413 – The Unforgettable Fire

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Prancing Pony Podcast

Episode 413 – The Unforgettable Fire

Release Date: May 17, 2026
Hosts: Alan Sisto & Don Marshall ("The Obscure Lord of the Rings Facts Guy")

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Main Theme & Purpose

This episode launches a detailed two-part exploration of the Disaster of the Gladden Fields from Tolkien's Unfinished Tales. Alan Sisto is joined by returning co-host Don Marshall to discuss Isildur's fateful journey after the War of the Last Alliance, unpacking the narrative's background, its tragic events, lore minutiae, and thematic resonance. The episode is rich with Tolkien scholarship, friendly banter, and earnest speculation, all in the familiar, welcoming style synonymous with The Prancing Pony Podcast.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Catching Up With Don Marshall

Timestamps: [03:33]–[16:16]

• Don reflects on becoming an author (J.R.R. Tolkien: The Father of Modern Fantasy), admitting to initial fears but ultimately relishing the opportunity to blend his love for Tolkien with biographical writing.
• Don reveals the upcoming release of his next book, Facts of the Fellowship, due October 6, 2026.

  “They asked me to write a second one, which I am thrilled to announce is titled Facts of the Fellowship…” (Don, [06:54])

• The new book is structured as a “vignette” collection, companionable both to the films and Tolkien’s original writings, designed to spark further exploration of Tolkien's legendarium.
• Discussion about Don’s evolving projects, his TTRPG ventures (temporarily on hold, returning end of 2026), social media presence, and anticipation for new Magic: The Gathering Hobbit cards.
• Extended musings on “filling in the blanks” in upcoming Tolkien film adaptations, with special interest in characters like Tom Bombadil and possible risks in storytelling:

  “I want this to be the Rogue One of the Star Wars story…” (Don, [15:13])

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2. Setting the Stage: Isildur After the War

Timestamps: [19:22]–[47:55]

• Alan opens with a reading from Unfinished Tales detailing Isildur’s return to Gondor, assuming the Elendilmir, and his role as High King over Arnor and Gondor.
• Don and Alan review Isildur’s activities post-war: restoring order in Gondor, mentoring nephew Meneldil, and commemorating his father Elendil at Amon Anwar (Halifirien).
• Noteworthy is the solemnity and trauma Isildur experienced—not just the mantle of leadership, but the burden of loss (his brother and father killed in the war).
• A detailed sidebar (with characteristic word nerdery) on the geography and logistics of Isildur’s northward journey—distances, routes, and supply planning (and why he travels with only baggage horses).
• Discussion about the practicalities and limitations of Numenorean cavalry, referencing both textual evidence and interpretations of military logistics.

  “Roman legions typically required two to three pounds of food… that’s 16,000 pounds for 40 days!” (Alan, [39:00])

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3. Journey to Disaster: Approaching the Gladden Fields

Timestamps: [51:08]–[61:34]

• Breakdown of Isildur’s company: his three sons (Elendur, Aratan, Cirion), 200 soldiers, and the youngest son Valandil (left in Rivendell).
• The dense narrative covers weather hardships, detours to avoid a swollen Anduin, and travel through ancient Silvan elf paths.
• Lore nerds will enjoy the word origins and Sindarin etymologies of place-names (e.g., Cirith Forn en Andrath = “The High Climbing Pass of the North”).
• The reading captures the mood shift: the company, three-quarters through the journey, sings as they march.

  “The Dunedain were singing, for their day’s march was near its end…” (Narration, [60:09])

• Alan marvels at this “elvish” trait:

  “That connects them to the elves… I love that they’re singing…” (Alan, [61:04])

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4. The Ambush: Battle at the Gladden Fields

Timestamps: [62:16]–[78:45]

• Sudden Orc ambush from the eaves of Greenwood; Isildur is severely outnumbered (up to 10:1), with estimates of over 2,000 Orcs.
• Alan and Don analyze the tactical response: Isildur forms a thangail (shield wall), using familiar historical strategies (parallels to Germanic and Roman formations), complete with Tolkien’s meticulous word nerdery.
• Isildur, sensing doom, dispatches his esquire (Okhtar) to safeguard the shards of Narsil:

  “I give this now into your keeping... Save it from capture by all means...” (Isildur, [62:16])

• A heroic defense repels the first Orc assault (“…leaving piles of fallen Orcs”).
• Discussion of the fateful limitations of Numenorean archers—fewer than 20 steel-bowed archers were present (contrary to expectation for such a journey).
• The Orcs, stiffened by Sauron's elite servants and driven by the residual will of the Ring, regroup to encircle the Dunedain in a “crescent” then “ring” formation ([83:07]).
• Moving father-son dialogue: Elendur pleads with Isildur to use the Ring; Isildur confesses its corrupting pain and his failure to bend it to his will:

  “Alas, it is not, Khenia. I cannot use it. I dread the pain of touching it, and I have not yet found the strength to bend it to my will. It needs one greater than I now know myself to be. My pride has fallen. It should go to the Keepers of the Three.” (Isildur, [84:49])

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5. Isildur’s Repentance and Final Farewell

Timestamps: [97:13]–[105:38]

• With darkness and relentless hostility, the Orcs tighten their noose.
• Two of Isildur’s sons, Cirion and Aratan, are killed in the desperate melee. Elendur, unscathed, confronts his father and commands him to abandon the fight, taking the Ring to the “Keepers of the Three”—even at the cost of his own life:

  “My king… your last councillor must advise, nay, command you as you commanded Okhtar. Go. Take your burden and at all costs bring it to the Keepers. Even at the cost of abandoning your men and me.” (Elendur, [98:44]) “Forgive me, and my pride that has brought you to this doom.” (Isildur, [105:19])

• Alan and Don draw powerful parallels between Isildur’s late repentance and Boromir’s in The Lord of the Rings, tying the episode’s themes into Tolkien’s broader moral universe:

  “This is such a rich parallel between these two. Both realize—too late—that the Ring is not something they can control…” (Alan, [111:33])

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6. Speculation, What-Ifs, and Listener Mail

Timestamps: [112:00]–[116:21]

• Don fields a perennial question: Why didn’t Elrond or Cirdan intervene to stop Isildur from keeping the Ring?
• Alan discusses the primacy of free will and why not even the greatest elves could forcibly take or destroy the Ring; only by the “finger of Ilúvatar” (divine intervention) could the Ring be unmade.

  “Free will is a thing... The ends do not justify the means for the free peoples of Middle-Earth.” (Alan, [112:41])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I have proclaimed my sovereign lordship over all the Dunedain in the north and in the south.” (Alan, [01:43])
• “You say that with such doubt in your voice, sir.” (Alan retorting to Don’s playful jab, [02:01])
• “I was sitting there for about four to five hours a day... going back and forth between, ‘How do I pronounce this? No, this is actually Elvish…’” (Don, on narrating his audiobook, [05:05])
• “My pride has fallen. It should go to the keepers of the three.” (Isildur, [84:49])
• “Night had come, and hope faded.” (Narration, [99:29])
• “Forgive me, and my pride that has brought you to this doom.” (Isildur, [105:19])
• “Dawn is not far off, but dawn will not help us, I fear… Yet dawn is ever the hope of men. Now, Dawn Marshall is not ever the hope of men, but Dawn is.” (Alan, wordplay, [100:03])

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Timeline of Important Segments

• [01:43] – Welcome & Humorous Introductions
• [03:33] – Don Marshall Interview, Authorial Projects
• [16:44] – Transition to Episode Theme
• [19:22]–[47:55] – Isildur’s Post-war Activities & Journey Planning
• [51:08] – Breakdown of Isildur’s Company
• [60:09] – The Dunedain Sing as They March
• [62:16] – The Orc Ambush: First Attack
• [78:45] – Tactical Analysis: Archery & Formations
• [83:07] – Second Orc Attack, Encirclement
• [84:49] – Isildur’s Failure to Master the Ring
• [97:13] – Orcs Close in, Sons Die, Elendur’s Command
• [105:19] – Isildur’s Repentance, Final Farewell
• [112:00] – Listener Mail: Could the Elves Have Stopped Isildur?
• [116:32] – Preview of Next Week (Isildur’s End)
• [117:07] – Listener Acknowledgments & Closing

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Tone and Style

• Deeply knowledgeable, yet inviting and humorous (“just a couple of friends chatting in a pub”)
• Frequent in-jokes, puns, and pop culture references (“Dawn Marshall is not ever the hope of men, but dawn is”)
• Detailed word-origin digressions for language geeks
• Honest engagement with Tolkien’s themes: pride, repentance, fate, and morality
• Clear reverence for Tolkien’s work, balanced with deep accessibility

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For Further Exploration

• Stay tuned for next week’s conclusion to the Disaster of the Gladden Fields, special interviews (notably with historian Brett Devereaux), and explorations of tangential themes (e.g., military logistics in Middle-earth).
• Fellowship of the Podcast members can access extended postscripts and deeper dives into the episode’s many footnotes.

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Summary for the Uninitiated

If you haven’t listened to this episode: expect a lively, lore-rich, and emotionally resonant discussion that takes you step by step through one of the most tragic and consequential episodes of Tolkien’s legendarium. Alan and Don combine scholarship, storytelling, and a dash of pub-table camaraderie—making this a must-hear episode for both hardcore Tolkienites and the merely curious.

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End of Summary

Transcript

[Alan Sisto]

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[Don Marshall]

So good you'll want to leave a voicemail about it. Sell your car today on Carvana. Pickup fees may apply.

[Alan Sisto]

Good evening, little masters, and welcome to episode 413 of the Prancing Pony podcast where I have proclaimed my sovereign lordship over all the Dunedain in the north and in the south.

[Don Marshall]

Yes, you are a great man of pride and vigor.

[Alan Sisto]

You say that with such doubt in your voice, sir.

[Don Marshall]

Well, is it.

[Alan Sisto]

Is it my age again already? Are we there?

[Don Marshall]

No, it was your. Anyway, folks, pull up a bench in the common room and join us. I am Don Marshall, the obscure Lord of the Rings facts guy. And I am here with the the man of the west who would never take 40 days to travel 900 miles. Mr. Alan Sisto.

[Alan Sisto]

No, I just get a couple of buses for my 200 soldiers. I'd make a really nice road trip out of it. I mean, come on. All right, folks. Folks, join us for Isildur's redemption tour as we begin a possibly two brief, two part look at the disaster the Gladden Fields from Unfinished Tales. And welcome back Dawn Marshall to the common room.

[Don Marshall]

Well, thank you, Alan. It is very Good to be back, folks. No matter whether you came to Middle Earth through the books, the films, the TV show, or something else, each of you is welcome here in our common room. The Prancing Pony podcast continues in our 10th season of Reading and talking our way through Middle Earth with conversations, digressions, and even speculations, not to mention the

[Alan Sisto]

occasional pun or bad joke here and there. And with dawn back, you know, the old jokes are coming. Our purpose, though, is to dive deep into the lore, discuss the story, talk about our favorite characters and themes, Tolkien's inspirations, and a whole lot more.

[Don Marshall]

And while we take the work very seriously, the same cannot be said for ourselves, as is evident by the last few minutes. We are just a couple of friends chatting in a pub. And we're very glad you've joined us.

[Alan Sisto]

We are, and I'm sure you'll be glad you joined as well. But before we get to today's chapter discussion, well, it's time for us to catch up with Don. After all, it's been a year and a half since he's last been on the show. Now though, it was November of 2024 when you last co hosted here on the PPP. Sara and I did get a chance to talk with you back in early December about the release of your book, the Father of Modern Fantasy. Now that the process is behind you, can you reflect a bit on it? What, what has been the best part of being an author?

[Don Marshall]

Oh, it's. It's such a bizarre thing that I never thought I would ever get the chance to do. And I'm sure somewhere deep within me there is another, you know, fantasy story that I could write or science fiction novel. But, you know, there's, there's a whole lot of, of fear and it's very nerve wracking. But this first bit of, of, you know, dipping my toes into being an author really felt like the best possible path for me because I was able to sort of lean into my expertise. I love Tolkien, I love Middle Earth. And being able to, you know, learn about JRR Tolkien, writing a kind of mini biography for

[Alan Sisto]

an absolutely incredible process that is amazing. And of course, you get to do a lot more than just write your book. I understand you narrated the audiobook.

[Don Marshall]

Yep.

[Alan Sisto]

That must have been quite the experience. I mean, speaking as somebody who's done that as well, what was that like for you?

[Don Marshall]

So I'm typically used to spending about a minute and a half in audio recording booths. I used to be a journalist as a.

[Alan Sisto]

You had 3,000 sessions then, is what you're telling me.

[Don Marshall]

Oh, goodness, no. I was sitting there for about four to five hours a day. Day. Every day for a couple of days, and just going back and forth between. All right, how do I pronounce this? And. No, this is actually Elvish. And having to explain to the. The folks in the recording booth, no, no, I. I have to do that take again. It's actually pronounced O L, Bareth. Gilsoniel. And I did it wrong. Watching their faces was. Was truly one of those moments of, like, oh, we're so deep into nerd territory. I. I've maybe strayed off the beaten path too much.

[Alan Sisto]

They're like, man, I bit off more than I could chew here. This is. Yeah, I got lucky. The sound engineer on my project was a big Tolkien nerd. So he was excited about the book, really. He actually had attended some of the One Ring events at the Hive of Scum and Villainy there in Hollywood. He knew. He knew Clifford Broadway. And so, like, for him, it was like, you know, just a cool fan thing. But of course, he also did a really killer job catching things that I wouldn't have caught. Did that happen to you at all where the sound engineer was like, no, no, no, stop. You're gonna have to do that one over, Don.

[Don Marshall]

I. I fear it did. But for maybe some reasons I was not particularly fond of, I had eaten a very big lunch right before I recorded oh, no. And it made my stomach growl a little. Yeah, yeah. I learned the first day, you cannot eat lunch right before you're about to go into a recording studio because that very sensitive microphone will pick up everything.

[Alan Sisto]

Speaking of writing, back then, we asked if you thought you might write a sequel at some point. Now, for me, I know a sequel is something that's years off. Is there anything about your potential sequel you'd like to tell us today?

[Don Marshall]

As a matter of fact, Alan, yes, there is, because we sold enough copies of the first book, J.R.R. tolkien, the Father of modern fantasy, that they asked me to write a second one, which I am thrilled to announce is titled Facts of the Fellowship, and will be on October 6th of 2026.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, my goodness. That quick?

[Don Marshall]

That quick?

[Alan Sisto]

Yes. That's like a year after the publication of the first book.

[Don Marshall]

It was. Yes. I have been incredibly hard at work keeping this a secret, and I'm just incredibly grateful for the opportunity to even be able to go back and do another one, because I will say writing this one was. Was significantly easier because I had already done the first one, and I knew what I was doing a Little bit more. And was able to sort of flex my writing style and grow a little bit.

[Alan Sisto]

And it was facts about the facts of the Fellowship.

[Don Marshall]

Facts of the Fellowship, yes.

[Alan Sisto]

So it's another vignette sort of concept where you're writing little bits and pieces almost like your show, like your channel.

[Don Marshall]

Yes, same idea. Very much like my first book, a little bit like my TikTok stuff, but it is almost, in a way, a bit of a Silmarillion companion, a movie movie companion where it follows 99 different sort of vignette style stories that delve deeply into things that are involved in the Silmarillion within the trilogy, within the Hobbit, unfinished tales, his letters that all sort of combined into one that really my big pitch is, if you've seen the movies and you want to know more, this book is kind of a companion piece to that because I go pretty deeply into basically everything that they do from the movies and try and make that into a much more concrete and grounded in Tolkien's literary work to try and encourage more people to read the book.

[Alan Sisto]

To read. Yes, I like that. Yeah, I like that. So a couple things come to mind immediately. First is you've already answered, which is this isn't just facts about the first book or the first movie. This isn't facts about Fellowship of the Ring as opposed to trivia of the Two Towers or whatever alliteration you could come up with for Return to King. No, no.

[Don Marshall]

Despite the namesake, we are. We are covering every and anything that I felt was sort of important to anyone that is not necessarily new to Tolkien, but maybe doesn't have the plethora of knowledge that, say, you or I do, that have spent many, many years delving into the deeper side of the Tolkien lore and want to know a little bit more. For example, I always give this entry its due because it is what I absolutely love. And it was the first entry I wrote, did you know that gr. The big hammer that you see, the battering ram used to be an enormous weapon wielded by Sauron's master Morgoth. And I go into the whole backstory of it, and I include some stuff that Tolkien liked about it and some stuff by the great Tolkien scholars, Tom Shippy. I include things from the letters and it's just been an absolute blast, taking everything that I know about Tolkien and the Lord of the Rings and trying to mush. Not mush, but make it all fit cohesively into one book.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, and make it bite sized, because I'm sitting here thinking, okay, if you're telling me to expand on, you know, like I'm thinking of in the films and in the books, when Aragorn is singing part of the lay of Laethian. Oh, now I get to tell the story of Baron and Luthien. 27 pages later, I get to do the next vignette. That's not a vignette, Alan. You're missing the idea. So that must have been a bit of a challenge for you because, you know, you're as knowledgeable as anybody else in this field, and for you to have to shrink that down must have been itself. One of the challenges in writing this.

[Don Marshall]

It was. It was because there's so much that can go into it.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yeah.

[Don Marshall]

I had to very much be very picky about what I included. And, you know, there's. There's so much to include. I wanted to try and narrow it down to something that would give. At the very least, I wanted to give movie watchers something new to enjoy. And anyone that's read maybe just the trilogy wet their palette to say, hey, maybe try Unfinished Tales. Maybe try the Silmarillion this next time. Because I. So many of my comments online have been, you know, I tried picking up the Silmarillion. I tried to go a little bit deeper in the Tolkien, Lauren. It's just too much. This was my attempt to make it not too much.

[Alan Sisto]

That's fair. Well, you mentioned Unfinished Tales, and I'm sure that the story of Isildur and the disaster of the Gladden fields was something that she pointed out in there.

[Don Marshall]

Oh, yes. It has its own entry, actually.

[Alan Sisto]

Good. We'll have to. Of course, we're going to get two full episodes on it. So we'll spend three or four hours on something you spent like two paragraphs on. So see how that works out.

[Don Marshall]

450 words at this point.

[Alan Sisto]

So, you know, that's a bigger vignette than I would have thought. You know. Okay.

[Don Marshall]

We try and we try and tell a compelling story, even if it's not quite the. The 10,000 word behemoth. That is,

[Alan Sisto]

as the outline for today's episode is. I knew you picked that number from somewhere. All right, Don, are there any other new projects that you're working on? I know you famously do a lot of different things. I mean, obviously the Tick Tock videos, you do some ttrpg. Any other new things that are going on in Don Marshall's world?

[Don Marshall]

Happy to say I am still going strong in the Tick Tock universe. I'm also on Instagram. I'm on Facebook. I'm currently on substack trying new things out as I continue to write a little bit more rather than be on camera. The TTRPG stuff we kind of had to put on hold. As much as I love Dungeons and Dragons and playing within the Middle Earth Dungeons and Dragons system called the One Ring, we're. We're having to sort of put that on hold for right now, but we will be back. We are in the midst of filming episodes, but we want to just make sure we've got enough of a back catalog before we release anything. So keep an eye out for that for hopefully late 2026 and 2027.

[Alan Sisto]

You know what I was going to say, you and I need to do that, do some One Ring stuff, but I think what we need to do before that is do another magic rematch.

[Don Marshall]

Oh, yes, absolutely. Well, I mean, we have a new set coming out.

[Alan Sisto]

I know. I was about to say, when do the Hobbit cards come out? This summer? Yeah, this summer. Excited? That's going to be a lot of fun.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, yeah, I think it's going to be really great.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm looking forward to it. If nothing else, it'll also bring the Lord of the Rings cards, I think, back into whatever the current. I don't remember all the technical terms, but like they'll be current again and you'll be able to play them, you know, in like arena and some of these other formats. So.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

All right. So a couple of months back we heard about some late night TV host trying to write a Tolkien movie and now I'm trying to picture David Letterman and that's probably not a good fit. It seems that actually Stephen Colbert will be writing the film that's going to release after the Hunt for Gollum. It's set some 14 years or so after the events of the films and looks like it's going to include a young Eleanor. Which made me think of the time that you and I spent at the beginning of last season talking about the unpublished epilogue, which was a lot of fun getting into, into that in depth. Given that. What would you like to see included in this new adaptation and what do you think the biggest risk is that they'll be taking in filling in the blanks.

[Don Marshall]

I really hope one that they include Tom Bombadil in some way, shape or form.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a given, I think, isn't it?

[Don Marshall]

I really hope so. I really, really hope so. I also hope that in a way I would love to see Eleanor as the main character. I think there is something to be said about, you know, this. This world of modern media that we live in where, you know, major corporations own the IPs of our childhoods and are sort of trying to recapture that magic, whether it's Star wars or Chronicles of Narnia or Percy Jackson, whatever you may enjoy like that, but for Lord of the Rings, because it is such a beloved book series and movie series, I want them to take risks. I want this to be the Rogue One of the Star wars story. And you know what? Even.

[Alan Sisto]

Right. The Solo, even if, you know, I like that. Thank you.

[Don Marshall]

I thought Solo was a very fun movie.

[Alan Sisto]

I enjoyed the heck out of that. I always. I said that because I know that it's not the fan favorite, but I enjoyed the heck out of that movie. So, yeah, I think they did a

[Don Marshall]

great job with it. And honestly, if we could have a movie where I could walk out of it and say, that was a lot of fun, I'm gonna recommend other people go see.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Don Marshall]

I don't need this to be, you know, trying to recapture the Peter Jackson billion dollar box office thing again. No, I want to find ways to make me say, oh, okay, cool. Because. And, you know, I don't necessarily know what that looks like. I am withholding my. My judgment. I'm a little bit more ambivalent on things like this right now, but I

[Alan Sisto]

am a little bit, by all the.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, I'm skeptical, but not cynical. Not even that. I'm not even saying that I'm skeptical. I'm just. I'm not optimistic. I'm just neutral. I have hope, but I don't have optimism. How's that? My expectations are.

[Don Marshall]

I think I'm right there with you. Yeah. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

All right. You mentioned Tom Bombadil, actually, that feels like that might be the biggest risk they're going to be taking, too. Like, I hope they include it. But it's also the big throw of the dice because Tom is a tough character. So we'll see. Well, Don, I got to tell you, it's been great to catch up so far. I'm really looking forward to this run of episodes on the disaster the Gladden Fields, our chat with Brett Devereaux, and of course, some time talking about the mysterious druidyne. But, yeah, fun times ahead, my friend. Fun times.

[Don Marshall]

All right, you ready to get started about the disaster of the Gladden Fields?

[Alan Sisto]

Alan, I sort of hate that the teaser is done. Like, there's the. Like, we know what's going to happen. It's the disaster of the Gladden Fields. Thanks. For telling me. Professor. It's like every Silmarillion chapter.

[Don Marshall]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Tells you exactly what's going to happen. Yeah. Or.

[Don Marshall]

Or the title of the third book, the Return of the King.

[Alan Sisto]

Which he did not want, as we know if we read the letters. All right. Disaster of the Gladden Fields. I'll get reading. After the fall of Sauron, Isildur, the son and heir of Elendil, returned to Gondor. There he assumed the Elendilmir as King of Arnor and proclaimed his sovereign lordship over all the Dunedain in the north and in the south, for he was a man of great pride and vigor. He remained for a year in Gondor restoring its order and defining its bounds. But the greater part of the army of Arnor returned to Eriador by the Numenorean road from the fords of Isen to Fornost. When he at last felt free to return to his own realm, he was in haste. And he wished to go first to Imladris for he had left his wife and youngest son there and he had, moreover, an urgent need for the Council of Elrond. He therefore determined to make his way north from Osgiliath up the Vales of Anduin to Cirith, Foren and Andrath, the high climbing pass of the north that led down to Imladris. He knew the land well, for he had journeyed there often before the war of the alliance and had marched that way to the war with men of eastern Arnor in the company of Elrond. It was a long journey. But the only other way west and then north to the road meeting in Arnor, and then east to Imladris was far longer as swift may be for mounted men. But he had no horses fit for riding. Safer may be in former days. But Sauron was vanquished, and the people of the Vales had been his allies in victory. He had no fear, save for weather and weariness. But these men must endure whom need sends far abroad in Middle Earth. So it was, as is told in the legends of later days, that the second year of the Third Age was waning. When Isildur set forth from Osgiliath early in Evenneth, expecting to reach Imladris in 40 days. By mid Narbeleth, ere winter drew nigh in the north at the east gate of the bridge on a bright morning, Meneldil bade him farewell. Go now with good speed. And may the sun of your setting out not cease to shine on your road.

[Don Marshall]

So we start at the very beginning of the Third Age, right after the siege of Barad Dur and the defeat of Sauron.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. And we start with a passage that might just hold the Prancing Pony podcast record for the most footnotes. We had 10 just in that passage, I read.

[Don Marshall]

Really? Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

We're going to have a lot of sidebars and digressions. Yes, sir.

[Don Marshall]

All right, let's keep going. Isildur, whose father Elendil, died in order to defeat Sauron, he returns to Gondor, is the king of both Arnor and the High King of both realms. We read that he puts on the Elendilmir, the Star of Elendil, as his symbol of office as the King of Arnor.

[Alan Sisto]

And he spends that first year of his kingship in Gondor putting everything back to rights after the Long War. And that's actually worth a brief sidebar into something that Matt and I visited last year during our time in the chapter on Kirjana Orel. See, towards the end of that chapter, we read about the tradition of Isildur where we learn more about just what he did during that year. Don quote.

[Don Marshall]

It is said that when Isildur returned from the War of the Last alliance, he remained for a time in Gondor ordering the realm and instructing Meneldil, his nephew before he himself departed to take up the kingship of Arnor. With Meneldil and a company of trusted friends, he made a journey about the borders of all the lands to which Gondor laid claim. And as they were returning from the northern bound to Anorian they came to a high hill that was then called Aelinire but was afterwards called Amon Amwar, Hill of Awe, what we now know as the Halfurien.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. And then the text continues. That was near to the center of the lands of Gondor. They made a path through the dense woods of its northward slopes and so came to its summit, which was green and treeless. There they made a level space, and at its eastward end they raised a mound. Within the mound, Isildur laid a casket that he bore with him. Then he said, this is a tomb and memorial of Elendil the Faithful. Here it shall stand at the midpoint of the Kingdom of the south in the keeping of the Valar while the kingdom endures. And this place shall be a hollow that none shall profane. Let no man disturb its silence and peace unless he be an heir of Elendil. So that event in Kirjana took place during this year that he's running around Gondor dealing with the things that he needs to deal with and the boundaries. Right. Very interesting stuff. You remember that moment?

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, yeah. I can't imagine what Isildur is going through at that moment. That's. That's just.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, he's, what, a year removed from his father's death? He's the king now. He's got all this responsibility on him

[Don Marshall]

and the War of the Last Alliance. Keep in mind the siege of Barad Dur was something like seven years, I think.

[Alan Sisto]

Seven years, yeah. I mean, and in that time, of course, he watched his brother die. Aenarion was slain by a stone cast during the siege that took his life sometime during that seven years.

[Don Marshall]

But, yeah, in the meantime, he's running around Gondor with his nephew. Most of his army has gone home by the North Road. That's the one that goes west through Calenardhon, then swings north after the Fords of Isen.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. And then one other thing that he does in this time, not mentioned in the text here, but it's something that we read about in the Tale of Years, is he plants a seedling of the White Tree in what was then Minas Anor, which is, of course now Minas Tirith.

[Don Marshall]

Right. So by the time that he is ready to head north in Ornor, it's already Third Age year two. And he is in a bit of a hurry. He wants to stop by Rivendell on the way because his wife, who was unnamed, and his youngest son, Valandil, are there. In fact, as he was born in second age 3430, it would seem that he was actually born there.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I mean, we don't get that explicitly mentioned in the text, but that's certainly an implication just based on the birth date. Isildur is also said to have an urgent need to get Elrond's advice. Don, I think we know precisely what he wants to talk to him about. I mean, that's why he's got it with him. It's why he's going there. We know what Elrond's advice was at the time that they were at the Cracks of Doom. What's Elrond's advice going to be now?

[Don Marshall]

I personally feel like Elrond would say the same advice, you know, destroy it now. But if you're going to not destroy it, at the very least, keep it hidden, keep it secret, keep it safe. But, you know, the, the, the best advice I don't think had. Had changed in Elrond's mind. He is thousands of years old and Likely knows that no good is ever going to come of that Ring.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I mean, you know, he talks about it at the Council of Elrond, like, hey, you know, I. He didn't do what we advised him to do. You know, Gil Galad and I were there and we. We told him to cast the Ring into the fire. But how does he get it there now? I mean, okay, Mordor is nowhere near like what Mordor is at the time when Frodo has to carry this out. It's not right. Filled, overflowing with Orcs. Sauron has been cast down. So it's. It's mostly emptied. You'd think that that makes it easy, but every step he's going to take towards that mountain is going to be just like the steps Frodo took.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, I don't know if Isildur would have been capable of destroying it at that point, having had it more.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that's the thing. Is anybody capable of destroying it? I mean, you know, he's taking the Ring, as we'll see later on in the story, it has to go to the keepers of the Three. And he knows that the Keepers of the Three aren't going to want it. They're going to want it destroyed. But do they perhaps say, you know what? You're right, you're not going to be capable of destroying it. You've proven that already. We'll take it and we'll destroy it ourselves. You think Elrond says, okay, fine, give it to me. I'll go take care of it? I don't know. It's some interesting speculation. Like, what happens at this point.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, that's a tough question. Cause who takes it? Cirdon, Galadriel, Elrond, Celebor.

[Alan Sisto]

The three of them together. Who's to say they get three identical little pouches and then they have somebody randomly put it into one of them and then dummy rings into the other two. And they give everybody a pouch with a ring in it. They don't know which one. And they all have to go and throw their rings. And that way it's sort of like they can say to themselves, well, this isn't really the ring. The ring is sitting over there in Elrond's pouch. I'm going to throw this one in the fire. I don't know. Just throwing ideas out there. How do they make this happen?

[Don Marshall]

I don't know. Love where this is going, Alan. Sounds like a book you could write.

[Alan Sisto]

Or a TTRPG session. Really, that's. Oh, I've just given you an idea for a whole campaign.

[Don Marshall]

I'll take it.

[Alan Sisto]

I'll take it.

[Don Marshall]

We've had one journey to Mordor. What about the second journey to Mordor?

[Alan Sisto]

Do it earlier in time. Third Age 2. Third Age 3. There we go. Let's assume that the entire disaster of the Gladden Fields is actually the success of the Gladden Fields. And the ring goes to Elrond. And Elrond says, hey, Galadriel. Hey, Gil Galad or Kiridan, Because Kiridan has it at this point, because Gil Galad rang, you know, dead. I think I mentioned earlier that, you know, oh, Gil Galad. I told him to throw it in the fire. It wasn't Gil Galad. Of course it was Kirdan. And I knew that, but my brain was thinking of Gil Galad. But so, you know, Kiridan and Elrond are like, dude, throw it in the fire. And he's like, nah, keeping this. Yeah. So who goes? I think that's an interesting, fun thing. All right, Anyway, I just thought that was a fun question to talk about. Like, what is Elrond's advice going to be? And we know what it's going to be. So now we get his route right. The chapter tells us exactly what he's going to do and why he's going to do it. Silder goes on a MapQuest, he prints out some directions. I know that's very millennial, Don. You probably don't even remember the days of that.

[Don Marshall]

I'm old enough to remember MapQuest. It just.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm Gen X. I remember Thomas Guides.

[Don Marshall]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Which are the spiral bound books that you keep in your car.

[Don Marshall]

I knew you both. Okay, See, my parents had one of those growing up in the back of

[Alan Sisto]

the car, so you had to say that. I'm just grateful you didn't say grandparents. Thank you for that kindness, Don.

[Don Marshall]

Well, I mean, you wouldn't be wrong to say that. But I did, you know, I wanted

[Alan Sisto]

to age it up a little bit. It's only the first episode of five. You want to. Yeah, you save some room. Right? You don't want to hit the ceiling already. All right, so Isildur is not leaving for Minas Tirith, which is still Minas Anor at this point. And that's because the capital is at the Osgiliath. Right?

[Don Marshall]

And that is important because it gives him a choice to go up on either side of the Anduin. And the text here says that he is going up the east side of the river into the veils of the Anduin.

[Alan Sisto]

Right? So he's not Gonna have to cross over the river until he gets to, you know, like the Kadok. At some point, you know, he's not gonna. He's not gonna be on the wrong side of the river, right? So he's headed there to a pass that we're familiar with. But here it's given its Sindran name. And I believe it's the only place find this name. According to Christopher's footnote, Cirith Foreign en Andrath. It is the High Pass.

[Don Marshall]

And this is the one taken by Thorne and company in the Hobbit we even Gloin mentions it this specific pass in the Council of Elrond. The quote is quote, if it were not for the Bjornings, the passage from Dale to Rivendell would long ago have become impossible. They are valiant men and keep open the High Pass and the ford of Karok. Some brief word nerdery about this time because we. We should. Alan.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, absolutely. So Cirith, of course you are all pretty familiar with that one. That's cleft ravine or pass. We see this in a lot of places. Kirith Ungol, the Cleft of the spider. Cirith Gorgor, the haunted pass. And those of you following word nerd Wednesdays on my daily show will remember that that kir element is cognate with Quenia Kyria, as in Karakiria, the Pass of Light. So that's Cirith, right? Cirith Forn. And Andrath. Forn is simply North Fornast, Forlon Forochel. So you've already got cleft or pass north. The N element is the preposition of or of the. We see it in places like Kabed en Aras, which is the Leap of the deer or Bar En Danwed, the House of ransom. So now we've got the pass north of. Right, or the north pass of. And then we've got Andrath. That's an interesting word. It's long climb, more literally long street. But that's. That is also kind of a thing because that is a compound of and meaning long, which we see in Anduin, right? Great river or Anfalas, the Long Strand. And Rath, which means climbing street. Like in Rath Dinan, where they, you know, have the houses of the dead in Minas Tirith. All of the streets in Minas Tirith are apparently named Rath because they are of course climbing streets. So Andrath is long climb.

[Don Marshall]

Love that. So the high climbing pass of the north, which Tolkien says a right there.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah, I know it's. I still. I had to do it, right?

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, it's word Nerdery. It's always worth it.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. So back to the text. We're told that Isildur knew this route, especially this pass. He'd been to Rivendell often before the Last alliance. And then of course, he'd headed that way with his Arnorian army coming from the other side of the mountains.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, it is a long road, but the only other way to get to Rivendell is actually even longer. And that would mean taking the North Road like his army had, and then going all of the way up to what we now know of as the Bree crossroads before turning east and then heading to Rivendell.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. And the footnote here gives us an idea of the distances involved. The route that Isildur is planning to take on the east side of the Anduin is said to be 300 leagues and more, and for the most part without roads. That's more than 900 miles without roads.

[Don Marshall]

Speaking of roads, this footnote also explains that the only road in this period were the north roads that ran through what is now Rohan, turned north after the Fords of Isen and then headed up to Fornost and then the East West Road that went from the Grey Havens to Rivendell. So no wonder Bree proved to be such an important meeting place for so many people.

[Alan Sisto]

Literally the only intersection in the world at this point. So we learned that The Crossroads are 392 leagues from Australia. So that's a very long distance. And we're talking about nearly 1200 miles. That's already 25% longer than the route that Isildur is planning. But then it's another 116 leagues from the Crossroads to Rivendell, making the trip 508 leagues altogether. That's 1524 miles, folks. That's like halfway across the continent of North America, across the United States.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, that longer way might be just as fast if they were on horseback, since it's a road. But we read that quote. He had no horses fit for riding. And just a reminder here, Gondor and Numenor before it weren't known for their cavalry.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. And the footnote here explains something that you and I talked about actually at the very start of last season. In the appendices, we covered a description of the island of Numenor to kind of give some more background to that early part of the appendix, Appendix A. And we read there that, you know, they did have horses and they did love them. Right? And they horseback riding was a hobby among all of them, they loved it. It was a passion. But just as we read there, we read in this footnote, they did not use them in war, for all their wars were overseas. And it's difficult to transport a cavalry unit. It is, as we know.

[Don Marshall]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, Rings of Power somehow got around that as we tease them about the idea that they Transported like a 500 man cavalry with all their horses. And look, I know that in the real world, small cavalry units were transported by ship. You know, we know that's a thing, but it is difficult and certainly with any significant numbers, you're not going to be able to transport the kinds of numbers that they would have needed for the Battle of Dagarlad and the Siege of Battadour. It's not going to happen.

[Don Marshall]

No chance.

[Alan Sisto]

And so because of that, they just never really leaned on a heavy cavalry.

[Don Marshall]

And just as a reminder, let's go back to that chapter. It's been about 18 months since we talked about it, so obviously a refresher is in order. Quote, in Numenor, all journeyed from place to place on horseback. For in riding the Numenoreans, both men and women took delight. And all the people of the lands loved horses, treating them honorably and housing them nobly.

[Alan Sisto]

I love that. In fact, we learn there that they were trained to hear and answer calls from a great distance. And it is said in old tales that where there was great love between men and women and their favorite steeds, they could be summoned at need by thought alone. Which is very Shadowfax y, you know, with Gandalf just calling for Shadowfax, who in the books was a lot farther away. He's certainly out of range of his weird little warbly whistle. But yeah, it's quite a thing.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, it is. That's the Tolkien magic system for you folks. Don't think too much about it. We can just kind of do a hand wavy. Exactly. Thank you, Alan. But yeah, they didn't really use them much in war. The footnote saying that they were used only by couriers and by bodies of light, armed archers, often not of Numenorean race. And more than that, in the War of the alliance, such horses as they used had suffered great losses and few were available in Osgiliath, which explains why

[Alan Sisto]

the Hertz, Enterprise and Avis desks were all closed. I mean, there were no rental horses to be found anywhere.

[Don Marshall]

Yes, I'd like to rent a horse, please.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I'm so sorry, we're all out, sir. I thought it was interesting that their only use in the military, of course, besides messengers, was by sort of allied forces, you know, not of Numenorean race. And so even when they did use horses, they didn't use horses for war. And when they did, it was these light armed archers which are going to be more like, you know, a light cavalry. They're not going to charge in. They're, they're, they're harassers. They're basically there to, to keep a route going. So after you've charged a unit and they've broken and turned, you're going to send your light cavalry after them to, to, you know, hit at them from the flanks and keep driving them off, keep them from, from being able to reform. It's a very interesting, you know, thing that I'm sure we're actually going to talk about with Brett Severo. I'll have to ask about that anyway. Right, yeah, more on that.

[Don Marshall]

We move on. We are told that the road to the west side of the mountains, that would have been safer before the war. But, you know, it's, it's all good now. Sauron was vanquished.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. That's right. Everything's good. Is a perfectly safe path now. It's a good neighborhood.

[Don Marshall]

We're fine, we're fine. Thinking through all that. Isildur is not worried about the trip. The only real concern to him at this point is weather and fatigue. But that is just, you know, any journey of a large distance.

[Alan Sisto]

I think exactly this need to go to Trader Joe's and get some food for the road trip and they need to make sure their insurance is paid up and that they know where the gas stations are. Now we do get some logistics here and it's really interesting, right? I mean, I love this kind of detail because this is another example of how Tolkien's built a world that is internally consistent and creates that, that inner consistency of reality. They did have to bring some horses, it turns out, just not for riding. They were baggage horses.

[Don Marshall]

And after all, there wouldn't be any places to stay on the trip, right? There's no hotels, there's no airbnbs, there's no air Inns, no hostiles, until they get all the way to Thranduil's realm.

[Alan Sisto]

The footnote says, and that's a long way up. A reminder, by the way, folks, Thranduil, we just talked about this happening in Third Age too. He is just the king. Like he just became king a couple years ago. Actually, he would have become king nine years ago because like we pointed out earlier, the Siege of Barad Dur was seven years in length, and his father Oropher was killed at the beginning of the Battle of the Dagger Lad, which was before the Siege of, along with two thirds of his army. So Thranduil came back to his new realm with a smaller force, a much smaller force. And he's only been King of the Woodland Realm for, you know, less than a decade.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, right. And each of Isildur's men carried two days worth of supplies, while the rest was carried by the pack animals. So we even learn details about the pack animals. That's just the level of detail the Tolkien goes into for these things. They are, quote, small, sturdy horses of a kind, it was said, that had first been found wild and free in the wide plains south and east of the Greenwood. They had been tamed, but though they would carry heavy burdens at walking pace, they would not allow any man to ride them. Of these, they had only 10.

[Alan Sisto]

Honestly, that doesn't seem like enough. I'm going to just do a little bit of mathing here, but. But we're not going to go too deep, because this is definitely a question for Brett Tavareau in a couple of weeks. We'll see in the next reading that the total number here is 204. Right? You've got Isildur and his sons and then 200 knights. Now, that is a lot of food. If they're going to be gone for that long, they've got to be planning to forage because. Yeah, the closest comparison we can make because so many records were kept by the Roman military system. Roman legions typically required two to three pounds of food, mostly grain and meat per soldier per day. So even if we went with the low end of £2, and I'm not sure we can, because these guys are all like six, four giants, right? These are. These are Numenoreans. These are all big dudes. These are not your average, you know, Southern European, Mediterranean soldiers at like, 5, 6 on a good day. So if we go at the low end of 2 pounds, that's 408 pounds of food per day. For the. For the. For the size of the army times 40 days is 16,000 plus pounds of food. That's eight tons. I don't think these horses are carrying nearly a ton apiece, because that's about 10 times what a pack animal would ordinarily be able to carry. Looking at that, it's like 150, 160 pounds. So they got to be foraging.

[Don Marshall]

They have to be. I think there's. There's no doubt in my mind that, you know, this is a sort of hunting even. Yeah, yeah. You know, if maybe there's deer or wildlife that are edible somewhere out there,

[Alan Sisto]

you know, actually that ties into something we talk about later. We learned that he didn't have enough archers. I feel like maybe the only archers he had were there to help with assisting, you know, feeding the. The army. Because that's how you do it. Unless you're very, very fast.

[Don Marshall]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, hunting with your bare hands. Go kill that deer.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, I'm sure the Numenoreans are fast,

[Alan Sisto]

but they're not that fast, right? No. I don't know. It's just an interesting question. Definitely looking forward to chatting with Brett about that. But they do have the pack animals, so when they do forage and they do have a successful hunt, let's say they will be able to then travel on without stopping to forage or hunt for a number of days, perhaps. So, like, you know, whether it's every four or five days, then they have to stop and try to gather more food. Something like that. But we'll find out more in a couple of weeks.

[Don Marshall]

Exactly. All right. We went pretty deep into those last two footnotes, as we sometimes do, but there is still more to this passage, the timing of this trip.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. We learned that it's near the end of the year in Third Age two, when they head out. We're actually given the date. It's the fifth of Yavanye or Ivan Nef in Sindarin, and the footnote says that corresponds to our September. So September 5th.

[Don Marshall]

And they expect to arrive in Rivendell about 40 days later, so around October 15th, which means they're covering about 23 miles a day, which is about right.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, we'll go into more detail on the calendar in the postscript, so be sure to check that out if you're a member of the Fellowship of the podcast. And if you're not, what are you waiting for?

[Don Marshall]

Back to the text. When they head out that morning of the 5th of Yavanye, Isildur says goodbye to his nephew, Minnell Dill, who gives

[Alan Sisto]

him a lovely farewell that I frankly need to add to my repertoire of Middle Earth farewells. Go now. With good speed, of course. Okay. But I love this part. May the sun of your setting out not cease to shine on your road. That is such a great farewell. So. And the thing is, I don't doubt Maneldil's genuineness here. Right. He does love his uncle. But the footnote suggests there's a second

[Don Marshall]

Layer to it first it gives us more on exactly who he is. The son of Isildur's younger brother Anarion slain in the siege of Barad Dur. And recall that Isildur and Anarion held the kingship of Gondor jointly. Right. Their thrones side by side in Osgiliath while their father Elendil held the Kingship of Arnor and the High Kingship of both realms.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. So Isildur, after his father's death, steps into his father's shoes. That's why he's headed north. Death. But that means he needs to give the rule of Gondor to Anarion's heir, Meneldil. No more dual thrones. Right. He's now stepping into the High King and the King of Arnor. But who's going to rule Gondor? Well, it's going to be Meneldil. And in the footnote we read that he was a man of courtesy but far seeing and he did not reveal his thoughts. He was in fact well pleased by the departure of Isildur and his sons and hoped that affairs in the north would keep them long occupied. He was looking forward to being the king. I mean, it is good to be the king. Yeah, there's some trash.

[Don Marshall]

I mean, I would be a little. I would be a little. I mean, obviously I imagine he's quite upset at the fact that his father is no longer with him.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, and his, and his great uncle. I mean, everybody would have looked up to Elendil and not just because he was eight foot tall but I think

[Don Marshall]

there's a, there's maybe even a this is my chance to prove myself sort of situation going on here because he is, you know, perhaps overshadowed by the greatness that is these, these Numenorean legends of Isildur and Aenarion and Elendil and.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, and I think there's one other thing here. Right? He would have grown up watching his father and his uncle share the rule of Gondor. He's now seeing that he's going to get to do this. Not with one of the sons of Isildur. Right. If Elendil had lived and was still the High King and the King of Arnor Isildur would have remained on the throne of Gondor presumably with Meneldil. They would have shared the realm just as Isildur and Menelldil's father had done. And when Isildur died, if he died before Elendil, then his son would have shared the. They would have had the dual kingship. I don't know, because it's not really given in any detail, but that seems to be the case. So I think minel deals like not only do I get to be a king, I get to be the king.

[Don Marshall]

Now I'm just thinking about the alternate universe where both Anarion and Isildur survives and it's Return of the Kings instead, because there would be two of them.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Interesting idea. All right.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah. But keep in mind that quote that we just read, that's from Tolkien's own note. Christopher adds some more genealogical detail that he was the fourth child of Anarion, that he was born in the year 3318 of the second age, and that he was the last man to be born in Numenor. Wow.

[Alan Sisto]

So he would have been born just before the downfall.

[Don Marshall]

I'm picturing as our Pharazon is sailing off. You just hear

[Alan Sisto]

and that that was creepily accurate, Don, especially for somebody who doesn't even have children. Like, how did you do that?

[Don Marshall]

I have many party tricks and impressions

[Alan Sisto]

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[Don Marshall]

That's right. The PPP really does have a warm and welcoming listener community. If you've got questions or you just want to talk about how much you love Middle Earth, be sure to check out our common room on Facebook and across all social media. On Facebook, just look for the Prancing Pony podcast. Yep, there is a page, but you're going to want to join the group for that great fan community.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, the group is where it's all at now on every social media platform other than Facebook. We're just at prancingpony Pod, so follow us and you can find our subreddit at R Prancingponypod. And please consider checking out my daily Tolkien show, today's Tolkien Times on all your favorite podcast apps. Get your daily Middle Earth fix with everything from Middle Earth Map Mondays to First Stage Fridays. Be sure to listen wherever you get your podcasts. Don, I promise you we're not going to spend 40 minutes on every single one of the the points in this chapter. That was just a really long one. The next ones are a little more reasonable. And would you start us out then with the the stern men of Arnor?

[Don Marshall]

I would love to. With isildur went his three sons, Elendor, Aratan, and Kyrion, and his guard of 200 knights and soldiers, stern men of Arnor, and war hardened of their journey, nothing is told, until they had passed over the Dagorlad and on northward into the wide and empty lands south of Greenwood the great. On the 20th day, as they came within far sight of the forest crowning the high lands before them with a distant gleam of the red and gold of Ivaneth, the sky became overcast and a dark wind came up from the Sea of Rhun, laden with rain. The rain lasted for four days. So when they came to the entrance of the vales between Lorien and Amon Lok, Isildur turned away from the Anduin swollen with swift water, and went up the steep slopes on its eastern side to gain the ancient paths of the Silvan elves that ran near the eaves of the forest. So it came to pass that late in the afternoon of the 30th day of their journey, they were passing the north borders of the Gladden fields, marching along a path that led to Thranduil's realm. As it was then, the fair day was waning above the distant mountains. Clouds were gathering, reddened by the misty sun as it drew down towards them. The deeps of the valley were already in gray shadow. The Dunedain were singing, for their day's march was near its end. And three parts of the long road to Imladris were behind them. To their right, the forest loomed above them at the top of steep slopes running down to their path, below which the descent into the valley bottom was gentler.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, we didn't expect that first reading to cover so much time, like I said, but there was a lot of background information, information to cover and 10 footnotes. Like I said, there are a lot fewer here. Only four.

[Don Marshall]

Oh, boy. Well, we'll start with a breakdown on the forces going with Isildur, beginning with his three sons. We've got Elendor, born in Numenor and 20 years old at the time of the fall, and his two middle sons, Aratan and Cirion, born in 3339 and 3379, respectively.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. So in third age two, Isildur is 234 years old. His sons are 144, 104 and 64. And then you've got Vallandil up in rivendell, born in second age, 3430, he's 13. So you've got a 40 year gap, a 40 year gap and a 51 year gap. Recall, though, the discussions that Sara and I had about the gaps between children in Numenorean families, given their lifespans, especially those of the royal line, this is not particularly surprising.

[Don Marshall]

No, not really surprising at all. But, you know, from a mortal, a mere mortal.

[Alan Sisto]

Terrifying.

[Don Marshall]

Cannot imagine having an age difference in sons quite like that one.

[Alan Sisto]

It's 144 or one. That's 13.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, that's a bit much. 131 year gap between brothers, you know,

[Alan Sisto]

hand me downs, totally out of style.

[Don Marshall]

Sorry it's all rusted, this armor we're giving to you, but it's quite, quite old.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right, that's right. Well, the 1870s are calling. They want their fashion back.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, they do. They do. So along with these royal four, there are 200 Arnorian soldiers. These are Isildur's guards, described as war hardened. Recall that the siege of Barador was seven years long, as we had mentioned before. Yeah, this. And then we get a very brief travel log, one that is thankfully, up to this point, incident free.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Spoilers. It won't stay that way. They pass over the battle plane, that's the Daggerlod, and then into the plains that lie between there and the southern end of the Greenwood, because of course, it's not Mirkwood for another couple millennia. Halfway on the trip, they begin to see the forest in the distance because it's sitting up on the highlands. And they talk about the typical colors of fall. This would be around September 25th, right?

[Don Marshall]

And there's a big rainstorm coming from the inland sea that lasts for four days. So when they get to the start of the vales of the Anduin, they turn east from the river and they go up the steep slopes to find the path near the forest to try to get themselves a little bit of relief from that rain.

[Alan Sisto]

So try to think of the river being in a valley, as most rivers typically are, and then you have a slope, and the top of the slope is the edge of the forest. So they've climbed the slopes to get on the path in order to kind of give themselves a little bit of shelter. Now, the vales are described as beginning between Lorien and Amon Lanc. Now, Lorien you know by now, but Amon Lanc might be a new name to you. The footnote says the name means Naked Hill and explains that it's the highest point in the Highland at the southwest corner of the Greenwood, and. And was so called because no trees grew on its summit. Now, side note, because the name means Naked Hill, Amon Rudh, the hill where Turin encountered Mim, the petty dwarf. That meant Bald Hill, but it was named that for the same exact reason that no trees grew on its summit. Just thought I'd mention that.

[Don Marshall]

Love that. But the kicker in this footnote is the reminder that Amon Lanc became known as Dol Guldur, the first stronghold of Sauron after his awakening. So we've got.

[Alan Sisto]

So now you know where it is.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, now we know where it is. Yeah, exactly. So we then move to day 30 of their trip. This is around October 4th, as they pass by the north end of the Gladden Fields. We'll have more on this in a second. On the path that would take them all the way to Thranduil's kingdom. And we talked about that earlier, but it's only been his kingdom for a short amount of time.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Now, they had not always lived in the north of Greenwood. The footnote says that long before the War of the Alliance, Oropher, king of the Silvan Elves, east of Anduin, being disturbed by rumors of the rising power of Sauron, had left their ancient dwellings about Amon Lanc across the river from their kin in Lorien. Three times he had moved northwards, and at the end of the Second Age, he dwelt in the western glens of the Amenduir and His numerous people lived and roamed in the woods and vales westward and as far as Anduin, north of the ancient Dwarf road Men Inaugrim.

[Don Marshall]

So they'd lived near Amon Lon thousands of years before it was ever Dol Guldor. And they'd kept moving north until they'd ended up near the Emunduir, the Dark Mountains, the hills in the northeast where the realm was when Thorin Co. Reached it in the Hobbit.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Now, just as Eren Galen, which is Greenwood the Great, suffered a name change to become Tauren Mirkwood, so too did these hills going simply from Dark Mountains, the Emend, to Emen Nufuin, the mountains of Mirkwood. And we'll probably do more on this very long note, which is footnote 14 in the postscript.

[Don Marshall]

But a bit ago we said we'd come back to the Gladden Fields. They too have a Sindarin name, Lloyd Ningloron. And I'll only be bothered to say that once. Alan. So sorry about that.

[Alan Sisto]

That's okay, Todd. I felt bad. I was like, oh, man, Loygningleron. And that oe is not a sound that we see very often in Sindarin. So in the footnote we learned that the area had been settled by Sylvan Elves sometime before and that back then the Gladden Fields were actually, quote, a lake formed in a deep depression into which the Anduin poured from the north down the swiftest part of its course a long descent of some 70 miles and there mingled with the torrent of the Gladden River Syr Ninglor. Hastening from the mountains.

[Don Marshall]

The lake stretched out from the river on both sides, but it was wider to the west. By this time, though, the lake had become a great marsh through which the river wandered in a wilderness of islets and wide beds of reed and rushed marsh and armies of yellow iris that grew taller than a man and gave their names to all the region and to the river from the mountains about those lower courses they grew most thickly. But the marsh had receded to the east and from the foot of the lower slopes there were now wide flats grown with grass and small rushes on which men could walk.

[Alan Sisto]

So Isildur and his men have walked along those flats on the far eastern side along that path to the woodland realm. Right.

[Don Marshall]

And day is nearing its end, which means their march is likely going to as well. They are three fourths of the way to Rivendell, and they are feeling good.

[Alan Sisto]

They are. And in a real Blink and you miss it. Moment. And I love this. I want to linger on this just because it's so cool. The Dunedain were singing. This is awesome. These 200 men are singing. It is the end of their march. And they're just rejoicing that it's the end of their march. These are a bunch of guys who are just doing what they. I mean, this is great. I don't know what they're singing. I wish I knew. I want to know the story of the song. I want to know. But the fact that they do this is. It connects them to the elves. I feel like in some ways, you know, I mean, that's what elves do. Elves sing. And the Dunedain. These are not just ordinary men. These are, you know, the. The friends of the Eldar. These are the three houses of the Edain, you know, the faithful. So I just. I love that they're singing, and I want to know more about that. What are they singing, Don? Do you know?

[Don Marshall]

Probably, I would imagine a marching song of some sort or some sort of lay. Honestly, the lay of Laythean might. Might be one of the things that they.

[Alan Sisto]

A little sad, but maybe, maybe, maybe. I don't know. Numenoreans, they could be singing a sea shanty of some kind, because they're not that far removed.

[Don Marshall]

Numenorean sea shanties are great.

[Alan Sisto]

Wouldn't they? Yeah. Oh, yeah, I'd like that. It's kind of a working song, you know, Even if they are marching rather than on.

[Don Marshall]

I don't know.

[Alan Sisto]

It could be any number of things. I love it. And finally we get a picture of the lay of the land. And we talked about this before with the slope and everything. So you got to imagine you're heading north. To your right or to the east is the forest itself, and it's above you at the top of a steep slope. Right? Right.

[Don Marshall]

And their path is going north along the bottom of that steep slope and then off to their left, which is the west. The slope continues to the valley floor, but it is more gradual. But we have another little bit of description coming in before we get to some of the, shall we say more of the disastrous part of the disaster of the Gladden Fields. Alan, would you please read for us?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. The disaster begins here, doesn't it? So suddenly, as the sun plunged into cloud, they heard the hideous cries of orcs and saw them issuing from the forest and moving down the slopes, yelling their war cries in the dimmed light. Their number could only be guessed, but the dunedain were plainly many times, even to 10 times outnumbered. Isildur commanded a Thangael to be drawn up a shield wall of two serried ranks that could be bent back at either end if outflanked until at need it became a closed ring. If the land had been flat or the slope in his favor, he would have formed his company into a dirknaeth and charged the orcs, hoping by the great strength of the Dunedain and their weapons to cleave away through them and scatter them in dismay. But that could not now be done. A shadow of foreboding fell upon his heart. The vengeance of Sauron lives on, though he may be dead, he said to Elendor, who stood beside him. There is cunning and design here. We have no hope of help. Moria and Lorien are now far behind. And Thranduil. Four days march ahead. And we bear burdens of worth beyond all reckoning, said Elendur, for he was in his father's confidence. The orcs were now drawing near. Isildur turned to his esquire. Okhtar, he said, I give this now into your keeping. And he delivered to him the great sheath and the shards of Narsil Elendil's sword. Save it from capture by all means that you can find. And at all costs, even at the cost of being held, a coward who deserted me. Take your companion with you and flee. Go. I command you. Then Oktar knelt and kissed his hand and the two young men fled down into the dark valley. If the keen eyed Orcs marked their flight, they took no heed. They halted briefly, preparing their assault. First they let fly a hail of arrows. And then suddenly, with a great shout, they did as Isildur would have done and hurled a great mass of their chief warriors down the last slope against the Dunedain, expecting to break up their shield wall. But it stood firm. The arrows had been unavailing against the Numenorean armor. The great men towered above the tallest orcs, and their swords and spears far outreached the weapons of their enemies. The onslaught faltered, broken, and retreated, leaving the Tevinders little harmed, unshaken behind piles of fallen orcs.

[Don Marshall]

All right, the action begins. And presumably these 200 Dunedain soldiers not singing anymore.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I don't think they are. Good point. Yeah.

[Don Marshall]

No. As the sun goes down low behind the clouds, they hear the orcs and saw them pouring out of the forest and down that steep slope running right towards them.

[Alan Sisto]

That's bad. They have the high ground. Anakin, as the footnote tells us, this is A different version of the story than what you read in of the Rings of Power in the Third Age, which is published in the Silmarillion. There we read, Isildur was overwhelmed by a host of Orcs that lay in wait in the Misty Mountains, and they descended upon him at unawares in his camp between the Greenwood and the Great River Nigh. To Lloyd Dingloron, the Gladden Fields. For he was heedless and set no guard, deeming that all his foes were overthrown. I like this version of the story a lot better.

[Don Marshall]

Me too.

[Alan Sisto]

Let's talk a little bit about the differences. Right? I mean, I think the first big difference is the direction of the attack. Sounds to me like they were coming from the west. So that's a pretty significant difference. But there's some other more subtle differences, aren't there?

[Don Marshall]

There are, yes. I mean, look at just the. The phrase he was heedless and set no guard, deeming that all his foes were overthrown. I mean, this is almost a arrogance, if you will, A kind of arrogance that presumption is claiming, you know, presuming that there is no danger out there and that his men are safe. But as we know, this is. This is Middle Earth. There are going to be dangers around you regardless of.

[Alan Sisto]

Even with Sauron defeated, that doesn't mean all the Orcs are gone.

[Don Marshall]

Exactly, exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

That does tie back a little bit to what we read at the beginning, that he didn't have any fear of. Of enemies. And it makes sense. As we'll see later. This is abnormal. Like the Orcs behavior, especially after the defeat that they suffer in this initial charge, is different than what the Orcs normally do. And I think that's really important. But. But we'll get to that. So in the meantime, they are outnumbered, aren't they?

[Don Marshall]

They absolutely are. The numbers are significantly in favor of the Orcs. With the text saying they might be outnumbered 10 times. That would mean close to 2,000 orcs are attacking.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, even five to one seems like almost impossible numbers to overcome a thousand orcs, but 2000 against 200 guys. So now we get a glimpse of Numenorean Gondorian unit 4 formations. And I really am excited to talk with Brett Devereaux about this in a couple of weeks. So please, folks, be sure to check that out. If you have not listened to our interviews with him before, Matt and I did a couple of those. I think we talked Siege of Gondor with him, and we talked about the battle that cost on Deher, cost King on Deher and his son's lives. Ardimir and Fatimir in 1944, I believe that was in the third age. Just amazing stuff. He's. He knows his. His Tolkien and he knows his military stuff inside and out, so can't wait for that. That doesn't mean we won't talk about them here at all. So let's dive in. Don.

[Don Marshall]

Right, so Isildur has his men form what's called a thongyle, described in the text as a shield wall of two serried ranks that could be bent back at either end if outflanked, until at need, it became a closed rank ring.

[Alan Sisto]

That's an interesting concept. I think we see something a little bit like that with the. At the Battle of the Fords of Eisen, where they sort of kind of form a circle when they're completely outflanked. But this is a fairly typical defensive formation, a shield wall. I mean, if you've ever watched, right, Any film, any TV show portraying medieval battles, shield wall, you know, I mean, that's just. That's what.

[Don Marshall]

Exactly. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

But when you're talking about a bunch of guys that are six foot forward, have massive shields, that. That definitely means something. Word nerdery wise thongile means shield, fence or shield wall. It consists of two elements that actually aren't used anywhere else. Thond, T H A N D, not with the G thond for shield, and then the lanited form of Kyle. So Kyle C A I l becomes G A I l when it's lanited. So thongyl. And that Kyle element means fence or palisade of spikes. The footnote does give us a little bit more word nerdery, which always makes me happy. It includes the name of this formation in Quenya, what it is called a sandhasten or shield barrier. Both Quenya sanda and Sindarin thand. You can see the similarities there. Those both come from a primitive root, thanda, meaning shield. But the Quenya sandasten's second element comes from stama, which means bar or exclude. Tolkien explaining in the footnote that the Sindarin word used a different second element, Kyle. A fence or palisade of spikes and sharp stakes. This in primitive form, kegla was derived from a stem, ceg, meaning snag or barb, seen also in the primitive word kegya, hedge. Whence Sindarin Kai. So not Kyle, but Kai compared to the Morgai in Mordor, same element lanaida to guy from that same root, meaning hedge.

[Don Marshall]

Excellent. We're also told what he would have Done under the conditions better suited. If the land was flat or the orcs were coming up a slope, he would have formed a deer knife and taken the offensive. The description to cleave a way through them and scatter them in disarray. Giving us an idea. But the footnote gives us specifics as to what a deer knife.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. I mean, first we get the Quenya equivalent to dear Naith. It's Nernekta. And the meaning of both Quenya and Sindarin is man's spearhead. It's described as a wedge formation launched over a short distance against an enemy massing, but not yet a range, or against a defensive formation on open ground. I mean, let's just kind of compare these two. They're obviously very different. One is a defensive formation, one is an offensive formation formation. Right. You've got the shield wall versus a short range charge. Yeah, right.

[Don Marshall]

One is going to deal a lot of damage very quickly. You've got that spearhead, you're going to be able to sort of push forward. The other is, you know, quite literally the defensive circle that you see in so many, you know, TV and movies where they. They do have their own shield walls.

[Alan Sisto]

It's a line, but it's a line that knows to. Obviously they're trained then to bend back to create, you know, a smaller. Well, a smaller front so that they can be. So that if they are being flanked, they can. They can come around and be. Become that defensive circle. But as for the word nerdery, especially on Dirna or on its Kony equivalent, Nirnekta, we get more in that footnote as well. Kwenya nechte sindere Nith was applied to any formation or projection tapering to a point, a spearhead, a gore wedge, narrow promontory, and it comes from the root neck, meaning narrow. You're probably familiar with where it's used in the Nith of Lorien. That's the land at the angle of the celebrant and Anduin, which in the footnote Tolkien says at the actual junction of the rivers was narrower and more pointed than can be shown on a small scale map. Okay, so that's the tip. Yeah, Right.

[Don Marshall]

And so that first element, the Sindarin deer and Quenya ner, isn't explained in the footnote, but you should recognize that as man, as in male. In Sindarin, we see dear in names like Boron, Deer, Howl and Lindir.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that's right. And in Quenya, NER is present in ironically the names of a couple of women. Nerwen, man maiden. That's Galadriel's mother name, as well as the name Naer Nerdinel. That's the wife of Feanor. Now, the meaning of her name is unknown, but the ner element could, according to eldamo.org refer to her masculine strength of will. It would take that, being married to Feanor, you know, I mean, it sure would, you know, but, yeah, it's interesting. Those are the only elements, the only names that I could find that element in were actually women's names, even though the element means man. That's really interesting little twist. So, unable to create that offensive formation, especially since the orcs are already charging and they're coming down a hill, he chooses the defensive one. And that's when a shadow of foreboding is set to fall on Isildur. At this time, we get a better explanation of why that shadow of foreboding shows up in his all too brief conversation with his eldest son, Elendor.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah. He speaks of the cunning nature of this attack. There's two. They're too far away from either Moria, which is still occupied by Doran's folk, of course. Of course. Or Lorien. So there's no help from there at all. And they are still four days march away, or roughly at this point, about 100 miles from Thranduil's realm.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. And his son reminds him they're not just a troop of soldiers. You know, 200 guys in armor with weapons. They're carrying something of great worth, referring, of course, obliquely to the one ring.

[Don Marshall]

Right. And as the orcs close in, and again, this is close to 2,000 of them against 200 of his men. Isildur gives his esquire the shards of Narsil and commands him, you and a friend, take it and go. Save this at all costs.

[Alan Sisto]

Now. He calls him Okhtar, but that's not his name. As the footnote explains, Okhtar is the only name used in the legends, but it is probably only the title of address that Isildur used at this tragic moment, hiding his feelings under formality. And that's because Okhtar is simply the Quenya word for warrior or soldier. The footnote explaining it is the title for those soldiers who have been trained and are experienced, but who have not yet earned the rank of roquen, meaning knight. And that is a Quenya word combining the elements Rocco, horse and quin, person or individual. And the first element, Rocco, you almost certainly recognize, that's cognate with Sindarin Roch, as in Rohirrim.

[Don Marshall]

Oh, there you go. The footnote also adding that Oktar was dear to Isildur and of his own kin. That's all we get on him, though.

[Alan Sisto]

So who might be. Who knows? It's really interesting. Like, who is this guy? I like the speculation that it's the title of address. Hiding his feelings under formality. So there was deep emotion here. Not just fear of, like, we're about to get in a fight that we can't win, but like, I'm saying farewell to somebody who matters to me for the very last time in my life.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, yeah. This is a very, very emotional goodbye for sure.

[Alan Sisto]

I don't know who this is. Maybe it's.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, we don't know. And maybe it isn't his name, but he's referred to as Oktar in the Lord of the Rings. That's Elrond is retelling the events. Quote from the ruin of the Gladden Fields where Isildur perished. Three men only came ever back over the mountains after long wandering. One of these was Oktar, the Esquire of Isildur, who bore the shards of the Sword of Elendil. And he brought them to Valandil, the Heir of Isildur, who, being but a child, remained here in Rivendell.

[Alan Sisto]

We hear something similar in of the Rings of Power as well. Only three of his people came ever back over the mountains after long wandering, and of these, one was Okhtar, his Esquire, to whose keeping he had given the shards and of the Sword of Elendil.

[Don Marshall]

Oktar kisses Isildur's hand, grabs his buddy and gets the heck out of Dodge, running down the valley away from those attacking orcs. The. The footnote pointing out that in both of those passages we read, there are said to have been three people who got out.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. And that actually squares with an earlier draft. Christopher points out where is Sildur directed Oktar to take two companions with him. But he adds, in the text given here, the implication is the third was Estellmo. That's Elendor's esquire who survived the battle, as we'll find out later, probably next week. Right.

[Don Marshall]

We're going to meet him next week. We learn about the sources of this story. So both the Esquires of Isildur and Elendor made it out, along with whichever lucky guy Otar took with him.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a good point. Now, the orcs either didn't see Oktar and his buddy running away, or they frankly just didn't care. They stopped and they quickly got ready to charge this 200 man unit of Gondorian soldiers who are now building that defensive formation. There's going to be time involved and obviously they'd like to get there before that shield wall is full.

[Don Marshall]

Right. They starting with a salvo of arrows before charging in a wedge shaped formation. Which is just like Isildur would have done.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh yeah, yeah. Of course, that isn't all the orcs. You couldn't even do all the orcs. Right. This is going to be a great mass of their chief warriors. So it's the biggest and strongest guys that are being sent forward in that first charge.

[Don Marshall]

Right. Luckily though, the Dunedain shield wall held and the arrows hadn't done any damage at all against these superior Numenorean pieces of armor.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. The size disadvantage is still significant. Right. I mean, even the tallest orcs are way shorter than these very tall men, as we'll see next week when we dive into the appendix enticingly named Numenorean Linear Measures. The average Numenorean man is 6 foot 4. And when you combine that height with the size of their weapons. Swords, yes, but also spears. That means they're going to have a huge reach advantage.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, they really will. And that leads to a very broken charge. The orcs retreating and leaving behind piles of fallen orcs.

[Alan Sisto]

And that is just a vivid description, isn't it?

[Don Marshall]

It really is. It really is. Just, I don't necessarily. I mean when you're up against a shield wall like that and one falls and there's another behind you, you have that kind of.

[Alan Sisto]

And I mean with spears you might even be running two orcs through at once. I mean it's. This is a really violent and over quickly sort of charge. Yeah, this, this is. But you think about the piles of fallen orcs and I keep thinking of things like, you know, these moments where they just, they, they stand on the corpses of their, their fallen buddies to keep, you know, towards the goal. I think of Huron.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And how he chops off 70 times. He uttered that cry.

[Don Marshall]

Exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

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[Don Marshall]

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[Alan Sisto]

See you this summer.

[Don Marshall]

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[Alan Sisto]

That's right. And your support there is what enables me to work full time doing all of the Prancing Pony podcast production shows. That includes this show, the ppp, but also today's Tolkien Times, the short form Daily Show, Rings of Power Wrap up, which is just that seasonal show talking about the Amazon Television Project and then my streaming show the PPP plays. And when you join, you can Also get Episode postscripts ad free episodes, free merch, and more.

[Don Marshall]

And you can join our questions after Nightfall episodes or even appear as a guest in the north wing. Go to patreon.com prancingponypod to show your support and join the Fellowship of the Podcast.

[Alan Sisto]

And don't forget to rate and review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And please recommend us to your friends. You can do that directly on Spotify now. Just share the show with your friends. Don My friend, it is time for you to pick up the next reading.

[Don Marshall]

Gladly, Alan There was not only cunning in the attack, but fierce and relentless hatred. The orcs of the mountains were stiffened and commanded by grim servants of Barad Duration, sent out long before to watch the passes. And though it was unknown to them, the ring cut from his black hand two years before was still laden with Sauron's evil will, and called to all his servants for their aid. The Dunedain had gone scarcely a mile when the orcs moved again. This time they did not charge, but used all their forces. They came down on a wide front, which bent into a crescent and soon closed into an unbroken ring about the Dunedain. They were silent now, and kept at a distance, out of the range of the dreaded steel bows of Numenor. Though the light was fading fast, and Isildur had all too few archers for his need, he halted. There was a pause, though the most keen eyed among the Dunedain said that the orcs were moving inward stealthily, step by step. Elendor went to his father, who was standing dark and alone, as if lost in thought. Atarinya, he said, what of the power that would cow these foul creatures and command them to obey you? Is it then of no avail? Alas, it is not Khenia. I cannot use it. I dread the pain of touching it, and I have not yet found the strength to bend it to my will. It needs one greater than I now know myself to be. My pride has fallen. It should go to the keepers of the three.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, it should. Should have gone in the fire. Mr. Isildur. Well, you know, again, I don't think any mortal being is actually capable of destroying the Ring. That would be my argument, and I think it's it's Tolkien's own argument from the letters. When people write in and be like, dude, Frodo failed. And he's like, yeah, nobody could have done this anyway. Even Isildur couldn't have done this. We skipped the first paragraph because we have to skip something. But I want to cover it here Isildur believes the enemy is pulling back to the woods. I mean, of course they are. They just got their butts kicked. He sees the sun setting, and so he knows that night, when the Orcs are going to have their advantage, is coming and all too soon.

[Don Marshall]

So he orders that his men continue their march, but on a different course. Let's get down closer to the river, where the ground is flatter and the slope is less steep. That takes away at least the advance advantage that those Orcs have.

[Alan Sisto]

Correct? Yeah, it certainly lessens that. And Tolkien makes clear in the footnote that Isildur is very familiar with the terrain. We talked about that earlier when they left. I know that road. Well, he knows not only that road, he knows the land along that road. Tolkien writing. They had passed the deep depression of the Gladden fields, beyond which the ground on the east side of Anduin, which flowed in a deep channel, was firmer and drier. For the lie of the land changed. It began to climb northwards until as it neared the forest road and Thranduil's country, it was almost level with the eaves of the Greenwood. This Isildur knew well. So by moving both towards the river and then north, he's working to remove the terrain advantage that the Orcs had in that first attack.

[Don Marshall]

Right, and the narrator here speculates about what Isildur believes maybe the Orcs would give way even if their scouts followed them and then watched. And after all, we are told that's what Orcs typically do when they find their prey, could turn and bite.

[Alan Sisto]

Right. I mean, I would expect after they got their butts kicked like this, that those Orcs are going to go and either regroup and come back in a few days with reinforcements, or they're just going to leave and, like, follow us to see where we're going. Right, but if that's what Isildur believed, he was wrong. And that's where we pick up with the narrator explaining this isn't just a clever attack in terms of terrain and timing. Beyond that cunning that Isildur sees was a fierce and relentless hatred.

[Don Marshall]

That's right. These Orcs weren't just Moria Orcs. They were under the command of Grim Servants of the Tower, who'd been out here watching these passes.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. And even though these Orcs, even the Grim servants of Sauron, had no clue about the Ring's existence, let alone its capture by Isildur, it was still because it was a literal piece of Sauron's will calling to them all.

[Don Marshall]

Right, and the footnote here is long. So we're going to sum it up now, and we're going to cover it at length in the postscript. Basically, Sauron's troops had been sent out long before the end of the siege in order to attack troops crossing the Misty Mountains. They ignore the huge armies and even the shreds of Thranduil's forces who are returning to the forest.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. And they would not have known about Sauron's defeat. In fact, they likely thought he'd won. I mean, you know, they saw what happened with Thranduil's forces. You know, Oropher takes an army south and only a third of it goes back. And clearly Oropher's not leading it, so that looks like victory to me. They also would not have known anything about the One Ring. So while it might have driven some of the ferocity of the attack, it wasn't anything that the orcs would have been conscious of.

[Don Marshall]

And again, we'll cover more of this in the postscript for these two episodes. For now, though, let's get back to the text, where the soldiers have barely gone a mile, so about 20 minutes worth of marching when the orcs began maneuvering.

[Alan Sisto]

Now they're only maneuvering at this point. They're not charging. They are instead, and this is smart, they're using their numbers, their superior numbers to encircle the Dunedain. So we're not going to make you stop, but we're going to form a circle around you. We are surrounding you. You cannot get away. And if you try to shift direction, you're going to run into one of these walls of Orcs.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah. And especially because there are so few of them. Of the Dunedain, I should say their encirclement is all but ensured, given how many more times they are outnumbered. It is an overwhelming force.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. 10 to 1.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah. And they also. They're staying out of reach, as the text says. They're staying out of reach of the men Bows. The dreaded steel bows of Numenor.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay, we're going to talk about those for a little bit. They are described in a description of the island of Numenor. Again, you and I covered this in episode 345, near the beginning of last season.

[Don Marshall]

That's right. And there we read in later days in the wars upon Middle Earth, it was the bows of the Numenoreans that were most greatly feared. The men of the sea, it was said, send before them a great cloud, as a rain turned into serpents or a black hill. And in those days, the great cohorts of the king's archers used bows made of hollow steel with black feathered arrows. A full L long from point to notch.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a long arrow. Right. Our English unit of length called the L, spelled with two L's E, L, L is 45 inches. We're talking then about arrows that are more than three and a half feet in length.

[Don Marshall]

Wow.

[Alan Sisto]

Nearly four feet, three inches shy of four foot long arrows. That's long. Huge. And they're fired by bows made of hollow steel. Now we are going to get into that more with Brett because to me that seems like it's almost, if not absolutely impossible. I mean, the draw weight required, even hollow. The draw weight required for something that's as stiff as steel. That's a. That's a massive amount of draw strength.

[Don Marshall]

You'd have to have massive amount of draw strength. I mean, even if that's.

[Alan Sisto]

These dudes have biceps bigger than my. My legs. Right. They've got like ham hawks.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, exactly. Every Numenorean is like a John Cena or a Dwayne the Rock Johnson type body figure.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Don Marshall]

But I mean, the orcs are doing the smart thing though. They're staying out of bowshot. Even though A, A, it's getting dark and B, sealed or does not have many archers to begin with.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, we talked about that a little earlier about like, you know, maybe they just brought a few along for hunting. So they have food. Because the text actually says in the footnote no more than 20, it is said, for no such need had been expected. And I just want to say, hope for the best man, but plan for the worst.

[Don Marshall]

You gotta. You have to.

[Alan Sisto]

At least he had 20. Otherwise this was over.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, very quickly. Yeah. So Isildur stops and the orcs appear to begin tightening the circle. His eldest son, Elendor, goes to him and asks about the ring. Can't you command them with this? Can't you, you know, somehow use this on them?

[Alan Sisto]

It is a gift to the foes of Mordor. Right. He is channeling his inner Boromir here. But. But it's a valid question, right? We don't know yet at this point that it is just absolutely, irredeemably evil. I love that he calls him Atarinya. And that's actually a term we've seen before this season. It was a word used by Eldarion in speaking to his father, Meneldur. It simply means my father. Right. Attar is the element meaning father. We've seen that in Iluvatar, for instance, or in Adar. Right. The Name of the character in the Rings of Power who is just Father. Yeah, but Isildur knows. Now, look, in answer to my son's question, I cannot use the Ring. I'm. I'm afraid of how much it hurts to even touch it. Which is a pain that we're going to see him experience next week, by the way.

[Don Marshall]

And this footnote here is reminding us that we know about this pain from the Council of Elrond where Gandalf reports the words of the scroll scroll written by Isildur just a few weeks before this very moment.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. I mean, the text that he reads at the Council of Elrond was written just before he left. And there he writes, it was hot when I first took it, hot as a gleed, and my hand was scorched so that I doubt if ever again I shall be free of the pain of it. That's an intense description when you realize Bilbo and Frodo never talked about it physically hurting them, physically burning them. And it just has to do, it seems, with the fact that it's only recently come off of Sauron's finger. But the power that he must have had for it to still be that hot. Yeah, hot as a gleed.

[Don Marshall]

It's a special kind of evil. Yeah, special kind of evil.

[Alan Sisto]

And of course, gleed, for those of you who don't remember our word nerdery on that the first time when we encountered this word in the Council of Elrond, that's simply from an Old English word, glied referring to hot embers or live coals. So we're talking about something exceedingly painful to the touch. So he's just been called atarinya by his son. So he refers to his son as Senya. Now that is a word that isn't glossed anywhere but contextually appears to mean my child. From sen meaning child. Now that word sen for child is a word we only find in one other place. It's in Morgoth's ring, where we see the word Erusen and it means children of God. So sen is child or children. And then the yah is the possessive, like atarinya is my father, Senya, my child. Yeah, got it.

[Don Marshall]

And keep in mind, the pain, it's not the only problem because he knows he cannot force the ring to even do anything. He. He does not have the power.

[Alan Sisto]

That's correct. And I mean, let's put it this way. If it was painful, but he knew that he could do that, he would do it, right? He would save his men Even at the cost of the pain. It's that, why bother enduring that pain when I can't do anything with this anyway? I don't have the power. It's well beyond his capabilities as a mortal man to operate the ring. Yeah. And that's where we get to what I find to be like Isildur's greatest moment. This is a moment of repentance and redemption. And I've talked often at length about how Tolkien gives every character chance after chance, sometimes many, many chances. See Gollum or see Sodomon. Many chances to redeem themselves, to turn, to do the right thing. And here, this is a Sildura's moment. And he does it. He acknowledges his pride, and then he acknowledges his current humility. My pride has fallen. Right. His current state is. My pride is gone. And he knows that the ring has to go to the Elves, specifically the Keepers of the three. So he would have known, almost certainly that Elrond and Galadriel wore two of those three because they were there. You know, the question remains as to whether he knew that Kirdan held Narya because it had been Gil Galad's ring prior to the War of the Last Alliance. One assumes that he would have been privy to that information, but we don't know for sure. But certainly he knows Elrond and Galadriel would be ring bearers. He at least, at the very least, clearly knows Elrond is. That's where he's going.

[Don Marshall]

Exactly. And just to point out, Gandalf does not have Narya at this point. About another thousand years at that point.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. So it's definitely in Ciridan's hand. And that's true regardless of the story of the Chain of Possession, because there are some versions of the story where Ciridan got the ring to begin with and Gil Galad only gave his ring to Elrond later. So it was Cirdan, Gil Galad and Galadriel and then Gil Galad giving his ring to Elrond. And then there's others that have Gil Galad getting both, Galadriel getting the one, and then Gil Galad giving Narya to Ciridan before the War of the Last Alliance. So in either case, Cirdan has it. We just, you know, it's not Gandalf for sure.

[Don Marshall]

Probably would have been helpful to have a Gandalf or a Cirdan at this battle, but we've got a little bit more reading to go here. Alyn, would you please do the honors?

[Alan Sisto]

At that moment, there came a sudden blast of horns and the Orcs closed in on all sides, flinging themselves against the Dunedain with reckless ferocity. Night had come and hope faded. Men were falling for some of the greater. Orcs leaped up two at a time and dead or alive, with their weight bore down a dunedon so that other strong claws could drag him out and slay him. The orcs might pay 5 to 1 in this exchange, but it was too cheap. Cirion was slain in this way, and Aratan mortally wounded in an attempt to rescue him. Elendur, not yet harmed, sought Isildur. He was rallying the men on the east side where the assault was heaviest, for the Orcs still feared the Elendilmir that he bore on his brow and avoided him. Elendur touched him on the shoulder and he turned fiercely, thinking an orc had crept behind. My king, said Elendur, cirion is dead and Aretan is dying. Your last councillor must advise, nay, command you as you commanded Oktar. Go. Take your burden and at all costs bring it to the Keepers. Even at the cost of abandoning your men and me. King's son, said Isildur. I knew that I must do so, but I feared the pain. Nor could I go without your leave. Forgive me and my pride that has brought you to this doom. Elendor kissed him. Go. Go now, he said.

[Don Marshall]

Heartbreaking.

[Alan Sisto]

It is literally heartbreaking. So, so sad.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, yeah. We've had a lot of sidebars and brief digressions in this episode because up to this point, it's 23 footnotes. Good heavens, man, 23 of them. Fortunately, what we've just read, this one is more narrative only and has just one foot goat.

[Alan Sisto]

So let's get stuck into this fight because things are about to get worse. In case the word disaster in the title wasn't a giveaway.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, yeah. The orcs blow their horns and close in around them and they're literally hurling themselves against the the Dunedain.

[Alan Sisto]

And there's a line that stands out here. Night had come and hope faded. And it reminds me of the flip version of that thought, right. If we go to the fight at Helm's Deep, it had been going all night. Gambling says dawn is not far off, but dawn will not help us. I fear Aragorn's response. Yet dawn is ever the hope of men. Now, dawn, Marshall, is not ever the hope of men, but dawn is. And I want to be clear about that.

[Don Marshall]

You know, maybe one day I could be, though, Alan. That's what I'll strive to be.

[Alan Sisto]

Maybe. There we go. Don is not far off, but Don will not help us. No, he won't.

[Don Marshall]

I will do my best.

[Alan Sisto]

I know. I will try, but I just. I love this.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, yeah. This is. This is one of those lines that Tolkien writes that again, I. I'm reminded of World War I because, you know, Dawn, Tolkien in the trenches, just sitting there all night waiting for the. You know, waiting for death to come, essentially.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. For.

[Don Marshall]

For the most part. And this is a constant hope of, if you wake up, you live to see another day. It is the whole hope of all people that, you know, maybe something can change with the light. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Which is why you get the flip of this with night arriving. And now hope is fading because whatever advantage the orcs had is now going to be magnified and multiplied.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, exactly. And while that first attack was completely repelled with no losses, obviously, this one very different. Some of the men are falling. The orcs are essentially, essentially performing, you know, suicide attacks. They're literally leaping up in pairs. They're using their weight, whether they're dead or not. They're trying to pull the men down so that the others can kill them. There's just. There's so much going on.

[Alan Sisto]

This really is. And of course, they're losing five to one with this technique. But first of all, Orcs don't care about losses. And second, they can afford that, Right, That's. It's cheap because they outnumbered the more like 10 to 1. And that's where things get really bad.

[Don Marshall]

Things get awful. We learn that two of Isildur's sons die in this manner. And Cirion and Aratan, Elendor, meanwhile, the eldest of Isildur's sons and his heir, still unhurt and is looking for his father in the fray, finding him on the side where the attack is the strongest.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. And he's there because the Orcs fear the Elendilmir and they are avoiding Isildur. That makes me ask this question, Don, you've got to push pull of the ring. And the Elendilmir, the ring is pulling these Orcs towards the men, drawing them to attack even in numbers where they're going to die. But at the same time as they get closest to it, the guy carrying the ring is also wearing the Elendil mirror, and they're terrified of that. This is an interesting spot for them to be in. They don't know about the ring, so it's an unconscious pull. They know about the Elendil mirror. It's quite visible and terrifying to them, and yet they are overwhelmed with this desire to kill the men and capture their leader. That's not gonna be easy. No.

[Don Marshall]

And this really feels like just a cacophony of so many different orders of magic and magnitude being laid one on top of another. You've got, you know, these incredibly powerful men who are still outnumbered. You've got Isildur, who is this shining beacon of hope, the Elendilmir, Very visible with all of being this sort of, like, symbol of. Of truly maybe the dawn, even with the jewels in it.

[Alan Sisto]

And just become star.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah. And it. It's the. The fact that they don't know about the ring, I think, has been one of the more interesting parts of. Of this portion, because it's that unconscious desire that. Almost instinctual to just go and kill.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Don Marshall]

That these orcs have. And it's honestly, to me, terrifying.

[Alan Sisto]

Utterly terrifying. It's. It's an interesting conundrum here for them. I'm almost imagining, like, when you take a magnet, but you've got the wrong poles and you're trying to push them together, but they repel. And it's like, I. I want to get to this guy, but I don't want to get to this guy. How about you do this, buddy? Yeah. So Elendor then taps his father on the shoulder, nearly getting killed for his effort. Right. I mean, Silver turns around ready to kill him. And what he says to him is hard to hear. Isn't really.

[Don Marshall]

Is he? He gives his father, who is, keep in mind, the King of Arnor, the high King of the realms, in exile. And here is his son, giving his last piece of advice. Your other sons are dead and dying. I need to tell you what to do. And that is to do what you told your Esquires to do. Leave here now and take the ring with you.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Whatever it takes. Just like you told Okhtar with the shards of Narsil. Get this to the Keepers. And that's just a reference to the Three Rings again, even if that means abandoning all of us, abandoning your men and abandoning your son. And I want to be clear, folks. Elendor knows. He and the rest of these men are going to die. There's zero chance of victory here.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah. This is a death sentence. No doubt in my mind. He knows exactly what's going to happen. This is a last stand. This is a way to draw them out so that Isildur can get away.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. You've got to leave. You must leave us.

[Don Marshall]

And Isildur knows that's what he has to do. But he is, as he said, afraid of the Pain and is unwilling to leave without his son's permission.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Don Marshall]

Which is, again, heartbreaking. These are his men. This is his son, or his sons. And now singular son. He is responsible for them and you know, otherwise. He's not abandoning them. But, you know, here he is, stuck in an impossible, truly impossible situation.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I mean, like we talked about earlier, or speculated, at least if. If he could command them at whatever cost to himself, he would do so. He knows he can't, so why endure that terrible pain? And yet he knows now he's going to have to endure that pain.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, exactly. And he asks for forgiveness for the pride that has led to all of this. And then in the footnote, the only one we get in this passage, thankfully, we are reminded that the pride here is the pride that led him to keep the Ring against the Council of Elrond and Cirdan, that it should be destroyed in the fires of Orodruin.

[Alan Sisto]

So let's go back to the Council for a moment to get Elrond's retelling of that. He says Isildur took it as should not have been. It should have been cast then into Rodruin's fire, nigh at hand where it was made, but few marked what Isildur did. He alone stood by his father in that last mortal contest. And by Gil Galad, only Cirdan stood, and I. But Isildur would not listen to our counsel. This I will have as weregild for my father and my brother, he said. And therefore, whether we would or no, he took it to treasure it. I want to at least mention, whether we discuss this or not, I don't know. I just want to throw this out there because I want listeners to be thinking about this. That initial pride of. I'm going to take this as Weregild for my father and brother. Representative in many ways, of the power of the Ring, as it begins its seduction, as it begins taking Isildur as its addict, really. But here we have repentance of that. Not only has my pride fallen, but he says here specifically, forgive me and my pride that has brought you to me this doom. How would Yudan compare Isildur's choices here and parallels to Boromir?

[Don Marshall]

Oh, great question. I think Boromir is so much more of a character that has had the burdens of his entire life fighting the long defeat. And Isildur is so of almost on the cusp of victory. So they're. They're opposites to me in my mind. And. And so with. With Isildur keeping the Ring, that's almost a prize to be. To be won. To be kept. With Boromir wanting the Ring, that is almost a. Not necessarily a prize, but a weapon, as he, I believe, calls it in the book. A tool to be used not necessarily out of pride, but of. Out of necessity. Even so, I see those two, in this instance, at least, almost as kind of opposites in that they are both from Gondor but they needed the Ring for different reasons.

[Alan Sisto]

I definitely like that approach in terms of the first half of their story, right. With Isildur's pride in taking the Ring and Boromir's desire for the Ring. Different reasons, different motivations. Pride still being at the core of both of them. In the sense, for Boromir, it's more like a pride of, hey, we're the only people standing up against Sauron, you're wrong. We're powerful enough to wield this Ring. Against Sauron. You're also wrong. So pride's still very much at the root of both of their early decisions. What about their repentance here? Right. I mean, I look at Boromir. Boromir's repentance arguably came a little late, right? Yes, but it came right. So I think it's easy for us to picture the incredible performance of Sean Bean and and Viggo Mortensen in that scene in the films. And it is perhaps the most moving moment in the films, at least for me. But it is different in the books. He doesn't get to talk as much. Boromir, he very much is very close to dying. But what he says right away is the same repentance that we get, I think, here with Isildur saying, forgive me and my pride that has led you to this. I look at Boromir and he says, I tried to take the Ring from Frodo. I am sorry. I have paid. And then you see the dead Orcs and he says, they've gone. The Halflings. The Orcs have taken them, I think. They're not dead. Orcs bound them. And then he says, farewell, Aragorn. Go to Minas Tirith and save my people. I have failed. And that's the last word he speaks. Yeah, I mean, Aragorn's like, no, no, no, you didn't fail. You've conquered. And he's right. He has conquered. He lost the battle with the Ring, but he won the war with the Ring. And Boromir did not speak again, the text tells us so. I like what I see here in terms of the parallel between these two characters because both of them realize, both of them too, Late that the ring is not something that they can control, it's not something they can use. It is wrong to keep it in the case of Isildur. It is wrong to try to take it in the case of Boromir. They both recognize this, and they both then make choices in accordance with that repentance. With Boromir, it is defending the Hobbits to his death, trying to do what he can to save Mary and Pippin. With Isildur, it is doing what he can, even though it's the hard thing to try to get the ring to the keepers of the three. In both cases, they fail. Boromir doesn't save the Hobbits and Isildur doesn't get the ring to the keepers of the three. But I just feel like this is such a rich parallel between these two. But I love that contrast you pointed out about kind of the first halves of their stories. Because you're right. Very much right.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Good stuff. Oh, man. So Elendor kisses him farewell and insists he go with no further delay. And that's the end of this week. Nob, not yet harmed, sought Barlaman. He was rallying the men on the east side where the pile of mail was the heaviest for the letters, still feared the canvas bag that he bore and avoided him. Don, what does Barliman have in his terrifying bag for us today?

[Don Marshall]

Oh, Alan, it is a question I have gotten many, many times in my comments section. And that is, why is it that Elrond, or even Cirdon for that matter, did not intervene when Isildur decided that he was going to keep the ring? And if they had, what would the outcome have been?

[Alan Sisto]

That is a question I've seen as well. I don't want to denigrate or dismiss the folks who ask that question because it's a valid question, but there's. I mean, Elrond and Ciridan are not going to pick him up and throw him off into the Cracks of Doom. They're not?

[Don Marshall]

No, no, no, no, of course not.

[Alan Sisto]

They know what the right thing is to do, but they cannot force him to do it any more than they could be forced to do things themselves. Free will is a thing. And though the elves and you can go back to the Ainolindele for this, they actually have a little less free will that all else is as fate, that the music is written. But they do still have options within the experiences that they have. They don't have as much free will as men do. A lot more complicated than that. You know, let's go back to pretty much listen to all of season one to get that. But the idea being they know and therefore they're not going to do anything. But let's take your question. You ask, what if they had decided to do something? What would they have done? See, here's where we get into. Whether they would have been able to destroy the ring themselves if they had taken it.

[Don Marshall]

Exactly. That was sort of my next follow up question. I don't think so either. I think Tolkien has stated it.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, Elrond's the most likely to be able to, but I don't think so.

[Don Marshall]

I think Tolkien made it very clear. There's no one Elf, Dwarf or human or Hobbit that could of their own free will release the ring into the fire on its own. I think that's why it was sort of a divine intervention almost of Gollum and Frodo tripping and falling. And it might have had to have been that situation again, the finger of Iluvatar intervening. Exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, we know. Certainly no mortal would have had the power to throw away the ring.

[Don Marshall]

Sure, sure.

[Alan Sisto]

It's a valid question to ask whether somebody like Elrond or Cirdan or hypothetically somebody like say a Tom Bombadil could have discarded the ring. Tom would have just lost it, put it in a drawer somewhere. Would he have bothered to throw it away? I don't, I don't, I don't think so. You know, it's a pretty thing, It's a pretty shiny thing. Just like the, the brooch that he gave to, you know, it's a cold bear. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I, I don't know. I think, I think there's a very strong argument to be made for the claim that neither of those two could have thrown away the ring had they taken it from Isildur literally. They would have had to like hurl Isildur off the precipice themselves, which they would never have done. They're not going to commit murder. You know. The ends do not justify the means for the free peoples of Middle Earth. It's why we can honestly look at characters like Denethor and say that we judge him to be wrong in many respects because of his ends justify the means philosophy and many ways. It's why Boromir's decision to try to take the ring was wrong in the first place. The ends don't justify the means. Even if you could use this ring to defeat Sauron, you don't have the right to do this to, to take it from Frodo. Boromir doesn't understand what it would do to Frodo to have the ring taken from him. I don't think Frodo comprehends what it would do to him.

[Don Marshall]

No. I don't think anyone does.

[Alan Sisto]

No. But, you know, and again, you know, he. Boromir obviously repents of that, but. Yeah, that's a good question. I think it's a question without a firm answer. But I think if we're going to get to as close to a firm answer as we can, it is that there's nothing they could have actually done. Okay. It was going to be the way it was going to be. Kind of comes back to Galadriel saying, you know, what does she want when Frodo offers her the ring? That what shall be, shall be. That's it. That's going to be what it is. Yeah.

[Don Marshall]

Nothing more you can do.

[Alan Sisto]

All right, folks, thank you for joining us for another episode of the Prancing Pony podcast. Please come back again next week when Isildur meets his tragic end and Aragorn finds a surprise.

[Don Marshall]

Alan and I do want to thank the members of Team PPP editor Jordan Rannells, Barleyman Becca Davis, Social media manager Casey Hilsey, Event and Patreon community coordinator Katie McKenna, graphic artist Megan Collins, video editor Yonatan Lazins and website guru Phil Dean.

[Alan Sisto]

Please take a minute to check out the prancingponypodcast.com that's where you'll find show notes, outtakes, Prancing Pony Ponderings, and our fully revamped PPP merch store. Now, that storefront is where you can get all sorts of cool PPP merch, including the amazing chapter art that Megan's been doing for us for nearly four seasons.

[Don Marshall]

Now, we are all about the books here at Prancing Pony Podcast, so be sure to to visit our library page. We try to make sure that any book we've mentioned on the show is linked here for you to purchase. We do get a small amount of compensation when you make that purchase, so

[Alan Sisto]

thank you for that. Indeed. And we also want to thank our patrons at the Kiridan's contribution tier. I'll start with Demay in Alaska, Chad in Texas, Joseph in Michigan, Kathy from North Carolina, Brian in the uk, Jerry from Washington, Irwin from the Netherlands, Ben in Minnesota. Minnesota, Anthony in Texas, Zaksu in Illinois, Joshua in Massachusetts, Lucy in Texas, Erica in Texas, James in Massachusetts, Ann in Kentucky and Sean in New Jersey.

[Don Marshall]

There is also Mason in California, Maureen from Massachusetts, Olivia in London, Robert in Arizona, Nick in Wisconsin, Lewis in South Carolina. Thomas in Germany, Craig in California, Kevin in Massachusetts, Joe in Maryland, D Scott in California, Jeffrey in Michigan, Paul in Colorado, David from Connecticut and Teresa from Texas. Thank you all very much for your support indeed.

[Alan Sisto]

Thank you.

[Don Marshall]

Make sure you don't miss any episodes of the Prancing Pony Podcast. Subscribe now through Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or your favorite podcast app.

[Alan Sisto]

One last thing. As always, don't forget to send your thoughts, comments and, well, most of all, your More battlefield tactics for facing an army of Orcs at 10 to 1 odds to [e-mail] once you figure out

[Don Marshall]

how to defeat all of those orcs, let us know. Barlamon does have a lot of mail to sort through though, so we'll try to get to it just as soon as we are able.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. As always though, this has been far too short a time to spend amongst such excellent and admirable listeners. But until next time, I have been

[Don Marshall]

Don Marshall, the obscure Lord of the Rings Rings Facts guy, having made only one dad joke this entire episode, for which I am very proud of myself. And I am joined by the incomparable man of the West, Mr. Alan Sisto. There's a new way to sweetgreen Meat Wraps Handheld, hearty and made for life on the move. With bold, chef crafted flavors, fresh ingredients and over 40 grams of protein, they're built to satisfy without slowing you down. Try wraps today in the app [e-mail] available at all participating locations.

[Alan Sisto]

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