420 – I Have Always Been Here

Summary

The Prancing Pony Podcast – Episode 420: “I Have Always Been Here”

Release date: July 5, 2026
Hosts: Alan Sisto & Sean Marchese
Main Theme: A deep, lore-rich exploration of Tolkien’s Astari (Wizards), focusing on their origins, purpose, and many names based on “The Istari” chapter from Unfinished Tales, with much of the usual humor, digressions, and philological delight characteristic of PPP.

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Episode Overview

This episode continues a detailed, three-part exploration of Tolkien’s wizards—the Astari—through their major source material, especially Unfinished Tales. Alan and Sean, blending smart scholarship with friendly pub banter, focus on the origins, naming, and lore of Saruman, Radagast, and the enigmatic Blue Wizards, foreshadowing a Gandalf-centric deep dive next episode. Through readings, Tolkienian philology, and editorial commentary, they examine Tolkien’s evolving conception of the Astari, the Valar's council that sent them, and the fundamental flaws and hopes bound up in their mission.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Purpose and Nature of the Astari

• The Astari arrived in Middle-earth as messengers from the Valar, tasked not with dominating or using power to combat Sauron, but to inspire and guide Elves and Men in resistance.
• “They were forbidden to match his power with power, or to seek to dominate Elves or Men by force and fear.” – [13:50], Unfinished Tales reading
• Only five of the order are named and discussed in depth: Saruman, Gandalf (to be focused on next week), Radagast, and the two Blue Wizards.

Notable Quote

“They’re absolutely not sent to defeat Sauron. They’re sent to enable the rest of us to defeat Sauron.”
— Alan, [16:38]

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2. Philology Fair: The Many Names of the Wizards

Saruman

• Saruman: Old English searu (skill, cunning, device, art) + man; hence, "man of skill/cunning/art."
• Curunír (Sindarin): “Man of skill/craft.”
• Curumo (Quenya): “Skilled one.”
• Sharkey (Orcish): “Old man.”
• Tarindor (Nature of Middle-earth): "High/wise-minded one," revealing Tolkien’s ever-evolving naming.

Radagast

• Derived possibly from the language of the Vales of Anduin or from a historical Slavic deity.
• Aiwendil (Quenya): “Lover of birds.”
• Hravandil (alternate): “Wild beast friend.”
• Discussion of alternate etymologies: Old English rad (road) + gast (spirit), giving “spirit of the road.”

The Blue Wizards (Alatar & Pallando)

• Usually called by their Valinor names: Alatar and Pallando.
• Alatar possibly linked to “radiance.”
• Pallando may derive from palan (“far,” as in Palantír).
• Alternate names (from Peoples of Middle-earth):
  • Morinetar (“Darkness Slayer”)
  • Romestamo (“East Helper”)
• Alternate speculative names (Nature of Middle-earth):
  • Padakendo (“far-sighted one,” possibly Pallando analogue)
  • Hymenar (“far-farer”)
• Discussion on why they’re always a pair, and jokes about their "Statler and Waldorf" status.

Notable Quotes

“Saruman is basically man of skill or man of cunning or man of art, something like that.”
— Sean, [05:22]

“The Blues… are not two individual people, they're just the Blue Wizards. That’s what they get for always hanging out together.”
— Alan, [09:51]

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3. The Council of the Valar & Choosing the Istari

• A fascinating, fragmentary narrative shows Manwë convening a council with the Valar, possibly consulting Eru, to send three emissaries (“must be mighty peers of Sauron, but must forego might and clothe themselves in flesh”).
• Only Curumo (Saruman, chosen by Aulë) and Alatar (chosen by Oromë) volunteer; Olorin (Gandalf) is chosen by Manwë because of his humility and love for the Eldar. Gandalf is reluctant and claims he fears Sauron—a trait that convinces Manwë he is exactly the right choice.
• Varda refuses to allow Olorin to be considered the “third,” hinting at status and perhaps protecting Gandalf from being perceived as lesser.
• Yavanna begs Aulë (through Curumo) to take Aiwendil (Radagast); Alatar brings Pallando as a friend, expanding from three to five wizards.

Notable Quotes

“That was all the more reason why he should go.” — Tolkien, on Manwë's rationale for sending Gandalf [38:45; summarized throughout Council discussion]

“Not as the third,” said Varda, and Curumo remembered it.
— Tolkien, [38:45]

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4. Comparing Astari Relationships to the Valar

• Each Istar is “of the people” of a specific Vala: Curumo/Saruman of Aulë, Aiwendil/Radagast of Yavanna, Alatar and Pallando both of Oromë, Gandalf/Olorin of Manwë and Varda.
• Speculation that Alatar and Pallando, being of Oromë, were sent east due to Oromë’s knowledge of distant lands.
• The connections are noteworthy, given the checkered history of Aulë’s disciples: Sauron, Saruman, Fëanor, all “corrupted” by creative skill and desire for control.

“It is very notable that Curumo Saruman was chosen by Aulë.”
— Christopher Tolkien (quoted/commented by Alan), [65:02]

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5. Tolkien’s Changing Views on the Blue Wizards

• In later writings (e.g., Peoples of Middle-earth), Tolkien suggests the Blue Wizards (Morinetar and Romestamo) were dispatched early, in the Second Age, for a different task: to hinder Sauron’s influence over eastern tribes and sow dissension—a mission probably achieved, since otherwise the West would have been catastrophically outnumbered.
• Their true impact was to foster resistance among the distant or oppressed peoples, rather than leaving the West to face overwhelming foes.

“They must have had very great influence... in weakening and disarraying the forces of east who would both in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have outnumbered the West.”
— Alan, paraphrasing Tolkien [97:32]

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6. Hard Limits, Failures, and Flaws of the Astari & Valar

• The incarnate state imposed vulnerability and "dimming" of wisdom.
• Saruman failed through pride and a desire for power; Radagast perhaps failed by loving the natural world too much, neglecting the mission; even the Valar are portrayed as flawed—having made the “ancient error” of secluding the Elves in Valinor, later over-correcting with Men.
• Humorous asides about Yavanna’s probable motives and the awkward arrangements for “pairing up” wizards.
• The hosts speculate on the deeper, sub-creative and theological implications of these flaws.

“There’s no delusion like self-delusion.”
— Alan, [07:46]

“Yavanna also loves the things she’s created too much… She doesn’t want any harm to come to them. It’s like the overprotective parent.”
— Sean, [76:31]

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7. The Elves in the Third Age: A Waning Role

• Tolkien’s late notes are explicit: Elves barely contribute at key moments in the War of the Ring; Galadriel is “not a mere observer,” but largely passive, strong only in wisdom, not in “punitive action.” Legolas is humorously singled out as the least effective member of the Fellowship.
• The Istari, most especially Gandalf, provide the critical spark for action and leadership, both offensive and defensive.

“Legolas probably achieved least of the nine Walkers.”
— JRR Tolkien, quoted by Sean, [84:42]

“Galadriel… was potent mainly in wisdom and goodness as a director or counselor in the struggle, unconquerable in resistance, but incapable of punitive action…”
— JRR Tolkien, [84:42]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Blue Wizards:
  “If you want to be known as independent individuals, then get apart from each other. Get a different job, do something.”
  — Alan, [09:51]

• On Gandalf’s Reluctant Heroism:
  “I am too weak for such a task and that I feared Sauron. Then Manwë said that that was all the more reason why he should go…”
  — [38:45] (direct Tolkien quote)

• On Saruman’s Downfall:
  “Saruman is just the mini me of Sauron… He’s cosplaying Sauron.”
  — Alan & Sean, [52:51]

• Comic aside on the Blues:
  “The Blues taught people a three card monty in the east until they got rich up on the up on the corner…”
  — Sean, [32:52]

• On Valar’s Biases:
  “All of the Valar have a similar weakness and that they have a slightly myopic view that is limited to the areas of their strength…”
  — Sean, [77:16]

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Timestamps of Important Segments

• [03:20] – Launch of the Philology Fair: deep dive into the names of Saruman, Radagast, and the Blue Wizards.
• [13:46] – Reading and analysis from Unfinished Tales on the arrival of the Istari.
• [36:32] – Introduction to the fragmentary narrative of the Valar Council that chose the Astari.
• [59:05] – Discussion of the Astari/Valar relationships, and the implications for each wizard’s “nature.”
• [84:42] – Reading from Tolkien’s late notes blaming Legolas and the Elves for Third Age underachievement; Galadriel’s role in the Ring War.
• [94:41] – Peoples of Middle-earth discussion of the Blue Wizards being sent earlier and their crucial, if indirect, impact.
• [109:21] – Listener question: Is every Middle-earth race “magical” in its own way? (Fun examples using Hobbits, dwarves, and Aragorn.)

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Tone, Language & Banter

• Consistently self-effacing, full of puns and pop-culture references (Monty Python, Rush, The Smiths, Babylon 5, Tolkien’s “College of Wizardry” recruitment, etc.).
• Philological rigor balanced by accessible humor (“Radagast…smells like horse”; “Saruman is cosplaying Sauron”; “the Blues as three card monty dealers in the East”).
• Playful but respectful speculation on narrative and meta-narrative questions.
• Warmly inclusive of all Tolkien fans: “No matter whether you came to Middle-earth through the books, the films, the TV show, or something else, each and every one of you is welcome here in our common room…”

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Summary

For Tolkien enthusiasts and casual listeners alike, Episode 420 offers a captivating balance of lore scholarship and comedic fellowship as Alan and Sean unravel the mysteries—and limitations—of Middle-earth’s wizards. The show explores their diverse origins, the tangled motivations of the Valar in sending them, and Tolkien’s many revisions and philosophical angles. It’s a must-listen for fans invested in Tolkien’s broader creation mythos, curious about the Blue Wizards’ true destiny, or just seeking clever Tolkienian banter (and puns) over a pint at the Prancing Pony.

Next episode: A Gandalf-centric journey through the heart of wizardry in Middle-earth.

Transcript

[Alan Sisto]

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[Sean Marchese]

Go easy.

[Alan Sisto]

Sold by car on Carvana. Amazing offer, really. I hit 200 on a scratcher. Did the scratcher come to your house and hand you a check? No. How many scratchers did you hit to get that? I hit a button on Carvana.com once. Okay, that's fair. It's like the lottery, except you always win.

[Sean Marchese]

Not like the lottery at all, actually.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. Inexplicably good offers worth bragging about. Sell your car today on Carvana. Pickup fees may apply. Good evening, little masters, and welcome to episode 420 of the Prancing Pony podcast where we will not seek to dominate elves or men by force and fear.

[Sean Marchese]

As if we could. I mean, really.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that's fair.

[Sean Marchese]

But Folks, pull up a bench in the common room and join us. I'm Sean Marchese, the real life lord of the mark. And I'm here with the man of the west who wishes he aged only slowly, Alan Sisto.

[Alan Sisto]

Fortunately, I still have many powers of mind in hand.

[Sean Marchese]

Maybe keep telling yourself.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, exactly. That's right. No delusion. Like self delusion. Folks, join us as the Valar hold a council meeting and we get a different origin story for the blues as we continue our three episode look the chapter on the Astari in Unfinished Tales.

[Sean Marchese]

And folks, no matter whether you came to Middle Earth through the books, the films, the TV show or something else. Well, each and every one of you is welcome here in our common room. The Prancing Pony Podcast continues in our 10th season of Reading and talking our way through Middle Earth with conversations, digressions, and even speculations, not to mention a

[Alan Sisto]

few puns and bad jokes here and there. But our purpose, our goal, our objective, our intent is to dive deep into the lore, to discuss the story, talk about our favorite characters and themes, maybe Tolkien's inspirations, and a whole lot more.

[Sean Marchese]

And while we take the work seriously, well, the same can't be said about ourselves. We're just a couple of old friends chatting at the pub, and we're really glad you've joined us.

[Alan Sisto]

We are, and I'm sure you'll be glad you joined as well. But before we get to today's chapter discussion, you know, with Sean here, you knew this was coming. It's time for fan favorite Philology Fair, Folks. You can't see it, but Sean is dancing a little jig.

[Sean Marchese]

I was bopping my head, man, that he was.

[Alan Sisto]

Folks, since we're talking about the Astari in this episode, and actually all three of these episodes, we wanted to spend some time digging into these guys and their many names. And we've decided that Gandalf and his many, many, many, like Turin slash Aragorn names, can probably fill their own segment. So we're going to save him for next week. That still leaves us four more to talk about today. Sean, where do we want to start?

[Sean Marchese]

Well, I thought we'd start with Saruman because, well, he would certainly want us to put him first.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right, he would. There are other wizards.

[Sean Marchese]

He might declare war on us if we didn't put him first.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, that's certainly true.

[Sean Marchese]

Send his Uruk hai and his Wargriders to come after us. But no. And we're going to start with his most common name, of course, which is Saruman. Now, we're told, of course, that this is the name that he was given in the languages of Northern men. So we shouldn't be surprised to learn that Tolkien basically got this name from Old English. That's usually what that means when he says Northern men. And this comes from Old English, Saru, which is actually a little variation on the Old English word searu with an E in there, S E, A, R, U. And that means skill or cunning or device or art. So that's the first element of his name. The second element of his name is man, M A N, which just means man. So, Saruman, that one hasn't changed a lot in a thousand years, so.

[Alan Sisto]

No, it hasn't. It hasn't. Well, you could have called me Dennis.

[Sean Marchese]

Didn't know you were called Dennis.

[Alan Sisto]

That was the only thing I could think of the whole time. I'm like, man, old woman.

[Sean Marchese]

Man,

[Alan Sisto]

oh man.

[Sean Marchese]

So. So, yes, Saruman is basically man of skill or man of cunning or man of art, something like that.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay. Well, as it turns out, two of Saruman's other well known names both mean basically the same thing goes Kurnir, which is his Sindarin name, means man of skill or man of craft. I mean, it's exactly what it says on the tin. Yep, Same with the name Kurumo, which we're told was his name in Valinor before he came to Middle Earth as one of the Istari. That's actually Quenya and it means skilled one. Kur meaning like kuru, finwe and all of that.

[Sean Marchese]

Right, right, exactly. That's that exact same Kuru prefix. Yep. There's yet another early name for Saruman that we read about in the Key Dates chapter of the Nature of Middle Earth. So this is pretty recent publication here, and this is a really interesting passage where we're told that when the elves were first invited to Valinor by the Valinor wow way, all the way back in the First Age, back when they were in cuivienen, that there were this group of six Maiar that were sent to invite the elves. And the six Maiar were actually Melian and then these other five guardians they're called, which basically line up. Three of them explicitly line up to the Istari. So in that one we're told that Saruman's early name was Tarindor. That one is glossed by Karl Hostetter as High or Wise Minded one. So not as much focus on the skill and the art, but still kind of giving him this position of prominence among. Among the wizards as the High one, the Wise minded one. That was a fascinating find in Nature of Middle Earth. You know, just a totally different appearance of the wizards. Yeah, and. And just totally different names for all

[Alan Sisto]

the way back at Cui Viennen. I mean, I was only in high school then. I mean, this is. Well, that just leaves the name Sharkey, which of course he was known by among his followers, including the Ruffians and half Orcs who gave Frodo and friends so much trouble when they went back to the Shire. That name, we're told in a footnote, probably came from an Orcish word, Sharku. Meaning old man, which we're told that Saruman didn't object to. He took it as a sign of affection. I'm not sure that's how it was meant, but, you know, delude yourself all you want. What did I say? There's no delusion. Like self delusion.

[Sean Marchese]

Right. You know, if everybody's calling you old man, it's a defense mechanism to assume that it's meant.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, that's just a term of affection. That's right.

[Sean Marchese]

Right, yeah. All right, well, that's enough of Saruman. Now let's go on to the guy who might be Saruman's least favorite co worker. That's Radagast.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, it is.

[Sean Marchese]

Now, as we discussed in the last episode, Radagast's name is said in the text to be derived from the language of the men of the Vales of Anduin, and it possibly means tender of beasts. But we're told again in Unfinished Tales that his name is not clearly interpretable. Now, as we also discussed last week, it seems pretty likely that Tolkien was inspired by the name Radagast, with an e belonging to a God that was worshiped by a group of Slavic people in Central Europe.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Although John Ratliff also suggests it could be derived from a pair of Old English words, rad meaning road and gast, meaning spirit or angel. So Spirit of the Road, which actually sounds like a good Rush song.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, I know, right? I know.

[Alan Sisto]

It's kind of spirit of radio. Okay, Same thing. But I still like it.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, but, you know, like when Neil Peart was, like, kind of going around doing his motorcycle thing, like, he came up with a song called Spirit, no doubt.

[Alan Sisto]

Though it could also mean red spirit, interestingly. But what about Radagast's original name, Sean?

[Sean Marchese]

Okay, well, here in Unfinished Tales, we're told that his original name in Valinor was Aywendil. Now, that's Quenya for lover of birds. And you can probably recognize that common ending, indil, which means devoted to or lover of, that is affixed to the Quenya word aiwe, which means small bird. So that's the most common original name. But again, just like Saruman, you know, if you look at this nature of Middle Earth passage about these five guardians there, we're actually told that his original name was Hravandil, which Karl Hostetter tells us means wild beast friend. Again, it's that indul suffix, lover or devoted to, attached to a Quenya word, hravan, which means wild beast.

[Alan Sisto]

Interesting. So that brings us to The Blues. And I kind of feel sorry for these guys because they're always lumped together. They're just. They're not two individual people. They're just the Blue Wizards. Yeah, but that's what they get for always hanging out together. I mean, if you want to be known as independent individuals, then get apart from each other. Get a different job, do something.

[Sean Marchese]

You know, it's like, does anybody know which one is Statler and which one is Waldorf?

[Alan Sisto]

That's fair. Unlike the other three, the Blue Wizards are most commonly known by their Original or Valinor names, and those are given here in Unfinished Tales. Right. As Alatar and Pallando. We've seen those names a few times. Christopher Tolkien offers no explanation on the name Alatar, but El Damo, which is a really wonderful website for Elvish wars, stands for Elvish Data Model. You heard me talk about it on today's Tolkien Times a few times. They believe that it might be related to Alata, meaning radiance. We find that also in Galadriel's Konya name, Altariel. So it could mean Lord of Radiance the way that Annatar means Lord of Gifts. Now, that is speculation, but it's pretty reasonable speculation to me.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, I agree with that. Now, Christopher Tolkien does tell us a little bit more about Pallando's name. Still speculation, but it's Christopher's speculation here that always counts.

[Alan Sisto]

For more.

[Sean Marchese]

It's a little higher up, you know, a little higher pay grade suggests that Pallando might contain the element palan, which means far as we see in words like Palantir, Farseer. Again, we have some different names for the Blue Wizards, not only in nature of Middle Earth, which I know we're going to talk about in a minute, but also even in peoples of Middle Earth. In the original 12 volumes of history of Middle Earth, there was a manuscript in the last volume of that called Last Writings. Yeah, we'll get to that one today, huh? We are, yes. And I won't spoil some of the cool story stuff we're going to talk about there. But I will talk about the names, because there, they've got totally different names there. They're called Morinetar, which means Darkness Slayer. And you can see that it's got the mor prefix in there, which means black or dark.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[Sean Marchese]

And the other one was Horoma Stamo, which means East Helper. And again, that comes from words like Roman, which means east. Interestingly, there doesn't seem to be anything that tells us which one is which was Morinetar, Alatar. Or was it Pallando? We don't really know. But it seems like from what I could find online, most people assume Morinetar is Alatar just because they're usually named first.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, I see. Because he would normally name Alatar, then Pallando, therefore more Nekhtar and Romastamo.

[Sean Marchese]

Right?

[Alan Sisto]

No, that works. Works for me. Finally. As if it matters, right? Statler and Waldorf. Do we care?

[Sean Marchese]

I know, right? They're pretty indistinguishable.

[Alan Sisto]

Anyway, it's the blues. So, finally, in the same chapter of the Nature of Middle Earth that talks about these five guardians being sent to Cuivienen, there is a mention of two others, Padakendo and Hymenar, that were part of that group. Now again, we're not certain if this is Alatar and Pallando or which one's which if they are. But given that the other three Astari are indeed part of that five guardians, it seems more likely than not that they are. So if so, we should count those among their names as well.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, and if we do that, then we should gloss those by saying Palakendo appears to mean far sighted one. And you know, it looks similar to Pallando, so I'm kind of guessing that's probably the same one, but who knows? Fair and Hymenar would mean far fairer.

[Alan Sisto]

Interesting. Okay, I want to know more. I always want to know more, though. But that's. That's what these books do to you. All right, we don't know for sure if those are the same two Maiar even as Alatar and Pallando, let alone which one's which. But it's great stuff. So thank you for a wonderful philology fair. Let's go ahead and get back to the discussion. Sean, would you take us away with the first reading? Okay, this will sound familiar to you folks. Actually,

[Sean Marchese]

I think I've read this before.

[Alan Sisto]

Uh huh.

[Sean Marchese]

When maybe a thousand years had passed and the first shadow had fallen on Greenwood the Great, the Estadio wizards appeared in Middle Earth. It was afterwards said that they came out of the Far west and were messengers sent to contest the power of Sauron and to unite all those who had the will to resist him. But they were forbidden to match his power with power, or to seek to dominate elves or men by force and fear. They came therefore in the shape of men, though they were never young and aged only slowly, and they had many powers of mind and hand. They revealed their true names to few, but used such names as were given to them. The Two highest of this order, of whom it is said there were five, were called by the Eldar, Curunir, the Man of Skill, and Mithrandir, the Grey Pilgrim, but by men in the North, Saruman and Gandalf. Kurunir journeyed often into the east, but dwelt at last in Isengard. Mithrandir was closest in friendship with the Eldar and wandered mostly in the west, and never made for himself any lasting abode. And then to this Christopher adds, there follows an account of the Guardianship of the Three Rings of the Elves, in which it is said that Cirdan gave the Red Ring to Gandalf when he first came to the Grey Havens from over the sea, for Cirdan saw further and deeper than any other in Middle Earth.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, we did skip Christopher's intro to this section, where he tells you something that you almost certainly know. This entire passage is pulled straight from the Tale of Years of the Third Age. So if it sounded familiar, it's because you've read it at the beginning of a passage, Appendix B, right before the List of Years itself.

[Sean Marchese]

That's right. And much of this is honestly recapping what we read last week about the arrival of the Istari. But it is worth remembering that this was written around the same time as the 1954 essay that we just covered in the last episode.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. And Tolkien finished the appendices in 1955, just before the publication of Return of the King. So it's impossible really to say which came first. But it certainly is reasonable to believe that his work on the essay on the Istari that we looked at last week would have shaped the final version of this text here in Appendix B.

[Sean Marchese]

Now, with that said, let's quickly go through this familiar bit of text once again. The estadi arrive around third age 1000. This is just around the time that Greenwood the Great, the Big Forest, is starting to get a little murky.

[Alan Sisto]

Nice choice of words there, Sean.

[Sean Marchese]

Thank you very much. And they're sent as messengers from Valinor to contest Sauron. Now, this word messenger, is significant. We'll talk more about that later.

[Alan Sisto]

We will.

[Sean Marchese]

But what's really important is that they are explicitly forbidden to fight power with power, and they're not permitted to dominate any of the people. So they're sent as messengers, they're not sent as warriors.

[Alan Sisto]

Correct. They're absolutely not sent to defeat Sauron. They're sent to enable the rest of us to defeat Sauron.

[Sean Marchese]

Right, yeah, right. Right.

[Alan Sisto]

So same shape as before. Like we talked about last Week. Men who are never young. That's us again. But aged only slowly, which is definitely not us.

[Sean Marchese]

Not at all.

[Alan Sisto]

Not a coincidence that he says. Powers of mind and hand. I mean, we talked about Khorineer's name a little while ago. That means man of skill. So that is really who these people are.

[Sean Marchese]

That's right. But there's lots of missing information here, though. I mean, there's nothing about how they're incarnate. There's nothing about how they're capable of being killed or how they suffer like us. They need to eat, they need to sleep, all that stuff. And we really just get a brief mention of the two chief characters here, which is, of course, Gandalf and Saruman. We don't get any mention of Radegast. Certainly no mention of the blues.

[Alan Sisto]

No, we do get a very, very brief recap of their travels. Right. Saruman heads to the east, Gandalf to the west. We also get a little more contrast in the sense that Saruman eventually settles down, while Gandalf is a rolling stone.

[Sean Marchese]

That's right.

[Alan Sisto]

Gandalf is a rolling stone.

[Sean Marchese]

I mean, I love that. That's coming up right after. I just talked about how we don't have the blues. I know.

[Alan Sisto]

I think that's why it did that. It's the Miles Davis centennial, so we need to get some Jaz in there, too, while we're at it.

[Sean Marchese]

Absolutely. We should. Yeah, yeah. Get some. Get some. I don't know. Might have to go back to Ina Lindela and get some trumpets or something.

[Alan Sisto]

There we go. There we go. Trumps and vials and organs and harps.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah. Anyway, after the direct passage from the Tale of Years, then Christopher sums up the next two paragraphs which talk about the three Rings and how Ciridan gave Narya to Gandalf on his arrival. And we already compared those messages last week.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, we looked through all three versions of those. The Tale of Years, the of the Rings of Power in the Third Age, and the version in the Istari. I don't really think that there's a lot else in this particular version of the tale to discuss. It's just an interesting, like, parallel, which is why I think Christopher included it here in Unfinished Tales.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, yeah, I think that's right. Okay, but let's go ahead and get back to it. And you're going to read this next big part here.

[Alan Sisto]

All right. So Christopher begins the essay on the Istari just cited. So he's talking about what we read last week, thus tells much about Them and their origin that does not appear in the Lord of the Rings, and also contains some incidental remarks of great interest about the Valar, their continuing concern for Middle Earth and their recognition of ancient error, which cannot be discussed here. As if that's going to stop us. Right, Sean?

[Sean Marchese]

Right. No, no, we're definitely going to discuss it.

[Alan Sisto]

Thank you, Christopher, for saying that cannot be discussed here, but we're going to discuss. Do that anyway. Back to his words. Most notable are the description of the Astari as members of their own high order, the Order of the Valar, and the statements about their physical embodiment, but also to be remarked, are the coming of the Istari to Middle Earth at different times. Cirdan's perception that Gandalf was the greatest of them. Saruman's knowledge that Gandalf possessed the Red Ring and his jealousy. The view taken of Radagast that he did not remain faithful to his mission. The two other blue wizards, unnamed, who passed with Sodom and into the east, but unlike him, never returned into the Westlands. The number of the Order of the Astari said here to be unknown, though the chiefs of those that came to the north of Middle Earth were 5. The explanation of the names Gandalf and Radagast and the Sindarin word Ithron. The passage concerning the Istari in of the Rings of Power is very close indeed to the statement in Appendix B to the Lord of the Rings cited above, even in wording, but it does include this sentence agreeing with the essay on the Khurnir was the eldest and came first, and after him came Mithrandir and Radagast and others of the Istari who went into the east of Middle Earth and do not come in to these tales.

[Sean Marchese]

So, yeah, this reading is mostly Christopher's editorial comments, as you probably could hear there.

[Alan Sisto]

Everything but the very last line.

[Sean Marchese]

Everything. The last sentence. Right, yeah. And it's a look back at the essay that we covered last week, but it's interesting on its own. It's also something we probably should have taken into consideration last week.

[Alan Sisto]

And by we, he means Alan.

[Sean Marchese]

But, yeah, I'm not pointing fingers. I mean, I was here too, you know.

[Alan Sisto]

But, yeah, we didn't touch on this then, but we sure will now. Christopher's point here is that this gives us. That is to say, the essay that we covered last week gives us a lot more information on the wizards than we would have if we had just relied on the Lord of the Rings.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah. Now, I love his aside about the Valar. Remember how we mentioned how they still took counsel for the governance of the Outer Lands?

[Alan Sisto]

I remember, like, wait a minute, they don't really, do they? But then we kind of walked through it. We weren't sure what governance meant in that context because they clearly don't, you know, operate a government. It's not like you're going to go to the Hague, you know, and get to have an appointment with Manwe. Instead, we landed on this being the archaic use of the word which means control or sway. So they still were interested in who was controlling or who was swaying Middle Earth.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, yeah. And then there was this quote and this the Valar did, desiring to amend the errors of old, especially that they had attempted to guard and seclude the Eldar by their own might and glory fully revealed.

[Alan Sisto]

I love how Christopher just pointedly said, we're not going to be able to talk about this here, but of course we will. Was this the ancient error of the Valar? The fact that they had secluded the Eldar by bringing them. Oh, let's get you out of this dangerous place where they're like the ultimate helicopter parents here.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, yeah. We're going to bring you to Valinor and we're going to reveal ourselves in our full glory.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes.

[Sean Marchese]

And we saw what happened from that.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. You almost can't help. But then practically, I'm not saying they're worshiping the Valar, but you can't help but be like, ooh, we should do what these people say when they reveal themselves like that.

[Sean Marchese]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Because of their power. Right.

[Sean Marchese]

And there's probably. This is a deeper conversation than I think we have time to get into here, but, I mean, you could probably point to decisions that were made because the elves were in that place. You know, does Feanor make the Silmarils if he's not living there basking in the light of the two trees with the Valar in the full glory of all.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, he wouldn't even have the raw material because he wouldn't have the Light of the Trees.

[Sean Marchese]

Right, right. And, you know, you can see how things would have gone very differently. Like, the whole Silmarillion doesn't happen if the elves are not brought to Valinor and living among the Valar as they do. So, yeah, I do think this is the ancient era of the Valar, and I think that this is showing how. And I think we talked about this all the way back in season one. Like, this was a mistake. This wasn't. Some good came out of it. Certainly, you know, the elves are ennobled. You know, we've got the Kalaquendi, the elves who saw the light of the trees and how wise and majestic they are. And that's a great beautiful thing. But a lot of bad came out of it too. Yeah, a whole lot. And I think critically, it was not part of Iluvatar's plan.

[Alan Sisto]

Correct. I mean, I think that's the key here. And yet, just like we see with the whole concept of Spibimi shall prove it, mine instrument. The idea is that even though it wasn't part of the plan, he's still able to work with the facts on the ground, as it were, and still make good come of it.

[Sean Marchese]

Right?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, but like you said, there's a lot of evil. I mean, a lot of it. And I'm put in mind of, I think it was Mandas's words, Manwe's like, oh, you know what? This isn't so bad. Good things are going to come of this evil that has happened and it's going to be all right. He goes, yeah, but it was still evil.

[Sean Marchese]

Right, right, right.

[Alan Sisto]

That's the underlying point. And I also feel like the Valar in their, in their compensation for that error. I mean, this is, this is a really nice attempt to amend those errors. But the other attempt to amend the error is basically going, men who are men, I know nothing about men, we're not going to do anything to help men. Even though you're a thousand times more fragile, Even though you're 100 times more percept, you know, more, more persuadable and wow. Yeah, like if there's anybody who needed the help.

[Sean Marchese]

So they overcorrected.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly.

[Sean Marchese]

They way overcorrected with men. And we probably see how what happens to men as a result of this as well, the corruption of men and all the things that we read about in the Tale of Adenel and just, you know, the fall of men comes from this as well, which is not to lay everything, you know, at the feet of the Valar. It's not like it's all their fault

[Alan Sisto]

any more than we could lay all of the elves sins at the feet of the Valar, you know, I mean, Fedor still did what Feanor did. It wasn't. You can't blame it on the Valar, even if you could say he never would have done it if he wasn't there.

[Sean Marchese]

Right? Yeah, but it's a factor and it is a factor. I mean, there's probably a whole moot paper, if not a whole book in this question of like, you know, how did the Valar making this decision lead to everything that happened? Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And how much like you said, it's probably not in Iluvatar's original plan. What did that original plan have been? That's a question we can't answer today. But it's an interesting question, isn't it?

[Sean Marchese]

Right. Yeah, it is.

[Alan Sisto]

To what extent would he have wanted the Valar to engage with the children of Iluvatar? We know that the Valar loved the children.

[Sean Marchese]

All we can do is speculate. But it just seems to me like if Iluvatar had wanted them to be as involved as they became he probably would have told them more about them in the music. They would have known more about them. You know, we know that the Valar only had the faintest idea even what they were going to look like. That's why Aule's Dwarves look so much different from Elves and men. Same basic shape but bipedal.

[Alan Sisto]

And that's about it.

[Sean Marchese]

Right? Yeah. Five fingers, five toes on each hand and foot. But there's a lot of differences there. And yeah, I can't help but believe that if Iluvatar had wanted the Valar that directly involved he would have given them some idea where he was going with this. And he didn't.

[Alan Sisto]

And he might have wakened the elves a little closer to Valinor in the first place.

[Sean Marchese]

He might have. Instead of you're way over here in the west and Cuivienne is like right. You know, way in the. I guess, sort of right in the middle.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, pretty much. I mean it's.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, I guess it's not totally conclusive but it's really far from Valinor.

[Alan Sisto]

Very far. Very far indeed. I mean, only Orime found it. And he's the guy who always roams the farthest.

[Sean Marchese]

Right? Yeah, exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

Fun stuff. I mean, that's such a fun discussion to think about. You know, it is.

[Sean Marchese]

And there's no answers, obviously. But it's just so fun to think about. But yeah, I love this idea of an ancient era of the Valar. And I think it reminds us of the fundamental finiteness and limitations and flawed nature of the Valar.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. As powerful as they are, they're not omnipotent, they're not omniscient. They're not. They are very much like the little G. Greek gods and Roman gods as opposed to the Illuvitar. Big G. Omnipotent God.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, they're flawed. They have their own motivations, their own ideas. And they're not always good.

[Alan Sisto]

No, they aren't. It's true.

[Sean Marchese]

But really cool. Really cool discussion. But anyway, I guess getting back to the text, Christopher points out what he says are the most notable extra bits, starting with the fact that the Istari are of the Valar's own high order, though they're Maiar, not Valar, as we discussed last time.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[Sean Marchese]

And the footnote here says that the attentive Tolkien fans who'd read the Silmarillion four years before Unfinished Tales was published would already have known that the wizards were Maiar.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. It points us to the line in the Valaquenta, wisest of the Maiar was Oloren. Now, on its own, even with the strong hints, it would still just be a presumption. Except for one line in the Lord of the Rings when Frodo and Faramir are talking about the events of Frodo's journey. Faramir quotes Gandalf as saying, many are my names in many countries. Oloren. I was in my youth in the West. That is forgotten. So Gandalf is Oloren. Oloren is the wisest of the Maiar. Ergo, Gandalf is a Maia.

[Sean Marchese]

There you go. So it's easy enough to conclude that, but this passage confirms it, and it actually makes clear that not just Gandalf, but all the wizards are of that same order.

[Alan Sisto]

And we'll come back to that a little bit because there was a brief moment where he was thinking of somebody else being of that order. But we'll. But no spoilers yet.

[Sean Marchese]

Yep. So Christopher also points out a few other things that are worth briefly recapping here.

[Alan Sisto]

Very briefly. Yes.

[Sean Marchese]

He talks about when the Astari came to Middle Earth. At this point, there's nothing about the Blues coming early, which we'll talk about in a little bit.

[Alan Sisto]

True.

[Sean Marchese]

He mentions Ciridan's recognition of Gandalf as the greatest and the fact that Saruman knew that Gandalf was given Narya and

[Alan Sisto]

was typically centered and jealous.

[Sean Marchese]

Didn't feel like that was very.

[Alan Sisto]

But I'm the boss. I'm the best. Why didn't you give it to me?

[Sean Marchese]

Right? I'm the man of skill, don't you know?

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. I'm the ring maker. Right. I'm the guy who should have this thing. We also get, as Christopher points out, the fact that Radagast's focus on animals is what meant that he failed his mission. We do get the idea that the blues traveled east with Sonoman, but that they never came back. That certainly falls into line with the idea of them establishing the magic cults and things like that. And then, of course, he points out the word Nerdirion, Gandalf and Radagast, which we talked about earlier this episode, as well as the Sindarin word for Istar, which was interesting. Ithron, or plural Ithrin. Not a word we get anywhere else, is it?

[Sean Marchese]

Only in the name of the Blues. Right?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, exactly.

[Sean Marchese]

Now, Christopher also points out just how similar the passage is in of the Rings of Power in the Third Age, going all the way back to the Silmarillion. How similar the passages there and in Appendix B to Lord of the Rings are to one another. But he also points out one useful extra from Otrapata. I don't know when's the last time we've talked about that acronym, but it's

[Alan Sisto]

of the Rings of Power.

[Sean Marchese]

One useful extra bit from that that isn't in the Tale of Years, and that's that Saruman arrived first. And he was the oldest of the Istari.

[Alan Sisto]

I thought that was interesting, you know, that he. We know that they arrived, what, circa third age, 1000. But the idea that Saruman arrived first certainly goes along with that idea of him being the leader of the Council, you know. And that's interesting because we typically get either all four at once or Gandalf and Radagast, the Blues together behind in terms of the others. Like, so. So Saruman first, and then all four arrive after that. Or sometimes it's Gandalf and Radagast drive after that and the Blues together at some other point as well as the note about the Blues heading east. I think that's such an interesting idea about the Blues heading east and never coming back.

[Sean Marchese]

I love that so much. I mean, again, we talked about this last time, the idea that they might have gone to the east and sort of taught men some of the things they probably weren't supposed to teach them, but probably some of our magic cults. And, you know, you can imagine, like, any number of things from, like, oh, just, hey, let's turn this lead into gold, to.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah, let's see what we can do.

[Sean Marchese]

Anything from alchemy to necromancy and everything

[Alan Sisto]

in between, including probably. All right, here's a deck of cards. Pick one. All right. Shuffle it back in.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

All right.

[Sean Marchese]

Watch this. You know, that's right.

[Alan Sisto]

Presto.

[Sean Marchese]

Just imagine him walking around with, like, big pointy blue hats and just like, you know, the ancient Easterlings like coming up to them, very interested, like rabbit. Sorry. There was a visual there that people are great doing a hand motion of pulling a rabbit out of a.

[Alan Sisto]

That is brilliant. I also love the idea that in their backpacks they have like portable tables they can set up and immediately do like a shell game. Oh yeah, it's all, they're all just sleight of hand experts. They're not really wizards anyway.

[Sean Marchese]

The blues taught people a three card monty in the east until they got rich up on the, up on the corner. You know that's right. Come on, man.

[Alan Sisto]

Come on.

[Sean Marchese]

How much you want to bet on this? Come on. You're like, it's just like a whole thing.

[Alan Sisto]

I'll take your watch.

[Sean Marchese]

Right?

[Alan Sisto]

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[Sean Marchese]

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[Alan Sisto]

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[Sean Marchese]

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[Alan Sisto]

Know your sleep score With Apple Watch iPhone 11 or later required. Now. Soon we'll get back to a Valar Council meeting, but before we do, I want to take a minute to thank the incredible community that has grown up around the show over the past 10 years. Thankfully, there's a lot more talk going on at the Prancing Pony Podcast than just us.

[Sean Marchese]

That's right, the PPP really does have a warm and welcoming listener community. If you've got questions or you just want to talk about how much you love Middle Earth, be sure to check out our Common room on Facebook and across all social media platforms. On Facebook, just look for the Prancing Pony Podcast Now. Yeah, you're going to find a page, but you're also going to want to join our group to get that great fan community.

[Alan Sisto]

Now on every social media platform other than Facebook, we're just Prancingponypod. And you can also find our subreddit at R Prancingponypod. And please check out my Daily show, today's Tolkien Times on all your favorite podcast apps. That's where you can get your daily Middle Earth fix with everything from Word Nerd Wednesdays to Silmarillion Saturdays. Be sure to listen wherever you get your podcasts. Sean, let's go ahead and keep going. We've got a lot more to try to get through today, and we get some really interesting stuff here about the Valar's decision.

[Sean Marchese]

All right, and we're going to be going back to Christopher's commentary here, starting with the beginning of this passage. Most of the remaining writings about the Istadi as a group are unhappily no more than very rapid jottings, often illegible. Of major interest, however, is a brief and very hasty sketch of a narrative telling of a council of the Valar summoned, it seems, by Manwe, and maybe he called upon ERU for counsel. That's actually in quotation marks in parentheses here. So that's the apparently is a note that JRR left in the manuscript there,

[Alan Sisto]

one of the few things that is

[Sean Marchese]

legible, apparently right right back to Christopher here, at which it was resolved to send out three emissaries to Middle Earth, quoting JRR here, who would go for they must be mighty peers of Sauron, but must forego might, and clothe themselves in flesh, so as to treat on equality, and win the trust of elves and men. But this would imperil them, dimming their wisdom and knowledge, and confusing them with fears, cares, and wearinesses coming from the flesh. But two only came forward. Curumo, who was chosen by Aule, and Alatar, who was sent by Orome. Then Manwe asked where was Olorin. And Olorin, who was clad in grey and having just entered from a journey, had seated himself at the edge of the Council. Asked what Manwe would have of him. Manwe replied that he wished Oloren to go as the third messenger to Middle Earth. And it is remarked in parentheses that Oloren was a lover of the Eldar. That remained, apparently to explain Manwe's choice. But Aloran declared that he was too weak for such a task and that he feared Sauron. Then Manwe said that that was all the more reason why he should go and that he commanded Eloran. Illegible words follow that seem to contain the word third. But at that, Varda looked up and said, not as the third. And Kurumo remembered it. The note ends with the statement that Curumo, that's Saruman, took Aiwendil, that's Radagast, because Yavanna begged him, and that Alatar took Pallando as a friend.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, man, I love this passage. I mean, it's so interesting to get insight into the Council meeting of the Valar here. This is another section that is mostly Christopher's commentary and summary of additional scribblings with a few actual quotes. And the notes are all over the place. Very rapid jottings. And I'm trying to figure out, by the way now exactly how that differs from marginal jottings that featured in the chapter the Druidyne that Don and I just finished talking about a few weeks back.

[Sean Marchese]

It's like, I think that means they're two and a half times harder to read.

[Alan Sisto]

That's what I think. Very rapid. Is like, nearly illegible.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, yeah. And we're told, not surprisingly, that these jottings are often illegible. You know, I mean, Tolkien's handwriting is famously difficult in the best of circumstances. When he's writing fast, man, it is all bets are off. The thing of interest in this section, though, is a quote, very hasty sketch of this story involving a Council of the Valar. And this is such a great story.

[Alan Sisto]

It is, isn't it?

[Sean Marchese]

I really wish that this had been put somewhere, at least in some form, more final than this.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, I'm thinking of things like the Statute of Finwe and Miriel. Right.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking of here.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, Great back and forth. Wonderful dialogue. You get a lot of Insight into the Valar and their individual natures and characters. This would have been fantastic to hear them. Like, what about this guy? Oh, no, we don't. You know.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, an actual dramatic. Like a dramatic reading of his council would be really cool.

[Alan Sisto]

I love it. So Manwe is the one who summons it? Of course. I mean, he's the king. That's nice to be the king with Tolkien writing, you know? And maybe he called upon ERU for counsel. And because counsel sounds like counsel, I want to be clear that in that phrase Tolkien is saying maybe he called upon ERU for advice about the meeting.

[Sean Marchese]

Counsel, not council. Yeah, correct.

[Alan Sisto]

What do you think Edu's advice would have been, by the way? Do you think he had any insight like, you should pick this guy and this guy and avoid this guy? Because really, Saruman, bad call. Poor Ally. We'll get to that.

[Sean Marchese]

It's a good question. I mean, I'm inclined to think that whatever Manwe ended up doing is probably what Edu would have told him to do.

[Alan Sisto]

Or he just said, pick somebody.

[Sean Marchese]

Or maybe he would have just said, this is up to you.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, this is below my pay grade.

[Sean Marchese]

I'm not getting involved, man. I'm still resting up for making the planet round.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right.

[Sean Marchese]

That was rough.

[Alan Sisto]

That was really rough. Manwai, could you read your business card to me once again? King of Arda. King of Arda. Okay, okay.

[Sean Marchese]

Right. This is Arda, isn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. I'm the boss of, well, everything. But, you know, that's your problem, right?

[Sean Marchese]

Could be. No, that's a good point. And it is compelling to think that he might have said, are you sure you want the guy in white? Is that the one?

[Alan Sisto]

Is that the guy?

[Sean Marchese]

He might want to rethink this going too well, actually.

[Alan Sisto]

Just.

[Sean Marchese]

Just send the gray one. He's fine on his own.

[Alan Sisto]

He's fine.

[Sean Marchese]

He's got this covered.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right.

[Sean Marchese]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

So the council, the meeting, not the advice, concludes that the action they should take is to send three ambassadors, not five. Thou shall count to three. Three, sir. Five, sir. No, no, no. Three, sir. Yeah. Don't count to five and don't count to two. Except that thou countest to two. This continues to three.

[Sean Marchese]

Thou then proceeds to three ex.

[Alan Sisto]

And not an unnumbered bunch, which is actually what we had last week with five as the chief. Just three. Interesting.

[Sean Marchese]

That's right. Yeah. Yeah. And they ask the right question when deciding who should go. The first thing is they have to be mighty and they have to be Sauron's equal. Now, that's. You gotta imagine that's probably gonna cut down the pool of eligible candidates.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah. I mean, knowing that there are sort of tiers of strengths of Maiar. There's gotta be. You know, Sauron must have been one of the pretty strong ones. You know, maybe compared to, like, a Balrog or something like that that's not quite as strong. So you got to think finding somebody who Sauron's equal, that's gotta. That's gotta limit you right away.

[Alan Sisto]

That would. I mean, my first thought is, well, you can't get the two that I would choose which would be the ones carrying the sun and the moon. You think about how she wasn't even afraid of Melkor.

[Sean Marchese]

That's true.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, like, you're not going to mess with me. She would have been great.

[Sean Marchese]

Kind of busy, though. I mean, kind of busy that the

[Alan Sisto]

world in darkness for a millennia would be a problem. Yeah. Yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

Just to deal with the Sauron problem. I don't know if that's really. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

What about Ayanwe? I mean, the guy's the mightiest in arms in all of Arda. Like, he's. He's better with weapons than the Valar.

[Sean Marchese]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Send him.

[Sean Marchese]

That's true. But remember, they're not sent to. They're not sent to beat Sauron directly. You're not gonna send. You're not gonna send the weapons guy, you know? Yeah, this is, like, okay, Dune reference here, but, like, you're not gonna send Duncan Idaho for this. You're gonna send, like, Thufir Hawat, you know? Not the weapons guy.

[Alan Sisto]

I like that. Yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

Disregard the fact that Duke Leto did actually send Duncan Idaho to Arrakis first.

[Alan Sisto]

Forget that. Forget about that. Yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

That breaks my analogy, but that's my. You know, you don't wanna send the weapon guy. You wanna send somebody who's smart somebody who's gonna bring information and counsel and advice. You know, that's what. That's the role.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, we could switch to Bab 5. Don't send Mr. Garibaldi. Send Delenn.

[Sean Marchese]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

Right. Yeah. Okay, that makes sense.

[Alan Sisto]

I like that. Well. And of course, the idea of them being Sauron's equal already limits the pool but now even more so when you point out the job requirements. Right. This is why Aon Way can't go to give up what power they have and become incarnate. Not putting on raiments, but actually putting on flesh, becoming mortal.

[Sean Marchese]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

So that they can engage as equals with the children of Iluvatar. The text, by the way, says, as equals with elves and men, one has to presume dwarves. My first thought was maybe Ale wasn't invited to this meeting. But later we find out he was. So, like, guys, dwarves too.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah. What about dwarves, man? Yeah, that's kind of insulting.

[Alan Sisto]

It is, but.

[Sean Marchese]

But we are told that doing this is going to entail significant risk because again, as you said, Alan, it's not raiment. This is actual flesh. They are actually incarnate being in flesh. They're not going to know as much. They're not going to be as wise. I guess their fleshy brains can only just. They can only take in so much of the information that their angelic minds usually possess. This is a very.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, it's speculative, but it's. It's an interesting idea. The fact that they're limited and they have to regain that knowledge.

[Sean Marchese]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

They have to start maybe not totally from scratch, but from a lower baseline than they would have had in Valinor.

[Sean Marchese]

I kind of imagine that maybe the information was in there, but they have to sort of remember it. Right. They would have to rediscover it. And then they might have some memories that they would be able to connect

[Alan Sisto]

with, sort of unlock the memories.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But. But that's only part of it. They're also going to be afraid. They're going to be worried, they're going to be tired. They're going to. All the things that come from simply having a body in this world, they're going to have. And that automatically is going to put them at our level, which is where they need to be. But again, that's a vulnerability, that's a danger.

[Alan Sisto]

Absolutely. So, not surprisingly, only two Maiar volunteer for this position.

[Sean Marchese]

And Gandalf, they're not really lining up. They're like, yeah, so we're looking for volunteers and everybody take a step forward.

[Alan Sisto]

All of them take a step back.

[Sean Marchese]

We're put you in a mortal body, you can die.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

You're going to have three times a day. You're going to have to sleep.

[Alan Sisto]

You might get gassy.

[Sean Marchese]

Other embarrassing things are going to happen, you know.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. What's interesting is that of the two Maiar that volunteer for this, Gandalf's not one of them. Nope. Instead, just get Saruman, who sees, I think, an opportunity for more power and influence, I think. For sure. Yeah. And one of the blues, we get Alatar. This is actually the first mention of Alatar's name is in this particular part

[Sean Marchese]

of the chapter that's right. And we also get an explicit connection between each one of these two and individual valar. So, to your point, Alyn. Yes. Aule was at the meeting while they were badmouthing dwarves. Or not even talking about them, pretending to.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right.

[Sean Marchese]

We're told that Aule chose Kurumo. Yeah, that's Saruman. While Orome chose Alatar.

[Alan Sisto]

And then, in one of those really awkward office moments, Manwe.

[Sean Marchese]

Hmm?

[Alan Sisto]

Where's Alauren?

[Sean Marchese]

Isn't he supposed to be at the. Didn't we call a meeting?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. I thought we saw him on the list. He's there. He's dressed in his typical gray and having come back from a trip. What? Is he off on vacation? Where did he go, what for? And in what form? And I'll just ask you because it's funny. Did he go to Ruhn? I'm going to get you in trouble again with all that.

[Sean Marchese]

He was out in Ruhn. He met some lovely half life.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah. And they went by the name Grand Elf.

[Sean Marchese]

Grand Elf?

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, gosh. Sorry.

[Sean Marchese]

Why? Why sorry? I've just come back from a meteor trip. Sorry, boss. My meteor. My meteor just landed.

[Alan Sisto]

It was a little late. It was a meteor trip one way. I swam the rest of the way. Because obviously that could be done. I'm so sorry.

[Sean Marchese]

They're all doing it now. They're all doing it now. That's right. Okay. Oh, man. Anyway, so yeah, when the boss asks you where you are, you don't stay quiet. Aluran asks at this point what his boss would like from him.

[Alan Sisto]

Funny you should ask Aloran. I would like for you to go to Middle Earth and fight Sauron while you're mortal without the ability to use power. I'm sorry, did you call for. That's my name is Alaren. You want Lauren, he's down the hall. He's in the other office.

[Sean Marchese]

You want Alaren, the charcoal colored.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right.

[Sean Marchese]

I'm clearly not the guy you're thinking of.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. That's right.

[Sean Marchese]

Happens all the time. Our names are right next to each other in the Outlook directory.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, man. That's really unfortunate. Yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

Now, what do you make of the parenthetical statement explaining Manwe's choice? This idea that he chose him because Aloran loved the Eldar that remained. What do you think of that?

[Alan Sisto]

You know, it was funny. I didn't get. I actually misread that at first I was reading it as Aloran was a lover of the Eldar that remained. Like he loved the Elves. But he stayed. Stayed? Stayed where? But obviously what the line is saying is he loved the elves that stayed. So he loved the Vanyar, he loved the Teleri and he loved those of the Noldor that didn't go with Feanor. Which is pretty easy to do because the ones that left were kind of jerks. I mean not all of them.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, that's true.

[Alan Sisto]

As we know.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah. But yeah, I also think it could mean that he was just. He knew their culture pretty well, you know, because he spent a lot of. He loves them, he spent a lot of time around them and maybe he would be a good emissary because he knows how else.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that's kind of what I'm thinking is like. Okay, we see him as maybe really being an emissary to the elves. Like that's his primary thing. And that makes sense because the essay we read last week, he did consort with the elves, right?

[Sean Marchese]

That's right. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

So maybe that's sort of his thing.

[Sean Marchese]

I don't know.

[Alan Sisto]

I just thought it was interesting. But of course he doesn't really want the job. He's content with his current position. I don't really want the responsibilities that come with that 5% raise. You don't want me, sir? I am too weak. And I'm afraid of Sauron. Wow, that's a huge thing to say.

[Sean Marchese]

That's so cool.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, and it's intriguing like this is the guy who we know is proves to be the downfall of Sauron. I mean not. Not in a direct sense but in a behind the scenes weaving all the connections. Without him, Theoden isn't healed and the Battle of the Pelennor is lost

[Sean Marchese]

along

[Alan Sisto]

with so many other things. Right. I mean without him, Frodo doesn't leave with the Ring and two days later the Nazgul get it. And it's the end of the world, right?

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

There's so many things.

[Sean Marchese]

But it tracks with what we know of Gandalf. I mean what we see of him in the Lord of the Rings. He is afraid of Sauron.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

I mean think of the shadow of the past, you know? Think of when he is offered the Ring by Frodo and he's like no, I don't want to go anywhere near it. I don't want this.

[Alan Sisto]

I don't want that power.

[Sean Marchese]

You know who wasn't afraid of Sauron? Saruman.

[Alan Sisto]

Saruman. Yeah, and he should have been.

[Sean Marchese]

Saruman was stupidly not afraid of Sauron. He thought that he was Sauron's equal. He thought that he could be Sauron and that's what led him down the path he was led down. So I think it's actually really telling that Gandalf that is was afraid. It's. It's a. It speaks to a self awareness of his own limitations and. And I think a humility.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. I mean, and a really good call out about Saruman and his pride obviously leading him to think that he doesn't need to be afraid of Sauron. And you know, I remember, I think when we were looking at a passage about Orthanc and the realization that it was just a toy model, you know, I mean, like, compared to Barad Dur, it is a child's plaything in comparison to the actual Dark Fortress. That's really what Saruman is. Saruman is just the mini me of Sauron.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, he's playing at being Sauron. He's cosplaying Sauron.

[Alan Sisto]

He's cosplaying Sauron? Yep. Complete with, you know, making orcs and everything.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's got his little orcs that he carries around with him to the, to the convention and we don't.

[Alan Sisto]

That he carries with him to the

[Sean Marchese]

convention smashing like, you know, little, like, I don't know, little plushy Orcs on his belt or something as part of his costume.

[Alan Sisto]

That's funny.

[Sean Marchese]

But yeah, he makes a ring and yeah, he did not fear Sauron to his doom.

[Alan Sisto]

That is true. And Gandalf did. And like you said, I think that speaks to his humility and to having a proper perspective.

[Sean Marchese]

I think it also speaks to just how powerful Sauron actually is. When we see how powerful Gandalf is and you know, we love to talk about, you know, Gandalf versus the Witch King and you know, oh, Gandalf, you know, Gandalf really would have beaten the Witch King.

[Alan Sisto]

Gandalf the White, I think. I don't know about handily, but he would have beat him.

[Sean Marchese]

He would have beat him. But it would have been a closer match than Gandalf and Sauron, I think. And that's the point is that Sauron is way stronger, way more powerful.

[Alan Sisto]

And if he had gotten the ring back, there's no battle at all. Gandalf's toast if Sauron has the ring.

[Sean Marchese]

But this argument is not convincing Manwe. Well, it's convincing him.

[Alan Sisto]

It's convincing him just the wrong way.

[Sean Marchese]

Convincing him of the opposite of what Oloren's trying to do. Because Manwe's like, all right, good, then I definitely Want you to go.

[Alan Sisto]

You're afraid.

[Sean Marchese]

You think you're weak. You're afraid of him. Good. You're the person I want to do this. And I think that speaks volumes.

[Alan Sisto]

It does. It really does, because that's. Remember, his job is not to defeat Sauron, to face him one on one. His job is to inspire others, to lead others. That humility is going to give him the leadership qualities he needs to get Elves and Men together to fight Sauron.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, I think that's right. And I think that fear is going to give him the gravitas he needs to make Elves and Men understand that this is important.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

You know, but again, he's not like, okay, thanks, boss. I mean, Christopher says that Manwe commanded Allura, followed by this parenthetical about illegible words. I mean, I wonder, like, is he literally commanding Elorin, like, you're going? Or does he mean that he's commanding Elorin Be the third to go? I kind of think it's the first one. I kind of feel like it's. Oh, you're going.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, no, that's it. You're going. 100%. You are hereby commanded to go. Well, whatever the case, Varda knows what's up. She does not want Eloran ranked third of three here. And Saruman's already taking. I mean, wow, man.

[Sean Marchese]

Already it's like, oh, I'm not afraid of Sauron. I can do this. Like, he's not the guy we want.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. No. Yeah. Not the one. Not the one. Not the one.

[Sean Marchese]

Not the one.

[Alan Sisto]

So then we get the end of the note, which explains that Kurumo took Radagast at Yavanna's request. Or really, if we're reading it correctly, sort of. Her begging. Yeah, I. What now? Does Yavanna strike you as the begging type?

[Sean Marchese]

Well, I mean, no.

[Alan Sisto]

She did go to Manwe and go.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, she went to Manwe. That's what I'm thinking. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

She just seems sort of above that. But, yeah, maybe.

[Sean Marchese]

I think Yavanna is. I think she follows chain of command.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yes.

[Sean Marchese]

I think she. You know, she asks. She's one who asks permission. She doesn't. She doesn't do it and then ask for forgiveness later.

[Alan Sisto]

Unlike Aule.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, unlike Aule. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Very much ask for forgiveness, not permission. That's interesting.

[Sean Marchese]

I mean, it's an interesting question. Like, why. Why does she beg? Why does she want Radagaster? I. Wendell.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. Why does she want Radagast in the first place? Why does she want him to go with Kuruma. Why doesn't she want him as a standalone? Like, why does he have to be buddied up with this guy?

[Sean Marchese]

Actually, when you say that probably goes back to that second chapter of the Silmarillion, it's like, look, you're sending one of Aule's guys.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, that's true.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, I love him. He's my husband and everything, but I don't really trust this guy around. Birds, beasts, trees, plants, flowers.

[Alan Sisto]

Anything with a breath or life in it.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, bacteria, amoeba, anything really.

[Alan Sisto]

Even viruses at this point.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah. Can I get one of my guys to go with him and keep an eye on him? Which.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that works.

[Sean Marchese]

Actually, if that's the case. Mission failed.

[Alan Sisto]

Radagast, Seriously, why did you pick him? Oh, man.

[Sean Marchese]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

But he's not the only one who had a companion go with him. We find that Alatar actually grabbed Pallando as a friend. He's like, well, I don't want to travel alone either.

[Alan Sisto]

Like, did you ask me? Because maybe I don't want to go. I want to stay with Aloran. I don't want to go at all. But I also love how they were like, oh, we're going to send three. So we've got, you know, Gandalf, Saruman and Alatar. Oh, no, no. Now it's five. Anybody else want to go?

[Sean Marchese]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, the group is getting bigger and bigger.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah. Suddenly it's five. And then at that point you're wondering, well, why didn't Gandalf bring a friend?

[Alan Sisto]

Seriously, he didn't have any. I mean, maybe he just. I don't know.

[Sean Marchese]

Or maybe he was so scared, he's just like, I'm not going to force it.

[Alan Sisto]

Which, actually, that's what I would imagine him doing. Like, I don't want anybody to come and have to endure this. This is going to be hard.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, right? Yeah, it's really thought provoking.

[Alan Sisto]

I want to be in this meeting and I want to know more about this meeting. Like, I want to understand the decisions of the Valar here and the conversations with the individual Astari. Like Lauren actually saying. Wait, are you sure? Are you. You know, I put in a vacation request that's coming up in a couple of months. Can we. Can we reschedule?

[Sean Marchese]

I've already got meteor tickets. Yep.

[Alan Sisto]

Wow. Meteor tickets. That's terrible.

[Sean Marchese]

But back to the text. We actually are going to get a little bit more about some of these decisions in the next passage you're going to read. So why don't you pick that up

[Alan Sisto]

we are indeed, Christopher says on another page of Jottings, clearly belonging to the same period. It is said that Curumo was obliged to take Aiwendil to please Yavanna, wife of Aule. There are here also some rough tables relating the names of the Istari to the names of the Valar, Oloren to Manwe and Varda, Curumo to Aule, Iwandil to Yavanna, Alatar to Orome, and Pallando also to Orome, but this replaces Pallando to Mandos and Nienna. The meaning of these relations between Istari and Valar is clearly in the light of the brief narrative just cited, that each Istar was chosen by each Vala for his innate characteristics, perhaps even that they were members of the people of that Vala, in the same sense as is said of Sauron in the Valaquenta, that in his beginning he was of the Maiar of Aule, and he remained mighty in the lore of that people. It is thus very notable that Curumo Saruman was chosen by Aule. There is no hint of an explanation of why Ivanna's evident desire that the Astari should include in their Number One with a particular love of the things of her making could only be achieved by imposing Radagast's company on Sodom Roman while the suggestion in the essay on the Astari that in becoming enamored of the wild creatures of Middle Earth, Radegast neglected the purpose for which he was sent is perhaps not perfectly in accord with the idea of his being specially chosen by Yavanna. Moreover, both in the essay on the Astari and in of the Rings of Power, Sodomon came first and he came alone. On the other hand, it is possible to see a hint of the story of Radagast's unwelcome company in Saruman's extreme scope. Scorn for him, as related by Gandalf to the Council of Elrond. And here Christopher includes his father's text from the Lord of the Rings. Radagast the Brown, laughed Saruman, he no longer concealed his scorn. Radagast the Bird Tamer, Radagast the Simple, Radagast the Fool. Yet he had just the wit to play the part that I set him so. Then we get back to Christopher's commentary. Whereas in the essay on the Astari it is said that the two who passed into the east had no names save Ithrin Luin, the Blue Wizards, meaning of course that they had no names in the west of Middle Earth. Here they are named as Alatar and Pallando and are associated with Orome, though no hint is given of the reason for this relationship. It might be, though. This is the merest guess. And can I just say, I love it when Christopher has to guess that Orame of all the Valar had the greatest knowledge of the further parts of Middle Earth and that the Blue Wizards were destined to journey in those regions and to remain there.

[Sean Marchese]

All right, so yeah, Christopher explaining here that this particular set of jottings was clearly, he says, written around the same time.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, we've had first jottings. Yes. What about second jottings? He's just having to scramble through these notes like, oh, I got to decipher another one. Man, this is getting old.

[Sean Marchese]

Tolkien's got second jottings. He's got 11 z's. He's got them all.

[Alan Sisto]

Seriously.

[Sean Marchese]

Jottings upon jottings upon jottings. Now here we get a little bit more light shed on the inclusion of Radagast. Whether Yavanna begged or not, Saruman is said to have been obliged to take the weird brown animal guy along to please his boss's wife.

[Alan Sisto]

Like, boss, are you sure, man? I mean, that guy's weird guy. Nobody ever invites him to parties on his head.

[Sean Marchese]

What is up with that?

[Alan Sisto]

Seriously, he doesn't even talk to people. He's just an animal dude. I don't get him. No, I don't want him with me. He smells funny.

[Sean Marchese]

You know, I am going to get in trouble with this. You know, Radagast smells. Yeah, he definitely doesn't shower.

[Alan Sisto]

He doesn't shower regularly. He certainly doesn't use deodorant.

[Sean Marchese]

He hangs out with animals.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

You know, Saruman's got a good nose. You know, you stink of horse. You know.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. He would know.

[Sean Marchese]

He definitely gets somebody.

[Alan Sisto]

So frankly, given his response to her joint project with Manoe, which is the Ents, you'd think that he wouldn't have cared to insist.

[Sean Marchese]

Right?

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, Aule.

[Sean Marchese]

Like, you know, I just, just. Anyway, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's man, again, that happy couple. It's amazing that they.

[Alan Sisto]

I know that they're still together and

[Sean Marchese]

good for them, you know?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

Those crazy kids, whatever they got going on, it's good for them. But yeah, not entirely compatible.

[Alan Sisto]

And now I'm trying to think of a law firm that would serve as divorce attorneys to the Valar custody arrangements. You know, she gets the dwarves every the weekend But I don't want to.

[Sean Marchese]

She doesn't want the Dwarves, she just wants the Ents.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, then your child support goes up. Right, Right.

[Sean Marchese]

Anyway, we do get more detail about the Valar to whom each of the Astati are connected here, right?

[Alan Sisto]

That's right, we do. With Oloren being the teacher's pet here. I mean, king of the world himself and his wife, who is, you know. Remember, Varda is held in higher esteem by the Elves than any other of the Valar.

[Sean Marchese]

That's right. Yep.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

And like we saw in the previous Jottings, we know that Saruman was Aule's guy. Have to feel like he has to be a little bit disappointed by the end of Lord of the Rings, but probably also used to it by now.

[Alan Sisto]

He's kind of like, man, you know, I whiffed on Sauron. Apparently I whiffed on Saruman as well. I'm just going to stop picking people, you know.

[Sean Marchese]

Feanor.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, that's right. Feanor.

[Sean Marchese]

True.

[Alan Sisto]

I'd almost forgotten. My goodness, that's. Boy, strike three.

[Sean Marchese]

You're out.

[Alan Sisto]

You grab a seat, man.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, I know.

[Alan Sisto]

Rough day.

[Sean Marchese]

And of course we see that Radagast is aligned to Yavana, of course, as

[Alan Sisto]

we've been talking about with the Blues, interestingly being chosen by. Or the Huntsman with the aside. That one of them had actually been chosen by Mandos and Nienna, which makes me think he must have been the absolute life of the party. I mean, if Mando Sonieta chose you, you must be pretty serious and somber and crying a lot.

[Sean Marchese]

And probably also would have been the Black wizard instead of one of the Blue Wizards. Probably dressed in Goth. He's like, in Goth clothes.

[Alan Sisto]

He's got the white face, right?

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, he's. It's a different look.

[Alan Sisto]

It's a different look.

[Sean Marchese]

It's a very different aesthetic if he's aligned to Mandos and Nien.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm just picturing Morrissey as an Istar now, Folks. I think I've just killed Sean.

[Sean Marchese]

Oh, man. Wow. I can't. I just can't. Morrissey as one of the. The. The Istari.

[Alan Sisto]

Wow.

[Sean Marchese]

I love this.

[Alan Sisto]

I just.

[Sean Marchese]

I'm trying to think of which song to make a joke out of.

[Alan Sisto]

Like, there are. I'm sure, plenty. Oh, man.

[Sean Marchese]

I don't know how soon is now. When are we leaving? Like, I don't know. I got nothing for you. But it's funny to think of Morrissey's. Well, and, you know, he'll probably just cancel. Like Morrissey does every concert now. Actually, that's the joke I should go with. That's the joke I should go with. Cirdan is like, you know, Alatar, Wasn't there supposed to be another one? It's like, yeah, Pallando can't make it. Don't worry, you'll get your money back. But he's not going to make this one. Sorry. Buy tickets again next time he comes through.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right, Morrissey.

[Sean Marchese]

This is why I have. I mean, there's lots of reasons why I don't buy Morrissey tickets anymore, but I was a pretty big Smiths fan once upon a time. Yeah, but, man, I just can't. I can't deal with the disappointment of just knowing I'm gonna buy tickets to see.

[Alan Sisto]

It's like a 50, 50 shot at best.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, right. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, man.

[Sean Marchese]

Anyway, that's crazy.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, and now, of course, I have to think of other 80s artists to fill the slots of the other Forestari. But we'll come to that. I'll put that in the back of my head and I'll let that bake. But in the meantime. In the meantime, though they were actually chosen by Orame, Polando was not chosen by Mendos Indiana, perhaps because Tolkien had the foresight to realize that Morrissey would make a really awful Istar.

[Sean Marchese]

But that's exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

That's exactly why. But Orame. Why would Orame choose it all? And why would he choose two? Like, I only got to choose one. Yavana got to choose one. Manwe and Varda combined get to choose one. Orime gets to choose two.

[Sean Marchese]

That is interesting, isn't it? I mean, why is that? Is it because he's got more knowledge of the wider world and he figures

[Alan Sisto]

like, you know, as the Huntsman? Yeah, maybe.

[Sean Marchese]

Yes. And certainly Christopher thinks Louis Viennin. Yeah. Yeah. But this is interesting, though, that this is the first time we see Polando's name, isn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, it is. We only just saw Alatar's name, but this is the first time we see True.

[Sean Marchese]

And Christopher explains that the thought behind his father charting these connections in the rough tables referenced was to show that each of the estadi was selected for his innate characteristics, which is not a compliment for Aule.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, Aule's like, no, I just rolled some dice. I just. I picked randomly. I did a random number generator in Excel and said, oh, it looks like

[Sean Marchese]

it's you Ale picked this guy. And it's like, oh, not good, not good. But further, he speculates that Tolkien saw each of these astari as members of the people of these Valar. So remember, we talk about the fact that each Vala had their people, the Maiar that served them, that were part of their group, part of their house, that sort of.

[Alan Sisto]

That did what they did, that, you know, followed their footsteps. You know, like Aule's Maiar would be crafting craftsman.

[Sean Marchese]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

I don't know what that says about Nienna's Maiar. There's a whole lot of Kleenex being used when they have their meetings, probably.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, that's a good point. I mean, you know, they could be. They're very sympathetic, though, you know. They are. That's true.

[Alan Sisto]

They're very kind. Yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, I know I make fun of her a little bit, but she's pretty awesome, let's be honest.

[Sean Marchese]

She's pretty awesome. She really is pretty awesome. I, again, I still. My headcanon still wants to make her both the Nienna we see in the Silmarillion and the older Goth Nienna from the old tales, in which I could imagine, you know, her handmaidens helping her do her makeup or something, you know, like helping her get the bat wings just right on her eyes or something. But

[Alan Sisto]

so, of course, the idea of the people, remember that sends us back to Valaquinta, as Christopher tells us us. He reminds us about Sauron being in the beginning of the Maiar of Aule. I love the way he does this, by the way, without additional comment, it is very notable that Saruman was selected by a. But then he doesn't go on to note that. He just says it's notable.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, that's euphemism of the year right there.

[Alan Sisto]

Like, isn't it? That's so sweet.

[Sean Marchese]

Just got to remind you that these two were both part of the same fraternity.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, I do love that sort of understatement. It's very notable. Anyway, moving on, which is what he does.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, I mean, I do kind of wish he would have, like, dove into it a little bit, but I guess he just doesn't want to speculate that much about what his father's saying about this. But it seems pretty clear to me what his father's saying about, you know, the corruptibility of being one of Aule's followers. I mean, again, we were just talking about this. You got Sauron, Saruman, Feanor are all really met with bad ends through corruption and through making bad decisions.

[Alan Sisto]

And a lot of it, I think, is connected to craft, to making, to the temptation that leads to in terms of seeking power. Through what you make. Yes, because that's what happened with all three of them with Feanor, Saruman and Sauron. And it was almost what happened with Aule himself with the Dwarves. I mean, it didn't. Because he had the right heart. But it's just wild how that sub creation act is itself almost dangerous.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, I think that's exactly what Tolkien is saying about that. And I think you're right. It is about that temptation and that power and that embracing of the machine technology, technical skill. We do get a bit on Radagast here at the end of these jottings.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

First that there's no reason given for Radagast to have been imposed on Saruman.

[Alan Sisto]

I love Christopher's word choice on that, by the way. He does make a good point. Like we started to speculate on, but didn't go too far into, like, why couldn't he have just gone on his own? Why does he have to be paired with Saruman?

[Sean Marchese]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

If they were going to just send three, why did Radagast and Pallando even go? But if they did go, why didn't it just become five? Or maybe it's because they were only going to send three and so they had to go under the authority of somebody else. Like Pallando had to go under Alatar or he couldn't go. Radagast had to go under Saruman or he couldn't go. But that. I don't know, it's just odd.

[Sean Marchese]

Maybe they only had three chartered meteors and they had to.

[Alan Sisto]

They have room for two in each, but only if you're on one ticket.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, right, exactly. Also, Christopher points out that Radagast's failure, you know this. Becoming obsessed with like nature documentaries. Like, you know, just like, he just. He's in love with the natural, natural world. So much so that he forgets his mission, basically.

[Alan Sisto]

He forgets his mission and morphs into Sir David Attenborough.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, pretty much.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, he's old enough.

[Sean Marchese]

I mean, I would love to watch a Radagast narrated nature.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, I would too.

[Sean Marchese]

I think he would do some amazing ones. I mean, he would know everything about what's going on.

[Alan Sisto]

He would know the individual names of the Clitters.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, he would probably be able to interview the.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I mean, like, you know that video where the groundhog says Alan? Alan. Radagast actually knows that. Alan. It's not me.

[Sean Marchese]

Right, right. No, he knows the Allen that that groundhog is talking to. And I wonder if that groundhog's Name is Sean.

[Alan Sisto]

I like that. That is now my head canon. All right. I love it.

[Sean Marchese]

That's great. Oh, man. But yeah, Christopher points out that, you know, the fact that Radagast fails this way, that he says it might not be perfectly in accord with the idea of his being specially chosen. And again, it just reminds me of again, what is Aule thinking when Saruman crashes and burns as spectacularly as he does? And what would Yavonna think if she had specially chosen Radagast for this? And then he just kind of. He gets distracted and kind of goes off and does his own thing.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

You know, I don't know. What do you make of that?

[Alan Sisto]

I don't know.

[Sean Marchese]

I mean, maybe what it tells us is that this really was a very difficult job. There's so many things that could go wrong, you know, I mean, let's think about what was Saruman's failure. He got so obsessed with kind of making his own thing. Like, he wanted to make a ring, he wanted to build armies. He got so obsessed with the idea of he failed.

[Alan Sisto]

He studied the enemy so long that he became the enemy, you know?

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, but it was a very owleyish way. Like, his downfall was very owleyish. Maybe that's the same thing with Radagast. His downfall was very Yavanna Ish. Was Yavanna Ish. He fell in love. He was so in love with the natural world, with birds and beasts and plants, that he spent all of his time with them. Instead of doing what he was supposed to do. He kind of got destroyed to.

[Alan Sisto]

To his detriment and to the failure of his mission, which. Which reflects a little bit on Yavana and her weakness. Right. I mean, yeah. I'm thinking back to chapter two in the end where, you know, she goes to Manue and says, hey, help me out, man. Right. You know, my husband has just made the dwarves. Can you do something that will help the trees? You know, you know, the animals can run, but the trees can't do that. So we need some help. Okay, we make the ends. She comes back and. And she's only thinking of her creation. Because remember, Allay has to say, they're still going to need wood. They're still going to need these natural resources that the natural world has been created to provide for the children of Iluvatar. We get back to the whole idea of the children as stewards of Arda and not of just users of the resource. But the resources are there for them. They just need to be stewards of them. And Yavanna just is so tied up in the resources she doesn't think about. About the fact that the children of Iluvatar are going to need these trees to build their homes and they're going to need the animals for their hides to make armor or to make clothing. Yeah, it's interesting. You're right. It's a weakness.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah. It occurs to me that Yavanna also loves the things she's created too much. We associate this with Aule and his followers and don't love too much the work of thy hands and all that stuff. We tend to think of that in the context of people who've sub created things, great artworks and works of skill and devices and all these things that we associate with Aule. But that's Yavanna's weakness too. She loves her creations too much. So much so that she doesn't want any harm to come to them. It's like the overprotective parent who doesn't want her child to experience any adversity in their life.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

And maybe that is. Maybe Tolkien's telling us something there, that all of the Valar have a similar weakness and that they have a slightly

[Alan Sisto]

myopic view that is limited to the areas of their strength, the areas of

[Sean Marchese]

their nature, things that they created, the things that they love. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Which is a challenge because they're also a reflection of that part of the mind of Iluvatar. Like that's just who they are. It feels in a way a little unfair to criticize them for loving the things that they're sort of tasked with. Like only Manwe, and even he is specifically of the winds, and that's why he makes the Eagles. But only he's the one who's sort of in charge of all of the things. Every other one of them have their own realms, so to speak. And that was part of their nature and their creation. But then we get into the whole idea of, well, didn't Iluvatar make Melkor that way? Well, no, we did. Right. Melkor. They all have free will. So, you know, it's.

[Sean Marchese]

But they're finite beings, and it's the fact that they're finite beings from a specific beings, part of Iluvatar's self.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

And so I think Myopia, you said it's a myopic view. I think that's a really good analogy because it is about only seeing the things that you care about. Manwe, the one who is literally the farthest sighted of all of them, is able to See?

[Alan Sisto]

Everything that makes sense. So, still not done with Radagast. Christopher points out the extreme scorn in which Saruman held Radagast. What a phrase that is. Though let's face it. Saruman had extreme scorn for anybody not Saruman.

[Sean Marchese]

This is true. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And as evidence, he points back to Gandalf's retelling of that account of the Council of Elrond, which is hilarious. But I've got a question for you. If Radagast happened to be at this Council, do you think Gandalf would have toned down the report port?

[Sean Marchese]

Oh, definitely, yeah. I mean, I want to pretend enough tact not to give the whole thing.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I mean, I could see him saying, well, and Simon had some bad things to say about. About our friend Radagast here. But, you know, at the end of the day, he tricked him and, you know. Yeah, I don't think he. I don't think he says Radagast bad things.

[Sean Marchese]

I will not utter them here.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. But I am about to speak.

[Sean Marchese]

They don't need to be repeated.

[Alan Sisto]

But I'll use the Black Speecher. Yeah,

[Sean Marchese]

that I'll say. That's fine. Finally, we move on to the Blues. And Christopher reminds us that here, the Blues, formerly known only as the Ithrin Luin, the Blue Wizards, they get names. And we've been talking about those names and we find out that they're connected

[Alan Sisto]

with Orome, which leads us to where we were before. I don't know if we have really any answers to this, but why Orame, right? I mean, your guess is as good as ours, folks. Or Christopher's for that matter. He speculates. And I love it when he does this. He thinks that maybe, like we said, maybe it's just because Orome, being the Huntsman, has knowledge of these far parts of Middle Earth. So I don't think it's a stretch to kind of think that that might be a reason. It's just odd that he got to choose two.

[Sean Marchese]

That is very strange. I don't. I can't make anything of that. I really kind of like the idea that Pallando is the Goth.

[Alan Sisto]

Boy.

[Sean Marchese]

There you go.

[Alan Sisto]

It's almost like the two of them just are a unit. Like, you can't choose Alatar without Pallando. You can't choose Pallando without Alatar. So that's why Orome chose them both. Because really, Orome just chose Alatar, but Alatar chose Pallando. Because when you choose Alatar, you choose Pallando.

[Sean Marchese]

Right. Yeah. Maybe they're just really good friends, you know, or you know, or more. Who knows? I mean, maybe they were just. Maybe they were like life companions and maybe they just wanted to go together. I don't know.

[Alan Sisto]

Maybe. You never know. All right, so we skipped reading a paragraph here, and it just explains that Christopher can't say whether these jottings predated or postdated the essay on the Astari that we read last week, although both certainly date to a time after Tolkien finished Lord of the Rings.

[Sean Marchese]

That's right. And in a very long footnote to this, Christopher References Letter number 180 in which Tolkien writes, there is hardly any reference in the Lord of the Rings to things that do not actually exist on its own plane of secondary or sub creational reality that is to say, have been written.

[Alan Sisto]

And we sure know this, right? I mean, it's why Christopher could assemble 12 long books about Tolkien's writings long after his death. But there is a footnote to this letter that is relevant here. Tolkien explaining in the footnote that the only things that don't actually exist that he didn't actually write are very few. And they are essentially two things, he says. The cats of Queen Beruthiel and the names and adventures of the other two wizards, five minus Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast are all that I recollect. Those are the only things he could remember that he didn't like write about the Blue Wizards and Queen Beruthiel.

[Sean Marchese]

Now the rest of this footnote goes into great length on the story of Beruthiel, and while that is fascinating on its own, it's not really connected to the Astari. And we already ran long last episode, so tune in to the Mega Postscript for this chapter if you want to get some more detail there. Right now, get up to 15% off

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into the world of Elle woods in high school.

[Alan Sisto]

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[Sean Marchese]

Now we told you about the amazing PPP community after our earlier break. If you're a part of that community and you want to enjoy something even more special, come join the Fellowship of the podcast on Patreon. You get to be in the best discord community around, one that includes host hangouts and even live episode recordings.

[Alan Sisto]

And your support there is what enables me to work full time doing all the shows the ppp, Today's Tolkien Times, the Rings of Power Wrap up, and my streaming show the PPP plays. And when you join, you can also get things like Episode postscripts, ad free episodes, free merch, and more.

[Sean Marchese]

And you can join our questions after Nightfall episodes or even appear as a guest in the northwest. Go to patreon.com prancingponypod to show your support and join the Fellowship of the Podcast.

[Alan Sisto]

And don't forget to rate and review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And please recommend us to your friends, something you can do directly on Spotify now. Just share the show with them. All right, Sean, tell us about Legolas the Underachiever. I mean, I know it's just a passing line, but it kills me every time.

[Sean Marchese]

All right. Yep. All right. We must assume that they were all Maiar, that is Persons of the Angelic Order, though not necessarily of the same rank. The Maiar were spirits, but capable of self incarnation, and could take humane, especially elvish forms. Saruman is said, for example, by Gandalf himself, to have been the chief of the Istari, that is higher in Valinorian stature than the others. Gandalf was evidently the next Inordian order. Radagast is presented as a person of much less power and wisdom of the other two. Nothing is said in published work save the reference to the five wizards in the altercation between Gandalf and Saruman. Now, these Maiar were sent by the Valar at a crucial moment in the history of Middle Earth to enhance the resistance of the Elves of the west, waning in power, and of the uncorrupted men of the west, greatly outnumbered by those of the east and South South. It may be seen that they were free each to do what they could in this mission, that they were not commanded or supposed to act together as a small central body of power and wisdom, and that each had different powers and inclinations and were chosen by the Valar. With this in mind, Christopher then moves on to a different Other writings are concerned exclusively with Gandalf, Olorin, Mithrandir. On the reverse of the isolated page containing the narrative of the choice of the Istari by the Valar appears the following very remarkable note. Now we're going back to JRR Tolkien's words. Here he says Elendil and Gil Galad were partners, but this was the last alliance of Elves and men. In Sauron's final overthrow. Elves were not effectively concerned at the point of action. Legolas probably achieved least of the nine Walkers. Galadriel, the greatest of the Eldar surviving in Middle Earth, was potent mainly in wisdom and goodness as a director or counselor in the struggle, unconquerable in resistance, especially in mind and spirit, but incapable of punitive action in her scale, she had become like Manwe with regard to the greater total action Manwe. However, even after the downfall of Numenor and the breaking of the Old World, even in the Third Age, when the Blessed Realm had been removed from the circles of the world, was still not a mere observer. It is clearly from Valinor that the emissaries came who were called the Istari, or wizards, and among them Gandalf, who proved to be the director and coordinator both of Attack and Defense.

[Alan Sisto]

I love this. There's a lot going on here, a couple of really big, different sections. I almost broke the standard of two readings, but then they would have been too short. So we did skip an introductory paragraph explaining that what we just read here in this section comes from some very rough notes. Some. I know this is going to come as a surprise to all of you. Completely unreadable.

[Sean Marchese]

No, no way. I know.

[Alan Sisto]

Really? Didn't he type all his notes? And the likely date? Christopher says from 1972. So these are very late notes, very

[Sean Marchese]

late in his life. And then we move into those very rough notes and we learn that Tolkien writes something that, well, we've long known and talked about, which is that the Istadi were all Maiar, though perhaps of different rank from one another.

[Alan Sisto]

But it was interesting because the text you read began by saying we must assume. Which sort of sounds like it's picking up in the middle of something. Well, we get more light on that if we go to chapter 13 in the Peoples of Middle Earth. It's called Last Writings. And we look for the section called the Five Wizards. And there we learned that this question actually arose, this idea of who the Astari are, from Tolkien's long look at Glorfindel.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah. And in fact, the opening words of this brief discussion are simply, was in fact Glorfindel one of them? Which means that in some. Yeah. At some point, Tolkien was considering whether or not to elevate Glorfindel to the

[Alan Sisto]

status of Istar, even though he was an elf. There was no question that they weren't going to change Glorfindil to a Maia, but they were going to make him an Istar.

[Sean Marchese]

Make the Istari, not just Maiar, make the Maiar and. And very powerful elf.

[Alan Sisto]

At least that's a very interesting concept, and I can't say I fully disagree. Certainly Glorfindel would have made a great Istar, but he's also another one of these who, you know, like Aeonwe, might be better fitted to another role. Yeah, you know.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah. Because, again, he was. He was a fighter. He was. He was most known for, you know, the battle against the Balrog.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly.

[Sean Marchese]

The Fall of Gondor.

[Alan Sisto]

Which is why Christopher points out that Glorfindel quote was evidently never supposed to be, that is, be one of the Istar when Lord of the Rings was written, adding that his father said there is no possibility that some of them were Eldar of the highest order of power rather than Maiar. So he played with the idea, but then concluded, nope, nope, they all have to be Maiar.

[Sean Marchese]

That's right. And it's that passage in the Five Wizards that leads directly into. We must assume that they were all Maiar. So that's a response to that. Now, I do want to make one quick note about Tolkien's use of angelic to describe these Maiar, the Greek word Angelos, which is the origin of our word angel. That's a Greek word, but it doesn't mean angel the way we think of it. It actually means messenger. And it's through the idea of an angel and Angelos being a messenger of God in Christian tradition, that sort of led to the idea of angels. But it's interesting that Tolkien uses the word Angelos twice to refer to Gandalf in letters. There's in letter 156 to Robert Murray and then letter 181 to Michael, straight. So I think he's very intentional, using words like messenger and angelic to describe these. And I think that he's kind of reminding us of the fact that they are emissaries. They are sent by the Valar, the little G God. And I think, again, I think he's kind of playing with this idea of them being messengers. They're here to deliver a message, you know, a message of hope, a message of defiance. But not again. We keep beating this point into the ground, but not to fight themselves.

[Alan Sisto]

Right. Not of overpower, you know, of strength that defeats Sauron. I also thought, if I'm not mistaken, in one of those, he actually even writes Angelos in Greek.

[Sean Marchese]

In Greek, yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Letters. You know, like, I mean, he's. He's going back to the original Greek for the word. I also wonder if this is another example of Tolkien sort of trying to reclaim a word from its popular myth. Like, I'm going to use this word angel here, and I know you might think of a dude in robes with a halo, holding a harp and floating on a cloud. No, no, no, no, no. I don't mean that any more than I mean the small little ceramic dude in your lawn. When I say gnome, you know, that's

[Sean Marchese]

a really good connection. Yeah. Really good analogy.

[Alan Sisto]

I feel like he just.

[Sean Marchese]

He.

[Alan Sisto]

He really does often try to reclaim words from popular myth, like fairy. From the gnome.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah. From the meanings they've taken on over time. Their original. Yeah. And I think that's really intentional here.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I think so, too.

[Sean Marchese]

I bet you're right.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. So then we get some more restatements, Right. Saruman's the boss. Apparently higher in Valinorian stature. And I kind of wonder what that means also, this idea of ranks in the first place. But, I mean, I guess they're just quantifying the fact that I think those

[Sean Marchese]

mean the same thing. I think, you know, Valinorian statuary is probably referring to some sort of rank or hierarchy that exists there that we don't really.

[Alan Sisto]

But it's interesting that there's a hierarchy. Like, what are the characteristics? What are the traits? How do you define. You know, I mean, even in our world, it's sort of subjective, you know, I mean, you would put certain people at a higher rank based on. Based on what? Based on popularity, based on athletic skill, based on good looks, based on wealth. What do you. How do you categorize people? Well, how would the Valar categorize the Maiar? Like what?

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

What's the Stature, and it must be skill is the only thing I can think of because it's certainly not character or Lauren would have been higher stature than maybe power.

[Sean Marchese]

You know, maybe just raw ability.

[Alan Sisto]

Raw power.

[Sean Marchese]

Raw power. Sub creative ability. I don't know know.

[Alan Sisto]

That would explain why Feanor was the greatest of all the Eldar. Right?

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Or is it how he's described that way? Because he's certainly not the greatest in terms of moral behavior. He's just.

[Sean Marchese]

Or the same thing with Melkor. I mean, Melkor was, you know, the mightiest of all are. But he's. He certainly was not, you know, the best, the wisest, the friendliest, you know.

[Alan Sisto]

No, the friendliest.

[Sean Marchese]

Strength we're talking about. We're talking about pure strength.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that makes sense. So while Gandalf is apparently right behind Saruman in the ranks of Valinor. Are. And now I'm actually picturing them like Boy Scout badges. So Saruman's clearly an Eagle Scout. You know, for sure he didn't want to get that helpy old Woman across the road badge. But he did. Because he wanted to be better than everybody else.

[Sean Marchese]

Right? Exactly. Yeah. He just did it to spite everybody else in his troop.

[Alan Sisto]

Radagast is still in the Cub Scouts. I think he's a. He's a person of much less power and wisdom. He's described. And I'm right here. A person of much less power and wisdom.

[Sean Marchese]

Shut up.

[Alan Sisto]

Up. That was brutal.

[Sean Marchese]

Radagast has all the animal husbandry badges and the, you know, the. You're right, he does agriculture badges. He's growing stuff. Well, he's. Yeah, he's growing something.

[Alan Sisto]

This is episode 420, so.

[Sean Marchese]

Right. That's. Wow. Could have done that if you meant to.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, I couldn't have.

[Sean Marchese]

But. Yeah, but there's nothing about the blues.

[Alan Sisto]

No.

[Sean Marchese]

Beyond a reference to the defeated Saruman's outburst about the rods of the five wizards. Which was kind of an interesting textual ruin in Lord of the Rings until you learn more here. But that talk of the blues actually brings us back to the five wizards in last writings. Because there are two notes in that text that we need to take a look at specifically about the blue wizards.

[Alan Sisto]

That's absolutely right. The first one says this. No names are recorded for the two wizards. They were never seen or known in lands west of Mordor. The wizards did not come at the same time. Possibly Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast did. But more likely. And here we come back to something that we've seen through a couple of the other sources, Saruman the chief, and already overmindful of this came first and alone. Probably Gandalf and Radagast came together, though this has not yet been said. Said what is most probable, Glorfindel also met Gandalf at the Havens. The other two are only known to exist by Saruman, Gandalf and Radagast. And Saruman, in His wrath, mentioning 5, was letting out a piece of private information. Or as Dr. Brett Devereux observed in our recent interview, Saruman's OPSEC is pretty poor.

[Sean Marchese]

Oh yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Love that.

[Sean Marchese]

He's a dummy mummy who can't keep his mouth shut. Right?

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. That's right. Oh, man. So if I'm going to lie to the Witch King and the Nazgul I should be thinking is there one of my people in the vicinity still out and about who might be captured and speak contrary? I mean, I don't know. Wormtongue's on his way back from Rohan. Maybe I shouldn't say anything.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, yeah, way.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

He's just not smart. He's a dummy Wummy. But there is a second note here, and it's one that Christopher says is rougher and more difficult.

[Alan Sisto]

Wow, that's a lot.

[Sean Marchese]

I know it's a high bar. But it's this one that gives us those other couple of names that we talked about from. Well, two of the. Of the other names for the Blues that we talked about from this point book. Yeah, there. We're told that the other two, this is the Blues came much earlier at the same time probably as Glorfindel when matters became very dangerous in the Second Age, Glorfindel was set to aid Elrond and was, though not yet said, preeminent in the war in Eriador. But the other two Istari were sent for a different purpose. Mori, Nektar and Hrom Estamo Darkness Slayer and East Help. Their task was to circumvent Sauron to bring help to the few tribes of men that had rebelled from Melkor worship to stir up rebellion and after his first fall to search out his hiding in which they failed and to cause hard to read, but probably dissension and disarray among the Dark East. They must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarraying the forces of east who would both in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have outnumbered the West.

[Alan Sisto]

That is fascinating. What a crazy backstory to give the Blues. First of all, the reminder that Glorfindel was sent earlier and obviously was key in that battle. Right. I mean, we know that. That he was the one who had the prophecy about, not by the hand of man shall he FL. Fall.

[Sean Marchese]

That's right. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

But, wow, the Blue Wizards showed up

[Sean Marchese]

earlier and that they possibly actually did some good out there. They went out there and they swayed men away from Melkor worship and they sewed dissension, they sowed rebellion against Melkor worship. And probably, if we're going to take this as what happened, they probably reduced the overall population of men who would eventually flock to Sauron in the Third,

[Alan Sisto]

which in essence really saved the west altogether because otherwise it would have been outnumbered vastly. I'm thinking of when the Balhao arrived and wiped out on Deher and his sons in, I don't remember what, 1944, I think that might have been. I think it was around the same time as Arved. We pressed his claim and they were outnumbered vastly. And imagining that sort of force, a force large enough to send, you know, armies around Mordor from the north and from the South.

[Sean Marchese]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

To have that happen in the late Third Age, Gondor would have been facing an existential crisis.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

But the idea of the Blues showing up early does sort of. I know I'm not trying to get you in trouble, but it does sort of come to this Rings of Power idea of the Wizards. It's like, well, I was okay with them being the Blues if they'd been to Blues instead of obviously Gandalf and Saruman.

[Sean Marchese]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

It's interesting.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, it does. There is a textual, you know, textual support for that idea if it's the Blues. And I think it would have made sense for it to be them. Of course they wouldn't do that because people. The average person has no idea who the Blue Wizards are.

[Alan Sisto]

Alatar and Pallando, or worse, Mornectar and Romastamo. I mean, they're definitely not going to know those names.

[Sean Marchese]

Right. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Anyway.

[Sean Marchese]

But it's fascinating especially to think that they might have actually accomplished part of what their mission was meant to be, as opposed to just. Just going out there and, you know, doing card tricks and teaching people to raise the dead.

[Alan Sisto]

Three Card Monty. Yeah, I love that. So finally, Christopher says that his father wrote a note made on their names and functions. Seems now lost. But except for the names, their general history and effect on the history of the Third Age is clear. Christopher suspects that Tolkien was thinking of that narrative that we talked about earlier, the one with the Council of the Valar at that time, their names would have been Alatar and Pallando, not more Nekhtar and Robostamo. But that long sidebar on the Blues concluded, and again, thanks to the peoples of Middle Earth, we come back to the sending of the Istari by the valar in this 1972 note.

[Sean Marchese]

Yes, and we get Tolkien explaining here that the Astari were sent at a really important time in Middle Earth history, and they were sent specifically to enhance the resistance of the. Because, get this, they were waning in power. The Elves didn't have the power they used to. This is not the Elves of the Silmarillion who are able to go knock on Morgoth's door and challenge him to single combat.

[Alan Sisto]

That's true.

[Sean Marchese]

These are a fading people.

[Alan Sisto]

They are. They're a smaller people, certainly. I mean, their numbers are nowhere near what they were in the First Age, and their martial strength isn't what they were, as we'll get to a little bit with even Galad Israel. But they were also there not just to enhance the resistance of the Elves, but to strengthen the, quote, uncorrupted men of the west, because they're outnumbered. That's why the Blues might have been set in the Second Age. Outnumbered by the Easterlings, the Wainriders, the Balchoth, the Men of the south, the Haradrim, the Southerns, the very Ags of Khand, and all of those. So, yeah, I'm not sure I'd call all the men of the west uncorrupted. It's a nice generality, but no, certainly not.

[Sean Marchese]

But yeah. Now we also get this really cool explanation that the wizards are all basically free agents. You know, they're not ordered. They're not even expected really to work together or to act as a team. That's kind of cool.

[Alan Sisto]

It is cool. I mean, Alatar and Pallando probably didn't pay much attention to that, but.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, probably not. No, because they're bros, you know, but it does kind of show you maybe why the White Council kind of, I don't want to say, fell apart because, you know, there's Gandalf and Galadriel and Elrond still doing a lot. But, like, the wizards being on the White Council, you know, they kind of drifted apart over time. Maybe because they weren't really meant to work together. You know, they weren't really expected to.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that's a fair point.

[Sean Marchese]

They found Maiar, who had differences and abilities and interests that they needed for different jobs, different missions, not, like the ability to work Together was not something that was. That they were chosen for, you know. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And they were like, you know what? I don't think they're going to work all that well together. So we're not going to even expect them to.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

They can do this on their own. And that's the thing. I mean, it's also a matter of just simply not putting all your eggs in one basket. Like, move them apart regionally. You know, Let them do different things in different regions for different peoples. Because we're going to need the Elves and the men. No, we don't need the rabbits. Thank you, Radagast, but, you know, thanks for trying.

[Sean Marchese]

Or the new strain of pipe weed that you've just bred.

[Alan Sisto]

Like, this is really good. That's. That's right. That's right. Though if we could get Sauron to accidentally imbibe some of that, it might just chill him out.

[Sean Marchese]

So it might slow his mind.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, it might.

[Sean Marchese]

We could use that.

[Alan Sisto]

That's true. So we return to Christopher for the end of this reading as he shifts gears, explaining that most of the rest of the writings are all about Gandalf. And indeed, next week's episode will certainly be all about our favorite wizard.

[Sean Marchese]

Now, that said, we do get one more very remarkable note, which is written on the back of the same piece of paper that had this narrative about Valar's choice of each of the Istari. So let's look at that note first. We are reminded of the alliance of Elendil and Gil Galad and how that last alliance successfully brought Sauron's reign to an end at the end of the Second Age.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. And then calling back to the arrival of the Istari to strengthen the Elves resistance again because they're waning. We are told quite bluntly, that in the Third Age, the Elves, and this is Diplo speech, were not effectively concerned at the point of action. They were not effectively concerned at the point of action. They were sitting on their butts is what they were doing. Their butts.

[Sean Marchese]

They had. Yeah, exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

And I love it because Legolas specifically gets called out as the one who probably achieved least of the Nine Walkers.

[Sean Marchese]

That's hilarious. I mean, I feel bad for Legolas, but it is kind of true.

[Alan Sisto]

It is kind of true. Have you ever seen those clips of, like, the Fellowship of the Ring, except it's all of Legolas dialogue with Frodo and it's the end. He never talks to him.

[Sean Marchese]

He doesn't talk to Frodo. And it's true. He has kind of the least arc of any of the characters. He accomplishes the least for his people of any of the characters. So, yeah, it does make sense.

[Alan Sisto]

That's true. I mean, he does do some things. I mean, he slays, of course, the steed, the flying steed that the Nazgul is on, on the other side of the river, but that's about it. Yeah, that's really it, you know, because he does not go skating down the stairs on a shield. He does not do that.

[Sean Marchese]

No, that's true. And he doesn't. He doesn't single handedly take down an entire mumach and every person on it.

[Alan Sisto]

Sadly, no, he does not.

[Sean Marchese]

Parkour and awesomeness.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, and prettiness.

[Sean Marchese]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, the pretty boy El.

[Sean Marchese]

But you know, it's not Legolas being singled out here, you know, even Galadriel herself, who's described as the greatest of the Eldar, still in Middle Earth, we're told she was only strong in her wisdom and goodness. She's unconquerable in resistance, but incapable of punitive action.

[Alan Sisto]

So much for nuclear Galadriel. I mean, she's not just.

[Sean Marchese]

Not what? That's not her role?

[Alan Sisto]

No, that is not her role. It's not her role. And it's not, it, it's not the role of the elves at all, it seems, you know, they're, they're fading, they are waning, as this says. And so they are sort of sitting back on their, on their haunches. They're not effectively concerned at the point of action. Right, I love that line. And I think the next time my son is spending like all Saturday afternoon playing video games that are doing his chores, son. And I am worried you are not effectively concerned at the point of action.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, I wonder if that's how JRR told Christopher, you know, that he was worried he wasn't cleaning his.

[Alan Sisto]

They're not effectively concerned at the point of action. I love it. In fact, Tolkien here concludes his assessment of Galadriel rather harshly. She'd become. He doesn't write the word aloof, but really that's what I read when he says she had become like Manwe with regard as this whole problem. Not my circus, not my monkeys.

[Sean Marchese]

That's what Galadriel is wearing my hands of it. That's right.

[Alan Sisto]

She's got the T shirt on. Not my circus, not my monkeys. But what's really funny here is like, okay, Galadriel is a lot like Manwe in that she is now aloof and doesn't care. Oh, but by the way, Even Manwe is better than Galadriel because he is actually more involved, because he's not just a mere observer. It's anymore. Even after the downfall of Numenor. I mean, the text makes it clear there is a comparison. He says specifically Manwe, however, even after the downfall, was still not a mere observer, with the implication that Galadriel is.

[Sean Marchese]

That Galadriel is. Yeah. Which I think is a little unfair.

[Alan Sisto]

It is a little unfair.

[Sean Marchese]

She does a little more than observe. She suckers the Fellowship.

[Alan Sisto]

Even earlier, she sort of protected the Eotheod during their trip down to save Gondor.

[Sean Marchese]

She does stuff. But, I mean, this is Tolkien's own words. I mean, you don't get a much bigger authority on the text than the author.

[Alan Sisto]

No. Especially considering that by this time, he'd made Galadriel practically a saint in his own writings. You look at the development of the character of Galadriel, she becomes better and better and better as the years go on. And by 1972, she is practically perfect in every way.

[Sean Marchese]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. And now she should, like, grab an

[Sean Marchese]

umbrella and yet does less than even Mary Poppins does.

[Alan Sisto]

That's correct.

[Sean Marchese]

She does.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes. Oh, man.

[Sean Marchese]

But, you know, Tolkien's rationale for this is this whole chapter, you know, the sending of the Estari by the Valar. In other words, just sending the Astari was more than Galadriel did.

[Alan Sisto]

Oof.

[Sean Marchese]

And, yeah, that's true.

[Alan Sisto]

It is true.

[Sean Marchese]

She did things. She did her part.

[Alan Sisto]

Mostly what she did was passive. Like I said, unconquerable. Certainly in defense. There's no way, even. Unless Sauron himself came. And even then, I don't know where I'm putting my money. You know what I mean? That's a tough one. Other than defense. Yeah. She's incapable of punitive action.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah. I mean, she wasn't. I guess she wasn't gonna go out there and make war on Sauron. She was. It wasn't going to go and attack him. It wasn't going to retaliate against the things he was doing. That's interesting, isn't it? And then the reading. And sadly, this episode ends with a mention of Gandalf as the guy who ends up really doing it all, which, of course, we know he leads. And he organizes both defensive stands and offensive assaults, which, of course, we know.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, yeah, absolutely. And next week, we will focus solely on everyone's favorite whistle wizard. Now, it is clearly from the Prancing Pony that the emissary came who was called Barlaman. Sean, what does Barlaman have in his bag for us today.

[Sean Marchese]

All right. Well, listener, TJ asked us. The Hobbits, and Sam in particular, seem to think elves have magic. The elves don't seem to think of what they do as magic, but rather the nature of who they are. There's a lot here, but I'll skip ahead to the question and then I'll kind of give some of the examples. The question ultimately is, is, do you think that all people have some aspect of who they are that to others might seem magical? And TJ gives some examples from the text. TJ points out how in Fellowship of the Ring, Frodo, once he learns that the mithril corselet is worth more than the Shire and everything in it, he thinks of the Shire. And then after that, he's protected from the Orc chieftain's spear by not only the mithril, but TJ says maybe his hardiness might be boosted by the fact that the corselet kind of embodies the Shire and his memories of home. And those memories give him strength also. Another example that TJ gives is in the Two Towers. Merry and Pippin seem to get some renewed strength and hope once they feel the grass of Rohan on their feet. And TJ says their hope increases and their endurance seems to be boosted.

[Alan Sisto]

That's interesting. Yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

What do you think of this, Alan? Do you think that all people of Middle Earth have. Have something that they do, something that they're capable of that might seem magical to other people?

[Alan Sisto]

Well, I mean, I'm also thinking of the Hobbit's ability to sort of disappear.

[Sean Marchese]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Their stealthiness is legendary.

[Sean Marchese]

The dwarves skill with mining and with crafting.

[Alan Sisto]

Absolutely. You know, and with some of their literal magic, you think of the hidden Door, you know, on the Lonely Mountain, or the doors of mortals, you know. Now, the doors of Moria were also created with the help of the elves, but still, I mean, certainly the door on the Lonely Mountain that was crafted so well you couldn't see it from the outside, there's no crack at all that's going to seem like magic to ordinary men.

[Sean Marchese]

And yet we're told that this is how dwarven doors are. Right.

[Alan Sisto]

That's just what they are.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And so you wonder sort of like what men's special power is. I'm not sure. They might be the only ones who don't seem to have magic in that sense that, like, other races would see as magic.

[Sean Marchese]

I mean, maybe it's our greater degree of free will, our ability to, you know, shape our Lives beyond the music.

[Alan Sisto]

An elf would look at our ability to shape our own destiny. Yeah, that's true. They would see that as, like, wow, how do you know? How are you able to do that? You know? Yeah, I like the question. I mean, it does feel like so many of the races have magic, though, in fairness, let's be honest. I mean, because in the primary world, we can make the argument, and it has been made, that if you can't explain it, it's magic, right? Yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

It's like Clark's Third Law, Right, Exactly. Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, correct. And to somebody like the Eothiar or the Rohirrim, the advanced medicinal skills of. Of the Men of the west would seem like magic.

[Sean Marchese]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

The ability to use Athelos and to heal people with just the fragrance of an herb, or a herb, as the case may be. What does herb Alpert smell like?

[Sean Marchese]

Tijuana brass, man.

[Alan Sisto]

There you go. So I can see how even subgroups of men might appear magical to others, certainly the Numenoreans themselves. I mean, I think of the story of Tal Omar. The Numenoreans themselves seemed magical to these primitive men that lived in Middle Earth at the time. So much so they couldn't even explain the ships. Like, these were giant birds. Right. Because their boats clearly never had sails. Never had. They were never that size. You know, they had ability to go out on little fishing boats that didn't have sails, but. But they were like, these are wings. Like, what are these things? They can't explain them. So. Yeah, I mean, I suppose there's some truth to the idea that each of the peoples have some aspects. It's just, I think that with men, the dwarves and the elves aren't fooled. Yeah, yeah. That ain't magic, man.

[Sean Marchese]

It's interesting that you brought up the Men of the West's ability to use Athelas, because that's actually an example that Tolkien uses in one of his letters. Oh, yeah. Remember letter number 155, which was the draft that he wrote?

[Alan Sisto]

Wrote.

[Sean Marchese]

That was for Naomi Mitchison.

[Alan Sisto]

Yep.

[Sean Marchese]

That's the one where he talks about Magia and Goetia and the differences between those two.

[Alan Sisto]

Love that letter.

[Sean Marchese]

It's a great letter. And he actually uses Aragorn's healing ability as something that he says might be regarded as magical, or at least a blend of magic with pharmacy and hypnotic processes. Hypnotic in quotes, probably, meaning, you know, like, putting people to sleep, helping them rest, things like that.

[Alan Sisto]

Right, right.

[Sean Marchese]

But he says but it is, in theory, reported by hobbits who have very little notions of philosophy and science, while Aragorn is not a pure man, but at long remove, one of the children of Luthien. So I think that really supports your

[Alan Sisto]

idea, which is why he has that ability. Yeah, right.

[Sean Marchese]

And I think that supports your idea, the idea that Aragorn, you know, you can't learn how to use athelas.

[Alan Sisto]

No.

[Sean Marchese]

Tolkien says in that same letter, you don't come by this through lore or spells. It's an inherent power.

[Alan Sisto]

That's why we get the hands of the king or the hands of a healer. It's got to be a descendant of

[Sean Marchese]

that lineage of Luthien. That's right. That is magical to certain people, but

[Alan Sisto]

to Aragorn, it's just who he is.

[Sean Marchese]

This is first aid for him. This is as easy as wrapping a wound with a bandage.

[Alan Sisto]

He's a combat medic. Yeah, exactly. That's really interesting.

[Sean Marchese]

So I think there is some truth to the idea, and there are some other letters where Tolkien kind of goes into the elves magic and how it's just sort of. It's just their artistic process, and it's not really special to them. It's just the way they make things. So I think that. I think that does lean towards the idea that each. Each race probably has its. Its thing that it can do.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I think so. Great question, though. Absolutely. Great question. So, tj, thank you for that. Well, folks, thank you for joining us for another episode of the Prancing Pony podcast. Please come back again next week when we learn more about everyone's favorite wizard. Not Merlin.

[Sean Marchese]

No. If it's Merlin, you might be at the wrong podcast. I'm sorry.

[Alan Sisto]

Yep.

[Sean Marchese]

Not that we want to turn anybody away. I don't want to gatekeep, but, I mean, you know, come on. This is Team Gandalf here.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right.

[Sean Marchese]

But, folks, Alan and I want to thank the members of Team PPP editor Jordan Reynolds, our Barlaman, Becca Davis, our social media manager Casey Hilsey, event and Patreon community coordinator Katie McKenzie, graphic artist Megan Collins, video editor Yonatan Lazens, and website guru Phil Dean.

[Alan Sisto]

Should I have included Albus Dumbledore in that list? Maybe instead of Merlin? I don't know. What do you think? No, no, no.

[Sean Marchese]

Merlin's definitely better than Dumbledore.

[Alan Sisto]

Fair enough. Please take a minute, folks, to check out the prancingponypodcast.com where we have nothing about Dumbledore or Merlin. It's where you'll instead find show notes, outtakes, Prancing Pony ponderings and are fully reviewed Revamped PPP Merch Store which is where you can get all sorts of cool PPP merch, including the amazing chapter art that Megan has been doing for us now for nearly four seasons.

[Sean Marchese]

Now we're all about the books here at the Prancing Pony Podcast, so be sure to also visit our library page. We try to make sure that any book we've mentioned on the show is linked there for you to purchase and we do get a small amount of compensation when you make your purchase. So thank you for that.

[Alan Sisto]

Indeed, thank you for we also want to thank our patrons at the Cirdance contribution tier. I'll start with Demay in Alaska, Chad in Texas, Joseph in Michigan, Kathy from North Carolina, Brian in the uk, Jerry from Washington, Irwin from the Netherlands, Ben in Minnesota, Anthony in Texas, Zaksu in Illinois, Joshua in Massachusetts, Lucy in Texas, Erica in Texas, James in Massachusetts, Ann in Kentucky and Sean in New Jersey.

[Sean Marchese]

And there's also Mason and Kentucky in California, Maureen from Massachusetts, Olivia in London, Robert in Arizona, Nick in Wisconsin, Lewis in South Carolina, Thomas in Germany, Craig in California, Kevin in Massachusetts, Joe in Maryland, D. Scott in California, Jeffrey in Michigan, Paul in Colorado, David from Connecticut, Teresa from Texas and Lynn in New Jersey. Folks, thank you all so very much.

[Alan Sisto]

Much for your support indeed. Thank you.

[Sean Marchese]

And make sure you don't miss any episodes of the Prancing Pony Podcast. Subscribe now through Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or your favorite podcast app.

[Alan Sisto]

One last thing. As always, don't forget to send your thoughts, comments, and most of all, your excuses for Legolas's underachievement to Barliman at the prancingponypodcast.com Barlaman does have a lot

[Sean Marchese]

of mail to sort through, so we'll get to you as soon as we can.

[Alan Sisto]

Thranduil's deeply disappointed.

[Sean Marchese]

You should have been more concerned at the point of action.

[Alan Sisto]

Well played.

[Sean Marchese]

Sir tosses his beautiful hair.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Is he? Did I Did I use enough conditioner today? As always, though, this has been far too short a time to spend among such excellent and admirable listeners. But until next time, farewell, friends. Sam, You want to get your backyard summer ready, but you don't want to break the bank. Wayfair gets it. Planning on dining al fresco or relaxing poolside?

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