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- [00:00]
Alan
I've been telling you about Lola blankets since early last summer and for good reason. I've never felt anything quite so soft and cozy as my Lola blanket. And mine's in the smoky skies color if you're checking out their website, honestly, I just think everybody should have one of these. They're made out of this. Really? I can't even begin to convince you how soft it is. You'll have to feel it for yourself. It's this ultra soft faux fur with a signature four way stretch. And it makes it just perfect to wrap yourself up in dozens of beautiful designs and colors, including limited edition collaboration drops with amazing designers. And Lola blankets stay flawless after repeated washing. I've had mine long enough to tell you that from direct experience, no pilling or shedding. I also like that you can get them in different sizes too. From baby blankets to the massive Lola xl, which is more than seven and a half feet long. You can get matching pillows and they even have a line of weighted blankets as well as. Now, for a limited time, our listeners can get 40% off select Lola blankets products with Code Pony at checkout. Just head to lolablankets.com and use code PONY to get 40% off your order. Now, after you purchase, they're going to ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and let them know we sent you. Wrap yourself in luxury with Lola blankets. Hey, Sal.
- [01:26]
James
Hank. What's going on? We haven't worked a case in years.
- [01:29]
Alan
I just bought my car at Carvana and it was so easy. Too easy.
- [01:33]
James
Think something's up?
- [01:34]
Alan
You tell me. They got thousands of options, found a great car at a great price, and it got delivered the next day.
- [01:41]
James
It sounds like Carvana just makes it
- [01:43]
Alan
easy to buy your car, Hank. Yeah, you're right. Case closed.
- [01:48]
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- [02:05]
Alan
Good evening, little masters, and welcome to episode 404 of the Prancing Pony podcast, where, well, we often wander, stray and go on uncertain course, that's for sure.
- [02:17]
James
But at least no one is waiting for us at the Havens.
- [02:19]
Alan
Well, that's fair. Good thing, too.
- [02:23]
James
Folks, pull up a bench in the common room and join us. I'm James Tauber, the sage of the south, and I'm here with the man of the west who is listening to the waterfalls by which the river went again on its journey to the sea.
- [02:34]
Alan
Alan, sister, you don't mind if I take a really long nap, right? Like, I don't know, the next two hours? You got this.
- [02:40]
James
I'm not so sure.
- [02:41]
Alan
All right, well, folks, join us as we discover there are nearly as many stories about Amroth as there are about Galadriel and Celeborn, as we continue our six part look at the history of Galadriel and Celeborn.
- [02:52]
James
Folks, no matter whether you came to Middle Earth through the books, the films, the TV show, or something else, each of you is welcome here in our common room. The Prancing Pony Podcast continues in our 10th season of Reading and talking our way through Middle Earth with conversations, digressions and even speculations.
- [03:07]
Alan
Not to mention a few puns and bad jokes here and there. Maybe more than usual these days. Our purpose, though, is to dive deep into the lore, discuss the story, our favorite characters and themes, Tolkien's inspirations, and a whole lot more.
- [03:20]
James
And while we take the work seriously, the same can't be said about ourselves. We're just a couple of friends chatting at the pub and we're glad you've joined us.
- [03:27]
Alan
And I'm sure you'll be glad you joined as well. But before we start with today's chapter discussion, it's time for fan favorite Fan Philology Fair. Now, in a couple of weeks, we're going to get to the section in this chapter on the Elessar, and more than half of that episode is going to be talking about the Elf Stone and its strong connection with Aragorn. I thought I'd do something a little different. Let's go and spend this week's Philology Fair walking through all the names of Aragorn.
- [03:56]
James
Sounds good. So to start, let's go to the Houses of Healing, Book 5, Chapter 8 of the Lord of the Rings. After Pippin had addressed him as Strider, we read. But Imrahil said to Ymir, is it thus that we speak to our kings yet maybe he will wear his crown in some other name. And Aragorn, hearing him, turned and said, verily, for in the High Tongue of old, I am Elessar the Elfstone, and in Vinyatar the Renewer. And he lifted from his breast the green stone that lay there. But Strider shall be the name of my house. If that be ever established in the High Tongue, it will not sound so ill. And Telcontar I will be, and all the heirs of my body.
- [04:44]
Alan
So what names do we have for him? Just in this single paragraph, we've got Strider, Aragorn, Elessar, Envinetar, and Telkantar. Let's take a look at each of these names in order to Strider. Well, there's obviously not a Lot of war nerdery to be done on the word Strider. It's just a Western nickname connected to the length of his strides. We see it in the passage where the name is first given to us by one Barlamon Butterbur. He says. What his right name is, I've never heard, but he's known around here as Strider. Goes about at a great pace on his long shanks. I guess that's another one of his nicknames, right? Longshanks. And of course, he has long legs. He's Numenorean. And the men of Numenor were significantly taller than the Bremen who. And now, I don't recall whether you and I talked about this here or whether I talked about on the TTT or both. Those Bree men are actually kin to the Dunlendings.
- [05:34]
James
Yeah, I think it did come up here. But I think you also have talked about it on the ttt, but at the Council of Elrond, it seems Aragorn didn't like the name Strider. Travellers, scouters and countrymen give us scornful names. Strider I am to one fat man who lives within a day's march of foes that would freeze his heart or lay his little town in ruin if he were not guarded ceaselessly. Yet we would not have it otherwise if simple folk are free from care and fear. Simple they will be, and we must be secret to keep them so. And yet, despite that, he chooses to name his royal house the House of Telcontar, which is a translation into Quenya of the name Strider. Now we get the first part. Telco as the name of the stem of a letter in Tengwar that literally means legend. And so there's a connection between Telco, the name of the stem in Tegua, and the name Telkontar for Strider. Interestingly, fun fact, had his name stayed Trotter and not changed to Strida, the name of his house might have been Tarantar. That would have been the equivalent of trotting rather than striding.
- [06:42]
Alan
Trotting rather than striding, yeah. By the way, thank you for correcting my pronunciation. That's another one of those words that I've been pronouncing wrong forever. I've been putting the emphasis on the first syllable, but I think once again, it's that nt the double consonant after the vowel.
- [06:58]
James
I confess, before every episode, I have to go through and profess every single word because I've said most of them wrong most of my life.
- [07:06]
Alan
Oh, man. All right, so Aragorn of course, is a name that I'm sure we've looked at here before. It's Sindarin, of course. And it includes the element ar or ara, which means noble, royal or high. We see that element everywhere. Right. Aragonath, the Pillars of the Kings. Arnor, the royal land. Arwen, noble maiden, even Aragorn's father's name, Arathon, which means steadfast king. But the second element of Aragorn's name is a bit trickier. That Gorn element means revered, if you look at Parma El Dalamboron, 17. But in the Peoples of Middle Earth, it actually is said to mean the word valor. So Aragorn means something either like kingly valor or revered king. I mean, they're similar enough, but it's a little bit of a toss up as to whether Gorn is revered or valor. It.
- [07:52]
James
Yeah. As for the name that launched this philology fair, Aragorn himself gives us the translation of the name Elessar. It's Quenya rather than Sindarin, and has been translated elf stone. Literally, it means star stone, as the element Ellen means star. But the close association of Ellen, star and Eldar elf means that elf stone works. And it's similar to what we see in names like Elendil, whose name literally means star lover, but but is translated as elf friend. And the Sa part of Elehsar, which just means a small stone as opposed to Gond, which would be a big stone or rock, is also found with a final N in Sarn Fjord. I like that.
- [08:31]
Alan
I like that there's a word that distinguishes between big rock or stone and these small, small stones or pebbles kind of thing. But sar. Is that because Elegand wouldn't sound as good, would it?
- [08:44]
James
It just reminds me of it. Was it a police department in Minnesota that tweeted a few years back that a small stone the size of a large stone has fallen on the road? A small rock the size of a
- [08:57]
Alan
large rock or something like that's hilarious. I gotta find out.
- [09:01]
James
Go look for it for.
- [09:02]
Alan
Yeah, boy, that sounds like. That sounds actually like the kind of prancing pony podcast mistake that's right up there. Moving on to the other names. Invincar is also a Quenya name, and that means renewer. The verb envinator, Vinyata means renew. That word itself, en. Vinyata is a combination of en, which just means again, the way the re prefix does in English. Right. So again, vinya means new, like Vigna, Londe, New Haven. The ta suffix in. In vinyata is the causative verb suffix, and the R at the end is the agental suffix, meaning he's the one who makes new. Again, so the R refers to Aragorn, the renewer who renews things. The way that word is constructed is great in Vignatar, but that covers all the names in that first paragraph. From the houses of healing. Of course, Aragorn went by a few other names. We learn about one of my favorites in reading about Ecthelion ii, steward of Gondor and father to Denethor, and presumably a better father than Denethor. In Appendix A we read in much that Icthelion did. He had the aid and advice of a great captain whom he loved above all. Thorongil. Men called him in Gondor the Eagle of the Star, for he was swift and keen eyed, and wore a silver star upon his cloak. But no one knew his true name, nor in what land he was born. He came to Ecthelion from Rohan, where he had served the king Thengel, but he was not one of the Rohirrim. He was a great leader of men, by land or by sea. But he departed into the shadows whence he came before the days of Ecthelion were ended.
- [10:43]
James
Once again, Tolkien gives us the translation in the text. The Eagle of the Star, Thorin means eagle, as in Thorondor, king of eagles. And the Cirith Thoronath, eagle's cleft. And the element there, gil, is like in Gil Galad's name. It means a bright spark, star or silver glint. There's another name we see in the epilogue to the Lord of the Rings, found in Sauron. Defeated there, Elessar sent the king's letter to the Shire to Sam and his family. In particular, in the Sindarin text, we see the name Adhelhaan, which is Sindarin for Elf stone. It contains the element Ethel elf, as in Ost, in Edhel, the fortress of the Eldar, or Athel Lond, Elf Haven. It also contains the Leonighted form of Saan Han, meaning stone.
- [11:33]
Alan
Now, of course, one of everybody's favorite names for Aragorn is Estel, and that's actually a word that's both Quenya and Sindarin, and it means hope. More specifically, though, it means hope, trust, a temper of mind, steady, fixed in purpose and difficult to dissuade, and unlikely to fall into despair or abandon its purpose. I love that expanded definition that Tolkien gives us, that can be found, folks, in the War of the Jewels in
- [11:59]
James
history of Middle Earth, Eobir gives him a unique name as well. Strider is too poor a name. Son of Arathorn, Wingfoot, I name you. This deed of the three friends should be sung in many a hall. Forty leagues and five you have measured ere the fourth day's ended Hardy as the race of Elendil. That name has a rather obvious meaning, so no word nerdery. We just had to read that passage, though, and it is a great Germanic kenning as well as wing foot.
- [12:28]
Alan
Yeah, just taking two words, combining them together and it fits. Because, of course, a kenning is exactly the kind of thing you'd expect from the Rohirrim, from an Old English speaking people.
- [12:39]
James
Exactly.
- [12:39]
Alan
Finally, and appropriately, Aragorn is given the name the Dunedan, man of the west, by Bilbo Baggins, who explains the name to Frodo. I thought you knew enough Elvish at least to know Dun Adan, man of the West, Numenorean. But this is not the time for lessons.
- [12:57]
James
That's actually one of the first examples we look at in my course on Tolkien's invented languages and Lord of the Rings, because it's a great way to sneak in a Sindarin lesson into the actual narrative. Yeah, it's not. Not forced. We learn. We learn a little bit of Sindran and the components Dune and Adan, but as Bilbo says, this is not the time for lessons.
- [13:16]
Alan
Oh, but there's always time for lessons. James, why don't you go ahead and read about the Gill Rhine.
- [13:22]
James
The foregoing narrative was actually composed as an offshoot from an etymological discussion of the names of certain rivers in Middle Earth. In this case, the Gil Rhine, a river of Lebennin in Gondor that flowed into the bay of Belfalas west of Ethyr Anduin. And another facet of the legend of Nimrodel emerges from the discussion of the element rhine. This was probably derived from the stem ran, wander, stray, go on an uncertain course, as in Mithrandir and in the name Rana of the Moon. And now we go from Christopher's editorial note to Tolkien's words. This would not seem suitable to any of the rivers of Gondor. But the names of rivers may often apply only to part of their course to their source, or to their lower reaches, or to other features that struck explorers who named them. In this case, however, the fragments of the legend of Amroth and Nimrodox offer an explanation. The Gil Rhine came swiftly down from the mountains, as did the other rivers of that region. But as it reached the end of the outlier of Erid Nimris that separated it from the Kelos. It ran into a wide, shallow depression. In this it wandered for a while and formed a small mere at the southern end, before it cut through a ridge and went on swiftly again to join the Cerni. When Nimrodel fled from Lorien, it is said that seeking for the sea, she became lost in the White Mountains, until at last, by what road or pass is not told, she came to a river that reminded her of her own stream in Lorien. Her heart was lightened and she sat by a mere, seeing the stars reflected in its dim waters and listening to the waterfalls by which the river went again on its journey down to the sea. There she fell into a deep sleep of weariness. And so long she slept that she did not come down to Belfalus until Amaroth's ship had been blown out to sea and he was lost trying to swim back to Belfalus. This legend was well known in the door in Ernil, the Land of the Prince. And no doubt the name was given in memory of it.
- [15:51]
Alan
I love how Christopher starts out this passage. The foregoing narrative was actually composed as an offshoot from an. In other words, it was a digression. The entire story of Amroth and Nimrodel was written as a digression to this etymological discussion about the names of rivers. And what's even wilder, I love this. That etymological discussion was just in response to a question the professor had received from a reader they'd asked. Incidentally, there's something I've been wondering about since I saw the relevant addition to the second edition. Whether the River Glanduine is the same as the Swan Fleet. Boom and off he runs.
- [16:30]
James
Exactly. That question led Tolkien to create a 13 page TypeScript and a couple of other manuscript pages or half pages as well.
- [16:38]
Alan
That's wild.
- [16:40]
James
But it's the name of the river Gil Rhine that led to the development of this story. Yeah, because the element Rhine is said to have been derived from the root ran. Wander astray.
- [16:51]
Alan
Like Mithrandir, Right?
- [16:53]
James
Yeah, exactly. The Grey Wanderer.
- [16:55]
Alan
Yeah.
- [16:56]
James
And yet the river doesn't wander astray. None of the rivers of Gondor really do.
- [17:00]
Alan
No, they come straight out of the mountains and zoom right down to the coast of Belfalas or Anfalas, depending on the river, I suppose. Yeah. But that is when we get the full explanation that near the source of the river in the White Mountains. Mountains, it. Because of the way the. The kind of the outshoot of the mountains comes down, it ends up pouring into a little bit of a depression, first creating this small lake. That's what a mirror is. And then Nimrodel, when she was wandering, is the one who found this river and ended up sitting by the lake for a long time. In fact, the legend that we read last week, she fell asleep there and didn't wake up and reach the harbor until after Amroth was dead.
- [17:35]
James
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [17:37]
Alan
That's a long nap.
- [17:39]
James
It is quite a nap.
- [17:40]
Alan
It's like, kind of like why.
- [17:43]
James
Yeah. Anyway, the end of the passage explains that since the story of Nimrodal and Amroth was well known to people in Belfalos, they're the ones who likely named the river in memory of her wandering and the mere caused by the rivers ever so slightly wandering.
- [17:59]
Alan
Yeah. By the way, this is the only place in the text where we see the name of Dor en Ernil, though we do also see it on the large map. It's translated as Land of the Prince. Dor, of course, is that ubiquitous word meaning land. We see it everywhere. Gondor, Eriador, Mordor. The next element, en, it's just the preposition, meaning of the. We see that in place especially in the Silmarillion Bar, En danwed the House of Ransom, or Kabed en Aras, which, it's called Deer's Leap, but it literally means the Leap of the Deer. Many other places besides. And then, of course, Ananil is an interesting word we see this in means prince, and we see it in Ernil I Ferianath, the title Prince of the Halflings that was given to Pippin. Given to Pippin, not Court Jester of the Halflings, though that would have been more appropriate. So Dor en Ernil is simply Land of the Prince.
- [19:00]
James
But let's go ahead and include a brief digression here to talk about the inspiration for this legend. The name of the river Gilrein. For that, as usual, we'll visit the rivers and beacon hills of Gondor in the Nature of Middle Earth. Now, this is something you covered in Week 107's Word Nerd Wednesday. For those of you who listening or watching the TTT in the essay, we first find Tolkien acknowledging the similarity between the name of this river and Aragorn's mother. Gilrein, pronounced practically the same, but spelled differently. The river is Gil R A I N, while Aragorn's mother's name was Gil
- [19:40]
Alan
R A E N. And then Tolkien, in his role as Translator, rather than. The guy who simply invented all of this says that unless it is misspelled, talking about the name of the river, it means must have had a different meaning. And then he begins with the element that's common to both, and that's Gil. Right. I think we all recognize that from Gilgalad. It's no doubt Sindarin. Gill, spark, twinkle of light, star, often used of the stars of heaven in place of the older and more elevated L or Ellen Stem.
- [20:09]
James
Yeah. I just love the way when Tolkien really doubles down on this conceit of being the translator, rather the inventor, and he expresses. He expresses doubt. Like, unless it is misspelled, it must have had a different meaning. Like, he's worked it out. He's put together the evidence and has come to the.
- [20:28]
Alan
A lot of that. In the Rivers and Beacon Hills essay in particular, there's a lot of speculation and, you know, like, this might have been it. Or, you know, but this was a pre. Numenorean name. And here's what happened when you had older languages mixing with newer languages. You have these names that combine them both. He talks about some ancient piece of history that, of course, isn't written down anywhere. It's like some history report, you know?
- [20:54]
James
Yes.
- [20:56]
Alan
It's wild.
- [20:57]
James
Some say.
- [20:58]
Alan
Yeah, yeah.
- [20:59]
James
But it's. Yeah, it's just. It's wonderful the way he expresses that doubt, even though he's, of course, in full control of it.
- [21:04]
Alan
I know. It makes me think of one of the things we talked about last season in the appendices. I loved it. The story of the naming of the Branduin in Westeron.
- [21:14]
James
Right.
- [21:15]
Alan
Bra Dehyn vs Bra Deheen or something like that. I can't remember now the top of my head. And one of them was Hetty Ale.
- [21:21]
James
Yep.
- [21:22]
Alan
I just. It's such a great way of immersing the reader in, like you said, just, this is not a fiction. This is a history. The whole time, it's a history. It's only when you step out of it and realize one man assembled all of this, then you realize this is just an incredibly elaborate fantasy story.
- [21:43]
James
Yeah, yeah, exactly. We then see Tolkien first focusing on Aragorn's mother's name, which means one adorned with a treasure set with small gems in its network, with the element Rhine being the Sindarin form of the Quenya element Rhaina, meaning netted or enlaced. But as for the name of the river, he says the element Rhine, that's R A I, N, though similar, was distinct in origin and it's after that that we get the full version here,
- [22:15]
Alan
the one that you talked about there with the. The element rhine coming from the wanderer.
- [22:21]
James
Yeah. And just. Just coming back again to some of that linguistic depth in Appendix E. If I recall correctly, he does talk briefly about that AE vs AI having the same pronunciation. And some people do make that. Do make a slight distinction. But he. He straight out says. I think it's in a footnote. He says many people can't distinguish them. They're practically the pronounced the same. But it's interesting that he. He plays with that whole idea of, you know, maybe in some accents there's a distinction, in others they've been merged. It's.
- [22:52]
Alan
It's just.
- [22:53]
James
Yeah. Wonderful philological realism.
- [22:56]
Alan
Exactly. But certainly as readers, it's just easier for us to have one association rule.
- [23:01]
James
I don't bother trying to distinguish them.
- [23:03]
Alan
I struggle with the pronunciation rules to begin with, as we all know from last season. You know what Nargathron and all these other.
- [23:11]
James
Well, I mean, some. Some of those are still so up in the air. The one that I hit me for the first time today was Le Benin, because I'm sure I've always said Lebanon.
- [23:21]
Alan
Oh, have you?
- [23:23]
James
Yeah, I think. I don't think. Well, I don't think I've ever said it out loud. It's one of those things that we've talked about many times, but once you say it out loud and you. And you realize the double consonant. Yeah. Puts the stress there.
- [23:34]
Alan
Good stuff.
- [23:35]
James
Yeah. Would you continue the reading out?
- [23:37]
Alan
I would indeed. The essay continues with a brief explanation of how Amroth, as king of Lorien, related to the rule there of Celeborn and Galadriel. That was Christopher's brief intro to the professor's words that are next. The people of Lorien were even then, that is, at the time of the loss of Amroth, much as they were at the end of the Third Age. Silvan elves in origin, but ruled by princes of Sindarin descent, as was the realm of Thranduil in the northern parts of Mirkwood. Though whether Thranduil and Amroth were akin is not now known. They had, however, been much mingled with Noldor of Sindarin speech, who passed through Moria after the destruction of Eregion by Sauron in the year 1697 of the Second Age. At that time, Elrond went westward and established the refuge of Imladris, but Celeborn went at first to Lorien and fortified it against any further attempts of Sauron to cross the Anduin. When, however, Sauron withdrew to Mordor and was, as reported, wholly concerned with conquests in the East, Celeborn rejoined Galadriel in Lindon. I'm just going to comment here before I keep reading yet another swear in Middle Earth. Like, how many versions of this can we have? But we'll get to that. Just if you're all confused, that's why, Because. Wait a minute, I thought Kelleborn didn't go over there. Well, he didn't in that story, but he does in this one. Continuing on with the professor's words, Lorien had then long years of peace and obscurity under the rule of its own king, Amdir, until the downfall of Numenor and the sudden return of Sauron to Middle Earth. Amdir obeyed the summons of Gil Galad and brought as large a force as he could muster to the Last Alliance. But he was slain in the battle of Dagorlad, and most of his company with him, Amroth, his son, became king. That's when Christopher then interjects, this account is of course greatly at variance with that contained, and concerning Galadriel and Celebor.
- [25:44]
James
You don't say Christopher.
- [25:46]
Alan
Don't say Christopher. He continues, amroth is no longer the son of Galadriel and Celeborn, but of Amdir, a prince of Sindarin origin. The older story of the relations of Galadriel and Celeborn with Eregion and Lorien seems to have been modified in many important respects, but how much of it would have been retained in any fully written narrative cannot be said. Celeborn's association with Lorien is now placed much further back, for in concerning Galadriel and Celeborn, he never went to Lorien at all during the Second Age. And we learn here that many Noldorin elves passed through Moria to Lorien after the destruction of Eregion. In the earlier account, there is no suggestion of this, and the movement of Beleriandic elves into Lorien took place under peaceful conditions many years before. The implication of the extract just given is that after Eregion's fall, Celeborn led this migration to Lorien, while Galadriel joined Gil Galad in Lindon. And he goes on, but that's the reading for this segment, but wow.
- [26:52]
James
Yeah. We're told this next passage explains a bit more about the kingship of Amroth in Lorien, but as we'll see, it's quite different than Amroth's story Prior.
- [27:02]
Alan
It sure is, yeah.
- [27:04]
James
So it begins with a reminder of what we've talked about a few times already, that the majority of the people here in the kingdom of Lorien are the Silvan elves. And we walk through that distinction of each of the different groupings of elves last week in the mailbag.
- [27:17]
Alan
That was a good question. It really helped solidify some of those things for me as well.
- [27:20]
James
Yeah, it's worth sort of stepping back and going deeper than just sort of the top level three way distinction between the Vanya, the Noldor and the Teleri. And you get that sort of fine distinction between the Teleri and the various groups within. Like, who are the Sindar?
- [27:37]
Alan
Many groups among the Teleri.
- [27:38]
James
Exactly.
- [27:39]
Alan
I mean, that's really. Because the Vanyar are all the Vanyar.
- [27:42]
James
They all go. Yeah.
- [27:43]
Alan
And they don't split. The Noldor don't split, but many of them come back. So you've got the exilic Noldor, but there's only just those two. Either the Noldor that came back or the Noldor that didn't. But with the Tillery. Oh, my goodness.
- [27:56]
James
Yeah, you've got so many. And you need to distinguish the, you know, the Sindar from the ones that made it all the way to Aman. Yeah, you've got to distinguish the ones that, you know, actually stayed with Thingol versus the ones that were with Kirdan. And then there's the ones that broke off beforehand, the Nandor. But even those, there's this distinction between the ones that eventually made their way back to the Beleriand and became the
- [28:21]
Alan
Green elves, the ones in Assyrian.
- [28:23]
James
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [28:24]
Alan
It's wild. It really is. It's a very complex thing, but it helps you understand more about sort of inter elf relations when you understand the different movements of the Teleri.
- [28:36]
James
And of course, so much of this comes down to talking simply wanting to explain.
- [28:41]
Alan
Oh, yeah.
- [28:41]
James
His different dialects, the languages. Languages.
- [28:44]
Alan
Exactly.
- [28:45]
James
How do I. How do I come up with five different variants of this language? Well, I'm gonna have to have five different groups of people separate, Professor.
- [28:53]
Alan
And I know this is wild. You could just come up with two and simplify your story. I mean, I mean, hear me out, man. Just hear me out.
- [29:04]
James
The other thing that blows my mind, and just to remind people, because this is fascinating to me, the whole idea that what we now think of as Sindarin was really only conceived of as being the language of the gray elves during the writing of Lord of the Rings.
- [29:21]
Alan
Yeah, that's true.
- [29:23]
James
He had the language, but it was a Gnomish language. It was a Noldol. It was the language of the Noldor, the exilic Noldor first. And then it was only during the writing of Lord of the Rings, he's like, no, I'm actually gonna. Makes more sense to make this the language of Thingol's people.
- [29:40]
Alan
That's wild.
- [29:41]
James
Ever changing his mind about things, Professor.
- [29:44]
Alan
I wonder how many more times he would have changed his mind. So even though most of the people in Lorien are in fact Sylvan elves, they're led by the text says here, princes of Sindarin descent. And we're reminded this is also the case in northern Mirkwood where Thranduil, Sindarin elf, is leading a Sylvan people. That's interesting. And of course, it leaves in question whether or not Thranduil and Amroth are related. But it's an interesting thing because there's a lot of similarities in the fact that both of them came to their kingship when their fathers died in the Battle of Dagorlad. And then there's also the whole. Let's be honest, Thranduil is Thingol before he got to publish. I mean. Well, it was before he was Thranduil, when he was just the King of the Woodland Realm that we met in the Hobbit. He was very much Thingol.
- [30:36]
James
Oh, yeah, yeah.
- [30:37]
Alan
No longer the case in Lord of the Rings.
- [30:39]
James
Right. He.
- [30:40]
Alan
Where he gets a distinct identity. But it's very interesting because that inspiration was connected to who the Sindar are, right? I mean, it's like he's a Grey Elf. He's not the Noldor. In fact, he hates the Noldor. And it's just a very interesting parallel with Thingol and Thranduil and then with Thranduil and Amroth. Anyway, it's just something to think about.
- [31:05]
James
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [31:07]
Alan
But I like this version because in this version they weren't just a bunch of Teladiran elves, right? Sylvan and Sindar. There were some Noldor, some of the exilic Noldor that had also become part of the people of this land. Now, the text says is Noldor that spoke Sindarin. But that's all of them, isn't it? I mean, all the ones that went back to Middle Earth in exile would have had to speak Sindarin first in Beleriand just to be able to get along because Thingol was like, I don't hear you. So that's all of them. But it is interesting that Noldor Noldorin Elves make it over to Lorien.
- [31:43]
James
Yeah. And they'd come into Lorien via Moria after Eregion was wrecked by Sauron.
- [31:51]
Alan
So late second Age, or mid second Age. Yeah.
- [31:53]
James
Now, Elrond is still said to have founded Imladris. It's really interesting that it says he went westward, Right. Because Imladris is pretty much due north.
- [32:04]
Alan
Pretty much, yeah.
- [32:05]
James
Christopher says probably meaning simply that he did not cross the Misty Mountains. I'm wondering also if it's just that he traveled west and then north. Like, literally, when he left, he went
- [32:17]
Alan
over to Lindon first and then.
- [32:18]
James
Oh, no, not even necessarily that, but like the. The. The start of the journey was. Was west and then. And then curved around. Curved around.
- [32:26]
Alan
Maybe make it over to, like, the Brandoin and then.
- [32:29]
James
Right, yeah, yeah, because he went westward. It doesn't. It's interesting. It doesn't say he went west. He went westward, meaning in the direction.
- [32:39]
Alan
Huh. And he didn't found Imladris westward of Eregion. It's not like he completely forgot his geography. He just started that way.
- [32:46]
James
He departed westward.
- [32:48]
Alan
And by departed, I think we mean ran away from Sauron's army. Because at the time, let's not forget, that's exactly what was going on. Yes, that makes sense. Yeah.
- [32:58]
James
I mean, I guess it's. It's. If you think about sort of other ways you would describe this when. When the Fellowship departs from imladris on the December 25th.
- [33:09]
Alan
Yeah, yeah.
- [33:10]
James
What direction would you say they depart? Not what direction did they go. I mean, the Ring goes south is the name of the. So we know overall they went south, but they may have.
- [33:20]
Alan
Oh, yeah. Who knows? The exit might have been to the. To the west.
- [33:23]
James
To the west, Right, exactly. So who knows?
- [33:26]
Alan
Mordor, Gandalf, is it left or right? So, but this time, and this is interesting, given what we know about Celeborn. Celeborn is the one who is said to have gone over to Lorien to defend it against any attacks that Sauron might make from across the river. And he did this without Galadriel because it was only after Sauron headed down to Mordor. Said, I'm not interested in this neighborhood. You know, looking to secure his eastern borders out there. That's when Celeborn heads off to Lindon to reunite with Galadriel. So once again, they split when they leave Eregion, but for a different reason than we read in the Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn story.
- [34:06]
James
Yeah. And the thing, it puts Celeborn in a Slightly different light.
- [34:11]
Alan
Yeah.
- [34:12]
James
He becomes a lot less subservient and
- [34:15]
Alan
eye candy trophy respectable in this particular version. And he's also less vitriolic towards the dwarves. I mean, the fact that he's able to lead these people there through Moria. I mean, there's nothing saying that he held his nose up the whole time or anything like that, but you know, he did. He's like these dwarves. But he's at least not so blinded by his hatred of the dwarves that he won't go over there.
- [34:41]
James
Right.
- [34:41]
Alan
He sees this as a necessary thing. Like, look, Sauron's just wiped out this realm on this side of the Misty Mountains. I need to go over there, make sure that realm stays safe.
- [34:52]
James
Yep.
- [34:53]
Alan
And he does it like. Yeah, that's a good for you man.
- [34:57]
James
Yep.
- [34:57]
Alan
I'm kind of surprised that Galadriel didn't go with him, but. I don't know. Do you think this is. Maybe we'll see it later. Another version of the story, I think, where she ends up going there to talk specifically with Gil Galad. So maybe it's a ring bearer thing.
- [35:14]
James
Yeah. I. I presume it's something to do with the three.
- [35:18]
Alan
Yeah. Though part of me wonders isn't, wouldn't it be good to always keep the three far apart? Yeah. I mean, strategically.
- [35:25]
James
Right, right, right. Travel separate.
- [35:26]
Alan
Don't. Don't get them all in one place. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
- [35:29]
James
Plane flights. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I don't know.
- [35:33]
Alan
Interesting.
- [35:34]
James
So in this version, late Second Age Lorien is ruled by Armdir, who we talked about a couple of episodes back as possibly also being Malgalad. But as we looked at back then, his forces get destroyed in the Last alliance because they don't want to be under the authority of any Noldor.
- [35:51]
Alan
In other words, girl Gallo. Yeah.
- [35:53]
James
Although that element isn't mentioned in this. In this version.
- [35:55]
Alan
Yeah.
- [35:56]
James
And it's this. Armdia's son that is in fact Amroth.
- [36:00]
Alan
That's right. As opposed to the son of Galadriel and Celeborn. Yep. Noldor. We don't need no stinking Noldor. You know, they were also ill equipped. Right. If I remember correctly, when we read about Mal Galad, they're just. They're a bunch of Sylvan elves. They're. They're Wood Elves. They're not Noldor. They've not fought in battle against these forces before. We'll get to more of that. Because we see that again and it's like, oh, yeah, there's a really good reason why Galadriel wants to be a part of leading them. But again, later in the episode, we'll get to that.
- [36:36]
James
Yep.
- [36:37]
Alan
So we step back from the professor's words for a little bit, and we get Christopher's insight on what we just read. And the first thing is that he points out the big difference between this and the Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn section that we read over episodes 402 and 403, and that is the the Descent of Amroth. Amroth's still here, but now he is the son of Amdir instead of Galadriel and Celeborn.
- [36:58]
James
Yeah. There's more changes in the connections between Galadriel and Celeborn and the two kingdoms of Eregion and Lorien, especially who's where and when. But Christopher rightly wonders just how much of this would have been kept had Tolkien written this into a full story. Right. This is. This is the constant complexity. Right. That we don't know whether this was something that six months later, Tolkien would have changed his mind about. Again, it wasn't in final form at all. He was playing with different ideas. We saw that a couple of weeks ago when we were talking about just how much he kept changing Galadriel right up until the final month that he's live. And so who knows, had he ever sat down to prepare this story for publication, what he would have. What he would have changed?
- [37:48]
Alan
That's an interesting question. We'll have to talk about that, I think, in the P5. Like, what would have made it in a published version? What would he have decided to do? Is it too much to make Amroth their son? Like, everything flows through Galadriel and Celeborn. If that's the case, do we make him independent? That certainly explains their position as more like stewards, as we'll see, rather than, you know, Regent, Queen Regent and King Regent. I mean, they're the. They're the parents of the king. But if they're the parents of the king, how did he become king? Yeah, how did you become king then?
- [38:20]
James
I didn't vote for you.
- [38:22]
Alan
That's right. I can see it now. Lorian is sort of an anarcho syndicalist commune, taking in turns to, you know, be an executive of the week.
- [38:29]
James
It also, though, I was just going to say it gives a new appreciation, I think, for. For Christopher's task in preparing the Silmarillion. Yeah, he talked about this. I think it was last week we read from this where he's. He's sort of like I didn't want to draw on things that were just notes and outlines. Yeah. I wanted, as much as possible, to rely on fully worked narrative texts. Even if his father had subsequently changed his mind about certain things, this. This was sort of the tension where he knew that. That Tolkien had changed his mind, but that change of mind only existed in fragmentary outlines.
- [39:09]
Alan
Exactly. And he has to come up with something that's definitive. He has to land somewhere. That's an unenviable task, because there are going to be times where a large part of the motivation for writing the history of Middle Earth was. I wish I'd done a few things differently in the Silmarillion, especially the frame narrative element, but.
- [39:26]
James
Yep, exactly.
- [39:28]
Alan
You know, it's something that I'm sure was on his mind as he went through all 12 volumes of history of Middle Earth, like. Well, you know what? I couldn't land on a final. So here you go, readers. Here's all the notes you deal with.
- [39:43]
James
All the different versions of.
- [39:44]
Alan
Put it together.
- [39:45]
James
Galadriel and Celeborn and Amroth.
- [39:47]
Alan
Yeah, that's right. You think you could do better than me? Go ahead, give it a try. Oh, man. So one of the other big changes that Christopher talks about here is Celeborn. And we noted this, like, this really changes our view of Celeborn. He's a much more elevated character. He's more independent, more. Has more agency. In the previous story, of course, we'd rather he never, ever went to Lorien during the Second Age because Dwarves. But Galadriel did, and here it's basically the other way around. And in fact, it appears that in this case, the Noldor refugees from Eregion. They didn't all go to Imladris. Many of them went with Celeborn under the mountains to Lorien. Yeah, that's wild.
- [40:27]
James
Yeah. Thus, as Kristo points out, after the fall of Eregion, Celeborn led a bunch of Noldor through Moria to Lorien, while Galadriel went off to consult with the other Ring bearer. But in the part we skipped reading, we learned there's another writing that Tolkien did around the same time, and it has both Galadriel and Celeborn leading Noldor and exiles into Lorien.
- [40:51]
Alan
Now, unlike a lot of the other writings that we'll see, even in this episode he mentioned several, this one does not appear in History of Middle Earth. I don't know what it is, James. You don't? We've not found.
- [41:02]
James
No, no. I mean, it's funny. We've talked about this before that in Unfinished Tales. Christopher, I guess, deems it uninteresting to give details about these. These manuscripts, presumably because he never. He didn't know at the time he was going to be publishing the history of Middle Age. But we often find out later what the manuscripts were. So often it's the shibboleth of Feanor, of dwarves and men, that in Unfin Tales simply get referred to as a, you know, late philological essay or something we made the joke about.
- [41:29]
Alan
Yeah.
- [41:29]
James
In this case, he refers to this writing, but looking in the history of Middle Earth for the words, they don't appear anywhere. So this is a. This is a manuscript or a typescript. I don't think we're told what form it is. This is not something that's been published in. In the history of Middle Earth. And I don't know if you otherwise know anything at all about it.
- [41:49]
Alan
Yeah, it might be the kind of thing. I wonder if it. If it might show up in like, a vineyard, Tengwar somewhere or.
- [41:55]
James
That's possible.
- [41:56]
Alan
But I did look in Nature Middle Earth, and I know that's like the other place where I thought I might find it, and I just couldn't track anything down about this. So we'll have to see. But this other writing does not include or exclude. We can neither confirm nor deny any information on the connection of these two to Lorien prior to the destruction of Eregion in Second Age 1697. There's also, interestingly, no mention at all of Celebrimbor's little uprising, which is an interesting thing that I think I forget about. Like that the idea that Celebrimbor would be led to revolt and depose Galadriel and Celeborn is. I. That's. That's fascinating. Yeah. But. Yeah, no mention of that here. And that's one of those elements you wonder, would he have stayed there with that? Would that have been right?
- [42:44]
James
Was this the final version?
- [42:45]
Alan
Final version, yeah.
- [42:46]
James
Yeah. We're also left to wonder where Galadriel and Celebon spent the rest of the Second Age. There's no more mention of their trip to Belfalas.
- [42:54]
Alan
Yeah. So I guess we just have to speculate on all of this. Right? Where did. In a finished version, where does Galadriel go after the destruction of Eregion? Does she go with Celeborn to Lorien? Does she go by herself to Lorien? Does she go by herself to Lindon? Does she go with Elrond to hold up a sword in the air and Found Imladris, like in Rings of Power. Does she. You know what, where does she go? And what about Celeborn? And is Amaranth their son? Which do you prefer? Do you like the idea of Amroth being her son or not?
- [43:29]
James
I don't know. I mean, we talked about the sort of shift that that would have in certain handling of grief and everything as well. Like it adds. It adds to the. Adds to that. To their grief.
- [43:44]
Alan
Yeah.
- [43:44]
James
And maybe in ways that detract from what happened with Celebrean. I don't necessarily have an objection to Amaroth being their son.
- [43:56]
Alan
I think I prefer that he's not just because I like more branches, more stories, more independent characters. But like you, I don't have an objection to.
- [44:07]
James
Would raise the question of why he's not talked about more in.
- [44:13]
Alan
I mean, he's talked about, but only in the. The Nimrodal context. If I don't bring up Nimmerdel, we certainly don't bring up Amroth. Even though.
- [44:20]
James
Which would be odd.
- [44:21]
Alan
King of this land. Yeah, Right.
- [44:22]
James
Which would be odd if he's Galadriel's son.
- [44:25]
Alan
Yeah.
- [44:26]
James
Yeah.
- [44:27]
Alan
We'll speculate more in the P5. It's a lot of fun to figure out. Kind of like where would we. If you were Tolkien and you're not. If we were Tolkien, who would. And we're certainly not. Where would we send Galadriel? Where would we send Celeborn?
- [44:42]
James
Why?
- [44:42]
Alan
And which story element? We don't get to write our own, but we get to pick one of the ones that Tolkien wrote. One of the bits of wisdom I've learned over the years is that a quality wardrobe doesn't require a closet full of choices. You just need pieces that are flexible, mix well with each other. And last, that's been especially helpful over the last few years with how busy I've been with the podcast and all the related travel too. And that's where Quince really shines. Everyday essentials made with premium fabrics and designed to be versatile and dependable even when the seasons begin to change. I've been telling you about their clothes for a long time now, and for good reason. Quince has the day to day pieces that I love, built with quality that lasts from their lightweight cashmere sweaters to their really comfy jeans. From linen shorts for the summer to tees and 100% Pima cotton. I've worn my cashmere Henley throughout my cool California winter. Looks great. Feels like it costs twice as much as it really does. Quince works directly with the best factories, ones that meet their high standards not just for craftsmanship but ethical production practices. And they cut out the middleman so that you get high quality clothing at affordable prices. Right now go to quince.com pony for free shipping and 365 day returns. That's a full year to build your wardrobe and love it and you will. Now available in Canada too. Don't keep settling for clothes that don't last. Go to Q U I n c e.com pony for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com pony spring is here and there's
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James
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- [47:46]
James
The PPP really does have a warm and welcoming listener community. If you've got questions or just want to talk about how much you love Middle Earth, be sure to check out our common room on Facebook and across all social media. On Facebook, just look for the Prancing Pony Podcast. Yeah, there's a page, but you're going to want to join the group for that great fan community on every social
- [48:04]
Alan
media platform other than Facebook. We're just Prancing Ponypod and you can find our subreddit at R Prancingponypod. Please check out my Daily show, today's Tolkien Times on YouTube and all your favorite podcast apps. That's where you can get your daily Middle Earth fix with everything from Word Nerd Wednesdays to Silmarillion Saturdays. Be sure to watch or listen@YouTube.com rancing pony pod James, take us away with more on Amroth.
- [48:32]
James
Before I do that, you've got me thinking about this frequent fly miles now. Because I'm thinking. I'm thinking they probably had something through. Like it would have been, I don't know, Balerian Express or something that probably offer a. A Mithril card.
- [48:47]
Alan
Exactly.
- [48:47]
James
Exclusively for the. The top tier.
- [48:50]
Alan
Like the Silver Mildor. Right.
- [48:52]
James
Silver Nelves don't get the Mithril.
- [48:54]
Alan
No, no, no, no, no. And they also don't get access to the lounges.
- [48:58]
James
They don't get access to the lounges.
- [49:00]
Alan
That's right. Where you get free snacks.
- [49:03]
James
Wi Fi.
- [49:04]
Alan
That is marginally faster.
- [49:07]
James
Yeah.
- [49:07]
Alan
Also no annual fee, though, because can you imagine if you had to pay an annual fee and you're an elf, you're paying that annual fee for.
- [49:13]
James
You're paying that for a long time.
- [49:15]
Alan
That's a long time.
- [49:16]
James
That is a long time.
- [49:18]
Alan
All right.
- [49:22]
James
Okay. The discussion of Amroth continues. But during the Third Age, Galadriel became filled with foreboding. And with Celeborn, she journeyed to Lorien and stayed there long, with Amroth being especially concerned to learn all news and rumours of the growing shadow in Mirkwood and the dark stronghold in Dol Guldur. But his people were content with Amroth. He was valiant and wise, and his little kingdom was yet prosperous and beautiful. Therefore, after long journeys of inquiry in Rhovanion, from Gondor and the borders of Mordor to Thranduil in the North, Celeborn and Galadriel passed over the mountains to Imladris and there dwelt for many years, for Elrond was their kinsman, since he had early in the Third Age, in the year 109, according to the Tale of Years, wedded their daughter Celebrian. After the disaster in Moria in the year 1980 and the sorrows of Lorien, which was now left without a ruler, for Amroth was drowned in the sea in the Bay of Belfalas, and left no heir, Celeborn and Galadriel returned to Lorien and were welcomed by the people there. They dwelt while the Third Age lasted, but they took no title of king or queen, for they said that they were only guardians of this small but fair realm, the last eastward outpost of the Elves.
- [50:53]
Alan
All right, James, I cannot be the only one who's starting to get a little confused by all the different stories of Galadriel and King Celeborn's whereabouts, but at least this one's really interesting.
- [51:03]
James
It is interesting. Yeah.
- [51:04]
Alan
Yeah. They spend a lot of the early years of the Third Age in Lorien with Amroth, even though he's not their son. So it's like, okay, they're. I don't know, counselors, advisors, maybe. I don't know what kind of role they're playing there, but they're there looking to gain news about Dol Guldur and its occupant.
- [51:23]
James
Right.
- [51:24]
Alan
They want to know what's going on. There's a line here that's really interesting I want to focus on. The folk of Lorien are said to be happy with King Amroth, but what do you make of this line? But. But his people were content with Amroth.
- [51:37]
James
Yeah.
- [51:38]
Alan
Are they. Is the text telling us that Galadriel and Celeborn might have remained here in a different role if they weren't happy with him? I mean, they weren't trying to usurp him, were they?
- [51:48]
James
I don't know. It's. It's.
- [51:50]
Alan
But they were happy with him, so they left.
- [51:56]
James
We're just going to hang around just in case you don't like him.
- [51:58]
Alan
Yeah.
- [51:59]
James
Just in case you're looking for an alternative, if you.
- [52:02]
Alan
Yeah, we're not. We're not necessarily actively usurping, but if y' all like us better than him, just.
- [52:08]
James
We wouldn't say. We wouldn't say.
- [52:09]
Alan
No, that's right. We'd love to help you.
- [52:11]
James
Well, what side is. And we'll get to this. What's odd is that, as you continue to read, they actually sound quite caring and altruistic. It doesn't.
- [52:19]
Alan
They really do. Yeah. Because they come back and they're not. They're like, we don't even want to be king and queen. We're just the Guardians. And that theme is repeated in another version of the story later. Yeah, the whole idea, this. This theme that, you know, they don't want to be the lord and lady or the king and queen. They just want to be the Guardians.
- [52:35]
James
Yeah. So I don't know what that. But, I mean, it does sound like they left because Amroth was still popular. Amroth was fine.
- [52:45]
Alan
His approval were through the roof.
- [52:47]
James
Exactly. Fine. We'll leave then.
- [52:48]
Alan
Yeah.
- [52:49]
James
But whatever the case, they end up spending a lot of the third age until 1980 as we'll see, taking long journeys throughout Wilderland, going all the way from Gondor to Mordor up to the north end of Mirkwood. And then they head over the mountains to Rivendell.
- [53:04]
Alan
Sort of reminds me a little bit about the very end of Tal Omar when, you know, Tal Omar and Rhun. Tal Omar in Rhovanion, Tal Omar in the Shire. I mean, you know, I wonder if they ran into Tal Omar while they're wandering around here. Certainly they were following his tour itinerary, by the way. Of course, the fact they ended up in the mountains in Rivendell, it's a good thing that Elrond likes his in laws. Can you imagine? Your parents in law show up. We're just going to live here for a while, son.
- [53:35]
James
But what do you think they were doing on these long journeys? Intelligence gathering missions, like they. To learn all news and rumors bit.
- [53:44]
Alan
Yeah, I mean, what were they doing? Was this an extended vacation? Was this an opportunity to check in on other Elven communities? Maybe they're checking on.
- [53:54]
James
I don't know. I like this idea that Tal Elmar, like, when he went to all these places in the unwritten parts of the story that, you know, he produced, like travel guides and stuff like that. He was the Rick Steves.
- [54:09]
Alan
He was the Rick Steves of Middle Earth.
- [54:12]
James
Middle Earth. And, you know, so Galadriel and Celeborn are kind of like, you know, that's. We've got a few. We've got a few years to kill. Let's work our way through the Talma travel guide.
- [54:24]
Alan
Let's go. I mean, it's sort of a bucket list thing.
- [54:27]
James
The Lonely Arda book on Rhovanian on
- [54:34]
Alan
10 bucks a day.
- [54:37]
James
Then we get the Moria Downfall, which is also the end of Amroth leaving Lorien without a ruler. Because Amroth never wed and never had an heir.
- [54:46]
Alan
They had a tape measure, but they didn't have a ruler. That's a terrible dad joke. I apologize. Galadriel and Kilborn return then, because now they are without a king. And this is interesting. It's like you talked about sort of that altruistic thing. They are welcomed by both the Sylvan and Sindar elves. There's not that. Ooh, Noldor. You know, because of course, Celeborn isn't. And that helps.
- [55:09]
James
Right?
- [55:09]
Alan
Right.
- [55:10]
James
I mean, I think that helps in any version.
- [55:12]
Alan
In any of the versions. That's correct. Though we're gonna run into an interesting story later about a very famous elf who Tolkien briefly toyed with the idea of being an Oldor teaser for those of you who are interested.
- [55:24]
James
All right.
- [55:25]
Alan
But Galadriel and Celeborn choose not to be king and queen. They're just guardians. And I'll tell you what, that moment, that word made me think about the role of Gandalf. Remember when he's having that argument with Denethor and he says at the end of it. For I, too, am a steward.
- [55:46]
James
Right.
- [55:46]
Alan
Or did you not know? And it's steward, Guardian. They're not the same word. But it's that concept of protecting. And I really like that. This is a big. And it's something. I feel like this is one that we can probably pin our hat on in terms of what Tolkien wanted for these two because it is repeated and it's never suggested anywhere that they're king and queen of.
- [56:10]
James
Right. Right. And I wonder. Just coming back to the usurping question earlier, we can play that a little more kindly to Galadriel and Celebor. And we can think of it as they were just wanting to make sure that the people. People were happy.
- [56:28]
Alan
Right.
- [56:28]
James
And once they realized that Amroth was a good king and that the people were going to be well served by him as their ruler.
- [56:37]
Alan
Kids are okay. The kids are all right.
- [56:40]
James
Yeah. You don't need us. Yeah. And that's what. When they left.
- [56:43]
Alan
And that's a much better way of putting it. I like that. And I think that's.
- [56:46]
James
And that's more consistent. I mean, it's more consistent with this. These actions here. So I think.
- [56:51]
Alan
And it still works with the whole. But because it was that. It was the inclusion of the word but in the reading through me. Like what? But okay. That actually makes a lot more sense. Like, they're there to make sure this very important, strategically important kingdom is under a good ruler. And once they discovered that it is. All right, well, it's time for us to go maybe check on other realms that we don't even know about. Right. They do go and check on Thranduil. I'm not sure he was thrilled with. Like, you know. Are you coming to check to make sure I'm a good king? There's some dwarves later who will have an opinion on that.
- [57:26]
James
Oh, yeah. Yeah.
- [57:28]
Alan
It's just. It's interesting stuff.
- [57:30]
James
Yeah. Now we skipped a chunk that talks about their movements some more. But let's recap.
- [57:35]
Alan
Yeah.
- [57:36]
James
We're told they get back to Lorien twice in the Second Age, but that they ended up living there for a long time after Sauron's return in the third we've seen before, how Galadriel thinks strategically, like, hey, those Dwarves would be good anti Orc fighters.
- [57:51]
Alan
Right?
- [57:51]
James
Remember, she was attracted to them for that reason. And she does it again here, realizing that Lorien is a choke point of sorts. Right. Defending the river from Sauron, crossing it in force. There aren't a lot of places for an army to cross, but let's talk through them a bit.
- [58:09]
Alan
Yeah, we'll kind of look at the spots from north to south at the very northern portion of the Anduin. I mean, obviously you could go around all the way up past its sources and try to come back to. That's going to be tricky because it's got its sources in the mountains that run east, west at the very north end of the Misty Mountains. But so from north to south, you can cross first at the old ford, and that's located south of Beorn's Halls. In a couple of more chapters, when I cover the disaster of the Gladden Fields with Dawn Marshall, he and I are going to come across a note that gives us more detail about the ford, because the ford is on the Dwarf road. That's the old forest road from the Hobbit.
- [58:47]
James
Tolkien once described a quote here. The ancient forest road that led down from the Pass of Imladris and crossed Anduin by a bridge that had been enlarged and strengthened for the passage of the armies of the Alliance. And so over the eastern valley into the Greenwood.
- [59:05]
Alan
Wow. Now, before we go on. So this ford, which is just a ford now, ford is not, despite all my jokes about come on down to ford of Bruin. And it's just a place where you cross a river because it's shallow. And this used to actually have a bridge here that had been made bigger and stronger to support the passage of an entire army during the Last Alliance. So this would have been the Elves, because they spent, what, two or three years in Rivendell preparing for the battle and doing all their work and getting everything ready to roll. So they would have brought those forces over the mountains and crossed the river here.
- [59:43]
James
Yeah, I guess so.
- [59:45]
Alan
And then gone down the east bank of the Anduin all the way down. And I think we'll see why that is. It's because there's not a lot of other places to cross. Anyway, continue with that note, because that text actually comes from that footnote that Don and I are going to see when we cover that chapter later this season.
- [60:01]
James
Yeah, he continues talking about crossing the Anduin anywhere south at that point, the Anduin could not be bridged at any lower point for a few miles below the forest road, the land fell steeply and the river became very swift until it reached the great basin of the Gladden fields.
- [60:21]
Alan
And obviously, you're not gonna be able to bridge an entire swamp after that. The Anduin still wasn't crossable because we read it quickened again and was then a great flood fed by many streams. So you don't really get another bridge point across the Enduin until you get all the way down to Osgiliath. So there's the old ford and Osgiliath way to the south. And the only spot between them where an army could cross is the Undeeps, which is just south of where the limb light reaches the Anduin. And the limb light is Lorien's southern border. So strategically, very important spot.
- [60:59]
James
Yeah. So from Lorien, they could see any force moving either north for the old forest road, the old forward, or south for the Undeeps, and they could respond accordingly. Now, there's a line here that reflects the long defeat feeling, the war that must inevitably come before the Shadow was again defeated. If that were possible.
- [61:25]
Alan
If that were possible. Hits hard, doesn't it? You know, I mean, this is definitely foreshadowing the idea of fighting the long defeat and the idea that this may not be a winnable battle, but we have to fight it, and it is inevitable that war will come. And so they are preparing for it. That's why they're here in this later version that we didn't read. I also like that there's the typical expected dig on the Sylvan elves. Galadriel recognizing that Lorien needed a rule of greater strength and wisdom than those poor primitive elves could provide. This is what we were talking about earlier is, you know, we're going to come to this sort of, we're better than you. But let's talk about this. In all honesty, she's kind of right. I mean, as a Noldo who fought in the First Age wars against Morgoth in Beleriand, she's going to have a much better understanding of dealing with Sauron and dealing with his forces than a Sylvan elf who's been living in relative peace on this side of the Misty Mountains for thousands of years.
- [62:32]
James
Yeah, I was going to ask that question. Is it simply the experience of the Beleriandic wars that gives that sort of superiority?
- [62:45]
Alan
Well, she's also seen the trees.
- [62:48]
James
Well, in her case. But I'm thinking more. I'm thinking more generally of. Of Sindarin versus. Yeah.
- [62:56]
Alan
Because any of the exilic Gnolly.
- [62:59]
James
Yeah. In the case of anyone who's seen the trees, it's a different.
- [63:02]
Alan
That is a different. That's a whole nother. That's almost like another being.
- [63:05]
James
Right. Any cinder and elf other than thingol.
- [63:08]
Alan
So let's say Thranduil, for instance.
- [63:10]
James
Sure.
- [63:11]
Alan
You know what gives him the right to lead the Sylvan Elves.
- [63:14]
James
Yes.
- [63:15]
Alan
Yeah. I mean, I suppose at that point the only distinction is the Beleriandic wars, right? I mean, you survived the Dagor Bragalach and the Neonitharnoidiad because if you didn't, you wouldn't be here. So your knowledge and your exposure to that experience is going to help these elves who are otherwise going to find out the hard way that this is not what they thought it was going to be.
- [63:45]
James
Yeah. Not that one group ruling over another requires the group to actually be superior. But I'm just. But I'm wondering if there is something here beside just them being the colonizing force.
- [64:02]
Alan
That's a good point. I mean, really, in order to rule over the Sylvan Elves the Sylvan Elves sort of have to accept that they're superior. And Galadriel has to see herself as superior. Clearly the latter is not a problem. They need a rule of greater strength and wisdom. So clearly she sees herself as more than competent to the task.
- [64:21]
James
But yeah, I mean, I think that the seeing the trees is a kind of objective point of superiority in this world.
- [64:28]
Alan
That certainly is. But even then, right, they're still, as we'll read later, they're still just viewing themselves as guardians. She may be ruling the place, but it's not with the idea of king and queenship. So, yep, we do get in this passage that we skipped another Sauron Balrog connection that I really want to kind of touch on a little bit. After the dwarves left in third age 1980 we read that by means beyond the foresight of Galadriel Sauron's power actually crossed the Anduin. In other words, Sauron himself didn't, but his power did. And it seems to be connected to the departure of the Dwarves which to me is an inference that Sauron's power is what led the Balrog to do what it did. Now, we talked before. He's not a servant of Sauron. He's very independent, does his own thing. But I'm beginning. When I see a bit of text like that it makes me think Sauron had a lot more to do with this than maybe we think in terms of waking it up. Or saying, hey, go over here where the Dwarves will release you. It's just an intriguing thing. How did Sauron's power cross the Anduin? And my goodness. It was beyond the foresight of Galadriel that he could do this.
- [65:45]
James
Right.
- [65:45]
Alan
That's something.
- [65:46]
James
Yeah.
- [65:47]
Alan
I don't know. What are your thoughts on this? Both beyond her foresight, but also Sauron's power crossing the river, even if his presence doesn't.
- [65:55]
James
I don't know if I have anything more to add than what you've said, but it is intriguing on both points. And the timing, of course. Right, yeah. The timing is the 1980. Which, as you've said before, it's always funny because I know.
- [66:14]
Alan
I mean, I remember gas lines, but this, you know, I don't. That wasn't Sauron's power forcing me to. You know. Though that was probably 1978, not 1980, now that I think about it.
- [66:25]
James
But since they'd lost Amroth at this time and now Lorien was under threat, Galadriel and Celeborn moved to Lorien and again are said to take no title.
- [66:35]
Alan
Yeah, yeah. That really rings true for me. Right. This idea. That's not what they're here for.
- [66:41]
James
Yeah. Similar timeline here for their return to Lorien after 1980. And similar roles and purposes to care for a kingless people. But as guardians. There's no long journeys here, though, right? There's no trip to Rivendell that's specifically called out. It's more just these sad people need a better ruler. How about us?
- [67:03]
Alan
Yeah, that's kind of it. I mean, it's. It's all these poor people. They've lost their king. They're vulnerable to Sauron. You know, Dol Guldur is right across the river. They need. They need strong guidance. They need experienced hands. They need wise and strong leader.
- [67:21]
James
Yeah.
- [67:22]
Alan
So let's. Let's set up shop here. But it's still the humility to say, not as king and queen.
- [67:28]
James
Yep. Yeah. Okay. Let's move on to yet another etymological discussion. Take it away for us, Alan.
- [67:38]
Alan
I will. It's wild how many of these things just come from linguistic things. And we're going to start with Christopher's editorial notes here. In another etymological discussion of the same period, the name Amroth is explained as being a nickname name derived from his living in a High Talan or flet, the wooden platforms built high up in the trees of Lothlorien in which the Galadhrim dwelt. It meant up Climber. High climber. It is said here that the custom of dwelling in trees was not a habit of the Silvan elves in general, but was developed in Lorien by the nature and situation of the land, a flat land with no good stone except what might be quarried in the mountains westward and brought with difficulty down the silver lode. Its chief wealth was in its trees, a remnant of the great forests of the Elder days. But the dwelling in trees was not universal even in Lorien, and the tellaein or flets were in origin either refuges to be used in the event of attack, or most often especially those high up in great trees, outlook posts from which the land and its borders could be surveyed by Elvish eyes. For Lorien, after the end of the first millennium of the Third Age, became a land of uneasy vigilance. And Amroth must have dwelt in growing disquiet ever since Dol Guldur was established in Mirkwood. And it's after that that we move into Tolkien's writings rather than Christopher's notes. Such an outlook post used by the wardens of the North Marches was the flat in which Frodo spent the night. The abode of Celeborn in Karasganadhon was also of the same origin. Its highest flat, which the Fellowship of the Ring did not see, was the highest point in the land. Earlier, the flood of Amroth at the top of the great mound or hill of Kettern. Amroth, piled by the labor of many hands, had been the highest, and was principally designed to watch Dol Guldur across the Anduin. The conversion of these Telline into permanent dwellings was a later development, and only in Caras Galadhon were such dwellings numerous. But Karas Galadhon was itself a fortress, and only a small part of the Galadhrim dwelt within its walls. Living in such lofty houses was no doubt at first thought remarkable. Side note, or maybe weird, I don't know, coming back to the text. And Amroth was probably the first to do so. It was thus from his living in a high talon that his name, the only one that was later remembered in legend, was most probably derived.
- [70:26]
James
So yet again, we get another etymological discussion that leads to all this world building.
- [70:32]
Alan
Yeah, yeah, it's just wild. So Christopher explains, amaranth might not actually have been the guy's name, you know, but rather a nickname, and it means up climber or high climber, based on his living on a flat or talon. So lots to Talk about here. First up, the words flat is just simply a Middle English word for floor, and it's the word used to represent this concept in Westeron.
- [70:57]
James
Talon, on the other hand, is the singular noun for what Tolkien says is a flat space platform form. Talked about in Words, Phrases and passages in Palm Elder Lambaron 17.
- [71:08]
Alan
Yep, that makes an appearance on many episodes of the ppp, of course.
- [71:12]
James
Fantastic resource for this stuff. Telline would be the plural. So this is an example of that vowel harmony, like adan, man becoming edain, men, or in fact, actually man and men. Here's an example in English.
- [71:24]
Alan
Man and men is another example. Good job.
- [71:26]
James
Foot and feet is another one as well. So telline, the plural of talon.
- [71:31]
Alan
Now, this word talon or teline, only applies to an elevated platform without walls, rather than a floor inside a building. So only this sort of thing, also known as a place. I don't want to be without walls. Can we at least have guardrails? Is that asking too much?
- [71:52]
James
It's funny that in Aerie, in Game of Thrones, you know, they do that for the prisons.
- [71:57]
Alan
Oh, do they?
- [71:58]
James
The prison rooms don't have walls. But here the elves are quite happy with it. They love it. It's a bit of a contrast.
- [72:06]
Alan
This would terrify me. Being in a tree. I could not be a body length away from the edge. I'd be like, keep me six feet away from the edge and I'll be all right. But other than that, no, no, no, no.
- [72:18]
James
Now, secondly, we're given the name's meaning, and for this, let's take a closer look at the footnote here. The arm element in Amaroth's name is supposed to be the same Elvish word as Quenya amber, or up, found also in the Sindarin. Amon, a hill or mountain with steep sides. Right.
- [72:37]
Alan
So am is up. Right. I mean, that's how you get Amon, a hill or mountain with steep sides. Christopher then explains about the second element, and that's a derivative, he says, from a stem, wrath, meaning climb. Now we see that same element in the noun wrath, which Christopher explains in the footnote in the Numerorian Sindarin, used in Gondor in the naming of places and persons, was applied to all the longer roadways and streets of Minas Tirith, nearly all of which were on an incline. So Rath Dinan, the silent street leading down from the Citadel to the tombs of the kings.
- [73:15]
James
Yes, it's almost. Almost literally the silent incline.
- [73:19]
Alan
Yeah.
- [73:19]
James
Because you've got to climb it.
- [73:20]
Alan
Yeah, yeah. And all of the streets in Minas Tiris that are long.
- [73:24]
James
They're things you have to climb, that's what.
- [73:26]
Alan
Yeah, I mean, like the main road that goes up and, you know, to the gates and switching back. But we're never given that name. But certainly it would be Roth something because it's a steep incline.
- [73:35]
James
The entire time involves a lot of climbing.
- [73:37]
Alan
Yeah, Everybody in Gondor has massive quads.
- [73:42]
James
When we get to Lorian in Fellowship of the Ring, they're all up on these Teline. So why would it make Amroth special? Well, we're told it wasn't the custom of Silver nelves in general, but it was necessitated by the land in Lorien. It's a flat land. There's no hills or mountains from which to quarry stone.
- [73:59]
Alan
Now, I mean, sure, they could go up the Silver Load to the Misty Mountains, but that's a lot of effort. And so instead they just went with what they had. Their chief wealth was in their trees, of course. That makes me think of Eldarion and his.
- [74:12]
James
Yeah.
- [74:13]
Alan
Oh, I see. We should probably make some great stuff out of of this. Like what?
- [74:20]
James
Still living in the trees wasn't the general rule even here. The flats were originally either places to go in case of attack, or outlooks on southern Mirkwood.
- [74:30]
Alan
Right. So when we get back to the professor's writings, he tells us that it was one of these outlooks in the northern part of the land where Frodo spent the night. And so too was this place where Galadriel and Celeborn lived. It was originally an outlook.
- [74:43]
James
And while its highest flit was the highest point in all of lorien in 3019, that wasn't the case during Amroth's reign, right? No, it was a flat at the top of Keren Amroth naming clearly wasn't his strong suit, which was intended to keep an eye on Dol Guldor.
- [75:01]
Alan
Right. I think it's interesting that we read in this text that the great mound, or hill of Cataramroth was piled by the labor of many hands. This is an artificial hill. That's fascinating to me. They were like, we need a place to build an outlook. So we're going to build this hill and then plant trees and let them grow for a few hundred years. Because we're elves. So that's like next week, and then we'll put a talon at the top. Right. That's fascinating. Like, that's not an actual natural hill. It's one they built. That makes sense, given what they just Said this is a flat land. So they had to build a hill in order to make sure they could get a really high point. Anyway, so these outlooks eventually become permanent dwellings much, much, much later on. And it's really only within the walls of Katasgaradhon, where there are a lot of them. The text reminding us, by the way, that Katas Galadhan is literally a fortress. Most of Lorien's people live outside of its walls.
- [75:58]
James
And the point is that living in one of these was, at the time, extraordinary, and that Amroth was probably the first to do so, and that's what gave him his nickname, Living in a high Flat. And we're even told that this is the only name that was later remembered. And, no, we don't know if he had another name, let him know what it might have been.
- [76:19]
Alan
Some say it was Joe. Yeah, that's the thing. I mean, like, we don't know whether this is the true story. We don't know if. We just don't know anything. Tolkien's not given us the data. So we did skip a small part of the reading. And in that, Tolkien added a note to that bit about Amroth likely being the first to live on a flat. Because Tolkien likes to change his mind all the time. He goes, unless it was Nimmerdell.
- [76:46]
James
Right?
- [76:47]
Alan
He kind of goes off of this little tangent because she was definitely different. I mean, if anybody's going to live in a flat when ain't nobody else living in flats, it's going to be Nimmerdale.
- [76:57]
James
Originally, she lived near the river that bears her name, but as time went on, that part of Lorien was emptier of people, and she may have moved further in, but also up to stay away from everyone else.
- [77:07]
Alan
Yeah, I mean, she would have liked being on the northern part where nobody lived, but it wasn't safe anymore. That was the problem. Right? So she might have had to move towards where people were, but in order to stay isolated, because she didn't like any of these people, she. She would have decided, I'm just gonna go live up in the trees. And so she does, you know, And Amaranth's like, I'll. I'll do that, too.
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James
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Alan
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James
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- [79:07]
James
We told you about the amazing PPP community after our earlier break. If you're part of that community and want to enjoy something even more special, come join the Fellowship of the Podcast on Patreon. You get to be in the best discord community around, one that includes host hangouts and even live episode recordings.
- [79:23]
Alan
And your support there is what enables me to work full time doing all of the shows. The Prancing Pony podcast, of course, but also Today's Tolkien Times, the Rings of Power Wrap up, and my streaming show the PC PPP Plays. When you join, you also get episode postscripts ad free episodes, free merch and more.
- [79:39]
James
And you can join our questions after Nightfall episodes or even appear as a guest in the north wing. Go to patreon.com brancingponypod to show your support and join the Fellowship of the Podcast.
- [79:50]
Alan
And don't forget to rate and review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And please recommend us to your friends. And you can do that directly on Spotify now, just from the app map itself. James, let's go ahead and get back to the story of Amaroth and Nimrodel rather than Amaroth's name, and I'm gonna have you take the next reading if you would.
- [80:10]
James
Sure. So, Christopher Notes returning to the legend of Amroth and Nimrodel given above, what was the haven in the south where Amroth waited for Nimrodil, and where, as he told her, many of his own people had come long ago? Two passages in the Lord of the Rings bear On this question, one is in the Fellowship of the Ring, where Legolas, after singing the song of Amroth and Nimrodil, speaks of the Bay of Belfalas, whence the elves of Lorien set sail. The other is in the Return of the King, where Legolas, looking on Prince Imrahil of Dol Amroth saw that he was one who had Elven blood in his veins, and said to him, it is long since the people of Nimrodel left the woodlands of Lorien, and yet still one may see that not all sailed from Amrath's Haven west over water. To which Prince Imrahil replied, so it is said in the lore of my land. Late and fragmentary notes go some way to explaining these references. Thus, in a discussion of linguistic and political interrelations in Middle earth dating from 1969 or later, there is a passing reference to the fact that in the days of the earliest settlements of Numenor, the shores of the Bay of Belfalus were still mainly desolate, except for a haven and small settlement of elves at the south of the confluence of Morthond and Ringlow. Tolkien himself wrote this. According to the traditions of Dol, Amroth had been established by seafaring Sindar from the west havens of Beleriand, who fled in three small ships when the power of Morgoth overwhelmed the Eldar and the Atani. But it was later increased by adventurers of the Silvan elves seeking for the sea, who came down Anduin and back to Christopher. The Silvan elves, it is remarked here, were never wholly free of an unquiet and a yearning for the sea, which at times drove some of them to wander from their homes. To relate this story of the three small ships to the traditions recorded in the Silmarillion, we would probably have to assume that they escaped from Brithombar or Eglarest, the havens of the Falas on the west coast of Beleriand, when they were destroyed in the year after the near ninth Ana Etihad, but that whereas Cirdan and Gil Galad made a refuge on the isle of Bala, these three ships companies sailed far further south down the coasts to Belfalas.
- [82:54]
Alan
So last episode, when we went through the main legend of Amroth and Nimmerdel, the primary story we mentioned how the haven in the south where Amroth stuck around waiting for her to show up was of course Aelon. But here we get a lot more on the tradition surrounding its founding, and then we'll get yet another account in our Next and final reading today, Christopher
- [83:14]
James
points out the two passages in Lord of the Rings that talk about this southern haven Legolas singing about. These two talks about the Bay of Belfalas, whence the elves of Lorien set sail. In other words, not the Grey Havens. Right at this place.
- [83:29]
Alan
And of course, not the Grey Havens, because they kind of don't like the Noldor.
- [83:33]
James
Right. The other is also Legolas, where he encounters Imrahil and sees the influence of Elven ancestry, mentioning Nimrodel and how not all sailed from Amroth's haven.
- [83:45]
Alan
And we'll come to more of that later, of course. But he then brings in some more notes from his father. Here he says late in fragmentary notes, and that there was a discussion of linguistic and political interrelations. I love it. Political interrelations. We're here to tell you these aren't just latent fragmentary notes. This is of Dwarves and men found in the peoples of Middle Earth. And it's actually in a section about the term Middlemen and how in the early days of Numenorean expansion to Middle Earth, men simply weren't living near the coasts.
- [84:15]
James
There we read the bit that Christopher points out here. The area around the Bay of Belfalus was mostly empty except for that haven. It's a footnote to that passage that we see here in Tolkien's words, that it had been founded by seafaring Sindar, Grey Elves who fled Beleriand in three small ships. Then the haven saw a population increase from Sylvan Elves who came down the Anduin.
- [84:44]
Alan
So it's interesting that the Sylvan Elves come down and, you know, want to head out to sea. And even that passage of Dwarves and men, it describes Sylvan Elves as laggards in the hindmost companies who had never crossed the Misty Mountains. Still, though, they apparently had that yearning for the sea that they all have. And I thought that was interesting. Like, you know, we see that really strongly in the tellery. Right. I mean, in, you know, with the building of the boats and. And these are Teleri in origin. These aren't, of course, like the exilic Noldor who've gone over to Aman and come back and have a. A of lot love for the sea, a desire for the sea that is more of like a homecoming sense. This isn't that. This is just the very inherent sort of desire for the sea.
- [85:26]
James
Yeah. So it's interesting. I can't help but wonder. I mean, this suggests that that sea longing is something that all of the elves that woke up in Quivienen had.
- [85:39]
Alan
Yeah, I was gonna say, what about the Avari, even? I wonder.
- [85:42]
James
Well, I wonder. Well, maybe that's where the division is. Because maybe, and this is pure speculation, but it seems. Seems to work that, you know, they received the call to go west to come to Amman, to come to Valinor. And I can't help but wonder if an aspect of that call was the sea that what was instilled upon them on the return of the ambassadors. Right. The three ambassadors went off and then came back from. Well, did. Hang on a sec. Did Elway and Alway both go the first time round and then.
- [86:16]
Alan
Oh, I don't remember. I'd have to look that one up.
- [86:19]
James
Why would two Teller ambassadors go. Because the only reason they had two rulers is.
- [86:23]
Alan
Was to lead the many people. Yeah, I think it was only.
- [86:27]
James
It was only Elway.
- [86:28]
Alan
It was only Elway.
- [86:29]
James
Yeah. Yeah, it makes more sense. So, you know, those ambassadors went over, came back and basically encouraged their people to go.
- [86:35]
Alan
Yeah, we should go.
- [86:37]
James
And obviously the Avari didn't. But I'm wondering if. So I would exclude the Avari here.
- [86:42]
Alan
Yeah.
- [86:43]
James
But I'm wondering if the rest of them. Part of that draw was the sea.
- [86:48]
Alan
The same thing that originally drew them from the beginning.
- [86:51]
James
Even the ones that left, Even the Nandor that left at the Anduin.
- [86:57]
Alan
Yeah.
- [86:57]
James
Still had that. They still, in the back of their minds were like, we haven't. In fact, it's even worse. They've never even seen the sea. They still want to travel on it, but they've never even seen it. And. And so it does make sense to me that even the Sylvan elves would have that sea longing. It's not because they all the way
- [87:15]
Alan
back to their nature as part of that same tribe as the rest of the Teleri.
- [87:18]
James
Yeah, it's. It's, as you said, more inherent than simply they've seen it. It's that they've. They've been told about it. They've longed for it.
- [87:28]
Alan
Yeah. For generations and millennia.
- [87:31]
James
Yeah.
- [87:31]
Alan
I come back. Actually, part of it comes back to that line in the Silmarillion that it is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the music of the Ainur more than in any substance else that is in this Earth. And many of the children of Iluvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the sea, and yet know not for what they listen. Yeah, that's interesting. I like that. They still have that sea Longing. I think you're right, though, that to separate the Ivari, because they're the ones who didn't even want to go in
- [88:00]
James
the first place, like, so one might presume that they did not ever have that longing. Right. They didn't see. Why do we care about that?
- [88:09]
Alan
Yeah, why do I? I've got perfectly good land here. Why would I want, you know, ocean views and coastal properties then? I just have high property taxes.
- [88:19]
James
Now, Christopher points out, though, that in order to tie the origin story of A into what the published Silmarillion says, we'd have to assume they left either Brithombar or Eglerest, which were the havens on the west coast of Beleriand.
- [88:34]
Alan
Those are the same places where Cirdan and Gil Galad left from. They ended up on the isle of Balar. But here, though, I gotta say, these Sindar, for them to go all the way from there to Belfalas, That's a long way, James.
- [88:50]
James
Yeah, that's a lot further. So Beleriand was all to the west of Ered Luin.
- [88:56]
Alan
Yeah.
- [88:57]
James
Sank eventually. But it's about six times further to go from the Falas to Belfalas than to Bala.
- [89:04]
Alan
That's wild. It's a huge distance. There aren't a lot of. Certainly Tolkien never made a map that combined Beleriand and Middle Earth, but there are those maps out there where people
- [89:14]
James
have taken the map, tried to reconstruct
- [89:16]
Alan
it, and layer one on top of the other and. Which you can do because of the way the arid loom and are. You just sort of connect it there. You sort of have to fill in the blanks.
- [89:25]
James
I think you have to try to match up tomorrow and. Or something like there's. There's other little things you need to do because it's not clear the scale exactly, but you can.
- [89:34]
Alan
No, it's. It's hard because the Gulf of Lune, of course, wasn't a gulf, so. And then you also have to fill in the blanks with where those rivers like. Like the Branduin and the. The Guafo, where they come out onto the ocean and Middle Earth, they would have come out further when Balerion was still in existence. But you draw that map, or you see these maps and you realize they sailed a long, long, long way to the southeast to make it all the way to Belfalas on three small ships.
- [90:06]
James
Yeah.
- [90:07]
Alan
Are these the Nina, the Pinta and the Santa Maria? Wait, this was in second age, 1492. Right. I mean, that's a long way. But I mean, Christopher's right. That's the only way to reconcile this. Yep. Because where else would they have left? In Beleriand.
- [90:27]
James
Yep.
- [90:27]
Alan
Yeah. I mean, I guess maybe if they left at the Mouths of Sirion, it still would have been like five times as long. Because, I mean, the Mouths of Sirion are basically where the Isle of Balar are, or is. Yeah, right.
- [90:39]
James
Yeah.
- [90:40]
Alan
Yeah. It's just crazy.
- [90:42]
James
Yeah.
- [90:43]
Alan
It's hard for me to buy that three small ships made it all the way there, but they are elven ships. Elven ships don't sink, it seems. I mean, you know, we're told that basically with. With the story of Amroth, like, all the men's ships got blown out to sea and sank, but this little ship where the elves were on that survived long enough for Amroth to jump off. Bar Miz Funerary Shipir's little tiny boat.
- [91:07]
James
Funerary boat. Yeah.
- [91:08]
Alan
Yeah, that's true. My goodness.
- [91:10]
James
Anyway, let's continue. Alan, would you read for us?
- [91:14]
Alan
I'll finish it up for today. This sort of is almost a standalone section. It very much connects to Nimmerdel, but this is more about the princes of Dol Amroth as we'll read. So, starting with Christopher's words in a Note written in December 1972 or later, and among the last writings of my fathers on the subject of Middle Earth, there is a discussion of the elvish strain in men as to its being observable in the beardlessness of those who were so descended. It was a characteristic of all elves to be beardless, and it is here noted in connection with the princely house of Dol Amroth, that this line had a special elvish strain according to its own legends. And then we transition into Tolkien's own writings. As Legolas mention of Nimrodel shows, there was an ancient elvish port near Dol Amroth and a small settlement of Silvan elves there. From Lorien. The legend of the prince's line was that one of their earliest fathers had wedded an elf maiden. In some versions, it was indeed evidently improbably said to have been Nimrodel herself. In other tales, and more probably, it was one of Nimrodel's companions who was lost in the upper mountain glens. Christopher continues. This latter version of the legend appears in more detailed form in a note appended to an unpublished genealogy of the line of Dol Amroth From Angelimar, the 20th Prince, father of Adrahil, father of Imrahil, prince of Dol Amroth at the time of the War of the Ring. And then he provides us that note. So this is back to Tolkien's writings. In the tradition of his house, Angelimar was the 20th in unbroken descent from Galador, 1st Lord of Dol Amroth. According to the same traditions, Galador was the son of Imrazor, the Numenorean who dwelt in Belfalas, and the Elven lady Mithrilas. She was one of the companions of Nimrodel among many of the elves that fled to the coast about the year 1980 TA when evil arose in Moria, and Nimrodel and her maidens strayed in the wooded hills and were lost. But in this tale it is said that Imrazor harbored Mithrelas and took her to wife. But when she had borne him a son, Galador, and a daughter, Gilmith, she slipped away by night, and he saw her no more. But though Mithrelas was of the Lesser Silvan race and not of the High Elves or the Grey, it was ever held that the house and kin of the lords of Dol Amroth was noble by blood, as they were fair in face and mind.
- [93:55]
James
Now, we skipped a sizable chunk to start, and it's the second account of the founding of Etherlond. This comes from what Christopher calls here an unfinished scrap on the origin of the name Belfalas. But we know it better as coming from the rivers and beacon hills of Gondor, as found in the nature of Middle Earth.
- [94:14]
Alan
And Christopher explains that the reason his father is gave for the name having Sinder in origin was because there was one small but important element in Gondor of quite exceptional kind, an Elderan settlement. And while Christopher does a fantastic job of explaining things in Unfinished Tales, we want to go ahead and quote the full version found in Rivers and Beacon Hills, because that's what we do here. So little is known of its history until shortly before it disappeared. For the Eldrin Elves, whether exiled Noldor or longrooted Sindar, remained in Beleriand until its desolation in the Great War against Morgoth. And then, if they did not take sail oversea, wandered eastward in Eriador, there, especially near the Hithaiglir, on either side, they found scattered settlements of the Nandor Teleran Elves, who had, in the First Age, never completed the journey to the shores of the sea. But both sides recognized their kinship as Eldar.
- [95:14]
James
It sounds familiar. Did they find Lorien?
- [95:17]
Alan
I think so.
- [95:18]
James
I mean, quite possibly.
- [95:19]
Alan
The description of scattered settlements of the Nandor on either side of the Hithyglir.
- [95:26]
James
Yeah, sounds like it to me. It sure sounds like it. But back to the founding of Etherland, Tolkien writes, there appears, however, in the beginning of the Second Age to have been a group of Sindar who went south. They were a remnant, it seems, of the people of Doriath, who harbored still their grudge against the Noldor and left the Grey Havens because these and all the ships there were commanded by Cirdan and Noldo. Can you imagine having a problem with Cirjan?
- [95:57]
Alan
Seriously? But. Well, maybe because he's an Oldo in this version.
- [96:01]
James
Yeah, yeah.
- [96:01]
Alan
Because, like, what, they threw me for a loop.
- [96:03]
James
Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We will discuss that more because that is. That's the shocker that you. You had preempted.
- [96:10]
Alan
That was the thing I was teasing earlier.
- [96:11]
James
Yeah, yeah. But Tolkien continues, having learned the craft of shipbuilding, they went in the course of years seeking a place for havens of their own. At last they settled at the mouth of the Morthond. There was already a primitive harbour there of fisher folk, but these, in fear of the Eldar, fled into the mountains.
- [96:31]
Alan
Ooh, connection to Tal Omar, maybe? Or to the people that preceded the people of the hills of Agar, the primitive harbor there of fisherfolk at the mouth of the Morthond. That's interesting. That certainly plays into some of the things that we talked about in those four episodes. It does, but Christopher explains that this whole manuscript ends just mid sentence, like Tolkien's, just like, ah, forget it. And he thinks it's quite possibly because of the assertion that Ciridan was annulled, which Christopher says is very strange, explaining that this runs clean counter to the entire tradition concerning him. Yet it is essential to the idea sketched in this passage. Possibly it was his realization of this that led my father to abandon it in mid sentence.
- [97:21]
James
Yeah, I mean, if you mess with Kira. Not abandon, whatever.
- [97:24]
Alan
Yeah, man, there's too much I got to do if I'm going to make Kiran Onoldo. That does not work at all. But, yeah, I mean, it's an interesting idea, this idea that, you know, some. Some Sindar unhappy with the leadership at the Gray Havens. They could just say that they didn't like being at the Grey Havens because they were all under the command of Gil Galad. I mean, at least he's a Noldo, but. But Cirdan, you know, I don't know. It's an interesting idea, certainly. I can see some. Some Gray elves saying, I'm out let's go somewhere else and build our own. And they go a long way, too. I mean, if we're talking about the beginning of the Second Age, you're talking about going all the way from Mythlon, from the Grey Havens, all the way down to Etherland. Interesting idea, though.
- [98:12]
James
Yeah. Picking up where we did read in what Christopher says is a Note written in December 1972. Turns out it's found in the last writings, but it wasn't included in that portion of the peoples of Middle Earth. No.
- [98:25]
Alan
Instead, you can find it in the nature of Middle Earth in a chapter simply and boldly titled Beards.
- [98:33]
James
Sounds like the biography of ZZ Top.
- [98:36]
Alan
Oh, it does, doesn't it? I would.
- [98:38]
James
That's what you would call the biography of ZZ Top, it wouldn't you?
- [98:42]
Alan
Beards, beards and guitars.
- [98:44]
James
Well, because the one person that didn't have a beard in ZZ Top, his surname was Beard.
- [98:50]
Alan
Yeah.
- [98:50]
James
So they are technically all beards.
- [98:52]
Alan
They are all beards. That's fair. You might not even know James, because you're not involved in the titling process. Did you know that we were going to name. I was going to try to name all of the Tal Omar episodes after ZZ Top songs, but I couldn't. I just couldn't find four that I did not know.
- [99:07]
James
Yeah, I did not.
- [99:08]
Alan
I ended up having to go with a totally different direction of that anyway. So, yeah, it's just a chapter titled Beards. Here in the Text of Unfinished Tales, Christopher sums it up by explaining how the Elvish strain in men is noticeable in the beardlessness of those who are so descended. So there goes my Elvish descent.
- [99:27]
James
And mine. We're just going for the Cirdan look.
- [99:29]
Alan
That's.
- [99:31]
James
Again, we're not just here for the shortened version. Let's go to the Beards chapter for more. Tolkien writes that characters like Aragorn, Denethor, Imrahil, Boromir and Faramir are beardless. Take note. Not because they shave, but because of that Elvish strain, even if it's weak.
- [99:50]
Alan
That's right. And he explains further. I love this explanation. Any element of an Elvish strain in human ancestry was very dominant and lasting, receding only slowly, as might be seen in Numenoreans of royal descent in the matter of longevity. Also, the tribes of men from whom the Numenoreans were descended were normal, and hence the majority of them would have beards. But the royal house was half Elven, having two strains of Elvish race in their ancestry through Luthien of Doriath Royal Sindarin, and Idril of Gondolin, Royal Noldorin. The effects were long lasting, for example, in a tendency to a stature a little above the average, to a greater, though steadily decreasing longevity, and probably most lastingly, in beardlessness. Thus, none of the Numenorean chieftains of descent from Elros, whether kings or not, would be bearded. So I'm not going to be able to claim the throne, clearly.
- [100:55]
James
Pharazon. Pharazon.
- [100:58]
Alan
Pharazon. Pharazo. Oh, man. Season three is gonna be fun in one way at least. We gotta. Yes. Either it's gonna end up being great and we'll sort of, you know, gladly, humbly eat humble pie, which is. You can't eat humble. There you go. Well, no, that's gross. I don't.
- [101:22]
James
I can't.
- [101:23]
Alan
I will not concede to that, you know, or we'll just get to laugh and say things like.
- [101:30]
James
Exactly. Anyway, the explanation for Imrahil and his beard is different.
- [101:37]
Alan
Or his lack of beard.
- [101:38]
James
Yeah, yeah. Is what brings us back to the text. We read here in Unfinished Tales, that the legend of Imrahil's line, the line of the princes of Dol Amroth, was that an ancestor had married an elf maiden. That gets expanded in a note that Christopher says is an unpublished genealogy of the line of Dal Amroth. And we're here to tell you that's in the line of Dol Amroth. It's a creatively named. Found in the heirs of Elendil in the peoples of Middle Earth.
- [102:09]
Alan
I love finding those things out because Christopher does, as you pointed out earlier, often mention this unpublished. Whatever, or in this late philological essay or in this note. And 90% of the time you can find it in one of the volumes of history, Middle Earth. So it's that legend that we read about here, and it's the one you're likely familiar with. I feel like this is one of those unfinished tales stories that has gotten around. Like people know about Imrazor, People know about the line of the princess of Dol Amroth because of the relationship between Imrazor and Mithrelas. She was allegedly one of Nimrodel's companions when they all wandered off somewhere near the source of the river Gilrain.
- [102:47]
James
And that though she wed Imrazur and had a son and daughter with him, she left.
- [102:53]
Alan
Yeah, that seems. I don't know. I want to linger on this a little bit because two things come to mind, either. And two alternate things I should say. Either this is very unelflike and she just up and leaves her children, which seems really, really strange. Or Imirzoar isn't a great guy and I'm getting shades of ale and out of that. And this time she. I mean, I don't want to think that. I don't want to think that the line of the Princess of Dol Amroth descend from a guy who took her to wife. Sort of like, you know, awful, awful line. It is not said that she was wholly unwilling.
- [103:38]
James
Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah.
- [103:40]
Alan
I don't want this to be that.
- [103:42]
James
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [103:43]
Alan
But what else do you say? Why would she have left?
- [103:46]
James
I don't know.
- [103:47]
Alan
That seems so very antithetical to Elves and Elven family and.
- [103:53]
James
Yeah, it is.
- [103:54]
Alan
There could be a thousand different reasons. I know I kind of drew the two almost opposite ends of things. Like the worst case scenario is that dimmers or was. Was a terrible person but I have no idea what would have driven her to leave.
- [104:08]
James
Yeah.
- [104:09]
Alan
I also thought it was interesting that in the. In part of the legend that in. According to some it was actually Nimrodel herself. Yeah, well, almost hear the professor snickering at that one.
- [104:21]
James
The whole thing is framed as in, you know, basically in their own traditions.
- [104:25]
Alan
Yeah, yeah.
- [104:26]
James
And. And it. Yeah. It reminds me again of like the Dwarves in their tradition got. Got the ring from.
- [104:32]
Alan
Got the ring from Celebr himself. Sauron. We don't know that guy. He never came by. Yeah.
- [104:37]
James
It's interesting to think about how much
- [104:38]
Alan
of this is historically.
- [104:41]
James
Yeah.
- [104:42]
Alan
True.
- [104:43]
James
Is somewhat exaggerated or something.
- [104:45]
Alan
Well, there's got to be some connection because of the beardlessness. Unless it's all like just for show. They all have to shave and you
- [104:52]
James
know, and it's not just internal because Legolas.
- [104:54]
Alan
Oh yeah. Legolas sees it.
- [104:55]
James
Sees it. And Imrahil's kind of like. Yeah, it's in our own tradition. The same things are said. Yeah.
- [105:03]
Alan
He's one of my favorite characters. I love him because first of all he's significantly older at the Battle of the Planar Fields than you'd think. I don't think he's quite as old as Aragorn, but he's. He's like in his 60s or something. I think maybe late 50s. So he's.
- [105:18]
James
So you can relate.
- [105:19]
Alan
He. Oh, wow. Yeah, the brutal. But yeah, he's. He's an older guy. He's not just a young fighter who's really good. But he and Eomer and Aragorn are all described as unscathed. You know, like. Like nobody wanted to approach them in battle. So he's on that level with those two guys as being a terrifying presence on the battlefield.
- [105:43]
James
Yeah.
- [105:43]
Alan
And yet he's also this really good guy. Like, you look at the advice he gives and his conversations with Aragorn. I mean, this is a guy who, if Aragorn doesn't come to the kingship and Gondor stays a stewardship, he's still got a lot of power in Gondor. I mean, he's not going to be the king, but the princes of Dol Amroth have never been the highest ranking nobility. And he's got a lot to lose, in a way. But anyway, I'm digressing on Emerhill just because I love that guy. But it is interesting to think about what aspects of this legend are true, what aspects of the legend are exaggerated. When did she leave? Did she leave near the end of her life? And it was more like, I'm just gonna go sail west now. Like, that's different. That's a whole different moment. Yeah, I agree. I mean, the children she left might not have been young children when she left, which that would be the part that would be antithetical. But if they were older, you know, there'd be nothing wrong with. If they're full grown. Nothing wrong with her deciding it's time to sail across the sea.
- [106:46]
James
Right.
- [106:46]
Alan
The fact that she did that while he was still alive, though, is a little weird.
- [106:49]
James
Yeah, it is. It is strange.
- [106:51]
Alan
It just doesn't. It doesn't fit with what we know of Elvish marriage. But like you said, it's all from within the legends of their own traditions. Yeah, their own traditions, yeah.
- [107:02]
James
Yeah.
- [107:02]
Alan
That's interesting. Can you imagine, though, if it was actually supposedly Nimmerdale, like some elements of the legend, say. Give me a break. She didn't want to marry Amroth.
- [107:11]
James
Yeah, exactly.
- [107:12]
Alan
Until he convinced her otherwise.
- [107:16]
James
Well, she.
- [107:16]
Alan
None of these guys speak Sylvan, so good luck.
- [107:20]
James
Well, it's funny, like, she didn't want to marry up because of the sort of colonizing aspects of it. But then, you know, presumably she wouldn't exactly want to marry down.
- [107:32]
Alan
Exactly. Interesting.
- [107:35]
James
But even though she is just a Silvan elf. Right. She's not Sindar, and certainly not of the Noldor. The racial character, the Elvish racial characteristics from her descent through all of the Lords of Dolan.
- [107:47]
Alan
And that even includes the longevity, too. I mean, when you think about Imrahil being, you know, able to go out to battle in his 60s, I think I gotta look it up. I Think he might be older than Denethor at the time of the battle?
- [108:01]
James
Which raises a question. Let me just throw this out there. Is there any. I don't think this would have come up in the Council of Elrond that whether Imrahil had any. You can speculate, though, whether Imrahil would have had any role to play in the hunt for Gollum and whether they could sneak in a cameo or something in the hunt for Golem.
- [108:24]
Alan
Hunt for Gollum doesn't take place anywhere in that part of geographically.
- [108:28]
James
No, but he's around.
- [108:30]
Alan
Yeah, that's true. That's true. Let's see. So in 3019, when the battle would have taken place, he would have been 64. Actually, he was born in 2955.
- [108:44]
James
Okay, so only slightly older than you.
- [108:47]
Alan
Wow, man, that. We just keep on. The hits just keep on coming, folks. The hits just keep on coming. And no, he was not older than Denethor. My apologies there. He's actually 25 years younger.
- [109:00]
James
Okay, so Denethor.
- [109:02]
Alan
Yeah, interesting. Oh, that makes sense, of course, because it was Imrahil's sister, Funduilas, that was Denethor's wife. Oh. Oh, yes, I'd almost forgotten about that. Yeah.
- [109:13]
James
Yeah.
- [109:14]
Alan
So, yeah, they were. They were siblings, so fun stuff and always nice to have a little digression on. On Imrahil. Now, in the tradition of his house, barloman was the 20th and unbroken descent from Barnabas, First Lord of the Prancing Pony James. And no elf maidens were involved in this at all. What does Barlaman have in his bag for us today?
- [109:34]
James
So we've got a really interesting question relating to Lothlorien and I think more specifically, Kara Scalavan, Amy from Louisiana, writes, in the Peter Jackson films, Lothlorien is very blue. And Amy asks, is it actually described that way in the books as blue,
- [109:53]
Alan
as having that sort of color filter applied to it?
- [109:57]
James
Yeah. And I think specifically we should talk about Carath Galavon, because that's the part. It's really only once they're within Garrus Galavant that it's that it has that incredibly blue look in the Jackson films.
- [110:08]
Alan
And that's just a colour grading choice.
- [110:10]
James
Yeah, it's a colour grading choice, but sometimes gets reflected in artwork as well. But I don't think there's any. I took a brief look. I don't think there's any indication at all.
- [110:22]
Alan
If anything, it'd be the opposite. I would imagine it to feel warmer and have more.
- [110:27]
James
This is the interesting thing. So Lothlorien itself is always described as golden. It's very, very. I mean, they make the point that the leaves don't fall because they just turn golden and then they fall later.
- [110:41]
Alan
But.
- [110:41]
James
Yeah, and then they fall later in the spring.
- [110:44]
Alan
Right. When they're then replaced by the green
- [110:46]
James
leaves with the green. So.
- [110:47]
Alan
But even Kataskaladan is described that way. Right. I mean, I'm looking here at their approach to that. And we read that upon the further side, talking about sort of a little foss on the other side of this. There rose to a great height a green wall encircling a green hill, thronged with mallorn trees taller than any they had yet seen in all the land. Their height could not be guessed, but they stood up in the twilight like living towers in their many tiered branches. And amid their ever moving leaves, countless lights were gleaming green and gold and silver.
- [111:21]
James
Okay, so the light. Okay, that's a really crucial part because you could argue maybe the lights were blue, but no, the lights were green and gold, gold and silver and silver.
- [111:33]
Alan
And I just don't.
- [111:34]
James
Yeah. I wonder what led to.
- [111:36]
Alan
And the cities described by the way, ever climbing up like a green cloud upon their left. And when the night deepened, light sprang forth until all the hills seemed to fire with stars.
- [111:46]
James
Are they trying to just capture that? I'm just trying to think what sort of. Was the creative choice to make it seem quite so blue?
- [111:56]
Alan
Maybe a little bit of that remoteness that we're supposed to feel with the elves. That sort of almost aloof cold.
- [112:03]
James
Yeah.
- [112:04]
Alan
Whereas we associate warmth with home and cozy and safe. And this place is not quite safe.
- [112:11]
James
Right, right.
- [112:11]
Alan
I mean, I can see that being the. There is a lot of silver described. And silver is a cool light, not a blue light, but it is a cool light. I mean, we. We read about the fountain shimmering that was lit by silver lamps that swung from the boughs of trees. It fell into a basin of silver. But nothing about anything that's. That's blue or even cool in tone. Just the idea of maybe the silver lights alone. The chamber where they get up there onto that. That wide talon filled with a soft light. Its walls were green and silver and its roof of gold.
- [112:48]
James
Yeah, yeah.
- [112:48]
Alan
So it actually had a roof. It just didn't have walls. And it's interesting. Yeah. Nothing here about the light being, you know, cool or blue or anything like that.
- [112:59]
James
Yeah. And it's funny because it's one of those things that I think so many of us are influenced by.
- [113:05]
Alan
Oh, yeah.
- [113:06]
James
By the images in the films that they. We would imagine them as blue. The funny thing is I was looking at like, if you look at Alan Lee's artwork that would have inspired it. It's not particularly blue.
- [113:22]
Alan
It's not particularly cool tone. No, no.
- [113:24]
James
And Tolkien did do his own. Well, Lost Lorien as a whole, Tolkien portrayed. And very, very, very, very golden.
- [113:31]
Alan
Very golden. And he didn't do Kataskaladan specifically. But yeah, in my mind it is very much a warm colored place, even if it's cool when they get there because of the time of year. Yeah, it's not. That is one of those things that I've not. Was. Was not a fan of in terms of the color grading choice. But I know there were also some issues and this is just getting into sort of the editing choices and things, but when they released the 4k edition, they changed some of the color grading in Fellowship. I haven't compared the Lothlorien scene to the previous DVD version to see if there's maybe a change in that, but it could be that something was done later.
- [114:18]
James
Yeah, I don't know.
- [114:20]
Alan
It is interesting. You're right, though. There are a lot of things that are in my mind as I read the text replaced or sort of enhanced by what I've seen in the films. Certainly art design in a lot of places. Characters too. I mean, it's very hard for me to picture some of them. It's interesting. I can picture other. Other versions, but certainly none of the nine members of the Fellowship. In my mind, it's very hard to think of them as anything other than the actors casted.
- [114:52]
James
I mean, easy to imagine Emmerhill because he wasn't in the.
- [114:54]
Alan
Yeah, yeah. I can imagine Emmerhill totally differently because he's not in there.
- [114:58]
James
Tom Bombado,
- [115:02]
Alan
Baragons. Yeah, you know some of the guys in the Urkenbrand. Good old Urkenbrand, you know, very important character. Glorfindel. So, yeah, good stuff. All right, folks, well, thank you for joining us for another episode of the Prancing Pony podcast. Please join us again next week when we've had one lsr. Yes, but what about second lsr?
- [115:25]
James
I don't think they know about second lsr. Pip. Alan and I want to thank the members of Team PPP editor Jordan Reynnels Barlamin Becker Davis, social media manager manager Casey Hilsey, event and Patreon community coordinator Katie McKenna, graphic artist Megan Collins, video editor Yonatan Lazens and website guru Phil Dane.
- [115:45]
Alan
Please take a minute to check out the prancingponypodcast.com that's where you'll find show notes, outtakes, Prancing Pony ponderings, and our fully revamped PPP Merch store where you can get all sorts of cool PPP merch based on all the incredible chapter art that Megan's been doing for us for three and a half seasons.
- [116:02]
James
Now we're all about the books here at the Prancing Pony Podcast, so be sure to also visit our library page. We try to make sure that any book we've mentioned on the show is linked there for you to purchase. We do get a small amount of compensation when you do make your purchase, so thank you for that.
- [116:16]
Alan
Indeed. We also want to thank our patrons at the Kir Dan's Contribution tier. I'll start with Demay in Alaska, Chad in Texas, Lance in New Jersey, Joseph in Michigan, Kathy Franklin, North Carolina, Brian in the uk, Jerry from Washington, Irwin from the Netherlands, Ben in Minnesota, Anthony in Texas, Zaksu in Illinois, Joshua in Massachusetts, Lucy in Texas, Erica in Texas, James in Massachusetts, and Ann in Kentucky.
- [116:42]
James
There's also Sean in New Jersey, Mason in California, Maureen from Massachusetts, Olivia in London, Robert in Arizona, Nick in Wisconsin, Lewis in South Carolina, Thomas in Germany, Craig in California, Kevin in Massachusetts, Joe in Maryland, Dee Scott in California, Jeffrey in Michigan, Paul in Colorado, David from Connecticut, and Teresa from Texas. Thank you all so very much for your support indeed.
- [117:10]
Alan
Thank you.
- [117:11]
James
Make sure you don't miss any episodes of the Prancing Pony Podcast. Subscribe now through Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or your your favorite podcast app.
- [117:19]
Alan
And one last thing. As always, don't forget to send your thoughts, comments, and most of all, the name of a good Elvish family attorney to barliman@theprancingponypodcast.com Baliman does have a lot
- [117:30]
James
of mail to sort through though, so we'll try to get to you just as soon as we're able.
- [117:34]
Alan
As always, though, this has been far too short a time to spend among such excellent and admirable listeners.
- [117:39]
James
But until next time, may you rekindle hearts in a world that grows chill.
- [118:05]
Alan
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- [118:16]
James
You've got Strawberry Dreams, Blue Hawaiian Sunrise,
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Alan
and Vice Guava, and they all bring the Monster Energy punch.
- [118:23]
James
So if you've been living in the
- [118:24]
Alan
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- [118:49]
Alan
And breathe.
- [118:51]
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