Except maybe she's still the greatest. I absolutely adore that line. The greatest of Elven Women in the 1966 revision of the Lord of the Rings. And then here, possibly the very greatest of the Noldor at all Menor women, which is amazing. And just Feanor rolling in his grave. What about me? He's down in the halls of Mandos. But I made the Silmarils. I'm great.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And I loved my father. I know somebody's out there going, oh, Alan's beating the fan. Or pinata again. Well, come on. We then get the description of her being very tall, which Amazon didn't seem to get the memo on, but that's okay. I love, actually Morvy's portrayal, but.

[B]

And there's a tremendous amount that we're reading in this chapter that supports yes, there is this portrayal of that portrayal of Galadriel.

[A]

Strong of body, very much a warrior.

[B]

You know, being restless, having dreams of dominion. We're going to get to all that sort of stuff. I think, I think that aspect of it, they totally nailed.

[A]

Just the height. Just the height, just. But that's okay. Elendil's not eight foot tall either.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So, you know, that's fine with me. So she's described as being very tall and then strong of body, mind and will. Right. She's stubborn, she's strong of will is. That's good. But it's a double edged sword there. Very much an old El trait, isn't it? She's described as a match for both the Loremasters. So she's got the brains and the athletes of the Eldar in the days of the youth. And she's beautiful, even for one of the elves. So yeah, you can see Tolkien already has a very high opinion of her.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. And we get this description of her hair and of course the story of Feanor begging for a tress. Although even before that, there's even this implication that, that her hair was the inspiration for the Silmarils.

[A]

Isn't that interesting? Like, ooh, I see. This hair reminds me of the light of the two trees. I should imprison the light of the two trees.

[B]

Yeah, maybe I could get some of her hair. But notice this is Tolkien weaving Galadriel into all of the key parts of the stories. Right. She's actually part of the Silmaril creation.

[A]

That's amazing. I mean, because that story's been around for a long time at this point. Oh yeah, 40, 50 years by this moment of the day.

[B]

Like a plot twist. It's all because of Galadriel.

[A]

That's wild. That is really wild.

[B]

We're then told that Galadriel and Feanor weren't just the greatest of the Noldor, but the greatest of the Eldar of Valinor. I mean, great inflation, anyone?

[A]

Great inflation. A plus plus plus plus plus this progression.

[B]

Greatest of Elven women. Greatest of all the Noldor. Now greatest of the Eldar of Valinor.

[A]

That's incredible.

[B]

It's gonna get worse. There's something coming up that just blows my mind.

[A]

But she's just the greatest of all created beings.

[B]

Just unbelievable. Have you seen Akira, the anime? Akira?

[A]

I've heard of it, but I've never seen it.

[B]

Okay, but similar storyline. Okay, kid ends up okay. Street kid ends up being a God, basically. It's that kind of level of of great inflation.

[A]

As I say, it turns out that she's not just an elf. She's like eru's, you know, twin being.

[B]

I mean, it's headed. Who knows where it would have gone if Tolkien had kept working on this.

[A]

My goodness.

[B]

And of course, we get the great line here about being unfriends forever.

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

And your support there is what enables me to work full time doing all of these shows. The PPP Today's Tolkien Times Rings of Power Wrap up when it shows up and my streaming show the PPP Plays. When you join, you get things like Episode Postscripts. You can get ad free episodes, free merch, and more.

[B]

You can join our questions after Nightfall episodes or even appear as a guest in The north wing. Go to patreon.com prancingponypod to show your support and join the Fellowship of the Podcast.

[A]

And don't forget to rate and review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And please recommend us to your friends. James, the Shibboleth of Feanor keeps going. So I'm going to have you keep going. What do you think?

[B]

Okay. Sounds good. Galadriel was born in the bliss of Valinor. But it was not long in the reckoning of the Blessed Realm before that was dimmed. And thereafter she had no peace within. For in that testing time amid the strife of the Noldor and she was drawn this way and that. She was proud, strong and self willed, as were all the descendants of Finwe, save Fnafon. And like her brother Finrod, of all her kin that nearest to her heart, she had dreams of far lands and dominions that might be her own to order as she would without tutelage. Yet deeper still there dwelt in her the noble and generous spirit of the Vanyard and a reverence for the Valar that she could not forget from her earliest years. She had a marvellous gift of insight into the minds of others but judged them with mercy and understanding. And she withheld her goodwill from none save only Feanor. In him she perceived a darkness that she hated and feared, though she did not perceive that the shadows of the same evil had fallen upon the minds of all all the Noldor, and upon her own. So it came to pass that when the light of Valinor failed forever as the Noldor thought, she joined the rebellion against the Valar who commanded them to stay. And once she had set foot upon that road of exile, she would not relent, but rejected the last message of the Valar and came under the doom of Mandos. Even after the merciless assault upon the Teleri and the rape of their ships. Though she fought fiercely against Feanor in defence of her mother's kin, she did not turn back. Her pride was unwilling to return a defeated suppliant for a pardon. But now she burned with desire to follow Feanor with her anger to whatever lands he might come and to thwart him in all ways that she could. Pride still moved her when at the end of the Elder Days, after the final overthrow of Morgoth, she refused the pardon of the Valar for all who had fought against him and remained in Middle Earth. It was not until two long ages more had passed when at last all that she had desired in her youth came to her hand the ring of power and the dominion of Middle Earth of which she had dreamed that her wisdom was full grown, and she rejected it, and passing the last test, departed from Middle Earth forever. Christopher Continues. This last sentence relates closely to the scene in Lothlorien when Frodo offered the One Ring to Galadriel. And now at last it comes. You give me the Ring freely. In place of the Dark Lord, you will set up a queen. In the Silmarillion. It is told that at the time of the rebellion of the Noldor in Valinor, Galadriel was eager to be gone. No oaths she swore, but the words of Feanor concerning Middle Earth had kindled her heart, for she yearned to see the wide unguarded lands and to rule there a realm at her own will. There are, however, in the present account, several features of which there is no trace in the Silmarillion. The kinship of Fanarfin's children with Thingol as a factor influencing their decision to join in Feanor's rebellion. Galadriel's peculiar dislike and distrust of Feanor. From the beginning, I'm gonna interject here

[A]

and say there's nothing peculiar about disliking and distrusting Feodor. No, I'm sorry. Sorry.

[B]

From the beginning. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

That just shows how wise she was

[B]

and the effect she had on him. And the fighting at Alquor Londe among the Noldor themselves Ungod asserted the Thingol in Menegroth no more, that the kin of Finarfin were guiltless of the slaying of the Teleri. Most notable, however, in the passage decided, is the explicit statement that Galadriel refused the pardon of the Valar at the end of the first age. Later in this essay, it is said that though called Nirwen by her mother, an Artanis noblewoman by her father, the name she chose to be her Sindarin name was Galadriel, for it was the most beautiful of her names and had been given to her by her lover Teleportno of the Teleri, whom she wedded later in Beleriand. Teleportno is Celeborn. Here given a different story, as discussed further below. On the name itself, see Appendix E. Telep or no.

[A]

Telep or no.

[B]

Say it five times.

[A]

That's all we just got. I was going to make that real clear.

[B]

All right,

[A]

I do apologize to that interruption. But come on, you can't tease me like that about Feanor. We'll get to all of that in later episodes, I promise, especially on the name stuff. But this reading starts off telling us that Galadriel was born before the destruction of the two trees. So in a note, by the way, on the Annals of Amon, we're told she was born in the year of the Trees, 1362. Darkness ends up falling on Valinor, 1495. Those years, by the way, were significantly longer. Those are the years of the trees. They're not the years of the sun. So I don't remember. They're almost 10 years each. Something like nine point something. So she was already, you know, young.

[B]

Still young for an elf, though.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's, I mean, a thousand plus years old, but very young for an elf. From that point, we're told she had no peace within. She had that. That typical nolder and pride and strong will that we've talked about already. But she also shared those same dreams that her brother had, the dreams of Far Lands. But the text continues. It's not just, ooh, that looks like a lovely place, I'd love to go visit. That looks like a lovely place I'd like to go visit and take over. Because she also has dreams of dominions that might be her own to order, as she was would without tutelage. Nobody's telling me what to do.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. I mean, this is not necessarily the Galadriel you would get just from Lord of the Rings.

[A]

She may be important, but she's kind of. There's some character flaws here in this version.

[B]

Given this is such a late text, this might seem close to Tolkien's final conception of her motivation for going to Middle Earth. She dreamt of her own dominions, to

[A]

order as she would, and to thwart Feanor.

[B]

Yeah, which I love. We'll get to that. But yeah, we're told that she had, from her Vanyaren ancestry, a noble and generous spirit and a reverence for the Valar. And this comes back to that conflict she's got. Right. Because of these two aspects of her nature. Yeah. We're told she had great insight into the minds of others and had mercy and understanding. Except for Feanor in Feainor, she perceived a darkness.

[A]

I thought that was really interesting because mercy and understanding are really important traits. I think there's a reason why Gandalf is held so highly. He's learned that from Nienna in terms of pity. So, I mean, mercy really compares with that. So the fact that she has that is described as possessing those characteristics is a huge plus in her favor. But it's interesting that she has absolutely none of it for Feanor. Like, she can see who he is. She sees the truth. And, yeah, she's just. I'm not having it. But what she doesn't realize is that as she sees the darkness that's on Feanor, she's got no clue. Tolkien says she did not perceive that the shadow of that same evil had fallen upon the minds of all the Noldor and upon her own. So this is pot, kettle, kettle, pot. And in this version, we're told she joined the rebellion on the Yavin moon, learned how to fly an X wing. No, just that she joined the rebellion. I'm going to keep. That's just too fun. I did like the bit, though, where we're told she fought at Alkalande against Feanor to defend her mother's kin, the Teleri. She was actually involved in the combat trying to stop the Theta defense of the Teleri.

[B]

And then we're given a. This is fascinating. A really interesting motivation for her going to Middle Earth. It's not just about the Dominion.

[A]

Yeah, not anymore.

[B]

It's also to follow Feanor. Not to support him, but to actually thwart him. I'm going to follow him so I can stop him. I'm going to follow him so I can message him. I'm going to chase him to another

[A]

continent just to make his life more difficult.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

This is that strong willed that we've already noted in her, right?

[B]

Yeah. This petulance.

[A]

Almost.

[B]

Almost. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

I mean, you see this, though. It comes in after her defense of the Telideri, her mother's kin against Feanor's attacks. And it's almost like that's what finally drove over the edge. Like, I already didn't like you. I already said no to your request for my hair. I already see a darkness in you. I have mercy and understanding for everybody but you. But now you've gone too far. And now I'm going to chase you to the ends of the Earth and do everything in my power to stop you from your success. Which is interesting because that comes into play with what happens at the end of the first stage, doesn't it?

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. And we're told at the end of the first stage that she would actually, you know, she could have actually come back.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. She'd fought against Morgoth, so.

[B]

But she refused the pardon.

[A]

Even with Feanor already dead and all of his sons but. Well, all of his sons but the one dead. And he's just off strolling seaside somewhere. We have no idea where he Is

[B]

So presumably this comes back to her desire for dominion.

[A]

Because at this point, what is there to thwart for Feanor and his sons?

[B]

Right, Right. This is just all about her bending the world to her order. It's interesting that it's that term of dominions that might be her own to order as she would.

[A]

Yes. Yeah.

[B]

Shades of Sauron.

[A]

Actually, that's exactly what I was thinking. Because Morgoth is all about just, like, consuming. Yeah, exactly. He is completely disorder and is all about just complete destruction and sort of nihilistic approach to things.

[B]

It's the Babylon 5 twist. And I'm sorry if you haven't watched Babylon 5 yet, I know some of you haven't. This is a spoiler, so skip 30 seconds. But one of my favorite sort of twists in Babylon 5 is that you think it's about good and evil between the Vorons and the Shadows and it's actually about order and chaos.

[A]

Right. Yeah. The Voron aren't any better than the Shadow. They just.

[B]

It's the law. It's the lawful versus chaotic axis in D and D alignment rather than the good and evil axis. You think it's good and evil, but it's the other. And it's the same thing between Morgoth and Sauron. It's chaotic evil versus lawful evil.

[A]

Yeah. And in theory, of course, Galadriel would be lawful good. I mean, she has reverence for the valar and everything. But that touch of. That she could order as she would with nobody telling her what to do. No tutelage. It's interesting.

[B]

And we're going to get an even more extreme example of that coming up. This is crazy stuff, but while this is a very late essay, it's not the last word.

[A]

No.

[B]

But in this version, we're told she could have actually come back, that she refused the pardon. So this is in contrast to what we read earlier about the ban remaining for her because she was one of the chief actors in the rebellion right here. She was actually given a choice. You can come back if you want. And she's like, no, no, you kicked me out.

[A]

I'm gonna stay over here because I can't order my realms over there. I can order my realms over here.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

On Realm dash, they can bring me my realms. I can order my realms.

[B]

Not that kind of order.

[A]

No, not that kind of order. All right, so then we get this really striking bit. It was only when all that she had desired in her youth came to her hand. So what was it that she desired in her youth? Interestingly. We get the one thing that we knew for sure, the Dominion of Middle Earth of which she had dreamed. But we also get the Ring of Power. And I wonder in this case if it's more like just power in itself, because she couldn't have conceived of the Ring. Yeah. But we're told in the end that by that point, and it's about flipping time, her wisdom was full grown. So she was able to reject that. The reality suggested to us here is that if she had been presented with this opportunity thousands of years earlier, a couple thousand years earlier, maybe at the end of the Second Age, when Sauron, she might have not passed the test.

[B]

I would say it's almost certain she would not, given that it says it's only in the end that her wisdom was full grown.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, I think so. I think she would have. Absolutely. I mean, in a way, as much as I give Rings of Power a lot of grief for the whole, you know, Annatar Galadriel storyline.

[B]

Yep. There's certain aspects of it.

[A]

Yeah. At the end of the Second Age, she would have been far more tempted than she would have been, you know, by the time we get to her in 3019, 3020, or 3018. 3019. So, yeah, this is definitely interesting to see that. It's only because her wisdom is full grown that she's able to do this. But that's consistent with the test being the rejection of the One Ring, while it's framed in this context of the broader dream of Dominion and also possessing a Ring of Power, if not the One Ring. It's really interesting.

[B]

Yeah. I think the testing is more than just the rejection of the One Ring. It's also this. I'm done with the Dominion now.

[A]

Yeah. The rejection of power, of the exercise of power. Yeah.

[B]

But this does make Christopher's earlier comments a little confusing. Earlier, he suggested that at the time his father wrote the Lothlorien chapters, there was no ban. But in 1967 there was a ban.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

And now there isn't. She was allowed to go back after the end of the first season.

[A]

No. He's definitely gone back and forth on whether or not there's a ban.

[B]

Tolkien was very confused about whether. Whether there was a continuing ban after the First Age or not. But what's interesting is the test seems to be the same, but whose test she was passing seems to swing back and forth. Right.

[A]

Because we talked about this before. Was this her own self test?

[B]

Right.

[A]

And it certainly, if there is no ban, it is a Self test. And she's like, okay, I've now proven to myself that I can, you know, turn this down, and now I'm ready to go and get to be myself.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But if there is a ban, it's. I have passed their test.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And now I can go into the West.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Where I can be who I am.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it's, It's. It's clear that Tolkien kept changing his mind about that, specifically on this issue. Not about the test, but about who the test.

[A]

Whose test was.

[B]

Whose test it was.

[A]

Whose test is it anyway?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he's sort of improving it the whole way through. Yeah. It kind of works, actually. Yeah, man.

[B]

Now, if that wasn't enough, we now get some variation in Galadriel's involvement in the rebellion.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And with that, yet another version of who Celeborn was and how and where he and Galadriel met. So we've already seen the two versions, you know, maybe three versions. He was in Lorien. He was in Lindon. He's a Nando. He's a cinder. Yeah, we're going to get another version. Alan, would you like to read?

[A]

I will indeed. A wholly different story, adumbrated but never told of Galadriel's conduct at the time of the rebellion of the Noldor appears in a very late and partly illegible note. You know what Christopher says? It's partly illegible. He means it's completely and totally chicken scratch, and nobody but me can read it even in the slightest. This is what he really means.

[B]

All right.

[A]

And he calls that the last writing of my fathers on the subject of Galadriel and Celeborn, and probably the last on Middle Earth and Valinor, set down in the last month of his life. In this, he emphasized the commanding stature of Galadriel, already in Valinor, the equal if unlike in endowments of Feanor. And it is said here that so far from joining in Feanor's revolt, she was in every way opposed to him. She did indeed wish to depart from Valinor and to go into the wide world of Middle Earth for the exercise of her talents. For being brilliant in mind and swift in action, she had early absorbed all of what she was capable of, the teaching which the Valar thought fit to give the Eldar, and she felt confined in the tutelage of Aman. This desire of Galadriel's was, it seems, known to Manwe, and he had not forbidden her, but nor had she been given formal leave to depart, pondering what she might do. Galadriel's thoughts turned to the ships of the Teleri, and she went for a while to dwell with her mother's kindred in Alqualonde. There she met Celeborn, who is here again, a Telerene prince, the grandson of Olwe of Alqualonde, and thus her close kinsman. Together they planned to build a ship and sail in it to Middle Earth. And they were about to seek leave from the Valar for their venture when Melkor fled from Valmar and, returning with Ungoliant, destroyed the light of the trees. In Feanor's revolt that followed the darkening of Valinor, Galadriel had no part. Indeed, she, with Celeborn, fought heroically in defense of Alqualonde against the assault of the Noldor, and Celeborn's ship was saved from them. Galadriel, despairing now of Valinor and horrified by the violence and cruelty of Feanor, set sail into the darkness without waiting for Manwe's leave, which would undoubtedly have been withheld in that hour, however legitimate her desire in itself. It was thus that she came under the ban set upon all departure, and Valinor was shut against her return. But together with Celeborn, she reached Middle Earth somewhat sooner than Feanor and sailed into the Haven where Cirdan was lord. There they were welcomed with joy as being of the kin of Elwe Thingol. In the years after, they did not join in the war against Angband, which they judged to be hopeless under the ban of the Valar and without their aid. And their counsel was to withdraw from Beleriand and to build up a power to the eastward. Once they feared that Morgoth would draw reinforcement, befriending and teaching the Dark Elves and Men of those regions. But such a policy, having no hope of acceptance among the Elves of Beleriand, Galadriel and Celeborn departed over Ered Lindon before the end of the First Age. And when they received the permission of the Valar to return into the west, they rejected it. More changes, James.

[B]

Yeah, so this is a partly illegible notice, as we commented on, which is saying something very late. In fact, Christopher says this was written in the very last month of his father's life. And it's not only the last thing that Tolkien wrote about Galadriel and Celeborn, but Christopher says, probably the last thing he wrote about Middle Earth and Valinor. Full stop.

[A]

That gives me a little bit of a. Like, a little bit of a choke, you know, like, yeah, this is the

[B]

last thing he wrote about this whole

[A]

story, his lifetime creation.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think it's amazing that Tolkien was still trying to work this stuff out about Galadriel and Celeborn right to the end. He still wasn't happy with it.

[A]

You've. You've earned your rest, sir. You don't have to keep working on this, you know. You just want to tell him it's okay. Figure it out.

[B]

Yeah. This is quite a striking change.

[A]

It is a significant change. I mean, Christopher says this is a wholly different story, and that's certainly one way of putting it. He says that it is adumbrated but never told. That is, it's just outlined, it's never fully fleshed out. Christopher says the story emphasized just how commanding Galadriel's stature was in Valinor before she left. She was the equal of Feanor, at least even then.

[B]

Yeah. And in this version, she would have nothing to do with Feanor's revolt. So she's completely outside of the. There's no rebellion here at all. It's almost an accident that she gets banned.

[A]

It really is, right? She just wanted to leave around the same time.

[B]

Yeah. But her motivation for leaving Valinor, and this is crazy to me, was in part that the Valar had nothing more to teach her and that she felt confined to the tutelage of Aman. I mean, imagine getting to that point where she's like, I don't have anything more to learn from the Valar, from

[A]

the people who are literally offshoots of the mind of eru.

[B]

I've learned everything that gods can teach me. I now must move on.

[A]

I mean, wow, there's a little hubris there.

[B]

There is, but Tolkien almost seems to be embracing it here. Like, it's not. I don't know. He's elevated Galadriel so highly at this point.

[A]

That's a lot. So then we're told that she hadn't been forbidden from leaving, but she hadn't exactly been given explicit permission either. So Manwe's like, yeah, I hear you, I hear you. Okay. You want to go to Middle Earth? Okay. Hmm, Let me think about that. Let me think about that. This is like when my 13 year old son says, you know, I'd like to go down to the town center. Can I. Can I ride my bike? I'm like, I don't know, son. You know, have you done everything I need you to do yet?

[B]

Do you.

[A]

Do you have my permission? I'm not going to say no, but I'm not going to say yes. Okay, that's probably about the. That's a big stretch of an analogy. But anyway, she spends time with her mother's family in Alqualande. And this isn't entirely just because she wants to spend time with her mom's family. She's looking at the boats like she's thinking. She's. She's making her plan, she's plotting out what's she going to do next. And lo and behold, there. Not in Lorien, not in Lindon, but in Alqualonde itself. That's where she meets Celeborn in this version.

[B]

Yeah. So Celeborn is in Aquilonda. He's not a cinder. He's actually one of the Tellary that made it to Aman.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And not only that, he's a Tellaran prince, which would actually make him Galadriel's cousin, I think if you work out it's actually first cousin.

[A]

I know. Which it shouldn't be. They're not supposed to first cousins. Not on. That's a. No, no.

[B]

Although the text just says close kinsman, wink, wink. Apparently they both want to go to Middle Earth and they plan to build a ship to sail there.

[A]

I sort of love that. Like he, he. Cuz you want to go, you want to go. Let's go. Oh, man.

[B]

But before they ask the Valar for permission, Melkor shows up. Who shows up? Melkor. And who's he got with him? Goliath.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Melkor shows up with Ungolian and destroys the two trees. So that's kind of ruins everything for everyone.

[A]

Yeah. That kind of throws our plans into disarray, doesn't it? Yeah, yeah.

[B]

But it's reiterated again that they did not take part in the rebellion, but that Shane Celeborn fought heroically in defense of Aqualande.

[A]

And I like that. I know that at some point you almost have to figure out what's your own headcanon like. What of all the different versions of Celeborn and. And Galadriel, what version is it that you accept as the final version? I do like the idea of them both fighting against Feanor, even if I'm not. I kind of like the version of him as a cinder rather than as a tillar. And Prince especially. I don't like the idea of as being her first cousin. It's kind of, you know, it's nice to see them really directly opposed and, you know, putting their lives on the line, so to speak. So now the ship had been finished because Celeborn and Galadriel Sail off in it, but they don't.

[B]

It's kind of weird because it just said they plan to. They plan to build a ship.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then all of a sudden, the ship's there.

[A]

The ship's there. And they saved the ship from Feanor's people. I mean, you know, they built it quick. I guess they had some good contractors. The contract with the union was negotiated quickly. And, yeah, they finished the ship and they sail off, but they don't bother to reach out. Now I get it. They can't just, like, text, hey, manwe gee, here. Can we. We'd like to head out. Do we have your permission? Because, of course. Here's the thing. It's always easier to ask forgiveness.

[B]

Apparently not.

[A]

Not with the Valar. Not when you can fence the entire Undying Lands, or better yet, remove them from the planet altogether, as we'll see. But so, you know, they don't get permission. And so that's how she gets banned. Like, there's now a blanket ban, right. Because of what's going on with the death of the trees. And Feanor's actions are like, nope, nobody's leaving right now. Right.

[B]

Which.

[A]

And then you leave. You're banned. You're under the ban. So in this case, then, Celeborn is also under the ban, presumably.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, he's not a Noldo, but he still left.

[B]

He left. And it seems like the rule was just, you leave, you ain't coming back. Right.

[A]

No matter who you are or why

[B]

you left, and it's not you.

[A]

Well, yeah, certainly not even that. But they, interestingly, and I like this, they get to Middle Earth, and they get there ahead of Feanor, and they arrive at Cirdan's Haven, where, of course, he's stuck, waiting until the end of the world to finally make it to where he wanted to go quite some time ago. But they're welcomed as Kin of Thingol.

[B]

And then this is interesting, while there, we're told they did not take part in the war, war against Angband, because they thought it was futile without the support of the Valor.

[A]

Literally. Like, how are you. You're not going to. You're not going to beat this guy.

[B]

Right?

[A]

You can't possibly beat this guy.

[B]

Right. Not without the Valor, which, of course, they were.

[A]

Which is true.

[B]

You know, they were right.

[A]

I mean, they're absolutely 100% right. But it does feel a little bit like. I don't know, there's something about the courage and the desire to. I mean, I'm reading through the. The Nirnai Arnoediad on today's Tolkien times. And, you know, there's something about this desire to, like, stand up against Morgoth, even if it's the end, you know, that I admire.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

And. And here you're like, nah, let's go. Let's go. Move east where he's not.

[B]

They move east. They befriend dark Elves. So in other words, the elves that never. The light of the tree. The trees and. And the men. And. And taught them.

[A]

Yeah, because at least that would slow down Morgoth's ability to expand his power base.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Because otherwise, if they don't do that, these are just more, you know, cannon fodder for Morgoth. The elves are going to become Orcs, right? I mean, more. More. More source material for him to turn into Orcs. And then men, you know, these are going to be men from the East. So we're talking about, like, if we go back to the Nirnais, you're talking about Boar and Ulfang and the various Easterlings that came in, some of whom were faithful, but many of whom were not. And so this is their idea of, like, well, at least we can cut off his ability to grow and expand.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, you know, they are still fighting the good fight, just in a very different tactical way. So in this version, they cross over the Ered Luing together, but they do it before the end of the First Age. So a lot earlier in that story. And they're pardoned, but now they both refuse it. Wow. I mean, it must be something else for Celeborn to say. Nah, I'm going to stick here with Galadriel anyway. Christopher continues. So, James, will you take us away?

[B]

This story, withdrawing Galadriel from all association with the Rebellion of Feanor, even to the extent of giving her a separate departure with Celeborn from Aman, is profoundly at variance with all that is said elsewhere. It arose from philosophical rather than historical considerations concerning the precise nature of Galadriel's disobedience in Valinor on the one hand, and her status and power in Middle Earth on the other. That it would have entailed a good deal of alteration in the narrative of the Silmarillion is evident, but that my father doubtless intended to do. It may be noted here that Galadriel did not appear in the original story of the Rebellion and Flight of the Noldor, which existed long before she did. And also, of course, that after her entry into the stories of the First Age, her actions could still be transformed radically since the Silmarillion had not been published. The book as published was, however, formed from completed narratives, and I could not take into account merely projected revisions. On the other hand, the making of Celeborn into a Tellaran elf of Aman contradicts not only statements in the Silmarillion but also those cited already from the Road Goes Ever on and Appendix B to the Lord of the Rings, where Celeborn is a Sindarin elf of Beleriand. As to why this fundamental alteration in his history was to be made, it might be answered that it arose from the new narrative element of Galadriel's departure from Aman separately from the hosts of the rebel Noldor. But Celeborn is already transformed into a Tellaran elf in the text cited, where Galadriel didn't take part in Feanor's revolt and march from Valinor, and where there is no indication of how Celeborn came to Middle Earth. The earlier story, apart from the question of the ban and the pardon to which the statements in the Silmarillion, the Road Goes Ever on and Appendix B to the Lord of the Rings refer, is fairly clear. Galadriel, coming to Middle Earth as one of the leaders of the second host of the Noldor, met Celeborn in Doriath and was later wedded to him. He was the grandson of Thingol's brother Elmo, a shadowy figure about whom nothing is told save that he was the younger brother of Elwe, Thingol, and Alway, and was beloved of Elwe, with whom he remained. Elmo's son was named Galadhon, and his sons were Celeborn and Galithil. Galithil was the father of Nimloth, who wedded Dior, Thingol's heir, and was the mother of Elwing. By this genealogy Celeborn was a kinsman of Galadriel, the granddaughter of Alway of Arqualonde, but not so close as by that in which he became Alway's grandson. It is a natural assumption that Celeborn and Galadriel were present at the ruin of Doriath. It is said in one place that Celeborn escaped the sack of Doriath and perhaps aided the escape of Elwing to the havens of Sirion with the Silmaril, but this is nowhere stated. Celeborn is mentioned in Appendix B to the Lord of the Rings as dwelling for a time in Lindon south of the Lune, and as a in a note in unpublished material, the elves of Harlindon or Lindon, south of the Lune, are said to have been largely of Sindarin origin and the region to have been a fief under the rule of Celeborn. It is natural to associate this with the statement in Appendix B, but the reference may possibly be to a later period. For the movements and dwelling places of Celeborn and Galadriel after the fall of Eregion in 1697 are extremely obscure. Back to the main text. But early in the Second Age they passed over the mountains into Eriador. Their subsequent history in the same phase, so to call it, of my father's writing, is told in the short narrative that follows here.

[A]

And that'll be the section that we talk about next week. Right. The actual concerning Galadriel and Celeborn. So we'll get to that short narrative next week, or at least we'll start it. But let's discuss what we've read here. Christopher acknowledges that this final version is, and he is putting this mildly, profoundly at variance with all that is said elsewhere. But then he gives what he sees as the reason for this big change. He says that it arose from philosophical considerations rather than historical considerations. James, what do you think he means by that, and what should we take as readers from that?

[B]

I suspect he means that the changes weren't about improving from a sort of point of view of the events, but more that his problem was with Galadriel's motivations. Okay. That. That's what it was primarily. It was a philosophical issue of Galadriel's motivations, not the story would be better and make more sense.

[A]

Yeah, we've got to fix this, because otherwise she's not in the right place at the right time or some other timeline issue.

[B]

It's not a plot correction, it's a character motivation question, I think is what he means by that.

[A]

So elevating her even further.

[B]

Yeah. It seems like he really struggled with the Galadriel that he had described, the

[A]

one who had a lot of pride and wanted all that dominion.

[B]

I mean, it's really hard to say. The fact that she was involved in the rebellion he presumably changed his mind about.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, it's interesting.

[B]

And the nature of the disobedience. Maybe he didn't like her being disobedient. So disobedient to the Bible.

[A]

It's one thing to leave without permission, which is this last version.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And it's another thing altogether to knowingly leave in disobedience direct disobedience to the. To the commands.

[B]

Yeah. I also wonder, because he Says it's to do with the precise nature of Galadriel's disobedience in Valinor and her status and power in Middle Earth. So I'm wondering if he had a problem with the dominance.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And wanted to somehow make her a more noble and generous character in wanting to help the dark elves and men rather than have dominion over them.

[A]

Yeah, I can see that being a case. Right. I mean, it certainly fits with how highly he wants to elevate her.

[B]

Yeah. But it's clear that he had this struggle not about the, you know, the events per se, the plot, but about her motivation.

[A]

And I think he would have changed the plot to fit her motivation.

[B]

Oh, yeah. And it's really interesting. Christopher acknowledges that those changes would have meant a lot of alterations to the Silmarillion story, but Christopher is certain that his father intended those changes to be made.

[A]

That's so interesting. He's like, I'm gonna have to redo this again. I've been redoing the silmarillion for, like, 50 years. I'm gonna have to redo part of it again.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, you think the reshaping of the world and the changing of when the sun and the moon came into existence is big? That's nothing compared to Galadriel.

[A]

Seriously?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's peanuts compared to space.

[B]

That's peanuts compared to space. Exactly.

[A]

I knew that's what you think. It's a long way down to the chemist from here. Oh, man.

[B]

Hitchhiker's reference for those following along at home.

[A]

And now I'm picturing all of these documents about the history of Glad Neuro Killer board. They're in the basement locked in a file cabinet, guarded by a leopard.

[B]

Sorry,

[A]

man.

[B]

Yeah. I just love the fact that Christopher is certain his father intended those changes to be made. And then he reminds us, of course, as we said at the beginning of this episode, the original version of the Flight of the Noldor existed many years before Galadriel was conceived.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But of course, no one had seen that. Right. The Silmarillion had not yet been published.

[A]

Tolkien could fix that before it got published.

[B]

Tolkien could change anything about the Silmarillion.

[A]

Literally everything. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Which raises the question, so why didn't Christopher do that then? He says it's because the published Silmarillion was formed from, quote, completed narratives and that he could, quote, not take into account merely projected revisions.

[A]

You know, I find that to be an incredibly reasonable stance to take from his perspective. He's got this nigh unto Impossible job of publishing his father's work as the Silmarillion. And he's faced with, okay, what do I include? What do I not include? What is the standard? What's the bar that material has to meet for me to include it in this story? Because even though this isn't a single continuous narrative like the Lord of the Rings, it does tell a continuing story. And he's. He's got to figure out a way to make it internally consistent.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

So he's got to draw the line somewhere.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And this seems like a pretty reasonable place to put it.

[B]

Yeah. I'm not going to incorporate things that my father had just started speculating about.

[A]

Yeah. If he had not finished it, then I can't include it.

[B]

Even if he's sure that his father would have.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Pursued that path.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. You know, and I mean, sure, that's one of those things. I might even. I know he didn't choose to do this, but I might have included in a footnote and said, you know, in a later essay, my father decided that, you know, this is going to change. But he never finished that. So I didn't include that here. Yeah. But let's be honest, History of Middle Earth is nothing but 12 volumes of footnotes.

[B]

Unfinished tiles as well. I mean, as the name suggests was sort of the first step towards that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

My goodness. There is another problem, though. I mean, yes, the Silmarillion material had not been published, but the Road Goes Ever on had been published in 1968, and so had Appendix B in the second edition of the Lord of the Rings. And in both of those, Celeborn is a Sindarin elf of Beleriand and not a Teleran elf of Aman. So does Tolkien, in his revision of the Silmarillion, change this? Does he come up with some sort of, like, meta reason why this is.

[B]

Bilbo lied to the.

[A]

Exactly. Bilbo lied to the Dwarves. Exactly what I'm thinking. I mean, so this change was linked to Galadriel leaving independently of the other Noldor. But did that require Celeborn to be there? Maybe. What's that about?

[B]

Christopher seems to suggest that Celeborn had to be in Aman for the independent departure of Galadriel to work. But I'm not sure she could have just sailed the ship herself. I mean, she could have swum, according to Ringaka.

[A]

Oh, my gosh. You had the same thought at the exact same time. Like, well, she could have just swum the whole way. Oh, Lordy, Lordy Lordy. Okay, man. But yeah, you're right. I mean, how does. How does Kettleborn. I guess, in a way, what it does is it. It, in theory, a little bit lessens her liability. Like, it's a shared liability for the decision to violate the well, to not really violate the bank. Because, as we know, they left without asking permission. But they didn't really. Did they know? I'm sure they knew. They kind of suspected that they probably shouldn't go, but they weren't forbidden, but they left. So, yeah, I mean, it sort of splits the liability up. And maybe that makes her just a touch less culpable in rebellion. That seems like just a tiny bit. I mean, I don't think it does that enough to justify the changes to Celeborn. But maybe he's just like, hey, I like the idea of her meeting Celeborn here. But then how does he reconcile that if you were to change the silmarillion? Because again, like you said, at this point, it's not been published and he wants to still publish it. He wants. I mean, many of the last letters in the volume of the letters is him desperately trying to get the silmarillion published.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

So he wants to get that out, and he's like, oh, now I'm going to have to rewrite this. Okay, I'll rewrite this. But what does he do about Appendix B and about the road goes ever on? I think. I think he almost has to come up with a story like Bilbo lied to the Dwarves.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He has to come up with a meta narrative reason, a framework that would explain why there's two different stories. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Although there's this little bit that confused me at first. Christopher makes this comment. He says Celebon was already transformed into a teller and elf in the text cited. And I'm like, hang on a sec. What? I don't remember him being a teller, an elf. In the. In the text cited, he's referring to the shibboleth, but a part that he hasn't yet quoted.

[A]

Oh, okay. Because in the part we read, it didn't say anything about that.

[B]

We're told that Celeborn was of the Teleri, which doesn't necessarily mean anything. I mean, the Sindar are technically Teleri. It doesn't mean he's a Teleri of the Aman. But if you read the fuller text in the Peoples of Middle Earth, we find out Celeborn gave Galadriel her name in Telaran form as Alatariel. So he gives her a name of the language spoken by the Teleri in Aqualonde.

[A]

Right. In Alqualonde, as opposed to the Sindar, who are a branch of the Teleri, and therefore speak.

[B]

And speak Sindarin. So in the Shibboleth, he actually already is in Aman, although we're not told how he came to be in Middle Earth later.

[A]

And that's something you have to sort of draw your own conclusion to realize that you're not like, wait a minute, he gave her a name in this. So that means he's already like. You have to draw that connection yourself.

[B]

Yeah, and Christopher obviously is. So I'm not, you know, this is not something we're just making up.

[A]

He's qualified to do that.

[B]

Yes, exactly. Exactly. So it's really interesting, the suggestion. Christopher's suggestion is that the change of Celeborn, being a Tellaran elf of Aman, actually happens in the. You know, before that last month in

[A]

the Shibboleth, which is.

[B]

Which is a couple of years, maybe

[A]

years, five years at the most.

[B]

Certainly in between.

[A]

Later than 68, but obviously before 73.

[B]

In the earlier versions, Galadriel came to Middle Earth as part of the flight of the Noldor and met Celeborn in Doriath. And that's, I think, the version that Christopher ends up going with in the Silmarillion. In the Silmarillion, Christopher then reminds us of his parentage. In this version, the younger brother of Elwe, that is Thingol and Alway, was Elmo. Cuddle me, Elmo.

[A]

I waited for the.

[B]

I'll wait.

[A]

I love you, brothers.

[B]

And he had a son, Galadhon. And Galadhon's sons were Celeborn and Galathil. And Galithil, incidentally, just as a little side note, was the father of Nimloth, who was Elwing's mother. So at least in this version, Galadriel and Celeborn are not first cousins. They're related, but they're not.

[A]

Well, Aragorn and Arwen are related, but they're not first cousins. Christopher speculates that Celeborn and Galadriel were present at the ruin of Doriath, saying in one place it is said that Celeborn escaped the sack of Doriath, but he doesn't tell us where that's written.

[B]

This is one of the things I find a little frustrating about Unfinished Tales, and I'm so glad this changed once he came to history of Middle Earth.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

But he doesn't tell us in Unfinished Tales. He'll just say late Philological essay. Yeah. He doesn't say what it is. He doesn't say necessarily say when it's written. It's unusual that he says very late. I mean, if you. If you read the Nanny in Unfinished Tales and wonder when was that written? Very little information about that sort of stuff. Yeah.

[A]

I imagine at the time he probably didn't think there was.

[B]

Probably didn't think people were interested.

[A]

Exactly. Like, why would I give you information that's just going to distract you from the story, which is all you care about. Everybody's like, no, no, we care about all of this.

[B]

Which is interesting. It makes me think. There is that bit in the start of Book of Lost Tales, in the forward to Book of Lost Tales where he says one of the reasons that he's writing the history of Middle Earth is so that when scholars try to piece together.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

The origin of my father's writings, they don't get it wrong. He was worried that people would make all sorts of false assumptions about the order in which things were written and so on, and he wanted to set it straight.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Yeah. He obviously didn't have that motivation yet when he wrote Unfinished.

[A]

No, he was just trying to get stories out. Get stories out, Right, Exactly. I mean, the Silmarillion had been a hit in terms of number of volumes sold. And. And I'm sure that Alan and Unwin are like, hey, do you have any more stories? Well, yeah, actually, I do. Yeah. Interesting stuff. So we already read that in appendix B of the Lord of the Rings, Celeborn is said to have dwelt in Lindon for a time, but then he and Galadriel passed over the mountains. Okay. But in a note, Christopher adds that in some more unpublished material, it is said that the elves of Harlendon. So that's the southern park, is Har means south, like Harad. And, you know, I mean, that's just one of those prefixes. They were mostly Sindarin. And under the rule of Celeborn is like a little fiefdom.

[B]

Yeah. So he was kind of the little. Little rule there, like a Ciodan, I guess, that sort of level.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Ciodan ruled the Havens, and. And Celebon ruled Harlindon.

[A]

And then Gilgalad had four Landon, which is the northern portion. And it was the Overlord of all.

[B]

It was the Overlook. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Christopher also notes that where Celeborn and Galadriel dwelt after the fall of Eregion is extremely obscure.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, that's saying it.

[B]

But we're going to get a lot more detail to their movements and their dwellings, at least in one version.

[A]

Well, that's the thing.

[B]

In our next episode.

[A]

Yeah, we'll get. We'll get a couple different versions of where they go over the next few episodes, but we'll at least get the one next week. So Celeborn is said to have escaped the sack of Doriath, but there's no escaping the sack of mail, is there? James, what does Barlaman have in his bag for us today?

[B]

Well, something very appropriate for the discussion we've had in this episode. Patricia from North Carolina asks, was Celeborn anything more than a trophy husband for Galadriel?

[A]

A little arm candy. Yeah. A trophy husband. Do you ever watch Everybody Loves Raymond?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Do you remember the line when Marie says something about, what am I, a trophy wife? And you get like 10 seconds of absolute laughter and Frank says nothing. Trophy wife. What contest in hell did I win? Sorry. Obviously, Galadriel is a little pleased. More pleased with Celeborn than Frank was with Marie. Celeborn's taller than the two of them, standing on each other's shoulders. But was Celeborn anything more than arm candy for the greatest of the Noldor? That's the thing when you're the greatest of all, possibly of all, the Eldar ever.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is anybody anything other than a.

[B]

Right? I think that's what I see.

[A]

I mean, let's be clear. She still has incredible regard for his wisdom. She's not being sarcastic when she talks about him being wise. She's being very serious.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Clearly. They were of a like mind if we go with the version of them meeting in Alqualande and both having this desire to sail. So they're like minded. They're both, you know, noble, they're both wise, They're a very good match for each other. It just so happens that she is the greatest of all

[B]

by definition.

[A]

He's always going to be second fiddle and going to be in her shadow. That's just the way it is. I don't think that makes him a trophy husband in that way.

[B]

No. Because it seems really important to Tolkien to at least elevate him appropriately.

[A]

And I think some of these later revisions are an attempt to do that, to bring him up so that it doesn't. So that she's not completely married out of station.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, to somebody who's just a lowly guy, you know, a distant cousin of King Thingol. Right. Let's elevate his status, make him important. But even from the Beginning when she meets him in Lorien, and he's already a king there.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But, you know, but he's a king of a group of elves that never saw the light. And I think that changes his status significantly. The whole Kalakundi Moriquendi division is big. So I think that at least in making him somebody who's present in Amon, that's Tolkien's way of raising him to her level, at least as much as he could.

[B]

Because he checks the Seeing the Trees box.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. Basically, that's a pretty important box.

[B]

Yeah, Yeah.

[A]

I mean, Kalakwunde is a very, very big box to check.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's interesting that, you know, Tolkien obviously has many examples of a male character wedding, a higher female character. It's always that. That direction. But what's interesting is in. In the case of Celeborn, I mean, it's not a man versus elf or.

[A]

Or elf versus Maya versus Maya.

[B]

They're equals in that regard.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

At least in terms of where they are in the. In the. The chain, especially as they're both Kaliquendi in that version. Yeah, absolutely. But it's interesting that unlike all the other cases, in all the other cases, there's sort of almost this sense of having to earn it. Oh, yeah, right. Beren has to earn it. Aragorn has to earn it.

[A]

Thingol just has to stand there for a few years. Well, yeah.

[B]

I mean, yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Wouldn't it be interesting to see, like, the wooing of Galadriel? Like, what is it that Galadriel finds so appealing in him? Or how does he win her heart? Like, how does he persuade her? But, you know, I think it's interesting. There was a. I don't remember which one of the versions of this was, but I really enjoyed the fact that Tolkien used the phrase that the name was given to her not by her husband, even though he was her husband, but by her lover. I feel like that's a really. It's a much stronger word here. This is somebody that. There's a passion there. There's a deep.

[B]

I think if we. If we go back, I. I thought the implication was even that they had not wedded yet.

[A]

Well. Oh, yeah, yeah, I see what you mean. Right.

[B]

Because I think it's. It gave. It. It was given to her by her lover, and then it says something about they. They then wedded in.

[A]

Yeah, you're right. So, you know, like a.

[B]

So it's actually during the courtship or whatever. Right, yeah.

[A]

Which, of course, kind of takes out, I mean, a lot of Times that that word has a connotation.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That would not have existed in this case because once elves have performed the consummation act, then they are wed.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So he's not her lover in that sense yet. But I do like that he chose to use that word because it reminds us of the nature of their relationship, that there is love there.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

This isn't a marriage of status or convenience or just, well, he's pretty and he'll look good on my arm.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I'm really tall. I need somebody who's at least, you know, seven and a half foot tall. Right. I mean, because you can see this now. She's on hinge. Any. Any men under 6 foot 6. Don't bother. Swipe.

[B]

I was going to say. Yeah. Blue eyes in finance. What's the.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

What is it?

[B]

Six, two blue eyes in finance or whatever.

[A]

Finance, bro. I don't know. I remember seeing that meme floating around, like, going, all right, so that's about 110 of 1% of the male population. Good luck with that. Talk to talk to us in five years and see how you've done.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Was Kelleborn a trophy husband? I mean, in a way, you know, the whole foundation of the question is, is something that I'd want to poke and ask more questions on. Like, what do you mean by that?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He's always going to play second fiddle because he is not one of the greatest of the Eldar.

[B]

Exactly. Exactly.

[A]

Does that mean that she only married?

[B]

I mean, the funny thing is, he could be. He could be one of the top 20 of all time, and he would still be.

[A]

And he very well might be.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Very well might be. I mean, you realize some of the wisdom that he gives them when they're leaving. It's not all her that's giving wisdom. He's giving a lot.

[B]

You know, I don't know if this is preempting something that we'll discuss in subsequent episodes, but I just want to

[A]

talk about it again.

[B]

I want to throw it out there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Celebon stays.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Till the end. Like, longer than Galadriel.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. You go. I'll see you later.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Why does he goes back. He goes back to Rivendell.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

With his. With his grandsons. Right. I mean, they're still there at that point. And he literally takes the last ship. And I think Tolkien says something out and with him goes the last memories, you know, of this time. He was something. He's a pivotal character. You could make an argument for him being among the top 20 for sure. But if you're number 18 on the list and you're married to number one, or maybe number two, if Feanor is number one, that's. That's. You're always going to be in her shadow. And, you know, it's. I think that's the thing. There's such a radiant couple. Talk about your Elvish power couple.

[B]

Yes. Yeah. Yes. No question. Yeah.

[A]

And that's the thing. I think there is a sense of marrying up, like we always get. I mean, we even get that with peers, too. I mean, because, you know, I think the easy examples are your Aragorn, Arwen, your Thingol, Melian, Beren, and Luthien. But even when you have, like, in this case, they're both elves, they're both Kaliquendi, there's still a slight gradation difference. And she is greater than he is, even though he's a steward. You could make the same argument with Faramir and Eowyn. And I think it's an easy argument to make, frankly, that he is marrying up in that regard. Even though they're equals, they're peers, they're both, you know, essentially nobility in their lands. But, yeah, I feel like there's always something that Tolkien elevates the women in these stories. That's a fun question to explore at some other point. Why is that? But it's always interesting stuff. Folks, thank you for joining us for another episode of the Prancing Pony podcast. But please join us again next week when Gadriel develops a completely new motivation

[B]

for staying in Middle Earth, and our old friend Cal Brimbo makes an appearance,

[A]

not on a banner, too, which is good.

[B]

Well, he. The banner is mentioned, I believe.

[A]

Oh, it does come. That's true.

[B]

It does. It does come up, I'm sorry to say. Alan and I want to thank the members of Team PPP editor Jordan Renels Barleyman, Becca Davis, social media manager Casey Hilsey, event and patron, community coordinator Katie McKenna, graphic artist Megan Collins, video editor Yonatan Lazens, and website guru Phil Dean.

[A]

And please take a minute to check out theprancingponypodcast.com that's where you're going to find show notes, outtakes, Prancing Pony ponderings, and our fully revamped PPP merch store. That storefront is where you can get all sorts of cool PPP merch, including the amazing chapter art that Megan's been working on for us for more than three seasons.

[B]

We're all about the books here. At the Prancing Pony Podcast, so so be sure to also visit our library page. We try to make sure that any book we've mentioned on the show is linked there for you to purchase. We do get a small amount of compensation when you make your purchase, so thank you for that.

[A]

And we also want to thank our patrons at the Kirdan's contribution tier. I'll start with Demay in Alaska, Chad in Texas, Lance in New Jersey, Joseph in Michigan, Kathy from North Carolina, Brian in the uk, Jerry from Washington, Irwin from the Netherlands, Ban in Minnesota, Anthony in Texas, Zaksu in Illinois, Joshua in Massachusetts, Lucy in Texas, Erica in Texas, Vivian in California and James in Massachusetts.

[B]

There's also Ann in Kentucky, Sean in New Jersey, Mason in California, Maureen from Massachusetts, Olivia in London, Robert in Arizona, Nick in Wisconsin, Lewis in South Carolina, Thomas in Germany, Craig in California, Kevin in Massachusetts, Joe in Maryland, D. Scott in California, Jeffrey in Michigan, and Paul in Colorado. Thank you all so very much for your support indeed.

[A]

Thank you very, very much.

[B]

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[A]

One last thing. As always, don't forget to send your thoughts, comments, and most of all, your very late philological writings to be parliament at the Prancing Pony.

[B]

Podcast.com Barman does have a lot of mail to sort through, though, so we'll try to get to you just as soon as we can.

[A]

As always, though, this has been far too short a time to spend among such excellent and admirable listeners. But until next time, may you rekindle

[B]

hearts in a world that grows chill.

[A]

Close your eyes, exhale, feel your body relax, and let go of whatever you're carrying today.

[B]

Well, I'm letting go of the worry that I wouldn't get my new contacts in time for this class. I got them delivered free from 1-800-contact contacts. Oh my gosh, they're so fast.

[A]

And breathe. Oh, sorry.

[B]

I almost couldn't breathe when I saw the discount they gave me on my first order.

[A]

Oh, sorry.

[B]

Namaste. Visit 1-800-contacts.com today to save on your first order. 1-800-contacts.