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- [00:00]
A
You know, with Mother's Day, Father's Day, graduations, weddings and more coming up, it's time to be thinking about gifts. And I keep finding myself coming back to Lola Blankets. These ultra soft, four way stretchy blankets make the absolutely perfect gift. And if you have one or have ever given one, you'll know why. Lola Blankets strike that perfect balance of a luxurious gift, but also really personal. It's thoughtful, it's elevated, and it's honestly something people get really excited to receive. So whatever the occasion, check out Lola Blankets for the people in your life. Available in a range of sizes, colors from the sublime to the spectacular, and even limited edition designer drops. For a limited time, our listeners can get 40% off select Lola Blankets products with Code Pony at checkout. Just head to lolablankets.com and use code pony. After you purchase, they'll ask where you heard about them. Please support our show and let them know we sent you. Wrap yourself in luxury with Lola Blankets. Hey sweetie. Your mother showed me this Carvana thing for selling the car. I'm gonna give it a try. Wish me luck. Me again. I put in the license plate. It gave me an offer. Unbelievable. Okay, I accepted the offer. They're picking it up Tuesday from the driveway. I haven't even left my chair. It's done. The car is gone. I'm holding a check anyway. Carvana, give it a whirl. Love ya.
- [01:27]
B
So good you'll want to leave a voicemail about it.
- [01:29]
A
Sell your car today on Carvana. Pickup fees may apply. Good evening, little masters, and welcome to episode 412 of the Prancing Pony podcast where, well, Matt is ever ready to gainsay me or to make little of my counsels.
- [01:55]
B
Have you ever thought that just maybe you're no Gandalf.
- [02:00]
A
I know Gandalf, and you're no Gandalf.
- [02:04]
B
Folks, pull up a bench in the common room and join us. I'm Matt, the Nerd of the Rings. And I'm here with the man of the west who has no time for the simples of peasants, Alan Sisto.
- [02:15]
A
Don't insult our listeners like that, Matt.
- [02:17]
B
Wow, I wasn't calling them peasants. I was just saying in general.
- [02:22]
A
I see. Okay, folks, join us as Saruman is jealous of Gandalf again. And we conclude our four part look at the hunt for the Ring from unfinished tales and say farewell for now to the Nerd of the Rings.
- [02:36]
B
Folks, no matter whether you came to Middle Earth through the books, the films, the TV show, or something else, each of you is welcome here in Our common room. The Prancing Pony Podcast continues in our 10th season of Reading and talking our way through Middle Earth with conversations, digressions, and even speculations.
- [02:55]
A
Not to mention a few puns and bad jokes here and there. But our purpose is to dive deep into the lore, discussing the story, our favorite characters and themes, Tolkien's inspirations, and a whole lot more.
- [03:06]
B
And while we take the work seriously, the same can't be said about ourselves. We're just a couple friends chatting at the pub. And we're glad you've joined us.
- [03:15]
A
And I'm sure you'll be glad you joined as well. But before we get to today's chapter discussion, it's time for us, well, to go back to this extended sidebar digression intro sequence that we started last week. And no, it's not more pipe weed. I mean, the dispensary is emptied this time. I want to take a closer look at the Nazgul, since they featured so heavily over the preceding three episodes.
- [03:38]
B
In hindsight, we probably should have done that digression last week and the pipe weed one today. But I'm not in charge of that stuff, so don't blame me.
- [03:48]
A
Wow. Just throw me under the bus, all right?
- [03:49]
B
That's right.
- [03:50]
A
Those wheels aren't too heavy. No, I'm all right. Goodness. Let me just get the tire marks off my shirt. Well, fair. We should have done the sidebar on the Black Riders last week and the pipe weed this week. But it really is time for us to take a closer look at the Ringwraiths. The Ulayri. That's actually my favorite word for them. The Nine. The Nazgul. We're going to take some time here to look at their origin and nature, so some of their powers, how they interact with the scene world, and maybe those strange weaknesses we talked about the last couple weeks, right?
- [04:22]
B
Yeah. Well, first, let's go back earlier in Unfinished Tales to the history of Galadriel and Celeborn. This is where we get all the detail about the founding of Eregion, along with Celebrimbor and the Gwaithy Mirdain, the group of smiths that originally made the rings of power. That is around the year 1500 in the second age. Sauron, who had been influencing Celebrimbor and his fellow Smiths since around the Second Age, 1200, in the guise of Annatar, the Lord of Gifts. He leaves Eregion after the Mirdain had begun the making of the Rings of Power.
- [05:01]
A
Now, trust me, folks, we need to get through this part about Sauron and the rings in order to get to the Nazgul. So let's move on from that part of the history of Gladriel and Celeborn to the tale of years Lord of the Rings appendix B where we learned that around 1600 of the Second Age, so about 100 years after he leaves Eregion, Sauron forged the One Ring. And that's when Celebrimbor perceived his designs kind of went oops. I mean, it's not in the text, but I'm pretty sure that that was his reaction.
- [05:27]
B
Or if you're in the Midwest, the word is OPE.
- [05:30]
A
OPE. So nearly a hundred years later after that, in Second Age 1697, Eregion gets wiped out, right? Sauron captures both the House of the Miradine. He also captures Celebrimbor. After refusing to tell Sauron anything about the three was promptly turned into a pin cushion and battle banner. We also learned that Sauron got hold of the Nine at that point. That's what's important here, presumably also the Seven. Durin's story notwithstanding, around the same time.
- [05:57]
B
Now let's shift gears and take a look at of the Rings of Power and the Third Age in the Silmarillion. There we read that Sauron gathered into his hands all the remaining Rings of Power and he dealt them out to the other peoples of Middle Earth, hoping thus to bring under his sway all those that desired secret power beyond the measure of their kind. Seven rings he gave to the dwarves, but to the men he gave nine. For men proved in this matter, as in others, the readiest to his will.
- [06:33]
A
What does that say about men, Matt?
- [06:35]
B
And that's nothing great. I will say that.
- [06:38]
A
No. And we're actually reminded of that in the very next paragraph. Men proved easier to ensnare compared to the dwarves. Those who use the Nine Rings became mighty in their day. Kings, sorcerers and warriors of old. They obtained glory and great wealth. Yet it turned to their undoing. They had as it seemed, unending life. Yet life became unendurable to them. They could walk if they would, unseen by all eyes in this world beneath the sun. And they could see things in worlds invisible to mortal men. But too often they beheld only the phantoms and delusions of Sauron. You know, that sounds pretty miserable.
- [07:20]
B
It does. That sounds like a zero out of five star experience.
- [07:24]
A
Yeah. Would not repeat. Yeah, yeah. One by one. The text continues. Sooner or later, according to their native strength and to the good or evil of their wills. In the beginning they fell under the thraldom of the ring that they bore and under the domination of the one which was Sauron's. And they became forever invisible save to him that wore the ruling ring. And they entered into the realm of shadows. The Nazgul. Were they the Ringwraiths? The enemy's most terrible servants. Darkness went with them. And they cried with the voices of death. Especially when they had to get their feet wet.
- [08:02]
B
Clearly.
- [08:04]
A
Oh, I hear a Nazgul scream. That's because he's being forced to walk across the river.
- [08:09]
B
That's such a great lie. They cried with the voices of death. And then. Yeah, the feet wet joke.
- [08:15]
A
They're just crying.
- [08:17]
B
Yeah. Oh no.
- [08:19]
A
My, my socks are all wet now. What am I gonna do?
- [08:23]
B
I will say wet socks is a pretty awful feeling.
- [08:27]
A
So Kamul's like, man, I brought an extra pair. I don't know what your problem was.
- [08:30]
B
He should. Maybe he was wearing flip flops. I don't know. It's prepared. Or those water shoes, you know, the perforated and stuff. Well, anyway, so let's break down. What happened to these men? They had everything they wanted. They had money, power, glory, success, position, and seemingly unending life. And we'll get to that bit in, in a little bit here. But there was a high price to pay. They would each eventually fall under the control of their ring. And since those rings are subservient to the One Ring, they're under Sauron's control now.
- [09:09]
A
Yep.
- [09:10]
B
And that's also when they become invisible, entering the realm of the unseen. As we read earlier in this chapter. They had no will but his own being. Each utterly subservient to the ring that had enslaved him. Which Sauron held.
- [09:28]
A
Yeah, that's a bad spot. That's the proverbial deal with the devil.
- [09:34]
B
Yeah, it really is.
- [09:35]
A
They got what they wanted. But boy, yeah, at what price? And that price is steep. As movie Aragorn says, they are the Nazgul ring wraiths, neither living nor dead. And he's right, they are somewhere in between. They are not living really, and they're not dead. They are unseen. They don't have what we think of as corporeal physical existence. Their bodies having faded long ago, their spirits, their faar right, still carrying on, totally enslaved to the One Ring. So like both Gollum and Bilbo, how they were stretched, the Nazgul were stretched even further. They were like the tiniest sliver of butter spread over a million pieces of toast. You know, I mean, like you there, there's just no butter there anymore. They're so. They're far beyond the limits of their physical bodies.
- [10:29]
B
Yeah. And it is a great illustration of what. What would happen if, you know, Gollum or Bilbo were to have the ring for. For much, much longer than they even did.
- [10:40]
A
Exactly. I mean, I think even Gollum, had he had to use it more than he did.
- [10:46]
B
Yes.
- [10:47]
A
Had he worn it all the time, that would have been even more problematic. But he was living under the mountain. He didn't have to wear it very often. He was pretty much in hiding anyway.
- [10:56]
B
Yeah.
- [10:56]
A
And then it's the same thing with Bilbo. Bilbo only used it a few times. Would have been better if he hadn't used it at all, but. So for this next part, I want to go back to the timeline for a bit. So the rings that Sauron got after he took over Eregion, they were distributed sometime after that capture in second age 1697. But obviously sometime before the first Ring Wraith's appearance, which was about 550 years later in second age 2251. In those intervening years, a lot has happened, right? The shadow has begun to fall on the men of Numenor as they're growing jealous of the serial longevity of the elves, even with, or possibly because of the longer lifespans that they had. And as we've talked about this season, both with Sarah in our talks on Eldarin and Rendus, and then also with James and in the story of Tal Elmar, the Numenoreans have also greatly expanded their power in the west of Middle Earth in this time frame. So about a thousand years after they first appear. So now in 3262, second age, that's when Sauron is taken prisoner. And you should hear the air quotes there, because he very much used that as an excuse. He just wanted to get over there. So that's when Ar Pharazon captures him and Sauron puts on those finishing touches of the corruption of the Numenoreans. We're never told the specific identities of any of the Nazgul. I mean, we're only given one name, Kamul the Easterling. But we do know that three of the nine are in fact great lords of Numenorean race. And that's a quote from the Akalabeth. Their enraithening, I love that word. Would have been completed about a millennium before Sauron got his visa for Numenor.
- [12:29]
B
Of course, when Sauron was overthrown at the end of the Second Age, they faded, but they begin to reappear around 1300 of the Third Age, about 200 years after Sauron made his stronghold at Dol Guldur.
- [12:45]
A
What an awful existence for 1300 years. They basically aren't.
- [12:50]
B
Yes, yeah.
- [12:51]
A
I mean, they aren't dead. They don't get to leave the circles of the world and go where the elves know. Not 1300 years of just nothing.
- [13:00]
B
Yeah. And I mean, that's a bit of what you know. Sauron's somewhat. A shade of Sauron's existence during this time as well as he's working his way back to power.
- [13:12]
A
But he was always a being of. Because he was a Maya to begin with.
- [13:17]
B
Yes.
- [13:17]
A
He didn't have. He put on a physical presence. He put. He puts on the raiment. Right. These Nazgul had been men. They've been human beings with bodies.
- [13:28]
B
A very bizarre torturous existence for. For a being like, you've got to
- [13:33]
A
imagine they're conscious, they're aware of the passage of time, but they don't have any.
- [13:38]
B
Yeah.
- [13:39]
A
Oh, that's just terrifying in a way. The other people that I feel are just as bad for are the ones that follow Pharazon to Emon and are buried in the caves of the forgotten. You wanted immortality, You've got it.
- [13:54]
B
You got it.
- [13:56]
A
You're not getting out for a long time.
- [13:58]
B
There's a lot of careful what you wish for, isn't there in Tolkien?
- [14:03]
A
Yeah, boy. Anyway, continue. I. I want to move on to how they interact with the scene world. So, Matt, what do you got?
- [14:09]
B
So, yeah, let's talk about that first. As we've seen in this chapter, if they're not wearing their robes or armor, their physical form is invisible. They clearly have a physical form or they wouldn't be able to wear clothing after all.
- [14:25]
A
Yeah. Where does it go? Or is it. It just collapses on the floor in a heap?
- [14:28]
B
Exactly. Yeah. So they. They clearly have some kind of physical form. And we see when Gandalf confronts the Witch King, we get this line. The Black rider flung back his hood, and behold, he had a kingly crown. And yet upon no head visible was it set. The red fires shone between it and the mantled shoulders, vast and dark. From a mouth unseen there came a deadly laughter.
- [14:57]
A
And we know what that laughter sounds like thanks to the Rankin and Bass return of the King.
- [15:00]
B
That's right, Kingdom E. Now for. So all this to say they have bodies, but they are permanently invisible bodies. Bodies that have completely faded from the scene world.
- [15:19]
A
Next. Their bodies are apparently invulnerable to ordinary weapons as we see, right. They can only be harmed by something made to purpose. After Mary tries to recover the blade that he used to stab the Witch King on the pollenor, he finds it was smoking like a dry branch that has been thrust in a fire. And as he watched it, it writhed and withered and was consumed. Well, the narrator goes on to explain why this happened, and it's absolutely essential to understanding why Eowyn was then able to kill the Witch King with a normal sword after Merry stabbed him in the leg with that very special weapon. So passed the sword of the Barrow, Downs work of Westerness. But glad would he have been to know its fate, who wrought it slowly. Long ago in the North Kingdom, when the Dunedain were young and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will, Mary strike with this sword of Westerness, the one they got from the Barrows, the one that Peter Jackson forgot to tell us how he got it, broke a spell that essential the Witch King's body together and held it to his own power, his own will. That's what enabled him to then be killed by Eowyn's stroke, which fulfilled the prophecy of Gorfindale. Lead the way. Right. Not by the hand of man shall he fall. By the hand of Hobbit, by the hand of woman. Yes.
- [16:50]
B
And I have a feeling we'll talk about Mary's sword later on in our mailbag.
- [16:56]
A
Oh, good. Excellent.
- [16:57]
B
Yeah. Of course, you know, the. The Nazgul had their own powerful weapons. They had swords, at least one Morgul knife and a large mace. A little too big if the movies were right. That thing's a. That thing's a beast. But man is. It strikes a compelling image, I must say.
- [17:17]
A
It does. And if you're an orthopedic surgeon, you're like, wow, I'm going to be seeing this guy soon because he's going to rip his shoulders right out of his undead arms.
- [17:24]
B
But I will say I. I have a statue of the Witch King and he. He's holding that in his hand and it looks pretty.
- [17:29]
A
It is pretty bad. Yeah. Yeah.
- [17:32]
B
But their greatest weapon, especially powerful at night, was simply fear, an aura that affected creatures and men alike.
- [17:41]
A
Oh, we see it all throughout.
- [17:43]
B
Yeah, constantly. We're seeing this with the Nazgul throughout the text in Tolkien's letter to 10 written to Forrest J. Ackerman about the Glad it was never made Zimmerman script. He wrote about the Nazgul, that their peril is almost entirely due to the unreasoning fear which they inspire. Like ghosts, they have no great physical power against the fearless, but what they have and the fear that they inspire is enormously increased in darkness.
- [18:14]
A
That's right, yeah.
- [18:16]
B
And another weapon that they had was the Black Breath. And we see this having significant, even fatal effects. Then there was the power of the Witch King, who could affect matter with his voice, shattering the dagger from the Barrow Downs that Frodo held in his hand at the ford and weakening the gates of Minas Tirith. You know, we get that line that there were. There were spells upon grand and everything.
- [18:42]
A
Yeah, that's always pretty incredible stuff. In fact, we actually covered that. You and I did that chapter. Yeah, that was a really intense moment.
- [18:51]
B
Oh, gosh, it's so good. So good.
- [18:53]
A
It is so, so good. And that's the thing. I mean, his power, the power that is of the Witch King really increased throughout the course of the book by. And Tolkien talks about this, I think, in one of the letters where he talks about by the time of the War of the Ring and by the time they besieged Minas Tirith, his power is at its maximum. And it's far more than he had even during the early search for the Ring at the time on Weathertop. And yet certainly he had plenty of power there.
- [19:22]
B
Yeah, absolutely. And I just love. You know, you get. You get a sense even in that moment, like. Like we just said a moment ago, throughout the text, fear. Fear is. Is the overwhelming emotion associated with the Ringwraiths and.
- [19:38]
A
And surprise. Sorry. We knew. Everybody in the audience knew that was coming at some point today, but.
- [19:45]
B
Yeah, so we've got this fear. And I just love that line in this. This moment that we just referenced at the gates of Minas Tirith, where it says that all fled before his face, all save one, and it's just Gandalf.
- [20:02]
A
I love that moment.
- [20:04]
B
It's only Gandalf in all of Minas Tirith in this moment.
- [20:07]
A
He's the only one who could face off against the Witch King. Like Tolkien explains in that letter, they have no great physical power against the fearless. If you're not afraid of them, there's very little that they can do to you. Except at night.
- [20:23]
B
Yes.
- [20:24]
A
Yeah.
- [20:24]
B
Yeah.
- [20:25]
A
But then if you are at night, all you really need to do is pour out, like, a pitcher of water in front of you, and they're gonna run Away. Because, like we talked about earlier in this chapter, they got this strange weakness. Well, they actually have a couple of strange weaknesses. Not just the almost comical fear of water, which is really funny, but the fact they literally stray in the daylight. They just go wandering off. I don't even know where I'm going. Hey, Witcher King, what's going on? Oh, I'm supposed to be over there. Okay. I mean, it's. It's like this combination of total slapstick comedy.
- [21:01]
B
Yeah.
- [21:02]
A
Combined with pure psychological terror.
- [21:04]
B
Horror.
- [21:05]
A
Yeah.
- [21:05]
B
Yeah.
- [21:05]
A
It's like a combination of the Keystone Cops and Psycho. Just like, what in the world?
- [21:12]
B
What do you think their reaction would be to finding out that humans are, like, 70% water, you know?
- [21:19]
A
Yeah, I mean, I think.
- [21:20]
B
I mean, they're not anymore, but.
- [21:22]
A
No, they're. No, they're not much of anything.
- [21:24]
B
That's kind of. That's gonna blow their minds.
- [21:27]
A
Yeah.
- [21:27]
B
I think.
- [21:28]
A
Luckily, they aren't said to eat us, so I think they just.
- [21:31]
B
Yeah, no, that's true.
- [21:32]
A
Slay us. Or they take us to the Halls of Lamentation where we will suffer, you know, an eternity of torture.
- [21:38]
B
I do love that moment, too.
- [21:39]
A
The halls of Lamentation bear you away
- [21:41]
B
to the halls of Lamentation.
- [21:42]
A
I love that line. Oh, man. That. It's such a. It's such. Almost like a biblical description of hell.
- [21:50]
B
It is. Yeah.
- [21:51]
A
And it's just this sort of eternal terror. It's got, like, gnashing of teeth kind of things.
- [21:57]
B
Yeah. Gnashing of tea. It's. It's. Yeah. And like, as long and slow as our. Our.
- [22:03]
A
Oh, as our arts. Torture.
- [22:04]
B
Arts of torture can contrive or something like that. Like, oh, man, it is awful stuff.
- [22:11]
A
Yeah.
- [22:11]
B
It's like. No, thanks. Thank you for the offer, but no, I would not like to go to your hall of Lamentation. Yeah.
- [22:18]
A
I think I'm going to RSVP No.
- [22:20]
B
Yes.
- [22:21]
A
All right.
- [22:22]
B
All right. Well, with that, folks, let's get into our first reading for the night. Alan, you want to start us off?
- [22:28]
A
I will. Just a reminder, no Nazgul appear in this episode. So pretend you heard that intro last week and last week's intro this week. All right. Can we do that?
- [22:38]
B
That's it? Is that. Is this your strategy to get, like, repeat viewership on your episodes? People be like, oh, wait, I should.
- [22:43]
A
I hope people are at least listening to an entire chapter.
- [22:46]
B
I should go back and listen to the other episode again.
- [22:50]
A
That's right. At least the intro. Yeah. Yeah. All right, pick it up where we left off there with the Last section of the hunt for the Ring. Sodomon soon became jealous of Gandalf. And this rivalry turned at last to a hatred the deeper for being concealed and the more bitter in that. Sodomon knew in his heart that the Grey Wanderer had the greater strength and the greater influence upon the dwellers in Middle Earth. Even though he hid his power and desired neither fear nor reverence. Saruman did not revere him, but he grew to fear him being ever uncertain how much Gandalf perceived of his inner mind troubled more by his silences than by his words. So it was that openly he treated Gandalf with less respect than did others of the wise and was ever ready to gainsay him or to make little of his counsels while secretly he noted and pondered all that he said setting a watch so far as he was able upon all his movements. It was in this way that Sodomon came to give thought to the Halflings and the Shire which otherwise he would have deemed beneath his notice. He had at first no thought that the interest of his rival in this people had any connection with the great concerns of the Council. Least of all with the Rings of Power. For indeed, in the beginning it had no such connection and was due only to Gandalf's love for the little people. Unless his heart had some deep premonition beyond his waking thought. For many years he visited the Shire openly and would speak of its people to any who would listen. And Sodomon would smile as at the idle tales of an old Land Rover. But he took heed nonetheless. The idle tales of an old Land Rover. Just makes me wonder, like, does it also have electrical problems? You know I do.
- [24:43]
B
I knew there could be a car joke.
- [24:45]
A
There had to be a car joke there.
- [24:46]
B
All right, I did.
- [24:48]
A
Like the Fords. Come on down to the ford. Get your F150. Yeah.
- [24:57]
B
Glorfindel. Get you the best deal.
- [24:58]
A
That's right. Guaranteed 0.9 for 72 months. That's right. Come on down.
- [25:04]
B
But you know what? If. If Glorfindel's not there then Arwen will be to get you a good deal. So there you go.
- [25:09]
A
That. Yeah, I'd buy a car from Arwen
- [25:11]
B
because they swapped out the movies.
- [25:13]
A
Allen swapped her out.
- [25:15]
B
That was for de Bruynen. Okay, cool. All right. Well, anyway, guys, let's circle back to the topic at hand here. So we skipped Christopher's intro here where he tells us about yet another set of documents. This time, not a different version of the story of the Hunt itself but specifically about Saruman's interest in the Shire and in pipe weed.
- [25:39]
A
And though the text that we're going to read today is relatively short, in fact it's shorter than some of the other versions. Christopher says it is also the most finished, which, let's be honest, isn't saying a lot.
- [25:50]
B
Right.
- [25:51]
A
They're not the unfinished tales for nothing.
- [25:53]
B
That's true. That's true. It's very aptly titled. We begin with Tolkien noting what we've observed a few times already. Saruman is deeply jealous of Gandalf. That's abundantly clear. He seems to be the primary motivation for him for pretty much just about everything.
- [26:15]
A
He's like, completely driven by this obsession.
- [26:17]
B
Yes. With Gandalf in sports terms, we would. We would like, troll another fandom by saying that we live rent free in your head.
- [26:25]
A
Yeah.
- [26:26]
B
And that's how it is with Saruman and Gandalf. Gandalf's just living rent free in Saruman's head.
- [26:31]
A
And it's an awful place to be, but, yeah, it's. It's exactly free for him. The jealousy, of course, leads to hatred, and hatred leads to the dark side. I mean, wrong fandom, but it's true.
- [26:42]
B
Tolkien says that. Yeah, I believe that's. That's in one of the letters to the dark side. He expanded. That's in the expanded letters.
- [26:52]
A
It's the letters that we wrote, Matt. That's how it works.
- [26:55]
B
To suffering.
- [26:56]
A
That's right. But, yeah, the jealousy does lead to an absolute hatred of Gandalf, a hatred that Tolkien says is hidden. And that makes the hatred even deeper. Like it just keeps gnawing at him. And it's a bitter hatred because Saruman knows and, you know, he can't stand this. Like, he would never consciously admit this, but Saruman is aware that Gandalf is both stronger and more influential.
- [27:19]
B
Yeah. And the irony here, of course, is that Gandalf doesn't reveal his strength and doesn't look for fear or reverence.
- [27:27]
A
Exactly.
- [27:28]
B
Saruman is just petty, which is why he's awesome.
- [27:30]
A
That is exactly why he's awesome. Yeah. And that's the thing. Saruman doesn't even realize that one of the reasons Gandalf has more influence is because he's not seeking to have more influence.
- [27:39]
B
Right. And that's why he's trusted with things, and that's why people look to him because they know where his heart is and everything.
- [27:48]
A
He's not looking to be better than everybody else. You know, he's not looking to have power. He's not looking to Be feared. He's not even looking really to be respected, to be revered. He's just doing what he needs to do. This is his job. He was sent here along with Solomon, along with Radagast and then those other two, Philando and Alatar or whatever their names are. Because they also have other names.
- [28:13]
B
Marinar.
- [28:15]
A
Yeah, exactly.
- [28:16]
B
Blue 1 and Blue 2.
- [28:18]
A
Blue 1 and Blue 2, that's right. Their job was to come here and unite the Free Peoples against Sauron. And that's what Gandalf's doing. He's just doing his job. Saruman.
- [28:28]
B
Right.
- [28:28]
A
But Saruman hates him for it.
- [28:30]
B
He might try it sometimes.
- [28:32]
A
Exactly. I don't know. Just try being a decent person again one day. Maybe that'll work for you. But, yeah. You know, it's funny, because even though Gandalf doesn't look to be feared, doesn't look to be revered, Saruman is afraid of Gandalf. Kind of. Rightly so.
- [28:47]
B
Yeah.
- [28:48]
A
But he doesn't respect him in any way. He doesn't admire him at all. It's more like a fear of a thing that you despise and hate. But that fear, it comes from a lack of knowledge regarding Gandalf's perception. So Simon's afraid that Gandalf can see through him and knows what he's thinking. In other words, Gandalf knows that I'm already a bad guy. So maybe just stop being a bad guy.
- [29:16]
B
You're right. That's option one.
- [29:20]
A
It sort of creates a feedback loop for him, doesn't it?
- [29:22]
B
Yeah. Yeah. And it makes you wonder, like, you know, I feel like the Astari could have really used like, a sixth member who was just for conflict resolution. You know, they need.
- [29:35]
A
Like, I'm not here to help the people of Middle Earth. I'm here to help you guys.
- [29:39]
B
I'm here to help you help the people of Middle Earth.
- [29:44]
A
I'm a facilitator and an arbitrator, and that is my job while you guys go out and serve Middle Earth. Yeah, right.
- [29:51]
B
Like, surely, surely one of the other Maiar could have, like, filled that role. Like, what do you have to do that's so important over in Valinor? Like, come on.
- [30:00]
A
Well, Mandos, like, I'm a little busy because if I leave, Feanor's getting out of here.
- [30:04]
B
I mean, fair. Well, I'm talking just Maiar. It doesn't have to be one of the Valar. Like, come on. Yeah, I think.
- [30:11]
A
I think the Tulkas could. I mean, what's he got going on Morgoth's? You know, bound behind the doors of night. There's nobody for Tulkas to wrestle anymore, so. Well, other than.
- [30:22]
B
Well, I knew we were gonna do that. I knew exactly where your mind was gonna go.
- [30:29]
A
And Tulkas rested, being weary and content.
- [30:32]
B
Oh, gosh. Sorry, Jordan. Probably want to cut that one.
- [30:39]
A
Really? That's too bad. I thought that was great. All right.
- [30:41]
B
I don't know. I don't know. It's your podcast, so I'm going to leave that up to you.
- [30:47]
A
Nothing else. It'll be a good blooper. How's that? Oh, man.
- [30:52]
B
I could tell.
- [30:53]
A
Like, you can see it in my eyes.
- [30:55]
B
I feel like both of us were just like, okay, is one of us gonna say that? I was like. I was like. I know Alan's gonna say.
- [31:02]
A
If I don't say it, Alan will.
- [31:04]
B
Yeah.
- [31:05]
A
Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, you know, one of the Maiar should. Should come over and serve as sort of a. I think so, like, a family therapist, because really, just talk it out, man.
- [31:20]
B
Talk it out. Yeah. Like, could. Could they have, like, cleared the air and, like, I don't know, if Saruman
- [31:26]
A
would just have a fight, get it over with. Right? These are guys. Just throw down, and then afterwards you can hug it out.
- [31:32]
B
You know, throw a couple punches, and then you go get. Get a drink or. Yeah, I mean, Saruman, you know, he's interested in the pipe weed now. So, like, they both have that in common. That's a commonality.
- [31:42]
A
It is.
- [31:42]
B
That they can bond over.
- [31:44]
A
And yet, as we'll see, it's a commonality that Saruman just can't even conceive of allowing him to know about. Yeah, right. Oh, man. Saruman. Saruman, Saruman.
- [31:55]
B
Yeah, well, anyway, Saruman here, he does the same thing any petty co worker would do. Undermine him in front of others and dismiss his ideas.
- [32:05]
A
Oh, my gosh. I'm just seeing a Zoom meeting now with all of the Astari, and Saruman just, like, totally downplaying anything that Gandalf comes up with. Taking jabs, rolling his eyes every time Gandalf speaks.
- [32:17]
B
Yeah, but also we see here that he's also watching and thinking about every single thing that he said and did, even going as far as to have Gandalf followed and watched.
- [32:29]
A
Yeah, he's obsessed, right? I mean, that's what happens when you're afraid of something.
- [32:33]
B
Every step you take. You know? That's an old song.
- [32:38]
A
That's an old song. It's also a restraining order waiting to happen, frankly.
- [32:41]
B
It is. Yeah. It really is.
- [32:43]
A
So thanks to Saruman's paranoia and secret obsession with the target of his jealousy, he learns about the Hobbits in the Shire. And interestingly, of course, it's a place he would have otherwise ignored. I'm. I'm too wizardy for this Shire. You know, I'm, I'm. I'm too important for these little people. Clearly his sense of superiority, a false sense, I might add, would have kept him from ever even having an interest in it.
- [33:08]
B
And initially, Saruman didn't see any connection between the Hobbits and the Rings of Power, mostly because there wasn't one. Gandalf simply had a love for the little people.
- [33:20]
A
Yeah, he's always liked the underdog, so to speak. You know, and who wouldn't love the Hobbits, really? I mean, I've always. That question we ask people in the North Wing. Where would you. I would live in the shire. I would 100% live in a hobbit hole. Hang out with these little guys, eat five times a day, you know, fantastic.
- [33:40]
B
Which I think is by design, as part of the genius of Tolkien. It's like, it really is.
- [33:44]
A
Who wouldn't want to be a hog
- [33:45]
B
at the end of the day? Like, yes, it would be cool to go visit all these other places, but the most homely, peaceful existence is going to be in the shire.
- [33:53]
A
100%, yes. Yeah. But of course, during the conversation, Saruman is said to have smiled. And it's, it's sort of. You can see it, right?
- [34:01]
B
It's.
- [34:01]
A
He would smile as at the idle tales of an old Land Rover. So it's smug and condescending and dismissive. But of course, he's still taking very careful mental notes.
- [34:11]
B
Right? Yeah, it's one of those. Like, are. Are you done talking about the Halflings?
- [34:15]
A
You know, the Halflings again? I can't believe you're talking about that.
- [34:18]
B
And then meanwhile, in his head he's like, okay, so here's, here's.
- [34:22]
A
So how many new varieties of leaf are there again?
- [34:25]
B
Yeah, Long bottom leaf, Old Toby. Okay, got it, got it.
- [34:28]
A
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- [38:38]
B
That's right, like alliteration for one.
- [38:40]
A
You caught it. The Secret Sojourns of Saruman.
- [38:43]
B
Absolutely.
- [38:43]
A
If I could have called it the Sire instead of the Shire, I would have. But yeah, Charman Secret Sojourns. Well, that just sounds like Sean Connery.
- [38:50]
B
Sean Connery, welcome to the Rock. All right, but folks, the PPP really does have a warm and welcoming listener community. If you've got questions or just want to talk about how much you love Middle Earth, be sure to check out our common room on Facebook and across all social media on Facebook, just look for the Prancing Pony podcast. And yeah, there's a page, but you're going to want to join the group for that great fan community.
- [39:19]
A
Now on every social media platform other than Facebook, we are Prancing Ponypod. You can find our subreddit at R Prancingponypod. And please consider checking out my daily show, Today's Tolkien times on YouTube and all your favorite podcast apps. That's a place for where you can get your daily Middle Earth fix every day with everything from Middle Earth Map Mondays to Word Nerd Wednesdays. So be sure to watch or listen@YouTube.com prancing pony pod. Matt, there's nobody better to read about folly born of pride than you, I think. I'm kidding.
- [39:55]
B
That's one of the nicest things you've ever said.
- [39:59]
A
Actually, it is one of the nicest. No, that's terrible. All right, go ahead.
- [40:03]
B
All right.
- [40:03]
A
Read on.
- [40:04]
B
Let's get to the text here. Okay. Seeing then that Gandalf thought the Shire worth visiting Saruman himself visited it, but disguised and in the utmost secrecy until he had explored and noted all its ways and lands and thought. Then he had learned all there was to know of it. And even when it seemed to him no longer wise nor profitable to go thither he still had spies and servants that went in or kept an eye upon its borders, for he was still suspicious. He was himself so far fallen that he believed all others of the council had each their deep and far reaching policies for their own enhancement to which all that they did must in some way refer. So when, long after he learned something of the finding of Gollum's ring by the Halfling, he could believe only that Gandalf had known of this all the time. And this was his greatest grievance since all that concerned the rings he deemed his especial province. That Gandalf's mistrust of him was merited and just in no way lessened his anger. Yet in truth, Saruman's spying and great secrecy had not in the beginning any evil purpose but was no more than a folly born of pride. Small matters unworthy, it would seem to be reported, may yet prove of great moment ere the end. Now, truth to tell, observing Gandalf's love of the herb that he called pipe weed, for which he said, if for nothing else, the little people should be honored Saruman had affected to scoff at it, but in private he, he made trial of it and soon began to use it. And for this reason the Shire remained important to him. Yet he dreaded lest this should be discovered and his own mockery turned against him so that he would be laughed at for imitating Gandalf and scorned for doing so by stealth. And I couldn't help but just crack a smile at these last lines. They're so great.
- [42:19]
A
They really are. I mean, he's just beautiful. He's put himself in this awful situation because he's just so shallow and petty and he doesn't want to be seen liking anything that Gandalf likes. And so, because he's all doing it in secret. Oh, now it's even worse because it's secret. I'm going to be. I mean, right, dude?
- [42:39]
B
It kind of be like if you have that one friend who thinks, you know, justifiably that you're like a super big nerd for liking this Tolkien stuff.
- [42:47]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [42:48]
B
But then they secretly, they watch Lord of the Rings One day watch the movies and they're like, oh my gosh.
- [42:55]
A
But I can never tell them I
- [42:56]
B
like this, but I can't tell them because I've made fun of them so
- [43:00]
A
much and I have to keep it totally secret. If they find out I'm going to be mocked not only for liking it, but for having hidden it. It's just crazy. So coming back to the beginning of the passage, Saruman sees Gandalf's own interest in the Shire and obviously decides it's worth the visit. I mean, if this guy that I'm afraid of, who I know is more powerful than me and more influential than me, is interested in the Shire, maybe there's something that I need to be interested about. Right. So of course, because he's Saruman, he doesn't just go openly, he goes in secret. Because everything he does is like two faced.
- [43:35]
B
Yeah, Yeah, I, I love that because it's, it's just, it's just so Saruman.
- [43:42]
A
It really is.
- [43:44]
B
Now, his objective here was to gather intel to learn the land. And once he did, he figured he'd learned everything important that's also cyber.
- [43:52]
A
I know everything I need to know about this place. Everything there is to know.
- [43:56]
B
Yeah. But even though he didn't think it was really worth anything to go himself, he still kept eyes on the place.
- [44:04]
A
That's right. Not because he was still interested, just because he was simply suspicious. And I love this because the text really makes it clear. Now this is because he was already far fallen. Right? We talked about this, I think a couple weeks ago he figured that all the members of the council have their secret plans.
- [44:20]
B
Yeah.
- [44:20]
A
He never bothered to think that maybe they were just, I don't know, being honest.
- [44:26]
B
Right.
- [44:27]
A
It's such projection.
- [44:28]
B
I'm corrupt, so clearly everyone else must be corrupt as well.
- [44:31]
A
That's right. You can't fault the logic. But yeah, you can totally fault the logic. Yes. Yeah. I mean, internally it's consistent, but when you take it in contact, you're like, what a crazy thing to think.
- [44:44]
B
Yeah, yeah. And it does kind of, it kind of, in a twisted way maybe justifies his own action. It's like, well, if, if everyone else is corrupt right Then. Or you know, everyone else is out for themselves, so I should be out for myself too. And it's like, no, it's just you, dude.
- [45:02]
A
That's right. But everybody else is doing their job but you.
- [45:05]
B
Right?
- [45:06]
A
Yeah. Oh man. Like you said, they just need a sixth member of the club to serve as the workplace counselor.
- [45:14]
B
Yeah, I think that Was the missing piece there? So this leads him to thinking that Gandalf had known all along about the ring. Which really makes him mad since he saw himself as the Council's specialist on the Rings of Power. And you know, he's completely missing the point that Gandalf's lack of trust was actually for a good reason. He's really mad. Why doesn't he doesn't trust him. Even though he's completely untrustworthy.
- [45:42]
A
Even though I'm doing everything secretly, I'm lying about everything. Why doesn't he trust me? Now I'm mad. Yeah.
- [45:49]
B
How dare he not trust me. I've been so good at pretending to be trustworthy.
- [45:53]
A
That's right. You should at least believe how trustworthy I pretend to be. Going back to the beginning of his spying on the Shire, Tolkien explains it wasn't from any sort of evil purpose at that point. It was just a folly born of pride. Right. I mean, once again we come back and pride and jealousy are both so interrelated. I mean, they're really almost two sides of the same coin. Because you could only be jealous of somebody else because you're so proud that you can't accept that somebody else has that. You know what I mean? Like. Right. I think I've heard it described as sort of like pride is the root sin and jealousy is one of the fruits sins, you know, like so many things come from that root of pride and jealousy is one of them. Yeah. This wasn't like Saruman. Oh, I've found perhaps people that I could rule over, you know, and be the master of. It's more like I'm only spying on the Shire because I want the leaf, but I don't want anybody to know about. It's a folly born of pride. That's where we get to the heart of this week's episode which is that connection to piping weed.
- [46:58]
B
Yeah. And it's a small matter. Something that would otherwise be unworthy to be reported except that it becomes very important eventually.
- [47:07]
A
That's ex. Right? That's exactly right. And I love the way the narrator puts it here. Now, truth to tell, that little aside that sort of almost a nod to the reader did make me wonder. A question that I don't think we've talked about yet, and I don't know if it's answerable, is who is the narrator here? Who is that supposed to be? There are a lot of times where it's clearly, you know, Frodo writing down Gandalf's words or like in the first part of this chapter when it's the tale of the hunt for the Ring as told by Gandalf to Frodo. So therefore you know that Frodo is the narrator. Is that still the case? Because I don't know. I'm not convinced. Or is this Tolkien almost like doing a rough outline and changing the voice of the narration later once he figures out how that's going to work in the, in the meta narrative?
- [47:56]
B
Yeah, yeah. Because I mean, especially when we're talking about matters of like, internal thought process and, and feelings of Saruman, it's like how Frodo is not going to know.
- [48:11]
A
Even Gandalf, who's going to know that.
- [48:13]
B
Like, like this would be like an eru.
- [48:16]
A
Yeah, but no narrator. And Tolkien doesn't use an omnipotent narrator.
- [48:22]
B
Aside from, you know, we. We see in the Hobbit, we have. We have the narrator in the Hobbit, which is a whole nother ball game.
- [48:29]
A
Yeah, that's such a different voice.
- [48:30]
B
I think it's safe. Safe to say that that that's a unique situation.
- [48:34]
A
It's almost like the Princess Bride. It's. It's a narrator who is so present in the story because he, he says things that tie you into the modern world, you know. Well, you know, like, like you would have done with your friends if this had happened. You know, he has these asides to the reader that you're like, well, what? But, yeah, nothing like Lord of the Rings.
- [48:52]
B
Yeah, yeah. I think again, you know, we're dealing in unfinished tales and I think anytime we're outside of the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings, it's fairly safe to assume that it's not the final version necessarily that Tolkien would have published where stuff like this, you know, unless it was. It was published in a format where it's, you know, like an accompaniment. You know, you think, you think of how Christopher does with history of Middle Earth and things like that, where it's. Where it's outside of like a narrative
- [49:25]
A
where we're stepping out of that meta frame.
- [49:27]
B
Yeah.
- [49:28]
A
Because the only thing I can think of here would be if you were to add little bits like historians believe that this is why this person acted that way. Or, you know, Gandalf later says that, you know, Saruman's jealousy is likely what led him to this. Or, you know, so we get some
- [49:45]
B
say that blank, you know.
- [49:47]
A
Exactly. Yes. But right now it does feel like that omnipotent narrator, which is interesting because now, truth to tell, really did throw me for a Loop. That's an interesting little throwaway line.
- [49:59]
B
Yes. And again, that's where I think if Tolkien were to have fully fleshed this out to where he was publishing it, this is where we would see one of those phrases where it's like some say, or Gandalf believed, you know, XYZ about Saruman or you know, or it may be that.
- [50:21]
A
Yes, yeah, exactly.
- [50:23]
B
He. He loves to. And that's part of the amazing thing with Tolkien's writings and why it's. Why it can be looked at is like this history. We've talked about this many times where there's areas that are vague that make sense to be vague.
- [50:35]
A
Yes.
- [50:36]
B
Where it's the. Where we get the some say and like history records, you know, he leaves it vague. Where it's like you're the writer, you could just say XYZ happened. But he doesn't do that. And it's amazing.
- [50:48]
A
It really is. It gives it that internal consistency of reality really.
- [50:52]
B
So going back to the text here, Saruman noticed because he notices everything about Gandalf. Clearly that's true. That Gandalf really enjoys pipe weed. And you know, Gandalf even says that the hobbits should be to able honored for pipe weed even if they've contributed nothing else to the world.
- [51:10]
A
I love that the little people should be noted for this incredible accomplishment.
- [51:16]
B
Yes, yes.
- [51:17]
A
But like we read earlier, Saruman has to dismiss every single thing that Gandalf likes. He has to reject any counsel that he offers. So because of that, Saruman has put himself in a corner that now requires him to be contrary to Gandalf regardless. So even though he's publicly scoffing at Gandalf's love of tobacco, tobacco being pipe, we see. Last week he began to try it himself. Secretly of course, because he's Saruman. That's how he does everything. And that is why the Shire stayed on his radar. I'll tell you what though, as I'm reading this, it sounds like if Gandalf hadn't been a smoker, Saruman wouldn't have known about the Shire. He would not have been able to direct the Nazgul there. He wouldn't have controlled it via Lotho during the War of the Ring. He wouldn't have been there for the scouring. Really Like a big what if. What if Gandalf just, I don't know, use nicotine gum? It's like it's a bad habit.
- [52:17]
B
Yeah, well, I. Ironically, this made me think of the fact that when they were making the movies, they were Toying with the idea that Gandalf would be trying to quit smoking.
- [52:28]
A
Oh, yeah. Which is one of the few times where he coughs a lot, like, I should give this up sort of thing.
- [52:32]
B
And he. And he would. I think they said he would have, like, toffees or something. So he would be constantly, like, trying to replace smoking with, like, having.
- [52:40]
A
Yeah, a little candy or something.
- [52:42]
B
So, yeah, like this. This kind of goes hand in hand with that a little bit. Like, if Gandalf had a sweet tooth instead of being fond of pipe weed then maybe, maybe Saruman gets preoccupied with else altogether during. Yeah, maybe the. I don't know, the candy market of. Of Lake Town.
- [53:02]
A
Yeah, exactly.
- [53:03]
B
Wherever they went, right next to the
- [53:05]
A
toy market, the one that got burned down by Smile.
- [53:07]
B
Yes. Toys and candy. I mean, they go together. As someone whose entire identity is wrapped up in being better than Gandalf, in opposing everything Gandalf is for Saruman simply cannot risk this interest of his being found out. You know, not only would he be mocked he thinks for doing what Gandalf does he'd suffer even more contempt because he'd done it secretly.
- [53:34]
A
He makes things so much more complicated than they need to be.
- [53:37]
B
Right.
- [53:37]
A
You know, it would.
- [53:38]
B
It would just be simple, like, hey, Gandalf, I tried that pipe weed. Turns out you were onto something. This is great stuff.
- [53:43]
A
Broken clock is right twice a day, you know, I mean, he can still. He could have insult in there.
- [53:48]
B
He could. He could have got a backhanded compliment in there.
- [53:51]
A
So.
- [53:51]
B
Which would have been on brand.
- [53:53]
A
Totally on brand. Yeah, but he can't even do that. So then in the part that we skipped at the end we learned that it is his fear of being discovered that leads him to being all sneaky sneaky when it comes to the Shire. And it's also why he eventually stopped going in person. I mean, why bother walking for days to go shopping when you could just order online, right?
- [54:11]
B
That's a very relatable point. Yes. Turns out he'd been spotted by the Hobbits. And of course he had. They're very observant folks. They're sneaky themselves. And he was even mistaken for Gandalf.
- [54:26]
A
And that's funny. I mean, of course he was mistaken for Gandalf, right? I mean, he's an old man walking around the Shire wearing a robe and, you know, he's wearing gray or whatever. That's how the word got back to Gandalf, right? Hey, we saw this old man in gray sneak around the Shire, but then we didn't heard from you. Was that you like? No, but I know exactly who it is.
- [54:52]
B
Which makes it even funnier. The idea that Gandalf would know that Saruman was sneaking around the shop and like, keeping it a secret, but then Saruman being all freaked out about keeping
- [55:05]
A
the secret, even though the secrets are
- [55:07]
B
knowing the entire time.
- [55:09]
A
Yeah.
- [55:10]
B
The only other thing I could think is if, you know, it was a old man of like the. The Dunedine or something.
- [55:18]
A
An old ranger, you know, like, are
- [55:20]
B
you sure it was a gray cloak, like.
- [55:22]
A
Yeah.
- [55:22]
B
Are you sure?
- [55:23]
A
Maybe it was just a man from Bree looking out for new property.
- [55:26]
B
Oh, yeah, a man from Bree that. That had a few too many at the Prancing Pony, perhaps.
- [55:32]
A
And Prancing Pony is known for that?
- [55:34]
B
Yeah, Prancing Pony is known for that. You know, you get into those lore debates or something and then next thing you know you're wandering down the street.
- [55:43]
A
I know that there are people amongst our listeners who play a very dangerous drinking game when they listen to the show. It actually apparently takes place during our live episode recordings where when we do certain things, when I say something like, Sorry, Jordan, they ought to take a drink, or when I say, when we do some sort of digression or make a joke or whatever, I mean, it's dangerous, like it's. We don't recommend it.
- [56:06]
B
We recommend just thinking the number of Sorry Jordans alone when I'm on here
- [56:11]
A
for a live recording like that would explode anybody's liver.
- [56:14]
B
Yeah, I was gonna say I. They probably miss half the episode because they're.
- [56:18]
A
Because they're unconscious. Yeah.
- [56:20]
B
Yeah.
- [56:21]
A
Oh, man. Good stuff.
- [56:23]
B
Well, with that we've. We've got another reading here, Alan. Let's get back to the text. What do you say?
- [56:28]
A
After that, Solomon went no more to the Shire, fearing that such tales might spread and come maybe to the ears of Gandalf. But Gandalf knew of these visits and guessed their object. And he laughed, thinking this the most harmless of Saruman's secrets. But he said nothing to others, for it was never his wish that anyone should be put to shame. Nonetheless, he was not ill pleased when the visits of Saruman ceased, doubting him already, though he could not himself yet foresee that a time would come when Saruman's knowledge of the Shire would prove perilous and of the greatest service to the enemy, bringing victory to within a nail's breadth of his grasp. Christopher then does a very brief aside, giving us more detail on the pipe weed controversy when he says that in another version there is A description of the occasion when Solomon openly scoffed at Gandalf's use of the pipe weed. And this is something that many of you are familiar with, even if you've never read this passage because it's kind of made the rounds, is one of the. One of the things about pipe weed. And that's where we return to Tolkien's writing for the rest of this. Now, because of his dislike and fear in the later days, Solomon avoided Gandalf, and they seldom met except at the assemblies of the White Council. It was at the Great council held in 2851 that the halfling's leaf was first spoken of, and the matter was noted with amusement at the time, though it was afterwards remembered in a different light. The council met in Rivendell, and Gandalf sat apart, silent but smoking prodigiously, a thing he had never done before on such an occasion, while Saruman spoke against him and urged that, contrary to Gandalf's advice, Dol Guldur should not yet be molested. Both the silence and the smoke seemed greatly to annoy Saruman. And before the council dispersed, he said to Gandalf, when weighty matters are in debate, Mithrandir, I wonder a little that you should play with your toys of fire and smoke while others are in earnest speech. But Gandalf laughed and replied, you would not wonder if you used this herb yourself. You might find that smoke blown out cleared your mind of shadows within. Anyway, it gives patience to listen to error without anger. But it is not one of my toys. It is an art of the little people away in the west, merry and worthy folk, though not of much account, perhaps, in your high policies.
- [59:00]
B
Now, we're trying to break this episode down into a few readings, and that proved a little bit tricky. So this one actually starts by concluding the first section of text before we move on to something else. And in that last paragraph, we move to Gandalf's perspective.
- [59:16]
A
That's right. I mean, remember we were talking about what would have happened had Gandalf heard about the old man in gray wandering in the Shire around dusk? Well, it happened as we said, and Gandalf knew that Saruman had been there, and he had a pretty good guess as to the reason.
- [59:29]
B
Yeah, but Gandalf reacts entirely differently than Saruman had previously thought. He just laughs it off completely. Yeah, you know, it's a. It's a harmless secret. I mean, who really cares whether Saruman smokes pipe tobacco on a. I mean,
- [59:44]
A
really, this is like, do we care about people's Personal lives that deeply, we shouldn't maybe. I mean, Gandalf doesn't like. Whatever, man. You're not hurting anybody. Have a smoke.
- [59:56]
B
Yeah.
- [59:57]
A
So in a really clear illustration of who Gandalf is, and I love this because it's another way that really differentiates him from Saruman. He doesn't say anything to anybody about Saruman's pipe smoking or even his Shire visits. And the reason. The text gives us a very specific reason. And he didn't want anyone to be put to shame.
- [60:16]
B
Yeah. Gandalf is. He's just a good guy.
- [60:20]
A
He is.
- [60:20]
B
He's a good guy.
- [60:21]
A
And he just doesn't want anybody to suffer unnecessarily. Like, you know, that if it had been the other way around, Saruman would have absolutely berated him, been spreading rumors and then finally coming out with some sort of ironclad evidence against Gandalf to mock him.
- [60:36]
B
And he would have waited to bring it up at a White Council meeting or something to max embarrassment. Yeah.
- [60:43]
A
Yeah. And Gandalf's like.
- [60:45]
B
Gandalf's like, I don't want anybody to see that.
- [60:47]
A
Yeah.
- [60:47]
B
Yeah.
- [60:48]
A
I really like this. I think it's a very. This is one of those sort of. There's a lot of things that we can take from Tolkien, but I like this moment as sort of a. This might be a good way for you to live your life. Like, don't make such a big deal out of people's stuff. Yeah, yeah. As long as it's harmless.
- [61:07]
B
Yeah. Still, whether smoking is a harmless secret or not, Gandalf's happy to see Saruman stop his visits to the Shire because at this point, you know, he's already got doubts about. About Saruman.
- [61:19]
A
That's the thing. Like, he knows, or at least believes that Saruman's not a good guy anymore, but this isn't the reason why. So he's not going to make a big deal out of this. He's not going to say anything. But at that point, of course, even Gandalf could not have imagined what we talked about last section, that his interest in the Shire would become an existential threat to the Shire and almost give victory to Sauron. I mean, if Frodo had not left when he did, if he left the next morning, it's all over. The Lord of the Rings ends in the first chapter, right? We have a story about Bilbo's party and that's the end of it. And it's just Bilbo's birthday party and then the destruction of the Shire and then.
- [61:59]
B
And then Carnage.
- [62:00]
A
Yeah, that doesn't, that doesn't make for a good movie.
- [62:03]
B
No, it'd be an interesting short story, but yeah, not the iconic piece of literature that gets voted best of the century and all that.
- [62:12]
A
You could rewrite the Lord of the Rings as a. Choose your own adventure with like endings all the time. The ending of Frodo just chooses. Frodo has a cold and chooses to leave. The next morning, the Shire is destroyed. You know, or somebody says to Gandalf, why don't you take the eagles? Oh, it's a good idea. Story's end.
- [62:34]
B
No, I'm not letting you take that easy route. Don't, don't. Don't fool these good people into thinking the eagles are a vibe.
- [62:40]
A
I know. Don't even turn to page 137 and then the story, you know, end of the story. Oh, man.
- [62:46]
B
But it wouldn't have worked.
- [62:47]
A
No, it wouldn't have worked.
- [62:48]
B
It wouldn't have worked. That's a, that's a big. We won't get off on that tangent today, Eagle Taxi. Because.
- [62:52]
A
Not a thing.
- [62:54]
B
It would not work.
- [62:55]
A
A thing.
- [62:56]
B
And like Sauron's. Sauron's watching.
- [63:00]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [63:01]
B
He has winged creatures as well.
- [63:03]
A
Yes, he does.
- [63:04]
B
Yes. Okay.
- [63:05]
A
I mean, it's only nine. He's only got nine pilots, but you know.
- [63:09]
B
Right, well, yeah, that's true. But anyway, back to the text that we're talking about today. Yes, we should do that with, with that text ended the previous section. Christopher briefly introduces the next one. And in this one we get an explicit example of Saruman scoffing at Gandalf smoking. Even though he probably had a pouch full of it in his own bag at the time.
- [63:30]
A
Probably. He almost certainly did. Instead, we start this new text with a reminder of Sanoman's fear and hatred of Gandalf. Which means they don't just like, I don't know, get together and let's just say, record podcast episodes.
- [63:43]
B
That's right.
- [63:45]
A
They don't meet very often. Basically, they only get together when the White Council gets together because who's going to hang out with him, right? I mean, Simon doesn't want anything to do with Gandalf. Gandalf's like the less Saruman I see, the better. But speaking of council meetings, the text takes us back in time to the meeting in third age 2851. I want to put this on the timeline for you because I think it's important. We've talked before about how there's no connection between the Shire and The Ring. Yet there clearly isn't. This is 90 years before Bilbo even finds the ring. It's 150 years before Bilbo leaves the Shire. It's 167 years before the events of the War of the Ring.
- [64:20]
B
Yeah. And the text tells us that pipe weed was first mentioned at this particular council meeting. But that wasn't the only thing on the agenda. Believe it or not.
- [64:29]
A
It would have been an interesting council meeting. The only thing on the agenda.
- [64:33]
B
Why is this not an email?
- [64:35]
A
Exactly.
- [64:36]
B
The tale of years tells us that the White Council meets Gandalf urges an attack on. On Dol Guldur. Saruman overrules him. Saruman begins to search near the gladden fields. And as the footnote to that entry tells us, Saruman overruled Gandalf because he had then begun to desire to possess the One Ring himself and he hoped that it might reveal itself seeking its master if Sauron were let be for a time.
- [65:07]
A
That's dangerous. Yeah, he's gone from, like, wanting to study the Rings to wanting to possess the One Ring. That. And he's already turned when you realize how far in the past this is. 90 years before the Hobbit.
- [65:23]
B
Yes. Yeah.
- [65:25]
A
He's already gone. He wants the One Ring for himself.
- [65:30]
B
And that's one of the things that I think you lose to, to an extent with the books too, but definitely with the movies.
- [65:37]
A
Oh, yeah, yeah.
- [65:38]
B
Is. Is how long Saruman's been corrupt because you don't just breed an army of Uruk hai over the course of a
- [65:47]
A
week or two, presumably.
- [65:49]
B
Months.
- [65:49]
A
Like, I don't know how they would.
- [65:50]
B
Yeah, but yeah, I mean, you do know how they breed, though, because Tolkien tells us that's true. So.
- [65:55]
A
Yeah,
- [65:58]
B
you might not know the gestation period but you know enough to put two and two together.
- [66:03]
A
Yeah, exactly. And probably a few generations. If you're trying to breed.
- [66:08]
B
It's more than a couple months is what I'm saying. It's a considerable amount of time.
- [66:12]
A
It might be generations. Yeah.
- [66:14]
B
Yes. Yeah. It's a lot. It's a big process in a long time that he's been on the bad side.
- [66:21]
A
So we're brought into the council meeting itself for the rest of the passage, actually. Really the rest of the chapter as they met in Rivendell for this one, Gandalf not able to find the smoking section of the club sat apart out on the patio.
- [66:34]
B
It's very considered.
- [66:35]
A
It is. It is probably, you know, sitting upwind or. I'm sorry, downwind so that the smoke doesn't get blown back in. Yeah. And he smoked a lot. Prodigiously. The text telling us that he'd not done that at a meeting before. Matt, what do you think about that little ad that he's not done this before? Is it because he's never smoked before or that he's never smoked a lot?
- [66:57]
B
You know what I like to think is that it's like getting a little chuckle out of the fact that he knows that Saruman.
- [67:04]
A
That's the thing. That's exactly what I'm thinking. He knows that Saruman's doing it.
- [67:08]
B
Like, hey, it's like, hey, I've got this over here. Did you, did you want some? You guys sure, you know, you don't want some Saruman? How about you? Do you want to finally try this for the first time?
- [67:19]
A
Saruman Pretend for the first time. Yeah. So of course Saruman, as he always did because he speaks against all the councils of Gandalf, spoke against his advice regarding an attack on Dol Guldur. And this is hilarious because it gets under Saruman's skin that Gandalf just sits there like Gandalf doesn't respond and of course he's smoking. And it just makes me think of that, that whole sort of idea in negotiation that he who speaks first loses.
- [67:47]
B
Oh yeah.
- [67:47]
A
So you know, Saruman said his piece and Gandalf's just sitting there.
- [67:51]
B
I mean that's, that's where, that's where. See I always think, you know, you reference that and I'm not sure what it's originally from, but I know it's in the office where Michael Scott says I'm declining to speak first because they're both sitting there in silence.
- [68:06]
A
Yeah. Yeah, that is good stuff.
- [68:09]
B
Yeah, so we see. He, he basically gets snarky with Gandalf telling him that the grown ups are talking, stop playing with your toys.
- [68:18]
A
Which is rich coming from a guy who smokes on the side, plays with
- [68:23]
B
the toys in secret.
- [68:24]
A
Yeah, exactly.
- [68:24]
B
What is basically, you know, it's like if someone was making fun of you for Warhammer.
- [68:29]
A
Yeah.
- [68:30]
B
You know, like, oh, you pay Warhammer miniatures.
- [68:32]
A
You such a nerd.
- [68:34]
B
Such a little, little kid thing. You're playing with toys and then meanwhile they're like, you know, doing stop motion with action figures or something. It's like, you know, we're all playing with nerdy things.
- [68:45]
A
That's darn right we are.
- [68:46]
B
Yeah. But you know Gandalf though, he's, he's got some advice. You should try some.
- [68:51]
A
That's right.
- [68:51]
B
You know, it gives you clarity of mind, maybe even patience.
- [68:55]
A
I love that. Patience with error. Yeah, like you're bad advice, Saruman, but I'm not saying that. Yeah, so of course hearing him talk about it gives you clarity of mind and patience. And this kind of thing, it made me look up like, what are the. Because I've never been a smoker, so I don't know what the positive effects are. Yeah, I know what the negative effects are. It's lung cancer, emphasis. And whatever. Whatever the positive effects are, they're not enough to over to overweigh that. But apparently nicotine does stimulate the release of dopamine, serotonin and adrenaline. Research does show increased alertness, relaxation and even euphoria, which is interesting. Improved concentration in memory, which is apparently due to increased acetylcholine and norepinephrine neurotransmitters and reduced anxiety due to beta endorphins. Now that's interesting. I'm still not going to take up
- [69:49]
B
smoking, but this podcast brought to you by Marlboro Lights.
- [69:52]
A
Exactly, exactly. We're gonna have. The logo's gonna be in red and white with this sort of, you know.
- [69:59]
B
Right. Yeah. We're gonna have to put a disclaimer on this episode.
- [70:03]
A
No, I'm not, I'm. I'm definitely not advising anybody to take up nicotine in any form.
- [70:07]
B
Right. Don't forget, just to repeat, guys, at the beginning we talked about cancer and emphysema.
- [70:12]
A
That's right. That's right. And even if you found a way to take nicotine that doesn't involve the cancer and the emphysema, it's still very, very bad in the long term. It's deeply addictive. But it is interesting that he's describing the real world positive effects, especially clarity of mind that tobacco use can give you, along with lung cancer and emphysema. His lawyer has advised him to disclaim any responsibility for its creation or existence. This is not my fault. This is an addictive product. You shouldn't smoke it. If you do, that's your fault. No, I didn't make it. It is an art of the hobbits, the little people out west. And I love the final dig at the sense of superiority and smugness the. That Saruman always possesses. Those hobbits are happy and good people, even if you don't think they're important in your big schemes.
- [71:03]
B
Right? Oh, but how important they will be?
- [71:07]
A
Oh, I know how hugely important they're going to be. But that little dig might actually have been a step too far, as we'll find out after the break. It's time to bring on the blooms at the Home Depot with Spring Garden Deals. Find savings on hanging baskets and flowers to brighten your backyard or any space that needs instant color. Then get everything you need to plant and protect them, with low prices guaranteed on soil and mulch. Dig into Spring garden deals for four days at the Home Depot now through May 10th exclusion supply. See homedepot.com pricematch for details.
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B
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- [73:13]
A
You know, I just gotta say that Discord community is fantastic. These are the the best of the best when it comes to the people that listen to the show. It's a great place to hang out and you can get in there for really small amount. So please consider that. And also, you know, your support there is what enables me to do this full time from all of the shows, right? I mean I the amount of time that I spend on the Prancing Pony podcast, today's Tolkien Times, Rings of Power wrap up when Amazon decides to get their act together and my streaming show the PPP plays. When you join you can also get things like episode post scripts, you can get ad free episodes, you get free
- [73:48]
B
merch and more and you can join our Questions after Nightfall episodes or even appear as a guest in the north wing. Go to patreon.com prancingponypod to show your support and join the Fellowship of The podcast.
- [74:02]
A
Now don't forget to rate and review on Apple podcasts and Spotify, and please recommend us to your friends. Matt, tell us about the simples of peasants.
- [74:12]
B
Let's. Let's do. Do just that.
- [74:15]
A
I do love that phrase.
- [74:16]
B
I feel like I'm uniquely qualified to talk about simple peasants. All right. Saruman was little appeased by this answer, for he hated mockery, however gentle. And he then irony. And he said then coldly, you jest, Lord Mithrandir, as is your way. I know well enough that you have become a curious explorer of the small weeds, wild things and childish folk. Your time is your own to spend, if you have nothing worthier to do. And your friends, you may make as you please. But to me the days are too dark for wanderers tales, and I have no time for the simples of peasants.
- [75:09]
A
Sorry. I mean the irony and the. Just the dripping condescension, but continue. Sorry.
- [75:17]
B
Gandalf did not laugh again, and he did not answer. But looking keenly at Saruman, he drew on his pipe and sent out a great ring of smoke with many smaller rings that followed it. Then he put up his hand as if to grasp them, and they vanished. With that, he got up and left Saruman without another word. But Saruman stood for some time silent, and his face was dark with doubt and displeasure. And then we have Christopher here interjecting briefly, this story appears in half a dozen different manuscripts, and in one of them it is said that Saruman was suspicious. And now we're back to Tolkien's writings here doubting whether he had read rightly the purport of Gandalf's gesture with the Rings of Smoke. Above all, whether it showed any connection between the Halflings and the great matter of the Rings of Power, unlikely though that might seem. And doubting that one so great could concern himself with such a people as the Halflings for their own sake. Merely
- [76:25]
A
so much to talk about. Here, not surprisingly, we start the passage with a deeply offended Solomon. This guy can dish it out, but he cannot take it, can he?
- [76:35]
B
Nope, not at all.
- [76:37]
A
The text saying he hated mockery, however gentle, except for the mockery that he himself dished out. Right? I mean, yes. Come on, that was hardly mockery. It was a slight, tiny bit of sass. And you're the one who started it anyway, man.
- [76:51]
B
Right? So rich, he's the worst. So. So then Saruman gets cold and insulting, accusing Gandalf of exploring the small, which to Saruman also means useless or valueless, let's be clear here. And he Mentions weeds, wild things and childish folk. The first and the last references are obvious. Pipe weed and Hobbits. Yeah, but what about wild things?
- [77:17]
A
That is an interesting question. I don't know. I mean, weeds and childish folk. Yeah. The tobacco and the Hobbits. But what in the world are the wild things? I don't know. He draws a distinction between himself and Gandalf. That is, Saruman does. You do what you want to do if you don't have anything of more value to do because we are valuable, superior people. But I'm doing important work, right? The days are dark. Times call for. Well, no pointless stories and certainly no simples of peasants. What a phrase. I don't like Saruman, but I want to use that phrase somehow. Simples of peasants. Mostly because I like simples. I. I'm very like. Just simples. I'm great. I'm all about.
- [78:04]
B
That's why the Shire. So appealing. Exactly. The simple life.
- [78:08]
A
I just want to sit down and have a nice meal to eat and read a book. That's all I want. Simple life.
- [78:14]
B
Wonderful.
- [78:15]
A
Yeah.
- [78:15]
B
And Gandalf's response here is absolutely masterful. He doesn't laugh at Saruman. In fact, he doesn't even respond at all.
- [78:24]
A
No.
- [78:24]
B
And you know, after all, he wasn't asked a question. So, like, silence is a pretty good reply here.
- [78:30]
A
I think so.
- [78:31]
B
And instead, he just stares at Saruman inhales his pipe and blows out a set of smoke rings.
- [78:39]
A
I love this. And I think what's hilarious about this is that Saruman reads more into it than Gandalf meant. So let's talk first about what it is that he actually does. He blows the smoke rings. But they're not just rings. There's a great ring that he blows and then many smaller rings that followed. And then he reaches up to grab the rings and of course, they're smoke rings, so they disappear. I love the symbolism here. Yeah. But I have to ask. Is Gandalf being as bold as it would take him to be to make this accusation or at least implication here, this early again, 90 years before Bilbo even finds the One Ring?
- [79:18]
B
Right. I don't. I mean, that's. That's the way I took it. Like, especially with the One great ring and then a bunch of smaller rings and like, the idea of grasping for it but not getting it, you know?
- [79:29]
A
Yeah.
- [79:29]
B
It's like he's calling Saruman out. Like, you covet these things and you're grasping at smoke.
- [79:37]
A
Yeah. That's the thing. I mean, he's Saruman's looking for a connection to the Shire and there isn't one yet as we'll get to. But that suggests to me that Saruman's secret desire to possess the One Ring is something that Gandalf already knows about. No wonder Saruman is afraid that Gandalf can basically see right through him him. Because he can.
- [79:57]
B
Because he kind of can.
- [79:58]
A
He pretty much does. I know you smoke weed. I know you want the One Ring. You're never going to be able to get the One Ring because hoof reach up and it's nothing. It's not even there.
- [80:07]
B
Yeah. And I mean this, this is a time where the Ring is perceived as lost. And like yeah, there's doubts to where
- [80:15]
A
whether it roll down the endo into the sea. Could it even be found? Yeah.
- [80:20]
B
So I don't think he does something like this after Bilbo has found the ring.
- [80:25]
A
No, he almost, he doesn't want any attention.
- [80:29]
B
Definitely not. He's not playing this game. But he's you know, getting the subtlest of digs in here. And like oh and it, and it, and I, I, you could interpret it as like a warning almost like without words but like, like you're, you're playing a dangerous game here Saruman. Like and, and you, you're going after something that you can't have or you shouldn't have. You'll never have.
- [80:57]
A
It's so good.
- [80:58]
B
It's so great though. Oh my gosh.
- [81:00]
A
It's done with no words. It's done with just the symbolism and the metaphor and then walking away. And when he leaves Saruman is just standing there, possibly slack jawed but definitely with an unhappy look on his face. Yeah, I mean and he knows he's got to be thinking immediately, oh my gosh, does he know I want the One Ring? Is that what he's trying to tell me? Wait, is he trying to tell me something about the location? What? You know, his mind is just racing a thousand miles an hour trying to figure this out.
- [81:29]
B
And Christopher briefly interjects to tell us that this story is in a lot of manuscripts. Six of them.
- [81:35]
A
To be wild.
- [81:36]
B
So a. It's almost certainly something Tolkien would have included in any final version of this story. Yeah. But also be that in one of them the story continues. And we get that at the very end of this section of the text.
- [81:50]
A
I love that. So the idea that Gandalf does this, that there's a conversation about, you know, we're talking about important things. You should stop smoking. And, and he just, you know, Poof, poof, blows the Rings reaches up. That's so clearly something Tolkien was going to tell us in a story if you're going to figure out how to do it. But would he also have done this part? I don't know. We'll see. This is the part that's continued in one of them. Saruman doubts whether he'd understood Gandalf's meaning here. And I think he's right to doubt it because he's looking for is there a connection between the Hobbits and the Rings of Power? But look at the timeline, right?
- [82:29]
B
No. Yeah. And Saruman, he also refused to believe that even Gandalf, who remember he fears but does not respect, could have any reason to associate with hobbits just because of who they are. He, he'd have to have some big important reason. And maybe this is him projecting a little bit here.
- [82:51]
A
Yeah, I think you're absolutely right about the projection point there. Because remember, this is the guy who thinks everybody has secrets. Everybody else is keeping things from each other. He doesn't think he's the only one who's like this. He thinks everybody's like this. Like this.
- [83:04]
B
Yeah.
- [83:05]
A
And so he just assumes, well, I know I wouldn't be interested in these people for their own sake. So clearly Gandalf can't be interested. Clearly. Yes, clearly I cannot choose the Hobbit in front of you anyway. Right.
- [83:22]
B
I will say on a total side tangent.
- [83:26]
A
Wait, we don't welcome those here.
- [83:28]
B
I know, right? Yeah, it's very foreign concept here. I, I did play the Princess Bride a few weeks ago for my, for my family and I think my, my younger kids at least had never seen it and my 5 year old daughter was like glued to it. Oh yeah, she loved it.
- [83:43]
A
It's such a great.
- [83:44]
B
And like she's, she's not the best at like sitting down and watching a full movie without getting distracted and wanting
- [83:50]
A
to play and interrupt.
- [83:52]
B
But man, she like locked into that movie.
- [83:55]
A
That's so cool.
- [83:56]
B
In a way I was, I was like, this is, this is really fun.
- [83:58]
A
That's such a fun one.
- [84:00]
B
I figured you'd appreciate that. I definitely do fan that you are of that movie. But going back to the text, we'll get more clarity on all of this in a deleted section. That comes next. Alan, you want to take us away on that?
- [84:13]
A
I will indeed. It was a strange chance that being angered by his insolence, Gandalf chose this way of showing to Saruman his suspicions. That desire to possess them had begun to enter into his policies and his study of the lore of the rings and of warning him that they would elude him. For it cannot be doubted that Gandalf had as yet no thought that the Halflings, and still less their smoking, had any connection with the rings. If he had had any such thought, then certainly he would not have done then what he did. Yet later, when the Halflings did indeed become involved in this greatest matter, Solomon could believe only that Gandalf had known or foreknown this and had concealed the knowledge from him and from the Council for just such a purpose as Sodomon would conceive to gain possession and to forestall him. We then move to Christopher's comments on this, which conclude the chapter in the Tale of Years. The entry for 2851 refers to the meeting of the White Council in that year when Gandalf urged an attack on Dol Guldur but was overruled by Saruman, and a footnote to the entry reads, it afterwards became clear that Saruman had then begun to desire to possess the One Ring himself and hoped that it might reveal itself seeking its master if Sauron were let be for a time. And of course, he read that passage earlier. The foregoing story, Christopher explains, shows that Gandalf himself suspected Satoman of this at the time of The Council of 2851, though my father afterwards commented that it appears from Gandalf's story to the Council of Elrond of his meeting with Radagast, that he did not seriously suspect Saruman of treachery or of desiring the Ring for himself until he was imprisoned in Orthanc. And we'll get to that. There's something very interesting there. Like, yeah, if Gandalf suspected him in 2851, why was he heading over there in 3018? But we'll talk about that anyway.
- [86:20]
B
Yeah, we'll get there. Well, in the section that we skipped, Christopher has a very brief intro to the passage which explains that this next passage appeared in a different manuscript than the previous one. That's the one that we read about Saruman's doubts. He also notes that this passage was struck through, suggesting Tolkien would abandon this particular idea.
- [86:43]
A
It's still interesting to talk about. I mean, obviously he published it, so we're going to do that. Here we learn that Gandalf was not trying to indicate a connection between the Hobbits and the Rings of Power again, because there isn't one. Also, he wouldn't if there was. Right? There's no way he's Going to play those. Those cards. Instead, he was showing Solomon two things that he. Gandalf could see. That Saruman desired the rings. That's symbolized by his hand reaching for the smoke rings. And then of course, that this desire would never be met. That it would always be an impossible thing. That's the. The rings disappearing. Why do you think Matt Saruman didn't see just that as. As the message? Instead looking for a connection to the Shire, to the Hobbits.
- [87:26]
B
Because he's Saruman and because he's Gandalf.
- [87:30]
A
Couldn't be telling me that. I.
- [87:32]
B
Because he's kind of dense like that in the. And that he's always does no wrong. He's always. Yeah, he's always thinking that he's got the best ideas and everything. And everyone. You know, it goes back to that element of everyone else being obsessed with the Ring and like looking out for themselves the way he is.
- [87:54]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [87:55]
B
You know, that's his lens that he's. That everything is distorted through.
- [87:59]
A
Yeah.
- [87:59]
B
And I. I think he just. He can't even fathom the idea that this would be like a warning or a. You know, or something like that from Gandalf. Like, he can't conceive of that idea.
- [88:13]
A
And that's all it is. But he can't even imagine that that's what it is. He thinks it's a secret message of I have the knowledge of where the One Ring is.
- [88:21]
B
Right. Yeah. Like he's rubbing it in his face or something.
- [88:24]
A
Yeah.
- [88:25]
B
Right. When it's like, that's not. That's not the. That's not the alliteration of the alliteration. That's not the metaphor that's happening here.
- [88:32]
A
You're totally missing the symbolism here.
- [88:34]
B
This is the symbolism. Yes.
- [88:36]
A
Yeah. Like you said, he's just dense here. Yeah.
- [88:40]
B
Yeah. And as we've been pointing out since we reminded you, this story took place in 28:51. Gandalf couldn't have any thought about the Hobbits or the leaf would be connected with the Rings of Power. Like that's. That's not on the table here.
- [88:55]
A
No.
- [88:56]
B
And importantly, if he had thought or known about a connection he sure wouldn't have played his hand like that with Saruman. That would have been like, how extremely out of character.
- [89:06]
A
Yeah.
- [89:06]
B
Yes. Yeah.
- [89:07]
A
He would absolutely have played dumb. He would never mention the Ring. You know, like, the last thing he'd want is attention on the concept even. But Simon really held on to this moment because here we are in 28:51. Gandalf blowing the smoke rings and Simon trying to read a message. Bilbo and Frodo get involved with all this. So now we're talking about 3018. So we're talking about, you know, 150 years later. Saruman figures Gandalf knew even then. Or he foresaw it somehow. And not just that Gandalf knew but he kept that knowledge from himself and from the Council all because. And again he's just weaving these super complicated reasons. Oh, Gandalf must have known and he must have kept it secret from the council and he must have kept it secret because he was trying to delay me because he wanted the Ring for himself. I mean it's just, it's, it's funny in a way. Like how do you walk yourself down this road?
- [90:02]
B
I got. I gotta say it's a bit like how panic attacks and anxiety works though. Like you see, you see how like you make these. It snowballs on you.
- [90:14]
A
Does kind of thing. Yeah.
- [90:15]
B
You know, and it's a little bit like that I guess in, in a sense where it's like it's not the most logical.
- [90:22]
A
No, but logic isn't in the moment there. It's, it's right.
- [90:25]
B
Yeah. It's a. What it is, is, is like your, your greatest fears, your brain just starts
- [90:30]
A
running with these massive fears and thinking worst case scenario and it goes from
- [90:35]
B
one to the other to the other
- [90:36]
A
snowballing down the line.
- [90:37]
B
Yeah. And it snowballed.
- [90:38]
A
Yeah. But unlike Saruman it's, you know, folks who deal with that are the victims of that. Whereas Saruman is like his own worst enemy. Right.
- [90:50]
B
I'm not saying like, no, we should feel sorry for Saruman like this is. But I'm saying that the, you can see how the snowballing effect is happening with this the way it does. Yeah.
- [91:02]
A
And yeah, you know what? In a way that's exactly what's happening here. Because Saruman is afraid. Need. It's fear that's driving this. So. And yeah it's, it's. And of course Saruman thinks like, everybody thinks like he does. So that's the thing. Right. It's an echo of that earlier line we read. I don't know if this was last week or the week before. He was himself so far fallen that he believed all others of the council had each their deep and far reaching policies for their own enhancement. Of course, because he does. Therefore everybody else must too.
- [91:36]
B
Clearly. Yes. And then we wrap up with Christopher's explanation of this part of the story. As he points out to, you know, he points us to the Tale of Years and the footnote that we mentioned earlier, that Saruman had begun to want to possess the One Ring and he figured that delaying an attack on Dol Guldur might enable the ring to reveal itself.
- [91:58]
A
But would that be a good idea? Because if the ring is seeking for
- [92:01]
B
its master and his master's close by,
- [92:04]
A
his master's not far. And. And you find it, do you think it's going to stop looking for its master? Oh, I found a new master now.
- [92:13]
B
Yeah. No, yeah, no, it's not. Not quite that fickle of a ring. Yeah. But this story we just read proves that Gandalf already suspected Saruman of wanting the Ring all the way back in 2851.
- [92:28]
A
But I think that might be why it gets struck through. Because Tolkien himself, as Christopher explains, said later that based on Gandalf's story in the Council of Elrond about his encounter with Radagast, he did not suspect Saruman's treachery at that point. In fact, he didn't suspect him until he became imprisoned in Orthanc. And I think it would help us to kind of grasp that more fully if we actually take a look at the context. Let's go back to that moment in the Council. This is where Gandalf is telling the story of his meeting with Radagast. I turned then east and north and journeyed along the Greenway. And not far from Bree, I came upon a traveler sitting on a bank beside the road with his grazing horse beside him. It was Radagast the Brown, who at one time dwelt at Roscobel near the borders of Mirkwood. He is one of my order, but I had not seen him for many a year. Gandalf, he cried. I was seeking you, but I am a stranger in these parts. All I knew was that you might be found in a wild region with the uncouth name of Shire. Your information was correct, I said, but do not put it that way. If you meet any of the inhabitants, you are near the borders of the Shire now. And what do you want with me? It must be pressing. You are never a traveler unless driven by great need. I have an urgent errand, he said. My news is evil. Then he looked about him as if the hedges might have ears. Nazgul, he whispered. The Nine are abroad again. They've crossed the river secretly and are moving westward. They have taken the guise of riders in black. I love that that line in that exact phrasing gets used in the Film, Right. Yeah.
- [94:10]
B
Yes. Yeah. That is pretty fantastic. I think it's Saruman, actually, who. Who says that line in the.
- [94:16]
A
I think it is.
- [94:17]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [94:18]
A
He's the one telling Gandalf are abroad again. Yeah.
- [94:23]
B
Yes. And have crossed the Eisen on Midsummer's Eve. Yes.
- [94:29]
A
Which is exactly when they crossed it too, as we talked about the other episode. Well, in one of the stories, that's the night they crossed it. Because then they arrived the very next day. You're like, how did they get there so quickly?
- [94:40]
B
Very quickly. All right, well, the conversation that Gandalf is relaying continues. So we'll pick back up with that. I knew then what I had dreaded without knowing it. The enemy must have some great need or purpose, said Radagast. But what it is that makes him look to these distant and desolate parts, I cannot guess. What do you mean? Said I. I have been told that wherever they go the riders ask for news of a land called ship Shire. The Shire, I said. But my heart sank. For even the wise might fear to withstand the Nine when they are gathered together under their fell chieftain. A great king and sorcerer he was of old. And now he wields a deadly fear. Who told you? And who sent you? I asked. Saruman the White answered Radagast. And he told me to say that if you feel the need, he will help. But you must seek his aid at once or it will be too late. Mm.
- [95:48]
A
Saruman playing games? He's playing some 3D chess here. But finally Gandalf says, and that message brought me hope for Solomon the White is the greatest of my order. Radagast is, of course, a worthy wizard. A master of shapes and changes of hue. And he has much lore of herbs and beasts. And birds are especially his friends. But Saruman has long studied the arts of the enemy himself and thus we have often been able to forestall him. It was by the devices of Saruman that we drove him from Dor Guldur. It might be that he had found some weapons that would drive back the Nine. I will go to Saruman, I said. Then you must go now, said Radagast for I have wasted time in looking for you and the days are running short. I was told to find you before midsummer. And that is now here. Even if you set out from this spot, you will hardly reach him before the Nine discover the land they seek. So in the text is published in the actual canonical legendarium, if you want to call it that. It was only after that arrival to Isengard and The argument and then the imprisonment in Orthanc that Gandalf understood Saruman's treachery. But I've got a question for you. Is there a way we can reconcile what Tolkien wrote in that passage about Gandalf suspecting that he wanted the one Ring with this? Like, is there a difference, enough of a difference between the obsession with the Rings and full blown treachery? Or is it just the mere fact that he desired to have the ring 150 years ago is enough for Gandalf to not do this in the Lord of the Rings?
- [97:28]
B
It's very tricky. Like why. It's very hard to reconcile in my mind. Like if he. If he knew all the way back then that Saruman coveted the Rings, why would he go there to seek? He must have helped of any kind. Yeah. I feel like that's something you might have reservations, but not to the point where you think that they're gonna want. Like that's, that's just a recipe for betrayal.
- [97:55]
A
Exactly.
- [97:56]
B
You know.
- [97:56]
A
Yeah. If I think you're in doubt, I'm not gonna give you a chance to prove it, you know?
- [98:02]
B
Right. Yeah. Not to. Not to that extent.
- [98:07]
A
No. I mean, maybe if I could bring Galadriel and Celeborn with me and Elrond and we all show up.
- [98:11]
B
Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [98:13]
A
An impromptu White Council meeting, right? Yes.
- [98:19]
B
Like, oh, these guys. Oh, we were just hanging out.
- [98:21]
A
That's what.
- [98:22]
B
Swing on by.
- [98:23]
A
There's a local Starbucks down the road. We just had a coffee and now we're. We just thought we'd stop by and say hi.
- [98:28]
B
Say hi. See how things are going with you.
- [98:31]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [98:32]
B
Because I. I don't know what would be like what, what gain would be worth that risk?
- [98:37]
A
Exactly. What are you. You're not going to find out. In fact, if anything you need to go to the Shire because that's where you're needed more than. Than to Sarahman. If you. Right.
- [98:46]
B
Yeah.
- [98:46]
A
If you doubt.
- [98:48]
B
Yeah.
- [98:48]
A
And you already know that Saruman has gone to the Shire and is interested at least. I mean, that's bad.
- [98:53]
B
Yeah.
- [98:54]
A
Yeah.
- [98:54]
B
And even like the, the movie version of this would make it slightly more understandable because he doesn't meet Radagast.
- [99:02]
A
Right.
- [99:03]
B
And doesn't have the knowledge of the Nazgul. But in the book, especially here, you know, we're, we're looking at this and Radagast straight up tells him about the Nazgul. So there's really nothing more that he needs to know from Saruman. He just needs to go back if he suspects him. Yeah, he would just. If he's like, oh, I don't know. I. I would. I would get bad vibes from that. And then I would. I would immediately go to the show,
- [99:28]
A
just have this meeting via, you know, Osanwe. You know, I'll just ring you up.
- [99:34]
B
There we go. Yeah, I'll re. I'll get to Rivendell. We'll ring you up, you know, we'll have a group chat. We'll get. We'll get a group chat. We'll get Galadriel. Here's the Zoom conference call. Yeah.
- [99:46]
A
All right. Well, it cannot be doubted that Barliman had, as yet, no thought that the Halflings, and still less their smoking, had any connection with the mailbag. Matt, what does Barliman have in his bag for us today?
- [99:58]
B
Barliman has a letter here from Alice, and Alice says, so about this Stephen Colbert Lord of the Rings movie.
- [100:09]
A
Of course. Of course, we were gonna discuss.
- [100:11]
B
This has been big news. Yeah, I can't. I'm not surprised because this has been big news. So Alice says, what should we expect from this? Is this a good idea for a movie?
- [100:21]
A
Ooh, is this a good idea for the movie? Well, we should. For folks who haven't been listening, what's the synopsis?
- [100:28]
B
Yeah, if there's folks who have not heard the news about this, basically, Stephen Colbert is co writing with both his son and Philippa Boyens. This would be the movie that would come after the Hunt for Gollum. So Hunt for Gollum is the next Lord of the Rings movie.
- [100:48]
A
What, Christmas of 27?
- [100:49]
B
2027, yes.
- [100:51]
A
So year and a half.
- [100:51]
B
So this one, we haven't had a date or anything.
- [100:54]
A
Probably five years at least. Right. I mean, if we're talking about. Yeah, probably a year and a half just to hunt for Gollum. I can't imagine this one coming out more than. Less than three years after that.
- [101:05]
B
Yeah, it would have to be, you know, presumably 2029, maybe. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, because especially it depends on, you know, how much they can stagger, like the crews.
- [101:17]
A
Oh, that's true.
- [101:17]
B
That's true. You know, you know, they could probably do some staggering if I don't know who's going to direct. They haven't said, like, Iser is also going to do this one. Is it going to be someone else? But basically, the title, the working title is Shadow of the Past. So it's basically gonna highlight those chapters that were left out of the Fellowship of the Ring film adaptation. Specifically, they mentioned chapters three through eight. So that's three is company Shortcut to Mushrooms, Conspiracy Unmasked, the Old Forest in the House of Tom Bombadil and Fog on the Barrow Downs. Now, you know, we've, we've got bits and pieces from some of those chapters in there. So I don't think they'll necessarily.
- [102:02]
A
Tiny bits on Shortcuts of mushrooms. Like a second. Yeah.
- [102:06]
B
Yes, It'll be interesting to see, you know, because the extended edition of Two Towers, there's some really interesting specific cases where Extended Two Towers has Treebeard saving Marion Pippin from a live tree. Just like Tom Bombadil saves them in the book. So will they do that again? I don't know. It'll be interesting to.
- [102:26]
A
But this is. So this is going to be like Farmer Maggot. This is going to be Tom Bombadil, Goldberry and the, the Barrow Downs. We're gonna get some Fatty Bulger. Maybe we might even get the Bath Song.
- [102:40]
B
Yeah.
- [102:41]
A
Okay.
- [102:41]
B
And I'll. There's, there's a little bit of a synopsis here. So it says it's set 14 years and this is the interesting framing part. It is set 14 years after Frodo Sales West. So.
- [102:56]
A
Okay, so are they doing this in a. Yeah, like the, the, the epilogue. The unpublished epilogue where Sam and Eleanor are like, you know, working on the story. Yes.
- [103:06]
B
Yeah. Because it, and it does bring up Eleanor. I'll go ahead and read the rest of this for you. So Sam, Mary and Pippin set out to retrace the first steps of their adventure. Meanwhile, Sam's daughter Eleanor has discovered a long buried secret and is determined to uncover why the War of the Ring was nearly lost before it even began. So that's what we've got as far as a description right now for Lord of the Rings, Shadow of the Past. And that of course is, is chapter two of, that's the title of chapter two of the Lord of the Rings where Gandalf gives Frodo the lowdown.
- [103:45]
A
Right.
- [103:46]
B
On, on the Ring and everything. So yeah, it sounds like this, this will be a framing device, so to speak, or a unique way to get those chapters. That's what I'm not 100% sure. Like, are we going to see actual flashbacks that imply, okay, this, this was part of the story that wasn't in the films originally. So are we going to get maybe newly casted Sam, Marion Pippin, like younger versions? Like we're getting Aragorn for Hunt for Gollum.
- [104:16]
A
Yeah.
- [104:17]
B
Or will the entirety of this be 14 years after? And, and they're Just kind of like reliving bits of it, but not actually showing the past. I. Yeah, I'm just really curious to see how much. How much of this is, you know, okay, this happened, but you didn't see it in Fellowship versus this is stuff happening right now to, like, the Hobbits and Eleanor.
- [104:41]
A
That's interesting. I. If it's told as a flashback and we get Eleanor, you know, kind of playing a role. I like that idea. This is interesting. What. What should we think? Truth be told, I am going back to earlier in this episode. Right. Truth to tell, I have been burned a little bit with my optimism over the last few years, as you and I have spoken about a few times. I was deeply optimistic about Amazon's Rings of Power, and in some cases, I've been proved right. There's some great elements to that show, but there are some that are less than great. And so I've probably become a little more skeptical, not cynical yet. I think I've avoided cynicism.
- [105:25]
B
Well, that's good. That's good.
- [105:26]
A
I. I think what I am now is hopeful rather than optimistic, if that makes sense.
- [105:31]
B
Yeah.
- [105:32]
A
I'm not expecting anything.
- [105:34]
B
Yeah.
- [105:34]
A
But I am hoping for good. And I. There is a part of me that thinks if there's anybody who I can count on to be relatively faithful to the lore, it's going to be somebody like Stephen Colbert.
- [105:45]
B
Right. Who. Who clearly has.
- [105:47]
A
He does have a knowledge.
- [105:48]
B
Knowledge of it and. Yeah. And has a deep appreciation for it.
- [105:52]
A
Yeah.
- [105:54]
B
I. One of the things. And I said this. I did a stream on this news. I'll give a shout out again to John Campy is one that I listened to his podcast on movie news from time to time, and they have this great vibe where it's like a handful of friends who are just talking about movies and stuff, and they have really good outlook on a lot of stuff. And he brought up the point that this was born out of Stephen Colbert having this idea for a movie and essentially pitching it to Peter Jackson and all those folks. So having that as the seed to all this, that this is coming from a place of his passion for these specific chapters is encouraging. And I totally understand, you know, looking folks who will look at this and say, who. Who maybe are frustrated that we're getting these adaptations that are so close to the Lord of the Rings timeline, because I do think there's a lot of great stories in the appendices.
- [106:58]
A
You and I have talked about that before. I want. We've talked about Kingdom of Arnor and the Split into the. The. The. The three other kingdoms and the death of Arvedui. I mean, all of that, just fantastic.
- [107:09]
B
Yeah, there's some great. Like, like, yeah, gosh, the Angmar War. There's a. There's a Kurosara movie called Ran, and. Oh, yeah, it's about. It's basically this kingdom where three sons split the kingdom among themselves and, like, all out war breaks out. But that's a. That's an aside. But, like, there's a great drama in that film. There's just great drama in that Angmar war story in particular that I really want to see. So I. I understand where some folks, where some fans come from, where they get frustrated that we're doing, you know, these. These movies are so close to Lord of the Rings timeline, but I also think if you're ever going to use those original characters with the original actors, now is the time to do it. Like, you kind of have to do it now. If you want Ian McKellen to be Gandalf again, if you want Dominic Monahan and Billy Boyd and Sean Aston to be those hobbits again, you kind of have to do it right now.
- [108:05]
A
Yeah, you really do.
- [108:06]
B
And like I said, I'm encouraged by the fact that this seems to, at least from everything we're being communicated, to have been born out of Stephen Colbert's love of these chapters and not a. Okay, what can we scrape together? What can we get these actors for? Let's come up with a story for this set of actors and then we'll come up with a story for this set of actors to bring back. It doesn't seem like that's the case.
- [108:32]
A
No. And, you know, yeah, yeah, we'll see what they do. I. If it's Eleanor, then obviously we need to see Sam. Are we going to see the other three? I mean, I know Elijah Wood has already said he doesn't want anybody else to play Frodo except him, unless he's basically dead.
- [108:48]
B
Right. Well, this is. And this is after Frodo sailed west,
- [108:51]
A
so he has to be gone. Yeah, you're right. He has to be gone. But Marion Pippen could still be around. I mean, Pippin would be the Thane and Mary will be the master of be.
- [109:00]
B
I mean, it'd be kind of cool to see. See them as like leaders in the Shire a little bit, you know, and
- [109:05]
A
to see them as older, which this could do.
- [109:07]
B
Right.
- [109:07]
A
So we wouldn't have to try the stupid AI de Aging stuff.
- [109:10]
B
Yeah, I'm not a big fan of that.
- [109:12]
A
I'm not either. It's. It never does. Never. Never works.
- [109:15]
B
No pun intended. But it ages very poorly.
- [109:17]
A
It ages the film. Yeah, exactly.
- [109:19]
B
Yeah. Like the effects are outdated very quickly. You. You mentioned the unpublished epilogue with Eleanor and Sam, and it's one of the sweetest interchanges.
- [109:31]
A
I love that.
- [109:32]
B
Such a great, great chapter.
- [109:34]
A
And those of you who want to know more about that, by the way, Don Marshall and I covered that at the very beginning of last season. So if you, if you go back to the start of season nine, we covered that epilogue in episodes 341 and 342. Definitely worth a listen. That's.
- [109:49]
B
Yeah. So if. If they can capture some of that vibe, you know, and that sweetness and that wholesome father daughter relationship between the two of them, that would be pretty fantastic. I think so. And then, I mean, let's not bury the lead too much here. Tom Bombadil.
- [110:08]
A
Tom Bombadil. Huge risk, huge reward. Right?
- [110:12]
B
I mean, I think. But. But at this point. Okay, so we got the Rings of Power version of Tom Bombadil, which I. I felt was too muted.
- [110:20]
A
Yeah.
- [110:21]
B
And way too muted. I want someone to go full Tom.
- [110:25]
A
Full Tom.
- [110:25]
B
That's how I said it to be. I want full Tom.
- [110:28]
A
Always speaking in trochaic tetrameter. Yeah, that would be pretty awesome, man.
- [110:32]
B
Or at least like, you know, the goofiness level. Like, just the silliness. Yeah, just the, the silliness of him and the, you know, the bizarre nature of that character and like, what he is. And just, just there's a comedy to him and to the way the hobbits, you know, experience get the Tom Bombadil experience. Like, I just think. I just think it could be dialed up to a much higher number than we got in Rings of Power.
- [111:00]
A
It could be. It could be. And I would love to see Farmer Maggot. I would love to see the Barrows. I'm looking at the timeline real quick. I glanced over at the Tale of Years, and if you said it's 14 years after. So that would be Shire Reckoning, 1433. So Mary would have been Master Buckland for one year. Peregrine will become the Thane the next year. And that's also the year where Sam gets reelected mayor for the second time. Two years after that. So three years after this story, they could include this. King Elessar rides north and dwells for a while by Lake Evendim. He comes to the Brandywine Bridge and there greets his friends. He gives the star the Dunedain to Master Samwise and Eleanor is made a maid of honor to Queen Arwen. That could be interesting. I would absolutely dig on that.
- [111:53]
B
Could you imagine, like, I know we're getting a younger Aragorn for Hunt for Gollum, but could you imagine older Vigo?
- [112:00]
A
Older Vigo is King Elessar, who would.
- [112:03]
B
Yeah.
- [112:03]
A
Just to show up for, like, 10 minutes to. And. And even an older Arwen. I mean, Liv Tider still looks like she could be a really beautiful Elven woman.
- [112:16]
B
Yeah.
- [112:16]
A
So have them show up. Not dea.
- [112:18]
B
A lot of those elves have not aged.
- [112:21]
A
Yeah. They were properly cast as elves, weren't they?
- [112:23]
B
Yes. Yeah.
- [112:24]
A
I'm looking at that timeline, and I know this is unlikely, but I would almost want to see the epilogue to that film 50 years later when Rose passes and Sam. And Sam heads west.
- [112:38]
B
That could be.
- [112:39]
A
Man, I can feel the tears coming already.
- [112:41]
B
Right, yeah, do that.
- [112:43]
A
Do that. And I will be very happy.
- [112:46]
B
Yeah. I don't know if there'll be, like, neither of these films, but especially this one. I don't know that the action will be all that heavy. It feels like a smaller story.
- [112:58]
A
The threat of the Barrows is a long section and a terrifying.
- [113:01]
B
The Barrow Downs, I think, will be the big. The big, you know, scary action is
- [113:06]
A
he's only focusing on the chapters that were left out of Fellowship. So that means we're not. Yeah, I mean, because otherwise you could do a whole sequel type film on the Scouring, but that would require de. Aging the actors. So I don't.
- [113:18]
B
Well, and that would be. And that would also be a retcon, because it's. It's very clearly.
- [113:24]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [113:25]
B
This. The Scouring does not happen.
- [113:26]
A
It just doesn't happen in this universe. Yeah, right. Right.
- [113:28]
B
Whereas, you know, one. And one of the things. Because I interviewed Philippa once and we talked about the Tom Bombadil stuff, and she said how, you know, they kind of purposely did it where it's like, it's not impossible that it happened. You just don't see it happen. Like, you know, you see them meet up with Mary and Pippin and then they're on their way to the fair. Like, who knows what happens? Like, when the camera cut away.
- [113:55]
A
They could have talked to Farmer Maggot in the meantime and they could have. Yeah, there's all sorts of things that aren't, you know, like, contradicted, but they're not shown either. Yeah, right.
- [114:04]
B
Yeah, that's fair.
- [114:05]
A
Fun question. I am still only hopeful, not optimistic yet, but maybe I'll have some reasons to be optimistic in the future. We'll see.
- [114:13]
B
And I will note another. Another little short tidbit that I just saw. News today is that the Legend of Zelda movies is filming in New Zealand, specifically in the Otago region, which is where Isengard and the Fort of Bruinen were filmed.
- [114:29]
A
Okay.
- [114:29]
B
So if you're a Zelda fan, there might be some familiar scenery from the Lord of the Rings.
- [114:35]
A
Very cool, folks. Thank you for joining us for another episode of the Prancing Pony podcast. Please come back again next week when Dawn Marshall joins me here in the common room and we look at one of my favorite chapters of Unfinished Tales, the Disaster of the Gladden Fields. Matt, thank you again, man, for joining me this season. It's always fun, even if it was a short run this time around. It was a lot of fun. I am excited beyond words to have you come back with me to cover the Children of Hurin either next season or the season after. That's going to be great.
- [115:04]
B
Absolutely. Yeah. I've made it no secret that I am a huge fan of Children of Hurin. And so we've talked about this for many years now. At this point, folks, like, it's, it's been in the distance and it's exciting that it's getting closer and closer by the day.
- [115:23]
A
You call dibs on it.
- [115:24]
B
Really fun one. Yes. I was like. Well, I was like, whenever you get to Children of Hur, and man, I am. I'm all about it more. That's a whole room.
- [115:32]
A
You know, that's a whole.
- [115:33]
B
It is a whole book. I am well aware. It's a whole book.
- [115:36]
A
Good.
- [115:36]
B
And it's. And the audiobook, folks, if you're following along with us, is narrated by Christopher freaking Lee is so good. It does not get any better than that.
- [115:46]
A
It really doesn't.
- [115:47]
B
It's. It's gonna be fun.
- [115:48]
A
It will be.
- [115:48]
B
Folks, Alan and I want to thank the members of team ppp as always, editor Jordan Rannells, Barliman, Becca Davis, social media manager Casey Hilsey event and Patreon community coordinator Katie McKenna, graphic artist Megan Collins, video editor Yana Ton Lacens, and website guru Phil Dean.
- [116:08]
A
Please take a minute to chat out the prancingponypodcast.com that is where you'll find show notes, outtakes, prancing pony ponderings, and our fully revamped PPP merch store. Now, that storefront is where you can get all sorts of cool PPP merch, including the incredible chapter art that Megan's been doing for us. Dude, the Hunt for the Ring art off the hook. Great stuff.
- [116:29]
B
We're all about the books here at the Prancing Pony Podcast, so be sure to visit our library page. We try to to make sure any book we've mentioned on the show is linked there. And we do get a small amount of compensation when you make your purchase. So thank you for that.
- [116:43]
A
Indeed. Thank you. And we also want to thank our patrons at the Kirdance contribution tier. I'll start with Demay in Alaska, Chad in Texas, Joseph in Michigan, Kathy from North Carolina, Brian in the uk, Jerry from Washington, Irwin from the Netherlands, Ben in Minnesota, Anthony in Texas, Sach, sue in Illinois, Joshua in Massachusetts, Lucy in Texas, Erica in Texas, James in Massachusetts, Ann in Kentucky, and Sean in New Jersey.
- [117:10]
B
There's also Mason in California, Maureen from Massachusetts, Olivia in London, Robert in Arizona, Nick in Wisconsin, Lewis in South Carolina, Thomas in Germany, Craig in California, Kevin in Massachusetts, Joe in Maryland, D. Scott in California, Jeffrey in Michigan, Paul in Colorado, David from Connecticut, and Teresa from Texas. Thank you all so very much for your support.
- [117:35]
A
Thank you.
- [117:36]
B
Make sure you don't miss any episodes of the Prancing Pony Podcast. Subscribe now through Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or your favorite podcast app.
- [117:45]
A
And one last thing. As always, don't forget to send your thoughts, comments, and most of all, your undiscovered manuscripts explaining why the Nazgul are afraid of water to Barliman at theprancingponypodcast.com
- [117:57]
B
Barlaman does have a lot of mail to sort through though, so we'll try to get to you just as soon as we're able.
- [118:02]
A
As always, this has been far too short a time to spend among such excellent and admirable listeners and a pretty good co host as well. But until next time, this is the end.
- [118:12]
B
We are going. We are leaving now. Goodbye.
- [118:17]
A
It.