409 – Runnin’ Down a Ring

Summary

The Prancing Pony Podcast

Episode 409 – Runnin’ Down a Ring

Released: April 19, 2026
Hosts: Alan Sisto & Matt (Nerd of the Rings)
Guest: David Smith

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Alan and Matt begin a four-part deep dive into "The Hunt for the Ring," a fascinating narrative from Tolkien’s Unfinished Tales that explores the background and chronology of the Black Riders' pursuit of the One Ring. This week, they focus exclusively on Part One—detailing the interplay between Gollum, Sauron, Aragorn, and the Nazgûl, unraveling timelines, examining textual contradictions, and bringing their trademark humor, lore expertise, and love of Tolkien to the analysis.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Welcome and North Wing Interview with David Smith

(Content from 00:43 – 11:43)

• Meet the Guest: David Smith, a retired computer programmer and lifelong Tolkien fan, introduced to The Hobbit in 1964 by his father (who first heard it read in 1938/39).
  • On sharing Tolkien: “I read it, like, 10 or 15 times that first year.” (06:08)
  • Generational tradition: He read out loud to his siblings and later his children, passing on the stories.
• Lightning Round Highlights:
  • Favorite scene: “Finrod's rap battle with Sauron.” (08:33)
  • Favorite place to visit: Rivendell—for the books! (08:50–08:55)
  • Favorite hobbit: “Rory Brandybuck. He’s very astute, kind of laid back.” (09:05)
  • Favorite non-Tolkien author: Patrick O’Brian (Aubrey-Maturin series), describing them as “novels of manners like Jane Austen.” (09:43–10:44)
  • Favorite artist: John Howe: “Sort of darker than Alan Lee’s.” (11:05)

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2. Setting the Stage: The Hunt for the Ring

(Discussion resumes at 11:53; main content starts at 12:04)

• Part One coverage: Alan and Matt clarify they're starting with Part One of the Hunt for the Ring, reminding listeners that inconsistencies in this version may be clarified in later ‘Other Versions’ (covered in the following weeks). (14:45–15:16)
• Narrative Frame: Noted that it’s Gandalf’s account, as written by Frodo, suggesting limited perspective in the main Lord of the Rings texts, which are typically from the least knowledgeable character (often the hobbits). (15:16–17:22)
• Why is this story here, not in LotR proper or Appendices?: Tolkien preferred to keep the main narrative focused on the 'good guys', and because of perspective limitations. (16:15–17:58)

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3. Chronology and Timeline Discrepancies

(Building from 18:24 onwards)

• Reconciling conflicting dates:
  • The Tale of Years in Appendix B versus “Hunt for the Ring”: Gollum’s capture, release, and the timelines for Gandalf and Aragorn’s journeys don’t quite match.
  • Referencing Hammond & Scull’s Reader’s Companion for detailed analysis; Tolkien likely left specific dates murky because Gollum is an unreliable narrator.
    • “Tolkien may have dropped this specificity simply because Gollum…can’t rely on Gollum to be accurate.” (26:11–26:21)
    • The challenge: 900+ mile journey in 50 days; how would Aragorn do it with Gollum in tow?
    • Speculation: Tolkien would have ironed out these logistical issues in later drafts. (100:06–102:08)

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4. Gollum’s Ordeal: Resilience and Indomitability

(From 28:25)

• Gollum’s capture and interrogation in Mordor
  • Sauron senses in Gollum a spirit that is “ultimately indomitable…which could not be overcome even by the shadow of fear, except by destroying him.” (14:09)
  • Connection between hobbit-nature and Ring-lust:
    • “Would he have been this indomitable if he was just a man instead of a hobbit consumed by lust for the Ring? …You really need both elements.” (38:26–39:07)
    • Noted similarity in resilience between Gollum, Frodo, Sam, and hobbits generally, using textual cross-references from both LotR and Tolkien's prologue (“doughty at bay”). (30:36–31:48)
  • Gollum’s hatred of Sauron becomes “even greater than his terror.” (40:07–40:25)

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5. Sauron’s Hunt Begins: The Nazgûl Mobilize

(From 49:01, major segment at 51:14)

• Ringwraiths as Sauron’s ultimate weapon
  • “They have no will but his own…” (52:24–53:11)
    • Clarification: They’re utterly subservient, unable to rebel, as their rings are now in Sauron’s possession.
    • Letter 246 reference: If they encountered a Ring-bearer claiming the Ring (like Frodo or Saruman), they would “obey or feign to obey any minor commands… but Sauron had primary control of their wills.” (91:03–93:09)
  • Limitation of the Nazgûl: Their terror makes them poor spies; their presence is “impossible to hide…there must be something really important. Oh, the Ring.” (57:46–58:16)
  • Camouflage: Sauron uses military distractions—attack on Thranduil (Gollum’s escape), and Osgiliath—in June 3018 to mask the Nazgûl’s hunt for the Ring. (59:01–59:28)

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6. The Journey and the Search

(Beginning at 64:32, continuing to the end)

• Nazgûl’s path
  • Initial search for the "land of the halflings" focuses on the Vales of Anduin; failure leads northward, even toward Lorien (which the Witch-king avoids because of Galadriel’s power and Nenya). (70:28–74:00)
  • “Terror went before them and lingered behind them.” (74:46–75:01)
• Sauron grows desperate after failed search:
  • Sends threatening message—the Witch-king is “filled with dismay” at Sauron’s wrath. (76:12–77:06)
    • “What could Sauron do to them beyond what he’s already done?” (76:15)
• Sauron’s intelligence windfall:
  • Gains word of Boromir’s quest, Saruman’s betrayal, and Gandalf’s capture. (77:06–79:14)
  • The Black Riders head to Isengard, setting up the next phase of the hunt.

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7. Saruman’s Deadly Dance

(From 83:43–96:12)

• Saruman’s standoff with the Witch-king

  • Saruman’s gate is too strong for assault—he feigns cooperation, using his voice to redirect the Nazgûl to hunt Gandalf.
    • “If I had it, then you would bow before me and call me lord.” (Voice of Saruman, 86:34)
  • Saruman is now a "known traitor to both [Sauron and the Free Peoples],” with “no hope of deceiving Sauron.” (88:39)

• Wormtongue’s betrayal

  • The Riders encounter Gríma, who spills everything about the Shire and Gandalf:
    • “Yea, verily I can tell you, Lord... West through Gap of Rohan yonder, and then north and a little west until the next great river bars the way. The Greyflood, it is called... the Shire, they call it.” (Wormtongue, 86:54–95:00)
  • Witch-king spares Gríma, seeing his value in harming Saruman (seen later in LotR & Scouring of the Shire).

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8. Race to the Shire: The Dunedain’s Last Stand

(96:12 – 107:58)

• Nazgûl tactics
  • Witch-king breaks his company into four pairs for a dispersed, swift approach.
  • Along the way, they capture Saruman’s spies (the “squint-eyed southerner”), who also provide maps of the Shire. (102:30–102:59)
• At Sarn Ford:
  • The Dunedain Rangers heroically attempt to bar the Nine at the southern border of the Shire.
    • “But this was a task beyond the power of the Dunedain… even if Aragorn had been with them.” (98:28–104:01)
  • The Nazgûl break through at night; before dawn on September 23, they are riding in the Shire—just as Frodo celebrates his birthday, unaware his world is about to change forever.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On resilience:
  “As difficult as a soft Shire hobbit is to daunt or kill, one imagines Gollum being a lot more difficult. He really is indomitable—except by death.” (Alan, 31:47)
• On Sauron’s confidence:
  “But there’s a problem with having all this power. They’re so terrifying…they’re not exactly stealthy.” (Alan, 57:31)
• On narrative limitations:
  “We’re always getting the story…from the least knowledgeable character. That’s just not how Tolkien tells his stories.” (Alan, 17:03)
• On the Ringwraiths:
  “They have no will but his own…They are literally minimis of Sauron…They have no independent will.” (Alan, 52:24–53:11)
• On the timeline absurdity:
  “Even assuming they encountered Wormtongue early…500 miles in 40 hours? I just don’t know…Tolkien would have fixed this.” (Alan, 100:40–102:08)
• On Ringwraith NFL scouting reports:
  “Kamul ran a 4.33, but he's afraid of water, so if it’s a rainy game, he’s not going to be able to come out of the locker room.” (Alan, 124:43)

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Fun & Memorable Moments

• Rap Battle with Sauron: David Smith’s favorite moment is the “rap battle” between Finrod and Sauron—a recurring fun theme in Tolkien fandom. (08:33)
• The “Indomitable” Bit: Matt and Alan riff on their success pronouncing “indomitable” correctly several times in one bit, breaking the fourth wall of their own podcasting process in a humorous aside. (30:18)
• Humor about the Nazgûl’s horses and travel speeds: Alan and Matt discuss the logistics of the Nazgûl riding non-Mearas horses 500 miles in 40 hours—physics-defying, even for undead kings. (100:40–102:08)
• Modern analogies:
  • “Traveling naked and on foot—never have to pick up your bag at baggage claim.” (67:18)
  • “The Nazgûl, LLC…very strict non-compete clause.” (102:59)
• Prequel/movie adaptation fears: Both hosts speculate on the potential pitfalls and hopes for the upcoming “Hunt for Gollum” film—discussing casting expectations, the dangers of overusing AI/de-aging, and the importance of letting the appendices inspire rich storytelling instead of getting bogged down in "prequel trap" fan service. (108:52–121:44)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [03:02] — North Wing Interview with David Smith (Origins, Favorite Moments)
• [08:27] — Lightning Round Questions
• [12:04] — Beginning the Hunt for the Ring: Sauron, Gollum, and the setup
• [18:24] — Timeline and Chronology Disputes: Appendix B vs. Unfinished Tales
• [28:25] — Gollum’s nature, resilience, and the thematic link to hobbits
• [49:01] & [51:14] — Nazgûl mobilization and limitations as Sauron’s tools
• [64:32] — The Nazgûl’s journey: route and strategies
• [83:43] — Sauron, Saruman, and Wormtongue: treachery and redirection
• [96:12] — Nazgûl reach Sarn Ford; Rangers' last stand and implications
• [108:34] — Adaptation Discussion: “Hunt for Gollum” movie hopes & fears

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Conclusion

Alan and Matt expertly unpack the dense and sometimes conflicting lore behind the Hunt for the Ring, balancing deep textual scholarship with humor and warmth. Their respect for Tolkien’s craft, and their awareness of his storytelling quirks (and quirks of adaptation), set the stage for future episodes, where they’ll break down alternative versions and even more details about this iconic pursuit.

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For more lore, humor, and community, visit the Prancing Pony Podcast website, join the Patreon, or check out Today’s Tolkien Times and PPP social channels!

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Transcript

[Alan Sisto]

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[David Smith]

I put in the license plate. It gave me an offer.

[Alan Sisto]

Unbelievable. Okay, I accepted the offer. They're picking it up Tuesday from the driveway. I haven't even left my chair. It's done. The car is gone. I'm holding a check. Anyway, Carvana, give it a whirl. Love ya.

[Matt]

So good you'll want to leave a voicemail about it.

[Alan Sisto]

Sell your car today on pickup.

[Matt]

Fees may apply.

[Alan Sisto]

Good evening, little masters, and welcome to to episode 409 of the prancing Pony podcast, where, well, all my ordinary spies and emissaries can bring me no tidings.

[Matt]

That's because my own servants are waylaying or misleading yours. Folks, pull up a bench in the common room and join us. I'm Matt, the nerd of the rings. And I'm here with the man of the west whose arm is not yet long enough to reach me in the Midwest, Alan Sisto.

[Alan Sisto]

Guess I'll have to conceal my wrath and bide my time. Folks, join us as Gollum proves ultimately indomitable and we begin our four part look at the hunt for the Ring from Unfinished Tales.

[Matt]

Folks, no matter whether you came to Middle Earth through the books, the films, the TV show, or something else, each of you is welcome here in our common room. The Prancing Pony Podcast continues in our 10th season season of reading and talking our way through Middle Earth with conversations, digressions and even speculations.

[Alan Sisto]

Not to mention a Few puns and bad jokes here and there. I'm just waiting for the old man jokes that Matt's probably got.

[Matt]

They're coming.

[Alan Sisto]

Don't worry, they are. But our purpose is to dive deep into the lore, discuss the story, talk about our favorite characters and themes, Tolkien's inspirations and a whole lot more.

[Matt]

And while we take the work seriously, the same can't be said about ourselves. We're just a couple friends chatting at the pub. And we're glad you've joined us, and

[Alan Sisto]

I'm sure you'll be glad you joined as well. But before we get to today's chapter discussion, it's time to welcome one of our listeners to sit down with us in the North Wing.

[Matt]

Barlam and Butterbur had a room or two in the North Wing at the Prancing Pony Inn, made special for Hobbits. And this is our place, made special for some of our listeners to give us a chance to. To get to know them.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, rooms at the North Wing are hard to come by, so only our patrons at the Elrond's honorarium and Kieran's contribution tiers are eligible. If you'd like to be one of the next patrons to join us, be sure to check out patreon.com prancingponypod Please do.

[Matt]

We've got a waiting list for the North Wing right now, but we'll get to them all soon and we'll make room for more if necessary.

[Alan Sisto]

Excellent. Well, then, why don't we go ahead and welcome today's guest to the North Wing, David Smith.

[David Smith]

Good evening.

[Matt]

Or good morning, good day, at whatever time.

[Alan Sisto]

It's five o' clock somewhere. Right.

[Matt]

So, David, tell us a bit about yourself. Where are you from, what do you do, and what do your loved ones think of all this Tolkien stuff? You're into that kind of thing. Fill us in.

[David Smith]

Well, I'm retired. I was a computer programmer for many years. I was introduced to the Lord of the Rings by my father, who read the Hobbit to me, the Original Hobbit, in 64, I believe, from his copy that had been read to him when he was 10 years old. That started me on a lifelong quest to read and follow as much of it. My wife sort of tolerates it. My son is really Keenan. My son actually got me to go to my first moot.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, there you go. First moot's always a good one.

[David Smith]

So that's, you know, it runs the gamut.

[Alan Sisto]

All right, well, the question that we ask everyone who comes to the Prancing pony. When and how did you first discover Tolkien's works? What was your experience like, and what is it that keeps you coming back?

[David Smith]

Okay, well, I'm going to actually go back a bit to when my father was first introduced to Tolkien's works, which was in 38 or 39. Wow. He was 10 and he was sick, and his mother bought a copy of the Hobbit and read it to him.

[Alan Sisto]

Wow.

[David Smith]

So. And he still had that same copy when in 1964 or thereabouts, he started to read it to me. So I do not recall if he finished. He was not good at doing stuff with small children. But I did remember it enough so that when a friend of mine in ninth grade said, hey, you know, there's this book going around. You should like it. It's by this guy named Tolkien. It's got Hobbiton. I said, I. Hey, I remember Tolkien. I remember Hobbitz. Let's check it out. And then I said, this is not the Ring that I remember.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, that's right, because you. You were told the story from a 1938 or 39 version of the book.

[David Smith]

Exactly, exactly. So I read it, like 10 or 15 times that first year.

[Alan Sisto]

That's amazing. 10 or 15 times. That's fantastic. Like, what's a month powering through? Yeah, yeah.

[David Smith]

And then I started reading it to my younger siblings, and when I got married, I started reading it to my children.

[Alan Sisto]

Excellent. Reading out loud does make a difference, doesn't it?

[David Smith]

It does, it does. And I also would tell stories to my children. And I remember before they were old enough for me to read it to them, I did tell them stories that involved barrow whites. And they said afterwards that that was the scariest stories that I'd ever told them.

[Matt]

That is a pretty. Pretty darn scary part.

[Alan Sisto]

It is. I mean, people don't think of Tolkien as a horror author, but my goodness, he's. Dang, the stuff he writes. That's terrifying. Is really terrifying. Yeah.

[David Smith]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

No doubt about it. That's amazing.

[Matt]

Now, what is your favorite book in the legendarium? I know obviously you have a fondness for the Hobbit, but what. What is. Would you say is your favorite book, Hobbit or otherwise? And what's your favorite non legendarium book, if you have one?

[David Smith]

My favorite book is probably Baron and Luthien, all the versions of it, but I especially like the poem.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. The Lay of Laythean.

[David Smith]

Non legendarium Smith, the Wooten Major.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

A man after Sean's own heart. I would say in that case, that's his favorite. Any Tolkien goals that you'd like to share? Maybe tracking down a special book for your collection or going to another moot? Something like that.

[David Smith]

Someday I'd actually like to go to Oxenmut.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yes.

[David Smith]

My wife has no interest in talking whatsoever, so.

[Matt]

But does she have interest in Oxford?

[David Smith]

No, not so much, actually.

[Matt]

Oh, okay.

[Alan Sisto]

Wow. All right. Yeah, It's a fantastic place. And even if you're not a Tolkien fan, it's. There's so much history there. Yeah.

[Matt]

I was able to get my wife to go by saying, hey, do you want to go to London?

[Alan Sisto]

We'll do a day trip to Oxford.

[Matt]

By the way, we're also going to go to Oxford.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right.

[Matt]

For most of the trip.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. We'll punt on the Thames and, you know, all that kind of fun stuff. Yeah, good stuff. All right, well, let's go and get into a lightning round of quick questions and answers. Matt, you're up first.

[Matt]

All right. What is your favorite scene or moment in the legendarium?

[David Smith]

It varies from time to time, but if I wanted to pick one right now, I would say Finrod's rap battle with Sauron.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yeah, that is a good one. Well, what's the one place in Middle Earth that you wish you could visit?

[David Smith]

I think Rivendell. I love books and they have plenty of books there.

[Alan Sisto]

They certainly do.

[Matt]

Who is your favorite hobbit again?

[David Smith]

You know, that varies, I would have to say. You know what, I'm going to go off on a limb here. Rory Brandybuck.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, okay.

[David Smith]

He's very astute, kind of laid back. He was running Buckland and let his son go off gallivanting about and, you know, with no certain return. Because I suspect that Mary had cleared it with his dad before he took off.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I would imagine he'd almost have to.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Pippen, on the other hand, probably didn't really need to clear it, just went.

[David Smith]

And he also has a fondness for fine wine.

[Alan Sisto]

That is true. That is certainly true. All right, David, who's your favorite author or what's your favorite book, other than Tolkien?

[David Smith]

You know, I think I would have to be Patrick o'. Brien.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay. And for those who might not know him, what's he known for writing?

[David Smith]

Patrick o' Brien wrote a series of novels about the Napoleonic wars with a pair of. Well, one is a captain in the British Navy. The other one is a surgeon and spy. He started these in the 70s. He was kind of like originally thinking of three novel series, did it with as sort of the anti hornblower. But o' Brien was really influenced by Jane Austen.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, okay.

[David Smith]

And so his stories, really the. They're not so much the washbuckling type that you normally get with the Napoleonic literature, but much more novels of manners like Jane Austen, where the action oftentimes takes place off screen and the real story is the growing and dynamic relationship between the two main characters.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay, so that's the master and commander.

[David Smith]

Exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay, gotcha. I knew that sounded familiar. And I know that folks who have seen that film might want to pick up those books. All right, we got one more in this lightning round that hasn't been very lightning because we've just been enjoying the conversation. Matt, what's your last one?

[Matt]

What is your favorite Tolkien artist or work of art?

[David Smith]

I think John Howe. His are, you know, they're sort of darker than the Alan Lee ones.

[Alan Sisto]

That makes sense. Yeah, they are. Actually. I'm thinking of a few pieces in my head already that I can see, and they do tend to be a little more grim.

[Matt]

Yeah. And he did a lot of the darker concept art for Lord of the Rings back in the day. Yeah, like Minas Morgul and the Witch King and all that.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, exactly. All right, man, those are some great answers. David, thank you for joining us today. I really appreciate it.

[David Smith]

Thank you.

[Alan Sisto]

We have enjoyed having you here in the north wing, but it is time for us to head back into the common room and join the rest of the listeners.

[Matt]

Yeah, thanks again, David. Really appreciate you taking the time and joining us.

[Alan Sisto]

Yep, we'll see you next time.

[David Smith]

Okay, thank you.

[Alan Sisto]

And now we return you to the podcast in progress.

[Matt]

It's always nice to sit down with our listeners. Glad David could join us there. Well, the Ring isn't going to find itself. Shall we start, Alan, the Hunt for the Ring?

[Alan Sisto]

I don't know if we give the Ring enough time. It might.

[Matt]

Yeah, it might pop up.

[Alan Sisto]

All right. The Hunt for the Ring, Part one of the journey of the Black Riders. According to the account that Gandalf gave to Frodo, Gollum was captured in Mordor in the year 3017 and taken to Barad Dur. And there questioned and tormented. When he had learned what he could from him, Sauron released him and sent him forth again. He did not trust Gollum, for he divined something indomitable in him which could not be overcome even by the shadow of fear, except by destroying him. But Sauron perceived the depth of Gollum's malice towards those that had robbed him, and guessing that he would go in search of them to avenge himself. Sauron hoped that his spies would thus be led to the Ring. Gollum, however, was before long captured by Aragorn and taken to northern Mirkwood. And though he was followed, he could not be rescued before he was in safe keeping. Now, Sauron had never paid heed to the Halflings, even if he had heard of them and he did not yet know where their land lay. From Gollum, even under pain, he could not get any clear account both because Gollum indeed had no certain knowledge himself and because what he knew, he falsified. Ultimately indomitable he was, except by death as Sauron guessed both from his Halfling nature and from a cause which Sauron did not fully comprehend. Being himself consumed by lust for the Ring then he became filled with a hatred of Sauron even greater than his terror seeing in him truly his greatest enemy and rival. Thus it was that he dared to pretend that he believed that the land of the Halflings was near to the places where he had once dwelt beside the banks of the Gladden. Now Sauron, learning of the capture of Gollum by the chiefs of his enemies was in great haste and fear. Yet all his ordinary spies and emissaries could bring him no tidings. And this was due largely both to the vigilance of the Dunedain and to the treachery of Sodoman whose own servants either waylaid or misled the servants of Sauron. Of this Sauron became aware but his arm was not yet long enough to reach Sodom in Isengard. Therefore, he hid his knowledge of Sodomon's double dealing and concealed his wrath biding his time and preparing for the great war in which he planned to sweep all his enemies into the Western Sea.

[Matt]

Now, we'll spend all of our first episode on this chapter on what is identified here as part one of the chapter the Hunt for the Ring. We'll cover part two, called other versions of the story over weeks two and three.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. And then in the fourth week, we'll cover part three concerning Gandalf, Sodomon and the Shire. So if, as we're covering this part of the chapter, you seem to think something is amiss it doesn't jibe with how you remember the story. Just wait. It's probably a detail from one of the other versions of the story in part two.

[Matt]

And it's also important to note that this is described as an account given to Frodo by Gandalf. Frodo, of course, writing down the history sometime between the end of the War of the Ring in 3019 and the departure of Frodo, along with ring bearers Elrond, Galadriel, Gandalf and Bilbo in September 3021 two years later.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Now, we do see this in at least one other Third Age story here in Unfinished Tales. We. We covered it last year. But the Quest of Erebor was another of these stories written down by Frodo, relating the story as told by Gandalf. But much of that information was also included in Appendix A in the Lord of the Rings, while this story was not. Why not? Matt, what do you think? Why did Tolkien go through the effort of conveying most of the information that's in the Quest of Erebor in the text of the story? But this story doesn't get a lot of airplay, or the content of it doesn't. Yeah.

[Matt]

I wonder if, unless this is actually documented somewhere by Tolkien that I'm not familiar with, but I. I wonder if the. The headspace there is connecting those two stories. We know Tolkien went back and made a real effort to connect the Hobbit to the Lord of the Rings with the Lord of the Rings on the way. I wonder if. If that, you know, connecting it with the Quest of Erebor felt like a more natural thing rather than going into the intricacies of the Hunt for the Ring, perhaps. Maybe he also kind of focuses on the good guys for the most part in the Appendices. I noticed.

[Alan Sisto]

That's true. Yeah. A lot of. A lot of how good the Gondorians are.

[Matt]

Why wouldn't this be, though, in the. In, like, the main narrative of the story, too, is another question that I wonder.

[Alan Sisto]

I think part of that might just be because of the limited viewpoint that the text is written from. I mean, we're always getting the story in the Lord of the Rings from the least knowledgeable character. Nine times out of 10, it's one of the Hobbits. You know, when it's just Frodo and Sam, it's usually Sam's perspective. Otherwise, it's usually Pippin's perspective. Yeah, exactly.

[Matt]

We've talked about that many times.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, exactly. And it's a very. It's a very useful method that Tolkien uses, because even when, like, Gimli is retelling the story of the Paths of the Dead, it's Gimli retelling it, not Aragorn. It's the least knowledgeable of the characters, and it's always that way. And I think given that this story becomes untellable with that sort of style because only the ultimate narrator knows this. Only the person who can see all and is standing above the story can tell you, oh, this happened. And this piece got moved here at this time. And then this happened. And then, you know, that's just not how Tolkien tells his stories.

[Matt]

Yeah. And I also think, like, when would this naturally be told? And it would probably be at the Council of Elrond, which is already really long.

[Alan Sisto]

And we actually, that's the only place where we get any mention of the events of this. Right. Aragorn retelling some of his. His bit. So with that behind us, let's go and begin the story proper, which begins, the text tells us in 3017 when Gollum is captured in Mordor.

[Matt]

And we already have something to resolve here because in the Tale of Years Appendix B we read for the year 3017 that Gollum is released from Mordor, not captured by Mordor. And if you're thinking, well, he could have been captured by Mordor early in the year and released later in the year, well, stick around for a moment.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, we'll definitely talk through that. In fact, coming back to the Tale of years for 3009, so eight years before that, it tells us that Gandalf and Aragorn renew their hunt for Gollum at intervals during the next eight years. So talking from 3009 to 3117, searching in the Vales of Anduin, Mirkwood and Rhovanion to the confines of Mordor. At some time during these years, Gollum himself ventured into Mordor and was captured by Sauron.

[Matt]

So let's dive into this and see what we can find. We'll start with and actually end with Hammond and Skull's reader's companion for the Lord of the Rings. The must have resource for your next read through, by the way, 100%.

[Alan Sisto]

It's such an incredibly useful guide there in the section on Appendix B and this entry for the year 3009, we read the uncertain date for the capture of Gollum by Sauron. And the entry in the Tale of years for 3017 do not agree with dates given in the hunt for the Ring. Gee, really? That's exactly why we're here. That's why we're coming to you, Hammond and Skull. So what do you have?

[Matt]

They point out the discrepancies, starting with this line about Gollum being captured in 3017 and then pointing out quite a few very specific dates. We'll see as we Go through the versions of the story. So we've got the capture of Gollum by Aragorn that we mentioned earlier as taking place on February 1. Aragorn's journey of 900 miles in 50 days is getting to Thranduil on March 21. Which man. That is a heck of a haul.

[Alan Sisto]

I would walk 900 miles and I would walk 900 more just to be the man who dropped Smeargle at your door.

[Matt]

Right. And all the while you're listening to

[Alan Sisto]

we can't go farther.

[Matt]

Oh, my God.

[Alan Sisto]

Imagine biting. I mean, Aragorn retells this story like I love at the end and he stank.

[Matt]

Yeah, we get to.

[Alan Sisto]

We'll actually read that a bit. So I don't want to spoil it completely.

[Matt]

Okay, yeah, let's not spoil it too much. So then we have after that happens on March 21, we have Gandalf arriving there two days later, leaving on March 29 and reaching Hobbiton on April 12 after his own 800 mile journey. So not quite as long as Aragorn, but pretty close.

[Alan Sisto]

Plus he was on horse and plus you.

[Matt]

Yeah. Now that's April 12th. 3018 for those keeping track.

[Alan Sisto]

And that's the challenge. Right. If we know that that's in 3018, how does that square with these dates? Well, as Hammond and Skull point out, Appendix B was one of the last parts of the Lord of the Rings to be completed. Tolkien did not send it to Allen and unwin until early April 1955. And in compiling it, he abandoned some of the ideas he had tried out here in the Hunt for the Ring. They speculate that Tolkien might have decided to be less definite about the date of Gollum's capture by Sauron, since the only unreliable source for this date would be Gollum himself. And that makes sense. Coming back to that whole idea of we only can say the things that we have like historical narrators for.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, Tolkien trying to retell this as an actual history, but we don't know what. Gollum. Gollum's not gonna know.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

While I wrote it down, it was April 2nd, 3017. Come on.

[Matt]

I mean, we, we talk about how Elven or Manish history might be a bit skewed in its, you know, description of events. I mean, I can't imagine like, Gollum's description of events. It's like story, what really happened here?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I am trying to imagine that because of course he's done nothing wrong. It was my birthday present. They kicked me out and I Don't know why. Even though I killed people that spied on them.

[Matt]

And, yeah, Gandalf's like, what about those babies you ate in Mirkwood? Gollum.

[Alan Sisto]

I still think that might be an urban legend. I don't know.

[Matt]

I hope so.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, I mean, he's a bad guy, don't get me wrong, but I just feel like that's one of those.

[Matt]

It does kind of feel like one of those things. Like, oh, well, I heard. And it's like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

It gets worse in every retelling.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah. Now, Hammond and Skull add that Tolkien apparently also came to think that more time was needed between Aragorn's capture of Gollum and Gandalf's arrival in Hobbiton.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, and that makes sense because, I mean, you know, you can't have Aragorn's capture and Gandalf's arrival in Hobbiton be like a week apart. There's got to be time involved, even with these journeys that. I mean, there's no way you could cover 900 miles on foot in 50 days, Matt, let alone with a golem in your bag.

[Matt]

I know I couldn't.

[Alan Sisto]

And Aragorn's twice as old as you, right? Yeah.

[Matt]

Maybe you could. You work out. See, I'm.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, but I'm way behind on cardio, Matt.

[Matt]

Oh, okay.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, you just. But that's a good way to lose weight, you know?

[David Smith]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Drag Gollum 900 miles. Do it.

[Alan Sisto]

Drag it. A bag of Gollum for 900 miles for a month and a half.

[Matt]

Like a sack of potatoes.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. Well, I lost 30 pounds in 50 days. How do you do that? Well, you too, can do it. Just throw a golem in your bag. Anyway, speaking of those dates, though, Tolkien did some calculations on the carbon copy of the final typescript of Appendix B in the margins. So he's writing, like, in his hand on this final carbon copy all these details about the dates. We're going to spend more time in the postscript looking at those details.

[Matt]

After all the details we'll cover in the P5, Hammond and Skull conclude that Tolkien may have removed this history to 3017 in order to begin the section, the Great Years, with an event related in the direct narrative of the Lord of the Rings, Gandalf's arrival at Hobbiton on 12 April. 3018.

[Alan Sisto]

That makes sense because when you look at the actual tale of years in the Lord of the Rings as printed, the Great years begins with 3018 and 3019. And the very first entry is Ganof's arrival in Hobbiton. So it does feel a little odd if you have the first entry into the Great Years be Gollum released from Mordor. Like, that just doesn't. You know what I mean? It doesn't have the same impact as bringing in the direct players in the story. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah.

[Matt]

And I think it's. It's also probably easier for him to tweak things, you know, that are. That are notes to accompany his story rather than like, throwing off the entire timeline going forward through Lord of the Rings.

[Alan Sisto]

That's true. That is true. Well, folks, we promise we won't spend five minutes on every single sentence. Or. Or maybe we apologize for the fact that we won't spend five minutes in every single sentence. Yeah, but we feel like it was important to talk about that apparent discrepancy on 3017. 3018.

[Matt]

So with Gandalf needing to arrive in Hobbiton in April, 3018 having interrogated Gollum, Aragorn would need to have captured Gollum at the very beginning of 3018. But that means Gollum was released in 3017. Of course, he still could have been captured earlier in that same year.

[Alan Sisto]

That is true. But like we mentioned earlier, Tolkien may have dropped this specificity simply because Gollum would be the only source. And obviously he can't rely on Gollum to be accurate. That is.

[Matt]

No, I. Yeah, that goes without saying.

[Alan Sisto]

I think it really does. I mean, you know, not only can he not necessarily remember, I mean, he just. Even a normal person might not be able to remember having been tormented by the Black Lord. It would feel like a week, would feel like two years, you know?

[Matt]

Exactly. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And it's not like he's walking around with a journal, you know?

[Matt]

Yeah, And I'm sure it's like the opposite, but kind of the same as, like, a casino. You know, the lights are always off in Mordor, so it's going to be hard to tell time passage. It's like the lights always being on in the casino. So you don't know how long you don't know.

[Alan Sisto]

So are you saying that you have a gambling problem, Matt?

[Matt]

I'm not, but I steer clear of Mordor. That's all I say.

[Alan Sisto]

Smart man. Smart man. Yeah, no, I get that. All right, well, whenever he was captured, he was captured while in Mordor, so we should talk about this. Why would he have come here, Matt?

[Matt]

Because he's. He's looking for his precious man.

[Alan Sisto]

Does he really think it's back in Mordor? Because if it's in Mordor, Sauron's going to have it.

[Matt]

Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, he has a can do attitude and he has a can do attitude. He's like, if. If someone's gonna steal the Ring from under Sauron's nose, why not me?

[Alan Sisto]

That's right.

[Matt]

It's like the Miracle on Ice. Anything can happen. But I. I do believe it says in the text that he's, like, drawn by miracles. That's what Gollum was thinking as he's plunging down into the. Into the lava. But I do. I do believe it says somewhere in the text that. That he was like, drawn kind of by the evil of. Of Sauron, even.

[Alan Sisto]

I think. So that's the thing is, all evil was being drawn there, right?

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And when that happens, that also includes Gollum himself. For. For clear reasons.

[Matt]

Yeah, but we know that he was captured, and that means being taken to Baradur and subjected to torment. Not a nice place.

[Alan Sisto]

No.

[Matt]

Interestingly, we read that while Sauron released Gollum after getting all the info he could from him, he still did not trust Gollum, for he divined something indomitable in him.

[Alan Sisto]

I love that word right there. I mean, indomitable is a great word to begin with, but Tolkien's use of it here is perfect. Because if we go back to the Lord of the rings, book four, chapter 10, this is the choices of Master Samwise. Sam has just stabbed Shelob, or rather held up Sting as she thrust her belly down where she stabs herself on Sting. He's quietly called on Galadriel. And we read something just before this moment that his tongue was loosed and his voice cried in a language which he did not know. Then we get something even better, don't we?

[Matt]

We do. He says, come now, you filth. He cried. You've hurt my master, you brute. And you'll pay for it. We're going on, but we'll settle with you first. Come on and taste it again. As if his indomitable spirit had set its potency in motion, the glass blazed suddenly, like a white torch in his hand.

[Alan Sisto]

I love it. And Tolkien is so intentional with his word choice.

[Matt]

He is.

[Alan Sisto]

This is no accident. So we've got Sam being described as having an indomitable spirit. Let's look again. Book six, chapter three. This is Mount Doom. You and I did this a couple years ago.

[Matt]

That's right.

[Alan Sisto]

Sam and Frodo have turned their faces to the mountain and. And set out. And there we read this. Of all the slaves of the Dark Lord. Only the Nazgul could have warned him of the peril that crept small but indomitable into the very heart of his guarded realm. Love that line.

[Matt]

Yeah. And. And we've managed to say that word without any flubs.

[Alan Sisto]

I know. Can you believe it?

[Matt]

Four times.

[Alan Sisto]

Just one take.

[Matt]

Yeah, I know. That's is amazing. I'm sorry, that's really unprofessional for me to call it out, but I knew I was gonna say I'm imp, so I'm impressed.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. It's a good thing we don't have to say it again because you definitely just jinxed it if we did.

[Matt]

I did. Yeah. I, I looked ahead in our notes to see if it popped up in any quotes again. It doesn't.

[Alan Sisto]

And you're like, it doesn't come up again. I can say this.

[Matt]

Yeah, you are welcome. All right. But this also fits what we know of Hobbitz from the prologue. Nonetheless, ease and peace had left this people still curiously tough. They were, if it came to it, difficult to daunt or to kill. And they were perhaps so unwearyingly fond of good things. Not least because they could, when put to it, do without them and could survive rough handling by grief, foe or weather in a way that astonished those who did not know them well and looked no further than their bellies and their well fed faces. Though slow to quarrel and for sport killing nothing that lived, they were doughty at bay.

[Alan Sisto]

Doughty at bay. And that is describing the hobbits of the Shire. Not a single Hobbit by himself who's lived under the roots of the Misty Mountains for half a millennium and has learned how to choke goblins in the dark. I mean, you talk about surviving rough handling as difficult as a soft Shire hobbit is to daunt or kill. One imagines Gollum being a lot more difficult. I mean, he really is indomitable. Except by death.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And Sauron figured that whatever this indomitable nature was, I have to say it again. See, I don't know about you. It couldn't be crushed without killing Gollum himself. That's pretty incredible.

[Matt]

It is. Yeah. And it, I, I feel like it, it kind of goes hand in hand with, you know, Gandalf seeing that there was something good or ill to play out with Gollum. For his part, there, there's something within him and perhaps multiple things within him that, you know, that could factor in yet into the grand scheme of things. So it's kind of interesting that you see These. These two greater beings in Gandalf and Sauron both have kind of this feeling that there's more to Gollum than. Than maybe a simple Hobbit would see or, you know, a simple Ranger, even.

[Alan Sisto]

That's fair.

[Matt]

But Sauron could also see just how much Gollum hated the Thief Battens and figured he'd do more damage if freed and followed.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a pattern, isn't it? I mean, I know this is Sauron we've not seen do this before, but that immediately put me in mind of Morgoth and how he would capture some of the Noldor and release them and then nobody would trust them.

[Matt]

See where they go. Yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, you just did a reading from, from of the Children of Hurin, right, For Tolkien Reading Day. And it's kind of the same thing with, with Hudin. Like, yeah, Morgoth's like, I'm done with you now. You're going to do more damage if I let you go.

[Matt]

Right. Yeah. And, I mean, we see Hurin doesn't fully give away the location of Gondolin, but. No, Morgoth has a much better idea in the general region that Gondolin is because of where Hurin goes.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yeah, he absolutely does. Yeah. And then that's what enables him, through Maeglin, to eventually just. He wouldn't have known to go after Maeglin, right?

[Matt]

Yeah, he would. He. He knew the area to look in, to find someone else to capture and manipulate. So it was a domino in the. In the chain.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, it was.

[Matt]

So then back to the text. We read that before long he was captured by Aragorn. When we say before long, we're definitely referring to that February 1st date we'll see later, but also to Tolkien's later calculations, which we'll discuss in depth on the P5 where he figured it was more likely. January 1st through 3rd.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Now, here we're not told where Aragorn captured him, but the Lord of the Rings tells us that if we go back to the Council of Elrond, Aragorn retells the story. I too, despaired at last and I began my homeward journey. And then, by fortune, I came suddenly on what I sought the marks of soft feet beside a muddy pool. But now the trail was fresh and swift and it led not to Mordor but away along the skirts of the Dead marshes. I followed it, and then I had him lurking by a stagnant mirror peering in the water as the dark eve fell. I caught him, Gollum. So Caught by the dead marshes. Released maybe a week or two earlier, I guess somewhere in that range. Couldn't be much longer it would take him. Yeah, yeah. He would already be far and away north of there by now.

[Matt]

Yeah, absolutely. We also get a preview of the rest of this story in Aragorn's comments at the council. Now he's speaking about Gollum here and he says he was covered with a green slime. He will never love me, I fear, for he bit me and I was not gentle. Nothing more did I ever get from his mouth than the marks of his teeth. I deemed it the worst part of all my journey, the road back. Watching him day and night making him walk before me with a halter on his neck gagged until he was tamed by lack of drink and food driving him ever towards Mirkwood. I brought him there at last and gave him to the elves for we had agreed that this should be done. And I was glad to be rid of his company, for he stank. For my part, I hope never to look upon him again. But Gandalf came and endured. Long speech with him and we'll talk about that road back as we move along. Just keep all that in mind. Especially the stank.

[Alan Sisto]

I was going to say, it's really important. Yeah. Though I'm still stuck on he bit me and I was not gentle. That just sounds like a whole nother kind of conversation, but. So Sauron's spies had followed Aragorn that entire time. By the way, he could not be rescued before he was in safekeeping. Was Aragorn himself enough of a threat to Sauron's emissaries and spies that they couldn't gang up? Or maybe they just didn't have enough of them. I mean, Aragorn's a mighty guy, there's no doubt. But if you've got 20 people, you get a distraction, you get him chasing you. Then you get somebody else sneaking in and grabbing Gollum.

[Matt]

Grab Gollum? Yeah, yeah, you would think. I mean, I mean, maybe, maybe it is, you know, smaller, like pairs of scouts or something and it's not. Not enough people. I mean, Aragorn's a pretty mighty dude. We do also know that, you know, as he gets closer to Mirkwood, he has help. We see. You know, yeah, Bay Awnings, you know, presumably, you know, there's elves there in Lorien. Like we. We've got.

[Alan Sisto]

That's fair. Depending on how the road he takes back. Yeah, that's fair. It's just one of those things. Like what do you mean he couldn't be rescued for he's in safekeeping. You caught him at the Dead Marshes and you let him get 900 miles to Thranduil's halls?

[Matt]

Yeah. You feel. It feels like a pretty perilous place that you're traipsing about in the Dead Marshes. It's not exactly a fortress that he's behind here.

[Alan Sisto]

That is true.

[Matt]

Yeah. And showing just how inadequate his intelligence gathering was we learned that Sauron didn't know where the Halflings lived and might not even have heard of them in the first place.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, Gollum didn't know, of course. I mean, he'd encountered Bilbo under the mountains and he'd never followed him as far as the Shire. We know that he did follow the path. He'd made it all the way to Dale, at least, but. But he never made it all the way back over across the Misty Mountains. And then you've got the other problem. It's because he's Gollum. Everything that he did tell Sauron, he pretty much lies about. I mean, he's Gollum. Even the truth that he says is going to be distorted by lies.

[Matt]

That's right. Yeah. And we get the indomitable word again. Gollum is described as ultimately indomitable, except by death.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, the text gives us two reasons for this indomitable nature, one of which we already mentioned, right? His halfling nature, doughty at bay. Indomitable spirit. That's just who Hobbits are. But the other is a cause which Sauron did not fully comprehend. And that's the cause of Gollum, who is consumed by lust for the Ring. That I think, is even more important than his Hobbit nature. I mean, it's sort of. I mean, it's a compound. I don't know. Would he have been this indomitable if he was just a man instead of a Hobbit consumed by lust for the Ring? I don't know. It's almost like you really need both elements here. But the fact that he desires the Ring more than anything makes him a really formidable foe.

[Matt]

Yeah. This brings up an interesting point. Like you said, would it be different if he's a man? Like, is there something about the indomitable spirit of Hobbits that, like, makes them even more? Like, once they fall into the Ring, are they even more attached to it than, like, a human would be? Because of how hard they are. You know, in a way, they're kind of hard to win over. Or, like, corrupt by their nature and. But, like, if you get one, they're really locked in.

[Alan Sisto]

That could be. I mean, you know, Bilbo and Frodo are the only two to ever have the Ring. Two Hobbits to have the Ring. So you wonder like huh. Would the Hobbits have reacted differently than men if they were to have a ring of power for a long period of time? I don't know. It's a good question.

[Matt]

I mean obviously Bilbo has it and manages to give it up but it takes some coke.

[Alan Sisto]

Barely. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[Matt]

But you know his, his time with the ring is a lot different than Gollum's though. We. It is much different from the get go. From the jump.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, he didn't kill anybody to get it and that's what helps. That's right.

[Matt]

Yeah, it does help. Believe it or not. Now that lust for the ring causes Gollum to actually hate Sauron more than he fears him. Which seems kind of impossible, but yeah. And yeah, he's a rival now.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right.

[Matt]

And, and this leads Gollum daring to pretend that he knew where the Shire was near to the Gladden Fields where he'd once lived. Which I know where the Hobbits live. They.

[Alan Sisto]

They live down the street from me.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah. Which I mean, to be fair, his people are Hobbits, you know, so it's kind of not lying to say that Hobbits once lived there.

[Alan Sisto]

It's fair. It's fair. It's just totally different Hobbits. But yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matt]

It's not answering the question truthfully but

[Alan Sisto]

you know, which makes me wonder how much of this Sauron believed. I mean we know he believed. It's not so much that he believed Gollum but he didn't know where else to start. So yeah, when he ends up as we'll see later on sending his guys out to look, that's the first place they go. But he can't honestly believe that Gollum knows all this or that he's being truthful or both.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah. Well, and it perhaps that is some insight into. You know a common question that I get is why did Sauron let him go? You know?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Why don't you just kill him? Yeah, right. Yeah. Like do you kill him or do

[Alan Sisto]

I have a Ringling around somewhere? Maybe I can turn him into a wraith. A little mini wraith. Yeah, it's like the Witch King's mini me.

[Matt]

That's right. I do love the visual of like oh, if you. Frodo would have succumbed. He would have became a Ringwraith. It's like a very short ring.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly.

[Matt]

But yeah, you wonder like, okay, is it like, hey, Gollum could at least go out there and you know, shake things up and like get the ring out in the open, so to speak. Which benefits Sauron, obviously.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, it does. It's true. So after all of this, Sauron learns that Gollum has been taken by the chiefs of his enemies. Now as a Raiders fan, I just think of the chiefs are my enemies, not the chiefs of his enemies. But that's another point. Specifically Aragorn and Gandalf. Right. These aren't just some guys that are on the wrong side. These are the guys Aragorn and Gandalf. And he's not only afraid, let's be honest, Sauron's afraid a lot.

[Matt]

He's a big scaredy pants.

[Alan Sisto]

He is. I know. Always. So he's in a big hurry now but his lackeys can't bring him any news. And it's not just because the Rangers are on it and paying attention. It's because Saruman keeps getting in the way.

[Matt]

Yeah, and this is, this is a thing that I think a lot of people don't realize is Sauron knows that Saruman's betraying him.

[Alan Sisto]

Yep.

[Matt]

But he also knows he's not in a position to do anything about it yet.

[Alan Sisto]

I love the text. His arm was not yet long enough and I'm just picturing him with little T. Rex arms.

[Matt]

Yes. He doesn't let on that he knows. He keeps playing dumb when it comes to Saruman. You know, after all, Sauron thinks when I wipe the map of everyone else I can include Saruman in that as well.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. And of course he's not going to, you know, tip his, his hand at all.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

To Saruman. Let Saruman buddies. That's right. Keep, you know, giving himself more rope. I mean that's. And we'll see. He knows and he eventually, when Saruman figures out that Sauron knows it's one of those terrifying moments like I am in deep trouble. But we'll get to that. As a dad to two kids, I know how important it is to make sure that they get the nutrients their bodies and brains need. I might not be able to change their picky eating or their craving for less than ideal foods, but I can make sure that they get the nutrients they need for healthy growth and development with First Day daily multivitamins. First Day makes clean science backed multivitamins for kids, teens and adults. 0 added sugars, no dyes or artificial ingredients. Instead, you're looking at nine essential vitamins for brain and mood support and a superfood blend of 12 organic fruits and vegetables. Just two gummies a day in your kid's nutrition and health, mood and sleep get the support they need. There's also a 45 day money back guarantee so you can try it with full confidence. Clinically absorbable, family safe, actually effective for a limited time only. Our listeners are getting an insane deal. Use Code Pony to get up to 57% [e-mail] that's up to 57% off and a free gift with code [e-mail] after you purchase they'll ask where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them we sent you. Lately, I've been trying to be more intentional about choosing what I wear each day. I find myself gravitating towards easy and comfortable, especially in spring. Now you're not going to be surprised to learn that Quince continues to be my go to the fabrics feel upscale, the fits are just right and and everything works without me having to put a ton of thought into it. Quince has all the spring staples for your wardrobe. 100% European linen shorts and shirts from only 34 bucks soft 100% Pima cotton tees. I might have bought a few more of these than I really need. I like them a lot and their jeans are perfect. I'm up to three pairs now with different fits and colors. All fit and look great and one of the other reasons I really like quints is is that they work directly with ethical manufacturers, cutting out the middleman. You get quality product made fairly but without the markup. Refresh your everyday with luxury you'll actually use. Head to quince.com pony for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q U I n c e.com pony for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com pony you've got weight loss goals, but actually reaching them is proving a bit tough. That's where Weight Loss by HIMSS comes in. It's designed to support you in your efforts to lose weight and keep it off and HIMS now provides an affordable range of FDA approved GLP1 medications, including the Wegovy Pill and the Wegovy Pen. With WeGovy at HIMSS lose up to 20% or more of your body weight when you combine it with diet and exercise. WeGovy helps regulate your appetite so you eat less and reach your goal. Everything's done online you'll be connected with a licensed provider who will determine if treatment is right for you. Then your prescribed medication is delivered to your door. You get 247 access to messaging with your care team, lifestyle and nutrition support through the app, recipes, meal plans and more. So are you ready to reach your goals? Visit hims.com pony to get a personalized, affordable plan that gets you that's h I m s.com pony hims.com pony Weight loss by HIMSS is not available in all 50 states. WeGovy is the registered trademark of Novo Nordisk as To get started and learn more, including important safety information, WeGovy, clinical study information and restrictions, visit hims.com. Now. Soon we'll get back to Sauron using his most powerful tools. And when you have a sledgehammer, folks, everything's a nail. But before we do, I want to take a minute to thank the amazing community that has grown up around this show over the past decade. After all, there's a lot more talk going on at the Prancing Pony Podcast than just us.

[Matt]

The PPP really does have a warm and welcoming listener community. If you've got questions or just want to talk about how much you love Middle Earth, be sure to check out our Common room on Facebook and across all social media. On Facebook, just look for the Prancing Pony Podcast. Yep, there's a page, but you're going to want to join the group for that great fan community now on every

[Alan Sisto]

social media platform other than Facebook. We are at Prancing Pony Pod and you can find our subreddit at R. Prancing Ponybod and be sure to check out my Daily Show. That's today's Tolkien Times. It's on YouTube and all your favorite podcast apps. Great place for you to get your daily Middle Earth fix with everything from Tolkien Tuesdays to Third Age Thursdays. Be sure to watch or [e-mail] Prancing Pony Pod. Matt, you pick up after that.

[Matt]

At length he resolved that no others would serve him in this case but his mightiest servants, the Ringwraiths, who had no will but his own being, each utterly subservient to the ring that had enslaved him, which Sauron held now. Few could withstand even one of these fell creatures, and as Sauron deemed, none could withstand them when gathered together under their terrible captain, the Lord of Morgul. Yet this weakness they had for Sauron's present purpose, so great was the terror that went with them, even invisible and unclad, that their coming forth might soon be perceived and Their mission be guessed by the wise. So it was that Sauron prepared two strokes in which many after saw the beginnings of the War of the Ring. They were made together. The Orcs assailed the realm of Thranduil with orders to recapture Gollum and the Lord of Morgul was sent forth openly to battle against Gondor. These things were done towards the end of June 3018. Thus Sauron tested the strength and preparedness of Denethor and found them more than he had hoped. But that troubled him little, since he had used little force in the assault and his chief purpose was that the coming forth of the Nazgul should appear only as part of his policy of war against Gondor. Therefore, when Osgiliath was taken and the bridge broken Sauron stayed the assault and the Nazgul were ordered to begin the search for the Ring. But Sauron did not underesteem the powers and vigilance of the wise and the Nazgul were commanded to act as secretly as they could. Now, at that time, the chieftain of the Ringwraiths dwelt in Minas Morgul with six companions while the second to the chief, Khamul, the Shadow of the east, abode in Dol Guldur as Sauron's lieutenant with one other as his messenger.

[Alan Sisto]

Can I just add that I really am debating whether or not I like your English pronunciation of lieutenant.

[Matt]

I know, right? I did. I'm used to, like.

[Alan Sisto]

No, it's cool. It's cool.

[Matt]

I'm used to doing it in, like, the readings when I'm doing the voice. And so I was like, that's how Tolkien was. This is weird. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

That's how Tolkien.

[Matt]

There's no F, though. It's so weird. It's such a weird word, right?

[Alan Sisto]

It all goes back to, like, the. About the 14th century, there was a. A misreading or a mishearing of that French word. So the U, probably a misreading because the U might have been written down as a V, as it sometimes was. And the problem was that V was

[Matt]

pronounced as an F. So it's all a mistake.

[Alan Sisto]

It's all a mistake. The left tenant part of it is a mistake. Yeah. So because the word actually evolves from French lieu, place and tenant, which is holding. So it's basically, you know, acting in authority. You know, you get your authority from a senior officer. So the. The left tenant part, the part of it with the F has to do with the U being written like a V accidentally or on purpose and then the V being Pronounced like an F instead of the U because that's how V's were pronounced.

[Matt]

That's. That's bonus content is what we call that, folks.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. So stymied by both the Rangers and Sodom and Sauron realizes he has to use the ace of his sleeves, so to speak. All nine of them, the Ringwraiths. And we get a really telling line about them here. And I like this. They have no will but his own. Let's talk about that. They have literally no. They cannot rebel against it because they have no will of their own. Right. Interesting.

[Matt]

Yeah. Because I do see folks questioning like, well what? Couldn't the ring wraiths betray them? Why couldn't the Witch King get the ring and then take it for his own?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Couldn't he become Sauron says it here.

[Matt]

He had.

[Alan Sisto]

There's.

[Matt]

They have no will except the will of Sauron.

[Alan Sisto]

They are literally minimis of Sauron in that sense. They have no independent will. It's really interesting. And it's not because they're completely and fully obedient to Sauron. They're subservient to the ring that had enslaved them, which he then held, as we find out.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah. It says in the text that Sauron holds those rings and therefore he is in total control.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a pretty common question. Yeah.

[Matt]

We're often asked, you know, if the Nazgul are wearing their rings, when would they have given them over or had them taken by Sauron?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah. What's the deal with the rings? I mean, obviously they had to wear and wield those rings early on to become enraithified, if you.

[Matt]

What they are. Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Right, right. So at what point does he take them? I don't know. There's nothing, you know, in the writings that tells us. My hunch is that it was even perhaps before Sauron allowed himself to be captured by Numenor.

[Matt]

Yeah, I mean, I kind of lean toward my. My thinking and I'm partially doing this on the spot here, but I wonder if it wouldn't. Wouldn't have had to have been early on as they are the Nazgul. Like after they've, like you said, been Wraith. The fried. Wraithified.

[Alan Sisto]

Wraith. The fried. I like that.

[Matt]

Wrath of Fried.

[Alan Sisto]

That's like the special carnival version. That's the carnival version of the Nazca.

[Matt]

Like a put them in batter and dip them in the grease and that's Right. Cooking. But after they've been wraithified. I almost wonder if it wouldn't have been that. Because if they're going to rebel against him, it's going to be, you know, kind of during. During that time after they've been Wraithified

[Alan Sisto]

when they're really angry at having been

[Matt]

in about being wraithified. Yes, exactly. If he takes their rings then, then, then he has the control. He's controlling what controls them at that point.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. It's a really good question about the, the Nazgul's rings. I mean people ask that one a lot. As well as the question of could the Nazgul betray. Betray Sauron? Tolkien writes a really good letter explaining that as well. I think we talked about a little bit when we talked about alternative versions of the scene at Mount Doom. What if the Nazgul had arrived there in time to stop Frodo and he

[Matt]

had claimed the ring? Yeah, right.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, and what we find out is that they would have pretended to be Frodo's, you know, servants until they could take the ring.

[Matt]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Because they were. They were Saurons. They belonged holy to him.

[Matt]

Yeah, right. Yeah. It's an interesting distinction, but an important one. And we're also told here that few could withstand a Nazgul and that Sauron believed no one at all could do that when they were all together under the Witch King.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, I sure don't want to find out. Right.

[Matt]

Yeah. Who's going to test it? You know? Seems like a solid theory. Sauron. Good guess.

[Alan Sisto]

I might be able to. To. Then again, I don't want to try. I don't even know. And we've talked about Gandalf's power.

[Matt]

I was going to say we did we see Gandalf. What is it with takes on like four of them or something like that? I mean he.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, that's Gandalf the Gray at Weathertop.

[Matt]

Yeah, Gandalf the Gray at Weathertop to a stalemate.

[Alan Sisto]

Right. He doesn't defeat them. He doesn't. He doesn't kill them, but he does drive them away. Yeah, he drives a few away as Gandalf the White as they're chasing Faramir back. The rear guard protecting the retreat. And then he stands up against the Witch King himself one on one. But again we don't see the. The finale of those face offs.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Like what would have happened if the horns of the Rohirrim had not blown and distracted the Witch King. Yeah, I still don't think he could have broken Gandalf staff. No, it's a pretty even fight if you ask me.

[Matt]

But yeah, it's Definitely not the way it's written. It's definitely. It definitely doesn't feel like a sure thing that Gandalf is just. He's not going to go in there and wipe the floor with the Witch King.

[Alan Sisto]

No, no, he's not. And know that even if he could defeat the Witch King, could he defeat all nine?

[Matt]

Yeah, all nine.

[Alan Sisto]

The Witch King. I don't know. Yeah, so that's a fair conclusion, Sauron.

[Matt]

Right?

[Alan Sisto]

We believe you.

[Matt]

Good. Yeah, yeah, good analysis.

[Alan Sisto]

But there's a problem with having all this power. They're so terrifying. How terrifying are they that they're not exactly stealthy.

[Matt]

That's right. And more than that, we read that their mission might be guessed by folks like Gandalf, Elrond, Galadriel, et cetera. Even Saruman is in that agreement.

[Alan Sisto]

That's the thing. When the enemy uses a tool like that, it's impossible to hide it.

[Matt]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

And so then you're like, okay, what in the world is he sending the Nazgul out for? There must be something really important. What is the import? Oh, the Ring. That's what it is. So Sarah was like, I can't send them out because that'll tell everybody that that's what I'm doing.

[Matt]

Yeah, can't. Can't send them out with trumpets blaring at their departure.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, you know these are. Yeah, exactly. Boromir, it would be wise not to win that horn again until you. Yeah, but I'm. I always blow it. When we see.

[Matt]

I always blow this horn.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, but you never set for forth on secret missions like this before, Boromir. So in an effort to disguise his real purpose, remember, he wants to use them to get news about Gollum and the Ring because his spies couldn't get him any information. In order to do that, he creates a diversion and the Orcs attack Thranduil's realm specifically to recapture Gollum. And once again we find that the Wood Elves of northern Mirkwood are totally incompetent as jailers. At the same time, the Witch King himself is then sent openly against Gondor.

[Matt]

Yeah, and the story here says towards the end of June, 3018. And the tale of years says June 20th is when Sauron attacked Osgiliath and Thranduil was attacked, allowing Gollum to escape. Now sure, it turns out Denethor was more ready than he would have preferred but Sauron's totally cool with that. The real purpose was just to disguise the reason he'd sent the Nazgul out.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, and that's a valid reason to send the biggest, baddest weapon you've got is to test the strength of your enemy. So after the bridge was destroyed, and that would be the bridge across the Anduin towards Minas Tirith. From that side of Osgiliath, Sauron had the Nazgul begin their search. Now, he still tried to have them do it as secretly as they could, given the terror and power we talked about earlier.

[Matt]

And we'll get a look at that terror in the next reading. For now, though, we get a brief rundown of who is where in terms of the Nazgul.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Who's on first, what's on second, which king's on third? The Witch King, Lord of Morgul, Chieftain of the Ringwraiths, whatever you want to call him, apparently, has called. Bob is stationed at Minas Morgul with six others, so there's seven there. And in the meantime, Kamul, who is the only named Nazgul, is down in Dol Guldur with one of the others as a messenger.

[Matt]

Now we have another slight complication. The Tale of Years says that in 2951, Sauron sent three Nazgul to occupy Dol Guldur. But Christopher says this conflict can be resolved by simply assuming that One of those three went back to Minas Morgul between 2951 and 3018.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I mean, he got more than 65 years there, so, of course, one of them could be like, you know, I'm going to go back to Minas Morgul.

[Matt]

I'm going to check in on the other guys, see how they're doing.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Christopher thinks, though, that it is more likely that the formulation of the present text was superseded when the Tale of Years was compiled. And a reminder, folks, the Tale of Years was written just before Return of the King was published, so long after this had been written. And it may be noted that in a rejected version of the present passage, there was only one Nazgul in Dol Guldur not named as Kamul, but referred to as the second chief, the Black Easterling, while one remained with Sauron as his chief messenger. Okay, so that certainly gives us the idea that we've already talked about before, that Camul is probably the second most powerful behind the Witch King. Yes, and so that's why he's the lieutenant sent to. To take care of Dol Guldur.

[Matt]

Not the right tenant, the lieutenant.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Yeah.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

It's about time he gets a promotion. He's been the lieutenant forever. He should at least be you know, Lieutenant Commander by now, you would think. Or even Captain, depending on, you know, what. What ranking system you're using. Yeah.

[Matt]

You know, when you're. When you're just stretched, like the way that they are over two, you know, butter over too much bread. You know, the years. It takes a lot of years to get that. That pay raise, I guess.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, that's the thing. And he needs to get to the next tier so that his retirement is better.

[Matt]

Yeah, that's right. Yeah. We get a lot of detail on Camul as well. In the rest of the footnote to this passage, it says it was Kamul who came to Hobbiton and spoke to Gaffer Gamgee who followed the Hobbits along the road to Stock and who narrowly missed them at the Buckleberry Ferry.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, of course, as we remember from the story, he had one of the other Nazgul with him. That was the rider whom he summoned by cries on the ridge above Woodhall and with whom he visited Farmer Maggot. The footnote telling us that that was his companion. Companion from Dol Guldor.

[Matt]

And I just love the fact that the name Nazgul we know is the one who's told to buzz off by Farmer Maggot.

[Alan Sisto]

I do love that. Absolutely love it. Maggot's one of my favorite characters. I was surprised that nobody picked him as their unlikely hero. I came pretty close. That came pretty close. I ended up, as you know, I landed on Baragon. But it was a tough call not to go with Farmer Maggot.

[Matt]

Farmer Maggot's pretty fantastic. Yeah. Now, finally, we read of Kamul. It is said here that he was the most ready of all the Nazgul after the black captain himself to perceive the presence of the ring, but also the one whose power was most confused and diminished by daylight.

[Alan Sisto]

Just get the man some sunglasses. I mean, like, how about just a nice pair of Ray Ban Wayfarers, huh? I mean, help a man out. It's like he's been in the darkness. He comes out, he can't see. He's just trying to blind. Try to shield his eyes. It is interesting to think of the weaknesses of the Nazgul.

[Matt]

Yeah, right. That's also something, I think gets lost a lot of times, you know, especially in adaptation, where it's like they seem

[Alan Sisto]

like they're all powerful boogeymen, you know?

[Matt]

Yeah. The interesting thing that, you know, you can. You can kind of miss. You do get a hint of it, I would say, in the adaptation, when Frodo puts on the ring and it's like, yes. Oh, that's. That's actually making you more visible to them. That's not. That's not at all doing what you want it to.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, it's the opposite of what you want. Yeah, it's. It is a tough thing to convey, I think, in adaptation I mean, unless you have them crossing a river. But we'll get to that later.

[Matt]

Well, now it's time to do yet another reading. Shall we dive on here, Alan?

[Alan Sisto]

The Lord of Morgul therefore led his companions over Anduin unclad and unmounted and invisible to eyes and yet a terror to all living things that they passed near. It was maybe on the first day of July that they went forth. They passed slowly and in stealth through Anorien and over the Entwade and so into the Wold and rumor of darkness and a dread of men knew not what went before them. They reached the west shores of Anduin a little north of Sarngeber as they had trysted and there received horses and raiment that were secretly ferried over the river. This was, it is thought, about the 17th of July. Then they passed northward seeking for the Shire, the land of the halflings. About 22 July they met their companions the Nazgul of Dol Guldur in the field of Celebrant. There they learned that Gollum had eluded both the Orcs that recaptured him and the Elves that pursued them and had vanished. They were told also by Kamuul that no dwelling of Halflings could be discovered in the vales of Anduin and that the villages of the stoors by the gladden had long been deserted. But the Lord of Morgul, seeing no better counsel determined still to seek northward hoping maybe to come upon Gollum as well as to discover the Shire. That this would prove to be not far from the hated land of Lorien seemed to him not unlikely if it was not indeed within the fences of Galadriel but the power of the White Ring he would not defy nor enter yet into Lorien Passing therefore between Lorien and the mountains and the nine rode ever on into the north and terror went before them and lingered behind them. But they did not find what they sought nor learn any news that availed them. At length they returned but the summer was now far waned and the wrath and fear of Sauron was mounting. When they came back to the Wold, September had come and there they met messengers from Barad Duration conveying threats from their master that filled Even the Morgul Lord with dismay for Sauron had now learned of the words of prophecy heard in Gondor and the going forth of Boromir of Sodoman's deeds and the capture of Gandalf.

[Matt]

All right, so now we get to the beginning of the actual hunt for the Ring. The Witch King and his six buddies crossing the river on July 1st. On foot, though. And, well, naked.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, on foot and naked. That's. That's an interesting way to be. Fortunately, they are also transparent.

[Matt]

Interesting way to travel.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, well, you know, you never have to pick up your bag at baggage claim if that's how you travel.

[Matt]

True.

[Alan Sisto]

There's some advantages to that. It does get a little cold on the plane. And the worst part is getting arrested. Well, getting. I think it is an Asgul who nobody knows that they're unclad. But the problem is somebody thinks, oh, that aisle seat is empty. I'll just sit.

[David Smith]

Wow.

[Matt]

I was gonna say, the one thing it makes more convenient, I guess, is if you get flagged for a TSA manual check.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. Special investigation. Yeah. All right, so being naked and on foot though, that keeps them completely invisible, right? We know it's the clothes that give them shape. And they can't exactly hide horses so they got to go on foot. But they do still have this problem of a wide ranging area of effect called cause terror.

[Matt]

Slowly and carefully they head through Anorian, then north over the Antwaid and into the Wold of Rohan, terrifying everyone that they get near.

[Alan Sisto]

That's the thing. I mean, how do you hide yourself when you have this massive effect on everything that you're near? Yeah, they reach their meeting point and this is interesting. It's said to be a little north of Sarngebir. Now remember that Osgiliath is the only place south of the Undeeps where they could have crossed the Anduin.

[Matt]

Which does somewhat beg the question, why not stay on the east side of the Anduin, meet the Dol Guldur crew near the Undeeps, then cross there.

[Alan Sisto]

I have to say that makes a lot more sense. You know, it's safer for them. They're not going to cause terror in lands where nobody is. The Dol Guldur side is already on the right side of the river. They're on the east side, so you don't have to worry about them crossing the river. It just seems to be a lot more sense to have them stay on the east side and then cross together at the on deeps. But anyway, they're the nazgul they're not always the brightest. They are. They are really strong. But quick aside, by the way, on the use of the word trist here, because in modern English, trist typically referring to a secret romantic rendezvous.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

But the word actually dates back to 1200. And the word trist T, R I S T E meaning appointed station. And that's from an old French variant that meant waiting place or appointed station where hunters await game. And it's from the same proto Indo European root that we see in words like troth. They plighted their troth as well as trust, truth and true. And I just thought that was really something we should look at real quick. I thought the hunting origin is particularly fitting given what they're doing here.

[Matt]

Yeah, given. That's the title of the ring particular section of the book.

[Alan Sisto]

Appointed Station Where Hunters await Game.

[Matt]

Now back to the text. They'd agreed beforehand to meet a little north of Sarn Gibir on the west side of the Anduin. And that's where they got horses and some fresh black robes that had been delivered onto that side of the river.

[Alan Sisto]

So finally they can get dressed geographically. Try to remember Sarngebir. That's the rapids north of Nenhithoil and the Argonath. And this did take place on July 17. Now, the date does not show up in the Tale of Years that's just given to us here. It's July 17th. If you look at the Tale of Years, the only dates after the crossing of The Anduin on July 1, first that are listed in Appendix B are the 4th of July when Boromir left Minas Tirith, and the 10th of July, when Gandalf was imprisoned in Orthanc. And this is a week later on the 17th.

[Matt]

Yeah, July 4th. He should have shut off some fireworks instead of blowing his horn there. So they head north looking for the Shire. Remember that. They think it's in the veils of Anduin, so they're not looking to cross the misty Mountains.

[Alan Sisto]

True.

[Matt]

Five days later, on July 22, they meet up with Khamul and the other Dol Guldur Nazgul at the Field of Celebrant.

[Alan Sisto]

Again, this makes me wonder. Why didn't Kamual and his buddy bring the horses and robes here and meet the Minas Morgul crew with them? I mean, why stop and get horses and robes at Sarngebir on the west side of the river when you're going to meet up with your colleagues at Calabrant?

[Matt]

Which brings me back to the original question about their crossing the Anduin. Since that can only be done at Osgiliath and the Undeeps. Unless you go up near the Karak. Why not just stay on the east side of the river, unhorsed and unclothed, until you get to the Undeeps, where you meet Kamu and friend, then all nine cross the river there?

[Alan Sisto]

It does seem to make so much more sense. I'm not sure why Tolkien has them doing this, other than to show us the effect of that terror. Because you wouldn't see that on the east side of the river. Nobody's living in the Dead Marshes or that side of the Emin Mobile or the Brown Lands. Those are all empty places. Yeah. So the two Dol Guldur Nazgul had at least some news. Right. Gollum had not only been freed from the Elvish jail, I mean, once again, incompetent jailkeepers, he had also managed to escape the Orcs that broke him out. He's simply gone.

[Matt]

Yeah. And Tolkien writes in a footnote here that Gollum had indeed, in his terror of the Nazgul, dared to hide in Moria.

[Alan Sisto]

That's kind of desperation mode, I would imagine.

[Matt]

It's not the best place to hang out.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, no, but you got to get yourself away from the Nazgul.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

So Kamuul is full of good news today. Not only has Gollum escaped, but there are no Hobbit dwellings or villages in the Vales of Anduin. There was one place, but it had been long deserted. Still, the Witch King thinks, where else can we go? I mean, if we go there, at least we might be able to find Gollum even if we don't find the Shire.

[Matt]

Yeah. He realizes there's a possibility that this Shire could be near or maybe even within the land of Lorien. Now, that would indeed be a problem. He's not going to challenge Galadriel's power with Nenya in her possession.

[Alan Sisto]

So that brings me to a question. The only thing I can draw from that is that Sauron knew that Galadriel had Nenya and therefore had also told Kamuul. Is there anything we know about the bad guys knowing who has the ring? Who has the rings? I should say the three Elvish rings. The fact that they know she has it is problematic.

[Matt]

It's significant. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. It's just interesting here I thought it might be the first time we've seen anything that provides clear evidence that they knew she had a ring.

[David Smith]

Right.

[Matt]

Yeah. I mean, maybe over the. The millennia, the centuries and millennia, it's like, hey, you know, that land is it's still really nice over there. Have you noticed? We've managed to gunk up the rest of this area, but that place. That place is still really nice. That's the best house in the neighborhood.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. And we can't seem to do anything to it. So they skirt the border of Lorien between it and the Misty Mountains. And I find that interesting too, because that means they went to the west of Lorien, right up into the foothills of the Misty Mountains. Why do they just go to Mirkwood and travel north through Mirkwood, where the guys from Duldur would know. What? Why are you doing this? It's an interesting choice of paths.

[Matt]

It is.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. And then we read that really intimidating phrase, terror went before them and lingered behind them. True. Unless you're one of the Elves, I would imagine, for whom terror is irrelevant.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah, you're probably. You're probably like. I mean, we've got Galadriel, so.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I don't need to worry.

[Matt]

Good shape?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, we're fine.

[Matt]

We're good here now still, we see that the Ringwraiths find no news. So at length they come back. Come back where? Well, it's the end of summer and they come back to the Wold of all places, why here again?

[Alan Sisto]

Why not the other side of the river? But okay, it's an agreed upon place not too far from Mordor in order to exchange intelligence, it would seem.

[Matt]

But that's a good point. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, I mean, you're not going to send agents from Mordor all the way up to. To Rivendell, you know, on the other side of the Misty Mountains and that far north. You're probably not going to send them all the way up to the Veils of Anduin, but you could send a messenger there. Wherever it was, was obviously prearranged because they come back there and so they meet up with messengers from Sauron and they're bringing messages and they're not like, good job, guys. Keep up the good work, man. I believe in you. This is threats. Threats from the boss that are so severe, the Witch King is said to be filled with dismay. The Witch King filled with dismay.

[Matt]

Yeah, that's. That's. That's intense. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

What could Sauron do to them beyond what he's already done? What. What could. What possible thing of the Witch King be afraid of? I mean, a body anymore?

[Matt]

There's. There's got to be something, I guess. I don't know. I don't know. Unless, I mean, gosh, like, would Destroying, you know, one of their rings. Destroy them? You know, like, that's a good question. Could it, could it be something where, like, even though their existence is awful, that they're still afraid of death? And maybe that's something that.

[Alan Sisto]

Maybe even more so now than ever. I mean, the fact that it's been unnaturally withheld from them for thousands of years, one would think, you know, it's even more scary. Interesting stuff.

[Matt]

But we see here Sauron's threats are because he's gained some new info. Specifically the prophecy about Isildur's Bane. And while Boromir didn't know what that meant, you can bet Sauron did. He also had known of Saruman's betrayal and Gandalf's capture, which had happened on July 10, per the tale of Years.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Now, in the part that we skipped reading, Sauron puts all of that together and he figures, you know what? Nobody else has the Ring yet. But let's ask ourselves, what if Saruman had it at this point? What if, what if Gandalf had it? What do you think?

[Matt]

Like, what. What would Sauron have done differently?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah. What would Sauron have done differently here if, you know, it turns out somebody did have the Ring? I mean, we know that he's trying to get information about the Ring. He realizes nobody has it because if somebody did, then something else would have happened. But what if, what if one of those guys had had it? What if Saruman or Gandalf had it? Or even Gadriel? What does Sauron do differently in trying to maybe find out which one of them has it, find out how they could retrieve it? Because he's not going to be able to just waltz in to Isengard, let's say, and say, hey, Saruman, I hear you have the ring. Would you mind handing it over, please? Yeah, he's not going to take him to court and sue for possession.

[Matt]

Right. And I think Tolkien even says this somewhere that his kind of best bet then would be betrayal among the free peoples and among the wise. Like they, you know, his, his best bet would be if they fought over it.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Oh, absolutely.

[Matt]

But, yeah, I think, you know, he knows that someone powerful like Gandalf is the one that we're told outright, you know, if, if Gandalf successfully gets the ring, then that could be the same for Sauron as if the ring was destroyed. So I, I think he's, he would have to put his, his efforts into building the biggest army as possible into overdrive at that point.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. So at this point, he's not trying to seek intel. He's looking to build up a military force and just take it.

[Matt]

I guess so, yeah. I don't know what you think.

[Alan Sisto]

That sounds about right. I mean, he'd have to go after it. Because if Gandalf gets a hold of it or even. I mean, I think Galadriel would put up a heck of a fight, but. I mean, Gandalf's the only one who might actually have the power to overthrow him.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

If he had possession of the Ring. Yeah.

[Matt]

Yeah. Now, while Saruman clearly doesn't have the Ring, he's probably got the best intel as to where it might be located.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Speed is of the essence now. So Sauron forgets all about self. It is time to go straight to Isengard and being obedient lackeys. You know all about being an obedient lackey, right, Matt?

[Matt]

Of course. I'm here, aren't I?

[Alan Sisto]

That is precisely what they do. They ride through Rohan with stealth at zero and terror at 11.

[Matt]

And it's so bad, people aren't just running from the Nazgul, they're fleeing the entire country thinking that war is on

[Alan Sisto]

the way, you know? They're not wrong, are they? I mean, no, it's just nine Nazgul, but these are like the Horsemen of the Apocalypse, you know?

[Matt]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes. This is not like, oh, this is bad, but we'll be okay. This is. This is the beginning of war. Yeah.

[Matt]

Yeah. We're out of here.

[Alan Sisto]

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[Matt]

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[Alan Sisto]

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[Matt]

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[Alan Sisto]

Oh my goodness, it is crazy right now our chat is blowing up. Got like, I don't know, 80 to 100 folks in there just enjoying the heck out of it and every so often going, oh, are Matt and Alan talking? That's great. I love it. Your support there, by the way, on Patreon is what enables me to work full time doing all of the shows. The PPP Today's Tolkien Times, Rings of Power wrap up my streaming show. PPP plays all of it. It even enables me to buy Matt a cup of coffee for showing up on the show. When you join, you also can get episode postscripts, ad free episodes, free merch and more.

[Matt]

And you can join our questions after Nightfall episodes or even appear as a guest in the north wing. Go to patreon.com prancingponypod to show your support and join the Fellowship of the Podcast.

[Alan Sisto]

And don't forget to rate and review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And please recommend us to your friends. You can do that directly on Spotify. Now you can just share the show with your friends on the platform. Matt, it's time for you to carry on the readings in this first part of the Hunt for the Ring.

[Matt]

All right. Two days after Gandalf had departed from Orthanc, the Lord of Morgul halted before the gate of Isengard. Then Saruman, already filled with wrath and fear by the escape of Gandalf, perceived the peril of standing between enemies. A known traitor to both his dread was great for his hope of deceiving Sauron, or at least of receiving his favor in victory, or was utterly lost. Now either he himself must gain the ring, or come to ruin and torment. But he was wary and cunning still, and he had ordered Isengard against just such an evil chance. The circle of Isengard was too Strong for even the Lord of Morgul and his company to assail without great force of war Therefore to his challenge and demands the he received only the answer of the voice of Saruman that spoke by some art as though it came from the gate itself. It is not a land that you look for, he said. I know what you seek. Though you do not name it, I have it not, as surely its servants perceive, without telling for if I had it, then you would bow before me and call me lord and if I knew where this thing was hid, I should not be here, but long gone before you to take it. There is one only whom I guess to have this knowledge. Mithrandir, enemy of Sauron and since it is but two days since he departed from Isengard, seek him nearby. Such was still the power of the voice of Saruman that even, even the lord of the Nazgul did not question what was said whether it was false or short of the full truth. But straightway he rode from the gate and began to hunt for Gandalf in Rohan. Thus it was, that on the evening of the next day the Black Riders came upon Grima Wormtongue as he hastened to bring word to Saruman that Gandalf was come to Edoras and and had warned King Theoden of the treacherous designs of Isengard. In that hour the Wormtongue came near to death by terror but being inured to treachery, he would have told all that he knew under less threat. Yea, yea, verily I can tell you, Lord, he said I have overheard their speech together in Isengard, the land of the Halflings. It was thence that Gandalf came and desires to return. He seeks now only a horse. Spare me. I speak as swiftly as I may. West through the gap of Rohan yonder, and then north, and a little west until the next great river bars the way. The Grey Flood, it is called. Thence, from the crossing at Tharbad, the old road will lead you to the borders the the Shire, they call it. Yea, Veridi. Saruman knows of it. Goods come to him from that land down the road. Spare me, Lord. Indeed I will say not of our meeting to any that live.

[Alan Sisto]

All right, then, so we start with the date that we can clearly identify in this case, it's two days after Gandalf left or thank the tale of years telling us that this happened in the early hours of September 18th. Interestingly, on that same day, but not mentioned in this narrative, we read that the Black Riders crossed the fords of

[Matt]

Isen it's 40 miles from the fords to Isengard, so this fits. Although I imagine the riders crossed the fords late on the 18th or they'd have likely arrived at Isengard on the 19th. So two days after Gandalf escaped Orthanc would be September 20th. Which is also the same day Gandalf gained entrance to Etterus which where Theoden told him take any horse and be gone ere tomorrow is old.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, if you're wondering how Gandalf and the riders missed each other on the 19th remember that Gandalf escaped Orthanc by Great Eagle and didn't have to take the road. That's a good thing. Clearly I'm imagining them. Oh. Funny meeting you here. Are you coming to visit my friend Solomon? So here we are on September 20th. And while Gandalf is choosing Shadowfax and Rohan. Eenie meeny, miny, moe. You know, I'll take that one. The Lord of Morgul is ringing Saruman's doorbell not at the Tower of Orthanc, but at the Gate of Isengard.

[Matt]

Yeah, and Saruman is already afraid and angry.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

It's been two days since Gandalf escapes. So now the good guys will know he's a traitor.

[Alan Sisto]

Yep.

[Matt]

And the mere presence of the Witch King here tells him that Sauron now knows he's a traitor as well. So this cannot end well for the wizard.

[Alan Sisto]

No, no it cannot. He now realizes he is stuck. He can no longer hope to trick Sauron. Which also means he can't even be like Sauron's lackey. Like I'm not even going to be on his good side in case he wins. This has put him in an absolutely untenable position. He now 100% needs the ring in order to survive. 5. The good guys aren't going to trust him anymore. And now the bad guy doesn't trust him. He is all on his own. And if he wants to avoid torture and death he's going to have to get the Ring.

[Matt]

But as stupid as Saruman often is, he seems to have planned for this possibility.

[Alan Sisto]

All I'm thinking of is Brett Devereaux. Saruman is a dummy mummy, and he is, but yeah, yeah.

[Matt]

So he's ordered Isengard against this scenario.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

After all, the gate is far too strong for even the Nazgul to attack. They need siege engines and probably Grond.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. I mean, when you realize, you know, Orthanc was built very much like Minas Tirith itself. In fact, the Tower of Isengard is said to be made out of that same material that the outer wall of Minas Tirith is made from, that black, shiny rock. I mean, I keep wanting to say like obsidian, but obsidian is too fragile, you know, I mean, that would easily be destroyed. So it must be something else, something that we don't, you know, have anymore, but. So Solomon speaks through his ring doorbell camera to the Witch King. Hello? Hello? Now, Solomon's not here. Can I. Can I take a message? Do you have a package? Just deliver it right there. Right there.

[Matt]

Just drop it at the doorstep.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. No. He tells the Lord of Morgan, look, I know precisely what you're looking for. You may say you're looking for the Shire, but you're not looking for a place to go on vacation. You're looking for the Ring, and I know it.

[Matt]

Yeah. Now, what do you make of this claim that they would bow before him and call him Lord if he had the Ring at this point, would they? Or would they pretend to, in order to get the Ring for Sauron later? Because that's. That's what Tolkien tells us they would have done to Frodo.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes. Okay, so in letter 246, which Tolkien wrote in September 1963, it's actually a series of drafts from a letter to Ms. Eileen Elgar. She must have asked a question similar to that. And the idea is, you know, what would have happened had Frodo actually claimed. Well, he did claim the Ring. What if that would have happened and then Asga would have been there? Frodo, of course, in the tale actually takes the Ring and claims that Tolkien writes, and he was then attacked by Gollum. When Sauron was aware of the seizure of the Ring, his one hope was in its power that the claimant would be unable to relinquish it until Sauron had time to deal with him. Frodo, too, would then probably, if not attacked, have had to take the same way, cast himself with the Ring into the abyss. So then, what about the Ringwraiths? They were naturally fully instructed and in no way deceived as to the real lordship of the Ring. There's the line right there. They were naturally fully instructed and in no way deceived as the real lordship of the Ring. The wearer would not be invisible to them, but the reverse and the more vulnerable to their weapons, as we saw on Weathertop. But of course, talking about Frodo, he had grown since then. So maybe not as strong as Saruman, but stronger than Frodo. Would they have been immune from its power if he claimed it as an instrument of command and domination. And Tolkien answers that not wholly. I do not think they could have attacked him with violence nor laid hold upon him or taken him captive. They would have obeyed or feigned to obey any minor commands of his that did not interfere with their errand laid upon them by Sauron, who still, through their nine rings which he held. I love it that it answers that question too. Had primary control of their wills. So I think that's the thing. They would have called him Lord, but they wouldn't have meant it. And that's important. Saruman is just tricking himself if he thinks that this. That they're going to somehow, you know. No, no, that's never going to happen. They know whose ring it is.

[Matt]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Alan Sisto]

So Saruman, of course, claims to not know where the ring is. If I did know, I'd be on the road to go get it. Like so many good liars, there's a bit of truth at the bottom all this. Instead, he tries to shift the Nazca's attention to Gandalf. Of course he would know. And of course he's an enemy of Sauron. And since he just left, he's probably close by. This was actually, if you ask me, pretty well played by Saruman. I mean, given his. Yeah, his position, he can't really do a whole lot else. He not only gets them going after Gandalf instead of him, he gets him to physically leave in doing this.

[David Smith]

Right?

[Matt]

Yeah. And the crazy part here is that, like, this is because of the power of his voice. It says so like, yeah, this is not only a good plan, but it's a good plan because of Saruman's ability to use his voice.

[Alan Sisto]

His persuasive skill through his voice even has power over the Witch King is pretty incredible.

[Matt]

Yeah. So this crazy plan works. Even the Witch King is convinced and he heads off to look for Gandalf and Rohan. And that leads to confrontation with a man far less prepared than Saruman was. Grima Wormtongue.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right, Wormtongue. He's heading north from Rohan with news from Saruman. Not only about Gandalf appearing there. I mean, hey, I thought you had this guy on the rooftop. Why. Why am I seeing him in Rohan? But Gandalf blowing their cover because Rohan now knows that Saruman is not a friend.

[Matt]

Yeah, we're told he was nearly frightened to death. But since he was so accustomed to treachery, not just his own, but Saruman's, he'd have told the Nazgul everything. If they just asked nicely.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right, we'd like some news. Okay, I'm happy to give it to you.

[Matt]

Yeah. Yep, I'll give it all. So what does he tell him? Well, everything. Yeah, Gandalf came from the Shire, the land of the Halflings, and is looking for a horse. So he can go back there.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. He even gives friendly directions. Go west through the gap, then north till you reach the second street. Turn left, then right at the Red, where the gas station is. No, just go to. Go up there till he reached the Gray Flood. And then take the Old North Road to the Shire. And he even sells out Saruman, right? He's like, oh, yeah, my boss. Yeah, he knows all about that.

[Matt]

He knows all about it.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. He gets barrels of tobacco from him all the way. But don't. Don't worry. I won't even tell him we spoke. Love it. Absolutely love it. He's such a. Such. He's so used to being a traitor that it's easy for him.

[Matt]

Yeah, he'll just trade. Yeah, he'll betray everybody. So in the part that we skipped the Witch King lets him live because he saw that he was evil. Evil and likely to bring harm to Saruman, which, of course, he does both, dear reader.

[Alan Sisto]

He did exactly that.

[Matt]

He did exactly that, both with the palantir and at the end in the Scouring of the Shire.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, well, quite literally killing him. Yeah, there is that. Yes.

[Matt]

That constitutes doing harm.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, that does that does. Yes.

[Matt]

Now, he could have gone back to Isengard to confront Saruman, but. But we end with the disturbing and true statement that Sauron's vengeance could wait.

[Alan Sisto]

Ooh, that was a. That's a cold thing. Sauron's vengeance could wait. Terrifying.

[Matt]

All right, with that, Alan, let's head into our last reading of the week.

[Alan Sisto]

All right. Now, he divided his company into four pairs and they rode separately. But he himself went ahead with the swiftest pair. Thus they passed west out of Rohan and explored the desolation of Enedwaith and came at last to Tharbad. Thence they rode through Menhiriath and even though they were not yet assembled a rumor of dread spread about them and the creatures of the wild hid themselves and lonely men fled away. But some fugitives on the road they captured and to the delight of the captain, two proved to be spies and servants of Sodom. And one of them had been used much in the traffic between Isengard and the Shire. And though he had not himself been beyond the South Farthing. He had charts prepared by Saruman which clearly depicted and described the Shire. These the Nazgul took and then sent him on to Bree to continue spying but warned him that he was now in the service of Mordor and that if ever he tried to return to Isengard they would slay him with torture. Night was Waning on the 22nd day of September when, drawing together again, they came to Saarn Ford and the southernmost borders of the Shire. They found them guarded, for the Rangers barred their way. But this was a task beyond the power of the Dunedain and maybe it would still have proved so even if their captain Aragorn, had been with them. But he was away to the north, upon the east road near Bree. And the hearts even of the Dunedain misgave them. Some fled northward, hoping to bear news to Aragorn. But they were pursued and slain, or driven away into the wild. Some still dared to bar the ford and held it while day lasted. But at night, the Lord of Morgul swept them away and the Black Riders passed into the Shire. And ere the cocks crowed in the small hours of the 23rd day of September some were riding north through the land even as Gandalf upon Shadowfax was riding over Rohan far behind.

[Matt]

So now we move into the section of the story that highlights the Witch King's tactical acumen. He breaks the Nazgul up into four groups of two and accompanies the fastest pair himself. We know that pair does not include Kamuul, given what we know about him from before.

[Alan Sisto]

Right, but we don't know anything else about any of the Nazgul so we don't really know anything. We do want to ask this, though. Why did he break them into four groups this far out? It makes sense to break them into groups when they get to the Shire. But here, they're still in Rohan. I mean, they likely encountered Wormtongue on the road to the Fords of Isen. So what do you think? Why break them up this far apart is just because you don't want to have to go at the pace of the slowest rider.

[Matt]

Yeah, I mean, I guess there's that. But then also not being 100% sure. You know what I mean? I guess Gandalf is likely to take the road, but in case maybe he's. He's onto them or, you know, has suspicions of being followed, he might divert from that path. Perhaps. And so they're going to search across the countryside for him as well.

[Alan Sisto]

That could make sense. Well, Whatever the reason, they follow his directions that is Warm Tongue's directions heading through the Gap of Rohan then turning north and reaching the Gray Flood at Tharbat. And I gotta tell you, they're moving really kind of unbelievably fast, aren't they, Matt?

[Matt]

Yeah. The Tale of Years gives us this timeline. September 18, they cross the Fords of Eisen. September 20, they confront Saruman at the Gate of Isengard. September 21, they encounter Grima Wormtongue. And September 22, they reach Saarn Ford at evening.

[Alan Sisto]

That part is crazy. September 21, they encounter Grima Werntongue. And September 22, they reach Saarn Ford. Yeah, Tharbad is roughly halfway. It's about 250 miles from Isengard to Tharbad and then another 250 miles from there to Saarn Ford at the southern border of the Shire. Even assuming that they encountered Wormtongue early in the morning like pre dawn on the 21st, maybe 4am let's say. And then assuming that the evening arrival at Saarn fort on the 22nd is like 11 at night or 11:59, we're still talking about covering 500 miles in 40 hours.

[Matt]

Which, what did we say earlier? That was 40 days for Gandalf.

[Alan Sisto]

For Gandalf to go 700 miles. This doesn't. I mean, if I can get Brett Devereaux on, we'll talk about this. Because their horses are normal steeds, as Gandalf has said.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And they don't have spares. They're killing their horses, which is fine. They don't care about their horses. I'm not saying it's fine. I like horses. I'm saying from their perspective, it doesn't matter to them. They're killing their horses. But if they don't have spares, how do they. Because they're going to be killing them every 50 miles at this pace.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

This is an insane pace to go for a day and a half to cover 500 miles. I just don't know.

[Matt]

That's wild.

[Alan Sisto]

It feels like this is one where we're talking because you know, he's super careful about the distances covered. I mean, even in like. I'm thinking about Barondier's ride which is a heroic ride that takes him all the way up to the north of the Vales of Anduin to get the Eotheod to come down.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm thinking of Gandalf's ride with Pippin from the hill of Dol Baran to Minas Tirith on Shadowfax, which is something like 300 miles and it still takes them more time than this. So I don't know. This is one where I feel like Tolkien would have fixed this if he did end up publishing it because it just doesn't feel possible.

[Matt]

That's, that's true. Yeah, I think. And that's where the rubber meets the road is Tolkien didn't publish this himself

[Alan Sisto]

or else he would, he would have fixed this. It would have been like, yeah, they're normal horses, they're not Miras. And even if they were, that's still too fast.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah, but we're getting ahead of ourselves a bit here. Let's talk about that journey north. Obviously fear and terror come along with them everywhere they go. And surprise, yeah, sorry, most people run away, but they captured a couple of them who happen to be Saruman servants, which is convenient.

[Alan Sisto]

It sure is. That's a nice little plot point. We will learn more about the identity of one of these in a couple of weeks. I'll spoil it for you now. He was the squint eyed southerner at the inn. But what happens at this point once they've captured the Nazgul, turn these guys, I was going to say into double agents. But they're not even going to pretend to be spying for Saruman anymore. You are now working for us. You are now employed by the Nazgul llc. You are no longer working for Saruman. And we have a very strict non compete clause.

[Matt]

That's right, yes.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean you would not believe how strict the non compete clause is.

[Matt]

And that's when we get the arrival of these incredible writers on the night of the 22nd. Yeah, and the brave Dunedain doing their very best to stand up against the, the Nine guarding the Shire, as we know they've done.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. I mean that's what they've been doing all this time, is protecting the Shire and protecting the Ring. Not just guarding it, but here, laying down their lives for it. Right. I mean the text tells us this might have been too much for them even if Aragorn had been there. I'm of course thinking of the incredible instance in Lord of the Rings online. You actually get to play this moment in one of the intros. If you do the the beyond the Shadow or before the Shadow intro, you get to play this and it's pretty intense and you realize, here we go, we're, we're going to be facing off against the Nazgul. We're just ordinary mortal men. This is definitely Too much, though. What if Aragorn had been there, do you think it would have made much of a difference?

[Matt]

I mean, I think it would have made some difference, but, you know, I. Who am I to argue with Tolkien?

[Alan Sisto]

I was going to say, I kind of think that. I kind of think it wouldn't have made a difference. I mean. Yeah, it would have made a difference. Maybe the number of dead rather than the number of runaway.

[Matt]

Yes, yes.

[Alan Sisto]

That's really all.

[Matt]

That's what I'm getting at. Like, if. If you get into, you know, thinking in sports terms, like going into the numbers and the analytics, it would have made a difference statistically. But.

[Alan Sisto]

But they still would have lost.

[Matt]

Yeah. The result would have been the same. Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

The result would have still been. The mercy rule applies.

[Matt]

That's right.

[Alan Sisto]

And. And then is not honored. Yeah.

[David Smith]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

But where is Aragorn? Why isn't he there? Well, on the East Road near Bree. A week from now, he'll be sitting in the Prancing Pony as Frodo arrives. But that's a week from now. As for Frodo, recall that it is September 22nd today, the day that they're arriving, that the Dunedain are standing up against the Nazgul. That very moment, Frodo is celebrating his and Bilbo's birthday with friends. That's such a shyer moment now that you think about it, you know.

[Matt]

Yeah. Unaware of what's going on around them

[Alan Sisto]

that the Dunedin are laying their lives down to protect them.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

And these Rangers simply can't stand up to the Nazgul, you know, gathered together under their terrible lord. Just as Sauron believed they, they. Nobody can stand against them. Some run north to get word to Aragorn, the Rangers, that is. But they get chased down and killed or driven off. So Aragorn doesn't get word about this right away.

[Alan Sisto]

I kind of wonder if he had, what would he have done? Would he have been able to. To abandon the East Road? He had to be on the East Road because he was waiting for Froto. Like, he knew that Froto was going to be coming. Remember, he follows him in debris when he sees them come by and he's there at. Basically at Gandalf's request. So I don't think he leaves. I think he says, that's too bad. Run away. Yeah. Like we can't do anything.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

So others try to hold the Ford. But now we get another bit of confusing text. What does this mean about holding it while day lasted? We just read earlier that night was waning. Meaning night was going away, Night was fading. So does he mean that it was early in the morning on the 22nd, like just before dawn, 4 o' clock in the morning, Night was waning. And then they hold it while the day lasted. That would certainly explain the Rangers holding the Ford while the day lasted and losing out at night. But it would drastically shorten the available time for the Nazgul to make that journey. It would become less than 24 hours to go 500 miles.

[Matt]

Again, it's even more absurd.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Fix it in post. This is like changing the dates. Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. I think it's a fix it in post moment for sure. Yeah.

[Matt]

Well, whatever the timeline is, by the very early hours of September 23, before the rooster's crow, some were heading north. The Tale of years. Giving us more specific info. Four riders enter the Shire before dawn. The others pursue the Rangers eastward and then return to watch the Greenway.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay, so four go in. The others would be five. So they go eastward and then come back to watch over the Greenway, which we'll find out later is where the Witch King kind of sets up camp.

[Matt]

So, yeah, I was just gonna say. So we know the Witch King because of the odd number and that the Witch King was paired with two others. Yeah, that he went to watch the Greenway after pursuing Rangers eastward.

[David Smith]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And of course, it wasn't like, oh, we want to kill them all. It was, we didn't want news to get out. This was, we don't want Aragorn to learn about this. We don't want Gandalf to learn about this. We want to wipe you all out because we want to sneak in here. So, folks, just so you can keep up with what else is happening, this is also the same day that Gandalf has tamed Shadowfax and leaves Rohan. He will not arrive at Sarn Ford for another five days riding shadow. Facts. So, once again, I'm left trying to figure out the Nazgul's horses and I'm totally stumped.

[Matt]

I don't know. I. We need to get an equestrian on here. I think we really do.

[Alan Sisto]

Because if Gandalf takes a day to get to the fords of ice and from Rohan, which is about right. Yeah, that still means he takes four more days to get to Sarn Ford. You're telling me that the Nazgul were able to ride their ordinary horses there in less than half that time? Maybe a third of that time. I struggle with that. So, like, I think this really is a fix it in post moment. So some of the Rangers still dared to bar the Ford, but Barloman dared to ford the bar. Matt, what does Bartleman have in his bag for us today?

[Matt]

Barloman has some correspondence from Dottie. Dottie says, I keep seeing rumors about the Hunt for Gollum movie. I'm wondering what story should we expect here? Is there that much from the books to cover and what would you hope to see in the movie?

[Alan Sisto]

I definitely think there's enough to cover. I mean like you could, you could build a really cool two hour movie though it's a Jackson film, so maybe three hours. That might be a stretch. You could build a pretty solid film on this story of the Hunt for the Ring, especially with all the tangential material. Because you're talking about this being. I mean there's, you could do all sorts of flashbacks with Aragorn.

[Matt]

Yeah, that's the one I go to a lot is the, the flashbacks with Aragorn.

[Alan Sisto]

Of young Aragorn.

[Matt]

Yeah, I would love to see Aragorn like and, and as we're recording this, there's been rumors of like casting calls.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. Yeah.

[Matt]

You know, a woman in their 30s and a woman in their 50s. And the 50s one. I immediately thought of Gilrane.

[Alan Sisto]

That's exactly.

[Matt]

I would love to see Aragorn's mom because. And, and that stuff is in the tale of Aragorn and Arwen, which is part of the Lord of the Rings. So we know it's within the rights.

[Alan Sisto]

Correct. They could use it, they could use

[Matt]

that dialogue verbatim in, in the films.

[Alan Sisto]

Which would be, that would be glorious. Especially in Sindarin.

[Matt]

You know, I give hope to men. I keep none for myself.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. I mean, and in Sindarin that would be even more amazing. I just went ahead and pulled up appendix A15, but she answered only with this linod oneen I estelled and Aragorn went away heavy of heart. Gilrein died before the next spring. Yeah, I would, I would definitely pay to see that. Yeah, it'd be fantastic.

[Matt]

So I, I would love to see her, her story be told.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, it deserves to be told.

[Matt]

Like, I mean her husband dies and she takes her two year old son through the wilderness to Rivendell. And then, you know, to see him grow up and be set on this path. And you know, just her dying words there, like that whole conversation she has with Aragorn is so powerful.

[Alan Sisto]

It is really, really poignant. I think that's something I'd like to see. I'd like to see There's a lot I'd like to see. Can I tell you what I don't want to see?

[Matt]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

I really don't want to see actors from the first films de aged with AI.

[Matt]

It seems like you're not getting Vigo deaged.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. He said he's not.

[Matt]

They're casting a young Aragorn. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And I'm glad for that. And that gives me some hope because I think if they're going to recast Aragorn, they realistically have to recast all the other characters.

[Matt]

Yeah. I don't think you need to recast Gandalf. Gandalf's always an old guy and he's always old.

[Alan Sisto]

And you don't have to de age him.

[Matt]

Yeah. As long as. As long as Ian McKellen is down for being Gandalf. Like, bring. Bring it on, bring it on.

[Alan Sisto]

Just try. Please don't try to de age him. Just let him be his old guy.

[Matt]

So, yeah, that's the thing to me is, like, if you can do stuff with makeup and, like, light de aging that way, which is possible, like, you can take off a few years with makeup and stuff, you know?

[Alan Sisto]

And like, people that listen to the show know that I'm not a very big fan of AI and especially when it comes to creative things.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

So I really don't want to see AI playing a major role in this. This. I would love to see a lot of new casting opportunities. I suppose there's one other character that they could cast the same, and that is if they do make it to the north of Mirkwood and we see the transition to Thranduil's Halls, they could recast Lee Pace as Thrand because he's an elf.

[Matt]

Right. And he. He looks the same, too. And his.

[Alan Sisto]

He does look the same. I watch him in Foundation. He looks exactly the same.

[Matt]

His movies were only 10 years ago, which helps, you know, not 25 years ago.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. So I think you could recast him. But, you know, let's. Please. Love of all that is holy. Can we leave Tariel aside and not have a younger Tariel? Can we?

[Matt]

As long as she doesn't have a love triangle. I think she's. She's a good character.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that's true. I didn't have a problem with the character Tariel. I. No, don't get me wrong at all. I loved Evangeline Lilly's portrayal of her.

[Matt]

Presumably she wouldn't have a love triangle if she pops up. Up here. So, like, just let her show up and shoot some orcs and be the

[Alan Sisto]

Captain of the Guard. Yeah, I suppose. I don't know. Yeah.

[Matt]

I. I just. But I'm. I'm 100% on board with, like, the. The CG aging and the AI and stuff. Like, I look back at, you know, thinking in the Star wars world, which. I know you're also a fan of Star wars, like the D.H. luke Skywalker stuff.

[Alan Sisto]

That moment still took me by surprise. You're talking about, like, the Mandalorian.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

You know.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And I was like, no way. But then you're like, oh, uncanny valley.

[Matt]

But then when he talks. Yeah. As soon as they open their mouths or, like, move or do anything that resembles human emotion or. Yeah. Anything that resembles humanity, it's just like, oh. Oh, what. What is that? And. And it ages so poorly. It's so poorly. It's all. It's only been a few years. And, like. Yeah. And like, Grand Moff Tarkin, I would argue, is done better than. Than Luke Skywalker stuff.

[Alan Sisto]

I would think so.

[Matt]

But it's still.

[Alan Sisto]

It's still very obvious, and it takes you right out.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And. And that's the thing. I mean, so anyway, I don't want to. I don't want to beat that horse too long, but what. What else would I like to see?

[Matt]

What about the. The stuff about, like, the. The rumors about seeing Gollum when he was younger as a. As a Hobbit.

[Alan Sisto]

As the early Hobbit.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

As Deagle.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Or a Smeagol before he kills Deagle.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah. Like, I mean, some of the rumors have been like, we're talking young child, like, preteen child kind of thing.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that would be interesting. I mean, I think. I think that could work.

[Matt]

He teaches his grandmother to suck eggs.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Or no, I thought it was the other way around. She taught him, Right.

[Matt]

I thought he taught her.

[Alan Sisto]

I don't remember. There's just some egg sucking going on. And I was like, can I read past this really quickly? Because I don't want anything to do with that. There's so much good in this story. I do want to see Gandalf's interrogation of Gollum because that.

[Matt]

That's two characters we never see interact otherwise.

[Alan Sisto]

I know.

[Matt]

You know, they never interact in Lord of the Rings. Like, it. It'd be kind of cool to see Andy Serkis and Ian McKellen acting as their two iconic characters in the same scene.

[Alan Sisto]

In the same scene, which has not been done. I agree. So, I mean, I just hope they don't. I don't. I don't want to see them shoehorn other characters in, like, ooh, Galadriel has to make an appearance, so we need to get Cate Blanchette. Ooh, Elrond needs to make an appearance. So let's go get Hugo Weaving. No, they don't need to show up in this story.

[Matt]

Right. The thing that a lot of movies, you know, and I'm not saying, like, the Hobbit did this or anything, or wore the. Oh. Humor or anything, but like a thing that I think, like, superhero movies tend to do this where it's like, you can tell in the edit that they are pausing for applause when a character shows up. And it's like, if you're just watching on your couch, you're not applauding. Like, there's a pause for no reason.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, you mentioned that, and I was afraid you're going to go someplace else because I was thinking, no, the Hobbit movies did do this fall into the prequel trap. Don't play to those later moments. An example in the Hobbit was when Legolas looks at Gloin's, you know, little photo.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Ew. What is this ugly thing? Oh, it's my we lad Gimley. That was. That was just the most obvious prequel trap, you know.

[Matt]

Yeah. Or like. Or Thranduil. Or Thranduil. Not saying. Saying Aragorn's name. It's like you have to discover it for yourself.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, my gosh.

[Matt]

Like, come on. Like. Yeah, it's just like, it's this tendency and. And so many times it's like in movies, if they would just stop the dialogue two sentences earlier.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes.

[Matt]

But they just. They just drag it out for too long. It's like you want to allude, like, hey, go find this Ranger in the North. I think he might grow to be a great.

[Alan Sisto]

That's all you need.

[Matt]

And then that's it. That's it. Just leave it there. You play the little motif of the Fellowship.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. It's like, okay, yeah, even that's too much in my book. But, like, let this movie stand on its own.

[Matt]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Don't make it reference. Don't make it reference Fellowship. And. And even the Hobbit films don't make it reference those things much. I mean, I guess for the Hobbit it would be a sequel, so you could reference some of that, but don't. For the love of all that is cinema, please don't fall into the prequel trap.

[Matt]

Yeah. I mean, even Rings of Power is

[Alan Sisto]

very, very much so. Yeah.

[Matt]

Very guilty.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, it is. And. And I Feel bad because the answer is, what do I want to see? It's mostly been what I don't want to see. And I apologize for that. I really do. There are a lot of things I do want to see, but unfortunately those are the things that come out at me first, like cringy moments.

[Matt]

So what about Gollum traipsing over to Dale in Lake Town?

[Alan Sisto]

I think that would be interesting. I would like to see maybe start with Gollum traipsing over to Dale and then we cut to Aragorn and then we cut to Gollum the know on the verges of Mordor and getting into Mordor and still looking for the Ring. And we, we get to see him captured and tormented and we get to see his release and then Aragorn finding him in the dead marshes and the biting and the, you know. Great.

[Matt]

I like when he ties him to a log. That's my favorite thing is Aragorn tying Gollum to a log to get across the river.

[Alan Sisto]

I love that. That's brilliant. And then I think that's good stuff.

[Matt]

It kind of like it. It adds a. A humorous note when you see in Fellowship of the Ring in the extended edition when go hiding behind a line on the river and it's kind of like, oh, did he get that idea from Aragorn tying him to a lock?

[Alan Sisto]

He might have, but I think the text of Fellowship actually has that as well.

[Matt]

Well, yeah, no, I'm saying, but even within the text, like, oh, yes, the idea because he was tied to a

[Alan Sisto]

log, like, that makes sense.

[Matt]

A year ago, you know.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah, that totally makes sense. I love that. Yeah, there's a lot of things that we can see enough to fill the story.

[Matt]

That's the thing that I would encourage people is that like, you know, people will point to stuff and say like, oh, this is only a couple paragraphs. It was the same thing with War of the Rohirrim, which I thought was a pretty solid movie. Like, there's a few things that I would have done to like trim it down. I think it, you know, it didn't need the mumic and the, it didn't

[Alan Sisto]

need the watcher in the water.

[Matt]

In the moomic Watcher in the water thing.

[Alan Sisto]

Like that was prequel trap right there.

[Matt]

Yeah. I think it could have been like a really nice, tight hour 45 or something.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes. Everything else was fine. Really.

[Matt]

I think it was a really good, solid movie with some great like, lore beats and people were cynical about that because it's like, oh, it's just this Couple pages in the appendices. And I would caution against that because, like, Tolkien. Tolkien's appendices are a treasure trove.

[Alan Sisto]

They're dense, too. They're dense. Like the things that happen.

[Matt]

Yeah. We're not. We're not taking two pages of. Of, you know, what a novel would be, where it's. Where it's like, you know, two pages or six pages, whatever it is, where that's like a fraction of a chapter of events. Like.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

This is footnotes of a history that can be expanded upon and, like, fleshed out as long as they're staying true to. To the bones of that story and, like, the. The themes of. Of the world. Like, I. I would just caution against becoming too cynical about, like.

[Alan Sisto]

I agree.

[Matt]

Oh, they're. They're padding this out or whatever. Like, there's some great stories that I really hope get told out of the appendices.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, I wholeheartedly agree. I still want to see a whole series of films about the Kingdom of Arnor and the. Splitting it up into the one I

[Matt]

go to all the time.

[Alan Sisto]

All the time. Such a great, great story.

[Matt]

You got the Witch King as the bad guy.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, my gosh. How cool is that? But I also think the civil war in Gondor would be fantastic. Can you imagine laying the foundations for that and seeing this relationship with the Northman? But you also sort of had this underlying racism and. And this, like, oh, we're superior because you're not, you know, Numenorean descent. And. And then all of a sudden, the king's son marries a new. Marries a Northman woman and.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Wow, what a great story that could be told. So that's the thing. The stories in the appendices are, like you said, you know, short and intense and. And I think I use the word condensed and you just add water and they expand. Yeah, they're like those little dinosaur sponges.

[Matt]

Yeah. And like. And, like, you touched on, you know, the kin strife. Like, there's all these juicy moments in that, you know, dynamics that are in that story.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

That. That could more than do an entire film's worth of drama.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yeah, Yeah.

[Matt]

I just think. And let's be honest, like, the casting of Queen Beruthiel would be just, like. Would just be one of the most epic, like, casting decisions of all time. Like, people would. It would light the Internet on fire of who is going to play Queen Berutheo.

[Alan Sisto]

I love that. You can CG the cats. Fine. CG the cats.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

All right. Yeah. All right. That was fun. Well, folks, thank you for joining us for another episode of the Prancing Pony Podcast. Please come back again next week when we start to look at other versions of the story, including the Nazgul surprising need for Hip Waders and water wings.

[Matt]

Cannot wait to get into that now, folks, Alan and I want to thank the members of Team PPP editor Jordan Rannels Barlamon, Becca Davis, Social media manager Casey Hilsey, Event and Patreon community coordinator Katie McKenna, graphic artist Megan Collins, video editor Yonatan Lacens and website guru Phil Dean.

[Alan Sisto]

And please take a minute to check out the prancingponypodcast.com that's where you'll find show notes, outtakes, Prancing Pony ponderings, as well as our fully revamped PPP merch store. That's where you can get all sorts of cool PPP merch featuring the incredible chapter art that Megan's been doing for us for more than three seasons.

[Matt]

We're all about the books here at the Prancing Pony Podcast, so be sure to also visit our library page. We try to make sure that any book we've mentioned on the show is linked there for you to purchase. We do get a small amount of compensation when you make your purchase, so thank you for that.

[Alan Sisto]

Indeed. Thank you. We also want to thank our patrons at the Kirdan's contribution tier. I'll start with Demay in Alaska, Chad in Texas, Lance in New Jersey, Joseph in Michigan, Kathy from North Carolina, Brian in the uk, Jerry from Washington, Irwin from the Netherlands, Ben in Minnesota, Anthony in Texas, Zaksu in Illinois, Joshua in Massachusetts, Lucy in Texas, Erica in Texas, James in Massachusetts and Ann in Kentucky.

[Matt]

There's also Sean in New Jersey, Mason in California, Maureen from Massachusetts, Olivia in London, Robert in Arizona, Nick in Wisconsin, Lewis in South Carolina, Thomas in Germany, Craig in California, Kevin in Massachusetts, Joe in Maryland, D, Scott in California, Jeffrey in Michigan, Paul in Colorado, David from Connecticut and Teresa from Texas. Thank you all so very much for your support indeed.

[Alan Sisto]

Thank you.

[Matt]

Make sure you don't miss any episodes of the Prancing Pony Podcast. Subscribe now through Spotify, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or your favorite podcast app.

[Alan Sisto]

One last thing. As always, don't forget to send your thoughts, comments and most of all, your NFL scouting reports on the nine Nazgul. I mean, the draft is later this week. We gotta know to barlow@the prancingponypodcast.com Barloman

[Matt]

does have a lot of mail to sort through though, so we'll try to get to you just as soon as we're able.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm still picturing well, Kamu ran a 4.33, but he's afraid of water, so if it's a rainy game, he's not going to be able to come out of the locker room. All right. As always, this has been far too short a time to spend among such excellent and admirable listeners.

[Matt]

But until next time, this is the end. We are going. We are leaving now. Goodbye,

[Alan Sisto]

Sam.