406 – The Longest Time

Summary

The Prancing Pony Podcast: Episode 406 – "The Longest Time" (March 29, 2026)

Episode Overview In this in-depth chapter of their ongoing exploration of Tolkien’s legendarium, hosts Alan Sisto and James Tauber delve into the tangled histories of the Elessar—the Elfstone—focusing on multiple variant tales of its origins, powers, and its journey to Aragorn. The episode highlights the labyrinthine nature of Tolkien’s world-building, the shifting backgrounds of characters like Galadriel and Celebrimbor, and offers a linguistic and historical deep-dive into the Sylvan Elves. As always, the hosts deliver erudition with warmth, wit, and the approachable spirit that makes the Prancing Pony feel like a favorite pub.

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Main Discussion Points

1. Introduction & Setting the Stage (01:11 – 02:31)

• The hosts set out to discuss the convoluted traditions behind the Elessar and its link to Galadriel and Celeborn, noting this is part of a six-episode history arc.
• James sets a welcoming tone:
  “No matter whether you came to Middle Earth through the books, the films, the TV show, or something else, each of you is welcome here in our common room.” (01:58)

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2. Reading Tolkien’s “History of the Elessar” – First Version (02:31 – 07:20)

• Sean reads an extensive passage from Tolkien’s notes (as published/edited by Christopher Tolkien) detailing the making of the original Elessar by the jewel-smith Enerthil of Gondolin, its passage to Idril, then to Earendil, and its powers of healing and restoration.
• The episode explores the idea that looking through the Elessar lets one see things “as they were in the grace of their youth” and bestows healing.
• Debate revolves around whether the Elessar that ends up in Galadriel’s hands is the original returned by the Valar or a second, newly created gem.

“...those who looked through this stone saw things that were withered or burned healed again, or as they were in the grace of their youth, and that the hands of one who held it brought to all that they touched, healing from hurt…” (03:55, Tolkien’s words via Sean)

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3. Digression: The Fate of Enerthil and Tolkien’s Shifting Canon (08:06 – 09:36)

• Discussion of Enerthil, the one-off jewel-smith, and how often Tolkien would “retcon” his own lore, with Enerthil being supplanted in later versions by Celebrimbor as the Elessar’s maker.

“Tolkien must have changed his mind.” (08:30, James)

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4. Parallels with the Silmarils & Elvish Mindset (08:43 – 11:22)

• Comparison between Enerthil’s and Fëanor’s crafts: both try to “capture and preserve” beauty.
• James: “It’s certainly the mindset of the Noldor, right? To appreciate the beauty, but then want to somehow capture it, preserve it.” (09:14)
• The hosts reflect on elvish memory, pondering if elves can remember infancy, and the melancholy of being immortal in a fading world.

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5. Variant Tales: How Did Galadriel Receive the Elessar? (14:13 – 24:05)

A. The First Version (the “Returned Elessar”)

• Olorin (Gandalf) brings the Elessar, possibly the original, from the West and gives it to Galadriel as a token from Yavanna.
• There’s a mix of banishment, longing, and hope.
• The language shifts: Galadriel is “not yet permitted” to depart Middle-earth, implying the Ban, versus “unwilling,” showing Tolkien’s vacillation on the point.

“Yet for a little while that might be amended, if the Elessar should return for a little, until the days of men are come…” (21:00, Tolkien’s words via Sean)

• Gandalf’s gift is temporary; Galadriel must eventually pass the stone to another (Aragorn), confirming her eventual return to the West.

B. The Second Version (the “Celebrimbor Elessar”) (28:38 – 41:13)

• In this alternative, Galadriel receives the Elessar in the Second Age from Celebrimbor, who crafts it out of unrequited love for her.
• Celebrimbor’s background is fluid—sometimes a Feanorian, sometimes a smith of Gondolin—but here he’s a talented friend/rival of Enerthil.
• The new Elessar is brighter and subtler than the first, but less powerful, as “the sun was not so bright” after the First Age due to Morgoth’s lingering shadow.
• Upon acquiring the Three Elven Rings, Galadriel later gifts the Elessar to her daughter Celebrian, and thus it passes to Arwen and—eventually—Aragorn.

“But you know that I love you, though you turn to Celeborn of the trees. And for that love I will do what I can…” (38:03, Celebrimbor via James/Sean, 37:40)

• The awkward Celebrimbor-Galadriel-Celeborn possible “love triangle” is explored with much humor and fan punditry.

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6. Editorial Unravelings: Christopher Tolkien’s Commentary (47:00 – 55:04)

• Christopher Tolkien’s editorial notes are highlighted, tracing how Tolkien’s narrative plans continually shifted post-Lord of the Rings.
• Discussion of the inconsistent presence of Celebrimbor, the “ban” on Galadriel, the movement and speech of the Sylvan Elves, and the merging of Sindar and Silvan realms.
• The hosts acknowledge that many of these notes are contradictory by Tolkien’s own hand and reflect his lifelong pattern of deep, iterative revision.

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7. Appendix A: The Sylvan Elves—Language, Culture, and History (61:42 – 79:46)

• The hosts examine a late Tolkien note detailing the Sylvan Elves (“Tawarwaith”)—descendants of the Teleri who didn’t cross the Misty Mountains.
• The Sylvan tongue is described as further from Sindarin than the Sindar are from the Teleri of Valinor, with ancient roots and forms.
• Discussion of “linguistic substrate:” Sindarin became the dominant language, but regional accents and local words remained (e.g., Amroth, Nimrodel, Caras).
• Fun linguistic tangent on borrowed words, phonological shifts, and the difference accent makes—even referencing Frodo’s confusion in Lothlorien.
• Notable: The Sylvan Elves had no native script; when they did write, they adopted foreign forms—potentially expediting the loss of their language.

“Tolkien then feigns ignorance of the details. He says that it's not, of course, now known, even though he's the person making this up.” (71:43, James)

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8. Appendix B: The Realm of Thranduil, Sylvan/Sindarin Relations, and Aftermath of the Last Alliance (81:24 – 99:10)

• Traces the eastward migration of Sindar, including Oropher and Thranduil, who deliberately merge with their Silvan subjects—adopting language and customs.
• Tensions with Dwarves and even Galadriel/Celeborn push Oropher’s folk ever more “rustic,” seeking to return to a “simple life natural to the Elves before the invitation of the Valar.”
• The disastrous impact of the Last Alliance on Silvan Elves: huge casualties (up to two-thirds), shaping their insularity and anxiety in later ages.
• Reflection on the contradiction between Sindar-adopting Silvan speech and Tolkien’s later notes suggesting Silvan Elvish was no longer spoken by the end of the Third Age.

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9. Listener Mail & Notable Lore: The Elven King of The Hobbit as "Thingol" (100:04 – 106:15)

• Responding to a question, the hosts demonstrate (using textual and publication history evidence) that the “Elvenking” in The Hobbit is deliberately modeled on Thingol of Doriath—both in physical setting (cave palace with a river and bridge) and in narrative (the dispute over payment with the dwarves).
• They cite Tolkien’s own explanation to Christopher Bretherton (Letter 257) and John Rateliff’s History of the Hobbit, showing that the Elvenking and Thingol were functionally the same figure before Tolkien decided to distinguish them.

“...he left his options open as to whether the Elven King was a new character or an old familiar character appearing in a new story, slightly altered to fit his new surroundings.” (104:45, quoted from Rateliff)

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Highlights & Memorable Quotes

• On Tolkien’s shifting lore:
  “What was it, Thursday? You know, it’s different today.” (33:59, Sean)
• On Celebrimbor’s unrequited love:
  “Wait a minute. Back the truck up.” (37:40, Sean)
• On linguistic changes:
  “So not much change over the course of a thousand years in an Elvish language.” (79:46, Sean)
• On Dwarves and Galadriel being "bad neighbors":
  “[Oropher’s] kind of hard to please...one of these grumpy neighbors who lives down a two mile driveway and has the 1700 no trespassing signs...” (87:56, Sean)

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Key Timestamps for Reference

• 01:11 – Show/episode introduction
• 02:31 – Begin main reading on the Elessar
• 07:20 – Editorial context & Christopher Tolkien’s introduction
• 14:13 – Which Elessar? Variant traditions
• 28:38 – “Second Elessar” story with Celebrimbor
• 47:00 – Christopher Tolkien’s commentary on the texts and their contradictions
• 61:42 – Appendix A: The Silvan Elves (origins and language)
• 81:24 – Appendix B: History of Thranduil’s realm and the cultural mix
• 100:04 – Listener Mail: The Hobbit’s Elvenking as Thingol
• 106:18 – Sign-off & Patreon/member acknowledgments

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Tone, Approach, and Style

• Informal yet deeply informed—scholarly but full of warmth, self-irony, jovial ribbing, and genuine wonder at Tolkien’s universe.
• “We’re just a couple of friends chatting at the pub, and we’re glad you’ve joined us.” (02:24, James)
• Frequent asides, puns, and Tolkienian digressions: elves in cradles, elvish parents' “years of teething,” and pop-culture references.
• Honest engagement with the contradictions, dead-ends, and circularities of Tolkien’s late writings, always emphasizing that the lack of finality is part of the fun.

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Conclusion

Alan and James take the audience on a thorough and entertaining tour through the winding roads of Tolkien’s post-Lord of the Rings mythological notes, focusing on the Elessar as a nexus for questions of loss, memory, pride, and the unresolvable “long defeat” of the Eldar. They illustrate how Tolkien’s legendarium is as much a tapestry of revisions as it is a set of fixed tales, and that the inconsistencies themselves reveal a deeper, lived reality to his imagined world.

Listeners leave the episode with a greater appreciation for the intricacies and ambiguities in Tolkien’s sub-creation, the richness of elvish linguistic and cultural evolution, and—perhaps most of all—the enduring, pub-friendly camaraderie of the podcast itself.

Transcript

[Sean]

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[James]

Well, that's cool.

[Sean]

No, you don't understand. It went perfectly. Real offer down to the penny. They're picking it up tomorrow. Nothing went wrong. So what's the problem? That is the problem. Nothing in my life goes as smoothly. I'm waiting for the catch. Maybe there's no catch. That's exactly what a catch would want me to think.

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[Sean]

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[Sean]

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[Sean]

Good evening, little masters, and welcome to episode 406 of the Prancing Pony podcast. Where of this podcast two things are

[James]

said though which is true only those wise could say, who now are gone. Folks, pull up a bench in the common room and join us. I'm James Tauber, the sage of the south, and I'm here with a man of the west who laments that all things must then fade and perish forever. Alan Sisto.

[Sean]

Have a shiny green gem I could borrow? Might help these gray hairs from multiplying or at least from falling out. Something like that. Folks, join us as Celebrimbor gets Friend Zoned. Maybe as we near the end of our six part look at the history of Galadriel and Celeborn.

[James]

I guess Friend Zone is better than Unfriend.

[Sean]

Well, Friendzone is better than poke through with arrows, but yeah, true.

[James]

Folks, no matter whether you came to Middle Earth through the books, the films, the TV show, or something else, each of you is welcome here in our common room. The Prancing Pony Podcast continues in our 10th season of Reading and talking our way through Middle Earth with conversations, digressions and even speculations.

[Sean]

Not to mention a few puns and bad jokes. Here and there, but our purpose is to dive deep into the lore, discuss the story, talk about our favorite characters and themes, Tolkien's inspirations, and a whole lot more.

[James]

And while we take the work seriously, the same can't be said about ourselves. We're just a couple of friends chatting at the pub, and we're glad you've joined us.

[Sean]

I'm sure you'll be glad you joined as well. Now, we're pretty sure we have a long episode today, so we're going to go ahead and pass over our intro segment and get right to it. There was in Gondolin a jewel smith named Enerthil, the greatest of that craft among the Noldor. After the death of Feanor, Enerthil loved all green things that grew, and his greatest joy was to see the sunlight through the leaves of trees, and it came into his heart to make a jewel within which the clear light of the sun should be imprisoned. But the jewel should be green as leaves, and he made this thing, and even the Noldor marveled at it. For it is said that those who looked through this stone saw things that were withered or burned healed again, or as they were in the grace of their youth, and that the hands of one who held it brought to all that they touched, healing from hurt. This gem Enervil gave to Idril, the king's daughter, and she wore it upon her breast, and so it was saved from the burning of Gondolin. And before Idril set sail, she said to Earendil, her son, the Elessar I leave with thee, for there are grievous hurts to Middle Earth, which thou maybe shalt heal, but to none other shalt thou deliver it. And indeed at Sirion's haven there were many hurts to heal, both of Men and elves, and of beasts that fled thither from the horror of the north. And while Earendil dwelt there, they were healed and prospered, and all things were for a while green and fair. But when Earendil began his great voyages upon the sea, he wore the Elessar upon his breast, and for amongst all his searchings, the thought was always before him that he might perhaps find Idril again. And his first memory of Middle Earth was the green stone above her breast, as she sang above his cradle while Gondolin was still in flower. So it was that the Elessar passed away, when Earendil returned no more to Middle Earth, in ages after, there was again an Elessar. And of this two things are said, though which is true only Those wise could say, who now are gone, for some say that the second was indeed only the first, returned by the grace of the Valar, and that Olorin, who was known in Middle Earth as Mithrandir, brought it with him out of the west. And on a time Oloran came to Galadriel, who dwelt now under the trees of Greenwood the Great, and they had long speech together. For the years of her exile began to lie heavy on the lady of the Noldor, and she longed for news of her kin and for the blessed land of her birth, and yet was unwilling to forsake Middle Earth. Christopher interjects here with a note in brackets, saying that this sentence was changed to read but was not permitted yet to forsake Middle Earth. And then the professor's words continue, and when Oloren had told her many tidings, she sighed and said, I grieve in Middle Earth, for leaves fall and flowers fade, and my heart yearns remembering trees and grass that do not die. I would have these in my home. Then Oloren said, would you then have the Elessar? And Galadriel said, where now is the Stone of Earendil? And Enerdil is gone. Who made it? Who knows? Said Oloren. Surely, said Galadriel, they have passed over sea as almost all fair things beside. And must Middle Earth then fade and perish forever? That is its fate, said Aloran. Yet for a little while that might be amended, if the Elessar should return for a little, until the days of men are come? If. And yet, how could that be? Said Galadriel? For surely the Valar are now removed, and Middle Earth is far from their thought, and all who cling to it are under a shadow. It is not so, said Oloren. Their eyes are not dimmed nor their hearts hardened, in token of which, look upon this. And he held before her the Elessar, and she looked on it and wondered, and Oloren said, this I bring to you from Yavanna. Use it as you may, and for a while you shall make the land of your dwelling the fairest place in Middle Earth. But it is not for you to possess. You shall hand it on when the time comes, for before you grow weary and at last forsake Middle Earth, one shall come who is to receive it, and his name shall be that of the stone Elessar he shall be called

[James]

so we skip Christopher's editorial introduction here, where he explains that there's not much else about Galadriel and Celeborn in the unpublished notes and manuscript. Except, well, except for this four page rough manuscript which he says is still in the first stage of composition.

[Sean]

Okay, first stage. So early writing. It does bear a few penciled emendations, he says, but there aren't any follow up versions. It's not like with Tal Elmar, where there were, what, a couple manuscripts and even a couple of typescripts. So there was a change that was being made throughout the story. Not here. We just get this very early draft. And along with that intro is an acknowledgement that he's made some very slight editorial tweaks of his own. And then Christopher proceeds to give us the story of the Elessar as his father wrote it. Or wrote them actually, as the case may be, as you see.

[James]

Yeah, indeed. And we start with the first part of the story. Not the first version, but the first half of the story, one in which the Elessar was crafted by Inerthil of Gondolin.

[Sean]

Now, as we'll learn later today, Enerthil appears in no other writing, as Christopher says. So we literally know nothing about him beyond what Tolkien says in this writing. And really one of the only things we know is that he's the greatest Jewel Smith since Feanor, which is saying something.

[James]

Yeah, it is. And it's when you read that you sort of think, why haven't I heard of this guy before? And guess what? You're not going to hear about him again. Tolkien must have changed his mind.

[Sean]

So not appearing in this book.

[James]

Yes, exactly. We do find out that Inerthal is also a big fan of sunlight and green growing things. So he's decided to create a jewel to capture the light of the sun. Similar, I'm sure you've observed, to how Feanor wants to make a jewel that captures the light of the trees.

[Sean]

I thought that was interesting. I mean, it's such a. I think it's the imprisoned word that immediately jumped to my mind as being like the connection, because that's not viewed as a positive. But here it kind of is.

[James]

Yeah. I mean, it's certainly the mindset of the Noldor, Right. To appreciate the beauty, but then want to somehow capture it, preserve it.

[Sean]

Yeah, like. Like a butterfly in one of those things. Put a pin through it, you know?

[James]

Yeah, yeah. And even though this will hold sunlight, he makes the jewel green, representing his love for trees.

[Sean]

And the Noldor, known for their love of craftsmanship, are genuinely impressed with the LSR after. And there they'll makes it. Interestingly, it does have some magical properties or maybe Just Elvish properties, you know, is how you'd put it, depending. Right. Oh, this is what your people call magic, you know?

[James]

Yeah, exactly. And because when you look through it, you see the damaged thing as if it were whole. And it's actually more than just a visual. It actually seems to possess healing properties.

[Sean]

Yeah. So being a good Gondolythrim Enervil gives the Elessar to Idril. And she was wearing it when Gondolin fell. It escaped with her then to the mouths of Sirion, where before she set sail with Tuor, she gave it to Earendil. Along with two guidelines. Right?

[James]

Yeah. So maybe Earendor can use it to heal some of the grievous hurts of Middle Earth, but he isn't supposed to pass it on to anyone else. The Elessar stops here.

[Sean]

That's right. Sure enough, he finds plenty of things to heal. No surprise after the Nirranaith. Men, elves, even animals. And they are all healed. They are even said to have prospered.

[James]

Yeah. We mentioned earlier the parallel with the Silmarils capturing the light of the sun versus the light of the trees. And here's another one with the healing. If we go back to of the voyage of Earendel and the War of Wrath, we read about how the news of the Silmaril being at the Havens reached the remaining sons of Feanor. Then Elwing and the people of Sirion would not yield the jewel which Beren had won and Luthien had worn, and for which Dior the Fair was slain. And least of all, while Earendel, their lord, was on the sea. For it seemed to them that in the Silmaril lay the healing and the blessing that had come upon their houses and their ships.

[Sean]

So, yeah, really, another not so tenuous connection between the Elessar and a Silmaril. It's almost like it's just slightly lesser than a Silmaril. We talk about the light of the sun being like the light of the trees, but lesser. You know, sort of like the next best thing. I mean, even the light of the trees themselves were the next best thing after the globes that had fallen, that Morgoth had knocked down the lamps. So if the trees are the second best thing after the lamps and the sun and moon are the third best thing after the trees, this is just one less step from a Silmaril. It's really interesting. So that only works, though, of course, that healing while Earendil is there because he's following his mom's instructions. When he leaves, he takes the LSR with him. I mean, after all, he is hoping to find Idril along with two or one imagines in his voyages and say, here, Mom, I brought this back.

[James]

Yeah. And interestingly, we learned that Earendel's first childhood memory is his mum wearing the Alyssa as she sang over his cradle.

[Sean]

I got a little weirded out by that. By cradle, I can't remember anything.

[James]

No.

[Sean]

Does anybody have memories of when they were in the cradle? That's.

[James]

No.

[Sean]

No. I mean, it feels like it's not possible. Like maybe you were told a story. Oh, I used to.

[James]

Yeah.

[Sean]

When you're four or five, they're telling you, I remember when you were in your cradle all the time. And I used to. To sing over you. And I was wearing this stone. And so he just conjures that up. Unless elves are different.

[James]

Yeah. Unless it's an elf thing.

[Sean]

Yeah, that's the thing. I mean, could an elf remember those super early childhood, almost infancy moments?

[James]

Yeah.

[Sean]

I don't know.

[James]

I wonder. Which raises the question, how long are elves in cradles for?

[Sean]

Oh, that's a good point.

[James]

I don't know.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[James]

I don't know how fast that part of the aging.

[Sean]

Yeah. Because the aging is variable, isn't it? Depending on where you are in your lifespan, the. The aging is slower. But how much. That's a good question. Can you imagine having to spend five years in the grave?

[James]

Well, if. If you're spending years, you know, gestating, it only seems fair. I don't know.

[Sean]

Now I'm just having nightmares of the idea of a baby elf that needs to be fed in the middle of the night for like three years instead of a few months. Elvish parents are like, no, thank you.

[James]

That's why they have so few.

[Sean]

I was going to say. So when Earendel leaves and ends up in low Earth geosynchronous orbit, the LSR is gone. Actually, it's not geosynchronous orbit.

[James]

No, it's not geosynchronous.

[Sean]

That's kind of the point. But the lsr, of course, is gone with him. So no more on Middle Earth. So the question then is, how is there an LSR later? And that's where we get this first version of the story. It's the portion of the story with two fully independent versions. We're told that though only those wise which are gone could tell us which one of these two is true.

[James]

Yeah. And to be clear, the first part of this story, the Elessar crafted by Inerthill, did happen in the history of Middle Earth. The only question is whether the one we see in Lord of the Rings is the original one or the replacement one that we hear about later. It makes me think of the El and Dilmir here. Except we know a copy was made because they thought the first one was lost. Found it and now we've got Ellen Dilmur. That, that can't happen here, though, can it?

[Sean]

Well, I guess only if it is the replacement and then the original shows back up some crazy reason shouldn't happen.

[James]

I, I, I, I'm pretty sure that doesn't happen. The rest of this reading is telling us the story of how the original Elessar did actually return to Middle Earth. And it said that the Valar allowed or arranged for its return. Presumably a Rendor was, was all right with this?

[Sean]

Like he has a choice. I mean, you're stuck on Vingelot, man. What are you going to do?

[James]

The Valar overrule Mummy's instructions. I don't.

[Sean]

I suppose that means that he would have brought it back with him when he came to middle earth around third age 1000. Then when he came from Valinor to help unite the fight against Sauron. Some point after that. But we're not told exactly when he found his way. And this is an interesting little story tidbit that brings in the Galadriel portion. He doesn't find his way to Lorien like you'd think. He finds his way to Greenwood the Great, which is where Galadriel is said to be dwelling. Now, a lot of the versions of the story that we've looked at so far have her not being in lorien until after third age 1980, right after the Balrog wipes out, you know, the dwarves and the dwarves flee and Nimrodel flees. But in at least one of those versions of the story, that period of time, she's living in the Belfalas region. So where. How was she in Greenwood? I don't know. What do you think? What do you make of this?

[James]

I don't know. I mean, he's, he's clearly even changing his mind in this text, as we'll get to in a moment.

[Sean]

Yeah, that's true. We get some really muddy stuff about the ban, don't we?

[James]

Yeah, exactly. Because Galadriel's years of exile, of weighing on her were told so that, that, you know, the fact it's described as an exile in this version of the story, we're back to having a ban. Although, hold that, hold that. She's hoping Eloran can Give her news of her people and of Valinor. And I'm trying to think, if we get that insight elsewhere, of the elves wondering what's going on.

[Sean]

Right. I wonder what's happening with my people.

[James]

We don't hear that much, I don't think. I'm trying to think of other cases where the elves that are on Middle Earth are wondering, lacking news about what's going on in Valinor.

[Sean]

How many of them, though, were actually born there? You know, I mean, I think that might be the thing with Galadriel is she's born in Valinor, Right.

[James]

Is she the only? I mean, depending on celeborn. Depending on whether you've got.

[Sean]

Depending on Celeborn.

[James]

Celeborn's background. Is she the only.

[Sean]

Yeah, I think. Wait, Gil Galad.

[James]

Oh, Gil Galad, yeah. Oh, well, he's. I mean, not. He's. He's gone now. Yeah, yeah. I'm talking about in. Yeah, in the. In the Third Age.

[Sean]

Very well, possibly so because Elrond and Elros were just babies at the end of the first age, they weren't born in Valinor, they were born in Beleriand.

[James]

Yeah, she might.

[Sean]

She might be the only one still remaining that was born in Valinor.

[James]

Yeah. So you can see why she would.

[Sean]

I mean, maybe Gildor, maybe. We don't know, we're not told. But Gildor could be that old because he's of the House of Finrod. So he could go back to those days.

[James]

True, true.

[Sean]

And Glorfindel, obviously, but certainly the main ones. Yeah, Glorfindel. But he came back, so I don't know if that camera.

[James]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sean]

I don't know. That's a very good question.

[James]

He could bring the news.

[Sean]

He could bring the news.

[James]

But yeah. It's really interesting though that Christopher points out this change that his father made from being unwilling to forsake Middle Earth to not being permitted yet to forsake Middle Earth.

[Sean]

That's so interesting.

[James]

Right.

[Sean]

Like she's under a ban.

[James]

Well, she's not. Yeah, not. Well, the unwilling would be.

[Sean]

Yeah, the unwillingness. She's not under a ban.

[James]

Right. She's just decided to be there then. Not permitted. It brings back the ban. Yeah.

[Sean]

And that definitely ties into years of exile a little better. Which even if it is sort of a self imposed exile, but yeah, yeah.

[James]

Exile seems the wrong word if she's choosing to be there.

[Sean]

But yeah.

[James]

The professor had not made up his mind.

[Sean]

No, he had not. So Gandalf gives her the news. Right. And she's, as you might expect, filled with heartache and longing. Right. This is not the same. I'm here in this place where things die, leaves fall, flowers fade. But she has a memory of places where those things don't happen. Even the trees and the grass, they're undying. And I love the sneaky Gandalf. I mean, he's just always this way, isn't he? He's had the Elessar in his pocket the whole time. Would you like to have the Elessar?

[James]

Exactly. I'm half surprised he didn't, like, get it from behind her ear or something.

[Sean]

Oh, look at what you have in your pocket.

[James]

Who wouldn't like to have the LSR appear?

[Sean]

Would you like a silmaril?

[James]

Well, yes, please. I've got one of those, too. Yeah. But like Galadriel points out, the stone is with Earendel, and its maker is dead. And the rest of the people of Gondolin.

[Sean]

Yeah. It's good to see, though, that Geneva has always been this way. Sort of, like, kind of tricky and not quite being straight. I mean, he doesn't respond clearly. Oh, who knows? Come on, you can be more helpful than that. Gandalf. Throw me a bone.

[James]

Well, this is the guy that turns out to have had Naia the whole time. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Oh, look at that ring on my finger.

[Sean]

He's got it now because Gil Galad. Or, I'm sorry, not Gilgalad, but Kiridan would have given it to him.

[James]

Giving it to him at this point.

[Sean]

Yeah, he showed up, so.

[James]

Wow. Yeah, that's. Actually, that puts some of this in a different context, because she's like, oh, I. You know, if only I could have the Elessa. That would be really handy. I mean, one of the three would be even better, you'd think. But doesn't she have. Hang on a sec. Doesn't she have one?

[Sean]

That's what I'm trying to figure out. Because I was trying to figure out when she gives the Elessar to her daughter, because she had the ring all along, so. But the text says something about when she had the ring. Then she gave it to her daughter. I'm like, but you got the ring a long time ago. We will get to that.

[James]

Yeah.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[James]

Okay. So Galadriel believes both the stone and its maker have passed over the sea, then regrets the fact that in Middle Earth, things fade and die just the way it is. Yep. The Lorien confirms that's the reality of Middle Earth. But if the Alessar were around, we could make things A little better. Until the days of men are come.

[Sean]

Yeah, that idea that the. The days of the elves are fading is sort of the unspoken part of that. I've always kind of connected the idea of the long defeat that Galadriel and Keller have talked about fighting as being this long defeat against evil. Like, we will defeat evil every time it raises its head, but eventually it will triumph. Like, eventually we will lose that fight. We'll keep fighting it. And it's a good fight to have, but this is the way things are. It's a. An imperfect place. But I'm wondering if this until the days of men are come is actually a connection to that long defeat. Like, yeah, doesn't matter if they did defeat evil permanently, they're still going to be unseated as the power.

[James]

Right? Yeah, that's a really good point.

[Sean]

That's just something. You wonder how much thought they give to that. Like, it's not just that we are here to defeat evil, we're also here in a way, maybe slow the advance of men. Can we. Can we keep them from taking over yet? I don't know.

[James]

Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting, this idea that those healing powers. Yes, we could use them for a while, but it's not going to work once the days of men have come. Yeah. So he's talking hypothetically. If the Elessar were around, we could make things a bit better and. Sure, Galadriel says, but we don't have it, and we can't have it. The Valar are with the rest of Amma, no longer even part of the planet.

[Sean]

Yeah, that's right. I mean, they broke it off. You got to take the straight road to get there now. And we who are here are far from their thought and lie under a shadow. This sort of makes me think a little bit of Galadriel's lament. The. The part where she says that Varda has uplifted her hands like clouds, and all paths are drowned in deep shadow. Out of a gray country, darkness lies in the foaming waves between us. Like. Like there's this separation now that's unbreachable. And it's. It's. It's sad, right? I mean, that's why it's. Galadriel is the Met, not Galadriel's happy song.

[James]

Right.

[Sean]

Yeah, but, like, she really does believe the Valar aren't even thinking about us anymore.

[James]

Yeah, but Ganath reminds her that the Valar's eyes aren't dimmed and their hearts aren't hardened towards Middle Earth before we get to the evidence he provides to support this point. I mean, wouldn't his presence alone be

[Sean]

evidence of this kind of thinking that.

[James]

Yeah, he's been sent by the Valar. Exactly. He's been sent. You know, the Astari have been sent to united inspire the free peoples of Middle Earth in their fight against Sauron.

[Sean]

Galadriel knows who he is. She's done. You know, I mean, the text even says Aloran. Of course, that's the name he was known by in Valinor. But the implication is Galadriel knows full well that she's not just talking to some old guy.

[James]

Right. Exactly. Yeah.

[Sean]

Yeah. That, of course, is when Gandalf pulls the reverse golem. Look at what I've got in my pockets.

[James]

Or behind your ear, I still imagine. That's right.

[Sean]

Oh, what is this? Whoa. It's an Elessar. And he brings it to her directly from Yavanna herself, with some guidance to use it. And in doing so, to make where she lives the fairest place in Middle Earth.

[James]

Ah, but there's a catch, isn't there? A you don't get to keep it. You will need to pass it on when the time comes.

[Sean]

That's right. Not the way Earendil was told. Yeah, it's a flip of that.

[James]

Yeah.

[Sean]

But I do love this next bit, because Gandalf is essentially confirming to Galadriel that she will get to go west. So I want to talk about this in the context of the band, but he says, before you at last forsake Middle Earth. Mm. Wow. Is he telling her?

[James]

Is this foresight at this moment? Is the ban in place? It's like we can't tell from sentence to sentence.

[Sean]

No, we can't.

[James]

It does shift.

[Sean]

I mean, it sounds like, though the fact that that one sentence got changed to not yet permitted means that he was working under the idea that Galadriel was still banned. Yeah, and it fits with the whole thing about the years of exile weighing heavy upon her. And here you have Gandalf saying, oh, by the way, before you at last forsake Middle Earth. Not if you. At some point, but before you do this thing. He's speaking of it as though it's a surety. Right. You shall hand it on when the time comes. For before you grow weary and at last forsake Middle Earth, one shall come. Yeah, that's just interesting. And how that fits with the ban and whether Galadriel took that to note, like, oh, so there is hope. I will get to leave at some point.

[James]

Yeah, I'm still also confused how it fits in with the fact she's got one of the three, but I am too. I don't think we're not going to resolve that here. Then Gandalf says that there's someone who will come to her who she has to give it to, and his name will be the same name as the stone Elissa.

[Sean]

Which, not surprisingly, fits absolutely perfectly with what Galadriel says to Aragorn when she gives him the stone. He in this hour, take the name that was foretold for you. Elessar, the Elfstone of the House of Elendil. Great stuff.

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[James]

at the Home Depot.

[Sean]

Exclusions apply. See homedepot.com pricematch for details. Now soon we'll get back to the other story of the return of the lsr. Or I don't know what about the LSR Strikes Back? Revenge of the lsr? I don't know. Before we do though, I want to take a minute to thank the amazing community that's grown up around this show over the past 10 years. After all, and thankfully there is a lot more talk going on at the Prancing Pony Podcast than just us.

[James]

Yeah, the PPP really does have a warm and welcoming listener community. If you've got questions or just want to talk about how much you love Middle Earth, be sure to check out our Common room on Facebook and across all social media on Facebook, just look for the Prancing Pony podcast. Yeah, there's a page, but you're going to want to join the group for that great fan community.

[Sean]

Now on every social media platform other than Facebook, we are just prancingponypod. You can find our subreddit @r prancingponypod and be sure to check out my Daily show, today's Tolkien times on YouTube, and all your favorite podcast apps. You can get your daily Middle Earth fix there with everything from Tolkien Tuesdays to Third Age Thursdays. Be sure to watch or [e-mail] PrincipOnYPod oh, like we said last time, we've had first elessarys. What about second elessar? James, take it away.

[James]

The other tale runs so that long ago, ere Sauron deluded the Smiths of Eregion, Galadriel came there, and she said to Celebrimbor, the chief of the Elven Smiths, I am grieved in Middle Earth, for leaves fall and flowers fade, that I have loved so that the land of my dwelling is filled with regret that no spring can redress. How otherwise can it be for the Eldar if they cling to Middle Earth? Said Celebrimbor, Will you then pass over sea? Nay, she said, Angrod is gone, and Aegnor is gone, and Felagund is no more. Of Fnafen's children I am the last, but my heart is still proud. What wrong did the Golden House of Phenarfon do, that I should ask the pardon of the Valar, or be content with an isle in the sea, whose native land was Aman the Blessed? Here I am mightier. What would you then? Said Celebrimbor, I would have trees and grass about me that do not die here in the land that is mine. She answered, what has become of the skill of the Eldar? And Celebrimbor said, where now is the stone of Earendel? And Enedil, who made it, is gone. They have passed over sea, said Galadriel, with almost all fair things else. But must then Middle Earth fade and perish forever? That is its fate, I deem, said Celebrimbor, but you know that I love you, though you turn to Celeborn of the trees. And for that love I will do what I can, if haply by my art your grief can be lessened. But he did not say to Galadriel that he himself was of Gondolin long ago and a friend of Enedil, though his friend in most things outrivalled him. Yet if Enervil had not been, then Celebrimbor would have been more renowned. Therefore he took thought and began a long and delicate labour. And so for Galadriel he made the greatest of his works, save the Three Rings only. And it is said that more subtle and clear was the green gem that he made than that of a Nethill. But yet its light had less power. For whereas that of Inerthor was lit by the sun in its youth, already many years had passed ere Celebrimbor began his work. And nowhere in Middle Earth was the light as clear as it had been. For though Morgoth had been thrust out into the void and could not enter again, his far shadow lay upon it. Radiant nonetheless was the Elessar of Celebrimbor. And he set it within a great brooch of silver in the likeness of an eagle rising upon outspread wings, wielding the Elessar. All things grew fair about Galadriel until the coming of the Shadow to the forest. But afterwards, when Nenya, chief of the three, was sent to her by Celebrimbo, she needed it as she thought no more. And she gave it to Celebrian, her daughter. And so it came to Arwen and to Aragorn, who was called Elessar.

[Sean]

I think I now got the picture of how we were talking about the timing. And it's because the timing between the two stories is so radically different as to when she gets it. But we'll get to that. So as James read at the beginning of this passage, this is the other tale about how the LSR returned to Middle Earth.

[James]

Yeah, and remember, the original Elessar did exist. This is just a question of the nature of the one that we see in Middle Earth in. In Lord of the Rings.

[Sean]

So here the time is much earlier. Right. We're in the Second Age during the time before Sauron came to eregion, rather than third age 1000, which is after Gandalf arrives. So this is sometime after the founding of Eregion, which was in second age 750, but before 1200 when Annatar showed up with his door to door sales of ring making instruction. In this story she gets the Elessar 3500 years before she gets it. In the other story.

[James]

Yeah, back to that story, though, Galadriel approaches Celebrimbor as the leader of the Smiths and basically tells him how sad she is here in Middle Earth for reasons similar as in the first version. Right. Things die.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[James]

Instead of asking about the Elessar, Celebrimbor asks if she might sail west again.

[Sean]

Interesting stuff to deal with with the ban here, because Galadriel says she won't. She might be the last of an arfan's children, but she's still proud. She doesn't believe her house has done anything wrong. So it sounds like she's staying not because there's a ban, but out of some sort of stubborn pride. Yeah, but if this was written at the same time as the first part of the story, I'm not saying they're taking place at the same time, because they're not. Definitely not, obviously. Mid second age versus early third Age. But if he wrote this about, oh, I'm not going to go back, my house hasn't done anything wrong, what does this say about the ban? And is there ever shifting position on it? Or does it say anything that we can hang our hats on?

[James]

I mean, because he goes back and forth so much, I don't think we can date composition based on whether the band's in place.

[Sean]

Yeah, that makes sense. What was it, Thursday? You know, it's different today.

[James]

Yeah, right.

[Sean]

I also thought it was also interesting, you know, the text here actually read of Finrod's children and the Golden House of Finrod. But that's because, as we've talked about before, Tolkien made Finrod into Finarfin, and then that guy's son, who had been Ingor Felagund, turned him into Finrod. So.

[James]

Yeah, and that was a very late change. I mean, he'd already written. He'd already written Lord of the Rings when he made that change.

[Sean]

Yeah, which is why you still see Gildor in Glorion, because he's connected to that house. Yeah, yeah. So what about this? Being content with Tolorcea rather than Aman itself. I kind of got thrown by this a little bit. James, are returning elves simply not allowed back to Valinor proper? Do they all have to live on that tiny, now overpopulated island? It's still been removed. It's not like Tolorsea is on the Globe and the straight road goes from there. Yeah, yeah, but why only Tolorcea, not Amon?

[James]

Yeah. I can't help but wonder if she cares, particularly because she had been On.

[Sean]

Yeah. I was born there. I should be able to go wherever I want, not just stick on the island. Yeah, man, I hope that island's a little bigger than I thought. If all the returning elves end up there.

[James]

We also get a strong glimpse of her pride here. Right. She says, here I am mightier.

[Sean]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

[James]

We've talked about this before, right? This idea that she. She liked being a big fish in a small pond.

[Sean]

That's exactly what I'm thinking of. Big fish, small pond. Yeah. I mean, she is absolutely top dog here. The most powerful elf in Middle Earth at this point. One of the oldest remaining. I mean, obviously Cirdan is older, possibly celeborn, but man.

[James]

Yeah, yeah. She says, yeah, here I am mightier. Yeah. And we get it. Right. You won't go back. Okay, then, what would you like?

[Sean]

Right.

[James]

Celebrimbor's just wanting to give her a chance to talk.

[Sean]

And this is an interesting spot because the conversation that she has here with Celebrimbor is strikingly similar to the one that she has with Gandalf in the other version of the story. Just wants the things in her land to not die.

[James]

Yeah. And. And some of the conversation is taken almost.

[Sean]

Almost word for word.

[James]

This is. This is the equivalent conversation. Tolkien just transferred it three and a half thousand years earlier and made it with Celebrimbor rather than. Than Galadriel. And Celebrimbor brings up the Elessa, Galadriel basically saying the same thing as she said to Gandalf. They've passed over the sea with almost all fair things else versus as almost all fair things besides.

[Sean]

Yeah, pretty much identical.

[James]

Yeah, exactly. And the question about Middle Earth fading and dying is identical except for the first word here, a but. And it was an and in the first version.

[Sean]

So changes without a difference.

[James]

Yeah, exactly. Clearly, this is the unchanging core of the story for Tolkien, regardless of how it shakes out that the Elessar returned.

[Sean]

And that's interesting, because if this is the core, like, what. What do we take from this? We know that no matter what was going to happen with this second Elessar, this is all about Galadriel's desire to keep things the same, isn't it? This is just whatever it takes.

[James]

It's also the wanting to have. And this is the big challenge Tolkien talks about the elves having. Wanting the best of both worlds. Yes, they want the opportunities of Middle Earth, but with the blessings of Valinor. Yeah.

[Sean]

They want to be able to live forever and have all that perfection in The Undying Lands.

[James]

But they want to have it in

[Sean]

Lords in Middle Earth.

[James]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

[Sean]

Then we get the curveball out of nowhere.

[James]

I know where you're going with this.

[Sean]

I think the first time I read this I was like, the what now? Celebrimbor offering. Oh, I'll do what I can to lessen her grief because of his love for her. Wait a minute. Back the truck up.

[James]

What was that?

[Sean]

Despite her choosing Celeborn of the trees, she like, swiped left on Celebrimbor.

[James]

It's funny. The twist of Galadriel having the. I mean, sorry. Of Gandalf having the Elessar all along is transferred to this being the twist in this version that. Hey, I love you, Grimbor.

[Sean]

What now?

[James]

I did not see that coming the first time I read this. A grandson of Feanor loving the daughter of Phenarfon. Except maybe he's not.

[Sean]

That's the point. I mean, if he were Feanor's grandson. The guy we always kind of think of when we think of Celebrimbor. Right? The son of. Is it Curufin or. Yeah, that's what I thought. I couldn't remember. He was one of the seas, and the seas are both the bad guys. That's all I ever remember. But you know, the grandson of Feanor. That would be creepy because Finwe is Galadriel's grandfather and Celebrimbor's great grandfather. That would make them first cousins one time removed.

[James]

Maybe that's one of the reasons. Yeah, maybe that's one of the reasons why in this version it seems Celebrimbor wasn't related.

[Sean]

Yeah, I mean, he has to change that story up, doesn't he?

[James]

Yeah.

[Sean]

On a non creepy note, we get that really cool archaic word, haply, which has nothing to do with happily. Right. H A P L Y Has nothing to do with happiness. It's just by any chance or perhaps. And that's the same hap there. Per Hapley. Perhaps. Perhaps this is where we also get the happily. So I just love that word. It's a great, great little archaic word.

[James]

I seem to recall. Happily does actually. Is actually cognate. But of course just took on a different meaning at one stage. It did.

[Sean]

That makes sense.

[James]

Lucky, basically.

[Sean]

Oh, like happenstance. Yeah, yeah.

[James]

And just, you know, being. Being lucky. Good things happening by chance, not necessarily bad things.

[Sean]

Oh, I love that. That's great. But yeah, haply.

[James]

Yeah. But while he confessed his love for Galadriel, he didn't tell her that he was of Gondolin.

[Sean]

Okay. Of Gondolin. So he's not the Feanorian grandson here.

[James]

Yeah, he's the gondolin. The gondolin celebration. I wonder why he wouldn't say that. But at least it suggests that he's not related to her in this particular version of the story.

[Sean]

Yeah. At least it takes away the creep factor. The relevance from him being from Gondolin at some point is that he had been friends with the nerdhil who had made the first one. Like, hey, I was there when my buddy made the first one, and I'm a pretty great craftsman. I mean, I'm not quite as good as an Airdhil. Wait a minute. What?

[James]

So it's interesting that depending on whether Celebrimbor is from Gondolin or a descendant of Feanor, he seems to have a bit of a complex about somebody that was better at crafting than him.

[Sean]

Yeah, he wanted to surpass his grandfather when he was a Feanorian. Right. The three rings. But he.

[James]

Here, he wants to surpass his buddy Inethor, who. I'm reading between the lines. I suspect, like, the two of them might have liked the same girl, and a Netherdo got the girl.

[Sean]

And that's kind of what I'm thinking.

[James]

Yeah, that's what it sounds like to me. So I'm going to this time. I'm going to.

[Sean]

Yeah, that's my headcanon right there.

[James]

Yeah. So he creates a second gem called the Elessar, and it's said to be the greatest of his works, other than the Three, which there are a few centuries in the future at this point in time. So in this version, she clearly doesn't have the Three, right?

[Sean]

Well, yeah. Rings have a three.

[James]

This gets over that problem we were talking about before.

[Sean]

It does, doesn't it?

[James]

What's the significance of it if she's got one of the three? It's more subtle, more clear, but less powerful than the original.

[Sean]

I thought it was interesting, by the way, how the text tells us why it's less powerful. It's not because Celebrimbor isn't a great craftsman. It's not it at all. It's that they're both lit by the sun, but the sun isn't as bright as it was in the First Age. And this is interesting. I don't know that I'd ever considered this.

[James]

I can't think of another time where this is talked about.

[Sean]

No, but it is such a. It certainly explains some things almost, you know, like last week we talked about. Or Two weeks ago. The residue of evil. Like, what does it take to clean the residue of evil?

[James]

Right, yes.

[Sean]

And the new and improved Soylent Green. The fact that Morgoth's far shadow lay upon Middle Earth. Even though he's beyond the doors of night, he can never come back. It's this just slight overcastness. It's a hazier day. It's not as bright. So even our brightest days, even those sunny July days when the sun is just beating down on us, they're still not as bright as the days in Gondolin and the First Age.

[James]

Yeah, I mean, it's a really interesting way of conveying the decline from a golden Age in yet another way, another

[Sean]

way of explaining it.

[James]

Yeah, it's even. Even the sun. Even the sun. When I was a kid, the sun was bright, you know.

[Sean]

Yeah. Can you imagine saying that in my day, the sun was brighter?

[James]

Yeah.

[Sean]

Oh, man. Well, I'll tell you what. The elves must have gone through a lot of sunglasses back then.

[James]

Yeah.

[Sean]

A lot of first stage sunglasses.

[James]

Yeah. High spf. Yeah.

[Sean]

Oh, oh, sunscreen. Yeah, for sure.

[James]

Yeah, exactly. But while the Alessa. The second Alessa might not be as powerful, it's still described as radiant. And now we also get the setting into which it's placed. The silver brooch of an eagle with outspread wings.

[Sean]

Famously, I always mispronounce that word. So I made sure to highlight that outline point for you about the brooch. I appreciate it because for some reason I still want to pronounce it brooch. And I know that's not the word. It sounds stupid coming out of my mouth and I know that's not it, but it always comes out the first time. I'm like, oh, no, no, it's broach. That's right.

[James]

It occurs to me, I don't know if this is the reason, but that spelling makes sense if it was pre. Great vowel shift. It's almost as if the word avoided the great vowel shift.

[Sean]

Yeah, the long O. O. Yeah, like foe.

[James]

I mean, the word foot used to be phot.

[Sean]

Phote. Right.

[James]

Used to say. Yeah, you just say the word O for longer. That'd be worth looking into at some stage. How did the brooch escape the Great Valley?

[Sean]

Hid under the couch. I do like this, though, because now that we're given the setting in which it's placed, we get yet another comparison to a Lord of the Rings passage. Then Galadriel lifted from her lap a great stone of a clear green set in a silver brooch that was wrought in the likeness of an eagle with outspread wings. And as she held it up, the gem flashed like the sun shining through the leaves of spring.

[James]

And Galadriel gets what she wants, everything growing fair around her.

[Sean]

She's got a way. She's got a way about her.

[James]

Yeah. Until, of course, the coming of the Shadow to the forest.

[Sean]

And that's another thing to talk about, because I'd first read this as the return of Sauron to dol Guldur in third age 2460, but the next line seems to suggest otherwise, because when she gets Nenya, she gives the Elessar to Celebrian in this storyline in the second version of it. Right. And we know that Galadriel got the ring. She got Nenya shortly after the One Ring was forged in Second Age 1600. So let's say it was 1650, because it wasn't as late as 1700, because by then, Sauron's invading. So middle of the 1600s, there she gets the ring and she gives the Elessar to Celebrian. So what coming of the Shadow of the forest are we talking about? Did she hold onto it and the ring all the way until 2460 of the third age?

[James]

That's certainly not what the passage suggests. It suggests she gave it to Celebrian earlier, but.

[Sean]

I know. Well, that's the thing. But I guess everything was growing fair around her until the coming of the Shadow of the forest, but. So the shadow impacted, maybe not the ring, but impacted the Alessarin? Not sure. I don't know. I'm having a hard time with this one, I admit. Listeners were willing to hear your input on this one. What's the story? Maybe this is a reason why this never got a second version of the draft.

[James]

It's from Celebrian that it goes to Arwen, of course, then to Aragorn. But that doesn't track with Galadriel giving it to him in Lord of the Rings.

[Sean]

Yeah, I mean, unless Arwen gives it back to Galadriel to say, hey, give this to Aragorn when you see him. But why would she do that? It is a little odd. And it does feel like, in either case, whichever of these two storylines, he was going to go with for the. The second Elessar's return or the second Elessar, whether it's the first return or the new one, he was going to have to do a lot of work.

[James]

Well, I was going to say, we have to remember, of course, that there's always this temptation when we Read these unpublished manuscripts to assume they're prior to Lord of the Rings. But of course, this was written after Lord of the Rings, right?

[Sean]

This was. We know this is written after the

[James]

Lord of the Rings. So is he changing his mind from the.

[Sean]

Is he going to do yet the third edition of the Lord of the Rings and tweak some of the words here about the Olesar? Or maybe she hands the stone to him and say, arwen asked me to give you this. The thing is that whichever version of this is true, either first Elessar comes back or second Elessar is made by Celebrimbor. The fact that it was given by Galadriel to Aragorn in Lord of the Rings is another of those really, really deep cuts. It's honestly one of my favorites. James?

[James]

Yeah, in Morgoth's Ring, there's an essay called Laws and Customs among the Eldar. And it's a great read, filled with tons of cool lore. But there's one bit in particular that ties to this story that's really worth

[Sean]

reading, and it's a portion of the story that's talking about wedding traditions and the exchange of rings by the bride and groom and things like that. Tolkien writes, among the Noldor also it was a custom that the bride's mother should give to the bridegroom a jewel upon a chain or collar, and the bridegroom's father should give a like gift to the bride. These gifts were sometimes given before the feast. Thus the gift of Galadriel to Aragorn, since she was in place of Arwen's mother, was in part a bridal gift, an earnest of the wedding that was later accomplished. I love that Tolkien going back, you have to wonder when he wrote that had he is obviously that part of the history of Middle Earth is written after the Lord of the Rings. Did he think, oh, I'm going to make this, I'm going to connect these things now? That.

[James]

Did he have any mind at the

[Sean]

time or did he have it in mind later? Exactly. That's what I want to know. Did he know when Galadriel handed Aragorn the Elessar in the Lord of the Rings, that this was a tradition among Noldor families that were getting wed, or did he think, oh, this is a really cool opportunity to tie in my story here with the story I wrote? I don't know. We'll never know.

[James]

But we never know.

[Sean]

Yeah, it's fascinating stuff.

[James]

Okay, Alan, let's move on to which Alessa is it?

[Sean]

Anyway, let's do that, Christopher explains, and most of what I'm going to read here is Christopher's words. This narrative goes with Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn in certain features, and was probably written at about the same time or a little earlier. Celebrimbor is here again a jewel smith of Gondolin rather than one of the Feanorians, and Galadriel is spoken of as being unwilling to forsake Middle Earth, though the text was later amended and the conception of the ban introduced, and at a later point in the narrative she speaks of the pardon of the Valar. Enirhil appears in no other writing, and the concluding words of the text show that Celebrimbor was to displace him as the maker of the Elessar. In Gondolin. Of Celebrimbor's love for Galadriel there is no trace elsewhere in Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn the suggestion is that he came to eregion with them. But in that text, as in the Silmarillion, Galadriel met Celeborn in Doriath, and it is difficult to understand Celebrimbor's words, though you turned to Celeborn of the trees. Obscure also is the reference to Galadriel's dwelling under the trees of Greenwood the Great. This might be taken as a loose use nowhere else evidenced of the expression to include the woods of Lorien on the other side of Anduin. But the coming of the Shadow to the Forest undoubtedly refers to the arising of Sauron in Dol Guldurg, which in Appendix A3 to the Lord of the Rings is called the Shadow in the Forest. This may imply that Galadriel's power at one time extended into the southern parts of Greenwood the Great, and support for this may be found in Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn, where the realm of Lorinand is said to have extended into the forests on both sides of the Great river, including the region where afterwards was Dol Guldurg. It is possible also that the same conception underlay the statement in Appendix B to the Lord of the Rings in the headnote to the Tale of Years of the Second Age as it appeared in the first edition, many of the Sindar passed eastward and established realms in the forests far away. The chief of these were Thranduil in the north of Greenwood the Great, and Celeborn in the south of the forest. In the revised edition this remark about Celeborn was omitted, and instead there appears a reference to his dwelling in Lindon. I love how Christopher here is just trying to answer all the questions brought up by the text.

[James]

Like, exactly. He's going through the same thing we did.

[Sean]

Exactly. We're trying to figure it out now.

[James]

We skipped a short bit at the beginning that's even more confusing because it says the first Elessar was made in Gondolin, but by Celebrimbor. And it's gone, just like in the first story. But then he made the replacement as well for Galadriel, with the text adding a parenthetical whom he loved. Adding that since it was made prior to Sauron's rise to power, the Elessar was not under the one interesting implication that it would be.

[Sean]

I know. That's what I was thinking. Like, really, Even though it's not a ring. But I suppose if he crafted it using any of the knowledge that he'd been given, it would have some sort of a backdoor vulnerability to the malicious code from the One Ring, you know, to put it in some sort of terms. But the rest of this, which is what we read, is Christopher's lengthy discussion. He explains that manuscript goes with the Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn piece that we covered in the second and third episodes on this chapter, and speculates that it was written around the same time, possibly a little bit earlier. And that's when he starts to walk through the details and changes and additions. The first is the one about Celebrimbor, that he's Jewel Smith of Gondolin rather than, you know, the grandson of Feanor.

[James]

And recall it in the Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn section. We read about how they had, in their company an Aldoran craftsman named Celebrimbor. Originally, Tolkien said he was one of the survivors of Gondolin who had been among Turgon's greatest artificers.

[Sean]

I don't know if I caught that at the time. A couple weeks ago, when we read

[James]

that, I mean, it sounded familiar when I read. It's always hard to tell, but.

[Sean]

Yeah, I know. Did we observe that, then, that that would have also ruled him out as Feanorian? Yeah. As a grandson of Feanor. Absolutely. Interesting stuff. It was only later, of course, that Tolkien changed the text to make him a descendant of Feanor. Christopher then catches the big change we pointed out earlier, the ban question, the fact that she was unwilling to leave Middle Earth, but then got changed to not yet permitted. And of course, the idea of the ban then fits with her mentioning the pardon of the Valar later, too.

[James]

Yeah. Next he addresses the question of Who Inerthill is. Like we said when we first met him. He doesn't show up in any other writing?

[Sean]

Nope.

[James]

Combine that with a bit at the end about Celebrimbor creating the first one in Gondolin. Christopher says that Celebrimbor was to displace Enerdil as the maker of the Elessar in Gondolin.

[Sean]

Ah, poor Enerthil. He can. He can join Malgalad with the list of other characters that had been supplanted,

[James]

apparently, or shockingly, even Pengalov. Oh, yeah, just a shout out to my boy Pengalov, who erased from history,

[Sean]

wiped out from history. The erasure of Pengalov. Yeah, so we get it. And there they'll never exist. It was always Celebrimbor. And finally he talks about that.

[James]

Sorry, I'm just having visions of, you know, it was always Celebrimbor, always. Or maybe, you know, taking the mask off or something. You know, one of these Tom Cruise, Mission Impossible style. Take the mask off.

[Sean]

It's not an Airdale, it's Celebrimbor. And so finally he talks about the elephant in the room, right? The supposed love that Celebrimbor had for Galadriel, which certainly threw me for a loop. Christopher explains there is no trace elsewhere of this idea. But he does point out that in the Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn text, Celebrimbor came with them both to Eregion. That's the one we talked about, where he was a jewel smith of Gondolin, one of the finest artificers. But in that version, Galadriel had already met Celeborn and Doria. So the choices made ages ago. Well, literally an age ago, which would have been made in the first stage. So he couldn't have possibly loved her for that long because he was in Gondolin then. Right, so more things for Tolkien to fix, like.

[James]

Yeah, when did.

[Sean]

When did they meet? They obviously would have had to met before she met Celeborn. Who knows and remembers. That's never going to work. She's not that into you, Celebrimbor. She's just not into you.

[James]

And remember, we're a bit confused by Galadriel supposedly living under the trees of Greenwood the Great when Gandalf found her. Well, we're not the only ones. Christopher found this reference obscure and he suggests it could be connected to what we'd read in one of those earlier stories about how Lorien included woods on both sides of the Anduin.

[Sean]

But. And this is where I get thrown again. Wasn't that the time where Lorian had woods on both sides of the river? Wasn't that before her time there? Because it was in the concerning Galadriel Celeborn bit where we read that Lornand extended into the forests on both sides of the great river, including the region where afterwards was Dol Guldur. But I'm pretty sure time wise, that's before her arrival there. I don't know. But Christopher references that as support for this possibility. I guess I just gotta ask you, what do you think? What do we think? Especially that Christopher agrees with us that the coming of the shadow to the forest is. Is the reference to Sauron taking over Dol guldur shortly after third age 1000.

[James]

Yeah.

[Sean]

I'm not sure I can reconcile any of this.

[James]

Yeah, I'm not sure. Christopher also suggests that this same idea is behind the line in Independence B. Tale of years that most of us won't have in our text because it was only in the first edition. Fortunately, I do have a. I was

[Sean]

gonna say fortunately you have the first editions, you know, many impressions of each and, you know.

[James]

No, not quite one impression was rich enough for me, but. Yeah.

[Sean]

And not the first either.

[James]

No, I've got a first. It's a first edition impression.

[Sean]

Oh, that's right.

[James]

It is a first impression. But it was. It's not. Wasn't in great condition, but I didn't care because it was the text I wanted, not the. Not the collectible value of it.

[Sean]

Exactly. And the dust jackets, if you get one that's got the dust jacket.

[James]

Yeah, I don't have a Dust.

[Sean]

You don't have one at all. That's about the only way to afford a first impression, frankly.

[James]

Exactly.

[Sean]

When they're in great shape, they're. They're massively expensive sets.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Yeah.

[James]

And. And Return of the Kings also a lot cheaper than the other two.

[Sean]

It's Fellowship.

[James]

That's Fellowship is ten times as much. Yeah.

[Sean]

They only printed how many in the first impression? I want to say 1500, something like that.

[James]

Yeah.

[Sean]

It was at the Hobbit that There was only 1500. There wasn't a lot.

[James]

Hobbit was 1500. Might have been three. Three and a half thousand maybe for the Fellowship, but certainly not. Yeah. And I wonder how many of those are still.

[Sean]

Still extant.

[James]

Yeah, still extant. But we can talk about that a bit more when we talk about the Tolkien Books database.

[Sean]

Oh, that'd be fun. Definitely.

[James]

Episode's time.

[Sean]

Yeah. Yeah.

[James]

That first edition, though, has this bit that's different from what most of us read that the Sindar realms were led by Thranduil in the north of Greenwood the Great and Celeborn in the south of the forest.

[Sean]

So initially, when he wrote the first edition of Lord of the Rings, Celeborn was the ruler of Lorien, which fits with one of the versions of the story we read where she meets him there.

[James]

But notice it says south of the forest. Same same forest. It's Greenwood the Great north, and it's just basically a north south division of the Greenwood. Yeah.

[Sean]

Yeah, that's interesting. So if that's the case, Lorien extends into the region of Greenwood the Great that we now know. You know includes the area of what will be dog Uldur. But it's before Galadriel gets there. So why is she all the way over in Greenwood the Great? None of us know. Even Christopher. So we skipped the last paragraph here. It's Christopher pointing out what we mentioned earlier about the healing power of the LSR being a reflection of sorts of what was attributed to the Silmaril. The world moves fast. Your workday even faster Pitching products, drafting reports, analyzing data Microsoft 365 Copilot is your AI assistant for work built into Word, Excel, PowerPoint and other Microsoft 365 apps you use, helping you quickly write, analyze, create and summarize so you can cut through clutter and clear a path to your best work. Learn [e-mail] M365Copilot this episode is brought

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[James]

We told you about the amazing PPP community after our earlier break. If you're part of that community and want to enjoy something even more special, come join the Fellowship of the Podcast on Patreon. You'll get to be in the best discord community around, one that includes host hangouts and even live episode recordings.

[Sean]

And of course, your support there is what enables me to work full time doing all of the shows, the ppp, Today's Tolkien Times, the Rings of Power Wrap up, and my streaming show the PPP plays. When you join, you can also get episode postscripts, ad free episodes, free merch and more.

[James]

And you can join our questions after Nightfall episodes or even appear as a guest in the north wing. Go to patreon.com prancingponypod to show your support and join the Fellowship of the Podcast.

[Sean]

Don't forget to rate and review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify, and please recommend us to your friends. You can do that directly on Spotify now. Just share the show with them. James we're going to move on from the story proper, if you will, into the appendices. This first one is on the Sylvan Elves, isn't it?

[James]

Yeah.

[Sean]

All right, take us away.

[James]

In a late etymological discussion of the names Galadriel, Celeborn, and Lorien, the Sylvan Elves of Mirkwood and Lorien are specifically declared to be descended from the Teleran elves who remained in the Vale of Anduin. And now we drop into what Tolkien writes the Silvan elves, Te Warwaieth, were in origin Teleri and so remoter kin of the Sindar, though even longer separated from them than the Teleri of Valinor, they were descended from those of the Teleri who on the Great Journey were daunted by the Misty Mountains and lingered in the Vale of Unduin, and so never reached Beleriand or the sea. They were thus closer akin to the Nandor, otherwise called the Green Elves of Assiriand, who eventually crossed the mountains and came at last into Beleriand. Christopher sums up a the Silvan elves hid themselves in woodland fastnesses beyond the Misty Mountains and became small and scattered peoples, hardly to be distinguished from Avari and then the rest of this is all the professor. But they still remembered that they were in origin Eldar, members of the Third Clan, and they welcomed those of the Noldor and especially the Sindar, who did not pass over the sea but migrated eastward. Under the leadership of these, they became again ordered folk and increased in wisdom. Thranduil, father of Legolas, of the Nine Walkers, was Sindarin, and that tongue was used in his house, though not by all his folk. In Lorien, where many of the people were Sindarin origin or Noldor survivors from Eregion, Sindarin had become the language of all the people. In what way their Sindarin differed from the forms of Beleriand. See the Fellowship of the Ring, where Frodo reports that the speech of the Sylvan folk that they used among themselves was unlike that of the west is not, of course, now known. It probably differed in little more than what would now be popularly called accent, mainly differences of vowel sounds and intonation sufficient to mislead one who, as Frodo, was not well acquainted with Pura Sindarin. There may of course, also have been some local words and other features, ultimately due to the influence of the former Silvan tongue. Lorien had long been much isolated from the outside world. Certainly some names preserved from its past, such as Amroth and Nimrodel, cannot be fully explained from Sindarin, though fitting it in form, Karath seems to be an old word for a moated fortress not found in Sindarin. Lorien is probably an alteration of an older name now lost.

[Sean]

And we know that it is. We've looked at the names, you know, the Loranand and then the Lorelendornen and all of that, and sort of the older name that did get in fact lost. But so this is a late etymological discussion of the names Galadriel, Celeborn and Lorien. And by the way, we're going to get a whole other appendix next week on just the names of Galadriel and Celeborn. But in the meantime we get a reminder of who the Silvan Elves are in relation to the Sindar and the Nandor.

[James]

And notice this discussion of relative distance. They're further from The Sindar than the Sindar are from the Valinorian Teleri, and they're closer to the Nandor. Now, that's in terms of distance in time, the amount of time since they were separated, which relates to how distant the languages end up being. And, of course, this is at the heart of why this is coming up in an etymological discussion. This is yet another case where we're

[Sean]

getting another etymological discussion.

[James]

We're getting yet another etymological etymological discussion. We find out that these people are also called the Tawar. Wyeth. Tawa, or forest, is related to the tower name that we get in various tower.

[Sean]

Things like that.

[James]

Exactly.

[Sean]

Okay.

[James]

It's the word for forest. Same, same idea. And it's, of course, gwaith lanited. So the gwaith just becomes wythe in Tawar. Wythe.

[Sean]

So that's like forodwaith. And which way? Both refers to the region and of the people. And then a few others that.

[James]

Enidwaith.

[Sean]

Enidwyth. That's the one. Yep. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So Christopher adds a summary. They hid in woodland fastnesses. Now, fastness is a refuge usually protected by natural features. So something like the Henneth of Nun would be a fastness, for instance. But here they became small and scattered peoples, hardly to be distinguished from avarice. And that is saying something, because, remember, the Avari were the unwilling. They're the ones who didn't even want to go, who wanted nothing to do with the Valar. So does this explain the sense in which these Sindar elves are sort of viewed as lesser?

[James]

Yeah, I wondered that, because, I mean to say, they're hardly to be distinguished from Avari. In what way? How would you distinguish the Avari from the Eldar?

[Sean]

It does seem a little odd. Yeah.

[James]

Yeah. But there's obviously prejudices that other elves would have about these different clans.

[Sean]

One of those elves, yes.

[James]

You look like one of the Avari.

[Sean]

Is this really your neighborhood? Do you belong here? What's your name? I'm the president of the hoa. I'm going to have to ask you to leave. Sorry.

[James]

We've discussed Elvish Nimbys. Yeah, Elvish Nimbys as well. Yeah.

[Sean]

And Elvish Nimby. Sauron was a Nimby, as we found out.

[James]

Right.

[Sean]

They still remembered, though, that they were, in origin, Eldar, that is, they were not unwilling, they were willing. They were just cowardly. They didn't like mountains.

[James]

Yeah. Well, I think it's interesting, though, that they still remembered Dar in Origin, Eldar. It reminds me, actually, of some of the Tell Elmar stuff about sort of.

[Sean]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[James]

The pride in the background. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[Sean]

Then it says, though, that under the leadership of the Noldor and Sindar, they became, again, ordered folk and increased in wisdom. And that makes me feel like the Sindar or the Noldor are the ones writing this history.

[James]

Exactly.

[Sean]

Like under our amazing leadership. Look at what happened.

[James]

Yeah. With the Sylvan. Elves themselves have said we were. We were unordered and scattered until those other people came along and ruled us. And they made us so much more ordered, increased our heroes. But, I mean, it does say that they welcomed them. But again, whose point of view is that?

[Sean]

That's true.

[James]

I don't know.

[Sean]

You always have to ask who's writing that history. You're right.

[James]

Exactly.

[Sean]

Yeah. I mean, we know from last week's story or from two weeks ago, I should say that Nimmerdell wasn't too pleased.

[James]

That's actually a really good point.

[Sean]

And I wonder if that's a perspective that would have been seen early in their leadership under the Sindar, whether that might have been more commonly held, that sort of. I'm only going to speak the Sylvan tongue.

[James]

Yeah.

[Sean]

I'm not here for you, man.

[James]

Yeah, exactly.

[Sean]

Interesting.

[James]

Then we get mention of Thranduil, who we're told is Sindarin.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[James]

And interestingly, he's described as the father of Legolas of the Nine Walkers. And I thought it was really interesting, that choice of describing the Fellowship as the Nine Walkers. And I wonder if that particular term gives us any hints as to whose point of view this is. Is the Nine Walkers what the Elves referred to them as? That's what I'm.

[Sean]

Well, Elrond is the one who gave them that name. Right. The Nine Walkers shall set out against the Nine Riders.

[James]

It's just interesting that that term, the Nine Walkers, is used here.

[Sean]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. As opposed to, like, Legolas of the Fellowship or Legolas of the Company.

[James]

Yeah.

[Sean]

Legolas of the Nine Walkers. Almost makes me think this is a historian in Elrond's house.

[James]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sean]

Because of the fact that Elrond's the one who gave them that name. Yeah.

[James]

It's interesting.

[Sean]

Oh, interesting. That's an interesting spin, too, if it is.

[James]

Yeah. Again, it's one of those things I can't imagine Tonkin did by accident. He would have had in mind. Oh, no, the Nine Walkers is what a particular group would refer to them as.

[Sean]

They were only called that in a Few places I'd have to do a really more in depth search. But that's not one of the more common descriptions. It's almost always the company, even Fellowship, it's not really called that as often as you think, given the title of the book.

[James]

It's far more Companies is the company's much more common term. Yeah.

[Sean]

That's so interesting. Legolas of the Nine Walkers. It does feel very.

[James]

I like your idea that this is a. Yeah, a Rivendell Lorema scribe or scribe or something. Then we get this, presumably Noldor or something. A Noldor. Then we get this little bit of information that Sindarin was used in his house quote, though not by all his folk. In other words, not all the Silvan elves used Sintarin, as Nimrodel would say. Right.

[Sean]

Of course, this is in contrast to the Silvan elves further south in Lorien, which we're told all spoke Sindarin. Again, except for Nimmerdel. As Tolkien points out in Fellowship of the Ring, Frodo notices their Sindarin, though, sounded different. In the chapter Lothlorien we read, Frodo could understand little of what was said, for the speech that the Sylvan folk east of the mountains used among themselves was unlike that of the West. Now, that seems to suggest that it could be a completely different language. And I don't know, maybe Tolkien intended that at the time. But clearly with what we're reading here in the appendices, it's the same language, just spoken differently.

[James]

Yeah. And in fact, in the second edition to Lord of the Rings, a footnote was added to Appendix F that includes a lot of the information in this essay, including. Including this notion that it is just a dialect difference, basically an accent difference. And I love this. Tolkien then feigns ignorance of the details. He says that it's not, of course, now known, even though he's the person making this up. It's that wonderful seat.

[Sean]

I love it.

[James]

It's such a wonderful way he's done this. That sort of whole found manuscript, this

[Sean]

whole idea of there's a historian writing this and he doesn't know.

[James]

And he's. Yeah. And he goes and conjectures that the differences were probably, he says, in the vowel sounds and intonation, basically just a difference in accent, and that that term accent appears in the footnote in the second edition of Lord of the Rings too. So clearly by the time of the second edition, Tolkien was conceiving it as basically just an accent difference. Then. Then Tolkien says, wouldn't it have to

[Sean]

Be a pretty strong accent, though, for Frodo to be.

[James]

Frodo.

[Sean]

Completely unrecognizable.

[James]

Yeah. I mean, maybe it's just one of those, really.

[Sean]

There are some heavy accents. Yeah. Really thick accents where I, even as an English speaker, can't quite grasp.

[James]

Yeah.

[Sean]

And I wonder if that's what he's talking about here, too, where it's not just an accent, but also perhaps, like, word order or sentence structure that makes things hard to pick up, because once you can get a couple words, you can start to catch the flow.

[James]

Yeah. I mean, certainly he brings that up next. He says there may have also been some local words and other features, ultimately due to the influence of the Flood. Former Sylvan tongue.

[Sean]

There you go.

[James]

He says may also have been. So, again, he's just speculating I invented it all. But, you know, maybe I'm pretending I'm a fictitious philologist, not the actual inventor of the languages.

[Sean]

I love it. I absolutely love it. That's great stuff.

[James]

This is where I think it gets really interesting. He says the influence of the former Sylvan tongues. So unlike the folk of Thranduil, Sylvan is no longer spoken at all in Lorien. But there's some specific words and linguistic features that Tolkien speculates go back to the prior Sylvan substrate, as historical linguists would call it. The language that was spoken before the language that's now spoken was brought in, and they were preserved locally in Lorien because of its isolation. And I've brought this up before in the context of Ancient Greek in episodes, there are words in Ancient Greek that defy explanation as coming from the Indo European ancestor of Greek, and they're speculated as being derived from the original language spoken in Greece before the arrival of the Indo Europeans. So I think it's a similar thing going on here. And Tolkien even says some names cannot be fully explained from Sindarin, and this is a very linguistically realistic phenomenon.

[Sean]

Oh, yeah, no, that makes sense. He gives examples like Amroth, Nimrodel, Karas, like Karas, Galadhan and even Lorien itself. Although, as Christopher notes in a part that we skipped, we were earlier told that Lorranand was the original Sylvan name.

[James]

Yeah.

[Sean]

Those same names, though, are mentioned in the second edition Lord of the Rings in the footnote to Appendix F that we mentioned earlier.

[James]

Yeah. Tolkien says that Karas seems to be an old word for a moated fortress, which we're told is not found in Sindarin. So we even get a bit of linguistic anthropology here. The fact that they use the archaic word suggests that it was a structure familiar to the pre Sindarin Elves but foreign to the Sindarins themselves. Right. So if the Sindarins are using an old name for a particular structure, not their own word, they didn't have their own word for that structure. They adopted the word of the local people.

[Sean]

Of the Sylvan Elves.

[James]

Yeah, of the Sylvan Elves in this case. That suggests that that structure itself was unique to the Sylvan Elves. Otherwise they would have used that. They wouldn't have had to have used.

[Sean]

You know, that makes sense. Of course.

[James]

Yeah. And of course, this whole concept allows Tolkien to introduce words that he likes, Aesthet, even if they don't technically work as a Sindarin. Right.

[Sean]

I love that.

[James]

If he's like, I really want to. I really like that.

[Sean]

But it's not.

[James]

It doesn't fit with the languages, fit with the language. He could just claim, oh, they were part of the Sylvan substrate that existed before the Noldor and the Sindar showed up.

[Sean]

Next time I. Next time I misspeak and throw a word in there that just doesn't make any sense. I'll just have to chalk it up to being part of the Sylvan substrate.

[James]

Exactly. Well, I mean, that's the argument that I. I make in mispronouncing words. There's that great footnote in Appendix E where it says that among the Hobbits, Frodo was really the only one that got the Quenya vowels correct, that Bilbo couldn't, and that the Elves sort of viewed the Hobbit pronunciation of Elvish as being quite rustic. I speak Elvish like a Hobbit. You can.

[Sean]

There you go.

[James]

When you mispronounce I like Bilbo, I'm no worse than Bilbo.

[Sean]

Yeah, that's good company to be in.

[James]

Exactly.

[Sean]

So in the final part of the appendix that we had to skip, Christopher quotes another document of his father's from around the same time period talking about the relationship between Sindarin and Sylvan. That gives us the additional information that the Sylvan Elves. This is so interesting. Had invented no forms of writing. They were purely an oral. Their language was just oral only. No written structure, no books. No.

[James]

And when they did write, they wrote in the Sylvan way, which I think also goes a long way to explaining why the language died out.

[Sean]

Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Harder to keep a language alive if it's not in writing. It does also say something that's seemingly at odds with what we read from the first document. By the end of the Third Age, the Sylvan tongues had probably ceased to be spoken in the two regions that had importance at the time of the War of the Ring, Lorien and the realm of Thranduil in Northern Mirkwood. Whereas the earlier reading had said that not all of Thranduil's folk spoke Sindarin, which suggests that some of them spoke Sylvan.

[James]

What else would it be?

[Sean]

What else would it be? I mean, I don't think they're speaking Quenya.

[James]

Where would they pick that up?

[Sean]

They're all speaking Khzdul. I think it's most likely that we're talking about two, just slightly different time periods, because this quote here by the end of the Third Age. So it's talking about just the period around the time of the War of the Ring, so maybe.

[James]

So it died out in Lorien first.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[James]

Lorien, it spoke entirely.

[Sean]

Yeah. By the time.

[James]

But Thranduil's folks, some of them still spoke silver, except by the end of the Third Age, that was no longer the case.

[Sean]

Yeah, yeah. So the second document that Christopher quotes, by the way, is given much more fully in Part 3, Chapter 17 of the Nature of Middle Earth, if you want to go look for that. One notable thing included, there is a comment by Tolkien that in a thousand years, the unheeded change in the speech of the elves that remained on the hither shores, that is in Middle Earth, was no more than in two generations of men.

[James]

So I think that's really interesting. It gives us a sense of the rate of change of Elvish languages, because

[Sean]

two generations of men. If I think back to 50 years ago, a I was alive. I was actually talking because I was seven. The language wasn't that different.

[James]

Right. They might mean slight accent changes, obviously. Some words different. Yeah, yeah.

[Sean]

Some words are no longer as frequently used, and some new words have come in, but it's the same language. I'd have to go back 100, 150 years before I'd start to see really noticeable differences in sentence structure.

[James]

Yeah, well, it's like there's a few times where Tolkien deliberately uses a more archaic sense of a word. That can trip us up. Right. We have to kind of be told, as we often do in these episodes, point out this word doesn't mean what you might think it means, because Tolkien, writing maybe 70 years ago, was adopting a sense that was maybe going out of fashion even then.

[Sean]

Even then. That was a word that was because he was trying to make it archaic even then. And, of course, to us now, 75 years after the Lord of the Rings.

[James]

So that's the sort of level of change we're talking about in.

[Sean]

That's wild. So not much change over the course of a thousand years in an Elvish language.

[James]

Of course, that's not explaining. Just to be clear, we're not talking about the difference between Sindarin and Sylvan. We're talking about how much Sylvan itself would change.

[Sean]

Right, right. How much a given individual language.

[James]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. There's also mention of the. I thought this was interesting. There's mention of the loss of communication between Thranduil's folk and Lorien up to the point of the loss of Amroth being more than 500 years. So there was a period of time where communication was cut off between Thranduil and Lorien. And when Amroth was lost, that was 500 years. At least 500 years after that communication had been cut off.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[James]

So they were not talking to one another. Which sets up a situation for a lot of linguistic change. If two communities aren't talking to each other then they're going to slowly evolve differently in different directions.

[Sean]

Yes.

[James]

But it's interesting. We read in that time their Sylvan tongue would have suffered no perceptible changes. Because I guess if a thousand years is like two generations of men 500 years is presumably about one generation.

[Sean]

Oh, goodness, no.

[James]

So even though they were cut off for 500 years going back 25 years

[Sean]

or so to the new millennium the language wasn't any different, right?

[James]

Exactly.

[Sean]

We don't say Y2K anymore.

[James]

Exactly.

[Sean]

Oh, man. Wild stuff.

[James]

Okay. Yeah. Great little. Great Little Appendix. Yet another one of these etymological discussions.

[Sean]

I love that. Really. So much detail in these etymological discussions.

[James]

Anyway, let's move on to Appendix B, which continues a bit of history.

[Sean]

It does indeed. A long peace followed in which the numbers of the Silvan Elves grew again. But they were unquiet and anxious feeling the change of the world that the Third Age would bring. Men also were increasing in numbers and in power. The dominion of the Numenorean kings of Gondor was reaching out northwards towards the borders of Lorien and the Greenwood. The Free Men of the north, so called by the Elves because they were not under the rule of the Dunedain and had not, for the most part been subjected by Sauron or his servants were spreading southwards, mostly east of the Greenwood though some were establishing themselves in the eaves of the forest. And the grasslands of the vales of Anduin. More ominous were rumors from the further east. The Wild Men were restless, former servants and worshipers of Sauron. They were released now from his tyranny, but not from the evil and darkness that he had set in their hearts. Cruel wars raged among them, from which some were withdrawing westward with minds filled with hatred regarding all that dwelt in the west as enemies to be slain and plundered. But there was in Thranduil's heart a still deeper shadow. He had seen the horror of Mordor and could not forget it. If ever he looked south, its memory dimmed the light of the sun. And though he knew that it was now broken and deserted, and under the vigilance of the kings of Men, fear spoke in his heart that it was not conquered forever, it would arise again. Then Christopher introduces us to another passage that his father wrote around the same time, which says that around third age 1000, when the shadow fell upon Greenwood the Great, these Silvan elves ruled by the Sindar prince Thranduil pulled back, and that's where you switch back to Tolkien's words as it spread ever northward, until at last Thranduil established his realm in the northeast of the forest and delved there a fortress and great halls underground. Oropher was of Sindarin origin, and no doubt Thranduil, his son, was following the example of King Thingol long before in Doriath. Though his halls were not to be compared with Menegroth, he had not the arts, nor the wealth, nor the aid of the dwarves, and compared with the elves of Doriath, his Silvan folk were rude and rustic. Oropher had come among them with only a handful of Sindar, and they were soon merged with the Silvan elves, adopting their language and taking names of Silvan form and style. This they did deliberately, for they and other similar adventurers, forgotten in the legends or only briefly named, came from Doriath after its ruin, and had no desire to leave Middle Earth, nor to be merged with the other Sindar of Beleriand, dominated by the Noldorin exiles, for whom the folk of Doriath had no great love. They wished indeed to become Silvan folk and to return, as they said, to the simple life natural to the Elves before the invitation of the Valar had disturbed it. We'll get to that. And now we move to Christopher, who concludes Appendix B by saying, Nowhere, I believe, is it made clear how the adoption of the Silvan speech by the Sindarin rulers of the Silvanels of Mirkwood as described here is to be related to the statement that by the end of the Third Age, Silvan Elvish had ceased to be spoken in Thranduvil's realm. Yeah, that's going to be possible to reconcile.

[James]

Seems a bit of a contradiction. We'll get to that in a moment. So Appendix B is a lot longer than Appendix A, so we did have to skip quite a large portion. We'll cover the contents of it here. Of course, though it starts with Christopher pointing us to the line in the Tale of Years for the Second Age where we read that before the building of the barad dur. So second age 1000 many of the Sindar passed eastward and some established realms in the forests far away where their people were mostly Silvan elves.

[Sean]

Now we have talked a lot about this interesting mix of Sindar leaders of Silvan elves, and now we have an entire appendix about it with Christopher saying there's more history of this to be discovered in the professor's late Philological writings. Now once again, more late philological or etymological stuff. Right. The bulk of those writings are of course reproduced here, but the context and a little bit more more can be found in Nature of Middle Earth, the chapter on Sylvan Elves and Sylvan Elvish. But in the meantime, the Late Philological writings was a six page typescript dated in 1968.

[James]

And here in the part we skipped, we learned a lot more about Thrandua's realm in the North. It originally included the forest around the Lonely Mountain itself, as well as the western shores of Long Lake. After the dwarves fled Moria and built Erebor and the dragon came, the realm shrank to what we know of it in the Hobbit. And here we learn that the people of Thranduil's realm had come from the south and were in fact both kin and neighbours of the elves in Lorien. But they're the ones who'd lived on the eastern shore of the Anduin in Greenwood the Great, near what would become Dol Guldur.

[Sean]

Now, of course, it wasn't always Thranduil's realm. It once belonged to his father, Oropher. And we get in this part that we skipped the story behind their northern mig. And the text says that there are two big reasons. One, the power and encroachments of the dwarves of Moria. This has to feel kind of unfortunate. They leave the southern part of Mirkwood to escape the dwarves, only to have those same Dwarves escape to the lower mountains.

[James]

They had the same idea. Yeah, exactly.

[Sean]

Like, man, we moved just to get away from you. And now you're back. Second though, and this one I found much more surprising. Oropher resented the intrusions of Celeborn and Galadriel into Lorien.

[James]

Ah.

[Sean]

I think it comes down to what we read at the end about how this group of Sindar Oropher came in with some Sindar. They wanted to be more Sylvan. Like they didn't want to raise the Sylvan Elves to the level of the Sindar. They wanted themselves to go back to nature and become more Sylvan. Whereas seems to me like Galadriel and Celeborn are more about elevating the Sylvan.

[James]

Yes.

[Sean]

Up to a higher level.

[James]

Yeah.

[Sean]

Especially because Galadriel is a Noldo. So it's even more.

[James]

Right. Even more. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sean]

That's just interesting though, that that's right up there with the dwarves. This oriver's kind of hard to please. It sounds like kind of one of these grumpy neighbors who lives down like a two mile driveway and you know, has the 1700 no trespassing signs around his fence.

[James]

Yeah, he's. He's unhappy with the dwarves and he's even more unhappy with. With Celeborn and Galadriel.

[Sean]

You'd think they would make good neighbors.

[James]

Yeah, I don't know. Apparently not. Apparently. Anyway, a footnote in the disaster of Gladden Fields tells us more. Orpha had been disturbed by rumors of the rising power of Sauron. And so he and his people left their ancient dwellings about Amonlight across the river from their kin in Lorien, Amon Lanc being the hill that we now know of as Dol Guldur.

[Sean]

So he ends up moving north three different times so that by the end of the Second Age, step by step, he dwelt in the western glens of the Amenduir. And his numerous people lived and roamed in the woods and vales westward as far as Anduin, north of the ancient

[James]

dwarf road and Imindwyr is Dark Mountains. And Christopher explains this name isn't found anywhere else. Neither is their name after the spread of the Shadow. Imin Nufwin. The mountains of Mirkwood. Literally the mountains of Glim.

[Sean]

I think we do see mountains of Mirkwood, but we never see them named as Emy Nufuin.

[James]

Emyn. Yeah. Still, while he's no fan of the Dwarves or Galadriel and Celeborn, there's no real danger in the area and he stays in regular contact with the people of Lorien. Until the Last Alliance.

[Sean]

That's right. That period of time where they're not in communication is later, in the Third Age. Speaking of the Last alliance, though, Oropher might be an isolationist, but he's not a complete idiot. We read that even though the Sylvan Elves don't want to meddle in the affairs of the Noldar and Sindar or of any other peoples, he did foresee that peace simply was not possible unless Sauron was defeated.

[James]

Yeah. So he pulls together a pretty large army of his folk, joins with Mulgalad and his people from Lorien, or Amdir, Amroth's father, as the case may be. And it's Oropher that leads the Silvan Elves to battle. And they're tough, brave, but they don't have the armor or weapons that the Sindaril and Noldor have.

[Sean]

That comes back to what we've talked about before, that having experience in the Beleriandic wars really, really helps the leaders who have experienced. I mean, like, Galadriel is going to be able to say, no, no, no, we need to have this kind of weapon. This is how they. This is what we. We got to be prepared with this equipment.

[James]

Right.

[Sean]

It does feel like, yeah, you're bringing a big army, but you're bringing a knife to a gunfight.

[James]

You're not.

[Sean]

You're just not prepared.

[James]

Exactly.

[Sean]

Yeah. And you combine that lack of preparedness with the lack of willingness to serve under the High Command. Because the entire army, the Elvish army of the Last alliance, is under Gil Galad's supreme command. And they won't do that. There'll be an allied detachment, but they're not going to serve under his orders. And that results in just these massive losses. I mean, they would have lost some troops no matter what. I think every. Every force would have, but the text says more than they would have been otherwise.

[James]

Yeah. Malka Lad loses more than half his people and himself is killed. Oropher is killed almost immediately. Charging in before. I mean, it sounds so.

[Sean]

It sounds brave, but not very bright.

[James]

Yeah. Yeah. And so many of his people died that when Thranduil led them back home, it was barely a third of the army.

[Sean]

So we're talking like a 65% casualty rate for Orophores people and something slightly above the 50% rate for the folk of Lorien. That's bad. That's a lot to lose two thirds of your people, or even to lose, you know, more than half.

[James]

Yeah.

[Sean]

Both these kingdoms just. Well, I almost used the word decimated, but that would mean they'd only lost 10%.

[James]

Exactly. There were a lot more than decimated. They were.

[Sean]

Participated. I have no idea how to. How to word that. But yes, they were definitely crushed. And it's gonna have long lasting repercussions through both kingdoms, you'd think.

[James]

Yeah, for sure. The last portion we skipped was Christopher's editorial notes that we talked about before regarding Margallad and Amdir and why we can read the two essentially interchangeably.

[Sean]

They're the same. Corporate wants to tell the difference between these two elephant rulers. They're the same ruler. Oh, man.

[James]

Picking up where we read, though, we find ourselves with the Sylvan Elves at the start of the Third Age and at a time of peace.

[Sean]

Peace, yes, but also unquiet and anxious. But not because of Sauron, but because they saw the rise in Men. Gondor is growing. They're approaching the borders of both Lorien and the Greenwood. And then, interestingly, who the text calls here, the Free Men of the North. They were also on the move heading south down the eastern side of Greenwood the Great as well as on the western side in the Vales of Anduin. These folk, of course, are the Northmen many of whom would later become the Eotheod and eventually the Rohirrim. That's who these are. And the Men of Laketown and you know, Dale, the Woodmen that we also read about. These would be descended from these Northmen.

[James]

But it's the news from the east that's more of a problem. The Wild Men, in other words, the Men of Darkness, Easterlings etc are stirring up trouble. These weren't just groups of men that were lawless or bandits. These were former servants and worshipers of Sauron.

[Sean]

Yeah, and that sort of influence doesn't wear off right away. So wars are happening. They're cruel wars. And so many of these people are being driven westward and everybody in the west they view as an enemy.

[James]

Thranduil isn't just concerned with the Easterlings and the growth of Men. He'd seen the horror of Mordor when he was on the de Gaulad and watched two thirds of his army, including his father the king, be slain. So it's heavy on his heart when he looks south that the sun appears dimmer to him. He foresees that the darkness will rise up once more.

[Sean]

That's right. And I'm reminded, you know, I've criticized the Hobbit films pretty frequently. I'm reminded of that sort of moment where he sort of reveals his face as being scared. I don't buy that, but this sort of calls to that moment.

[James]

The sentiment.

[Sean]

The sentiment.

[James]

The sentiment is the idea that I

[Sean]

have seen a lot more than you can imagine in terms of death and destruction. I mean, to have been there at the Battle of the Last alliance, and to see two thirds of your people, people including your father, killed would be a traumatic experience for him for sure. So sure enough, though, a thousand years later, he's not wrong. The darkness rises once more, and it falls on Greenwood. That's when it becomes known as Mirkwood. And the Necromancer takes up residency in Dol Guldur. And this leads Thranduil to pull his people back further north, finally settling his realm only in the northeast corner of the forest. And that's when he builds the underground halls. After the examination example of Doriath under Thingol.

[James]

Yeah, and we'll actually touch a little bit on this in the Malbag question today about that sort of connection in Tolkien's mind between the Elf King and Thingol. But we're told here that his halls are a disappointment compared to the Thousand Caves. He didn't have the skills, he didn't have the money, and he didn't have the Dwarves.

[Sean]

Yeah, that's. Sorry, Thranduil. Your halls just aren't that great. But not only did he lack the resources, his people were a step lower, if you want to use that term. You remember that Thingol is a Sindar, leader of Sindar elves, and that he was a Kaliquendi. Now, here, Thranduil may be a Sindar leader, but not only is he Moriquendi, his people aren't Sindar. They're Silvan. The text says specifically rude and rustic.

[James]

Plus, he's not married to him.

[Sean]

Well, he's not married to Maia. Yeah, they'll do it every time.

[James]

In the past, when Aropher first led this realm, he only brought a few Sindar with him. So their merger with the Silvan elves was quick and the Sindar influence lessened. They took on the language of the Silvan Elves and even used Silvan names.

[Sean]

And they did this on purpose. They had escaped from Doriath when it fell. They didn't want to go back. And this is the interesting part, they didn't want to be connected to the other Beleriandic Elves. Elves, the Sindar were, as the text here says, dominated by the Noldoran exiles. And we know how the people of Doriath feel about the Noldor. So they just wanted nothing to do with this at all?

[James]

Yeah. In fact, we learned they wanted to become Sylvan folk, to devolve, as it were, and live the simple life natural to the elves.

[Sean]

Okay, fine. You want to return to simplicity and I get that. I'm curious, what do you make though of. Of this idea that they wanted to go back not just to the simple life, but to a life before the invitation of the Valar? The way that phrase makes me feel like it's not so much that they want to be Sylvan, they almost want to go back to. I was going to say Avari, but like pre Avari, Eldar split. Like really primitive.

[James]

Yeah. Like what? Yeah, back to Qui Van, back to the lake.

[Sean]

Yeah. That's interesting. What, what would that be like? What's the difference between before that first split where you get Avari and Eldar, and the split where the Sylvan. Because we look at where everything happens, right? The Sylvan elves are the ones that broke off the Nandor, like those who.

[James]

The first to break off. Yeah, that started, but. Broke off.

[Sean]

They started. They began the journey and then they saw the mountains. They're like, nah, we're fine here. And they went down the Vales of Anduin. Okay, well.

[James]

Well, it's interesting. So from their point of view, if you didn't make it all the way to Valinor, then in a sense the journey was for naught.

[Sean]

Yeah, right.

[James]

What did, what did you actually, you may as well have stayed in. I wonder if there's a sense in which. Why did we ever leave? Obviously if you made it all the way there, you'd be kind of like,

[Sean]

okay, now I get it.

[James]

Right, I understand now I get it. But if you never made it that far, you may have always been wondering, was it worth it?

[Sean]

That's a good point. Yeah. We had a good life before.

[James]

Yeah, well, except. Did they? Because we've got Morgoth stealing them away. And I mean, there's all sorts of things potentially going on with the. The Avari that stayed.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[James]

Being captured by Morgoth and. And tortured and so on.

[Sean]

So.

[James]

But maybe that was in part because the Valar had. I'm trying to think whether. No, no. Morgoth was doing things even before Oramer showed up because that was the whole reason that more stars were put in the sky to why they were all

[Sean]

afraid of Oribe when he showed up.

[James]

Right, that's true. So it's interesting, maybe there's a little bit of rose colored glass if they're

[Sean]

thinking maybe that's not such a great time.

[James]

Yeah, I don't know. It's interesting, though. It is really interesting. Finally, we return to Christopher's editorial notes to finish Appendix B. He indicates that there's no explanation for how. Why we go from the Sindarin rulers of the Silvan elves of Mirkwood adopting the Silvan speech to the fact that Sylvan Elvish is no longer spoken in Thranduil's realm by the end of the Third Age.

[Sean]

Yeah, I don't know if there is a possible way to reconcile that. Like Christopher says, there's just no way that we can go from this version where Sylvan is no longer spoken to this version where they are still speaking. It. It's one or the other. These are not reconcilable.

[James]

The only thing I can imagine, and this doesn't really make sense, if Thranduil all of a sudden insisted on speaking Sindarin in his household. And then that explains why we get the bit about Sindarin's house spoke. Sorry, Thranduil's house spoke Sindarin, but not all his folk did. And then we get the. I don't know. It seems to me a different direction that Tolkien was going.

[Sean]

Well, Barlaman's Pub was not to be compared with Menegroth. He had not the arts, nor the wealth, nor the aid of the dwarves. And compared with, well, everyone, his Bree folk were rude and rustic. James, what does Barlaman have in his bag for us today?

[James]

Well, we have one that's relevant to the discussion we were just having. Joseph from Missouri writes, you've said in the past and in fact just recently, that the Elven king in the Hobbit was basically thingol. Can you elaborate?

[Sean]

Yeah, I mean, there are a couple of things that come to mind. One is, of course, the description of his place in the Book of Lost Tales. We read of Menegroth. His halls were builded in a deep cavern of great size, and they were nonetheless a kingly and a fair abode. This cavern was in the heart of the mighty forest of Artanor, that is the mightiest of forests. And a stream ran before its doors, but none could enter that portal, save across the stream. And a bridge spanned it, narrow and well guarded. Okay, what do you make of that so far? I mean, that's sounding.

[James]

Remember that. And now read the description from the Hobbit.

[Sean]

Suddenly the torches stopped and the Hobbit had just time to catch them up before they began to cross the bridge. This was the bridge that led across the river to the king's doors. The water flowed dark and swift and strong beneath. And at the far end were gates before the mouth of a huge cave that ran into the side of a steep slope covered with trees. There the great beaches came right down to the bank till their feet were in the stream. Okay, pretty similar.

[James]

So this idea of a cave with a bridge across a stream going into it.

[Sean]

Yes.

[James]

And in fact, if you look at the drawing in the Hobbit that Tolkien did of the Elven King's King Gate, you can read the Book of Lost Towers description.

[Sean]

It is very much that.

[James]

And look at that drawing and go. That could be describing the entrance to Menacra. Exactly. But I think even stronger is this. In the Hobbit we read in ancient days, they had had wars with some of the Dwarves whom they accused of stealing their treasure. It is only fair to say that the Dwarves gave a different account and said that they only took what was their due, for the Elf King had bargained with them to shape his raw gold and silver and had afterwards refused to give them their pay. Sound familiar? It does in the sketch of the mythology. So one thing to remember is, of course, the Hobbit was written in the early 1930s, so we can't really look at the published Silmarillion. We really need to look at the Book of Lost Tales and in this case, the sketch of the mythology that was written in 1926, where we read, he summons the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost to come and fashion it into beautiful things and to make a necklace of great wonder whereon the Silmaril shall hang. The Dwarves plot treachery and Thingol, bitter with the curse of the gold, denies them their reward. After their smithing, they are driven away without payment. So it's exactly the same story. Right. The Dwarves make something on behalf of the Elves. The Elves refuse to pay. And that.

[Sean]

That's.

[James]

That causes a problem. Yes, it does.

[Sean]

And then in letter 257 to Christopher Breton, written in July of 1964, Tolkien explains that by the time the Hobbit appeared, 1937, this matter of the Elder Days was in coherent form. The Hobbit was not intended to have anything to do with it. It had no necessary connection with the mythology, but naturally became attracted towards this dominant construction in my mind, causing the tale to become larger and more heroic as it proceeded. Even so, it could really stand quite apart, except for the references. Unnecessary, though they give an impression of historical depth to the fall of Gondolin, the branches of the Elfkin and the quarrel of King Thingol. Luthien's father with the Dwarves.

[James]

Yeah. So I think that that clinches it. I'm talking clearly intended to be a reference to King Thingol's quarrel with the Dwarves and brought that into the Hobbit. So that's what we're talking about when we talk about the Elven King in the Hobbit essentially being a reference to Thingol. Obviously, he can't historically be.

[Sean]

No, he can't be Thingol.

[James]

Thingol, once you bring the Hobbit into.

[Sean]

Correct. But it's just. It's the same thing like with the Arkenstone. The Arkenstone is not a silmaril, but it's very much a silmaril.

[James]

Right. It rhymes. It doesn't repeat exactly.

[Sean]

Because, you know, the Arkenstone going back to the word nerdery there, it's Eorknenstein would be the version of it in Old English if it were a word that. That had carried on from is a word in Old English that would have become Arkenstone today if we still had the word. And it means sacred stone. It's very much a silmaril, but it's not the silmaril. Actually, there is a paragraph from John Ratliff's History of the Hobbit that I thought would be another little thing to reference here.

[James]

Yeah, go for it.

[Sean]

I had to dig back into my archives. I'm like, I know we talked about this. Sean and I talked a little bit about this in episode 71 in season two of the Lord of the podcast when we were doing the Hobbit, when we were talking about Thingol and we did some digging in the History of the Hobbit. He says, in the end, it seems clear that when Tolkien wrote the Hobbit, he drew on the old story, which was, after all, unpublished and likely to remain so, changing it as he did so to make the material more suited to his new purpose. But he left his options open as to whether the Elven King was a new character or an old familiar character appearing in a new story, slightly altered to fit his new surroundings. In time, he decided that the Elven King was indeed a new character and gave him a name and sketchy history of his own. But this decision post dated the publication of the Hobbit probably by more than a decade. And he never went back and rewrote the key passage in the Hobbit to distinguish what was now the analog from the original. Thus, to this day, we're left with two contradictory accounts of which Elvin King was responsible for provoking the elf Dwarf war, the one in the Silmarillion tradition and the other within the Hobbit. And that's such a great way of putting it that, you know, he did. He did this after he'd written the Hobbit. And so therefore, you know, he this analog in the original idea, you know. So of course we have these two contradictory accounts. Just very fascinating stuff. But yeah, that's what we mean by thingol. Or that thingol inspired the idea of the Elven King. He sort of is away. A shadow of him.

[James]

Yeah, yeah, Good stuff.

[Sean]

Well, folks, thank you for joining us for another episode of the Prancing Pony podcast. Please join us again next week when good fences make for good neighbors. Unless you make the fence out of your neighbor. That would be a problem because that's what we're talking about here is the border between.

[James]

I was going to say, yeah, good, good fences make for good neighbors, but good neighbors don't necessarily make good fences. Is that what you're saying?

[Sean]

Oh, man, that's terrible. I knew that post when he was young.

[James]

Oh, dear.

[Sean]

I'll stop now.

[James]

That sounds like some reveal in Doctor who.

[Sean]

It does, doesn't it?

[James]

Turns out the fence was made by. It's got faces in the. In the.

[Sean]

Oh, like the trees in the. In the Rings of Power in the forest with all the elves carved in the trees.

[James]

Yeah.

[Sean]

You could have ents carved in the fence posts, but they'd actually be ents.

[James]

Okay, Alan and I want to thank the members of team PPP editor Jordan Reynolds Barlum and Becca Davis, Social media manager Casey Hilsey, evented Patreon, community coordinator Katie McKenna, graphic artist Megan Collins, video editor Yonatan Lazens and website guru Phil Dane.

[Sean]

And please take a minute to check out the prancingponypodcast.com that's where you'll find show notes, outtakes, Prancing Pony ponderings, and our fully revamped PPP merch store. Store where you can get all sorts of cool merch, all featuring the incredible chapter art that Megan's been doing for us for three plus seasons.

[James]

We're all about the books here at the Prancing Pony Podcast, so be sure to also visit our library page. We try to make sure that any book we've mentioned on the show is linked there for you to purchase. We do get a small amount of compensation when you make your purchase, so thank you for that.

[Sean]

And we also want to thank our patrons at the Cairdance contribution tier. I'll start with Demay in Alaska, Chad in Texas, Lance in New Jersey, Joseph in Michigan, Kathy from North Carolina, Brian in the uk, Jerry from Washington, Irwin from the Netherlands, Ben in Minnesota, Anthony in Texas, Zaksu in Illinois, Joshua in Massachusetts, Lucy in Texas, Erica in Texas, James in Massachusetts and Ann in Kentucky.

[James]

There's also Sean in New Jersey, Mason in California, Maureen from Massachusetts, Olivia in London, Robin in Arizona, Nick in Wisconsin, Lewis in South Carolina, Thomas in Germany, Craig in California, Kevin in Massachusetts, Joe in Maryland, D Scott in California, Jeffrey in Michigan, Paul in Colorado, David from Connecticut and Teresa from Texas. Thank you all so very much for your support indeed.

[Sean]

Thank you.

[James]

Now make sure you don't miss any episodes of the Prancing Pony podcast. Subscribe now through Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or your favorite podcast app.

[Sean]

One last thing. As always, don't forget to send your thoughts, comments, and most of all, what really happened with the second elessar to [e-mail] Barleyman does have a lot of

[James]

mail to sort through though, so we'll try to get to you just as soon as we're able.

[Sean]

As always, this has been far too short a time to spend among such excellent and admirable listeners, but until next

[James]

time, may you reconnect or Hearts in a world that Grows Chill.

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[James]

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