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- [00:00]
A
You know, with Mother's Day, Father's Day, graduations, weddings and more coming up, it's time to be thinking about gifts. And I keep finding myself coming back to Lola Blankets. These ultra soft, four way stretchy blankets make the absolutely perfect gift. And if you have one or have ever given one, you'll know why. Lola Blankets strike that perfect balance of a luxurious gift, but also really personal. It's thoughtful, it's elevated, and it's honestly something people get really excited to receive. So whatever the occasion, check out Lola Blankets for the people in your life. Available in a range of sizes, colors from the sublime to the spectacular and even limited edition designer drops. For a limited time, our listeners can get 40% off select Lola Blankets products with Code Pony at checkout. Just head to lolablankets.com and use code pony. After you purchase, they'll ask where you heard about them. Please support our show and let them know we sent you. Wrap yourself in luxury with Lola Blankets. I sold my car in Carvana last night.
- [01:05]
B
Well, that's cool.
- [01:06]
A
No, you don't understand. It went perfectly. Real offer down to the penny. They're picking it up tomorrow. Nothing went wrong.
- [01:12]
B
So what's the problem?
- [01:14]
A
That is the problem. Nothing in my life goes to smoothly. I'm waiting for the catch. Maybe there's no catch. That's exactly what a catch would want me to think.
- [01:21]
B
Wow. You need to relax.
- [01:22]
A
I need to knock on wood. Do we have wood? Is this table wood?
- [01:25]
B
I think it's laminate.
- [01:26]
A
Okay.
- [01:26]
B
Yeah, that's good. That's close enough. Car selling without a catch. Sell your car today on Carvana. Pickup fees may apply.
- [01:44]
A
Good evening, little masters, and welcome to episode 411 of the Prancing Pony podcast where Matt has been trying to find Shire himself as quickly as he could.
- [01:54]
B
Too bad I don't know how to Just open a door would be nice.
- [01:59]
A
Yeah.
- [02:00]
B
Folks, pull up a bench in the common room and join us. I'm Matt, the nerd of the rings. And it's a piece of singular good fortune for me that the man of the west, Alan Sisto, arrived when he did.
- [02:13]
A
So you have become weak and desperate is what you're saying.
- [02:16]
B
I. I've become tired of waiting on you. That's more the accurate thing.
- [02:22]
A
Wow. All right, well played. I knew you had to find a way to.
- [02:25]
B
It's the time difference thing. I'm not bashing. It's just time difference.
- [02:29]
A
That valid point.
- [02:30]
B
I'm not making fun of you yet.
- [02:31]
A
I wonder if Moria is in a different time zone than Shire. Maybe that's part of the problem. We'll get to that.
- [02:37]
B
You know what I bet it is?
- [02:38]
A
It's got to be Time Zones weren't a thing until. See, you know what? Numenor messed it all up. Because if there would have had have been time zones until after Numenor, right?
- [02:49]
B
And you know what? I bet Middle Earth doesn't have flipping daylight savings time. I bet they're smart enough to not mess with that. Pick one half the year. You get up earlier, people. It's not rocket science.
- [03:01]
A
It's not that hard. Come on, folks, join us as we digress, obviously, and as Saruman digs himself a deeper hole as we near the end of our four part look at the hunt for the Ring from Unfinished Tales.
- [03:14]
B
Folks, no matter whether you came to Middle Earth through the books, the films, the TV show, or something else, each of you is welcome here in our common room. The Prancing Pony Podcast continues in our 10th season of Reading and talking our way through Middle Earth with conversations, digressions, and even speculations.
- [03:33]
A
Not to mention a few puns and bad jokes here and there. Not to mention also Matt making old person jokes.
- [03:39]
B
Yep, that happens.
- [03:41]
A
That's right. Is to dive deep into the lore to discuss the story and our favorite characters, our favorite themes, Tolkien's inspirations, and a whole lot more.
- [03:49]
B
And while we take our work seriously, the same can't be said about ourselves. We're just a couple friends chatting at the pub. And we're glad you've joined us.
- [03:58]
A
I'm sure you'll be glad you joined as well. But before we get to today's chapter discussion, it's time for. Well, I'm not sure, actually. I don't know if I want to call this a new segment just yet. It's more like an extended sidebar in the form of an intro. You see, later in this episode, we're going to learn that one of the many reasons Saruman is interested in the Shire is because he's become a bit of a pipe smoker and he needed, well, supplies.
- [04:24]
B
And pipe weed features pretty heavily in next week's episode too.
- [04:28]
A
Yes, it does.
- [04:29]
B
So since Jackson did such a great job of implying that pipe weed has a little extra something, we thought we'd take a minute to talk through the subject. So pardon me when I go get my Doritos, man. I got the munchies, dude.
- [04:46]
A
Not already, Matt. Right, let's start not with the Lord of the Rings, but with the Hobbit, actually, to see if pipe weed Makes an appearance there and oh well, what do you know? Pipe weed is never mentioned once in the Hobbit, but tobacco is on five different occasions. First, in the very famous good morning scene with Gandalf, Bilbo is asked, do you wish me a good morning? Or mean that it is a good morning whether I want it or not or that you feel good this morning or that it is a morning to be good on all of them at once? Said Bilbo. And a very fine morning for a pipe of tobacco. Out of doors into the bargain. If you have a pipe about, you sit down and have a fill of mine.
- [05:28]
B
Later, after they leave the Shire, we learn that Gandalf had looked out for Bilbo, having brought a lot of pocket handkerchiefs and Bilbo's pipe and tobacco. It's also mentioned twice in riddles in the dark. After some time he felt for his pipe. It was not broken, and that was something. Then he felt for his pouch and there was some tobacco in it, and that was something more. Followed by the recognition that the smell of tobacco might have brought out some terrifying creatures in the dark.
- [06:02]
A
Probably trying to bum a cigarette.
- [06:05]
B
Probably, yeah. Most likely.
- [06:07]
A
The nameless things hang out behind the 7 11, right?
- [06:11]
B
They show up in those like anti Smoking, like just say no ads, you know, they'd be very effective in those.
- [06:17]
A
And finally it shows up again in the very last line in the book. You're a very fine person, Mr. Baggins, and I am very fond of you. But you're only quite a little fellow in a wide world after all. Thank goodness, said Bilbo, laughing, and handed him the tobacco jar.
- [06:35]
B
Even in the Lord of the Rings, we get the word tobacco twice. Let's start with the prologue where Tolkien writes, there is another astonishing thing about Hobbits of old that must be mentioned, an astonishing habit. They imbibed or inhaled through pipes of clay or wood the smoke of the burning leaves of a herb which they called pipe weed or leaf, a variety probably of Nicotiana. A great deal of mystery surrounds the origin of this peculiar custom or art, as the Hobbits preferred to call it, all that could be discovered about it in antiquity was put together by Meriadoc Brandybuck, later Master of Buckland. And since he and the tobacco of the South Farthing play a part in the history that follows, his remarks in the introduction to his Herblore of the Shire may be quoted. Not that we'll quote it right now, just making the point that it's the tobacco of the South Farthing that plays A part in the history, as we'll see in this very episode.
- [07:40]
A
That's right. The word tobacco also shows up in the chapter Flotsam and Jetsam, where Gimli has just asked Mary to tell the tale in the right order. You shall have it if there is time, said Mary. But first, if you have finished eating, you shall fill your pipes and light up. And then for a little while, we can pretend that we are all back safe at Bree again, or in Rivendell. He produced a small leather bag full of tobacco. We have heaps of it, he said, and you can all pack as much as you wish when we go. We did some salvage work this morning, Pippin and I. There are lots of things floating about. It was Pippin who found two small barrels washed up out of some cellar or storehouse, I suppose. When we opened them, we found they were filled with this. As fine a pipe weed as you could wish for, and quite unspoiled. Ergo, pipe weed is tobacco, plain and simple.
- [08:26]
B
There you go. Still, aside from the clear reference in the prologue, the word tobacco only appears in the narrative of the Lord of the Rings that one time while it was in the much shorter Hobbit five times. Why is that?
- [08:42]
A
Well, I think the answer is linguistics, as usual. I mean, if you don't know what the answer is with Tolkien, that's probably it. See, tobacco is a word that to English through Spanish from the late 1500s, in part from Caribbean languages. Tolkien usually tried to minimize these types of words when he wrote the Lord of the Rings. I mean, he tried to minimize Latin words that, you know, would have been old enough. He definitely tried to avoid these New World words, except, it seems, for potato, which also is from the Spanish, in this case, patata from a Carib language of Haiti, batata, both referring to the sweet potato, but it was eventually extended to apply to the common white potato. The word is still quite Spanish, and it had been for about 400 years before Tolkien had Sam talking about his favorite food. On another note, folks, tomato doesn't appear in either the Hobbit of the Lord of the Rings. That's just a movie thing.
- [09:35]
B
At least we got potatoes to boil, mash and stick in stews.
- [09:39]
A
That's right.
- [09:40]
B
So we know why he stopped mostly calling tobacco tobacco and calling it pipe weed. But. But why feature it so heavily at all? Because he smoked.
- [09:51]
A
That's right.
- [09:52]
B
He's a big fan. In Carpenter's biography, we read about Father Francis visiting Tolkien, his brother and his mom. He kept a dog at Rednall named Lord Roberts and he used to sit on the ivy covered veranda of the Oratory house smoking a large cherrywood pipe. The more remarkable Ronald recalled, since he never smoked, except there. Possibly my own later addiction to the pipe derives from this. My own later addiction, Tolkien's words. Carpenter even says that when he arrived to interview Tolkien for the biography, that the room smells of books and tobacco smoke.
- [10:34]
A
There's something about pipe tobacco that smells a little tolerable. Not that I would take up the art, but.
- [10:39]
B
But if they had it as a scented candle, you might go for that, is what you're saying.
- [10:44]
A
I don't know about that much, but it doesn't drive me out of the room the way the others do.
- [10:47]
B
Right, okay, fair enough.
- [10:49]
A
And finally, if it's not bad form to do so, I'll quote my book, the book that Sean and I wrote together, why we Love Middle Earth. And he really loved smoking. In a 1966 interview with the Daily Telegraph magazine, he was recorded as saying, every morning I wake up thinking, good, another 24 hours pipe smoking. He was even smoking during the interview. Not so strange for the 60s, perhaps, which Tolkien apologized for in a 1967 letter to the authors of the article, as it apparently made understanding his responses rather difficult. So it stands to reason that he would make one of his own favorite hobbies, a favorite hobby of Middle Earth as well.
- [11:26]
B
I love the, the description there. Good, another 24 hours of pipe smoking. So it's between that at least he was self aware enough to say his own later addiction. Yeah, nailed it.
- [11:40]
A
He really did.
- [11:42]
B
Well, I for one am glad that we cleared that up, Alan, because I do get that question a fair amount.
- [11:48]
A
I bet you do.
- [11:49]
B
Or rather I get comments a fair amount of times making very, let's say, hippie culture related pipe weed suggestions. And I, I always have to put a damper on that and say, no, folks, it is just tobacco.
- [12:04]
A
It is. Exactly. I know. I, I kind of hate being boring, but we got to be boring. That's. That's what it was.
- [12:10]
B
That's all it is. It's just. That's what it is. All right. Well, it is also time to get to the reading, Alan.
- [12:16]
A
That it is all right. What then happened to Gollum cannot of course be known for certain. He was peculiarly fitted to survive in such straits, though at cost of great misery. But he was in great peril of discovery by the servants of Sauron that lurked in Moria, especially since such bare necessity of food as he must have, he could only get by thieving dangerously, no doubt he had intended to use Moria simply as a secret passage westward his purpose being to find Shire himself as quickly as he could. But he became lost, and it was a very long time before he found his way about it. Thus seems probable that he had not long made his way towards the West Gate when the nine walkers arrived. He knew nothing, of course, about the action of the doors. To him they would seem huge and immovable and though they had no lock or bar and opened outwards to a thrust he did not discover that in any case he was now far away from any source of food for the Orcs were mostly in the east end of Moria and was become weak and desperate so that even if he had known all about the doors he still could not have thrust them open. It was thus a piece of singular good fortune for Gollum that the nine walkers arrived when they did. And now we get Christopher's commentary. The story of the coming of the Black Riders to Isengard in September 3018 and their subsequent capture of Grima Wormtongue, as told in A and B, is much altered in version C, which takes up the narrative only at their return southward over the limb light in A and B. It was two days after Gandalf's escape from Orthanc that the Nazgul came to Isengard. Saruman told them that Gandalf was gone and denied all knowledge of the Shire but was betrayed by Grima, whom they captured on the following day as he hastened to Isengard with news of Gandalf's coming to Edoras in sea. On the other hand, the Black Riders arrived at the gate of Isengard while Gandalf was still a prisoner in the tower. In this account, Saruman, in fear and despair and perceiving the full horror of service to Mordor resolved suddenly to yield to Gandalf and to beg for his pardon and help. Temporizing at the gate, he admitted that he had Gandalf within and said that he would go and try to discover what he knew. If that were unavailing, he would deliver Gandalf up to them. Then Saruman hastened to the summit of Orthanc and found Gandalf gone away south against the setting moon He. He saw a great eagle flying towards Etteras. I don't want to be sorry but in that moment, I mean, we'll get to that. But my goodness, that's. That's got to feel like your whole world is coming down around you.
- [15:05]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [15:06]
A
Bad news, buddy. Bad news.
- [15:09]
B
Well, when we left off last week, Gollum had escaped into Moria and fell off the radar of the elves. And after having already lost the orcs on crossing the Anduin.
- [15:20]
A
That's right. And here Tolkien starts by saying, look, we cannot know with any surety what actually happened to him in the halls of Moria. Now, this isn't just because Gollum hasn't done a proper debrief. It's simply because he is always an unreliable source.
- [15:35]
B
Recall earlier when Tolkien had decided to be less definite about the date of Gollum's capture by Sauron, since the only unreliable source for this date would be Gollum.
- [15:47]
A
That's right.
- [15:48]
B
But. But Tolkien still goes ahead and tells us some things based on speculation and on Gollum's nature.
- [15:55]
A
Right. I mean, having lived under the roots of the Misty Mountains for, oh, half a millennium, he is, as the text says, peculiarly fitted to survive. Certainly better than I could say for either of us. I. What? Three days, tops.
- [16:08]
B
the absolute most, I would probably trip in the dark and fall down the long chute that Pippin drops around.
- [16:17]
A
You're still falling. You're still falling.
- [16:20]
B
Still. It's not fun there in Moria. Great misery.
- [16:25]
A
The text says he could live, but he's not really thriving. No, but he's.
- [16:30]
B
Yeah, he's not thriving. He's not having a great time of it.
- [16:32]
A
No.
- [16:32]
B
He was also in serious danger from Sauron's servants that were in Moria.
- [16:37]
A
That's right.
- [16:38]
B
Although Tolkien tells us in the footnote that these were, in fact, not very numerous, it would seem, but sufficient to keep any intruders out if no better armed or prepared than Balin's company, and not in great numbers.
- [16:53]
A
Okay, but how does that square with what we experience when the company gets in there? Yeah, I mean, it feels like the numbers are a little greater. I mean, I know the big threat comes from the Balrog, and perhaps if the Balrog wasn't there, they might not have had the courage to attack.
- [17:16]
B
Right. Yeah, that's true. Right.
- [17:19]
A
Too small number. Not because they're too short or anything, but. Yeah, I mean, goblins are.
- [17:25]
B
It does seem like they get kind of overwhelmed, though. Yeah.
- [17:29]
A
That's the feeling I get, though. I'm always trying to separate, like, movie experience versus book experience. I don't think they get to the point in the books the way the movie shows them, like, crawling.
- [17:39]
B
Oh, yeah. Where they're coming down. Which is a great shot.
- [17:42]
A
Amazing shot. Don't get me wrong. I love that. Totally. Totally conveys the peril that they're in. But that made it look like there were thousands of Orcs just infesting the place.
- [17:52]
B
Yeah. But you do get the sense, like, that there's a formidable number, I would say.
- [17:59]
A
Yeah. Like, certainly a. You know, a few hundred at a minimum.
- [18:03]
B
Yeah, you would think. Yeah.
- [18:05]
A
Anyway, there are a few things here, and we'll get to some others later, where you're like, well, how would he square that with this? Because there are some sort of inconsistencies, which you'd expect from a story that first of all has four drafts that we're looking at and still hasn't yet been reconciled completely. And that's kind of the fun about looking at these stories. I remember looking at one that's even more early in development, when James and I covered the story of Tal Elmar, the end of people's Middle Earth. That's a wild story. And you're like, what? Like, who are these fell people? Where are the Hills of Agar? What? Those questions stick with you because he just never reconciled things in terms like, when does this story even happen?
- [18:46]
B
Yeah, it's. It's one of those interesting things I. I always try to keep in mind whenever I'm looking outside.
- [18:53]
A
Yeah.
- [18:53]
B
At. At any book outside the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings. You have to keep in mind Tolkien himself didn't publish them.
- [19:00]
A
That's true. I mean, there's a reason I said the big three, because I included the Silmarillion. But you're right. You even have to. You take that into account a little less with the Silmarillion, but it is still present. But then with everything else.
- [19:11]
B
But then you. You sit there and you think, okay, who's Orodreth's dad?
- [19:16]
A
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly.
- [19:18]
B
Or who's Gil Galad's dad? Like, Right. There's some parentage things that Christopher himself would go back and be like, you know, I should have done this in the Silmarillion, actually.
- [19:29]
A
Exactly. I love that. I mean, he did work so hard, you know, to put out the Silmarillion, and it took four years from his father's death before Christopher could get it published. And it sold like hotcakes. Of course, this wasn't like.
- [19:42]
B
Yeah.
- [19:42]
A
You know, this. This was not like he was begging for publishers to. To take it. The publishers were begging him to put it together.
- [19:49]
B
Yeah.
- [19:49]
A
But, you know, even though he took his time, he still made what he would later call mistakes. I don't. I don't want to ascribe that strong a word. To it. He made choices and other choices could have been made, and it's not necessarily one's better than the other, but he had a really unenviable task, except also very enviable. Can you imagine your sole job now for the rest of your life is to sort through Professor Tolkien's manuscripts. It's daunting.
- [20:14]
B
It's d. Yeah. Very daunting. Yeah.
- [20:18]
A
Yeah.
- [20:18]
B
I, I think it's remarkable. I, I still think that there is nothing that compares to it in the history of publishing.
- [20:28]
A
Correct.
- [20:29]
B
And there never will be at this.
- [20:31]
A
I can't imagine at this point. Because, I mean, sure, an author could let us get behind the scenes and see their process the way Christopher showed us what his father did.
- [20:39]
B
Yeah.
- [20:40]
A
But that would be done, like, almost in the moment. Like, I'm thinking of sort of like the documentary behind the Scenes, so stuff that Peter Jackson had shot while they were producing the film. Right.
- [20:49]
B
Yeah.
- [20:50]
A
Everything's digital these days. Anybody who's writing isn't writing manuscripts and then type scripts and going back and putting emendations in pen on the, in the margins. They're doing it all on a Google Doc, you know.
- [21:00]
B
Right. And I, I. So the one example, the one example that I can think of is Brandon Sanderson has done that for a couple of his books. There's like a. A Dragon Steel prime and A Way of Kings Prime. And these were. Because these were some of his earliest books and Dragonsteel in particular, he would borrow and ended up using some of those things in other books. And so he's actually published those. And I, I can't remember which one it is, but that's cool. He wrote it as, as, like his, like his college paper or something, like a college dissertation or thesis, whatever. You know, one of those academic things.
- [21:38]
A
But folks, ladies and gentlemen, my, my co host, the scholar.
- [21:42]
B
I am quite the teller, folks. You're welcome.
- [21:46]
A
I do love the range of co hosts I get because Sara has her, her doctorate. James is going to school to get his doctorate. You know who doctors are.
- [21:55]
B
I do. I will have you know I do have a master's degree. I don't know if you knew that, but I've written a thesis, so I'm impressed. I know, I know. I know a thing or two, quite literally one or two or two about
- [22:14]
A
writing a thes hadn't said it, I would have. That's true. Oh, man. All right, well, however many orcs were there and maybe their numbers swelled in the, the week or two between his arrival and the time the company Got over there. What made them dangerous, of course, to him was that, look, Gollum's not going to find food growing in the fields. He's not going to be able to stop at the local grocery store. The only way he's going to get food is to go to Orc encampments and steal their food.
- [22:45]
B
Right.
- [22:45]
A
That's high risk every sing. And, you know, as the text indicates, he loses out on that once he gets away from the eastern side. So the entire second half of his journey is just starving.
- [22:57]
B
And Tolkien assuming Gollum's purpose in Moria was essentially a shortcut and a way to keep himself hidden from prying eyes as he heads towards the Shire.
- [23:08]
A
I thought that was interesting because it's telling us, look, this wasn't just hiding from the Elves and Orcs, although it does that. It was to keep going. Right. He wanted to get to the Shire.
- [23:16]
B
Yeah.
- [23:17]
A
Find where the Shire was. Because he still desperately wants his ring.
- [23:20]
B
Yeah, yeah. And one thing to keep in mind, folks, for those of you who aren't into the geography as much like, it's notable that, yes, he's under the Misty Mountains, but this isn't the area of the Misty Mountains where he lived. No, no, it's not like he could go back to.
- [23:37]
A
These are not his familiar, his streets.
- [23:40]
B
Like, he's. He's in unfamiliar territory.
- [23:44]
A
So. Yeah, that's a good catch. Yeah.
- [23:48]
B
And it's not a shock that he got lost in the maze of the halls and chambers. Again, unfamiliar streets here.
- [23:55]
A
And he's not walking around with a staff with a light on it, you know.
- [23:58]
B
Right. He has no flashlight. He's just bumping along with those with. He does have those giant lamp light
- [24:04]
A
eyes, big bulbous eyes. Yeah, that's true.
- [24:06]
B
Yeah, he's got those going for him. But Tolkien here tells us that it likely took him until the company arrived to make his way to the West Gate.
- [24:15]
A
That seems like a long time. So I thought I would take a look at the timeline. So the attack on Thranduil's halls and Gollum's resulting escape that took place on June 20, 3018, that's something that we actually were able to confirm in the Tale of Years and also last week in the episode the Tale of Years says that in August of that year, so two months later, all trace of Gollum is lost. It is thought that at about this time, being hunted by both the Elves and Sauron's servants, he took refuge in Moria. But when he had at last discovered the way to the West Gate, he could not get out. Okay, August, August is when he goes into Moria. The company doesn't arrive to the west gate of Moria until nightfall on January 13, 3019. That's some five months after Gollum entered Moria. No wonder he's weak and desperate. That's a long time.
- [25:06]
B
Can you imagine how bad he's gonna have to squint when he comes out in the sunlight? Oh my God.
- [25:12]
A
No wonder he hates the yellow face. That's. Yeah, there's no sunglasses in existence that are going to prevent him from like burning his retinas.
- [25:21]
B
To be fair, he did just recently, you know, fairly recently. Came out from under the mountains for the first time in even longer periods. So this is like child's play compared to that. But still five months in Moria, it'll
- [25:36]
A
take his pupils a whole day to shrink down. That's, that's, that's wild. Five months and of course he still doesn't get out until they get out. So you know another.
- [25:47]
B
Right, yeah, of, of course he, you know he gets to the west gate but he can't open it.
- [25:52]
A
No.
- [25:53]
B
So you know, he doesn't know how they work. They're just massive and look immovable. Yeah, we've got the, we've got the text here telling us that they weren't locked or barred for those trying to exit and that the doors opened outwards to a thrust.
- [26:09]
A
Now the footnote here is really interesting actually. Tolkien explains, according to the Dwarves, this, that is opening the door needed usually the thrust of two. Only a very strong Dwarf could open them single handed. And Gollum was not a very strong Dwarf.
- [26:25]
B
Yeah, I think that's a safe shed.
- [26:28]
A
Right?
- [26:28]
B
Yeah, yeah. He, he did not have the strength of the Dwarves, but no, the footnote continues telling us what it would be like in normal times. Before the desertion of Moria, door wards were kept inside the West Gate. And one at least was always there in this way a single person. And so any intruder or person trying to escape could not get out without permission.
- [26:54]
A
Unless they were a very strong Dwarf.
- [26:57]
B
I guess so.
- [26:58]
A
I mean that's just. You just said this. I do think this is interesting. This provides some pretty good security when you combine it. Well, I mean first off, in normal days the door was just open.
- [27:08]
B
Right.
- [27:08]
A
I mean.
- [27:09]
B
Right.
- [27:09]
A
That was something that Gandalf tells us. When they get to the Holland Gate
- [27:14]
B
it's like those nice, you know, like just nice down home areas back in the day where you didn't nobody locked their doors.
- [27:24]
A
I was good old days I leave my keys in my truck. It sits out there all day. Somebody needs to buy it. They'll bring it back.
- [27:30]
B
Someone might need to borrow it. Neighbors need a cup of sugar. They just walk right in, walk right into the kitchen.
- [27:36]
A
Yeah, we don't live in that world, Matt.
- [27:39]
B
Not so much.
- [27:40]
A
So anyway, the point, though, is that they've done a pretty good job of thinking about security. And it's all about, like, traffic flow, really, when you stop to think about it. Because on the west side, they've got this. This, you know, you can't get out without somebody's assistance. So we're just going to stand here and not let you leave. But on the other end, you can only get in across a bridge that is only one person wide. Like, that's how they do this. They don't have to build complicated defense mechanisms. They just make sure that, you know,
- [28:14]
B
you can only commit. Convenient.
- [28:16]
A
Yeah, exactly. Make it really hard. I like this. So the whole point, though, is that after five months and making it all the way to that side, it is particularly good luck for him. The text says good luck that it was, you know, marvelous luck or whatever. Is it really luck? I don't know that it's luck. I mean, there's not a lot of luck in Tolkien. It's more often the intervention of fate. But anyway, it's good luck for Gollum when Frodo and his companions enter Moria.
- [28:40]
B
But they didn't hear him following until well after their arrival just before Gandalf found himself having to choose between three doors. Right before that, we read. The company behind him spoke seldom and then only in hurried whispers. There was no sound but the sound of their own feet. The dull stump of Gimli's dwarf boots the heavy tread of Boromir, the light step of Legolas the soft, scarce heard patter of Hobbit feet and in the rear, the slow, firm footfalls of Aragorn with his long stride. When they halted for a moment, they heard nothing at all unless it were occasionally a faint trickle and a drip of unseen water. Yet Frodo began to hear, or to imagine that he heard something else like the faint fall of soft, bare feet. It was never loud enough or near enough for him to feel certain that he heard it. But once it had started, it never stopped while the company was moving. But it was not an echo. For when they halted, it pattered on for a little all by itself and then grew still.
- [29:56]
A
I mean, it's obvious the text doesn't tell us this is Gollum. But the text doesn't need to. It doesn't have to spell it out. Here it is. This is Gollum following them and it took all the way until they got to that three way split which I think was three or four rests in, I don't know, about three or four nights. I think it was just three or four rests. So maybe a couple of days in. But yeah, he got away with, with trailing them without them noticing for quite some time. So we shift locations at the end of that passage from Moria to Isengard as we get a third and very different version of the story of the Nazgul's arrival to Saruman's home. Christopher explaining that the story is much altered in version C and this later version picks up after they're coming back across the limb light. He then helpfully compares the two versions. First he looks at the one that we saw in the first week of this series, Matt.
- [30:48]
B
That version, or actually those versions A and B have the Nazgul arriving two days after Gandalf escaped. So September 20, as the tale of years tells us, Gandalf escaped from Orthanc in the early hours of September 18th. In those versions, Saruman told them Gandalf had left and then said he didn't know anything about Asshaier.
- [31:11]
A
Christopher does explain in a footnote, just the very tiniest of differences between A and B. They're otherwise similar. In A, Saruman denied knowledge of where the ring was hid. While in B he said he didn't know anything about the land that they sought. Christopher says this is probably no more than a difference of wording.
- [31:28]
B
Then Grima Wormtongue betrayed Saruman when he was captured by the Ringwraiths the next day while on his way back from Etterus.
- [31:36]
A
And that's where the big difference is because now we look at C, which actually has the writer showing up while Gandalf is still there as a prisoner at Top Oranc. And that changes things for the White Wizard. It's a nice day for a white wizard. Actually it's a pretty crappy day for a White Wizard. He is in serious trouble, right? He decides to ask for Gandalf's help and maybe remain on the good side. I mean, clearly he doesn't want to because he's like, well if that doesn't work, I'll just turn him over about. But, but I mean, so he's not really going to stay on the good side, but he wants to at least pretend that he's there. You're like, oh yeah, okay, Gandalf, I give your right. Help me and. And I'll be good forever. Basically, he's more afraid of Sauron than he is of Gandalf. What is the way I read this? Yeah, yeah.
- [32:22]
B
So then Saruman then stalls for time telling them he's got Gandalf in custody. Just give me time to go find out what he knows. I feel like I've seen this in cartoons before. It's like, oh yeah, so it's. This is like a toy story where, where Woody is holding Buzz's arm up like, hey guys, it's me, Gandalf. I'm gonna talk to Saruman. Don't worry, we'll be right back.
- [32:50]
A
That is great. And I love that parallel. What a. What a brilliant connection. Oh man.
- [32:56]
B
All right, well, anyway, if that didn't work, plan B was just to hand Gandalf over to the Nazgul. Yeah, I'm sure that would go over well.
- [33:08]
A
So, Gandalf, you need to come with me. What for? There are nine guys in black robes that would like to talk to you. I'd rather not, if that's okay. So when he goes back to Orthanc to carry out his plan. Oh, sorryman, sorry. Ken Elf is gone. And to make matters worse, to like add insult to injury, he can actually see Guy here flying him away south to Rohan.
- [33:39]
B
Right?
- [33:41]
A
That's sort of like, I don't know, it's like fate's middle finger, right?
- [33:45]
B
It's, it's kind of like like a comedy routine at that point.
- [33:50]
A
At this point, you're just like, oh, Saruman, you are so toast. Oh man. You've got weight loss goals, but actually reaching them is proving a bit tough. That's where Weight Loss by HIMSS comes in. It's designed to support you in your efforts to lose weight and keep it off. And HIMS now provides an affordable range of FDA approved GLP1 medications, including the Wegovy pill and the Wegovy pen. With WeGovy at HIMSS lose up to 20% or more of your body weight when you combine it with diet and exercise. WeGovy helps regulate your appetite so you eat less and reach your goal. Everything's done online. You'll be connected with a licensed provider who will determine if treatment is right for you. Then your prescribed medication is delivered to your door. You get 24. 7 access to messaging with your care team, lifestyle and nutrition support through the app, recipes, meal plans and more. So are you ready to reach your goals? Visit himss.com pony to get a personalized, affordable plan that gets you that's h I m s.com pony hims.com pony Weight loss by HIMSS is not available in all 50 states. WeGovy is the registered trademark of Novo Nordisk. As to get started and learn more, including important safety information, WeGovy clinical study information and restrictions, visit hims.com lately I've been trying to be more intentional about choosing what I wear each day. I find myself gravitating towards easy and comfortable, especially in spring. Now you're not going to be surprised to learn that Quince continues to be my go to the fabrics feel upscale, the fits are just right and everything works without me having to put a ton of things thought into it. Quince has all the spring staples for your wardrobe. 100% European linen shorts and shirts from only 34 bucks soft 100% Pima cotton tees. I might have bought a few more of these than I really need. I like them a lot and their jeans are perfect. I'm up to three pairs now with different fits and colors. All fit and look great and one of the other reasons I really like Quint's is that they work directly with ethical manufacturers, cutting out the middleman. You get quality product made fairly but without the markup. Refresh your everyday with luxury you'll actually use. Head to Quince.com pony for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N C-E.com pony for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com pony As a dad to two kids, I know how important it is to make sure that they get the nutrients their bodies and brains need. I might not be able to change their picky eating or their craving for less than ideal foods, but I can make sure that they get the nutrients they need for healthy growth and development with First Day Daily Multivitamins. First Day makes clean science backed multivitamins for kids, teens and adults. 0 added sugars, no dyes or artificial ingredients. Instead you're looking at nine essential vitamins for brain and mood support and a superfood blend of 12 organic fruits and vegetables. Just two gummies a day and your kid's nutrition, health, mood and sleep get the support they need. There's also a 45 day money back guarantee so you can try it with full confidence. Clinically absorbable, family safe, actually effective for a limited time only. Our listeners are getting an insane deal. Use code pony to get up to 57% off@firstday.com that's up to 57% off and a free gift with code pony@firstday.com after you purchase, they'll ask where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them we sent you. Soon we'll be getting back to Saruman digging his own grave. But before we do, I want to take a minute to thank the amazing community that has grown up around this show over the past 10 years. I say grown up, which is kind of funny because I haven't grown up at all. Clearly I'm still just a juvenile child after all. There's a lot more talk going on at the Prancing Pony Podcast than just us.
- [38:13]
B
The PPP really does have a warm and welcoming listener community. If you've got questions or just want to talk about how much you love Middle Earth, be sure to check out our Common Room on Facebook and across all social media. On Facebook, just look for the Prancing Pony podcast. And yeah, there's a page. But you're going to want to join the group for that great fan community
- [38:34]
A
that's right now on every social media platform other than Facebook. We're prancingponypod and you can find our subreddit @r prancingponypod. And be sure to check out my Daily show, today's Tolkien Times on YouTube and all your favorite podcast apps. Get your daily Middle Earth fix with everything from Middle Earth Map Mondays to Friendship Fridays. Be sure to watch or listen@YouTube.com rancingponypod well Matt, how's old Saruman doing? You want to tell us?
- [39:04]
B
Let's check in on the White wizard here. Now, Saruman's case was worse. If Gandalf had escaped, there was still a real chance that Sauron would not get the Ring and would be defeated. In his heart, Saruman recognized the great power and the strange good fortune that went with Gandalf. But now he was left alone to deal with the nine. His mood changed, and his pride reasserted itself in anger at Gandalf's escape from impenetrable Isengard, and in a fury of jealousy, he went back to the gate and he lied, saying that he had made Gandalf confess. He did not admit that this was his own knowledge, not being aware of how much Sauron knew of his mind and heart. I will report this myself to the Lord of Barad Duration, he said loftily, to whom I speak from afar on great matters that concern us. But all that you need to know on the mission that he has given you is where the Shire lies that says Mithrandir is northwest from here some 600 miles on the borders of the seaward Elvish country to his pleasure. Saruman saw that even the Witch King did not relish that. You must cross Isen by the fords and then rounding the mountain's end make for Tharbad upon Greyflood. Go with speed and I will report to your master that you have done so. This skillful speech convinced even the Witch King for the moment that Saruman was a faithful ally high in Sauron's confidence. At once the riders left the gate and rode in haste to the fords of Isen. Behind them, Saruman sent out wolves and Orcs in vain pursuit of Gandalf. But in this he had other purposes to impress his power upon the Nazgul perhaps also to prevent them from lingering near. And in his anger he wished to do some injury to Rohan and to increase the fear of him which his agent Wormtongue was building up in Theoden's heart. Wormtongue had been in Isengard not long since and was then on his way back to Edoras. Among the pursuers were some bearing messages to him. When he was rid of the riders Saruman retired to Orthanc and sat in earnest and dreadful thought. It seems that he resolved still to temporize and still to hope to get the Ring for himself.
- [42:07]
A
He just doesn't get it, does he, Matt?
- [42:09]
B
He does not.
- [42:13]
A
All right, well, if you thought it was bad having Nazgul arrive to your door suspicious you in the first place, try this.
- [42:21]
B
Gandalf has literally flown the coop. Saruman thinks this decreases the likelihood that Sauron will get the Ring. And that's. What do you think about that?
- [42:31]
A
Yeah, I mean, I suppose it's a mathematical thing. He's. Yeah, because Saruman is all about the, you know, figuring out the odds. Never tell me the odds, kid. Simon, on the other hand, just wants to know what the odds are. And it does, in a sense, but it also increases the likelihood that Gandalf will get it. So I don't know that it. Yeah, I don't think it increases the likelihood that Saruman will get it but I guess when the worst case scenario is Sauron getting decreases that likelihood or maybe delays that likelihood.
- [43:03]
B
Do you think if. If Gandalf claims the Ring and becomes Ring Lord and, you know, Tolkien tells us that would be really bad.
- [43:13]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [43:13]
B
Do you think that's better for Saruman, though? I don't know if it is. I don't think it is.
- [43:20]
A
Oh, yeah, I think that's bad. That's really, really, really bad.
- [43:23]
B
I think he's just like totally up a creek pretty much. That's the story of Saruman in the
- [43:31]
A
Lord of the Rings, you know, he gets himself so tied up in this plan. We'll talk more about it later. There's more to be said for sure. But it does make me wonder, like, with Gandalf captive, right. How goes the rest of the story? He doesn't get to Rohan in time to get Shadow Facts in time to get back. But he doesn't get back in time to get to. Frodo's already left by the time he gets back.
- [43:53]
B
Right.
- [43:54]
A
It's just crazy. I don't know.
- [43:56]
B
But. But he does manage to break away some of the Nazgul, you know, going after him instead of the ring bearer. So there's. So there's four going after Gandalf while there's five at WeatherTop. And like.
- [44:10]
A
Which is a lifesaver, I'm sure.
- [44:12]
B
Yeah. If there. If there's nine, like, does Aragorn hold up as well?
- [44:17]
A
You know, I'm out of here, man. This is beyond my pay grade. Five I'm good with.
- [44:22]
B
Not, like, yeah, I can do five. Nine. Come on.
- [44:26]
A
Yeah, I don't know.
- [44:27]
B
It doesn't increase their chances of success for.
- [44:30]
A
No, it does not.
- [44:31]
B
You know, the Hobbits and every chance of success.
- [44:34]
A
Small likelihood of death. All right, so the whole reason that this, that Saruman is thinking about this is because even though he was evil, he still saw the great power and the strange quote unquote good fortune that went with Gandalf. I don't know about you, but I don't think that was good fortune. I think that's like, you know, he stuck to the job description and Iluvatar is like, good boy. Right?
- [44:58]
B
Yeah.
- [45:00]
A
The fact that he just thinks, oh, Gandalf is just lucky. Well, maybe stop being a jerk, you know?
- [45:05]
B
Right.
- [45:06]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [45:07]
B
If you have two dogs and one behaves, it's like. It's like the misbehaving ones. Like, why does that one get a treat?
- [45:13]
A
Like, come on, I. I got nothing because I got a cat and he doesn't understand a thing. He's dumb as a bag of rocks, so. Well, he's an orange cat. He gets his turn with the brain cell is, I think, once every other week. So. Yeah, anyway, enough about that.
- [45:29]
B
Anyway, back to the text here. With Gandalf gone, things have definitely progressed from really bad to really, really bad.
- [45:37]
A
Yeah. That's true.
- [45:38]
B
So he has to go and face the nine and tell them what has happened. Or dig himself a deeper hole. And let's see what he does.
- [45:47]
A
Let's see what he does. All right, place your bets, folks. All right, so first his pride shows up again. This is my shocked face. Along with his jealousy, which really has been his weak spot all along, hasn't it?
- [46:01]
B
Yeah, I'm telling you some time. Yeah. I mean, he found out Gandalf got a shiny ring and he's like, well, I'm going to make my own. That's right.
- [46:10]
A
I'm a ring maker. I'm a ringmaker. I swear I am.
- [46:15]
B
So then he gets ready to tell the story. Oh, yeah, I got Gandalf to talk. I'm very persuasive. Which he actually is fairly well to his credit.
- [46:23]
A
Yeah, he is. That's true.
- [46:26]
B
And he'll give them some details pretending that they came from Gandalf and not himself.
- [46:31]
A
That's right. Pass the buck. Basically, you know the text here saying he simply didn't know how much Sauron already knew about his thoughts. The footnote gives us a little bit more there. It says earlier in this version, it is said that Sauron had at this time, by means of the Palantiri, at last began to daunt Sodomon and could in any case often read his thought even when he withheld information. So there's something. Sauron knows. Something's up.
- [47:00]
B
Yeah. Also it says, thus Sauron was aware that Saruman had some guess at the place where the ring was. And Saruman actually revealed that he had got as his prisoner Gandalf, who knew the most.
- [47:15]
A
Okay, I don't know that that's a good idea to reveal that piece of information if you're Solderman.
- [47:21]
B
Yeah, probably not. Especially if you're planning on backstabbing well, everyone.
- [47:28]
A
Yeah, the Dark Lord in particular. So then we get his like. I don't know. This is kind of funny. It's sort of like a lofty presentation to the Nazga. Like he's like. He's giving the PowerPoint presentation on a zoom call with his chat turned off. Like, I don't even want. I'm not here to listen to you peasants. I'm here to tell you what's going on. These aren't your underlings though, Saruman. These are the most powerful beings aside from Sauron himself. I don't think one of them could take you. But all nine of them probably could.
- [47:55]
B
Probably. Yeah. He says, I'll tell Sauron myself. But here's what you lowly underlings need to know. The Shire. At least according to Gandalf, that is.
- [48:08]
A
That guy is. I don't know where it is.
- [48:10]
B
Yeah, I clearly don't know. But Gandalf tells me it's 600 miles to the northwest, not far from Linden.
- [48:18]
A
He went that away?
- [48:20]
B
Yeah, he went that away. Even though the Witch King has a great poker face. Saruman could tell that. Hey.
- [48:27]
A
Great poker face. He's hidden behind a terrifying mask. Anyway, sorry, didn't mean to cut you
- [48:34]
B
off very much, but remember what we talked about last week? About their fear of water?
- [48:41]
A
Yeah. And Saruman can pick that out again. I don't know how. Because he can't read his facial expression. Because they, you know, don't have faces. But it must have been something in the body language. I don't know, maybe he shuddered. Maybe he just. There's something. I don't know what happened, but Saruman leans harder into that. You're gonna have to cross the Eisen. And then you're gonna have to cross the Gray Flood. But, you know, if you go fast, I'll give a good report to your boss. I'll give you a five star review on the app. You know. No, I'll tell your boss, who knows I'm a traitor and is going to kill me.
- [49:13]
B
Yeah. Here's a question. Does Saruman, as one of the Maiar, since he has a presence in the unseen, can he see them in their unseen form? So maybe he.
- [49:27]
A
That's a very good question. I mean, we know that Glorfindel saw them that way.
- [49:32]
B
Yeah. So maybe he does actually see.
- [49:35]
A
He might see their face. That's a good point. I don't know.
- [49:38]
B
But either way, he actually is really persuasive.
- [49:43]
A
That is true.
- [49:43]
B
Kudos to Saruman. Like, it's his thing.
- [49:46]
A
That's what he does. That is what he's known for. Yeah.
- [49:49]
B
His skill is in his voice. And he's even convinced the Witch King himself, if only briefly, that he's still an ally. So they head off for the Fords.
- [50:00]
A
That's right. Absolutely. So Saruman then puts on a show. He sends out his own orcs and wolves to chase Gandalf. I mean, come on. He knows full well that he has zero chance of catching him. He's not only halfway to Etteros, he's, you know, in the air. So you're not gonna. But this isn't about the chase. This is purely performative. This is about showing the Nazgul. I've got Power, too. Look at me. And also to sort of encourage him, just get. Get off my lawn, you know?
- [50:28]
B
And let's face it, he's also angry right now. So like any bully, he takes it out on the nearest victim, which happens to be Rohan here. He wouldn't dare to attack the Nazgul but he can let off some steam by punishing a few farmers in the West Farthing.
- [50:47]
A
Yeah, that's. That's not cool. But that's who Saruman is now in this version. Again, this is version C. Wormtongue is not on his way back to Isengard from Edoras. Instead, it's the other way around. He had just left Saruman and was heading back to Rohan. So now that Saruman's got a little peace and quiet, right? He's got rid of his Orcs and wolves, he's got rid of Wormtongue. The Nazgul are heading off. He heads up to the tower to think, I think you're in trouble. And there's not much you can do about it now.
- [51:17]
B
Yeah, he's going to try to buy himself some more time so that he can get the Ring.
- [51:22]
A
Yeah.
- [51:22]
B
And I mean, at this point, what other option does he have except to get the Ring?
- [51:27]
A
That's the only scenario in which. Well, even then there's. Yeah.
- [51:34]
B
It's the only thing remotely resembling a happy ending for Saruman at this point.
- [51:38]
A
If there's going to be a victory for Saruman, it has to include him getting the Ring.
- [51:44]
B
Yeah.
- [51:44]
A
Otherwise he is toast. Yeah. And of course, he. He actually has a hope that he can still do that. Which once again, just goes to show how totally deluded he is. And then in the part we skipped, he concludes, hey, you know what? Actually, it's sort of like, oh, wow, I was smarter than I thought, you know, because I sent the Nazgul up to the Shire and that all those Rangers are waiting there. And maybe we can whittle the number of the nine down. Maybe we can get him down to like five or six. Obviously we saw what happened to the Rangers but I kind of like Simon's optimism here.
- [52:16]
B
Yeah, yeah. He also figures incorrectly, by the way,
- [52:23]
A
a lot of it is incorrect, that
- [52:25]
B
the Ring was already on its way to Rivendell. Now, don't get me wrong, it should have been on its way to Rivendell.
- [52:34]
A
If only Barliman had gotten that letter to him.
- [52:36]
B
Yeah, it would have been rather helpful. Yes. But part of the reason that Saruman believes this is because he knew about the dream that Boromir Had. And about Boromir's mission. The big question is how does he know about that?
- [52:54]
A
That's a very good question, and I don't think there's a specific answer. My speculation comes from a passage in the Writers of Rohan. The three hunters encounter Eomer. This is after Aragorn has revealed he is Aragorn. And Eomer asks, tell me, Lord, he said, what brings you here? And what was the meaning of the dark words? Long has Boromir, son of Denethor, been gone seeking an answer. And the horse that we lent him came back riderless. What doom do you bring out of the North? So, you know, here he's asking about the dark words. Here he's asking about, you know, Boromir looking for an answer to these dark words. So this strongly suggests that Boromir's mission and the riddle from the Dream Lords were known in Meduseld in which case Wormtongue would have told him all about it.
- [53:41]
B
Yeah, that seems to be very strong evidence for me.
- [53:46]
A
I mean, I can't think of any other way that he would have gotten this information. Boromir stops by for a cup of tea? I mean, I don't think so, though it's possible if. If. Because, you know, Denethor liked Saruman better than he liked Gandalf. That's because he didn't like Gandalf. So maybe he would have said, hey, if you're going through the Gap of Rohan, you know, Saruman might be up there.
- [54:08]
B
Yeah, yeah, it's possible.
- [54:10]
A
It's not impossible, but.
- [54:11]
B
Yeah, right. I think. I think the fact that the Rohirrim know and that Boromir, you know, we know that he borrowed a horse. Like, that's pretty. That's pretty compelling, especially. Yeah. With Wormtongue sitting right there. I mean.
- [54:24]
A
Yeah.
- [54:24]
B
Well, anyway, that's when Saruman brings his spies together and sends them all into Eriador including the Krebine that we see. Not to mention some questionable men like you. Maybe. I guess I'm kind of questionable. But you keep inviting me back, so I'm not.
- [54:43]
A
That is true. Well, you only have one more episode after this.
- [54:47]
B
But then you want me back for Children of Hurin.
- [54:49]
A
I do. I do. Well, you did, you know, you begged. And finally I just was like, okay, fine. Not at all. That's gonna be awesome.
- [55:01]
B
All right, well, let's get back to some more reading. Alan, take it away.
- [55:06]
A
In this version, the element of Grima's capture by the Ringwraiths and his portrayal of Saruman is Thus absent. For of course, there is insufficient time by this account for Gandalf to reach Edoras and attempt to warn King Theoden and for Grima in his turn to set out for Isengard to warn Sodoman before the Black Riders were already gone from Rohan. The revelation of Saruman's lying to them here comes about through the man whom they captured and found to be bearing maps of the Shire. And more is told of this man and of Saruman's dealings with the Shire. When the Black Riders were far across Enedwaith and drawing near at last to Tharbad, they had what was for them a great stroke of good fortune but disastrous for Saruman, and deadly perilous for Frodo. Saruman had long taken an interest in the Shire because Gandalf did, and he was suspicious of him. And because, again in secret imitation of Gandalf, he had taken to the Halfling's leaf and needed supplies. But in pride, having once scoffed at Gandalf's use of the weed kept this as secret as he could. Latterly, other motives were added. He liked to extend his power, especially into Gandalf's province and he found that the money he could provide for the purchase of Leif was giving him power and was corrupting some of the Hobbits, especially the Bracegirdles, who owned many plantations, and so also the Sackville Bagginses. But also he had begun to feel certain that in some way the Shire was connected with the Ring in Gandalf's mind why this strong guard upon it. He therefore began to collect detailed information about the Shire, its chief persons and families, its roads and other matters. For this he used Hobbits within the Shire in the pay of the Bracegirdles and the Sackville Bagginses but his agents were men of Dunlendish origin. When Gandalf had refused to treat with him, Saruman had redoubled his efforts. The Rangers were suspicious, but did not actually refuse entry to the servants of Saruman, for Gandalf was not at liberty to warn them. And when he had gone off to Isengard, Sodoman was still recognized as an ally.
- [57:17]
B
So Christopher begins our next section by reminding us that since Grima was on his way to to Etterus, not from it, his capture and betrayal aren't in Version C. There's just not enough time in the timeline to allow for Gandalf to reach Etterus, warn the king, and still have time for Wormtongue to get back to his boss.
- [57:39]
A
That's Right. Now, the footnote here is helpful because it tells us something about what version Tolkien seems to have settled on. And it's this version. Version C. Why do we know that? Well, look at the tale of years that says for September 18, 3018, that Gandalf escapes from Orthanc. In the early hours, the Black Riders cross the fords of Isen. Now, Christopher's commentary points out that, brief though this entry may be, and saying nothing about the nine stopping by Isengard first, nevertheless, it seems to be based on the story told in Version C. My question for you then, Matt, is does that mean we take C to be the definitive version in all circumstances or just for this one single elements? Like, how helpful is that? Not very.
- [58:24]
B
I don't know. Like, see, and this is where the, the whole idea of Tolkien canon.
- [58:32]
A
Yeah, it goes right.
- [58:32]
B
Is like a minefield. You know, it's, it's very tricky. Like, I think you just.
- [58:38]
A
Almost impossible, I would add. Almost.
- [58:40]
B
Yeah, I mean, like, you, you obviously. I did a whole video on. On kind of like my outlook on it, but.
- [58:47]
A
Oh, yeah, what's canon?
- [58:48]
B
Yeah, you've got obviously the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings. They're published during Tolkien's lifetime. Those are a lock for canon.
- [58:55]
A
First edition Hobbit or second edition? Hobbit.
- [58:58]
B
Second edition. Because the first edition is clearly Bilbo's. Miss. You know.
- [59:04]
A
Yeah. Lying to the Dwarves, Gaslighting his buddies.
- [59:08]
B
Of course. Yes.
- [59:10]
A
First edition or second edition of Lord of the Rings? Because there were some minor changes to that.
- [59:13]
B
That's true. There were some minor changes. I do like the one, because in the first edition, I think it's. Aragorn gets really snarky with.
- [59:21]
A
Yes, I knew you were going to go there. Yeah, I trade him for a perfectly serviceable Orc. Right. You're talking about the Gimli line where he's like, I literally trade Gimli for an Orc. And you're like, wow, that's harsh. Yeah, not wrong. But yeah, I do love that line.
- [59:37]
B
But yeah, when it comes to stuff like this, you know, I, you know, you can really go through like degrees of canonicity or something, you know, to, to make, make up a phrase here. But yeah, you know, I just, I just kind of segment them, you know, because I do love the, the interaction between the Nazgul and Wormtongue that we saw, like the little bit of dialogue there. So, yeah, I don't know. It's, it's, you know, you can't hardly argue against the tale of years, for one thing, the published.
- [60:12]
A
Because that's in the Lord of the Rings, which is.
- [60:14]
B
Yeah. Now if he were to go and you know, flesh this out even more, who's to say he wouldn't do a new edition of Lord of the Rings?
- [60:22]
A
Well, that's the thing. Because he changed so much so frequently. I mean, you look at just in the history of Galadriel and Celeborn, which is all written after the Lord of the Rings. It shows that had he had the time and opportunity, he might have written the Lord of the Rings differently and come out with a third edition.
- [60:40]
B
It's kind of crazy. It's crazy to think about crazy. Like it's. Yeah, it's one of those things I always wonder like if Tolkien could have just been a full time writer, like what?
- [60:50]
A
No.
- [60:50]
B
What would we have ended up with?
- [60:52]
A
Oh, the glory. Absolutely. Yeah.
- [60:56]
B
It would have been interesting for sure.
- [60:58]
A
But it would have been all right.
- [61:00]
B
So instead of Wormtongue being the one to tell the Witch King that his boss is a no good lying, double crossing snake, they'll find that out from the man they'll capture later on. And we'll have more on him later.
- [61:15]
A
Oh, we certainly will. So we catch up with the Nazgul most of the way across Enedwai. They're getting close to the crossing of the Grey Flood at Tharbad. Now, before we're told what happened, we are told that it is good fortune for the Nazgul, but a disaster for Saruman and it creates a massive danger for Frodo. So, whoa. Okay, what's going on here?
- [61:34]
B
Really, though it doesn't seem like anything was particularly disastrous for Saruman. It's not like Sauron sent winged Nazgul to get him or anything.
- [61:45]
A
No, I mean, nothing happens to him. Like basically Sauron's like, I'll get you later. You're small stuff. I got to get rid of Gondor first. But when I'm done with that, I'll come get you. Yeah.
- [61:55]
B
But it's worth noting, it would have been disastrous for his plans.
- [61:59]
A
Oh, oh, it absolutely would have been this idea that he's going to get the Ring. Good luck with that. In fact, we're still not told, by the way, what this good fortune is quite yet. Tolkien continues to give us all the necessary background. So we step back from the moment and we look at the big picture, particularly Soderman's interest in Hobbits and the Shire.
- [62:16]
B
He's only interested in them because of Gandalf. There's that jealousy. But peeking up again. He suspects that something is going on in the Shire. And it turns out that imitating Gandalf, Saruman has started smoking pipe weed. And it's not like there's a local smoke shop down by the Fords or anything. So he has to figure out how to get a regular supply.
- [62:41]
A
Yeah, and now I picture him like, like going into a smoke shop and in Rohan someplace. Sorry sir, in the Westfold, you don't have your id, you know. So he mocked Gandalf smoking before because he mocks everybody. And it's something we're going to get to at length next week. It's a really great conversation. But because of that he really wanted to keep this habit of his secret. And I got to tell you, we've been kind of talking about all these moments where he's jealous of Gandalf. He's imitating Gandalf, he's afraid of Gandalf. You know, he smokes to be like him, but he doesn't want Gandalf to know that he smokes. I hope he's charging Gandalf rent for the space he's taking up in his head. Right?
- [63:26]
B
He has. Gosh, what, what is it like little brother syndrome or something?
- [63:30]
A
Oh my goodness. Yeah.
- [63:32]
B
Yeah.
- [63:32]
A
It is crazy how bad this is. I mean it's, it's, it's pretty funny really. Like you said before, it's almost like a comedy in many ways.
- [63:42]
B
Yeah.
- [63:43]
A
So the tobacco isn't the only thing. I mean that is a big reason why he's interested. It certainly seems to be the initial reason he's interested in the Shire. But let's face it, he's just a power hungry guy. Any place that he can wield power, but especially if it means at Gandalf's expense. Like again the little brother syndrome. And then it turns out that, well, being a top customer paying cash apparently has benefits.
- [64:08]
B
Not only is his spending giving Saruman power, but it's sadly corrupting some of the hobbits. This is particularly sad given what we know about hobbits. But it's definitely happening. The text points to two families in particular, the Bracegirdles, who are big landowners. And I know this is going to come as a shock. The Sackville Bagginses?
- [64:35]
A
No, the stand up examples of moral living in the Shire.
- [64:39]
B
Yes.
- [64:41]
A
Okay, the footnote here reminds us by the way, that everybody's favorite umbrella wielding old hobbit lady was Lobelia Bracegirdle before she married Otho Sackville Baggins. So she's Involved on both sides of the family. Wow. Yeah. And of course their son Lotho might have been the worst of them all. As the footnote reminds us, he was called the Chief back at the time of the War of the Ring and was heavily involved in the Scouring of the Shire. Until he was right, Eaten. Matt. Corrupting Hobbits easier than corrupting men. Easier than corrupting, probably easier than corrupting dwarves. But then again, dwarves are greedy. Maybe they're easier to corrupt. What do you think?
- [65:21]
B
I think it depends on what kind of corruption you're talking about.
- [65:27]
A
Because financial corruption like this.
- [65:29]
B
Yeah, like, yeah. See that's the thing is, you know, we think of hobbits because of how well they avoid the corruption of the One Ring which tends to be a very grand delusions of grandeur kind of corruption. Whereas I think, I think this more street level corruption.
- [65:51]
A
Street level?
- [65:51]
B
Yeah, you know, like, yeah.
- [65:53]
A
And now I'm picturing like, like a vice squad in the, in the Shire. You know, the sheriffs. The sheriff's vice squad.
- [66:00]
B
The sheriffs. Yeah, Shire sheriffs.
- [66:03]
A
And now I'm just picturing cops. I'm picturing this show cops but with hobbit cops and hobbit victims pulling up
- [66:11]
B
on, on a pony.
- [66:13]
A
Bad boys. Bad boys. What'd you go to?
- [66:16]
B
Oh my gosh.
- [66:17]
A
Oh man, that's too much fun. All right.
- [66:19]
B
Yeah. I don't know. I think I, I, I guess, you know, seeing this and knowing what happens with, with Lotho and. Yeah, just these two families in particular, I think. Yeah. When it comes to like the more petty down to earth kind of corruption maybe they're just as capable of men as, you know, kind of what I'm thinking. Like there's bad, bad eggs in every bunch kind of thing.
- [66:44]
A
Well, that's certainly true. I mean there's, yeah. Let's be honest. If the One Ring had fallen to Lotho, he would have absolutely put it on. So yeah, so we've got the tobacco, we've got the power at Gandalf's expense and we've got corrupting hobbits. I mean, everyone needs a hobby. But then we've got one more thing, don't we, Matt?
- [67:03]
B
That's right. Saruman's got a hunch the Ring is connected to the Shire in some way. At least in Gandalf's mind. Otherwise, why use the Rangers to guard this place?
- [67:15]
A
Seriously.
- [67:15]
B
So he does what any good leader would do. He starts collecting intelligence.
- [67:22]
A
Now that is what a good leader would do. That doesn't mean Saruman's a good leader, by the way. Right.
- [67:27]
B
That's a good point.
- [67:27]
A
A broken clock is right twice a day. I've been waiting this whole episode to bring out this quote because it's one of my favorites. A friend of the show. Well, we did that lovely interview with him last season. Brett Devereaux. He's got a quote on his blog. Saruman is a dummy wummy whose plans failed because they were bad. He's absolutely right. And he has this wonderful flowchart. I'll have to link to that blog post where he talks about all the possible outcomes and how basically they all end up with Saruman dead. Other than he gets the ring and it works exactly like he thinks it does, which it probably doesn't. It's so good and absolutely hilarious. He just bashes Saruman up one side, down the other. The point is he just does not make good decisions. But he made a good one here. Gather intelligence. So he uses the hobbits as well as Dunlendish men as his agents, his go betweens to gather news of, well, everything.
- [68:26]
B
Yeah, and his efforts increase when Gandalf refuses to work with him.
- [68:31]
A
That's right. Fine.
- [68:34]
B
While the Rangers can tell something's up, they don't stop Saruman's servants. After all, to them, Saruman is still an ally.
- [68:43]
A
Yeah, I mean, remember, Gandalf only found out about his treason a little while ago, right? How long was he imprisoned in Orthanc? And now he's escaped to Roan, he's still on his way back to the Shire. I'm sure he will issue an update to the Rangers as to Saruman's status. But they don't have it yet, so how would they know?
- [69:01]
B
Yeah,
- [69:06]
A
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- [71:02]
A
And your support there is what enables me to work full time doing all of the shows, the ppp, Today's Tolkien Times, the Rings of Power Wrap up, and my streaming show the PPP Plays. When you join, you also get episode postscripts, ad free episodes, free merch and
- [71:16]
B
more, and you can join our questions after Nightfall episodes or even appear as a guest in the north wing. Go to patreon.com prancingponypod to show your support and join the Fellowship of the Podcast.
- [71:30]
A
And don't forget to rate and review on Apple Podcast and Spotify. And please recommend us to your friends. You can do that directly in Spotify now. Just share them the show with them. Matt Tell us about this Dunlending will do.
- [71:44]
B
Some while ago, one of Saruman's most trusted servants yet, a ruffianly fellow, an outlaw driven from Dunland, where many said that he had orc blood, had returned from the borders of the Shire, where he had been negotiating for the purchase of leaf and other supplies. Saruman was beginning to store Isengard against war. This man was now on his way back to continue the business and to arrange for the transport of many goods before autumn failed. He had orders also to get into the Shire if possible, and learn if there had been any departures of persons well known recently. He was well supplied with maps, lists of names and notes concerning the Shire. This Dunlending was overtaken by several of the Black Riders as they approached the Tharbad crossing. In an extremity of terror he was hailed to the Witch King and questioned. He saved his life by betraying Saruman. The Witch King thus learned that Saruman knew well all along where the Shire was, and knew much about it, which he could and should have told to Sauron's servants If he had been a true ally, the Witch King also obtained much information, including some about the only name that interested him, Baggins. It was for this reason that Hobbiton was singled out as one of the points for immediate visit and inquiry. The Witch King had now a clearer understanding of the matter. He had known something of the country long ago in his wars with the Dunedain, and especially of the Tirngorthad of Cardolin, now the Barrow Downs, whose evil wights had been sent there by himself. Seeing that his master suspected some move between the Shire and Rivendell, he saw also that Bree, the position of which he knew would be an important point, at least for information. He put therefore the shadow of fear on the Dunlending and sent him on to Bree as an agent. He was the squint eyed Southerner at the inn.
- [74:09]
A
And now we get more on that ruffianly fellow. And no, it's not Matt. Not this time. Not only is this guy also not Matt from Dunlin, even the folks in Dunland were no fans. He's an outlaw from their villages and they say he had orc blood. So is this a half Orc?
- [74:27]
B
That's kind of the way they make it sound. I mean, it could insult perhaps, like you might think, oh, this is an insult. But yeah, we get a decent amount on half orcs in Tolkien's writings.
- [74:41]
A
We do, which is creepy as can be, but yeah, that's bad stuff.
- [74:46]
B
Yeah, mature audiences only. Still, there's no accounting for taste. Saruman trusts his servant and had been using him to go back and forth from the Shire. Note that we're pretending we haven't already read the reveal at the end of the section here.
- [75:06]
A
That's true. Question for you, Matt. When Tolkien was drafting this, was he thinking, I want to create a backstory for the squint eyed Southerner, or was he writing about Solomon and going, hey, wouldn't it be cool if we already encountered this guy? I know, we'll use that squint eyed Southerner.
- [75:23]
B
That would be kind of cool. Yeah, Gosh, I, I don't know. I think he loves drawing these little connections. This is the kind of stuff where, yeah, I really fantasize about like a, a fleshed out silmarillion because I think, gosh, yeah, you know, I think we get a taste of it in the moments like when Tour sees Turin.
- [75:45]
A
Turin.
- [75:46]
B
Yeah, going. And like you have that brief intersection of moments and there's so many great like little connections that Tolkien makes between things and yeah, it's it's crazy that even within Lord of the Rings, just like fleshing out background of Lord of the Rings, that we get this great moment with someone who's just a shady character in a pub.
- [76:08]
A
Exactly. I love that. I do think. I think it's more intentional than happy accident, I would say. That's my guess. Yeah.
- [76:15]
B
Yeah. So we see that this fellow had been negotiating a big tobacco contract and purchasing other supplies as Isengard was preparing
- [76:24]
A
for war without ever asking Eisengard, that is, should we go to war? Is this a good decision?
- [76:34]
B
It's Saruman, so no, it's not a good decision.
- [76:37]
A
He was a dummy woman whose plans failed because they were bad. Don and I are going to talk more about this with Brett, I am sure. But he points out it's a pretty big strategic error for Saruman to be going to war with Rohan right now. Focus on your search for the ring. I mean, after all, even if you beat Rohan, you're still toast without the ring. Like, one thing at a time. Let's go fight on 12 fronts. Makes no sense, you know. Anyway, this man, as the text keeps calling him, or I think once they call him this Dunlending, was heading back to the Shire to get the transport details all locked down before the change of weather at the end of fall.
- [77:10]
B
Yeah, the note telling us here that the typical route for goods that Saruman used was down the road to the crossings at Tharbad, but then to Dunland rather than Isengard. This was to keep things secret. And then goods would be sent on more discreetly from Dunland. So that way there's no hobbit 18 wheelers pulling up to the docks at
- [77:33]
A
Isengard and now I'm picturing like a half scale truck.
- [77:40]
B
It'd be the smallest 18 wheeler you've ever seen.
- [77:45]
A
So not only was he heading back that way to work his deals, and I have a hard time imagining this awful, terrible, moody, grumpy, ugly, half orc dude is really good at contract negotiations, right? Like you and I have played enough tabletop role playing games to know what's the stat they're looking at.
- [78:05]
B
Super shady guy.
- [78:07]
A
Charisma is what you're looking for. But you know, charisma can go with like persuasion and charm or it can go with intimidation. So maybe that's how he negotiates.
- [78:16]
B
Maybe he's intimidation.
- [78:17]
A
Pretty nice hobbit hole you got here.
- [78:20]
B
Shame if something happened to it
- [78:25]
A
because of this mission. He had maps, he had. He had name lists, he had other written intelligence about the Shire. Unencrypted. Bad idea.
- [78:37]
B
Yeah. So some of the Nazgul, and we're not told how many, but recall in the first version I think, where the Witch King split them up in pairs.
- [78:46]
A
That's right. He went with one of the pairs, but there were four pairs and then. Yeah, right.
- [78:51]
B
Yes. So they overtake him as they near the old ruined bridge and he's brought before the Witch King and not surprisingly under the circumstances proves not to be so loyal to Saruman.
- [79:06]
A
I don't think that change would take very long at all. Can you, in the presence of the Witch King. Yes sir. How high, sir? No, it was Saruman, I tell you. It was Saruman, all right. He reveals everything because of course he would. And now the Witch King knows enough to know Saruman's a traitor. He knew where the Shire was. He knew a lot about it. And he would have shared that info had he really been a friend of Sauron. Which leads me to this question. It seems that Sauron has known that Saruman isn't to be trusted. We don't have specifics as to exactly how much he knew. Right. We knew that he was daunting him through the use of the palantir and that he knew he could read his mind when he was withholding information. So that tells me that he knows a lot. But it's only now that the Witch King is learning it. Did Sauron just not communicate the fact like hey, when you go and talk to Saruman to get intelligence you should know he might try to lie to you because he's been trying to lie to me. That's a pretty important piece of information.
- [80:02]
B
Yeah. Yeah. That's a fair point.
- [80:06]
A
This is one of those conflicts that I'm like would he would have had to figure this out?
- [80:10]
B
Yeah. Like could it be that Sauron didn't find out about Saruman or didn't didn't confirm it until after the Nazgul were sent out.
- [80:20]
A
That's true because he sent them out quite some months ago at this point. Yeah. Or.
- [80:25]
B
Or is it that Sauron is just playing things that close to the vest where you know, we. We saw. The Witch King obviously has some kind of readable reaction to the whole water.
- [80:39]
A
So that's true.
- [80:40]
B
So like is he. Like. I know you don't have a poker face so I'm not even gonna let you in on this secret about Saruman
- [80:46]
A
because if I do, you'll. You'll spill it. Yeah.
- [80:49]
B
Right. And I. I think. I think Sauron, you know, he. He still thinks like, well, Saruman could still do things that would benefit me in the long run.
- [80:59]
A
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, he does. Because he knows that Saruman isn't really a threat, right?
- [81:04]
B
Yeah.
- [81:05]
A
I mean, and that's the thing, I think he knows he's not a threat because even if Saruman were to get the Ring, it's not going to do him any good. One of the reasons that Sauron takes the bait when Aragorn goes to challenge him at the Black Gate, right as Frodo and Sam are making their way to Mount Doom, is specifically because he believes Aragorn has the Ring and is coming to challenge him. Because that's what the ring bearer would do, right? Yet he, still thinking that Aragorn has the ring, has his troops, make the moves. Like, he's not afraid of Aragorn. Yeah, I don't think he's afraid of Saruman either.
- [81:42]
B
I don't think he is.
- [81:44]
A
Saruman is like, I'm a big bad guy and I'm gonna. I'm gonna knock you down a knock, Dark Lord. And Sauron's like, who? Who's this little guy? What?
- [81:55]
B
It's like the Arrested Development Magicians with the sign you demand to be taken seriously.
- [82:03]
A
Such a great. That is a brilliant comparison. Oh, my goodness. Good stuff.
- [82:09]
B
So then we see here the Witch King learns about the only other word he's got on his list. Baggins.
- [82:16]
A
Oh, you guys. What?
- [82:17]
B
Coincidence. Baggins. We hate you forever. And that's why Hobbiton is the first now, the first on their list of places to check out.
- [82:29]
A
So the Witch King starts to put everything together and he begins to put together a plan. And frankly, it's a better plan than Saruman would have put together. He's like, all right, I remember this area. There's a familiar place from my time as the Witch King of Angmark, the Barrow Downs. You got to read the lovely Sindarin name, Tirun Gorthad. I have to tell you, actually, the Y in Sindarin is pronounced like the. The u in. In French, I think. Like, so it's like. But then he. Thankfully for people like you and me, who can't pronounce it that way says that the Men of Gondor pronounced it like the. Like they would pronounce the letter I.
- [83:06]
B
There we go. Men of Gondor coming through for us.
- [83:08]
A
Tyrn Gorthat.
- [83:09]
B
Yeah, and the text is telling us something we've talked about a few times, that the Barrow Wights were sent to Tiring Gorthad by the Witch King.
- [83:20]
A
Yeah. He is the one who brought them there. What kind of power is this? What kind of power does he actually have? We know he can't overcome the gift of men. Right. So when a man dies physically, he either has to willingly submit his spirit because. Right. They get called just like the elves do. And they could turn down that call if they were devoted to the Witch King.
- [83:47]
B
Right.
- [83:48]
A
But. Oh, my goodness, that's crazy to think of that.
- [83:51]
B
Yeah. I. I've kind of been of the mind that they are. Are spirits that are evil in nature.
- [83:58]
A
Yes.
- [83:59]
B
You know, to begin kind of like. Like the werewolves, you know, we were told that their evil spirits trapped in wolf bodies. That's kind of the way I. I picture barrel whites, you know, is.
- [84:12]
A
Yeah.
- [84:13]
B
A similar situation. Yeah.
- [84:16]
A
I also thought perhaps some sort of creepy necromancy sort of.
- [84:21]
B
Yeah.
- [84:22]
A
Like they're not really yet dead dead. They're like an undead thing.
- [84:26]
B
Yeah.
- [84:27]
A
Rather than spirits on their own. I don't know. It could go either way.
- [84:30]
B
Which would be in more in line with, you know, when. When we talk about Sauron being called the Necromancer. And when necromancy is referenced in Tolkien, it's not bringing back from the dead,
- [84:43]
A
it's sort of animating the dead is still not the right phrase because this isn't like animate skeletons in D D. This is. This is like reanimate corpse. No, this is preventing a natural death.
- [84:56]
B
Right.
- [84:56]
A
And extending life beyond what the physical body your body can take is capable of.
- [85:00]
B
Yeah.
- [85:01]
A
Right. So that's an option too, but it's creepy as heck. By the way, the footnote points us to the moment in Appendix A13 on the North Kingdom that gives this exact detail. It was at this time, during the Great plague that reached Gondor in 1636, that an end came of the Dunedain of Cardalan and evil spirits out of Angmar and Rudaur. There you go. Evil spirits entered into the deserted mounds and dwelt there.
- [85:28]
B
And as we'll see shortly, he uses that connection to great effect here. But he also knows that Bree will prove strategically important. It's at the crossroads and on the way between the Shire and Rivendell, where Sauron believes something is going to happen.
- [85:47]
A
I mean, if anything's going to happen, it's going to happen there, Right.
- [85:49]
B
Yeah.
- [85:50]
A
Which is why if Sauron was putting this together, he would leave Bree alone and go up to like for a hell or something. He'd just completely go the wrong direction. Anyway, the footnote here finally pointing out something that I had thought about a few times, but never quite like, I don't know. There's an answer to this and you're going to be uncomfortable. Wouldn't the Witch King of Angmar know about the Shire? He was in the area at the time, in the Third Age. I mean, his time in Angmar. The Hobbits were there, in the Shire.
- [86:21]
B
Yeah. I think a lot of people wonder this. Yeah.
- [86:25]
A
Yeah. Christopher acknowledges this in the footnote. He goes like, since the Black Captain knew so much, like, about the Barrow Downs, it is perhaps strange that he had so little idea of where the Shire, the land of the Halflings, lay just a few miles west of the Barrow Downs. He doesn't say that that was my insertion. Christopher continues. According to the Tale of Years, there were already Hobbits settled in Bree at the beginning of the 14th century of the Third Age, when the Witch King came north to Angmar.
- [86:54]
B
Furthermore, the Hobbits say themselves that they sent a detachment of archers to Fornost to help in the fight against the Witch King. And, you know, clearly the Witch King, it says right here, he knew about Bree and its position. But we're supposed to think that he didn't know where the Shire was?
- [87:16]
A
That does seem a little hard to believe. But the only thing I can think of is he just didn't know that was what it was called.
- [87:23]
B
The name. Yes. Yeah.
- [87:25]
A
He just didn't know it was Shire. But did he need to know that it was Shire? It was the land of the Halflings.
- [87:33]
B
Yeah.
- [87:34]
A
Right. And Sauron knew because he figured it out from Gollum that the thief who took the Ring was another one of these creatures like him. You know, this small Halfling. We talked about that, I think in the first week where he wouldn't have used the word Hobbit because he didn't know it. Gollum.
- [87:51]
B
Right. Yeah.
- [87:52]
A
And he wouldn't have used Halfling because he didn't like it. But Sauron would know he's a Halfling.
- [87:57]
B
Yeah. I will say, you know, I do believe that, you know, look, you know, I'm a big fan of. Of maps and so naturally, yes, I'm gonna go look at like the. The map. And taking a closer look at the map here, I will note that Arthedine is where the Shire is. So if, you know, the. The Witch King didn't spend as much time in Arthedyne, you know, they wouldn't
- [88:29]
A
have been able to. Right, because that was the last.
- [88:30]
B
Because that's. That's the last one standing against. So the Shire is within Arthedine. But we see the Old Forest. It's like right on the border with Cardolin. And we know that he's sending these spirits from Card because Cardalan was where the Barrows are.
- [88:46]
A
And we know that that weathertop actually sits at the junction of all three of the realms.
- [88:51]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [88:52]
A
It's technically in Arthedain, but it's like that's the farthest southeast corner of Arthedyne. And you've got Rudauer on the north side of the road to its east and you got Carolan to its south. So it's, it's right there, man. But okay, yeah, it is. I guess we have to accept it.
- [89:09]
B
It's across the border. I don't know. I don't know. You know, plus he's got a lot of stuff going on when he's running a war all by himself.
- [89:17]
A
I mean he's, he's a president of Angmar.
- [89:20]
B
Usually Sauron's the one running things and he's kind of like thrust into this leadership role for the first time.
- [89:26]
A
He's learned that really isn't his skill set. You know, he's not so much an executive, he's more of, he's like, you
- [89:31]
B
know what the, the number two has more fun anyway.
- [89:34]
A
Yeah, he's, he's settled into this role nicely. Yeah. Even if he were offered the promotion, he wouldn't take it.
- [89:40]
B
Yeah. All right, all right.
- [89:42]
A
So after gleaning all of the useful information from this man, this dunlending, the Witch King puts the Shadow of Fear onto him. And that's the, the way that I'm using my voice to tell you that the Shadow of Fear was capitalized. So that's the shadow to you, sir. Yeah.
- [90:00]
B
Yeah. And he's taken one of Saruman's most trusted spies here and turned him into a spy for himself. That's very effective.
- [90:08]
A
Yeah, I noticed though he doesn't even seem to bother about like turning him into a double agent. It's not like, okay, now that I've turned you, go back and give me information from. He doesn't care.
- [90:17]
B
It's like, no, he's just like you're, you're.
- [90:21]
A
I'll just take you from Saruman and you're my guy. Yeah.
- [90:24]
B
And after all that we're given the grand reveal. He is the squint eyed Southerner at the Prancing Pony.
- [90:32]
A
That's right. And to remind ourselves about him, let's go back to the Lord of the Rings. We're going to first go back to chapter nine at the Sign of the Prancing Pony, where we read that one of the travelers, a squint eyed ill favored fellow, was foretelling that more and more people would be coming north in the near future. If room isn't found for them, they'll find it for themselves. They've a right to live same as other folk, he said loudly. The local inhabitants did not look pleased at the prospect.
- [91:00]
B
And later on, after Frodo unwisely sang the Cow Jumped over the Moon and ended up invisible for his efforts, we read there was one swarthy Bree lender who stood looking at them with a knowing and half mocking expression that made them feel very uncomfortable. Presently he slipped out of the door followed by the squint eyed southerner. The two had been whispering together a good deal during the evening.
- [91:30]
A
Wonder what they were talking about. This hail's pretty good.
- [91:33]
B
Yeah, I'm sure it was all about
- [91:35]
A
the ale to try the shepherd's piece. It's really good tonight. Yeah, I was working on my needle, my needle point the other day. I don't think they were talking about that after they dragged the unconscious Mary back to the inn after he was exposed to the Black Breath. Aragorn says they will know all the news now, for they have visited Bill Fernie and probably that southerner was a spy as well. He was actually Aragorn's right. And then finally on their way out of Bree, we read the hobbits took no notice of the inquisitive heads that peeped out of doors or popped over walls and fences as they passed. Can I just say, for the first time ever I caught the alliteration in that phrase that peeped out of doors or popped over walls and fences as they passed.
- [92:20]
B
Nice.
- [92:20]
A
That's Tolkien.
- [92:22]
B
Does that sound a fan of the alliteration?
- [92:24]
A
I am, but I also love the way Tolkien adds musicality to his prose. Like that's why I'm always going to argue for people reading it out loud. Anyway, the passage continues, but as they drew near to the further gate, Frodo saw a dark ill kept house behind a thick hedge, the last house in the village. In one of the windows he caught a glimpse of a sallow face with sly slanting eyes, but it vanished at once. So that's where that southerner is hiding, he thought. He looks more than half like a goblin.
- [92:56]
B
And after the destruction of Isengard by the Ents, when Aragorn is visiting with Merry, Merry tells him that he saw the faces of the men coming out of Isengard with Saruman's orcs. There were some others that were horrible man high but with goblin faces, sallow, leering, squint eyed. Do you know, they reminded me at once of that southerner at Bree Only he was not so obviously orc like as most of these were.
- [93:27]
A
That definitely brings us to the half orc thing because Aragorn says something exactly to that point. I thought of him too, said Aragorn. We had many of these half orcs to deal with at Helm's Deep. It seems plain now that that southerner was a spy of Saruman's. But whether he was working with the Black Riders or for Saruman alone, I do not know. It is difficult with these evil folk to know when they are in league and when they are cheating one another. I like that.
- [93:55]
B
That's yeah, a very astute observation.
- [93:58]
A
A very real world applicable observation.
- [94:01]
B
Yeah, all right with that, Alan, let's turn back to the text for our last reading of the episode.
- [94:09]
A
All right. In version B it is noted that the Black Captain did not know whether the Ring was still in the Shire. That he had to find out the Shire was too large for a violent onslaught such as he had made on the stours he must use as much stealth and as little terror as he could and yet also guard the eastern borders. Therefore he sent some of the riders into the Shire with orders to disperse while traversing it. And of these Camul was to find Hobbiton where Baggins lived, according to Saruman's papers. But the Black Captain established a camp at Andrath where the Greenway passed in a defile between the Barrow Downs and the South Downs. And from there some others were sent to watch and patrol the eastern borders while he himself visited the Barrow Downs. In notes on the movements of the Black Riders at that time, it is said that the Black Captains stayed there for some days and the Barrow wights were roused and all things of evil spirits hostile to elves and men were on the watch with malice in the Old Forest and on the Barrow Downs.
- [95:18]
B
Now this is a short section, but it stood alone after the last bits partly because it's a segment from version B. Most of what we've looked at today was C, but also because we've shifted location from Isengard to the Shire and Saruman isn't in the discussion here.
- [95:36]
A
That's right. So in this version B, the Witch King doesn't know if the Ring is still in the Shire, so he has to do some recon to find out. I think we have read bits and pieces that strongly suggest, you know, their. Their awareness of the Ring's presence is not strong unless they're in close proximity to it.
- [95:54]
B
Yeah, I think. Yeah, and I think that's. That's kind of a thing that's kind of hinted at that there's a larger distance in the film adaptation, you know, where you see like Frodo put it on and Bree. And then all of a sudden they're like doing a U turn around the highway.
- [96:11]
A
Yeah, not gonna happen.
- [96:13]
B
Not so much. Yeah.
- [96:15]
A
No. But of course if this were some small isolated community, they might just be able to attack instead, right? Forget about trying to find out where Baggins is, kill everybody and find the Ring, you know. But the Shire is far too large for that. I mean, even a single settlement in the Shire like Hobbiton or Bywater would be too large to really do that. So the Witch King knows they've got to turn the terror down and the stealth up. And that's kind of hard to do when terror is your main weapon. But that's what they got to do.
- [96:45]
B
That's what they got to do. Oh, and he also has to keep his eyes on the eastern borders of the Shire in order to prevent it and its bear from getting out into the wild and heading to Rivendell. Yeah, so he sends some of the Nazgul into the Shire, telling them to spread out and look for news. And we're told that Kamuul is one of these. And he was tasked with finding Hobbiton in particular.
- [97:12]
A
Remember a couple of weeks ago when we learned that it was Kamuul who spoke with the Gaffer? He was also the one who nearly got to the Hobbits in time at the buck.
- [97:19]
B
In the meantime, he sets up camp just off the road, south of Bree. In fact, Gandalf told the council as much, saying their captain remained in secret away south of Bree and some of the ones he'd retained were keeping an eye on those eastern borders.
- [97:37]
A
This is where it's nice to have eight people at your command, you know?
- [97:40]
B
Yeah, it's handy.
- [97:42]
A
It is. So he goes to the Barrow Downs himself. Staying there for a while and and kicking over the anthill, so to speak. Waking up all the Barrow wights. Can you imagine? Like I've been asleep for 173 years. What do you want? No, he wakes them all up. And he's ensuring that all things of evil spirit, that is the things that are opposed to the free peoples of Middle Earth were on the watch with malice in The Old Forest and on the Barrow Downs. And I gotta say, that mention of the Old Forest speaks to me of Old Man Willow. Not just the whites. Like, that's why he was awake and looking interesting. Yeah, it really is interesting. I feel like there's. I mean, he's not said to have the kind of influence in the Old Forest that he has in the Barrow Downs. He didn't send evil spirits to go live there. But the fact that he's able to ensure that these things of evil spirit are on the watch with malice, that very strongly to me suggests Old Man Willow.
- [98:38]
B
Yeah. It is interesting to note that, you know, the Old Forest was part of Cardolin back in the day.
- [98:45]
A
Yeah.
- [98:45]
B
Just as. As I was looking at that border earlier, I did note that and was. And thinking, you know, that's kind of interesting that Tom Brumbadil's land fell into Cardolin.
- [98:57]
A
Yeah, yeah. Because the border was the Branduin.
- [98:59]
B
That's right.
- [99:01]
A
All right. In notes on the movements of Barnum and Butterbur at that time, it is said that he stayed there for some days and the. The mailbags were roused and all letters of evil spirit hostile to Allan and Matt were on the way with malice. I'm stretching these folks, man. I'm trying. I. I always got to make that textual connection. Matt, what does Bartland have in his bag for us today?
- [99:21]
B
Well, Allan, you and I are. We're both sports guys. And we are. We. We are in that Venn diagram of Tolkien nerd and sports guy. And I know not every person that.
- [99:33]
A
I was going to say most of the Tolkien circle is not in that sliver. Yeah, we're.
- [99:38]
B
We're pretty rare, like, at these. At these Tolkien get togethers. You know, if there's a big sports thing going on, I know that I can go to you and talk about and like, that's about it. So here lately, you know, as. As the spring has. Has begun to sprung, we've had. We've had some great sports things. We've. We've had the World Baseball Classic. We've had March Madness. We've. We've got the NFL draft.
- [100:08]
A
Well, we haven't had it yet as we're recording it, but by the time this comes out, we will. But.
- [100:13]
B
Yeah, a couple months ago, there's Super Bowl. We have. We have.
- [100:16]
A
You want to predict who wins the NCAA tournament?
- [100:19]
B
Basketball. No, no.
- [100:21]
A
People hear this.
- [100:22]
B
You're getting warm.
- [100:23]
A
That was a month ago.
- [100:24]
B
That was a month ago. No, but in the spirit of all these and, you know, NHL and Stuff is. Is upcoming. As people are hearing this, you know, I've got a Middle Earth bracket for you. This is. This is from a March Madness, so it's a little dated, but I'm gonna feed you a March Madness bracket and you're gonna select. You're gonna do your picks, and we're gonna come up with champion.
- [100:51]
A
Okay. What's. What's the actual sport or game? What are they playing?
- [100:55]
B
So this is the category. And. And this is. This is by an account called Joking With Tolkien.
- [101:01]
A
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [101:03]
B
So it's all duos. So, okay, we've got, like, these are unlikely friendships, brothers in arms, you know, destined duo. Like, there's different categories. Okay, so. So we've got the four quadrants here. The four. I can't remember what they call the different brackets.
- [101:24]
A
The different.
- [101:24]
B
Yeah, yeah. So I'm going to give you matchups and I'm going to track it. Yeah, the regions. There we go. All right, so we're going to start in Region one. We've got Frodo and Sam versus Celebrimbor and Annotar.
- [101:40]
A
Well, come on. I mean, look, I love Frodo and Sam as much as anybody, but again, what are they doing? Are they playing chess? Or is this, like.
- [101:47]
B
I think. I think this is, like, just who
- [101:49]
A
would win in a fight?
- [101:50]
B
Who? No, no, I think this is just like. Like, which one's the best? Like, which one's the best? You know, if you had to eliminate one from the books or something. Like, which one?
- [102:02]
A
Okay, Frodo and Sam. Go forward then. Because if this is like a fight. Give me a break. You're talking about an immortal Maya spirit against two Hobbits. But. Okay, if it's. If this isn't combat here.
- [102:13]
B
Yeah. Like, what's. What's the best? You're saying like this? Yeah.
- [102:17]
A
All right. Between those two. Frodo and Sam. So we're.
- [102:20]
B
By the end of this. Yeah, by the end of this, we're getting your best. Your best combo of duo. Okay.
- [102:25]
A
Okay.
- [102:25]
B
All right, matchup two. Thorin and Bilbo versus Morgoth and Sauron.
- [102:31]
A
Ooh, Morgoth, Sauron gotta have nasty villains.
- [102:33]
B
All right. Gollum and Smeagol versus Saruman and Wormtongue.
- [102:40]
A
I'm gonna advance. Gollum and Smeagol.
- [102:42]
B
Okay. It's a pretty good combo, too. I love that.
- [102:45]
A
They're great.
- [102:46]
B
Listed as, too. Bilbo and Gandalf or Sauron and Saruman.
- [102:52]
A
Bilbo and Gandalf.
- [102:54]
B
Nice. All right, we're going let's. Let's go ahead and go through this.
- [102:59]
A
Okay. We're going to pick the. Going to go down to the final four. Basically, we're going to pick this region all the way to the end.
- [103:04]
B
All right, so Frodo and Sam versus Morgoth and Sauron.
- [103:08]
A
Oh, man, I love Frodo and Sam. You gotta go.
- [103:11]
B
I love these brackets because it's all. It always comes down to this, where people are like, oh, man, come on. Like, you can't make this. This is the nature of this game.
- [103:20]
A
So by the end of this game, you don't have a story. You have two characters.
- [103:24]
B
Right?
- [103:25]
A
Okay. Frodo and Sam. All right.
- [103:27]
B
Okay. Gollum and Smeagol versus Bilbo and Gandalf.
- [103:31]
A
Bilbo and Gandalf.
- [103:33]
B
All right.
- [103:33]
A
Until I'm a hobbit at heart.
- [103:35]
B
Frodo and Sam versus Bilbo and Gandalf.
- [103:38]
A
Oh, man, that stinks. Frodo and Sam.
- [103:43]
B
All right.
- [103:43]
A
They win the region.
- [103:44]
B
Okay.
- [103:45]
A
All right.
- [103:45]
B
Let's go.
- [103:46]
A
So now we're into the Northeast region. All right.
- [103:49]
B
We've got Boromir and Faramir versus Shagrat and Gorbag.
- [103:54]
A
Boromir and Faramir. Faramir. I'm a Faramir, Stan. You know I am. It's going to be hard for him not to win the region.
- [104:00]
B
Right. They are ranked number one in the region. I will say they're number one seed.
- [104:04]
A
That makes sense. Yeah.
- [104:05]
B
Yeah. Eladan and Elro here versus Marion Pippin.
- [104:10]
A
I'm going to shock everybody here. I'm going to take the 12 seed over the five seed and take Ella down. And Elro here.
- [104:16]
B
All right.
- [104:17]
A
Doesn't that feel like a 12. 5 upset? Yeah. All right.
- [104:20]
B
They have it as a 4 versus.
- [104:22]
A
Well, that's because you only have four things.
- [104:25]
B
We only have.
- [104:25]
A
Yeah. Eight.
- [104:26]
B
Okay. Maedhros and Maglor versus Aragorn and Eomer.
- [104:32]
A
Aragorn and Eomer. Those two just absolutely rocking the fourth age. Yeah.
- [104:37]
B
Elrond and Elros versus Alatar and Palando.
- [104:42]
A
Ooh, a Blue Wizards reference. Elrond and Elros.
- [104:46]
B
Okay. All right. We're gonna see this region out. Boromir and Faramir versus Eladan and Elrohir.
- [104:55]
A
I resent you for making me choose Boromir and Faramir.
- [104:59]
B
All right. Which leaves Aragorn and Eomer versus Elrond and Elros.
- [105:04]
A
Aragorn and Amir.
- [105:07]
B
Which then gets you.
- [105:09]
A
No.
- [105:10]
B
For the Mannish crown. Boromir and Faramir versus Aragorn and Eomer.
- [105:16]
A
Oh, man. Come on. See, this is tough because. Because Faramir should make it, but Aragorn should make it. Should be Aragorn. One from each. Aragorn and Faramir make it. They win. That's not how this works. I'll play by the rules and. And I'm going to choose. Can't believe I'm going to say this. Aragorn and Naomeh.
- [105:36]
B
All right. That's the number six seed, by the way. That's where they had them. I'm surprised.
- [105:41]
A
The reason for me is that I love Boromir. Don't get me wrong. Now that I. That's such a tough one. I just. I really admire Aragorn and I really admire Faramir.
- [105:53]
B
He's the king of the reunited kingdoms.
- [105:55]
A
Well, eventually, at first, he's just a tall guy in a pub.
- [105:59]
B
Well, yeah, that's fair.
- [106:03]
A
Can I change my vote? I'm going to go. Boromir and Faramir.
- [106:06]
B
We're going to change. Okay.
- [106:08]
A
Yeah. Because, see, Faramir just represents the absolute best of everything. All right.
- [106:13]
B
Okay.
- [106:15]
A
And it does give us a chance to look at the redemptive arcs of Char. I love that. Boromir makes a terrible choice, and there are consequences of that choice, but he repents. He turns back. He does the right thing. It's one of the very few characters that actually does. Tolkie gives everybody a chance to fix their mistakes and to make it right. Everybody, Morgoth, Sauron, Feanor, Gollum, everybody gets a chance. Boromir, Saruman especially, gets, like, 12 chances.
- [106:43]
B
Yeah, Saruman gets a lot of chances,
- [106:45]
A
but Boromir does it anyway.
- [106:49]
B
All right, so region three here, and I will say I've noticed they've pulled a couple from a recent adaptation, so. No, there's a couple.
- [107:02]
A
Well, it'll be easy choices, then. Go ahead.
- [107:04]
B
Luthien and Huan versus Elrond and Durin.
- [107:09]
A
I see what they're doing with this, because Elrond and Durin is definitely out of the adaptation. And that's tough because that's one of the best pairings in it, is power.
- [107:15]
B
It is a good.
- [107:16]
A
How can you. How can you go against the most beautiful being who has ever been and the best boy ever?
- [107:24]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [107:25]
A
Luthien and Huon, they're probably going to win the region. It's going to be tough to pick anybody else.
- [107:29]
B
Turin and Beleg versus Baron and Finrod.
- [107:34]
A
Damn you. Wow. Those are two of the absolute most amazing pairs right there in the first round. Yeah, I have to go. I have to go. Baron and Finrod. I. And it's so hard because Turin and Beleg are just.
- [107:54]
B
I know. Especially Beleg.
- [107:57]
A
Yeah, especially Beleg. If you had said Beleg and Mablung, I would have gone Bellig and Mablung.
- [108:04]
B
Oh, nice.
- [108:05]
A
Yeah. But.
- [108:06]
B
All right, so Elendil and Gil Galad. Oh, versus Sam and Bill the Pony.
- [108:14]
A
Oh, I love some salmon, Bill the Pony. But I've got to go. Elendil and Gil Galad for sure.
- [108:20]
B
Okay. I thought. I thought you might pick Sam.
- [108:23]
A
No. No.
- [108:26]
B
All right. Legolas and Gimli versus Pippin and Baragon.
- [108:32]
A
Ooh, I love that. It's not Pippin and Merry.
- [108:34]
B
Yeah, that's kind of fun, isn't it?
- [108:36]
A
See, Beregond, because of what he did to save Faramir, is one of my favorite characters.
- [108:43]
B
I knew he was.
- [108:44]
A
And Legolas. I mean, I love the friendship of Legolas and Gimli, but let's be honest, Legolas doesn't even hardly know who Frodo is. Have you ever seen this as cuts like the Lord of the Rings?
- [108:55]
B
It doesn't say Legolas and Frodo, Legolas and Gimli.
- [108:59]
A
But I have to take the pair. I'm gonna. I'm gonna pull the shocker here and say Pippen and Baragon. But I don't expect I'll make it past the next round. I don't think either of those pairings are gonna make it past the next round, so.
- [109:10]
B
All right, so that leaves us with Luthien and Huan versus Baron and Finrod.
- [109:14]
A
This is really, really brutal, man. Luthien and Huan.
- [109:21]
B
Nice. Yeah. Elendil and Gil Galad versus Pippin and Baragon.
- [109:26]
A
See, that's why. That's what I was saying. Even though I like Pippin and Baragon, they're not going to make it past the next round. Elendil and Gilgalad. So now you're telling me I got to choose Elendil and Gil Galad and
- [109:36]
B
Luthien and Huan and Huan. Yep.
- [109:39]
A
Okay. I'm still with Luthien and Huon. I'm. I'm riding that big shaggy boy all the way out to. All right. The foul. G.L.
- [109:48]
B
beren and Luthien vs. Tel Parion and Laurelin.
- [109:54]
A
Telperion and Laurelin. I'm sorry.
- [109:56]
B
Whoa.
- [109:57]
A
The trees. Are you kidding me?
- [109:59]
B
What? That is an eight over a one. Shocker. Holy smokes.
- [110:04]
A
Whoa.
- [110:05]
B
That's the first number one you haven't pulled into the final four.
- [110:09]
A
That's such a tough one. I almost said Baron and Luthien because. Of course, Baron and Luthien, but then you said Telperion and Lateralan. Beren doesn't even have a quest if it weren't for Telperion and Laurelan because they hold the light. The light that's in the silmaril that he captures was from the trees in the first place.
- [110:29]
B
I know the history, man. I'm still just, like, in shock right now. Like. All right, okay. Earendil and Elwing versus Tom and Goldberry.
- [110:40]
A
Earendil and Elwing. Yeah.
- [110:43]
B
All right.
- [110:43]
A
Yeah, you got to. I mean.
- [110:45]
B
All right. Sauron and the One Ring versus Galadriel and Celeborn.
- [110:51]
A
Galadriel and Celeborn.
- [110:52]
B
All right. Aragorn and Arwen.
- [110:56]
A
Don't you do this to me. All right.
- [110:58]
B
Are gonna. Are gonna just advance to the next round?
- [111:03]
A
Who is it?
- [111:04]
B
It was Galadriel and Halbrand.
- [111:06]
A
No. Yeah. You could pick anybody over those two.
- [111:10]
B
Yeah, okay. Yeah, let's. Let's get on.
- [111:14]
A
They're just gonna advance.
- [111:15]
B
I'm not even gonna ask you the question. Okay.
- [111:17]
A
Don't even dignify the question with the answer with the question.
- [111:20]
B
Telperion and Laurelin versus Earendil and Elwing.
- [111:25]
A
Oh, man. How long can the Cinderella story last? One round. Earendil and Elwing. All right? And I actually think I might have chosen them even over Baron and Luthien, so. Wow.
- [111:37]
B
Okay. I respect that.
- [111:39]
A
Arindel and Owing are something else.
- [111:41]
B
I mean, they're pretty awesome.
- [111:43]
A
Yeah.
- [111:44]
B
Galadriel and Celeborn and Air Andil and Elwing. It's like Baron and Luthien get all the attention for an epic quest, but it's like Arindel and Elwing, man. Like, they're through a lot.
- [111:56]
A
Yeah.
- [111:57]
B
Okay, so Galadriel and Celeborn versus Aragorn and Arwen, man.
- [112:02]
A
Aragorn and Arwen.
- [112:04]
B
Yeah, I was gonna say. I think that's.
- [112:06]
A
It's not that hard. It's hard because I really do have a ton of respect. I mean, Galadriel is pretty amazing. And when you read the History of Celeborn, you realize Tolkien kept making her better and better. Like, it just kept. Yeah. You know, like, she. She goes from being, like, you know, one of the most powerful women amongst the Eldar to being, you know, whatever. By the end, she's the most powerful of the Eldar. Except Feanor, maybe, right? You're like, wait a minute. Except Feanor maybe. Like, wow, that's crazy. That's pretty wild. Elevation. So she's something else. But I gotta choose Aragorn and Arwen. Yeah.
- [112:47]
B
All right, so that leaves Aragorn and Arwen now versus Earendil and Elwing.
- [112:53]
A
Earendel and Elwing. They saved the world, man.
- [112:58]
B
They were number four seed making it to the final four.
- [113:00]
A
Nice. A little bit of.
- [113:01]
B
A.
- [113:01]
A
Little bit of an upset there.
- [113:03]
B
All right.
- [113:04]
A
Oh, no. Now we're in the final four.
- [113:07]
B
Frodo and Sam versus Boromir and Faramir.
- [113:11]
A
You know, it's a good thing you're only here one more episode. Frodo and Sam. I. No, no, I. I've got to go. Boromir and Faramir. I'm too much of a Faramir stand. Faramir might just be cutting the. Cutting the nets, so.
- [113:27]
B
Man, and he's, like, carrying the team, too.
- [113:30]
A
He is carrying the team.
- [113:31]
B
Super. He's going number one overall in the draft.
- [113:35]
A
Yeah. You can be like Frodo and Sam. Or Faramir. Faramir.
- [113:40]
B
All right. Luthien and Huan versus Arendelle and El Wing.
- [113:44]
A
Oh, no. Earendel and Elwing. I hate to say it, but I do. Earendel's something else, but he's going to lose to Faramir and Boromir.
- [114:00]
B
Is he really? I'm a Homer Ayren. Dylan. El Wing, the number four seed against Boromir and Faramir.
- [114:09]
A
Their Cinderella run ends against the mighty brothers of men. Faramir really carried the tea. He is the mvp.
- [114:17]
B
Okay.
- [114:18]
A
Boromir was on the bench for most of the game, actually.
- [114:21]
B
On the bench for a duo's match.
- [114:24]
A
Lying down in the boat with his hands across his chest. All right, man, that was wild. A lot longer of a segment than I thought, but that was fun.
- [114:35]
B
But it fits. You know, the Prancing Pony is a pub, so if they. If they had true March Madness in sports, they would. They would have brackets at the Prancing Pony. Barliman would be all over that.
- [114:48]
A
Yes, he absolutely would. Folks, thank you for joining us for another episode of the Prancing Pony podcast. Please come back again next week when Solomon can dish it out but just can't take it.
- [114:58]
B
And can we really be surprised at this point?
- [115:00]
A
I know. Honestly, he's such. He's so fragile.
- [115:04]
B
Yes.
- [115:05]
A
Oh, man, what an ego.
- [115:06]
B
Folks, Alan and I want to thank the members of team PPP editor Jordan Rannells Barlam and Becca Davis. Social media manager Casey Hilsey, Event and Patreon community coordinator Katie McKenna. Graphic artist Megan Collins. Video editor Yonatan Lacens and website guru Phil Dean.
- [115:27]
A
And please take a minute to check out theprancingponypodcast.com that's where you'll find show notes, outtakes, maybe some from this episode. If we're lucky, Prancing Pony Ponderings and our fully revamped PPP Merch store. And that storefront is where you can get all sorts of really cool PPP merch, including all that incredible chapter art that Megan's been doing for us for nearly four seasons.
- [115:48]
B
We're all about the books here at the Prancing Pony Podcast, so be sure to also visit our library page. We try to make sure that any book we've mentioned on the show is linked there for you to purchase. We do get a small amount of compensation when you make your purchase, so thank you for that indeed.
- [116:04]
A
And we also want to thank our patrons at the Kirdan's contribution tier. I'll start with Demay in Alaska, Chad in Texas, Joseph in Michigan, Kathy from North Carolina, Brian in the uk, Jerry from Washington, Irwin from the Netherlands, Ben in Minnesota, Anthony in Texas, Zaksu in Illinois, Joshua in Massachusetts, Lucy in Texas, Erica in Texas, James in Massachusetts, Ann in Kentucky, and Sean in New Jersey. Jersey.
- [116:30]
B
There's also Mason in California, Maureen from Massachusetts, Olivia in London, Robert in Arizona, Nick in Wisconsin, Lewis in South Carolina, Thomas in Germany, Craig in California, Kevin in Massachusetts, Joe in Maryland, D. Scott in California, Jeffrey in Michigan, Paul in Colorado, David from Connecticut, and Teresa from Texas. Thank you all so very much for
- [116:56]
A
for your support indeed. Thank you.
- [116:58]
B
Make sure you don't miss any episodes of the Prancing Pony Podcast. Subscribe now through Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or your favorite podcast app.
- [117:07]
A
And one last thing. As always, don't forget to send your thoughts, comments, and most of all, your public defender referrals for Solomon to bartleman@the
- [117:16]
B
prancingponypodcast.com Bartleman does have a lot of mail to sort through though, so we'll try to get to you just as soon as we're able.
- [117:23]
A
As always, though, this has been far too short a time to spend among such excellent and admirable listeners.
- [117:29]
B
But until next time, this is the end. We are going. We are leaving now. Goodbye.
- [117:47]
A
Sa.