408 – Questions After Nightfall 34

Summary

The Prancing Pony Podcast: Episode 408 – Questions After Nightfall 34

Date: April 12, 2026
Hosts: Alan Sisto & Matt (Nerd of the Rings)
Format: Listener Q&A (Patreon patrons join for live questions)
Main Theme: Deep-dive Tolkien legendarium Q&A, covering lore, adaptation, mythic inspirations, the future of the fandom, and more, with humor and camaraderie.

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Episode Overview

This 34th quarterly "Questions After Nightfall" episode invites several patron listeners to the Prancing Pony’s virtual “common room” for live lore Q&A with Alan and Matt. Listeners bring thoughtful, sometimes challenging queries that range from the fate of mortals in Valinor and Tolkien’s mythic inspirations, to musings on the future of fandom, the nature of wizards’ staffs, and even high school superlatives for the Council of Elrond.

As always, the tone is a mix of passionate deep-lore discussion, self-aware humor, and warm community spirit, with memorable moments and friendly jabs throughout.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Mortals in Valinor: What Happens to Frodo, Bilbo, Sam, and Gimli?

Start: [05:36]
Arthur’s Question: Do Tolkien’s texts provide concrete information on what happens to mortals who travel to Valinor? Do they “wither in the light” or live on—possibly immortalized?

• Alan:

  • Distinguishes Tuor (made an “honorary elf” via Eru’s intervention) from others.
  • Points to canon (Morgoth’s Ring): mortals who attempt Valinor “wither like a moth in a flame too bright” ([08:08]), but not due to punishment—their lifespans simply feel shorter in the timeless land.
  • On Frodo/Sam: “I hold out hope Frodo was still alive when Sam made it. There’s no clue, but it would still be within his normal hobbity lifetime. Bilbo though…desiccated corpse. Bilbo’s toast, folks.” ([10:53] — Alan)
  • On Ar-Pharazôn: More a “find out” stage of “fool around and find out” ([12:22]); a specific, cursed suspension of death rather than normal mortality.

• Notable Quote:
  “Their bodies are like—this is something that’s only going to be under the control of Eru Ilúvatar...I can’t imagine it’s a pleasant life in the dark of the caves of the forgotten.” ([13:04] — Alan)

2. Afterlife for Hobbits and Dwarves

Start: [14:34]
Erica’s Question: Does Tolkien mention afterlife for hobbits (“relatives of men”) or dwarves?

• Matt:
  • Reads from Prologue—Hobbits are relatives of Men, thus subject to the Gift of Death and true “free will.”
• Alan:
  • Dwarf afterlife: Dwarves say they go to Halls of Mandos, “set apart” for them—possibly poetic tradition more than canon ([16:10]).
  • Ambiguity is highlighted—“It makes it feel real, doesn’t it?” ([18:31])
  • Elves’ view: Dwarves “return to stone.” Dwarves claim they’ll help Aulë rebuild Arda after its end.
  • Real history parallel: “We don’t know. Wouldn’t we like to know that answer for ourselves as well?” ([19:54])

3. Mythological Inspirations for the Fate of the Silmarils

Start: [20:10]
Elizabeth’s Question: Any real-world mythology that inspired the fate of the Silmarils (placed in sky, earth, and sea)?

• Alan:
  • Points out links to Old English (“sigil” = jewel/sun) via Tom Shippey’s scholarship ([20:42]).
  • Highlights blend of influences: “Tolkien drew like, one aspect from one thing, one aspect from another.” ([22:57])
• Matt:
  • Notes sometimes Tolkien's inspiration was deeply subconscious: “There’s no guarantee that’s where it came from.” ([23:09])
• Conclusion:
  • Inspiration was likely a blend; no direct lineage to a single myth identified.

4. Tolkien’s Cultural Analogues for Minor Peoples (Dunlendings, Laketown, etc.)

Start: [25:19]
Neil’s Question: Are the “Men of Twilight” (Dunlendings, Lake-town, etc.) based on real-world cultures or language groups?

• Alan:

  • Lake-town folk: Northmen, Old Norse/Germanic analogues.
  • Dunlendings: Possibly language isolates (Basque, Finnish). Culturally akin to marginalized/colonized peoples—sidelined and “whose languages have been all but extinguished” ([30:23]).
  • Realist approach, avoids easy one-to-one mapping.

• Matt:

  • Laments lack of Dunlending dialogue—hard to make a firm comparison.

• Sympathy for Dunlendings:
  “When you realize what they've endured... you kind of have a little bit of sympathy for them.” ([32:39] — Alan)

5. Legendarium Weddings: Which Would You Attend?

Start: [32:44]
Chris’s (lighthearted) Question: Which Tolkien wedding would you most like to attend?

• Matt:
  • Shoots for grandeur: “I want to go to the big fancy one in Gondor”—Aragorn & Arwen ([34:55]).
• Alan:
  • “Sam and Rosie, for me, that’s...because of who they are. That’s a really good choice... they’re going to feed me better than anybody else.” ([34:07])
• Both:
  • Humorously consider disastrous weddings (Turin & Nienor, Hurin & Morwen—“the goggles, they do nothing!” ([36:24] — Alan))
• Call-out:
  • “Thingol and Melian. Talk about marrying up. I mean, you’re literally marrying an immortal being.” ([37:28] — Alan)

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6. The Future of Tolkien Fandom

Start: [41:55]
Graham’s Two-Part Question:
a) Will the “golden age” of Tolkien fandom and scholarship continue?
b) Centuries in the future, will Tolkien become a mythic “cultural text” known mainly through adaptations (like King Arthur/Robin Hood)? How does that feel?

• Short-Term:
  • Matt:
    • “Never have we been more connected to other fans across the globe…even just 20 years ago, you wouldn’t have what we do today.” ([44:06])
    • Quality of adaptations shapes spikes in fandom (e.g., Peter Jackson’s LOTR).
  • Alan:
    • “If you’re part of the fandom, you’re part of the fandom. However you come in.” ([45:14])
    • Glad when adaptations bring people to the books: “That makes me feel like I’ve won.” ([47:41])
• Long-Term:
  • Both:
    • As adaptations proliferate, more encounter Tolkien through films/TV first.
    • Expect public domain era to usher an explosion of interpretations/adaptations.
    • “500 years from now...everybody’s going to be coming to it through an adaptation of some kind. Even though they’ll hopefully read the books.” ([53:08] — Alan)
• On Fandom Polarization:
  • Arthur & Alan:
    • Reflect on toxic “political commentary disguising itself as fandom commentary” ([54:29]), especially around “Rings of Power.”
    • Matt:
      • In-person fan experiences are overwhelmingly positive; “the heart of the actual fandom.” Online conflict is often “statistical outliers”—not the real core. ([57:16])

7. Are Maia-Wizard Staffs Like Sauron’s Ring?

Start: [60:02]
Kosh’s Question: Is the relationship between a wizard and his staff like Sauron and the Ring? Is it a power conduit, symbol, or something else?

• Alan:
  • Staffs are “a symbol of authority,” not a vessel of power like the Ring. ([62:14])
  • Gandalf’s staff breaking on the Bridge is a function of an extreme spell—“an ultimate version of a spell...last ditch effort.” ([63:12])
• Matt:
  • Sees staff as a conduit/focus for Maiar power. Possibly, Gandalf’s spell overwhelmed the staff’s physical limits. ([65:11])
• Kosh (follow-up):
  • Wonders if Gandalf’s “laying down authority” (breaking staff) is key to his rebirth as the White—a self-sacrifice Eru rewards.
• Alan:
  • Cites Tolkien’s Letter 156: Gandalf’s sacrifice and humility meant “handing over to the Authority that ordained the rules...and that sacrifice was accepted and he was enhanced and returned.” ([68:54])
• Summation:
  • Wizard staff ≠ Ring. It’s about visible, recognized authority (especially among the Wise), not literal invested power.

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Notable Quote:

• “The staff here really does come down to that symbol of authority, because Gandalf was willing to surrender that to the Authority...I will do that. Not knowing what will come of that.” ([71:09] — Alan)

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8. Light Qs: Middle-earth as a Professional, and More

Start: [73:08]
Katie’s Question for Alan (photographer/lawyer) and Matt (videographer): Where in Middle-earth would you want your office/shoot your documentary or wedding?

• Alan:
  • Minas Tirith, for both law (constitutional work for Aragorn!) and architectural photography.
• Matt:
  • Not passionate about weddings; would shoot Sam & Rosie’s “farm wedding” if he had to.
  • For a doc: Rivendell—imagine interviewing Elrond, the ultimate “recurring expert” for all of Middle-earth history.

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9. Quick Round 2 Hits

A) Tuor as Elf-Friend?
Start: [81:38]
Arthur wonders why Tuor isn’t listed as an Elf-Friend by Elrond.

• Alan:
  • “If Tuor is counted as an elf, then he wouldn’t be counted as an elf friend. He’d be among the elves.” ([82:44])
  • The list isn’t exhaustive; some retcon issues may be involved.

B) Greatest Unsolved Mysteries Start: [85:14]
Graham asks: What Tolkien mystery would you most want answered with a lost manuscript?

• Matt:
  • “The Blue Wizards” (their fate in the East—failure or secret success?) ([85:43])
• Alan:
  • Story of Tuor in Gondolin (“from his arrival through the gates to their escape”), and the rest of the Lay of Leithian in verse.
• Both:
  • Also, the “Nameless Things” under Middle-earth ([88:41]), and Tal-Elmar finished.
• Matt:
  • On some mysteries: “Could you even come up with something better than the mystery as it’s left?”

C) Council of Elrond as High School Class Start: [90:58]
Elizabeth asks for high school “superlatives” for Council of Elrond attendees.

• Pippin: Class Clown
• Aragorn: Most Likely to Succeed
• Boromir: Prom King, Quarterback
• Legolas: Best Hair
• Gimli: Shortest Temper
• Elrohir & Elladan: Most likely to be ignored while everyone talks about their sister.

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D) Impact of the End of First Age on Men of the Twilight
Start: [93:23]
Neil: Did the end of the First Age, and the departure of noble men/western lands, diminish the cultures of Middle Men?

• Alan:
  • Combination effect: Less “evil influence” but also less elevating influence of the Edain/Númenóreans.
  • Example of Eriador’s Men: “If they were speaking their language and wearing their clothes, [Numenoreans] would have passed for them.” ([93:54])
  • Loss of elvish influence post-First Age, except some enclaves like Lindon.
  • The House of Haleth becomes isolated, eventually the Dunlendings.

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Notable Quotes

• “[Valinor for mortals]...would be a glorious few years, but...it’s going to feel even quicker because time seems to go so slowly there too.” ([09:41] — Alan)
• "You wanted immortality. Here it is, buddy. Enjoy your life trapped underground." ([13:35] — Matt)
• “I love the ambiguity...it makes it feel real, doesn’t it?” ([18:31] — Alan)
• “Never have we been more connected to other fans across the globe...Just looking at the Prancing Pony community...all around the world.” ([44:06] — Matt)
• “It doesn’t matter. If you’re part of the fandom, you’re part of the fandom.” ([47:41] — Alan)
• “Statistical outliers. They’re not representative of the fandom as a whole. They will go and find something else to be angry about some other time and leave us to enjoy Tolkien.” ([57:23] — Alan)

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Memorable Humor & Pub Banter

• Alan grills Matt on the age gap: “They’ll let you into the pub? Matt, I thought you had to be 21.” ([03:40])
• On wedding choices: “Kili and Tauriel, right?” “Sarcasm aside...” ([33:23])
• Wedding disasters: “Turin and Nienor...my eyes!...The goggles, they do nothing!” ([36:24])
• When discussing wizard upgrades: “Gandalf 2.0. Better than Gandalf XP or Gandalf Vista...” ([71:09])
• High school yearbook picks: “Gimli: Shortest temper. Well played, sir.” ([93:06])

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Timestamps of Important Segments

• [05:36] – First patron question (Arthur) — Mortals in Valinor
• [14:34] – Afterlife for hobbits/dwarves (Erica)
• [20:10] – Silmaril mythological inspiration (Elizabeth)
• [25:19] – Men of Twilight: real-world analogues (Neil)
• [32:44] – Which Tolkien wedding to attend? (Chris)
• [41:55] – Future of Tolkien fandom (Graham)
• [60:02] – Wizard staff and wizardly power (Kosh/Tom Hillman)
• [73:08] – Where you’d want to be a professional in Middle-earth (Katie)
• [81:38] – Tuor as Elf-friend (Arthur)
• [85:14] – Greatest unsolved mysteries (Graham)
• [90:58] – Council of Elrond superlatives (Elizabeth)
• [93:23] – The fate of Men at the end First Age (Neil)

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Episode Summary

This episode delivers everything that makes The Prancing Pony Podcast beloved in the Tolkien community: rigorous lore analysis, thoughtful speculation, real-world scholarship, playful community discussion, and the kind of jokes only true Tolkien nerds (and pub regulars) could make. Alan and Matt shine with their ability to make deep Tolkienian themes relatable, all while fielding challenging (and occasionally absurd) listener questions and never losing sight of the simple joy of being a fan among friends.

If you missed this episode, you missed an expert-level Tolkien hangout—come for the lore, stay for the laughter and camaraderie.

Transcript

[Alan Sisto]

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[Matt]

Mom, can you tell me a story?

[Katie]

Sure. Once upon a time, a mom needed a new car.

[Alan Sisto]

Was she brave?

[Katie]

She was tired mostly. But she went to Carvana.com and found a great car at a great price. No secret treasure map required.

[Matt]

Did you have to fight a dragon?

[Katie]

Nope. She bought it 100% online from her bed, actually.

[Matt]

Was it honey?

[Katie]

It was as unscary as car buying could be.

[Alan Sisto]

Did the car have a sunroof?

[Katie]

It did, actually.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay, good story.

[Katie]

Car buying. You'll want to tell stories about. Buy your car today on Carvana. Delivery fees may apply.

[Alan Sisto]

Good evening, little masters, and welcome to episode 408 of the Prancing Pony podcast, where we have recently bid a fond farewell to Galadriel Celeborn, Amroth Nimrodel, the first Elessar, and, well, James Tauber.

[Matt]

Looks like I've got some pretty big shoes to fill here. Coming in on this one, folks. Pull up a bench in the common room and join us. I'm Matt, the nerd of the rings, and I'm here with the man of the West, Alan Sisto.

[Alan Sisto]

Folks, it is that time again. You see, Matt has lost a piece of jewelry in the shire and wants to organize a search party. The only ones that showed up are wearing all black robes. But before we dive into the hunt for the ring next week, please help us welcome a few of our patrons to join us for our 34th quarterly questions after nightfall.

[Matt]

34th quarterly.

[Alan Sisto]

That's wild. I know, I'm doing the math on that, and it's kind of hard to believe.

[Matt]

I mean, I'm still recovering from episode 408, that is.

[Alan Sisto]

Or how about the 11th version of our Tolkien reading day episode that just came out. Yeah, man.

[Matt]

No matter whether you came to Middle Earth through the books, the films, the TV show, or something else, each of you is welcome here in our common room. The Prancing Pony podcast continues in our 10th season of Reading and talking our way through Middle Earth with conversations, digressions, and even speculations.

[Alan Sisto]

Not to mention a few puns and bad jokes here and there. And with Matt here, they'll probably be jokes at my expense, but at least double. Our purpose, though, is to dive deep into the lore to discuss the story, our favorite characters and themes, Tolkien's inspirations, and a whole lot more.

[Matt]

And while we take the work seriously, the same can't be said about ourselves. We're just a couple friends chatting at the pub. And we're glad you've joined us.

[Alan Sisto]

They'll let you into the pub. Matt, I thought you had to be 21.

[Matt]

Wow, I'm flattered. I'm flattered that. Because honestly, I'm in the mode where I get old jokes. I know plenty now, so I will take young jokes all day long.

[Alan Sisto]

That's fair. That's actually one of the ones that I should have used with Don. That. That's more should have done. Marshall Speed. Yeah. Well, folks, I'm sure you're going to be glad you joined as well, especially since tonight it isn't just the two of us chatting at the pub. Once a quarter, we take a break from our read through and welcome a few of our patrons to join us here in the common room and bring along some of their very best questions. Or at least we hope they're their very best questions. And once again, though, I am having to rely on the fact that we recorded this in the first quarter of 2026 to make you didn't decide to

[Matt]

just, you know, make me look silly on my first time back since last year.

[Alan Sisto]

That couldn't have played a role at all in my decision? No, not at all.

[Matt]

Oh, okay, folks, we have no idea what our listeners are going to ask us, so as we've done many times before, we're simply going to do our best job we can in answering their questions with whatever resources we have on our shelves.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. And as with previous questions after Nightfall episodes, aside from part possible edits for nervous coughs and time spent flipping through pages While we desperately look for an answer, we will be presenting this as it was recorded live. So everything you hear in this show will have been recorded in this session.

[Matt]

If you'd like to be one of the ones on this with us sometime, join the Fellowship of the [e-mail] prancingponypod questions after nightfall episodes are recorded once a quarter and patrons at the Elrond's Honorarium tier and higher are invited to join.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. It's just one of the ways we show our appreciation to those who support the show, giving them the opportunity to join us, make us laugh, make us think. And occasionally, or more than occasionally, lately it seems embarrass us. Now let's go ahead and get started. Matt, who is up first?

[Matt]

First up we have Arthur. Arthur, what you got for us?

[Alan Sisto]

Welcome back, Arthur.

[Arthur]

It's good to be back. Thank. Thank you for letting me in. Hello everybody.

[Alan Sisto]

You're welcome. It's our pleasure.

[Arthur]

I was thinking about something and maybe there's an easy answer. Maybe it's one of those speculation things we are told, or at least the Numenoreans were told. Oh no, no, no. If you come over here, you're going to burn up in the light. And then I thought about Tuor, who admittedly they said, okay, we'll make you an honorary elf. And then I thought about Earendil, who they made an honorary elf. He's still there. And then I think about Aripharazan and his buddies who got thrown into the basement, but they're still there and they're still alive, waiting for, depending on which version you read, whatever happens at the end. And people have speculated, oh, what happened to Bilbo and Frodo and Sam and Gimli? So it seems to me that up until the end of the Second Age, every mortal that we know about who went to Valinor, despite what the elves said, they all got immortalized one way or the other. The only mortals we know after the end of the Second Age who went to Valinor were three hobbits and a dwarf. Do we have anything in reasonable canon? And by that I mean not something to scrawled on a napkin somewhere that gives us concrete information that they withered in the light or whatever we want to say, or can we presume maybe they're still there?

[Alan Sisto]

Well, that is an interesting question because, I mean, you're right about the others, but the others have an exception. Tuor is actually the only one who doesn't really have an exception. He is a Mortal man who. The elves, it is said, have given him that. That status. But Matt, correct me if I'm wrong. For them to do that, Manwe would have had to consult Iluvatar himself. And Iluvatar would have then had to say, all right, I'll go ahead and withdraw the gift of death to men because Manwe himself couldn't undo that.

[Matt]

Right. And it actually reinforces that in the exact same myths Transformed is the section of Morgoth's ring where. Where it says wither even as a moth in a flame too bright.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

And later on it says how the. The Valar could not change the doom of man.

[Alan Sisto]

So that had to be an ERU call, right?

[Matt]

Yes, it would have had to been an ERU call.

[Alan Sisto]

But Earendel's a different story, isn't he? I mean, because Earendil, he's half elf.

[Matt]

He is, right?

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, Mandos has something to say about that, right? Like, well, neither can the Noldor come back either. You know, he's trying to. Trying to block him from getting in there. But, you know, they're given a choice and that choice is only available to him because he's half Elven. I mean, it's the same choice really, that Elrond and Elros get. It's just not made right then and there.

[Matt]

I wonder, because. So I was looking for the exact quote, like I said. I'll give you a little bit more of it here. It says, and they declared also that men would not there be blessed as they imagined, but accursed and would wither even as a moth in a flame too bright. And I wonder because it goes on to say how their lifespan would be the same even though their growth rate would not change. But no, their lifespan would be the same even though they would not get sick, essentially. They would have no illness or anything.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, it would be a glorious few years, but.

[Matt]

Right. Yes. I. I wonder if it's more on the fact that, you know, of just that, that they're still going to live short mortal lives and so they're going to wither quick compared to everything else

[Alan Sisto]

around them, it's going to feel even quicker because time seems to go so slowly there too. So to them it'll feel really fast.

[Matt]

Yeah. So sorry Bilbo fans out there, but.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, yeah, that's the thing.

[Matt]

I do hold a very short visit.

[Alan Sisto]

I hold out hope that Frodo was still alive when Sam made it. And I think for very good reason. I used to think, oh, no, he was probably dead by then burned like a moth in a flame too bright. But there was a thing that Tolkien wrote. Now I can't recall off the top of my head whether it was in a letter or in a volume of the history of Middle Earth where he said that Bilbo and Frodo. One of the reasons that Bilbo was going to Valinor was because he was who Frodo loved the most and that, you know, to be able to spend time with him in Valinor. And that made me think, well, who does Sam love the most? And it's Frodo. So I kind of landed on the idea. There's no clue in written notes whether or not Frodo was still alive when Sam got there, but it still would have been within his normal Hobbity lifetime. Yeah, Bilbo though. Desiccated corpse. I mean, Bilbo's toast, folks. By the time Sam gets there, he's gone. Sorry.

[Matt]

Yeah, definitely.

[Alan Sisto]

But that is a good question. He raises the question. Let's look at each of those exceptions. Right. Tuor. I do have to say Tuor is a some say. Plus we get this moment here in the Silmarillion in the War of Wrath, Earendil's arrival to Valinor. Nothing is said here about, you know, well, Tuor is here. We've already let that happen. There's no mention of Tuor other than the fact that Earendil, is he to our son of the line of Hador or is he the son of Idril, Turgon's daughter of the House of Finway? So to. Or let's assume he was. I think Tolkien writes that he was, but in a letter, but not in canon anything. So let's say he was exception. He's given this role. He's not really in Valinor either. He's part of the ship, part of the crew. He's stuck up in the atmosphere. He's not in Valinor. So now we look at the other exception. Ar Pharazon and his army buried in the caves of the forgotten until the end of Arda itself. That's less about a mortal expiring faster in the flames like a moth in the flame and more a find out stage of fool around and find out. Because this is a curse. They're mortal, but they're forced to live

[Matt]

forever in a cave oath breaker type situation.

[Alan Sisto]

Except even worse, at least the Oathbreakers were dead and were like spirits. This is awful. This is just misery. Thousands of years of a living hell for our Pharazon and his troops, they'll still die. But this is ERU withholding the gift of death and saying you get coal in your stocking one more year. Arthur, you wanted to say something? Following up.

[Arthur]

Yeah. We envision Tuor and maybe the Numenoreans after a few thousand years feeling, you know, stretch like butter scraped too thin on bread. And if they hang around long enough, would they wraith out? Would they lose their waters?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, their bodies are like. This is something that's only going to be under the control of ERU Iluvatar. And so there's nothing that the Valar are going to be able to do. They couldn't prevent death from coming to those guys. So that again, just like with Tuor, it would have had to been an ERU only decision. And we have nothing more other than the fact that they're being kept alive. I can't imagine it's a pleasant life in the dark of the caves of the forgotten.

[Matt]

Isn't there. Isn't there like kind of a poetic beauty to that?

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, there really is. You wanted immortality.

[Matt]

Yeah. You wanted immortality. Here it is, buddy. Enjoy your life trapped underground.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh man. Misery. Only to be brought out in time to die.

[Matt]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Because you're still going to die.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

And then you show up in the timeless halls and Edward goes, who are you again?

[Katie]

Right.

[Matt]

Oh yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

There's nothing that I'm aware of in any of the writings, including all the history of Middle Earth, that explicitly says and Frodo died on Tol eressea, you know, 20 years after Sam's arrival. And then Sam passed away the next year. Nothing. There's nothing specific like that. But they were mortal. And everything that Tolkien wrote suggests that mortal creatures would live the rest of their mortal lifespan. But it would seem to go really fast because of the way time moves in Valinor, so. All right, Matt, who is up next?

[Matt]

Next up we have Erica.

[Alan Sisto]

Erica, welcome back. Thank you. It's a pleasure to have you. And my question is.

[Matt]

Long line with Arthur.

[Alan Sisto]

Does Tolkien ever mention any other afterlife besides elves? Like, do hobbits you have afterlife? Well, we know that the hobbits are related to or a branch of men. And Matt, you've got the quote pulled up from the prologue, right?

[Matt]

Yes. The quote says, it is plain indeed that in spite of later estrangement, Hobbits are relatives of ours, far nearer to us than elves or even than dwarves.

[Alan Sisto]

All right, well so then they would be. They would. They basically get the same thing that men get. So they're going to get the death of the gift of death to men. So they are going to be mortal. This, of course, also means that they're bestowed with complete free will as opposed to sort of the limited free will that Elves have and how things go by. The music. That fits perfectly with what we know about the Hobbits and, you know, Frodo's choices in the quest for the Ring. So what does he say about other afterlives? The only other thing I can think of about the Dwarves is specifically that they get. There's nothing about what actually is. There's about what they claim.

[Matt]

Yes. What they claim and what Elves claim.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Elves claim they go back into the ground into the stone from which they're made. But the Dwarves say that they go to halls in Mandos set apart for Dwarves presumably with very low ceilings and that they are waiting there until the end to help Aule rebuild Arda.

[Matt]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Which is really an interesting idea because when Arda is remade the question is whether the elves are even around then. I mean, there's some questioning of that because their lives are tied to the life of Arda. So when Arda is ended and is then remade that's the whole thing about the elves have faded, right?

[Matt]

Yeah. But there is the second music. Like the idea of the second music.

[Alan Sisto]

That's true. The second music, in which case all of the races are involved. So. Yeah, so. So that's really all we get for the Dwarves is that they go to different area of Mandos.

[Matt]

I love that they're in a different area. It's like we don't want to be with the elves. Like, we have our own area.

[Alan Sisto]

Trust me, the elves don't want to be with them either. Can you imagine Feanor, what he'd think of the Dwarves? He didn't think much of his half brothers. He's not going to think much of Dwarves.

[Matt]

Oh, my gosh.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. I mean, you know, maybe a few of the craftsmen among them would gain a little bit of respect, but. Yeah. And with men, they go to Mandos as well, but it's just a stopping point. And then they get on the bus that says timeless halls. Arthur, you have something to say real quick?

[Arthur]

Just a quick thing about Feanor and the dwarves or one particular dwarf who maybe visits Mandos once a week and shows him those three hairs that he got. I got him. You didn't.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. You got unfriended. I got three hairs. So, yeah, in theory. And of course, this is the thing, we get a lot of the dwarves say this about their origins or about their afterlife or about a lot of things. I mean, we have to rely on the dwarves own words about things. So if what they say is true, then they get gathered in separate halls and they would not leave Arda until after they help remake it. But they're not elves, so. So they're not serially longeval. There's nothing mentioned about what happens to their Fayar after they die. Are they treated like men? Where they leave Ea and go where the elves know not? They certainly don't get new bodies.

[Matt]

No, definitely not.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. I think they have to. They help Aule, maybe they stick around. But we're not told anything about new Hroa.

[Matt]

Yeah. I love the ambiguity.

[Alan Sisto]

I do too. It makes it feel real, doesn't it?

[Matt]

Yes. All the sumsays. Because it's, it's such ancient history that it's like. I don't know, some people say this. I don't know if it's true.

[Alan Sisto]

It's also. It's not only just ancient, it's like multiple different people writing these histories.

[Matt]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

And so we don't really know. Elves have an agenda, you know.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

We see the same thing in the appendices. It feels like the stuff about Numenor written in the appendices is. I think James was talking about this written by like an Elendil apologist. Like there's nothing bad told about Numenor until you go and read the Akalabeth. You know, like you would not know that Numenor was for generations was a terrible place. You know, you wouldn't know about the human sacrifices and all of this.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Until you get into the Akalabeth.

[Matt]

Yeah. You get little hints like I. There's some stuff with our like tale of Aragorn, Arwen that Arwen says that that's true. You know, hints how she used to look down to, you know, on them and stuff. But yeah, I, I just, I, I love that we don't know for sure because it, it's, it makes it more rich and more fun to discuss honestly.

[Alan Sisto]

And more like a real history. Because we wouldn't know. We don't know. Right.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Wouldn't we like to know that answer for ourselves as well?

[Matt]

Right. Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

What exactly happens?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a good question though. I like that one, Eric. A good question. Thank you. All right, Matt, who is up next?

[Matt]

Next up we have Elizabeth.

[Alan Sisto]

Elizabeth, welcome back.

[Elizabeth]

Thank you. Thank you. It's been a Valenorian minute, so it's good to you all again. All right. Well, my question has to do with the Silmarils and the fate in Voyage of Arindel, where it says, and thus it came to pass that the Silmarils found their long homes, one in the Heirs of Heaven and one in the fires in the heart of the world and one in the deep waters.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes.

[Elizabeth]

Are you aware of, or know or is it written anywhere, any mythology that Tolkien might have been inspired by when he wrote that?

[Alan Sisto]

The idea of the three being separated and placed in each of the spheres of sort of nature, if you will. I don't know. One thing that does come to mind is kind of connected to some of the early versions of the Lord of the Rings, back when the names for the Haradrim were the Silharos and the Harwan, which are connected to Old English names for different groups of people from Africa, the Ethiopians were. I can't pronounce it Seagull something or other, but it has to do with sun. And Tom Shippy talks about that in the Road to Middle Earth that Tolkien's discussion of Sigilhe. I can't pronounce this at all. That Tolkien's discussion of this Old English word that if I try to pronounce it, y' all will laugh at me. He says that it helped to naturalize the Balrog and the traditions of the north and to create or corroborate the image of the Silmaril, that fusion of sun and jewel in physical form. And that's connected to the Old English translation of Silmaril which we find in the Book of Lost Tales, which actually is rendered phonetically as Sigil Merels, which contains sigil, a word that actually means both sun and jewel. So the name of it was originally based on the idea of it containing a word meaning both sun and jam or jewel. And Shippy mentioned that in Road to Middle Earth. That's really about all I have. There may be a connection to some Finnish mythology, but I need to get myself up to speed on that. I don't really know off the top of my head. There's. There's nothing that I can recall that I know, but I only know the bits and pieces of the Kalevala that connect to the story of Turin. So there. There may be something in that, but I'm not sure. There's just so much going on in those. And the thing about Tolkien and his works that is so amazing is he drew inspiration from so many things. It's often hard to pick just one, because he drew like, one aspect from one thing, one aspect from another. And you could say, well, it's not really inspired by anything, but it's got a little bit of this and a little bit of that and a little bit of this other thing. And that may be the case here, but Jewel and Son being part of the word. The original Old English translation of Silmaril might be the. The thing to start with, and it's

[Matt]

interesting, too, is like, even if you. If you could find something real world that sounds similar, like, there's no guarantee that that's something Tolkien pulled from. It's kind of like when you see a picture of a place and it's like, oh, look, this is clearly the inspiration for the Doors of Durin. And it's like, oh, Tolkien never went there, right? No, it's definitely not.

[Alan Sisto]

We're not going to be putting a blue plaque there. No. And that's the thing when it comes to these literary inspirations. He just blends so many things so perfectly. I mean, I like to talk about the Silmarils inspiring the Arkenstone, but what inspired the Silmarils, you know. All right, Elizabeth.

[Elizabeth]

Yeah, just kind of along that lines. I'm just wondering if maybe it was something he read somewhere that was only subconsciously in the back of his mind and it just came out and he just wasn't even consciously thinking about it.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that's quite possible. I mean, we know that the word Hobbit was actually in a piece that he would have read, but he doesn't ever recall saying, oh, I saw it there, you know, so it's quite possible that something like that stuck, going back to this idea of the Arkenstone being inspired by the Silmaril. Arkenstone is what the Old English word Eorknan Stan would have become in modern English had it survived into modern English. And Eorknanstan simply means holy or sacred stone, and you can certainly see why that's connected. But if you read the History of the Hobbit, you read that, you know, Tolkien was inspired by his homebrew mythology. Just like, you know, Thranduil, who's not named Thranduil, he's just the. The King of the Woodland Realm is very much thingol, but he's not thingol.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, it's the same kind of thing, but unfortunately, being inspired by his own works is one thing. Being inspired by something else is a little trickier to kind of track down. But, yeah, I'd have to look at maybe some other Finnish myths, maybe the The Mabna, whatever you call it that I can't pronounce the Welsh story, the Mapnagonian or whatever it is. It's like, don't ask me to pronounce that word. But, you know, there could be all sorts of other inspiration sources. All right, Matt, that was a tough one. We definitely got as close to stumped as possible. Maybe we have an easy one up next. Who's up next? No pressure.

[Matt]

Next up we have Neil.

[Alan Sisto]

Neil. Welcome back, sir.

[Neil]

Hello, Alan. Hello, Matt. I'm not sure if I'm going to have an easy one for you, but.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, no. Okay, do what you can.

[Neil]

I've really enjoyed the recent today's Tolkien time episodes on the Men of Middle Earth, especially the ones which dovetailed nicely with the recent PPP episodes on T elmar. The last include a lot of speculation, especially by PPP standards. So can I ask you please, to speculate on whether any of these lesser well known men of the Twilight could be based on primary world cultures, even though not specifically mentioned by Tolkien? For example, the professor does link Gondor with the Roman and classical Greek cultures. But what about, say, the Dunlendings or the Lake Towners?

[Alan Sisto]

Thank you, that's a very good question. The Lake Towners certainly descend. They're part of the same group of Northmen from which the Eotheod would eventually descend, the folks who would become the Rohirrim. So a northern group of people, you know. So we're talking about somebody in that Old Norse, Old Germanic language group, the Dunlendings. The Dunlendings were interesting because of course they're connected to the House of Haleth. They're kin to the Edain who became the House of Haleth, and as a result they didn't speak the language. And language is the thing that makes a people in so many ways, especially in Tolkien. So who would the Dunlendings connect to? I mean, I'm thinking of cultures that have essentially standalone languages. Languages that aren't Proto Indo European in origin. Matt, do you have anybody that you can think of off the top of your head?

[Matt]

No, actually I'm just thinking that's my least word, nerdery. All these. Yes. I'm not a word nerdery guy. Little peek behind the curtain. I'm just sitting here thinking that all these folks here that have joined us tonight conspired to just pick the toughest things. I'm pretty sure they've been working on this for weeks now.

[Alan Sisto]

They probably have. Those are some tough ones. Just a real Quick Google search provides a few that I knew. I know that Finnish is not related to a lot. It's related to Hungarian, but those languages don't connect to very many others. We also have the Basque language, which is a complete isolated language group like or language, I should say. It doesn't belong to any group. It's not related to any other known language. There are a few others that kind of are. Are not fully isolated, but somewhat isolated, like Georgian. But I don't think that any of those seem to inspire the Dunlendings. I mean, if anything, I see the Finnish inspiring maybe the folks of Forochel, but maybe that's my lotro player coming through because they named so many places in Finnish. It's like very clearly inspired by the Finnish language. But that would work as well because they are an isolated group of people in Middle Earth speaking a language in the far north that nobody else speaks. So that fits. But it's a speculation. Speculation on the Dunlendings is a tough one. What is interesting is when the Dunlendings became the Dunlendings, right when they were driven out of Enedwaith and Minhiriath by the deforestation of the Numenoreans in the Second Age. Some of them went to the foothills of the Misty Mountains. Those are the ones that became the Dunlendings. Others ended up moving north and becoming the Men of Bree. And it's interesting that the Men of Bree, though they are very much kind of ordinary people that we would see as maybe connected to different groups. They're connected to the Dunlendings. That's the same people group that they're descended from, though of course they speak Westeron, not the Dunlending language. I think we'd have some more clues if we had more Dunlending language in Lord of the Rings. But the fact that we get one word and one word only for Goyle does not help us much, I have to say, with the way they are represented in the world as a group of people who have been forced into their isolated land and they're sort of looked down upon by the people who. Who took their land.

[Matt]

Right?

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, the Rohirrim were the second group of people to victimize them by taking Kalinardon, where some of them did live. Gondor was like, yeah, whatever. They're just squatters. Get them out of here. This is your land now. You can think of a lot of, let's say, people groups who were colonized and then minimized in a way sidelined. If you Will, whose languages aren't spoken by other people? I don't know that I'm. I'm not sure who I'd. I'd want to try to analogize that to without offending.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Certain folks. So I'm just going to leave it at that. But you can think about people groups who have been sidelined and, and whose languages have been all but extinguished. And that would be an argument that could be made to parallel the Dunlendings.

[Matt]

It would help, yeah, if we met any, like, Dunlending characters, you know, and

[Alan Sisto]

got dialogue from them other than Freca and Wolf, who are like, literally the only characters we ever meet.

[Matt]

Right. And even what they say is very, like, there's not a lot to go on there.

[Alan Sisto]

No. Talk about your small sample size. And then, of course, we do get a little bit of an encounter with the Men of Dunland after the Battle of Helm's Deep, you know, where they got suckered by Saruman into believing that they would be burned alive by the. The Men of Rohan if they were captured. Things like that. But that's just the way that an autocratic leader lies to his. His people to get them to believe the BS that he's feeding them. Right. So of course they think that because that's what Saruman's told them. The Port done Lendings. They also listened to Sauron early on because Sauron was the only one opposing the, the Numenoreans, and the Numenoreans were destroying their land. So of course they, they teamed up with Sauron. Yeah, I don't know that I have anything on, like, an individual group that they would be based on because there's so many different elements. I mean, there's everything from them essentially being refugees multiple times to the language issue to the sort of. I hate using the word primitive. Let me put that in air quotes. But, you know, the, the Gondorians would certainly call them primitive. But as we saw in Tal Elmar, primitive is not always, you know, wrong. That doesn't make you the bad guy. Less advanced. Thank you, Neil. That's a very good way of putting it. And that's why I was trying to put air quotes around that, because it's not. It's not a statement of quality. Interesting question, though. And I'll tell you what, anything that gets you thinking about the Dunlendings is a good thing, because I think just a surface reading or a surface viewing of the Lord of the Rings, you don't think much about them. But when you realize, you know, what they've endured at the hands of Numenor and then of Gondor and of Rohan. You kind of have a little bit of sympathy for them. All right, Matt, who is up next?

[Matt]

Next up, we have Chris.

[Alan Sisto]

Chris, welcome. Thank you very much, guys. I didn't get the memo from the rest of the cast here on making hard on. Create a hard question.

[Matt]

Make it super hard.

[Alan Sisto]

Good. I've got a softball for you guys and hopefully hits this one harder than the one in the intro. As somebody who's a little bit closer to Pippin's age than Frodo's, my calendar has become quite overwhelmed with weddings of late. And it's had me thinking, which legendarium wedding would you guys most like to go to? And it doesn't have to be one that we see, actually. Oh, I like that. That's a. There's some good choices.

[Matt]

That's a good question. Clearly, it's Kili and Tauriel, right?

[Alan Sisto]

Well played, sir.

[Matt]

Or is it Elrond and Galadriel after last season of Rings of Power. That must be where that's going, right? Sarcasm aside here for.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, I am torn between two. I'm torn between two.

[Matt]

One of them. I'm guessing one of them is Aragorn and Arwen, right?

[Alan Sisto]

No. No, really, that's not one of them. My first choice was Faramir and Eowyn, but I think I'm actually going to want to attend Sam and Rosie's. I want to see a hobbit wedding, and they're going to feed me better than anybody else. So Sam and Rosie, for me, that's

[Matt]

okay because of who they are. That's a really good choice. I will say. I've been to enough country weddings. Being a Midwest guy, that's that. I could go without being to a Shire wedding. I want to go to the big fancy one in Gondor.

[Alan Sisto]

That's fair. Do you think that they're doing it, like. It like picnic tables in the backyard and it's. Oh, for sure. And they're just serving, like, potato salad and stuff because I don't. Maybe I don't want to do that.

[Matt]

Well, it's. It's cool now. I don't know if you know this, but it's like a cool thing now because I used to film. I used to be a wedding videographer, and it's a very cool thing now to get married in barns. Like.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Remodeled. Nice. You know? But they're. They smelly nice. Yeah, they're not smelly, but they're not like, fully you know, beautiful building. They're like in between.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Where it's like rustic cottagecore.

[Matt]

Yes, yes. All those things. All those things. So I've seen enough. I've seen enough country weddings. So I'm gonna say Aragorn and Arwen want to be at that big shindig in Minas Tirith.

[Alan Sisto]

That is the big shindig. I think back, I'm old enough to actually recall Prince Charles and Diana's wedding and that being televised and that being the same sort of like huge pomp and circumstance and the like, you know, 50 yard train that she had on her dress and all the people in their fancy costumes and things. I mean, I'd like to think that Aragorn and Arwin's marriage lasted a little longer, but. Yeah, I mean, that would be the proper wedding to go to for sure. But either Sam and Rosie or Faramir and Eowyn. And that's tough because Faramir is my favorite character.

[Matt]

So I keep thinking to other ones, like going further. And it's. And it's horrible. Like, the aftermath is horrible. It's like 2 rnid drill.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

And then. And then gone.

[Alan Sisto]

Dylan falls, Hoorain and Morwen. And then Hurin's like gone for 30 years.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Comes back just in time to see her die.

[Matt]

Or even. Even Baron and Luthien. It's like, oh, yeah, you guys finally got married. It's like there's a big freaking wolf tramping around. We got to go get it.

[Alan Sisto]

Katie pointed out in the chat, and she's absolutely right. Turin and Nianor. No, I don't want to go to that wedding. I know too much.

[Matt]

Oh, my gosh, my eyes.

[Alan Sisto]

The goggles. They do nothing.

[Matt]

Oh, man, your pictures from it would go viral, though.

[Alan Sisto]

They sure would.

[Matt]

By golly wow.

[Alan Sisto]

Don't they look alike? There are.

[Matt]

I mean, they say married couples start to look alike, but you guys really got a head start on it. Wow.

[Alan Sisto]

I thought that just meant they dress alike, but my goodness, the jawline, the nose. They could be. They could be twins. I'm sorry, that's terrible.

[Matt]

That's a great pick though, to pull that out and bring that up as a topic. Katie, that was fantastic.

[Alan Sisto]

Well played. Well played. That. My goodness. I mean, there's so many other weddings that you. I mean, like, because you did. The Children of Hurin, reading my mind, went to the Huron and MOR1. But you think of all those other, like, first stage couples, Thingol and Melian. That would have been an interesting wedding. Talk about marrying up. I mean, you're literally marrying an immortal being. Who's your wife? Well, she's an offspring of the thought of God himself, right? I mean, whoa.

[Matt]

And when did they actually get married? Like, yeah, how much of them just staring into each other's eyes for hundreds of years, like, is this is part of the ceremony?

[Alan Sisto]

It's like a little known elvish custom is that after 10 years of staring at each other, you're automatically murdered.

[Matt]

Like common law at that point, I guess.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, you know, the whole deal with elves is they're married when they do the deed. Whether they're married or not, they become married. So, yeah, I don't know that I want to see that wedding.

[Matt]

That's inappropriate, Alan.

[Alan Sisto]

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[Katie]

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[Alan Sisto]

Now. In just a minute we'll get back to more of our incredible listener questions. But before we do, I want to take a minute to thank the amazing community that has grown up around this show. I mean, after all, there is a lot more talk going on at the Prancing Pony Podcast than just us sort of mumbling our way through these answers.

[Matt]

The PPP really does have a warm and welcoming listener community. If you've got questions or just want to talk about how much you love Middle Earth, be sure to check out our common room on Facebook and across all social media. On Facebook, just look for the Prancing Pony Podcast. Yeah, there's a page, but you're going to want to join the group for that. Great fan community.

[Alan Sisto]

Indeed. And on every social media platform other than Facebook, we're simply Prancing Ponypod. You can also find our subreddit @r prancingponypod. And be sure to check out my Daily show, today's Tolkien Times on YouTube and all your favorite podcast apps. That's where you can get your daily Middle Earth fix with everything from Middle Earth Map Mondays to Silmarillion Saturdays. Be sure to watch or [e-mail] prancingponypod Matt, we still have a few questions left here in the first round, don't we?

[Matt]

We do. We've got Graham up next.

[Alan Sisto]

All right, Graham.

[Graham]

Okay, so this is a bit of a two parter and kind of a meta question, so to speak. So just bear with me here. In my view, we're currently in a kind of golden age of Tolkien scholarship and fandom. It's a well known and very lucrative ip. There are moots and conferences all over the world, running all the time. People are able to do graduate work in Tolkien studies and related fields. Today, the films and books remain as popular as ever. There are numerous online and real world Tolkien communities everywhere. The Tolkien Society is growing and so on. So is this going to continue in your view? And where do you see this community going in the next few years and then as a kind of second half or follow up and extending things a bit further out into the future? I sometimes imagine that in a few hundred years, Tolkien will occupy a cultural space that Robin Hood or King Arthur does today. In many ways a kind of foundational cultural text, but also one that everyone in our time approaches and enjoys via adaptation almost by necessity. So do you also imagine that this will someday be the case? And if so, how do you feel about people in the future mainly or exclusively enjoying Tolkien mediated via other hands and minds, as it were? Thanks.

[Alan Sisto]

Wow, that is a really interesting question, Matt. And I think you and I might be well poised to answer that, given our roles in the Tolkien community. So we've got sort of a two parter here with the short term future of the fandom and then the very, very long term future. The future we won't even be around to witness.

[Matt]

Yeah, this is a really great question. I've actually thought of this quite a bit, a fair amount. You know, looking to the, to like the short term.

[Alan Sisto]

The short term. Yeah. I haven't thought about the long term, but that my mind's already kind of running with that one.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, the. I, I do agree that, you know, we are in a really cool place in, in fandom because. And I think, you know, just in recent years, with our capabilities with online, like never have we been more connected to other fans across the globe and been able to connect with fellow Tolkien fans on the scale that we currently do.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean like Shakespeare fans in the late 1600s could not have what we have as Tolkien fans.

[Matt]

It's true. Yeah, you weren't likely to. You know, I mean, just looking at the Prancing Pony community and you know, you have, you have folks from the uk, you have folks from all across Europe, all across the world, like all around the world. Yeah. And that's something that, you know, even just 20 years ago, you wouldn't really have the way that we do today. No, you know, the movies I think did give us a big boom. You know those, the Peter Jackson films that came out 25 years ago.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, you're talking about the Lord of the Rings, not the Hobbit trilogy, right?

[Matt]

Correct. Yeah, yeah, because those were the ones 25 years ago.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. I just want to make sure we were talking about the good ones, not the other ones.

[Matt]

Well, your memories fade, and that's okay. I mean, even the Hobbit. Here's the thing that I've come to learn about adaptations. There is always going to be folks brought in by new adaptations. Like, no matter what we might think of certain ones, there's good people who have nostalgia for ones. And so that's why I never get terribly fussed about ones that I don't care for.

[Alan Sisto]

However you come into the fandom, you're in the fandom.

[Matt]

Yeah, you're in. But with us getting more adaptations, we're on the cusp of getting more seasons of tv. We're on the cusp of getting more movies, presumably more video games are on the way. You know, board games are more popular than ever, I would say. Yeah, we're getting more Lord of the Rings games every year right now than I think we ever have. So, yeah, I think the immediate. It could ebb and flow. It all depends on. On how good these things are. You know, I think. I think TV and film largely, you know, are the biggest movers and shakers of fandom. So, yeah, it kind of depends. Like, in the near term, yeah, hopefully we get some good ones. Because if we get some good ones, that's when it really lights a fire in the fandom. Like we saw with the Peter Jackson Lord of the Rings.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. With the Lord of the Rings. It brought the property, if you want to call it that. It brought Tolkien's works into the public consciousness in a way that had not happened since perhaps the 60s when. When the paperback edition hit in the US and it became, you know, widely popular. You get like, you know, Frodo Lives scrawled on the subway walls and things like that. You know, Gandalf for President. And even then, I'm sure at scale, it was nothing. With what we saw in 2001-2003, it became such a part of the. Of the popular mindset or such a part of the public mindset. I should say that even to somebody who's never read the books, who maybe even hasn't seen the films, still knows one does not simply walk into Mordor. They still know it is a gift, or they still know, or, you know, they still know that Aragorn broke his toe kicking that helmet. I mean, there's so much that is in the public awareness now that never was before. Now you can make the argument that sometimes those things are coming from adaptations and therefore they're not accurate. And that's true in a sense. But there are always going to be people who come to the fandom through the adaptations and then read the books. I've heard from people who are now listening to the Prancing Pony podcast and reading the books because they first watched a Rings of Power episode, then listened to the Rings of Power wrap up and were like, oh, I'll listen to the ppp. Oh, they're covering the Lord of the Rings. I guess I'll finally read the Lord of the Rings. How great is that, right?

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And what a privilege to be able to be a part of that. I mean, seriously, that is like a goal. Like, that makes me feel like I've won the fact that people are reading the books because that's what I'm always going to want people to do. But it doesn't matter. If you're part of the fandom, you're part of the fandom.

[Matt]

Yeah. I think we're both in the same boat when it comes to covering movies and TV shows and stuff. It's like, it's like we have our little Trojan horse where it's like, yeah, on the outside it looks like, oh yeah, we're just covering in the show. But on the inside it's like, but we're going to convert you to the.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. We're going to tell you the deep lore.

[Matt]

That's right.

[Alan Sisto]

Or as Aslan would call it, the Deep magic.

[Matt]

That's right. Yeah. I, I do think one, one of the things that's really stuck out to me is the staying power of Tolkien, both books. And like I said, when, when there's a, a top tier adaptation like Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings, you look at it being re released in theaters for the 25th anniversary and it's like it's charting above some new release films. It's like, like, and these are movies that, like, if you, like, you have access to these, you know, you practically

[Alan Sisto]

have to hide yourself in a cave to not see them.

[Matt]

Right? Yes. Like they're on, you know, whether it's on a streaming service. I mean, you have them on, you know, 4K or Blu Ray or DVD or all the above, maybe.

[Alan Sisto]

Or VHS if you're really.

[Matt]

Or vhs. Yeah, you could even have it on vhs. So, like, it, it's something special about those. I mean, going to see the soundtrack performed in concert to the movie is like another huge thing that's come up in recent years. Looking, looking even further, like, I guess this is kind of intermediate. Okay, so. So we've, we've talked about near future intermediate. I can't help but think, yes, we've got films and stuff coming from the Lord of the Rings, the appendices, that kind of stuff, and I think there's some exciting stuff there. But the behemoth waiting in the wings is the Silmarillion.

[Alan Sisto]

That is the behemoth.

[Matt]

When that happens, and I'm going to say when, because I think it's only a matter of time. I have no inside information on this.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, you could say it's a matter because it eventually will become public domain.

[Matt]

I mean, yes, eventually. I'm being more optimistic because I want to see it.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I know.

[Matt]

I, I want to see it adapted.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

I think at some point, you know, Lord of the Rings and Hobbit, before terribly long will go into public domain. And at that point it's going to be a question of, you know, if not before then. I think it'll actually happen before then.

[Alan Sisto]

If I had to guess, I think, I think so.

[Matt]

I just see the Silmarillion and I think that could be the next kind of high water mark for if it's done well, Middle Earth, if it's done well.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. And I think in a way, as we touch on the works becoming public domain, we're already laying the groundwork for the second half of that question, which is what happens hundreds of years from now? What does the Tolkien fandom look like in 500 years? Would it be.

[Matt]

It's crazy to think about it.

[Alan Sisto]

I know. It's so hard to consider that the way we look at something like Robin Hood or King Arthur, where we all know the legend, but every one of us gets the legend from some other source, none of us are looking at the original original. There might not even be a singular identifiable original, at least in this case. I hope that that stays identifiable. But I do think that as we move forward, more and more people, I mean, it's already been this way, Right. If you go back to 1956, how many people's first exposure to Tolkien was through an adaptation? The answer is almost none. I mean, yes, there was a BBC Radio adaptation that we don't have any existing recordings of that did come out, and maybe a few people listened to that before they read the books, but that's, that's like maybe less than 100 people. And then, so, but, but then you get to 77 and the Rankin Bass Hobbit and 78 and Bakshi's Lord of the Rings and 79 and the Rankin and Bass Return of the King and you think, okay, and then the 81 BBC radio adaptation.

[Matt]

I was gonna say, don't you neglect to mention.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, that's the gold standard of adaptations. Right?

[Matt]

It is.

[Alan Sisto]

And then I don't know what year it was. I think it was 83. That NPR did a. No, PBS did an American audio version of it.

[Matt]

Lord of the Rings.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Lord of the Rings. An audio drama. Radio drama.

[Matt]

BBC One's better.

[Alan Sisto]

BBC was much, much better. Yeah, yeah, No, I mean, that's. I was not going to miss the BBC one. I promise you, Matt, that is the gold standard of adaptations.

[Matt]

Shout out Brian Sibley.

[Alan Sisto]

Absolutely. Shout out Brian Sibley. So as you go through that period of time, 77 to 81, you have a massive flood of. Of adaptations that hit the market. And now people are coming to the fandom through adaptation. A large percentage, maybe not a majority, but a large percentage of people who would consider themselves Tolkien fans discovered it through those. Then it stays fairly the same until 2001. And now, far and away, the majority of people that have experienced Tolkien and come to Tolkien are discovering him through adaptation. Yes. They're still coming and reading the books because the adaptations are done so well. They're driving folks to the books. But I feel like that is the Future and in 500 years, of course, everybody's going to be coming to it through an adaptation of some kind. Even though they'll eventually, hopefully read the books.

[Matt]

Yeah. At least we don't have to worry about, like, going back to, like, only having spoken. Spoken accounts of it.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. It won't be, you know, it won't be like Beowulf where we have one manuscript.

[Katie]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

And we're trying to, you know. All right, Arthur, you've got something you want to jump in with?

[Arthur]

Yeah, I want to be as optimistic as you guys, I really do. But I also remember watching the very, very loud voices in the social media when Amazon first announced Rings of Power and before we even knew anything about it, there was hate.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes.

[Arthur]

And anybody who went to England to observe and advise was a paid off lackey.

[Alan Sisto]

Do you remember that, Matt? Are we still members of the shillmarillion Club?

[Matt]

I have no idea what. Yeah, no, I remember. Yeah. There's definitely a lot of knee jerk.

[Alan Sisto]

You make a good point, Arthur. That bad faith, I feel like that's more of a short term thing. That's More to the first half of the question, for sure, because we're in a period of time where fandom itself is an opportunity to show off how polarized you are. We're in a very polarized society in so many ways, and it feels like fandom is just another opportunity for people to show off how polarized they are.

[Matt]

I think there's a lot of political commentary disguising itself as fandom commentary.

[Alan Sisto]

There very much is. I mean, you look about what the complaints were about Rings of Power before it came out. We can complain about it now and talk about its writing and be. You know. And you and I have done exactly

[Matt]

that, which we've done. Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

So much so that Corey wouldn't even let us have the same segments.

[Matt]

That's right. Corey would not let us be on the same segment.

[Alan Sisto]

He would not let us both talk about the Hobbit, the Harfoot storyline, and the Room storyline. Wise man that Corey.

[Matt]

But it would have made a great episode, I think.

[Alan Sisto]

Absolutely.

[Matt]

It might have been the highest viewed out of all of them. I'm.

[Alan Sisto]

But I feel like it's like you said, there's a lot of political commentary disguising itself as criticism of the show. Because when you look back to Rings of Power, before we had anything to actually criticize the commentary in the social media spheres about Rings of Power was people griping about the fact that there were people of color cast as elves, or there was a shorter woman cast as an elf queen in her early years, or everything is critical of gender or race. It seemed that was what most of the ugliness was about. And that's the part I'm not optimistic about. Like, you know, like Arthur's saying, there's a real concern, like, what will happen to the fandom. Will the fandom itself be damaged? Yeah, but the property won't be. Right. I mean, that's the thing. I think at the end of the day, you still have the books and you still have the good adaptations, but that's all I have to say.

[Matt]

Yeah. I tend to be kind of an optimistic person, and maybe that's why I gel so well with these stories and everything, because I think there's brighter days ahead for fandom as a whole. But I will say I try not to. To look at online discourse and let that fully color my view on fandom, because, yeah, every time, without fail, when I go to a Comic Con or a Tolkien society like Oxenmood or something or. Or any kind of gathering of fandom, you know.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Obviously Tolkien is my primary one. But like even other fandoms, when I,

[Alan Sisto]

when I run into wars, Disney, Marvel Magic Gathering, 40K. Yeah.

[Matt]

Without fail.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Warhammer is another good one. Like without fail, I go there and it is just some of the best in person experience you could ask for.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes.

[Matt]

And that shows me more the heart of the actual fandom than what's trending on Twitter. And that is not even trending on Twitter.

[Alan Sisto]

No.

[Matt]

But like just getting attention, comments and stuff that it's like, for all I know, that's not even a real. I was gonna say commenting.

[Alan Sisto]

There's bots and statistical outliers. Yes. Like there are some people as we know because they, some of them have YouTube channels. But yeah, they're, they're statistical outliers. They're not representative of the fandom as a whole. They will go and find something else to be angry about some other time and leave us to enjoy Tolkien.

[Matt]

And half of it is like people just doing it for the purpose of the engagement bait and the rage bait. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

When I called them anger merchants, that was probably the most. Right. I've been about anything. I mean that's just what they sell. They sell fury because it sells.

[Matt]

Yeah. So I think that's part of our current ecosystem around fandom. But I, you know, I like to think that it will eventually fall to the wayside and you know, we'll, we'll look back on it and be like, oh man, aren't you glad we don't have to mess with this?

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. I think so too. All right. I, I am still pondering the 500 year picture. Like, what does that look like? I'm really excited about that. Like, I know I won't be here for that, thankfully, because I don't want to be like our Pharaoh's on Stuck in the Caves. They've gotten just to get there. But I love the idea of people coming to it from different, different experiences. You know, once it becomes in the public domain, what's going to happen? I mean, I am worried about the initial transition to public domain because it was the first thing that happened when Winnie the Pooh went into public domain. Horror movies. Horror slasher, right?

[Matt]

Yep.

[Alan Sisto]

I don't want to see.

[Matt]

I will say, like, there's like she loves layers. Pretty horror man.

[Alan Sisto]

Like, oh, I know a Tolkien writes

[Matt]

a short film just of, of Frodo and Sam going through she loves Lair be pretty legit.

[Alan Sisto]

I still to this day I know that Jackson had to cut all that stuff, but man, he would have done such a Wonderfully terrifying job. The barrow downs. I mean, just creepy. Beyond creepy. That would have been right in his wheelhouse too. So it made me sad that they didn't do that. But what's going to happen when it goes public domain? I am scared for that.

[Matt]

People will be reading this book on Mars by then.

[Alan Sisto]

That's the thing.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Or in some other, you know, Alpha Centauri. I mean, who knows where we'll where. Where mankind will be on the bridge of the USS Enterprise.

[Matt]

So. You lost me there.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Well, I know. It's because you're a Star wars fan, not a Star Trek fan. I'll forgive you. I'll forgive you. Who's up next?

[Matt]

Next up, we've got Kosh Koch. Is that not how you say it?

[Alan Sisto]

That is. No, that's how you say it. I just didn't know that we had a Vorlon here. Or don't. You might destroy an entire planet. Just ask me your question, Kosh.

[Kosh Koch]

Okay. I was thinking about this question. Is the relationship between the power of a wizard and his staff.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Kosh Koch]

Is it like the relationship between Sauron and the Ring is the power that's. That's in the staff? Does it belong to the wizard? And it's been kind of, you know, transferred in there so that he can focus it, you know, because, okay, he must have some kind of power still because obviously he survives that fall into the abyss.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah.

[Kosh Koch]

You know, and then, you know, at 3,000 years old chases a, you know, Balrog up. Up the Empire State Building.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Neil]

And.

[Kosh Koch]

But at least it was on the inside. And, you know, so I was just thinking about this and, you know, is it analogous. Does Gandalf survive it because he broke it willingly? You know, just as if Sauron unmade the Ring. I imagine he would survive. You know, he had the craft to make it. So presumably he has the craft to unmake it. And where does Saruman and his staff

[Alan Sisto]

being broken come in?

[Matt]

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Was the Saruman.

[Alan Sisto]

That's exactly what I was thinking. Was exactly Saruman and Gandalf breaking his staff. But there's a difference between breaking your own staff and breaking someone else's. That is a really good question. First of all, folks, if Kash's voice sounded a lot less like the guy from Babylon 5 and a lot more like Tom Hillman. That's correct. But that is a good question. Before we get to answer, Arthur already has something. It looks like maybe he already has the answer for us, sir.

[Arthur]

Well, I don't know if I have the answer. I may have an answer because I was thinking about Saruman's staff also and Gandalf broke his staff which I always presume was breaking the symbol of his authority. We didn't really see any change in Saruman after that. He still had his voice. He still was able to compel people. Not much really changed except maybe he had to lean on Wormtongue instead of his staff. So I'm not sure that the staff is anything more than a symbol of authority as opposed to I wield this.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. I will say I don't think that it is like the Ring in the sense that power from the wizard is inhabiting the staff, if you will. That Gandalf is somehow lesser because some of his energy is in the staff or resides in the stuff. It's not like a Horcrux or anything like that. It is definitely a symbol of authority. I mean, we get that very, very clearly from the incident with Saruman. Gandalf makes it explicit that that's what he's doing when he breaks his staff. But it's more than that because when his own staff breaks. Let me read that passage so that you can get it, Matt because it's a very interesting. It asks a question and I want you to tell me what you think it's telling us here at that moment. And this is when he's facing off against the Balrog. The Balrog's whip is whirling. Aragorn runs back. Elendil. He shouted. I am with you, Gandalf. Gondor. Cried Boromir. And leaped after him. At that moment Gandalf lifted his staff and crying aloud he smote the bridge before him. The staff broke asunder and fell from his hand. A blinding sheet of white flame sprang up. The bridge cracked and then you know the rest. So we're not explicitly told why the staff broke. It does seem like this was directly caused by Gandalf casting perhaps like an ultimate version of a spell is the only thing I can think of. Like this spell requires all of the power I possess and it is a last ditch effort. And when I've done that I will no longer have this power, this authority. But then we come back to the idea of it representing authority, which it does. So what do you think? What are your thoughts on the idea of the staff, its powers, its symbolism, that kind of thing?

[Matt]

It's tricky because it's such a good point to bring up the fact that Gandalf staff breaks Saruman staff breaks Gandalf gets a new staff, continues fighting on well, but he does die and is brought back and everything. So I. I feel like that's kind of a reset for him. But with Saruman, clearly he couldn't just make another staff and have all his power back. Like, he's definitely in a diminished form when we see him in the Shire. So, yeah, it's. I've always thought of them as like a. Primarily a conduit for their innate power and the way I've always. I. The way I've kind of thought of. And I don't know if this is correct again, this is speculation here, but is Gandalf is just channeling more power than, you know, what is, at the. In its essence, a wooden staff is capable of.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

You know, channeling without breaking Tom or

[Alan Sisto]

I'm sorry, Kosh, you. You want to jump in on that.

[Kosh Koch]

A lot of good points made, I think. I don't think the staff is a Horcrux any more than I think the ring is a Horcrux. But the thing is that after Gandalf breaks. After the staff breaks, let's just say it neutrally, after the staff breaks, not only does Gandalf survive the fall and nobody knows how far down it is, he's still able to. He is able to fight and defeat a Balrog.

[Alan Sisto]

Right. So he still possesses power, pretty immense power.

[Kosh Koch]

If the power is in somehow you know, shared with the staff. Does the breaking of the staff, you know, kind of release the power back to him? Because now, because the Maiar, the Istari, are not allowed to fight against Sauron directly. They're not allowed to fight for domination.

[Matt]

But.

[Kosh Koch]

But this is a different situation.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Kosh Koch]

And so, you know, does Gandalf need to go back to being Aloran in order to. In order to defeat the Balrog? And that's just, you know, that's just sort of some of the things I was thinking and. Oh, Alan, I just want to take a chance to say thank you for the wonderful things you and Talber said about me and my book.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, you're very welcome.

[Kosh Koch]

On the latest. On the latest episode.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, it's well deserved. Absolutely. Folks, if you have not picked up Tom's book, you really should. And we'll put another link to it in our show notes.

[Kosh Koch]

I don't know. I told Verland what you said. I don't know if she's ever going to speak to you again for comparing me to her.

[Alan Sisto]

That you're like a poor man's version of erlan. Flieger. Yeah. Yeah. Those aren't the words I use, but that was sort of the intent I was trying to. To get across. You write very much like her. You really do. It's. It's. I feel like it's the highest compliment I could pay you. It's a pretty great compliment. Yeah. This is a really interesting question. I remember thinking about this with Sean and I don't remember at what point it came up. It might have been a mailbag question, and I wish I could find the discussion that we had, because if it was in our outline, then I might have some notes and some really good references. But if it was a mailbag question, I've got nothing. The question about after the staff. I mean, he clearly had power. Not only did, like you say, he survived the fall. And we don't know how long it was yet. Long time I fell, he said at last, slowly, as if thinking back with difficulty. His fire was about me. I was burned. Get into the water. Cold it was is the tide of death, yet it has a bottom beyond light and knowledge. And we fought under the living earth ever. I hewed him so he still had his sword. And then he talks about, you know, these delvings beneath even the deepest delvings of the Dwarves. This is an incredible fight that lasted days. As they go back up the endless stair, coming all the way out to the pinnacle of Zirak Zigiel. It's just an incredible thing that he does have still all of that power. But, yeah, there's definitely something going on. You almost wonder, had he not broken his staff, had he not surrendered his authority and his power in that moment, would he have been able to be, for lack of a better word, rebodied or reincarnated? I come to one of the letters that Tolkien wrote. This is one of my favorite letters because it's so. It has a lot of good things to say about Gandalf. And it's letter 156. It's a draft letter to Robert Murray, who was a priest, and he's talking about the Istari. Specifically, he points out that Gandalf really died and was changed. And then he goes on and he talks a little bit about, you know, some of the things that Gandalf the White said. So when he returns from death and he ends up having that conversation with Wormtongue, he should have said, I have not passed through death to bandy crooked words of the serving man. He actually wants to change what he said, because in the books, of course, he said, I've not passed through fire and flood to bandy crooked words. But his point was Gandalf did die, and it was an actual death. He points out that, you know, he was an incarnate angel, that he did have, you know, a physical body that could be killed. In fact, that's what he explicitly says. Physical bodies capable of pain and weariness and of afflicting the spirit with physical fear and of being killed. But he puts that in quotes, saying that supported by the angelic spirit, they might endure long and only show slowly the wearing of care and labor. But I want to get to the sacrifice, because that's the important part of this letter. He says that in his condition, talking about Gandalf being in a mortal body at this point, for in his condition, it was for him a sacrifice to perish on the bridge in defense of his companions. Less perhaps than for a mortal man or Hobbit, since he had a far greater inner power than they, but also more since it was a humbling and abnegation of himself in conformity to the rules. For all he could know at that moment, he was the only person who could direct the resistance to Sauron successfully and all his mission was vain. He was handing over to the authority that ordained the rules. And he uses capital A when he says authority. So he's talking about ERU and giving up personal hope of success. And that sacrifice, Tolkien goes on to say, was accepted, and then he was enhanced and returned. It is specifically because he sacrificed himself that he was then empowered as Gandalf the White to be more and to do more and more and given the ability to be much more direct in his confrontation with Sauron. Which is why I'll still criticize Jackson's films every. Every now and then. Because in the extended version, when the Witch King breaks Gandalf's staff, I just laugh every time like, no, sir, that would not happen.

[Matt]

The stalemate at the Gate is so much better.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, isn't it? I mean, I may bash the rank and a bass Return of the King, but at least they got that part right now, fool. I mean, they got the staging of it right. Him on a horse by himself, Gandalf on Shadowfax by himself. Yeah, at the gate, the tense moment. Yeah, not the Casio DX7 keyboard voice. Man, that was. That was bad. Yeah. I think I feel like the staff here really does come down to that symbol of authority, because Gandalf was. Was willing to surrender that to the authority, to the capital A authority in that moment being like, there is Nothing more I can do than sacrifice my life right now to salvage this mission. I will do that. Not knowing what will come of that. I mean, he knows that his spirit will continue, but maybe he's stuck in Valinor. It's like, well, too bad you're not going back. He doesn't know. He certainly doesn't know that he's going to be not only sent back, but sent back enhanced Gandalf 2.0. Right, right. Which is better than, like, I'm just thinking Gandalf XP or Gandalf Vista. When you get an upgrade, those are not the ones you want. No, Gandalf 2.0, Gandalf the White. I mean, I don't even know what Windows version we're on anymore, but XP and Vista definitely came to mind. Gandalf 3.11 for workgroups. All right, so yeah, that upgrade only came because of what he did. And so I'm seeing more and more the idea of it representing authority because we see it with Saruman and then we see it also with Gandalf in laying down that authority. Good question. Right, Matt, do we have anybody else left in the first round or is it time for us to move on to round two?

[Matt]

We do. We have a question from Katie.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, welcome, Katie.

[Katie]

Hey guys. Always happy to pop in for these. I had a bit of a softball for both of you tonight. I wanted to ask, knowing both of your backgrounds, kind of a two parter for each of you, seeing as you used to be. Either you can either go one of two ways with this. Either as your photography background or as a lawyer, where in Middle Earth would you want to have your office as a lawyer or where would you want to set up as a professional architectural photographer? And for Matt, knowing your background, would you either want to shoot weddings in Middle Earth or what event, person or area of Middle Earth would you want to do a documentary of?

[Alan Sisto]

I already know my answers. Matt, where are you? You think you need a little more time while I go through?

[Matt]

Yeah, you go ahead. You go ahead.

[Alan Sisto]

Because my answer for both of those, both as a lawyer and as an architectural photographer, they're both actually the same. I would want to set up a Minas Tirith, and that is because I would want to help Aragorn establish a proper constitution and to use my constitutional law background to help him set up a, a proper system of government that's going to continue on. I will say that that also would be the most intriguing place to be based in to do architectural photography. And then from there, of Course, branching out. Because I'd love to go to Osgiliath and shoot the ruins and maybe see it rebuilt, Shoot Minas Morgul from a very long way away and maybe to go down into the southern feasts of Gondor and shoot Pilar gear and Doll Amroth and to shoot the beach at Longstrong. Because I also was a nature photographer, so I'd love to do that. I think that's where I would. I would want to. To be based, but I definitely would want a trip to go shoot the Shire, because, I mean, that's just. I love landscape photography even more than architectural, because that was. Architecture is what I did for a living. Because you can't sell landscape photography. I mean, there's a gazillion people trying to do that, and I was never going to compete in that field, but. So, yeah, Minister for both. The constitutional law part really intrigues me, like, setting. Setting that up, you know, and. And having it be a proper form of government.

[Matt]

All right, so for mine, so shooting weddings was like my side gig. And I'm not going to say it was a passion of mine, to be honest. Like, that was. That was a, you know, we've got young mouths to feed and pay off student loans kind of gig.

[Alan Sisto]

I did one once. Matt, did I ever tell you that I shot one wedding?

[Matt]

No.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. I did it for a friend of mine that I used to work with. Never again. I walked out of that. It was like the first six months that I'd done photography professionally, and I was like, oh, no, no, this is awful.

[Matt]

It's a lot. It's a lot. Like, it's. Yeah, yeah. Especially, you know, we tried to do really good work and everything, but, yeah, it's. It's long days and a lot of work. That being said, like, if I. If I. If I had to shoot a wedding. Notice I say if I had to. If that doesn't tell you enough about my passion for that line of work. If I had to, I. I would do Sam and Rosie's, because that's the. That's the farm wedding. Like, going back, you're circling back here

[Alan Sisto]

like, you'd be on autopilot, man. You'd just be able to knock that out without thinking, yeah, yeah, I could do that. Or.

[Matt]

Or Aoin and Faramir. Like, that's, you know, as long as it's in a.

[Alan Sisto]

It's in a barn, right?

[Matt]

Yeah, I've. I've shot plenty of weddings next to, like, you know, horse. Horses in a field or, you know, or cows in a field, stuff like that. Yeah. If I were to do documentaries, Minas Tirith would have a lot of cool, cool history to do documentaries on. But man, being in Rivendell and having access to Elrond, can you imagine, you know, how like, you watch History Channel documentaries and stuff and it's always the same people that they interview about certain things. Like imagine Elrond is that recurring guy.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

And he.

[Alan Sisto]

The guy who knows everything about that subject, except the subjects are everything.

[Matt]

The cool thing with, like, with shooting documentaries and stuff is what you see in the final product is a portion of everything that you shoot. And so just being in the room with Elrond and hearing him talk for hours on Middle Earth history, like, that'd be pretty sweet. And plus they would probably have all of the, you know, paintings and artwork and maps and stuff. Like all the assets you need are right there to make a really cool documentary.

[Alan Sisto]

That's true. And really cool B roll footage.

[Matt]

Exactly. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Great stuff. Thank you. Good question. Katie Arthur, you wanted to jump in real quick? Yeah.

[Arthur]

Just a follow up question. I know that they're a personal injury firm, but would you affiliate with Gothmog? Gothmog? Sheila Bangmar and Gothmog.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, it depends on what position they're filling. I don't know that I want to be a partner, but, you know, a senior attorney at least, perhaps. Yeah. The pay is good, right? I mean, as long as the pay is there. It's like doing the weddings, Matt. You know, it's how I'd feed my kids and then I'd.

[Matt]

That's right.

[Alan Sisto]

I'd still do my pro bono work for. For Aragorn and developing the. The Constitution. Good stuff. There's no one like you. And there never will be. From the producer, Bohemian Rhapsody. There are many legends, but there is only 1 Michael.

[Arthur]

Rated PG13.

[Alan Sisto]

In theaters April 24th.

[Katie]

This episode is brought to you by Redfin. You're listening to a podcast, which means you're probably multitasking, maybe even scrolling home listings on Redfin, saving homes without expecting to get them. But Redfin isn't just built for endless browsing. It's built to help you find and own a home with agents who close twice as many deals. When you find the one, you've got a real shot at getting it. Get [e-mail]. own the dream.

[Alan Sisto]

Amazon presents Jeff versus taco truck salsa. Whether it's verde roja or the orange one, for Jeff, trying any salsa is like playing Russian roulette with a flamethrower. Luckily Jeff saved with Amazon and stocked up on Antacids, Ginger tea and milk. Habanero. More like Habanero. Yes, save the everyday with Amazon.

[Matt]

We told you about the amazing PPP community after our earlier break and if you are a part of that community and want to enjoy something even more special, come join the Fellowship of the Podcast on Patreon. You get to be in the best discord community around, one that includes host hangouts and even live episode recordings.

[Alan Sisto]

And it's your support there that enables me to work full time doing all of these shows, the ppp, Today's Tolkien Times, the Rings of Power Wrap up, and my streaming show the PPP Plays. When you join, you also get episode post scripts, you can get AD free episodes, free merch and more.

[Matt]

And you can join these questions after Nightfall episodes or even appear as a guest in the north wing. Go to patreon.com prancingponypod to show your support and join the Fellowship of the Podcast.

[Alan Sisto]

Don't forget to rate and review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And please recommend us to your friends something you can do directly on Spotify. Now just share the show with your friends. Matt, I know we don't have a lot of time left. We're gonna dive into the second round. We. We really spent a lot of time in that first round answering some tough questions, so let's see what we got in round two.

[Matt]

All right, first up we have Arthur.

[Alan Sisto]

Arthur, thank you. First in both rounds. That's impressive.

[Arthur]

I will try to be perhaps slightly briefer this time, but I'm still talking about Tour. Okay, we know that Elrond may have some family issues he needs to work out. In the hobbit, when Gandalf 1.0 hired him to translate some Elvish language on a sword, and he said it's the sword of the King of Gondolin, but didn't mention who was my great grandfather. Thank you for returning my heirloom at the Council of Elrond. He says, frodo, if you're dumb enough to I mean, if you take on this task, you'll be counted among the great elf friends like Hador and Huron and Turin and Beren himself. Turin may have killed a dragon, but he also destroyed Nargothrond.

[Alan Sisto]

He did.

[Arthur]

Tuor rescued the remnants of Gondolin. Can we speculate why Turin is one of the great Elf friends of old, but Tuor isn't?

[Alan Sisto]

Well, that actually does come back to your first question. Because if Tuor is counted as an elf, then he wouldn't be counted as an elf friend. He'd be among the elves.

[Matt]

Therefore he'd just be a friend.

[Alan Sisto]

Then he'd just be an elf. Right, So I mean, all the elves are elf friends. I mean, he doesn't mention Glorfindel. He doesn't mention, you know, any of these. He doesn't mention Fingon or Turgon. He only mentions the humans. Therefore Tuor can't be both an elf and an elf friend. Arthur, what are your thoughts on that one at least?

[Arthur]

Well, isn't getting turned into an elf the most elf friendish thing you can do?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's the thing. It's a one time appearance though.

[Arthur]

It's like the ultimate elf friend.

[Alan Sisto]

It is. You're such an elf friend. You're just an elf. Yeah, yeah, that, that would definitely work. So I think that answers the part about two or not being in that list. But it's also, as you might see, you know, on the fine print of something that you buy, you know, this list is not all inclusive. Like this is not an entire list. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[Matt]

It's not comprehensive.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, it is not a comprehensive list. So that's the other reason why you might not be in there. But it's, it is interesting to think that Elrond doesn't say, oh, by the way, thank you for returning my family heirloom.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

But I also don't know if in 1937, or even in 1954, 55, when he was retconning the Hobbit for the second edition, when he completely revamped chapter five. I don't know if by that point he had incorporated all of that first age stuff with.

[Matt]

Into the story.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, he didn't. He'd incorporated some of it, obviously. You know, we get Aragorn singing, part of the lay of Lathian. A lot more references in the Lord of the Rings than we did in the Hobbit, for instance. But certainly in 1937 he wasn't. We know that because even in 1937 he didn't know who the Necromancer was. So, you know, did he think I should go back and edit this chapter too? Because Elrond would now be not just, you know, a half elf, he's like this incredible person who's the son of the Star of Venus. Right. But by Lord of the Rings he knows that. So, yeah, I kind of wonder like, what would have happened if Elrond had said, oh, yeah, oh, this belonged to my family. Yeah, you can't leave here with this. Not gonna let you. Good stuff.

[Matt]

Next up we have Graham.

[Graham]

Okay, thanks again. This will be a much shorter question. Well, shorter question. I don't know about the answer. There are just too many to list. So to keep it manageable, what to you are, let's say the two or three greatest unsolved mysteries of Middle Earth. If you could discover a secret document somewhere, or an undiscovered manuscript, would you rather it be about, say, Tal Elmar, Volume 2, the Secrets of Tom Bombadil, or something else?

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, Matt, this is a good one.

[Matt]

You know what immediately came to my mind? The Blue Wizards.

[Alan Sisto]

Really? Okay, that's a good one. That works.

[Matt]

I know he gave a couple, like, possible outcomes. Like, I love that. It's the two extremes. Like, they either failed miserably or succeeded better than we could have ever hoped for kind of thing.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Or they just become that stoner kid that went to college for nine years.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah. That's the failed miserably part.

[Katie]

Yeah.

[Matt]

But yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, I'm thinking Saruman failed miserably, but that's failed in a much worse way.

[Matt]

So, I mean, we have those two options of the outcome. But if we're talking like discovering a manuscript or something like that.

[Alan Sisto]

The story of the Blue wizard, fleshed out story.

[Matt]

Yes, that's what I want. I would want, like, give me some adventures in the east and like the Blue Wizards interacting with the Men of Ruhn.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay. I like that because also, maybe we get some Geography of the east. So we get some people of the east and languages.

[Matt]

We get people of the East. Yeah, languages, all that stuff. I like that because it expands the map, you know?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Which I do like. But I have to admit that isn't where my brain first went. My brain went to two things almost at the same time. I can't even tell you now which one hit first. But they're both first age one. I want the rest of the story of Tuor and Gondolin. I want that period of time from his arrival through the gates, which was glorious. And can you imagine we talked about adaptations earlier. That would be a fantastic scene to see. Long scene of him getting through all the gates. But I want to see from that moment to the moment that they flee fallen Gondolin. I want to see how he courts Idril. I want to see them fall in love. I want to see them get married. I want to see the king beginning to trust him more. I want to see Maeglin being a total jerk over in the corner I want to see all of that. But the other thing that popped in my head, literally simultaneously with Tuor and the fall of Gondolin, was the rest of the lay of Laetheon in the form of the lei.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Because we know the rest of the story. But the cantos of the lei end, well, pretty much with Beren's arm. They end as Carcharoth takes a bite and that's it. And it's like, wow, I want that. I want that. But then that made me think what I really want, you know, there's a very short. It doesn't cover much of the story, but there is an alliterative verse version of the story of Turin, but it only covers, like, the tiniest bit. But I love alliterative verse, and I can imagine an alliterative verse epic of the story of Turin. So all of those. All of those.

[Matt]

That's pretty good. That's pretty good. I also think of things like. Like the nameless things.

[Alan Sisto]

Ooh, yes. Like, what are the. And where do they come from? How did they get here?

[Matt]

The Balrog's afraid of them, for crying out loud. Like, what the.

[Alan Sisto]

That's pretty wild, you know?

[Matt]

And I don't know. Like, I'm torn on this. I'm torn on. On, like, nameless things is one like blue wizards. I'm not torn on. I would want that. Nameless things. I'm almost like, could you even come up with something that is better than the mystery as it's left? Because it's so good to have just these very mysterious creatures. We see the Watcher in the water, obviously, but then, like, the other things gnawing on the roots of the mountain, like it's. He describes it for, like, a couple sentences and then just drops it, never

[Alan Sisto]

to see it again.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Which again, is one of those textual ruins that just tells us that this is a real story. Because not everything can be explained in anything. And I just love that there's so many of them. I kind of want to see Beruthiel sailing off on that ship.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Surrounded by her cats. Like, bye, bye. Thanks for flying. Bye bye.

[Matt]

We need some dialogue from Beruthiel, is what we need. Because I'm sure it would be fantastic.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a fun question. I really. There's. Because there's so much. In Tolkien. I mean, one of the ones mentioned the. The story of Tal Omar, but actually finished. Yeah, I would love that. I mean, we just spent all those weeks going through Tal Omar. I would just absolutely love to know more like, who were the Fell Folk? Where did the Folk of the Hills of Agar end up? Where were the Hills of Agar? What time in the Second Age did this happen? And what do you mean? Tal Omar in Rhovanian. Tal Elmar in, you know, all these places that he talks about at the end of the story. There's so much, you know, oh, my goodness. So much in that. That we had so many questions at the end of that, I think in the P5 for that we speculated for like a full hour, just like. Like, who are these people? But there's so many questions to speculate about. That's the problem. So, anyway, good stuff. All right, Matt, who else do we have here in the second round?

[Matt]

Next we've got Elizabeth.

[Elizabeth]

If the Council of Elrond was a graduating high school class, what would be the superlatives for our main speakers?

[Alan Sisto]

Pippin, class clown. Aragorn, most likely to succeed. Boromir is the prom king and the high school quarterback. You know it too, right, Matt? Yeah. No, that's good. Yeah, man. Let's go. Let's get him. He also wrestles during the winter. That's his other sport.

[Matt]

Legolas is best hair.

[Alan Sisto]

Legolas is definitely best hair. All right, Arthur, I'll let you pipe in here. What do you have?

[Arthur]

Ella, Dan and Elro here, most likely to be ignored and people talk about their. Their sister instead.

[Alan Sisto]

That's fair. Yeah, that's definitely true. It's been a hot minute since high school, Matt.

[Matt]

Yeah, I was gonna say I can't

[Alan Sisto]

remember what I don't remember, like, what the others.

[Matt]

Did you get voted as anything in your high school, Alan?

[Alan Sisto]

If it was, it was traumatic and I've forgotten it because it wouldn't have been a positive thing.

[Matt]

Best at chiseling wheels from stone.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, wow.

[Matt]

I got safest driver in high school.

[Alan Sisto]

Ouch, that hurts.

[Matt]

What?

[Alan Sisto]

That sounds like an insult.

[Matt]

No, dude, I mean, it probably was, but I'll own it. I'm a safe driver. You're welcome. If you've ever ridden in a vehicle with me, then you're welcome.

[Alan Sisto]

You know what? The number of people who have been injured in cars with me is zero. So I guess I'm equally safe.

[Matt]

That's. That's pretty good.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I mean, you know, I have some other thoughts, but. Elizabeth, what do you have?

[Elizabeth]

Oh, you might already be getting there, but I was going to argue for Glondel is the best hair.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, well, I think we said Legolas

[Matt]

probably is best hair.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, she's not at the Council, though she's not at the council, right?

[Matt]

Yeah. Oh, right. It was at the council.

[Alan Sisto]

And I guess if we're thinking book version, then Glad Glorfindel probably has to get it. But if it's movie version, Legolas gets it. I'm trying to figure out what to give Gimli. He's got to get something.

[Matt]

Worst temper. Is that something? I don't know what all it's in yearbooks anymore.

[Alan Sisto]

Good stuff. Shortest temper. Definitely shortest temper. Well played, sir. All right. Good stuff. That's a fun one. Matt, do we have anybody left here in the second round?

[Matt]

We do. Next we have Neil.

[Neil]

Hello again. Continuing on from my earlier question about the Men of the Twilight, can you please speculate on what impact the End of the First Age had on the development of their cultures? To expand on that.

[Alan Sisto]

The end of the First Age, after

[Neil]

the end of the First Age. So their lands were not consumed by the War of the Wrath, but did the loss of the lands to the west of the Blue Mountains and the removal of the High men to Numenor result in the diminishing of these people at the start of the Second Age? Or did they maybe flourish due to the loosening of the grip of darkness on them?

[Alan Sisto]

I think a combination of both of those. And we see a little bit of that when in second age 600, Veentur makes his way back to Middle Earth and he comes back and word of his arrival reaches these men that are living in Eriador at the time, that are actually in communication with Gil Galad. And they show up to a meeting and 12 of them show up. And though they have these sort of little bit of a language problem because of the 600 years of separation, the men of Numenor see them as being just like them. Like if they were speaking their language and wearing their clothes, they would have passed for Numenoreans. So I think there is an opportunity for them to be elevated, to become noble, because they're related. They're still the same kin. And so I think it's a combination of they don't quite maybe have the guidance, but they also don't have the interference from Morgoth. And Sauron has not yet come to power. So I think you really have both of those influences. One, an absence of evil, but then also an absence of maybe nobility, if you will, affecting them in both ways. As you asked that question, I was thinking End of the Second Age briefly. And it brought me back to a question that when we were talking earlier, Arthur, about mortals not dying In Valinor. It made me, you know, burning out in Valinor. I'd completely forgot to mention, because you said that all the mortals who get there seem to live forever. Some of them don't get there. And I'm thinking of Amandil, Elendil's father, who went just like Earendil, to go to Valinor and plead for. For the men, and he just disappeared. We never saw him again. So I think that's probably the only other one. I mean, I only brought him up because we had that question, but I wanted to at least highlight Amandil. Yeah, there's definitely going to be influence in both directions on the men. I also think it leads to less influence by the elves, because with so many of the elves gone, returning to Valinor after the end of the War of Wrath, you have fewer elves remaining in Middle Earth. The ones that do, I think, do influence the men around them. I'm thinking specifically actually of those men in Eriador that were in communication with Gil Galad and the folks at Lindon, but there's not a lot of that, you know, depending on which version of the story of Galadriel and Celeborn you believe. You know, they don't. They don't even establish a region until well into the Second Age, I want to say after. After 800, so. And Rivendell is sort of isolated, not necessarily there to influence or help out men in any way. So. Yeah, that's a really good question. I like thinking through what would happen to these groups of men in the First Age, especially the kin of the Edain. Right, the Northmen, you know, the ones that are related to the House of. Of Beor and Hador. But then we always come back to the House of Haleth and what happens to those. The kin of those people. And because of the language problem, they get isolated and they become eventually the Dunlendings. Good question, though. That was fun. Thank you folks, for joining us for another episode of the Prancing Pony podcast. But please come back next week when Matt and I start our first four episode look the Hunt for the Ring from Unfinished Tales.

[Matt]

I'm really excited.

[Alan Sisto]

Do you think you went to Jared's Hunt for the Ring? Not a sponsor of the show. Just saying.

[Matt]

All right, maybe. Maybe you should work on that. That's a good tie in sponsorship. Well, yeah, no, but I'm really looking forward to it because that's one of my favorite sections from Unfinished Tales. It's just fascinating to track because you can go basically through the calendar and say like, okay, they went from here to here. Obviously we're going to get into it, so stay tuned for that, folks. And Alan and I as always want to thank the members of Team PPP Editor Jordan Rannels Barlaman, Becca Davis, Social Media manager Casey Hilsey, Event and Patreon community coordinator Katie McKenna, graphic artist Megan Collins, and website guru Phil Dean.

[Alan Sisto]

And please take a minute to check out the prancingpony podcast.com that's where you're going to find show notes, outtakes, and our old Prancing Pony ponderings. You'll also find our online storefront where you can get all sorts of cool PPP merch, including the amazing chapter art that Megan's been doing for us for more than three seasons.

[Matt]

Now we're all about the books here at the Prancing Pony Podcast, so be sure to visit our library page as well. We try to make sure that any book that's mentioned on the show is linked there for you to purchase, and we do get a small amount of compensation when you make your purchase, so thank you for that.

[Alan Sisto]

Indeed, thank you. And we will be sure to include a link to Kash's book. We also want to thank our patrons at the Kir Dan's Contribution tier. I'll start with Demay in Alaska, Chad in Texas, Lance in New Jersey, Joseph in Michigan, Kathy from North Carolina, Brian the uk, Jerry from Washington, Irwin from the Netherlands, Ben in Minnesota, Anthony in Texas, Zaksu in Illinois, Joshua in Massachusetts, Lucy in Texas, Erica in Texas, James in Massachusetts and Ann in Kentucky.

[Matt]

There's also Sean in New Jersey, Mason in California, Maureen from Massachusetts, Olivia in London, Robert in Arizona, Nick in Wisconsin, Lewis in South Carolina, Carolina, Thomas in Germany, Craig in California, Kevin in Massachusetts, Joe in Maryland, D. Scott in California, Jeffrey in Michigan, Paul in Colorado, David from Connecticut and Teresa from Texas. Thank you all so very much for your support indeed.

[Alan Sisto]

Thank you.

[Matt]

Make sure you don't miss any episodes of the Prancing Pony Podcast. Subscribe now through Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or your favorite podcast app.

[Alan Sisto]

And one last thing. As always, don't forget to send your thoughts, comments, and most of all, your really easy questions please to barnamantheprancingponypodcast.com Barlaman

[Matt]

does have a lot of mail to sort through though, so we'll try to get to you just as soon as we're able.

[Alan Sisto]

Indeed. As always, though, this has been far too short a time to spend among such excellent and admirable listeners and guests. But until next time.

[Matt]

This is the end. We are going. We are leaving now. Goodbye.

[Alan Sisto]

Ever since I started serving cut water canned cocktails to my guests. Hey. Hi. How are you? Yeah, going through. I've gone from host to hero. Thanks to cut water, I can make real, perfectly mixed cocktails in seconds. It's as simple as garnishing a glass, cracking my can of cut water open and pouring it over ice. Cut water, Real cocktails. Perfect. Mixed. Copyright 2025 Cutwater Spirit, San Diego, California. Enjoy responsibly.