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- [00:00]
Alan
Summer always changes the way I dress. I find myself gravitating towards lighter, more breathable fabrics. But I still want to feel put together. That's one of the reasons I keep coming back to the quince pieces in my wardrobe and why I've added a few more. Their high quality essentials look and feel incredible. Soft, organic cotton, super breathable linen and more. Now, as always with quints, you get that balance of an upscale look and feel without the upscale markup, like their European linen shirts that start at only $34 or their organic cotton tees for just $25. I've been wearing my linen shorts now that the weather's warm, and I'm always reaching for the assortment of cotton tees that I own. Everything you find at Quint's is priced at half, sometimes more like 80% off compared to what you'd find with similar brands. That's because they work directly with the factories and cut out the middleman. So you pay for quality materials and workmanship and not brand markup. And they've gone far beyond clothing, too. You can get bedding, cookware, luggage and more, and it's all to the same standard. Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com pony for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com pony for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com pony I sold my car in Carvana last night.
- [01:25]
Don Marshall
Well, that's cool. No, you don't understand. It went perfectly.
- [01:28]
Alan
Real offer down to the penny.
- [01:29]
Don Marshall
They're picking it up tomorrow. Nothing went wrong.
- [01:31]
Ad Host/Announcer
So what's the problem?
- [01:33]
Don Marshall
That is the problem. Nothing in my life goes as smoothie. I'm waiting for the catch.
- [01:36]
Ad Host/Announcer
Maybe there's no catch.
- [01:38]
Alan
That's exactly what a catch would want me to think. Wow.
- [01:41]
Ad Host/Announcer
You need to relax.
- [01:42]
Don Marshall
I need a knock on wood.
- [01:43]
Alan
Do we have.
- [01:43]
Don Marshall
What is this table wood?
- [01:44]
Ad Host/Announcer
I think it's laminate.
- [01:45]
Alan
Okay.
- [01:46]
Don Marshall
Yeah, that's good. That's close enough.
- [01:47]
Ad Host/Announcer
Car selling without a catch. Sell your car today on Carvana. Pickup fees may apply.
- [02:04]
Alan
Good evening, little masters, and welcome to episode 417 of the Prancing Pony podcast, where Don has brought me ill news and must leave me for a while.
- [02:13]
Don Marshall
But don't worry though. I have set up watch stones that happen to look just like me. Folks, pull up a bench in the common room and join us. I am Don Marshall, the obscure Lord of the Rings. Facts guy and I am here with the man of the west who might want to avoid looking too closely at that Watchstone, Mr. Alan Sesto.
- [02:32]
Alan
That's right. I understand, Don, that you have left it with some of your powers, but I think that means it can just tell old jokes. So anyway, folks, join us as we study one of the tales of Marvel about the Druedyne and conclude our two episode look these mysterious folk from their chapter in Unfinished Tales and conclude this season's far too short five episode run with my friend, Don Marshall.
- [02:55]
Don Marshall
It has been far too short a time, but I have always been glad to be here and look forward to hopefully coming back one day. Folks, no matter whether you came to Middle Earth through the books, the films, the TV show, or something else, each of you is welcome here in our common room. The Pranzigmody podcast continues in our 10th season of Reading and talking our way through Middle Earth with conversations, digressions, and even speculations.
- [03:21]
Alan
Not to mention a few puns and bad jokes here and there. But our purpose is to dive deep into the lore, to discuss the story, talk about our favorite characters and themes, sometimes Tolkien's inspirations, and a whole lot more.
- [03:33]
Don Marshall
And while we take the work seriously, the same, as you can probably already tell, cannot be said of ourselves. We are just a couple of friends acting like we're chatting at a pub. We're so glad you've joined us, and
- [03:45]
Alan
I'm sure you'll be glad you joined as well. But before we get to today's chapter discussion, it's time to sit down with friend of the show and if I'm being honest, a big inspiration behind the start of the show, the Tolkien professor himself, Dr. Corey Olson. Welcome, Corey. Welcome back, I should say.
- [03:59]
Dr. Corey Olsen
Oh, always glad to be here with you guys.
- [04:02]
Alan
Great. Well, this episode is going to be releasing on June 14th. In less than two weeks, I'm going to be seeing you at the enigmatic National Conference center, also known as Moria Part 2, for the 13th annual Myth Moot. Folks, if you're not going to be joining us in person, be sure to register for the online version. But I want to ask you about an even more special Moot. Kiwi Moot. It's sold out this year and, man, it sold out before I could even think about getting a ticket. Are you planning.
- [04:31]
Dr. Corey Olsen
Anybody can think about.
- [04:32]
Alan
That's the thing. So are you planning on doing it again? Tell us about this bucket list Moot. And how we can be ready for the next time.
- [04:39]
Dr. Corey Olsen
Definitely. Okay, so Kiwi Moot. So on the one hand, Kiwi moot itself. So there's the moot itself and then there's some extra experiences that we're building into it. So the moot itself is, is a rotation of our annual Osmoot meeting. So we've been doing a three day moot in Australia for the last few years and there's a really wonderful community of Tolkien fans down in Australia and New Zealand who have really come together and Osmut has been this really wonderful thing. Well, this year it's, it's been rotating around. We've done Brisbane and Sydney and Melbourne and we did Canberra last year and it's Wellington this coming year. So when that rolled around on the, you know, we were like, you know, oh, we're gonna do a mood in Wellington. Let's like do some extra stuff.
- [05:22]
Alan
So what we did, I might need to.
- [05:23]
Dr. Corey Olsen
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. I've never been, I've never been to New Zealand myself. So I'm like, okay, let's, let's do this. So what we're doing is our Osmut people in particular have been helping us to organize this. What we're doing is not a tour so much as a group vacation with really fun like minded Tolkien fans.
- [05:41]
Alan
Basically my dream come true.
- [05:44]
Dr. Corey Olsen
It's so good. It's so good. So I mean it's gonna be, it's gonna be low key. It's gonna be, you know, it's not gon fancy. So which this, which also means, by the way, it's as affordable as we can possibly make it. We can't do anything about airline prices, but it's not costing a very great deal to go on this trip. And the trip is two weeks long, so we're doing about four or five days before the moot on the north island, which includes, we're doing a dedicated like we have the whole Green Dragon for an evening, for a banquet together and on the Hobton set. And then we're after the four days traveling around doing cool stuff on the north island, we're going to the Moot in Wellington and we're going to be there for the long weekend and we have really wonderful activities for the moot. And then after the moot we're going to fly down to the south island and then we're going to tour the south island for another week and we're going to tons. And again, this is all just like driving. We're going to be driving in like 12 passenger vans together and then we're going to be getting out. We're Going to be hiking. I've already. I've already promised one of the attendees that I'd carry her up Mount Doom. And she was like, I don't if I want to hike up there. I'm like, it's okay, Dizzy. I'll carry you. So anyway, so also, I've met her, and she's very hobbit, like, so I'm confident I could carry her out. I was gonna say if I needed to. It's not a rash vow. But anyway, it's gonna be a really, really fun time.
- [07:06]
Alan
Yeah.
- [07:06]
Dr. Corey Olsen
You know, going around and doing stuff. Maggie and Ben from Signum Studios are coming. And so we're gonna be. I'm. I don't even know what we're gonna be filming, but we're gonna be filming some stuff also while we're down there and in Wellington before and afterwards, we've been talking with folks at Weta. We're really, really excited to do some stuff with Weta folks. Anyway, so this is Kiwi, but here's the thing. So I expected that this would sell out. Our New Zealand friends were very, like, humble about this. They were like, oh, I don't know. How many Americans do you really think will want to come? And I'm like, more than you think.
- [07:40]
Alan
All of them.
- [07:42]
Don Marshall
Yeah.
- [07:42]
Dr. Corey Olsen
Yeah. So we opened registration, and I expect I. I expected we would fill it. Our limit is 64 people because that. It's the Green Dragon primarily, that is setting the limit. We can't bring more than 64 people to the Green Dragon. So I figured we would sell out. I thought it would take like a month or so to sell out. We sold out in 36 hours.
- [08:03]
Alan
Oh, my goodness.
- [08:03]
Dr. Corey Olsen
Or so from when we opened it. They were holding a spot for me, but I missed it, like, before I even, like, I was. There was like a thread, you know, within our slack for when it was going to open registration, and I was traveling and I'd missed that. And by the time I came back and was like, so I couldn't even get a chance to announce it before it had closed already. Like, none of us thought it was going to close as quickly as that.
- [08:27]
Alan
So the key question then is how do I get on the special list where I get the notification before it launches next time?
- [08:34]
Dr. Corey Olsen
Well, man. Yeah, so we're already. We have a wait list. Yeah, yeah, we have a wait list. And we're looking to. We're already looking at the plans to doing it again next year because it was so popular this year. It won't be quite the Same next year because the moot itself isn't going to be in Wellington. We'll be back in Australia next year. So we'll probably just do like the moot in Australia and then after that fly over to New Zealand and do the, do the trip after that. But the trip itself, like the North Island, south island trips will be, will be the same. And yeah, with the kind of response that we've seen, I, I figure this is a thing we're going to, we're going to start doing not annually, every
- [09:09]
Alan
year for the rest of time, every other year or.
- [09:12]
Dr. Corey Olsen
Yeah, or once every three years or something, but probably next year again because of the immediate demand and all the people who didn't even get a chance to decide.
- [09:20]
Alan
I didn't even know that the tickets were on sale until they were sold out either.
- [09:24]
Dr. Corey Olsen
So it was, it was, that was a remarkable weekend.
- [09:28]
Alan
Well, I'm super happy. I cannot wait to have you back on after that has taken place and hear all about it.
- [09:34]
Dr. Corey Olsen
Oh man, it's going to be good. And yes, by next year, I mean 2028. So February of 2027 is when this is happening. The, the, the first couple weeks of February is, this is the first event. So by next year, yes, I mean probably early February of 2028 is what
- [09:49]
Alan
is what we're thinking of.
- [09:50]
Don Marshall
Corey Signum's space program continues to keep growing for maybe those of our listeners that have not taken part or who might not know what you have to offer. Can you tell us a little bit more about space?
- [10:03]
Dr. Corey Olsen
Oh, absolutely. So space is a program. It stands for Signum Portals to Adult Continuing Education. It's, it's designed to enable people to learn. We. One of the core purposes of Sigdom University from the beginning has to increase learning opportunities for folks. And we've always felt at the heart of that has always been making a connection among people. That is our classes are synchronous. So like you, you come and you have live discussion with other people and with, with a professor who's there and space enables people to study stuff that they just. If you don't have time to enter a degree program, you don't even have time to enter a full semester course. Our space classes are one month modules and you can do some protracted stuff like you know, we have some, some things so you can get into language learning courses for instance. And you know right now we're, we're teach classical, classical Chinese, Japanese, Biblical, Hebrew, Ancient Greek, Middle High German, Old Norse and Old English are all running currently in Our space program and we're starting new cohorts for other languages and stuff all the time. Oh, and by the way, like one of the really cool things that our faculty started doing in space, which was such a genius idea, and I don't know any other institution in the world who does this. And they should, you know, when you learn a language and then you stop using that language, you forget that language like a year later, right. Like, you know, and all of the work that you've done. So we have courses like these one month modules which are designed to maintain languages that you've already learned. So we have like intermediate and advanced modules where you can come with just like a reading module. So like, for instance, we have a whole cohort of people who have learned Old English, like either many of them in our Signum graduate program, some of them in space, some of them elsewhere. But you know, like, Old English is great, but if you don't use it, like it goes away, you know, you don't automatically keep it. And so we have these monthly modules where they're just reading the Old English corpus together and discussing it so that they can maintain their familiarity with the language. We have a wonderful creative writing program. So lots of people who, again, if you want to find an active community, but you know, you don't have the, the, the time or money to commit to like an MFA program or something like that. But you want some kind of structure, you want, you want that kind of a structured community and a supportive community. Our creative writing community is just the most supportive group of folks I've ever met. So anyway, there's, that's those kinds of things all up and down, all kinds of things. History, philosophy. The core of what we offer in space is like Tolkien studies has always been our core niche. And what we do at Signum is kind of grown around Tolkien studies, right? With medieval and classical and renaissance stuff, Germanic philology stuff. So many people who come to the languages through Tolkien and really want to pursue language study and get interested in the languages as Tolkien was, other fantasy and science fiction, but then sort of extended outward from their other humanities options. Lots of language learning, as I said before. Yeah, lots of things going on in space. And we have, we even have through space our tutorials program, which is where if you, if you have a project that you're working on, maybe you're writing something, maybe there's a research project you really want to do, but you want help. Like it's hard to do these things on, you know, you have some kind of passion project you would like to pursue, we can help you. You can come to Signum and say, hey, I want to do this project and we can find you a mentor who can meet with you and do and do. You know, it even varies like how intensely you do you want to meet with your mentor twice a week. You know, as you are working heavily through this project, do you just want to check in, you know, once a month or twice a month or something like that? You know, there are all kinds of ways that, that we can, that we can organize that. But yeah, just, just kind of help. So anything from. I've written this and I would like somebody to look over it and give me feedback to. I have an idea for a research project that I would like to do. Can you. It's like having a, having a thesis advisor basically, or, or a thesis director, but anybody off the street could, can come in and get one.
- [14:21]
Alan
Like, you don't have to be in
- [14:22]
Dr. Corey Olsen
our program in order to do it. So again, we are. What we're about is trying to, trying to maximize learning opportunities for people. The opportunity for them to get into, to learn stuff that they want to learn to, to dig in deeper to stuff that they love. That's the heart of what we do.
- [14:38]
Alan
Signum. I love that. Well, I understand that you are starting a new program because, you know, you're not busy enough. Corey.
- [14:45]
Dr. Corey Olsen
No.
- [14:45]
Alan
And it is called Signum Partners. That literally the name is all I know about it. So bring us up to speed on Signum Partners.
- [14:52]
Dr. Corey Olsen
Oh man, I, I am so excited about Signum Partners. This is something that has been really, really taking off over the last few weeks. Basically, what, what it boils down to is we have developed over time a lot of tools. Many of you, any of you who have signed up for Signum stuff before, like, especially in space or our events, have been to BlackBerry, which is the registration system that we have, you know, custom designed. James Tauber actually was one of the original architects of it. He and Rob Gosselin, our space director, worked on that together. James is off into other frontiers and doing other things right now, but Rob is still developing it and we've got a great team there. So we've been developing all these tools. And, and, and by tools, what I mean is like, it's a really complicated. Connecting with people on the Internet at scale is challenging to do. Right? It's. And there are a lot of organizations that would like to do things like, you know, hey, it would be fun to do like a synchronous lecture series where we could do like, Q&As with our audience with. And. And like, oh, and wouldn't it be cool if we could, like, actually sell tickets to that or something?
- [15:59]
Alan
And.
- [16:00]
Dr. Corey Olsen
And we have content and some of this content we'd like to monetize, and some of it we wouldn. Most organizations out there, whether it be scholarly organizations or fan organizations or whatever, they just, like. They just don't have the tools. You know, they're like, you know, we could find software or some sort of service that would help us do this, but we can't afford that. And organizing a set of discussions, for instance, where people can register from all over the world and you're balancing people's time zones and trying to figure out. And then getting everybody the zoom link and access to recordings and all of these things. So these things are really hard for a lot of organizations. Organizations to do. And it makes the sort of a synchronous connection with people challenging and difficult for people. So recently, as at Signum, we're like, you know what? We do it like 15 times before lunch every day. Like, this is what we do. Like, we've built an entire system that's just designed to do this. And because of this wonderful new team that we have built. And by the way, Alan, I can tell you. Do you know where I built this team? Dallas at the Prancing Pony.
- [17:08]
Alan
Moot. Well, I'm glad that we could help.
- [17:11]
Dr. Corey Olsen
100% Nakat Fatima and David Marks, right. From conversations that I had with him in Dallas at the Prancing Pony, Mood.
- [17:20]
Alan
Right on.
- [17:21]
Dr. Corey Olsen
Are now working with us and they're helping to develop our. It's fantastic.
- [17:25]
Alan
Anyway, so that's so cool.
- [17:27]
Dr. Corey Olsen
We've hugely increased our capacity for. For what we can handle, for what we can do in our system. And so we were like, do you know what? We can. Now we can make these tools available to other organizations.
- [17:40]
Alan
Yeah, you've got the tools. Why not?
- [17:41]
Dr. Corey Olsen
Yeah, we've got the tools. We can share them. So that's what we're doing. So the Signum Partners program is a. Is. Is where we at Signum are looking to work with other organizations. I've already had several initial meetings over the last few weeks, and it's so. I can't even tell you how much fun this is, because what I get to do is I get to go to organizations and. And say, okay, what are your goals and your, like, your hopes and dreams? And if you tell me your hopes and dreams, I'll tell you how Signum can help you reach Them. It's. It's so much fun. We've had. We've had a. We've had conversations with local fan groups. We've had organizations with individual people who are running like, you know, like their own sort of separate thing for which they have no resources at all, but they're looking to, you know, it's like we have some. One person who's running his own little teaching program, but he doesn't have support for that. And we're like, well, we can help you support.
- [18:40]
Alan
We can do that.
- [18:40]
Don Marshall
Right.
- [18:40]
Alan
Here's the infrastructure.
- [18:41]
Dr. Corey Olsen
Yeah, exactly. And, but also we've been talking to some, Some. Some fairly significant scholarly organizations.
- [18:50]
Don Marshall
For instance.
- [18:51]
Alan
Good.
- [18:51]
Dr. Corey Olsen
Had a lovely conversation with Owen Barfield ii.
- [18:56]
Alan
Oh, wow.
- [18:57]
Dr. Corey Olsen
Talking about working, helping out the Owen Barfield Literary Estate.
- [19:01]
Alan
Yeah.
- [19:02]
Dr. Corey Olsen
And I think there's some things that we can do with them. We're sort of working out exactly what that's going to look like. And that led to a conversation with the Owen Barfield Society. And so, like, with. We. We may be bringing in the Owen Barfield Society and the Owen Barfield Literary Stag, and we're going to see. I think there's a lot of details to be worked out, but I'm hoping, like, a great deal more Owen Barfield study could be the result of this. And the opportunity for people to connect with the. I think is really the most neglected inkling.
- [19:29]
Alan
Yeah, really.
- [19:30]
Dr. Corey Olsen
Owen Barfield. So I've been having conversations high and low all over the place, and we are really excited for the opportunity to be able just to. Just to. Just to share, just to help and support other organizations. That's what the Signum Partners program is about.
- [19:47]
Alan
It sounds like a real win. Win.
- [19:48]
Dr. Corey Olsen
Yeah, that's exactly. That's exactly it. I mean, and the, what I. What I always tell people at the organizations is I'm like, okay, we're not going to charge you for this. Like, it's free. But. And I'm going to tell you what we get out of it. What we, what we get out of it is like, what we want to do is we just want to share Signum's existence with more people. We want more people to come into contact with Signum and to know that we exist.
- [20:13]
Alan
The more people know about Signum, the more people are going to enroll in space or maybe even enroll in the degree program.
- [20:17]
Dr. Corey Olsen
I mean, like, we, we want to provide learning opportunities for as many people as possible. So, you know, by, by helping out other organizations, we will, you know, we will come into contact with their people. You know, with their members and with their audiences. And, and that's a, that's a win for us and we can enable them to do stuff that they couldn't do, you know, things that would be impossible for them, which are routine for us. And that's great. And it's just a beautiful win, win situation.
- [20:43]
Alan
That's awesome.
- [20:44]
Don Marshall
I guess I'd be remiss if I didn't ask this one. Is there any one particular storyline or any particular character that you were excited about for Rings of Power Season 3?
- [20:54]
Dr. Corey Olsen
Ah, okay. Aenarion. If I could just two characters really quick. Aenarion and Glorfindel are two things I'm really curious about.
- [21:02]
Alan
Oh yeah, yeah.
- [21:04]
Dr. Corey Olsen
Very curious about Glorfindel on the Glorfindel subject. So I'm one session away from finishing our. Because I do sometimes finish discussions on books away from finishing our discussion of the peoples of Middle Earth in my Mythgard Academy class. So we've, we. This will be session number 29 on the Peoples of Middle Earth.
- [21:22]
Alan
Don't you think that's a little quick?
- [21:24]
Dr. Corey Olsen
Yeah, well, people complain, but, you know, like, that's, that's what I do. Which means, by the way, that, like, I'm one session away from completing my full cover to cover study of the entire history of Middle Earth over the last, you know, 10 to 15 years. And what I have said several times over the last few sessions as we've been talking about the peoples of Middle Earth, is that any Tolkien people who watch the Rings of Power and say, where are they getting this? Why are they doing this? Like, just read the Peoples of Middle Earth. The Peoples of Middle Earth is demonstrably, you know, the favorite book of J.D. and Patrick. Like, J.D. and Patrick love the peoples of Middle Earth. And most everything that people complain about, you know, as far as like, stuff they're pulling in from Tolkien or funny things they're doing with Tolkien, almost all of it comes from the peoples of Middle Earth. And in the peoples of Middle Earth, we were just discussing the Glorfindel stuff and how he talks about like, how Glorfindel is like the chief hero of the war in Eriador against Sauron and stuff. So I'm, I'm kind of expecting they're going to go that way because it's in the peoples of Middle Earth and they love that. But Anarion is to me, the biggest kind of question mark. You know, there have been these rumors for the first two seasons of that out on the other side of Numenor, there is this like. Like that there's this Numenorean countercultural counterculture, like this fate, this faithful based counterculture of Numenor that Anarion has gone out to. He's, you know, when. When Anarion left home to join a cult or something, you know, and is living out on the other side of the island. I mean, that's kind of how it sounded at some points, especially back in season one. And so Elendil now coming there. And of course, I'm interested to see the continued journey of Elendil's character, which I think has been a really wonderful story.
- [23:09]
Alan
Story in the first two seasons.
- [23:11]
Dr. Corey Olsen
But yeah, so not just the introduction of Anarion as a character, but how they're going to be bringing that into the story of the faithful and what that other Numenorean enclave is and how that the concept of that other Numenorean enclave is going to weave into the whole, you know, sort of development of the Numenorean, like the relationship between Numenor and Middle Earth and the identity of the Numenoreans and stuff and their kind of big picture story line. That's one of the things that I'm most curious about in Wings of Power season three.
- [23:40]
Alan
Excellent. Well, Corey, thank you so much for joining us today. I mean, it is always a privilege and pleasure to have you on the show. So we're going to get you back on soon. If. If we don't get to you before then. You're going to have to come back as soon as you're back from. From Kiwi Moot next February.
- [23:53]
Dr. Corey Olsen
Oh, for sure, for sure. And I am always happy to join you anytime.
- [23:57]
Alan
Thank you, sir.
- [23:58]
Don Marshall
Always fantastic. When we have Dr. Corey Olsen on this podcast, he's a blast. Alan, would you like to take us to our first reading of the day?
- [24:08]
Alan
We're going to start out with the Faithful stone and I am so excited to read part of this. On a time there was a druig named Aghan, well known as a Leech. He had a great friendship with Barak, a forester of the folk, who lived in a house in the woods two miles or more from the nearest village. The dwellings of Agon's family were nearer, and he spent most of his time with Barach and his wife and was much loved by their children. There came a time of trouble, for a number of daring orcs had secretly entered the woods nearby and were scattered in twos and threes, waylaying any that went abroad alone and at night attacking houses far from neighbors. The household of Barach were Not much afraid, for Agon stayed with them at night and kept watch outside. But one morning he came to Barakh and said, friend, I have ill news from my kin, and I fear I must leave you a while. My brother has been wounded, and he lies now in pain and calls for me. Since I have skill in treating orc wounds, I will return as soon as I may. Barak was greatly troubled, and his wife and children wept. But Agon said, I will do what I can. I have had a watchstone brought here and set near your house. Barak went out with agan and looked at the watchstone. It was large and heavy, and sat under some bushes not far from his doors. Aga laid his hand upon it and after a silence, said, see, I have left with it some of my powers. May it keep you from harm. Nothing untoward happened for two nights. But on the third night, Barak heard the shrill warning call of the drugs, or dreamed that he heard it, for it roused no one else. Leaving his bed, he took his bow from the wall and went to a narrow window, and he saw two orcs setting fuel against his house and preparing to kindle it. Then Barak was shaken with fear, for marauding orcs carried with them brimstone or some other devilish stuff that was quickly inflamed and not quenched with water. Recovering himself, he bent his bow. But at that moment, just as the flames leapt up, he saw Droog come running up behind the orcs. One he felled with a blow of his fist and the other fled. Then he plunged barefoot into the fire, scattering the burning fuel and stamping on the orc flames that ran along the ground. Barak made for the doors, but when he had unbarred them and sprang out, the drug had disappeared. There was no sign of the smitten Orc. The fire was dead, and there remained only a smoke and a stench.
- [26:55]
Don Marshall
All right, we begin today's second half. Look at the chapter on the Druedyne, with one of their tales of Marvel mentioned at the end of last week, the Faith Faithful Stone.
- [27:06]
Alan
Different than Marvel Tales, I would imagine. I mean, I don't think there's any crossover between the Marvel Universe and this one. No.
- [27:12]
Don Marshall
Well, there's a lot going on in the MCU these days, Alan, so who
- [27:16]
Alan
even knows that's true? I can imagine a Druig hero actually pretty easily. But I think it's interesting here that we get this, like, story, an actual story, in what is otherwise like a historical section, like a narrative bit, talking about these people, like reading a history Book about a people and then getting a story about those people. Two very different things. But it fits really with this whole idea that Tolkien is creating a secondary world that has that interconsistency of reality.
- [27:49]
Don Marshall
Absolutely, absolutely. There's stories within the stories that he just concocts out of seemingly thin air based on very few details or information. We have a fairly compelling story for. For. For what it is we do.
- [28:06]
Alan
It's because he didn't have to give this. He could have just told us who these people are and what they did, give us the history. But he gives us two stories because he gave us that story last week about the guy and the statue of his dad and then, you know, the jacket. And they're like, hey, man, he's never going to need to stretch his legs. Could you lean up against him? And then we get this story which goes on and we only cover the first half of it in this part. But the story is about a droog by the name of Akhan. Now, I didn't do the guttural GH every time I named him, but it is like Khan, Buri Khan. So, you know, forgive us for not doing it every time. We don't have enough water by our microphones to do that. One problem, though, of course, we don't know much about the Droog language, so we don't have any word nerdery on his name. In fact, other than names like Aghan and Khan, we know of only a few words in the Druidon language, Druhu, which is their name for themselves. We talked about that last week. And then the element Buri, meaning son of. Right, Khan, Buri, Khan and Gorgun. That's the only other word we know, and that's Orcs or Orc folks.
- [29:10]
Don Marshall
What we know about Akhan is that he is known among his people as a healer and that his friends with a man from the folk of Haleth by the name of Barakh.
- [29:22]
Alan
And that's also another name for which we have no information. If you remember, the language of the Haladin was alien to those of the House of Beor and the House of Hador. So not a lot of word nerdery exists on the language of the holiday.
- [29:35]
Don Marshall
If only Tolkien had just written, you know, couple more words, fleshed it out just ever so slightly. Yeah, this Barak fellow lives well outside the local haladin village about 2 miles Agon and his family, much closer than the village was. And so Aegon spent a lot of his time with Barak and his family. His Wife and kids about whom we are given. Again, no information.
- [30:02]
Alan
So it's a story.
- [30:03]
Don Marshall
So yeah, we don't necessarily need to know. Barak's kids in particular though took a liking to him.
- [30:09]
Alan
Yeah, but it is a dangerous world. And there's some orcs in the nearby forest. I like this. It's very telling about the orcs. They're going around in twos and threes. But they're attacking solo travelers. That's what orcs do. They're never going to attack if the numbers are even. They're always going to attack when they have that numerical advantage. But the real problem isn't just that they're waylaying solo travelers. The problem is they're attacking homes at night that are distant. So, hello. This is one of the drawbacks to living out in the boonies. Barak and his family are at grave risk.
- [30:41]
Don Marshall
Yeah, that's right. Very dangerous stuff, just even leaving your front door, as a certain hobbit would say. Indeed. But Barak and his family have the newest Droog security system. Argon. Who stays with them at night and keeps watch. Like adt.
- [30:59]
Alan
But you know, Arta drew technology. I don't know.
- [31:04]
Don Marshall
There it is. There it is. And then remember what we said last week about how they'd find a shadowy spot or sit or stand perfectly still for days and then see and remember everything that's happened.
- [31:18]
Alan
Everything. You don't have to worry about whether your camera's hooked up to the Internet or whether you put a memory card in or whether your hard drive ran out of space. They remember everything. They see it all. And they're not even locked into one perspective. They can move their eyes. So it's like a super wide angle camera. Yeah. So here's the thing about these advanced alarm systems. That the Druig really are here. The enemies would know that they are being watched. Right. The gaze of these Druidon are felt, quote, as a hostile menace by enemies. We read last week, forcing. Most of them just turn around and leave. But if they did go past, you get that high pitched whistle as a warning.
- [31:56]
Don Marshall
Yeah, very helpful system to have. But of course, Aegon can't be there. Every night he delivers the news to his friend. My brother has been attacked and injured by orcs. And then since I'm a healer, he's calling. I have to go. I'll hurry back as quick as I can. Just trying to get back to him.
- [32:13]
Alan
Exactly. Got to get to my brother. And the whole family is quite understandably upset. I mean, his wife and kids are openly Crying about it. But while Agon still has to go, he explains, look, I've. I've come up with something. I know I can't stay, but I've had a watchstone set near your house. So if we go back to last week, we talked about these watchstones. We read that since the Druidyne made them for this purpose, men held, quote, that they would hold some menace for any foe.
- [32:39]
Don Marshall
Barak and Agon go out to look at the stone. It's described as large, but it's not clear if it's like a life size thing or if it's larger or even smaller than that.
- [32:50]
Alan
Yeah, we don't really know.
- [32:51]
Don Marshall
Yeah, not sure yet. But Aegon puts his hand on the watchstone and there's a moment when he doesn't speak.
- [32:59]
Alan
Yeah, like a little moment of silence as he does something. Right. And what does he do? Well, he tells his friend, you know, Barak, I've imbued this watch stone with, quote, some of my powers. And then he expresses his wish that the stone would protect his family. I've got to imagine, given the reputation that these stones have, that that would provide some reassurance to Barak's family. Yeah, yeah.
- [33:23]
Don Marshall
I mean, I'd feel safe. I'd feel safe.
- [33:25]
Alan
Safe. Ish. I'd feel safer if he was around.
- [33:29]
Dr. Corey Olsen
Yeah.
- [33:29]
Alan
But, yeah, yeah, it's really interesting.
- [33:32]
Don Marshall
Now, the first two nights after Aegon leaves, they pass by pretty peacefully. But on that third night, something very strange happens. Barak wakes up unsure of whether he has heard or dreamt. He heard that warning call.
- [33:48]
Alan
And that's the thing. So nobody else is up. And that gives him pause as to whether it might have just been a dream. I mean, if, if, if you hear that sound and you get up because you're waking up to, to respond to that sound and nobody else has woken up. You know, maybe that really hasn't happened. Maybe it is just a dream. So he gets up, grabs a weapon, looks out the window, and he sees two orcs trying to burn him out of his house. Bad idea.
- [34:11]
Don Marshall
Yeah. Not something you want to see when you first wake up. It's terrifying and a very, very fearful prospect, to say the least.
- [34:19]
Alan
You're not kidding.
- [34:20]
Don Marshall
Given that the orcs are also using some sort of accelerant that makes it burn faster. And it's said to not be extinguishable by water. So.
- [34:29]
Alan
And that set me off on a quick little tangent, like, okay, what are the things that aren't going to be put out by. By water? I mean, obviously, electrical fires aren't put out by water. But this isn't going to be electrical fire. We're talking about either combustible metals, right? Like magnesium or sodium. Pretty unlikely that they're using those. We're probably talking about some sort of cooking fats, like lard. You know, you used to see that, like, folks would fire a ship by. By putting a big, you know, lump of lard in there and then shooting a flaming arrow, and that would spread. And of course, if you poured water in it, all that did was spread the oil. Right. So that's probably what we're talking about here. But, you know, it could be any number of things. The whole idea, though, is that water doesn't. Port doesn't put it out.
- [35:09]
Don Marshall
And he's probably watching a little bit too long because the fire starts before he's able to get a hold of himself together. He draws his bow to shoot. And though he does that, he sees a droog, unidentified droog at this point, come up running and attack the Orc, knocking one down, forcing the other one to run away. But the house is basically still on fire at this point.
- [35:34]
Alan
Right. And so this droog stamps out the flames as Barach runs over to the door. But amazingly, when he gets to the door and opens it, the druig is gone and there's no sign of the fallen Orc. The fire is out. It's not like they're just, you know, embers going. There's just the smoke and the smell. So had the fallen Orc gotten up and run? Were the Orcs an illusion to begin with? Had the fire been put out an hour before? How much was dream and how much was real? We don't know, do we?
- [36:05]
Don Marshall
We don't. And I. I think, again, this is one of those stories within a story that, you know, leads to something else or a larger point or just speaks to the cultural aspects of whatever race Tolkien is trying to. To imbue us with here with their culture. Yeah, I just see it as, like, a warning, I think, for more than anything, just as this. This thing to be aware of this because. Because magical power systems, like, for things like, you know, Harry Potter, for any video games that have hard rules. Tolkien doesn't really have that. There's just a set of soft rules that I think you can sort of get away with.
- [36:49]
Alan
It's interesting because I'm thinking this whole thing's a dream if it isn't for the fact that when he gets out there, there's smoke and a smell.
- [36:56]
Don Marshall
Yeah. Like, okay, Yeah, I think that's hard to fake.
- [36:59]
Alan
You've got no orcs, you've got no embers, the fire's gone, your house is still standing up, but you so you're thinking dream, but you have actual physical evidence in front of you of that there was a fire, but it's a cold fire now. So like, when did this happen? It's an interesting question. Like, okay, I don't know that there's an answer to this. In fact, I'm pretty sure there isn't. But what's going on here and how much of this is real and how much this is dream? Which is a question people ask about PPP episodes all the time. How much of this is real? How much of this is a dream? If you want to know what's really worth your time when it comes to losing weight, skip the guesswork and get Weight Loss by Hims HIMS offers access to an affordable range of FDA approved GLP1 medications that now includes the Wegovy pill and the WeGovy pen, plus lifestyle tips to support you along the way. With WeGovy at HIMSS lose up to 20% or more of your body weight when you combine it with diet and exercise and with a range of affordable GLP1 options, HIMS makes it simple to find a weight loss approach that fits into your world and your wallet. If eligible, you'll get a treatment plan personalized to you and unlimited dosage changes as needed. Ready to reach your goals? Visit himss.com pony to get a personalized, affordable plan that gets you that's h I m s.com pony hims.com pony Weight loss by HIMSS is not available in all 50 states. WeGovy is the registered trademark of Novo Nordisk as To get started and learn more, including important safety information, WeGovy clinical study information, and restrictions, visit hims.com I'm too busy to get my shopping done in person these days, so most everything I buy, I buy online. It is such a pain to remember all the login info for every site and what payment methods are saved where. Sometimes though, I see that little purple pay button at the top makes it so much easier. No need to get my wallet out. No need to create a new account at yet another new vendor. Shopify makes it easy to just complete my checkout with one tap. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world, from household names like Mattel and Heinz to brands just getting started. Speaking of getting started, Shopify helps you get started building your online store with your own design studio and hundreds of ready to use templates to help you make your online presence match your brand style, from inventory to payments and analytics. To store templates, tackle all the important tasks with Shopify. No need for multiple websites or figuring out which platform has the tool you want to use. It's all in one place with Shopify. See less carts go abandoned and more sales go. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com pony go to shopify.com pony that's shopify.com pony this Father's Day, do more with dad and spend less with low prices guaranteed at the Home Depot. Get him fired up with a new grill and accessories like the next Grill 5 burner for just $299 so you can spend more time together while he becomes the grill master he was always meant to be. Or build memories with savings on top brand power tools so you can tackle projects side by side, gift more, and do more together. This Father's Day with help from the Home Depot exclusions, apply to home depot.com price match for details. Now. Soon we'll get Back to the Droogs 24 hour monitored home security service for only $29.95 a month. But before we do, I want to take a minute to thank the amazing community that's grown up around this show over the past 10 years. After all, there is a lot more talk going on at the Prince Prancing Pony Podcast than just us.
- [40:57]
Don Marshall
The PPP really does have a warm and very welcoming listener community. If you've got questions or you just want to talk about how much you love Middle Earth, be sure to check out our Common room on Facebook and across social media. On Facebook, just look for Prancing Pony Podcast. Yep, there's a page, but you're going to want to join the group for that great fan community that's right now
- [41:19]
Alan
on every social media platform other than Facebook. We're just at Prancing Pony Pod and you can find our subreddit at R Prancing Pony Pod. Be sure to check out my daily show, Today's Tolkien Times on all your favorite podcast apps. That's where you can get your daily Middle Earth fix with everything from Tolkien Tuesdays to third Age Thursdays. Be sure to listen wherever you get your podcasts. Don, I'd like to have you read the rest of a Faithful Stone.
- [41:43]
Don Marshall
Gladly, Alan later in the day, Agon came back and was welcomed with joy. He was wearing high buskins such as the Droogs sometimes wore in hard country among thorns or rocks. And he was weary, but he was smiling and seemed pleased, and he said, I bring good news. My brother is no longer in pain and will not die, for I came in time to withstand the venom. And now I learn that the marauders have been slain or else fled. How have you fared? We are still alive, said Barak. But come with me, and I will show you and tell you more. Then he led Agan to a place of the fire and told him of the attack in the night. The watchstone has gone orcwork, I guess. What have you to say to that? I will speak when I have looked and thought longer, said Aghan. And then he went hither and thither, scanning the ground, and Barak followed him at length. Aghan led him to a thicket at the edge of the clearing in which the house stood. There the watchstone was sitting on a dead orc, but its legs were all blackened and cracked, and one of its feet had split off and lay loose at its side. Ahon looked grieved, but he said, ah, well, he did what he could, and better that his leg should trample orc fire than mine. Then he sat down and unlaced his buskins, and Barak saw under them were the bandages on his legs. Aghan undid them. They are healing already, he said. I had kept vigil by my brother for two nights, and last night I slept. I woke before morning came and I was in pain and found my legs blistered. Then I guessed what had happened. Alas, if some power passes from you to the thing that you have made, then you must take a share in its hurts.
- [43:59]
Alan
That last line has a lot to unpack, and we will get there. But. But I want to go back. In fact, I want to go back to a little bit that we. We actually skipped reading. It was a small part of the continuation of the story. Barak, after seeing no work and a dead fire and nothing else, goes back to the house and lets his family know, look, it's all okay, right? By that point they had been woken up not by the sound, you know, the alert sound, but by the noise and the burning. But then again, okay, that much at least, was real. We know the burning was real because he goes out there and there's remnants of a fire. Does this help us determine what parts might have been a dream? I mean, I don't know. What can we decipher from this, From.
- [44:41]
Don Marshall
From this specifically? Not much. It's. I. I think just based on everything else within the context of the story, though, I'm. You begin to start thinking or seeing it as a. A real kind of magic or a real kind of power that is in place here.
- [45:00]
Alan
Yeah, I agree.
- [45:00]
Don Marshall
He waits until sunrise to head back so he could see and maybe figure out what had happened during the night.
- [45:06]
Alan
Yeah, I mean, that makes sense. I mean, it's dark, right? He's not going to have a lot of light to see by. Maybe he can grab a torch, but he's not going to be able to look for the prints of the Orcs or try to figure out what happened until the sun comes up. He knows he's safe, right? The fire's out. The Orcs are gone. I don't know how well I'd sleep in that situation, but at least he's probably very poorly. Probably. But he does wait till sunrise to go and try to gather that information. So what. What does he find when he does go out?
- [45:35]
Don Marshall
Well, interestingly enough, the watchstone is gone. And of course, he. He doesn't tell his family. He decides that he'll just keep watch all night. And then. Yeah, it's. It's something you do. But you gotta wonder, now that the stone is gone, the. The first thought is that he has is, oh, well, the Orcs stole it.
- [45:57]
Alan
Well, yeah, that's the thing. Like, okay, what does Barak think is going on here when he finds not only are there no Orcs that I pretty sure I saw, in fact, I know I saw them when I was awake. I saw them, you know, trying to light my house on fire. They're gone. There's evidence that there was a fire, but now the watch stone's gone. Does he think that the Orcs took it like you suggested, or does he think, I don't know, I don't know. What does this signify to him? I don't think we really are given any clues here, but it's. It's an interesting question, like, what would he think when he saw the stone is gone?
- [46:38]
Don Marshall
We pick up on our readings with the return of Agon sometime later in the day. Not surprisingly, his family is thrilled that he is back.
- [46:48]
Alan
Yeah, we have our alarm system back. And that's a good thing because we got attacked real quick. Aside, he's described as wearing high buskins. Now these are knee or calf length laced boots. And since these are high buskins, they're likely knee length. They're usually made of leather or cloth, and they were typically worn to protect the lower legs of hunters, soldiers and travelers. Though they were intended to protect the legs, they were still open Toed. So they weren't like there to protect your toes so much as they protect your leg. They're open toed. Kind of like they're an evolutionary extension of the sandal. So they provided the stability of a boot for the shin with the ventilation of a sandal. And they go back to ancient Greek and Roman times where in ancient theater, actors in tragedies would wear thick soled versions of these to make themselves appear taller and heroic, while the comedy actors would simply wear basically socks. They would. They would, you know, be smaller. I don't know that that tragedy comedy distinction is important. I brought that in because. Just in case. Because it's certainly worth noting that Tolkien would have been absolutely well aware of this. He had studied Greek, he'd even performed plays in ancient Greek. So, you know, he knows his classics and he would know what the buskins represent, what they are.
- [48:00]
Don Marshall
So, yeah, he certainly does. There's, I think, definitely an element of that in this. But we come back to Akhan wearing the buskins. Droogs are said to regularly wear these in hard country. So that was the purpose. We're not using necessarily any relation to the theater for this, but it is to protect the lower legs just from thorns.
- [48:24]
Alan
Yeah, absolutely. So wherever his brother was, it's been a long journey for Akhan and he's tired. But he is happy, right?
- [48:32]
Don Marshall
Yeah, he is very happy. The mission is a success. His brother's going to live. His pain is gone. Remember, Aegon is a leech. That is another word for a medic. And the Orc that had attacked his brother are either dead or gone. So, Barak, how did you and your family get along while I was gone? What's going on with you guys?
- [48:55]
Alan
That's an interesting question that he asks because as we'll see later, he's got some connections of what happened. So do you think he knows or do you think he just has a vague. I mean, like, how does this magic quote unquote work? Right. We'll see later that he was involved. But what, does he have a memory?
- [49:12]
Don Marshall
This is, I think, the. The question at the heart of this story about, you know, how much cognizance is lent to, you know, the magic system or the powers that they. The Droogs have. At what point is the magic a part of them that just happens naturally and how much can they control? And I think in this instance, because he asks, that might just be him asking.
- [49:43]
Alan
So, yeah, how much of this did you experience?
- [49:46]
Dr. Corey Olsen
Right?
- [49:47]
Don Marshall
How much of it are you aware of versus me? That Kind of guessed that something happened because I have these blisters, right?
- [49:56]
Alan
So Barak states the obvious like we're still alive. But then he wants to show Aegon what's happened and tell him this story.
- [50:03]
Don Marshall
Yeah. He tells him about the attack shows him the remnants of the fire and tells him that the watch stone is gone which he thinks is Orc work. That is, that the Orcs, you know, took the stone.
- [50:14]
Alan
Okay, there you go. That answers that question.
- [50:16]
Don Marshall
Yeah, we've got that. Yep. But Agon won't offer his opinion right away. He wants to take a closer look and, you know, do some more thinking.
- [50:24]
Alan
Of course. So he studies the ground closely. Remember, the Droogs are really, really good at tracking so that means they're probably gonna be very good at reading the environment and kind of deciphering what took place. He studies the ground closely, maybe looking for marks that would indicate where the watchstone went. If it was of any size, and we know that it was large it would have been too heavy to just pick up and carry. They would have had to drag it. And he ends up in a dense group of trees not too far away. And he does find the watchstone there. But it's sitting on a dead Orc. Which the statue is not going to do on its own, is it?
- [50:56]
Don Marshall
No, it certainly isn't. And moreover, the legs of the statue are damaged. They are burned. They are cracked. They are missing a foot. And Aon has a look of sorrow on his face. He's sad about this.
- [51:09]
Alan
Yeah, absolutely. Though he is sorrowful, he's also relieved. Right. He. That is to say, the watchstone. So it did all that was possible. And, of course, B, it's better that he puts out the Orc fire than that my own legs do that. Now, before we move on to Agon unlacing his buskins what must be going through Barak's mind at this point? I mean, he hears Oghan refer to the stone as he and not it and suggesting that the stone put the fire out.
- [51:40]
Don Marshall
I think that he is a very important distinction. I think that there is maybe not quite a life but in the same way that we were talking about those. The spirits being trapped in Mordor in those statues. But this is, you know, on. In a more positive light.
- [51:57]
Alan
Yeah.
- [51:58]
Don Marshall
As this sort of way to connect with nature in some way. But I think the use of the word he is incredibly important here.
- [52:10]
Alan
And the awareness that Aghan has that the statue is who did this. Like, he knows. And of course he knows, as we'll see. Because now he sits down and unlaces his buskins. Remember, these actually lace from the toe where they start all the way up to the calf, or even to the knee in this case. Probably.
- [52:29]
Don Marshall
Yeah. His legs are all bandaged up, surely to Barak's surprise, but clearly not Agon surprise.
- [52:34]
Alan
Right.
- [52:35]
Don Marshall
He begins by pointing out that his legs are already healing, and then backtracks, basically to explain everything to Barak.
- [52:42]
Alan
Yeah, and that's where we. We pick up sort of his retelling of the story from his perspective, which is that he had stayed up with his brother during the first two nights of the healing process, but finally slept last night. Now, I'm curious, since it's only after he fell asleep that the Orcs then attacked, was that just coincidental, or was his being a wild awake with his brother but still being awake, was that something that maybe kept the Orcs away for those first couple of nights? Are Watchstones, and I know there's no answer to this question, are they more potent when the sculptor himself is awake and watching?
- [53:17]
Don Marshall
That seems to be the implication, though, here, doesn't it? Just because he was already awake, it's
- [53:24]
Alan
either total coincidence or there's a connection between its ability to ward off the Orcs. Right. We know that as we read last week, when the enemies see one of these Watchstones, they can feel it's looking at them as this hostile enmity, and they turn around and run screaming. Right?
- [53:45]
Don Marshall
Yeah.
- [53:46]
Alan
But if the Watchstones creator is asleep, does that make the Stones watching less effective in some. Some way? I mean, we don't know, but it's an interesting question, I guess. Yeah, it is.
- [53:59]
Don Marshall
And I love that Tolkien makes stories that have these sorts of interesting questions where we'll never quite know.
- [54:06]
Alan
Yeah, questions that cannot be answered.
- [54:07]
Don Marshall
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good old Tom Bombadil conundrum there. So Agon woke up before morning in pain with legs that had suffered from some sort of burns. They were blistered for no real reason, but he quickly surmised what had happened, that the Watchstone had done its job, or his. His job, I guess.
- [54:28]
Alan
Yeah.
- [54:29]
Don Marshall
Of stymieing an attack and seemingly putting out the fire.
- [54:33]
Alan
That's right. And that's where Tolkien ends the story with that line that I pointed out was, like, really important. We're going to spend some time unpacking it. If some power passes from you to a thing that you have made, then you must take a share in its hurts. Now, in the footnote, Christopher points out something a professor had said about these stories in general, that I'm sure, you all are thinking about. It's also specifically about the Faithful Stone. These tales that talk about the Droog putting their powers into artifacts remind one in miniature of Sauron's transference of power to the foundations of Barad Dur and to the ruling Ring.
- [55:14]
Don Marshall
Whoa. Oh, that's an important footnote, isn't it? That's a very important footnote.
- [55:22]
Alan
It's huge, the cost of putting one's power into something else. The Ring, the Watchstones. We could even go back to Morgoth pouring his strength and power into Arda itself. Right, that line that. Just as Sauron concentrated his power in the One Ring, Morgoth dispersed his power into the very matter of Arda. And thus the whole of Middle Earth was Morgoth's ring. So we can think about that. We can even think about Feanor and the Silmarils. All of these things where you put your power into something else, take something from you. Cause you to be in a situation where you will take harm from it if it is harmed.
- [56:01]
Don Marshall
Yeah.
- [56:02]
Alan
You must take a share or take a share in its hurts really fast.
- [56:09]
Don Marshall
Share the load, if you will.
- [56:10]
Alan
Share the load. Wow. Yeah. Yeah, that's fair. So, what do you think about this? Last week we talked about the parallels between these Watchstones and the Watchers. Both the. Well, sort of the Watchers in Morgulvale, but really, actually, yeah, the Watchers at Cirith Ungol, when Sam had to try to get in and use the Vial of Galadriel to get in. And then when he used it again to help he and Frodo get out, those Watchers had an evil will of their own, just like these sort of have a good will of their own.
- [56:41]
Don Marshall
It feels as though Tolkien is trying to get across, that there is a way to tap into the sort of magical powers of the world, but that they can be used for both good and ill. Well, yes, there's this idea that it's not necessarily a nefarious sort of action to put a spirit in a stone, so long as there is, you know, a. A respect behind it. Sauron, I think, maybe has. Has corrupted that. Significant.
- [57:17]
Alan
Well, I mean, yeah, I don't know who's stuck in those stones, but it's. It's nobody who's enjoying themselves. No, it's an interesting idea that. But now I want to take the connection from that, where we talk about the parallel between the Watchers and the Watch Stones, and I want to talk about that parallel between the Watchstones and the Ring. If Tolkien himself is saying that this reminds one in miniature of Sauron's transfer of power to the foundations of Barad Dur into the Ruling Ring. Those things also weakened Sauron. Like Sauron's only vulnerable because the Ruling Ring exists, and he has poured so much of himself into it that its destruction causes his own destruction. If he doesn't have that weakness, he's not vulnerable. But here we have. And that's the share in its hurts. Here we have Ahan making this Watchstone, pouring enough of himself. Right. As the story said in the portion that I read. How did he actually read it? He said, specifically, you know, here I've put in some of my power. Right. I've left with it, some of my powers may keep you from harm. He's now vulnerable.
- [58:29]
Don Marshall
Yeah.
- [58:29]
Alan
He now has to take a share in its hurts.
- [58:32]
Don Marshall
Right.
- [58:33]
Alan
So did he have any say over what it did in response? Or is that part sort of like, oh, no, the Watchstones are always going to do the heroic thing. They're always going to. And you don't know what that's going to be, but it's going to cost you?
- [58:46]
Don Marshall
I think that seems to be the indication here. There's. There's not really a. Another way for me to take it. At least just if. If there was, you know, I think I'd prefer to not get blisters all over my shins if it were all the same to me.
- [59:03]
Alan
That's fair. That's fair.
- [59:04]
Don Marshall
So, yeah, it is. It is a little bit of giving up something of yourself.
- [59:10]
Alan
I mean, like, is. Is Akhan in any way? And again, I know I'm asking questions that can't be answered. Is he controlling the Watch Stone, or is it like a free acting portion of his own will responding as he would were he there, and then he has to pay some of that price. I don't know. There isn't an answer. But it's an interesting question.
- [59:33]
Don Marshall
It is an interesting question.
- [59:35]
Alan
If he doesn't control it, then he's sort of given it instructions, right? You will watch over this family. You will protect this family. That's what you're going to do. And it does it. He does that in Agon's absence, but Agon pays the price. It's very interesting. Is this.
- [59:54]
Don Marshall
Is this almost like, if you're familiar with the term, a simulacrum.
- [59:58]
Alan
Oh, yeah, yeah. Where.
- [59:59]
Don Marshall
Where you can have sort of a superficial or a copy of yourself in some way, be. Be manifested in your likeness.
- [60:11]
Alan
So, hmm, It's a representation of a person. I mean, certainly, I'M thinking of it in the D and D context. Right.
- [60:19]
Don Marshall
Yeah. That was sort of what I was thinking of for Dungeons and Dragons. But it occurs to me that throughout magical incantations of the world, copies and doubles have always sort of been.
- [60:29]
Alan
Yeah, this seems as pretty close to a simulacrum as you can get. Yeah. A likeness or a semblance. So. Yeah. I don't know. Interesting stuff, though. Anything more on this story before we move on? Because this is really the heart of the whole chapter is this faithful Stone tale. Or is there any other elements of the story that you felt need a little more exploration at all?
- [60:53]
Don Marshall
I'm personally a little bit terrified of the idea that the Droogs have the same power as Sauron or at the very least as the Watchstones. And it just sort of becomes this question of who, who. Who doesn't have that power? Is it possible for humans to tap into something like that? Or Elves or dwarves, or Hobbits? Or is it just these, These. These pugle men that have. Just the Dr. Yeah, just the Dr. That have this.
- [61:21]
Alan
Like. Everybody has their own special unique powers, right?
- [61:25]
Don Marshall
Yeah. Yeah, I guess that's another good way to put it. Hobbits have their. Their ability to sneak and Elves have their.
- [61:32]
Alan
Else have their immortality, but also immortality.
- [61:35]
Don Marshall
Yeah.
- [61:36]
Alan
They have magic in a way too, but it's the kind of thing that they don't think of as magic.
- [61:40]
Don Marshall
Right. They just turn themselves into bats sometimes. Like Luthien.
- [61:43]
Alan
What is it? Pippin.
- [61:44]
Don Marshall
That's.
- [61:46]
Alan
I'm thinking of when the Fellowshiper in Lorien and they get the. The cloaks. I think it is. And Pippin. Or I think it's. I think it's. Pippin asks, you know, is this magic? Well, you know, your folk might call it magic, but it's just. We just weave the love of all that we care about into all that we make. And that's. If you want to call that magic. It's magic with the Droog, then it's. Call this magic. Or is this just what they are?
- [62:12]
Don Marshall
You know, Feels like this is just what they are.
- [62:15]
Alan
Yeah, I think so.
- [62:16]
Don Marshall
And it's a type of magic for everyone else.
- [62:18]
Alan
It's a kind of magic. Sorry, little queen from Highlander for you there.
- [62:23]
Don Marshall
I think that's a great way to segue into the next portion of reading.
- [62:26]
Alan
Alan, you have nothing else to. To say? All right, fair enough. All right. I will continue with further notes on the Druidine. My father was at pains to emphasize the radical difference between the Druidine and the Hobbits, they were of quite different physical shape and appearance. The Druidyne were taller and of heavier and stronger build. Their facial features were unlovely judged by general human standards. And while the head hair of the Hobbits was abundant but close and curly the Druedyne had only sparse and lank hair on their heads and none at all on their legs and feet. They were at times merry and gay like Hobbits but they had a grimmer side to their nature and could be sardonic and ruthless. And they had, or were credited with strange or magical powers. They were, moreover, a frugal people eating sparingly even in times of plenty and drinking nothing but water. In some ways they resembled rather the Dwarves in build and stature and endurance in their skill in carving stone in the grim side of their character and in their strange powers. But the magic skills with which the Dwarves were credited were quite different. And the Dwarves were far grimmer and also long lived whereas the Druedyne were short lived compared with other kinds of men. And while we skip a bit here we'll also bring in a rejected passage from this chapter that shows up in the Nature of Middle Earth, Chapter 14, A Note on the Consumption of Mushrooms. You'll see why I bring this in to talk about connecting with the Hobbits. The Druidyne's knowledge of all growing things was almost equal to that of the Elves although untaught by them discerning those that were poisonous or useful as medicine or good as food. To the astonishment of Elves and other men they ate funguses with pleasure many of which looked to others, men and Hobbits, dangerous. Some kinds, which they specially liked, they caused to grow near their dwellings. The Eldar did not eat these things. The folk of Haleth, taught by the Druedain, made some use of them at need and if they were guests, they ate what was provided in courtesy and without fear. The other Atani eschewed them saving great hunger when astray in the wild. For few among them had the knowledge to distinguish the wholesome from the bad and the less wise called them Orc plants and supposed them to have been cursed and blighted by Morgoth. A quick aside, that's my opinion. But Tolkien wrote in a rough penciled note in the margin, delete all this about funguses to like Hobbits. All right, there you go.
- [65:13]
Don Marshall
Yeah, yeah. I mean, we had to include that little bonus reading because that is very, very Hobbit like but also very, very different in another sense. We'll we'll get to that.
- [65:25]
Alan
We will. So Christopher begins the section in Unfinished Tales, not the section I just read at the end. This was the further notes about the Druidyne. He begins this with his father's clear emphasis on the big differences between these unusual people and Hobbits. First of all, very different shape and different look. The Druidyne are taller. They're also bigger and stronger.
- [65:43]
Dr. Corey Olsen
Right.
- [65:44]
Don Marshall
They're also slightly less conventionally attractive. You know, they. They don't have the hair on their heads. They don't have any on their feet. So that settles it, really, doesn't it?
- [65:53]
Alan
Well, yeah, the lack of foot hair really settles the. The lack of connection between these Druidyne. But it is more than just those physical differences. We also read about how they have very different temperatures. Temperaments, huh?
- [66:03]
Don Marshall
Yeah. They can be happy, like the Hobbits. They also have a bit of a darker side.
- [66:08]
Alan
That's right. Said here to be a grimmer side. And that could show up as sardonic which is a word that means mocking or cynical, scornful or derisive. And they could even be ruthless. Right. No pity, no compassion. Now, people say, or maybe it's even true, as we certainly read about with the Watchstones, that the Droog have magical powers. The text here is intentionally and frustratingly vague. They had or were credited with stranger magical powers. Doesn't say much at all, does it? It doesn't say whether they had them. It doesn't say what they are. No, they just had or credited with it means nothing. Thank you for telling me. Nothing, Professor. You've given us nothing to work with here.
- [66:51]
Don Marshall
And yet the simply planting the ideas, suggesting that, yes, perhaps they did. And you'll never know. I'll just stand here and wave my arms.
- [67:01]
Alan
Or perhaps it's some natural power that isn't magic. You think it's magic because anything that can't be explained is magic.
- [67:08]
Don Marshall
Right.
- [67:09]
Alan
So.
- [67:10]
Don Marshall
Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're also. I mean, keep in mind they're also very careful. They're thrifty. Very different from the sort of generous nature that we get from Hobbits.
- [67:20]
Alan
Even if it's just generous to themselves.
- [67:21]
Don Marshall
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And they also never eat very much, which, you know, very unhobbit. Like.
- [67:29]
Alan
Yeah. If nothing else convinced you they're not related to the Hobbits that should.
- [67:33]
Don Marshall
Yeah, they don't drink anything other than water. Again, not too many Hobbits could say that at all.
- [67:39]
Alan
That is fair.
- [67:40]
Don Marshall
So in some ways, then, they were a little bit more like the dwarves than the Hobbits. Certainly with their physical builds they were more similar. They also had very similar, similar endurance, stone carving skills and even some of their quote unquote power powers.
- [67:57]
Alan
And here we get a distinction made between them and the dwarves. Right. The magic of the dwarves was quite different. Dwarves were also much grimmer than the Dru. We know that. One other problem that, that distinguishes them from the dwarves. The dwarves would often live like 300 years. The druidi, not so much. They're short lived in comparison with other people. Men. And men already are short lived in comparison with the dwarves. So I mean I don't know what that means for their lifespan. But if, if the men are dying of natural causes in their 70s, maybe even 80s, they maybe what, live to 50 or 60. These are not a long lived people.
- [68:33]
Don Marshall
Yeah, yeah. Let's chat about this note about the mushrooms though. The Drew's are genuine experts in identifying and using the mushrooms that they find not only what's good to eat and what's poisonous. Useful for their poison darts obviously, but also what's good medicinally, which is something that Agon would certainly have known as a leech.
- [68:59]
Alan
Certainly. We're told by the way, the elves never eat mushrooms. And I love the way the text says that just very simply, the Eldar did not eat these things. Things just no boom, no chance, no shot, no way. The elves are like, you're out of your minds. I'm not going to eat that fungus. That thing's been growing on who knows what. Yeah. And neither did most men. Right. The latter because they didn't know what was healthy and what wasn't. Some of them even calling them orc plants. And that's going to be my description of them from now on. If somebody says do I want mushrooms on my steak? I will say no, I do not want or plants on my steak. They actually figured that that Morgoth had something to do with them. I can understand why they would have thought that. Right. These are think about where mushrooms grow often. Not always, but, but, but often I can understand why they would think these are like corrupted plants and they don't reproduce like other plants. They, they the spores, everything out that they would see the spores but they would look at the way these mushrooms spread and think what is going on here. This is bizarre.
- [70:03]
Don Marshall
Knowing how fascinating they are in real life, I can appreciate mushrooms for what they are. That being said, can be a little terrifying. Yeah, can be just a little terrifying
- [70:13]
Alan
thinking this plant could taste good or it could kill you. Yeah.
- [70:16]
Don Marshall
Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's not a 50, 50 shot, but it is certainly,
- [70:22]
Alan
it's, it's non zero.
- [70:24]
Don Marshall
Yeah, yeah. And as long as it's a non zero, I'm just thinking, you know, maybe hold off.
- [70:30]
Alan
Yeah.
- [70:30]
Don Marshall
Meantime, the folk of Haleth were the only exception. They'd eat the mushrooms, but primarily when they were the guests of the Druidain. Still, they were the only men who used them at all.
- [70:45]
Alan
Now the thing is, given the Hobbit's passion about mushrooms, as we see, you know, in that encounter with Farmer Maggot, Tolkien decided that this was one similarity between the Druidyne and the Hobbits that he could do without. In order to avoid leading the reader to think that the Hobbits and the Droog are similar, or heaven forbid, even worse, that the Hobbits and the Droog are related, he just cuts this entire note. This is too much like Hobbits cut this all together.
- [71:10]
Don Marshall
I, I agree with this. I think while it is cool to see the sort of creative process behind is, it is one of those things that I'm glad that he left on the cutting room floor, so to speak. There's a, there's, there's parts of the Lord of the Rings lore that are already confusing and overlap with each other and don't make sense canonically. We, we do not, we don't need more.
- [71:31]
Alan
Yeah, yeah, that is fair.
- [71:33]
Don Marshall
And then in this part of the section that we didn't read, we learn about a note that Tolkien wrote that connects the First Age Druidyne, like Agon and the ancestors of Han Bore Han, as well as the creators of the Pukkleman statues that Mary and the rest of the observed on their way to Dunharrow.
- [71:51]
Alan
Now as a reminder, let's go back to the Lord of the Rings to read about those. At each turn of the road there were great standing stones that had been carved the likeness of men, huge and clumsy limbed, squatting, cross legged with their stumpy arms folded on fat bellies. Some in the wearing of the years had lost all features save the dark holes of their eyes that still stared sadly at the passersby. The riders hardly glanced at them. The Pukkul Men they called them, and heeded them little. No power or terror was left in them, but Merry gazed at them with wonder and a feeling almost of pity as they loomed up mournfully in the dusk.
- [72:31]
Don Marshall
And as for Hanbury Han, let's get Merry's first view of him as well. Before Theoden and Eomer. On the ground sat a strange squat shape of a man, gnarled as an old stone, and hairs of his scanty beard straggled on his lumpy chin like dry moss. He was short legged and fat, armed, thick and stumpy, and clad only with grass about his waist. Merry felt that he had seen him before somewhere, and suddenly he remembered the Pukklemen of Dunharrow. Here was one of those old images brought to life, or maybe a creature descended in true line through endless years from the models used by the forgotten craftsmen long ago.
- [73:18]
Alan
All that, and the only note we get connecting these two moments with these unusual people that lived among the folk of Haleth was a single note explaining that a branch of the Druedain lived in the Forest of Brethil with them,
- [73:32]
Don Marshall
while most of them had remained in the White Mountains in spite of their persecution by later arrived men who had relapsed into the service of the Dark.
- [73:42]
Alan
Of course, some of those relapsed men are the ones who Aragorn leads from the Stone of Erech. The Oathbreakers, the dead Men of Dunharrow.
- [73:54]
Don Marshall
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- [74:26]
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Alan
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- [75:28]
Don Marshall
We told you about the amazing PPP community after our earlier break but if you're part of that community and you want to enjoy something more special, come join the Fellowship of the Podcast on Patreon. You get to be in the best discord community around, one that includes host hangouts and even live episode recordings.
- [75:47]
Alan
And your support there is what enables me to work full time doing all the shows the ppp, Today's Tolkien Times, the Rings of Power Wrap up, and my streaming show the PPP Plays. When you join, you also can get episode postscripts, ad free episodes, free merch and more.
- [76:02]
Don Marshall
And you can join our Questions after Nightfall episodes or even appear as a guest in the north wing. Go to patreon.com prancingponypod to show your support and join the Fellowship of the Podcast.
- [76:15]
Alan
And don't forget to rate and review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And please recommend us to your friends, something you can do directly on Spotify. Now Don, would you tell us about these secretive people?
- [76:28]
Don Marshall
Yes, I can. It is also said here that the identity of the statues of Dunharrow with the remnants of the Druannoth perceived by Meriadoc Brandybuck when he first set eyes on Han Buri Han was originally recognized in Gondor, though at the time of the establishment of the Numenorean kingdom by Isildur, they survived only in the Druedon Forest and the Drui Fjour. We can thus, if we wish, elaborate the ancient legends of the coming of the Edain in the Silmarillion by the addition of the Druedain descending out of Ered Lindon into Ossiriand with the Halidin, the folk of Haleth. Another note says the historians in Gondor believed that the first men to cross the Anduin were indeed the Druedain. They came, it was believed, from lands south of Mordor, but before they reached the coast of the Haradwaith, they turned north into Ithilien, and eventually finding a way across the Anduin, probably near Caer Andros settled in the vales of the White Mountains and the wooded lands at their northern feet. They were a secretive people, suspicious of other kinds of men by whom they had been harried and persecuted as long as they could remember, and they had wandered west, seeking a land where they could be hidden and have peace.
- [77:55]
Alan
And the thing to keep in mind is this migration was early, early, early. I mean, the historians that you read about talking about them being the first men to cross the Anduin, we're talking about ancient times, like way back in the First Age. These were the very first men to come into the West. So Christopher begins this passage by telling us the Gondorians originally recognized those Pukhomed statues. Right. They get here, they see them here in the Dunharrow area, and they recognize them as being likenesses of the remnants of the Druath, reminding us, of course, that Calenardhon was at some point, at least, a populated region of Gondor long before it was ever given to Eorl the Young and the Eotheod as Rohan.
- [78:37]
Don Marshall
Yeah, they've built the fortress at what we now know as the Hornburg and had obviously had dealings with the Men of the Mountains enough so that Isildur could be betrayed by them. So imagine early Gondorians basically ascending that switchback road and seeing the statues and they realized that these figures were Druidyne.
- [78:55]
Alan
Yeah, I mean, remember, we talked about last week about their time in Numenor, and the last of them didn't leave until after Sauron had come back as prisoner. So, you know, the early Gondorians would be recently removed from that history and certainly have recognized them. So by the time Isildur had established his kingdom, the Druig only lived in two places. The first is the Drudon Forest where we encounter them in the Lord of the Rings. And the other is the one called Drewaid Jawar. And we'll talk about that more, actually, in the next section.
- [79:25]
Don Marshall
Christopher then tells us about the conclusions we might draw from all of this information about the Druedyne, essentially, that we can now add the Druedyne's arrival into Beleriand roughly around that same time as the coming of the other Edain coming down from Ered Lindon into Ossiriand with the people of Haleth.
- [79:46]
Alan
That's right. So that's how they get into Beleriand around the same time as the others. But we think they might have been the very first men to cross the Great River. Right. He, Christopher, that is, talks about the contents of another note from the professor explaining that the Druidyne, at least according to the Gondorian historians, try saying that three times fast, were the first men to cross the Great River. And they likely came from lands to the south. That's all we know. They came up through Italian, and they crossed over the river somewhere around Kairandros, settling in the vales on both sides, the north and the south side of the White Mountains, as well as the woods on the northern side. So if you think about the woods on the northern side, you're thinking about the Druidon Forest. You're thinking about Harrowdale and the valley where Helm's Deep lies on the north side and on the south side. You're talking about the valleys in the fiefs of Gondor.
- [80:37]
Don Marshall
That's right. The note gives us some very specific text about their interactions with the other peoples around here. They're very secretive and they're very suspicious
- [80:46]
Alan
of others for good reason, it would seem. They'd been attacked and faced hostility from others for as long as they could remember. They just wanted to be left alone. They just wanted a place where they could hide in peace and quiet. There's so much here. I mean, I know we're going to talk about this more and we're definitely going to talk about it more in the postscript as well. But it's. It's really sad when you realize they're the first men to cross the river and they're crossing the river because they just want to be left alone. They'd been harried and persecuted as long as they could remember. And, you know, we talked about this last week, sort of the similarity between them. Not similarity, but a parallel that could be drawn between them and the petty dwarves because we talked about how, you know, they'd been hunted just like the petty dwarves. And there's this. This question about, you know, sentience and are these people or are these beasts? Or these are people, man. Now, we don't know what the encounters were like in the early days. We.
- [81:50]
Don Marshall
We don't get any details.
- [81:51]
Alan
We don't get any details at all. But in either way, it's. It's certainly, you know, a tragedy that leads to them being over here, you know.
- [82:00]
Don Marshall
Yeah, yeah. The section ends, however. The section ends with Christopher pointing out that nowhere in these notes about the Druedyne and their, you know, their locations or their migrations in Middle Earth or suggesting anything regarding a connection with the Haladin in Beleriand.
- [82:18]
Alan
Which is interesting because, I mean, that's what this whole chapter is about, right? It starts with and explains that the thing that was interesting about the Halidin. Well, a lot of things, but one thing that was interesting was the fact that they had this other people living among them. But then Christopher says, look in these notes about the Druidyne, which talked about their. Their migration into Calenardhon and, and what is now, you know, Gondor as well, and then their migrations into Balerion, there's nothing here about the connection with the Haladin, but, you know, they're clearly connected
- [82:49]
Don Marshall
with the Haladin Yeah. I mean, there's. There's got to be something there at the very least, just given the time frames and everything, I think.
- [82:57]
Alan
Well, it was just one of those things where not every note is gonna have Tolkien explaining everything.
- [83:02]
Don Marshall
Right. Which, you know, I mean, he's got a lot of notes explaining a lot of things, but we can't.
- [83:08]
Alan
We can't in this one. He never. It never leads to them being connected to the holiday. And so I suppose the question, though, is if you were to finalize this story, which versions, what things would he include? Would he. Would he include. Like, how did they get embedded with the holiday? They certainly wouldn't have done that when they crossed over the Anduin in into, you know, into Gondor and Calenardhon. But they might have when they got into Beleriand. I mean, they must have, because maybe that was what made them such a unique people when they first came over to Beleriand.
- [83:38]
Don Marshall
Was it that uniqueness that made them stand apart, though?
- [83:41]
Alan
It was one of. Right, it was. There's one of their strange customs.
- [83:45]
Don Marshall
Yeah. Just. I mean, maybe that. That makes for a more ostracized kind of community in that, you know, you're already so different that you're not going to. To get or gain the acceptance of those that are around you, even if there is, you know, a kind of connection there. Yeah.
- [84:00]
Alan
I mean, you know, when we talked about this when we opened the chapter up last week, the first thing we read was the folk of Haleth were strangers to the other men. They spoke an alien language. They spoke Sindarin haltingly. They didn't adopt new things or customs, and they had these weird practices. And one of those weird practices was that they had this people living among them. So it would have. To me, it's like. Okay, I would have liked to have seen some sort of connection here, because I don't know if this is something he was thinking about getting rid of. I don't think so. But. But that's them in the earliest and earliest of days, and then it's them in the more recent days. Right. Because it's them in the Third Age living in, you know, in isolation in the Druidon Forest and in the Druith Yor.
- [84:44]
Don Marshall
Speaking of Druith Yawar and other really difficult things to pronounce. We've got a little bit more reading to do. Alan, would you like to take it away?
- [84:52]
Alan
I will. And I think this actually finishes us off. I know this wasn't a particularly long chapter, but I think we still have plenty to talk about. And folks, just a reminder, we're going to talk a lot more. In the postscript they said that they had always been there and had formerly lived also in the White Mountains. In ages past they had paid no heed to the great Dark One Morgoth, nor did they later ally themselves with Sauron, for they hated all invaders from the east. From the east, they said, had come the Tall Men who drove them from the White Mountains. And they were wicked at heart. Maybe even in the days of the War of the Ring, some of the Dru folk lingered in the mountains of Andrast, the western outlier of the White Mountains. But only the remnant in the woods of Anorien were known to the people people of Gondor. This region between Isen and Levnui was the Druith Jawar. And in yet another scrap of writing on this subject it is stated that the word jaw, meaning old in this name does not mean original, but former. The Pukulmen occupied the White Mountains on both sides in the First Age, when the occupation of the coastlands by the Numenoreans began. In the Second Age they survived in the mountains of the promontory of Andrast, which was never occupied by the Numenoreans. Another remnant survived at the eastern end of the range in Anorien. At the end of the Third Age. The latter, much reduced in numbers, were believed to be the only survivors. Hence the other region was called the Old Pukkul Wilderness. It remained a wilderness and was not inhabited by Men of Gondor or of Rohan, and was seldom entered by any of them. But Men of the Anfalas believed that some of the old Wild Men still lived there secretly. But in Rohan the identity of the statues of Dunharrow called Pukulmen with the wildmen of the Druidon Forest was not recognized. Neither was their humanity. Hence the reference by Han Brihan to persecution of the Wild Men by the Rohirrim in the past. Leave wild Men alone in the woods, and do not hunt them like beasts anymore. Since Han Brihan was attempting to use the common speech, he called his people wild Men, not without irony. But this was not, of course, their own name for themselves.
- [87:20]
Don Marshall
Now, keep in mind we skipped a chunk before we picked up the reading. In it, Christopher points us to what he calls an essay on the name of the rivers in Middle Earth, that
- [87:30]
Alan
is, of course, the rivers and beacon hills of Gondor, published in full in the Nature of Middle Earth, with the portion on the Guaflo discussed at length both in the episodes on Eldarion and Arendus that I did with Sara, as well as one of the episodes that I did with James on the history of Galadriel and Celeborn, where it shows up in Appendix D in the discussion of Lon Dire.
- [87:51]
Don Marshall
As for the connection with the Druedyne, the note says that when the native inhabitants of the region of Edenwaith fled because of the deforestation caused by the Numenoreans, they did not go south. That is, they specifically did not take refuge in the great promontory between Isen and Levnui that formed the north arm of the Bay of Belfalas.
- [88:13]
Alan
Why not? I mean, after all, that looks like a pretty big region. It's got a nice western coast. It's even got a promontory with southern coasts. Well, here's why they didn't go there because of the Pukalmen, who were a secret and fell people. They were described as being incredible hunters and they allegedly used poison darts, although you and I know that they had a strict ethic not to use those except against Orcs.
- [88:35]
Don Marshall
And that is where we picked up this reading with the Druedyne explaining that they had always been there. And, well, yeah, we're talking about around second age, 2900. And the druedine had crossed the Anduin early in the first Age, before men had ever come into Beleriand. That was around first age, 310. So we're talking over 3200 years.
- [88:58]
Alan
That's a long time. And we learned that they had paid no heed to Morgoth, and of course they'd never allied with Sauron.
- [89:06]
Don Marshall
Thank goodness for that. And in fact, they hated all invaders from the East. And that wasn't just the orcs, but also the men who had driven. Driven them from the mountains.
- [89:16]
Alan
And this is interesting because these men are described as tall and wicked at heart. And I wonder if there is any connection to the Fel folk of the east that we read about in the story of Tal Elmar.
- [89:27]
Don Marshall
Yeah, I think the text is speculating that some of them still remained in that part of Middle Earth as late as the War of the Ring.
- [89:35]
Alan
That's right, talking about not the Fel folk, but the Druidain. So next we go back to the region that we mentioned during the previous reading, and that's. That's the Drewaid Jaw, with Christopher introducing another scrap of writing which proves to be the last in this chapter. And in it we're told first that in this case the word Jaw, which usually means old, doesn't mean, in this case, original, but it means previous. Like, if I talk about my old house, Don, I'm not talking about where I first lived. I'm talking about where I just lived before this. Maybe I'm talking about one of my previous places that I've lived. Right. So my old house doesn't mean the very first one. It just means. Right, you know, one that used to be mine.
- [90:16]
Don Marshall
Exactly. And then we get that last text from Tolkien on the Druedyne, starting with the reminder that we mentioned earlier that they have lived on both sides, north and south of the White Mountains, all the way back in the First Age. And it was only as the Numenoreans began their expansion in the Second Age that they retreated into the promontory Andrast, which we learned was never occupied by those same Numenoreans.
- [90:43]
Alan
That's right. It was never considered part of the realm of Gondor either, for that matter. Though I believe, if I remember correctly, they did keep a coast guard in the area. And that's about it. It was never settled. It was never even part of the kingdom. Now, the other remnants of the Druedyne, the ones that weren't here in the promontory of Andrast, they're the Puklemen, as they're called here. They survived in the Droodon Forest, which is here described as the eastern end of the range.
- [91:08]
Don Marshall
But by the end of the Third Age, that group of the Droodon Forest was believed to be the only survivors giving the name Old Pukal Wilderness, or Druith Yaur to the region in the Andrast.
- [91:23]
Alan
Right. And even though the people of Gondor and Rohan didn't live there, and frankly, rarely went there, some men in that far west region of Anfalas were of the belief that some of the Druidae actually still lived there.
- [91:35]
Don Marshall
And we get a really cool mention of things in the footnote of this passage. Turns out the people of Anfalas, they're right.
- [91:43]
Alan
That's right. Christopher points to a marginal jotting, which there's some of the best stuff is in marginal jottings that explains that after the battles of the Fords of Isen, it was found that many Druidyne did indeed survive in the Druid Y, for they came forth from the caves where they dwelt to attack remnants of Solomon's forces that have been driven away southwards. I love that. Like, if you go back to the battles of the Fords of Eisen, right, and you End up with some of these Orcs being chased off south. They would have gone into the veils of the White Mountains, crossed over. They might have kind of gone south, southwest towards what? The. The Adorn, I think is the name of that river. And then made their way south. Well, guess who they run into. People who hate Orcs even more than the Rohirrim. The Druidon.
- [92:30]
Don Marshall
You're never gonna believe this. You're never gonna believe this.
- [92:34]
Alan
Yeah.
- [92:35]
Don Marshall
Love it.
- [92:35]
Alan
It's good stuff.
- [92:36]
Don Marshall
But while Gondor recognizes those statues in Dunharrow, the Men of Rohan did not. Not only did they not recognize the statues of the Wild Men or the Pugle Men, they also don't recognize them as human.
- [92:51]
Alan
Yeah, the text specifically says neither was their humanity recognized by Rohan. And, you know, we've talked before about the Elves and the petty Dwarves, and this is a very explicit example, isn't it?
- [93:03]
Don Marshall
It's one of those things that sort of is casually mentioned about how, oh, well, we just see them as less than human and we go, wait, hang on. We've just spent the last however many hours talking about, you know, these people and how they have their own culture and they have their own stories and magical powers and suddenly they're. They're deemed as potentially less than human. And it just. Yeah, it.
- [93:26]
Alan
By people who don't. In. In fairness, I'm not justifying what they've done, but who don't, of course, know those things that we know. I mean, the Rohirrim were not told, hey, these are the Druidyne. And they have this. You know, they used to live with the holiday and they develop this thing and they do this. And they're great trackers and they're great huntsmen and. And they do these alarm systems. Oh, no, we don't recognize them as human. We're going to kill him. Right. I mean, it's not like it's still wrong. It's. They're hunting them in ignorance.
- [93:53]
Don Marshall
Yeah.
- [93:54]
Alan
Rather than hunting them out of, like, some sort of hostility the way the Orcs would.
- [93:57]
Don Marshall
Can you imagine if they had fostered the alliance? Imagine if they had worked together and suddenly, oh, yeah. Han Buri Han and his, you know, army of however many he's got left
- [94:08]
Alan
show up and they do a little bit work together. Right. In the end of Return of the King, if it was. Weren't for the Wild Men. But that's. Yeah. Oh, yeah.
- [94:18]
Don Marshall
And then I think that's why Tolkien says Hanbury Han asks. They didn't leave Wild Men alone in the woods. And do not hunt them like beasts anymore. That's just.
- [94:27]
Alan
I mean, that's the fact that you even have to ask that question. Please don't hunt us anymore. The irony in this request is, of course, in Han's use of the name Wildman. Tolkien even explains that because he was speaking in Westeron, he referred to his people as Wild Men, but not without irony. Yeah, I mean, you could almost see Han, like, saying, don't hunt wild men anymore. You know, he has to sink to their level a little bit linguistically in order to say, please stop killing us.
- [95:00]
Don Marshall
Yeah.
- [95:01]
Alan
But you also wonder, how recently was that? Right. When was the last time the Rohirrim went on a hunt for the Druk? I'd like to think it wasn't in the last, you know, 50 years.
- [95:11]
Don Marshall
Yeah, I. I would say that this is sort of an older tradition that hadn't been really used for a while, but. Yeah, I just like to think that Rohan is.
- [95:20]
Alan
I mean, maybe not even the Rohira. Maybe this is going back to the whole idea of them being hunted by men in the First Age. It could be. I don't know. I mean, but the text does say their humanity wasn't recognized by Rohan. So, yeah, I. It. There's almost no way of really fairly reading the text without coming to the conclusion that at some point in the history of Rohan, which means only in the last 500 years, they've hunted these people.
- [95:46]
Don Marshall
Yeah. And it's. It's funny you mentioned he referred to his people as the Wild Men. Not without irony. As we talked about last week, their name for themselves is the Drougoo. Footnote here. Actually going in depth into the woes the. Of his name we talked about last week in the Philology Fair.
- [96:04]
Alan
That's right. The footnote also points out the actual Rohirric word because, of course, the Rohirric words are in the text. We read Old English because Old English is the language Tolkien chose to represent the Rohirric language. Their actual Rohirric word, which is translated for us as woes, is rog, plural Rogen. We also get an explanation of the Pukklemann term. That's a translation that represents Anglo Saxon Pukel, goblin or demon, a relative of the word pukka, from which Puck is derived from A Midsummer Night's Dream. Right, of course.
- [96:39]
Don Marshall
There we go.
- [96:40]
Alan
They only use that word puckel to describe the statues, not the actual people. And that may be because they didn't recognize the people as people, but, yeah, interesting stuff. Well, the Prancing Pony remained a wilderness and was not inhabited by Men of Gondor or. Or of Rohan. But Men of Bree believe that some of the old mailbags still live there secretly. What does Bartalin have in his bag for us?
- [97:05]
Don Marshall
Excellent question today, Alan. Right now we are speculating about what happens to the Druidain after the events of the Third Age. So we do know that Aragorn gives them the land and the territory within the White Mountains. So that is an established fact.
- [97:22]
Alan
The ones that live there for sure are given that land in perpetuity. No men are allowed to go through there. It belongs to them and them solely. I wonder if he ever discovers whether or not there's another remnant of them living in the peninsula over there in Andrast. If so, does he give them that land because he's giving the Druedyne in the Druedon Forest the land because they help. Helped save Gondor? Right. I don't know what he does with Andrast if he finds out they're there.
- [97:57]
Don Marshall
I imagine he would. I was about to say he's Aragorn. He seems like the kind of person that would.
- [98:03]
Alan
And Gondor doesn't really have any interest in that land. They've never declared it as part of their kingdom, even at the broadest reach of their borders.
- [98:11]
Don Marshall
They're big enough. They don't really need it.
- [98:13]
Alan
He doesn't even need to give them the land because it's not his to give to them. He just doesn't go and take it. There we go. There's the answer to that.
- [98:20]
Don Marshall
There we go.
- [98:21]
Alan
But what happens to them long term? That's a very good question. Because they're Men, not Elves, so they're not going to fade.
- [98:26]
Dr. Corey Olsen
Right.
- [98:27]
Alan
But at the same time, Hobbits are Men too, and they definitely sort of dwindle as we read about. Right?
- [98:34]
Don Marshall
Yeah. I think the idea is that they're just going to keep to themselves as they always have been. And I can't help but, but wonder if the. The Druidon, who, you know, are at least relatively close to Dunharrow or anywhere near where the mountains might be, are going to be taking back that area.
- [98:57]
Alan
Well, the region in Dunharrow is part of Rohan. So I don't know that Rohan's going to give them that land back. I'm not sure, but.
- [99:04]
Don Marshall
But not necessarily give them that land back but allow them to exist or at the very least expand if they wanted to.
- [99:10]
Alan
Expand. Yeah. So if the ones in Andrast wanted to move up or if the ones in the Druidon Forest. That'd be an interesting question. I mean, the. The Druidon Forest is part of an. Orion is therefore part of Gondor. It's therefore in Aragorn's authority to grant them that land that they live in. And to say, to recognize, like, hey, you lived here first before Gondor was established, so you have the right in a way. It's really a very interesting and apt way of approaching, like a First nations sort of thing. Right. You know, you were the original inhabitants of this land. This may be our kingdom, but you live within it. And we are not going to violate the sovereignty of your borders. You know, we recognize you as being legitimate holders of this land. So with the case of like, like the other vales in the White Mountains, they're not there anymore. Now, you could make the argument, oh, they're not there because they were hunted or driven off. But were they driven off by the Rohirrim or were they driven off by those tall men from the east that are no longer even in the picture?
- [100:14]
Don Marshall
I'm leaning a little bit more towards the being driven off by the tall men of the east just simply because that strikes me as who Tolkien would utilize as the quote, unquote, bad guy or the person that would.
- [100:26]
Alan
They also ran from the Numenoreans, in fairness. Right. I mean, that was. That was part of it too. The Second Age Numenoreans. So we're talking about the expansion that would have happened after the time of Aldarian, so which obviously also connects to the story of Tal Omar, which happened sometime between Aldarion and Sauron. Right. Because we know that these. The Numenoreans land on the shore. We know that they're faithful. They're not Kingsmen. We talked about this a little bit last week. So, yeah, I don't know. They may not be interested in coming back, but if they are, I suppose, you know, Theoden would. Would at least be willing to consider it. I don't know. It's a different story with the holiday. They lived among the Haladin for generations.
- [101:06]
Don Marshall
Yeah.
- [101:06]
Alan
And there was that mutuality we talked about last episode where, you know, there's this give and take and there's a mutuality to their relationship that doesn't exist with Rohirrim. I don't know if you forged that out of nothing.
- [101:20]
Don Marshall
I almost wonder if the give and take starts with Han Bori, Han and Eomer almost, or with Aragorn and Eomer having a conversation about Han Borehan. Just saying, like, hey, this is important that we keep our word to these people because they helped us.
- [101:37]
Alan
If these people are even. But if these people are even connected to Han Beri Khan and his people, like, if they haven't been communicated with in any way, if they're totally isolated, they may have no interest in doing anything other than protecting their own borders.
- [101:49]
Don Marshall
Yeah, right.
- [101:50]
Alan
I mean, if. If they've been there for. If they've been there since second age, numenor. So we're talking about probably 4,000 years. I'm not sure they want to go anywhere. You know, I mean, 3,000 years of the third age, plus some period of time in the second, so. But what happens to them after that? I. I mean, the truth is it's something we read about in the chapter last week about how. Well, this week we read about how they're not long lived. We also read last time about how they were a small people to begin with, living among a small people. Right. And by the time we get to the destruction of all the kingdoms of Beleriand and there are a remnant of the Druidain at the mouths of Sirion, the ones that go with the Edain to Numenor that we talked about, there's only. What did we read, like a handful of families, mostly consisting of women and children. So my hunch is that they probably die out sadly, that eventually.
- [102:44]
Don Marshall
That seems to be the case with a lot of Tolkien's themes. The elves begin to fade when the One Ring is destroyed. Their realms fade. Hobbits retreat back into their underground holes.
- [102:56]
Alan
The dwarves are nowhere to be seen anymore.
- [102:58]
Don Marshall
Exactly. They're hiding in their mountains. So it would make sense that. That the Druidon eventually fade in a way, back into the obscure sort of feyness of it all.
- [103:11]
Alan
Yeah, I think you talked about this last week. They're sort of Fae adjacent.
- [103:14]
Don Marshall
Yeah, that's right, I did.
- [103:14]
Dr. Corey Olsen
In many ways I did.
- [103:15]
Don Marshall
Yeah.
- [103:16]
Alan
They're very interesting people. Folks, thank you for joining us for another episode of the Prancing Pony podcast. This was a really fun chapter to go through, and I really encourage you to check out the postscript to these two episodes. I think we're going to get into some good conversations. But folks, please come back next week as the Lord of the Mark himself returns just in time for questions from our listeners in a live Q and A. But thank you again, Don, for an incredible run through the disaster of the Gladden Fields, which became a lot less disastrous with you along for the ride, as well as this chapter on the Druidyne.
- [103:48]
Don Marshall
Alan, it has been an absolute pleasure to be here. Once again, hats off to your fantastic Princess Pony Podcast community. It has been wonderful to be here. Yeah. Thank you again, Allan. And I also want to thank the members of Team PPP Editor Jordan Rannels Barleyman, Becca Davis, Social Media Manager Casey Hilsey, Event and Patreon community coordinator Katie McKenna, graphic artist Megan Collins, video editor Yonatan Lans and website guru Phil Dean.
- [104:17]
Alan
Please take a minute to check out the Prancing Pony podcast dot com. That's where you'll find show notes, outtakes, Prancing Pony Ponderings, and our fully revamped PPP merch store where you can get all sorts of cool PPP art, including the incredible chapter art that Megan's been doing for us for nearly four seasons now.
- [104:34]
Don Marshall
And keep in mind, we are all about the books here at the Prancing Pony Podcast, so be sure to also visit our library page. We try to make sure that any books we've mentioned on the show are linked here for your purchase. We do get a small amount of compensation when you make that purchase and we do thank you for that.
- [104:51]
Alan
Indeed we do. And we also want to thank our patrons at the Kirdan's contribution tier. I'll start with Demay in Alaska, Chad in Texas, Joseph in Michigan, Kathy from North Carolina, Brian in the uk, Jerry from Washington, Irwin from the Netherlands, Ben in Minnesota, Anthony in Texas, Zaksu in Illinois, Joshua in Massachusetts, Lucy, Lucy in Texas, Erica in Texas, James in Massachusetts, Ann in Kentucky and Sean in New Jersey.
- [105:16]
Don Marshall
There's also Mason in California, Maureen from Massachusetts, Olivia in London, Robert in Arizona, Nick in Wisconsin, Lewis in South Carolina, Thomas in Germany, Craig in California, Kevin in Massachusetts, Joe in Maryland, D, Scott in California, Jeffrey in Michigan, Paul in Colorado, David from from Connecticut and Teresa from Texas. Thank you all very much for the support indeed.
- [105:41]
Alan
Thank you.
- [105:42]
Don Marshall
Make sure you don't miss an episode of the Prancing Pody Podcast. Subscribe now through Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music or your favorite podcasting app.
- [105:51]
Alan
And one last thing. As always, don't forget to send your thoughts, comments and most of all your druidine watchstones. No cod please to Barliman at the Prancing Pony podcast.com Bar Lehman does have
- [106:03]
Don Marshall
a lot of mail to get through though, so we will try to get to yours just as soon as we are able.
- [106:08]
Alan
As always though, this has been far too short a time to spend among such excellent and admirable listeners and an excellent and admirable co host. But until next time, I am a
- [106:18]
Don Marshall
very grateful and thankful Don Marshall, the obscure Lord of the Rings Facts Guy and I am joined by the wonderful and effervescent man of the West, Alan. Thank you for having me. This has been an absolute pleasure. The Right window treatments change everything. Your sleep, your privacy, the way every room looks and feels. @blinds.com We've spent 30 years making it surprisingly simple to get exactly what your home needs. We've covered over 25 million windows and have 50,000 five star reviews to prove we deliver. Whether you DIY it or want a pro to handle everything from measure to install, we have you covered. Real Design professionals free samples zero pressure right now. Get up to 45% off site wide plus get a free professional measure@blinds.com rules and restrictions apply. There's a new way to Sweetgreen meet wraps handheld, hearty and made for life on the move. With bold, chef crafted flavors, fresh ingredients and over 40 grams of protein, they're built to satisfy without slowing you down. Try wraps today in the app or@order.sweetgreen.com available at all participating locations.