410 – You Got Lucky, Gollum

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Prancing Pony Podcast

Episode 410 – "You Got Lucky, Gollum"

April 26, 2026 – Host: Alan Sisto, Co-Host: Matt from Nerd of the Rings

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Episode Overview

This episode continues the Prancing Pony Podcast’s deep, yet lively, exploration of Tolkien’s legendarium. Alan Sisto and Matt (Nerd of the Rings) focus on the ongoing “Hunt for the Ring,” as found in Tolkien’s Unfinished Tales—specifically, the section detailing Aragorn’s capture of Gollum, Sauron’s mistakes and the Nazgûl’s subsequent mission. The hosts compare multiple manuscript versions, unpack editorial commentary by Christopher Tolkien, and gleefully wander through Tolkien lore with their trademark humor and camaraderie. This is the second in a four-part examination of the Hunt for the Ring, diving into the consequences of Gollum’s escape, Sauron’s decision-making, and the risks Tolkien took with his narrative.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Podcast’s Signature Banter and Lore-Rich Community

• Alan welcomes listeners, emphasizing the show’s balance of detailed Tolkien analysis and pub-worthy humor (03:05).
• Matt recounts favorite recent Nerd of the Rings moments: a second Alan Lee interview, visiting Ghost Galaxy HQ, and playing the “Ultimate Edition” of Lord of the Rings: The Confrontation (04:22).
• Both hosts nerd out over sports and Tolkien crossovers, sharing stories of Lord of the Rings music at sporting events and teasing an upcoming interview with Dodgers pitcher Brock Stewart, a huge Tolkien fan (08:16).

2. Anticipation and Concerns for Rings of Power Season 3

• Matt shares anticipation for an increased focus on Elendil and Gil-galad, citing Lloyd Owen’s dedication to the role and recent real-life recognition for show actors (13:14).
• Concerns: the potential overemphasis on Hobbits, whose Second Age inclusion is “purely a ‘lore-brain’ objection” and, for Matt, hasn't produced compelling TV (16:10).
• "If you cut out the Hobbit storyline, the show instantly gets stronger," Matt asserts (17:47).
• Alan and Matt praise the Dwarf storyline and discuss the emotional "heart" in characters like Durin IV.

3. Gaming as Tolkien Adaptation – From Magic: The Gathering to Board Games

• High excitement for the upcoming Magic: The Gathering – Hobbit crossover, speculating on card mechanics for Beorn and Smaug (19:04).
• They discuss cooperative Lord of the Rings trick-taking and strategy board games, including "Circle of Conflict" and how conventions like Gen Con are great for fans (21:42).
• Alan wishes for more local friends for board game nights; Matt suggests board game conventions for a truly immersive Tolkien experience (23:22).

4. Deep Textual Analysis: Unfinished Tales – The Hunt For the Ring

Editorial Framing & Manuscript Versions

• Christopher Tolkien’s editorial work is explained: multiple versions (A, B, C, D) exist of the Hunt for the Ring narrative, each with variations in detail or sequence (24:04).
  • "These manuscripts are confusing, and their relations obscure..." —Christopher Tolkien (26:46)
• Gollum's interrogation by Sauron: Sauron's info from Gollum was imprecise—he learned "Baggins" and "Shire," but not the word "Hobbit," due to its local nature (32:18).
• The lack of actionable detail crucially delays Sauron's search: "This was a very small and natural error, but possibly the most important mistake that Sauron made..." —J.R.R. Tolkien, cited by Alan (26:46).

What Did Gollum Actually Reveal?

• Discussion centers on what, exactly, Gollum may have told Sauron: the ring's location under the Misty Mountains, the name "Baggins," and that the Shire lay West, learned during Bilbo’s return (37:13).
• (Fun aside: The word "Shire" never appears in The Hobbit.) They're amused imagining Sauron trying to find "Baggins" with Google or by sending generic minions, not knowing what a hobbit is (30:57, 37:12).

Sauron's Mistakes

• Sauron's biggest errors are vividly catalogued and mocked:
  • Letting Gollum go from captivity.
  • Leaving Mount Doom unguarded.
  • Relying on Shelob and Minas Morgul for security.
  • Mistaking Pippin (seen in the Palantír) for the Ring-bearer (39:57).
• "If Sauron had not made this mistake...the Black Riders would have reached the Shire weeks sooner, and Frodo never would have escaped." —Alan (41:05)

Nazgûl Deployment: Reluctance and Weaknesses

• Sauron's reluctance to dispatch the Nazgûl:
  • They are powerful and completely enslaved by Sauron, but not stealthy, their presence causing terror even when invisible; secrecy is impossible (54:07).
  • "They are quite incapable of acting against his will..." —Tolkien (54:19).
  • Most fear crossing water, except by bridge, and tend to wander in daylight—except for the Witch-King (59:03).
  • Both hosts riff on the logistics: “They’re like dogs coming across squirrels… you gotta put them on a leash.” —Matt (58:32)
• Sauron feared alerting the Wise (i.e., Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond) too soon by moving so obviously.

Aragorn’s Epic Trek with Gollum

• Aragorn’s 900-mile journey, February–March, capturing Gollum, crossing rivers with “driftwood,” echoing moments from Fellowship and speculating Gollum later imitated this log tactic (71:12).
• "Aragorn accomplished with weariness in 50 days...18 miles per day...while carrying an unhelpful Gollum in a sack." —Alan (73:41)
• The logistics are real: Appalachian Trail reference used for context.

Sauron’s Intelligence Network

• Sauron’s spies receive the news of Gollum’s capture only after significant delays. Communication from Dol Guldur (likely via the Nazgûl) and the risks of sending incomplete updates to Sauron are discussed (68:12, 77:31).

Gollum’s Fate After Escape; Mirkwood Elves as Jailers

• After Gollum’s escape from Thranduil, pursued by elves and orcs, he possibly swims the Anduin and hides in Moria.
• Legolas’ embarrassment at the Council of Elrond for Gollum’s escape: “Not through lack of watchfulness…but perhaps through overkindliness…” —Legolas (89:21).
• Nazgûl attacks: Gondor’s Boromir and Faramir allowed to escape after the Witch-king’s intimidation succeeds, with Boromir’s own retelling shared (91:10).

The Unexplained Fear of Water

• Ringwraiths’ fear of water is never properly explained by Tolkien or Christopher. The hosts speculate wildly – from RPG disadvantages to “being like the Wicked Witch of the West,” to Nazgûl needing to be “told by the Witch-King” to cross rivers despite their fears (95:02).
• “Are they like the Wicked Witch of the West? Just become a pile of black robes?” —Alan (95:02)
• Incorporating humor, analogies, and speculation on plot necessity.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "When you release a new Alan Lee, you know...it’s like shooting nerds in a barrel." —Matt (04:09)
• "If you cut out the Hobbit storyline, the show instantly gets stronger." —Matt, on Rings of Power (17:47)
• "Sauron's mistakes: Ope." —Matt, summarizing Sauron's Midwest-level blundering (39:00)
• "What do you mean you don’t know who Gandalf is? He’s got like 20 million followers on Instagram." —Alan (63:56)
• “Swimming across the Anduin is a viable option, but not for an army. Right. It’s a viable option for one person and arguably one very much in shape person.” —Alan, on Aragorn’s journey (69:16)
• "The Nazgûl...they're terrifying, but they're also totally incompetent." —Alan (94:43)
• “You could have…just started using a mister, like when your cat gets in places you don't want...” —Alan, on dealing with Nazgûl’s hydrophobia (96:03)

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Important Segment Timestamps

• 00:00–01:44 – Opening (ad skipped)
• 03:24–05:51 – Guest catch-up: Matt’s Nerd of the Rings highlights
• 05:57–10:06 – Sports & Tolkien crossovers (music at ballparks, athlete fans)
• 11:25–19:40 – Rings of Power anticipations/concerns; Hobbit criticisms
• 19:40–23:45 – Gaming adaptations, Magic: The Gathering, and conventions
• 24:04–26:46 – Setting the stage: multiple Hunt for the Ring manuscripts
• 30:57–41:05 – Gollum’s info, Sauron’s mistakes, stakes of Sauron’s “small error”
• 54:07–61:52 – Nazgûl strengths, weaknesses, and Sauron’s deployment logic
• 65:33–76:02 – Aragorn’s trek with Gollum, timelines matched to textual references
• 88:26–90:30 – Mirkwood Elves’ “overkindliness”; Legolas at the Council of Elrond
• 91:10–92:08 – Boromir’s account of the Witch-king at Osgiliath bridge
• 93:39–95:28 – Editorial confusion: Nazgûl and fear of rivers
• 104:12–107:25 – Listener Q&A: Best way to introduce friends to Tolkien

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Closing Notes

The episode closes with warm listener Q&A ("How do I hook my friends on Tolkien?"), a shared appreciation of the books, films, games, and the many entry points to Middle-earth. The hosts advocate tailoring introductions to personal interests, with films, games, and read-alongs all valid paths. They also reiterate the value of genuine passion: “Continue to demonstrate your passion for the fandom. Your love for the material is contagious.” —Alan (111:00).

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Overall Tone & Style

The hosts blend scholarly textual analysis with approachable, pub-style banter, peppering their discussion with pop-culture asides, puns, and playful rivalry. Their humor keeps even the densest Tolkien lore discussion lively and accessible, while their mutual respect and deep expertise make the episode a both informative and entertaining listen for Tolkien fans new and old.

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For those who haven’t listened:
This episode unpacks a pivotal, behind-the-scenes moment of the Lord of the Rings saga: the nearly catastrophic consequences—averted only by Sauron’s "natural error"—of Gollum’s loose tongue, the Ringwraiths’ limitations, and Aragorn’s heroics. It’s a rewarding mix of in-depth lore, fan debate, and Tolkien-fandom camaraderie.

Transcript

[Alan Sisto]

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[Matt]

Mom, can you tell me a story? Sure. Once upon a time, a mom needed a new car.

[Alan Sisto]

Was she brave? She was tired mostly.

[Matt]

But she went to Carvana.com and found a great car at a great price. No secret treasure map required. Did you have to fight a dragon? Nope. She bought it 100% online from her bed, actually. Was it scary? Honey, it was as unscary as car buying could be. Did the car have a sunroof? It did, actually. Okay, good story. Car buying you'll want to tell stories about. Buy your car today on Carvana. Delivery fees may apply.

[Alan Sisto]

Good evening, little masters, and welcome to episode 410 of the Prancing Pony podcast, where, well, no doubt more could have been wrung from Matt by torture.

[Matt]

You're still not going to know what a Baggins is. I'll put it that way.

[Alan Sisto]

All right.

[Matt]

You're not going to know.

[Alan Sisto]

No.

[Matt]

Folks, pull up a bench in the common room and join us. I'm Matt, the nerd of the rings, and I'm here with the man of the west who made a very small and natural heir, Alan Sisto.

[Alan Sisto]

You mean inviting you back?

[Matt]

Probably, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Folks, join us as we get a closer look at Aragorn's unpleasant journey as we continue our four part look at the hunt for the Ring from Unfinished Tales.

[Matt]

Folks, no matter whether you came to Middle Earth through the books, the films, the TV show, or something else, each of you is welcome here in our common room. The Prancing Pony Podcast continues in our 10th season of Reading and talking our way through Middle Earth with conversations Digressions and even speculations.

[Alan Sisto]

Not to mention a few puns and bad jokes here and there. Especially bad now that Matt's on the run.

[Matt]

Oh, it's gonna get bad.

[Alan Sisto]

Our purpose, though, dive deep into the lore to discuss the story, our favorite characters and themes, Tolkien's inspirations, and a whole lot more.

[Matt]

And while we take our work seriously, the same can't be said about ourselves. We're just a couple friends chatting at the pub. And we're glad you've joined us, and

[Alan Sisto]

I'm sure you'll be glad you joined as well. But before we get to tonight's chapter discussion, it's actually time for us to catch up with my current co host and see what's been happening with Matt over at the Nerd of the Rings. I usually try to do this early in the run, but we're actually like three episodes in. We've little busy, haven't we?

[Matt]

We. We had important stuff to discuss and get to.

[Alan Sisto]

We did. We did. Well, you were last on the PPP in March of 2025, so more than a year has gone by for the Nerd of the Rings. What are one or two of your favorite Nerd of the Rings moments, episodes, interviews, whatever of the last year?

[Matt]

This is, this was a tough one to think about because there's so many, so many great interviews especially. Yeah, I bet I got to talk to Alan Lee again. So this is the second time I've talked to Alan Lee on my channel.

[Alan Sisto]

He's fantastic, isn't he?

[Matt]

Yeah. And we're talking about, you know, new editions of his books. And if anyone has seen your stuff on YouTube or, you know, visuals, they can see your impressive bookshelf in the background.

[Alan Sisto]

Lots of Alan Lee featured there.

[Matt]

Yeah, I'm preaching the choir when I say it's like, it's like shooting nerds in a barrel when you just. When you release a new Alan Lee, you know, edition of the book Shooting

[Alan Sisto]

Nerds in a Barrel. Man, I love it. I love it.

[Matt]

That's what it is. One of the other memorable ones was I got to go up to Ghost Galaxy hq, which is a board game developer.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh yeah, nice.

[Matt]

They brought out a re releasing Lord of the the Confrontation, which is a game that came out years and years ago and they did a big crowdfunding thing for it. Went amazing. But they're, they're super deluxe Ultimate Edition or whatever is an actual game table, like how people have chess tables. This is for Lord of the Rings confrontation and it's insane.

[Alan Sisto]

That was such a great Game back in the days. That was one of. I never know how to pronounce the guy's name. Rainer or Reiner Kinesia.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. That guy designed like a gazillion brilliant games, and confrontation is one of them. That.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Talk about a prolific game designer.

[Matt]

Yeah. And it's, it's a very strategic game. Like, I got to play it. I had never played it before. Played it on the big fancy table.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yeah.

[Matt]

It's got some great strategy that, that works in the elements of the story and the characters.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm gonna need a bigger studio rings. Yeah, I think you might. That sounds like a good one. That must have been fun. Your interviews are always intriguing, and I'm glad that you get a chance to talk to some of these incredible folks.

[Matt]

Yeah. And it was fun because it was up in Minnesota, so I got to check another ballpark off my list. I went to the Twins game.

[Alan Sisto]

Got to go to the Twin Cities. Yeah, right on. Well, one other thing, speaking of baseball, when you're on the show with me, people expect a few more sports references and maybe a few less Babylon 5 or 80s music references. You've been branching out a bit, right? You're not just the nerd of the rings anymore. You're the nerd of the diamond, the nerd of the hardwood, even the nerd of the ice. Talk to me about some of your sports stuff with a brief apology to our non sport viewing listeners.

[Matt]

Yeah, so I, I, I love the nerd of the diamond, hardwood and ice there. Yeah. People who follow me on, on Twitter or Instagram will notice I, I occasionally post about my sports teams, which usually

[Alan Sisto]

writes about refereeing during a Pacers game. From what I've noticed. I do.

[Matt]

Oh, my gosh. Don't even get me started on the finals. Don't even get me started on the finals.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, man. Yeah.

[Matt]

Oh, man. If Hal Burton Warren got hurt, I

[Alan Sisto]

tell you, I think you're right.

[Matt]

He was, he was on one. So my, my teams are the Chicago Cubs for baseball, Indiana Pacers for basketball, and Detroit Red Wings for ice, actually.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay, I like that you're not just a total homer, you know?

[Matt]

No, no, it's, it's because, you know, I've, I've gotten into these sports at different phases of, of my, my life. So Cubs since birth. And then I got into basketball shortly after Jordan retired the first time, which is how I got latched onto the Pacers. Big fan of Reggie Miller. It was in the heart of the Reggie Miller era.

[Alan Sisto]

I'll never forget that. Crazy outburst of points against. Was it the Knicks in just like the last 20 seconds of the ball game.

[Matt]

Just like.

[Alan Sisto]

What the heck?

[Matt]

This is so glorious. When he did it to the. When Halliburton did it to the Knicks this year.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Well, anytime you do it to the Knicks, I'm going to cheer for you.

[Matt]

Oh, my gosh.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes.

[Matt]

Yeah, I think we can bond over that. I know you're a big Dodgers guy, but at least we can bond over.

[Alan Sisto]

I've. I'm Dodgers and Lakers since birth. I mean, like, literally, as I grew up, the voice of summer was Vin Scully and the voice of winter was Chick Hearn. I mean, that. That's. And I listened to the games. Not necessarily. I mean, I'd still watch some, but for. Mostly it was a radio experience for me.

[Matt]

And you will appreciate this because upcoming on my channel, I've got an interview with one of the relief pitchers for the Los Angeles Dodgers, actually, who is a big time Lord of the Rings fan.

[Alan Sisto]

All right. On. I love that crossover. That's great.

[Matt]

Brock Stewart is his name. He pitched pitch for the Twins, got traded to the Dodgers. It's his second stint with the Dodgers. Yeah, he's a big time Lord of the Rings fan, so. So anytime he comes in for your Dodgers, you got the root extra hard for.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, I will. He needs to use, like, the ring theme as his walkout music. Ooh. Or Sauron's theme.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah. Sauron's theme. Or the Isengard theme. I've always.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, that would be great. Yeah, That's good. That's got a good rhythm to it, too. Yeah.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Watch him coming out to that music. I wouldn't want to bat against that.

[Matt]

Did you catch? I know. Like, we're. We're totally.

[Alan Sisto]

We're.

[Matt]

We're crossing over, though. This is Lord of the Rings related at this point. So during the national championship game where IU beat Miami, I think it was.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matt]

The IU band was playing the Isengard theme.

[Alan Sisto]

They were playing a ton of Lord of the Rings stuff. I think they were playing at least two or three different. But yeah, the Isengard theme kept popping up a lot.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Which is a great, great sound for a band. Yeah.

[Matt]

Another fun fact in that same. I'm just all over the place because I'm getting really excited of this crossover. But I am, too, actually. Last time I was at a Cubs game at Wrigley Field, which has been a few years ago now, I actually tweeted at the organist for the Cubs, like, You should play some Lord of the Rings music. And so we're, like, sitting there in the middle of the game, and all of a sudden I hear the fellowship theme between innings. Yeah, it was fantastic.

[Alan Sisto]

I love that.

[Matt]

So sports fans out there, you never know if you find out who the. Who's in charge of the music at your favorite sports team that you might. Might get them to play similar.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, I have to tell you, I was watching that Indiana game, championship game, with. With great enthusiasm, not only because of the music from the band, but because as a fan of the Raiders, who have the number one choice.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Though it's interesting. We're now. We're recording this before the draft, but this will be coming out after the draft. So I'm going to say with confidence, the Raiders, who chose Mendoza as the number one overall pick. I'm saying that as a past tense, even though it's future tense for me,

[Matt]

because it's a lot.

[Alan Sisto]

I think it's a lock. I was watching that game with. With rapt attention, but I. Yeah, I remember thinking, that's so cool that we get Lord of the Rings music while we're watching the national championship game.

[Matt]

That is. Yeah. Maybe he'll. Maybe he'll ask for it at the Raiders games.

[Alan Sisto]

There you go. You never know. Well, we're now done with the sports questions, so. Okay.

[Matt]

Yeah, let's get it.

[Alan Sisto]

All right. So you can come back now. Come on back. All right, Matt, you and I have chatted about adaptations a lot over the years, and I don't just mean Rings of Power. I mean, we have obviously talked about that, but we've talked about war, the Rohirrim, We've talked about video game adaptations, but let's talk a bit more. Or rather, you talk, I listen, because it's an interview. What is the one thing that you're most looking forward to for season three of the Rings of Power? And after you've answered that hard question, the easy one is, what's the one thing you're most worried about?

[Matt]

Okay. So I would say a couple things that I am. That I'm looking forward to. One, I think that by necessity, Elendil will have a bigger role going forward.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, he's got to, doesn't he? I think whether that'll be season four or not, though, I don't know.

[Matt]

Yeah, I'm not 100% sure, but I mean. So the. The older Durin was killed off. Celebrimbor is killed off.

[Alan Sisto]

Yep.

[Matt]

Adar is killed off. So, like, three of the characters that were a fairly big focus of season two are now gone. So that's screen time that's available. And I think, I think Elendil is one that like, I hope so. And Gil Galad for that matter.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh yeah.

[Matt]

The two of them need a lot more in the next two seasons before the final showdown with Sauron. Like that's. There needs to be some seeds planted for that moment to land as well

[Alan Sisto]

because that's got to be the conclusion of season five is the battle of the last alliance.

[Matt]

Yeah, the battle. Last alliance I'm sure has to be

[Alan Sisto]

Elendil and Gil Galad dying to kill Sauron. Yeah, yeah, it's got to be it.

[Matt]

So I, I think Lloyd Owen has just been such a great choice for Elendil. He's so good. Everything that he does and his approach, you know, we've both talked to him in person. Like his, his approach and his commitment to researching the character, even looking into, you know, the Notion Club papers, that's

[Alan Sisto]

a pretty deep dive for anybody to dive into the history of Middle Earth at all, you know. But for somebody who's that really is impressive. And the fact that he listens to both the Tolkien professor and the Prancing Pony podcast, that was pretty cool.

[Matt]

And I think he watches my channel too.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm sure he does.

[Matt]

Reference. He's in the deep end and I always appreciate that. Also another person, Charlie Vickers and yeah, Robert Mayo are big. They have like their own two person book club.

[Alan Sisto]

And a big shout out to Rob, by the way. Congrats on that bafta. Well earned, sir.

[Matt]

That was the other thing that I was going to say was like in the aftermath of him winning 2B.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Yeah.

[Matt]

I'm looking forward like that. That's so well deserved. Like in that. That I swear movie just looks incredible. I can't wait till it's streaming here in the States. But you know, seeing, seeing him now like having a greater focus because I'm sure the Oscar buzz for those unfamiliar the Oscars he wasn't. His movie wasn't released early enough for this year's Oscars that was just held. But next year's Oscars he'll be eligible for and I can't help but think

[Alan Sisto]

he'll at least get a nomination.

[Matt]

Yeah, I, I would hope so. And well deserved.

[Alan Sisto]

Now you're right, there's a lot of folks who, who really do appreciate the lore and we might have our gripes, you and I both about the show and. But that's not one of them. So you just told me you, you asked about concerns. You mentioned there's going to be all this extra screen time because all these characters are dead. And you're right. And I think that's what your concern is too, isn't it?

[Matt]

My concern is that we're going to get more hobbits with that screen time.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, we might.

[Matt]

If ideally in an ideal scenario, like I said at the end of season two, they have the perfect out for not having the Hobbit. Like they went off on their own, leaving what is now Gandalf behind.

[Alan Sisto]

Sorry, I just had a grand elf convulsion there.

[Matt]

Oh my gosh.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Oh dear.

[Alan Sisto]

Sorry.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Words mean things and, and just make it a pun is a little odd.

[Matt]

But, but I, I do think I, I'm just. There's nothing about the hobbits that resonates with me like there's, you know, in the same episodes at times or the, the definitely within the same show. Obviously you have these great moments of like Celebrimbor and Annatar and like Celebrimbor's death scene was so good.

[Alan Sisto]

That was an Emmy worthy sequence of episodes with those bits.

[Matt]

Yeah, those, like those, those moments were so strong and like the, the dwarf moments like between father and son, you know, there was, there was so much quality drama and heart wrenching. Like I, I still say during the fourth is the beating heart of the show. Like anytime he's sad, I'm sad. You know, anytime he's angry, I'm like he, he is in a way he's

[Alan Sisto]

the Sam of the Books. Right. Because it's Sam is the heart, the emotional heart of the Lord of the Rings. And, and, and he's the barometer.

[Matt]

He does feel that.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, you're right. Very much on the show. He is.

[Matt]

Yeah. I feel like that, you know, comparison that you just made further proves why hobbits are not needed. Because you're getting the heart that, that the hobbits bring in the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings. You've got other roles. And that's, that's the thing is like from a purely lore brain perspective, they don't belong in the second age. So that's one objection. But nothing that's, that's gone on with the hobbits on screen has convinced me that they need to be there. And so I didn't have as much

[Alan Sisto]

of a problem as you did with their presence in the first season. I was okay with that and I was okay with this sort of primitive hobbit culture. This you Know that, that. That eats their own. Not quite literally, but, you know.

[Matt]

Right. I was gonna say, nobody walks alone unless you tick us off and then we leave you for.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, it's. They're. They're a migratory group and, you know, it's a tough life and that kind of thing.

[Matt]

To me, like, a lot of the, you know, the Stranger and Hobbit storylines just feels very derivative of the Lord of the Rings in a way where, you know, the Dark wizard and Gandalf are basically having the same argument that Saruman and Gandalf have in Fellowship of the Ring.

[Alan Sisto]

There's a part of me that wonders, was that always their plan or did was there originally the idea these are going to be the two blues? I would have liked it if it was just the two blues. Yeah, I did make this different people.

[Matt]

I would have too, like, because otherwise it's like Gandalf had the same thing happened to him twice. That's kind of weird. Like, you would think he'd see it twice.

[Alan Sisto]

Always lives near a wacky possessed tree. I mean, you need to pick better areas.

[Matt]

There's just. Yeah, there's just a lot of things where I feel like if you cut out the Hobbit storyline, the. The show instantly gets stronger. It's not like, perfect by any Numenor

[Alan Sisto]

storyline is a strong storyline. And though there are some weak moments, like the whole, you know, throw them into sea kind of thing, the sea is always right.

[Matt]

Is always right.

[Alan Sisto]

There could be some improvements there, but there are a lot of really good pieces being set in place for what I think will be happening in seasons four and five, and I'm excited to see that. So, yeah, I think it sounds like your expectations, both the positive and the concerning ones, are similar. So I definitely hear you. We'll. We'll have to revisit this once the show comes out. One last thing before we get into the episode games. The Kickstarter for Foes of Middle Earth closed last month with over 800,000 raised for what looks like a killer board game. Wild. I know, I'm in on it. So you are famed for having connections throughout all of Middle Earth. Are there any other games, board games, video games on the horizon that you're excited about?

[Matt]

Okay, so I think we're both going to immediately think of the big one that we're both pumped about because of the crossover of Magic the Gathering and the Hobbit both being, you know, I was converted to Magic the Gathering through the Lord of the Rings, and you've been a magic guy for some time, so.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, I was a magic guy for like five years back in the mid to late 90s and then I didn't play for like 20 years until the Lord of the Rings.

[Matt]

Yeah, I think we've both had that on our radar ever since it was announced. Yeah. So that's a big one. Like it'll be fun to bring out the Lord of the Rings decks and refresh them with Hobbit characters and stuff or. Or do wholly new Hobbit. I'm just sitting here thinking like, is Beorn going to be a card that can like flip over? You know, so like you have human form and then you trigger an ability. It flips him over to bear and he becomes like eight.

[Alan Sisto]

Eight with trample.

[Matt]

Powerhouse or something, Right? Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Because you know he's going to have trample and what's the one where you can't be blocked by less than two creatures? I forget that menace. He's going to have a lot. He might even have reach.

[Matt]

Right. And then you know, Smaug. Well like he. He was in there's like an enchantment where it had a Smaug art. But that was. And there was a Smaug token that you could create.

[Alan Sisto]

Was.

[Matt]

But to. To see him get his own card will be pretty sweet.

[Alan Sisto]

And you have to imagine that the One Ring will no longer have the mechanics that it has in Lord of the Rings.

[Matt]

Yeah, I don't know because that wasn't really.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, yes, it was the One Ring but it wasn't used like right. In the story.

[Matt]

I don't. I don't think they'll go as One Ring heavy. I'm curious to see if they do a reprint of that card because even today it's a very popular card in the game.

[Alan Sisto]

It is for good reason. Yeah.

[Matt]

I'm curious to see what they do, you know, if it is just a straight up reprint or if they do something a bit different.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, if they do mechanically do something different. I am very excited for that one.

[Matt]

I will say another of my favorites. Over the last couple years they've been releasing Fellowship of the Ring and then this year was Two Towers. Trick taking game.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes.

[Matt]

Being from the Midwest, Euchre is in my DNA and so a trick taking game based on the storyline of Lord of the Rings. And it's so clever how it is. The designer, his name is Brian Borm Mueller and I've chatted with him on my channel before and the way he has integrated the story and characters is just fantastic. And it's and it's cooperative too.

[Alan Sisto]

I think any, I think any Lord of the Rings game is served better by being cooperative.

[Matt]

Oh, it's pretty great. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. There was a cooperative one designed by master game designer Rainer Kizia, though I please forgive any mispronunciation that was cooperative as well. But I feel like. Yeah, you're absolutely right. Any game that is cooperative really works better in that Lord of the Rings context, doesn't it?

[Matt]

So it's funny you should say that because another one that I'm really excited about is most definitely not cooperative. You are like going for the throat. It's called Circle of Conflict. That comes out later this year. I actually, I was at a board game convention recently and played it with the designer. Got like a sneak peek on it. And it's one of those that is fairly complex in the strategy. But like I was able to pick it up within just like a 20 minute gameplay session. So like walk through the game, like

[Alan Sisto]

picked it up the rule booklets, not 400 pages.

[Matt]

No, it's not that, not that complex. But the idea is that, that you're bored. Like each person has their own board and they keep it secret from everyone else. You have an evil side and a good side. Your evil side is playing against the person on your right's good side and your good side is playing on. Against the person on your left's bad side.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, so you get to play both good and evil, but against different people.

[Matt]

And you go around and like every person's role of the dice affects the gameplay of everyone. And you're assigning, you're assigning values to either side of your board and like it's going to be for the people who love strategy. I think it's, it's going to be pretty fantastic.

[Alan Sisto]

I just wish I had more people to play board games. I mean, because that is very much like your friends have to live in the same town as you to do that, you know.

[Matt]

True. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

But I love.

[Matt]

That's. That's what kids are great.

[Alan Sisto]

Or you have to go to board conventions or that's.

[Matt]

Dude, board game conventions are, are like my favorite kind of conventions. They are.

[Alan Sisto]

So I would love to go to one. I have no justification to go to

[Matt]

Con man unless I.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, maybe I can now, now that I do play, go to Gen Con. All right, when is it?

[Matt]

It is in the beginning of August.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay, so it's after, After Comic Con.

[Matt]

It is the week after Comic Con. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, gosh, I'll be so dead.

[Matt]

I do it every year and it's awesome.

[Alan Sisto]

All right, that was fun. Thank you, Matt. Appreciate it.

[Matt]

I'm always pumped to talk about games. I think games are some of the best adaptations of Tolkien's world, actually.

[Alan Sisto]

They let you get into it. I literally become a part of it. That's what makes it so intriguing. I love it.

[Matt]

Well, we should probably. After we've gone off the rails on all this discussion, we should probably get into the actual talk of today's episode.

[Alan Sisto]

We should. All right, so I'm going to start with the other versions of the story, and I'm going to start with Christopher speaking here. I have chosen to give the version printed above. And, folks, that's the version we read last week of the Hunt for the Ring as being the most finished as a narrative. But there is much other writing that bears on these events, adding to or modifying the story in important particulars. These manuscripts are confusing and their relations obscure, though they all doubtless derive from the same period. And it is sufficient to note the existence of two other primary accounts beside the one printed here for convenience, called A. A second version, B, agrees very largely with A and its narrative structure. But a third C, in the form of a plot outline beginning at a later point in the story introduces some substantial differences, and this, I am inclined to think, is the latest in order of composition. In addition, there is some material D more particularly concerned with Gollum's part in the events and various other notes bearing on this part of the history. In D, it is said that what Gollum revealed to Sauron of the Ring and the place of its finding was sufficient to warn Sauron that this was indeed but that of its present whereabouts. He could only discover that it was stolen by a creature named Baggins in the Misty Mountains, and that Baggins came from a land called Shire. Sauron's fears were much allayed when he perceived from Gollum's account that Baggins must have been a creature of the same sort. And then that's when he actually inserts a paragraph of Tolkien's text. Gollum would not know the term Hobbit, which was local and not a universal Westeron word. He would probably not use Halfling, since he was one himself and Hobbits disliked the name. That is why the black writers seem to have had two main pieces of information only to go on, Shire and Baggins. So we come back to Christopher real quickly. From all the accounts, it is clear that Gollum did at least know in which direction the Shire lay. But though no doubt more could have been wrung from him by torture. Sauron plainly had no inkling that Baggins came from a region far removed from the Misty Mountains, or that Gollum knew where it was and assumed that he would be found in the Vales of Anduin, in the same region as Gollum himself had once lived. And then we end with Tolkien's words again. This was a very small and natural error, but possibly the most important mistake that Sauron made in the whole affair. But for it, the Black Riders would have reached the Shire weeks sooner. Oh, we'll get to that, won't we? All right.

[Matt]

Yeah, we will. All right, so last week, the entirety of the text that we covered were Tolkien's own words. Christopher didn't intervene with the editorial commentary or explanation. Today, though, we start with his editorial commentary explaining that the version we read last week was simply the most finished narrative still far from the only version.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. As Christopher explains, there are lots of other writings that add to or tweak the story in places. And in the introduction to Unfinished Tales, Christopher actually acknowledges these manuscripts are in great, though hardly exceptional confusion.

[Matt]

Sounds like this podcast.

[Alan Sisto]

Well played, sir. In great confusion, though. That's really kind of the rule. Yeah, that's fair. Well played.

[Matt]

But we see here, both in the intro and here in this text, he is strongly of the opinion that these writings all come from the same time period.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that's right. I mean, like we talked about last week, that's going to be sometime between the publication of Fellowship, so July of 1954 and the publication of the Return of the King, October 1955, because it was in the process of writing the appendices that he put all this together. So pretty tight timeframe of only a little over a year. With that spelled out for us, Christopher starts to break down the individual texts. First, the one we looked at last week, the most finished version, we looked at that in its entirety. He calls that one A.

[Matt]

But then we have three others that he mentions, B, which is really similar to A, and which we'll look at in depth today. And then there's C, an outline of the plot that starts part way through, and that has significant differences to A and B.

[Alan Sisto]

And of course, Christopher thinks that C is the latest written of the manuscripts. That doesn't necessarily mean that it's the one that's authoritative, because Tolkien always goes back and forth, but it was the. The latest written. And then we have D, which he doesn't say, but appears not to be a manuscript so much as just other writings. So it's not necessarily an entire pieced together story. And these writings are focused on the part that Gollum plays in the story specifically. And it's d that we actually start with a look at here in connection with the information that Sauron learned from Gollum.

[Matt]

Just knowing that Gollum found the ring near the Gladden fields, combined with whatever things Gollum said about the ring was enough for Sauron to.

[Alan Sisto]

I wonder what those other things were though. I mean, what do you think Gollum told him? That it gave him invisibility? Do you think he told him I'm addicted to it? I mean, what about Gollum's words could have.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Made Sauron think this is the one? I mean honestly, the location enough seems clear.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean the gladden fields, that's.

[Matt]

Yeah, that's a pretty good indicator if, if they're aware of, of Isildur's fate.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, you'd think by now that his fate would be known to Sauron

[Matt]

and why I would think so too.

[Alan Sisto]

He's probably searched the area.

[Matt]

Yeah. And I think if, if he knows that Gollum was a hobbit and now sees him in his current state.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Or you know, it would take the one to do that to him.

[Matt]

Yeah. Or, or I mean even just the fact that Gollum is alive.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. When did you say you were born?

[Matt]

Yeah, right, yeah, exactly. I think that that might be the biggest one honestly, is knowing that. Okay, this is clearly a. A once mortal creature who's been around

[Alan Sisto]

for 500 years and the nine are accounted for, so.

[Matt]

Right, you're not one of my nine. You're kind of short for one of the Nazguls.

[Alan Sisto]

I don't have any robes small enough. Now I'm hearing Princess Leia. Aren't you a little short for a Nazgul? Good stuff. Well, you know, he could only discover though through all the conversations with Gollum that the ring had been taken by a Baggins from Shire while Gollum was under the Misty Mountains. Now we of course having read all the books are like, oh, I know where that is. That's Bilbo. He lives at Bag End and you know, just near Hobbitson, over by the water. That's pretty vague for Sauron. That's sort of like saying it was taken by a nerd from YouTube.

[Matt]

Right. That doesn't narrow it down.

[Alan Sisto]

Doesn't narrow it down. Yeah. I mean, even though it could have been you.

[Matt]

Yeah, it could, but there's a lot ofNerds on YouTube.

[Alan Sisto]

I don't know, it just feels like, like there's not enough to go on, especially because, yeah, Sauron doesn't have Google.

[Matt]

It's a fair Shire. Is a fairly recent development, as far as, you know, as long as Sauron's been around Third Age.

[Alan Sisto]

After the. Right before the destruction of Arnor of Arnor. Yeah, but after the split of the three Kingdoms, so. Yeah, or after the split into the three Kingdoms, I should say.

[Matt]

Yes. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, fortunately for Sauron, it turns out that Baggins isn't the name of some monstrous dragon. He's a creature, kind of like the Sniveller one in front of him. If I could. If I could get this information out of you and this Baggins guy is one of your race.

[Matt]

Piece of cake.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right.

[Matt]

That'll in no way bring about my downfall.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. That's right. I am perfectly safe.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah. In the first of two short paragraphs we get from the manuscript here, Tolkien tells us something that should be relatively obvious. Gollum, even under the torture of Sauron, wouldn't know that Baggins was a Hobbit. That's not even a word he'd have known.

[Alan Sisto]

And that's interesting, of course, because, you know, we think of Gollum. Oh, he was once a Hobbit.

[Matt]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

So why would he not know the word hobbit? Well, you've got to remember that the word Hobbit is derived from Old English, holbytla, meaning whole builder.

[Matt]

I love that word.

[Alan Sisto]

I do, too. I love that. That moment with Theoden calling him that after. Yes, because first he says, you know, halfling, and he's like, hobbits, if you please, sir. Like, don't call me that. But of course, you're a king, so I'm not gonna. Not gonna tell you not to. But the whole thing about English and Old English that we just read Hobbit and Hobitla is that those are simply representative languages of what Tolkien actually used. So those are representations of actual Westeron Kuruk and Rohirric Kudukan. And while Tolkien says Gollum wouldn't have known it because it was a local word, there is something. There's an argument to be made here. I want to go back to the Northman and look at the timeline. Matt, what do you got for us?

[Matt]

First, first, let's go to the road to Isengard in the Lord of the Rings. For when Theoden first sees Merry and Pippin, are not these the Halflings that some among us call the Hobitlan? He explains that my people came out of the north long ago. All that is said among us is that far away over many hills and rivers, live the Halfling folk that dwell in holes in the sand dunes.

[Alan Sisto]

You know how hard it is to dig holes in sand dunes?

[Matt]

Yeah, I would think that'd be very hard.

[Alan Sisto]

I don't think they live in sand dunes.

[Matt]

I'm just saying I don't think so either.

[Alan Sisto]

So Theoden's people, of course, came out of the north in 2510. They were the Eotheod, of course. And then they become the Rohir. They'd gone to the Vales of Anduin first after the invasion of the wain riders around 1856. That was when Marhwini led the Northmen there and they became the Eotheod. The thing is, we know that the Tale of Years tells us that Smeagol killed Deagle and took the One Ring in about the year 2463. Well, that means the Eotheod were still living in the Vales of Anduin around the time that Gollum's people were as well, and had been for 600 years.

[Matt]

It seems unlikely that they came up with the name Holbytla only in the 47 years between Gollum's taking of the Ring and the founding of Rohan.

[Alan Sisto]

That's true. It does, doesn't it?

[Matt]

Yeah. At the same time, how would Gollum's people know that was the Eotheod's name for their people?

[Alan Sisto]

That's a good point.

[Matt]

Whatever the case, let's take Tolkien at face value here. Gollum didn't know the term Hobbit.

[Alan Sisto]

Fair enough. I mean, I like to speculate that because his people were up there at the time the Eothod were up there, they might have heard of that name. But. Yeah, I mean, unless they were interacting with each other, which it doesn't sound like they would have.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, the Hobbits were sort of a people of myth or of legend, Right? Yeah, even to the Eotheod. So.

[Matt]

So maybe. Yeah, maybe they didn't know what they were called. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And he certainly wouldn't have liked Caffling, so he wouldn't have used it. And that's what leaves Sauron with just Shire and Baggins. Yeah.

[Matt]

Christopher says that Gollum clearly knew at least the direction the Shire was in. How did he know that? Bilbo certainly didn't tell him. In the Hobbit, in fact, the word Shire never appears in the Hobbit. And I love that tidbit.

[Alan Sisto]

It's such a cool. You just wanna. How many Times does the word Shire appear in the Hobbit? It. Oh, I don't know. Seven, eight times? No, none at all, sir. None.

[Matt]

That feels like a good trivia question to ask Stephen Colbert, I think.

[Alan Sisto]

Ooh, if I ever get Stephen Colbert to acknowledge that we exist, I've just said it.

[Matt]

So if he listens to this, he'll

[Alan Sisto]

know he doesn't listen to this. I shouldn't say he does it. If he does, he does so without ever informing us. Stephen, your secret is safe with us. But you can reach out [e-mail] Anyway, in the Lord of the Rings, Chapter 2, the Shadow of the Past, Gandalf tells us, as for the name, Bilbo very foolishly told Gollum himself and after that it would not be difficult to discover his country. Once Gollum came out, Gandalf eventually learned that his padding feet had taken him at last to Esgaroth and even to the streets of Dale, listening secretly and peering. Well, the news of the great events went far and wide in Wilderland and many had heard Bilbo's name and knew where he came from. We had made no secret of our return journey to his home in the West. Gollum's sharp ears would soon learn what he wanted. So, yeah, I mean, if he's hiding in the shadows, wandering around Dale and Esgaroth and you know all of this, he's going to find out. Oh yeah, they took their treasure and they went back west. You know, they're going to go over the Misty Mountains and you know the Dwarves were going to go back to Erebor but Gandalf and Bilbo were going back home to the Shire on the other side of the mountains.

[Matt]

Right?

[Alan Sisto]

Even if that's all he's got, he knows it lies to the west.

[Matt]

So sounds like a good. A good chance for Bard old Bard to have a cameo in Hunt for Gollum. With Gollum slurking around Dale and you could.

[Alan Sisto]

You could. That's true.

[Matt]

I don't know.

[Alan Sisto]

I don't know. They're going to try to do anything, everything they can to connect that to the existing film. So I wouldn't be surprised if they do.

[Matt]

Maybe. We'll see. We'll see. We'll get back to the text here. Sorry for the digression. Mini digression.

[Alan Sisto]

Don't be sorry for digressions. It's a trademark. How can we be sorry for what we do?

[Matt]

Yeah, but Sauron did not know this. No. This is where Gollum had learned it from. In fact, Christopher says that he had no inkling that Baggins came from someplace far from the Vales of Anduin, where Gollum's people had been. With Tolkien's own words to wrap up this section explaining that this small and natural error might just have been Sauron's biggest mistake.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a big claim because there are a few whoppers in Sauron's list of mistakes. I mean, first, frankly, though, how could he have known this, just letting Gollum go? You realize that if he had killed Gollum or kept him in prison, the Ring never would have been destroyed, right? So that's mistake number one.

[Matt]

Whoopsie.

[Alan Sisto]

Whoops. Mistake number two, and this is one he should have foreseen, really leaving the Samath now completely unguarded, thinking no one would ever want to destroy this thing. I mean, with. With not killing Gollum, it. That kind of presupposes he can read the future, which he can't. But come on, dude. The one place where the one thing that could destroy you could be destroyed. You leave unguarded because you think nobody's going to ever want to do that.

[Matt]

In the Midwest, we simply say ope. But that's not the last one. Third, we have trusting to Minas Morgul and Shelob to guard what was really the only other way into Mordor.

[Alan Sisto]

You've only got two ways in. You got them around on where nobody's sneaking in. Because, I mean, battalions of Orcs fortresses everywhere. No possible chance of getting in through there. So you've got to go in through Minas Morgul. And he leaves that like, no.

[Matt]

Yeah, they're not gonna make it through there. I'm sure it's fine.

[Alan Sisto]

It's fine. I'm not worried.

[Matt]

I've got sea spare an extra hundred Orcs. Why we don't need to do that.

[Alan Sisto]

Even though they're disposable, totally dispensable, you know.

[Matt]

Yeah, well, and then. That's not all, folks. We're still going, oh, there's more. Fourth, thinking that Pippin had the ring when he looked into the Palantir.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I know. Why didn't he just confirm that, like, you have the ring, right? Pippin wouldn't have been able to lie, right? You're stuck in that. You're like. But he just assumed, oh, I've got the guy who's got the ring.

[Matt]

There's a Halfling. Surely there's not multiple of them.

[Alan Sisto]

There can't possibly be more than one Halfling involved in this. Why would the Wise Ever use more than one?

[Matt]

Oh, he's never heard of a decoy.

[Alan Sisto]

Is that what Mary and Pippen are. Maybe I can see Elrond now. It's a good idea to send. Yeah. Okay, Frodo, if you accept this quest, I shall say you were wise. And then I need to come up with some decoys to take the heat off of you. It's not a big deal if Sam gets killed, or Mary or Pippin. So let's send them all. Send all the Hobbits.

[Matt]

We need three backup ring bearers in case he's the first.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right.

[Matt]

But. Yeah, so if Sauron had not made this mistake if he just found out more about where Baggins was before letting Gollum go the Nazgul would have arrived weeks before and Frodo never would have escaped.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, and that's actually when Barliman's delay becomes fatal. Because remember, Barliman was supposed to get that letter to him months before. And if he had, then Frodo might have left. But remember, Frodo was taking his time. I don't know.

[Matt]

Maybe I'll leave.

[Alan Sisto]

Maybe I'll leave then. I know, folks. Those of you who have seen the movies like a million times and maybe only read the books once, or never read them. 17 years pass between Bilbo leaving the Shire and Frodo finally doing the same.

[Matt]

Yes. To be fair, like, it was more pressing the second time that Gandalf. Yeah. Like, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. There was no reason for him to leave ahead of time. Right?

[Matt]

Yeah. So it wasn't. He didn't delay for 17 years. It was only a matter of months.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. April, I believe it was when Gandalf got back. Because we were talking about that just last week. Gandalf gets back from interrogating Gollum goes to the Shire.

[Matt]

It's like, hey, dude, you got to get out of here.

[Alan Sisto]

You got to. We. And you know, so he's like, all right, all right. But not right away because you don't have to get out of here right away, but get out of here soon. Go to Bree.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And then he doesn't leave until. Until September.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Five months later.

[Matt]

It's like if your wife asked you to pick your. Your son up from school at 5 and you're like, I'll be there Thursday.

[Alan Sisto]

Like, that's not gonna work.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

But yeah. I mean, can you imagine? I mean, I know there are a lot of changes that if we make them to the story the story never goes anywhere. And so you could never make this change but let's imagine a world in a world where the Nazgul knew exactly where to go. Frodo's toast, man.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

These nine Nazgul, I mean, we see what happens to the Rangers that try to stop them at Saarn Ford. That's sad. And even if Aragorn's there, I don't know that he survives against all nine under the Witch King. I don't think so. So Aragorn's dead. Most of the Rangers are dead or scattered. And then they capture the Ring. There's zero doubt they capture the Ring at that point.

[Matt]

Absolutely.

[Alan Sisto]

Story over. I mean, why did they take the Eagles and drop the Ring in Mount Doom from the air? I mean, first of all, because you can't and don't ever ask that question. Is that one of the most annoying questions you ever get? Why didn't they just fly the Eagles to Mord?

[Matt]

When people don't do it tongue in cheek, you know? Yeah, they do it.

[Alan Sisto]

Tongue in cheek is totally fine. It's. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matt]

But when people use it to like, bash on it.

[Alan Sisto]

Right? Like, Tolkien's not a very good story writer. Why don't you just do this? Like, are you kidding me?

[Matt]

I just want to point out the fact that I made a reference to a movie from the 80s, so you should be proud of it.

[Alan Sisto]

I missed it.

[Matt]

Yeah. I said game over, man.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, I didn't catch that.

[Matt]

Aliens.

[Alan Sisto]

The alien reference. Yeah.

[Matt]

1986. I had to look it up while we were talking here. I just want you to be proud

[Alan Sisto]

of me very year I graduated from high school. Yeah.

[Matt]

This is two years after I was born, so you're not allowed to make

[Alan Sisto]

those kinds of things.

[Matt]

I'm reaching back. I'm reaching back.

[Alan Sisto]

You got as much gray in your beard as I do, man.

[Matt]

I do have a lot of gray. Yeah. That's how children has affected me.

[Alan Sisto]

I know. Seriously, I look at pictures of myself from before my kids were born and it's like all rich brown. Not a single gray to be seen. Even in my 40s, they show up and it's all white now.

[Matt]

Yeah, maybe. Maybe it'll go back after your empty nesters.

[Alan Sisto]

There you go. Yeah.

[Matt]

I'm sure whatever has happened in the

[Alan Sisto]

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[Matt]

It is indeed. The PPP really does have a warm and welcoming listener community. If you've got questions or just want to talk about how much you love Middle Earth, be sure to check out our Common Room on Facebook and across all social media on Facebook. Just look for the Prancing Pony Podcast and yeah, there's a page. But you're going to want to join the group for that great fan community

[Alan Sisto]

and on every social media platform other than Facebook. We're PrancingPonyPod and and you can find our subreddit at R Prancing Pony Pod. And please be sure to check out my Daily show, today's Tolkien Times on YouTube and all your favorite podcast apps. You can get your daily Middle Earth fix there with everything from Middle Earth Map Mondays to Silmarillion Saturdays. Be sure to watch or [e-mail] Princip in the meantime, Matt, it is time to get back to the text here.

[Matt]

All right, diving back in, we read after his release from Mordor, Gollum soon disappeared into the dead Marshes where Sauron's emissaries could not or would not follow him. No other spies of Sauron could bring him any news. Sauron probably had very little power yet in Eriador and Few agents there and such as he sent were often hindered or misled by the servants of Saruman. At length, therefore, he resolved to use the Ringwraiths. He had been reluctant to do so until he knew precisely where the Ring was for several reasons. They were by far the most powerful of his servants and the most suitable for such a mission since they were entirely enslaved to their nine rings, which he now himself held. They were quite incapable of acting against his will, and if one of them, even the Witch King, their captain, had seized the one Ring, he would have brought it back to his master. But they had disadvantages. Until open war began, for which Sauron was not yet ready, all except the Witch King were apt to stray when alone by daylight. And all again save the Witch King, feared water and were unwilling, except in dire need, to enter it or to cross streams unless dry shod by a bridge. Moreover, their chief weapon was terror. This was actually greater when they were unclad and invisible, and it was greater also when they were gathered together. So any mission on which they were sent could hardly be conducted with secrecy, while the passage of Anduin and the other rivers presented an obstacle. For such reasons, Sauron long hesitated, since he did not desire that his chief enemies should become aware of his servant's errand. It must be supposed that Sauron did not know at first that anyone save Gollum and the thief Baggins had any knowledge of the Ring until Gandalf came and questioned him. Gollum did not know that Gandalf had any connection with Bilbo. He had not even known of Gandalf's existence.

[Alan Sisto]

So we skipped Christopher's introduction to this section, where he tells us that this next passage is from manuscript B. If you recall, the two small paragraphs we covered in the first section were from the Jottings and other writings that were version D. Now, Christopher points out, this version tells us more about Aragorn's part of the story, which is mentioned, but but barely in the version that we looked at last week.

[Matt]

It also gives us more information regarding Sauron's concerns about using the Nazgul. Picking up then, with Tolkien's manuscript, we read about Gollum disappearing into the Dead Marshes, which is where Aragorn captures him, remember?

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Now, apparently the place is so nasty that even Sauron's minions want nothing to do with it. And so with Gollum off the radar, none of his spies have any information. And Tolkien, playing the role of speculative narrator, says that Sauron probably didn't have a lot of power yet in Eriador. But this is one of those moments where I'm kind of like, he could have as much power as you want him to have. It's your world, Professor. But I love this because, again, it sort of goes along with this idea that he's just, you know, Reporting. Translating the story.

[Matt]

Yeah, they're translating.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's. It's another one of those beautiful pieces of inner consistency.

[Matt]

Yes. And then in a repeat of what we saw last week, we learned that the ones he does send north get either led astray or hindered by Saruman's servants. And that leads Sauron to resort to the use of the Ringwraiths.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right.

[Matt]

And he's specifically said here to have been reluctant for a few reasons.

[Alan Sisto]

And we'll compare these reasons to the ones that we saw in the first version of the story last week. But first, I want to look at the pros on this pro con list. And I can just see Sauron now getting out a piece of paper, drawing a line down the middle. Pros. Terrifying. Absolutely. No will but my own. On the negative side, terrified of water.

[Matt]

I was just gonna say I was scared of water.

[Alan Sisto]

They are the most powerful of his servants. That's what it says in this one. You compare that with last week, where it was his mightiest servants. Basically the same thing.

[Matt]

Yeah. They were entirely enslaved to their rings, which he now himself held. Compare with utterly subservient to the ring that enslaved him, which Sauron held.

[Alan Sisto]

Pretty much the same thing there as well.

[Matt]

Pretty much the same.

[Alan Sisto]

And similarly here, as a result, they were quite incapable of acting against his will last week. Compared with who had no will but his own. Again, six of one, half dozen of the other.

[Matt]

We also get an added detail here that's not pointed out in Manuscript A. That's because the Nazgul are entirely enslaved. If they found and took the One Ring, even the most powerful of them would bring it back to him.

[Alan Sisto]

I find that so interesting. Like, but would he really, you know, like, you say that. Yeah, but, but, but would he?

[Matt]

I. Yeah, that.

[Alan Sisto]

I don't know.

[Matt]

It is an interesting. You know, because occasionally that is a. A theoretical question that I'll get asked. And it's because of this line. Yeah, it's because of this line that it's like, yeah, they. You know what if the Witch King got the Ring, it's like he'd bring it back to Sauron.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, and that's the thing. I mean, even Tolkien made it very Clear. Yes, they would. They would not take the ring and take it for themselves. In letter 246, which is really a good letter and it talks about Frodo's quote unquote failure. Very importantly, it talks about how the Ringwraiths could not have attacked Frodo with violence at the Cracks of Doom when he took it himself. They would have obeyed or feigned to obey his commands. And all of that's of course because. And it's the same line as he writes here right through their nine rings which he held had primary control of their wills. But he actually talks about like what would have happened the situation as between Frodo with the ring and the eight. Because of course the Witch King actually by that point was dead or was was being reformed because he'd just been defeated on the battlefield might be compared to that of a small brave man armed with a devastating weapon faced by eight savage warriors of great strength and agility armed with poison blades. Man's weakness was he didn't know how to use his weapon yet. And he was by temperament and training averse to violence. Their weakness was that the man's weapon was a thing that filled him with fear as an object of terror in their religious cult by which they had been conditioned to treat one who wielded it with servility. So they would have basically, to summarize what he says here, they would have greeted him as Lord. They would have encouraged him to leave the Samoth Nara to look upon his new kingdom. And then they would have destroyed the entrance and Frodo would have been, you know, absolutely powerless to stop Sauron. And the confrontation would have been between Frodo and Sauron. They would not have been able to do anything to endanger the Ring. Their sole purpose was to protect its existence. There's just no way that they would have have been able to. It's not of their nature. So. Yeah, it's still. I still always say. But are you sure, you know. Yeah. Well, let's go ahead and look at the cons because this is where we get a lot more detail in this version than we did in last week's. I mean, sure, in manuscript a last week we saw this. That so great was the terror that went with them, even invisible and unclad, that they're coming forth might soon be perceived in their mission. Guest by the wise. So already not exactly stealthy, right, Matt?

[Matt]

Right. Yeah. Here we're told something quite similar, but it's even stronger because now we're told it's not just that the terror is great. Even when invisible and unclad, the terror is actually greater in that case.

[Alan Sisto]

That's interesting. Yeah.

[Matt]

And it's also more amplified when they're all together.

[Alan Sisto]

So it's not even invisible. Like, oh well, maybe they're not quite as scary. No, they're still pretty scary. It's that they're even more scary. So it's quite unstealthy. This is not what you use if you're trying to be secretive about what you're doing. But the new information is what's interesting. And there are two bits in particular, though I should say right up front that neither of these drawbacks apply to the Witch King. He is just that good. That's right. He is the Witch King.

[Matt]

He is. The first is that unless they're all together, they're likely to wander off during the daytime. Which is funny. I love that in and of itself is like dogs. Their dogs coming across squirrels or something. They just start wandering off like you got to put them on a leash. But recall last week the footnote that we read saying that Kamul was the one whose power was most confused and diminished by daylight.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, and I do love this idea. But the second and actually more problematic concern is that they're all terrified of water. So much so that except in dire need. And boy do I want to know exactly what that means. They won't cross rivers except on a bridge. The footnote here reminding us that only the Witch King and two others with the lure of the ring straight before them had dared to enter the river. Talking about at the Gray Flood when they were going after Frodo. The rest were driven into the river by Glorfindel and Aragorn. Why are they afraid of water? What in the world?

[Matt]

Right?

[Alan Sisto]

What is the deal here? What do you think it is?

[Matt]

I don't know. Like, I. I honestly don't know. I just immediately think when they do go after Frodo though, and the waters come rushing, I'm like, it's like putting an arachnophobe in a room of spiders.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, it's like I'm thinking Indiana Jones snakes. Why did it have to be snakes?

[Matt]

Yes. Like that did nothing to help that fear.

[Alan Sisto]

I was gonna say. Now it's baked in. And maybe the. The ring was the thing that constituted dire need and drove two of them so. Yeah. But I wonder what else would constitute dire need? Because you don't think of the Witch King as the kind of like a nice boss who is going to give You. You know, your vacation that you request, you know, every time. This is not a guy you want to work for. And so I think dire need is anytime he tells you you have a

[Matt]

dire need, anytime he says yes.

[Alan Sisto]

I don't care if you're afraid of the water. Of course, this whole time I'm thinking of them being afraid of the water. I'm thinking of the aliens from Signs. Did you see Signs?

[Matt]

Yes. Oh, yes, of course.

[Alan Sisto]

So it's like swing away, Meryl.

[Matt]

That's right.

[Alan Sisto]

Nazgul, afraid of water.

[Matt]

Actually, I recently showed that movie to my kids and I won't.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, great movie. Yeah.

[Matt]

I won't tell you what grade I was in when that movie came out. Just.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, shush. Don't grade. You were in a grade. Wow, that hurts.

[Matt]

On that note, at the end of all this, Sauron has to weigh two factors in using the ring rates.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah?

[Matt]

The inability for them to do this secretly because everyone's going to know it's them. And the logistical problems about crossing the giant river that lies between them and the direction of the Shire.

[Alan Sisto]

Not to mention all the other smaller rivers, but especially the Anduin.

[Matt]

Yes, the Anduin. And these concerns gave Sauron enough pause that he waited a long time before dispatching the Ringwraiths.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, we also learned that Sauron would not have believed that anyone other than Gollum and whoever. Whatever Baggins was would know about the Ring. And this is interesting, we're even told Gollum didn't know who Gandalf was. Don't you know who I am?

[Matt]

He's famous. Come on.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Or that he was connected with Bilbo until after Gandalf questioned him in Thranduil's halls. The footnote reminding us, of course, that he spoke of questioning Gollum during the Council of Elrond. So interesting. So Sauron thinks the existence of the Ring is that secret, but why would Gollum and Baggins necessarily keep that knowledge to themselves? Like what? Yeah, is he counting on.

[Matt]

That's a pretty good point.

[Alan Sisto]

The terrifying nature of the Ring, or, like, the beneficial invisibility. Is he counting on that being the reason why these mortal ring bearers wouldn't tell anyone?

[Matt]

Right. Or, you know, is it something, you know because he's passed out rings before? Obviously quite a few, yeah. Is it. Is it based on, you know, the. The behavior of the Ringwraiths when they were men? You know, is. Is there something within the Rings that, you know, he had a hand in themselves? Is there something within them that makes people Want to be secretive about them. You know, maybe you would think that he would have the most knowledge about the ring that has his essence baked in.

[Alan Sisto]

You think you.

[Matt]

So maybe, yeah, maybe he's got some insight and he knows that mortals just can't help but keep this secret and safe.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a fair point. Like he would just know the nature, the very nature of the ring itself kind of mandates or like it's not even like an order, it's just the nature of it prevents anybody from talking.

[Matt]

You're just, you're just going to keep it a secret because it's your precious.

[Alan Sisto]

Speaking of precious, what about Gollum's lack of knowledge about Gandalf? What do you think of that?

[Matt]

Right? Like omg, he's so famous.

[Alan Sisto]

You think you would know. I mean, what do you mean you don't know who he is? He's got like 20 million followers on Instagram. How do you not know? Now I picture Gandalf's social media accounts. He's got one for, you know, Incanus and oh, I forget. I go on that one only every couple months. Tharkoon, I haven't been on that in six months. I've got a social media manager handles that one. I'm on with Randir all the time though. Be, be sure to email me there. I mean it's just like what?

[Matt]

Yeah, I, I, I guess, I mean I don't know why he necessarily, unless, unless he overheard something at Dale. I don't know why he would know who Gandalf was.

[Alan Sisto]

And even if heard something at Dale, would he know that Gandalf is the name of a, of a wizard? Right. I mean, right. How do you know that he would. Yeah, I don't, I think that's not a big deal that he doesn't know.

[Matt]

Yeah, I don't think so.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I mean it's an interesting aside and it's I think important for us as readers to know. But why would Gollum know who Gandalf is? Yeah, Gandalf's not going out and about like, you know, making a big deal of himself. He's, it's not like he wants, it's not, he's against publicity, but he's not looking for it either. You know, he's not trying to be secret.

[Matt]

But don't we admire that about him though? Like he's, we do his own horn.

[Alan Sisto]

That's no great thing. Yeah, Gandalf's a great guy. That is true.

[Matt]

Now before we move on, it's worth pointing out that in manuscript A last week we went straight from this moment Sauron looking at his pros and cons list to his launching of attacks against Thranduil and Gondor. Yeah, and that's gonna happen here too. But we have an entire section about Aragorn's journey and Sauron's gathering of intelligence before we get to that.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, we do, and I'll actually read that. So. So according to Aragorn, Gollum was taken at nightfall on February 1st. Hoping to escape detection by any of Sauron's spies he drove Gollum through the north end of the Amen Muil and crossed Anduin just above Sarngebyr. Driftwood was often cast up there on the shoals by the east shore and binding Gollum to a log he swam across with him and continued his journey north by tracks as westerly as he could find through the skirts of Fangorn and so over Limlight then over Nimrodel and Silverlode through the eaves of Lorien and then on avoiding Moria and Dimril Dale over Gladden until he came near the Carrock. There he crossed Anduin again with the help of the beornings and passed into the forest. The whole journey on foot was not much short of 900 miles and this Aragorn accomplished with weariness in 50 days reaching Thranduil on 21st March. It is thus most likely that the first news of Gollum would be learned by the servants of Dol Guldur after Aragorn entered the forest. For though the power of Dol Guldur was supposed to come to an end at the Old Forest road its spies were many in the wood. The news evidently did not reach the Nazgul commander of Dol Guldur for some time and he probably did not inform Barad Dur until he had tried to learn more of Gollum's whereabouts. It would then no doubt be late in April before Sauron heard that Gollum had been seen again apparently captive in the hands of a man this might mean little. Neither Sauron nor any of his servants yet knew of Aragorn or who he was. But evidently later, since the lands of Thranduil would now be closely watched possibly a month later Sauron heard the disquieting news that the wise were aware of Gollum and that Gandalf had passed into Thranduil's realm. Sauron must then have been filled with anger and alarm. He resolved to use the Ringwraiths as soon as he could for speed rather than secrecy was now important Hoping to alarm his enemies and disturb their councils with the fear of war, which he did not intend to make for some time. He attacked Thranduil and Gondor at about the same time.

[Matt]

All right, we fast forward a bit from Gollum disappearing into the Dead Marshes to news of Gollum's capture by Aragorn reaching Sauron. And while we don't know when or even how the news reached him, Tolkien suggests it was likely long after the fact.

[Alan Sisto]

So how do you think Sauron found out? I mean, I mean clearly you've got spies of Dol Guldur in the northern part of the forest. They get the news to that particular guy, which we happen to know is Kamuul, and then he probably finalizes some of that information, confirms it it before sending it on to Sauron. But how does he get it to Sauron? Like carrier pigeon. I mean, what. I mean, I'm assuming it's one of the other Nazgul. He has a Nazgul that he uses as a messenger, so.

[Matt]

Right, yeah, I think Nazgul is the most likely scenario.

[Alan Sisto]

Super important information.

[Matt]

Yeah, I think that area. It's not like there's a lot standing in their way.

[Alan Sisto]

No, that's true.

[Matt]

Going from Dol Guldurg to Mordor, there's not.

[Alan Sisto]

No.

[Matt]

Any civilization.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, there's nothing there that's fair.

[Matt]

Brown lands, like, you know, they're empty.

[Alan Sisto]

The Tagger lad. Empty.

[Matt]

Yeah, they can. They can go pretty easily. So yeah, that's. That's not much of a stretch to think. Dol Guldur, I think, is the most likely place for that news to come from.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, probably. So we come back to Aragorn's journey here and man, it is a doozy. He captures Gollum on February 1st and heads north through the Immanuemil, crossing the

[Matt]

river at a spot we've not seen anyone cross before, just above the rapids. The text explaining that he used a log of driftwood to tie Gollum to and then swim across the river, which

[Alan Sisto]

I love that I do too. One imagines that swimming across the Anduin is a viable option, but not for an army. Right. It's a viable option for one person and arguably one very much in shape person.

[Matt]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Otherwise you really can only cross the Anduin at Osgiliath where there's a bridge, the Undeeps, which there's a natural ford there as it's shallow and then the bridge near the cach.

[Matt]

As for the driftwood, we see a couple moments that suggest this is certainly the case. One is at the very end of Farewell to Lorien as the company are heading south. It says Frodo sat and listened to the faint lap and gurgle of the river, fretting among the tree roots and driftwood near the shore until his head nodded and he fell into an uneasy sleep.

[Alan Sisto]

Now the more well remembered moment is Sam talking about the log with eyes. That was in fact Gollum. That incident was the day before they reached Sarn Gabir as well. I got a question for you, Matt. I mean, I love the log. I really do. And, yeah, I don't know if we talked about this before. I feel like it's almost deja vu.

[Matt]

I think. I think we might have.

[Alan Sisto]

I think we might have. I don't know if we talked about it last week. The Hunt for the Ring. Ring was of course, written after Fellowship was published. So it's probably flipped in the sense that Tolkien thought about that was like, I'm going to use that here in Hunt for the Ring. But do you think maybe in the sense of the story, Gollum got the idea to use the log to disguise himself from this incident that happened with Aragorn?

[Matt]

Yeah, I kind of thought about that as well. I love that theory that in retrospect, when Gollum is tracking them, he has this moment of inspiration. He's like, well, actually, I remember that log.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm gonna do this. Yeah, I can see that happening.

[Matt]

I can follow. Convenient.

[Alan Sisto]

That was a great idea, Aragorn. It's funny because it's almost Tolkien inspiring himself. Like, ooh, I wrote this incident with the log and the driftwood, so. So I'm going to use the log and the driftwood in this story that actually takes place before, but I'm writing it later.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

So we think of Gollum using inspiration from his past, but it's actually inspiration from his future because that's what Tolkien wrote it. Yeah. So now Aragorn and Gollum are on the west side of the Anduin now. Right. They've crossed over and Aragorn continues north. But the text takes pains to tell us on roads that are as far as far west as can be. What do you think the reason is for that?

[Matt]

I think the natural conclusion is to be as far from Dol Guldor as possible.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, I mean, yeah, that's not a place any of us want to go.

[Matt]

Yeah. I mean, and let's face it, Aragorn's ancestor met a very poor end traveling this very area. So that is true. He's gonna be careful around here.

[Alan Sisto]

Sensitive. Yeah, he's probably got some ideas about what. What to do, what not to do here.

[Matt]

Going back to the text we see he goes by the edge of Fangorn, crosses the Limlight, Nimrodel and Silverload, that is. He's going between Lorien and the Misty Mountains here. And in fact, he goes through the eaves of Galadriel and Celeborn's Realm, which

[Alan Sisto]

is why the footnote reminds us of Gandalf telling the Council that messages came to me out of Lorian that Aragorn had passed that way and that he'd found the creature called Gollum. But Aragorn avoids the Dimril Dale, crosses the Gladden. Not the Gladden Fields, but the Gladden river closer to its source in the Misty Mountains, and makes his way all the way up past the road that Thorin and company took in the Hobbit. He goes a long way north.

[Matt]

Yeah. Beorn's people help him cross the Anduin again, this time heading towards Mirkwood and into the Dark Forest. By the time he reaches Thranduil Halls, which are on the far side of Merck Wood and north of where the Bay awnings are, it's March 21st, we are told.

[Alan Sisto]

Man. So he's covered 900 miles on foot in just 50 days. And that is an astonishing 18 miles per day. And that's, of course. I mean, I could. I could walk 18 miles a day. I don't know.

[Matt]

Oh, easy.

[Alan Sisto]

But not for 50 days in a row. Like, I need a break, man. It just. It's also unimaginably difficult in the terrain that he's having to go through. And while carrying an unhelpful golem in a sack. Right. That alone has got to make this so hard.

[Matt]

I mean, just, it's. It's like dragging a toddler with you. I wouldn't want to do that.

[Alan Sisto]

A toddler who hates you 18 miles a day if you take your eyes

[Matt]

off of him and will bite you. Clearly.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes. And call you all sorts of nasty names and stinks to high heaven.

[Matt]

Which, I mean, we're just describing a toddler here. Let's be kind of.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah, he'll bite you. And he pretty much hates you. Yeah. That's fair. I did look up. Because I always do this, right? I'm always like, is that even reasonably feasible? It sounds like it is. 18 miles a day. I mean, we hear about armies marching farther than that. So an individual. Sure. So I looked it up. The closest feet of sort of like insane distance that I could find. The fastest hike of the Appalachian Trail there was. A man recently covered the 2,190 mile trip. So more than double the distance in just under 46 days. That's covering an astonishing 47 miles a day on foot. But. But that guy's an accomplished ultra runner. Number one, two, he would have support for supplies and logistics and all of that. And number three, he doesn't carry a golem in a sack. So I'm pretty impressed with what Aragorn has accomplished here.

[Matt]

That's pretty good. Yeah, no Gollum. I do want to see that guy. Bring a toddler with him on this trip and then we can, we can say, we can make some declarations.

[Alan Sisto]

Also no supporter logistics. Carry it all on your own, forage for your own food.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Totally different ball game.

[Matt]

He does, he does have help, presumably. He passes right by Lorien. He gets help from the Beornings, so that's not nice.

[Alan Sisto]

That's true. He does get help from the be

[Matt]

awnings, but I mean, and he's clearly an ultra runner because him and Gimli and Legolas make that crazy run through Rohan.

[Alan Sisto]

Wing foot, I name you. Yeah, you are. You've. You've done a deed worthy of song. That's a fair point. Yeah.

[Matt]

But the footnote here is telling us what we learned last week. That Gandalf arrived at thranduil's halls on March 23rd, that's two days later. And left on March 29th after interrogating Gollum on his return trip to the Shire. He was on foot to the Carrick, then acquired a horse, presumably from the Beornings, then a fresh horse in Rivendell.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. So he returned to Hobbiton on April 12th. When we talked about that earlier in this episode. So that's a 14 day journey covering 800 miles. That is different than the 40 day, 700 mile version of the story that Tolkien had jotted down in the margins. And we're going to talk about that in the postscript. And it makes a lot more sense to have this timeline.

[Matt]

Tolkien goes back to speculating when and how Sauron got the news, figuring that the first useful info would have been discovered by Kamil servants at Dol Guldur,

[Alan Sisto]

not when he passed by in the south, because remember then he was on the west side of the Anduin, skirting the eaves of Lorien again trying to avoid detection by Dol Guldurg. But once he enters Mirkwood after getting help from the Beornings, probably a week, maybe 10 days before his arrival at the Elven King's Hall. So let's assume March 10th, 15th then.

[Matt]

But news travels slowly. This would have been the servants and spies in the North, Tolkien saying that the Nazgul, commander of Dol Guldur didn't find out for a while longer, and that even after he did, he'd want more info before sending news to Sauron.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, you don't want to send him half baked information. You want to be able to say this is actually happening.

[Matt]

Yeah, you get bad intel to Sauron and it's not going to go well for you.

[Alan Sisto]

No, it's not going to go well for you. So it's at least late April before Sauron had heard about Gollum and where he'd been seen. And by that point, of course, Gandalf has already arrived in Hobbiton and the entire chapter of the Shadow in the Past has been finished.

[Matt]

That's right.

[Alan Sisto]

So it's definitely a little late. But even with the news that Gollum's been seen in the north of Mirkwood as captive of a man, well, what's Sauron going to do with that information?

[Matt]

At this point, Sauron doesn't know about Aragorn, let alone who he really is. Yeah, but later, unknown as to when, but maybe late May, early June, Sauron learns that the Wise knew about Gollum, I. E. Gandalf, galadriel, elrond, etc.

[Alan Sisto]

Right. The very people that were a factor in his delaying the sending of the Ringwraiths. I mean, remember, he feared that their mission couldn't be secret, and he didn't want the Wise to know that he was out looking.

[Matt]

Tolkien writes that this must have filled Sauron with anger and alarm and finally caused him to decide to use the Ringwraiths.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm picturing Sauron just like, you know, absolutely having a breakdown in Barad Dur. Totally yelling at everybody, just flipping over tables, chairs. Don't go see the boss. He's losing it. He's absolutely losing it today. Yeah, so forget stealth and secrecy. He needs the information now, if not the Ring itself. And that makes me wonder, what are the objectives that he gives to the nazca? Like what, what do you think their stated mission is? Their priorities?

[Matt]

Get the Ring is number one.

[Alan Sisto]

You think get the Ring is the number one priority? Or just get information first?

[Matt]

I mean, it's. I mean, that's the overall goal.

[Alan Sisto]

That's true. It's sort of like if opportunity strikes, get the Ring.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

But mostly I'm looking for News of Baggins and Shire.

[Matt]

Yeah, I think, I think obviously they're, they're tracking down anything they can find on Shire and Baggins. And I think, you know, is it fair to say that this is when the clock starts ticking for Sauron? Where, where he feels like, okay, the secrets out they've found out about Gollum, like, you know, we've really got to go. This is, you know, we see time and again that Sauron is, is forced to act earlier than he wants to.

[Alan Sisto]

And every time that happens, it's a. It's to his. Exactly.

[Matt]

It's to his detriment. And so like, this is, this is kind of maybe the first instance of that, I think it's fair to say, where, where it's like, oh crap, we've got to act quickly.

[Alan Sisto]

In a way, though, it was his own delay that caused this problem because like we talked about in the last section if he'd sent them out earlier and just said, start looking, you know, wherever, he might have gotten to the Shire earlier and then the ring never would have even left.

[Matt]

So this is why he's so pressed every other time because he's like, remember how I waited too long on that other thing?

[Alan Sisto]

If I, if I just acted sooner?

[Matt]

Yeah. And so now, from now on, from this point on, he's going to act sooner and it's going to back backfires.

[Alan Sisto]

That backfires. So now we end up in, in this text we end up where we ended up in manuscript A last week with Sauron using that two pronged approach attacking Thranduil and Gondor at the same time. Very similar to last week.

[Matt]

And here we're specifically told that he wanted them to think he was starting a war but he had zero intention of doing that. For a while, at least.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, he hadn't built up his forces. Right.

[Matt]

Yeah. And the footnote here reminding us that the story here is consistent with the tale of Years in that the date of the assault on Osgiliath is June 20th in both cases.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. And in the part that we skipped reading we are given Sauron's goals in this double attack one of which aligns with manuscript A and last week's version.

[Matt]

Last week it was to test the strength and preparedness of Denethor and that the Nazgul's appearance was just to look like part of his policy of war against Gondor. Compare this to. To force passage of the Bridge of Osgiliath so that the Nazgul could cross while testing the strength of Gondor Very similar.

[Alan Sisto]

Virtually identical again. 6 of 1, half dozen of the other, as they say. But. But last week the stated purpose was simply to recapture Gollum. This week we get a different version. To capture or kill Gollum or at least to deprive his enemies of him. That's significant.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, it's no longer like golems on our side. We want to capture him, get him back. It's. If we can't get him back, we need to kill him.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, the last thing we can afford is him to be mouthing off to the wise.

[Matt]

Yeah, blathering. Yeah, that's right. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I was having a chat with Sauron and told him about Shire and Baggins.

[Matt]

And it isn't kind of amusing that it's like you were the one who released him. You already captured him. You could have killed him or just

[Alan Sisto]

kept him captured, which clearly the elves of Northern Mirkwood were unable to do.

[Matt]

Right, yes, it's good to know that Sauron, I don't know which is worse. To lose him from captivity out of semi incompetence or to intentionally release him when you shouldn't have.

[Alan Sisto]

Except that he thought that, well, if I let him go, he might lead me to Shire, he might lead me to the Ring.

[Matt]

And that was a lie.

[Alan Sisto]

And that was a lie, dear reader. Yeah. And then of course, you know, as we'll get to, we'll get to Thranduil's competence as a jailer. After the birthday break, It's time to bring on the blooms at the Home Depot with Spring Garden deals. Find savings on hanging baskets and flowers to brighten your backyard or any space that needs instant color. Then get everything you need to plant and protect them with low prices guaranteed on soil and mulch. Dig into Spring Garden details deals for four days at the Home Depot now through May 10th exclusion supply. See homedepot.com pricematch for details.

[Matt]

Ready to soundtrack your summer with Red Bull Summer All Day Play? You choose a playlist that fits your summer vibe the best. Are you a festival fanatic, a deep end dj, a road dog or a trail mixer? Just add a song to your chosen playlist and put your summer on track. Red Bull Summer All Day Play. Red Bull gives you wings. Visit Red Bull.com BrightSummerAhead to learn more. See you this summer experience. A membership that backs what you're building with American Express Business platinum unlock. Over $3,500 in business and travel value annually with statement credits on select purchases from brands like Dell, Hilton and Adobe. And other benefits American American Express Business Platinum there's nothing like it. Based on total potential value of statement, credits on select purchases and other benefits, enrollments, required monthly and other limits and terms apply. Learn [e-mail] Business Platinum. We told you about the amazing PPP community after our earlier break. If you're a part of that community and want to enjoy something even more special, come join the Fellowship of the Podcast on Patreon. You get to be in the best discord community around, one that includes host hangouts and even live episode recordings.

[Alan Sisto]

And your support there is what enables me to work full time doing all of these shows, the ppp, Today's Tolkien Times, Rings of Power Wrap up, and my streaming show the PPP Plays. When you join, you can also get episode postscripts, ad free episodes, free merch, and more.

[Matt]

And you can join our questions after Nightfall episodes or even appear as a guest in the north wing. Go to patreon.com prancingponypod to show your support and join the Fellowship of the Podcast.

[Alan Sisto]

And don't forget to rate and review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And please recommend us to your friends. Matt, how about you pick up where I left off. Let's get back into the story.

[Matt]

All right. My father nowhere explained the Ringwraith's fear of water. In the account just cited, it is made a chief motive of Sauron's assault on Osgiliath, and it reappears in detailed notes on the movement of the Black Riders in the Shire. Thus of the rider who was in fact Kamul of Dol Guldur, seen on the far side of Buckleberry Ferry just after the Hobbits had crossed. It is said that he was well aware that the ring had crossed the river, but the river was a barrier to his sense of its movement, and that the Nazgul would not touch the elvish waters of Barenduin. But it is not made clear how they crossed other rivers that lay in their path, such as the Grey Flood, where there was only a dangerous ford formed by the ruins of the bridge. My father did indeed note that the idea was difficult to sustain. The account of the vain journey of the Nazgul up the vales of Anduin is much the same in version B as in that printed in full above A, but with the difference that in B the store settlements were not entirely deserted at that time, and such of the stores as dwelt there were slain or driven away by the Nazgul. In all the texts, the precise dates are slightly at Variance both with each other and with those given in the Tale of Years. These differences are here neglected. In D is found an account of how Gollum fared after his escape from the Orcs of Dol Guldur and before the Fellowship entered the West Gate of Moria. This is in a rough state and has required some slight editorial revision. It seems clear that, pursued both by Elves and Orcs Gollum crossed the Anduin, probably by swimming, and so eluded the hunt of Sauron. But being still hunted by the Elves and not yet daring to pass near Lorien, only the lure of the Ring itself made him dare to do this. Afterwards he hid himself in Moria. That was probably in the autumn of the year, after which all trace of him was lost.

[Alan Sisto]

All right, so we skipped a paragraph recapping what happened with Gollum in part because it's very similar to what we already know. We'll still cover it, though, even if it's just for a cool appearance by both Boromir and Faramir. No spoilers yet.

[Matt]

So Gollum escapes. He's not killed by the Orcs attacking Thranduil, nor is he captured. Such effective prison wardens, those Mirkwood Elves.

[Alan Sisto]

Seriously, let's revisit that moment in the Council of Elrond. I love this, because it's so embarrassing for Thranduil. Legolas has just announced that he is here to bring the news that Gollum has escaped. Matt.

[Matt]

Escaped? Cried Aragorn. That is ill news, indeed. We shall all rue it bitterly, I fear. How came the folk of Thranduil to fail in their trust? Not through lack of watchfulness, said Legolas but perhaps through overkindliness. And we fear that the prisoner had aid from others and that more is known of our doings than we could wish. We guarded this creature day and night at Gandalf's bidding much though we wearied of the task. But Gandalf bade us hope still for his cure and we had not the heart to keep him ever in dungeons under the earth where he would fall back into his old black thoughts.

[Alan Sisto]

Later, after Gloin's brief interruption. You're less kind to me. Legolas is allowed to tell the rest of the story. In the days of fair weather, we led Gollum through the woods. And there was a high tree standing alone far from the others, which he liked to climb. Often we let him mount up to the highest branches until he felt the free wind. But we set a guard at the tree's foot. One day he refused to come down, and the guards had no mind to climb after him. Him, he had learned the trick of clinging to boughs with his feet as well as with his hands. So they sat by the tree far into the night. It was that very night of summer, yet moonless and starless, that Orcs came on us unawares. We drove them off after some time. They were many and fierce, but they came from over the mountains and were unused to the woods. When the battle was over, we found that Gollum was gone and his guards were slain or taken. Taken. It then seemed plain to us that the attack had been made for his rescue and that he knew of it beforehand. How that was contrived, we cannot guess. But Gollum is cunning, and the spies of the enemy are many.

[Matt]

As for the spies of the enemy, Tolkien in one of the manuscripts writes one or more of the Ringwraiths actually direct the attack on Thranduil when Gollum escapes. So that's Gollum then. As for the battle in the south, the Nazgul make their way across the bridge.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Now they attack with a smaller force than Gondor would have imagined. But that's because, like we know from what he said, I'm not really going to start the war yet. They weren't really attacking to take Gondor. They were just there to test the strength and provide cover. Basically, once the Witch King revealed himself in his full terror, they were able to then cross freely and head north.

[Matt]

The footnote here taking us back to the Council again and Boromir's words about this moment. A power was there that we have not felt before. Some said that it could be seen like a great black horseman, a dark shadow under the moon.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, the footnote does not give us the rest of that, but we will. Boromir continues. Wherever he came, a madness filled our foes. But fear fell on our Bolest, so their horse and man gave way and fled. Only a remnant of our eastern force came back, destroying the last bridge that still stood amid the ruins of Osgiliath. I was in the company that held the bridge until it was cast down behind us. Four only were saved by swimming, my brother and myself and two others.

[Matt]

Speaking of his brother Faramir gets a mention in this paragraph. Boromir and Faramir were able to drive back the enemy and destroy the bridge.

[Alan Sisto]

But there is a catch, a caveat. They were basically allowed to get back, to survive, because the attack had already served its purpose. I do love, though, the way that Tolkien phrases it without belittling the valor of Gondor. I'm not trying to say Boromir and Faramir aren't brave, but they wouldn't have done that if they hadn't been allowed to.

[Matt]

Yeah, right. Now to the part we did read. It's mostly Christopher's editorial notes, beginning with a long discussion about the Ringwraith's apparent fear of water, a fear that Tolkien doesn't ever explain anywhere.

[Alan Sisto]

Anywhere. It would so be nice. So not only was that fear of water a big reason why Sauron attacked Osgiliath, this fear of water also features in the Nazgul's movements in the Shire. Kamuul was, it turns out, the Ringwraith seen by the Hobbits back across the Bucklebury Ferry. And it turns out Tolkien has some notes on this. He knew the Ring had crossed the river, but the water itself was a barrier to his sense of its movement. Like a, like a smokescreen or the fog of war in a real time strategy game, apparently. Like, oh no, I can't scout that far. I only have a scouting range of two hexes. And now he's across the river.

[Matt]

Yeah. Also none of them would touch the Elvish waters of Baranduan. Okay, but how did you cross the other rivers then? Like the Gray flood at Tharbad where there's no bridge? Yeah, you're. You're not crossing dry shot there, fellas.

[Alan Sisto]

I wonder, I mean, like, is it because this is an Elvish river? But if that's the case, why is it an Elvish river? What makes this. Yeah, is it the name just called the Brandywine instead of the brand doing. And now it's a Hobbit river?

[Matt]

I don't know. Is there a ceremony to become an Elvish river?

[Alan Sisto]

To become an Elvish river?

[Matt]

Do they put something in it? Like when Chicago dyes the river green? Patrick's.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, maybe, Maybe. I don't know. But we do get another note in the manuscript that might hint at how they finally crossed. And in that note we read that after the attack on Thranduil, quote, two or three Nazguls still prowl about Rohan and in Dunland and up towards Eregion. They are rather timid and ineffectual without the Witch King. Also, they will not cross Greyflood into enemy Elvish country without his leadership or express command. That's interesting. So once again we get. They're not only timid and ineffectual, they wander off in the daytime. I mean, these guys, man, they're terrifying, but they're also totally incompetent That's a really interesting.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And. And they're like, no, we're not going to go into that place. Nope, we're not. Unless you expressly command us to. Okay. You've expressly commanded us to. I guess we'll go there now.

[Matt]

I guess we'll go.

[Alan Sisto]

Would that maybe be the dire need, right? Being being ordered by the Witch King could amount to the dire need to cross the water?

[Matt]

Yeah, I would think so. I think. I think if the Witch King tells you to do something, then it's sort

[Alan Sisto]

of like Sauron telling the Witch King to do something. Yeah, it's right. Yeah. It all rolls downhill, as they say.

[Matt]

It does. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, man.

[Matt]

So we see. Christopher concludes, my father did indeed note that the idea was difficult to sustain.

[Alan Sisto]

The idea that they were terrified of water.

[Matt]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. That is difficult to sustain.

[Matt]

Yeah. His dad didn't give him any help on this one.

[Alan Sisto]

No, they're just afraid of water, son, I don't need to explain to you why they're just afraid of. Afraid of water.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Tell Mel to swing away.

[Matt]

Yeah. What is like, I. I'm trying.

[Alan Sisto]

Why would they be afraid of water? What would it do to them?

[Matt]

Is it like something.

[Alan Sisto]

Are they like the Wicked Witch of the West? I just become a pile of black robes.

[Matt]

Right. Can you imagine, like, Eowyn throwing a bucket of water on the Witch King and him shriveling up, like, certainly be a choice compared to stabbing him in the face.

[Alan Sisto]

In the face. Yeah, that would be. And because they are afraid of water. You could have actually done that. You could have. Instead of waving a firebrand around on the top of of weathertop, Aragorn should just started using a mister. Like, when your cat gets in places you don't want to spray him in the face of the water.

[Matt]

Do you think that's why there's. Why there's no Nazgul stationed with the Corsairs? You know, it's like, maybe they're not

[Alan Sisto]

going to go on the boats. They're not going to go on the boat. No.

[Matt]

Got to outsource that.

[Alan Sisto]

We are a land force. You can be the navy. We want nothing to do with that. That's a good point. Yeah. I think that might be exactly why you don't have one or two of them with the Corsairs. Interesting. And I don't know if Tolkien would have stayed with it, because, like Christopher says, my father even noted that this idea was difficult to sustain. It's interesting, though, because you got to give a creature of that Power Some sort of weakness in terms of plot. You can't make nine absolutely omnipotent beings. You've got to give them weaknesses. And the one is their presence alone is terrifying and therefore they can't be stealthy. That's a good one. But this seems like random pulled out of a hat. Let me throw in. It's sort of like when you roll a character in D and D and you can pick advantage of and disadvantage to give yourself more points and things. Yeah, like if I take this disadvantage, I get two extra points to spend on skills. Like my character is afraid of heights. Okay, you're minus two there. But now you get two extra points to. But then something happens. The DM inevitably makes you climb a ladder. You gotta roll to succeed and stuff like that. Like no. So it is interesting that the Nazgul have a total fear of water. Oh man. Anyway, we then return to the journey of the Nazgul to Gollum's home region of the Vales of Anduin. We're looking around. I've looked in the couch cushions of the Anduin. There's no Shire. No Shire to be found. Yeah.

[Matt]

Christopher explains that the version we just read, which was B was essentially the same as what we read last week in A. The only difference, which is a pretty significant one here, is that in B the store settlements aren't abandoned or ruins. Instead the stores that are left get driven off or killed by the Nazgul.

[Alan Sisto]

We are here for your rings should

[Matt]

have stayed in the Shire.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. I don't think the ones that were there in the Vales of Anduin, I don't think they ever made it to the Shire. These would have been the ones. Because there were different migrations.

[Matt]

Because some of them came back.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, some of them came back. Some of them.

[Matt]

Yeah. I guess they didn't all leave.

[Alan Sisto]

Some of them had made it all the way down into the Angle. And I think some of them also made it all the way down into Dunland. It's interesting, but yeah, they're Hobbit migrations are something I don't have off the top of my head. I'd have to look that up. Maybe in the P5. The footnote here from Christopher adding that in a letter written in 1959, my father said between 2463, that's when Deagle found the One Ring. According to the tale of years and the beginning of Gandalf's special inquiries concerning the ring, nearly 500 years later, the Stoors appear indeed to have died out altogether, except, of course, for Smeagol, or to have fled from the shadow of Dol Guldur. So that version would not be compatible with the idea that the Nazgul find Stuart still in the veil and kill them or drive them off. So. So that fits with A, but not with B, the letter that he wrote. And that letter was written in 1959, so it would have been after the Hunt for the Ring. So you kind of get the feeling like, at least in his mind, he landed on that area being abandoned, so we wouldn't see that happen. So we also get a brief acknowledgment from Christopher. Look, the exact dates are slightly off from one another in manuscripts A and B. Both differ at different points from the Tale of Years. He has not bothered to identify those differences or reconcile them. They don't need to be, because these are drafts.

[Matt]

Next, he points us to manuscript D again for more information on Gollum after his escape from Thranduil's halls and from the Orcs sent to kill him. But first, he acknowledges this was in a rough state. So he did a little editorial work to clean it up.

[Alan Sisto]

And most of this we'll save for next week. But we will start with the fact that after he escaped, he was being chased by both Thranduil's elves and the Orcs of Dol Guldur. He likely crossed the Anduin by swimming. Remember, in Lord of the Rings, Aragorn does describe him as a clever waterman. So that's no surprise.

[Matt]

That throws the Orcs off, but not the elves, we see.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, and I think that's interesting. I mean, I suppose it's just that the Orcs aren't going to swim any more than Asgul will swim, right? Yeah, but the elves are not bothered by this at all. Like, oh, yeah, he went across the river. Let's go follow him.

[Matt]

Let's just get on over there. And he doesn't want to go anywhere near Lorien. And we're told the only reason he does so later in fellowship was the lure of the ring. So instead, he hides in Moria, according to the footnote from Terror of the Nazgul.

[Alan Sisto]

Now I understand why he doesn't want to go anywhere near Lorian. It's. It's an Elvish forest. But I also wonder, is there something about the presence of Galadriel's ring sets him off? I mean, certainly when he has the One Ring, he would sense it, I'm sure. But he never left the Misty Mountains when he had it, so I don't know, that's just interesting.

[Matt]

Interesting question. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

The presence of not just Galadriel, but the ring itself.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Interesting.

[Matt]

It's interesting too, that if that's the case, I mean, obviously he's lured by the ring later.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. And that overcomes whatever.

[Matt]

Which makes me. Yeah. Which makes me think. It's not like her ring repelling him. It might be like dissuading him, I guess.

[Alan Sisto]

Or like her ring protecting. Well, not quite like Girdle of Melian sort of level, but. Yeah, but that sort of concept, because we know that it does sort of create this protective bubble of sorts, you know, in Lorien. So once he hides in Mori, of course, that is when the trail goes dark for everyone, not just the orcs, but now the elves. Until next week, of course.

[Matt]

That's right.

[Alan Sisto]

And it seems clear that pursued by both Bob and Nob Barlaman crossed it. Well, no, Barloman's not swimming anywhere. Let's be honest. Matt, what does Bartleman have in his bag for us today? All right.

[Matt]

Barliman has a message from Angie. Angie says, I really want to get my friends into Tolkien. What advice would you give? Should I make them watch the movies? What's the best way to hook people into this world we love?

[Alan Sisto]

Make them watch. I love that. Tie them down.

[Matt]

Yes. Right. Tape their eyes open. Angie's.

[Alan Sisto]

He's little toothpicks, like in the cartoons. Yeah.

[Matt]

We're making Angie a very intense Tolkien evangelist here.

[Alan Sisto]

Like this story.

[Matt]

You will watch this and you will like it.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. I think. I think she should have her friends listen to every one of the 410 episodes of the Prancing Pony.

[Matt]

Oh, there you go.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, I know that's an investment. That's probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 800 plus hours, but, you know, if you tie them down, they're not going to go anywhere. No, clearly. I'm kidding. If you'd asked this question to me 20 years ago, that is to say, after the films, I might have still said start with the books. But I think given the fact that age wise, most of the younger people moving into the fandom are going to be coming from adaptations, I think you start with the Lord of the Rings. The films. The Jackson films.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

The 2001 Fellowship. 2002. Not the Bakshi Lord of the Rings from 78. No, no, you don't start with the 77 Hobbit. I think you start with the Lord of the Rings.

[Matt]

Yeah, No, I think so, too. I think for most people I will Say, I think you do need to kind of tailor it to what type of person.

[Alan Sisto]

That's true. I mean you might have somebody who is just an avid reader and loves to read that person. Genuinely give them the books first. I want to get everybody into the books.

[Matt]

Right, yeah. But if they're an avid reader and they probably have either chosen not to or it's on their list and they haven't done it, if you're an avid

[Alan Sisto]

reader, why have you not read?

[Matt]

Right, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Greatest work of 20th century literature.

[Matt]

Right. Get on it.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that's a good point.

[Matt]

Yeah. I think the films like it's such a, you know, it's such a great. Just they're great films, period.

[Alan Sisto]

They really are. That's the thing. That's why I said the Lord of the Rings films don't start with the Hobbit films. Right.

[Matt]

Yeah. You know, honestly, if, if you're looking for the Hobbit, I think the animated Hobbit is the one to go.

[Alan Sisto]

I do think so. Or, or one of the fan edits where they train the three Hobbit film films down to about two and a half, three hours.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And keep it more book focused.

[Matt]

Yeah, that's a good point.

[Alan Sisto]

Those are a little harder to find because they're technically not legal.

[Matt]

Yeah. The animated one, there's just a charm to the animated one, I think with like the songs and everything. It's like a nice tight 90 minutes or whatever.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, it's less than that. It's 77 minutes of story.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. When you take out the heck. Yeah. It was shown in a 90 minute time slot, I think.

[Matt]

Okay.

[Alan Sisto]

But yeah, the whole film start to Finish is like 77 minutes and some of that is credits. So it's like an hour 12 of story. Yeah, it's a little short, but it's good and it's charming.

[Matt]

Like you said, it cuts some things out. Like I think the Arkenstone isn't even a thing in that one if I can remember it correctly. Yeah. So yeah, there's some stuff left out but it's kind of fun especially if you're like gearing maybe younger, like young kids maybe since it's animated. But it's also kind of dated animation.

[Alan Sisto]

It is definitely dated animation.

[Matt]

I will say. Like I. I've heard of a decent number of people getting interested in Lord of the Rings through. And we, we referenced this earlier in this episode, the Magic, the Gathering, Lord of the Rings. And like gaming is, is actually an interesting way. Like if you have big time gamers yeah, Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I know several people who've come to Lord of the Rings through games, usually lotro, Lord of the Rings online.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

People who were massively, you know, people who play MMOs, you know, world of Warcraft or back in the day everquests, you know, would get into Lord of the Rings online and then find themselves really intrigued by this universe.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

So whether it's lotro or the Gathering or Return to Moria, if you like those sorts of, you know, like co op survival games, I can see those being a way. So it just really depends on the person. Are they somebody who loves cinema and who loves. Or is it somebody who loves video games or is it somebody who loves books? You got to tailor it that way. I do think starting with Lord of the Rings is for most people the better idea rather than the Hobbit. Yeah, I think it gives a better range of Tolkien's incredible ability. I think the Hobbit is a narrower scope.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, until you dig deep, like the history of the Hobbit and stuff like that.

[Matt]

Right. But I, I think it, it's written with a much different mindset. Lord of the Rings is more representative of the larger legendary.

[Alan Sisto]

Correct.

[Matt]

It's correct, you know, than the Hobbit is.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I agree. And yeah, don't start them with the Silmarillion. No, I know that's, that's chronologically the first thing. Start with Creation. So the first thing you should read is Ina Lindele. No.

[Matt]

Right. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, don't get me wrong, I think Ina Lindele is one of the most beautiful things Tolkien's ever written. But I don't think it's the starting point for anybody. Just a little bit too much for a new reader. But yeah, I think for most people these days, starting with the Jackson films is the place I begin.

[Matt]

I will say one of the fun trends that I've seen is how many younger people I've seen post their reactions on social media to watching Lord of the Rings for the first time.

[Alan Sisto]

For the first time. That's mind blowing.

[Matt]

Yeah, I know. And it makes me feel old. Like, you know, because they're like, oh, I finally got around to watching these old movies that ever. Like tons of people really like. And me as a. Well, I guess I was, you know, nine years old or whatever when I finally got around to watching Star wars or, you know, five years old, something like that. When my dad showed up, showed me Star Wars.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh. Because it was, it was old by then because I saw it on my ninth Birthday, right?

[Matt]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So people my. My kids age are a little older, like, you know, teens and, like, teens

[Alan Sisto]

and early twenties now.

[Matt]

Yeah. That weren't born yet when these movies came out and that are finally getting around to. To watching them because they're an age where they can appreciate them.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

You know, it's always so gratifying to see them watch it and they're like, oh, my gosh, this is amazing. Like, they didn't believe the hype.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

And then they watch it, and then it's like, I get the hype.

[Alan Sisto]

Like, how can these films that are 25 years old be this good? They're like, oh, they are. Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt]

And they hold up so well.

[Alan Sisto]

I would, though, say to my friends, we'll start by watching this. We'll do a Lord of the Rings marathon on Saturday. Show up at 10 in the morning. We'll watch all three movies. Extended editions. Yes. But with the caveat that you eventually, you need to promise to read the books within the next, like, six months. Oh, like, you gotta start. At least start.

[Matt]

That's a big commitment, though. Don't scare them away. You don't want to scare them away. They might be skittish.

[Alan Sisto]

They might be.

[Matt]

I'm also of the mindset it's okay to start people with the theatrical, especially with Return of the King because there's so much.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, yeah, with Return of the King, because there's so much.

[Matt]

So much extra time.

[Alan Sisto]

Fellowship. You have to do the extended. With fellowship because the gifts. The gifts are super important, I guess.

[Matt]

Yeah. Yeah, that's true. But it's also like an additional present when you show someone the theatrical and they're like, oh, my gosh, I love this. And then it's like, how would you like to see the version with an extra 30 minutes added?

[Alan Sisto]

That's right.

[Matt]

And it's all stuff. And it's. Almost all of it is from the books.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Well, and that's. I think that's why I'm so much of a fan of the extendeds, because the extra moments do come from the books. That's fair. If I'm going to have somebody watch them a second time, I'd rather have them take that time and sink it into reading the books.

[Matt]

That's fair, I think. I think the proper response in a nutshell, is into, how do you get your friends into Lord of the Rings? The best way is, however, is successful in whatever way you can. You should get them into it.

[Alan Sisto]

Continue to demonstrate your passion for the fandom Your love for. For the material. That's always contagious.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

When you're with a friend and you're spending time with somebody and they're really into something that you know nothing about, the more they're into it, the more they're excited and tell you about it, the more interested you are in learning more about it yourself.

[Matt]

Well, and I know I've told this story before. I can't remember if I've told it to your audience, but the way I was introduced was through the films. And it was my college roommate who was my best friend in high school. And we. We moved in and we bought some DVDs at Walmart, and he holds up fellowship ring. He's like, we should get this one. And I'm like, no, that looks kind of stupid. And he says. He says, no, dude, trust me, this movie is amazing.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

And I was like, okay, fine. Which is just so ironic in retrospect. Knowing my career path, I was gonna say, you know, I finally. I, like, broke down, and I was like, fine, you are so excited about this that I will give it a chance. And by the end of that movie.

[Alan Sisto]

Shut you up.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And by the end of that movie, I was hooked.

[Alan Sisto]

Hooked forever. Yeah.

[Matt]

And so, like, just showing your passion and, like, your genuine love of it and coming to it like that. Not like, I want to force you to watch this because everyone should watch it. Like, no, I love this so much. Please just give it a chance. Yeah, I think that goes a long way.

[Alan Sisto]

I think it goes a long way. A lot more than making somebody.

[Matt]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Like, don't make it the losing price of a bet. Okay. You don't want to make somebody dread this.

[Matt]

You want a negative association with it.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Well, thank you, folks, for joining us for another episode of the Prancing Pony podcast. Please come back again next week when Solomon finds himself in very, very deep trouble.

[Matt]

And he doesn't he always bring it on himself. He does deep trouble.

[Alan Sisto]

He really does. Yeah. This is no different.

[Matt]

Just be a good guy.

[Alan Sisto]

Gosh, it would have been so much better.

[Matt]

It would have been so much better for you. Well, folks, Alan and I want to thank the members of team PPP editor Jordan Rannells Barlam and Becca Davis, social media manager Casey Hilsey, Event and Patreon community coordinator Katie McKenna, graphic artist Megan Collins, video editor Yonatan Lacens and website guru Phil Dean.

[Alan Sisto]

And please take a minute to check out the prancingponypodcast.com. that's where you'll find show notes, outtakes, Prancing Pony ponderings, and our fully revamped PPP Merch store where you can get all sorts of really cool merch that features the incredible chapter art Megan's been doing for us now for more than three seasons.

[Matt]

We're all about the books here at the Prancing Pony Podcast, so be sure to visit our library page. We try to make sure that any book we've mentioned on the show is linked there for you to purchase. We do get a small amount of compensation when you make your purchase, so thank you for that.

[Alan Sisto]

Indeed, we also want to thank our patrons at the Cirdance contribution tier. I'll start with demay in Alaska, Chad in Texas, Joseph in Michigan, Kathy from North Carolina, Brian in the uk, Jerry from Washington, Washington, Irwin from the Netherlands, Ben in Minnesota, Anthony in Texas, Zaksu in Illinois, Joshua in Massachusetts, Lucy in Texas, Erica in Texas, James in Massachusetts, Ann in Kentucky, and Sean in New Jersey.

[Matt]

There's also Mason in California, Maureen from Massachusetts, Olivia in London, Robert in Arizona, Nick in Wisconsin, Lewis in South Carolina, Thomas in Germany, Chris Craig in California, Kevin in Massachusetts, Joe in Maryland, D. Scott in California, Jeffrey from Michigan, Paul in Colorado, David from Connecticut, and Teresa from Texas. Thank you all so very much for your support indeed.

[Alan Sisto]

Thank you.

[Matt]

Make sure you don't miss any episodes of the Prancing Pony Podcast. Subscribe now through Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or your favorite podcast app, and more.

[Alan Sisto]

One last thing. As always, don't forget to send your thoughts, comments and, well, most of all, your buckets of water to chase off the Nazgul to [e-mail] Barloman does have

[Matt]

a lot of mail to sort through though, so we'll try to get to you just as soon as we're able.

[Alan Sisto]

As always, though, this has been far too short a time to spend among such excellent and admirable listeners.

[Matt]

But until next time, this is the end. We are going to going we are leaving now. Goodbye.