416 – The Sound of Silence

Summary

---

The Prancing Pony Podcast

Episode 416 – The Sound of Silence

June 7, 2026
Hosts: Alan Sisto & Don Marshall

---

Episode Overview

In this episode, Alan and Don embark on the first of a two-part deep dive into the enigmatic Druedain—the mysterious “Wild Men” of Middle-earth’s Druidon Forest, legendary for their silence, skill, and laughter. Drawing on Unfinished Tales, The Silmarillion, linguistics, and footnotes, they explore the origins, characteristics, cultural history, and enduring myths of these singular people, with plenty of Tolkienian humor and signature tangents. Along the way, the hosts examine the intertwined histories of the Druedain and the Folk of Haleth (the Haladin) and speculate on what makes these “strange” people of Beleriand such an unforgettable part of the legendarium.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Welcoming the Listeners & Setting the Scene

• Alan and Don trade friendly (and slightly brutal) banter, setting a pub-like tone.
• [02:33] Don: “Good things come in short, ugly packages. Apparently, the Druedain too.”
• Openness to all Tolkien fans—books, films, TV, games—emphasized.

2. Philology Fair: The Linguistic Roots of "Wose" and "Wild Man"

• [03:55] Alan: Kicks off an exploration of the Druedain’s many names—Druig (self-designation), Woses, Wild Men, Men of Druidon Forest—and the real-world and heraldic origins of “woes.”
• Tolkien’s method: “Woses” is not invented but a modernization of an Old English word ("wuduwasa"), referencing wild men “clad in leaves” and appearing in medieval coats of arms.
• [06:27] Don: Explains the European “wild man” archetype in folklore and heraldry—not quite a Sasquatch, but an outsider figure.
• Sir Gawain and the Green Knight contains “woodwos,” a plural for wild men Gawain fights.
  • [07:53] Alan: “Somewhile with wood woes that wo ned in the Canaris, which means apparently sometimes he fought with wood woses that dwelt in the crags.”
• Notable Tolkien reference: In The Children of Hurin, the derogatory use of "wood woes" for Turin, equating these people with marginalization and otherness.

3. The Haladin and Their "Strange" Customs

• Before delving deep into the Druedain, Alan and Don profile the Folk of Haleth:
  • The most distinct of the Three Houses of the Edain.
  • Warlike, isolationist, “people apart”, with their own language and customs.
  • Notably, their women fought alongside men—rare for Tolkien’s cultures.
  • [15:21] Don: “Since they dwelt in the woods, that meant that they were especially skilled at fighting in that kind of terrain...even orcs trained in forest fighting still don't go near their lands.”
  • The role of women is dissected, including population effects and footnotes on marriage/fecundity.
• Intermarriage with other Edain—e.g., Hareth marries Galdor (House of Hador), leading to Húrin and Huor.
• Conclude: Haladin valued independence, had small population and a “strange”—by the standards of other cultures—openness to “other” peoples.

4. The Arrival and Nature of the Druedain

• [24:19] Alan: Haladin’s “strangest custom” was welcoming another entirely different people—the Druedain (or Druig), who lived alongside them but apart, in small family groups.
  • Lived in friendship but maintained independence.
  • Spoke the Haladin language, with their own unique words.
  • Comparison: Living as Hobbits did among Men in Bree, “but no kinship between the Druedain and Hobbits.”

5. Descriptive Portrait of the Druedain

Physical and Personal Traits

• [29:40] Don (reading from Unfinished Tales):
  • Stout, about four feet high, broad, short thick legs, wide faces, deep-set black eyes, flat noses, almost no facial hair.
  • Wide mouths are expressive, laughter is “rich and rolling...pure merriment untainted by scorn or malice.”
  • Inherited suspicion from Elves/Men for their “unloveliness,” but deeply beloved for their character and humor.
• [39:34] Don: “Their laugh, as we mentioned before, is something else entirely. Described as pure merriment untainted by scorn or malice.”
• Glowing red eyes in anger—a unique feature among Tolkien’s peoples.

Relationships and Reputation

• Not long-lived; small, dwindling population, heavy losses in battles with orcs.
• Admitted by the Elves to the rank of Atani (the noble line of Men).
• Rumors: Some believed orcs were bred from the Druedain—a slander explicitly refuted within the text, with orcish laughter contrasted to Druedain’s (“as different as the light of Aman from the dark of Angband” - [41:13] Alan).

6. The Fate of the Druedain in Beleriand and Númenor

• After Beleriand’s destruction, only “a few families, mostly women and children,” survived, fleeing to the Mouths of Sirion.
• [47:10] Don (footnote passage):
  • The Druedain’s foresight is stressed; some sailed with the Edain to Númenor but disliked the sea and did not take part in later wars.
  • Sensed “the Great Isle no longer feels sure under our feet,” and left Númenor before its fall—“almost as if they're seeing the fall way ahead of time.”
  • [51:02] Alan: “The island no longer feels sure under our feet. There is something that we see strongly implied...their deep connection with the Earth itself.”

7. Culture, Skills, and Ethics of the Druedain

Craft and Abilities

• Gifted trackers, teaching others but excelling beyond them because of superior scent and keen eyesight.
• [60:29] Don: “They could smell an orc further away than a man could see that same orc.”
• Knowledge of plants rivaled the Elves, self-taught and quick to adapt to new lands.
• Strong moral code: prohibited use of poison even in war, except against orcs—“their own little Geneva Convention” ([62:02] Alan).

Technology and Art

• Preference for flint and stone tools; little interest in metalworking due to scarcity and cultural inclination.
• No writing system; used sign-based markers for practical communication.
• Great skill in wood and stone carving; created vivid carvings of animals, themselves, and especially “grim jest” statues depicting orcs fleeing (“scarecrows” to ward off orcs).

8. Stillness, Silence, and the "Watchstones"

• [76:24] Don: “They are rather good statues themselves. … They had the capacity for utter silence and stillness for days.”
• Served as lookouts, blending in so perfectly with their own carved images that outsiders couldn’t tell the difference.
• Notable story: A Druedain carves a watchstone of his father, sits in silent recollection; a traveler, not realizing one is alive, sits to rest and is startled when the living Druedain asks for the traveler’s cloak to be moved ([81:07] Alan: “Move to the other one, he’s just a sculpture. I would like to stand up and stretch my legs.”)
• Skill used in grief, reflection, and especially for stealthy guard duty—vigilance so intense intruders could feel it as a “hostile menace.”
• Their shrill whistle signal, “painful to endure,” makes them invaluable guards and beloved by the Haladin.
• Both their friends and enemies believe their statues to be magically powerful.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• [05:52] Don: “Yeah, I mean, I fit that description [wild, hairy man clad in leaves] to a T, folks. You can't see him—and it's probably a good thing.”
• [13:55] Don: “But here we get to talk about [the Haladin] basically for their own sake, even if briefly, as an intro to the Druedain themselves.”
• [41:22] Don: “One day, I hope that my laughter is compared to the light of Aman. That just feels like…isn’t that great?”
• [81:07] Alan (on the watchstone story): “Move to the other one, he’s just a sculpture. I would like to stand up and stretch my legs.”
• [92:36] Alan: “You couldn’t stay awake for 72 hours and sit perfectly still…But this is pretty amazing because they also, let’s not forget, they have black eyes that glow red when they’re angry.”

---

Speculation & Deeper Analysis

What if the Druedain Stayed in Númenor?

• [95:27] Don: “What changes in Númenorean culture do the Druedain essentially just assimilate into…or are there changes that these supernatural, Fae-adjacent people bring?”
• [98:04] Alan: “If they're still there when Sauron arrives, they're the first…victims. He would know that he's not gonna be able to trick them because there's no way of tricking them if they've got that kind of insight…”

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:55] – Philology Fair: names, “wose” & wild men linguistics
• [12:13] – The Haladin: society, customs, women warriors
• [24:19] – Introduction of the Druedain among the Haladin
• [29:40] – Druedain's physical and character description
• [47:10] – Druedain in Nūmenor: foresight, exile, and fate
• [55:45] – Skills: Tracking, plant knowledge, mutual aid, and ethics
• [66:56] – Language and tools: signs, stone vs. metal
• [73:00] – Artistry: carving, watchstones, and cultural meaning
• [76:24] – Silence, stillness, and the Watchstones legend
• [81:07] – The story of the watchstone and mistaken identity
• [95:27] – Speculation: What if the Druedain had remained in Númenor?

---

Additional Insights

• The Druedain’s combination of marginal status, practical gifts, and mystical powers presents a unique archetype in Tolkien’s world—“Fae-adjacent” but fundamentally human, with unexpectedly touching depth.
• Both Haladin and Druedain are shown as “people apart,” their story suffused with themes of loss, endurance, and the ambiguous magic of belief.
• Linguistic digressions and references to the nomenclature show Tolkien’s method—names matter, and etymology reveals depth.
• The episode closes with plans for the next installment: “The Faithful Stone” story and further explorations of the Druedain in the Second and Third Ages.

---

Episode in a Nutshell

With warmth, wit, and deep lore, Alan and Don animate the mysterious history of Tolkien’s wild men, from etymology and heraldry to heart-stopping statues and infectious laughter—proving that even the “unlovely” are worthy of song and study.
“Merriment untainted by scorn or malice”—the spirit of the Druedain, and of the Prancing Pony’s fandom itself.

---

Transcript

[Alan Sisto]

Summer always changes the way I dress. I find myself gravitating towards lighter, more breathable fabrics, but I still want to feel put together. That's one of the reasons I keep coming back to the quince pieces in my wardrobe and why I've added a few more. Their high quality essentials look and feel incredible. Soft, organic cotton, super breathable linen and more. Now, as always with quints, you get that balance of an upscale look and feel without the upscale markup, like their European linen shirts that start at only $34 or their organic cotton tees for just $25. I've been wearing my linen shorts now that the weather's warm, and I'm always reaching for the assortment of cotton tees that I own. Everything you find at Quint's is priced at half, sometimes more like 80% off compared to what you'd find with similar brands. That's because they work directly with the factories and cut out the middleman. So you pay for quality materials and workmanship and not brand markup. And they've gone far beyond clothing, too. You can get bedding, cookware, luggage and more, and it's all to the same standard. Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com pony for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com pony for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com pony mom, can you tell me a story?

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Sure. Once upon a time, a mom needed a new car.

[Alan Sisto]

Was she brave?

[Narrator/Advertiser]

She was tired mostly. But she went to Carvana.com and found a great car at a great price. No secret treasure map required.

[Alan Sisto]

Did you have to find a dragon?

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Nope. She bought it 100% online from her bed, actually.

[Alan Sisto]

Was it scary?

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Honey, it was as unscary as car buying could be. Did the car have a sunroof? It did, actually. Okay, good story. Car buying. You'll want to tell stories about. Buy your car today on delivery fees may apply.

[Alan Sisto]

Good evening, little masters, and welcome to episode 416 of the Prancing Pony podcast, where I have retained many practices that seem strange to the Eldar and the other Atani.

[Don Marshall]

And I certainly don't want to know what those practices are.

[Alan Sisto]

Yep.

[Don Marshall]

Pull up a bench in the common room and join us. I am Don Marshall, known as the obscure Lord of the Rings facts guy. And I am here with the man of the west, who, to the eyes of the elves and other men, is unlovely in looks, Mr. Alan Sisto.

[Alan Sisto]

Wow, man. Oh, that was really brutal. All right. I had. I should have known that was coming. All right, thank you, Don. Folks, join us as the Druidyne's laughter proves wonderfully contagious. And we begin a two episode look at the mysterious people that the Druidyne are. And we read about them in the Unfinished Tales.

[Don Marshall]

Good things come in short, ugly packages. Apparently, the Druidyne too. Folks, no matter whether you came to Middle Earth through the books or the films, the TV show or something else, each of you is welcome here in our common room. The Prancing Pony podcast continues in our 10th season of Reading and talking our way through Middle Earth with conversation, digression, and even some speculation.

[Alan Sisto]

I might just have to end the show right here though, man. My entire. I'm just done, man. No, that's all good. Of course, we do have not only the conversations, digressions and speculations, we have bad jokes and apparently really, really insulting jokes at that. But our purpose is not to make fun of each other. It is to dive deep into the lore. It's to discuss the story, our favorite characters, themes, talk about Tolkien's inspirations and a whole lot more.

[Don Marshall]

And if you probably couldn't already tell, while we take the work very seriously, the same cannot be said about ourselves. We are just a couple of friends chatting at a pub. And we are so glad you've joined us.

[Alan Sisto]

Indeed we are, and I'm sure you'll be glad you joined as well. But before we get to today's chapter discussion, it's time for fan favorite Philology Fair. Always love that. Today we begin a closer look at the Druidina. They call themselves the Druig, but we know them by some other names, including the wild men in the Lord of the Rings, though our introduction to them is a bit different. And in fact, they're never called the Druedyne in that book. The closest we get is the Men of Druidon Forest.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah. Instead, we get them by another name. As Merry hears the drums, he wonders if it's the enemy. After Elfhelm trips over him, mistaking him for a tree root, the Marshal explains, you hear the Woses, the wild men of the woods. So today we're going to be taking a look at the word woes. You might be surprised to learn that it isn't one of Tolkien's invented words.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. In the nomenclature, Tolkien explains that this word represents modernized, the Rohan word for old men of the woods. It is not a purely invented word. The Supposed genuine Rohan word was wasa, plural wasan, which, if it had survived into modern English, would be woses. It would have been better to call the wild men wood woses, for that actually occurs in Old English, wudawassa, glossing faunus satyrus. Savage men, evil creatures. And that's Tolkien's explanation in the nomenclature. He goes on to say that this word wudewassa became wudozes, which he says wood was often corrupted to wood houses and survives in heraldry, since the wood house equals a wild hairy man clad in leaves, common as a supporter to arms. Now, we know what your coat of arms needs to include you as a wild hairy man clad in leaves.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, I mean, I fit that description

[Alan Sisto]

to a T, folks. You can't see him, and it's probably a good thing, but he is currently

[Don Marshall]

clad in leaves and incredibly hairy arms. So what Tolkien is talking about here, Alan, is the medieval image of the wild man, the mythical figure of a human being covered in hair who is believed to live in the forest, basically outside the boundaries of the civilized world. This is, at least by medieval standards. So not exactly a Sasquatch.

[Alan Sisto]

Not too far, but, yeah, the idea is there, isn't it?

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. This image of the wild man was almost a common trope in heraldry, appearing in dozens of European coats of arms across Europe and often seen holding a shield or literally supporting the coat of arms of the family in question.

[Alan Sisto]

That's fascinating. And Tolkien explains more in the nomenclature. And I love how he does this. Right. This is just a guide that he wrote for translators so they would know what words to translate and what words to leave in. So he explains there the origin of this idea. That is, the idea of the wild man as the wood woes was no doubt the actual existence of wild folk, remnants of former peoples driven out by invaders, or of outlaws living a debased and savage life in forests and mountains, which, as Tolkien says, explains the use of wasa, a word that Tolkien says meant originally a forlorn or abandoned person. But it's very interesting that over time, wudawasa became corrupted into modern English as woodhouse.

[Don Marshall]

I doubt it will come as a shock to discover that Tolkien knew the Middle English form of this word as well. Wood was because it appeared in Sir Gawain. And the Green Knight, though in a bit of a surprise, does not reference to the Green Knight himself, even if he fits the sort of green man, wild man archetype to a degree.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Now, in Sir Gawain, Wodwos is apparently a plural. The word appears actually in a list of various creatures and monsters that Gawain fights while he's on his journey. And I'm going to try to tackle a little Middle English here. Somewhile with wood woes that wo ned in the Canaris, which means apparently sometimes he fought with wood woses that dwelt in the crags. Now, the ring of words, which, by the way, everybody, if you're a Tolkien fan, you should have this book on your shelves. A tremendous resource. It reminds us that Tolkien's modernized form of the word wood woes appears elsewhere in the legendarium, specifically in the Children of Hurin. Cyrus the bully elf of Menegroth taunts Turin at Thingol's table, calling him wood woes. No less than three times in about less than three minutes, we read. Then Turin took up a drinking vessel and cast it in Syra's face, and he fell backward with great hurt. And Turin drew his sword and would have run at him, but Mablung restrained him. Then Cyrus rising, spat blood upon the board and spoke as best he could with a broken mouth. How long shall we harbor this wood woes? Who rules here tonight? The king's law is heavy upon those who hurt his lieges in the hall, and for those who draw blades there, outlawry is the least doom outside the hall. I could answer you. Wood woes.

[Don Marshall]

Oh, heavy stuff. And then just after that, we read. Then Mablong said to Cyrus, what ails you tonight? For the evil I hold you to blame. And maybe the king's law will judge a broken mouth. A just return for your taunting.

[Alan Sisto]

That's. That's Mablong basically saying, mess around. Find out, man.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah,

[Alan Sisto]

Mablog, I love that. Absolutely is Mablung of the heavy hand. And no subtlety.

[Don Marshall]

Absolutely none, no. He goes on to say, if the cub has a grievance, let him bring it to the king's judgment, answered Cyrus. But the drawing of swords here is not to be excused for any such cause. Outside the hall. If the wood woes draws on me, I shall kill him. Big words.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, big words. Syras. But you know what? You need to check the scoreboard, because wood woes one, bully elf zero.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, he's not winning that one, I don't think.

[Alan Sisto]

No, but that's Woodrows for you. Yeah, it is.

[Don Marshall]

Alan, would you like to get us started with our first portion of the chapter discussion?

[Alan Sisto]

I will. And it's a portion of the chapter about the druedain, in which the druedain make no appearance. The folk of Haleth were strangers to the other Atani, speaking an alien language. And though united with them in alliance with the Eldar, they remained a people apart among themselves. They adhered to their own language, and though of necessity they learned Sindarin for communication with the Eldar and the other Atani, many spoke it haltingly, and some of those who seldom went beyond the borders of their own woods did not use it at all. They did not willingly adopt new things or customs, and retained many practices that seemed strange to the Eldar and the other Atani, with whom they had few dealings except in war. Nonetheless, they were esteemed as loyal allies and redoubtable warriors, though the companies that they sent to battle beyond their borders were small, for they were, and remained to their end, a small people chiefly concerned to protect their own woodlands. And they excelled in forest warfare. Indeed, for long, even those orcs specially trained for this dared not set foot near their borders. One of the strange practices spoken of was that many of their warriors were women, though few of these went abroad to fight in the great battles. This custom was evidently ancient, for their chieftainess Haleth was a renowned Amazon with a picked bodyguard of women. The strangest of all the customs of the folk of Haleth was the presence among them of people of a wholly different kind, the like of which neither the Eldar in Beleriand nor the other Atani had ever seen before. They were not many, a few hundreds maybe, living apart in families or small tribes, but in friendship as members of the same community.

[Don Marshall]

All right, I know we said this was a two episode look at the Druedain, and I promise we will get there, but to get there, we have to start with the Halidin, the folk of Haleth.

[Alan Sisto]

That is true. Now, before that, though, we want to go briefly back to the introduction to Unfinished Tales as a whole and talk about what Christopher had to say about the inclusion of this section in the book.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, he explains that towards the end of his life, my father revealed a good deal more about the wildmen of the Druidon Forest in Anorien and the statues of the Pukal men on the road up to Dunharrow.

[Alan Sisto]

That makes me wonder, did Tolkien receive a lot of questions about them? I mean, they're not mentioned in the published letters, aside from a very brief mention of the conversation between Han, Berichan and Theoden, which is actually in a footnote. So maybe Tolkien just wanted to learn more about them himself.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah. Christopher then explains that this section, the one that talks about The Druedyne in Beleriand in the First Age and includes that wonderful story the Faithful Stone, all come from a long, discursive and unfinished essay concerned primarily with the interrelations of the languages of Middle Earth.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, that is, of course, actually a piece that Christopher publishes in full later in the Peoples of Middle earth, which is volume 10 of the history of Middle Earth in a piece called the Atani and Their Languages Found in Of Dwarves and Men. And we'll go to that for more when it's called for. For now, though, let's go back to the chapter and the introduction about the folk of Haleth. Now, I've spent some time talking about this rather different group of people on today's Tolkien times lately. Not on their own, but for them being the origin of groups of men like the Dunlendings.

[Don Marshall]

But here we get to talk about them basically for their own sake, even if briefly, as an intro to the Druidain themselves. And I think it's important to note that even though they are Atani, they were not connected to a House of Beor and the House of Hador. They spoke a different language and remained a people apart.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Now, they did intermarry at times, most notably Hareth, who married Galdor, the eldest son of Hador. Their famous sons are Hurin and Huor,

[Don Marshall]

probably some of the most famous sons in Middle Earth, for sure. And while they spoke Sindarin, so they could communicate with Elves and the other two houses of the Adain, they didn't speak it well. And the ones that kept to their own woods didn't use it. So they were definitely a people apart, keeping things sort of the way they had been, not really changing their customs.

[Alan Sisto]

That was interesting that they just. They didn't do. They basically were stuck in a rut. They didn't do anything new. Right. We read that they basically didn't change anything. They didn't adopt new things or new customs, and they kept their old practices. That's who they are. So still as different as they were, perhaps even odd to the other two houses they were thought of. They were seen as loyal allies and formidable fighters. I mean, yeah, they didn't send very large forces to these battles, but they were a small people to begin with, and their focus was, of course, primarily on just protecting their own lands.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah. And since they dwelt in the woods, that meant that they were especially skilled at fighting in that kind of terrain, basically to the point that the orcs trained in forest fighting still don't go near their lands. But one of the things that they do that is marked as strange is the inclusion of women in their fighting forces.

[Alan Sisto]

I thought that was really interesting, and I want to make sure we linger on that at least for a little bit. I know this. This part of the discussion isn't about the Druidyne, but it's interesting that Tolkien marks out two things that are strange about the holiday. One is that they have this unusual group of people that are not like anybody else anybody's ever seen, and they're sort of embedded in their culture. And the other is they have women fighters.

[Don Marshall]

That's strange to Tolkien, maybe. Yeah, it might be. I don't personally think of it as that strange, but I think to a man who is writing this in the 1940s and 50s, looking at this from sort of a. A Western perspective, a much more religious perspective, where, you know, the man is the head of the household and, you know, in charge. Yeah, I can definitely see why he would think it's strange, but to me personally, this is.

[Alan Sisto]

He's got some really great women fighters. That doesn't. I mean, Galadriel is described as being, you know, having tremendous martial talent, being, you know, a leader of soldiers. She herself is Amazonian in one of his letters. Yeah. You know, and she would basically regularly defeat other elves in feats of skill and things like that. So, yeah, it's interesting because we also see women fighters with the Rohirrim, with the Eotheod before them, and we even see women fighters among the bad guys with the. It's either the Wainriders or the Balchof. I think it's the Balchoth, because when they get to their villages and they're going to burn them down, they find that the women there are fighting right along with some of the old men. Anyway, interesting stuff. Now, even though they did have women fighters, they didn't typically include women in the forces that they sent to fight with their allies. So they basically would fight more when it was defending their own forests, their own woods. And I wonder if part of me is, well, why not if they are your good fighters? I mean, if your fighters are all good across the board, men and women, why not include women when you send the force to be allied for, let's say, the. I don't know, whichever battle, the. The Battle of Unnumbered Tears or. Or one of these other battles, if you're gonna go and be there, send all your good fighters. But I wonder if it's. They are a small people. Yeah, yeah.

[Don Marshall]

I Don't know. I, I, I can't really think of anything off the top of my head. Just wondering why that might be other than Tolkien's, you know, not necessarily inability to write female fighters, because clearly he can. I mean, we've got Eowyn right there as a shining example. I think this is simply just a cultural difference that Tolkien is writing about here.

[Alan Sisto]

That's fair. He does explain a little bit in the footnote, and we can kind of expand on this. This was sort of an old custom of theirs, though, the idea of women being involved in combat. But Tolkien explains in the footnote here that their involvement was rather a cause of their small numbers than its result. That is, the fact that women fought isn't the consequence of having a small population. It was a cause of having a small population. He says, continuing in the footnote, they increased in numbers far more slowly than the other Atani, hardly more than was sufficient to replace the wastage of war. Yet many of their women, who were fewer than the men, remained unwed. Now, that's interesting. So if you've got women representing a smaller portion of the population, which, I mean, we can get into the argument that genetically that makes no sense. I mean, we talked about that a little bit with the Dwarves and how few of them got married and how long they had, basically the fact they didn't have hardly any kids and the fact that they, they would have actually died out generations before Dwarves would have gone to extinction. But, you know, we'll forgive him that. It sounds like that's a similar problem here. Even if we're talking about 55, 45, and then a number of those don't get married, if only 35, 40% of the women get married and have children, and they don't have very many children, no wonder they're a small population. But now Tolkien's saying in the footnote, it's the fact that their women are fighting that is a cause of their small numbers instead of the result of their small numbers. That's interesting.

[Don Marshall]

This is, I mean, it sort of leads me to believe at least that they are fierce fighters, but they're dying and these battles, and to such an extent that they're, you know, struggling to maintain that kind of a population to, to stay alive.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, and that's the thing. You need the women in order to keep your population going. And maybe that's why they don't send them to the great battles with their allies. Like it's, it's our one chance to maintain any population control. Right. To Grow our peoples. We need to keep our women here because we're going to go send a thousand men to battle with the other two houses of the men, and 500 of them are going to come back. We got to replace those 500 over a few generations. How do we do that if we've also lost women? So that's an interesting point. I want to get more into that. But of course, these are two episodes on the Druedine, aren't they? So we'll keep moving along to talk a little bit more still, though, about the women that fight for the holidays.

[Don Marshall]

Yes. So their leaders or chieftainess was Haleth described here as a renowned Amazon whose personal guard was all female.

[Alan Sisto]

That's interesting. It's not just that she's a fighter. It's that there are enough women fighters that her personal guard is all women.

[Don Marshall]

Just reminds me of that scene in Endgame where all of the women fighters are all in one fighting against. I don't know if you've seen this. Have you seen Avengers Endgame? I have not.

[Alan Sisto]

No. No. That's okay, though. You can spoil it for me because there's so many of those films and I'm so far behind. Never catch up.

[Don Marshall]

There is a great scene where just all of the women are absolutely kicking butt and they're all on screen together and they're all charging forward, and it's this just wonderful moment to me, and I absolutely love it. So when I hear something like that, I'm thinking, all right, personal bodyguards. There's this chieftainess, and they're all just kicking butt. And that's really.

[Alan Sisto]

I love it. As somebody who plays Warhammer 40k, this just makes me think of the Sisters of Battle. Oh, absolutely.

[Don Marshall]

Absolutely. Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

So, yeah.

[Don Marshall]

There is also a footnote here from Christopher that sheds a little bit more light on them in general as he quotes Beor in the Silmarillion as describing the Haladin to Finrod as a people from whom we are sundered in speech. Fitting the alien language part we read at the beginning.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. And of course, the Silmarillion also says they remained a people apart. And they are described in chapter 17, which is of the coming of men into the west, being of lesser stature and less eager for lore than the House of Beor, who are already described as being less in stature than the House of Hador. Yeah.

[Don Marshall]

We also read that they used few words and did not love great concourse of men. And many among them delighted in solitude, wandering free in the green woods while the wonder of the lands of the Eldar was new upon them. Sounds like my kind of guys.

[Alan Sisto]

I found my people. I mean, I know that's going to surprise people.

[Don Marshall]

What do you mean?

[Alan Sisto]

Used few words? You just talk for a living. Yeah, I. I'm not a big crowds person. I delight in solitude. I could. I could do that. Anyway, we also get a really sad line of heavy foreboding, but in the realms of the west, their time was brief and their days unhappy.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, it is. Back to that footnote, though, Christopher adds, nothing is said in the Silmarillion about the Amazonian element in their society other than that the Lady Haleth was a warrior and the leader of the people, nor of their adherence to their own language in Beleriand.

[Alan Sisto]

Now that that's all done, we finally get a reference, though they're still not named, to the Druidain via the folk of Haleth, because as strange as it was for them to have women warriors, including a chieftainess with an entire personal made of women, it was seen as the strangest of all their traditions to have another entirely different people living among

[Don Marshall]

them as unusual people, different from anyone than the elves and the men had seen. Tolkien's footnote adds that the unusual people spoke the language of the Halidin after their fashion, while also retaining some words of their own.

[Alan Sisto]

They're described here as not many, a few hundreds maybe. So it's a very small population within what is already a small population.

[Don Marshall]

Exactly. And though they live among the Haladin, they're said to live apart in families or small tribes, but as friends and members of the same community with the folk of Haleth. That footnote here from Tolkien says that the way they lived together with the Haladin was after the fashion in which the men and hobbits of Bree lived together, but also points out that there was no kinship between the Druidyne and the Hobbits. So.

[Alan Sisto]

And that actually comes up again. We'll talk about that. I don't know if it's this episode or next. Tolkien was very conscious of. I've just described a race of short people that later on that like mushrooms. Oh, wait a minute. You know what? Forget the mushroom thing. We'll get there though. We'll get. If you want to know what's really worth your time when it comes to losing weight, skip the guesswork and get weight loss by HIMS. HIMS offers access to an affordable range of FDA approved GLP1 medications that now includes the Wegovy pill and the WeGovy pen plus lifestyle tips to support you along the way with WeGovy at hims lose up to 20% or more of your body weight when you combine it with diet and exercise and with a range of affordable GLP1 options. HIMSS makes it simple to find a weight loss approach that fits into your world and your wallet. If eligible, you'll get a treatment plan personalized to you and unlimited dosage changes as needed. Ready to reach your goals? Visit himss.com pony to get a personalized, affordable plan that gets you that's h I m s.com pony himss.com pony Weight loss by HIMSS is not available in all 50 states. WeGovy is the registered trademark of Novo Nordisk as To get started and learn more, including important safety information, WeGovy clinical study information and restrictions, visit HIMSS.com I'm too busy to get my shopping done in person these days, so most everything I buy, I buy online. It is such a pain to remember all the login info for every site and what payment methods are saved where. Sometimes though, I see that little purple pay button at the top makes it so much easier. No need to get my wallet out. No need to create a new account at yet another new vendor, Shopify makes it easy to just complete my checkout with one tap. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world, from household names like Mattel and Heinz to brands just getting started. Speaking of getting started, Shopify helps you get started building your online store with your own design studio and hundreds of ready to use templates to help you make your online presence match your brand style. From inventory to payments and analytics. To store templates, tackle all the important tasks with Shopify. No need for multiple websites or figuring out which platform has the tool you want to use. It's all in one place with Shopify. See less carts go abandoned and more sales go. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at free shopify.com pony go to shopify.com pony that's shopify.com pony study

[Don Marshall]

and play come together on a Windows 11 PC and for a limited time, college students get the best of both worlds. Get the unreal college deal everything you need to study and play with select Windows 11 PCs. Eligible students get a year of Microsoft 365 Premium and a year of Xbox game. Pass ultimate with a custom color Xbox wireless controller. Learn [e-mail] studentoffer while supplies last ends June 30, terms at aka mscollegepc.

[Alan Sisto]

Now. Soon we'll get back to a closer look at these people living among the Folk of Haleth. But before we do, I want to take a minute to thank the amazing community that has grown up around this show over the past decade. After all, there is a lot more talk going on at the Prancing Pony Podcast than just us.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, the PPP really does have a warm and welcoming listener community. If you've got questions or you just want to talk about how much you love Middle Earth, check out our common room on Facebook and across all social media. On Facebook, just look for the Prancing Pony podcast. Yep, there is a page, but you're going to want to join into the group for that great fan community now

[Alan Sisto]

on every social media platform other than Facebook. We are at Prancing Pony Pod and you can find our subreddit at R Prancing Ponypod. Now folks, please check out my daily show, today's Tolkien Times on all your favorite podcast apps. You can get your daily Middle Earth fix with everything from Tolkien Tuesdays to third Age Thursdays. Be sure to listen wherever you get your podcasts done. Continue. Please introduce us to the Druedyne.

[Don Marshall]

Gladly, Alan the Folk of Haleth called them by the name Drug, that being a word of their own language. To the eyes of the elves and other men, they were unlovely in looks. They were stumpy, four foot high, but very broad, with heavy buttocks and short thick legs. Their wide faces had deep set eyes with heavy brows and flat noses, and grew no hair below their eyebrows, except in a few men who were proud of the distinction, a small tail of black hair in the midst of the chin. Their features were usually impassive, the most mobile being their wide mouths, and the movement of their wary eyes could not be observed save from close at hand, for they were so black that the pupils could not be distinguished, but in anger they glowed red. Their voices were deep and guttural, and their laughter was a surprise. It was rich and rolling and set all who heard it, men or elves laughing too, for its pure merriment untainted by scorn or malice. In peace they often laughed at work or play, when other men might sing. But they could be relentless enemies, and when once aroused, their red wrath was slow to cool, though it showed no sign save the light in their eyes. For they fought in silence, and did not exult in victory, not even over orcs, the only creatures for whom their hatred was implacable. The Eldar called them Druedain, admitting them to the rank of Atani, for they were much loved While they lasted, alas, they were not long lived and were ever few in number. And their losses were heavy in their feud with the orcs, who returned their hatred and delight to capture them and torture them. When the victories of Morgoth destroyed all the realms and strongholds of elves and men in Beleriand, it is said they had dwindled to a few families, mostly of women and children, some of whom came to the last refuges at the mouths of Sirion.

[Alan Sisto]

And now we get to them. Not the Druedyne yet, but their own name for themselves in their tongue, Druig. And the physical description of these really unique people, what's interesting, though, is we don't start with the physical description. We start with the reaction to their physical description by the quote, unquote, important races, the elves and men to whom they appeared unlovely. I. I want to kind of play around with that a little bit. And. And what is Tolkien doing here? Instead of leading with a physical description and then concluding that the other races find them, you know, not conventionally attractive? This is what leads is not what they look like, but what other people think they look like.

[Don Marshall]

I. I think because he leads with this, he is sort of implying that even though the elves and the men, the ones we hear about the most, the ones that are the main characters, consider them unlovely despite physical appearance, they are not. Because of their character, at least for me, I find.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Don Marshall]

That they're. That's sort of a preface to. To say, hey, even though the elves and the men think that they're not, you, the reader, are able to look past these because you are a little bit more of. Of a learned person because. Able to explain. Yeah, because all of these. All of these wonderful, you know, descriptors. Right. Their laughter is pure merriment, untainted by scorn or malice. I mean, how many other peoples of Middle Earth are going to be able to say that? Yeah, like, there's. There's just. There's a certain level of. Of, I think, descriptor that Tolkien gave to these. These peoples that, you know, maybe they're not getting the credit that they are due, and that by starting with their appearance seeming unlovely to elves and men, Tolkien is trying to say, are we sure they're not just misunderstood?

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, I'm thinking, what if he'd flipped the script and said, you know, these people had been admitted to the rank of a Tani by the Elves, you know, for their deeds, but here's what they look like, and everybody thought they were unlovely. Right. Total. Total flip of the order. Does that change our perception of these people at all?

[Don Marshall]

I think it does, but I mean,

[Alan Sisto]

the initial perception at least.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, I think only because Tolkien puts so much of an emphasis on physical descriptors. You know, evil takes on a very physical manifestation sometimes.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, certainly. Nobody ever hears about the handsome Orcs, you know.

[Don Marshall]

Exactly, Exactly. There's. There's very little we hear about that dashing young Orc that's caught the attention of every other female Orc across Mordor. But it's almost a sort of throwaway line.

[Alan Sisto]

Why does it hurt so much? Sorry, I had to. It's just interesting here. It does seem to set up a lower bar by starting out with the fact that Men and Elves think they're unlovely. So we start at the bottom, and then we get the neutral, factual description of their physical appearance. And then we're told how much their laughter is infectious. And then we're told that they're admitted to the rank of Otani and that they hate the Orcs, like, because that's, like, the best.

[Don Marshall]

Right?

[Alan Sisto]

If you're. If you hate the Orcs, you are a good guy. I mean, that just, like, is the defining characteristic here.

[Don Marshall]

So which might be the most important part of it is their descriptor is that they hate the Orcs and that makes them the good guys, so.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly.

[Don Marshall]

Why not start there? Tolkien, come on.

[Alan Sisto]

It's just an interesting decision on his part to start with the reaction to their appearance rather than their appearance, and then to sort of build up. But anyway, it's so unique in the way he describes people. And I just thought it was worth lingering on for a bit. But, Don, tell us a little bit about what they look like. Right. What does the text tell us?

[Don Marshall]

Well, we've got someone that's 4 foot high, which is about the same height as the Dwarves, and generally taller than Hobbits. Broad in build with thick legs and heavy buttocks. Wide faces with eyes that are deeply recessed, which would create a. A very prominent brow.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. It would flatter noses, which, of course is going to mean wider nasal bases. And interestingly, even though they are in some ways a little bit like the Dwarves in terms of their height and their build, very unlike the Dwarves here, but more of a similarity with the Hobbits. They have no facial hair below their eyebrows, no sideburns, no mustache, no beard. I mean, you get the occasional guy who could grow a small tail of hair on his chin. Right. Like a. Like a single braid. Beard, but like scraggly and not very thick. You could sort of imagine. It's just interesting. And you wonder where is he drawing? Is he drawing any real world inspiration?

[Don Marshall]

That's unclear to me if he's, if he's trying to draw real world inspiration. But I'm always fascinated by how much emphasis Tolkien puts on facial hair especially. There's a whole section in the Nature of Middle Earth that focuses on beards alone.

[Alan Sisto]

The chapter's name is Beards. Yeah, yeah. And it, and it's the one that tells us that, that Aragorn, Denor, Boromir, Faramir, none of them would have facial hair at all. At all. At all.

[Don Marshall]

None whatsoever. So, so maybe there, maybe there's a, a little bit of a, of a hint there. I don't know.

[Alan Sisto]

But yeah, the fact that they don't is sort of, that makes them, yeah, again, more on the good side, closer

[Don Marshall]

in lineage than we would see otherwise. Because, you know, we, we hear about, you know, the people with the very thick beards and the Aothead and the, the Rohirrim and all of these, you know, Dwarven beards that are all very

[Alan Sisto]

unique and long and braided and.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, yeah. And, and it just seems like the complete opposite direction that Tolkien is taking it. No, they are very baby faced. They would make for some pretty great poker players because their faces didn't show much.

[Alan Sisto]

That's true. I mean, the text says basically their wide mouths are the only thing that showed a response. Their eyes couldn't be seen at all unless you were up close because they were black in color, so the pupil couldn't be seen. This is an interesting thing. I mean, sounds to me like he's saying not just the iris is black, but the entire cornea is black. Now that's obviously not a thing in the primary world. In fact, even black colored irises are not a thing. If it looks like somebody has black eyes, they just have super dark brown eyes due to a higher concentration of melanin in the iris. But it's never a black iris. No such thing actually exists, let alone a black cornea. But can you imagine like not being able to see the pupil or where they're looking because their entire eye is black?

[Don Marshall]

That's terrifying. Very terrifying. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And what about this? I don't know if it's a power, but this, this sort of ability of theirs that their eyes glow red when they get angry. So actually maybe they'd be easier to beat in poker. After all, they're not going to be Able to bluff that they got nothing. They're going to be all glowy red. I'm going to. I'm going to bet, you know, bet the house is all. You're bluffing, man. Yeah, yeah. Interesting. Yeah.

[Don Marshall]

We also get a very rich description of their voices. Described as low and throaty and gravelly. But their laugh, as we mentioned before, is something else entirely. Described as pure merriment untainted by scorn or malice.

[Alan Sisto]

So what a line. So rich.

[Don Marshall]

It's such a good line, so rich that even the elves and men who find these people unlovely start to laugh alongside them, start to laugh as well. And I think that's just showing how different these.

[Alan Sisto]

These.

[Don Marshall]

These folk are, but in such a positive way. You know, unlovely though they may be, you know, short in stature though they may be, they. They have all of these incredible qualities that others find quite delightful.

[Alan Sisto]

Merriment untainted by. I love that. What a. What a description. In fact, their laughter, it turns out, was evidence of their untainted nature. Tolkien tells us in the footnote to the Unfriendly who, not knowing them well, declared that Morgoth must have bred the orcs from such a stock. The Eldar answered, doubtless Morgoth, since he can make no living thing, bred Orcs from various kinds of men. But the Druedyne must have escaped his shadow for their laughter and the laughter of Orcs are as different as is the light of Amon from the dark darkness of Angband. But some thought nonetheless that there had been a remote kinship which accounted for their special enmity. Orcs and droogs each regarded the other as renegades. And we'll see some definite animosity towards Orcs later in the chapter. But what an interesting story. So people come along and be like, oh, they're short, they're ugly. I bet this is where Melkor got his orcs, right? He bred them from these. These droogs. The elves are like, oh, no, no, no, no. Have you heard them laugh? There's no way that they're related to the orcs. Listen to their laugh. What a great thing to say about the joy that wells up in their hearts when they're. They're experiencing that laughter.

[Don Marshall]

One day, I hope that my laughter is compared to the light of Amon. That just feels like, isn't that great?

[Alan Sisto]

Laughter compared to the light of Amon? That's beautiful. Just brilliant. Yep.

[Don Marshall]

Meantime, that same footnote is extended with Christopher adding, this was only one of several diverse speculations on the Origin of Orcs, before pointing out that in Return of the King, the laughter of Khan Buri Han is described, quote, at that old Han made a curious gurgling noise and it seemed that he was laughing. He is described as having a scanty beard that straggled on his lumpy chin like dry moss and dark eyes that showed nothing.

[Alan Sisto]

I got to say this. If somebody said my beard straggled on my lumpy chin like dry moss, I think I just shave it.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah. After a certain point, you got to give it up.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm just going to give up, man. I don't. I don't want my beard described like dry moss. That's. That's really pretty sad, this laughter, though. And I love that the curious gurgling noise, like, is that really what the laughter is? Okay. It seemed to be a reflection of their genial nature. They were typically laughing while they were working or playing. Men would sing, but the Druidine would laugh. But don't ever mistake that laughter for weakness. They're described as relentless enemies. And their anger was not quick to go away. It was not swift to dissipate at all. And honestly, that's just another similarity with Dwarves. They could notoriously hold a grudge for generations. So there's a lot. I feel like that they're more Dwarf like than they are Hobbit like.

[Don Marshall]

Agreed. Agreed. And. And when they did fight, though, it wasn't a source of pleasure or praise. Contrasting that with the Dwarves, especially. Right. They fought quietly. There's no battle cries. They don't celebrate wins. And this was true even over the Orcs. And they hated them, basically, unendingly.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Don Marshall]

Only now do we get them to name Druidyne, indicating that the Eldar accepted them as friends as the three houses of the Atani.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Now, the footnote here explains that some standalone notes from the professor tell us that their own name for themselves was Druchu. So that's D, R, U, G, H, U. But that G h is pronounced as aspirant, just like in Khan Brihan's name. And Druhu becomes simply Drew in Sindarin, thankfully, because then it's easier for me to pronounce. So grateful for that. The plurals of Dru are both Druin and Druath. And eventually the elves realize, look, these are good guys. They hate Morgoth, they hate the Orcs, so they're on our side. And then they add the Adan, which means man, and it turns the Dru into Druidain for plural or singular. Dru, Adan.

[Don Marshall]

And this, Christopher explains, marks both their humanity and friendship with the Eldar and their racial difference. From the people of the three houses of the Edain, we get an explanation of some other Sindarin words using Drew on its own, without the Adan or Edain elements. Drunos is the family of the Dru folk. Druith is the wilderness of the Dru folk.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. I love that, though, that they're the name being given the name Druidyne, taking their own word, Drew, or the Sinder inversion of their own name, Druhu, and turning that into Dru, and then adding the Adon element. This marks their humanity, their friendship with the Eldar, and the racial differences between them. And they're not mistaken for the Haladin or the House of Beor or the House of Hador, the Golden Head. They are their own distinct people, but they are clearly defined here as equal to them in terms of their humanity. Right. They are distinct from, but no less than the other houses of the Edain. And that's important because as we'll see later, that's not recognized by everybody. But I think we'll see that more next week than this. Going back to the words of the names, we're also told how those names, like Drew, change in Quenya, so Druhu becomes simply Ru and Ruatan, with a plural Ruatani. So back to the text, leaving that footnote behind. The text tells us that despite their unloveliness, they were in fact much loved while they were around.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, but like the folk of Haleth, they weren't around for long. They didn't have long lives, and there weren't very many of them. Add to that their losses in fights against the orcs who hated them basically just as much, and their numbers just, just could not grow.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, and the text here says that by the time the kingdoms of Elves and Men in Beleriand were destroyed, the entire people consists of just a handful of families, mostly women and children. So in terms of the timeline, we're talking about when the the men of Dor Lomin, their realm was destroyed in first age 472, 23 years later, the Elven realm of Nargothrond was destroyed. 495. And then another 11 years later, Doriath was destroyed. And four years after that, in 510, Gondolin. So in that 38 year span between Dor Lomin being taken over and then the last of the Elven kingdoms, Gondolin falling, all you've got left is just a handful of families.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah. And like many of the refugees of Beleriand, they all wound up at the mouths of Sirion.

[Alan Sisto]

There's a lengthy footnote here, but we should go ahead and take a look at it before we move on.

[Don Marshall]

In the footnote, we read about how these last Druedyne refugees, because of their status as Etani, were allowed to sail with them to the land of Gift, to Numenor. We read Tolkien's words here. In the peace of the New Land, they throve and increased again, but took no more part in war, for they dreaded the sea, which would make the journey there difficult. But compared to having no home in Beleriand, it's worth it.

[Alan Sisto]

That's fair. Yeah. I mean, dread the sea all you want, if that's your. If that's your only option, you'll take it, but you're not going to keep taking it, right? So you're going to take no more part in war. Now, as for what happened to them once they're there, since we don't hear of them coming with Elendil and his sons at the downfall, the footnote explains that their story is only recorded in one of the few legends that survived the downfall. Well, what legend was that? That's the story that Sara and I started off this season with, quote, the story of the first sailings of the Numenoreans back to Middle Earth. Known as the Mariner's Wife. The book should to raps have been better known as the Mariner's Long Suffering but Not Forever Wife. Or maybe just why no fault Divorce should have been permitted. Definitely.

[Don Marshall]

Better titles aside, Alan Tolkien continues, in a copy of this written and preserved in Gondor, there is a note by a scribe on a passage in which the Druedain in the household of King Aldarion the Mariner are mentioned. It relates that the Druedain, who were ever noted for their strange foresight, were disturbed to hear of his voyages, foreboding that evil would come of them, and begged him to go, no more.

[Alan Sisto]

Interesting. So there were not only Druedyne in Numenor, but there were Druedyne in the household of King Aldarion. So, you know, household servants, household workers of some kind. And they actually said, dude, you need to. Don't go. Don't do this. Right? Of course, his father had said that, his mother had said that. His wife has begged him.

[Don Marshall]

So everyone's saying that to him.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, don't go. So clearly their efforts didn't work. I mean, Mineldor and Arindis couldn't get Eldarion to stop, so it's not like these guys are going to have any more luck. That's when we read the Druidain departed in distress. From that time onward, the Druidine of Numenor became restless. And despite their fear of the sea, one by one or in twos and threes, they would beg for passages in the great ships that sailed to the northwestern shores of Middle Earth. They're leaving Numenor in droves. You know, it's almost like they're, they're seeing the Fall way ahead of time.

[Don Marshall]

Oh, absolutely. You, you look at, at them leaving.

[Alan Sisto]

When we were going through Aldarian Arrendus, one of the things we realized is that the downfall of Numenor begins a lot earlier than you might think. You know, you could say certainly. Exactly. You could say, okay, the downfall of Numero didn't happen until our Farazan brought Sauron back. And then it was inevitable. But you could really go much further back than that. You go back to the first of the kings that were jealous about, you know, the, the serial longevity of the elves and complaining about the ban of the Valar. By then the Shadow was on Numenor. Honestly, the Shadow was on Numenor when Aldarion was beginning to set up, you know, expansionist imperial powers on the coast of Middle Earth. And it's like, like the Druidain are seeing this. This is a bad idea. We are out of here.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah. And they definitely had their reasons ready to go. When asked if any asked, why would you go and whither? They answered, the Great Isle no longer feels sure under our feet. And we wish to return to the lands whence we came.

[Alan Sisto]

No longer feels sure under our feet. There is something that we see strongly implied in the text of the Lord of the Rings with the Druidyne, even though they're not called the Druidan at that point, and that is their, their proximity to nature, their deep connection with the Earth itself. That's interesting. The island no longer feels sure under our feet. Remember what it is that Numenor eventually faces? It's not that they're just depopulated and that everybody keels over and dies as some or whatever. The entire land is taken under the sea through the volcanic eruption of the Meneltarma. So the island no longer feels sure under our feet. Centuries before this would happen.

[Don Marshall]

That's some powerful force.

[Alan Sisto]

That's interesting. I don't think I realized that that was the connection, like they're literally feeling the land no longer. Be sure. Okay, then, time to go. Of course, that would impact the remaining population in Numenor. Right. And that's why we read thus, their numbers dwindled again slowly through the long years, and none were left when Elendil escaped from the downfall. The last had fled the land when Sauron was brought to it.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

So when the Dark Lord comes, even as a prisoner, definitely time to leave. I'm surprised they lasted that long. I mean, if they started leaving in the time of Aldarian and then over time, eventually leaving during Ar Pharazon's reign, that's a long time.

[Don Marshall]

It's a very long time. Yeah. Especially for a group of people who have such a small population.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Don Marshall]

You got to wonder how many of those of those peoples are going to even be on the island and how. I mean, Tolkien doesn't really discuss population sizes so much, but we certainly get an idea that it's much smaller than. Than normal. Christopher then continues on the footnote, pointing out that other than this one snippet, there is nothing in any of the other writings that suggest the presence of Druidine in Numenor.

[Alan Sisto]

That's interesting. I mean, we really like the idea of them being here. I do, at least. And it makes sense that the Halidin were brought over as well. But this is the only place where the idea is mentioned. Oh, except for one separate note, Christopher says, where his father wrote. The Edain, who at the end of the war with the Jewels, sailed over sea to Numenor, contained few remnants of the Folk of Haleth, and the very few Druedyne that accompanied them died out long before the downfall. So they left, but they also died out. You wonder, is that the historian's perspective who doesn't know that they left and just assumed there are no more, therefore they died out. Or did some of them genuinely die out and just not, you know, because as they were leaving, they couldn't reproduce the population? I don't know. It's interesting.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah. All right. With the downfall of Numenor and the Druidyne escaping out of the way. Alan, would you like to take us to our next reading portion?

[Alan Sisto]

I would indeed. In their earlier days, they had been of great service to those among whom they dwelt, and they were much sought after, though few would ever leave the land of the Folk of Haleth. They had a marvelous skill as trackers of all living creatures, and they taught to their friends what they could of their craft. But their Pupils did not equal them, for the Druedain used their scent like hounds, save that they were also keen eyed. They boasted that they could smell an orc to windward, further away than other men could see them, and could follow its scent for weeks, except through running water. Their knowledge of all growing things was almost equal to that of the elves, though untaught by them. And it is said that if they removed to a new country, they knew within a short time all things that grew there, great or minute, and gave names to those that were new to them, discerning those that were poisonous or useful as food. The Druedine, as also the other Atani, had no form of writing until they met the Eldar, but the runes and scripts of the Eldar were never learned by them. They came no nearer to writing by their own invention than the use of a number of signs, for the most part, simple for the marking of trails or the giving of information and warning. In the far distant past, they appear already to have had small tools of flint for scraping and cutting, and these they still used, although the Atani had a knowledge of metals and some smithcraft before they came to Beleriand, for metals were hard to come by, and forged weapons and tools very costly.

[Don Marshall]

So next we learned that they were very helpful to the folk of Haleth, of great service, it is said. So is this kind of like a mutual aid kind of situation, Alyn, do you think just with their many unique skills that they have, they could sort

[Alan Sisto]

of trade off with. I think so. I mean, I think there's an implication. Maybe there's a little bit of a master servant relationship going on, but if there is, I don't think it's out of a sense of superiority versus inferiority. It's more like we're living here among you, so we will serve you. But it's like a service of peers. I mean, it feels like that it's like they're getting something out of this, right? They're not.

[Don Marshall]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

They're not being forced to teach. They're not being forced to give their skills or their service to the holidayin. They're giving those skills in exchange for being a part of that community.

[Don Marshall]

So it is kind of a more mutual aid side of things?

[Alan Sisto]

I think so. I think so. I mean, it feels that way to me. But why aren't they living on their own? Why would they choose to live among the holidays? What benefit are they getting?

[Don Marshall]

You know, perhaps it's a population issue.

[Alan Sisto]

Maybe, as we mentioned before, they're both small populations so by combining forces, maybe they make it a little easier to both of them to survive the holiday. Maybe have skills that the Druidyne don't. And the Druidyne certainly have skills like tracking that would be of benefit to a small group. Yeah, well, whatever the case, they were very useful. So useful, in fact, that other people, not just the Haladin, wanted them. Sort of like a really good house cleaner or car mechanic or babysitter. You know, like, hey, I've got this really good. I take my car to him all the time. He's great. He'll fix anything. Yeah, but he won't come to you because he doesn't like you. He only lives with my people. Most people wouldn't leave the people of Haleth. I mean, this was where they were comfortable. Which makes me wonder why that's the case. Why are they only comfortable with the folk of Haleth?

[Don Marshall]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Though few would ever leave the land. I mean, it may just be that they're afraid or maybe they're possibly.

[Don Marshall]

I mean, there's definitely an element of fear in it. And I think there's something sort of, especially with Tolkien, there's sort of an honor in fighting for your homeland or keeping your own homeland safe. Rohan is fighting for Rohan. Gondor is fighting for Gondor. You know, they all sort of come together and fight together after a certain point. Sure. But there's, you know, something to be said about being able to. To keep your own sort of borders safe and enclosed, I guess, when you're trying to, you know, almost not necessarily rebuild a population, but to strengthen yourselves from within, given your dwindling population.

[Alan Sisto]

Right. To keep it, to maintain it.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because that's the challenge.

[Alan Sisto]

That is the challenge. I wonder if there's also an element of previous rejection by the other houses. Like, before, they were known to be good, you know, they were unlovely in looks. Maybe the houses of Beor and Hador didn't take the time to get to know them. You know, that only the people of Haleth proved to be like, yeah.

[Don Marshall]

And Tolkien explains in a footnote here that a few lived in the household of Horin of the house of Hador, for he had dwelt among the folk of Haleth in his youth and. And had kinship with their Lord. So, like we pointed out at the beginning, his mother was the people of Haleth and related to their lord at the time, Halmir.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Now, interestingly, Christopher points out something in the footnote, the professor's intention was ultimately to Transform Sador, the old serving man in Hurin's house in Dor Lomin into a Druig. Now that I find interesting. Right. So he's the guy who is in the story is published, is the one who hurt himself and has a lame leg now. And he sort of becomes this mentor to young Turin. Really wonderful character, gives him a ton of wisdom. Really love his dialogue in those early chapters. They were going to transform him into one of the Druedyne.

[Don Marshall]

I would have loved to have seen that. I think that makes it for a much more interesting story. I think just because of the cultural differences.

[Alan Sisto]

I agree. I think it would have been an interesting thing. You wonder what that would have looked like. But I like the concept for sure.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. We get a glimpse of that sort of special skill that made them of great service and greatly desired. They were unbelievable trackers and they even trained men to be trackers as well, which is incredibly. I like that.

[Alan Sisto]

That really is. I mean of course men were still at a natural disadvantage because they. They didn't have the same sense perception. Right. Their eyes were not as good as those of the Druidine. And more than that, I don't know about you, Don. I am unable to track by scent. Maybe, maybe if I'm driving down the road and there's an In n out burger I can. I can smell that the burgers are cooking and I can track that. That's pretty obvious. Yeah. I'm not gonna be able to track an Orc.

[Don Marshall]

Are there burgers in Middle Earth? I don't think Tolkien ever.

[Alan Sisto]

Probably not. I can, I can certainly track a good barbecue though. Oh, like smoked brisket, smoked racks of ribs. I'll be able to track that down.

[Don Marshall]

Allan and I are going to take a quick break while we get to barbecue. Right now. We'll be right back. No. So back to that whole tracking idea. It was so effective in their tracking they were that they could smell an orc further away than a man could see that same orc, which is just.

[Alan Sisto]

Wow, that's a long way.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, it is a long way, yeah. They were also described as incredible naturalists, knowing just about as much as the elves about plants and trees and all things that grow. Though notably they were not taught by the elves.

[Alan Sisto]

So they learned they were self taught. Yeah, yeah.

[Don Marshall]

Self taught humans in that way. Pretty cool. When they did move, they quickly gathered the knowledge of their new surroundings providing a names for any new plants and rapidly discerning which plants were edible versus poisonous.

[Alan Sisto]

I really find that interesting. I Mean, I know when. When I move, I have to quickly gather the knowledge of where the local grocery store is and gas station and, you know, get a new doctor. That's a lot easier than identifying all the plants and figuring out which ones I can eat, which ones will kill me. So, speaking of poisons, by the way, Tolkien adds in the footnote here, the Druidyne actually had a really strong and clear ethic about the use of poison. Quote, they had a law against the use of all poisons for the hurt of any living creatures, even those who had done them injury, save only orcs whose poison darts they countered with others more deadly. So they only used those poisons in battle against the orcs. Even if a creature had attacked them or even if another human or dwarf or something had attacked them, they would not use a poisoned weapon in battle against them. Really clear, strong ethics about the limits of war. Sort of like their own little Geneva Convention.

[Don Marshall]

I was just about to say yes. It's like they've had their own little gathering to say, let's do this and not do that. Yeah, fascinating.

[Alan Sisto]

It really is. And it's not something that we see a lot of discussion in the other houses of men. There's no. I mean, they don't have poison. Right. But the. Well, one does. Aol, but, you know, we don't. We don't get a lot of discussion of sort of like, the rules of war. I think a lot of that's assumed. You know, I think. I think Tolkien assumes we'll know stuff.

[Don Marshall]

Honor and chivalry and all of that.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. I mean, like, the mouth of Sauron coming out and. And being safe in his embassy. Right. Because he's not you. They couldn't, like, movie Aragorn in the extended edition cutting his head off. Never would have happened. Right. In a million years. That's just absolutely a hard no. So I think there are things that Tolkien assumes, but this is a really interesting, like, very clear, explicit moment. They will not use poison against anybody. Oh, but they will definitely use them against Orcs.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And Christopher actually adds a reminder about Elfhelm telling Merry, quote, let us be thankful that they are not hunting us, for they use poisoned arrows, it is said, and they are woodcrafty beyond compare. So wrong on the first part there, but right on the second. Unless you're an Orc, of course.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that's true. Actually. The poisoned arrows. Shoot that poison arrow through my heart. Never thought I would be singing ABC in, like, consecutive chapters, but we've got poison arrows showing up, so they've got to be all right. The Rohirrim were not the only ones to think this, as we'll see later in the chapter, when looking at the Druidain in the Second Age, the native inhabitants of Enedwaith, who flee the deforestation of the Numenoreans, they didn't go down to the promontory into the south because of the Pukalmen, who were a secret and fell people, tireless and silent hunters using poisoned darts. But of course they don't, unless you're an orc. So in the footnote, and we'll visit that again later, because it's mentioned in the next half of the chapter as well in the footnote, Christopher throws in a bonus about how they lived among the folk of Haleth, unrelated to their skills as trackers. And it's really just the best place to fit this, I guess. Otherwise, where else was he going to put this? He tells us first that living among the folk of Haleth, who were a woodland people, the Druedine were content to live in tents or shelters lightly built around the trunks of large trees, for they were a hardy race.

[Don Marshall]

Earlier, though, when they weren't living with Haladin, according to their own tales, they had used caves in the mountains, but mainly as storehouses only occupied as dwellings and sleeping places in severe weather. And they still had this type of refuge in Beleriand. They would go to these places in the coldest parts of winter. But here we read that quote, these places were guarded, and not even their closest friends among the Folk of Haleth were welcome there. So they've still got their own.

[Alan Sisto]

Everybody's got secrets, man. Yeah, yeah. It's. They're going to keep. And I get that. You know, they're just like, this is our space. Sorry.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah. No, this is not. Yeah, they're not welcome. It's. It's a. It's a way to. To keep their own safe for a. For a time.

[Alan Sisto]

Their own independence. And, you know, if the folk of Halleth were ever to turn on them for some reason, you know, it's. It's a final safety option, you know, but you're not going to tell everybody the code or even where the room is located. Right.

[Don Marshall]

You don't. You don't tell anybody the. The code to the alarm on your house or to open your garage door. No, this is.

[Alan Sisto]

Because then it's not a safe room anymore. Yeah. All right. Well, back on the language front, we learned that the Druedyne didn't have any written language until after meeting with the elves. Well, the thing is, that's the exact same as the other houses of Men. So it's not out of the ordinary. It's not an indication of intellect or ability.

[Don Marshall]

But while the Atani learned the runes and scripts of the elves, the Druedyne didn't. They simply didn't find a need for a written language. In fact, the closest thing they got to written communication was signs for trails and warnings. They had the tools, that is flint to scrape and cut, but they never used them to create a written language.

[Alan Sisto]

And it's interesting, you know, he talks about the flints to, to do things with as tools. They were stone tools. But men had access to metals even before they arrived in Beleriand. But the explanation here is that, look, metal was rare and expensive to work with, so they worked with stone. The footnote adds that the Atani had access to metals and smithing via their contact with the dwarves. Which makes sense. How else would they have gotten access to that, that sort of material? And the Dwarves, of course, you know, trading all the time that, that, that's how it works. But not with the Druidyne. They didn't particularly care about metals. They worked with the stone tools. All new drinks are now at McDonald's with refreshers like the Strawberry Watermelon Refresher and the Mango Pineapple Refresher with popping Boba. To crafted sodas like the Sprite Berry Blast with berry flavors and cold foam. Who knew ice cold drinks could be so fire? Try them all now at McDonald's. Refreshers contain caffeine.

[Don Marshall]

Copyright 2026 the Coca Cola Company Sprite

[Alan Sisto]

is a registered trademark of the Coca Cola Company.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Ready to soundtrack your summer with Red Bull Summer All Day Play. You choose a playlist that fits your summer vibe the best. Are you a festival fanatic, a deep end dj, a road dog or a trail mixer? Just add a song to your chosen playlist and put your summer on track. All Day play. Red Bull gives you wings. Visit RedBull.com BrightSummerAhead to learn more. See you this summer. This episode is brought to you by Prime. What if you had one more chance with the one that got away?

[Alan Sisto]

Sam, you Came Home.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Based on the best selling novel from Carly Fortune. Every Year after follows childhood friends Sam and Percy as they reunite in the dreamy, nostalgic lakeside town of Berry's Bay. Love can be hard to find. So if you're lucky enough to find that person, never let go a second chance at first love. Every year after streaming June 10th only on Prime.

[Don Marshall]

We told you about the amazing PPP community after our earlier break. If you're a part of that community and want to enjoy something even more special, come join the Fellowship of the Podcast on Patreon. You get to be in the best discord community around, one that includes host hangouts and even live episode recordings.

[Alan Sisto]

And your support there is what enables me to work full time doing all of these shows. The PPP Today's Tolkien Times, the Rings of Power, wrap up when the Amazon show comes back out, and my streaming show the PPP plays. When you join the Patreon, you can also get episode postscripts ad free episodes, free merch and more.

[Don Marshall]

And you can join our Questions after Nightfall episode or even appear as a guest in the north wing. Go to patreon.com prancingponypod to show your support and join the Fellowship of the Podcast.

[Alan Sisto]

And don't forget to rate and review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And please recommend us to your friends, something you can do now directly in Spotify just by sharing the show. All right, Don, take us a little further into this story.

[Don Marshall]

Will do, Alan. But with sharper and stronger tools they delighted in carving figures of men and beasts, whether toys and ornaments, or large images, to which the most skilled among them could give vivid semblance of life. Sometimes these images were strange and fantastic, or even fearful. Among the grim jests to which they would put their skills was the making of orc figures, which they set at the borders of the land, shaped as if fleeing from it, shrieking in terror. They made also images of themselves, and placed them at the entrances to tracks, or at turnings of woodland paths. These they called watchstones, of which the most notable were set near the crossings of Taeglin, each representing a Druedon larger than the life, squatting heavily upon a dead orc. These figures served not merely as insults to their enemies, for the orcs feared them, and believed them to be filled with malice of the Ogor Hai, for so they named the Druedyne, and able to hold communication with them, therefore they seldom dared to touch them, or to try to destroy them, and unless in great numbers would turn back at a watchstone and go no further. But among the powers of this strange people, perhaps most to be remarked, was their capacity of utter silence and stillness, which they could at times endure for many days on end, sitting with their legs crossed, their hands upon their knees or in their lap, and their eyes closed, or looking at the ground.

[Alan Sisto]

That's an interesting skill we'll get to that. So I was thinking stupid human tricks, but that works either way. We did skip a bit in this reading as we have to skip something, but let's at least go over it. As the metal tools became more, more common. So this would be after connecting with the elves and beginning trade with the Dwarves in the Blue Mountains. Well, it turns out the Druedyne have a real talent for carving.

[Don Marshall]

That's right. They'd already understood color and pigment mostly as a result of their knowledge of, of local plants. So they'd already developed artistry pictures on wood or on flat stone. So they'd even done basic sculptures with wood and painted faces.

[Alan Sisto]

By the way, I love this sort of detail. I mean, this is, this is wild stuff. Tolkien is talking about the development of their art as a culture and how this contrasts with the choice that we talked about in the last section about them not having a written language. Yeah, such a really interesting thing. And it's another one of these. Like I didn't need to go into all this detail, the professor says, but I did because I'm trying to give you a world that feels real at every level. And this has that consistency of reality.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, and it does. I mean, he's clearly put a lot of time and effort into thinking about what would go into it. And you know, we, we pick up the text at a point where they now have access to these kinds of things like metals that create better tools and they can take those skills almost to the next level.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, they start creating figures of, of people and animals. And sometimes they're just small, you know, like something you'd put on a bookshelf or something. Other times they were large. And the best of their artists could make these sculptures look like they were practically alive. I mean, you'd be, you'd look at this thing and you wouldn't see it as, you know, an image. You would see it almost as real. Like, whoa, wait a minute.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, I don't think I could see Rohan, the people of Rohan making a life sized Orc sculptures and putting them on their border and running away so

[Alan Sisto]

that the Orcs scream for their lives. I love that. A statue of a running Orc leaving your territory to tell the real orcs that are coming, don't bother.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, almost has like a Medusa like effect. Almost.

[Alan Sisto]

Scarecrows.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, exactly. They even. And now we're in familiar territory. They created images of themselves either at entrances to or turns on the paths in the forest known as wood watch stones.

[Alan Sisto]

Aha. That is Indeed familiar. Now, we learned that the most important of these watch stones were placed near the crossings of Taglin. Now, that is where Turin slew Glaurung. These sculptures were actually larger than life. Druidyne squatting on sculpted dead Orcs. Now, this wasn't just to insult the Orcs, although it absolutely did that. Bonus, I suppose. But they actually function like scarecrows, right? To scare the Orcs.

[Don Marshall]

I mean, I think that's terrifying. If I'm seeing, like, a human running in fear in the middle of the forest on a path, I'm going the opposite way for sure.

[Alan Sisto]

And if I happen to go past him and I see a monstrous creature squatting on the body of a dead person, I'm definitely going to turn around.

[Don Marshall]

Exactly, exactly. And it's so great, too, because it works. You know, the Orcs believe that the sculptures were, as Tolkien says, quote, filled with the malice of the Orochi, the name they called them, and that somehow they were able to communicate with the

[Alan Sisto]

Druidain, the Oghor High, and, of course, High, for those of you who are trying to word nerd your way through this. That just means people. So, like the Uruk Hai, the Olog High, which is the Orc's name for the trolls, and then the Oghor High, which is their name for the Druidyne. No, the orcs steered clear. Right. They didn't even dare to touch these watch stones or try to destroy them. And thus the Watchstones served their purpose.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, but while they are good at carving statues, they are rather good statues themselves. The text says they had the capacity for utter silence and stillness for days.

[Alan Sisto]

I can't sit still for five minutes, man.

[Don Marshall]

Same here.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, I can be quiet for hours. I know that stuns everybody listening. I could actually consciously be silent for hours, but I couldn't be still. I mean, there's just no way.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, no, that's. That's a whole other level of. Of concentration and focus. There's. There's almost a magical quality to it. I don't know if that's what Tolkien's implying here, but it feels almost, given

[Alan Sisto]

how many other powers they have. Yeah, I think there's some. Something.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Don Marshall]

We don't get a lot of detail about it, but it feels almost Fay adjacent to that.

[Alan Sisto]

Fay adjacent's a good way to put it. Yeah. I have to say, though, the idea of sitting still, legs crossed, eyes closed, or looking down for days, that sounds miserable.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And if I did have to do it, I'm sorry, Legs crossed for more than about five minutes. I'm never getting up. I'm not going to be able to feel my legs. I'm not going to be able to stand up.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, I'm just gonna have to fall over a little bit, do some rolling around, get some stretches in before my

[Alan Sisto]

legs can get some blood flow back into my legs. Now, this is an incredible skill. It's really interesting.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, yeah. But that leads us to the first of two stories. The more well known one is next week, but let's. Alan, why don't we close out this week with the first one? Would you do us the honor? All right, reading this final portion?

[Alan Sisto]

I will. Concerning this. A tale was related among the folk of Haleth on a time. One of the most skilled in stone carving among the droogs made an image of his father who had died and he set it up by a pathway near to their dwelling. Then he sat down beside it and passed into a deep silence of recollection. It chanced that not long after a forester came by on a journey to a distant village. And seeing two droogs, he bowed and wished them good day. But he received no answer. And he stood for some time in surprise looking closely at them. Then he went on his way, saying to himself Great skill have they in stonework but I have never seen any more lifelike. Three days later he returned and being very weary, he sat down and propped his back against one of the figures. His cloak he cast about its shoulders to dry for it had been raining but the sun was now shining hot. There he fell asleep but after a while he was wakened by a voice from the figure behind him. I hope you are rested, it said but if you wish for more sleep, I beg you to move to the other one. He will never need to stretch his legs again. And I find your cloak too hot in the sun. It is said that the Druedain would often sit thus in times of grief or loss but sometimes for pleasure in thought or in the making of plans. But they could also use this stillness when on guard. And then they would sit or stand hidden in shadow. And though their eyes might seem closed or staring with a blank gaze nothing passed or came near that was not marked and remembered. So intense was their unseen vigilance that it could be felt as a hostile menace by intruders who retreated in fear before any warning was given. But if any evil thing passed on then they would utter as a signal a shrill whistle painful to endure close at hand and heard far off the service of the Druedyne. As guards was much esteemed by the folk of Haleth in times of peril. And if such guards were not to be had they would have figures carved in their likeness to set near their houses believing that, being made by the Druedyne themselves for the purpose they would hold some of the menace of the living men. Indeed, though they held the Druedine in love and trust many of the folk of Haleth believed that they possessed uncanny and magical powers. And among their tales of marvel, there were several that told of such things.

[Don Marshall]

I love that story. Especially the part about the one Drew Atyne just sitting there. It's like, please move.

[Alan Sisto]

Move to the other one. He's just a sculpture. I would like to stand up and stretch my legs.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, exactly. This is a story that circulated among the people of Haleth about the ability of the Droogs. It started with a skilled stone carver who made the statue of his recently deceased father. He set it on a path near his home as a watchstone. He sits by it to remember it but recall their ability to be perfectly still.

[Alan Sisto]

Fascinating. So he's using this as a time of sort of, you know, he's thinking about his father. He's remembering their lives together. He. He's, you know, this is, in a way, a time of grief and of thought and of recollection, as the text says. So as he's doing this, a man. So not one of the Druidyne but one of the folk of Haleth comes by on his way to another village. He sees these two Druidine. Oh, good day to you, sirs. You know. But he doesn't get a response from either of them. And he's like, I suppose I'm looking at a pair of statues. Very lifelike. Farewell. And he's on his way back three days later. Oh, I see the statues again. I'm going to sit down with my back up against one of these statues. Even throws his cloak over the shoulders of the statue to dry because he'd been caught in the rain. And now the sun's out. So it's just. It's brilliant setup.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah. And then, of course, he falls asleep. And he is wakened up by the sound of the statue he had leaned against which is never something you want to hear. If you would like to keep sleeping, sir, please try the real statue. Your cloak is too warm on me.

[Alan Sisto]

I love this. It's a comical story, right? The moment of sheer terror from this guy must have felt for at least a heartbeat. Would have been something else. I tell you what, I Couldn't help but think of other statues that had this menace. I'm thinking at the gates of the Tower of Cirith Ungol, the ones where Sam has to hold up the vial of Galadriel to get by. Statues with real menace.

[Don Marshall]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Different than this.

[Don Marshall]

Yes, very different. But it. It. Statues, I think, have a very significant place in Tolkien's. Tolkien's Legendarium, regardless of who's making them. You know, you look at things like the Argonaut, you look at these statues, you look at the statues that are there on.

[Alan Sisto]

I didn't even thought about the Argonaut, but you're absolutely right.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

This is interesting.

[Don Marshall]

It's just another sort of signifier of. Of a kind of culture and sort of what. How you relate those statues to the culture is sort of an emblematic of what the culture is going to be like.

[Alan Sisto]

Very interesting stuff. Yeah, yeah.

[Don Marshall]

So one of the points of the story, though, is what we read in the next bit of the narrative, that they would be sitting silent for days during various times.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, times like this, like times of grief and loss, but also sometimes just to sit and make plans. I mean, I know I don't know about you, but, Don, every Sunday evening, I look at my calendar, I look at the things I have to accomplish, and I create my to do list for the week. Could I do that by sitting silently? Probably not. This is pretty impressive stuff, right? Making plans, thinking through things, and doing it without moving at all for days. But let's think of another use for this sort of skill. Like, okay, yeah, it's great if you're sitting there and you're thinking through your plans for the next six months. But there's also a really nice advantage in the fact that this makes a great guard duty. Nobody wants to sit around still for hours on end, but hey, these people, do they actually like this?

[Don Marshall]

Yeah. Yeah. And if it's good for them, it's helpful to keep their people safe.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Don Marshall]

You know, we keep coming back to the fact that they don't have a lot of. Of people's left. Their. Their population, no self is running very thin. And, yeah, they'd find a shadowy spot, sit or stand perfectly still for days, but even if their eyes were almost closed, they saw and remembered everything.

[Alan Sisto]

That's wild. What's also wild is this idea that if you were one of the bad guys, you would know you were being watched. The text says it was so intense that it felt as a hostile menace by the enemies. And again, that makes me think of those statues The Watchers.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean this is. Sure the good and bad sides are flipped, but yeah, these are like the good guy versions of the Watchers. Ooh.

[Don Marshall]

Interesting that no other human groups come to create something like this. Like the Argonaut is not meant to strike fear in the hearts of the Orcs. The Rohirrim don't really have statues anywhere that sort of signify their, their place in the world.

[Alan Sisto]

But it's, it's here in the tapestries. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I do think the Argonath might. I think, I think they were set as sort of a warning. Like this is Gondor. Don't come here unless you're a friend of Gondor. But it wasn't like you said, intended to instill fear. It was more like. It's more welcome to Gondor. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. It's like the billboard that says, you know, welcome to California or something like that, you know.

[Don Marshall]

Exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Don Marshall]

Most probably would retreat, but if you went.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Don Marshall]

The guard would let out this high pitched whistle as a warning. So it's terrifying as soon as you start.

[Alan Sisto]

Yep. Like a really annoying car alarm. It's an advanced home alarm system really. I mean, 24 hour monitoring by ADT that's, you know, Arta Druidyne something or other. You can imagine that Druidine guards were in high demand. I mean, when times were dangerous and all the guards were busy, they were so in demand that the holiday would get carvings instead. Like if I can't have. Now I'm comparing it to real life alarms. If I can't afford an actual alarm, I'm going to get a sign that says I have an alarm. You know, I can't afford an actual Druidine guard, but I'm going to get a statue. And that's going to work, right?

[Don Marshall]

Hey, hey, you know, if, if your home alarm system makes people feel as though they are staring at a hostile menace, I feel like the job is done already.

[Alan Sisto]

That, that would work. I'd be okay with that. Yeah. I mean, sure. I'd rather have a real Druidyne.

[Don Marshall]

Oh, sure, sure.

[Alan Sisto]

I don't know though. That's shrill whistle in the middle of the night. I mean, that's gonna be tough.

[Don Marshall]

That's gonna be tough.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. It's like somebody's car alarm keeps going off, you know, in the middle of the night and you're like turn off your car alarm.

[Don Marshall]

Just.

[Alan Sisto]

Nobody's stealing your car, man.

[Don Marshall]

Anyway, from past experience that, that fell.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. There's a car down the street that from where I live that I just, I hear its alarm at least once or twice a week and it's like, please just disable the darn thing. You're in a safe neighborhood, nobody's stealing your car. And when it goes off, it goes off for like two or three minutes at a time before you wake up and figure it out and turn off your car alarm. And of course, now every time it goes off, I'm always afraid, oh, is that, is that my car? Am I the one who's causing other people to lose their sleep? And it's never.

[Don Marshall]

You never want to be that person. Never know.

[Alan Sisto]

He really does. And no, it just means I need a real Druidon. Because they would know.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And they wouldn't do the shrill whistle unless there was actually an alarm, like an orc coming in the middle of the night. They'd be okay if it was an Amazon truck dropping something off at 4:30 in the morning.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

They wouldn't do the shrill whistle.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Anyway,

[Don Marshall]

keep in mind that they too believed a little bit like the orcs, that the statues held that menace that we were talking about, but one that would basically protect them. So, yeah, again, like, like that ADT thing where you're. You're basically saying, all right, well, if it works for them, why can't it work for us? And there you go.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, just don't sign that contract. You're bound to them forever in eternity, you know, so.

[Don Marshall]

Exactly, exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

Good luck getting out of that. I think that this is interesting that there's a similarity of belief here. Both the Haladin and the orcs believe these statues to have magical powers, to be imbued with some sort of something. Something supernatural, the belief itself carries a power, doesn't it? I mean, even if the statues are totally inert and there is no magic, like, let's assume for the sake of this question that there really are just lifelike statues. The belief that they have that power is enough to keep the orcs away and enough to give the holiday in a sense of security, isn't it?

[Don Marshall]

It is, but I think the reason they have that belief is because of what the Druidain are capable of. You have to be.

[Alan Sisto]

That's the thing. I mean, if the. Yeah, exactly. If the Druidyne themselves were not capable of sitting days on end and emitting shrill whistles and, you know, emanating this hostile menace, then the statues themselves would be powerless.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah. Because it's almost as if, you know, if you can't tell the difference between the statue and the person who's the Druidyne. It's almost a question of, all right, what am I looking at? Is it that statue? Yeah. Or is it a person?

[Alan Sisto]

And am I willing to take that risk?

[Don Marshall]

Exactly. Do I take that chance? Because if I walk past them and they decide I am a threat, I am not friendly. Well, then all of a sudden we've got a huge problem.

[Alan Sisto]

And that would feel like a hostile menace, even just from internally. Like, if you're an orc and you have felt the hostile menace from the actual druidyne Guard seeing that stone version of a druidyne guard is going to make you feel that hostile menace even. Even if the stone is inert. And I'm not so sure, as we'll find out next week, that the stones are inert. Yeah, a lot of spoilers, I guess.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, we'll take a look at that next week. About, you know, moving statues and the terrifying things that come along with that belief.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. So this whole, this whole thing. Right. Leads to the observation that the holiday believe the Droogs had, quote, uncanny and magical powers. And honestly, who can blame them, right? I mean, these, these statues seem supernatural in a few ways but so do the beings themselves. I mean, the, the Droogs, they can keep perfectly still for days on end. Who can do that, Man. Who can stand still for days on end?

[Don Marshall]

A really talented yoga practitioner. I don't know. I think the answer is no.

[Alan Sisto]

Somebody's still got to get. I was gonna say no one, because you're still gonna have to. Even if you don't eat, you still have to drink.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Or you'll die. You're going to breathe and make movements your body isn't going to. You couldn't stay awake for 72 hours and sit perfectly still. Maybe, like you said, an advanced yoga practitioner could somehow get themselves in a position. They could fall asleep without falling over. But this is pretty amazing because they also, let's not forget, they have black eyes that glow red when they're angry.

[Don Marshall]

Terrifying.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. They can make sculptures that actually keep the orcs away that seem like they are a lot more than just a scarecrow, as we'll see next week, as we've hinted at.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah. Also terrifying. You know, they. They just seem to. Yeah. And, and, you know, it's not that the druidyne are terrifying themselves. It is that they have been sort of put in a situation where their, their life and their lifestyle has forced them almost to live like this.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. That's fair. Yeah. Certainly the poison arrows that's another thing. I mean, they're feared for. You could certainly make the argument that their tracking ability isn't magical powers. That's just enhanced natural senses. Right. But when you combine it with those other abilities. Yeah. You can see. I mean, maybe there's a part of this that's the whole, you know, anything that cannot be explained is simply matter magic. There might be a little bit to that from the Haladin's perspective, but in Tolkien's world, when you think somebody's got some magical powers, they probably have some magical powers. It's just that magic doesn't work the way. It's not just recitation of spells and you know.

[Don Marshall]

Right. It's not Harry Potter or anything. It's like we said, it's Fae adjacent. You're.

[Alan Sisto]

You're Fae adjacent.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah. You're creating these mythical beings that have these powers that sometimes work and sometimes can create these wonderful or supernatural situations that you would never typically find yourself in. But because you are in or around these supernatural things, it happens.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. And we'll certainly talk about one of those in next week's episode like we. We've already hinted at. So it is said that Barliman would often sit thus in times of grief or loss of mail, because he loses the mail all the time. Don, what does Barloman have in his bag for us today, though? He could never sit still for that long.

[Don Marshall]

Of course not. So, Alan, as you know, I love the idea of speculation, especially within Middle Earth.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, you do.

[Don Marshall]

And we talked a little bit earlier in this episode about the Druidyne being in Numenor, taking the boats over with the Numenoreans to the island. But they left and they left after a while and they left slowly in ones and twos. The question is what happens if they stay? And what changes in Numenorean culture do the Druidyne essentially just assimilate into the Numenorean culture? Or are there changes that these somewhat more supernatural Fae adjacent people? Because keep in mind the Numenoreans are themselves a little bit more. More larger than life and almost Fay adjacent themselves in. In that they are taller and stronger

[Alan Sisto]

and faster, longer lived and.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah, exactly. We, we have almost these two, you know, competing groups of people on these island, on this island that is, that are working together. So in your own opinion, what does Numenor look like if they stay?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, their numbers would increase because they're safe, but I don't know that they'd have much of an influence, the Numenoreans, by The time you get to even Aldarian, there's a sense of superiority. And that develops more and more over the course of the generations and centuries. We can see it in the way they interact with the native inhabitants of Middle Earth and how they drive off the people who live in Enedwaith and they just deforest the region. I'm thinking even of the story of Tal Omar where even the good guys, right, because in Tal Omar, they encounter some Numenoreans that come ashore and they're clearly the faithful who, you know, think that this guy's an elf and they have good things to say. Like, wow, you speak Sindarin. How's this come about? They're good guys. They're not there to kill people. They're not there to take, you know, captives back and sacrifice them in the temple. These are good guys. But even then they say your people are going to have to either leave or be killed. Right. No matter. Even the best of Numenoreans are seeing Middle Earth as a place to expand and a people to subjugate. So given that, I don't think the Druidyne's efforts, if they made any efforts, would bear any fruit at all. And I hate to say this, but if they're still there when Sauron arrives, they're the first. They're the first ones he sacrifices in the temple. They're the first ones. The first victims. He would know that he's not gonna be able to trick them because there's

[Don Marshall]

no way of tricking them if they've got that kind of insight, that foresight and that knowledge. Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Sauron may have Ar Pharazon tricked Ar Pharazon and the king's men are all fooled by Sauron. The faithful are not. And that's why they end up being sacrificed. Many of them are killed, you know, taken captive and killed. But I think the Druidain are the first against the wall, so to speak. If that's the case, do you think

[Don Marshall]

the Druedyne are able to somehow convince our Farazan in any point?

[Alan Sisto]

No, no, Nobody can convince our Farazan. He is absolutely. I mean, the only reason Sauron is able to convince him is because Sauron is telling him how right he is. Right. I mean, Sauron knows how to. How to get our Pharazon to do what he wants. By manipulating him. By telling him. You're right. Great kings take what is their due. You are the mightiest who's ever been. You should go to Valinor and take this gift. It belongs to you.

[Don Marshall]

The Druedain are not doing that.

[Alan Sisto]

The Druidain are not going to play his game. And so they're not going to be able to persuade anybody other than the faithful. I think what would happen, I guess, realistically, is they would end up joining the houses of the faithful as, like, you know, servants in their homes or as people living amongst the faithful. So you'd have a lot of them in Andunier, you'd have a lot of them at that point, as the faithful leave, I think that's when the Druidain would leave.

[Don Marshall]

I'm just picturing Elendil with a bunch of Druedyne on his boat as he sails with the other eight ships to Middle Earth.

[Alan Sisto]

It would be interesting. Like, you kind of wonder if that had happened, right. If the Druedyne had survived Sauron and had instead traveled with the faithful to the establishment of Gondor and Arnor at the fall of Numenor, that might have been an even, like, following that threat. Could be even more interesting. Like, what would have happened had they been incorporated in Gondor and Arnor the way they were incorporated with the Haladin? That might be a good question for our postscript.

[Don Marshall]

Much more prominent figures, I think, in Middle Earth culture. Sure. Interesting.

[Alan Sisto]

I think it would probably have an impact on. On medicine, on, you know, because of what they know about plants and things like that. Combine that with what the Numenoreans already know about, things like Athelas.

[Don Marshall]

Yeah. And home security. Definitely put a bunch of statues outside of Tirith and us Gilioth, and. Yeah, you know, you'll be fine.

[Alan Sisto]

Interesting. I mean that. I want to explore that more in our postscript for sure.

[Don Marshall]

Absolutely.

[Alan Sisto]

All right, folks, thank you for joining us for another episode of the Prancing Pony podcast. But please come back again next week when we read the story of the Faithful Stone and learn more about what happened to the Druidyne in the second and third ages.

[Don Marshall]

Cannot wait for that one. Meantime, Alan and I want to thank the members of Team PPP editor Jordan Rannells Barleyman, Becca Davis, social media manager Casey Hilsey Event and Patreon community coordinator Katie McKenna, graphic artist Megan Collins, video editor Yonatan Lazens, and website guru Phil Dean.

[Alan Sisto]

Please take a minute to check out the prancingponypodcast.com that's where you'll find show notes, outtakes, Prancing Pony ponderings, and our fully revamped PPP merch store, where you can get all sorts of cool PPP Merch featuring the incredible chapter art that Megan's been doing for us for nearly four seasons now.

[Don Marshall]

We are all about the books here at the Prancing Pony Podcast, so be sure to also visit our library page. We try to make sure that any book we've mentioned on the show is linked there for you to purchase. We do get a small amount of compensation when you make that purchase and we do thank you for that indeed.

[Alan Sisto]

And we also want to thank our patrons at the KIR Dance contribution tier here. I'll start with Demay in Alaska, Chad in Texas, Joseph in Michigan, Kathy from North Carolina, Brian in the uk, Jerry from Washington, Irwin from the Netherlands, Ben in Minnesota, Anthony in Texas, Zaksu in Illinois, Joshua in Massachusetts, Lucy in Texas, Erica in Texas, James in Massachusetts, Ann in Kentucky and Sean in New Jersey.

[Don Marshall]

There's also Mason in California, Maureen from Massachusetts, Massachusetts, Olivia in London, Robert in Arizona, Nick in Wisconsin, Lewis in South Carolina, Thomas in Germany, Craig in California, Kevin in Massachusetts, Joe in Maryland, D Scott in California, Jeffrey in Michigan, Paul in Colorado, David from Connecticut and Teresa from Texas. Thank you all so very much for your support indeed.

[Alan Sisto]

Thank you.

[Don Marshall]

Make sure you don't miss any episodes of the Prancing Pony Podcast. Subscribe now through Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or your favorite podcast app.

[Alan Sisto]

And one last thing. As always, don't forget to send your thoughts, comments and most of all, your full size Druidyne watchstones to Barnuman at the prancingpony podcast.com just not COD please.

[Don Marshall]

Barleyman does have a lot of mail to get through though, so we'll try to get to yours just as soon as we are able.

[Alan Sisto]

As well. As always though, this has been far too short a time to spend among such excellent and admirable listeners. But until next time, I have been

[Don Marshall]

a picture of Dorian Gray with a very old mirror in my attic. Don Marshall and I am joined by the man of the West, Alan Sesto. There's a new way to sweetgreen Meat Wraps handheld, hearty and made for life on the move. With bold, chef crafted flavors, fresh ingredients and over 40 grams of protein, they're built to satisfy without slowing you down. Try wraps today in the app [e-mail] available at all participating locations.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Your next chapter in healthcare starts at Carrington College's School of Nursing in Portland. Join us for our open house on Tuesday, January 13th from 4 to 7pm you'll tour Explore our campus, see live demos, meet instructors and learn about our Associate Degree in Nursing program that prepares you to become a registered nurse, Take the first step toward your nursing career. Save your spot now at Carrington. Edu Events. For information on program outcomes, visit carrington. Edu Sci.