414 – With or Without You

Summary

The Prancing Pony Podcast

Episode 414 – With or Without You
Date: May 24, 2026
Host: Alan Sisto
Guest Host: Don Marshall

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Episode Overview

This episode continues the deep-dive exploration of "The Disaster of the Gladden Fields" from Tolkien's Unfinished Tales—the dramatic account of Isildur's final moments, the fate of the One Ring, and how this pivotal event echoes through the lore of Middle-earth. Joined by Don Marshall, the “obscure Lord of the Rings facts guy,” Alan and Don dissect Tolkien’s meticulous storytelling, linger over textual mysteries, and inject the usual warmth, banter, and puns into the tragic saga of Isildur. The hosts also welcome a listener, Sam H., to the "North Wing" for a delightful Tolkienian lightning round, and chase down topics from Numenorean units of measurement to the fate of Isildur's bones—plus a healthy dose of word-nerdery and lore-tangents.

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Main Discussion Themes

• The Death of Isildur and the Disaster of the Gladden Fields
• The fate and will of the One Ring
• The Elendilmir and Numenorean Heirlooms
• The aftermath: lore, legacy, and lingering questions
• Height, measurement, and the dwindling of Middle-earth's peoples
• The evolving presence (or absence) of Halflings

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1. North Wing Listener Segment: Meet Sam H.

[04:20–11:46]

Highlights:

• Sam H., from Bloomington, Indiana, shares their Tolkien journey:
  • Came to Tolkien via the movies as a child, then read The Hobbit (on librarian’s advice), then The Lord of the Rings, then The Silmarillion.
  • Loves Tolkien for the escapism and universal themes:
    "So much of Tolkien's writings just permeates into my life." [06:44]
• Favorite Works:
  • Legendarium: “Children of Húrin” and Book III of The Lord of the Rings (the splitting of the Fellowship).
  • Non-legendarium: "Leaf by Niggle."
• Lightning Round:
  • Favorite character: Gimli
  • Favorite First Age Elf: Finrod Felagund
  • Rohan or Gondor? Rohan.
  • Balrog wings? "Metaphorical. I mean, it’s just a bunch of smoke behind them." [10:09]
  • Merry or Pippin? Sam sees himself as a Merry.
  • Favorite poem/song: "Durin's Day," Gimli’s song in Moria.
  • Dream Middle-earth destination: Meduseld (Golden Hall of Rohan)
• "I want to see the Golden Halls. Khazad-dûm at its height would be amazing, but Meduseld would just be gorgeous." [11:24]

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2. The Disaster at Gladden Fields – The Death of Isildur

[12:14–52:30]

Isildur’s Last Stand and the Power of the Ring

[12:14–38:03]

• Reading: The critical moment—Isildur dons the Ring to escape, endures its agony, uses the Elendilmir, and flees.
  • The Elendilmir (Star of Elendil) blazes "red and wrathful," likely reacting to the Ring's presence (like a “Kyber crystal” for you Star Wars fans) [15:42].
  • Notable quote:
    "But the Elendilmir of the west could not be quenched. And suddenly it blazed forth, red and wrathful as a burning star…" [12:14]
• Invisibility and What the Ring Conceals:
  • The Ring makes only objects touching skin or carried on the body invisible unless they are sources of their own light (e.g., Elendilmir, Sting, Phial of Galadriel). A torch or glowing weapon would still be seen! [19:39]

Isildur in Despair

[38:03–52:30]

• Escape and Tragedy:
  • Isildur, despite prodigious Numenorean endurance (already marched 21 miles!), swims the Anduin by night, fighting exhaustion, heavy current, and the marshy Gladden Fields.
  • "Little hope to gain the other shore"—it’s a desperate, nearly superhuman feat.
  • Turning point: The Ring slips from his finger ("by chance or chance well used") and is lost in the river. Overwhelming loss is quickly replaced by relief—echoing both Bilbo and Frodo’s later relinquishing of the Ring. [46:28]
    • “At first, so overwhelming was his sense of loss that he struggled no more and would have sunk and drowned. But swift as it had come, the mood passed. The pain had left him. A great burden had been taken away.” [35:55]
  • Isildur, now visible (and star-lit by the Elendilmir), is spotted and killed by Orc archers; his body lost to the river.
  • "So passed the first victim of the malice of the masterless Ring..." [38:02]
• Literary parallels: The swift change from Ring-induced loss to freedom parallels Bilbo (“A spasm of anger... then a look of relief and a laugh. ‘Well, that's that…’”) [46:43] and Frodo after the Ring’s destruction (“in his eyes there was peace now; neither strain of will nor madness nor any fear. His burden was taken away…”) [47:23]

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3. How Do We Know This? Evidence and Later Discoveries

[52:37–66:41]

Eyewitnesses and Later Lore

[52:37–59:57]

• Surviving witnesses: Okhtar & companion (carried Narsil's shards), plus Elendur’s esquire Estelmo (“the one who hopes”).
• Rescue parties from local woodmen helped delay the Orcs' pillaging; the wounds of history preserved by survivors and later research.
• The full story, including Isildur’s fate, was only pieced together during Aragorn’s reign in the Fourth Age, following new evidence.

The Rediscovery at Orthanc

[64:27–75:22]

• During Aragorn’s reign, Orthanc is cleared out; among the spoils are:
  • The empty gold case (that held the Ring!).
  • The original Elendilmir (Star of Elendil), thought lost for 3,000+ years.
• Word-nerdery break: The comparison of Saruman to a “jackdaw” (a thieving, vain bird, not a dragon)—a pointed, multi-layered insult. Folklore: jackdaws as vain, thieving, putting on airs—much like Saruman in his decline. [70:56]
• This ancient Elendilmir far predates the replacement made for Valandil, and Aragorn keeps it for use only at High Days in the North Kingdom.

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4. Appendix: Measurement, Stature, and The Diminishing of Great Peoples

[97:22–109:46]

• Numenorean Measures:
  • The "ranga" is about 38 inches (longer than a yard), with 2 rangar being "man high"—making average Numenorean height 6'4", and historically, even taller (Elendil: 7'11”!). [106:53]
  • Comparisons to Elves: Galadriel, “man-high” (i.e., 6'4”). Eomer and Aragorn of similar height; Rohirrim shorter due to "broader and heavier build.”
• Halflings (“Pereianath”):
  • Hobbits were 3 to 4 feet tall; "halfling" is a Numenorean term meaning “half as tall.”
  • The name and knowledge of hobbits slowly spread—Boromir recognizes Frodo by both prophecy and lore.
  • Both Numenoreans and hobbits have “dwindled”—the former due to separation from Númenor, the latter due to lifestyle changes (forced into secrecy as "big folk" take over the world).
    • "They became a fugitive and secret people, driven…to refuge in forest or wilderness…" [117:29]

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5. Lore Mailbag & Speculation

[119:05–124:51]

• What if Saruman had found the One Ring at Gladden Fields?
  • Don: Could he hide his power, or would the Ring’s temptation reveal him?
  • Alan: "Saruman, because he desires the One Ring…would move too soon and proclaim himself to be the new Dark Lord…"
  • Quotes from The Council of Elrond cite Saruman’s ambitions (and Gandalf’s suspicion that Saruman would not be subtle with such power).
  • "I think Saruman regrets…within a few days…his choice..." [124:51]

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Memorable Quotes & Notable Moments

• On Isildur’s anguish and redemption:
  • Alan: "He knows that this is a result of his pride. That's why at the end of last episode…the highlight was him saying, 'Forgive me. And the pride that has brought us to this.' It's got to be a heavy burden for him…"
• On the Ring’s "will":
  • Don: "By chance or chance well used, it had left his hand and gone where he could never hope to find it again. At first, so overwhelming was his sense of loss..."
• On the long-hidden Elendilmir:
  • Alan: "This is pretty incredible. I mean, remember, it is 6,000 years old. If we’re looking at that in the terms of the primary world…we’re talking about something going back to the earliest days of Sumerian civilization." [88:12]
• On diminishing and the world’s change:
  • Don: "The much later dwindling of the Prancing Pony must be due to…its keeper, Barliman Butterbur. He became a fugitive and secret person…"

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Sam H. in the North Wing: 04:27–11:46
• Isildur’s Death & Escape: 12:14–38:03
• Loss & Aftermath of the Ring: 35:35–52:30
• Historical evidence (Eyewitness, Elendilmir, Orthanc): 52:37–81:15
• Jackdaw/Saruman, Word Nerdery: 70:56–73:44
• Numenorean Height & Linear Measures Appendix: 97:22–109:46
• Halflings, “Dwindling” Appendix: 109:52–118:49
• Mailbag: What if Saruman had gotten the Ring?: 119:05–124:51

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Final Thoughts

This episode is a masterclass in Tolkienian detective work—piecing together texts, appendices, and speculation to breathe life into a foundational Middle-earth tragedy. With warmth and wit, Alan and Don put Isildur’s suffering, his failure and fleeting redemption, and the Ring’s malice under the microscope, showing how much Tolkien’s unfinished tales still have to offer.

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Next episode: A long chat with Dr. Brett Devereaux, military & ancient historian, promising even greater depths of lore, history, and pop-culture crossovers.

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"He loomed up a monstrous shadow of fear with a piercing eye like a star. They loosed their poisoned arrows at it and fled needlessly. For Isildur, unarmed, was pierced through the heart and throat... So passed the first victim of the malice of the masterless Ring." [37:50]

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Transcript

[Alan Sisto]

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[Don Marshall]

Well, that's cool. No, you don't understand. It went perfectly.

[Alan Sisto]

Real offer down to the penny.

[Don Marshall]

They're picking it up tomorrow. Nothing went wrong.

[Alan Sisto]

So what's the problem?

[Don Marshall]

That is the problem. Nothing in my life goes to smoothly. I'm waiting for the catch.

[Alan Sisto]

Maybe there's no catch. That's exactly what a catch would want me to think. Wow.

[Don Marshall]

You need to relax. I need to knock on wood.

[Alan Sisto]

Do we have wood? Is this table wood?

[Don Marshall]

I think it's laminate.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay, yeah, that's good.

[Don Marshall]

That's close enough. Car selling without a catch.

[Alan Sisto]

Sell your car today on Carvana.

[Don Marshall]

Pickup fees may apply.

[Alan Sisto]

Good evening, little masters, and welcome to episode 414 of the Prancing Pony podcast, where, well, if I run like a stag from the hounds, the orcs won't have to bother killing me.

[Don Marshall]

You're telling me you're not a man of strength and endurance that few of this age can equal?

[Alan Sisto]

Well, maybe kind of. In my dreams, Don. In my dreams.

[Don Marshall]

Folks, pull up a bench in the common room and join us. I am Don, the obscure Lord of the Rings facts guy. And I am here with the man of the west who often vanishes into the night, Alan Sisto.

[Alan Sisto]

Only when I'm wearing a hoodie that can cover my Elendil Mir even better. That's right, folks, join us as Isildur feels a great burden taken away just before he's pierced by arrows. As we wrap up our two episode look the disaster of the Gladden fields from Unfinished Tales.

[Don Marshall]

It has been an absolute pleasure looking at this in a long form way, having only really looked. I mean, it's. It's delightful. You learn so much about Isildur that, that we really don't get anywhere else. It's been delightful.

[Alan Sisto]

100%. It's a lot of fun. Yeah.

[Don Marshall]

Folks, no matter whether you came to Middle Earth through the books, the films, the TV show, or something else, each of you is welcome here in our common room. The Prancing Pony Podcast continues in our 10th season of Reading and talking our way through Middle Earth with conversations, digressions, and even speculations, no doubt.

[Alan Sisto]

Not to mention a few puns and bad jokes here and there. But our purpose is to dive deep into the lore, to discuss the story, our favorite characters and themes, Tolkien's inspirations, and a whole lot more.

[Don Marshall]

And while we can say that we take the work seriously, the same cannot be said for ourselves. We are just a couple of friends chatting at a pub, making Batman jokes. And we're very glad that you have

[Alan Sisto]

joined us, and I'm sure you'll be glad you joined as well. But before we get to today's chapter discussion, it's time for us to catch up with one of our listeners in the North Wing.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Barlow and Butterbur had a room or two in the North Wing at the Prancing Pony Inn, made special for hobbits. And this is our place, made special for some of our listeners to give us a chance to get to know them.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Now, rooms at the North Wing are a little hard to come by, so only our patrons at the Elronds Honorarium and Kierdan's contribution tiers are eligible. If you'd like to be one of the next patrons to join us, be sure to check out patreon.com.

[Barliman Butterbur]

please do. We've got a waiting list for the North Wing right now, but we'll get to them all soon and we'll make room for more if necessary.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Well then, Matt, why don't we go ahead and welcome today's guest to the North Wing, Sam H. Sam, welcome.

[Sam H]

Thank you, guys. Great to be here, warm and content after a lovely meal from Bob and Nob.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm glad they were able to get your foodie on top.

[Don Marshall]

Very good.

[Alan Sisto]

And hopefully they stabled your horse well.

[Don Marshall]

All right.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Well, Sam, tell us a bit about yourself. Where are you from, what do you do, and what do your loved ones think of all this Tolkien stuff? You're into that sort of thing?

[Sam H]

Yeah. So I am from around Bloomington. Indiana. I am currently an aspiring novelist working on my very first novel. And, you know, most of my family give me a lot of just. Oh, well, that's nice.

[Alan Sisto]

Whenever I told the little condescending head pats.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah.

[Sam H]

Yes, yes, yes. I have a. There's a couple that, like, kind of know a little bit, but most of them, it just goes right over their head, which I'm fine with.

[Alan Sisto]

All right, well, the question we ask everybody who comes to the Prancing Pony, and I'm sure you've heard it enough that you have hopefully pondered your answer. When and how did you first discover Tolkien's works? What was your experience like, and what is it that keeps you coming back?

[Sam H]

Yeah, so I was one of. Probably going to be a very large majority soon. I came through the movies. I saw it on VHS.

[Don Marshall]

Wow.

[Sam H]

In the early 2000s, and I was just enraptured by it. I went to, I think, my elementary school librarian. I was probably first grade maybe, and I told her I wanted to read Lord of the Rings. She was very kind and instead gave me the Hobbits.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, yeah, first grade, that's probably the better choice.

[Sam H]

Yes. And I just developed Hour Day. I read it so much, I think I even got in trouble a couple times for only reading it and not other books. But so. And then it was probably in fourth or fifth grade, I read the Lord of the Rings for the very first time, and it just. It sunk the claws deeper into me. Seventh grade, I read the Silmarillion for the very first time right after reading the Iliad and the Odyssey.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, wow. That's a. I like that. Okay.

[Sam H]

I was kind of a weird kid when it came to books.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sam H]

But so, yeah, I just absolutely loved it. I love the escapism and how just no matter what is going on in your life, you can always find something that pertains to your life in different aspects of the Lord of the Rings and the Legendary as a whole. So much of his. Of Tolkien's writings just permeates into my life.

[Alan Sisto]

Good. That's awesome.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Do you have any Tolkien goals that you'd like to share? Tracking down a special book for your collection? Going to a Moot? Anything like that?

[Sam H]

Oh, I mean, I would love to go to any of the Moots. I just attended my very first online moot. It was the Prancing Pony Moot. It was amazing. Loved it. Cannot wait to attend in person. I mean, I would love to go to OXA Moot, though. That. That's the ultimate goal.

[Alan Sisto]

Yep. I Can I can understand that.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Good answer.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. All right, Sam, which is your favorite book in the legendarium and why? And then do you have a favorite non legendary of work and if so, what is it?

[Sam H]

Okay, I'm going to answer the non legendarium first because that's easier for me. That is leaf by niggle. Hands down my favorite.

[Alan Sisto]

Excellent, excellent choice.

[Sam H]

As for in the legendarium, I'm going to have to give it up to two. I got to give you a two one Children of Harren. Absolutely love. And then also specifically book three of Lord of the Rings.

[Alan Sisto]

Ah, yes. That is the best individual of the six books. The one where the fellowship is split and you're following Merry and Pippen and then the three hunters. Yeah.

[Sam H]

Yes, absolutely love it.

[Alan Sisto]

That really showcases, I think, Tolkien's incredible story weaving abilities. Like the whole interlacing, it's just mind blowing how beautifully complex that is.

[Sam H]

The fact that he's able to keep all that in track. Like, it's amazing.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah. And he didn't even have an Excel spreadsheet to do it in. I mean, the guy's just doing it on piece of paper. Of course, I think you earned Matt's appreciation when you mentioned Shim of Hurin. So there's that.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Yes, absolutely. I also always appreciate when folks pick a specific book out of Lord of the Rings because you can go one of two extremes. You can say, my favorite book is the Lord of the Rings or you go the complete opposite end where it's like, yes, actually, this half of Return

[Don Marshall]

of the King is my favorite.

[Alan Sisto]

I like that. Yeah. I at least try to get people down to one of the three volumes. I mean, I'll try to pin him down because saying Lord of the Rings, I know Tolkien. Yes. It's one book. I get it.

[Barliman Butterbur]

It did say it's one book.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, sir. It is one book.

[Sam H]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

All right. We have a lightning round, don't we, Matt?

[Barliman Butterbur]

We've got a lightning round. So let's start off. Who is your favorite character in the Lord of the Rings?

[Sam H]

Oh, I'd have to go with Gimli. Big fan of the Dwarves in general. But I mean, Gimli in the books is just amazing. I absolutely love him. Good choice, John Rhys Davies. But yeah, Gimli in the book.

[Alan Sisto]

Yep. Who's your favorite First Age elf?

[Sam H]

Finrod Feligund. Excellent choice to say there's no, there's no contest there.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Rohan or Gondor?

[Sam H]

Rohan. I absolutely love the Horse Lords.

[Don Marshall]

Yep.

[Alan Sisto]

All right. Balrog wings. Actual or metaphorical?

[Don Marshall]

Metaphorical.

[Sam H]

I mean, it's just a bunch of smoke behind them.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm just waiting to smoke in mirrors. That's right. I keep waiting for somebody to give us the wrong answer. We can say thank you for joining us. Bye. Bye. All right. No, I'm kidding.

[Don Marshall]

All right, all right.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Do you consider yourself a merry or a Pippin?

[Sam H]

I view myself as a Mary. I'm sure some people will say I'm a Pippin.

[Don Marshall]

I am a Mary.

[Alan Sisto]

All right, Sam, your favorite poem or song in the legendarium.

[Sam H]

Well, this is not going to be too much of a surprise with previous answers, but it's going to be what I refer to as Durin's Day, the poem or the song that Gimli sings in the minds of Moria. I just love the. How it shows the progression of time and the fall from greatness that the world is going into.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, I agree. I have to say though, given your. Your mention of Rohan, I thought you were going to say when this didn't surprise us very much. We're going to get one of the alliterative verses. Perhaps the. The mounds of Munberg.

[Sam H]

Not going to lie. If they had ever given the oath of a oral in all would have been the number one.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah, I'm still waiting. One. All right, Matt, one more.

[Barliman Butterbur]

All right, what's the one place in Middle Earth you wish you could visit?

[Sam H]

Megasel. Oh, I. I want to see the Golden Halls. I mean, yeah, I would love to see Khazad Dum in its highest, but oh, megacel would just be gorgeous.

[Alan Sisto]

It sure would. Those tapestries and all the inlays on the floor. Ah, great answers. Well, thank you, Sam. We have really enjoyed having you here in the north wing. Thanks for stopping by.

[Sam H]

Thank you, guys.

[Don Marshall]

Great to be here.

[Alan Sisto]

All right, folks, it's time for us all to head back to the common room and join the rest of the listeners.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Thanks again so much, Sam, for joining us.

[Alan Sisto]

All right, folks, now we return you to the podcast in progress.

[Don Marshall]

It's always nice to sit down with one of the patrons of the ppp, even if I was not the one who was able to do that. But I will be there next time.

[Alan Sisto]

I hope so, Don. It's always fun.

[Don Marshall]

All right, Alan, do you want to get us started with our first reading?

[Alan Sisto]

Here we go. Isildur turned west, and drawing up the ring that hung in a wallet from a fine chain about his neck, he set it upon his finger with a cry of pain, and was never seen again by any eye upon Middle Earth. But the Elendilmir of the west could not be quenched. And suddenly it blazed forth, red and wrathful as a burning star. Men and Orcs gave way in fear. And Isildur, drawing a hood over his head, vanished into the night of what befell the Dunedain, only this was later known. Ere long they all lay dead save one, a young esquire, stunned and buried under fallen men, so perished Elendur, who should afterwards have been king. And as all foretold, who knew him in his strength and wisdom and his majesty without pride, one of the greatest, the fairest of the seed of Elendil, most like to his grandsire. Now of Isildur, it is told that he was in great pain and anguish of heart. But at first he ran like a stag from the hounds until he came to the bottom of the valley. There he halted to make sure that he was not pursued, for Orcs could track a fugitive in the dark by scent and needed no eyes. Then he went on more warily for wide flats stretched on into the gloom before him, rough and pathless, with many traps for wandering feet. So it was that he came at last to the banks of Anduin at the dead of night. And he was weary, for he had made a journey that the Dunedain on such ground could have made no quicker marching without halt and by day.

[Don Marshall]

Now, we ended last week with Elendur insisting that Isildur take the ring and leave. And so we start this week with the king doing exactly that. He heads west, that is, towards the river, pulls the ring out of its wallet and puts it on.

[Alan Sisto]

Remember how much he feared the pain of it? We talked about that last week. He even mentions it, of course, in the scroll again, Gandalf reads the Council of Elrond. It seems like he's fearing the pain of it for good reason. I mean, it's. You know, he screams out. Cries out in pain when he puts it on. And in classic Tolkien fashion, we get the ending before we get to the end. Right. Isildur is never seen again by any eye in Middle Earth, so you can kind of figure out what happens from there. Yeah.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah. What a. What a way to be written out of your own story right away.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Pretty incredible moment, really.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah. And though Isildur is invisible, the light of the Elendilmir is decidedly visible. In fact, it seems to be even stronger in this moment that Isildur puts the ring on. And instead of being a white gem as it's usually described here, it blazes forth red.

[Alan Sisto]

Why, Alan, that's an interesting one. We don't have an explicit answer, but. And we'll talk shortly about why it's visible at all because I think that's a separate question. But why it's blazing forth red is really interesting. It seems to me like it detects sort of the evil nature of the ring. It's some sort of. Is it reflecting that in a way? Is it.

[Don Marshall]

Is it like a lightsaber where the Kyber crystal.

[Alan Sisto]

It's a Kyber crystal. That's the problem.

[Don Marshall]

It's the equivalent of the Kyber crystal in Star Wars. Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. To me, it feels like the Elendil mirror is responding to the mere presence of the ring.

[Don Marshall]

Oh, I like that.

[Alan Sisto]

Like, now that it is being wielded. Right. I mean, it was one thing when it was in the wallet around his neck, but if it's being wielded by anyone in the vicinity of the Elendil Mirror, the Elendil mirror's got some sort of a response to it. I don't know. It is interesting. Certainly the idea of it being visible is also significant. Let's go and get into that. I mean, first off, everybody, even his men, back off. They are rightly afraid. Isildur knows that the Elendil mirror is visible. So he pulls his hood over his head, which is, you know, another thing like, okay, how do we make invisible things visible? And how do we make visible things invisible? That's when he disappears completely. And it brings up that question that we have gotten from time to time in the mailbag. Does the ring also make the things somebody wears or carries invisible? Let's talk a little bit through that.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, absolutely. So in the Hobbit, in the chapter Flies and Spiders, Bilbo, who is wearing the ring and invisible, sings a couple of tunes. And when he goes to get away, we read, quote, out came his little sword. He slashed the threads to pieces and went off singing. The spiders saw the sword, though I don't suppose they knew what it was.

[Alan Sisto]

So for them, they're just seeing a sword dancing through the air because they don't see Bilbo, just a flying sword. But it is not invisible. But would it have been invisible had it been a normal sword? Yes. I mean, that's the thing. It seems like, what. What is invisible when you're wearing the ring? We get another moment on the. On Weathertop. I'm not sure this is an example or not because this is from Frodo's perspective. So I'm not sure if it was visible to everybody else, but this is another interesting moment. He puts on the ring to hide from the Nazgul. So he's invisible. He draws the Barrow Sword, which is not like Sting. And we read desperate. He drew his own sword and it seemed to him that it flickered red as if it was a firebrand. I'm not convinced because I don't think anybody else talks about we saw your sword while you were invisible, and I think we would have seen that in the text. So maybe that one's a little different, but I don't know. There's a few other moments, aren't there?

[Don Marshall]

Yeah. Back before Bilbo even knew that the ring made him invisible, back when he's running from Gollum, we read he struck his toe on a snag in the floor and fell flat with his little sword under him. So I think Tolkien put that there because we know that the sword glowed with the blue light and it needed to be hidden under something in order to be invisible, even though Bilbo was wearing the ring.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that makes sense. And then there's the footnote to this passage. Tries to explain it. I'm not entirely sure it explains everything, but let's look at the passage. It says, the meaning sufficiently remarkable of this passage, and this is Christopher talking, not Professor Tolkien, appears to be that the light of the Elendilmir was proof against the invisibility conferred by the One Ring when worn, if its light would be visible were the ring not worn. But when Isildur covered his head with a hood, its light was extinguished. So what Christopher Tolkien is saying here is, like the Elendil mirror is not susceptible to the invisibility. And the reason why is because if he were not invisible, it would have its own light if the object creates its own light. So sting. The Elendil mirror. One imagines the file of Galadriel.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, I can see that.

[Alan Sisto]

Any other object, Silmaril, but that's not really at question here. Anything that gives off its own light, even a flashlight, I'm imagining. I mean, you know, a torch. Let's say Bilbo's holding a torch or Frodo's holding a torch while wearing the One Ring. The torch is going to be glowing. Anybody seeing him isn't going to see that the torch is invisible. They'll see a torch, you know, dancing through the air.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, just like Bilbo's sword.

[Alan Sisto]

So the clothes are invisible. The plates of food and bottles of wine that Bilbo would have had in the Elven halls during the time in Mirkwood. Yes, in Mirkwood. While The Dwarves were in prison. He was trying to figure out how to get them out. The keys that he held in his hand would have been invisible, but they weren't inaudible. Remember, he was worried that the sound would give him away. So any object that's on him or in his hands is going to be invisible. Unless it has its own light.

[Don Marshall]

Interesting.

[Alan Sisto]

That seems to be what we're saying here. It seems to be what Christopher is concluding, and it feels like a reasonable conclusion.

[Don Marshall]

I think that's fairly reasonable. Yeah, but.

[Alan Sisto]

But it is so interesting that that that's the marker. Like if it has its own light source.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Then and only then it's interesting that

[Don Marshall]

Tolkien has so many objects, now that I'm thinking about it, so many objects that give off their own light that would be relevant to the One Ring.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, even Bilbo with the Arkenstone, he had to. We don't see that explicitly mentioned, but he hides the Arkenstone, presumably because it has a glow of its own. You know, one other thing that this makes me think about is the Nazgul. They're invisible, but they're invisible for a different reason. They're just stretched so thin. Their corporeal existence is essentially gone. But their clothes make them visible. They wear the clothes in order to be seen, in order to intimidate. If they are unclad, they are invisible, which is different than the One Ring because Frodo and Bilbo. And whenever they're wearing the ring, they're invisible, even with their clothes on. They don't have to strip naked in order to be invisible. That would be an entirely different movie. So with the One Ring, anything that's touched by or part of or included in your body, that things in your pockets, whatever. Okay. But now we get the hoodie covering the light and that makes it actually invisible because now it's its own light can't be sent out.

[Don Marshall]

There's levels to this. Yeah. I think you've just scratched the surface of something much deeper.

[Alan Sisto]

Invisibility is such a thing. Like if it makes you invisible, but it doesn't make your clothes invisible or your sword invisible or the food you're carrying, you know, so it would have to be. It seems like the only thing that's not invisible is its own light source. What do you think? Wow. So we have no firm answer other than what Christopher says here, but that makes sense. Then you got to carry a hoodie if you're going to wear the Orlando mirror. So next we get a follow up on what happened to the rest of these men, the other 200 men, along with his three sons. And as we talked about last week, they knew they were all going to die, and they died, mostly except for one. The text says a young esquire survived, and we will find out more on him later.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, the biggest tragedy in this seems to be the death of Isildur's oldest son and as mentioned, the next king of Arnor and the high King of the realms, Elendor. He is described here. Very rich terms, right. Strong, wise, majestic, and also lacking pride. The most like Elendil of any of these two generations. So Isildur and Aryon, all of their sons. The most like Elendil here.

[Alan Sisto]

And that's some high praise. I mean, Elendor must have been. I mean, we talked about this last week. He was already certainly old enough to be king, you know, certainly by this point, but it's a hard loss. Yeah, he would have been a really good king, it seems. The footnote here has a great reference to Aragorn, and I think it's worth reading. Just as it stands. It is said that in later days, those such as Elrond, whose memories recalled him were struck by the great likeness to him in body and mind of King Elessar, the victor in the War of the Ring, in which both the Ring and Sauron were ended forever. Elessar was, according to the records of the Dunedain, the descendant in the 38th degree of Elendur's brother, Valandil. So long was it before he was avenged. Aragorn is said to be like the great likeness in body and mind to Elendor. So that's how you can picture Isildur's son is very much like Aragorn. While that's a note from Professor Tolkien, I want to add something that Christopher tells us in the introduction to the book. This is more of a meta thing. This isn't anything to do with the story itself. This is the spot in the story where, quote, a good typescript incorporating many changes to the first draft breaks off. And the rest of what we're covering is from that earlier rough typescript. Even with that said, Christopher points out the editorial hand has here had little to do. It's. It's as complete as an unfinished tale gets, apparently.

[Don Marshall]

Right. This is all that we're getting. We then switch back, though, to Isildur's view now for the rest of this reading and the next. He is said to have been in great pain. Again, a reference, perhaps, to the pain of wearing the one ring. But also maybe just connected to the anguish of heart here. I mean, since he's literally just lost two of his sons, he knows his eldest will likely die soon, along with, you know, the other 200 men. That's. He's got to be facing quite a lot of guilt at having done what he has done.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I mean, he didn't want to leave. He felt like he couldn't leave unless his son commanded him to leave, which he did. And he knows that this is a result of his pride. That's why at the end of last episode, the highlight was him saying, forgive me. And the pride that has brought us to this. It's got to be a heavy burden for him. Even if he survives, he knows he's surviving at the cost of these 200 men, plus his sons.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah. To buy him enough time.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. That's just heartbreaking.

[Don Marshall]

Heavy stuff.

[Alan Sisto]

I kind of wonder. I mean, I don't think I've ever put any thought into this. Like, what if he had made it and then got in the ring to Elrond in Rivendell?

[Don Marshall]

You trying to get me to write another ttrpg, Alan?

[Alan Sisto]

I'll do it.

[Don Marshall]

I already did the one about the eagles to Mordor. I will write this. This sounds a great hook.

[Alan Sisto]

Would he be able to give it up? You know, I mean, Frodo says I'll take on the mission. I'll go to Mordor. He gets to the Cracks of Doom and he can't do it. It's different, I think, to destroy it than give it up. Because Bilbo was able to give it up. Sam gave it up, so it's possible.

[Don Marshall]

But that feels like Hobbit abilities to me. I don't think a human like Isildur has that kind of power.

[Alan Sisto]

The Sorrow, though. You have to wonder if the sorrow and the guilt of this moment would lead him to be able to surrender it. Because his pride has broken. Right. My pride has fallen. It must go back to the Keepers of the Three. Yep. But then what happens when he actually gets to that moment? I don't know. That's. It's. It's amazing stuff. But. So he does get eventually to the bottom of the valley. He'll soon find the river. But he stops for a second to check for any following Orcs. Because he knows they don't have to see him to follow him. They track by scent. The Ring is not going to help him shake a tail.

[Don Marshall]

No, not at all. And then down here in the valley floor, it's more dangerous. There's wide flats and traps for wandering feet. And we end this section with his arrival on the banks of the river in the middle of the night, utterly exhausted after having been on the run for hours. And also recall that the attack took place right as the sun was going down. So it's already been several hours that he's been racing along, which is also

[Alan Sisto]

several hours after having marched all day. He marches with his men all day long. And then he has to run again, and this time a lot further, or I should say the same distance, essentially, but in a lot less time. And in the footnote, Tolkien tells us exactly how far seven leagues or more from the place of the battle night had fallen. When he fled, he reached Anduin. It was midnight or near it. That's seven leagues. That's 21 miles, of course, Tolkien says, or more. So, you know, a little less than a marathon in distance after having marched all day.

[Don Marshall]

That's honestly baffling.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Are you ready to do that Isildur challenge where you march with a couple hundred people for. For 10 hours and then you go off on a. On a marathon run at night? No, let's do that at our next moot.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, yeah. You know what? I'll watch. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, so will I.

[Don Marshall]

All right, so we recall from last week when we learned that at the dates of the disaster, in the latitude of Imladris, which they were approaching, there were at least 11 hours of daylight. That means 13 hours of night, or, you know, thereabouts.

[Alan Sisto]

So, yeah, I mean, given the time of year, there's going to be a little less sun during the day. Tolkien had said the Shire was meant to be at the latitude of Oxford. And Rivendell is of course due east of the Shire. So we can actually calculate this in the real world. Given a date of October 4th and the latitude of Oxford, we are looking at 11 hours and 25 minutes of daylight. That certainly fits. And that would also mean that Twilight hits around 7pm I love obscure Lord

[Don Marshall]

of the Rings fact so much. This is great. I love that we can do this. That's so cool. So just from that math, that would mean that he's covered 21 or more miles in five hours, which is a astonishing 14 minute mile pace. And it's not going to win him any marathons, but, you know, it. It might save his life, maybe.

[Alan Sisto]

It's certainly still fast when you consider that he'd already marched 21 miles to begin with, or there exactly about 20 miles, 23 miles a day, I think, is what we figured out. Their pace was so to cover that much distance after covering that much distance. Right, yeah.

[Don Marshall]

And remember that they would usually cover that much distance during the 11 hour day, not the 5 hour night. So that just becomes.

[Alan Sisto]

It really does. It becomes superhuman.

[Don Marshall]

Thankfully, they are in a way superhuman. The, the Numenoreans have the, you know, they're taller, stronger, faster, so they've got that ability. It's just.

[Alan Sisto]

And he's of the royal line, so he's going to be even more of all of those things.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, I doubt that Isildur is shorter than the average Numenorean of six four. He's got to be pushing six, eight. I mean, his father was eight foot tall.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah. I was going to say his father is called Elendil the Tall. You've got. You got to inherit some of those genes, surely.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah. And then of course, he's just, you know, essentially superhuman to begin with. Lately I've been trying to be more intentional about choosing what I wear each day. I find myself gravitating towards easy and comfortable, especially in spring. Now you're not going to be surprised to learn that Quince continues to be my go to. The fabrics feel upscale, the fits are just right, and everything works without me having to put a ton of thought into it. Quince has all the spring staples for your wardrobe. 100% European linen shorts and shirts from only 34 bucks. Soft 100% Pima cotton tees. I might have bought a few more of these than I really need. I like them a lot and their jeans are perfect. I'm up to three pairs now with different fits and colors. All fit and look great. And one of the other reasons I really like Quints is that they work directly with ethical manufacturers, cutting out the middleman. You get quality product made fairly but without the markup. Refresh your everyday with luxury you'll actually use. Head to quince.com pony for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q U I n c e.com pony for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com pony when Sean and I started this podcast all the way back in 2016, it was just a small little project. But as it grew over the years, I quickly discovered just how many hats you have to learn to wear. It can be overwhelming when you're starting with something new. Your to do list just keeps growing and growing and you need the right tools to help you. For millions of businesses around the world, that tool is shopify, Shopify helps you get the word out like you have a professional marketing team behind you. Easily create email and social media campaigns wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling, managing inventory and shipping, processing returns. Shopify provides world class expertise in all of these and can help make your business run smoother. From inventory to payments analytics to store templates, Tackle all the important tasks with Shopify. No need for multiple websites or figuring out which platform has the tool that you want to use. It's all in one place with Shopify. Start your business today with the industry's best business partner, Shopify, and start hearing. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com pony go to shopify.com pony that's shopify.com pony all new drinks are now at McDonald's with refreshers like the Strawberry Watermelon Refresher and the Mango Pineapple Refresher with Popping Boba to crafted sodas like the Sprite Berry Blast with berry flavors and cold foam. Who knew ice cold drinks could be so fire? Try them all now at McDonald's. Refreshers contain caffeine.

[Don Marshall]

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[Alan Sisto]

is a registered trademark of the Coca Cola. Now. Soon we'll get back to Isildur's arrival at the shores of the Anduin. But before we do, I want to take a minute to thank the amazing community and it really is that has grown up around this show over the past 10 plus years. After all, there is a lot more talk going on at the Prancing Pony Podcast than just us, thankfully.

[Don Marshall]

That's right, the PPP really does have a warm and welcoming listener community. If you've got questions or you just want to talk about how much you love Middle Earth, be sure to check out our Common room on Facebook and across all social media. On Facebook, just look for the Prancing Pony podcast. Yep, there's a page, but you're going to want to join the group for that great fan community that's right now

[Alan Sisto]

on every other social media platform besides Facebook. We're can find our subreddit at R Prancing Ponypod. And please check out my daily show, today's Tolkien Times on all your favorite podcast apps. Get your daily Middle Earth fix with everything from Middle Earth Map Mondays to third Age Thursdays. Be sure to listen wherever you get your podcasts. Don would you pick up with well with Isildur arriving at the shores of the river.

[Don Marshall]

Certainly will, Alan. The river was swirling, dark and swift before him. He stood for a while alone and in despair Then in haste, he cast off all his armor and weapons and save a short sword at his belt and plunged into the water. He was a man of strength and endurance that few even of the Dunedain of that age could equal. But he had little hope to gain the other shore. Before he had gone far. He was forced to turn almost north against the current and strive as he might, he was ever swept down towards the tangles of the gladdened fields. They were nearer than he had thought. And even as he felt the stream slacken and had almost won across he found himself struggling among great rushes and clinging weeds. There, suddenly he knew that the ring had gone. By chance or chance well used, it had left his hand and gone where he could never hope to find it again. At first, so overwhelming was his sense of loss that he struggled no more and would have sunk and drowned. But swift as it had come, the mood passed. The pain had left him. A great burden had been taken away. His feet found the river bed and heaving himself up out of the mud, he floundered through the reeds to a marshy islet close to the western shore. There he rose up out of the water only a mortal man, a small creature lost and abandoned in the wilds of Middle Earth. But to the night Eyed Orcs that lurked there on the watch, he loomed up a monstrous shadow of fear with a piercing eye like a star. They loosed their poisoned arrows at it and fled needlessly. For Isildur, unarmed, was pierced through the heart and throat. And without a cry he fell back into the water. No trace of his body was ever found by Elves or Men. So passed the first victim of the malice of the masterless Ring, Isildur, Second king of all the Dunedain, Lord of Arnor and Gondor. And in that age of the world, the last.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, that was heavy. So Isildur's standing there, he's looking at the river for a while. This is a heavy moment for him. Right? The water he sees, it's. It's a. It's a threat to him. It's moving quickly. It's pitch black by this point. It's near midnight. This has got to be a moment where. What's going on through his head right now? He knows he has to do this.

[Don Marshall]

I think the text says that he's in despair. Yeah, it's the first time despair is used in this chapter. Tolkien doesn't use words like that like this accidentally.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, that's, that's intense and it's certainly an intentional decision on his part. It's not just that he's lost hope, because there's one thing that we've noted over the years of the podcast is that while I used to think of the absence of hope being despair, like, you know, if, if you have no hope, you then you are in despair. If you are not in despair, then you might have some hope. It's really more of a plus 10 to minus 10. There is a zero where you can be without hope, but also not in despair. And we see that, we see some moments where, you know, so and so had lost all hope, but not yet despair. They're like, oh, well, that's what Tolkien's trying to explain here. But this, this, he is in despair. This is beyond that. This is, you know, the negative hope.

[Don Marshall]

So, yeah, yeah, he very in despair, he sheds his armor and his weapons and remember, that's 21 miles in five hours while fully armed and armored.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a good point.

[Don Marshall]

Very impressive.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a very, very impressive point. I mean, yeah, especially after the march because he would have been armed and armored then as well. Yeah, yeah.

[Don Marshall]

And then goes to dive into the river.

[Alan Sisto]

He does keep one small sword. This is interesting. The footnote explains. It's something called an eket, and it's described as a short stabbing sword with a broad blade, pointed and two edged from a foot to one and a half feet long. From that description, the short stabbing sword, broad blade, pointed, both edged. That sounds like a small version of the classic gladius, Right, the one worn by ancient Roman soldiers. They had slightly longer blades, 18 to 27 inches typically. But they were stabbing swords with a broad blade and they were double edged. So I think we have another question to ask Brett next week.

[Don Marshall]

Certainly do. Certainly do. So now that Isildur is in the water, though, we are reminded what a, a person, what a specimen is sealed or is. Even though he is 234 years old, he is described as having and endurance that few men could match, even of his peers. But he's just covered 21 miles again in five hours. He is exhausted, as any fit or athletic person I think would be.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, this is like a really fit athlete having just done, you know, an ironman triathlon in terms of the amount of effort that he's had to make.

[Don Marshall]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, in this case, it's two marathons, essentially back to back in armor, you know, all day. All day.

[Don Marshall]

That's intense. Yeah. And that feels superhuman. And I think this is where the Numenorean bloodline sort of comes into play here. It's very clear that Isildur is above him.

[Alan Sisto]

But this is actually a reverse iron man because it's after the run he has to get in the water. This is really bad because he's exhausted, which is the last thing you need if you're going to try to swim across a river with such a. A heavy current. He has little hope that he would make it across. So the despair isn't, I will never make it across the river. The despair is something else because he does have some hope. Granted, very little. But he has a tiny bit of hope that he'll make it across. How hard is it to get across here? Well, how wides the Anduin? We're not really told, but it is the big river. Right. This is the great river. If we look at other real world rivers of its length and of its drainage, and we consider here that the Anduin is near the flats where it's actually going to be wider, it is likely to be between at least a quarter mile and possibly as wide as a half a mile across. So we're talking 400 to 800 meters of swimming, all while he's facing a current that's trying to push himself.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, that in fact, that current is going to be a problem. He has to turn almost due north to fight the current before getting lost in the gladden fields. Meaning he will likely have had to swim twice the width of the river just to get across for this.

[Alan Sisto]

Essentially, if you picture you're going to cross a river, but you know it's going to take you to the south. So what you're basically doing is turning yourself 45 degrees to the right and going that way, but the entire time you're also getting swept south. So yeah, you really are actually covering twice as much ground. Yeah, because of the current. So this is rough. Speaking of the gladden fields, though, the footnote here tells us that the place of the last stand had been a mile or more beyond their northern border. But maybe in the dark, the fall of the land had bent his course somewhat to the south. In other words, if he'd been able to traverse the land due west in an absolute straight as narrow line, he'd have reached the river a mile north of of the Gladden fields. But Tolkien here is suggesting he was a bit closer. So maybe a half a mile to three quarters of a mile north of the gladden fields. Yeah. So that means he ends up covering the distance across, but also gets swept that far south.

[Don Marshall]

Right. He swam the width of the river and he was fighting along the current and basically losing all of that distance that he made. And he finds himself again. He's not just fighting the current, he's also fighting the reeds and the other plants as he is trying to reach that western shore.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Don Marshall]

And then amidst all of this, you know, intense, intense athleticism that he is having to do, the ring is gone. He realizes that it's just gone.

[Alan Sisto]

I can't begin to comprehend what that must have felt like in that moment. But before we get to that, because we definitely want to talk through that, the text says, by chance or chance. Well used. Which to me is another implication that we often get that the ring not only has a will of its own or a will that is a reflection of Sauron, but a limited ability to act on that will. Like the ring is seeking its master. Right. That somehow it has the ability inherent to make attempts to do that. And it seems like that's what we're reading here. By chance or chance. Well used. The ring was like, I'm out. Yep.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, he's done. And again, I think we. We see that through multiple instances of the text that the ring does have the ability to act in some limited ability of. I don't want to call it consciousness, exactly, but to exert some sort of will to say, hey, this is. This isn't it working for me? So falls off the finger and. And Isildur's reaction, I think, is one that any ring bearer would suffer. You know, one imagines an overwhelming sense of loss, and in his case, it is so severe that he literally stops trying to fight the current and would have begun to drown. And that, I think, says it all. He's ready to go at that loss.

[Alan Sisto]

The way the text reads, and I want to look at this real quick, says that at first so overwhelming was a sense of loss that he struggled no more and would have sunk and drowned. I think this is Tolkien using that archaic sense of wood as. Wants to. Has the desire to like, I would. This meaning would, as in, this is what my will is. This is like his desire is not like, oh, and if he'd stopped to. If he stopped struggling, he inevitably would have sunk and drowned. I think this is. Would rather have sunken. Drowned. Like, that's. That's the overwhelming loss that he feels.

[Don Marshall]

Interesting.

[Alan Sisto]

But it passes so quickly, isn't it?

[Don Marshall]

Almost instantaneously. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I love that. I love the fact that the feeling of loss is replaced with the relief of a burden being lifted. And there are some other moments like that, aren't there?

[Don Marshall]

There are, and we can Compare with a couple of other moments. Let's start with Bilbo. Bilbo took out the envelope with the ring in it. But just as he was about to set it by the clock his hand jerked back and the packet fell on the floor. Before he could pick it up the wizard stooped and seized it and set it in its place. A spasm of anger passed swiftly over the hobbit's face again. Suddenly it gave way to a look of relief and a laugh. Well, that's that, he said. Now I'm off. So some similarities there between Mr. Isildur and Mr. Bilbo.

[Alan Sisto]

Baggy sense of loss and then the sense of relief. And of course Frodo. And we get to see this through Sam's eyes. And after the destruction of the Ring. Well, this is the end, Sam Gamgee. Said a voice by his side. That's Sam's side. And there was Frodo. Pale and worn and yet himself again. And in his eyes there was peace now. Neither strain of will nor madness nor any fear. His burden was taken away. There was the dear master of the sweet days in the Shire.

[Don Marshall]

It's the burden, yeah. Yet himself again. And I think that whole idea of oh I had this great burden, it is gone. I am now my normal self again. I think there's a weight lifted.

[Alan Sisto]

Certainly Isildur has, has won in essence. I mean it, it, it took this for him to win but. And of course it's going to be a short lived victory but.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, a victory nonetheless though.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, absolutely. I mean I think of. I think of Aragorn and Boromir, you know that. Yeah, or Gandalf talking about how Boromir, you know what a victory that he won. How do you win a victory when you're dead? Well, he may have lost the battle against the Ring, but he won the war for sure.

[Don Marshall]

And we sort of get to that moment just now. He finally gets close to the other side he's able to stand. He gets himself to a small islet near the western shore of the river and as he stands we see his description as less than really only a mortal man. A small creature lost and abandoned.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I find that so deeply descriptive of what you would feel like if you'd been a ring bearer and then you're not anymore. Small creature, lost and abandoned. And that is all he is at this point. Yes, he might be a mighty Numenorean king, you know he might be 7 foot tall and capable of running 40 plus miles in a day but he is still in comparison to the world, a small creature, lost and abandoned. And I feel like this is also a reflection of the, the fall of his pride, right? He's. He's humble enough now that he. I think he can even see himself this way, as this small creature lost and abandoned. But he's not small enough to evade the orcs, right? Without the ring, not only is he visible, but clearly the Elendilmir, you know, he's not wearing the hoodie anymore. So the Elendilmir is shining like a hiking lamp at four in the morning on his forehead, you know, I mean, you know, you know, you're ready to go on that long walk when you can see your buddy coming around from, you know, 100 yards away because he's got a light on his forehead, right? The orcs, though, they're not just like, oh, hey, I wonder what. What that light is. They're terrified of that light. They know what that light is and they're afraid of it. Last week, the orcs still feared the Elendo mirror that he bore on his brow. They avoided him. That's why he went to that side where the attack was the strongest, because he knew that would drive them off. So they see a mortal man, a small creature, lost and abandoned, highly visible with a thing that they fear.

[Don Marshall]

And of course, what do they do? They do what orcs would do and they shoot him using poisoned arrows and run away. And of course, they don't really need to run. The arrows, honestly, don't even need to be poisoned. Isildur was shot in the heart and the throat. He's dead when he hits the water and his body.

[Alan Sisto]

Shoot that poison arrow to my heart. Shoot that poison arrow. Sorry, I have to do a little gallows humor. Right. We've got a, you know, we've got

[Don Marshall]

a very heavy chapter. We gotta lighten things up. And this is.

[Alan Sisto]

You broke my heart. You did. ABC needs a little bit of. A little bit of play.

[Don Marshall]

Anyway, it's all right. This, we're so happy to announce, Alan and I will be going on a small tour around the country to those

[Alan Sisto]

who are completely tone deaf. Yeah.

[Don Marshall]

Meantime, back in Middle Earth, the only thing going on tour is Isildur's body down the river.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Don Marshall]

And he is never seen again. You got to keep things light here. Right at the very end when things have been so heavy, his body is never found, at least not by the elves or men. Although it certainly hints at something, though, that we will talk about a little bit later.

[Sam H]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I really. You don't think about it when it says that no trace of his body was ever found by Elves or men. When you first read that, the very first time you read this story, you're just like, oh, that's just Tolkien saying nobody ever found his body. But that's not Tolkien saying nobody ever found his body. We will talk about that later today. Man, heavy, heavy stuff.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah. Alan, we still have plenty of reading to go. Would you continue on to the next portion for this episode?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, we're going to go ahead and read now about the sources of the legend of Isildur's death. Death. There were eyewitnesses of the event. Okhtar and his companion escaped, bearing with them the shards of Narsil. The tale mentions a young man who survived the slaughter. He was Elendur's esquire, named Estelmo, and was one of the last to fall, but was stunned by a club and not slain, and was found alive under Elendur's body. He heard the words of Isildur and Elendur at their parting. There were rescuers who came on the scene too late, but in time to disturb the Orcs and prevent their mutilation of the bodies. For there were certain Woodmen who got news to Thranduil by runners and also themselves gathered a force to ambush the Orcs, of which they got wind and scattered. For though victorious, their losses had been great and almost all of the great Orcs had fallen. They attempted no such attack again for long years after. The story of the last hours of Isildur and his death was due to surmise, but well founded. The legend in its full form was not composed until the reign of Elessar in the Fourth Age, when other evidence was discovered. Up to then it had been known, firstly, that Isildur had the ring and had fled towards the river. Secondly, that his male helm, shield and greatsword, but nothing else, had been found on the bank not far above the Gladden fields. Thirdly, that the Orcs had left watchers on the west bank armed with bows to intercept any who might escape the battle and flee to the river, for traces of their camps were found, one close to the borders of the Gladden Fields. And fourthly, that Isildur and the ring, separately or together, must have been lost in the river. For if Isildur had reached the west shore wearing the ring, he should have eluded the watch. And so hardy, a man of great endurance could not have failed to come then to Lorien or Moria before he foundered. Though it was a long journey, each of the Dunedain carried in a sealed Wallet on his belt, a small vial of cordial and wafers of a way bread that would sustain life in him for many days. Not indeed the Mirvor or the Lembas of the Eldar, but like them, for the medicine and other arts of Numenor were potent and not yet forgotten. No belt or wallet was among the gear discarded by Isildur.

[Don Marshall]

And now we go from the story itself to how we got this information. After all, it's not like there's a documentary film crew falling around isildur for his 21 mile run.

[Alan Sisto]

And now I'm picturing like a Netflix docudrama on the disaster.

[Don Marshall]

Oh, I love that.

[Alan Sisto]

Wouldn't that be great?

[Don Marshall]

No, but there were eyewitnesses to other parts of the disaster. Three of them, specifically.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. You had Okhtar and his lucky travel buddy, unnamed, who carried the shards of Narsil out to Rivendell. And then we had the previously unnamed esquire who survived. Remember in our first reading we saw that they all lay dead save one, a young esquire, stunned and buried under fallen men.

[Don Marshall]

He was the esquire of Elendor, and his name was Estelmo, A name so fantastic we have to do a quick word nerdery on it. Alan, take it away.

[Alan Sisto]

His name is a compound of estel, meaning hope. Right, we all recognize that. And the mo suffix which is agentive, that means. Well, rather than trying to say what it means, I'm going to give you an example. The English parallel would be the er, suffix, the or suffix or the ist suffix. So singer, act or scientist. One who does the thing named. He is Estelmo. He is the hoper or the hopist. He is literally the hope person, the one who Hopes. I love that name. And he was under Elendor's body when he died. And he'd heard that exchange at the end. My king, said Elendor, Cirion is dead and Aratan is dying. Your last councillor must advise, nay, command you as you commanded Oktar. Go. Take your burden and at all costs bring it to the Keepers. Even at the cost of abandoning your men and me. King's son, said Isildur. I knew that I must do so, but I feared the pain. Nor could I go without your leave. Forgive me and my pride that has brought you to this doom. Elendor kissed him. Go. Go now, he said. Sorry, I just had to have an excuse to read that a second time. But I love that name. Estelmo. The one good name hopes, isn't it?

[Don Marshall]

The One who Hopes. It's your word. Nerdery never ceases to astound me, Alan. And this one is especially good. So it's such.

[Alan Sisto]

It's so fitting too, really. Right here.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, it really is. And we learned that while no help came in time, there were some local men who had gotten word to Thronduil. Those men not only got the news out, but formed a group large enough to ambush the Orcs. Interestingly, the orcs saw this coming and dispersed because all of their big, strong Orcs.

[Alan Sisto]

What? None of this, man.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, yeah, no, they were gone. All their big, strong orcs, they were. They were dead to the swords of the. Of the Dunedin. And there was absolutely no desire for a fight. In fact, we learned they do not attack anyone like this for long years.

[Alan Sisto]

As it should be. So that covers the first part of the story, the part of the story up to the battle. But what about what happened to Isildur after he left? Right, we don't have any eyewitnesses to that. Istelmo saw a lot, but he didn't see what happened after Isildur left for the river. Here the narrator concedes that the rest of this story is deduced or inferred. There may not be any direct evidence, but the story itself is still well founded.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, the story itself didn't get finalized or written down until after Aragorn became King eleazar in the fourth age. So this is, you know, well over 3,000 years after the incident, but importantly, after some actual evidence had been discovered.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right, and we will get to that evidence in a bit. We're going to talk about that at length. But we get the knowledge that laid the foundation for the initial version. We start with the fact that it was a known thing that Isildur had the ring and was heading west for the river. We got that from Estelmo's testimony.

[Don Marshall]

Second, that his armor, his primary weapon, but not the ring, the Elendilmir or anything else, was found on the eastern side of the river, north of the Gladden fields.

[Alan Sisto]

So we have physical evidence, right? There's his armor, there's his great sword. We know he was here and he left his stuff here. Then there's also physical evidence in the form of Orc camps which showed that some Orcs armed with bows were left on the west side of the river to shoot any escapees. Now, they don't go into detail about what those camps look like, but you have to assume if they're going to make the claim that these, you know, were orcs stationed on the west side to shoot down escapees. The camps themselves would have had evidence like bows, bowstrings, arrows, you know, arrow making supplies, fletching supplies, that kind of thing.

[Don Marshall]

Right, yeah. Finally, and this is sort of the logical conclusion, that both the king and the ring had been lost in the Onduin. After all, if he had made it out with the ring, he'd have gotten away from the orcs on the west side and, you know, being who he was, would have been able to make it to Lorian or even to Moria.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. The text explains that. Each of these guys, the 204 of them, all these Numenorean soldiers, Gondorian soldiers, but of course, Numenorean would have carried a very small pack of supplies on their person. And that pack, that wallet they mentioned, Wallet doesn't mean what you think, by the way. It doesn't mean the small leather thing you fold and put in your back pocket any more than the word coffin means the thing you bury a human in. We're going to get the word coffin later. And it's really just a small box. That's all it means. So wallet in this case is just a thing that holds. It's like a pouch. In this case, it includes a bit of drink, a little bit of a cordial, along with some whey bread. And it's not the quality of lembas and miravor, but it's definitely enough to get somebody like Isildur through the journey.

[Don Marshall]

And we also get a reminder of just how knowledgeable the Numenoreans were. Their knowledge of medicine was powerful and not yet forgotten. Those supplies weren't found with Isildur's gear. We can sort of surmise that he had them with him, but since he didn't make it, he must have been lost to the river.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that's correct.

[Don Marshall]

So we've got all that.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, a lot of evidence. And certainly, you know, it's a. It's a piece by piece thing. You know, first you have eyewitness testimony, then you have physical testimony or physical evidence, then you have more physical evidence because of the Orcs. Then you do have an inference, but it's a logical inference based on what you know of Isildur, so it makes sense. I did want to linger a little bit on the idea that their knowledge of medicine was powerful, but, quote, not yet forgotten. I think that's speaking a little bit to the sense that we get in the Return of the King, when we're dealing with the Houses of Healing and the Herb Master and The sort of idea that things used to be different, things used to be better. We don't have that technology anymore. It's still maybe better than what a lot of the other groups of men have. Certainly their medicine and their healing is going to be more advanced than what we get in, you know, the, the Eves of Mirkwood. I'm thinking of when the plague came through and how.

[Don Marshall]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Those people suffered more than the Gondorians, partly because of their medicine. But it's definitely, definitely something that goes downhill. Sure. Something that's, that's very much the trend. We see that in, in Minas Tirith as well, you know, with the stonework, you know, Gimli pointing out that the, the old stonework is better.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah. Things are deteriorating, not getting better.

[Alan Sisto]

And that's very much a medievalist approach. So it is interesting. Is this, is this enough to build a story on the evidence that we have those, those pieces, Stomo's testimony, physical presence of the. Do you. It feels like there's a little bit almost too much of a presumption that the king and. Or the ring must have been lost. We've read earlier that they don't need to be able to see him to track him. He would have been exhausted. I think, if nothing else, let's say he did get out of the river with the ring, stays invisible, hides, rests to recover his strength. Do you not think that they're able to track him by scent or maybe the fact that he's gone through the river, he's basically washed himself now. They don't have a scent as much

[Don Marshall]

as I, I think because it's not mentioned, it's kind of a moot point. Just for me. I'm, I'm, I'm looking at what evidence Tolkien gives us that the story can be trusted.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, well, I think we get more evidence later. Yeah, we do.

[Don Marshall]

Yes. And I think that becomes sort of the, the nail in the coffin, pun intended, if you will own that.

[Alan Sisto]

Fun. That's right, I will.

[Don Marshall]

But, yeah, I think for me, there, there are. I can see where Tolkien's head is at in trying to prove this, you know, step by step in some sort of logical argument.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I like that he's doing that for us, though. He's not just telling us this, he's telling us how we know this. Right. He's not just telling us a story, he's telling us how the story came to him because he's just the translator of these stories. But anyway. Alright, Don, we do find some more evidence. Would you Take us away.

[Don Marshall]

I would love to. But King Elessar, when he was crowned in Gondor, began the reordering of his realm. And one of his first tasks was the restoration of Orthanc where he proposed to set up again the palantir recovered from Saruman. Then all the secrets of the tower were searched. Many things of worth were found. Jewels and heirlooms of Eorl filched from Edoros by the agency of Wormtongue during King Theoden's decline. And other such things more ancient and beautiful from mounds and tombs far and wide. Saruman in his degradation had become not a dragon but a jackdaw. At last, behind a hidden door that they could not have found or opened, had not Elessar had the aid of Gimli the Dwarf, a steel closet was revealed. Maybe it had been intended to receive the ring, but it was almost bare. In a casket on the high shelf two things were laid. One was a small case of gold attached to a fine chain. It was empty and bore no letter or token. But beyond all doubt, it had once borne the ring about Isildur's neck. Next to it lay a treasure without price long mourned as lost forever. The Elendilmir itself. The white star of Elvish crystal upon a fillet of mithril that had descended from Silmarien to Elendil and had been taken by him as a token of royalty in the North Kingdom. Every king and the chieftains that followed them in Arnor had borne the Elendilmir down even to Elessar himself. But though it was a jewel of great beauty made by Elven smiths in Imladris for Valandil, Isildur's son it had not the ancientry nor potency of the one that had been lost when Isildur fled into the dark and came back no more.

[Alan Sisto]

All right, before we go any further, I said coffin and I meant casket. Earlier when I was like, there's another word that doesn't mean what you think it means. Coffin means exactly what you think it means. Casket does not. So I just wanted to correct myself there because we almost always think of a casket as meaning a coffin, right? A thing that you put a dead body in before you bury it. But a casket can just be a small thing. A casket can be a box. It's just a box is what it means. Okay, so that's why we're not talking about like a six and a half. Well, you know, be an eight foot long casket. If it was meant to bury a new minority in but you know, we're not talking about a humongous box like that in a giant walk in closet. We're talking about a much smaller, you know, in wall hole that has a tiny little box. Anyway, we'll get to more of that. I just want to make sure I'd said coffin, I meant casket. So there you have it. Also, you may not have the ancient tree nor potency of the co host, but I do. I have both the ancient tree and the potency. I just wanted to make sure, you know, that potency comes with the ancient tree.

[Don Marshall]

Oh, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

See, did you notice that both ancient tree and potency are kind of combined? It's potent because it's ancient, see?

[Don Marshall]

Oh, okay. Yeah, I don't think I put those two together, but now that you mention it, I'm. I'm kind of.

[Alan Sisto]

It had not the ancient tree nor potency. That's. Well, it didn't have the potency because it didn't have the ancient tree. Sir, between you and I, I have the ancient tree. So next time you make that old joke, I'm gonna be all right. I'm gonna be all right.

[Don Marshall]

I'm sure the intro for next episode will.

[Alan Sisto]

Will reflect this. I can't believe I didn't include Yesterday in the open. Yeah, I'm here with a man of the west who has both the ancient tree and the potency. Yeah, we did skip a paragraph before you read what you read here. It was one that talked about when the Council determined that the One Ring had been found. And that paragraph also serves as a really helpful segue between the end of the disaster of the Gladden Fields and Isildur's death in Third Age two and the time of the Lord of the rings more than 3,000 years later.

[Don Marshall]

The text describes it as the third age of the Elvish world waning, and how it was at this time that the Council discovered the ring had been found specifically near the western side of the Anduin, near to the north end of the Gladden Fields, but that no sign or clue of Isildur's body had been found.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. And that is also when the Council found out about Sodomon's secret project. He'd been searching in the same area looking for the Ring. And while he obviously didn't find it, the Council had no idea what else he did find.

[Don Marshall]

And that is a great lead in to the section we did read, which starts in third age 3019 or shortly thereafter, once Eleazar began his job of getting Gondor back in Order.

[Alan Sisto]

He has got a lot of work to do, really. But one of the big projects is getting Orthanc back up and running. Saruman's been there for 260 years. It's a bit of a fixer upper now that the Ents have gotten hold of the place. And since he has the Palantir that belongs there, he takes it back to get it set up and presumably calibrate it. Sean and I will actually talk about that towards the end of the season when we get to the chapter on the Palantiri.

[Don Marshall]

And when he gets to Orthanc, all of Saruman's little hiding places and stashes and secrets, they are all discovered. The items stolen from Etteros by Wormtongue during that time when Theoden was, you know, under his influence. These are things King Eomer would no doubt absolutely love to see. I'm sure he's thrilled that all of these are found.

[Alan Sisto]

The things that they find include heirlooms of Aorl. So we're talking about things that go back more than 500 years and maybe even to their time as the Eotheod before they came to Rohan.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, seems like he was a bit of a grave robber as well as Eleazar and his crew discovered these things described as ancient and beautiful objects taken from mounds and tombs all over Middle Earth. The text. Just saying, rather than becoming a dragon with a hoard, I love this. Saruman had become a jackdaw.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, that was a fun one. That. That deserves a little bit of a sidebar. Jackdaws, for those of you who don't know, are small, black or blackish birds related to crows and ravens. They are smaller, and I ask that you forgive my lack of knowledge regarding jackdaws, but honestly, that's half the fun of writing this show. I get to learn these new things. For instance, there are some fascinating folklore bits surrounding jackdaws, including an ancient Greek adage, the swans will sing when the jackdaws are silent. In other words, the wise people will speak only after the foolish have gone quiet. In ancient Greek folklore, jackdaws were supposedly able to be caught with a dish of oil. That is, they would fall in love with their own reflection. So they were vain creatures, which very much fits Saruman. And they're widely considered to be thieves of shiny objects, rather like their big bird brothers, the crows and ravens. So in saying that Saruman has become not a dragon, but a jackdaw, Tolkien is saying that he failed in becoming an ancient, greedy power on a huge scale, like a dragon. Instead, he's just a minor thief of trinkets. He's small minded. I absolutely love that. There's another fable, by the way, about a jackdaw that is another parallel to Saruman. I'm not sure if Tolkien meant this or not. The jackdaw in one of these folklore stories dresses itself in the feathers of other birds only to be recognized anyway and have those feathers stripped away. Sort of like the Saruman of many colors. Attempt. Oh, I just thought it was a really interesting little. I mean, I, I just, I have to feel like he drew this parallel on purpose. It's, it's such a simple throwaway line. But there's so much to this jackdaw thing.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah. And especially, I mean, especially if you, if you don't necessarily understand the context. Tolkien, being a philologist, is looking for the right word at the right time. So comparing him, especially when you, you have the comparison. I think if he had just said, oh, he was like a jackdaw, that's one thing. But if you say, become a jackdaw. Yeah, become a jackdaw and you, you start with the comparison to the dragon and then you get that, that contrast to, nope, not a dragon, in fact, just a jackdaw, it's almost as if it's an insult.

[Alan Sisto]

It's absolutely an insult. He's just become a small minded little thief who, you know, is vain. And I just, I see all these stories in folklore about the jackdaws and it's like, oh, wow, there's so many connections to Saruman and his personality. The vanity, the trying to be somebody that he's not with the feathers, I mean, it's just great. Love it.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah. Finally, moving on from the word nerdery and the association, we see that Gimli is happy to help LSR find and open a hidden door with a steel closet inside. In that closet there are shelves. On the top shelf there are two objects. The first we see is a gold case, empty. The text says that beyond all doubt, it once held the ring around a sealed door's neck. How, Alan, is it beyond all doubt?

[Alan Sisto]

Well, that's the thing. I mean, that almost feels like Tolkien taking the easy way out here and just saying, no, no, no, this is a given.

[Don Marshall]

We're gonna just take my word for it.

[Alan Sisto]

The fact that we find other things that belong to him suggests this is in fact the thing that held the ring. I think it is beyond all doubt. It's just he doesn't bother to explain why it's beyond all doubt.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, it's laid out here pretty clearly. And also, what a cool way to sort of look at this side of things and say, hey, that's a very, very interesting way to sort of hook us with a little bit of additional Isildur lore, which, as I mentioned, we don't really get a lot of.

[Alan Sisto]

There's never enough Isildur lore. I think it's this next thing that tells us why that case beyond all doubt once held the ring. And it's the Elendil, Myr. It's an entirely unexpected thing for them to find. It's been thought to have been lost for more than 3,000 years. This isn't just the Elendilmir.

[Don Marshall]

It's the original Elendilmir, described as the white star of Elvish crystal on a mithril fillet dating back all the way to Silmarian's time in Numenor.

[Alan Sisto]

That is a long time ago, folks. She was born in second age 521. So we're talking about something going back nearly 6,000 years that is truly ancient.

[Don Marshall]

Absolutely is. We read that Elendil chose it as a token of royalty. So a pretty good item as well to sort of have be an heirloom.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. As for the mithril, by the way, because it was on a mithril fillet, Numenor might not have been trading with Moria at this time. It is really important to recall what the footnote tells us, and that is that mithril was found in Numenor in the line of Elros and unfinished tales, which we never covered because, let's be honest, it's just a list. I mean, we've covered a lot of the content in it by pulling it in other sections we just didn't say. Today we're doing an episode on the line of Elros. We learned there though that the 15th ruler of Numenor, his name was Tar Telamite. And that's a name that means silver handed. He got his name because he loved silver and bad his servants to seek ever for mithril.

[Don Marshall]

So, Alan, how do we square this with Gandalf saying that Mithra was found in Moria alone in the world? Well, when answering. Yeah, when answering Sam's question about why the dwarves want to come back, Gandalf says, for Mithril answered Gandalf, the wealth of Moria was not in gold and jewels, the toys of the dwarves, nor in iron, their servant. Such things they found here, it is true, especially iron. But they did not need to delve for them all things that they desired they could have obtained in traffic. For here alone in the world was found Moria silver, or true silver, as some have called it. Mithril is the elvish name for here

[Alan Sisto]

alone in the world. And the challenge here is that Moria was actually founded long before the fall of Numenor. In fact, it was founded before Numenor existed. So is Gandalf talking about present tense? It's possible that Gandalf either, A, didn't know about Numenor's mithril deposits, right? He'd never gone there. He'd never been there, or B, since Numenor simply doesn't exist anymore. His statement is true in a present tense. The challenge is, he says, for here alone in the world was found. But it's one of those things that Maybe he would have fixed this had he decided to publish the story. It's the only thing I can think of.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah. This just seems like one of those things that perhaps. Yeah, exactly. Fix it in post. Fix it in post. The Elendilmir is seen in Lord of the Rings long before we know what it really is. Back when Tom Bombadil gave the blades of Westerness to the hobbits after their escape from the Barrow, he spoke about the men who were overcome by, quote, the evil king of Karn Doom in the land of Angmar. For few now remember them, Tom murmured, Yet still some go wandering sons of forgotten kings walking in loneliness, guarding from evil things, folk that are heedless. The Hobbits did not understand his words, but as he spoke, they had a vision, as it were, of a great expanse of years behind them, like a vast shadowy plain over which there strode shapes of men, tall and grim, with bright swords. And last came one with a star on his brow.

[Alan Sisto]

That would be the Elendilmir. By the way, just an aside. Did you. It's been so long since we've read any of Tom's dialogue, but did you catch that rhythm? Few now remembered them, yet still some go wandering sons of forgotten kings walking in loneliness, guarding from evil things, folk that are heedless. I mean, it's just all the time. Trochaic tetrameter, over and over. It's just great. I love it.

[Don Marshall]

The fact that, you know, that offhand is. Is, well, incredibly impressive. That's very cool. And this is.

[Alan Sisto]

I. I credit Sean for that. He's the one who told me that that's what he speaks in all the time. Because I'm not a poet, so I had to sort of learn that stuff. But I just. I Love that rhythm, that singing tone to it. Even when he's speaking, everything he speaks. Is this just.

[Don Marshall]

Ah, that's our first song on our tour.

[Alan Sisto]

Coming back to the Elendilmir, rather than Tom, though I love Tom. We can always do sidebars on Tom. It's been worn by all the kings of Arnor and the chieftains of the Dunedain, including Elessar. But it isn't the same Elendilmir. Right? That's the interesting thing. Here we see the second Elendilmir in Elessar's coronation scene, though it isn't named then either. From the steward and the king a hush fell upon all, as out from the host stepped the Dunedain in silver and gray. And before them came walking slow the Lord Aragorn. He was clad in black mail girt with silver, and he wore a long mantle of pure white, clasped at the throat with a great jewel of green that shone from afar. Of course, that jewel, by the way, that's the LSR that James and I talked about in the history of Galadriel and Celeborn. But his head was bare save for a star upon his forehead, bound by a slender fillet of silver.

[Don Marshall]

But the one that Elendil wore, the one that had descended from Silmarion, wasn't the same one Eleazar wore in that scene. The text here acknowledges that it was a jewel of great beauty, but it wasn't ancient or powerful compared to the original.

[Alan Sisto]

Compared to the original. I mean, it was still ancient, right? I mean, it had been made for Valandil in Rivendell shortly after the death of Isildur. So it was over 3,000 years old. But the original. The original was more than twice as old, I think. Am I twice as old as you, Dawn? I'm just kidding.

[Don Marshall]

And that's where we're gonna take our break break, folks.

[Alan Sisto]

Also twice as powerful. Yes, that's right.

[Don Marshall]

Oh, easy now. I can probably do more pull ups than you.

[Alan Sisto]

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[Don Marshall]

Hey, do you have trouble sleeping? Then Maybe you should check out the Sleepy Podcast. It's a show where I read old books in the public domain to help you get to sleep. It was the best of times, it was the worst of times. It was the age of wisdom. Classic stories like A Tale of Two Cities, Pride and Prejudice, Winnie the Pooh. Stories that are great for kids and adults alike. So whether you have a tough time snoozing or just like a good bedtime story, fluff up the cool side of your pillow and tune into Sleepy. Unless you're driving, then please don't listen to Sleepy. Find Sleepy wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Sunday. Sweet dreams.

[Alan Sisto]

Hi, I'm Deborah Treisman, Fiction Editor of the New Yorker and host of the New Yorker Fiction Podcast. On the podcast, I ask a great contemporary writer to select a favorite story from the magazine's almost hundred year archive to read and discuss together. Together we delve into the story, exploring its themes, its style, and what makes fiction work. You can listen to authors like Ottessa Moshfegh talk about why we write story or attaching a story or creating a story. Is this inclination that we all have to stop spinning? And you can hear writers like George Saunders discuss the nature of storytelling on the first read.

[Don Marshall]

You accept these things as descriptions and

[Alan Sisto]

they make you see the scene, but

[Don Marshall]

every line is a chance to inflect the reader's mind.

[Alan Sisto]

You'll discover new favorite authors and read old favorites in new ways. Episodes of the New Yorker Fiction Podcast are released on the 1st of every month. Listen and follow wherever you get your podcasts.

[Don Marshall]

We told you about the amazing PPP community after our earlier ad break. If you were a part of that community and you want to enjoy something even more special, come join the Fellowship of the Podcast on Patreon. You get to be in the best discord community around, one that includes host hangouts and even live episode recordings.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right, like the one that we're doing right now with exactly 60 of our closest friends.

[Don Marshall]

Hello there.

[Alan Sisto]

Hello everybody. Your support there, by the way folks, is what enables me to work full time doing these shows. The ppp, Today's Tolkien Times, Rings of Power Wrap up and my streaming show the PPP plays Now. When you join, you can get episode postscripts, ad free episodes, free merch and more.

[Don Marshall]

You can also join our Questions after Nightfall episodes or even appear as a guest in the north wing. Go to patreon.com prancingponypod to show your support and join the Fellowship of the Podcast.

[Alan Sisto]

And don't Forget to rate and review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And please recommend us to your friends. You can do that directly on Spotify now you can literally just share the show with your friends from the app.

[Don Marshall]

All right, Alan, we have got a little bit more to read. Would you like to read our next segment?

[Alan Sisto]

By a little bit more, I think you mean three different segments, but I'll get started with this one. It's because we have an appendix to cover, folks. That's the thing, right?

[Don Marshall]

That's the thing.

[Alan Sisto]

Elessar took it up with reverence, and when he returned to the north and took up again the full kingship of Arnor, Arwen bounded upon his brow, and men were silent in a maze to see its splendor. But Elessar did not again imperil it, and wore it only on high days in the North Kingdom. Otherwise, when in kingly raiment he bore the Elendilmir which had descended to him. And this also is a thing of reverence, he said, and above my worth 40 heads have worn it before. When men considered this secret hoard more closely, they were dismayed. For it seemed to them that these things, and certainly the Elendilmir, could not have been found unless they had been upon Isildur's body when he sank. But if that had been in deep water of strong flow, they would in time have been swept far away. Therefore Isildur must have fallen not into the deep stream, but into shallow water no more than shoulder high. Why then, though an age had passed, were there no traces of his bones? Had Sodomon found them and scorned them, burned them with dishonor in one of his furnaces? If that were so, it was a shameful deed, but not his worst.

[Don Marshall]

Okay, a little bit of a shorter segment here, but needed to be looked at on its own for sure. Particularly because of the implications of that second half of it. We'll get to that in a moment. First, though, we get Aragorn's reaction to discovering this ancient symbol of royalty.

[Alan Sisto]

This is pretty incredible. I mean, remember, it is 6,000 years old. So if we're looking at that in the terms of the primary world, we're talking about an object that would predate even the pre dynastic period in Egypt. We're talking about something that would go back to the earliest days of Sumerian civilization. Now imagine finding something from that era that somehow had maintained significance for all of that time, but had been replaced sometime around the time of King David at the beginning of the Iron age. That's your 6,000 years and your 3,000 years.

[Don Marshall]

Wow.

[Alan Sisto]

That's mind blowing, that. Yeah.

[Don Marshall]

That is truly mind blowing.

[Alan Sisto]

Wow. Yeah. Yeah.

[Don Marshall]

And of course, as I think anyone's reaction would be, Aragorn's reaction is to take it with reverence. Yeah, yeah, I'll say.

[Alan Sisto]

It's.

[Don Marshall]

It's an ancient heirloom, thousands and thousands of years old. And, of course, Arwen, elf that she is, puts it on him when he finally heads north to Arnor to take up the High Kingship. But then he kept it secret, kept it safe, mostly, only wearing it on the High Days and even then, only in Arnor when it was the symbol of kingship.

[Alan Sisto]

That makes sense. I mean, why bring the original Elendilmir all the way down to Gondor, leave it in Arnor, wear it only on the High Days when you're there, because it's there that it is the symbol of kingship. So instead, he wears the one that is only 3,000 years old.

[Don Marshall]

Oh, only. Yeah, sure.

[Alan Sisto]

And that 40 kings and chieftains have worn before. Now, interestingly, the text of the footnote corrects that to 38. I mean, after all, it was made for Valandil. So we get the kings of Arnor, Valandil, Eldacar, Arantar, Tarkil, Thorondor, Valandur, Elendor and Earendur. That's eight kings of Arnor. Yeah.

[Don Marshall]

And then after Earendur, it would have gone to the kings of Arthedain. A lot more of those. Fifteen.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, we're not going to name all of those.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, Nope, nope. Starting with Amlaith and ending with arvedui.

[Alan Sisto]

So that's 23 heads so far. Right? The eight kings of Arnor, 15 kings of Arthedain. But then we get the chieftains of the Dunedain, from Aronarth down to Aragorn himself. That's 16, including Aragorn. But he's talking about the heads that wore it before him. So 15 before him.

[Don Marshall]

So 8 kings of Arnor, 15 kings of Arthedain, and 15 chieftains of the

[Alan Sisto]

Dunedain and a partridge in a pear tree. So, yeah, so that's 38 heads that have worn it before him. Now, the footnote here also does something we don't often see Christopher do. He corrects Robert Foster's the Complete Guide to Middle Earth. See, in the Lord of the Rings and the Tale of Years, which is Appendix B, we read In Shire Reckoning, 1436, which is fourth, age 16, we read King Elessar rides north and dwells for A while by Lake Evendim, he comes to the Brandywine Bridge and there greets his friends. He gives the Star of the Dunedain to Master Samwise and Elenor is made a maid of honor to Queen Arwen.

[Don Marshall]

Foster then says that the Elendilmir was worn until Elessar gave it to Sam Gamgee. In fourth age 16, Christopher clarifies the clear implication of the present passage is that King Elessar retained indefinitely the Elendil Mir that was made for Valandil, and it seems to me in any case out of the question that he would have made a gift of it to the Mayor of the Shire, however greatly he esteemed him.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, out of the question indeed. But that is. I get why Foster made that, that comment. The idea. Oh, the Star of the. Dunno, that must be the Elendil Mir. But Christopher explains it never really is referred to as that. It's close. Christopher explains the Elendel Mir is called by several names. The Star of Elendil, the Star of the north, the Star of the North Kingdom, while the Star of the Dunedain, occurring only in this entry in the Tale of Years, is assumed to be yet another of those names. In Robert Foster's Guide and in another book, Jea Tyler's Tolkien Companion, Christopher goes on to explain. I have found no other reference to it meaning the Star of the Junidae, but it seems to me to be almost certain that it was not the same and that Master Samwise received some different and more suitable distinction. You know, a pin, a medal, you know, he gets, oh, he's the star.

[Don Marshall]

Oh, he gets star sticker.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes. The Congressional Medal of Honor, it's the Star of the Dunedain. It doesn't mean it's the Elendilmir. He can't imagine that he would give a 6,000 year old thing that belonged to Silmarian and Elendil. And I love Sam, don't get me wrong, he is the hero of the story. He's one of my all time favorite characters. But there's no way in the world Aragorn's giving him the 6,000 year old Olin. Delmir.

[Don Marshall]

No, I think not. That seems just a tad too far for even Tolkien.

[Alan Sisto]

That's really. Yeah, that's as Christopher says, it seems to me, in any case, out of the question. I think that's about as strongly worded as Christopher gets. Really.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, yeah. That's the, the polite way of saying no. Are you out of mind?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah.

[Don Marshall]

But then we get to the moment in the story with the, I guess, the highest potential disgust factor. What happened to Isildur's body? Because after discovering the Elendil Mir, the thought that crossed everyone's mind, how did it end up here?

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Because the Elendor Mirror could not have been found unless Isildur was wearing it when he fell into the water. But if that had happened in the middle of that great river, it would have been swept down to the sea. It's gone. Ergo, he must have died in shallow waters.

[Don Marshall]

But of course, that creates another problem. His bones theoretically should be in the same vicinity as the objects. So the question remains, did Saruman find them? And if so, had he disposed of them?

[Alan Sisto]

Disposed? I mean, we know he'd been searching that area a lot more than anybody. He almost certainly found them, if they were able to be found. And there is that question, is it possible that. But no, because there's no way in the world that the current would have swept away the bones but not the Elendilmir. If there's so little current that the tiny little fillet of mithril or the tiny stone on the fillet of mithril was not washed away, that thing couldn't have weighed more than, you know, what, half a pound, right? Yeah, exactly.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Three, three, four ounces at the most. I mean, unless it's a really big stone, you're talking about bones that would weigh a lot more and they didn't it. So there's no way the Lindelmere stays in the bones get swept, therefore the bones were there, but the bones are now gone. Who took them? Yeah, I mean, the chapter ends on a deeply disturbing note. The idea that, look, if Solomon had burned Isildur's bones in one of his industrial furnaces, that's a bad thing. I don't think anybody needs to tell us it's a bad thing. But the text says us that it would not have been his worst deed. Dishonoring the bones of the High King of Arnor and Gondor would not have been his worst deed.

[Don Marshall]

That's terrifying. Just from a. From a fear perspective, just like how you treat the dead I think is very indicative of, like, from a cultural perspective, it's very telling. Yeah, exactly. And for Saruman, a, you know, a wise, supposedly very wise and powerful, an

[Alan Sisto]

angelic being of all, you know, incarnate form, but still. Yeah, I mean, I think. I think what the text might be referring to here is his worst deed. What do you think, Don? The creation of the Uruk? Hai. I don't even want to think about what horrible things he needed to do to people.

[Don Marshall]

Yes, I think there's no doubt in my mind. Yeah, there's a.

[Alan Sisto]

There's a.

[Don Marshall]

Because of the implications. I think for sure that the. I think Tolkien, especially with the creation of life, looks upon it with a level of. Of, you know, there's only one person or only one being ERU Illuvitar, that's able to do it. All others are a kind of, you know, not necessarily a corruption because of the Dwarves and owl, but because of, you know, the attempts to create life and to create subjects that you can rule over is some nasty implications.

[Alan Sisto]

What about There is a thought. And he would have found them long before Grima Wormtongue was involved. But remember what he accuses Grima of at the end of the story? Yep. Oh, you're Lotho. Grima ate him. Yeah. I mean, the accusation of cannibalism now at this point, though, they're just bones. So I don't think. I mean, he does treat him like a dog. He calls him a dog. He calls him a cur. Oh, gosh. Oh, gosh, that's just even worse.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, no, thank you.

[Alan Sisto]

No, we'll just leave it there and move into the. Move into the appendix. So if you are reading along in the story, folks, move past the footnotes now because we've already covered those in the story or in the text of the story, and we're going to move on to the appendix. Don, would you read the first part of that for us?

[Don Marshall]

The Numenorean Ranga was slightly longer than our yard, approximately 38 inches. Owing to their great stature, therefore 5000 Rangar would be almost exactly the equivalent of 5280 yards. Our 5277 yards, 2ft and 4 inches. Supposing the equivalence to be exact, this cannot be determined being based on the lengths given in histories of various things and distances that can be compared with those of our time. Account has to be taken both for the great stature of the Numenoreans, since hands, feet, fingers and paces are likely to be the origin of names of units of length and also of the variations from those averages or norms in the process of fixing and organizing a measurement system, both for daily use and for exact calculations. Thus, 2 rangar was often called man high, which at 38 inches gives an average height of 6ft 4 inches. But this was at a later date when the stature of the dunedain appeared to have decreased and also was not intended to be an accurate statement of the observed average of male stature among them, but was an approximate length expressed in the well known unit ranga. The ranga is often said to have been the length of the stride from rear heel to front toe of a full grown man marching swiftly but at ease. A full stride might be well nigh a ronga and a half. It is however said of the great people of the past that they were more than man high. Elendil was said to be more than a man high by nearly half a ronga, but he was accounted the tallest of all the Numenoreans who escaped the downfall and was indeed generally known as Elendil the Tall. The Eldar of the elder days were also very tall. Galadriel, the tallest of all the women of the Eldar, of whom tales tell, was said to be man high, but it is noted according to the measure of the Dunedain and the men of old, indicating a height of about 6ft 4 inches. The Rohirrim were generally shorter, for in their far off ancestry they had been mingled with men of broader and heavier build. Eomer was said to have been tall of like height with Aragorn, but he with other descendants of King Thengel were taller than the norm of Rohan, deriving this characteristic together in some cases with darker hair from Morwen Thengel's wife, a lady of Gondor of high Numenorean descent.

[Alan Sisto]

Lots of fun little details to talk about here. We move. Oh yeah, into this appendix. It's an appendix to the story of the disaster of the Gladden Fields, and it comes from a quote note associated with the part of the story that we talked about last week. And it was in the portion of the story early on where we were discussing the two different routes that Isildur could have traveled north.

[Don Marshall]

And it's all Tolkien's own world words here, starting with Tolkien explaining that he tried to convert all the in universe distances to our own modern equivalents, starting with a league, which in modern terms is around 3 miles.

[Alan Sisto]

The problem is though, that a league has never been an exact measurement and it has varied by culture and time. In ancient rome it was 1 1/2 Roman miles, which is about 1.4 modern miles. While on sea the English league is nearly three and a half miles, but that's because it's three nautical miles. But the English league and Tolkien was very English and I should say the English land league is most commonly defined as three miles, which is a little more than 4.8 kilometers for those of you in the rest of the world.

[Don Marshall]

Sure, but of Course, they didn't use league in Western. Tolkien says no, the Numenorean system of measurement was the lar we talked about last week. The word itself meant pause, but as a distance, it represented how long they could march during the hour.

[Alan Sisto]

And that was measured precisely. It was measured at 5,000 rangar, which are full paces. Tolkien explaining, the Ranga was slightly longer than our yard because the Numenoreans are tall. Specifically, it was approximately 38 inches.

[Don Marshall]

So doing the math, as he often did, 5,000 rengar would be almost precisely 5,280 yards, which is the length of a modern league.

[Alan Sisto]

Yep. Now, the funny thing is his math was more exact than almost precisely. He actually figured out that 5,000 rangar, or lar, was 5,277 yards, 2ft and 4 inches. So it's about 7ft shy of 3 miles. I'd call that pretty close.

[Don Marshall]

Incredibly close. Even allowing for error, Tolkien points out that the exact equivalent can't be determined with genuine precision, being based on the lengths given in histories of various things and distances that can be compared with those of our time.

[Alan Sisto]

Right. I mean, we have to take into account things. I mean, the size of the new Noreens wasn't just their height. Right. It would correlate to larger hands, larger feet, larger fingers, larger strides. Those measurements are typically, you know, if we look at our own primary world and how measurements came to be, it's often as a result of measuring those things. That's how units of length are conceived and named. He also says that we'd have to then consider the variations from those averages or norms, because you got to create a system that isn't random. Like, it isn't the distance between my wrist and my elbow, because that's going to be shorter than the distance between your wrist and elbow. If I'm building you a house, I need to have a precise length. So.

[Don Marshall]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

How do they vary from the averages or norms when they then create a system that needs to be used by everybody, including boat builders and house builders, people building fortresses and more. I mean, they would have to have a consistent and exact measurement, but we don't know exactly what it was. Right.

[Don Marshall]

So Tolkien then concludes, two rangar was often called man high. With a ranga that's two inches longer than our yard, that would mean the average man's height would be 6 foot 4, about 7 inches taller than the average man in the world.

[Alan Sisto]

7 inches taller, or about 3 inches taller than the average Dutch man. But nobody's saying the Dutch are descended From Numenoreans. The funny thing about this 6 foot 4 average height is that Tolkien says it was after their stature appears to have decreased. I mean they were taller back in the day. Another symbol.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, that's the. It's again, things are deteriorating. Yeah, it's that. That you're not as tall anymore.

[Alan Sisto]

It's the opposite of reality because you know, if you look at like suits of armor, you know, from, from 500 years ago or even 350 years ago, they're going to look like they're made for guys that are 56 and 5 7. Small frame too. You know, you're not, you're not going to find 6 foot 3, 240 pound guys that are running 44 like you do today at the NFL Draft Combine, you know.

[Don Marshall]

No, certainly not.

[Alan Sisto]

Those sorts of humans have evolved, whereas in this story humans are devolving. It's very interesting.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah. We also get the origin of the Oranga as measuring the distance from the back of a man's heel to the tip of his toe. Not at full stride, but mark marching swiftly, at ease. Once they're marching at full stride, that could be potentially 1.5 rongar. That's 57 inches. And that's a stride just 3 inches short of 5ft.

[Alan Sisto]

5 foot long stride. Sure. Very casual jumping with every step. Certainly maybe on the moon. So here's where we get. I'm trying to think of like astride as long as some short.

[Don Marshall]

You need a bouncy castle for something like that. A trampoline of some sort.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, yes you do. And this is also where we get some fun stuff about height and famous people in middle Earth history. Starting with Elendil, who was apparently half a ranga taller than man High. That's 19 inches taller than 6 foot 4. That would make him 7 foot 11. That's why we say 8 foot. If you watch basketball, there's a player by the name of Victor Wembanyama who's 7 foot 5. So he towers over normal people like you. You see him next to like LeBron James or Kevin Durant and you think those guys are short and of course they're 6, 9 or 6 10. No, they're, they're, they're monstrously tall. But Wemby is even taller. I mean he's 7 foot 5. But, but Alinda was 6 inches taller than him. He's nearly a foot taller than Kevin Durant or Tim Duncan. We're talking about a literal giant of a man.

[Don Marshall]

I'm not typically used to looking up to people. I'm 6:1. I don't typically look up to people when I talk, but I can't imagine my Nerf. I'd just be. Yeah, he would.

[Alan Sisto]

It'd just be two feet taller than you.

[Don Marshall]

Wow.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Don Marshall]

Love that. We are also told that the Elves of the Elder days were very tall. Galadriel, 6 foot 4. Which means Celeborn was at least that tall. Very tall. They were. And the lady no less tall than the Lord.

[Alan Sisto]

I love that line. It tells us just how tall they were, really. When you do all the connections and things like, oh, well, Galadriel is 6 foot 4, so Celeborn was also 6 foot 4. Or at least that's all. So, all right. We move from tall to short. Throhirm. Not that they're short. They're just shorter. And they're shorter because their ancestry is mixed with men of broader and heavier build. And I'm trying not to feel called out because I am broader and heavier build. Right.

[Don Marshall]

Hey, there's no shame in being part of the Rohirrim.

[Alan Sisto]

None at all.

[Don Marshall]

No shame whatsoever.

[Alan Sisto]

None at all. That said, though, Eomer was of, like, height with Aragorn. And in fact, in Nature of Middle Earth, Tolkien writes that Aragorn, Elendil's direct descendant, must still have been a very tall and strong man with a great stride. He was probably at least 6 foot 6 inches. Aragorn was tall.

[Don Marshall]

Aragorn was very tall. Aragorn's got five inches on me.

[Alan Sisto]

And Eomer is of, like, height with Aragorn.

[Don Marshall]

They both do. They'd both be so much better at basketball than me. My goodness.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yeah. They'd make a great, like, two, three. Right. You got shooting guard and a small forward. You could even rotate them into both forward positions, especially if you've got a Lindell playing center. My goodness.

[Don Marshall]

And that means that Amer is taller than, I guess, most of the Rohirrim at this point because he's descended from Morwen, who Tolkien reminded us was a lady of Gondor of that high numenorean descent.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right.

[Don Marshall]

We skipped a closer look at her. The Christopher says adds a little bit of info to what we learned from her in Appendix A2 on Kings of Lamarck.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. And it's specifically that even though she was known as Morwen of La Sarnach, she actually wasn't from Lassarnach. She was originally from Belfalas, was kin to Prince Imrahil. Those two family lines actually come back together. When Eomer marries Imrahil's daughter Lothiriel, their

[Don Marshall]

son Alfwina is said to look a lot like his maternal grandfather, the kinsman of Imrahil. We also skipped a bit about Celeborn's name, which at one point meant silver Tall, but that's because you and James covered that in your time on the history of Galadriel and Caliborn.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, and because we didn't want to get into teleporto either. But yeah.

[Don Marshall]

Oh, no, there's. We've covered that up quite a bit.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Silver Tall. Silver tall.

[Don Marshall]

All right, moving right along, Alan, would you give us our next reading?

[Alan Sisto]

It'll also be the last as we close out the appendix on Numenorean linear measures. Such an exciting title, by the way. In another place, my father wrote of Hobbit stature in relation to that of the Numenoreans, and of the origin of the name Halflings. The remarks on the stature of Hobbits in the prologue to the Lord of the the Rings are unnecessarily vague and complicated, owing to the inclusion of references to survivals of the race in later times. But as far as the Lord of the Rings is concerned, they boil down to the Hobbits of the Shire were in height between 3 and 4ft, never less and seldom more. They did not, of course, call themselves Halflings. This was the Numenorean name for them. It evidently referred to their height as in comparison with Numenorean men, and was approximately accurate when given. It was applied first to the Harfoots, who became known to the rulers of arnor in the 11th century. Compare that with the entry for 1050 in the tale of Years, and then later also to Fallohides and Stoors. The kingdoms of the north and the south remained in close communication at that time and indeed until much later, and each was well informed of all events in the other region, especially of the migration of peoples of all kinds. Thus, though no Halfling, so far as is known, had ever actually appeared in Gondor before Peregrint took the existence of this people within the kingdom of Arthedain was known in Gondor, and they were given the name Halfling, or in Sindarin Pereon. As soon as Frodo was brought to Boromir's notice at the Council of Elrond, he recognized him as a member of this race. He had probably until then regarded them as creatures of what we should call fairy tales or folklore. It seems plain from Pippin's reception in Gondor that in fact Halflings were remembered there. And then Christopher points out that in another version of this note, more is said of the diminishing stature of both Halflings and Numenoreans. And then we get the last bit from the chapter. The dwindling of the Dunedain was not a normal tendency shared by peoples whose proper home was Middle Earth, but due to the loss of their ancient land far in the west, nearest of all mortal lands to the Undying Realm, the much later dwindling of Hobbits must be due to a change in their state and way of life. They became a fugitive and secret people, driven as men. The big folk became more and more numerous, usurping the more fertile and habitable lands to refuge in forest or wilderness. A wandering and poor folk, forgetful of their arts, living a precarious life, absorbed in the search for food and fearful of being seen.

[Don Marshall]

Okay, we wrap up this longer than expected chapter with a section on Halflings. A little bit unexpected here, if you stop to think about the disaster of the Gladden Fields.

[Alan Sisto]

Really, it is sort of a non sequitur. In fact, it was so much of a non sequitur that when I planned out these episodes, I'd forgotten about the appendix. And so it was one of these things where like, oh, oh, we've got to do the appendix here. So yeah, Tolkien starts this section of the appendix by essentially apologizing for the way he talked about Hobbit's stature in the Lord of the Rings prologue, calling those descriptions unnecessarily vague and complicated, particularly as it relates to their survival into our later days. But then he's just super clear about it, right? The Shire Hobbits were nearly always three to four feet in height. That's it. Rare exceptions. And of course, Bull roarer, who was 4 foot 5 was one of those exceptions.

[Don Marshall]

Exactly. And as we've seen from time to time in Lord of the Rings, Hobbits do not call themselves Halfling. You and Matt also talked about this in the Hunt for the Ring, talking about Gollum's time as a captive of Sauron and how that word wouldn't have come to his mind.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right.

[Don Marshall]

The reason they're called Halflings is because they're about half as tall as those man high six foot four Numenoreans.

[Alan Sisto]

Right. And that would be three foot two, which is taller than three foot, but shorter than four foot. The name was first given to the breed of Hobbits that we now know of as. As the Harfoots back When the kings of Aronor first encountered them. The word did eventually get applied to both the Fallahides and Stoors as well. The tale of years telling us that the kings of Arnor first encountered the Harfoots in the year 3rd age 1050. We read the Perianath are first mentioned in records with the coming of the Harfoots to Eriador in that year, the

[Don Marshall]

Fallowhides entered Eriador around a hundred years later. At that time, the stores moved down into the Angle, some into Dunland. The stores moved around a bit, leaving the angle in 1356. While the Shire was granted to the Hobbits led by the fallowhide brothers in 1601, the stores that were in Dunland come up about 1630.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay, so that covers like about a little less than 600 year period from the time the, the, the Harfoots are noticed by Arnor to the time that, that we're all up in the Shire together. Now, since Arnor and Gondor were in regular communication back in the day, their migration into Arnor was noted in both kingdoms. It's important because it wasn't until third age 1974 that Arnor disintegrates. So there's plenty of time. I mean, by that time the Shire has been around for over 340 years.

[Don Marshall]

Exactly. So even though no Hobbit had ever been seen in the South Kingdom of Gondor until Pippin showed up during the War of the Ring, the existence of Hobbits was still known. So Tolkien is saying that they were given the name Halfling again in connection with their height. The Sindarin translation is Perian.

[Alan Sisto]

Now we read that when Boromir first saw Frodo the Council, that he would have known immediately that he was a Halfling. I think that's pretty obvious because if you remember the last line of the prophetic verse and the Halfling Fourth shall stand. I, I think he would have immediately clicked yes, but it would have knocked him for a loop because I'm sure until then, like the text suggests, he would have thought they were made up creatures, you know, the trolls living under a bridge or, or gnomes or dwarves or fairies, things that aren't really in the primary world. And he would have been like, no, wait a minute, they're actually Halflings. Oh man, they do exist. Yeah. Sildur's Bane. We've got a problem.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, yeah, huge problem. Yeah. And in the prologue we read about Hobbits actually getting smaller. And here, among other places, We've read about the Dunedin getting shorter as well. Tolkien explains that this isn't normal for the Dunedin, it was because they lost Numenor, their ancient land far in the west, closer to Valinor, than any other place in Middle Earth.

[Alan Sisto]

I like that. You know, I think we were talking earlier about sort of. It's a reflection of. Of the degradation of so many things, you know. Yeah, but I think what Tolkien's saying is it's only happening to these men. This isn't happening to other men because other men didn't lose their home close to Valinor. So they are becoming more like normal men over the generations in terms of lifespan, in terms of height, in terms of all of these characteristics that would otherwise have differentiated them from the men of Middle. Earth. Earth. Like the further and longer they were away, the more distinct they were from the rest of men.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah. And it's through many long years that they start to lose that.

[Alan Sisto]

And then with the Hobbits, he also is saying it's not normal for them to get smaller. Why are they getting smaller? Oh, it must be because there's a change in how they're living. Right. They've had to become fugitive in secret, and that has made them as a race smaller over the years. And they had to become fugitive in secret because of men taking better lands to live on and to farm on, while the remaining Hobbits have to hide in forest or wilderness as quote, a wandering and poor folk. That is a sad sort of ending to this. Not just to the appendix or to the chapter, but to Hobbits. Like, that's how Hobbits end.

[Don Marshall]

It's, I think, Tolkien's way of acknowledging the transition that, you know, men are going to take over and continue to sort of drive out the. The fey creatures of the world. I mean, he. Look at the elves are leaving, the Hobbits are going down into the. You know, becoming into the. More into the forest.

[Alan Sisto]

They're becoming fugitive and secret.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, exactly. The Dwarves are, you know, hiding in their mountains. It's really as if the. The fey aspects of all things Middle Earth have started to go into hiding. And, you know, this is unfortunately a very unsatisfying ending, but no different than the rest of the. The fake creatures of the world.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a fair point. Well, the much later dwindling of the Prancing Pony must be due to a change in the state and way of life of its keeper, Barlow and Butterbur. He became a fugitive and secret person, driven to refuge with his mail bag Don, what does Bartleman have in that bag for us today?

[Don Marshall]

Alan, this is one that I get in my comments sections all of the time. And it comes very apt. As we did this reading, we read a lot about what would happen with the Ring and what powers people would get. But specifically because we did this reading today we read earlier in the text where Saruman found the chain that held the One Ring on Isildur's neck, the one that held the One Ring. The question is, what would have happened, though, if Saruman had actually found the One Ring itself? Oh, oh, does he keep it a secret? Right? Does he continue to work his subterfuge

[Alan Sisto]

or is it possible to keep it a secret? I mean, that.

[Don Marshall]

That was my question and. And again, that's sort of the thing that I struggle with when I try to answer questions like this. What does it mean to be able to hold the Ring? Do you, you know, have to make yourself known? Do you have to come forth as that Dark Lord? Or can you operate in secret like Saruman did, using, you know, more treachery, more of that silver tongue that he had?

[Alan Sisto]

That is a really interesting question because, you know, none of the Ring bearers from Smeagol on down are the powerful type, right? Galadriel doesn't find the Ring. Gandalf doesn't find the Ring. Even Aragorn isn't the one who finds the Ring. None of them possess the Ring. So we don't really have any indication that somebody of that power couldn't be secretive because these others are. I mean, Gollum takes it and hides under a Mountain for 500 years.

[Don Marshall]

Sure, he's a Hobbit, though.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. And Bill was able to take it and basically hide for, you know, decades. Frodo certainly doesn't announce himself as the Dark Lord when he takes the Ring, you know, but that's because none of them want to. My leaning is that Saruman, because he desires the One Ring and lordship, that he would move too soon and proclaim himself to be the new Dark Lord.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah. If I may, I did have a quote picked out for this particular.

[Alan Sisto]

Please do.

[Don Marshall]

This is Gandalf speaking about his conversation with Saruman at the Council of Elrond. He came in and laid his long hand on my arm and. And why not, Gandalf? He whispered. Why not the ruling Ring? If we could command that, then the power would pass to us. That is, in truth, why I brought you here. And I believe that you know where this precious thing lies, is it not so?

[Alan Sisto]

Ooh, tell me where it Is. Yeah, I love the whole. And, and Gandalf's reactions. What do you mean we and what do you mean us?

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

He can't share.

[Don Marshall]

The Ring cannot do that. Unfortunately.

[Alan Sisto]

No. Sanomon, I think, is incapable of denying himself the power that he believes the ring could give him.

[Don Marshall]

As a character.

[Alan Sisto]

He's incapable of that As a character. The power would be. Look, the ring already tempts to power. That's what it does.

[Don Marshall]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay. I don't think Solomon is capable of resisting that for a second. I mean, I think. I think before he even gets back to Orthanc, he's got that on his. On his finger and he's plotting to take over the world. That's who Solomon is. The question then becomes is he strong enough with it yet to defeat Sauron who would have to come out with all he has in that moment.

[Don Marshall]

Full force. Like absolute full force.

[Alan Sisto]

The Nazgul have no will.

[Don Marshall]

But Saurons Saruman can control the Nazgul, remember a little bit with his. He. When the Nazgul arrive in Isengard, he can persuade them to go away. I can't help but wonder if the ring gives Saruman silver tongue a little bit more of that. A little that more power.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, Tolkien talks about what would have happened if Frodo had put on the. Not he did put on the Ring. What if he'd put the Ring on at the crack of doom and not had it taken away from him and,

[Don Marshall]

and yes, and the Nazgul would have come up to him and greeted him

[Alan Sisto]

and they would have feigned obedience to him as their new lord and gotten him to come outside where Sauron would have taken it. Right. And is. That's sort of what I think might have happened here. But it would have been a harder job for the Nazgul to fight Saruman's voice because of his nature as a Maya, because of his inherent abilities and because he would be more likely to be able to wield the Ring and its power than Frodo could have. But I don't know if he would have been able to withstand Sauron even without the Ring. I think Saruman puts on the Ring, declares himself Sauron, comes, says thank you very much and takes the Ring back after absolutely wrecking Saruman and sending him to the Halls of Lamentation where he will be devoured and the soul will be devoured by the Lidless Eye for all eternity. You know that kind of thing. I love that line. I absolutely love that line. It's such a biblical thing, you know. Oh, sure. And it's perfect that it's the Witch King of Angmar. That's. That says it. But that. That moment on the Battle of the Planar Fields, right when he's speaking to Eowyn, he will bear thee away to the houses of Lamentation beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured and thy shriveled mind be left naked to the lidless eye. Yeah. I think Saruman regrets instantly. Not instantly, but within a few days regrets. His choice.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Well, there's.

[Alan Sisto]

There's your. Yeah.

[Don Marshall]

Choices were made. Decisions were made. Not all good ones, probably.

[Alan Sisto]

All right, well, folks, thank you for joining us for another episode of the Prancing Pony Podcast. Please come back again next week when we sit down for a long chat with everyone's favorite military and ancient historian, Dr. Brett Devereaux.

[Don Marshall]

Cannot wait for that.

[Alan Sisto]

It is so much fun.

[Don Marshall]

So much fun. Cannot wait. Alan and I would like to thank the members of Team PPP editor Jordan Rannels Barleyman, Becca Davis, Social media manager Casey Hilsey, event and Patreon community coordinator Katie McKenna, graphic artist Megan Collins, video editor Yonatan Lazens and website guru Phil Dean.

[Alan Sisto]

And please take a minute to check out the the prancingponypodcast.com it's where you'll find show notes, outtakes, Prancing Pony ponderings, and our fully revamped PPP merch store. And that storefront is where you can get all sorts of cool PPP merch, including the amazing chapter art that Megan's been doing for us for nearly four seasons.

[Don Marshall]

Now, we are all about the books here at the Prancing Pony Podcast, so be sure to visit our library page. We try to make sure that any book we've mentioned on the show is linked there for you to purchase. We do get a small amount of compensation when you make that purchase, so we do thank you for that.

[Alan Sisto]

Indeed we do. We also want to thank our patrons at the Kirdan's contribution tier. I'll start with Dimay in Alaska, Chad in Texas, Joseph in Michigan, Kathy from North Carolina, Brian in the uk, Jerry from Washington, Irwin from the Netherlands, Ben in Minnesota, Anthony in Texas, Zaksu in Illinois, Joshua in Massachusetts, Lucy in Texas, Texas, Erica in Texas, James in Massachusetts, Ann in Kentucky, and Sean in New Jersey.

[Don Marshall]

There's also Mason in California, Maureen from Massachusetts, Olivia in London, Robert in Arizona, Nick in Wisconsin, Lewis in South Carolina, Thomas in Germany, Craig in California, Kevin in Massachusetts, Joe in Maryland, D. Scott in California, Jeffrey in Michigan, Paul in Colorado, David from Connecticut and Teresa from Texas. Thank you all very much for your support indeed. Thank you and make sure you don't miss any episodes of the Prancic Pony Podcast. Subscribe now through Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music or your favorite podcast app.

[Alan Sisto]

And one last thing, as always, don't forget to send your thoughts comments on most of all your hobbit growth hormone for those modern day halflings to Barliman at the Prancing Pony.

[Don Marshall]

Podcast.com Barleyman does have a lot of mail to sort through though, so we'll try to get to yours just as soon as we are able.

[Alan Sisto]

As always though, this has been far too short a time to spend among such excellent and admirable listeners. But until next time, I have been

[Don Marshall]

Don Marshall, the obscure Lord of the Rings Facts guy and I was joined by Alan Sisto, a man of ancientry and potency, the man of the west himself. Thank you. We'll see you next time.