418 – Questions After Nightfall 35

Summary

The Prancing Pony Podcast – Episode 418: Questions After Nightfall 35

Release Date: June 21, 2026
Hosts: Alan Sisto & Sean Marchese
Guest Questioners: Kevin, Neil, Demay, Tom, Ana Maria, Jerry, John, Nakat, and others

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Episode Overview

This “Questions After Nightfall” (QAN) episode is the 35th iteration of the Prancing Pony Podcast’s signature patron Q&A format. Hosts Alan Sisto and returning co-host Sean Marchese (“the Lord of the Mark”) field a wide range of thoughtful, lore-rich, and occasionally humorous questions from their community. Questions span deeply personal reflections on Tolkienian parenting, the philosophy and philology behind Tolkien’s words, speculative alternate histories of Middle-earth, and playful skits, all seasoned with the hosts’ camaraderie, mutual respect, and trademark bad puns.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Tolkien and Parenting

[05:37–12:07]

• Q: How have Tolkien’s works or his family life influenced your parenting?
  • Alan: Finds inspiration in Tolkien’s letters to his sons and Father Christmas letters: “It’s really neat to see how he builds relationship with each of them... the Father Christmas letters are both an inspiration and a source of eternal guilt.” [06:31]
  • Sean: Admired the way Tolkien involved his children in his passions and life, especially through reading and discussing stories. He tries to “keep my kids involved in my passions and my life as much as possible.” [08:13]
  • Both: Emphasize values in Tolkien’s works—hope, fellowship, teamwork, role models—and using fiction to discuss difficult concepts like “consent” (Ale serves as a cautionary example).

Philology & Words in Tolkien

[12:16–17:52]

• Q: Are there still philological topics you’d like to explore?
  • Sean: Fascinated by Tolkien’s earliest language construction (Parma Eldalamberon, Quenya lexicon), tracing roots and inspirations from Gothic, Finnish, Welsh, etc.: “I like digging and finding roots of things.” [14:07]
  • Alan: Wants to dive deeper into Old English and Old Norse, motivated by Tolkien’s use of Old English for Rohirric and alliterative verse: “I would really like to learn a little bit more about Old English... the aesthetics are just gorgeous.” [15:35]
  • Both recommend resources (e.g., eldamo.org, Michael Drought’s materials, Signum University).

The Language of Faerie, Fantasy, Subcreation

[17:59–42:20]

• Q (Demay): How do Tolkien’s favorite literary concepts (faerie, fantasy, subcreation, secondary worlds, escapism, recovery, consolation) differ and relate?
  • Faerie: A state of existence/enchantment, not a simple locale with “fairies.” [~19:55–21:16]
  • Subcreation: The human act of making within God’s created order. “We make still by the law in which we’re made.” [22:55]
  • Fantasy: “The making or glimpsing of other worlds... the showing of other worlds, the making visible of other worlds.” [27:11]
  • Secondary Worlds/Belief: Must be internally consistent to foster believability and convey truth ("secondary belief"). [29:45]
  • Escapism, Recovery, Consolation:
    • Escape: Desiring freedom from the prison of mundane reality, not “escapism” as dereliction. [34:10]
    • Recovery: Seeing familiar things with renewed wonder, “clean windows” [35:30]
    • Consolation: The “eucatastrophe”—the sudden joy and hope in happy endings, even amidst sorrow: “It gives a fleeting glimpse of Joy, joy beyond the walls of the world, poignant as grief.” [38:37]
  • Connection Diagram: Faerie as the source, fantasy as the window, subcreation as the act of opening that window, secondary world as the experience, and the effects being recovery, escape, and consolation. [41:25]

Middle-earth as Spiritual/Personal Comfort

[47:42–57:37]

• Q (John): In times of deep personal struggle, which passages or moments from Tolkien’s legendarium do you hold onto?
  • Sean: “Sam and the Star” in Mordor, for hope: “The shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty forever beyond its reach.” [50:39]
  • Alan: Song of the Bard at the Field of Cormallen—where “tears are the very wine of blessedness”: “Pain and delight flow together, and tears are the very wine of blessedness.” [52:58]
  • Sean: The Houses of Healing scene with Éowyn and Faramir: love and joy give strength to face darkness. [54:23]

Alternative Histories & Character Speculation

[58:06–65:52]

• Q (Ana Maria): What if Miriel had chosen Ar-Pharazôn willingly, rather than being forced into marriage?
  • Sean & Alan speculate this would have worsened the Faithful-King’s Men split, increasing Miriel’s complicity in Númenor’s downfall. Possible parallels with Aldarion & Erendis. Raises interesting questions of agency, complicity, and repentance.

[65:59–76:23]

• Q (Tom): The “hero fantasy” temptation of Sam with the Ring—who are the models for Sam's imagined self as “Samwise the Strong”?
  • Through textual detective work, they identify Aragorn (“hero of the age, striding... with a flaming sword”) and Boromir (“armies flocking to his call”), showing Sam’s temptation runs parallel to both men’s, reflecting the differing paths of heroism and corruption. [73:35]
  • Memorable quote (Tom): “When Boromir was imagining armies flocking to his call, it was a bad thing.” [72:54]

[76:27–82:42]

• Q (Nakat): Will Eöl ever be released from Mandos? Would Aredhel take him back?
  • Categorical “NO.” Both Eöl and Maeglin are candidates for longest sentences in Mandos due to their wickedness—“worse father than Denethor.” [77:57–78:09] Aredhel is portrayed as wise for breaking free of this toxic bond; if/when she re-embodies, she will not seek him out: “Run away, sister, as fast as you can.” [80:06]
  • Fun, generational Middle-earth references to daytime talk shows (Jerry Springer, Phil Donahue).

Playful Banter & In-Jokes

[82:46–88:11]

• Q (Jerry): If the “Lord of the Mark” outranks the “Man of the West,” what role would Alan have in Sean’s court (and vice versa)?
  • Both respond sincerely: each would be a top advisor, highlighting their real-life partnership and respect. “Alan would be my seneschal... There's nobody I’d want to bounce ideas off of more than Alan Sisto.” [84:38]
  • Quick “Gríma” joke ably dodged.

History of Rohan, the Druedain, and Kalenardhon What-Ifs

[91:22–97:57]

• Q (Neil): Speculate on Kalenardhon’s fate if Eorl’s people had not settled there.
  • Likely Dunlending or Saruman domination, increased threat to Gondor, and possibly more numerous Druedain (less persecution by the Rohirrim). Recognition that even “the good guys” (Rohirrim) can have tragic impacts on indigenous populations.

Glorfindel’s Purpose in Middle-earth

[98:16–106:06]

• Q (Kevin): What was Glorfindel’s purpose post-resurrection? What did he do after the end?
  • Likely sent specifically to aid Elrond and Gil-galad against Sauron; played key roles (e.g., battle vs. Witch-King, River Bruinen). Following Sauron's defeat, probably returned to Valinor for well-earned rest. Contrast drawn with Gandalf's unique angelic mission.

Skit: Eärendil and Ar-Pharazôn

[106:54–111:41]

• Q (John): Improvise a comedic confrontation as Eärendil encounters Ar-Pharazôn before his doomed landing in Aman.
  • Lengthy, gleeful banter ensues: Eärendil delivers grandfatherly warnings, Ar-Pharazôn boasts of power, neither taking each other seriously until Eärendil bails to avoid the imminent apocalypse.
  • “You don’t want to be heard talking like that. You’re going to be in a lot of trouble. And unless you’ve got a flying boat like this one, you’re not going to be able to go up there and talk to him yourself, are you?” – Sean as Eärendil [108:29]

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• Alan on Tolkien’s family:
  “The Father Christmas letters are both an inspiration and a source of eternal guilt.” [07:02]

• Sean on Tolkien's fatherhood:
  “Try to keep my kids involved in my passions... get them excited about the things I like while they’re young, because I know when they’re teenagers, it’s going to be dad stuff and it’s not going to be cool anymore.” [08:22]

• Sean on Faerie:
  “Fairy is the place where all of these ideas that inspire fantasy... come from... where things are enchanted.” [19:55]

• Alan quoting Tolkien on consolation:
  “It gives a fleeting glimpse of Joy, joy beyond the walls of the world, poignant as grief.” [38:37]

• Sean on Sam’s enduring hope:
  “Any difficulty you’re going through is a passing thing... reminds us not only that the shadow is a passing thing... but also that I can keep on fighting... because it’s worth fighting for.” [51:00]

• On Eöl & Mandos:
  “If there’s anybody who’s going to be stuck in the Halls of Mandos longer than Fëanor it is Eöl and his son... Eöl made that monster [Maeglin].” [77:32–79:33]

• On Glorfindel’s fate:
  “He is a good guy to have on the chessboard, but not to send out with the Company... Elrond made it very clear, if we’re trying to stay under the radar, sending Glorfindel is a bad idea.” [106:11]

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• Parenting in Tolkien: 05:37–12:07
• Middle-earth Philology: 12:16–17:52
• Faerie, Fantasy, & Theory: 17:59–42:20
• Tolkien as Comfort: 47:42–57:37
• Alternative Numenor: 58:06–65:52
• Sam’s Hero Fantasy: 65:59–76:23
• Eöl and Mandos: 76:27–82:42
• Roles in an imaginary court: 82:46–88:11
• What-If for Rohan/Druedain: 91:22–97:57
• Glorfindel’s role: 98:16–106:06
• Skits: Eärendil meets Ar-Pharazôn: 106:54–111:41

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Final Notes & Tone

As ever, the Prancing Pony Podcast blends scholarly Tolkien discussion with a cozy, community-pub atmosphere. The episode’s tone is earnest, introspective, but never stuffy—punctuated with witty asides, mutual good-natured ribbing, and the occasional dip into outright hammy improv. Listeners come away not only with deeper insight into Tolkien’s world, but also into literature’s power to shape, comfort, and connect us.

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Transcript

[Alan Sisto]

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[Kevin]

Wow.

[Alan Sisto]

You need to relax. I need a knock on wood. Do we have. What is this table wood?

[Sean Marchese]

I think it's laminate.

[Kevin]

Okay.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that's good. That's close enough. Car selling without a catch. Sell your car today on Carvana. Pickup fees may apply. Good evening, little masters, and welcome to episode 418 of the Prancing Pony Podcast, as I am joined by a very special guest for the rest of season 10. Folks, please welcome back to the Prancing Pony Podcast, the lord of the mark himself, Sean Marchese.

[Sean Marchese]

I just saw a door open and I walked in. Is it okay if I'm here?

[Alan Sisto]

Are you holding the now hiring sign.

[Sean Marchese]

I just saw this. I was like, I don't know.

[Alan Sisto]

Could you fill out this application?

[Sean Marchese]

Sure. Fine. While I'm doing that, folks, pull up a bench in the common room and join us. Like the man said, I'm Sean Marchese, the Lord of the Mark, and I am here with the man of the West, Alan Sisto.

[Alan Sisto]

And folks, before Sean and I dive into the chapter on the Istari to take a closer look at some other old guys, it's time to ask you to help us welcome a few of our patrons to join us for our 35th quarterly questions after Nightfall.

[Sean Marchese]

And I am so excited to be back for this. Always one of my favorite episodes on the ppp. So much fun and I'm really glad to be here. But folks, no matter whether you came to Middle Earth through the books, the films, the TV show, or something else, you, each and every one of you is welcome here in our common room. The Prancing Pony Podcast continues in our 10th season of Reading and talking our way through Middle Earth with conversations, digressions, and even speculations.

[Alan Sisto]

Not to mention a few puns and bad jokes here and there. But our purpose is to dive deep into the lore to discuss the story, our favorite characters and themes, Tolkien's inspirations, and a whole lot more.

[Sean Marchese]

And while we take the work seriously, the same can't be said about ourselves. We're just a couple of old friends chatting at the pub, and we're really glad you've joined us.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm sure you'd be glad you joined as well, especially since tonight it isn't just the two of us chatting at the pub. Once a quarter we take a break from our read through and we welcome a few of our patrons to join us here in the common room and bring along some of their very best questions.

[Sean Marchese]

And we have no idea what our listeners are going to ask us. So just as we've done many times before, we're simply going to do the best job we can in answering their questions with whatever resources we have on our show shelves.

[Alan Sisto]

Your mileage may vary. Exceptions apply. We have make no promises. What's that line? Whenever you're listening to like a stockbroker, prior performance is no indication of future whatever. Yeah, yeah, that's definitely the truth here. Anyway, it's a lot of fun. And as with previous Question After Nightfall episodes, aside from possible edits for nervous coughs and time spent flipping through pages while we search desperately for an answer, we will be presenting this as it was recorded live. So everything you hear in this show will have been recorded during the sess.

[Sean Marchese]

And if you'd like to be on one of these with us sometime, well, then join the Fellowship of the [e-mail] prancingponypod questions after nightfall episodes are recorded once every quarter, and patrons at the Elronds Honorarium tier and higher are invited to join.

[Alan Sisto]

It's just one of the ways that we show our appreciation to those who support the show, giving them the opportunity to join us, make us laugh, make us think, and from time to time, or maybe every time, embarrass us. So let's go ahead and get started. Sean, who is up first this time?

[Sean Marchese]

Okay, our first question today is going to be from Kevin.

[Alan Sisto]

Kevin, welcome.

[Kevin]

Well, thank you for not kicking me out. I don't know if you saw, but I snuck in through the door behind Sean and it didn't close fast enough.

[Sean Marchese]

I thought I felt something tickling the back of my legs.

[Alan Sisto]

Is it like jumping the subway thing, like. Yeah, yeah, just a little bit.

[Sean Marchese]

All right.

[Kevin]

Anyway, so as I'm getting close to my 30th in the next couple years, and I've noticed a lot of my peers have entered their phases of life where they're starting families and being close to that point myself, where my partner and I have discussed it in the future as. Seeing as both of you as parents yourselves, I was wondering if there's anything in particular from Tolkien that you have taken into your parenting styles or that has you feel made you better parents.

[Alan Sisto]

This is not the time to break out Gandalf's fool of a Toque line. I'm tempted often, but I don't.

[Sean Marchese]

I basically just read what Denethor does and do the opposite of that.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a pretty good start right there. Yeah. This is the what not to do. And hey, look, as long as you don't do this, you're probably going to be all right.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, actually, one of the things that I. That I would say is I've looked at the letters from Tolkien to his kids in the volume of the letters, and it's really neat to see as his kids grow up and go to college or go off to train in the Royal Air Force, you know, all the things that they do. It's really neat to see how he builds relationship with each of them. So that's one of the things I've done. And then obviously, the Father Christmas letters are both an inspiration and a source of eternal guilt.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, you can never top Tolkien.

[Alan Sisto]

Talk about living up to it.

[Sean Marchese]

The holiday cheer Thing. I mean, Elf on a Shelf is nothing compared to what Tolkien did.

[Alan Sisto]

That is fair. That is definitely fair. But, yeah, those are the two things that come to my mind.

[Sean Marchese]

Sean, what about you, man? That is such a good question.

[Alan Sisto]

It is, isn't it? I know. It made me really think.

[Sean Marchese]

No, I think, Alan, that's actually a really good answer, because I do think that if you go beyond just the basic fiction works, there's a lot of really cool stuff there where Tolkien kind of shows the father he was. And that's really inspiring. I think, for me, the biggest thing that I've learned about Tolkien and sort of the way he was with his children is just the way he involved them in his life. You know, there was obviously, we know the Hobbit was something that he read to his boys as they were very young. And, you know, we get little things like the way that Christopher would, like, help, you know, help run continuity from one reading session to the next. You know, he was like. He was like the script supervisor running around the set like, this wasn't here last time. And I love that. And then, you know, and Christopher especially. But, you know, I think all of his kids, he did involve them in his life. They were part of his literary life, and I really love that. And so I think what I've taken away from that is just trying to keep my kids involved in my passions and my life as much as possible. I think there are a lot of. There's a lot of different ways to be a parent, but for me, I really like to be very involved with my kids, and I find that helping get them on board with the things that I love is a great way to keep them a part of my life. And I've been doing that for so long now that whether it's Tolkien or D and D or my favorite movies or my favorite bands, I've just tried to keep my kids interested in the stuff that I'm interested. I try to get them excited about the things I like while they're young, because I know when they're teenagers, it's going to be dad stuff and it's not going to be cool anymore. Yeah. So I've been trying to do as much of that as possible because I. I just. I want to. I just want to share that with them and. And help make that part of my life, help keep them part of my life by. By involving them in that. So I think that's what it is. And that includes reading Tolkien to them and talking about stories. So, yeah, I think that's my answer.

[Alan Sisto]

Promoting what we do on the show, right? Like teaching them that reading aloud makes the experience better. Like that's one thing, you know, but that's true of a lot of writers. So I've encouraged my kids to read out loud. That really is part of the experience. And that's sort of a Tolkien inspired thing. It's tough because I think, I'm not saying you were specifically asking this, Kevin, but I think the question sort of asks, is there anything lore wise that you've used, you know, that you felt like speaks to you as a parent? And there, it's just, I think those themes that we have seen Sean, throughout, you know, hope. Hope is, is always there. Teamwork, fellowship, you know, coming together to solve the things. All those things that we love about the legendarium are the same life principles that we want our kids to live by.

[Kevin]

You know, I was going to say they have plenty of good role models to choose from, at least in the legendarium for both men, women and in between, you know, you can't really go wrong with the cast there.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, I agree with that 100%. And I think that is another thing that I have tried to instill in them as they've discovered Tolkien's works and you know, they're still working their way through Lord of the Rings. They both have started it. I bought them their own little set of mass market paperbacks.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, I love that.

[Sean Marchese]

And as they're reading those books and they've seen the movies, the Peter Jackson movies a bunch of times and we've read the Hobbit together. But yeah, as you know, as they're going through those stories, I just, I try to talk about those characters and just try to like find those little teachable moments. So, yeah, I think it's true. There's a lot of great role models there and I think just bringing them to that work and teaching them to find those role models in fiction, whatever it is, you know, some other book that they like someday, plenty of good

[Alan Sisto]

role models like Feanor Ale.

[Sean Marchese]

Oh, that's Ale would have been another good one. Yeah, do the opposite.

[Alan Sisto]

The opposite.

[Sean Marchese]

Whatever Al did.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, seriously, you know, my son's 14, so at some point soon I'm going to have to talk to him about really grown up concepts like consent. Ale not the example to follow.

[Sean Marchese]

No, no, but you know what, you can read that chapter, but you can read that chapter and like, you know, hey, what?

[Alan Sisto]

Oh yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

What did he do wrong here? I mean, everything. But what did he. But what specifically? Or Maybe. Did he do anything right? No, but.

[Alan Sisto]

But what did he do wrong?

[Sean Marchese]

You know, I think.

[Kevin]

Yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, I think that's. That's a. That's a fun conversation. That is.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a good question, though. Thank you, Kevin. I really enjoy it.

[Sean Marchese]

But it's a good conversation.

[Alan Sisto]

That might be a stretch of the definition of the word fun. All right, Sean, who do we have up next?

[Sean Marchese]

All right, our next question comes to us from Neil.

[Alan Sisto]

Neil, Mike Vannon, Alan West. Who?

[Kevin]

Hal.

[Alan Sisto]

Sean, it is good to have you join us. Neil, I suspect that, like myself, many in the PPP community had never heard the term philology until you first opened the doors of the Prancing Pony. So, in honour of the philology affairs, are there any aspects of Middle Earth philology that you still want to explore, potentially for future episodes? And, Alan, that's a question for you as well, because of the Wednesdays that we love on the ttt. Yeah, I mean, really, that whole idea of the word nerd Wednesdays was just inspired by all the work Sean did for those years. It was sort of like an homage, like, well, let me try. And now I've floundered enough, Sean, I'm going to throw this one to you first while I'm pondering that one, because there are a lot. But my word nerd levels have increased, but they're still below yours.

[Sean Marchese]

There's so much. The thing that I've been really excited about lately is going back and reading, like, those early issues of Parma El Dalambaran, many of which Christopher Gilson is in the process of republishing. You know, some of these have been out of print and he's putting them back in print. And so check that website regularly, because there's. There's always new issues coming into print. But if you look at some of the really old materials there, like, I've been going through the Quenya lexicon a lot recently, which is published in Parma 12. And this is from 1915, 1916. And I mean, this is like the earliest stages of Tolkien's linguistic development in the Quenya language. And just going back and thinking about what his inspirations were again, you know, Christopher Gilson, as the editor of this stuff, is sort of the authority, and he's done some. He's written some papers on this, sort of like tracing the early, early development, tracing the early inspirations and how Tolkien was bringing in influences from, you know, la or obviously Gothic. And, you know, and of course, we know Finnish and. And we know Welsh was a big inspiration for. For the Noldoran language, which became Sindarin. That's the stuff that I'm getting really interested in is like, what was Tolkien thinking as he was developing these languages early on? That's just super fun to me because a bit like Smeagol, I like digging and like going and finding the roots of things. And I think that's what attracted me to philology and. And doing etymological study in the first place. I just love the roots of words and the histories of languages. And with Tolkien going back to his language development, we actually have records of his language development at various stages, which is something we don't get with a real world language. It's pretty incredible how he was thinking about this. And I love that kind of stuff. As with so many things Tolkien did, it's amazing that one person did this entire mythology or these, you know, these whole languages. And I know they're not whole languages. There's holes in them, there's gaps in them. But the fact that he did so much of this and he lived a life where he was able to create these languages and you can track the development of a language from its origin to the later versions that we see in Lord of the Rings, that's super exciting to me. And so that's what I've really been interested in from a philological perspective is going back and tracing those roots.

[Alan Sisto]

That is good stuff. I know I've been enjoying doing the word nerd Wednesdays and having to do this every week. Diving into resources like Vineyard Tengwar or like elvish data model eldamo.org has been a lifesaver for me in that regard. And it is so interesting to see Tolkien's internal development of a language like how Quenya then morphs and, you know, things like that, but then also how he himself, from the outside, changed it and made substantive changes to the way the sounds have developed. I think for me, as fascinating as that is, I think the area that I'm most drawn to is maybe a little, slightly less philological and more just flat out linguistics. I would really like to learn a little bit more about Old English. I'd like to learn how to read it out loud. I'd like to. I've been the Rohirric stuff, you know, and it goes back, Sean, to like, my love of a literative verse and the way that those words sound. And I guess it's really comes down to Tolkien's choice to use Old English as being representative of Rohirric has drawn me to that, that. That language. And I'd like To learn a little bit more of that. Maybe even a little. Learn a bit of. Of Old Norse as well. So maybe I'll end up at a space program at Signum soon just to. Just to learn a little bit about that stuff.

[Sean Marchese]

I'm not.

[Alan Sisto]

I don't have a head for languages, as you know. I have to work hard at it. But I love the sounds of those languages. And to me, that's. That's really appeal, as you know. It's why I like reading Quenya out loud is just the aesthetics of it are just gorgeous.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, I think that's a great answer. And what's cool about Old English is that there is a lot of material out there available for you to study it. Yeah, Signum's got some programs out there. Michael Drought's done audio lessons on this. He's probably a little bit busy right now for private lessons, but there's a lot of stuff out there and. And that's. And that would be a really, really cool one that would kind of keep on giving. You could then go back and read

[Alan Sisto]

Beowulf and, you know, the Wanderer and. Yeah, yeah, be fantastic. Great question. A lot of fun. Yeah. All right, Sean, I think we've got time for at least one more before we take our first break.

[Sean Marchese]

Okay, well, our third question today is going to come from Demay.

[Alan Sisto]

Demay, welcome back.

[Sean Marchese]

Hi, Demay. Good to see you again.

[Alan Sisto]

Hello, everyone. This is. It's not actually a word nerd question, but I was poking around in a book and said to myself, these words keep coming up and Tolkien used them mainly because he liked words, but he had a vocabulary as an author, not just as a philologist.

[Sean Marchese]

But

[Alan Sisto]

all of these non legendarium words keep popping up and I thought maybe I'd toss them out and see what you guys thought about them. Is there a difference in them? Are they the same? Why so many words for the same thing if they are the same? That's a good question. And so I have a list here. Fairy, fantasy, sub creation, secondary worlds, and also escapism, recovery and consolation, which are actually three of my favorite things. I love those things. I was just wanting some input on what do you guys think about these words and how he uses them. Do they really impact the legendarium? Are they even necessary? I like this question a lot. I think forcing us to really think about these concepts. And for those of you who might not be familiar with all of them, these all feature in on fairy Stories. So if you go back to episode one of the PPP where we look at that. Or if you just grab that 19. Was it 39 essay?

[Sean Marchese]

I think it was 1939 lecture. 1947.

[Alan Sisto]

That's what it was, 1930. I keep thinking 39 because I remember it was, like, right after the Hobbit.

[Sean Marchese]

So he.

[Alan Sisto]

You could tell that I think, writing the Hobbit, there were some, as he might write later in letters, some regrets, you know, that he thought, you know, now that I think about it, right. And these are some things he could have done a little bit more of. And we sit. Then we see these concepts reflected, you know, more fully and more fleshed out in the Lord of the Rings. You want to start first with Faerie, and I'll take the next one after that. Or do we want to try to Both?

[Sean Marchese]

Sure. And I'm going to try and do this without having the text of On Faerie Stories in front of me and just go from memory and probably embarrass myself. I think fairy's a good place to start, because faerie for Tolkien is. It's a state of being. It's almost a place, but I don't think it's really a physical place. It's more of a mode of existence rather than like an actual physical place. And it is the place where all of these ideas that inspire fantasy and people come from. You know, when Tolkien is talking about fairy stories in this lecture essay, he makes a point to say fairy stories are not stories about fairies, as in, you know, little winged Tinkerbells running, you know, flying around, not running around. They're not the little creatures. Fairy stories are stories about faerie, which he spells F, A, E, R, I, E with a little umlaut over the E. And he's talking about a place, a mode of being, where things are enchanted. And when we read fantasy, or when writers write fantasy, they're sort of tapping into fairy. So I think fairy is a good place to start because I think fairy is the source of all of the other things that we're going to talk about in this list of words. Anything to add, Alan?

[Alan Sisto]

No, you really nailed it. I mean, I actually pulled up the text just to see, you know, if I could pull something useful. But you nailed it. Fairy is. Sure, that may be where the fairy creatures live, but it's also where, you know, giants and dragons live. But it also holds the things that we know from the real world. Things like the sun and the moon and the sky and food and water and all of these things. But they're all. All enchanted, and that's the difference. So it's A really good way of explaining it and I think a great starting point. I want to move, if I can, to sub creation because I think that might be the only word on the list that isn't like. I mean, it is still directly connected to fairy, but it's externally connected, whereas everything else is almost a consequence of fairy or a result of being in fairy. Whereas sub creation is what it takes to. To get there. Sub creation is Tolkien's way of explaining the act of what most of us would just call creation. Well, what am I going to do? I'm going to create something. Right. I'm a content creator. No, you're a content sub creator. Everything you do is a sub creation in Tolkien's mind. Because we sub create because there's only one creator and therefore we're sub creating. So that's his concept there. And it's an interesting. Oh, this is going to tie into secondary worlds. I don't want to go that far yet. I want to do one thing at a time. But the idea is that, that we create because it's in our very nature. Like, we cannot help but to create. And it's an expression of our nature as created beings that we do this as well. And I feel like that's a starting point.

[Kevin]

But.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

What's the line from Mythopia? We make still by the law in which we're made.

[Alan Sisto]

Correct. We make still by the law in which we're made.

[Sean Marchese]

And so the idea is that because we are created, our desire, our natural tendency is to create.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, it's our nature.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah. And I think if folks have trouble understanding kind of what Tolkien means by this, I think you can do no better than to go to chapter two of the Silmarillion and the story of Aule making the Dwarves and the way that he is making in imitation of his Maker, you know, and he is. He is trying to do this because Iluvatar has created Aule with this. With this spirit that he just wants to create. So he goes out and creates the Dwarves. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

He even explains it that way when he's called on the carpet, like, okay, this was a mistake, but it came from a place of wanting to reflect what you've put into me. You know, it's really good stuff. Tom, feel free to jump in here. You've got something you want to throw in?

[Tom]

Yes, I just. You're talking. You're talking about, you know, creation as being something that only the Creator can do. I learned something the other night that I just thought was really, really cool. In chapter one of the book of Genesis, the word that's used of God, when God creates the world, that verb, which the root of is bara b a r A, that word is only used of God.

[Sean Marchese]

Wow.

[Tom]

There are other words for make and things like that, but that word is just like. Because I read that, I was like, really? Wow. Of course God has his own verbs. Right?

[Sean Marchese]

Way to put it. I love that.

[Tom]

It just seems just absolutely cool. And I was able to find the same thing in a couple of different places because it was like, wow, this is true.

[Alan Sisto]

This, this. Yeah, I'd have to verify that. Right? That's. I want to do that, too. That is intriguing. And it certainly fits right in with. With Tolkien's idea that, look, what we're doing is an act of sub creation. It cannot itself be creation. And he even, even sub creates the same thing. Right. He sub creates a universe in which you have a creator who is the only one capable of bringing things into existence. The others might be able to sing about them and sing that music and create the vision of it, but the reality of it, that ea can only be done through iluvatar. And then you have Aule, like Sean said, making in sort of this. Not mockery, but the way a kid would do what his dad does. Kind of coming back to that first question, right? We want our kids to like what we like. Well, that's kind of natural. And that's what Tolkien's talking about with sub creation. Yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, that's great. I love that. Thank you, Tom.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that's really some cool insight. All right. I know I went out of order, but, Sean, how do we want to talk about fantasy briefly?

[Sean Marchese]

While we were talking about sub creation, I pulled up my copy of On Fairy Stories because I did want to make sure to go back to Tolkien's words a little bit on this. Now, on the surface, fantasy can just be a word for the type of stories that all of us like to read. Right?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

And I say that, as you know, we are fantas of books like Lord of the Rings. We are fans of fantasy books. And so on the surface, it is that. And I think in some ways, the way Tolkien uses the word fantasy and on fairy stories, I think in some ways it is a synonym of fairy story or fairy tale. But I think there is a specific nuance in the word fantasy, and there's a clue to it. When Tolkien says and on fairy stories, he says fantasy is the making or glimpsing of other worlds. And I want to focus on. I know, we were just now talking about making. I want to focus on glimpsing because if you look at the etymology of the word fantasy, fantasy, and I'm stealing my own thunder here because I want to write a substack post about this someday, maybe by the time this is

[Alan Sisto]

out, it'll already exist.

[Sean Marchese]

Maybe. So I don't know. No guarantees, but the word fantasy actually comes from an ancient Greek verb which means to show or to make seen, to make visible. And that's why I think that idea of glimpsing other worlds. Fantasy is the glimpsing of other worlds. Fantasy is the showing of other worlds. It's the making visible of other worlds. And I think that's really key because for Tolkien, these other worlds do exist at some level of the imagination. And when we engage in fantasy, when we read fantasy or when we write fantasy or we are opening a window to these other worlds and we're seeing these other worlds, that's the way I interpret that. And so there's. Why that's important is because there's truth there. Just because these other worlds. And I'm going to get into secondary worlds here a little bit. But just because these other worlds don't exist in the same way that our primary world exists, doesn't mean that there's no truth there. Again, the bit from Mythopia, you know, he responded to C.S. lewis.

[Kevin]

Yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

You know, lies breathe through silver. Was C.S. lewis's claim of myth. No. There is truth to these other worlds, and fantasy is a way of showing them of fino finding these other worlds.

[Alan Sisto]

That is fascinating. I didn't know that route and of course you would. I'm not surprised. I. I think just to follow up on that, for me, fantasy is often more easily defined by what it's not. And Tolkien does a really good job in, on fairy stories of describing all the things that we might think that are fantasy but aren't.

[Sean Marchese]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

And he talks through all the different sort of genres of literature that you might think are sort of fantasy adjacent, but they're not. So that's a really good place to start too, if you're trying to figure out, okay, well, I get this nice definition of what it is, but does that fit this or does that fit this? And he, you know, really does a good job there.

[Sean Marchese]

I think the problem with, with, with the definition of fantasy that Tolkien sets forth is that. And I'm not going to name specific titles, but there's a lot of stuff out there that's fantasy literature that really is not Fantasy, the way Tolkien, not the way he defines it, the way Tolkien defined it. I'm fine with that. I still like a lot of stuff that Tolkien probably wouldn't consider fantasy because it, it doesn't, you know, it doesn't reveal that kind of truth. But yeah, for Tolkien, I think it's really important to recognize that fantasy was more than just making up worlds of elves and swords and dragons.

[Alan Sisto]

It was a lot more than that.

[Sean Marchese]

It was glimpsing some kind of truth.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. And I think that's why for him, the secondary worlds moving into that next word were why they had to be made so real. The idea was that if you're going to convey a truth in this fantasy, then it has to be. It has to be in a world that's believable. Right. It has to be grounded and internally consistent. Right. And that's one of the big ideas that he talks about when it comes to secondary worlds, is that they have to create this internal consistency of reality to give you an idea of what he's talking about. In that On Fairy Story essay, Tolkien writes that anyone inheriting the fantastic device of human language can say, the green sun. Many can then imagine or picture it. But that's not enough, though it may already be a more potent thing than. And he goes on to describe a couple examples. His point is to make a secondary world inside which the green sun will be credible, commanding secondary belief. And I think we really have to connect secondary belief to secondary worlds. And we're trying to do that here will probably require labor and thought and will certainly demand a special skill, a kind of elvish craft. Few attempt such difficult tasks, but when they are attempted and in any degree accomplished, then we have a rare achievement of art, indeed narrative art, story making in its primary and most potent mode. And that's the thing we can talk about, a world in which all the things that happen in the Lord of the Rings happen. That there are three foot tall people with hair on their feet and there are dwarves that live in the mountains and you've got these essentially immortal elves, got wizards running around doing magic or what we might think of as magic. But to make that world believable enough to then convey truths within it, you have to create it so that it's internally consistent and that you can believe that that exists in that world. Yeah. And then that's of course, absolutely inextricably tied with conveying those truths. So secondary belief in secondary world, it's essentially the same as primary belief in our own world. It's why Tolkien expresses the challenge about adaptations because he's talking about, you're projecting this onto a screen or onto a stage. You're asking for the reader or the viewer, in this case, to have a tertiary belief. And the problem there is that once that spell is broken, they're out of the secondary world and back into the primary world.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah. Because you're not creating that world in your imagination as a reader anymore.

[Alan Sisto]

No. You're creating a vision of it.

[Sean Marchese]

You're observing somebody else's idea of it, and that's. That can be good, that can be great.

[Alan Sisto]

But when it fails, it takes you right back out to the primary.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And it's. It's basically a. A secondary world within the secondary world, and it's just much, much harder to sustain. He even says that to make such a thing may not be impossible. I've never seen it done with success.

[Sean Marchese]

So, I mean, to be fair, there's a lot that's possible now with the cinematic arts today.

[Alan Sisto]

Correct.

[Sean Marchese]

That were not possible in the 1930s, when Tolkien was thinking about, most assuredly, stagecraft and black and white silent films. But it's still somebody else's vision. It's still somebody else's idea of what this world looks like and what this world sounds like. And I think no matter how good the special effects get, no matter how believable Middle Earth is on screen, on the biggest screen possible, it's different. It's not a world that you enter. There is still this screen keeping you from it.

[Alan Sisto]

That's absolutely right. It's good stuff. I mean, like we said, you and I have talked about how much we love Jaxson's adaptations to the Lord of the Rings. They're fantastic. But the minute something takes you out, it takes you all the way out. And that can be a real problem. Well, I guess let's get into escape, recovery, and consolations. Sean, this is a really great question.

[Sean Marchese]

I think it is a great question. Thank you, Duma. I think escape is. Even though we usually order them as recovery, escape and consolation, I think it's good to tackle escape first, because escape is simply just the desire to get away from the real world sometimes. And, you know, of course, we've talked about this since, literally episode one of this show, Alan.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, we have.

[Sean Marchese]

Tolkien says that's okay. There's nothing wrong with wanting to escape. We use escapist as a derogatory term frequently these days. But for Tolkien, he's saying it's okay to want to escape. We are prisoners in this world, and it's okay to dream about something better, dream about something different. And I know it sounds kind of bleak. I don't think he really meant it that way. I think he just meant that the reality is we're. We're stuck here. It's okay to dream of something better. It's okay to aspire.

[Alan Sisto]

And I love the way he puts it. It's like you said, the prison thing. The analogy is brilliant. He talks about, why would a prisoner not dream of the world outside of his prison cell.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, right. Yeah. And again, he contrasts that with. It's not the flight of the deserter. Right. It's not. You have a duty to be here, and you're running away from that. Which I think is how we often think of escapism today.

[Alan Sisto]

And I think that's one of the reasons why he doesn't really use the word escapism or escapist. He just talk about escape. In fact, he. When he puts escapist in his text, he puts it in. In quotes, as though he's sort of like, you know, scare quotes like, this isn't really what. It's different than escape. But it's so hard to make that distinction for folks who've never really read the essay or thought it through or. Or who just look down on any attempt to escape.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah. What about recovery?

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, recovery. Seeing the world as it really is. Right. Seeing things. Seeing. Regaining a clear view. Not seeing things. It's about getting out of the trite, getting out of the routine and seeing the world that you're in with fresh eyes, with a fresh perspective. Renewed.

[Sean Marchese]

Seeing things as we're meant to see them, I believe is how Tolkien puts it, which I think is very compelling. There's a purity to recovery. Yeah. Tom has just posted in the chat, clean windows. Recovery of a clear view. It's something I always tell my son to do. Clean your glasses. He's like, but I can see fine, dad. I'm like, no, dude, you cannot clean your glasses. See the world as you were meant to see it. I think that's what recovery does for us. It helps us see the world as we're meant to see it.

[Alan Sisto]

And I think it helps us to see. Kind of along those lines about seeing things that are the way we're supposed to see them. I really like this quote. He talks about the things that have become familiar to us, things that we have appropriated. He puts it. He says, we say we know them. They have become like the things which once attracted us by their glitter or their color or their shape. And we laid hands on them and then locked them in our hoard, acquired them and acquiring ceased to look at them. And it's very easy for us in this very busy world and very full world that we all live in, to think that we know this experience or this thing or whatever it might be. But seeing it anew, seeing it fresh, can make all the difference. And that's what recovery is, to recover that clear, clean sight. So consolation, Tolkien would say that is the single most required element in a genuine fantasy story is this notion of consolation, which for him is a eucatastrophe, isn't it, Sean?

[Sean Marchese]

The consolation of the happy ending. And not just the happy ending, but like you said, the eucatastrophe, that improbable happy ending that impossible to count on, and you can't count on it recurring. You never expected this. It's Gollum biting Frodo's finger off at the moment of Frodo's failure. It's the Rohirrim showing up at the

[Alan Sisto]

Pelennor Fields, right, as the Witch King is going through the gate.

[Sean Marchese]

As the Witch King is going through the gate. Yeah, that's the stuff.

[Alan Sisto]

That Aragorn sailing up with the Black Fleet and revealing the standard of Elendil. And all of a sudden, Eomer, everything changes, right? You're thinking, oh, man, we're all going to die. Let me just make my heroic last stand. Oh, wait a minute. And I mean, he throws his sword up in the air, he's so filled with joy, the EU catastrophe.

[Sean Marchese]

And for Tolkien, this is a theological thing.

[Alan Sisto]

It is.

[Sean Marchese]

This is the operation of providence in the world. And so in that sense, reading fantasy for Tolkien is kind of a devotional act. Certainly, writing fantasy for Tolkien was a devotional act.

[Alan Sisto]

Very much so. In fact, this quote that I'm going to read sort of obliquely references that. It doesn't make it direct, it doesn't make it obvious. But I think it's clear here, especially once you know Tolkien a little bit talking about eucatastrophe. It does not deny the existence of dis. Catastrophe, of sorrow and failure. The possibility of these is necessary to the joy of deliverance. It denies, in the face of much evidence, if you will, universal final defeat. And insofar is Evangelium, which is simply good news. And he's, I think, right there, very directly referencing the Gospel. He says that it gives a fleeting glimpse. There's that word of joy. But he uses a capital J there. And Tolkien never capitalizes accidentally. It gives a fleeting glimpse of Joy, joy beyond the walls of the world. Poignant as grief. I mean, there's a reason that I quote it. It's because I can't say the things as well as he can. What an amazing phrase that is. What a definition. It's, it's. It brings you to tears almost just reading it. It's so good.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

So, yeah. Oh, what a great question. My goodness. To me. Thank you.

[Sean Marchese]

And I'm not ready to be done with it.

[Alan Sisto]

No, no.

[Sean Marchese]

Because. Because the Mai started by asking about all these words and, you know, how are they related? How are they different? I'm not sure if Demay. If you asked how are they related, you kind of asked, how are they different? Let's talk about the nuances. I want to. Actually, now that we've defined all of these words, I want to connect them. I want to draw philologically. No, no, that would take too long.

[Kevin]

Okay.

[Sean Marchese]

No, I want to do the meme where I'm Charlie Day and I've got all these things on the bulletin board behind me connected with the red yarn, and I'm going to connect all these things. So fairy is. I think, somebody correct me if you think I'm wrong. Fairy is the source of all of these good things. Fairy is the place where all these things come from. Fantasy is the window that we open to let these things into our world. Fantasy is the way that we make these things.

[Alan Sisto]

It's the way to relate fairy to us.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, it's the way to. I mean, I really do think of it as opening a window to it. Sub creation is the act by which the writer opens that window, creates that fantasy, lets that fairy in. And the secondary world is maybe the vision that they write down that the reader then enters into to glimpse that fairy. And then the results of that, the effects of that on the reader, our recovery, escape and consolation.

[Alan Sisto]

I agree. Absolutely. Well put. Maybe the secondary world, I would add just that the secondary world is how we experience fairy through fantasy as written by the sub creation, by the sub creative act of the author. Because we can't experience it as a primary world, we can't physically go into fairy and experience these things ourselves. So the author, through an act of sub creation, writes a fantasy which brings the world of fairy to us that we experience as a secondary world. The better that author is at the sub creative act, the more internally consistent that world is and therefore the more we can stay embedded in it and therefore effectively experience recovery, escape and consolation. Oh, yeah, man.

[Sean Marchese]

What a great question to me. Thank you so much. I don't know how long we spent on that. Alan A while.

[Alan Sisto]

20 minutes plus. I think 20 well spent. I mean it's beautiful and thank you for giving us that platform and that really. I mean it's to set that up on the tee for us to swing

[Sean Marchese]

at and man, so much fun. So much really fun to go back to again. Like stuff that we were talking about 10 years, 10 years ago. Episode 1 Alan this is wild. And to and to just like approach it again from, from the perspective of everything we've learned since then.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I don't think we could have done that connection piece 10 years ago. I think probably not really. It was just very piecemeal at the time just trying to grasp these concepts. But yeah, after 10 years of being just buried in fantasy and experiencing those things for ourselves, but also getting to experience some sort of on behalf and through the listeners who are reading the book and experiencing that I think has enabled us to do that. So thank you.

[Sean Marchese]

That was great. Thank you. Demi.

[Alan Sisto]

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[Sean Marchese]

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[Alan Sisto]

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[Alan Sisto]

Now in just a minute, we'll get back to some more of our incredible listener questions. But before we do, I want to take a minute to thank the amazing community that has grown up around this show. After all, there is a lot more talk going on at the Prancing Pony podcast than just us, and even more than just us and our eight friends today.

[Sean Marchese]

That's right, the PPP really does have a warm and really welcoming listener community. If you've got questions or you just want to talk about how much you love Middle Earth, be sure to check out our Common room on Facebook and across all social media. On Facebook, just look for the Prancing Pony podcast and yes, you'll find a page. But you're really going to want to join our Facebook group to get that great fan community.

[Alan Sisto]

You definitely will. Now on every social media besides Facebook, we're just PrancingPonyPod. Find us everywhere and you can find our subreddit at R prancingponypod. And please check out my Daily Show, Today's Tolkien Times on all your favorite podcast apps. That's where you can get your daily Middle Earth fix with everything from Word, Nerd Wednesdays to Silmarillion Saturdays. Be sure to listen anywhere you get your podcasts. All right, Sean, let's go ahead and get back into this. Who do we have up next?

[Sean Marchese]

All right, next up is going to be John. John, what's your question for us?

[Tom]

Hi, guys.

[Alan Sisto]

Another sort of serious one, I guess, back in. In 2024, I had a pretty bad health scare, and for, you know, six or eight months, I didn't know if I was going to be still walking this planet in a year. And there are just some things within, you know, the Lord of the Rings and Tolkien that I would just turn to over and over again to kind of get that escape or consolation or recovery, you know, One of them was, of course, Sam looking up and seeing. Seeing the star Arendelle and. Yeah, and, you know, the shadow is a brief, you know, passing thing, and it always be high beauty. And, you know, whatever his exact line is, I can't recall it. But. And another was the I sit by the fire and think poem that Bilbo did. But, yeah, so those are two things I sort of went back to again and again and just, you know, to sort of, you know, think about things and stuff like that.

[Tom]

I was.

[Alan Sisto]

I was wondering, you know, if you guys ever go through, you know, some rough patches, you know, what. What parts of Tolkien really speak to you. Oh, wow. Yeah. Because there really are some moments, aren't there?

[Sean Marchese]

There are.

[Alan Sisto]

Those are two, actually, especially Sam and the star.

[Sean Marchese]

That is my number one, actually. That's my go to, because it is. I mean, that's exactly what that passage is about. It's Sam looking up and seeing they're in Mordor. There's this poisonous clouds in the sky above them. And he looks up and we all know the moment he sees this white star shining through the sky. And Tolkien says the beauty of it smote his heart as he looked up out of the forsaken land and hope returned to him for like a shaft, clear and cold. The thought pierced him that in the end, the shadow was only a small and passing thing. There was light and high beauty forever beyond its reach. Yeah, that is. That is my number one go to passage for when times are tough, because it just reminds us that any difficulty you're going through, it is a passing thing. All of these moments are temporary for us, and it doesn't always feel like that, but, you know, but that reminds us that they are. And I think the other thing I like about that is that passage reminds us not only that the shadow is a passing thing that these Troubles are going to pass. But it also reminds me that, you know, Sam, in this moment, he's doing this for a reason. He is suffering for something. He's suffering for his love of Frodo and for this quest that they're on together. He is fighting for something. And I think that's comforting to me as well, is to know not only is this something that's going to pass, but also that I can fight. I can keep on fighting. I can take just one step after another and just get through this because it's worth fighting for. So that is. That is my number one. I don't even have a number two. That's my number one. True.

[Alan Sisto]

It's a good number one. I find that so moving and so encouraging. I mean, we talk about the shadow being a passing thing. When you're facing something that may in fact not be a passing thing, right? When you're facing the end, it's still a reminder that above all of that, there is still. There is still that hope, There is still that beauty. It's out of reach, that goodness that it may be that you only get to experience it for the week or another month or another year. We all have that finite time in front of us, whatever the length of that time may be. But to know that that continues and that that is that what you're experiencing, that darkness or that sorrow or even that impending end is not all in all. It is not the everything. And I think that's such a powerful reminder for me. That has been my number one. It still is. But there's another one that comes to my mind, I think when I was covering the Field of Carmelon episodes. We get the Song of the Bard. Let me sing a Frodo, the nine fingers in this wonderful story. But there's a phrase at the very end that just really spoke to me about how these things are intertwined. He talks about, well, let me just read the line he sang to them now in the Elven tongue, now in the speech of the west, until their hearts, wounded with sweet words, overflowed and their joy was like swords. And they passed in thought out to regions where pain and delight flow together, and tears are the very wine of blessedness. And that hits every single time. And it. It hits even harder because then you read in some of Tolkien's letters that that's the passage that Tolkien is writing in the field of Carmelo. When he cries, he weeps at this. And then you read at our. The actual manuscript and you can see the tear stains on the Piece. The piece of paper where he wept. Writing those words and the idea that pain and delight are connected is so alien to our experience. Like, we don't. We don't want to connect those two. We don't want to see how those two are flip sides of the same coin, but they're inextricably together. But to realize that tears can be the very wine of blessedness is. Is a comfort in those times when tears are unavoidable.

[Sean Marchese]

That's beautiful. That really is. And I appreciate you sharing that. I mean, that's. That is.

[Kevin]

That's.

[Sean Marchese]

That's a really. Yeah, that is a really powerful one.

[Alan Sisto]

It is a powerful passage. There's so many of those moments, aren't there? I mean, Theoden's death is another one, right? For him, it is the end. And he knows that. But what he says is beautiful. So lots of that.

[Sean Marchese]

And, you know, as you were talking, Alan, I was thinking, you know, there's the. There is a number two that I don't go to often, but there is one that is another similarly inspiring passage. And it's just a very special moment between two of my favorite characters and that's Eowyn and Faramir.

[Alan Sisto]

Of course it is.

[Sean Marchese]

And, you know, that's the moment when. This is from the chapter the Steward and the King. Faramir and Eowyn are, you know, they're at the Houses of Healing and, you know, they're. They're looking out at Mordor. And it says. A sound like a sigh went up from all the lands about them and their hearts beat suddenly again. It reminds me of Numenor, said Faramir, and wondered to hear himself speak of Numenor, said Eowyn. Yes, said Faramir, of the land of Westerness that foundered and of the great dark wave climbing over the green lands and above the hills and coming on. Darkness unescapable. I often dream of it. Then you think that the darkness is coming, said Eowyn. Darkness unescapable. And suddenly she drew close to him. No, said Faramir, looking into her face. It was but a picture in the mind. I do not know what is happening. The reason of my waking mind tells me that great evil has befallen and we stand at the end of days. But my heart says nay, and all my limbs are light. And a hope and joy are come to me that no reason can deny. Eowyn. Eowyn, White lady of Rohan. In this hour I do not believe that any darkness will endure. And he stooped and kissed her brow. And this is. I mean, this is a beautiful, romantic moment between these two characters that I shipped before I knew what shipping was. And I think it's a reminder of how the people that we love can be a refuge for us in these difficult times, you know. And again, you know, the experience, you know, that John shared, that kind of started this question. That's a hard thing to think about having to face. And, you know, obviously we're all gonna face that someday, and I don't know when it comes. I hope that I, you know, I hope that it's my family, it's my loved ones, yes, my wife, but everybody around me who I love that I think are gonna hopefully help me get through that and face that and be brave. And so, I don't know. That's another really nice moment that I do love that line that I do think. And it's that phrase, darkness unescapable. Because there is some darkness that is unescapable and there's a fate that's unescapable for all of us. But to have that hope and that joy, those are his words. Faramir says that hope and that joy, that I believe right now, I don't believe that any darkness will endure. You know, the feeling that I have right now, this love, this happiness are going to lift me up. And I don't think that any darkness will endure. That's kind of lovely.

[Alan Sisto]

Even in the face of inescapable darkness.

[Sean Marchese]

Even in the face of inescapable darkness, which the, you know, it's like a paradox, but. Yeah, it is, but it's. I think the point is that. And even though the darkness is not. Is not inescapable in the situation they're in right now, but if it was, the point is not that this love negates the darkness or allows you to escape that fate, the point is that it allows you to face it. That's right. It gives you the strength you need to face it. And it makes you feel hopeful.

[Alan Sisto]

I think so, too. Man. Wow, thank you, John.

[Sean Marchese]

Thank you, John.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, a really good. Another great question. Really appreciate that. Sean, who do we have up next?

[Sean Marchese]

Next is going to be Ana Maria.

[Alan Sisto]

Welcome, Ana Maria. Hello, longtime listener, first time caller here.

[Sean Marchese]

My question is not nearly as deep

[Alan Sisto]

as the ones we heard before, although I'm very happy that Sean mentioned Numenor,

[Sean Marchese]

since this is a numenor related question.

[Alan Sisto]

I was going through the obscure part. Parts of the peoples of Middle Earth and specifically note on the marriage of

[Sean Marchese]

Miriel and Pharazon here, Amandil has a

[Alan Sisto]

brother named Alantir and Miriel named Zimrahil in several versions of the Akalabeth, including this one, is said to be betrothed

[Sean Marchese]

to this mother, but falls in love

[Alan Sisto]

with Pharazon when she first sees him instead. Now, my question is, what turn do you think that their story would have taken if this remained in the official quote unquote version and was expanded upon? Oh, that's a fun speculation, Sean. So if, if instead of being like, forced into marriage as she was and, you know, have having usurped the throne as a process, what if she's like, oh, all right. I mean, what if this is Erendis being just completely entranced by Eldarion? I mean, I'm not saying it ends any better because we know how that story ends. What do you think, Sean?

[Sean Marchese]

So the question here is if she actually loved him and married him willingly instead of being forced into marriage.

[Alan Sisto]

All right, so just so that we all are on the same page, let's go to the peoples of Middle Earth. And this is in the history of the Akadabeth. Near the very end of that is a section called Note on the Marriage of Miriel and Pharazon. And there were several different manuscripts and typescripts that Christopher references. The first one is a, which is described as a rough manuscript, and this is the one or one of a couple where we learned that maybe that relationship could have been different. He, speaking of our Pharazon, was a man of great beauty and strength and stature after the image of the first kings. And indeed in his youth was not unlike the Edain of old in mind also, though he had strength of will rather than of wisdom as after appeared when he was corrupted by the counsels of his father. And the acclaim of the people goes on to talk about his friendship with Amandil and that he loved that group of people, the house of Valandil. And that's where we read that with them he was often a guest. And there came Zimrahil, his cousin, daughter of Inziladun, who was later King Tar Palantir. So we know who we're talking about here, but there's where we get the new character. Elen'tyr, the brother of Amandil, loved her, but when first she saw Farazan, her eyes and her heart were turned to him for his beauty and for his wealth. Also he left. She remained single. Her father dies. She's going to become the queen. Then we read that Ferrazon comes back, came to her and she was glad and forsook the allegiance of her father for the time being, enamored of Pharazon. And that's when they broke the laws that forbade marriage between first cousins. And then when they were wedded, she yielded the scepter to Farazan and he sat upon the throne of Elros in the name of our Pharazon, the golden. So that is an interesting speculation. Like, what if. What if that were the case, right? I mean, Amandil is Valandil. I'm trying to remember, is it Valandil becomes Amandil or Amandil becomes Valandil? Right. It's the other way around. Valandil becomes Amandil. So Amadil is the name we recognize from the story, but he doesn't have a brother in the final version. And Christopher explains that on this view, his father abandoned the new story and returned to the version that we know. Amandil's brother Elentir was lost. Okay, so let's assume we're in a version of the story where Elantir is still there. He's heartbroken because his love has married this rich pretty boy who's going to now take the throne. Now I'm picturing, er, Farazon as a looks maxer, and that is not good.

[Sean Marchese]

No, no, no.

[Alan Sisto]

So what do we think happens if. If that's how this goes down? I mean, all I can think of is that immediately, you know, we read in that, in that version A, that she forsook the allegiance of her father. I think the faithful immediately, like, you're no daughter of mine. I mean, we're done, right? You've married your first cousin. You've married a guy who's not going to be the right. You should have been the queen. And now you're giving up your throne. No, we're done here. Maybe it exacerbates the split, makes it a little bit worse. I mean, nothing can get much worse. I mean, well, but.

[Sean Marchese]

But again, I'm thinking of like something like Aldarian and Horrendous, where, you know, we see the effect that people following their hearts, it can. It can end badly, you know.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that's true. Eldarion and Hirendis are the poster children for that concept.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah. And so I wonder if this becomes another story like that, where we have another, you know, sort of moving story, I guess on some level. But. But it ends up being something that's very bad for. For the kingdom. Like you say, it's going to be very bad anyway, but maybe it does exacerbate the split sooner? Maybe the faithful, I don't know. Is there a world in which the faithful decide to take off earlier? I don't know.

[Alan Sisto]

Maybe, maybe, maybe they're forced to take off, they're sent into exile by Pharazon, not just like go live on this side of the island, you know, it's more like go live in Middle Earth. You're done here.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, I mean, I do think it's interesting that any version where Miriel has more agency and she chooses to marry somebody she shouldn't marry, whether that's Ar Pharazon or whether that's this Alentir character, like any one of those versions makes her more complicit in the fall of Numenor, which I kind of like just because I think it's interesting. I'm not saying I like her, I'm just saying I'm saying it makes for an interesting story.

[Alan Sisto]

It does. It does make for an interesting story for a good person to literally convert to being the bad person from abandoning the faithful and joining this guy and in doing so violating the laws. I mean, in that manuscript version, I didn't read this line, but it was interesting that one of the reasons they were able to get away with it is this. But they were too powerful for any to gainsay them. Like, you guys can't get married. Yeah, who's going to stop me?

[Sean Marchese]

Right? Right.

[Alan Sisto]

That is interesting. I mean, I prefer the published version where you've got this noble woman whose throne was usurped against her will and who fights with all of her might to try to do the right thing and who at the very end is that symb of faithful resistance climbing the men El Tarma as the wave ineluctably drowns the continent or the island. But yeah, I get that.

[Sean Marchese]

But I always liked the alternate versions in which like even the ones where she just willingly married our Pharazon. I kind of like, I love that idea just because I think it makes for a very interesting character. And then there's almost kind of a like a lot's wife quality to. To her going up and climbing the metal Tarma if she is complicit in everything that's happening.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh yes, you're right. So it's more like a last ditch attempt to escape or a final repentance that's circumstantial, not legitimate or real. That's interesting.

[Sean Marchese]

Again, I'm not saying that I want her to have made that choice. I just. I think it would have made for an Interesting twist on the story.

[Alan Sisto]

The bad guys always make for an interesting story. I mean, they do. You know, People. People get on us for bashing Feanor all the time. Like, you know, the story wouldn't have been as good without him. Of course it wouldn't have been as good without him. We never said it would be. It's just the, you know, villains are great, you know. You know, especially when. When they turn from the good. What an interesting story arc. She would have had interesting stuff. I like that. All right. Good question. Anna Maria, thank you for allowing us to dive deep, deep into the crevices.

[Sean Marchese]

Dig into some deep, deep cuts on that one. That's a lot.

[Alan Sisto]

Seriously, I love that. All right, well, who do we have up next? Sean?

[Sean Marchese]

Next up, Alan, is going to be Tom.

[Alan Sisto]

Tom, welcome back.

[Sean Marchese]

Welcome back, Tom.

[Tom]

Thank you.

[Alan Sisto]

Great to be here.

[Tom]

So I've got a little one and I got a big one. Which one do you want?

[Alan Sisto]

Your call, sir.

[Sean Marchese]

Your call. Yeah, your choice.

[Tom]

I'll do the little one. The first thing we learn about Sam, the very first thing we learn about him is that he loves stories. You know, and we learned that from the Gaffer.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Tom]

And then Bilbo, you know, taught him his letters.

[Alan Sisto]

Not meaning any harm, of course.

[Tom]

And right then, of course, you get the point where. Where they're on their way to Rivendell and Sam sings the Troll song and Frodo says, wow, I'm learning a lot about Sam here. You know, on this journey, he's gonna end up being a wizard or warrior. And Sam's like, no, no, no, no, no, no. And now. And. And one of the things that's really interesting about that is when Sam is having his temptation with the ring, that's exactly what he imagines. He's Samwise the Strong, striding across the land with a flaming sword. And with the wave of his hand, he makes the veil of Gorgoroth blossom. I just noticed a really interesting thing about that yesterday or the other day.

[Alan Sisto]

Is this where he turns the orcs into groundhogs according to the Bakshi adaptation? Yes, one.

[Tom]

Exactly. And yes. And he turns, you know, Gollum into Bill Murray.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Oh, man.

[Tom]

And it just. They just keep going, doing it over and over again. Yeah. So, okay, the first sentence there was, which I. Which I alluded to. Right. Wild fantasies arose in his mind, and he saw Samwise the Strong, hero of the age, striding with a flaming sword across the darkened land, and armies flocking to his call as he marched to the overthrow of Barad Duration. Now this. In each part of this sentence in the. Samwise the Strong striding with a flaming sword and armies flocking to his call. Those two different parts. It's like he's thinking of two different people. And who are the people.

[Alan Sisto]

Who are the people that he's imagining himself as? First, as the individual striding with a flaming sword and then second as the general with the army's flock talking to his call.

[Kevin]

Yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

One's the lone hero and one is the. The leader.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Specific people Champion in general. So Tom is asking us. He knows who these are. He's asking us a question because he knows the answer, as any good Vorlon would. So we have to figure this out. Who is he thinking of when he thinks about the flaming sword? Now, the Flamifer of Westerness comes to mind.

[Sean Marchese]

True, but that's not a flaming sword.

[Alan Sisto]

It's not a flaming sword. Right. The only flaming sword he's seen would have been the flipping Balrogs. That's literally a flaming sword. But I don't think he's picturing himself as a Balrog. If he does, Sam, please don't picture yourself with wings.

[Sean Marchese]

I mean, the number one lone hero of the First Age who has a special sword. Not a flaming sword, no.

[Alan Sisto]

But a special one.

[Sean Marchese]

But, you know, Turin obviously is. He is the great. He's like. He's the number one lone hero of the First Age. Right.

[Alan Sisto]

In fairness, he also had armies flocking to his call, though, too. Right. I mean, he led the army of Nargothron out, much to their dismay.

[Sean Marchese]

Well, that's true.

[Alan Sisto]

Part of us, we're reading Sam here, but we're also reading Sam through Tom's eyes, Sean. That's the challenge.

[Sean Marchese]

I know. I just. I can't. Who's got the flaming sword? I don't know.

[Alan Sisto]

I don't know. I mean, don't be so literal with that. Okay, that's what I thought. All right. You know, what is the name of Aragorn's sword and what was it before? Right. Narsil. Shards of Narsil. The sun and the Moon. The flame. Right. So maybe he's seeing himself as the leader that he has most recently seen fighting.

[Sean Marchese]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

He would have seen Aragorn. Maybe he's thinking of himself in that.

[Sean Marchese]

Well, and also, the. The reforged version of that sword is Flame of the West.

[Alan Sisto]

The Flame of the West. That's what I was trying to get at. But. And, of course, Tom has just given us the clue that. Yeah, the reforged name. So I Think he sees himself as. As Aragorn.

[Tom]

There's another clue that it's Aragorn, hero

[Alan Sisto]

of the age, striding right there.

[Sean Marchese]

It's the striding right there, isn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

That's a. Something answers smacking me in the forehead.

[Sean Marchese]

That's. That's. That's when the subtext is become text.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Kevin]

So.

[Alan Sisto]

So he's picturing himself first as Aragorn. But of course, in Aragorn's mind he knows that his role is to be that. That leader. Not just the hero striding across the land but the guy who's going to become the king. And armies will be flocking to his call.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

So is he picturing himself as sort of like the two roles of Strider, as Strider and as King Elessar or is he picturing himself as Strider and a second individual?

[Sean Marchese]

Maybe, maybe Elendil or Isildur.

[Tom]

I think that the second individual. It's a warning. The second individual is trouble.

[Alan Sisto]

The warning. Okay, so he wouldn't be picturing Denethor or anything because there's no Denethorpe.

[Tom]

Who else has imagined armies flocking to his call?

[Alan Sisto]

Well, that's. Saruman has certainly imagined that. And, but would. Would Sam have any. Sam doesn't have the experience of Saruman that like Marion Pippen have. He doesn't have any experience of Denethor either. So, yeah, it's going to be.

[Sean Marchese]

I mean, is it. Is it Isildur? I mean, he didn't have armies flocking to his call but it would be

[Tom]

no surprise if armies flocked to Isildur's call.

[Alan Sisto]

Hold on.

[Sean Marchese]

Right?

[Alan Sisto]

Hold on. Go back to Boromir trying to take the Ring from Frodo. He's immediately thinking of how he can use this Ring to pull together the armies. Right. That's literally one of the reasons he gives to Frodo. Why he should take it.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, that's true.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, I don't know if Sam wouldn't have necessarily heard that, but he would have heard about it from Frodo.

[Sean Marchese]

Frodo would have told him.

[Alan Sisto]

Frodo would have told him everything that happened.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, they've been together for oh, a while now. So.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, interesting.

[Tom]

Of course there's. The other word choice is that, you know, it's just. It's like the only other time flocking is not used of birds.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, you're right because that is something that he actually says.

[Tom]

And so you have like this one where. Well, hey, Aragorn, that sounds great, except it is a little too big for his Britches, Right.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah.

[Tom]

And on the other hand, you've got.

[Kevin]

Oh, yeah.

[Tom]

When Boromir was imagining armies flocking to his call, it was a bad thing.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes. He's doing his villain monologue. This is the. You know, Frodo caught Boromir monologuing. And at the end of that monologue, at almost the very end, he goes, you know, we should have this. What could not a warrior do in this hour? A great leader. Now, first he says, aragorn. He says, what could not Aragorn do? Or. Or if he refuses, oh, well, why not?

[Sean Marchese]

Why not me?

[Alan Sisto]

The Ring would give me power of command, the capital C. And then this is where Tom's right about the use of the word flock. How I would drive the hosts of Mordor and all men would flock to my banner.

[Sean Marchese]

Wow.

[Alan Sisto]

So Tolkien is, with his words, literally pointing us right there to Sam, thinking about both Aragorn and Boromir, two guys who have been faced with the temptation of the Ring, one of whom chose not to take it and the other who tried to.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And it's that decision, I think, that then helps lead him to make the right call, to make the Aragorn call and not the Boromir call.

[Sean Marchese]

Because in Sam's mind, he's thinking of himself as a hero. He's thinking of, who are the heroes that I've seen? And he's thinking of these two great, tall, noble men that he's seen. And, yeah, he goes to Aragorn first, probably just because of his height. And then he goes. And then he's thinking like, I'm inserting my own inner monologue for Sam here as he's going through this, and he's thinking about Aragorn. And then suddenly he's like, but what if I become Boromir? What if I'm. You know, what if I become more like that?

[Alan Sisto]

That is a really interesting insight, Tom,

[Sean Marchese]

and it is a fascinating insight, Tom. And yet by the end of that paragraph, he still has not made his decision not to try to take the Ring. By the end of that paragraph, he says he had only to put on the Ring and claim it for his own. And all this could be. So he has this vision of himself as an Aragorn, then he has this vision of himself as a Boromir. And that doesn't scare him away from the idea. Neither one.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

So he's still thinking, yeah, I guess I could be a Boromir at his turn. Boromir almost got it. That's really interesting. I mean, a little scary Actually, it is scary.

[Alan Sisto]

And then it's not a surprise that what. What grounds him isn't thinking about Aragorn or Abromir. It's thinking of Frodo.

[Sean Marchese]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

It's the love of his master that grounds him and that leads him back to making that right decision.

[Sean Marchese]

What a cool insight, Tom. I love that.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I love how you turn that insight into a question. Well played, sir.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah. And I'm seeing now how I was, like, way off in trying to think of First Age heroes or Second Age heroes.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I think I was thinking of the stories.

[Sean Marchese]

And it says, samwise the Strong, hero of the age.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

Hero of this age. Hero of the Third Age.

[Alan Sisto]

I was connecting it back because of his love of stories. And therefore, what stories is he thinking of rather than what experience is he thinking of?

[Sean Marchese]

Right. Me too, me too. But of course, he's going to relate that to his experience of actual human

[Alan Sisto]

heroes, which is why you can't include those things that I was tempted to include but couldn't. Like, there's not going to be any Denethor thought here. There's not going to be any Saruman thought here. There's not going to be any Theoden thought here. He doesn't even know who Theoden is.

[Sean Marchese]

So, yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Only the people he's seen. He is Sam, after all. Fascinating. Good question. All right.

[Sean Marchese]

Awesome, Tom. Thank you, Sean.

[Alan Sisto]

Who do we have up next?

[Sean Marchese]

Next up is Nakat.

[Alan Sisto]

One of you have already heard this question, but I am going to repeat this question anyway. And you guys also mentioned AOL earlier. So this question is about Eyol. And the question is, is Eyol ever going to be released from Mandos? I asked you that first. And if he is, would Aradel ever get back with him?

[Kevin]

No.

[Alan Sisto]

Arethel has learned her lesson. So is that going to be another Miriel and Fenway story? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where Finwe, basically, his wife dies and so they say, no, you can go ahead and remarry. And then all sorts of things happen. Terribly. Yeah. If there's anybody who's going to be stuck in the halls of Mandos longer than Feanor, it is EOL and his son. In fact, I might even argue that EOL gets out before his son. His son betrayed Gondolin, the possibly the worst thing that an Elf has ever done. But on an individual level, what EOL's done is.

[Sean Marchese]

But he did that. And I am not going to. I'm not going to defend Maeglin one iota here. My gliber Here. No, I'm just saying his dad really just put him on the wrong path. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

He was set up for failure the whole time.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, they're certainly gonna enjoy their time together.

[Sean Marchese]

This is quite possibly a worse father than Denethor. Honestly.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

Neglectful, abusive towards his mother, who didn't really want to be there in the

[Alan Sisto]

first place, tries to murder his son.

[Sean Marchese]

That's all you get to murder his son. And raises the kind of person. Yeah. Who would betray Gondolin because his cousin doesn't want to marry him.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. Exactly. Betray an entire Elven kingdom because your first cousin thinks you're a creep.

[Sean Marchese]

I'm going to date myself with this reference. But this. But that is a Jerry Springer episode if I ever saw one in Middle Earth.

[Alan Sisto]

I love the way that you painted yourself with that. I might even say it was a Phil Donahue episode, but that goes back to almost before my time.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, that's. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

All right.

[Sean Marchese]

Well, every Gen Z and Younger is like, who?

[Alan Sisto]

Who? Yeah, it's a TikTok video, I'm sure.

[Sean Marchese]

Now, Phil Donahue. Is that the guy who was on Saturday Night Live?

[Alan Sisto]

As far from it as you can get. Phil Hartman was funny.

[Sean Marchese]

Jim Springer. He had that comedy show in the 90s, right. With Elaine and Kramer.

[Alan Sisto]

The show about nothing, famously.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah. Yeah, that guy.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, we've really confused people. We've really confused people.

[Sean Marchese]

Ayo. I do think that Eyol bears some responsibility for the fall of Gondola. I think that, yes, Maeglin does it, but EOL made that monster.

[Alan Sisto]

He absolutely did.

[Sean Marchese]

And I think he absolutely bears some of the blame for it.

[Alan Sisto]

And I don't think either of them get bodied until it's time for their new bodies before the end of the world. So they can then die. I mean, seriously, both of them stay in Mandala. I mean, literally, Feanor is like, I'm out. See you guys.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just don't see that when that happens. Does Arivel go back to that family? Absolutely not. Run away, sister. Run as fast as you can in the opposite direction.

[Alan Sisto]

That is a hard no.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah. No, I'm sorry.

[Alan Sisto]

She was already not wholly unwilling in the beginning.

[Kevin]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Which means she was partially unwilling. Can we be.

[Sean Marchese]

Which means that she was partially unwilling.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Therefore. Yeah. She has learned her lesson. It also. She took a spear for her son and it killed her. So I think she's learned her lesson. There's absolutely. It is the most toxic relationship, even more so than Eldarion and Arendus. And, boy, that's saying something.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, that's saying something. Yeah, Yeah. I hope she just. Yeah. When she is rehoused, I hope she is just. And she's gonna be rehoused a lot earlier. Oh, a lot earlier.

[Alan Sisto]

She sacrificed herself to save her son 100%.

[Sean Marchese]

She's probably hanging out in Valinor, you

[Alan Sisto]

know, a couple weeks later.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, I mean, right?

[Alan Sisto]

She's chilling now.

[Sean Marchese]

She's coming back, dude. She's hanging out. She's, you know, she's having a, having

[Alan Sisto]

a margarita on the shores. You know, she's enjoying a little. A little probably like pina colada.

[Sean Marchese]

Probably.

[Alan Sisto]

Actually, you know, that's what I'm thinking.

[Sean Marchese]

Chilling with her brother Turgon. She's enjoying life. When these guys come back, they're like, hey, baby, it's been a while and new phone.

[Alan Sisto]

Who it is?

[Sean Marchese]

You know, I don't know, like, maybe we could just like, I don't know, maybe go. Go see a movie or something. And she's like, no, no, Netflix and chill. No, no. She's like, I have become a different person than the person I was when I was with you.

[Alan Sisto]

I've grown and I'm. Yeah, it doesn't take much to grow beyond you, but I have grown beyond you.

[Sean Marchese]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Tom in the chat says, not as quick as Finrod. I think he's absolutely right. Now Mandos is like, you just go right on through.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Thanks for stopping by.

[Sean Marchese]

The revolving door is yours, Finrod. Just, just right, right back out.

[Alan Sisto]

Thanks for stopping in. It was good. Good to see you, buddy. Yeah, no, I think for sure. AOL and my Glenn are high fiving

[Sean Marchese]

him as he goes through.

[Alan Sisto]

Like, see you next time.

[Sean Marchese]

High fives all around. Yeah, good show. Feligund.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Oh, man, that was a fun question. I mean, also a dark question because of ale, but you know, a really good one. Here's your roa. What's your hurry? Exactly?

[Sean Marchese]

Oh, my gosh.

[Alan Sisto]

What a great line, Tom.

[Kevin]

Thank you.

[Alan Sisto]

Well played. I think that might even be the title of the episode. Here's your roa. What's your hurry? All right. You have won the Internet today, as they say. All right, Sean, who do we have remaining in this incredibly, incredibly long first round?

[Sean Marchese]

All right, first round. Last voice of the first round is going to be Jerry.

[Alan Sisto]

Jerry. Welcome, sir. Thank you for your patience.

[Sean Marchese]

Oh, well, thank you for having me back. And I'm glad I was able to make it despite the best efforts of local traffic. So, Sean, you are the lord of the mark, with Lord being A prestigious title that indicates some level of royalty and that relatively few people have had. Alan, you are the man of the West. With man being a title that 49% of everybody that has ever existed on this planet has held. So not so prestigious. So, Sean, as you outrank Alan, as

[Alan Sisto]

it were, it's always been, if the

[Sean Marchese]

man of the west was a man in your court, what position would you appoint him to and what position would he be best suited to? They don't have to be the same answer, but, you know, I'd understand if they were. And then, Alan, just so it doesn't look like I'm teeing up. Sean, same question for you, but you are.

[Kevin]

Okay.

[Alan Sisto]

All right. Sounds good.

[Sean Marchese]

So the trick to a question like this is answering in a way where I'm still allowed to come back on the show in a week.

[Alan Sisto]

You have, like, four or five episodes still to record, Sean. And keep that in mind.

[Kevin]

Yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

Can I be serious for a minute?

[Alan Sisto]

Sure.

[Sean Marchese]

If I were a lord, if I were an actual marchese in feudal Italy, I would. Alan would be like. I know, like everybody wants me to say, like, he's going to be the court jester or something ridiculous like that. Alan is going to be one of my top advisors. He is going to be like. He's going to be, I don't know, my seneschal. Can I say that?

[Tom]

Yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

That's a thing, right?

[Alan Sisto]

It is a thing.

[Sean Marchese]

He's going to be. I got to look that up to make sure that's a high rank.

[Alan Sisto]

Your Mentat.

[Sean Marchese]

My Mentat? You are my. Yeah. Seneschal is a senior administrative official or major domo in a medieval royal or noble household.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

Not unlike my Mentat, minus the skills in math. Alan is truly just like one of the smartest, wisest people I've ever known. And ever since we first met, he and I just clicked. We just got each other. And there's nobody. If I were running a border territory, there's nobody I'd want to bounce ideas off of more than Alan Sisto. So he would be a very high ranking advisory official in my court. I am 100% serious about that.

[Alan Sisto]

Thank you, Sean. Does the position come with pay?

[Sean Marchese]

No, it does not. Just praise.

[Alan Sisto]

Just praise. I'll take it.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah. You're doing this for the good feelings.

[Alan Sisto]

Carry the zero. The firefly reference for the win.

[Sean Marchese]

Neil suggested that this would be like, Grima. You're the Grima to my theoden. If I was the actual Lord of the Mark, you'd be my Grima. I don't want to go there.

[Alan Sisto]

I don't want to go there either.

[Sean Marchese]

That's a bad place to go. That's not a good place to go. No, man.

[Alan Sisto]

Do you have a niece by any chance? Is she cute? I'm totally kidding.

[Sean Marchese]

She is, but she's better with a sword than you are.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, that's fair. Yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

And a shield. No, absolutely. Alan would be one of my top advisors.

[Alan Sisto]

That was very kind.

[Sean Marchese]

Even though Alan and I still talk several times a month, we bounce ideas off of each other, we ask each other for advice on all kinds of weird things.

[Alan Sisto]

That's true.

[Sean Marchese]

That's the role I would want. Alan by my side, helping me. Helping me rule my territory.

[Alan Sisto]

Thank you, Sean.

[Sean Marchese]

Before it inevitably was, you know, sacked by the Huns or something.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, yeah, I'm not going to be much help with the story because we

[Sean Marchese]

have no business actually doing that job. But we, we would fail at it

[Alan Sisto]

together and, but we would find the people who could. There you go. That's our biggest. I mean, you know, how do I answer this? Anything other than something incredibly similar. I mean, that's the thing. I, I would want, Sean, if I'm. If I'm ruling a kingdom someplace, you know, and I'm responsible for the well being of my people and my land, I'm going to want somebody I can count on to give me good advice. And by, I specifically mean telling me when I've got a really stupid idea. There is nobody I trust more to tell me that I am having a really stupid idea than somebody who's been a victim of some of my stupid ideas. So I think, I mean, and I'm not saying that just because, oh, he said this nice thing first, but that's, that's exactly the kind of role I'd want him to play. He's not going to be my ambassador someplace else. I want him here. You know, I want to be able to consult with him and to, you know, sort of, I guess he'd be my vicegerent, you know, if I were to leave, you know.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

How do you like that word?

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, that's a good one.

[Alan Sisto]

I love that word. I love the very subtle difference between Vice Regent and Vice Chair. Yes, good stuff. And a great question.

[Sean Marchese]

Just to be clear though, that's not going to happen because I do outrank you. As has been established.

[Alan Sisto]

As has indeed been established. Yes. But you know what else has been established? As Tom said, I am available in case I need to replace you as a co host. Oh, man. Good, good stuff. Well, we'll be right back after this short break.

[Sean Marchese]

This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome.

[Alan Sisto]

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[Sean Marchese]

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[Alan Sisto]

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[Sean Marchese]

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[Alan Sisto]

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[Sean Marchese]

Or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for for it, ready to make anything online make sense. There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required compatibility and availability.

[Alan Sisto]

Various 18/study and play come together on a Windows 11 PC and for a limited time, college students get the best of both worlds. Get the unreal college deal, everything you need to study and play with select Windows 11 PCs. Eligible students get a year of money, Microsoft 365 Premium and a year of Xbox Game Pass ultimate with a custom color Xbox wireless controller. Learn [e-mail] studentoffer while supplies last ends June 30th turns at aka mscollegepc. This episode is brought to you by Prime. What if you had one more chance with the one that got away? Sam you Came Home Based on the best selling novel from Carly Fortune Every year After Follow follows childhood friends Sam and Percy as they reunite in the dreamy, nostalgic lakeside town of Berries Bay. Love can be hard to find, so if you're lucky enough to find that person, never let go. A second chance at first love Every year after now streaming only on Prime.

[Sean Marchese]

We told you about the amazing PPP community after our earlier break. If you are a part of that community and you want to enjoy something even more special, come join the Fellowship of the Podcast on Patreon. You get to be in the best discord community around, one that includes host hangouts and even live episode recordings.

[Alan Sisto]

And your support there is what enables me to continue to work on these shows full time, from the PPP to today's Tolkien Times to Rings of Power Wrap up, which we just found out is going to come out around the holidays. Thank you so much Amazon for absolutely destroying my holiday season and my streaming show the PPP plays when you join. You also get Episode postscripts ad free episodes, free merch and all.

[Sean Marchese]

And you can join these questions after Nightfall episodes or even appear as a guest in the North Wing. So go to patreon.com prancingponypod to show your support and join the Fellowship of the Podcast.

[Alan Sisto]

And don't forget to rate and review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify and please recommend us to your friends. You can do that directly on Spotify now Just share the show from the app. All right, well, this has been a much longer first round than we have had in a very long time. Time. Let's see if we can get a few more, though.

[Sean Marchese]

All right, so first up in this round is going to be Neil. Neil, what do you got for us this time?

[Alan Sisto]

Thanks again. So One of the PPP's greatest funny moments, in my opinion, is when, Alan, you ambushed Sean with the prophecy of Boromir, the First to Kyrion, his wayward son, in one of the Tolkien reading days about the events on the summit of Amon. Anwar, the result of that meeting between Kyrion and Eor saw the founding of Rohan. But I would like you to speculate, please, on what may have happened to Kalinavan if the Aotheod had not stayed there and instead returned to the north, for example, would the Dunlendings have taken over? Could Saruman have taken over what became the Westfold and the Eastfold? Or might the Dunedan, sorry, not the Druidan, have diminished less than they would have at the end of the Third Age? Ooh, that's a fun question. My first thought is that Kalanarthon would then become known as Kansas because of Kirion, my wayward son. Sorry, it's not. Sorry.

[Sean Marchese]

Okay. It's flat. It is green. It's, you know. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

All it needs is tornadoes. Yeah, that is. That is a really interesting question. I. I think a little bit of all of those comes to mind.

[Sean Marchese]

I think so, yeah. My. My first thought was yes and yes, for sure. The first two of Niel's speculations, the Dunlendings coming in there, certainly from that side. Yeah, absolutely. And Saruman coming in and taking it for his own, which is what we see him trying to do in the Third Age. And it is only because the Rohirrim are there and are able to resist him that he's not able to do that. If it's the Dunlendings there and Saruman makes the same alliance with the Dunlendings that we see him make in the.

[Alan Sisto]

Then he has effective control without using

[Sean Marchese]

military force, effective control over that whole region. And he is right on Gondor's eastern doorstep, you know, he's right there.

[Alan Sisto]

And really he can come around either way. You know, I mean, it's not as. As easy to come around the west side. But, you know, he could do that if he has the Dunlendings in tow. Because, you know, you think about, like, Helm, Hammerhand and Freca. Where was Freca's lands? They Were over there near the Ottorn.

[Sean Marchese]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Much further to the west of the Isen. And that's certainly a way that he could have come through and then, you know, destroyed the fiefdoms on his way to Pelargir and Minas Tirith.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Threatening both sides for sure.

[Sean Marchese]

So I think we see again how just the Rohirrim just being there ends up being a providential thing. It ends up, you know, it's a good thing they're there.

[Alan Sisto]

It's a good thing they're there so many times.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, I'm thinking even of, like, when. What is it? King Folkwina sends his twin sons to help fight off attacks from the south. Those sons die at the. At the Poros, which is, you know, the southern border of Gondor. All the way, way far away from. From Rohan. But, you know, they're able to drive off or to assist in driving off, you know, the. The Horadrim. Yeah, it's. I think you're right. It's yes and yes to both. The interesting thing would be what happens if there was conflict between Saruman and the Dunlendings? What if Saruman wanted that for his own and took it from the Dunlendings? Would he be. I don't think they could ever be organized enough to present the kind of threat to him that Rohan did.

[Sean Marchese]

No, I agree with that. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, there's that. So I guess the question remains is what happens with the Druedyne? I just finished the episodes on the Druedyne with Don Marshall. We were talking about them, and they are. They are a small people to begin with, and they are sort of the remnants of a small people. Though we find out in a footnote, by the way, that there actually were some living in what was, you know, the old pukka wilderness on the. The Peninsula of Andrath.

[Sean Marchese]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Druai. Fjawr, I think, is what it was called. And it just means basically their former. The old place that they used to live, but they actually still live there. So they might have have grown a bit. The thing that makes me think they might have diminished a little less is what Khan, Bari Khan says to Theoden, which is basically, stop hunting us. So they would not have been hunted. Well, they might eventually have been hunted by the Druidain. And that. That sort of leads me to the. Would they have been much larger? They were very content living in that forest. I don't think they wanted to live in any place other than a forest. They've always preferred wooded lands. So I don't think they would have expanded. But the question, and it's a good one, is would they have had slightly larger numbers had they not been hunted by. Yeah, by the Rohirrim. But I also still have that question for, for Han. Like, how long have they been. Like, is he remembering ancestral hunting or is like literally Thetan sent somebody out a month ago to on a Druidine hunt? I don't think it's the latter.

[Sean Marchese]

Probably not. But I don't know that it matters. I mean, they still hunted them in the past. As much as I love the Rohirrim, anytime you've got people coming in and colonizing a land and displacing an indigenous people to that land, you know, they've displaced them, they've pushed them aside, which they did.

[Alan Sisto]

To the Dunlendings as well.

[Sean Marchese]

To the Dunlendings as well.

[Alan Sisto]

Certainly showing the hostility there.

[Sean Marchese]

Kevin in the chat has just pointed out it reminds him of the Sindar hunting the petty dwarves in the First Age. And I was thinking of that exact same thing too. Meme and his sons are like the only ones left, basically. And we're told that the Sindar actually

[Alan Sisto]

did hunt them and that they were thought of as beasts. Right. Well, it's the same thing with the Rohirrim. There's a passage in the chapter on the Druedyne that essentially says the Rohirrim did not recognize the statues as being related to them. They also did not recognize the humanity of these people. That's the same reason for the hunting as the Sindar had for hunting the petty Dwarves.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, yeah. I can't help but think that the Druedyne would be more in number if it weren't for the Rohirrim being there.

[Alan Sisto]

The only question is they're such a small group anyway. Even if they were 20% larger, that might be hundred people. I mean, they're a very small group. They were a very small group even in the first stage when they came over with the holiday, because the holiday were themselves the smallest of the houses.

[Sean Marchese]

Right. So, yeah, I don't, I don't see a version of the story in which the Druidyne, like spread out and filled. I don't think.

[Alan Sisto]

I don't think their style.

[Sean Marchese]

Right. I don't think that's their culture. I don't think that's what they're going to do, but they. There would be more of them, I'm sure.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah. Ooh, that is a hard, hard hitting question when you realize that the reason there would be more Druidyne is simply because the good guys weren't there. Because even the good guys aren't always good.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah. Yeah, that's a good point.

[Alan Sisto]

Good question, Neil. Thank you. All right, who else is next here in the second round?

[Sean Marchese]

All right, next up is going to be Kevin.

[Kevin]

All right. Obviously, you know, Fingolfin was too busy to come back to Middle Earth because he's waiting for Eyol and Feanol to get out of the Halls of Mando so he can have some, you know, feed him some knuckle sandwiches. So yeah, they had to send Glorfindel instead. You know, unfortunately they couldn't send the best stuff. Obligatory thing often mentioned. But anyway, so what we see that Gandalf, once he becomes Gandalf the White after his resurrection by arrow, he is more easily able to fulfill his purpose that he was originally sent over from Amon to do. Given that Glorfindel appears so scantly in the totality of the Lord of the Rings, you know, we don't really get to know what happens with him after the fall of the tower. He's not mentioned anywhere. It's like, you know, does he end up staying in Rivendell? Does he leave with Elrond? Does he stay with the sons of Elrond and Celeborn? Did he fulfill a purpose similar to Gandalf? And if so, what do you think that was? And kind of as a small follow up, what do you think happened with him after the. After the end of the Power of the Ring?

[Alan Sisto]

I like that, that speculation question about what. What happened to Glorfindel? I sort of picture him in his retirement years. He's sort of like, you know, you guys go on.

[Tom]

I've.

[Alan Sisto]

I've already killed a Balrog. I'm good. I'm just. I'm just chilling here in Rivendell, reading books.

[Sean Marchese]

I died saving air Andil.

[Alan Sisto]

Once you. Once one of you has topped that, I will come and help out. So yeah, you know, yeah, he's. No, I mean in seriousness, I mean, he's going to be clearly one of Elrond's chief advisors. You know, anytime he's in Rivendell, he's not. I don't think he's serving a role. I think the thing to. So it's a really interesting comparison, the Gandalf and Glorfindel. But I think the difference is that we have to look at who they are to begin with. I mean, like Glorfindel is definitely a powerful elf and he's a powerful elf because he's seen the trees.

[Sean Marchese]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, it's the same reason Galadriel is a powerful elf. You might even argue Glorfindel is more powerful than Elrond. But Elrond has a ring, so that helps. Gandalf, on the other hand, is a Maya spirit. So he's an entirely different, different degree of being. So even with Glorfindel upgraded as he was, he's still not even Gandalf the gray level, let alone Gandalf the white level. So in terms of the tasks and the jobs that they have to do, Gandalf's literally sent with a mission. He has a task. He is a messenger. He is an. What's the word in Greek, Sean? Angelos.

[Sean Marchese]

Angelos, yeah. Angelos. Messenger.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. So I think the distinction has to be made there before we really look too much too closely at what Glorfindel's doing. So I don't know that he necessarily has a job that he has to finish. He's welcome to exercise his free will and choose what he wants to do to the extent that an elf does, of course. Right.

[Sean Marchese]

I mean, isn't there something in some of the late writings of Glorfindel that says that he was sent to advise Elrond in the, well, Sauron thing?

[Alan Sisto]

In the Sauron thing. I love that.

[Sean Marchese]

And so I'm actually looking. This is near the beginning of the Glorfindel section of chapter 13, last writings. This is the version in Peoples of Middle Earth, which I just happen to have as one of my ebooks on my computer. So I was able to look it up here.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a handy book to have. Yeah, it is.

[Sean Marchese]

And again, this is one of those situations where there's different writings. They don't all necessarily line up completely with each other. But it does say that slip of paper on which my father, of course, Christopher, talking about his father, hastily set down some thoughts on the matter, presumably came between them. Oh, came between some manuscript pages since he said here that while Glorfindel might have come with Gandalf quote, it seems far more likely that he was sent in the crisis of the Second Age when Sauron invaded Eriador to assist Elrond. And that though not yet mentioned in the Annals recording Sauron's defeat and he played a notable and heroic part in the war.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay.

[Sean Marchese]

At the end of this note, he wrote the words Numenorean ship, presumably indicating how Glorfindel might have crossed the Great Sea. So.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, interesting.

[Sean Marchese]

And I know there's more there's support for the idea that Glorfindel was sent to help Elrond deal with Sauron as early as the Second Age.

[Alan Sisto]

To help Gil Galad and Elrond both. Right. To help the Elven King. Yeah, that's true.

[Sean Marchese]

Because Gil Galad would have been the king.

[Alan Sisto]

Gil Galad would have been the king.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah. Yeah. So I do think that by the time we see him in the Third Age, I think he is there for a purpose. And I think that once Sauron is defeated, I think that that purpose is done. He's able to go back to Valinor because I think that's the purpose he was sent for. I agree with you, Alan. I think he has a very different fate from Gandalf at that point, obviously. But his reward for completing that mission is going to be to go back to the Undying Lands and get to live out the rest of his serially longeval existence there in Valinor having done what he's done.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, I also want to kind of, for the record, he'd already done some things in the Third Age too, right? He's the one who helped with the defeat of the Witch King of Angmar. He's the one who, you know, prophesied that, you know, he's not going to fall by the hand of man. So he's very important, even in the Third Age. But that's earlier in the Third Age, he does have a task here. It's still, I think, to help Elrond. I mean, remember, Elrond's the one who sent him out to look for the ring bearer when Frodo and Aragorn and everybody was coming. Because of course, he knew that Gorfindor would be able to stand up against the Ringwraiths if they were there, which, and they were, you know. So I think that's an important part of it. If we remember correctly, he also was the one who, dude, with his sword that looked like it was a flaming sword Callback drove the, the Nazgul into the river. You know, that they, it that's what caused all of them to end up losing their horses and their, their clothing and having to go back and get, you know, new outfits, I guess.

[Sean Marchese]

But I need a change of clothes. I wasn't expecting to go swimming.

[Alan Sisto]

It's like when my son comes back from, from, you know, school and he's like, I, I, I needed. It's third period. Son, what are you doing home? Well, you know, I had PE and my clothes are wrecked or whatever. I Don't know. That hasn't happened, thankfully. I'm not trying to embarrass my son,

[Sean Marchese]

but when it does, you're going to have the perfect Middle Earth analogy for.

[Alan Sisto]

I'll be. I'll be ready with a metaphor also, I believe. And I'd have to double check the text, but I think he's mentioned as accompanying Elrond and Arwen to the wedding. To the wedding of Elessar. So we see him there, but then there's nothing more. And I think at that point, you know, we know that he must have left before Celeborn, because it's Celeborn who. It said that when he leaves, the last memories of the Elder Days went with him. That was in the prologue. So if that's the case, then we know he either left with or before Celeborn, because he certainly would have had memories of the Elder Days.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, right.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. More so than anybody else in Middle Earth, even more than Celeborn. So I. Yeah, that's. That's about it. But, yeah, there's no doubt he was upgraded. No doubt he had a job. It's just. I don't know that the job was as active at the end of the Third Age as Gandalf's. It was just to assist Elrond.

[Sean Marchese]

Right?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Good stuff.

[Sean Marchese]

I think it was just like, hey, this is a good guy to have.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, he's a great guy to have.

[Sean Marchese]

This is a good guy to have on the chessboard. All right. We, you know, we don't want to. We don't want to not have this,

[Alan Sisto]

but not to send out with the company. I mean, you know, Elrond made it very clear, like, if we're trying to stay under the radar, sending Glorfindel is a bad idea.

[Sean Marchese]

Right.

[Tom]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

This is as. As clear a sign.

[Sean Marchese]

Even though he could have, like, stormed Mordor and been like, that's right. Come at me, bro.

[Alan Sisto]

Bring it on, man.

[Sean Marchese]

You got. You got another Balrog, Sauron, Come on. I'll take. You know, I'll take your Balrogs. And, you know, he could have.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, his horse has bells on it, you know, and. And that's just not stealthy. It's.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

So good stuff. Great question. A lot of fun. I. I really enjoyed that one. Sean. I think we have time for one more quick question, but just one.

[Sean Marchese]

Okay. Our last one is. John.

[Alan Sisto]

John, welcome back. All right, I'd like you guys to do a brief skit.

[Sean Marchese]

That's all the time we have, folks. Thank you very much.

[Alan Sisto]

Thanks for Joining us for another episode of Bread. It involves Arendelle and Ar Pharazon. Arendelle comes down and confronts our Farazan before he lands in the Undying Lands. Okay, obviously, you're Earendel. Okay, so you come down to confront me right as I'm getting off my boat.

[Sean Marchese]

So I'm driving my boat. Do. To do. To do to do. Is that somebody in my parking spot? What is this? That is a big ship.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Bigger ship than yours.

[Sean Marchese]

Hey, you can't park here. Who are you?

[Alan Sisto]

I can park anywhere I want. I am the Lord of the West. I am the King of the world. At least, that's what Sauron tells me.

[Sean Marchese]

You don't want to say that too loud here, do you? Say, Lord of the West.

[Alan Sisto]

Why not?

[Sean Marchese]

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Did you just call yourself King of the world?

[Alan Sisto]

If it's true, why not?

[Sean Marchese]

Come here. Come here, son. Come here.

[Alan Sisto]

And I guess I should, because you really are my great, great great grandfather.

[Kevin]

Right?

[Sean Marchese]

What's your name?

[Alan Sisto]

Ar Pharazon.

[Sean Marchese]

I don't speak that language. What is that? I don't know that.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, let's see.

[Sean Marchese]

I've been watching you. You're my great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great grandson.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes. And you might know me better, Kal.

[Sean Marchese]

You chose your name. You're sticking with it.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Son of Light.

[Sean Marchese]

And you, get that language out of your mouth, okay? Now, come here. Come here. And I put my arm around you lovingly, grandson. Do you see that mountain up there?

[Alan Sisto]

I do. I do. I'm going to own that mountain really tall.

[Sean Marchese]

Have you ever seen a mountain that tall before?

[Alan Sisto]

No, I've not. And I'm so happy that I get to add it to my collection.

[Sean Marchese]

Here's the thing. It belongs to somebody already.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, of course it does, but I'll just take it.

[Sean Marchese]

No, no, no, no, no, no. You see the castle at the top of that impossibly high mountain?

[Alan Sisto]

My eyes aren't so great anymore. No. I can't quite see it.

[Sean Marchese]

Well, there's a guy up there who actually is king of the world. And if he hears you talking like that, you're gonna be in so much trouble. And here's the thing. Here's the thing. No, no, no, no. Here's the thing. He was at my birthday party.

[Alan Sisto]

So what I hear you saying is, he's really old.

[Sean Marchese]

Oh, man, you made me break character.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, I've been breaking character this whole time. That was good. That was good.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, but he's my friend, and you don't want to be heard talking like that. You're going to be in a lot of trouble. And unless you've got a flying boat like this one, you're not going to be able to go up there and talk to him about it yourself, are you?

[Alan Sisto]

Well, no, but he can come down here. I've got an army ready to meet him.

[Sean Marchese]

Alan, you do blasphemy so well. It's great.

[Alan Sisto]

So much fun.

[Sean Marchese]

All right, well, you want me to go get him?

[Tom]

Sure.

[Alan Sisto]

I've got a huge army here just waiting to have something to do. It's huge. Biggest army you've ever seen.

[Sean Marchese]

You stay here. I'm just gonna walk over here and I'm gonna make sure that I am not downstream from this mountain, because that's

[Alan Sisto]

probably a good idea because we're gonna be kicking some butt. You know, we're. I'm here to. To. You know, the thing is, I am here to kick butt and chew bubblegum and, man, I am all out of bubble gum. So bring them on down. I've been. I've been calling. If nobody is here to fight for this land, that. I'm just gonna take it. It's mine.

[Sean Marchese]

All right, well, I'm gonna get back in my flying boat because I feel a little tremor and I don't want to be here.

[Alan Sisto]

I think that might just be my army getting off the ships.

[Sean Marchese]

Probably. That's probably all it is. Probably all it is. We don't usually get earthquakes here, so it's probably fine.

[Alan Sisto]

But that's good to know. All right, thanks.

[Sean Marchese]

Back in my flying boat and you let me know how that goes.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay. You take care. I'll let you know when I've taken over the rest of the world because I am the king of it, as you know.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

All right. All right, see you around.

[Sean Marchese]

I'll see you at the Dagger. Daggeroth.

[Alan Sisto]

The what now? Perfect.

[Sean Marchese]

I love it.

[Alan Sisto]

That was fun. Oh, folks, thank you so much for joining us for another episode of the Prancing Pony podcast. Please come back next week when Sean and I begin our three episode look at the Estarine from Unfinished Tales.

[Sean Marchese]

Oh, that's going to be a lot of fun. I'm really looking forward to it. And we're going to get into some more, I don't know, some more cool deep cuts. So about that. But for now, Alan and I want to thank the members of Team ppp. That's our editor, Jordan Renels, our Barlaman Becca Davis, social media manager Casey Hilsey, Event and Patreon community coordinator Katie McKenna, graphic artist Matt, Megan Collins and website guru Phil Dean.

[Alan Sisto]

Please take a minute to check out theprancingponypodcast.com that's where you'll find show notes, outtakes and Prancing Pony ponderings. You'll also find our online storefront where you can get all sorts of cool PPP merch, including the incredible chapter art that Megan's been doing for us for more than three seasons.

[Sean Marchese]

Now, we're all about the books here at the Prancing Pony Podcast, so be sure to also visit our library page. We try to make sure that any book we've mentioned on the show is linked there for you to put purchase. And we do get a small amount of compensation when you make your purchase. So thank you for that.

[Alan Sisto]

Indeed. We also want to thank our patrons at the Kirdance contribution tier, few of whom are here. I'll start with Demay in Alaska, Chad in Texas, Joseph in Michigan, Kathy from North Carolina, Brian in the uk, Jerry from Washington, Irwin from the Netherlands, Ben in Minnesota, Anthony in Texas, Zaksu in Illinois, Joshua in Massachusetts, Lucy in Texas, Eric the in in Texas, James in Massachusetts, Ann in Kentucky and Sean in New Jersey.

[Sean Marchese]

And there's Mason in California, Maureen from Massachusetts, Olivia in London, Robert in Arizona, Nick in Wisconsin, Lewis in South Carolina, Thomas in Germany, Craig in California, Kevin in Massachusetts, Joe in Maryland, D Scott in California, Jeffrey in Michigan, Paul in Colorado, David from Connecticut and Theresa Teresa from Texas. Thank you very much indeed.

[Alan Sisto]

Thank you.

[Sean Marchese]

And make sure you don't miss any episodes of the Prancing Pony Podcast. Subscribe now through Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or your favorite podcast app.

[Alan Sisto]

And one last thing. As always, don't forget to send your thoughts, comments, and most of all, your skit rewrites to [e-mail] I'm sure we

[Sean Marchese]

need to workshop that one a little.

[Alan Sisto]

We do. We definitely improv. Improv. We need to get a little better.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, Barlow does have a lot of mail to sort through though, so we'll try to get to you just as soon as we're able to.

[Alan Sisto]

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