419 – A Voice In the Wilderness

Summary

The Prancing Pony Podcast – Episode 419 “A Voice In the Wilderness”

Date: June 28, 2026
Theme: An exploration of the Istari (Wizards) in Tolkien’s legendarium, focusing on their origins, nature, purpose, and the chapter “The Istari” from Unfinished Tales. Features Alan Sisto (A) and returning co-host Shawn E. Marchese (B) in a reunion of classic Prancing Pony banter, lore-deep discussion, and trademark humor.

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Alan and Shawn kickoff a three-part dive into the Istari, Tolkien’s order of wizards, as presented in Unfinished Tales. The hosts explore the origins and true nature of the Istari, examine their role and limitations in Middle-earth, and reflect on their incarnate forms, including the precariousness and fallibility that came with flesh. The conversation follows both the academic underpinnings in Tolkien’s drafts as well as its application in the broader legendarium—and, inevitably, meanders happily into bad puns, garden gnome jokes, fan experiences, and the enduring community spirit among Tolkien readers.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Welcome Back, Shawn & Tolkien Collector’s Guide News

• [03:53] Alan greets Shawn, noting his return as a co-host for the first time in years. Shawn updates listeners on his work with the Tolkien Collector’s Guide (including the epic project to catalogue all known Tolkien letters) and its recent 20th anniversary.
• [04:33] The significance of unpublished Tolkien letters and the challenges deciphering Tolkien’s handwriting, especially with Tengwar and ancient Greek.

  "You'd be surprised which libraries and universities have Tolkien letters in their archives." — Shawn [06:02]

• Tolkien Collector’s Guide is celebrated for being nominated for the Tolkien Society Award for Best Online Content.

2. Community, Scholarship & "Found Folklore"

• [09:32] Shawn discusses participation in the Tolkien Society’s “Big Read”—a bi-weekly, member-led readalong with scholarly talks by various Tolkienites.

  “I am presenting the session on November 16th... the end of the Lord of the Rings, appendices A through D and the epilogue...” — Shawn [11:31]

• [13:14] Shawn previews his new Substack project, focusing on the concept of “found folklore”—not just how Tolkien manufactured a mythology, but how Tolkien’s work provides modern readers with a kind of "chosen" folklore or "chosen family," forming a core part of the Tolkien community’s cultural identity.

  “...for some of us, Tolkien’s work is more real, more cultural, more a marker of community for me than anything I grew up with.” — Shawn [15:00]

3. Introduction to the Istari in Unfinished Tales

• [18:39] Alan and Shawn begin their close reading of the Unfinished Tales “The Istari” chapter. The discussion includes:
  • The etymology of "wizard" as a translation of “Istar” (Quenya) and “Ithron” (Sindarin)—both literally, “one who knows.”
  • Tolkien’s use of “wizard” despite its imperfect connection with the order of the Istari versus the typical folkloric magicians.

  “Who do you think he has in mind here in terms of like... magicians and wizards?” — Alan [28:10]

Notable Quote

“Wise very much being the root of the English word wizard connects with Istar, being one who knows.” — Alan [25:46]

• The order of the Istari is not a generic word for all “wizards”—they are specifically the five who came in the Third Age.

4. Origins, Purpose, and Limitations of the Wizards

• [36:31] The Istari first appear around Third Age 1000, going about in humble guise as “men already old in years, but hale in body.” They are slow to reveal their power or purpose until Sauron’s shadow re-emerges.

  “For a long time, men thought that the wizards were just other men...knowledgeable masters...” — Shawn [35:15]

• They are Maiar—angelic spirits of Valinor—embodied in true, mortal flesh, not merely clad in a "raiment." This incarnation brings both weariness and knowledge loss, making them subject to temptation and frailty.

  "[The Valar] sent members of their own high order, but clad in bodies as of men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of Earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain..." — Alan (reading) [51:17]

• The Valar sent the Istari after failing to properly guide the Elves, this time choosing a humble, persuasive path without open displays of power.

  “Their job is...to unite in love and understanding all those whom Sauron...would endeavor to dominate and corrupt.” — Alan [64:05]

Insight

• Discuss the rationale for their limitations: humility and relatability are key to kindling hope and unity, rather than intimidating mortals through majesty or might.

5. The Five Chiefs and Guesswork on Others

• [65:15] The text reveals “the chiefs were five,” but hints that there may have been other lesser wizards in other parts of Middle-earth.
  • Saruman (Curunír): Head of the Order, in white, skilled hand, ‘fair voice’, “regarded by all...as the head.”
  • The Two Blues: Pass into the East and are not heard of again. “Whether they remained in the East...or perished, or as some hold, were ensnared by Sauron...is not now known.”
  • Radagast (brown): Cares for beasts, but ultimately fails by focusing on animals to the neglect of elves and men.
  • Gandalf (the Grey): Last and “seemed the least,” but revealed by Círdan to be the greatest in spirit, given the ring Narya. Notably shorter and older in appearance than the others.

Notable Quote

“Only Círdan, from their first meeting at the Grey Havens, divined in him the greatest spirit and the wisest." — Alan (reading) [51:37]

• [67:50] Discussion of Tolkien’s tantalizing implication that there might be “more out there,” only the five are the chiefs of the North; perhaps others were sent elsewhere.
  • Alan and Shawn riff on the tantalizing gap, as only the “Northern story” gets any narrative development.

6. Fate and Fallibility of the Wizards

• [89:30] Even as incarnate angelic beings, the Istari can fail—indeed, the text suggests they are more likely than not, as flesh is inherently “corruptible.” This is tied to Tolkien’s theological themes and his conception of Arda Marred.

Notable Quotes

"Being embodied, the Istari had need to learn much anew by slow experience...the memory of the blessed Realm was to them a vision from afar off." — Alan (reading) [81:55]

"To do evil, forgetting the good in the search for the power to effect it." — B [89:31]
(Discussed as a core Tolkienian insight—parallels made to characters like Boromir and Denethor.)

• [97:46] The longing for Valinor serves as a sort of “moral compass” for the Istari:

  "If I no longer yearn to go to Valinor, I am off track." — Alan [97:45]

7. Gandalf's Special Role and Christ-like Echoes

• [111:19] Gandalf’s wanderings, humility, fire symbolism, and resistance to pride make him the only wizard to pass the test “on a moral plane, anyway.” Parallels are drawn to the Christian theme of the “suffering servant,” with Gandalf’s self-sacrifice, exile, resurrection (by Eru’s authority) and humility highlighted.

Notable Quotes

"[Gandalf] was the enemy of Sauron, opposing the fire that devours and wastes, with the fire that kindles and succors in wanhope and distress." — Alan (reading) [119:19]

“He suffered greatly and was slain. And being sent back from death for a brief while was clothed then in white and became a radiant flame, yet veiled still, save in great need.” — Alan (reading) [111:30]

• Gandalf’s humility and refusal to take power for himself is contrasted with Denethor, Saruman, and others who succumbed to pride.
• His “wanhope” succor is explained (wanhope = total despair, to kindle hope in despair’s absence).

  “Gandalf is here to help you to kindle hope for those who have the opposite of it. It’s beautiful.” — Shawn [117:24]

8. Fate of the Wizards Post-Quest

• [128:21] Gandalf alone returns to Valinor after Sauron’s defeat, having completed his task; Saruman’s spirit is blown away and “never comes back to Middle-earth, incarnate or otherwise.” Discussion of Saruman’s pride, his downfall mirroring Melkor.

  “He just can't—Saruman just cannot get over the fact that he was not born Gandalf.” — Shawn [78:04]

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Notable Moments & Quotes

• [30:12–31:20] Hilarious garden gnome riff imagining Feanor as a gnome burning pool floaties.
• [43:09] “Now Saruman and Gandalf are fighting in Orthanc and Saruman’s like, there could be only one.” Referencing Highlander.
• [64:05] “To seek to unite in love and understanding all those whom Sauron would look to dominate and corrupt.” — Alan reading the core purpose of the Istari.
• [75:57] Three variant versions of Círdan’s words to Gandalf about Narya are compared.
• [119:24] “He was not proud and sought neither power nor praise. And thus far and wide he was beloved among all those that were not themselves proud mostly.” — Alan (reading)
• [131:00] On Tolkien’s narrative choice to never write from Gandalf’s POV: “He tries to write from the perspective of the character who knows the least.” — Alan

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Timestamps: Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment Description | |-----------|----------------------| | 02:03–04:33 | Host greetings, introduction, Shawn’s work with Tolkien Collector’s Guide | | 09:32–12:38 | The “Big Read” and Tolkien Society involvement | | 13:14–18:24 | Shawn’s new Substack and “found folklore” as a concept | | 18:39–21:13 | Introduction to “The Istari” in Unfinished Tales | | 34:16–38:07 | Nature and purpose of Istari, arrival dates, blending in with mortals | | 49:17–52:11 | Their true origins: Maiar, incarnate, sent by Valar, given limitations | | 65:15–68:08 | Enumeration of the Five Chiefs, possibility of others outside the northern narrative | | 75:18–77:53 | Círdan giving Gandalf Narya and Saruman’s jealousy | | 83:52–84:59 | The Blue Wizards—disappearance, ambiguity, rumors, possible failure | | 89:30–94:46 | Fallibility of the Istari, concept of doing evil by forgetting the good | | 97:46–100:19 | Yearning for Valinor as moral compass, enduring exile for the sake of mission | | 111:19–114:31 | Gandalf’s humility, kindness, “fire that kindles,” and transformation | | 128:21–129:23 | Saruman’s spirit rejected, theorizing what happened after his death | | 131:00–135:06 | Mailbag: Why isn’t Gandalf given POV chapters? Discussion of Tolkien’s narrative device |

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Overall Tone

Casual, scholarly, warm, and witty. Alan and Shawn model the ideal pub-chat: welcoming, funny, sometimes irreverent, but always insightful and deeply respectful of the source material, often pushing each other to pick apart philological, narrative, and thematic questions.

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For Newcomers

Even if you’ve never read Unfinished Tales, this episode will provide deep insight into Tolkien’s vision of wizards, clarify their place in the larger legendarium, and highlight how Tolkien’s moral and theological themes permeate even the secondary details. Alan and Shawn illuminate the “found folklore” radical potential of Tolkien’s work—not just as art, but as living tradition among fans.

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Further Reading & References

• Unfinished Tales, “The Istari” chapter
• Tolkien’s Letters, especially Letters 156 and 211
• Discussion of “wanhope” in Middle English (wan- as “without” or “un-”)
• John D. Rateliff’s The History of the Hobbit (Radagast’s etymology)
• The Tolkien Collector’s Guide (tolkienguide.com)
• Shawn’s new Substack on “Found Folklore”

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Episode ends with community announcements, Patreon thanks, and the promise of more wizardly lore in next week’s continuation on the Istari.

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Transcript

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

I'm gonna give it a try. Wish me luck.

[B]

Me again. I put in the license plate. It gave me an offer.

[A]

Unbelievable.

[B]

Okay, I accepted the offer. They're picking it up Tuesday from the driveway.

[A]

I haven't even left my chair.

[B]

It's done. The car is gone.

[A]

I'm holding a check anyway. Carvana, give it a whirlwind. Love you. So good you'll want to leave a voicemail about it.

[B]

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[A]

Good evening, little masters, and welcome to episode 419 of the Prancing Pony podcast, where the hosts of this show have long gone about in simple guise and, as it were, men already old in years.

[B]

Speak for yourself, Alan. Already old in years. I mean, I'm still partly hale in body here, but fair enough. Well, folks, pull up a bench in the common room and join us. I'm Sean Marchese, the Lord of the mark, and I'm here with the man of the west who reveals to none his powers and purposes. Alan Sisto.

[A]

Well, that assumes I have either one, let alone both. Folks, join us as the Valar finally do Middle Earth a solid. And we begin our three episode look the order of those who know better, known as the Istari in Unfinished Tales.

[B]

Valar doing Middle Earth a solid first thought is like, what could possibly go wrong? But

[A]

now I got a David Letterman Top 10 list. Yeah, right.

[B]

Yeah, right. Top 10 reasons the Valar shouldn't meddle in anything that's apparently within the sphere of their control. Anyway, folks, no matter whether you came to Middle Earth through the books, the films, the TV show, or something else, each of you is welcome here in our common room. The Prancing Pony Podcast continues in our 10th season of Reading and talking our way through Middle Earth with conversations, digressions, and even speculations.

[A]

And with you here, we can definitely include a few puns and bad jokes here and there, but our purpose is to dive deep into the lore, to discuss the story, our favorite characters, the to talk about our favorite themes, Tolkien's inspirations, and a whole lot more.

[B]

And while we take the work seriously, the same can't be said about ourselves. We're just a couple of old friends chatting at the pub, and we're really glad you've joined us, and I'm sure

[A]

you'll be glad you joined as well. But before we get to today's chapter discussion, it's time to catch up with my co host and good friend, Sean. Now, it has been nearly two years and far too long since you were last on as a. Well, as a real co host for a. For a book episode. You were on with me to chat with the Weta guys back at the beginning of this season, as a matter of fact. But you know, it's been a long time since we've covered Lord of the Rings or anything like that. It's been over two years. So I'm. I'm wanting to find out what you've been doing in the Tolkien world since. I mean, I understand that you've connected with the folks over at the Tolkien Collector's Guide. Can you catch us up a little bit with what you've been working on there?

[B]

Yeah. Wow. There's a lot to talk about there, actually. So for a few months now, I've been part of the team at Tolkien Collector's Guide that's working on the guide to Tolkien's letters. So that's a new guide we've got on the site, a newish guide. It's been up there for a Little while now. But it is a massive reference project that's documenting information about basically about any letter that we know was written by Tolkien or to Tolkien or even about Tolkien. And I think this is really important for people to know. You know, when we say written by Tolkien, there's a lot of stuff that's not published in Humphrey Carpenter's letters of J.R.R. tolkien, even the new edition.

[A]

Right. I was about to ask that. Yeah. There's still a lot of unpublished content.

[B]

There's a lot of unpublished content that we've got information about in our guide. Now, we don't own the copyrights to these letters, so we don't actually publish the letters themselves. We can't do that. But we do have notes on the content of the letters. We have information about where they've been quoted or referenced in scholarly work. Some of that's work in progress. There's a lot of stuff to, you know, I mean, we're going and finding, like, this is referenced in Vineyard Tenguar number three. Like, that kind of stuff.

[A]

Oh, man.

[B]

And information about, like, where you can find them. And I have to say, Alan, if I may, I mean, like, yeah, this is fascinating. You'd be surprised which libraries and universities have Tolkien letters in their archives.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Oh, yeah. We've actually got five of them here in Austin at the University of Texas. Yep.

[A]

That is so cool. Yep. Are they something you can go see? Are you able to go, like, talk to the archivist and say, may I see this letter?

[B]

Oh, yeah. Yeah, I've seen them all. So back in 1980, there was an article in Mythlore about three of the letters that were there. I actually went looking for those in the archives at ut, and I found two other ones in addition to those three.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

So, yeah, so now we've got information about those in the guide, so that's great. So that's pretty cool. And most of my work has been kind of helping the team decipher tough linguistic bits. I mean, we all know that Tolkien's handwriting was famously hard to read, but it's hard to read in English. When he's writing in Tengwar, or ancient Greek, it's even harder. And since I'm familiar with Greek and I'm familiar with, you know, Old English and Tengwar, I've been kind of helping the team get through some of that stuff. So it's been a lot of fun.

[A]

Right on.

[B]

We were super excited to be nominated for the Tolkien Society Award for Best Online Content for the guide to the letters, specifically.

[A]

Congratulations. On that.

[B]

Yeah, thank you. We're super excited about that. But it's a great resource and it's getting some, some well deserved recognition. And I would be remiss if I didn't mention that Tolkien Collector's Guide is actually turning 20 years old this year.

[A]

Oh my goodness, I didn't know that. 20 years.

[B]

20 years. And we've got a ton of great stuff planned for the anniversary. It's going to be a live stream in October. There's a guide to Tolkien calendars up there now. There's some additional stuff like that we're working on. There's an events page. And I mean, look, even if you're not a collector, there's so much cool stuff on Tolkien Collector's Guide. I would seriously recommend people go check it out. Tolkienguide.com well, I'm glad you're getting to

[A]

be a part of that. And I can't think of anybody better to help with some of those difficult linguistic things. So glad you're doing it.

[B]

Been a lot of fun.

[A]

I bet it has. The fact that you get to see the letters at the. Oh, that's just. I'm very happy for you. Also, I'm looking for an excuse to come visit Austin. I. All right.

[B]

Very cool.

[A]

Last December we were fortunate to have you deliver one of the keynote addresses for the 2025 PPP moot. It was fantastic. An absolute highlight of the event for our guests. Are you looking to write more MOOT presentations? Like what moots are you looking to attend or speak at in the next few years?

[B]

I have to be careful how I answer this one cause I'm gonna set expectations.

[A]

That's right. I'm boxing you in.

[B]

Yes, I do hope to speak at more Moots in the coming years. I have a lot of fun doing it and it's just a matter of time and finding the right thing. I'm planning to attend some Moots by the time this comes out. I will have attended Westmoot in Minneapolis. That's coming up in a couple of weeks. So glad they're doing that in Minneapolis in May, not in January.

[A]

Yeah, that's a fair point.

[B]

But I'm just attending that one. I'm not speaking at that one. I'd like to attend Oxenmut later this year. I'm not going to be able to make it there in person, but I would like to attend online and maybe I'll submit something. We'll see. I can't promise anything yet, but Oxymood Online is always a fun one. The Tolkien Society is usually good about doing a lot of cool stuff for the online attendees. Kind of like you guys, like you and Katie have done with your moots. I mean. Yeah, well, that's the thing.

[A]

I mean, we feel like everybody should be able to take part, so.

[B]

Yeah. Yep.

[A]

All right. Well, you know, with one of those being a Tolkien Society moot. Oxa moot. One other thing the Tolkien Society has been up to recently is putting together this thing called the Big Re. I saw on my Big Read calendar that you are going to be presenting on that as well. Tell our listeners what the Big Read is and how you got involved in it.

[B]

This is a really exciting one. I'm super, super honored to be a part of this. So the Big Read is. It's a new read along program, basically like an online book club. It's open to all Tolkien Society members and it's free. If you're a Tolkien Society member, it's free to join. Basically what we're doing is every two weeks, folks are meeting to discuss 5 to 7 ish chapters of Tolkien's works. And each meeting has a guest presenter who's doing a brief talk about something in that set of chapters. So for example, the first session was in April. It was presented by Eric Jompa Anderson and he led the group through On Fairy Stories because, hey, On Fairy Stories is a good place to start.

[A]

We sure do know that.

[B]

Yeah. Second session was presented by Claire Moore. She led the discussion on the first few chapters of the Hobbit and she talked about some of the differences in narration between the Hobbit and some of Tolkien's other works.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Eric and Claire, by the way, are the two sort of hosts of the overall event.

[A]

Yes. Yeah.

[B]

With Eric coordinating the Europe sessions and Claire coordinating the America sessions. And we've got. Each session is held at two different times. One for, you know, one for folks in Europe and one for folks in America. Each of the guest presenters is a different scholar or content creator. So we're getting a lot of different good perspectives in there. Good man. There's some great names in here. I mean, we've got. John Ratliff is doing one of the Hobbit sessions.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Christine Larson, Sara Brown, Robert Talley, Tom Hillman. Oh, wow. Demetrafimi. And then there's me. So.

[A]

Well, now I know why I didn't make the cut. I mean, good heavens, heavy hitters.

[B]

Still wondering how I did sometimes. But I am presenting the session on November 16th. I'm going to be presenting the end of the Lord of The Rings. And I'm actually doing appendices A through D and the epilogue, which is in.

[A]

Sauron defeated the unpublished epilogue. That's going to be neat.

[B]

Folks may be surprised that I'm not doing the language appendices. I'm not doing E or F. But

[A]

that is a shock.

[B]

They got Andrew Higgins to do those, so I can't really argue with that.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, that's fair.

[B]

So, yeah, how I got invited. They reached out, they said, you know, hey, we're curious if you got time to do this. We'd love to have you. I thought about it for about six seconds and I said, yeah, I was

[A]

gonna say that's definitely a yes. Right on.

[B]

So, yeah, I'm excited. I hope folks will join us. Yeah. If you're a Tolkien Society member, it's free to join. Just visit the website and in the members area, you'll find a big button for the big read, and you can join us there. And I. And all the presenter talks are recorded. So, you know, by this point, folks have missed the first few. But that's okay. You can go back and watch those.

[A]

And we've always said from. From very early on here at the PPP that the Tolkien Society is a great resource. You should definitely be a member if you're a Tolkien fan.

[B]

Definitely.

[A]

Lots of value. You get the Amon Hen, you get their. Their annual journal, the Mallorn, and of course, then you get events like this. So, yeah.

[B]

All right.

[A]

Well, I know that you have been working on some more writing, and I've always. Your writing has always been great. I've always enjoyed reading what you put together.

[B]

Oh, thank you.

[A]

You know, I think back even to those. Those early Prancing Pony ponderings that we did. I wish we had more bandwidth and time to do those. But, yeah, you've been looking at a way to connect with the larger Tolkien community again through your writing. Talk to us about your new substack.

[B]

Yeah, no, thank you for asking about it, Alan. Really appreciate it. And it's. It's funny because it was kind of thinking back to the old Prancing Pony ponderings that I was like, I kind of want to get back to something like that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Now, this project is so new that I don't even have the first post up yet on the day we're recording this, but it will be up by the time this podcast comes out.

[A]

That's right. We're recording this way out of sequence just because of our schedule. So you have a long time before this one comes out. You'll be able to get it out.

[B]

But I have been doing some writing and I've been starting to kind of develop some ideas, and I've decided substack is the place for that.

[A]

Good.

[B]

And, you know, while I'll be doing, you know, some word nerdery and stuff like that that people would expect, the main idea that I'm really starting to think about is one that I'm calling found folklore. And this sort of means two things for me. One is the way that Tolkien wrote his legendarium in a way that emulates or feels like a real world mythology or folklore, or that he links to the real world mythology or folklore. So this is things like the way he uses frame narrative or, you know, references to the Atlantis myth or allusions to Beowulf, stuff like that. All that stuff that he uses to make his secondary world feel like something that actually happened. Cause he's connecting it to the primary world in this sense. You know, found folklore, quote, unquote, is kind of like, you know, the idea that Tolkien found this, he discovered this folklore, and he's translating it for us. Huge shout out to Mike Drought, who has made some incredible insights on this in the Tower and the Ruin. So this is an idea that a lot of people have written about, and recently, you know, a lot of people are doing some really good scholarship on it. But if I find something that I think adds meaningfully to what others have done before me, I will explore it on my substack. But it's the second meaning of found folklore that is kind of the more compelling one to me. And that's the ways in which Tolkien's legendarium occupies kind of a similar place in our lives to what folklore might have done for earlier generations. Ah. What I mean is, you know, Tolkien fans, people listening to this podcast, we all come from different backgrounds. We all have different perspectives. A lot of us don't share cultural roots with each other or even with other people in our lives. And that's not a bad thing. I mean, that diversity is good. It's part of what makes the world a better place. But I'm fascinated by the degree to which Tolkien's works transcend those cultural differences. And I think for some of us, and I feel like, me personally, I feel like in some ways, Tolkien's work is more real, is more cultural, is more of even a marker of community for me than anything I grew up with. And so that's where I really want to explore this idea of found folklore. Almost like the idea of, you might talk about Somebody's found family or a chosen family.

[A]

Okay. Yeah.

[B]

It's like. It's the folklore that we choose as our own, as a marker of our identity. I think I've probably talked about this years ago when we first started the show.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

When I first became a dad, me and my kids were little. The stories I wanted to tell my kids were stories from the Silmarillion. Yeah.

[A]

Because like.

[B]

Like Jack and the Beanstalk. No, we're talking Beren and Luthien today.

[A]

That's right. That's right.

[B]

That felt like my folklore. And I think a lot of Tolkien fans have had a similar experience.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

So I'm hoping to write about that as well, and that's going to give me a chance to get a little bit more personal and a little bit more, I don't know, reflective.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In addition to some scholars, scholarly stuff that I'll put in.

[A]

I really like that. And, you know, you mentioned how sort of transcends those cultural differences in the Tolkien fandom. And the first thing that came to my mind is more so in the Tolkien fandom than in just about any other fandom I've ever been a part of. It feels like we have such. You talk about that diversity being a strength, and it is because our community, and not just the PPP community, but the Tolkien community as a whole, feels so much more diverse in all of those ways, geographically and nationally, ethnically, linguistically, religiously, politically, all of those things. It stretches out and crosses over all those boundaries in a way that a lot of other fandoms maybe have a harder time with that tend to be a little bit more homogenous. And I really think you're going to have a great time looking at that. I'm excited to read what you write. Yeah.

[B]

That's my hope. And, you know, it's not to say that the fandom couldn't use more diversity.

[A]

Oh, of course.

[B]

And, you know, we certainly need to make room for as many different voices as we can. This is just my voice, and I'm just going to be talking about how it's helped me connect with other people. It has. So I'm looking forward to that.

[A]

It's my home. Yeah, I get it.

[B]

For sure. For sure. And it just feels. It just feels like ours, doesn't it? You know, I mean, you and I connected over this. We became friends because of our love of these works. And.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't know. I think it's going to be a lot of fun.

[A]

So I'm excited.

[B]

I haven't posted anything yet, but by the time this comes out there should be one or two posts out there. So would love it if folks hearing this would go check it out. Be one of my first subscribers. I'm out there on Sean emarkesy.substack.com right on.

[A]

Well, let's go ahead and get into the Istari. So folks, just to kind of give you a heads up, we're going to try to do the Istari in three episodes, saving a couple of episodes at the end of the season for the Palantiri, but who knows how things will actually go. For now though, let's start with the beginning of the chapter on the Astari. Sean, would you take us away?

[B]

Sure, because I haven't talked enough in this podcast, but thank you for letting me start wizard is a translation of Quenya Istaran Ithron, one of the members of an order, as they called it, claiming to possess and exhibiting eminent knowledge of the history and nature of the world. The translation, though suitable in its relation to wise and other ancient words, of knowing similar to that of Istar and Quenya, is not perhaps happy, since the Heran Istarion, or Order of Wizards, was quite distinct from the wizards and magicians of later legend. They belonged solely to the Third Age, and then departed, and none, save maybe Elrond, Cirdan, and Galadriel, discovered of what kind they were, or whence they came among men. They were supposed at first, by those that had dealings with them, to be men who had acquired lore and arts by long and secret study. They first appeared in Middle Earth about the year 1000 of the third Age, but for long they went about in simple guise, as it were, of men already old in years, but hale in body, travelers and wanderers, gaining knowledge of Middle Earth and all that dwelt therein, but revealing to none their powers and purposes. In that time men saw them seldom, and heeded them little but as the shadow of Sauron began to grow and take shape again, they became more active, and sought ever to contest the growth of the shadow, and to move elves and men to beware of their peril. Then far and wide rumor of their comings and goings, and their meddling in many matters was noised among men, and men perceived that they did not die, but remained the same, unless it were that they aged somewhat in looks, while the fathers and sons of men passed away. Men therefore grew to fear them, even when they loved them, and they were held to be of the Elven race, with whom indeed they often consorted.

[A]

Thank you for that reading, Sean. Now, we did skip the very beginning. It was just a brief introduction from Christopher explaining that the early parts of this chapter were written, he believes, in 1954, and we'll actually get through all of that 1954 content in today's episodes with the remaining notes left for the second and third episodes on the chapter.

[B]

That's right. And Christopher points us back to the introduction to Unfinished Tales first, and we should really start there. He begins there with something that seems entirely unrelated to Gandalf and Saruman and the rest, as he talks about the fact that once Lord of the Rings was accepted for publication, there should be an index at the end of the third volume.

[A]

He says, that's right. And he writes that the professor, quote, began to work on it in the summer of 1954, after the first two volumes had gone to press, writing Tolkien, that is, in letter 187 to H. Cotton mention, an index of names was to be produced, which, by etymological interpretation would also provide quite a large Elvish vocabulary. This is, of course, a first requirement. I worked at it for months and indexed the first two volumes. It was the chief cause of the delay of Return of the King until it became clear that size and cost were ruinous.

[B]

Which is precisely why there was no index for Lord of the Rings when it was first published.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In fact, there was no index until the second edition came out in 1966, which would have been more than 10 years after which Return of the King first hit the shelves. Now, with that said, Christopher tells us that my father's original rough draft of that index has been preserved. That's the work that he'd done in 1954.

[A]

That's right. And this index proved fruitful. Christopher says that using that index, he derived the plan of my index to the Silmarillion with translation of names and brief explanatory statements. But for our purposes today, what really matters is this. He writes. From it comes also the essay on the estari with which this section of the book opens. And by this section, Christopher means the fourth section that's not connected to any of the ages. If you look at the structure of Unfinished Tales, you've got first age, second age, third age, and then all the other stuff. This is the all the other stuff portion. So he continues saying that it is an entry wholly uncharacteristic of the original index in its length, if characteristic of the way in which my father often worked.

[B]

I think after 10 years of talking about these books, we understand exactly what

[A]

Christopher's Talking about there. No, we understand so much more than I did 10 years ago.

[B]

The way in which. Yeah, exactly. But, yes. So this one essay, which originally stemmed from Tolkien's efforts to create this Lord of the Rings index, this takes up the first quarter of the chapter, the Astari. So let's dive into it. In fact, you can actually see its origin as an index entry in the first line of the essay where it explains, that wizard is simply a translation

[A]

of two Elvish works, Quenya Istar and Sindarin Ithron, both of which are compounds that mean literally, one who knows.

[B]

That's right. And, you know, I'm not letting that stand without some word here.

[A]

Of course you're not. I would have been disappointed if you had.

[B]

So I thought I'd share with folks that the root of Istar, Istar, meaning one who knows. The root of that is ista, which means to know. Now, this is a very old Quenya word that goes back to Tolkien's earliest attempts at creating the language. This word actually goes back to the Quenya lexicon, which was written 1915. 1916.

[A]

One of his earliest. Absolute earliest.

[B]

Yes, earliest stuff that he wrote on Quenya. And as Christopher Gilson discussed in a 2020 paper that was published in Tolkien Studies 17, the paper is titled He Constructed a Language L and Another ll Diachronic Aspects of Tolkien's Early Philology.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Which is a title that excites me. I'll say.

[A]

Not very many other people would, but.

[B]

Yeah, but no, Chris is fantastic.

[A]

He is.

[B]

And this is an amazing paper. But in this paper, Gilson talks about the fact that Tolkien's real world linguistic influences. So, you know, think, you know, Latin, Old English, Finnish, Welsh, all the languages that influenced his. His constructed languages, the influences were a lot more obvious in his early linguistic creations. And interestingly enough, if you look at the word ishta and if you're familiar with words for knowing or even seeing in Indo European languages, there's a lot of words that it looks like. So for example, in Latin, you've got the word wideo, which is the origin of our word video, that means to see, or wisio, which, which means vision. You know, it's got a real similarity to these words. There's Greek cognates. That looks similar. Yeah. There's the S's and the T's and the I in there. Even down to the English words wit and wise.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Which is very interesting given the next thing he says here.

[A]

Right, that's exactly right. Because Tolkien explains that he used the word wizard to translate this. Right. To translate Ishtar. So you're right. That connection with wit and wise. Wise very much being the root of the English word wizard connects with Istar, being one who knows. And that's the whole point. So Tolkien uses that word because each of these, Istar, is a member of an order, as he says. They called it, claiming and actually demonstrating great knowledge both of the history and the nature of the world, which they should have.

[B]

Right. We know that these are Maiar spirits, right?

[A]

Yeah, absolutely.

[B]

They would have been there at the beginning, before the beginning.

[A]

They would have been part of the music.

[B]

Right.

[A]

There was a quote. If you look at the Ayna Lindala, you'll read that because of their memory of his words, his words being Iluvatar and the knowledge that each has of the music that he himself made, the Ainur and Maiar spirits are Ainur. Right. Ainur is the overall arching category of angelic beings. The Valar are the ones that are the powers of the world, and the Maya are the. The lesser. The Ainur know much of what was and is and is to come, and few things are unseen by them. So, yeah, I mean, they would have that knowledge. I mean, how much of it they possess. Right. Because they're in different form. And we'll get to that. But, like, how much of that is.

[B]

We'll get to that later. How they kind of have to remember it, it seems like over time. Yeah.

[A]

Or even relearn it. Yeah.

[B]

Yes. Yeah. But it's in there, and I think it's. That's really interesting. Well, especially when we get to it. Later, we'll talk about this. This idea of not having access to it all at first, but.

[A]

Which is got to be frustrating, you know, I know. I know this.

[B]

I used to know how to do this.

[A]

That happens to me all the time.

[B]

But it's that, don't worry, I know how to drive. I'm fine. You know,

[A]

they go, I can disarm the road. Oh, I'm just going to walk casually this way. So even though Tolkien chose to use the word wizard to translate one who knows, and even though that fits, given that similarity between Ista and real world variants that lead to that, Tolkien also acknowledges right away that choice is not perhaps a happy one. And that's because there's an easy confusion between the idea of this order of those who know and wizards or even magicians that we read about in more recent stories.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Who do you think he has in mind here in terms of, like, other magicians and Wizards.

[B]

I mean, I think, you know, the obvious first thought is like, Merlin from the Arthurian legend. Of course, he's really the one that. Gandalf, especially, seems to really fit that mold.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, that wise counselor. Wise counselor to a young king. You know, there's a lot of similarities there, but I think there are maybe some other ones, too. The others that I thought of, not so much Gandalf, but when we get to some of the others, like the blues, I start to think of even, like, sorcerers and wizards from, like, Robert E. Howard's. Robert E. Howard's Conan stories. Yeah, you know, there's. There's always like the sort of like the. The mystical, you know, sorcerer, necromancer type that's usually the bad guy. And Conan, the big, tough, brawny guy, is the good guy. You know, I kind of think he's thinking about all these different types of magicians and wizards in folklore and stories.

[A]

This isn't the first time that sort of pop culture folklore has caused Tolkien a little bit of a headache with his names. I'm thinking of gnomes. When I was talking about that recently, I think it might have been on a TTT episode. I don't remember, but this idea that he was like. I had to change the name because there's this tendency for people to imagine, well, essentially garden gnomes now, but, you know, like.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Creatures that are different than what I'm trying to, you know, instill in people's minds.

[B]

That's an interesting example because he chose the word gnome because, like the word Noldor, it also had this meaning of a wise one or one who knows. So it's.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

It's a very similar meaning to the word.

[A]

That's interesting. Yeah.

[B]

But, yeah, that These are cases in which that, especially with gnome, the original meaning of that word has been lost. People don't think about it, meaning one who knows. They just think of it, meaning, you know, little short guy with a pointy red hat, which Feanor doesn't like being likened to a short bearded guy.

[A]

If Feanor had to come back, I'd want him to come back in the form of a garden gnome. I could just kind of kick him around the backyard a little bit.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

[A]

Yeah. I'd be all right with that.

[B]

You could manage him. He's manageable in that form. His mischief can be contained in ceramic. He just comes out at night and ruins things and Exactly.

[A]

Shouts at people holding a tiny sword and saying, have this half brother, you know? Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, man.

[B]

There's a whole garden gnome village that fights at night. And there's like a little Feanor and a little Fingolfin, and they're

[A]

just don't put them near your pool because they're going to find the gnomes that live near the pool and burn their ships.

[B]

They're going to burn all the floaties.

[A]

All the floaties. Little rafts.

[B]

What happened to my swan? Floaty.

[A]

Seriously?

[B]

It got burned up by the garden gnome.

[A]

Melted. Now who's going to take me to the other side of the pool? None. And none.

[B]

Yep. Oh, man.

[A]

All right. Sorry.

[B]

Poor gnome Fenway smashed in the corner of the yard.

[A]

Oh, man. I got to make a movie of this. Yeah, I love it. No, I absolutely love it. Anyway, good stuff.

[B]

Where were we? I don't even know. Let's reel it back in here slightly. So, going back to Tolkien's essay here, in the process of all this, we get the name for this order as a whole, right? The Headen Istadion, the Order of wizards, obviously. Istadion, meaning of wizards. Hedren, though, is apparently the word for an order, which I don't believe is attested anywhere else.

[A]

No, I did some digging in El Damo. I couldn't find any reference to it anyplace else, let alone even any explanation of the roots.

[B]

But, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, the only root that it kind of reminds me of is the root Heru, which means Lord. I don't know if maybe there's a semantic similarity between a Lord and an order. I don't know.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. Heru is the. Is the Quenya root for Lord. I can think of. Heronumen Tar. Hereneumen was the arguably heretical Quenya name of the. Of our Aduna Core.

[B]

Just a little bit blasphemous, calling yourself

[A]

Lord of the West. Some light blasphemy, like a side of blasphemy.

[B]

You didn't need to send the eagles.

[A]

I'll just name myself Lord of the West. Yeah, I'm sure Manwe won't mind.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Oh, Araduna core. If only.

[B]

All right. Oh, man. Such a class act, that guy.

[A]

So, yeah, maybe. Maybe there's a connection with the Heru Lord and Heron being an order, but I'm not.

[B]

I'm not sure. That would just be anybody.

[A]

Biggest guess of guesses.

[B]

Yeah, way over my skis on that one. But Tolkien does say, though, that these Istari, these wizards, belong to a specific time and place in the history of the world. So this is not a generic word for all wizard type things. These are specific to these guys who were here in this specific time and place, which is the Third Age of Middle Earth.

[A]

That's right. He explains that they left after that time. And we'll eventually get to that since we actually know of only one who departed and one who just, poof, disintegrated.

[B]

Still a little sad about that.

[A]

I know. I mean, he had a chance, but how many chances? I mean, there is nobody in all of the Lord of the ratings that has many chances.

[B]

My gosh. I mean, my goodness, he got some chances.

[A]

He sure did. Tolkien adds that only the Keepers of the Three. He doesn't say Keepers of the Three, but I like that phrase because Isildur used it a few episodes back. Only they knew who these wizards really were or. Or where they came from. But I had a question for you. Didn't we speculate that Aragorn almost certainly knew and Treebeard definitely knew? Right.

[B]

Yeah. It's interesting that he says that only the Keepers of the Three knew. I mean, all I can take from that, if both of these things are true, all I can take from that is that Aragorn and Treebeard, folks like that, maybe had an idea, you know.

[A]

Okay, just not confirmed.

[B]

Gandalf has been alive for a long time. He doesn't seem to age. He knows a lot came back from the dead, which is weird.

[A]

That's a thing. That's a thing. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. So maybe he's like, well, he probably comes from the West. He talks about it sometimes, so he's probably suspicious, but maybe doesn't know exactly, you know.

[A]

That's fair. Yeah.

[B]

Some of the things that we're going to learn in this essay about him, you know, that's true.

[A]

I can, you know, I can see Gandalf now. I can neither confirm nor deny that I am, you know, from Valinor, wink, wink, wink.

[B]

Right. But. But on the topic of, you know, a man not putting two and two together.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

I mean, men are kind of clueless about this. You know, Elrond says, you know, men are weak. Apparently they're, you know, also not very intense. Really dull too, because Tolkien explains that for a long time men thought that the wizards were just other men, you know. Okay, well, they're knowledgeable masters, but they still seem like men.

[A]

Right. Because they looked like men.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Now, while the point of this section is to discuss how these estari appeared to the other peoples of Middle Earth, we do get a single bit of important historical detail inserted here. That they first appeared around the year Third Age one. Thousand more on that next week, I think, as one of the early versions has the blues. Maybe a different set of blues, but blues possibly showing up in the second Asia. We'll get to that next week, I think.

[B]

That's right. That's right. But now we get to their appearance. Now, the fact that they're Maiar spirits isn't revealed until the next reading. Spoilers, I guess. But, I mean, if you've listened to this podcast before, you probably heard us talk about it. Yeah. But since they're Maiar, let's dive into their raiment. Remember, this is a term we. We used for the flesh that an ainur and spirit can wear. Though maybe not totally accurate here, as we'll get to.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. We'll get to that.

[B]

Yeah. But so they showed up, you know, looking kind of like us, or more

[A]

like me than already old.

[B]

Kind of like you.

[A]

I knew you were trying.

[B]

You're like, I was looking. I was looking for the joke. I couldn't get to it.

[A]

Do I throw out that old man joke already? You're like, do I waste the ammo now? Yeah, very much. Kind of like us, or slash me. Men already old in years, but not like us at all, because they were hale in body.

[B]

That's where I really needed to get to. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[A]

Because my back aches all the time, my neck. I mean, I'm not hail in body anymore, man.

[B]

I'm not feeling hail at all. No.

[A]

So they don't settle down in any one place. They're travelers and wanderers. They don't let anybody know the reason that they're here. They don't let anybody know even what they're capable of, really.

[B]

That's right. And also, this whole time, we're told that men don't see them often. You know, they'll see them here and there, but when they see them, they don't pay a whole lot of attention to them. No, but this all starts to change after Sauron begins to return.

[A]

And the thing is, that is key. And it's interesting because the text says, you know, this change after Sauron begins to return, but that's a seriously gradual process, right? I mean, the Astati show up around third age 1000. And we read in the. The Tale of Years that it's around 1050 when the shadow falls on Greenwood, the forest gets its new name as Mirkwood about 50 years later and around 1100, when the wise figure out something's rotten and Dol Guldur, at the time, they think it's Just a Nazgul. Not that that's a good thing. I mean, I guess if I have an infestation, I'd rather have it be the Nazgul rather than the Dark Lord. Yeah.

[B]

Right. Yeah. Yeah. So that's 1100, and then it's 1300 when the Nazgul actually do show up again. And that's when the Witch King establishes Angmar.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But you're right, it's not until 2060. This is over a thousand years after the Astari have shown up, 2060. That they believe that Sauron is now active at Dol Guldur.

[A]

So somewhere in that time between 1050 and a thousand years later, the Istari become more active. They finally get off their tails and they start doing something, and their purpose seems a bit more evident.

[B]

Yeah. And that seems to be that they're looking to fight the growth of this shadow. Whether that shadow is, as you said, Alan, whether it's Sauron or just the Witch King. Just the Witch King.

[A]

Just.

[B]

Yeah. You know, the guy that no mortal man can kill. They're looking to fight that. And they're not looking to do it directly, but by talking to the children of Iluvatar, talking to elves and men, convincing them of the danger of this rising shadow.

[A]

What? Looks like.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

I'm wondering, too, like, what.

[B]

How did they. Like, how is this message received by.

[A]

Oh, that's a good question, too.

[B]

Typical man of, you know, I don't know. Calenardhon area.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or maybe. And how would that differ from, say, one of the Noldoran elves in Rivendell? You know, how did they receive that message compared to the men?

[B]

I mean, since this is Third Age, I have to feel like the elves are already headed to where we see them in Lord of the Rings. Right. They're probably already. Hugo Weaving is in my head saying, my people are leaving these shores. You know?

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Yeah, it's got to be a bit of that. You're right. Yeah. It's got to be a bit of that, Elves saying, like, look, this is not our mess. The Witch King is a human. Or was a human. Sauron is a problem because of that Isildur guy who didn't destroy the Ring. You know, like, never mind that.

[A]

He's also a problem because of your ringmakers, you know, Eregion the Gwaiithy Mutadon.

[B]

But I think the elves are gonna tend towards recency bias, not privacy bias.

[A]

Killabrimbor paid for that, man. He definitely did.

[B]

Come on. He's that's done. No, it's interesting because I do have to feel like Elves would probably understand the gravity but be reluctant to.

[A]

Exactly. Less likely to do anything men are, I bet.

[B]

Men would not understand the gravity.

[A]

Exactly. Very few men did. I mean, we know that Eldarion did. He didn't grasp who it was yet in the Second Age. I mean, it's one of those things where he knew that there was a dark force rising, but he didn't know that it was Sauron. Right. And it took that letter from the Gray Havens from High King Gil Galad to his father and saying, hey, your son thinks it's just some evil men, but it's Sauron.

[B]

Right?

[A]

We gotta do something about this. So, you know, by this point, certainly the realms in exile would be a little bit more willing to hear from the wizards. But you're right. The other men, you know, whether we're talking about the Men of Bree or the Men of Dale or, you know, at this point, you know, we don't even have the establishment of Rohan. So the Eotheod or the Northmen, what are they going to do? They don't.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I'm imagining a farmer in Bree when a wizard shows up, just like, hey, we got to fight this guy over in Angmar. He's just down the road. We got to do something about this guy. And just like this farmer, like, what do you want me to do?

[A]

Take my pitchfork and go after this immortal thing?

[B]

Right. It's like, I got turnips to plant right now, man. I'm not going to fight.

[A]

The hobbits are like, fine, we'll send a unit of archers maybe.

[B]

Right? Right.

[A]

We have no record of them ever going, which I love.

[B]

Right? Yeah. Because the hobbits are like, yeah, we

[A]

sent them like, yeah, yeah. We sent them using. Well, we sent them using the postal service. I know. We should have sent them ups. They would have gotten there. You would have had to package. But, you know, postal service, they marked it as delivered, but it doesn't show up until three days later.

[B]

Yeah, man. Coming out swinging on the usps.

[A]

Can you tell I have a package that didn't show up?

[B]

Yeah,

[A]

yeah. I'm not worried about losing their sponsorship. They never reached out with any interest. So we're good.

[B]

You know, probably for the best.

[A]

Probably. So now that they are out and about, these wizards, the men finally start to pay attention. And one of the things they notice is these old guys aren't getting any older. Or at least they're not getting much older. And they certainly aren't getting any deader, you know, I mean, in the meantime, you've got generations of men living and dying. So I don't know, I'm sort of feeling like, you know, you watch Highlander and they sort of like, sort of change their names over time, right? Yeah, they get richer, that's for sure.

[B]

Like, no, I'm not Connor McLeod, I'm. No, I'm just a guy.

[A]

Connor McLeod selling antiques. No.

[B]

With a mysteriously large bank account.

[A]

Now Saruman and Gandalf are fighting in Orthanc and Saruman's like, there could be only one.

[B]

That would be amazing. I would love to see the fight from the end of Highlander with the glass windows and everything. Oh man, that would be so cool to see Gandalf and Saruman.

[A]

Gandalf holding up Saruman's head at the end.

[B]

Yeah. Okay. Anyway, yeah, well, sad that this is an audio podcast and nobody saw the dramatic holding my head lift that I did. But I'm sure they heard the roar.

[A]

I'm sure they did.

[B]

Anyway, every once in a while, because of these mysteriously non aging guys, people do put two and two together sometimes and they start to figure, well, okay, they're clearly not men, so they must be related to the elves, right? Because vague sense that elves are immortal.

[A]

Yeah. Men would understand as immortal. Right. We always talk about serial longevity, but men wouldn't understand that.

[B]

So even though they look more like men, they must be related to elves. Right. But then all this means is that now they start to be afraid of the wizards. Right?

[A]

That kind of backfires, which I guess

[B]

I get, you know, you don't understand where these people are from. There's obviously something mysterious going on with them.

[A]

They're not like us.

[B]

No, that's exactly right. So even if you've got experience with them and you feel like, yeah, they seem all right, still. You're afraid of them. You don't know what they are.

[A]

Of course you are. I mean, you think even of, of, of Amer and his men when the three hunters or the, you know, ran into them on the fields of Rohan. They're like, oh, oh, the Golden Wood, Dwemer Dean. And you know, I mean all this, they don't trust the Elves either, you know.

[B]

Right, that's right.

[A]

Now, there is no description in the text of how they're received by Elves. We've, we've talked about like, well, they, they would be listening, but they might not be quick to take action. We do learn that they often consorted with the Elves So I. I would imagine that's probably, you know, they spent a lot of time talking with Elrond or Galadriel. Sure.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, hanging out with, well, not Gil Galad anymore, but, you know, Kiran and.

[B]

Right. They're going to want to get close to the Lore Masters and talk to them and, you know, know what's going on.

[A]

People who know that they did. And then of course, that's where you end up founding things like the White Council, you know.

[B]

Right. That's exactly right.

[A]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

Now soon we'll get back to wizards consorting with elves. Don't worry, the family friendly version of consorting. But before we do, I want to take a minute to thank amazing community that has grown up around this show and put up with me over the past 10 years. After all, there is a lot more talk going on with the Prancing Pony podcast than just us.

[B]

Yeah, the PPP really does have a warm and welcoming listener community. If you've got questions or you just want to talk about how much you love Middle Earth, be sure to check out our common room on Facebook and across all social media. On Facebook, just look for the Prancing Pony podcast. Yeah, there's a page, but you're going to want to join the group for that great fan community.

[A]

And on every social media platform other than Facebook. We're just rancingponypod and you can find our subreddit at R Prancingponypod. And please be sure to check out my Daily show, today's Tolkien Times on all your favorite podcast apps. Get your daily Middle Earth fix with everything from Middle Earth Map Mondays to First Stage Fridays. Be sure to listen wherever you get your podcasts.

[B]

All right, so why don't we go ahead and jump back into the text, Alan, you're going to read a little bit about, well, where these guys came from. Last thing we saw was that men thought that they were elves, but we've got some more information about that yet

[A]

they were not so, for they came from over the sea, out of the uttermost west, though this was for long known only to Cirdan, Guardian of the Third Ring, Master of the Grey Havens, who saw their landings upon the western shores. Emissaries they were from the Lords of the west, the Valar, who still took counsel for the governance of Middle Earth. And when the shadow of Sauron began first to stir, again, took this means of resisting him. For with the consent of eru, they sent members of their own high order, but clad in bodies as of men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of Earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain, though because of their noble spirits they did not die, and aged only by the cares and labors of many long years. And this the Valar did, desiring to amend the errors of old, especially that they had attempted to guard and seclude the Eldar by their own might and glory fully revealed. Whereas now their emissaries were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty or to seek to rule the wills of men or elves by open display of power. But coming in shapes weak and humble, were bidden to advise and persuade men and elves to good and to seek to unite in love and understanding all those whom Sauron, should he come again, would endeavor to dominate and corrupt. Of this order, the number is unknown. But of those that came to the north of Middle Earth where there was most hope because of the remnant of the Dunedain and of the Eldar that abode there, the chiefs were five. The first to come was one of noble mien and bearing with raven hair and a fair voice. And he was clad in white. Great skill he had in works of hand. And he was regarded by well nigh all, even by the Eldar, as the head of the order. Others there were also two clad in sea blue and one in earthen brown. And last came one who seemed the least less tall than the others and in looks more aged, grey haired and grey clad and leaning on a staff. But Ciridan, from their first meeting at the Grey Havens, divined in him the greatest spirit and the wisest. And he welcomed him with reverence. And he gave to his keeping the third ring, Narya the Red. For, said he, great labors and perils lie before you. And lest your task prove too great and wearisome, take this ring for your aid and comfort. It was entrusted to me only to keep secret. And here upon the west shores it is idle. But I deem that in days ere long to come it should be in nobler hands than mine that may wield it for the kindling of all hearts to courage.

[B]

So, yeah, just as we were saying before your reading. Just because men thought they were elves doesn't mean they're actually elves. And of course we know they're not elves.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Here we're told they came from the uttermost West. That's Valinor.

[A]

That's right. But only Ciridan knew that from the start. Probably because he had to get the passenger manifest and handle customs when they showed up at the Gray Havens. Right.

[B]

Well, that's a way to deglamorize that job, isn't it?

[A]

And how long will you be here? Are you here for business or tourism? I'm sorry? You said you're going to be here for how many thousands of years?

[B]

Right. Right.

[A]

Sir. Your visa's only good for six months. I don't you Cannot do that.

[B]

My stamp doesn't go that high.

[A]

I'm gonna have to ask you to come over here, sir. We have somebody who wants to talk to.

[B]

Yeah, right.

[A]

Anyway, so they didn't just come from Valinor, like hey, let's go to Middle Earth. Because it's a nice place to go though. I hear the weather's good. No, they are messengers from the Valar themselves. They were sent.

[B]

That's right. And even though they're not intervening in Middle Earth. The Valar. The Valar.

[A]

Right. They.

[B]

They still are taking counsel. Right. They're still involved, they're still paying attention. And I'm curious, Alan, what do you make of this phrase the governance? Right. Because they're not really governing Arda at this point. I mean, yes, Manwe is. He's in charge, I guess. I mean, of course he is nominally. Right. It's not like they're taking an active role in the day to day management.

[A]

If they are taking counsel for the governance. This is the ultimate libertarian planet. I mean like they're not doing anything. They're not governing anything.

[B]

Right, Right. And I guess they've learned their lesson, which we will talk about in a little bit.

[A]

Yeah, they really. I mean, in a way, and I know I've. I think we've chatted about this before because they so overdid it with elves and it so backfired that I feel like they kind of swung the pendulum a little too far the other way when it came to men.

[B]

Yeah. Like hey, hands off.

[A]

That's right. Never mind that you're mortal and only live like for 50 years. You could use more help.

[B]

They're just too fragile, I think is what it comes to. Really are.

[A]

Oh man. Yeah. I don't know. It's an interesting phrase. They took counsel for the governance of Arda but they're not governing it. So I don't know what that phrase really means.

[B]

Yeah. And I don't know if they just mean sort of like governance in almost like the. I don't know, the parliamentary or even the corporate sense of like they're. They're kind of overseeing it from a. I don't know, it's.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Manaway is still ultimately in charge and he is still ultimately responsible to Iluvatar for what he does.

[A]

The only thing I can think of is there is an archaic meaning of the word governance that doesn't have anything to do with the action or manner of governing. It just simply means sway or control. And if that's the case, if they're just taking counsel for the control of Middle Earth. Like, they want to know what's going on. That would make more sense. And it would not surprise me in the least to find out the Tolkien used that word in its archaic meaning.

[B]

No, that would make a lot of sense, actually.

[A]

I literally just looked that up and I'm like, oh, okay. I bet it's that archaic meaning for sway or control.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that would totally fit with what the Valar do right now, which is to say, let's just look and see what's happening. But we're not going to do anything about it.

[B]

Yeah, because otherwise you're thinking of a situation in which, like, you know, Iluvatar is the chairman of the board and Manwe is like the CEO. Yeah. But then he's not doing anything, so he's not a very good CEO.

[A]

Well, you know, there's the end of

[B]

that analogy, I guess.

[A]

His stock options are not really great. He gets like, no ownership in this thing.

[B]

Right. Benefits are good.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Well, he gets to live in company housing on the top of the mountain. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[B]

Anyway, so why did they do this? Because, you know, okay, it took a thousand years for Sauron's presence to make itself truly known. But even at the beginning of that, there were rumblings. Early on, the Valar knew that something was going on. They knew that he was. They knew that he was stirring. They knew they needed to do something to fight him.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

So they actually got the permission of Iluvatar himself to send some spirits to Middle Earth to help to intervene in a new way.

[A]

And that's interesting. They probably should have asked ERU when they first encountered the elves, like, should we invite these people over? And ERU could have said, not a great idea, but do what you want, folks. Just a quick reminder, by the way, that this idea of members of their own high order that refers to the Maiar spirits in Valaquenta, we read with the Valar, which are the ones that come in and actually do govern Arda, for a time came other spirits whose being also began before the world of the same order as the Valar, but of less degree.

[B]

Right. So what that means is that they're Ainur, they're all Valar, and Maiar are both Ainur, which are basically angelic beings that are the literal offspring of Iluvatar's thought. Right. And so that's why the Maiar are the same order of the Valar, being all Ainur, but they're just to a lesser degree, like, you said earlier, the Valar are the powers, the little G gods of the world, and the Maiar are the ones that serve them. But, and this goes back to something we were talking about a little bit earlier. While all the Ainur, both Valar and Maiar alike, they can put on raiment, which is the word Tolkien uses for putting on flesh. So they can exist in the world and appear and you can see them,

[A]

hear them and interact with them.

[B]

Right, and interact with things in the world.

[A]

That's what Thingol wanted to do was interact with Melian. Yes, yes.

[B]

Well, yes.

[A]

It's a good thing she had a body.

[B]

That's right. That's right. It made it a lot easier than. I don't know what the alternative would have been. I haven't found those websites. Yeah. So all the Ainur can put on raiment. They can all put on bodies, put on flesh and be seen and interact with the world. But these spirits, the ones we're talking about here, the Istari, they're actually incarnated. They're actually in real bodies. And this is different.

[A]

That's so important, too. I mean, and the text makes it clear. That means that they are now subject to the fears and pains and weariness that we would face. Right. They can be afraid, they can be hurt and experience pain and all of that. But there's also some more practical problems. They need to eat, they need to drink, and they can get themselves killed.

[B]

Right.

[A]

They are subject to being slain. But pay attention to that text because it's. They're able to be slain, but they're not going to die of old age. Right. Their spirits prevent that. They're not going to die of natural causes. They do get a little bit older because of the work they're putting in, but that's. That's different.

[B]

And it's, again, kind of more like what we see with elves, where they, yeah, absolutely, can be slain, but they don't. They don't age.

[A]

They don't. Or they age very, very slowly.

[B]

Very slowly. That's true. Elves do age. You're right.

[A]

Exactly. Yeah. With a beard.

[B]

And so Tolkien expands on this concept of incarnation a bit in letter 156. This is a draft of a letter to Robert Murray dated in November of 1954. So we don't know if the letter came first or the essay, because the essay was also written in 1954. But clearly he was thinking about all this stuff at the same time. And in that letter he writes, there are naturally no precise modern terms to say what Gandalf was, I would venture to say that he was an incarnate angel, strictly an Angelos. That's a Greek word for messenger. It's actually the Greek word that we get the word angel from. It literally means messenger. That is, with the other Istari wizards, those who know, an emissary from the Lords of the west, sent to Middle Earth as the great crisis of Sauron loomed on the horizon by incarnate. And this is still Tolkien here. I mean, they were embodied in physical bodies capable of pain and weariness and of afflicting the spirit with physical fear and of being killed. Though supported by the angelic spirit, they might endure long and only show slowly the wearing of care and labor.

[A]

Now, a lot of very similar language to what we just read in the main text here.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I mean, it's just, again, he's clearly. This is front of mind for him right here in 1954 as he's putting together the index and he's thinking through all of this stuff. But here it's even more clear. Right. We actually get the word incarnate instead of clad in bodies as of men.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which I like because that really gives us that. I mean, going back to one of my favorite appearances of Sean on the show was, you know, that when we did the word. The word nerdy, when we did the Philology Fair on the charnel smell, and we talked about that root Carnegie and how it's in words like this. Well, here's that root again.

[B]

That means flesh in flesh. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And he is explicitly clear here. They can be killed and they can feel fear. So now, all of a sudden, things like that confrontation with Gandalf and the Nazgul on the top of Weathertop takes on a new meaning when you realize he had to have been terrified.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

This is genuine fear. He could die.

[B]

Yeah, that's right. This is different from Avala or Amaya putting on raiment to talk to Tuor or, you know, or even to fight

[A]

in the war of wrath. Right. When they show up. Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, it's not the same fear.

[B]

Yeah. Or to marry fingal. Like, this is different.

[A]

Yeah, it is very different. Yeah, you're right.

[B]

It is. This is a body that is not just, you know, coalesced out of matter. It's. Yes, it's made of matter, but it is. This is your body. This is the only one you get.

[A]

Yep. You get one and only one, except

[B]

for the one case, you know.

[A]

Well, ERU gets to do what he wants, though. And that's the thing like, like the Valar couldn't have done that. That had to be a job.

[B]

Right? That's exactly right.

[A]

That's super important. And we'll. Hopefully we'll get to that. Maybe not so much because that's not really a thing that features in this chapter, but I'd like to do either a sidebar or maybe a postscript on that whole incident with Gandalf and the resurrection of him because it's so.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So intriguing and it's very, very important to this whole idea of them being incarnate.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

But yeah, back to the. The Valar and the reasoning behind sending these Maiar spirits to help in the fight against Sauron. The reason they're intervening like this is to amend the error of old. And I laugh at the fact that that's singular.

[B]

Right. Yeah. Because there's probably more than a few errors that we could list.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Look, I kid. I love the Valar, but you know, they.

[A]

I didn't mean it. Manwe.

[B]

Yeah, they had to learn on the job for a little bit early on.

[A]

Pretty much. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. So while there are a few errors that they have committed throughout the history of Middle Earth, the one specifically mentioned in the text here is that they had sheltered the Eldar by revealing their power.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

And so that's all of a piece with the fact that the Istari are not allowed to reveal their power. They're not allowed to. To come out, display their glory and intimidate people into following them. They can't rule, they can't dominate.

[A]

No. And they're not supposed to seek leadership positions by means of their power. And that's honestly a reasonable restriction on an angelic being. I mean, I'm probably going to vote for the guy who never dies and can throw magic fireball pine cones from trees. He's got my vote.

[B]

I mean, I don't know. Would you want to have a beer with him? I mean, that's a fair point.

[A]

And I'd also want to know his tax policies, but.

[B]

Clearly not a George R.R. martin fan.

[A]

Exactly. Exactly.

[B]

So, yeah. So instead of leading the fight from the front, their job is to hang back, to advise and persuade, to bring people together, unite elves, men, dwarves, all the free peoples of Middle Earth and bring them together to fight against Sauron.

[A]

I love the way the text puts

[B]

that, by the way.

[A]

To seek to unite in love and understanding all of those whom Sauron would look to dominate and corrupt. I absolutely adore that phrase. To me, that feels a little bit like the Tolkien Fandom, right? You know, like. Yeah, it's this idea that, that we all come together. I don't know, it's just, it's maybe I'm being a little too, too. No, it's, it's touchy feely there, but I just, I love that phrase.

[B]

I think it's a great thing, you know, that, that love and understanding, you know, we all need more of that.

[A]

Absolutely. Now, we often think about the five wizards, right? We think about Gandalf, Saruman, the Two Blues and that weird guy with the big rabbits rat us something. But who by the way, is taller than Gandalf. Who is taller than Gandalf? He's not shorter, but we'll get to. But the text here tells us something I don't think we often consider and I find this so interesting because once again, Tolkien creates a bigger world, but only shows us a sliver of it. There are five chiefs that came to the northern part of Middle Earth. Now that is the part of the world that concerns us and the stories Tolkien gave us. But that still may not be all.

[B]

That's right. And it's not just that other wizards might have been sent to other parts of Middle Earth. You know, okay, maybe he sent, you know, these five to the north, a few others to the east, south, whatever. Right? There might be others.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That were sent to the north. They're just not the chiefs.

[A]

That is so intriguing.

[B]

There could be 10 more or more out there in the north of Middle Earth.

[A]

And of course we never encounter them in the story, we never hear about them. But it is so intriguing to think that these five are just the chiefs, which really does imply others. And now Tolkien is explicitly saying these are just the chiefs. It's just really interesting.

[B]

It's fascinating and it. I know he kind of goes back and forth on this idea. We'll see later on that he kind of changes this up a little bit. But it's really fun to speculate on, well, who else might have been, you know, one of the, one of the lesser wizards that might have been.

[A]

And they're sort of hidden. Like you don't know, like you think you're just talking to a man or maybe an elf, because they can sort with elves. They could probably disguise themselves as elves pretty easily, except for the beards. But you know, the real world reason that we learn about these five coming to the north of Middle Earth is simply because that's for Tolkien based the story.

[B]

Right.

[A]

There's no reason in the, in the real world for him to tell us about ones that he sent to Rune. But the text also gives us a really cool in universe reason, and it's because that's where the most hope was located. And that was because of the Dunedain. Right. The survivors of the Edain that had gone to Numenor and then, you know, returned before the downfall. And the elves. So the Dunedain and the elves are the source of hope. That hope is the reason why these five chiefs of the Astari show up in the North. Really interesting.

[B]

And that makes sense. I mean, you know, if. If you're looking for people to lead this fight against Sauron, you're not going to lead it yourself. Where are you going to go? You're going to go where the most people are that, you know, where's your best chance of finding people who are willing to take this fight on? And that would be in the North.

[A]

Yeah. Because if you go to, let's say again, Rune or Khand or, you know, these places where the Easterlings are and all these are people who don't necessarily care and who are like, oh, yes, Sauron's back. Awesome, man, you know, or.

[B]

Or they're. Or they just don't know. They. They don't know the larger things that are going on, you know, and they're just like, they're going to be enslaved by Sauron or, you know, something else.

[A]

Yeah, the Eldar aren't there and of course, we know that that's important. But also the Dunedain, you know, the. The men of the West. So very, very cool stuff. There it is.

[B]

So now we move from the reason for their coming and the form they took and their number to a description of each of the Chief Five that came to the north of Middle Earth. And the list is led, not too surprisingly, by sir not named in this paragraph. Saruman.

[A]

That is correct. None of them actually get names in this passage.

[B]

This is true.

[A]

Yeah. So he has black hair. Right. Raven hair. So totally not like the film. Noble, both in appearance and in bearing. So, like the film, and with what is described here as simply a fair voice, of course, it's arguable that he has more than just a fair voice. That voice becomes one of his most powerful tools. But it isn't mentioned here in that. In that respect.

[B]

No. I do think this is a hint, though. Oh, yeah, the bit of a.

[A]

This is such an overview paragraph, it just barely skims. So fair voice is enough to, like, alert you.

[B]

Yes, exactly. As are the facts that he's dressed in white, he's a Great craftsman. Right. We get this bit about skill and works of hand and everyone saw him as the leader of the order. And there's a footnote here that reminds us that this actually squares with the text of Lord of the Rings where we read that he was accounted by many the chief of wizards. And that at the council of Elrond, Gandalf actually said, saruman the White is the greatest of my order.

[A]

Even Gandalf says that that's quite something. So we'll get more on him later. But for now, the list moves on to. And very quickly passed two clad in sea blue and one in earth and brown. Boom, boom, boom. So much for Ratagast.

[B]

And then like the camera just pans right by.

[A]

I know, like you have to freeze the frame and even then it's blurred. Right. It's just like three frames. There's Radagast and the two blues. Instead we shift focus straight to Gandalf, who is described here as seeming the least.

[B]

Yeah, and you mentioned this a moment ago, Alan, but it's interesting that he is less tall than the rest. Isn't that interesting, given how tall we think of Gandalf being in the movies? Right. I mean, he's.

[A]

He doesn't seem quite as tall as like. Well, actually he seems taller than the others, but he's certainly over six foot, I'd say.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, Ian McKellen is five' eleven.

[A]

Okay, so yeah, just about six foot tall.

[B]

Yeah, he's pretty tall. Now, in the Nature of Middle Earth, Part 2, Chapter 6, descriptions of characters, we read about, some notes that Tolkien wrote about the poster sized map of Middle Earth that was created by Pauline

[A]

Baynes and I love that map. I would like to get a copy of that map. On that map are actually a number of vignettes that surround it and there's one of those that includes the Fellowship. The notes on this have really proven helpful recently because they tell us that Aragorn was probably at least 6 foot 6 and that Boromir would not be much shorter. Say 6 foot 4. Those are Tolkien's own words describing how tall these people are.

[B]

But that's pretty tall.

[A]

That's really tall. I mean, you know, we know that galadriel is also 6 foot 4, by the way.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And therefore Celeborn is at least as tall or. I'm sorry, no, no more no taller. He can be no taller because she is at least as tall as he is. That's what the text says. No less tall than the Lord is the description of her.

[B]

Gotcha Yep.

[A]

They're 6 foot 4.

[B]

I'm 5 6. Everybody looks tall to me, so.

[A]

But they're very dangerous over short distances.

[B]

Absolutely. Yes, I am.

[A]

You know Elendil at center because he's like 7 foot 11. Can you imagine that guy?

[B]

Unbelievable.

[A]

Just camp him in the key on defense.

[B]

He can dunk with. He can dunk with both feet on the ground.

[A]

He can dunk with both feet on the ground and the ball at eye level practically.

[B]

Right.

[A]

He's just like. Just like putting something on a shelf. Anyway, yeah, Gandalf is a bit shorter. Tolkien actually tells us, kind of says Gandalf even bent. Must have been at least five foot six, bent.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I'm getting old enough that sometimes my back hurts and I can walk a little bit. So five, nine, maybe. Maybe five, ten at the most. I can't imagine he's much taller than that. He's not bent over like a foot. Right. He's not like hunched over like a. Like an old crone?

[B]

No. Right. Okay. So that's almost as tall as Ian McKellen. But he feels so much taller in the movies.

[A]

And I know part of it's the hat, but he looks taller than everybody except for maybe Aragorn and maybe Legolas. But yeah, the films show him as being tall. Of course, he's taller than Gimli and the Hobbits.

[B]

But that's.

[A]

Even at 5 foot 6, he's going to be taller than Gimli and the Hobbits. But it is interesting, and the question that comes from that about his height being 5 foot 6 when he's walking around. But when you compare that to how tall the Elves are and how tall the Men of the west are, how might that have impacted how he's seen or received? I mean, we know in the real world that tall people are more successful. We hate to acknowledge that because you and I are both average height and a little bit less. But, like, guys that are six two, six, three, they succeed in this life, even if they're incompetent. They somehow rise to, like, be VPs, you know?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

People look up literally and metaphorically to tall people. So how does his height maybe negatively impact the way his mentality? Maybe.

[B]

So maybe it makes him seem less imposing. Maybe it makes him seem less of

[A]

a threat then for the men.

[B]

Could be. Maybe it might be a little bit subversive in the way that, you know, he just. Oh, well, he seems harmless, you know.

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Let's let him in. Let's talk to him, Gandalf, he's a little bit.

[A]

Let's let in the poor short guy.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And maybe, maybe that is. Maybe that actually works in his favor because he gains people's trust, because he's not intimidating.

[A]

That's a fair point. It's just one of those interesting things, like there's a reason that Tolkien made it this way. And I'm trying to think of what he's trying to convey. I do think it may go hand in hand with the fact that he seems to be the least. Right. He's the last.

[B]

I think that's true. Yeah.

[A]

There's. It compares and sort of. I think it connects to these other traits that we're supposed to see, like his humility and his meekness, you know, which is really interesting.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, there is kind of a smallness to him that we're constantly told about here. And it is more than just being shorter than the others. We get the fact that he looks older, he's got the gray hair, he's leaning on the staff, he's wearing gray. So there's this kind of. There is kind of a smallness to smallness, kind of a, like you said, meekness, a non threatening vibe to this, you know, sweet little monochromatic old man who's just kind of walking around, you

[A]

know, with the gray hat and the gray beard and the gray cloak. Yeah, that's fair. Good point. Kirdan, though criminally underrated elf, I gotta say, sees something special in this last and least of the wizards. Right. And it's so special that he gives him narya. Like, talk about a welcome home present, right? This is one of the Rings of Power. And like, here you go, you might need this. And we get this quote from him that I absolutely love, in which he foresees the work that's in front of Gandalf and how the ring is going to help him accomplish it.

[B]

Yeah, and his logic here makes perfect sense because.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

Cirdan does say his job was just to keep it secret. You know, it's not doing any good here in the Grey Havens. We get another bit of foretelling here. He says that it needs to be in nobler hands, it needs to be used. It needs to bring strength to the hearts of others out there. It needs to do some work.

[A]

Pretty incredible for Kirdan to say it needs to be in nobler hands than mine. I mean, that's true. That is some humility because Cirdan, I mean, wow, his story is something else, right? Incredible for him. To say that, but I love. You know, we get this passage actually in three different places, don't we? We get the passage here, and we get a very similar but not quite identical version at the beginning of the Tale of Years where he says, take this ring, master. He said, for your labors will be heavy, but it will support you in the weariness that you have taken upon yourself. For this is the Ring of Fire, and with it you may rekindle hearts in a world that grows chill.

[B]

Okay, so that's one. Now, the other is in of the Rings of Power in the Third Age, in the Silmarillion. And there it says, take now this ring, he said, for thy labors and thy cares will be heavy, but in all it will support thee and defend thee from weariness. For this is the Ring of Fire, and herewith maybe thou shalt rekindle hearts to the valor of old in a world that grows chill.

[A]

That literally just sounds like the Tale of Years version, but, like, run through a King James simulator.

[B]

Run through a thienator.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, it really does. It's almost identical. It uses.

[B]

It really is.

[A]

The same phrases about the labors and the weariness and the name of the ring and the idea of rekindling. And that last line in a world that grows chilled.

[B]

Yeah. I kind of love that which is

[A]

missing from this one. Yeah, I do, too. And I like those both, I think, a little better than the one in. In this chapter, because it doesn't talk so much about the world that grows chill. Doesn't say that at all. It just talks about that. It still uses the kindling idea that you may wield it for the kindling of all hearts to courage. That seems to be the. The thread or this. That runs through all three, which makes sense. The String of Fire, you know?

[B]

Yeah. It makes it. It does. Metaphorically. It works really well.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I love the bit about the world that grows chill, though. I mean, you get a little bit of Tolkien's criticism of the 20th century.

[A]

Yeah, you do, exactly.

[B]

He's not talking about the 20th century, but he's totally thinking about it.

[A]

He is totally thinking about it. It's that whole thing about the medieval style that we see in his text, I think about their arrival in Minas Tirith and how, oh, there's great stonework. Yeah. But the old stuff is better, you know, it's always that way with Tolkien. Yeah. So Gandalf gets scenario. Right. He does what he can to keep his possession of it a secret, but eventually Saruman learns all about it because really discovering secrets is what Saruman does.

[B]

And this doesn't work out too well because. No, he really wasn't going to let this go.

[A]

No, no. Like Saruman's like, you did what now?

[B]

He begrudged it, we're told.

[A]

I mean like that's putting it mildly.

[B]

Cause of course he did. I mean this is a guy who is constantly jealous of Gandalf throughout his entire life in Middle Earth. It's like he just can't. Saruman just cannot get over the fact that he was not born Gandalf.

[A]

Really can't. I mean you read that so much in the Hunt for the Ring because you see that throughout. Like it's the pipe weed thing, it's the Shire thing, it's all of that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He just has to be Gandalf.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And yet, you know, we see that this is kind of the beginning of that. That secret anger, you know, that jealousy, that hatred. It's just. Yeah, well, Kirodan, Nobody, nobody gave me a ring.

[A]

Like that's right. Where's my ring, man? I'm the head of the order.

[B]

Yeah, right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So this is where that all starts.

[A]

Yeah. And to remind you folks of what Matt and I talked about during the Hunt for the Ring, one of the lines was Saruman soon became jealous of Gandalf again. And this rivalry turned at last to a hatred the deeper for being concealed and the more bitter in that. Solomon knew in his heart that the Gray Wanderer had the greater strength and the greater influence upon the dwellers in Middle Earth, even though he hid his power and desired neither fear nor reverence.

[B]

And that passage continues. Saruman did not revere him, but he grew to fear him, being ever uncertain how much Gandalf perceived of his inner mind, troubled more by his silences than by his words. So it was that openly he treated Gandalf with less respect than did others of the wise and was ever ready to gainsay him or to make little of his counsels while secretly he noted and pondered all that he said. Man that is so evil. This is the boss that is constantly cutting you down in the staff meeting

[A]

and then taking credit for your ideas.

[B]

Secretly taking credit for your ideas because he knows they're brilliant.

[A]

Same thing that's exactly so evil right here. It really is. I'm putting that in a 21st century office context and it is nasty. I mean, you're in a meeting and the guy's mocking you and rolling his eyes when you talk, but then he's going to steal your ideas and Turn them into something and take credit for it. He's just nasty as can be. Which, I mean, come on, Kieran's no dummy. He saw that.

[B]

Right? And.

[A]

And that's why this all started here, because Kieran had the foresight and gave Nadia to Gandalf. But there are other wizards, including two of a different hue. So, Sean, would you be so kind as to read about the blue?

[B]

I shall. Oh, that's lovely. It rhymed.

[A]

The two and the hue. And the blue.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I try, I try.

[B]

Now, the White messenger in later days became known among Elves as Kurunir, the man of craft in the tongues of Northern Men, Saruman. But that was after he returned from his many journeys and came into the realm of Gondor and their abode of the Blue. Little was known in the west, and they had no names save Ithrin Luin, the Blue Wizards. For they passed into the east with Kurinnir, but they never returned. And whether they remained in the east, pursuing there the purposes for which they were sent or perished or as some hold, were ensnared by Sauron and became his servants, is not now known. But none of these chances were impossible to be for strange indeed though this may seem, the Istari, being clad in bodies of Middle Earth, might even as Men and Elves, fall away from their purposes and do evil, forgetting the good in the search for power to effect it. Then Christopher writes a separate passage, written in the margin, no doubt belongs here, going back to JRR Tolkien. For it is said indeed that, being embodied, the Astati had need to learn much anew by slow experience. And though they knew whence they came, the memory of the blessed Realm was to them a vision from afar off, for which so long as they remained true to their mission, they yearned exceedingly. Thus, by enduring of free will the pangs of exile and the deceits of Sauron, they might redress the evils of that time.

[A]

They might indeed. So while they remained unnamed in the previous reading, now we get, well, some names. We still don't get all of them. We start with the head of the order, who? Khurnir, the man of craft, later known as Saruman. Both names really have the same meaning, don't they?

[B]

They do, yeah. Khurnir uses the same kuru element which is found in Curfin's name. This is an element that means skill or craft. And then the last part of that name is the agent suffix, which sometimes you see it indir n d I r Here that the d is dropped. But you get this in names like Borandir, Lindir, even Mithrandir, which we'll get in a minute. So that's the Elvish form of the name Saruman, which is the Mannish form, or the Old English form that actually uses a modernized prefix, saru, which actually comes from Old English seru. I think I'm saying that right.

[A]

I hope so.

[B]

And that means skill or cunning, or cunning device. And then, of course, the man part of that is obvious right now.

[A]

We learn, though, that he didn't get this name until later, after he returned from his many journeys. And more on that in a second. As for the Blue Wizards, well, we'll get a couple of possibilities later in the chapter. This 1954 essay does not provide their individual names, just that they are indeed known as the Blue Wizards. The Ithryn Luin.

[B]

That's right. Now, Ythryn there is the plural of the Sindarin noun Ithran, which, as we talked about at the very start, is the Sindarin equivalent of Quenya Istar. And then Luin, there, of course, means blue. We've got, you know, the Blue Mountains, the Eded Luin, on the map.

[A]

So that should be familiar easily enough. Here we learn that these two, the Ythryn Luin, went, quote, into the east with Kournir. So those must be at least some of his journeys that were mentioned a moment ago. So, Sean, does this mean Amazon was okay to suggest that Saruman went to ruin in the Second Age?

[B]

Yeah, I'm not touching that one.

[A]

You know, I had to ask this.

[B]

No.

[A]

Okay. There we go. Thank you very much, sir.

[B]

Sorry, I'm not still not on board with that one.

[A]

I'm with you, man.

[B]

You're getting me in trouble.

[A]

Well, I never said I wouldn't.

[B]

No, that's true. I should know better.

[A]

You knew what you were getting into.

[B]

I totally knew what I was getting into. It's true. And so we're not told what happened to them?

[A]

No.

[B]

You know, did they stay in the East? Did they do their job? Did they actually bring people together to fight Sauron? I mean, knowing what we know about people in the East. I'm not in Middle Earth. I mean, I mean, yeah, yeah, probably not, you know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Did they die?

[A]

Yeah. Were they killed?

[B]

They're killed, right? Did they, even worse, become servants of Sauron? I mean, that's a creepy idea. This seems quite likely to me, actually. I don't.

[A]

Actually, I don't.

[B]

You know, I don't need the Blue Wizards lawyers or their estates lawyers coming after me for defamation.

[A]

Defamation. Can you defame an angelic spirit, though, Sean?

[B]

I mean, if it's incarnate, sure.

[A]

That's true. Yeah, I guess you could. Dismissing the motion. QED that's right.

[B]

I don't know. I kind of like this headcanon that they. I love the idea that they went out there and they did become some of those magicians that you've heard about. You know, they did kind of start playing around with the Dark arts and maybe became servants of Sauron. I like that. Headcanon and that.

[A]

That's why we think of magicians and wizards like that.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Because Tolkien does a lot of that where he gives you the. Well, this is why you think this about these things, because this is sort of a degraded form of, you know, what it really was supposed to be.

[B]

Right? Yeah. And so maybe they got into alchemy and necromancy and all kinds of things that, you know, we associate with wizards.

[A]

Maybe I do, too. I like that. Certainly it's more exciting than they just, like, I don't know, got killed somehow, just randomly. Whoops y. Oh, well, you know, they're bad.

[B]

Camping trip with the slain. We went camping with Saruman. He asked us if either of us got rings at the Gray Havens, and then when we didn't answer, he killed us.

[A]

Oh, man. The footnote here does add some detail. Nothing about that, unfortunately, referencing a 1958 letter. So that's written four years after this essay. So we know which came first this time. And this is a letter to Rona Baird. It's letter 211, where he says, I really do not know anything clearly about the other two, since they do not concern the history of the Northwest and Middle Earth. Really interesting there. I mean, like, they don't come into the story because I didn't write the story there.

[B]

Right, right. And in classic Tolkien fashion, you know, even though he created all this stuff himself, he starts speculating about where they went. He says, I think they went as emissaries to distant regions, east and south, far out of numenorean range, missionaries to enemy occupied lands, as it were.

[A]

You know, if you think that's what they did, you could just say that's what they did, because you're the guy.

[B]

You wrote it, dude.

[A]

I know, but he's actually not very, very confident of their success as missionaries to enemy occupied lands. He writes, I fear that they failed as Solomon did, though doubtless in different ways. And I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and magic traditions. That outlasted the fall of Sauron. And now I really like the way your headcanon goes because that would certainly explain why we all still think of magicians and wizards in a particular way. Yeah, that would fit with the idea of this sort of corrupted version being what we consider.

[B]

Oh yeah, yeah. And I think that's why I kind of. That's why my head goes there. Just, I think it, it makes so much sense.

[A]

You know, I play Lord of the Rings online and you know, I'm in the Corsairs of Umbar storyline now and I'm really excited to see if that's where they go with this, like whether it's an expansion pack down the road or wherever. If I end up finding out that I, you know, that I encounter one of those the blues, would that be great? Like what a story element that would be because we're like moving far out into Haradwaith anyway.

[B]

Just, I just, I want them to be like. I want them to be in the blue robe with like, you know, moons and stars all over it. Like really, like.

[A]

Yeah. Even if they can't use the names.

[B]

But yeah, yeah, I like, I kind of half joking about this, but I really want them to be that stereotypical like. Yeah, absent minded wizard of, you know, of so many stories. I think that would be super cool.

[A]

That would be great with like beards that are like five feet long, you know, robes that trail on the ground.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, I love that. So back to the main text. Tolkien explains that because these Maiar are now incarnate, they just, like men and elves might fall away from their purposes and do evil, forgetting the good in the search for power to affect it.

[A]

Oh, that's a line.

[B]

I love that.

[A]

That is such a line. To do evil, forgetting the good in the search for power to affect it in search for power to make the good happen, you lose sight of your goal.

[B]

Yeah. This reminds me of Gandalf's fear of using the One Ring. Right. Like the idea that he would want to use it to do good, but it would take a hold of him and he would.

[A]

He would forget what even worse than Sauron, he says, or Tolkien says that I can't remember.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Tolkien of course expands on this a little bit more. In letter 156. We cited this earlier about the wizards being Angelos. Right. Messengers or angels. And in that letter he explains that in this mythology all the angelic powers. And he puts angelic in quotes because he is writing to a Catholic priest. He wants to make sure and Again, you have to take the context.

[B]

Yeah. Who's he writing to?

[A]

All the angelic powers concerned with this world were capable of many degrees of error and failing between the absolute satanic rebellion and evil of Morgoth and his satellite, Sauron, and the fainiance, which is a word that means idleness of some of the other higher powers or gods. And he finishes with this line that's super key to what we're talking about today. The wizards were not exempt. Indeed, being incarnate were more likely to stray or err. That is interesting. It suggests to me. And what do you think? That if they were in Raiment rather than incarnate, they would have been less capable of failing or maybe even incapable of failing? I don't know.

[B]

I don't know about incapable, but less capable, perhaps. Because, you know, there is this idea that we've talked about since season one of this show that, you know, matter itself has Morgoth in it. It has a Melkor.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Melkor element or Melkor component.

[A]

Arda itself is Morgoth's ring.

[B]

Arda itself is Morgoth's ring because Melkor put his power. He corrupted the fabric of Arda itself. The way that Sauron put his power into the ring. And I think that's related to this. I think that the idea of being trapped in a. Trapped is not the right word. But being stuck in a body, incarnated in a body, I think it corrupts. I think it's inherently corrupting of the immortal spirit. And Tolkien would probably say that elves, Fayar and men's faar are probably corrupted by their flesh as well.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That seems like something Tolkien would probably be on board with.

[A]

Even if you have an incorrupt thing, if it's in a corrupt container, it's going to get corrupted.

[B]

Yeah, Right. It's in a corrupt vessel. And I think that is why they're subject to this.

[A]

And they're more likely than if they were just in raiment.

[B]

Yeah. And you know what I'm thinking of? I'm thinking of. Remember Osanwe Kenta in Vineyard, Tengwar. That's mostly about telepathy. But there's a whole note in there that talks about the longer. And this is different, but let's follow this thread, see where it goes. There's this note about the longer an Ainu spends in Raiment and the more stuff they do to interact with the physical world.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Eating, drinking, having children, begetting. Right.

[A]

Was the.

[B]

Yeah, right. All of these things sort of bind them to that body. It's different, I guess, but I do kind of feel like they're related. I think this idea that the body is something that's, you know, because it's flesh, because it's made of earth, it's corruptible. And I think that probably the longer. Just like, the longer Melian stays in her raiment and gives birth to Luthien and that kind of binds her to the body. I think it's similar to the way that this body binds the Astari and makes them more susceptible to corruption.

[A]

And the longer they're in it, the more susceptible they are, perhaps.

[B]

Yeah, I know it's two different things, but I do think they're related somehow.

[A]

I think they're connected. Yeah. I mean, you certainly can see that. And it makes sense within that world, you know, within Tolkien's mythology, if it fits that way. I know we talked about it or didn't really talk about it, but we both admired that line about doing evil, forgetting the good in the search for power to affect it. What do you make of that line? Like what? What's the real world application for that? What are some other examples in Tolkien about forgetting the good in the search for power to accomplish the good? That's such a great line. I don't want to just pass right by it without at least a little bit more on it.

[B]

I mean, I think the first thing I think of is Gandalf's fear of the Ring, which we talked about.

[A]

Makes sense.

[B]

I think Denethor might be another example of this.

[A]

Yes. Yes, he genuinely does want to serve Gondor and do good for Gondor. But so much so, he sets aside the good and he ends up falling into the control of Sauron. Falling into the despair of Sauron, I should say. Not the control.

[B]

Maybe Boromir, too, because he's looking. He's literally searching to protect Minas Tirith. And in doing so, he forgets why it's wrong to try and take the Ring from Frodo by force.

[A]

That's a really good example because it sets up the opposite with Faramir, of course, who that is.

[B]

True.

[A]

Who makes it very clear, even if I alone could save Minas Tirith and I wouldn't do it.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

He does not forget the good in the search for the power to affect it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And those two contrasts really help illustrate what Tolkien's writing here. That. Look, because they're in this corruptible flesh, the possibility of them falling away is more than just a slim chance. It's a very strong Thing, they'll have to fight that tendency to fall consciously.

[B]

Oh, man, that's so great. It is so much fun how you just. You find these little. You find one sentence and it's like, oh, that sounds kind of cool. And then if you're just reading, you just move past it. But if you stop and think about it, you really get some great insights from it.

[A]

You really do. That was good stuff. Thank you.

[B]

Yeah. Thank you. So then we get a paragraph that Christopher says is actually a note written in the margin, but that nevertheless belongs to this 1954 essay. And in it, we learn even more about this weakness that comes with their incarnate nature. They had to learn by slow experience. You know, their wisdom was not innate. They did not come to Arda with all the wisdom that came from their ainar and forms. They, again, probably relating to the corruption of their bodies. They had to get it back and

[A]

maybe in some ways also related to the limits placed on them by the Valar.

[B]

Like, oh, that's a good insight. Yeah.

[A]

You're going to be behind a little bit on purpose because it will help keep you humble. It'll help keep you in this position of being able to lead. Not by leading, but by inspiring.

[B]

Oh, I like that a lot. Yeah. You come at it with a little bit more, if innocence is the word, but sort of like just less knowledge, you know?

[A]

Yeah. They were aware of where they were from. Right. They knew Valinor, but they didn't have a clear memory of it anymore, which, yeah, in a way that makes me feel sad. But, you know, it's like, what all of these memories. I mean, this isn't like Men in Black and, you know, Manway waved a little thing in front of flashed. You know, though, that is an interesting idea. Before they get on the boat, they get flashed, but instead of having a memory, they. They just have this deep longing. But I like the way Tolkien puts it in the text because he makes it clear that the longing for home existed so long as they remained true to their mission.

[B]

That's interesting. Yeah.

[A]

You could almost use that as, like, a compass. If I no longer yearn to go to Valinor, I am off track.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That's interesting.

[B]

Yeah, it's like almost. I mean, it's metaphorically like a moral compass.

[A]

Yeah, it really is, isn't it?

[B]

It's a moral compass pointing you back towards the west.

[A]

It's a checkpoint. Like, if I'm not craving Valinor, then I'm headed in the wrong direction.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So when is it that Saruman finally says, I don't care anymore. I don't want to go back to Valinor. I like it here. I have power here. That might have actually happened a day after he arrived. You know, I mean, he's jealous of Gandalf from the get go.

[B]

It might have, but. But again, think about the first thing that his spirit does after he's killed.

[A]

Oh, yeah, can I come home?

[B]

He looks to Valinor, right. So he might have forgotten about it. He might have been like, you know what? I'm cool.

[A]

They can't see me from here.

[B]

Yeah. I'm gonna study. I'm gonna breed orcs. It's gonna be awesome. This is gonna be great.

[A]

Power and influence, wealth and all this stuff.

[B]

But he didn't totally forget because as soon as he dies, his spirit rises up out of his body and it turns to the west. Gets a big no, but you know.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

He wants it.

[A]

He does.

[B]

That's interesting.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think you're right. I was connecting this to the corruptibility of their bodies a moment ago, but you're right, this is intentional.

[A]

Yeah, I think so.

[B]

Because we actually are told here in the text that the purpose of these weaknesses was to better enable them to fight Sauron.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And Tolkien says that by suffering these things willingly, Tolkien says they're better suited to redress the evils.

[A]

I like that. Because.

[B]

What do you think of that?

[A]

Well, I feel like it's saying, look, if you can be humble and stay humble and not go after power and not forget the good in the chase for the power to affect it, then you will be more effective in your mission, which is to help people fight Sauron. Your job is to defeat Sauron not because you are powerful or more powerful than Sauron, but because you can inspire and teach and guide. That's your job. And you're going to be doing that more effectively if you're doing that from a position of humility rather than a position of pride.

[B]

So you're not going to be out there trying to get the hero moments. You're not going to be out there trying to go out. And no offense to Fingolfin, but you're not going to go out there and challenge Sauron Combat.

[A]

That's not your job.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So at the end, there's this phrase about enduring the pangs of exile and the deceits of Sauron. And we talked earlier in a previous passage about their humility and. All right, so I can't help but see something here that I don't Always see in these texts, which is sort of almost a biblical connection to something I kind of feel. And I know people have tried to say that, you know, Gandalf has, like, sort of Christ like, parallels because of his resurrection. And I understand that. I totally get why you make that connection.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

But I don't know that I'd made this connection before. This. This idea of. Of willingly suffering the. The pangs of exile, the deceits of Sauron very much brings to my mind the idea of the suffering servant, which is the. The prophecy in the book of Isaiah that is theologically fulfilled in Christ in terms of the humility and the fact that he is innocent and does nothing wrong, but he suffers, he dies, and then is later vindicated and raised up. And so Christians interpret that as a messianic prophecy. Obviously, Jewish interpretations are going to be different. Mileage may vary totally fine. I really feel like that language connects here and. And that wouldn't surprise me coming from Tolkien.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Especially because, like, this letter is to. Was this. This was the letter to Murray as well. Some of this was. But then there's the text from the book that isn't so. But. But there's a lot of things here that make you feel like, okay, I can see that this is sort of. Again, never one to one, but sort of a connection. There's a little linguistic, like, here, let me make you think of this.

[B]

I would not put that past Tolkien at all. I mean, again, it's the idea that the works. Over time, more pieces of Tolkien's Catholic theology kind of glommed on to the story as he was writing it. And I would totally see that happening here, actually.

[A]

That just brings to mind all the way Galadriel changes over the years because she does become so much more Marian over the years of his development of the character. You're absolutely right that it is sort of a progression, but I can see this because he's writing this in 1954, certainly being stronger in that regard. That makes sense.

[B]

Absolutely. I think that makes a lot of sense. That's really cool.

[A]

So while we finished the reading at the spot that we did, the passage actually does continue for another paragraph, first introducing us to Radagast, but not before pointing out that Gandalf, who's the last comer mentioned in the line, was the only one of the wizards who stayed true to his task.

[B]

Mm. And he repeats that actually in letter 156. He says, Gandalf alone fully passes the tests on a moral plane anyway. He makes mistakes of judgment Tolkien says.

[A]

Of course he does.

[B]

Of course he does. Because he can. Right. He's incarnate.

[A]

He's incarnate.

[B]

He can make mistakes. Yeah. Anyway, let's get back to Radagast, because we're told that he failed as. Well, not as spectacularly as Saruman.

[A]

Well, no. Who does? The problem with Radagast is he lost his focus. Right. He was supposed to work on men and elves to fight Sauron. Instead, he's trying to get, like, Tweety Bird and, you know, Wile E. Coyote and Tom and Jerry. Like, they're not going to fight Sauron.

[B]

These parakeets, they're going to be the ones that do it. They're going to make sure Parakeets of doom. We can count on the parakeets.

[A]

That's right. And this whole problem about him losing his focus and becoming focused on the wild animals and the birds, that's actually the source of his name. Radagast is a name that the text says means tender of beasts.

[B]

Yeah. With a footnote explaining that in a very late note on the names. Radagast is a word derived from the language of the men of the Vales of Anduin. But Tolkien says that it's not now clearly interpretable. Now, that's purely in universe. I have to give a shout out here to John Ratliff, because in the History of the Hobbit, he actually dives into the name of the.

[A]

He sure did, didn't he?

[B]

Yeah, he did. And he says that there's surprisingly strong evidence that Radagast's name may, out of universe, of course, be derived from Slavic,

[A]

which is interesting because that's not a language that Tolkien dives into for a lot of inspiration.

[B]

That's absolutely right. And Radcliffe points that out. He's like, it's kind of strange that he does this, you know, with this.

[A]

So, you know, if we remember, Radagast was introduced to the Legendarium or all the way back in the Hobbit, he's first referred to as Gandalf's good cousin. In the chapter where Beorn was introduced.

[B]

That's right. But if you remember, folks, in the earliest draft of that chapter. What, this is going back to season two for us, Alex?

[A]

Yes, it is. It's early season two. Yeah.

[B]

In the earliest draft of that chapter, Beorn's name was originally Medved, which is actually a Slavic derived word. It's basically the word for bear in Russian. And so we've got another Slavic name introduced at the same time as Radagast. And Ratliff thinks that both characters might have been introduced with Slavic names at the same time. Which is. It is as you said, Alan, it's really strange because Tolkien doesn't really is. He doesn't play in the Slavic languages very much.

[A]

That's a whole language group. He just doesn't touch very often. And in support of this theory, there is a God called Radagast, R A D E G A S T mentioned in Medieval Chronicles, who is apparently worshiped by the Polabian Slavs in what is now eastern Germany.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So interesting and deep dive credit to John Ratliff for that. Wow.

[B]

It's very cool. And again, reasons to pick up books like his.

[A]

You're not kidding.

[B]

So anyway, we go back to Saruman again and then we get this addition of the Lahn element which makes his name Saruman the White.

[A]

Right. And he failed. Not because his focus shifted from people to animals. That actually would have been okay. Kind of wish he had probably would

[B]

have been better than what actually happened.

[A]

Would have been a lot less damage. No, his problem, he became proud and impatient and boy, did we just go back to the sins of Melkor right there or what?

[B]

Yeah, pride and impatience.

[A]

Two of the big ones right off the bat. And he worked to have his own will by force. So very much an echo of that. So, you know, he thought he could get rid of Sauron on his own, but of course he was trapped by the mightier enemy. And we're live from the living room as Doug eyes up the match. Say spread. He's reaching for the buffalo wing. Perfect.

[B]

Hang on.

[A]

What's this? Oh, he's gone for a can of Pepsi too. Incredible. What a finish. Sensational combination. Look at the delight on his face. There's no doubt about it. He just takes taste better. Match days deserve Pepsi. Food deserves Pepsi. Grab a pack of Pepsi Zero sugar for today's match. It's poetry in motion. Study and play come together on a Windows 11 PC. And for a limited time, college students get the best of both worlds. Get the unreal college deal. Everything you need to study and play with select Windows 11 PCs. Eligible students get a year year of Microsoft 365 Premium and a year of Xbox game pass ultimate with a custom color Xbox wireless controller. Learn [e-mail] studentoffer law supplies last ends June 30th terms at aka Ms. CollegePC. This episode is brought to you by Fox One. Watch all 104 matches of the FIFA World cup live in 4K for just $19.99 a month with three three days free. Build your own multi view, choose up to three streams and follow player spotlights. Stay on top of every moment with live stats, highlights and instant replays. The FIFA World cup, streaming live on Fox One, offers a subject to change. See fox.com for complete terms and conditions.

[B]

Well, we told you about the amazing PPP community after our earlier break. If you're a part of that community and you want to enjoy something, something even more special, come join the Fellowship of the Podcast on Patreon. You get to be in the best discord community around, one that includes host hangouts and even live episode recordings.

[A]

And your support there is what enables me to work full time doing all of these shows. The PPP Today's Tolkien Times, the Rings of Power Wrap up if Amazon ever gets off their tails and my streaming show the PPP plays when you join. You also get episode postscripts ad free episodes, free merch and more.

[B]

And you can join our Questions after Nightfall episodes or even appear as a guest in the north wing. Go to patreon.com prancingponypod to show your support and join the Fellowship of the Podcast.

[A]

Now. Don't forget to rate and review on Apple Podcasts and on Spotify. And please recommend us to your friends. You can do that directly on Spotify now. Just share the show with them.

[B]

All right, well, we've got one more reading for this episode today, and Alan, you're going to read to us a little bit about the Elf of the Wand.

[A]

I will indeed. But the last Comer was named among the elves, Mithrandir, the Grey Pilgrim. For he dwelt in no place, and gathered to himself neither wealth nor followers. But ever went to and fro in the Westlands, from Gondor to Angmar, and from Lindon to Lorien, befriending all folk in times of need. Warm and eager was his spirit, and it was enhanced by the ring. Narya for he was the enemy of Sauron, opposing the fire that devours and wastes, with the fire that kindles and succors in Wanhope and distress. But his joy and his swift wrath were veiled in garments gray as ash, so that only those that knew him well glimpsed the flame that was within. Merry he could be, and kindly to the young and simple, simple and yet quick at times, to sharp speech and the rebuking of folly. But he was not proud, and sought neither power nor praise. And thus far and wide he was beloved among all those that were not themselves Proud mostly. He journeyed unwearyingly on foot, leaning on a staff. And so he was called among men of the North, Gandalf the Elf of the wand. For they deemed him, though in error, as has been said to be of Elvenkind since he would at times work wonders among them loving especially the beauty of fire. And yet such marvels he wrought mostly for mirth and delight and desired not that any should hold him in awe or take his counsels out of fear. Elsewhere it is told how it was that when Sauron rose again, he also arose and partly revealed his power and becoming the chief mover of the resistance to Sauron, was at last victorious and brought all by vigilance and labor to that end which the Valar under the one that is above them had designed. Yet it is said that in the ending of the task for which he came, he suffered greatly and was slain. And being sent back from death for a brief while was clothed then in white and became a radiant flame, yet veiled still, save in great need.

[B]

I see who it is now. Okay, now I got it.

[A]

You put two and two together.

[B]

Yeah. All right. I see what you did there, Professor. This is the guy, right? I mean, this is the star of the show and we're talking about the Istadi. Who is more important, more beloved than Mithrandir.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

His name means Grey Pilgrim. Says it right there in the text. So I don't have any extra word nerdery for you. That's it.

[A]

Come on, Sean. That's what I brought you in for,

[B]

what it says on the tin.

[A]

That's right. So why is he named the Gray Wanderer? Well, because he wears gray and Wanders.

[B]

I mean, that's it, really, is what it says.

[A]

He's got no home, he's got no wealth. He's got no followers. I mean, the guy needs a social media manager, for one. But, I mean, here's the question I have, though. I mean, really, I can make fun of it, make a joke, but. But Saruman or Radegast, they're not really said to have followers.

[B]

Like, did any of Saruman?

[A]

I mean, Saruman made his followers out of Orcs.

[B]

He had the Dumblings.

[A]

That's true.

[B]

He did have Dumbleings later on. And he had, you know, he had some influence with Gondor early on and Rohan early on, so that is true. Maybe those Radagasts, though.

[A]

Can't imagine he would have followers of big giant rabbits with sharp, nasty, pointy teeth.

[B]

Right, Right.

[A]

Look at the.

[B]

You know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But, yeah, I mean, again, parakeets. Sure. Army of parakeets, folks.

[A]

What you did see is I was drinking water when he said that, and I had to fight not to do a spit take. In fighting the spit take, I almost choked. Thank you, Sean. I feel at home again.

[B]

And that's the day Sean killed Alan on the Francing Pony podcast.

[A]

Oh, man.

[B]

Yeah. I really don't get Radagast and followers. He really does not seem to have any. But maybe. Maybe.

[A]

That's maybe. And the blues might have. We have no idea one way or the other.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Certainly if they had cults, then they would have followers. Kind of the definition of a cult.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Yeah. Okay.

[B]

Oh, man, that's a wild thought. Anyway, so with Mithrandir, we get the range of his wanderings, and it covers most of the northwest of Middle Earth.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Now, we've talked before about how the rings of power amplify inherent traits in the person who wears them. Right.

[A]

You know, powers or even character traits. Right. Like Smeagol, you know.

[B]

Yeah, right, exactly. It just sort of amplifies not just your abilities, but just your. You. Your units. And we definitely get that for sure. I mean, we see his naturally warm and eager spirit is strengthened by his possession of Nadia. I love that. This is one of my absolute favorite juxtapositions in the legendarium. Like setting him up as an enemy of Sauron, but he uses the same element. They both use fire, but it's a different kind of fire.

[A]

He's different. And I love that because you could easily set them up as total opposites. Right. He could be the guy who could

[B]

be water or something. Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Wonder twin powers activate

[B]

with the rings. Just going.

[A]

That's right, exactly. But, no, he uses fire. And I love this comparison. You compare the consuming fire with a kindling fire, one that provides help in dark times. And I've got to say, Juan, hope is the perfect word here. It is, not surprisingly, archaic Middle English. So. Thank you, Professor. It's a late 13th century word. It doesn't mean what you might think it means. And I'll get to that. What it means is a total lack of hope, despair, or despondency. And in fact, it actually had a theological origin. It meant an insufficient faith in God's mercy. So it was like a fatal flaw, like you.

[B]

It's like a theological despair. This is like the spell of despair.

[A]

Yeah. Now, you know hope. You know, Juan hope. Hope. You understand, Juan in this context means lacking, wanting, or deficient. The online etymological dictionary that I often use more resources for your bookshelf or your digital bookshelf says that it was used interchangeably with the more recognizable prefix un. So it's un. Hope.

[B]

Yeah, that's right. And I looked it up in the Oxford English Dictionary as well, because I get access to that through my library, thankfully. And. Yeah, because at first when I looked at this, I saw, well, the prefix one that looks like the adjective wand, which means, you know, dark or dim, you know, so, like, it's a dim

[A]

hope, you know, that's what I thought it was.

[B]

Right. That's what I had first thought. It's like, this is. Which makes sense. It makes semantic sense, but that's not the same root. The OED says they might be cognate, they might be related, but they have totally different meanings. And you nailed it, Alan. This is not a dim hope or a faint hope. This is an un. Hopeful. This is. You could replace this word with unhope, and it means the exact same thing. A true lack of hope.

[A]

Exactly. And it's sort of like we've talked before about hope being on this. Hope and despair. I used to think of it, I think, initially as despair was at zero and hope was at 10. And eventually we're like, no, no, no, zero. There is a middle. You can be hopeless, but not in despair. Right. Hope is a 10. Despair is a negative 10, and 0 is in the middle. It's hopeless, but not despairing. This is like the negative 10. This is an absence, a total opposite of hope. It is despair. It is despondent. And it's a really strong word here because this is where his help is designed to come, like at the very, very end of things, to succor in one. Hope and distress. That's where you're at. Gandalf is here to help you to

[B]

kindle hope for those who. Who have the opposite of it. It's beautiful.

[A]

Really, really beautiful. But in accomplishing all of this, he was very low key about it. Right. He was veiled in garments gray as ash, sort of hiding his nature. What do you make of that? The gray as ash thing seems to connect to me to the fire, to the idea of the element. Like, he could have said gray is, you know, a cloudy sky or. Or gray as. I don't know. The cloudy sky is about all I can think of besides ash. But, I mean, ash is a naturally gray thing. It's a great word to use, but it does sort of bring to mind that visual of fire.

[B]

It does. And, yeah, I don't know if he means ash, as in, you know, what's left over after you burn something, or ash as in the tree.

[A]

Oh, that could work, too. Yeah.

[B]

But I at least love the ambiguity because he has been talking about fire, he's been talking about kindling. And I'm just gonna carry this metaphor to a crazy limit. Like, I mean, if you think of hope as a kindling flame ash is what's left when hope is gone.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And Gandalf comes to those who have no hope anymore, whose hope has been.

[A]

And even though he is in this visual thing that looks like this he's hiding the reality, which is that kindling fire that he has.

[B]

Yeah, it's this drab, this gray knot.

[A]

He's not wearing a blood red robe, right?

[B]

Yeah. Or something bright green that everybody's like, oh, that's cheery, you know, it's not that. It's gray.

[A]

Inferity Wizard. Hi. Oh, Pippin, you're a fool.

[B]

I'm here to kindle hope. Look at my ring of fire. Yeah, it's not that. I think that's really cool. I love that.

[A]

Yeah, I do, too.

[B]

The description of his personality here fits perfectly with what we know about Gandalf. I mean, his kindness, his sharpness, his rebuking of folly. Just ask Pippin about that one.

[A]

Poor, poor Pippin.

[B]

Yeah. But also his humility, the lack of desire for power. I mean, this is Gandalf. This is what we see. He does not go around in Lord of the Rings telling Theoden and Denethor and Aragorn to follow him. He wants to counsel. He wants to give them hope.

[A]

He wants them to lead. He wants to inspire them to lead and do the thing that they do. And it works with Theoden, but it doesn't work with Denethor.

[B]

Right. Well, and the text tells us that he was beloved, but specifically among those that were not themselves proud.

[A]

That certainly speaks to Denethor, doesn't it?

[B]

Denethor. That's Denethor. Denethor was proud. And Denethor just didn't get him. Yeah, just like he didn't get Faramir.

[A]

You could even say Saruman, too, because, you know, let's even take the broken Saruman who's been defeated and is stuck in Orthancing. Gandalf comes and gives him another chance. It doesn't matter. He's still too proud. He's just too proud. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So most of the time in his wanderings, he didn't ride a horse. He said that. You know, we read that he simply walked around because, you know, public transport in Middle Earth is really awful. You know, the subways run. Exactly. So, you know, he's walking around. So he's using his staff. That's how he got his name, Gandalf. It's a name that means elf of the wand. I want to make sure you all understand it does not mean Grand Elf.

[B]

Not saying anything. You're going to get me in trouble. I'm not. Not okay. No comment.

[A]

Oh, man. I was trying. I almost. I wanted to give that.

[B]

Okay. It really was. That was. Look, I'm not here to beat up on that show that I still watch.

[A]

Some elements of the show are wonderful.

[B]

I will watch again when it comes back. You know, that was an eye roll moment, though.

[A]

That was a why does it hurt so much? Moment eyeroll.

[B]

That was a moment that runs kind of counter to the way Tolkien uses language.

[A]

Yes. That's the thing. I didn't. Yeah.

[B]

Because what Tolkien does is he goes to the actual meanings and origins of words and he plays with that. He doesn't play with it. Sounds like puns.

[A]

Right? He doesn't do these sounds.

[B]

He does do puns. Yeah. But he doesn't do these kinds of puns.

[A]

This is in fact, what you might have is the opposite of this. You might have. Let's say we call people who are really smart Grand Elves. I'm making this up. Right. But let's say that's like what we call people. We find out that it's because one day there was a guy named Gandalf who was this amazingly wise wizard. Right. That's how he uses the idea of one name inspiring another. Not this flipped.

[B]

It would be. Yes, it's true. This would be the asterisk reality of that.

[A]

The asterisk reality.

[B]

The asterisk root of that term. Not this.

[A]

Not the other way around.

[B]

Yep. No. Anyway, and it just. It was. You're gonna get me in trouble.

[A]

If we were talking about Celebrimbor, we would have a really great conversation about the Annatar Celebrimbor dialogue and how amazing that that was because it was wonderful. It was fantastic.

[B]

Absolutely loved it. Fantastic visuals, great story, great performances, even from, you know, Charles Edwards. I was not sold on Celebrimbor, but,

[A]

man, he sure was sold on him then. Yeah.

[B]

He just nailed it.

[A]

It was so great. Lutely. I mean, like, we're talking Emmy worthy performances. Yeah.

[B]

But then there's stuff like this and it's just like. It's just not.

[A]

Let's shake my Head moment for sure. Yeah. Anyway, moving on before we get into more.

[B]

Nothing to see here. So, yeah, like why elf of the wand? Well, again, it's because just like men had already believed about the wizards, men thought he was an elf. Not because of his seeming immortality, but because of his fireworks.

[A]

I mean, it sure seems that way, right? Like, oh, he does fancy things. He must be an elf.

[B]

Kind of what it says it does.

[A]

As for those skills though, right, he used them like the fireworks for mirth and delight. Because we're explicitly told he did not want people to be in awe of him. He did not want people to be afraid of him.

[B]

And then we get a brief summary of the climax of his work in the Third Age. His role as the leader of the opposition to Sauron. Again, leading the way he does not from the front, leading from the back, encouraging others to take the lead. And notably we're told that what he accomplished was what the Valar under the one that is above them had designed. So this is not just the Valar's plan, this is Iluvatar's plan.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

Straight to the top.

[A]

Yep. Which makes perfect sense when we get into some of his death, which we're going to talk about a little bit right here. Because we get that transition from Gandalf the Grey to Gandalf the White, right? His death and his return in power up form. And now I'm thinking of Mario when he eats the mushroom and gets really big.

[B]

I was going with like third stage Pokemon, but no. All right, children have ruined us.

[A]

They really have. We need to go Back to letter 156 here Though, as Tolkien explains the reason for this new and improved Gandalf. He writes, the wizards as such had failed. Or if you like, the crisis had become too grave and needed an enhancement of power. So Gandalf sacrificed himself, was accepted and enhanced and returned.

[B]

Yes. And this enhancement especially was necessary, Tolkien points out, because he says that, you know, when this enhanced Gandalf speaks, he commands attention. The old Gandalf could not have dealt so with Theoden, nor with Saruman.

[A]

You know, I was a little bit surprised by the Theoden one. I could understand certainly that Gandalf the Grey could not have dealt with Saruman. Ganov the White could. It's a little surprised to see Theoden mentioned there. It's not like an opposition of power, but he just could not have inspired him enough because Theoden was so deep in despair. Like there's just not enough.

[B]

Yeah, that counselor role, that unassuming, non threatening Gandalf the Grey just couldn't have done it. We needed a little bit of majesty.

[A]

But he's still under the same rules, Right? Conceal your power. Teach people you can't force them. But he does have a longer leash, right? He's allowed to use greater power quote, where the physical powers of the enemy are too great for the goodwill of the opposers to be effective.

[B]

Yeah. And Tolkien gives some examples of this, right? Like his two rescues of Faramir or his standing in the gate of Minas Tirith against the Witch King.

[A]

I still. I want Tolkien to tell me how that would have ended if the horn hadn't blown. I really do. But anyway.

[B]

Yeah, but Back to the 1954 essay here. In the part that we skipped reading. Tolkien actually draws a distinction between Gandalf and Saruman.

[A]

That's right. When Sauron is defeated, Gandalf heads over the sea, while Saruman's fate is less pleasant. Right. Cast down and utterly humbled and perished at last by the hand of an oppressed slave. Grima would like a word. Oppressed slave. I don't even know.

[B]

What do you call an oppressed slave?

[A]

That's right. God, it's like in the Rings of Mormon.

[B]

Stabbed him at the end.

[A]

It was great. You should have named me.

[B]

Yeah, right. Come on. I'm the guy who killed Saruman. You can't name me in the history.

[A]

You'd think I would at least earn that right, but, you know, it's fair because he can sit there with Sam and be like, we both didn't get named. I'm thinking of the Rings of Power, the Third Age, Frodo with his manservant.

[B]

With his manservant.

[A]

You're like, sam would like a word. Come on. Come on, man. I mean, I get married, Pippen not being named, but come on, I carried your butt up the dang mountain. I don't get a mention. Here,

[B]

I can carry you for an executive producer credit.

[A]

Oh, my gosh. That's great. I love it. Oh, man.

[B]

Back to Saruman.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Let's talk again about the fate of his spirit. We kind of hinted at some of this earlier. In Lord of the Rings, after he's slain, we actually see the west reject his spirit. We're told that about the body of Saruman. A gray mist gathered and rising slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire As a pale, shrouded figure, it loomed over the hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the west. But out of the west came a cold wind and it bent away and with a Sigh. Dissolved into nothing. Which gives me chills every time I read it. I know, it's so vivid. But here we read that his spirit went wherever it was fated to go and that he never came back to Middle Earth, incarnate or otherwise.

[A]

That's interesting. Like, it doesn't give the details. Just never came back to Middle Earth.

[B]

Earth.

[A]

Which, I mean, that makes sense. Of course. He's not. I don't know what would have happened. It dissolved into nothing. But he is still an Ainu spirit. So I think we speculated at the time that he probably had to go back to the timeless halls and have a chat with eru.

[B]

I would think so, yeah.

[A]

I would not want to be him for that conversation.

[B]

No, no. That's going to be a tough one.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Especially since the last person who came back from. Because, you know, it was only a few months ago then.

[A]

Yeah. Which would feel like yesterday.

[B]

Gandalf did the same thing, Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is. I mean, in ERU time. This is like, you know, dismiss Gandalf like Saruman. Come in.

[A]

Saraman next.

[B]

Your turn. Like, oh, oh, okay. So, yeah. Who was just here. Yeah. Okay. No, yeah, no, he's. He's getting the promotion. You're not.

[A]

That's right. You're getting fired. And more than getting fired.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We're going to just turn you into ash.

[B]

You're getting annihilated.

[A]

That's right. Eternal nothing.

[B]

Maybe. I don't know.

[A]

Yeah, we'll figure it out. Well, anyway, this ends the 1954 essay and it's probably a good time for us to end this episode. The rest of the chapter consists of material pulled from other sources, including the tale of years that we'll look at when we start next episode. It is said that in the ending of the task for which he came, Barliman suffered greatly and was slain. And being sent back from death, was sent straight to the Prancing Pony and became nothing at all, like a radiant flame. Sean, what does Barliman have in his bag for us today?

[B]

That was a segue, my friend. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

All right. Well, we do have a fun one. In the mailbag today, listener Sydney asked us, is the reason Tolkien never writes from Gandalf's perspective because he's a Maya and therefore has too much knowledge that ordinary people wouldn't or couldn't have. Most of the book is told from the perspectives of the Hobbits. However, there are some scenes from the other races, like the three hunters and Faramir and Eowyn. What we learn about Gandalf comes from two what he himself reveals and we know. He rarely shares everything he knows or what other characters see him say and do.

[A]

That's a good point. I mean, even the, even the stuff that is written, quote unquote, from Gandalf's perspective, like in the appendices, it's still Frodo writing down what Gandalf has told him. It's never Gandalf the narrator.

[B]

True. That's true.

[A]

That's interesting. I. I suspect there's that. Yes. That is one of the reasons, you know, he. Tolkien does use that. That system where he tries to write the perspective from the perspective of the character. Who knows the least.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is why it's usually the Hobbits.

[B]

The epistemic regime.

[A]

That's the word. Thank you, Professor Drought. Yeah. Yes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And usually that's the Hobbits. Usually that's Sam. When it's. When it breaks down, if it's all four, it's still Sam. If it's Frodo and Sam, it's Sam. If it's Mary and Pippen, it's Pippen most often. But.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It's. It's interesting. I mean, when it's the three hundreds, I'm thinking of the Re. The retelling of the Paths of the Dead. It's very much Gimli's perspective. Who would know the least of these three, you know?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And. And I. There's certainly something about this that rings true. That like. Well, it's never going to be from Gandalf's perspective because he knows more than just about all of them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's the same reason why we're not going to get the Council from Elrond's perspective.

[B]

True. Yeah.

[A]

You know, or. Or the experience in Lothlorien from Galadriel and Celeborn's perspective. They're the ones who know the most, so. Yeah, that makes sense.

[B]

Yeah. And I think that's it. I think. And I think that epistemic regime, or the use of the epistemic regime, I guess the epistemic regime itself is just the fact that different characters have different levels of knowledge.

[A]

Different knowledge.

[B]

The fact that he tells the story from the point of view of the least knowledgeable person. I think that helps us as readers learn along with the characters. I mean, think about how much we learn of Middle Earth through the Hobbit's eyes because they don't really understand much outside the Shire. I think that is probably less disorienting for us as readers than being Thrown into something that we wouldn't understand.

[A]

True.

[B]

You know, we get a chance to learn along with those characters. I also think he probably wants to keep some mystery around him.

[A]

Oh, definitely. You think about the way he doesn't tell all the stories.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like he doesn't share everything he knows. And I think that Tolkien's intentional about that. I think if. I think if we were to get inside Gandalf's head and get something from his point of view, I don't know, it seems like the kind of thing that we think we want as readers, but if we actually got there, it might just be too much information.

[A]

Well, and that's the thing. I think it gives Tolkien, by sticking with the least knowledgeable character, it gives Tolkien a chance to do exposition through the character's dialogue. I'm thinking of the Shadow of the Past, for instance. If we were seeing it from Ganof's perspective, he would have to. To narrate that as narrator text rather than dialogue between Gandalf and Frodo. And that's too much information. Like we need that information in the context of story. So I would probably add to Sidney's question that I wouldn't necessarily say it's because he's a Maya. I would just say it's because he has this knowledge. Because like I mentioned, we wouldn't get the Council from Elrond's perspective. We wouldn't get the experience in Lothlorien from Galadriel's perspective of it's the same reason that we get from the least knowledgeable character. That's really all it has to do. It's not necessarily his nature. It's his nature that gives him the knowledge.

[B]

Yeah, right. It's not like the Maiar are off limits. It's that the most knowledgeable character is

[A]

always characters with the no more.

[B]

Yeah, right. Yeah. Is always off limits.

[A]

That makes sense.

[B]

Yeah, I like that. I think that makes a lot of sense. And I think it's just like you said, it allows him to use exposition a little bit more in a more interesting way.

[A]

Yeah. In a more, I think, reader friendly way and in a more story incorporated way, you know?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, we kind of joke about Shadow of the Past being an exposition dump and it is, but it's done in the context of Frodo asking questions. Questions that we as the reader would ask, you know, like, oh, well, why didn't, you know, Bilbo kill Gollum when he had the chance? And then Gandalf gets to tell us. Or I Don't understand. Wasn't this, you know, wasn't Sauron defeated? Oh, well, let me explain to you why.

[B]

Right, yeah.

[A]

That's great that we get to hear that in the context of story.

[B]

Yes. And I think if you. If you had that chapter from Gandalf's perspective and you're reading it as narration as if you're inside his head, it just wouldn't be as dynamic. It wouldn't be as dramatic, it wouldn't be as exciting.

[A]

No, I agree.

[B]

So, yeah, I think that's right on.

[A]

Yeah. Good question, though, Sydney. Really, I enjoyed answering it, too. It's always fun to think of the way Tolkien does this through these characters, you know, and tells the story. Well, folks, thank you for joining us for another episode of the Prancing Pony podcast. Please come back again next week as Manwe holds a council meeting. And Gandalf would rather work from home.

[B]

I don't blame Gandalf.

[A]

I mean, can this be a remote job?

[B]

Right? Like, come on, everybody. Every. Everybody's doing it now.

[A]

That's right. We're all doing remote.

[B]

Yeah, I can. I can zoom into the conference calls, you know. Anyway, folks, Allan and I want to thank the members of Team ppp. That's our editor, Jordan Renels, our barlowman Becca Davis, social media manager Casey Hilsey, event and Patreon community coordinator Katie McKenna, graphic artist Megan Collins, video editor Yonatan Lazens, and website guru Phil D. Please

[A]

take a minute to check out the prancingponypodcast.com that's where you'll find show notes, outtakes, those old Prancing Pony pondering Sean and I talked about at the beginning of the episode, and our fully revamped PPP merch store. That's where you can get all sorts of cool merch, including the amazing chapter art that Megan's been toing for us for nearly four years now.

[B]

We're all about the books here at the Prancing Pony podcast, so be sure to also visit our library page. We try to make sure that any book we've mentioned on the show is linked there for you to purchase. And we do get a small amount of compensation when you make your purchase, so thank you for that.

[A]

Indeed. And we also want to thank our patrons at the Kir Dan's contribution tier. I'll start with Demay in Alaska, Chad in Texas, Joseph in Michigan, Kathy from North Carolina, Brian in the uk, Jerry from Washington, Irwin from the Netherlands, Ben in Minnesota, Anthony in Texas, Zaksu in Illinois, Joshua in Massachusetts, Lucy in Texas, Erica in Texas, James in Massachusetts, Ann in Kentucky, and Sean in New Jersey.

[B]

And there's also Mason in California, Maureen from Massachusetts, Olivia in London, Robert in Arizona, Nick in Wisconsin, Lewis in South Carolina, Thomas in Germany, Craig in California, Kevin in Massachusetts, Joe in Maryland, Dee Scott in California, Jeffrey in Michigan, Paul in California, Colorado, David from Connecticut, and Teresa from Texas. Folks, thank you all so very much for your support.

[A]

Seriously, thank you very, very much.

[B]

And make sure you don't miss any episodes of the Prancing Pony Podcast. Subscribe now through Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or your favorite podcast app.

[A]

And one last thing. As always, don't forget to send your thoughts, comments and most of all, your marvels wrought mostly from Earth and delight. Barloman the prancingponypodcast.com Now Barlaman does have

[B]

a lot of mail to sort through, so we'll just try to get to you as soon as we can.

[A]

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