Alan (2:24)

Yeah, I didn't think so.

James (2:27)

Folks, pull up a bench in the common room and join us. I'm James Tauber, the sage of the south, and I'm here with a man of the west who from finds it very notable that there is no mention in this text of a ban on his return into the west, Alan Sisto.

Alan (2:39)

Well, it's because there's no need to ban folks who don't qualify in the first place, you must be this tall to ride this ride. I mean, you know, actually, they could probably get away with that. If you're, if you're not like six six, they're not even going to look at you.

James (2:53)

Yeah, that's the rule.

Alan (2:55)

No such thing as short elves. And there's also no such thing as short PPP episodes, as we'll find out today. Join us as we sort through some heavily amended texts and continue our six part look at the of Galadriel and Celeborn.

James (3:07)

And folks, no matter whether you came to Middle Earth through the books, the films, the TV show, or something else, each of you is welcome here in our common room. The Prancing Pony Podcast continues in our 10th season of Reading and talking our way through Middle Earth with conversations, digressions, and even speculations.

Alan (3:22)

Not to mention a few puns and bad jokes here and there. And as always, more than your share. But our purpose here is to dive deep into the lore, discussing the story, our favorite characters and themes, Tolkien's inspirations, and a whole lot more.

James (3:36)

And while we take the work seriously, the same can't be said about ourselves. We're just a couple of friends chatting at the pub, and we're glad you've joined us.

Alan (3:42)

I'm sure you'll be glad you joined as well. But before we start with today's chapter discussion, it's time to take a look at a truly kingly gift. So back in November, Sara and I had a chance to chat at great length with Dr. Michael D.C. drought, who author of the new book the tower and the J.R.R. tolkien's creation. Now, we spent more than two hours visiting with him and still had a half dozen questions for him, so maybe he'll come back.

James (4:12)

Now that the book has been released, though, we want to talk about it here on a Kingly Gift segment. Your chat with him came out on November 23rd, and the book released a couple of weeks later on December 2, and it's quickly become the must read book of the year. Or years, really, on Tolkien.

Alan (4:28)

That's true. I mean, it's a 25 book, but most folks are going to be reading it in 26, I imagine. Now, you know the book has to be special when it only has three blurbs on the back, and the names of those endorsements are Tom Shippy, Verland Flieger, and Tom Hillman. I can't think of higher praise you'd be forgiven, by the way, for looking at the COVID and thinking to yourself, this is going to be a great analysis of Tolkien's legendarium. I mean, you're right, but you're only partially right. The book is a lot of analysis, but it's also intensely personal. Memoir, even a little bit of autobiography. Mike takes us through his own experience in Middle Earth in a way that only somebody who has studied Tolkien as much as Drought has could possibly do.

James (5:11)

Yeah. I mean, the basic premise of the book, as he says, is that J.R.R. tolkien's writings are qualitatively different from most other works of 20th century literature. Yeah. But I love the fact that it isn't just, as you say, an analysis of the text. It's deeply personal. It interweaves a lot of biographical detail in service of the argument of how great Tolkien is.

Alan (5:35)

Exactly. It's never, oh, let me just tell you about this thing that happened in my life. It's. Let me. Let me use this as a way to illustrate the point that I'm trying to make about Tolkien.

James (5:43)

Yeah. And I think this is a really significant book. He talks a lot about the role that Tom Shippey played in kind of legitimizing Tolkien as a subject of study, that it was really Tom Shippey's 82 book the Road to Middle Earth, later supported with his author of the century book in 2000, that really sort of set the academic world straight that Tolkien was worthy of study. But I actually think Drought's book is now the go to book for that argument. I mean, he says himself that he's not trying to defend Tolkien because he sort of thinks that Shippy's already done that.

Alan (6:21)

We no longer need to do that. Right.

James (6:23)

As Drought says, Shippy demolished the arguments of the most significant anti Tolkien critics. But I still think now Drought's book is the one that I would point people to who want to understand from an academic point of view why Tolkien is so significant, why the works work so well. This is something that's really dear to my heart because my own scholarly research, including the master's dissertation they did a couple of years ago, and the PhD that I'm about to do, is very much focused on sort of a quantitative analysis of Tolkien's writing style. And in many regards, Drought's book is kind of the other side of that coin. He's providing the qualitative literary arguments that a lot of my research is then trying to back up. So I wish in some ways that Drought's book had come out earlier. I would have cited it extensively in my master's dissertation. I certainly will be in my PhD as well. But, yeah, it's a wonderful book.

Alan (7:23)

Truly is.

James (7:24)

As I said, I love the way he interweaves his personal experiences.

Alan (7:29)

It makes it an eminently more readable book. I mean, this is absolutely no disrespect to Tom Shippey, who's an incredible author and who I can read his books and hear his voice as he speaks. But there is something to be said about Road to Middle Earth being a little harder to get through because of its sort of academic nature. I get that. I mean, full respect of what he put together. Again, like you said in 82, this was an early effort to, like you said, legitimize Tolkien's studies as a figure.

James (7:56)

It was really groundbreaking.

Alan (7:58)

It was very groundbreaking. Yeah. And of course it's still a fantastic read, but it is a harder read. And I think there's something about droughts book here that makes it, I'm not going to say an easier read because it isn't. And Mike even says that. He goes, this is a hard book to read, even for Tolkien scholars, even for people who've been studying Tolkien for years. This will still be a hard read. But there's something about that personal nature that just brings you in and you're listening to him tell a story the entire time.

James (8:26)

Yeah, yeah.

Alan (8:27)

And it's really well woven. Like you said, this is one of the go to books. Now, I had always had just a handful of books on that list. I mean, Shippy's Road to Middle Earth or Author of the Century, you could go either way, really. Garth's Tolkien and the Great War. Carpenter's biography, even though we know it's kind of flawed, is also a good place to start, just to get to know him. But lately only two books have entered the pantheon and it's Hillman's Pity Power.

James (8:55)

I was going to say, that's the other one.

Alan (8:57)

Yeah. And this one.

James (8:57)

And it's interesting that you mentioned at the top that the three blurbs at the back are Shippy Flieger and Hillman. In some respects, I see Hillman as really picking up a lot of Verland Flieger's mantle, drought picking up Shippy's mantle

Alan (9:14)

even in writing styles too. I mean, when you read Pity Power and Tolkien's Ring, it reads a lot like Verland Flieger's work, where, you know, he's taking you along just as she used to do with describing some things in the book and then pulling them together in a way that you have never, ever considered in your life. You've read the books a dozen times. 50 times, and then all of a sudden, your jaw just drops.

James (9:39)

Yeah, exactly. Whereas I think it's interesting what Drought's doing a lot of here, and I want to talk a little bit about what some of the chapters cover, but I think what Drought is doing a lot of, is actually explaining how Tolkien is achieving something that we intuitively know he's doing. Yes.

Alan (9:55)

It's almost like he's pulling the curtain back and you're getting to see a. More. This is how the works work. This is why you get this feeling when you read these passages. And it's something that really only Drought can do because of his immense expertise and everything from, you know, old English, literary analysis, medievalism. I mean, he's just. He's got it all. Yeah, that helps.

James (10:17)

Yeah. So. So I want to. I want to touch on a few. Yeah, yeah. Of the chapters in individual bits. So there's. There's seven chapters in total, and they've all got one word.

Alan (10:25)

Yes.

James (10:26)

Titles, Origins, frames, texts, patterns, emotions, Threads and Tapestry. So the Origins chapter, the first one, looks at Tolkien's influences, things like Rider Haggard and William Morris, but also Beowulf and the Kalevala, and focuses on Tolkien's early writings, things like the fall of Gondolin and how it, in the very early versions, tried to capture some of what Ryder Haggard was doing stylistically. But he touches on, of course, one of the things that he's going to talk about a lot throughout the whole book, and it's in the title, the ruin part of the title, is this whole idea of the textual ruins. And I just want to read a quote, because I think this touches not only on that aspect of the textual ruins, but also how it ties into, really, the deeper themes of loss and grief that are so personal in this book because of what droughts has gone through. But I'll just read this quote. The ruined text produces the same feeling of fragility and permanence. It comes to us, broken beyond repair, confused, mangled, barely clinging to existence, but enduring and old. So much older than we can really understand, and yet the unmistakable work of an individual, of one person who dipped a quill into ink and touched it to the parchment that we ourselves touched. Tolkien was neither the first nor the only person to feel this sense of entwined loss and endurance, but he was one of the very few to find a way to reproduce it.

Alan (12:00)

Yeah, I love that there are so many of those sorts of lines where you just read it and you're like, wow, that puts into words a thing that I'd Been feeling a thing that I had experienced and sensed as a reader, but couldn't wrap myself around in terms of thought.

James (12:19)

Yeah. And how he's doing it. And then in the second chapter, frames, it's really focused on Tolkien's use of frame narratives going back to the cottage of Lost play, and even how that relates to Tolkien's own arguments about who Hengist was. But then going into Notion Club papers, narratorial intrusion in the Hobbit, the note on the Shire records, and the whole Red Book of Westmarch framing, the whole conceit of translation, he really looks at how that's all used in the service of the storytelling and helping with the depth that it gives us.

Alan (12:54)

Right. That sense of reality, that sense of this isn't a story, this is a history.

James (12:59)

Yeah, exactly. And then in the third chapter, texts, he's really focused on the way that Tolkien gives us what he calls a heterotextuality. So he talks a little bit about multivocality, which is this idea of there being multiple voices. But Drought argues that Tolkien goes a step further with this heterotextuality. It's not just that you're hearing different voices, but there are very different styles. And that goes to that whole impression of depth that Tolkien's able to.

Alan (13:35)

To achieve the idea that there are many different historians putting something down, recording events, narrating things. And I think one example that folks who maybe haven't read Drought's book yet, but might be able to think of is you think of the way the Council of Elrond goes, and you think of the texts that Gandalf brings in from Isildur's writings, or you look at the difference in the way these characters speak. It's that same idea, but this time instead of being characters speaking differently. Yeah, it's the narrator speaking differently because it's a different narrator.

James (14:08)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And, yeah, there's a real masterful discussion of all those sorts of issues. And then I'll just comment. Obviously, there's a bunch more chapters I want to say something about.

Alan (14:22)

4.

James (14:22)

I know that this word heimwe, that comes up particularly in chapter five, that we'll talk more about in a moment, but I do want to just briefly say with chapter four. Chapter four is called Patterns. And again, this is another one that's dear to my heart in terms of my own research. This is looking sort of at more narratological things and focalization. So focalization is whose point of view you're telling it from? Not so much the Lord of the Rings is not necessarily a work where different chapters are different points of view. Like you get in something like the Song of Ice and Fire or the Expanse. Both of those book series are. Each chapter is told from a different person's point of view. Tolkien's doing something slightly differently. He's using focalization, which is. I sort of think of it as who the camera is pointing at. When characters split up, who does the camera follow? And so you see, for example, in Book two, we almost. For almost the entire chapter, the entire book, we follow Frodo. So even when just a couple of the Fellowship go up to look at the pool in front of the West Gate of Moriarty, it's just Gimli, Gandalf, but it's also Frodo. So we follow them. We leave the others behind. We follow Frodo. The only exception to that, and this is remarkable that Tolkien does this during the whole Boromir, Frodo leaving. That's the one point in Book two where we stop following Frodo. And it's wonderful that it's at that moment because we, the readers, are kind of all of a sudden shocked. Oh, no, we're no longer following Frodo. We're just as confused as the rest of the Fellowship are as where Frodo's gone. So, you know, Drought looks at this whole issue of focalization. And of course, one of the things that Drought has talked a lot about, including in the very first time I ever heard Drought speak, was that on

Alan (16:09)

how to read the Lord of the Rings. Was that.

James (16:10)

Yeah. So his 2014 talk at Carnegie Mellon, I think it was. I watched that video, and it was hugely significant to me personally, because that was the talk that made me realize that there were people that studied Tolkien academically. Yeah. And that's what actually led. I'd been a Tolkien fan all my life, but that was the moment I realized, wow, this is actually something that I could. Could study.

Alan (16:33)

Right.

James (16:34)

And it was all thanks to that talk. But one of the things he talks about in that talk and that he talks about in this chapter four, vocalization on the least knowledgeable character. One of the ways that Tolkien gets around a problem that so many writers in speculative fiction, the problem they have is this need to explain how the world works. Right. Because obviously in speculative fiction, you're dealing with a world that's different from our own. And so you need to explain that. How does magic work? How does society work? How does culture work?

Alan (17:05)

And as an author, you spent all this time creating this world. You want to Explain it to the readers.

James (17:09)

Right. It's so forced.

Alan (17:10)

Yes.

James (17:11)

There's. There's this wonderful phrase that gets used, the as you know, Bob problem. Right. Which is. Which is where you end up having a character just very artificially saying, you know, as you know, Alan, this is how society works. And as you know, Alan, this is how magic works.

Alan (17:28)

It was like the ranking of Bass, Return of the King. When Eowyn shows up out of nowhere. You have no idea who the Rohirrim are. You have no idea who she is. But all of a sudden you get. I think it's Pippin explaining it. And you know, which is of course, Casey Kasem. It's really weird, Zoid Scoob.

James (17:49)

But the great thing is Tolkien avoids that.

Alan (17:52)

Yeah.

James (17:52)

As. As Drought has pointed out many times by focalizing on the character with the. The least knowledge.

Alan (17:59)

Which is why it's so often Sam, I think, like that's. Isn't that the sense that you get? Like, I mean, it's not always Sam, of course.

James (18:05)

Right, right, right. Sometimes it's Gimli, House of the Dead.

Alan (18:09)

Exactly. It is, it's. And it's. It's such a way of telling us the story and telling us those details without being so heavy handed.

James (18:17)

Yeah.

Alan (18:18)

And Drought here does an excellent job of defining it, of, of explaining it and of walking us through it as readers. So that as we go through it, we get to. We get to sort of see behind the curtain. Like we.

James (18:32)

Yeah, yeah.

Alan (18:33)

It's fantastic. So much. What were some of the other chapters? You've obviously done a great job of sort of summarizing these.

James (18:38)

Yeah. So just to finish up with the other chapters and then, you know, I'd love to hear your thoughts on them. So chapter five is emotions. And that's where we get this discussion of, of Heimway, that Germanic word for the pain of the lost home, and sort of issues around exile and all this sort of stuff that pervades so much of Tolkien's work, which is really

Alan (18:56)

relevant to what we're talking about today as we get into Galadriel and the ban or the non ban, whatever it may be.

James (19:01)

And then six and seven look at mostly sort of the way he deals with themes in interesting ways. Chapter six, which is called Threads, is looking at secondary themes and the way that Tolkien brings together sort of almost different perspectives of things. Doubt brings up this issue in the Hobbit, of this combination of both the epic world and the bourgeois world in a way that you actually end up appreciating both.

Alan (19:29)

Yeah.

James (19:30)

Right. You actually like the comfortable life of the shy, but also like the epic, you know, expanse the world and just how masterful Tolkien is at doing that. And then chapter seven is sort of related tapestry. Yes. It's really to do with the intertwining of these themes and how things are interwoven. You know, what's going on in Rohan with what's going on in Gondor and

Alan (19:54)

so on, which, of course, is one of the things that we love so much. And one of the reasons why I find those sections of the story, like book three, to be one of the most fascinating parts of the Lord of the Rings is that interlacing, which is actually an old medieval way of telling a story, you know.

James (20:14)

Yeah. Richard west wrote a very influential article in 1975 pointing this out, this interlaced structure of Lord of the Rings and how much it resembled, as you said, the sort of medieval structure of these sorts of writings. And Drought talks quite a lot about that in this book as well, and really builds on West's insights.

Alan (20:33)

I don't have a lot to add. I do want to throw in a few things. I like that one of his central arguments, and this was an interesting one, and I encourage folks, if you haven't listened to episode 391 yet, to go back to that interview, because he explains this in the book. He actually makes the argument that the oddities in Tolkien's writing, things like the contradictions, inconsistencies, gaps, all of these things, certainly something we're dealing with here in our current chapter. Obviously, those are a little bit of the secret sauce. Those are the elements that make it feel real. But what he argues is that this wasn't always something that Tolkien did on purpose. Sort of a fortuitous or serendipitous result of what Drought calls the long and tortuous composition Tolkien's writings. And I just found that so interesting. And I, at first I thought, no, no, Tolkien, Tolkien always did this on purpose, but he really does make the case and makes it.

James (21:25)

Well, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Alan (21:26)

That. No, this just is a sort of lucky happenstance from a guy who's put so much effort into it. Right. I mean, it's just the natural result of writing about these things over and over and over and making changes and how some of those inconsistencies and things that. That lend that credence, that historical reality to it are just a result of writing it so many times. I thought it was a fascinating story.

James (21:48)

Exactly. I actually noted down a quote that just follows on from exactly the part you're referring to, he says, although Tolkien may not have set out to create a complex, multi layered textual archive as a background for subsequent work, once this resource existed, he exploited it. And the ways in which he both drew upon and modified the archive created a textual patchwork whose heterogeneity in both content and style works in concert with the other factors to produce the impression of depth by implying that multiple and different written works.

Alan (22:20)

Yeah.

James (22:20)

Were created in the imagined world.

Alan (22:22)

Exactly. And he started. I think you can see him starting to do that as early as the second edition of the Hobbit when he had to retcon chapter five. And his explanation for the different archive. Right. Was that, well, the Bilbo had lied to the Dwarves.

James (22:35)

Right, Exactly.

Alan (22:36)

So here we have this more accurate story. And later on, as he continues to make these changes, you realize he's coming up with explanations for why the different histories that he himself wrote, why they vary.

James (22:49)

Yeah. I mean, this is something that we've talked about a little bit and I think we'll touch on that in the next few episodes of this kind of viewing. The inconsistencies, different sects in the world having different views of who Galadriel was and what her significance was and stuff like that. It's a fun game to play. And I think Tolkien would have enjoyed that.

Alan (23:09)

I think so. Heimway. Heimweh, I should say. My German teacher just collapsed in convulsions when I pronounced the W like an English W. Heimweh. It's a very interesting word. And I really enjoyed Drought's explanation of what it means to kind of give you all a shorthand version. It is sort of a homesickness, a longing. It's not quite nostalgia, it's not quite sorrow. It's not quite. I mean, it's. It kind of encompasses all of that, but it's a really good word to represent that sense that we get as readers for, like, the Shire, when we're with Sam climbing the slopes of Mount Doom, when we are with Galadriel and she's lamenting, you know, where is a ship that could take me across so wide a sea?

James (23:55)

Yeah.

Alan (23:55)

That. That sense of pervasive. It's not loss in the sense that you might call it loss. It's more like the thing that isn't. It may be again, but it isn't right now.

James (24:10)

You could even say it's the experience when you reach the end of the book.

Alan (24:14)

Oh, it really is. Oh, as a reader, 100%.

James (24:17)

Yeah.

Alan (24:18)

I want to go back. I need more. Where's my fix, Professor? Where's my fix? I need more.

James (24:25)

Now I'm saying in Jack in Lost, we have to go back.

Alan (24:29)

We have to go back. I'm going to. There's only one more thing that I particularly want to mention. And then we're already running long into what I think is going to be a long episode. I wanted to point out something. Probably one of my favorite moments in the book is his take on Hurin's last stand, which is of course one of my favorite moments in the legendarium. He argues that Tolkien briefly but very purposefully extends the depth of the story by pointing out that this, this story of Hurons and his last stand comes to us from a tradition. And he points out the line, it is sung that this happened. And I don't know about you, but I probably had missed that 90% of the time because I just want to get to are days shall come again. Drought writes, the memory of Hurin's deeds is understood as having been preserved for a very long time. And, and that is part of the hero's triumph. The very fact that it is sung means that Hurin's battlefield prophecy was true. Day did come again. That the sad story exists is a sufficient triumph and reason for hope.

James (25:37)

Amazing. And can I just say, in light of Mike's own personal life, that just means so much. So much more.

Alan (25:47)

So much more.

James (25:48)

It's an incredible book.

Alan (25:49)

Go back and listen to 391 to hear more about that and, and definitely read the book. We'll include. We've got a link to it in our library. We've had that forever, but we'll put that back up in the show notes for this one just to make sure you get a chance. But just from a technical perspective, the book itself, solid hardcover, decent paper quality. I mean, I like that it's not a paperback. Frankly, I like a good hardcover. It's got a nice matte cover that doesn't get two fingerprint smudged. It's very readable text. But I would recommend the audiobook because Mike actually narrates it himself and it really does bring home the personal nature of much of the story itself. But if you are interested in a physical book, I saw a social media post recently. I don't know if I'm going to do this, but I saw it looked like he was signing what looked like an Easton Press deluxe edition.

James (26:36)

Okay.

Alan (26:37)

And he was saying if you ever wonder whether they really sign these, they do. And he's. He's signing you know, copy after copy. So I don't know when that's going to release. I looked on their website and there was nothing about it. Interestingly though, there is one of Dawn Marshall's recent release, so I would imagine there's going to be one for this as well. I'm waiting for Easton Press to call me about why we love Middle Earth and when they want to put that in Weatherbound. I'll keep waiting. I don't mind. Fantastic book, folks. Absolutely. All right, well, with that in our rearview mirror, let's go ahead and move into tonight's chapter discussion as we get into the portion of the history of Galadriel and Celeborn that, surprise, surprise, actually deals with Galadriel and Celeborn.

James (27:17)

James the text bearing this title is a short and hasty outline, very roughly composed, which is nonetheless almost the sole narrative source for the events in the west of Middle Earth up to the defeat and expulsion of Sauron from Eriador in the year 1701 of the 2nd Age. Other than this, there is a little beyond the brief and infrequent entries in the Tale of Years and the much more generalized and selective account in of the Rings of Power in the Third Age published in the Silmarillion. It is certain that this present text was composed after the publication of the Lord of the Rings, both from there being a reference to the book and from the fact that Galadriel is called the daughter of Finarfin and the sister of Finrod Felagund, for these are the later names of those princes introduced in the revised edition. The text is much amended, and it is not always possible to see what belongs to the time of composition of the manuscript and what is indefinitely later. This is the case with those references to Amroth that make him the son of Galadriel and Celeborn, but whenever these references were inserted, I think it is virtually certain that this was a new construction later than the writing of the Lord of the Rings. Had he been supposed to be their son when it was written, the fact would surely have been mentioned. It is very notable that not only is there no mention of this text of a ban on Galadriel's return into the west, but it even seems from a passage at the beginning of the account that no such idea was present, while later in the narrative, Galadriel's remaining in Middle Earth after the defeat of Sauron and Eriador is ascribed to her sense that it was her duty not to depart while he was still finally unconquered. This is a Chief support of the hesitant view expressed above that the story of the ban was later than the writing of the Lord of the Rings.

Alan (29:19)

And that when he says above, he's talking actually about what we talked about last week. Speaking of last week. Just a reminder of what we talked about. There is no definitive story. There is no definitive version of the story of Galadriel and Celeborn. There are variants and changes along the way. So we're just going to enjoy them as they come along. We're going to do a little comparison, a little speculation. Should be interesting as we see the various versions of the story, maybe figure out what our favorites are. Like, what's your headcanon? Which one of these is real, you know?

James (29:48)

Yep.

Alan (29:49)

The first section that James just read is of course, not any of the versions of the story of Galadriel and Celeborn. It's just Christopher Tolkien helping us get a handle on the nature of the text when it was composed, why he knows that and more.

James (30:01)

Yep. And he starts by telling us that it's a short and hasty outline. Don't be hasty, Christopher. Exactly. That's how. How Treebeard would describe it. Christopher doesn't say this. Next reason is why he included it in Unfinished Tales, but I can't help but think it played a factor. He describes it as almost the sole narrative source for the events leading up to second age 1701.

Alan (30:29)

And that's a very good point, because if he had, say, three or four other narrative sources, he might have saved this for later stuff in History of Middle Earth. But this is really it. I mean, it's the same reason why Eldarion and Arendus is in there. It's all we got for that time period.

James (30:44)

Right?

Alan (30:45)

I mean, sure, we have of the Rings of Power in the Third Age, which we'll just call Atrophata going forward for simplicity's sake. That has a good chunk, especially the Eregion story elements, but not a lot on Galadriel and Celeborn. So that might be why he includes it here. But now we get why he's dated this to after the publication of the Lord of the Rings. Now, first, I have a question for you. Maybe you can help me with this one. He says there is a reference to the book. You're very good at finding these kinds of things. What is the reference? Because as I look through the story, I see a lot of references, but they're all Christopher's references in the bracketed bits.

James (31:19)

You know, I'm not sure what Christopher is referring to here. This is something that I might have to go back and look at in more detail. I can't. I mean, he certainly talks about a lot of events. I'm wondering if some of those events are ones that he only mentions in Lord of the Rings, and that could be. That's the connection. But most of it's Second Age stuff. I'm trying to think of what. Yeah, maybe. Maybe we'll notice as we read. This is something we can look out for.

Alan (31:45)

Maybe we will.

James (31:46)

But I want to come to the second thing that Christopher mentions in this outline, which is Galadriel is Finarfin's daughter and Finrod's sister, which we discussed in the last episode, is a change that was made in the second edition of Lord of the Rings. Right. The revised version of Lord of the rings in 1966 is when the name changes took place. Prior to that, in the first edition, Fnafen was called Finrod, and Elf, we know of as Finrod was simply called Felagund or Inglor Felagund. And it's in the revised edition that Finrod was renamed as Fnafin, and Felagund was given the name Finrod. So the fact that that name change had happened, and of course, this is something Christopher often uses to date texts.

Alan (32:27)

Yeah.

James (32:28)

What name did Tolkien use for characters? It means this was written after Lord of the Rings and possibly quite close to the 1966 date. I mean, we don't know, obviously, when Tolkien changed his mind about the. The dating. Was it in the preparation of the second edition? Was it much earlier?

Alan (32:47)

That's a good question. We don't know, but sometime between then, you know, like 1956 to 1966 is about.

James (32:54)

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Alan (32:55)

It's as close as we can get.

James (32:57)

There's one other piece of evidence, but we'll get to that as. As Christopher does.

Alan (33:00)

That makes sense. Christopher then goes on to tell us his readers. Look, there are a lot of emendations or changes to the text. It's impossible even for him to know what elements belong to the time that the manuscript was originally penned and what was written later.

James (33:15)

Yeah, I mean, this happens a lot in History of Middle Earth. If you ever have a chance to look at any of these manuscripts. Tolkien wrote something down and then so many things crossed out and things written in the margins, and it's not always obvious. Did he cross that out and write something in the margin at the time? Did he do it 10 years, 20 years later? It's really difficult to tell.

Alan (33:35)

It would be nice if you could just be like, why don't you use a black pen initially and then use a red pen on your first set of corrections and a blue pen on your third and a violet pen on your fourth? You know, that way we could always tell. But, no, he didn't do anything like that.

James (33:48)

And this is, you know, especially the case here in the. In the bits that Amroth. About Amroth, Right. That make him out to be the son of Galadriel and Celeborn. And this is another reason why Christopher, you know, places this draft after Tolkien wrote Lord of the Rings, because he points out if Amroth was their son when Lord of the Rings was written. You think that would kind of be mentioned, right?

Alan (34:10)

That would have been mentioned.

James (34:11)

Yeah.

Alan (34:11)

You'd think. I mean, that's a pretty significant change. And there's also not only no mention of the ban preventing Galadriel from returning to Valinor in this section that we're reading, but there's even an implication that she actually could have gone back and she wanted to. And that is one of the pieces of evidence that Christopher relies on to place the idea of a ban as also being post Lord of the Rings.

James (34:33)

Right. And we discussed this a little bit, the sort of going back and forth, no ban, ban, no ban. Right. Recall that the first mention of a possible ban wasn't until that 1967 letter.

Alan (34:45)

Right.

James (34:45)

And then there's the Road Goes Ever on, which came out in 68, that mentions a ban. But the reason for that ban was changed by the time he wrote the Shibboleth of Feanor, which was after 1968.

Alan (34:59)

So whether there's a ban, whether there's not a ban, why there's a band.

James (35:02)

Right.

Alan (35:03)

Changed throughout. And like we talked about last week, that makes it really hard to figure out where Tolkien was heading with this, even though at the end of last week, we talked about the writings that took place in, like, the last month of his life.

James (35:19)

Yeah, yeah.

Alan (35:20)

Where he kept sort of making Galadriel more and more blameless.

James (35:25)

Yes, yes, very much so.

Alan (35:26)

He really, really turned her into quite the character by the end.

James (35:30)

Yeah. I just want to touch on the fact that even though, you know, Christopher says, and I think this is true, that there was not a ban in place during the writing of Lord of the Rings, there is still that test that Galadriel thinks she needs to pass, and who tests it anyway?

Alan (35:44)

Right.

James (35:44)

The implication is that. Yeah, exactly. That it's perhaps her own. Her own test. If she's not under a ban, then who is it that's actually stopping her.

Alan (35:52)

And that sort of fits the idea of she doesn't feel like she can leave until Sauron is defeated. And I'm sure there's an element to that, even if there was a ban, because of the accountability and responsibility she'd feel after having founded Eregion. And then she goes off and heads over to Lorinand. Then Keller Brimbor gets suckered into all of this. She's gotta be like, man, I shouldn't have left. She's gotta have some sense of responsibility for this.

James (36:21)

Yeah. Yeah.

Alan (36:22)

So anyway, Christopher then prepares us for studying the text by telling us that what we read here is retold from the original manuscripts and that it's going to include a lot of commentary from him, always in brackets. So keep that in mind when you're reading. Sometimes it's easy to just think about the story and read the brackets almost in line. And you should, but you need to be aware of when you're reading Professor's voice versus Christopher's voice.

James (36:45)

Yeah, and we'll be sure to point that out when the change happens during our readings. But speaking of readings, Alan, would you like to continue?

Alan (36:51)

All right. Galadriel was the daughter of Finarfin and sister of Finrod Felagund. She was welcome in Doriath because her mother, Earwen, daughter of Olwe, was Telarin and the niece of Thingol, and because the people of Finarfin had had no part in the kinslaying of Aqualonde, and she became a friend of Melian. In Doriath, she met Celeborn, grandson of Elmo, the brother of Thingol, for love of Celeborn, who would not leave Middle Earth, and probably with some pride of her own, for she had been one of those eager to adventure there. She did not go west at the downfall of Melkor, but crossed Eret Lindon with Celeborn and came into Eriador. When they entered that region, there were many Noldor in their following together with Grey Elves and Green Elves. And for a while they dwelt in the country about Lake Nenwee. All even dim north of the Shire, by the way. I always call it Even Dim because I can't pronounce that correctly. So that's why I always call it even Dim. Or ever swim in Lord of the Rings online. Of course, that dates me because that means I played the game before they had the boats and you had to swim across that lake all the time. Back to the reading. Sorry about that, folks. Celeborn and Galadriel came to be regarded as Lord and Lady of the Eldar in Eriador, including the wandering companies of Nandorin origin, who had never passed west over Ered Lindon and come down into Ossiriand during their sojourn near Nenwial was born at some time between the years 350 and 400. Their son Amroth. Christopher adds here the time and place of Celebrian's birth, whether here or later in Eregion and or even later in Lorien, is not made definite. Back to the professor's text. But eventually Galadriel became aware that Sauron again, as in the ancient days of the captivity of Melkor, had been left behind. Or rather, since Sauron had as yet no single name and his operations had not been perceived to proceed from a single evil spirit. Prime servant of Melkor. She perceived that there was an evil controlling purpose abroad in the world and that it seemed to proceed from a source further to the east, beyond Eriador and the Misty Mountains. Celeborn and Galadriel therefore went eastwards about the year 700 of the second age and established the primarily, but by no means solely Noldorin realm of Eregion.

James (39:27)

So this is setting up sort of yet another version from the ones that we discussed in the last episode, and we'll get a bit into that. We start with a simple mention of Galadriel's new and improved lineage, the daughter of Finarfin and Earwen. Which means that Finrod, along with Angrod and Aegnor, are her brothers. Angrod and Aegnor were both killed in the Dagobragilac.

Alan (39:52)

That's true. Her mother is a Teleran princess. She was the daughter of King Olwe, who was of course the brother of Elwe, better known as Thingol. So this lineage on her mother's side, combined with the fact that her people were not involved in the kinslaying, and that's critical here, otherwise she would have been turned away, means that she is welcome in Doriath, where she cozies up to Melian, who's frankly probably just grateful to have somebody to actually listen to her for a change.

James (40:17)

Yeah, and I don't think Doriath came up in our previous discussions of versions of where Celeborn was.

Alan (40:25)

I don't think so.

James (40:27)

Only I think in looking forward to this, I think this is a new version. And in this version, like we said, there are plenty of versions, she meets Celeborn in Doriath. I mean, it's been mentioned before being A grandson of the third brother, Elmo. We did talk about that, but he's being in Doriath seems new. It does.

Alan (40:45)

Now, we're never told whether Elwe, Olwe and Elmo even have parents because they were in Cuivien. And so they might have been the original ones. But for purposes of determining kinship relationships, let's assume they did, because otherwise, how do you figure out cousin degrees? So in that case, in this scenario, Galadriel and Celeborn are second cousins. They share not a grandparents, but a great grandparent. So crisis averted. I mean, we talked about them being first cousins.

James (41:13)

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. In one version. In one version, they almost certainly are. I really. I really suspect all the Way and All Way were original.

Alan (41:21)

I do too. Yeah, they were the OGs, the 144.

James (41:24)

A couple of reasons. One. One is that they were chosen as the ambassadors to go on the original.

Alan (41:29)

For the Te. Yeah, for that tribe. They were called that at the time. I forgot what they were called.

James (41:34)

It changes all the time. It's true.

Alan (41:36)

When were they called it? Right.

James (41:38)

Yeah. But I mean, I was toying for a while with the idea that most of the ways, the people whose names end in we were Original, there are exceptions to this. You can't rely entirely on that, but it mostly works. It does seem more prominent name among the older generation. One of the reasons I like that theory is because Ciodan's name is, of course. No way. That's not a joke. His name was no Way. And I really do like to think of Kirdan as being only the original 144, because there's just. There's something really poetic about him being the last to leave and also the

Alan (42:17)

first born and wanting to have left originally. Like the fact that he sacrificed so much.

James (42:21)

Sorry, any excuse to bring up.

Alan (42:23)

Oh, you don't have to apologize for mentioning Cirdon on this show. You have to apologize for mentioning Feanor. But not.

James (42:29)

I didn't. You did. But anyway.

Alan (42:30)

I know. And we'll mention him again, actually.

James (42:34)

And it's this next line that not only confirms the lack of a band, but it actually tells us quite the opposite. The only reason she didn't go back to Valinor at the end of the first age was because she loved Celeborn and he wouldn't leave. Okay. Also a bit about her own pride, of course.

Alan (42:51)

That's right. Now, where does that fit with the other reasons why she didn't go back? Setting aside even the ones where she's banned, there were other versions where There was no ban where she was motivated by her own needs.

James (43:05)

Yeah. This seems like a lighter version of that.

Alan (43:08)

Right.

James (43:08)

It sort of touches on this idea. It's not talking about Dominion and all that sort of stuff, but it's the same sentiment. It's just sort of in a weakened form. You know, she still had. She still had things to achieve.

Alan (43:20)

Yeah.

James (43:20)

Doesn't quite speak it so strongly. It's mostly Celeborn. Yeah. And he wouldn't leave.

Alan (43:26)

Yeah. And he doesn't leave for a very long time, as we talked about last time. He's. He's on that last boat with Ciridan.

James (43:33)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Alan (43:34)

So, yeah. Instead, at the beginning of the Second Age, she and Celeborn go together over the Ered Lindon, soon to become the Ered Luin. I guess they're still the Ered Lindon if you're not being chased by a giant wave. That's sort of like, what do they. When do they change the name? Well, they change the name when the continent goes away. And when they did this, they had quite the collection of followers. They had the Noldor, of course, that would be her father's folk, but also Grey Elves. So these are the Sindar. These are the Teleran elves, who never made it to Aman, but had made it into Belerian. They're the ones that lived under Thingol's rule in Doriath.

James (44:09)

Right. As well as Green Elves of Assyrian, the Laiquendi. These are also of the same kindred, the Teleri, but they're a subset of the Nandor. They left the Great Journey on the east side of the Misty Mountains, the Nandor split into two again. There's the Silvan Elves, who remained on that side of the mountains, and the Laiquendi, the Green Elves of Assyrian that did make it over to Beleriand. So if Galadriel and Celeborn had Green Elves in their following when they left Beleriand, they would be, by definition the Lykwyndi, because otherwise wouldn't have been in Beleriand.

Alan (44:41)

That's right. The Sylvan Elves are the ones back on the other side of the Misty

James (44:44)

Mountains there in the Great Forest.

Alan (44:47)

Exactly. And they're the ones that they will end up ruling over. Silvan Elves in Lorien. Of course. That's many Sylvan Elves there, but, yeah, not in this case.

James (44:56)

And then their people are said to have settled around, even Dim. And this is, I think, the first mention of this location. I don't think any of the other versions we talked about up in the

Alan (45:05)

northwest of Middle Earth. It's not. No.

James (45:07)

This seems a lot more focused on Eriador, as opposed to. Like in the other versions, they were either in Lindon or they were in Lorien.

Alan (45:16)

Right.

James (45:16)

They kind of skip. Never in between in Eridor, but here. Here they actually move to kind of a central northern part of. Of Eriador, just north of the Shire, even dim. Yeah. And they were called the Lord and Lady of the Eldar.

Alan (45:30)

I do think it's interesting. They're never king and queen ever. And we'll get to that. We'll get to the fact that they don't take that title, but it is interesting. And this idea that they're Lord and Lady of the Eldar. Right. Of all the Eldar, that's even true of those Silvan elves, the ones that we mentioned earlier that didn't get over to Belerian. So those would be the elves of Nandarin origin who never reached Osirian. So they are in the same tribe of the Teleri, but they never made it over. So they're not Laiquendi, they're the Nandor that remained behind the Silvan elves. So in this version, which, again, I want to remind you, folks, is written after the Lord of the Rings, their son Amroth is said to have been born between second age 350 to 400. While no detail is provided about Celebrian's birth here or later in their journeys, just isn't clear. What about the idea of Amroth as their son? James, this is such an interesting concept.

James (46:21)

Yeah. I mean, if it comes later, why. Why does Tolkien feel the need for.

Alan (46:27)

Why change the. Why add a son? I mean, Amaroth was a character that existed in his story. We read about him in the Lord of the Rings. Legolas tells us about him. Yeah, but now you're elevating him to the status of the son of Galadriel and Celebor.

James (46:43)

Yeah.

Alan (46:44)

I wonder why. Yeah, I'm not sure I like it in one sense. You know, we talk a lot about loss being a central theme in the Lord of the Rings. And I'll tell you, the idea of Amroth being their son doubles that sense of loss for them because of what happens with their daughter Celebrian, who, of course, as we know, you know, marries Elrond and then gets ambushed by Orcs and quite possibly very, very bad things happen to her. And then she. She leaves for. For Valinor.

James (47:13)

They.

Alan (47:14)

They lost her. They're gonna lose their granddaughter, Arwen, who's going to become mortal, could possibly lose their grandsons for the same reason. We don't know what happened with Eladon and Elro here. But now to also lose their son in this tragic thing that we'll get to either next week or the week after. I think next week. Yeah. It really weighs heavily on them.

James (47:35)

Yeah.

Alan (47:35)

And I feel like maybe that's why he was toying with the idea, like to make it even more poignant, more.

James (47:41)

Yeah.

Alan (47:42)

I don't know. Feels like piling off.

James (47:44)

Yeah.

Alan (47:45)

She's had enough, man.

James (47:46)

Yeah, exactly. But this next part's interesting. She. She sort of smells evil in the air, Right. It's Sauron, but it's not Sauron. Right?

Alan (47:54)

That's right.

James (47:55)

She senses that there's this evil power.

Alan (47:57)

Yeah.

James (47:58)

Almost as an evil force going on.

Alan (48:01)

Yeah.

James (48:01)

But she hasn't pinned it down to a specific person.

Alan (48:06)

The Midi Chlorians haven't. No, no, no, no. We're not going there. Yeah. It's. It's an unidentified source at this point. She doesn't know that it's Sauron. But I thought it was interesting that the text even says that Sauron himself had as yet no single name. But he did in the first Age. He was Sauron then. Well, he wasn't Sauron. I mean, he was, but he had a name. Is it that he didn't? That's an interesting idea that he had as yet no single name. Yeah, I'm not sure what that. And yet his operations had not been proceeded to proceed from a single evil spirit. So it's like it's not focalized enough.

James (48:50)

Right. I mean, is it just that there's lots of things going on, there's different names for the people behind the different things going on, and no one's put the pieces together and realized it's all the same person? Yeah.

Alan (49:02)

I mean, I think we get a phrase in the next reading, residue of Evil, that really speaks to this. I think it's sort of this idea of just sort of Morgoth's leftovers, in a way.

James (49:13)

Yeah. Yeah. But I'm also wondering if it's just sort of. Well, of course, you know, in the Hobbit we have the Necromancer without the realization of who the necromancer is. But I'm even thinking of things like the fact that we have the morning star and the evening star, and only later was it realized, although earlier than people think was realized, that they're the same. Yeah. I wonder if it's that sort of thing. Like there's this. Well, there's this dark king in the east and then there's also the necromancer in Mirkwood. And there's this depending on the time Sarah gets around. Yeah, right. And people haven't realized that they're actually the same person.

Alan (49:52)

Exactly.

James (49:53)

Yeah.

Alan (49:53)

Corporate wants you to tell the difference between these two.

James (50:00)

I was actually thinking of Steve Jobs announcement of the. The iPhone where he goes. You do get it. They're not three different things. This is one device.

Alan (50:11)

Oh, man.

James (50:12)

A dark lord, a king in the east, a necromancer, a dark lord, a king in the east and a necromancer. Do you get it? These aren't three people. These are.

Alan (50:21)

That's right. It's one thing.

James (50:24)

But anyway, it's coming from the east. Whatever this is, it's coming from the other side of the Misty Mountains. So they pack up and head that way.

Alan (50:30)

Interestingly though, they don't move to directly challenge this source of evil. You know, they don't move to the other side of the Misty Mountains. They just move closer to it. From Evendim to the realm of Eregion, which they set up around second age 700. And I want to note, this is the same year that Aldarien was born. So it's about 100 years after Veontur's first voyage to Middle Earth. Now, as to why she sets this up and why here and all of these things, we'll get to that in the next section. One of the bits of wisdom I've learned over the years is that a quality wardrobe, it doesn't require a closet full of choices. You just need pieces that are flexible, mix well with each other. And last, that's been especially helpful over the last few years with how busy I've been with the podcast and all the related travel too. And that's where Quince really shines. Everyday essentials made with premium fabrics and designed to be versatile and dependable even when the seasons begin to change. I've been telling you about their clothes for a long time now, and for good reason. Quince has the day to day pieces that I love. Built with quality that lasts. From their lightweight cashmere sweaters to their really comfy jeans. From linen shorts for the summer to tees in 100% Pima cotton. I've worn my cashmere Henley throughout my cool California winter. Looks great. Feels like it costs twice as much as it really does. Quince works directly with the best factories, ones that meet their high standards. Not just for craftsmanship but but ethical production practices and they cut out the middleman so that you get high quality clothing at affordable prices. Right now. Go to quince.com pony for free shipping and 365 day returns. That's a full year to build your wardrobe and love it and you will now available in Canada too. Don't keep settling for clothes that don't last. Go to Quote for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com pony

James (52:38)

hi, I'm Deborah Treisman, Fiction Editor of the New Yorker and host

Alan (52:42)

of the New Yorker Fiction Podcast. On the podcast, I ask a great contemporary writer to select a favorite story from the magazine's almost hundred year archive

James (52:51)

to read and discuss. Together we delve into the story, exploring its themes, its style, and what makes fiction work. You can listen to authors like Ottessa

Alan (53:01)

Moshfegh talk about why we write story or attaching a story or creating a story. Is this inclination that we all have to stop spinning.

James (53:15)

And you can hear writers like George Saunders describe discuss the nature of storytelling on the first read. You accept these things as descriptions and they make you see the scene, but every line is a chance to inflect the reader's mind.

Alan (53:27)

You'll discover new favorite authors and read old favorites in new ways. Episodes of the New Yorker Fiction Podcast

James (53:34)

are released on the 1st of every month. Listen and follow wherever you get your podcasts.

Alan (53:48)

Now. Soon we'll get back to the Residue of Evil. But before we do, I want to take a minute to thank the amazing community that has grown up around this show over the past 10 years. After all, there is a lot more talk going on at the Prancing Pony Podcast than just us.

James (54:02)

The PPP really does have a warm and welcoming listener community. If you've got questions or just want to talk about how much you love Middle Earth, be sure to check out our Common Room on Facebook and across all social media. On Facebook, just look for the Prancing Pony Podcast. Yeah, there's a page, but you're going to want to join the group for that great fan community.

Alan (54:19)

Now on every social media platform other than Facebook, we are prancingponypod and you can find our subreddit @r prancingponypod and please check out my Daily show, today's Tolkien Times on YouTube and all your favorite podcast apps. Get your daily Middle Earth fix there with everything from Tolkien Tuesdays to Third Age Thursdays. Be sure to watch or listen at YouTube.com prancingponypod James would you tell us all about the residue of evil and can we. Do we need Windex to clean this up, or is this like a formula 409 sort of problem? How do we get rid of the

James (54:53)

residue of evil Sandblaster?

Alan (54:54)

Yeah, exactly. Power Wash. All right.

James (54:59)

Celeborn had no liking for dwarves of any race as he showed to Gimli in Lothlorien.

Alan (55:06)

Oh, that's the reference.

James (55:07)

We found the reference.

Alan (55:08)

That's the.

James (55:10)

I knew once we read it we

Alan (55:12)

would get like, ding, there it was perfect.

James (55:15)

There you go, folks. You heard it here first. There we go. We found it. We found it. Gimli had no liking for doors for any race as he showed to Gimli in Lothlorien, and never forgave them for their part in the destruction of Doriath. But it was only the host of Nogrod that took place took part in that assault, and it was destroyed in the battle of Sarn Athrad. The dwarves of Belegost were filled with dismay at the calamity and fear for its outcome, and this hastened their departure eastward to Khazad Dum. There's a footnote here, Christopher says, that reminds us that it is said in appendix A3 to the Lord of the Rings that the ancient cities of Nogrod and Belegost were ruined in the breaking of Thangorodrin. So this is actually another reference, because this is Tolkien in a footnote talking about Lord of the Rings appendix. So that's yet more evidence of being post Lord of the Rings. But in that tale of years, Christopher says, we read that around year 40 of the Second Age, many dwarves leaving their old cities in Ered Luin go to Moria and swell its numbers. Thus, the dwarves of Moria may be presumed to have been innocent of the ruin of Doriath and not hostile to the Elves. In any case, Galadriel was more far sighted in this than Celeborn, and she perceived from the beginning that Middle Earth could not be saved from the residue of evil that Morgoth had left behind him, saved by a union of all the peoples who were, in their way and their measure, opposed to him. She looked upon the dwarves also with the eye of a commander, seeing in them the finest warriors to pit against the Orcs. Moreover, Galadriel was a Noldo, and she had a natural sympathy with their minds and their passionate love of crafts of hand, sympathy much greater than that found among many of the Eldar. The dwarves were the children of Aule, and Galadriel, like others of the Noldor, had been a pupil of Aule and Yavanna in Valinor.

Alan (57:20)

All right, so we did have to skip a little something at the start of this reading. Let's go and cover it now. One of the possible reasons why Galadriel and Celeborn set up shop here in Holland was because she knew about the dwarves in Khazad Dum.

James (57:32)

Yeah. And given there were still Dwarves on the inland side of the Ered Linden, the Ered Luin, even though no Grod and Belegost were destroyed. And given that we know they'd moved much of their population to Khazad Dum, the tale of years tells us that around year 40 of the second age quote, many Dwarves leaving their old cities in Ered Luin go to Moria and swell its numbers.

Alan (57:54)

So obviously she would have in the 700 years that passed since they settled in even Dimm. Especially because that's not that far from that east west road. Galadriel would have been made aware of those movements of the Dwarves. The migrations.

James (58:08)

Yeah, yeah. And now we pick up with the reading that Celeborn wasn't a fan of the Dwarves at all, regardless of which house they belong to.

Alan (58:17)

Color me shocked. Yeah, I mean, he recalled the destruction of Doriath, the killing of Thingol, bleeding out from all these wounds to the calves. He's just the Dwarves reaching up and stabbing him with their steely knives and never reaching above the knee because he's like eight and a half feet tall. So the killing of thing, all the theft of the now Glamir, of course. And the thing though is that. And this is where Celeborn's weakness is, we recall. We know that the dwarves that committed that atrocity were from one house only. They were the dwarves of no Grod. They belonged to. I think it was the Firebeards. They were not of the house of Durin and they weren't even in the same house as the other dwarves in Belegost.

James (58:56)

Right. And those dwarves of Nogard were then destroyed in the battle of Sarnathrad. The other dwarves in Belegost of the broadbeams had advised them against the attack in the first place.

Alan (59:07)

Yeah.

James (59:07)

And ended up leaving in droves for Moria.

Alan (59:10)

It is the place of a friend to tell a friend when he's about to do something really stupid. See, it works for Dwarves. It's like it works for elves. Now, despite Celeborn's misgivings, the text here is telling us we can assume as readers that Durin's folk were innocent of the ruin of Doriath. And were not hostile to the elves. And though Celeborn is wise, it's not like he's the trophy husband. We surmised last week. It is true that in this case at least Galadriel can see the long view a bit better than her husband. She's not blinded by this bias.

James (59:41)

Yeah, basically that we can't clean up the residue of evil unless we all come together. Men, Elves and dwarves.

Alan (59:48)

There we go. So it is sort of that. That's your kitchen cleaner for the residue of evil. It's soylent green. It's not simple green.

James (59:58)

It's not just people, it's. It's men and elves and dwarves.

Alan (60:02)

Oh, man.

James (60:03)

It's the new improved recipe for soda.

Alan (60:07)

Sorry, folks. My apologies.

James (60:10)

Yeah.

Alan (60:11)

How do you clean the residue of evil? Wow. I don't think we want to know.

James (60:14)

All right, let's move on. She also saw the practical aspects, Right. These guys are tough. They're the perfect counter to the Orcs.

Alan (60:21)

Absolutely.

James (60:21)

Especially in mountain tunnels. Notice she that the word commander comes up. So there's a little bit of that. Oh, I could be their commander.

Alan (60:29)

I could be in charge.

James (60:31)

Finally, there's an affinity.

Alan (60:32)

I don't know. You watch her interactions with Gimli and I think she relishes sort of that. That the looking up to her, literally and metaphorically, that. That she gets from Gimli.

James (60:42)

Finally, there's an affinity between the Noldor and the Dwarves with the way their mind works, their love of craft.

Alan (60:47)

Exactly. And that's an affinity that doesn't exist between Dwarves and either of the other groups of Elves. Reminder, though. This last line tells us that Galadriel was once a pupil of Aule and Yavanna. Now I want to talk about this for a little bit. Aule we think of. Certainly that fits, right. We think of the Noldor being craftsmen. We think of the Dwarves as being craftsmen. And they were both very strongly connected to Aule. But being a people of Yavanna, something else altogether. How do you think that influenced Galadriel? I mean, if she's a people of both, what influence does Yavanna have?

James (61:28)

Yeah, I'm wondering if it's a sort of balancing impact on. I mean, we're going to get into the sort of technology and aspect of it. I wonder if it's that sort of thing that in some senses followers of Aule, unchecked, go one way. Yavana's kind of a balancing effect to say no, you know, technology is fine as long as nature. Nature and so on. Yeah, exactly.

Alan (61:55)

Living creatures.

James (61:56)

Yeah.

Alan (61:56)

I guess in a way, it's the influence of Yavanna that. That keeps Lothlorien from turning into a strip mine, you know?

James (62:05)

Yeah. It's sort of interesting that. That's what I suspect.

Alan (62:09)

Yeah. It does seem like that's sort of the balance. I mean, you know, I think of other people who are pupils of the Maiar or the Valar, I should say. So I'm thinking of Gandalf being a pupil of Nienna and how that taught him pity. And so I was trying to think, like, what is it that Yavana teaches here? And I think you're right, because certainly when we see the chapter of Ali and Yavana, they are two sides of. They are opposites attract, you know.

James (62:35)

Right.

Alan (62:36)

He's very much the craftsman. He's very much, you know, stone and what's in the earth. And she's like, no, no, no. What roams the Earth and what lives on the earth is important.

James (62:46)

I can't help but think of that moment with the gift of the wood. The Numenoreans are kind of like, wow, you could make really strong masks with this. And the elves are like. You do what with it?

Alan (62:57)

We just look at the shade.

James (62:59)

We like the flowers that.

Alan (63:03)

I love that illustration because it's such a strong, clear division between how the men of Numenor utilize a resource and how the elves honor a living thing.

James (63:16)

And also just how culturally, it can be such a shock as to what people do with a thing. It reminds me when I visited Peru, a sort of local delicacy, I guess, is guinea pigs. They eat guinea pigs. You can get guinea pigs on the roadside. Roasted guinea pigs. No, but here's the funny thing they. The guide said to me at one point in disgust, I hear in your country you have them as pets. And I just thought it was. It was so funny that from their point of view, because they view it as a food, they thought it was disgusting. Disgusting that they would be pets. Just like. Just like your disgust at the fact that we would eat them. Right. It's just sort of funny. It's the same sort of reaction to the. To the. To the wood that the elves versus the Numenoreans have.

Alan (64:02)

Well, I was picturing, like, a corn dog shaped like a guinea pig, and it really made me just kind of cringe.

James (64:08)

Yeah.

Alan (64:08)

I don't know how they serve them, but yikes.

James (64:11)

On a little spit, basically.

Alan (64:13)

Oh, God. A little rotisserie.

James (64:15)

Yeah, rotisserie guinea pigs, but yeah, it's just so. It's that same Sort of thing. Right. The elves are just. The elves can't comprehend, like, why would

Alan (64:23)

you use it this way?

James (64:23)

That you would chop down this tree when the flowers are so beautiful. Beautiful. And the leaves are so beautiful.

Alan (64:27)

Yeah. And it gives such great shade and. Yeah, well, why wouldn't I? I need masks for my ships so I can go conquer the world.

James (64:34)

So I think that's a little bit of that Aule Yavanna perspectives there, I think.

Alan (64:40)

Gee, Aldarian, what are we going to do tonight? Same thing we do every night, Pinky. Try to take over Middle Earth. Wasn't Saruman also of Aule? Probably not. Aule and Yavana a little.

James (64:54)

Little more Ally, little less Ivana.

Alan (64:56)

Yeah, exactly. And do you think they knew each other when Solomon was. What was he Kurumo, when he was. Yeah, I don't know. That's just a. I don't think there's an answer to that question. It's just an interesting thing to think about. Like, because even Sauron, I think, was also originally said to be of Aule's people. Or Melkor. I can't remember where that is, possibly.

James (65:21)

Yeah, yeah, that sounds vaguely familiar. But anyway, let's. We're going to get a bit more into obsession with crafts and so on. If you want to continue our reading with yet another person that came under the influence of this, I will.

Alan (65:34)

And yet also somebody who ended up on a rotisserie. Galadriel and Celeborn had in their company a Noldorin craftsman named Celebrimbor. And then we'll skip a bit in the text and we'll cover it in discussion. Celebrimbor had an almost Dwarvish obsession with crafts and he soon became the chief artificer of Eregion, entering into a close relationship with the dwarves of Khazad Dum, among whom his greatest friend was Narvi. And Christopher here interjects to remind us in the inscription on the West Gate of Moria, Gandalf read the words. Im Narvi hayn ehant Celebrimbor o Eregion Teithant Ihu hinn I Narvi made them. Celebrimbor of Holland drew these signs. Now back to the text. Both elves and dwarves had great profit from this association so that Eregion became far stronger and Khazad Dum far more beautiful than either would have done alone. Christopher then reminds us that this account of the origin of Eregion agrees with what is told in of the Rings of Power, but neither there Nor in the brief references in Appendix B to the Lord of the Rings, is there any mention of the presence of Galadriel and Celeborn. Indeed, in the latter, again, in the revised edition, only Celebrimbor is called the Lord of Eregion. And then we go back to the text. These little interjections are super helpful. Yeah, it's like, whoa, that's a very good point. I'm glad you mentioned that.

James (67:07)

All right.

Alan (67:09)

The building of the chief city of Eregion, Ost in Eddil, was begun in about the year 750 SA, the date that is given in the Tale of years for the founding of Eregion by the Noldor. News of these things came to the ears of Sauron and increased the fears that he felt concerning the coming of the Numenoreans to Lindon and the coasts further south and their friendship with Gil Galad. And he heard tell also of Aldarion, son of Tar Meneldur, the king of Numenor, now become a great shipbuilder who brought his vessels to haven far down into the Harad. Sauron, therefore, left Eriador alone for a while, and he chose the land of Mordor, as it was afterwards called, for a stronghold as a counter to the threat of the Numenorean landings. When he felt himself to be secure, he sent emissaries to Eriador. And finally, in about the year 1200 of the second Age, came himself, wearing the fairest form that he could contrive.

James (68:13)

Starting to get into some familiar territory here. But before we get to that, we find out that one of the Noldor that's hanging around with Galadriel and Celeborn, when they established Eregion was a craftsman by the name of Celebrimbor. And we didn't read the bit in the text that tells us there are actually two versions. Originally a survivor of Gondolin, one of Turgon's great craftsmen, and then one of Feanor's descendants, as he's described in Appendix B. And the Silmarillion, that would have been

Alan (68:42)

interesting, by the way, if they just made him into a survivor of Gondolin and not necessarily related to Feanor, but certainly it gives us some insight into the obsession with crafting that he has here that he's said to have, that leads him to become the chief artificer of the region and to become friends with the dwarves, especially with Narvi. And we get that lovely Sindarin of the text that's engraved on the doors of Durin, along with the mention of how just how profitable for both sides this relationship was between the Noldor and the house of Durin. Right. The Dwarves strength lends strength to region. And Khazad Dum gets a makeover. I mean, I can just see the elves doing a, you know, a house, you know, home improvement show on how to make your place look more beautiful. Yeah.

James (69:29)

I just want to bring up one thing about the doors of Durin, and that's one thing that sometimes gets talked about, is why in that inscription is it referred to as Moria.

Alan (69:39)

Yes, that is a very good question. Because, of course, the Dwarves wouldn't call it that black pit.

James (69:45)

But I think it's interesting, though, that it's made clear that the actual writing was done by Celebrimborne. So it's a nice little. I'm wondering if it's kind of like Keller Brimbo is going to write.

Alan (69:59)

I don't want to. I don't want to write out Khazad Doom. It's really long. I'm just going to write Moria. It's a bit of a pit.

James (70:04)

It's a bit of a pit, to be honest. I mean, I like. I like Navi, but, yeah, Narvi's a

Alan (70:10)

nice guy, but this place is a

James (70:11)

bit of a pit.

Alan (70:12)

When we get together, he comes to my place because I'm not going there.

James (70:17)

And then there's the, as you said, helpful bracketed statement from Christopher reminding us that while this fully agrees with the story of Eregion in Otropata, we don't get any mention there. Or in the Tale of Years, of the presence of Galadriel and Celeborn.

Alan (70:31)

Isn't that interesting?

James (70:32)

And in fact, in the Tale of Years, Celebrimbor is described as the Lord of Eregion. Yeah.

Alan (70:37)

So I guess. I mean, that tells us, I guess, when of the Rings of Power in the Third Age was originally written, it must have been written before he changed his mind about what Galadriel and Celeborn were doing here. But if this is all written post Lord of the Rings, was Tolkien originally envisioning sort of. Okay, one of the versions that we looked at last week was she found Celeborn in Lorien, where he was already king.

James (71:01)

Right.

Alan (71:02)

Was that maybe the version of the story that he was thinking of when he first wrote the Tale of Years and Celebrimbor was the Lord of Eregion?

James (71:11)

Maybe.

Alan (71:12)

Because then neither Galadriel or Celeborn have anything to do with Eregion it's all at that point. Galadriel finds Celeborn separately in Lorien, where he's king, and they've got nothing to do with Eregion. But here we have this full story.

James (71:25)

It seems like Tolkien was headed in that direction. Again, this is something that I think when you read different versions, it's important to get a sense of when they were written to know that's true, whether they were something that Tolkien came from or was headed to. It seems like unlike. I think I probably made this mistake too in thinking that maybe some of the stuff that's unearthed you think of as being older. Oh, this is alternative version where Galadriel and Celeborn were in Eregion. That must be the older version, because the version that's actually published is that Celebrimbor is Lord of Aragon. But it's actually not the case.

Alan (72:02)

No, it written much, much later.

James (72:03)

The published version gives that. And then it seems like Tolkien was maybe changing his mind and later on decided that maybe Galadriel and Celeborn were there.

Alan (72:13)

And that's the tricky thing. I mean, just coming back to a sort of a meta thing that we've talked about on the show from year one, which is what is the canon of the legendarium. Right. I don't think it can be defined very well because it was constantly in flux.

James (72:26)

The interesting thing, which I think we've touched on a few times in these episodes, is that even Lord of the Rings.

Alan (72:33)

Oh, yeah.

James (72:33)

Is shifting. I mean, obviously the Hobbit is, but even Lord of the Rings. Right. We saw those changes.

Alan (72:37)

The Hobbit shifts were bigger and more obvious, but the Lord of the Rings changed from first edition to second edition. And then, you know, we can talk about the changes beforehand when it was a series of drafts, but then we could talk about the changes that would have happened after had Tolkien had a chance to go back and redo it again.

James (72:52)

Yeah.

Alan (72:52)

Which would have been the ban and how Galadriel and Celeborn met and all of these other things. Yeah, it's really interesting. Yeah. It does make it hard to decide, like, how did history actually go? But like we talked about in the intro when we were talking about Mike Drought's book, it is these contradictions, these various inconsiderate versions and inconsistencies that remind us of just how real this story feels like. Here we are arguing about which alternate version we should believe.

James (73:22)

Right.

Alan (73:22)

And they're all made up.

James (73:24)

They're all made up. But it's still. It's exactly the Kind of thing that you. You have discussions about with whether it's the Bible or medieval things, when you're talking about, you know, which version of King Arthur. Yeah, yeah. That whole idea of, well, you're getting your different stories being told from different

Alan (73:40)

points of view over different periods of time by different time cultures or even languages in some cases.

James (73:46)

It's fascinating.

Alan (73:47)

It really, really is. It lends a historical sense to this that makes it feel as real as those actual stories.

James (73:55)

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Alan (73:57)

So we move on to their realm of Eregion and the creation of its capital, Ost in Edhil, which they started to build about 50 years after they begin their move southeast from Nenwiel.

James (74:07)

Right. And that's 752nd age according to Appendix B, not just for the creation of Ost in Edel, but for the establishment of Eregion as a whole.

Alan (74:16)

Makes sense.

James (74:16)

And shocker. Sauron gets word of the elves moving closer to his part of the world. Neighborhood's getting a little too small all these days.

Alan (74:24)

Well, that's your fault, Sauron. You didn't establish an HOA that forbade the. The development of.

James (74:30)

Yeah. Are you saying he's a bit of a nimby? Is that what you're telling me?

Alan (74:35)

Look at his zoning laws. I mean, you know, he's. He knows about the arrival of the Numenoreans and how Eldarion has established his friendship with Gil Galad. So we know where we are in terms of history. I want to discuss this one line, though, that he's a great shipbuilder who brought his vessels to Haven, far down into the Harad. I'm looking Back to my 11 episodes on Eldarion and Arrendus. I don't recall. I know that there were times where it talked about him going further south. I can't recall off the top of my head if there's actually a mention of the Harad. That's certainly an interesting thing that he went that far south because, I mean, that's a long way from Lindon. And we know he went to Lindon because he established that friendship.

James (75:14)

I mean, it's also interesting because he steps away, he chooses Mordor for his new home. And I mean, we know this from the tale of years, that the establishment in Mordor was primarily a response to the Numenoreans.

Alan (75:27)

Right.

James (75:28)

The new bit of information we get here is that Eldarion is visiting the

Alan (75:35)

Harad and that up and down these whole.

James (75:38)

Specifically. Yeah, but that move specifically to the south is when Sauron is presumably thinking, okay, I need to establish a stronghold in the south. If they're going all the way down there, that's where I need to establish a fortress.

Alan (75:54)

That makes sense. Far enough away from Lindon and far enough away from the elves, because that's really the only kingdom of the elves at this point. I mean, Rivendell doesn't exist yet, and Eregion is literally just being established as we speak. But at this point, you've got the Numenoreans beginning to come into Middle Earth. They're going to start. They've already Vignolande where it already exists and had been destroyed a couple of times. We are still a ways off from the Numenoreans, certainly the faithful Numenoreans living in this area. Like Pelargir. Dolamroth. That's. Pelargir was 2350. Dol Amroth is around the same time. Though it's not called Dol Amroth at that point. It's just Belfalas. But yeah, it's interesting that he plans here in Mordor. I suppose part of it's just the mountains, the physical defense of this region, while still being in an area where I can get through Calenardhun and go up into Eregion or I can go down into the Harad with relative ease.

James (76:54)

Yeah. It's also interesting that Numenor is such a concern for him, even though we've got elves around. Right. Yeah. It's the Numenoreans that really seem to rattle.

Alan (77:05)

They really do. And yet again, around second age 1000, long before they have become the dominant force that they're going to be before they become sort of that imperial, you know, colonizing force that they become later on, as we read about in Tell Elmar.

James (77:22)

Yeah, it's interesting that he. I mean, there's this obviously whole development that's going to happen that he thinks at some point that he can just deceive the elves. He knows men are going to be easy to deceive. And yet he's scared of the Numenoreans and so thinks. And maybe that's just sheer force rather than intellect or will or something. Right. That he mean.

Alan (77:43)

Yeah, he knows. You think about what he does at the end there with Ar Pharazon. He knows he himself could manipulate, but he knows they're going to come with a mighty force. They have a powerful, powerful armed forces. But again, in the year 1000, they don't have much. They're not projecting force.

James (78:00)

No. And yet his plan is I need to build a fortress against the Numenoreans. And he's thinking about deceiving the Elves.

Alan (78:11)

It's interesting, because where else would he have set up shop? I mean, if you're Sauron at this point around second age, 1000, I guess it's too late now to pick Eregion, because the elves have just chosen that well.

James (78:22)

But, I mean, he was doing stuff around Eriador, right? I mean, that's the.

Alan (78:26)

So where.

James (78:27)

Because he leaves. He basically retreats.

Alan (78:30)

He leaves the region, goes to Mordor. We know that certainly he had influence over some of the Men of the Mountains. Right? Because these are the same men who would later worship Sauron and become the Men of the Mountain that pledge their loyalty to Isildur and then turn their backs on him. So there's been some influence there, but certainly no stronghold.

James (78:52)

Yeah.

Alan (78:53)

Yeah.

James (78:53)

But once he's all safe and secure in his dark homeland, he sends some of his people to the region of Eridor, Just not Eregion. So after a thousand, but before 1200, perhaps around the time Ta Ancalames took the Scepter, which was in 1075, Aldarion would then die in 1098.

Alan (79:12)

I think that's an important thing to point out, because if he's sending his emissaries all around the region of Eriador, and he's doing this after he's built Mordor as a counter to Numenor, around 1000, but we know it's before 1200. I don't think this is coincidental that it's possibly or even likely happening during Ancalame's reign and not during Eldarion's. Eldarion knew there was a threat. Right. We go back to Meneldur, the letter that Gil Galad wrote to Meneldur. A new shadow arises in the East. It is no tyranny of evil men, as your son believes. But a servant of Morgoth is stirring, and evil things wake again. Eldarion would later get that letter. He would know at that point that his original idea, that it was a tyranny of evil men was wrong. He's now going to be the king. He's now establishing this relationship with the good Galad and sending aid. So he acts on that letter as king. But by the same token, Ancalome doesn't care. After the death of Tar EL DARIEN In 1098, we read that she neglected all her father's policies and gave no further aid to Gil Galad in Lindon. So I'm placing this 1100 to 1200 rather than 1000 to 1100. In terms of his spread of disinformation, his spread of emissaries in Eriador, it's interesting. It definitely is kind of fun to see how this fits with Eldarion and Arindis from earlier this season and that unfortunate choice of Ancholames. Because I look back at On Calumet's reign, I realize how much of it was just like Sarah and I talked about generational trauma. You know, she. What a terrible family to grow up in. What if she had grown up in a decent family? You know, what if mom and dad didn't hate each other? Does she end up seeing the wisdom in pursuing this course and being a different queen? Certainly she's not likely to be the terrible grandmother she is. Forbidding her granddaughters from marrying and all of this other stuff that she does. Basically disowning her son. I mean, she's an awful human being and she's awful for reasons, but you just can't help but wonder, like the what if? And the repercussions of Aldarin and Horrendous that keep on coming down.

James (81:26)

Yeah, yeah. Coming back to the text, this sending of emissaries happens before showing up himself. Sauron. This is in 1200. Yeah, 1200 is also the year that that Numenor is said to be to begin building permanent havens.

Alan (81:41)

Oh, that is interesting. So it's very much, almost certain to be in an Calumny's reign that the emissaries go out. But then after that, they start building those permanent havens, which we talked about at the beginning of the Tal Omar story as trying to help us pin down when that was taking place. The timeline is getting pretty busy. I mean, we've got all sorts of stuff going on, because we might even have folk in the hills of Agar at this point in the timeline, wherever that is, wherever that may be. The mouth of the Isen, mouth of the Morthon. Someplace altogether different. I have no idea. It's interesting to see that things are really changing in Eriador and things are starting to move. And it's happening across the board, from men to elves to Sauron to even the Men of Darkness, possibly. It's tax season, and at Lifelock, we know you're tired of numbers, but here's a big one you need to hear. Billions. That's the amount of money and refunds the IRS has flagged for possible identity fraud. Now here's another big number. 100 million. That's how many data points Lifelock monitors every second if your identity is stolen, we'll fix it. Guaranteed. One last big number. Save up to 40% your first year. Visit lifelock.com podcast for the threats you can't control. Terms apply.

James (83:10)

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Alan (83:27)

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James (83:45)

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Alan (83:56)

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James (84:17)

Galadriel striving to counteract the machinations of Sauron was successful in Laurenand, while in Lindon Gil Galad shut out Sauron's emissaries and even Sauron himself. But Sauron had better fortune with the Noldor of Eregion, and especially with Celebrimbor, who desired in his heart to rival the skill and fame of Feanor. Christopher points out here that the cozening of the Smiths of Eregion by Sauron and his giving himself the name Annatar, Lord of Gifts, is told in of the Rings of Power, but there is no mention of Galadriel coming back to the text. In Eregion, Sauron posed as an emissary of the Valar sent by them to Middle Earth, thus anticipating the Istari, or ordered by them to remain there to give aid to the elves. He perceived at once that Galadriel would be his chief adversary and obstacle, and he endeavoured therefore to placate her, bearing her scorn with outward patience and courtesy. Christopher acknowledges here that no explanation is offered in this rapid outline of why Galadriel scorned Sauron, unless she saw through his disguise, or of why, if she did perceive her true nature, she permitted him to remain in Eregion. There's a deep footnote there which we'll cover separately in discussion. But coming back to the text, Sauron used all his arts upon Celebrimbor and his fellow smiths, who had formed a society of brotherhood very powerful in Erechion, the Gwaith y Mirdain. But he worked in secret, unknown to Galadriel and Celeborn. Before long, Sauron had the Gwaithi Mirdain under his influence, for at first they had great profit from his instruction in secret matters of their craft. So great became his hold on the Mirdain that at length he persuaded them to revolt against Galadriel and Celeborn and to seize power in Eregion. And that was sometime between 1350 and 1400. SA Galadriel thereupon left Eregion and passed through Khazad Dummy to Lorinand, taking with her Amroth and Celebrian. But Celeborn would not enter the Mansions of the Dwarves, and he remained behind in Eregion, disregarded by Celebrimbor. In Lorinand, Galadriel took up rule and defence against Sauron. Sauron himself departed from Eregion about the year 1500, after the Mirdain had begun the making of the Rings of Power. Now Celebrimbor was not corrupted in heart or faith, but had accepted Sauron as what he posed to be. And when at length he discovered the existence of the One Ring, he revolted against Sauron and went to Lorinen to take counsel once more with Galadriel. They should have destroyed all the Rings of Power at this time, but they failed to find the strength. Galadriel counseled him that the Three Rings of the Elves should be hidden, never used, and dispersed far from Eregion, where Sauron believed them to be. It was at that time that she received Nenya, the White Ring, from Celebrimbor, and by its power the realm of Lorinand was strengthened and made beautiful. But its power upon her was great also and unforeseen, for it increased her latent desire for the sea and for return into the west, so that her joy in Middle Earth was diminished. There's a footnote to this where Christopher reminds us that Galadriel, even though she now possesses Ninya, can't make any use of it at all until Sauron loses the One Ring. In fact, she just said to Celebrimbor that they should never be used.

Alan (88:11)

And now, as the readings get a little bit Longer. We have to skip a little bit more. But let's go ahead and cover what we didn't read. As Sauron is feeling more secure in Mordor, sending his people out to Eriador. Galadriel and Celeborn hadn't exactly been idle, had they?

James (88:23)

No, their power had grown. And Galadriel met up with the folks in, well, what would eventually become their realm, but it was still known as Larianand. It's a Nandoran realm at this time. Nandor being, of course, a group of the Teleri that turned off the Great Journey early on, as the text tells us.

Alan (88:39)

Now, before we go on, there is a long and detailed footnote to this part of the story explaining the Nandarin name, Loranand, and the word Nerdery behind it. We're going to be covering that in next week's Philology Fair, though, so stay tuned.

James (88:52)

So she's in touch with East Nandor, Galadriel and. And their realm is a lot bigger. Yeah. Than it was when we encountered Galadriel and Kelborn in the Third Age. It's said to go into the forests on both sides of the Anduin, including the south of Mirkord, where Dol Guldor would later be.

Alan (89:08)

I think that's interesting that their kingdom shrinks a little bit by the time they have it. Yeah, the texture gives us a really interesting impression. I don't know, maybe an Elvish Woodstock or something. I mean, there are no princes, no rulers. They live lives free of care. It's just a happy go lucky commune. Mostly because Morgoth is far away wrecking other people's lives. But I do like this. It's sort of like Elvish libertarians, or maybe more like that. We just started taking a chance to be the executive of the week.

James (89:40)

I like growing a 2/3 majority in the case of

Alan (89:44)

purely internal matters. But yes,

James (89:49)

a simple majority in the case of internal matters. A 2/3 majority in the case of external.

Alan (89:54)

External now, yeah, of course. Absolutely. As much as I like that, though Christopher tells us in a footnote, that was a later change. Originally it was stated that Lauranand was ruled.

James (90:05)

Ruled by native princes, presumably Nandarin.

Alan (90:08)

Probably Nandor princes. Right, Nandarin princes as opposed to the artists formerly known as Prince as princes who probably was too short to rule over any elves.

James (90:19)

Then we get this very interesting comment about the Sindarizing of these Nandor elves by the elves of Beleriand. Both the Noldor and the Sindar, but mostly Sindar.

Alan (90:28)

I thought that's interesting. I mean, they're all of the same tribe, so to speak. They're all of the Teleran descent, but they're of different stages of removal.

James (90:40)

Yeah, you can imagine the Sindar kind of had a bit of an issue with the Nandor more than the Noldor did. Yeah.

Alan (90:48)

Oh, yeah, yeah.

James (90:49)

Like, the Noldor probably looked down on both of them, and it's like, well,

Alan (90:51)

yeah, I've seen the light. You know, I don't know about you all, but Amino, the Sindar, you know, we're under the rule of Thingol and Melian.

James (91:00)

Yeah, I mean, they got Melian.

Alan (91:01)

They got Melian, which is pretty amazing.

James (91:03)

And Thingol had seen the tree, so. He did.

Alan (91:05)

Yeah, exactly. So, you know, they come back and. Well, yeah, I mean, I guess if you saw both trees, you saw at least one. So these Nandor, they're not Ivari or anything like that. They're still the same group of people, but there is definitely a cultural difference. And the cinderizing begins the way that's phrased. I don't know. It almost sounds bad, but it's an elevation, isn't it? I mean, aren't they. They're sort of lifting the Nandor up into this higher place. Almost an ennobling. Yeah, in a way, yeah.

James (91:46)

I mean, yeah, I think it is an ennobling. Although I don't know what that the implications are for the.

Alan (91:52)

I know.

James (91:53)

Culture.

Alan (91:53)

And that's the thing. I mean, it's an ennobling, but it could also be a destruction of their culture, which is not cool.

James (91:59)

Right.

Alan (91:59)

Anyway, it's interesting stuff. Like, what does that mean? But it does sound a little too much like tenderizing for my taste. But do you like a meat cinderized, whacking them with a little hammer, with a little spiky bits? The bracketed comment from Christopher here suggests that it's possible that these Beleriandic elves came there from Eregion itself via Khazad Dum, under the auspices of Galadriel. And now I have a question for you. That is Galadriel being tricky. Did she send some of her Sindar over to sort of prepare the Nandor for her leadership?

James (92:35)

Sounds a bit like Sauron actually sending emissaries of Galadriel.

Alan (92:40)

Why are you sending elves away from a new realm that you're trying to establish? Why are you doing this?

James (92:52)

Yeah, I don't know.

Alan (92:53)

I don't have an answer for this, folks. I'm just trying to figure out, what motivation does Galadriel have? We know she's been in Touch with the Nandor over there. That's great. But why is she then sending Cindar elves to go live in a Nandor kingdom that she then surprised shows up in and says, hi, you want a new leader? I'm all here. It's just interesting. All this, of course, is the part that we skipped, but now we get to where that reading started, with Galadriel working to match and counter every one of Sauron's moves since she was successful in the Nandor realm of Lorna. But what does that mean? Does it mean that she was able to prevent Sauron from gaining entry over there? What does success look like in that context?

James (93:40)

I presume so. Unless he was. Was it a military thing or a persuasive thing? Was he trying to deceive them?

Alan (93:48)

I don't know, and I'm really trying to figure out what it means that she was successful. So Galadriel, striving to counteract the machinations of Sauron, was successful in Loredan, while in Linda, Gil Galad shut out the emissaries and even Sauron himself. So I suppose it means that she was successful in counteracting the machinations, but

James (94:08)

maybe it's the same thing. Right? Maybe she was also rejecting Sauron's emissaries and Sauron herself. And, like, she wouldn't have.

Alan (94:15)

Maybe there's our answer to why she sends the elves over early before she gets over there. Their influence helps the Nandor elves reject the machinations of Sauron.

James (94:27)

Maybe because they're less likely to be persuaded.

Alan (94:29)

Right, because the. The Sindarin elves are gonna be like, no, no, no, no. That's. That's a sour.

James (94:34)

I've seen that. Yeah, they've seen it before. Right, Exactly.

Alan (94:38)

They have.

James (94:38)

Less likely to fall for the tricks.

Alan (94:40)

Yeah, that's a fair point. Yeah, we might have that answer. Okay.

James (94:43)

And then up north, the amazing Gil Galad rejected not just Sauron's emissaries, but even the Dark Lord himself. And from Otrapata, we read only to Lindens, Sauron did not come for Gil Galad. And Elrond doubted him and his fair seeming. And though they knew not who, in truth, he was, they would not admit him to that land.

Alan (95:03)

That's right. The door is shut.

James (95:05)

And that, interestingly, comes back to that. Not yet having a name, this sort of idea of there being multiple things going on, people not really being clear that it's all the same person and who that person is and all that kind of stuff.

Alan (95:17)

A Dark King in the East, a Necromancer, Are you getting it yet?

James (95:22)

You can't. Yeah, exactly. You can't unhear it now. It's Steve Jobs introducing Launching the Eye. Sauron.

Alan (95:31)

It's not a stretch, actually. It's not a stretch. Yeah.

James (95:34)

Unfortunately, not all the elves listen to Gil Galad or Galadriel. Sauron said to have had better fortune with the Noldor, especially Feanor's grandson, Celebrimbor.

Alan (95:45)

Yeah, I mean, I'm sure there's nothing like the pressure of wanting to live up to your grandfather's famed skill as a craftsman when your grandfather. Grandfather is Feanor. I mean, from the blue lamps of the Noldor that we see in a few of the stories. You know the Blue Lanterns, right? They use the crystals to the Palantiri to the Silmarils themselves. I mean, Feanor may not get a lot of love on this show for good reason, but we know how skilled he was.

James (96:13)

Yeah, Yeah. I mean, other than potentially Galadriel, the greatest of the Noldor, possibly the greatest elf in Valinor, too, We read.

Alan (96:23)

Quite possibly. I mean, that's the thing.

James (96:25)

Along with Galadriel. I mean, the two of them, neck and neck. But once. Once Galadriel was more elevated. Yeah, but we get a bracketed comment that reminds us. The story in Otropada does not mention Galadriel. No, and it's why this version of the Eregion story is so important. So interesting.

Alan (96:40)

Yeah, it really is.

James (96:41)

Then we get some of the story that we're already familiar with from Otropada. Sauron claiming to be sent by the Valar to help the elves.

Alan (96:48)

And of course, he knows Galadriel is going to be his biggest hurdle, so tries to win her over despite her scorn for him. Which leads Christopher to bring up a question for which there is no answer. Why did Galadriel scorn him? Was it that she saw through him? You know, like we. We saw earlier that Gil Galad and Elrond doubted him and his fair seeming. They didn't know who he was, but they wouldn't have been him to the land. Okay, was it something similar in this case, or did she see through him? If she saw through him, why would she even allow him to stay in her realm? Yeah, I mean, she might not recognize him as Sauron, but she would have known. If she scorns him, it's because there's something wrong with him. But she still lets him in the region of Eregion.

James (97:29)

Yeah, I mean, I think it's clear that she doesn't know that he's Sauron?

Alan (97:32)

No, no.

James (97:34)

At this point. But I don't know. I mean, I guess there's different levels of that. She may have scorned him. Not in the sense of, you know, I don't want you to have anything to do with this region. It could be that he was just simply trying to position himself. And she's like, yeah, you ain't got a chance. Yeah, no.

Alan (97:52)

He's like, no, no, no. Yeah, that's a good point. The scorn might just be. No, you're not gonna have a position of power or influence. Right. No, you're not going to get into the inner circle of Celeborn myself. Yeah, I don't trust you, but I don't have a reason enough to kick you out. Whereas Elrond and Gil Galad are like, you are not coming in.

James (98:13)

There's something. Yeah, there's something about you.

Alan (98:14)

There's something wrong.

James (98:15)

Yeah, yeah. We have a footnote here that explains that. In this story, Sauron didn't use the familiar name from Otropada, Anata, the Lord of Gifts. Instead, he used either Artano, the Highsmith, or Aulandil, devoted to Aule.

Alan (98:30)

Aulandil. I like that name. We'll talk about that more in the P5, though. So Sauron masterfully manipulates Celebrimbor and all of his crafting buddies. They've formed a group known as the Gwaith y Mirdain, no relation to Mirdanya, which uses a suffix not found in any Elvish language. Thank you very much. No disrespect to the actress. I thought it was a great role. I enjoyed the element of having her in there. I just didn't like her name.

James (99:00)

Sauron, not being a total idiot, works in secret, so Galadriel and Celeborn don't know what he's up to. He ends up bringing this guild under his influence thanks to improving their craft. And the footnote for this is just so good, we're going to read it without interruption before we discuss it. So, Alan, go ahead and read this

Alan (99:19)

footnote in a letter written in September 1954. That's letter 153 to Peter Hastings. My father said at the beginning of the Second Age, he was still beautiful to look at, or could still assume a beautiful visible shape, and was not, indeed wholly evil. Not unless all reformers who want to hurry up with reconstruction and reorganization are wholly evil, even before pride and the lust to exert their will eat them up.

James (99:51)

He goes on to talk about the Noldor and how they were always vulnerable on the side of science and technology, as we should call it. They wanted to have the knowledge that Sauron genuinely had, and those of Eregion refused the warnings of Gil Galad and Elrond. The particular desire of the Eregion elves, an allegory, if you like, of a love of machinery and technical devices, is also symbolized by their special friendship with the dwarves of Moria.

Alan (100:20)

Oh boy. Okay, so that's super insightful on both the Noldor and the Dwarves, but especially the Noldor of Eregion, this idea of them being vulnerable when it came to science and technology. But I thought it was interesting that he starts out by saying that Sauron, even here at the beginning of the Second Age, he was still not wholly evil.

James (100:40)

Yeah. And I think this is actually probably the more surprising part, especially the way he says, not unless all reformers who want to hurry up with reconstruction and reorganization are holy evil. In other words, he's basically defending Sauron and saying he is. At one level, he was just a reformer that was wanting to move maybe a little too quickly. Yeah, I mean, I'm saying it's his only sin, but that seems to be sort of at the heart of it, that he wanted to reform things, he

Alan (101:07)

didn't want to destroy them. And we've talked about this before, the difference between Morgoth and Sauron. Right, the chaotic evil versus the lawful evil. Yeah, he just wanted to shape it differently.

James (101:17)

Or maybe even in this sense, lawful neutral rather than chaotic neutral.

Alan (101:21)

It might not have been lawful evil yet.

James (101:22)

Yeah, right.

Alan (101:23)

That's interesting because, you know, he does go on in that letter. Not a. In the part that we quoted here. But he talks about the comparison just like he's comparing Sauron to those who want to reformers who want to hurry up with reconstruction. He also compares the Noldor specifically to Catholics who work in fields like the physical sciences and things that are developing. Things that the world being what it is, are going to be used for evil. And they know that, but they're not building them with an evil purpose. It's a very interesting thing. Like if you're working in a TNT factory, you're not blamed for the thing that you make because it might also have a good purpose. Right.

James (102:07)

Digging mines or whatever, studying particle physics or something. Doesn't mean you're wanting to make tools,

Alan (102:12)

blow up the world.

James (102:14)

Yeah, exactly. And this, I think, in a way comes back to the Aule Yavanna balance.

Alan (102:19)

The balance, doesn't it? You're right.

James (102:20)

Talked about that there's not necessarily an inherent evil in the crafting. No. But that there does need to be a balance because there's a risk. There's a vulnerability. You have.

Alan (102:32)

Yeah.

James (102:33)

Of developing that love of machinery and technical devices.

Alan (102:36)

Yeah. It's a really insightful letter. Definitely go Back to letter 153 and look at that. But as Sauron reconstructed and reorganized region under the Gwaiithi Miradain, he eventually convinced them to overthrow their terrible lords, Galadriel and Celeborn, and actually take control of the region themselves. That's. That's pretty incredible. To convince Celebrimbor and the Gwaiithi Miradain to overthrow their rightful leaders.

James (103:05)

Yeah.

Alan (103:06)

How did he convince them to do this?

James (103:08)

And again, it's really interesting to me that this is, of course, all post publication of Lord of the Rings. This is a change that Tolkien is making, putting Galadriel, because, as Christopher points out multiple times, Galadriel's not actually mentioned in the original version of this story.

Alan (103:23)

No. When we read of the Rings of Power in the Third Age, she's not involved in this.

James (103:27)

Yeah.

Alan (103:28)

And now she's involved only to get overthrown.

James (103:30)

Right.

Alan (103:31)

Tolkien saying that this overthrow happened sometime between 1315, 1400 of the Second Age, at which point, and this is interesting because now they get separated for tax reasons, Galadriel heads to Loranand by way of Khazad Dum, taking their children. So both Amaroth, who's now about a thousand years old, and Celebrian, who is obviously clearly somewhat younger, with her. So she takes the kids and splits.

James (103:56)

Yeah. And while Celeborn, who's not a fan of the Dwarves, remember, he refuses to go that way and so stays in Eregion. Right. Enjoying a little forced vacation. Yeah.

Alan (104:07)

You don't mind if I stay here totally powerless? I mean, I don't know that I'd want to stay at a place where I'd got overthrown.

James (104:14)

Yeah. Sort of like better than those stinking dwarves in the Black Pit.

Alan (104:19)

Better than the Black Pit, that's right.

James (104:22)

A century or so later, Sauron leaves around 1500 after convincing the Mirdain to start crafting the Rings of Power.

Alan (104:29)

It's an interesting timeline because he leaves in 1500. They've begun crafting the Rings of Power, but as we'll learn, it's only the seven of the nine that they've begun to create. It's in 1600 that he crafts the one ring. Where is he during these intervening 100 years?

James (104:46)

And what's he doing?

Alan (104:48)

And what's he doing? I mean, is it taking him 100 years to get to Mordor and craft the One Ring?

James (104:53)

I don't know. I mean, there's a sense in which he. Presumably, his work was done in the sense he'd planted the seeds and everything. He didn't need to physically be there,

Alan (105:00)

but, boy, if he'd been there, the three wouldn't have been able to be what they were. It's just interesting to me. Like, did he strategically leave a little too soon? I don't know. I don't know. There's an answer. Yeah, he got them to make the rings. And obviously the 7 and 9 are made early in this window. Actually, some of them appear to have been made even before, or at least they were begun, because who knows how long it actually takes to craft them. But the crafting of them began before he left in 1500.

James (105:28)

Right.

Alan (105:29)

But the three were made while he was gone. And we know that. Right, because the three were made without Sauron's presence. So he had no power. I mean, the One Ring still had power, but he had no influence on them. So that means they were made between 1500 and 1600, 1600 being when the One Ring was made. But.

James (105:46)

But can we just pause for a moment and think about the original motivation for the crafting of the Rings? Because it's very easy to.

Alan (105:53)

His motivation or the elves motivation.

James (105:55)

His motivation for crafting them. Because we discussed at great length in Rings of Power Wrap up, in particular this idea that the division, for example, between the 7 and the 9 was something that came about later, after the fact. After the fact. I mean, he wasn't. Him giving the rings, the nine rings, to men was. I think I've described it before as like Plan C or Plan D. Like, it wasn't. He really wanted the.

Alan (106:22)

You want to control over the elves.

James (106:23)

Yeah. And so I don't know what he was thinking at the time exactly. I can't recall.

Alan (106:32)

I don't know there's anything that tells

James (106:34)

us what he really aimed to do with those rings.

Alan (106:38)

I mean, I think clearly he was creating a back door in the rings so that he could then create the One Ring that would be a master of all of them.

James (106:46)

But he presumably at that stage thought that the rings were all going to be elvish. The 16th.

Alan (106:52)

Yeah, yeah. The 16.

James (106:53)

Yeah.

Alan (106:53)

Because the nine and the seven, like

James (106:56)

you said, they were 16. To get that, the elves would have. And he would then control them.

Alan (107:01)

And I still kind of feel like 9 and 7 is sort of like his way of taking the over under on men. You know, like, it's like I could have done 8 and 8.

James (107:09)

50.

Alan (107:10)

50 makes more sense. But, you know, the Dwarves, they might be a little. I think I'm gonna have more success with the men. So let's bet a little heavier there. Plus the rhyme with the extra syllable. So it's one of these things where. What was going on? What was his mindset when he left in 1500? What did he know about the Rings of Power? Did he think they would stop at these 16? Because clearly the idea of them making three altogether unconnected to him, that came as a surprise to him. So what was he expecting them to do with these rings? Like you said, I think it was just 16 rings that they were going to make that he was going to have direct influence over, and therefore he's going to control the elves. And then he would deal with men separately, Numenor, as a separate thing. Yeah, it's just interesting. What if he'd stayed around another 50 or 60 years and then made a real quick run to Mordor to make the One ring, like immediately before Celebrimmer could make three more? Speaking of Celebr, we get to cut back to him. And clearly he's not really a bad guy. We know that. Right. He just got tricked. He believed Sauron. He was gullible. That's his biggest sin is gullibility. When he finds out about the one, which of course we know doesn't happen till 1600, he goes over to Galadriel and sheepishly, one imagines. I know I overthrew you. I'm sorry about that. By the way. I need your advice. That had been an awkward meeting, man.

James (108:46)

Yeah, exactly.

Alan (108:47)

Yeah.

James (108:48)

And Tolkien tells us as the narrator here, that this would have been the time to, you know, destroy all the Rings.

Alan (108:53)

Yeah, now would be good. Now. Yeah.

James (108:56)

But Galadriel's advice about the three is to disperse them and to not use them.

Alan (109:01)

Right.

James (109:02)

And from Motrapada, the three remained Unsullied, for they were forged by Celebrimbor alone, and the hand of Sauron had never touched them. Yet they were also subject to the One.

Alan (109:13)

That's right. And we all know where they go from here. She gets Nenya, but at a great cost. I really thought this was an insightful passage in the text where we actually read that. Yes, it helped make interesting. As Christopher explains, he leaves it as the realm of Loranand in the text here. But we're talking about lost Lothlorien after she gains control of It. It strengthens that place. It makes it beautiful. We know it preserves it. We know it has this sort of weird effect on time passage, but its power on her was great also, and unforeseen. She did not know when she started to use it after the One Ring was lost that it would have this power. And this power is really tragic because it increases this desire that she has for a return to the West. And this is where the idea of a ban comes into play again. Like, if there's no ban, then it's a different test for her if there's no ban, but she feels obligated to stay until Sauron is defeated. This makes that all the more difficult because she can go back. And her desire to go back is increasing because of this ring, but she's fighting that increasing desire in order to fight Sauron.

James (110:25)

Yep.

Alan (110:26)

On the other hand, if there is a ban, it makes her all the more bitter about that ban. All the more.

James (110:32)

Yes.

Alan (110:33)

Just like, what can I do to lift this ban? I'm desperate because, again, as time goes on, she's more and more desirous of returning to the west, as the text says, so that her joy in Middle Earth was diminished. Can you imagine? You're using this thing to preserve your people and your land, but the cost to you is that your joy is lost.

James (110:55)

Yeah. I think we discussed this at length when we were reading some of the final chapters in book six of Lord of the Rings.

Alan (111:03)

Yeah.

James (111:04)

About the many partings. Yeah. This idea that all of the rings have an amplifying effect.

Alan (111:12)

Yeah.

James (111:13)

Whatever your desires are, they get amplified. And I think this is an indication of that. That one of her deepest desires was, well, the sea. We talked about in the context of her Teleran roots giving her that.

Alan (111:27)

Yes.

James (111:27)

Like her brother Finrod.

Alan (111:29)

Well, when you swim all the way from Valador, you just.

James (111:33)

But also, you know, the desire to go west, as you said. And so the ring amplifies that in a. In a difficult way.

Alan (111:41)

In a very difficult way. Absolutely. So Narya and Vilya go up to

James (111:46)

Gil Galad, and there is something consistent. I think there's different versions of the story of particular. Particularly Naya's history.

Alan (111:57)

Yeah.

James (111:57)

But even Vilya, I think there's different versions of when it was given. Yeah.

Alan (112:02)

When did he give it to Elrond?

James (112:03)

Yeah. Because I think some versions say right away, others say only just before the going to the last battle of the last Alliance. In the case of Naya's history, I'm trying to think when in the different versions Gil Galad gave it to Cirdan.

Alan (112:19)

Yeah, because it does change. I mean, in some. He gave it to Cirdan right away.

James (112:22)

Right away.

Alan (112:23)

And as well, there is the parenthetical that we had to skip at the end, where Christopher explains that the text here says that Gil Galad immediately gives Narya to Cirodan. But then later there's a marginal note that says he kept it for himself until he set out for the War of the Last Alliance. And I think we get similar story with Vilya.

James (112:48)

Yeah.

Alan (112:49)

You know, in terms of when does he give it to Elrond? So that seems like something he was still working on as well.

James (112:54)

Yep. Yeah.

Alan (112:56)

Now, Barliman was not corrupted in heart or faith, but had accepted Sauron as what he posed to be. And when at length he discovered the existence of the One Bag, he revolted against Sauron and went to Bree to take counsel once more with Bob and Nob. James, what does Barlow have in his bag for us today?

James (113:16)

So I actually found a question that relates to the three and some of our earlier discussions that we did have from Lord of the Rings. Peter in Michigan writes, we find out Galadriel has Ninya in the Lothlorien chapters. When do we find out about the others? And I think. So this is a really interesting question because I think we discussed at the time how interesting it is, how secret the location of the three.

Alan (113:47)

It's one of those questions where you're like, oh, I know the lore, so I don't even think about like, oh, yeah. When we're at the Council, Elrond's got Vilya. But none of us know that.

James (113:55)

None of us know that. I think it's. Right. It's at the Grey Havens.

Alan (113:58)

I think it's at the Gray Havens.

James (113:59)

We get that for both of them.

Alan (114:00)

Right.

James (114:00)

Both Elrond and Gandalf's rings are revealed.

Alan (114:04)

Well, I think that's. That's certainly the case with Vilya.

James (114:07)

Right.

Alan (114:07)

In the Grey Havens, we actually get text that says this. Elrond wore a mantle of gray and had a star upon his forehead, and a silver harp was in his hand, and upon his finger was a ring of gold with a great blue stone. Vilya, mightiest of the three. Do we ever find anything out about it beforehand?

James (114:27)

I don't think so. I think both are revealed then. And so there's a couple of really interesting things that occurred to me about this. One is, and we discussed this at the. We discussed this in previous seasons just how secret it was. Okay. Their existence comes up in the Council of Aeron, but it's never mentioned where they are.

Alan (114:47)

No. And in fact, it's like, we don't talk about this. The first rule of the Three Rings is we don't talk about.

James (114:52)

We don't talk about the Three Rings. And the other example of that is when Frodo tells Aragorn that Galadriel had one of them. Yeah. Aragorn's like, don't tell me. Don't tell me. You shouldn't have said that.

Alan (115:05)

Right.

James (115:05)

I find that remarkable, that Aragorn's like, I didn't need to know that. You shouldn't have told me that.

Alan (115:10)

I think Aragorn already suspected that. And I think he probably also either suspects or knows about Gandalfs.

James (115:17)

Yep.

Alan (115:18)

You have to wonder, actually, now that I think about it, Aragorn should know about all three. I mean, he grew up in Rivendell.

James (115:24)

You'd think so.

Alan (115:25)

He was Elrond's son for all intents and purposes. But they.

James (115:28)

Yeah, I. This is why I think this is. It's a really interesting question because it also plays with the. When do the reader. Because, I mean, the question is, when do we, the readers, find out?

Alan (115:37)

Which is really different. Because the characters are different than the readers in this case.

James (115:40)

Yeah.

Alan (115:41)

But.

James (115:42)

Yeah. Well, but then why is he telling Frodo. I don't want to. Like, he really reacts badly when Frodo says he saw.

Alan (115:50)

Yeah.

James (115:52)

On Galadriel. He's like, no, I didn't. I didn't want to know that.

Alan (115:56)

No.

James (115:56)

And it's funny. You made the point at the start of when you know the lore, it's one thing, but imagine. I can't help but think Tolkien intended for readers to actually get this shock that this was a big reveal at the end.

Alan (116:11)

Yeah. Yeah. I think so.

James (116:13)

That.

Alan (116:14)

Whoa.

James (116:14)

Elrond had.

Alan (116:16)

And Gandalf has a ring. Yeah.

James (116:18)

Now, all the stuff about Cirdan giving the ring to Gandalf and everything, that's all.

Alan (116:23)

Is that in the episode the Third

James (116:25)

Age, I think in the appendices as well. So if you're just reading the main story, that's the big reveal. And I remember another really sort of fun kind of word Neder fact about this. A little while ago, I plotted out what are all the Elvish words that appear in Lord of the Rings and when do we first get told them. And the last two Elvish words to be introduced in Lord of the Rings are Vilya and Nya.

Alan (116:59)

Yeah. And it is the first time they're mentioned. It's true.

James (117:02)

It's the first time they're mentioned and they're the last two Elvish words that we've not seen before. So I think there's this wonderful thing that we, as familiar readers probably lose.

Alan (117:11)

That is true. We've long talked about how I'm jealous of people who read it for the first time.

James (117:15)

Yeah, I think that's almost those. Because I think Tolkien really intended the end of the Three Rings to be a really significant part of all this. He even talks about it in the Tale of Years and Elrond departing. It's very much to do with the

Alan (117:37)

symbolic thing about the rings leaving.

James (117:39)

The rings leaving. Yeah, the three Rings leaving. And. Yeah. So I thought it was a really interesting question because I do think we, as familiar readers, we can sometimes forget those little.

Alan (117:51)

That's true. You're absolutely little.

James (117:52)

Those big surprises.

Alan (117:53)

They're huge. They're huge surprises. But you're right, I know that I would have forgotten it. I'm thinking now even of Aragorn's reaction. You talked about it. His response. Frodo says the power of the lady is on Lorien. Rich of the hours in Karas Galadan where Galadriel wields the Elven Ring. First of all, he says the Elven Ring. So he's not even thinking about the other two. So he's got no clue about the others, which is as it should be. Aragorn doesn't say I didn't know, but he does say that should not have been said outside Lorien. Not even to me. Speak no more of it. But so it is, Sam, in that land you lost your count. Blah, blah, blah. So that to me suggests he did know. But, like, you aren't supposed to tell anybody that. Even me. Like you don't know that I know.

James (118:39)

Right, right, right. Yep.

Alan (118:42)

But I think he knows because I suspect that he might be the only person alive who knows about where all three are. I mean, this is a guy who knew he was going to be faced with the One Ring and the temptation of the One Ring, prepared for it. And as a mortal man was able to reject that temptation. That's pretty amazing. So I think he knew and he

James (119:04)

was good friends with Gandalf. Yeah.

Alan (119:07)

You think he had to.

James (119:08)

I don't think Gandalf kept many secrets from.

Alan (119:11)

I don't think so either. And I think at some point Elrond would have revealed it to him. Maybe after he and Otto and plighted their troth. Like after he proved himself through those years. Of errantry. I doubt that he would have waited until after they were wed to reveal. It would almost be kind of anticlimactic at that point.

James (119:35)

So in that sense, we're getting well again. This is a nice tie into to Drought's whole principle of the least knowledgeable character worth as readers. Finding out when the Hobbits do yeah, yeah. We find out Galadriel has Nina when Frodo does. We find out who has Villier and Naya when Frodo does.

Alan (119:55)

When Frodo does.

James (119:56)

That's right.

Alan (119:56)

Yeah, man. Good stuff. Well, folks, thank you for joining us for another episode of the Prancing Pony Podcast. Please join us again next week when the Numenoreans save the day and the son of Galadriel and Celeborn is unlucky in love. Well, and actually Celebrimbor is unlucky as well.

James (120:12)

He is. He is Alan and I want to thank the members of Team PPP Editor Jordan Reynnels Barleyman, Becca Davis, Social Media Manager Casey Hilsey, Event and Patreon community coordinator Katie McKenna, graphic artist Megan Collins, video editor Yonatan Lazens and website guru Phil Dean.

Alan (120:29)

Please take a minute to check out the Prancing Pony podcast dot com. That's where you'll find show notes, outtakes, Prancing Pony ponderings, and our fully revamped PPP Merch store where you can get all sorts of cool merch featuring all the incredible chapter art that Megan's been doing for us now for almost four seasons.

James (120:46)

We're all about the books here at the Prancing Pony Podcast, so be sure to also visit our library page. We try to make sure that any book we've mentioned on the show is linked there for you to purchase. We do get a small a small amount of compensation when you make your purchase, so thank you for that.

Alan (120:59)

Indeed. And we also want to thank our patrons at the Kirdance contribution tier. I'll start with Demay in Alaska, Chad in Texas, Lance in New Jersey, Joseph in Michigan, Kathy from North Carolina, Brian in the uk, Jerry from Washington, Irwin from the Netherlands, Ben in Minnesota, Anthony in Texas, Zaksu in Illinois, Joshua in Massachusetts, Lucy in Texas, Eric in Texas, Vivian in California, James in Massachusetts and Ann in Kentucky.

James (121:27)

There's also Sean in New Jersey, Mason in California, Maureen from Massachusetts, Olivia in London, Robert in Arizona, Nick in Wisconsin, Lewis in South Carolina, Thomas in Germany, Craig in California, Kevin in Massachusetts, Joe in Maryland, D Scott in California, Jeffrey in Michigan, Paul in Colorado, David from Connecticut, and Teresa from Texas thank you all so very much for your support indeed.

Alan (121:54)

Thank you.

James (121:55)

Now make sure you don't miss any episodes of the Prancing Pony Podcast. Subscribe now through Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or your favorite podcast app.

Alan (122:03)

One last thing. As always, don't forget to send your thoughts, comments, and most of all, your reasons why Celebrimbor should have sent the Ring of air to you instead to barliman@the prancingponypodcast.com Now Barleyman does have a

James (122:16)

lot of mail to sort through, so we'll try to get you just as soon as we're able.

Alan (122:20)

As always, though, this has been far too short a time to spend among such excellent and admirable listeners.

James (122:27)

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