423 – What Do You Want?

Summary

The Prancing Pony Podcast

Episode 423 – What Do You Want?

Release Date: July 26, 2026
Hosts: Alan Sisto & Sean (Shawn) E. Marchese

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Overview

This episode marks a significant milestone as Alan and Shawn wrap up their journey through Unfinished Tales with a deep dive into the final essay, "The Palantíri." They reflect on a decade of podcasting, discuss the lore and mechanics of Tolkien’s mysterious seeing-stones, and offer both technical analysis and personal reflections about the enduring nature of Tolkien fandom. With their trademark humor, banter, and deep expertise, they interweave future plans for the podcast and cast a hopeful gaze toward the next era of community and content.

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Episode Structure

1. [03:40] Reflections on 10 Years of Podcasting & PPP's Future
2. [19:32] Deep Dive: The Lore of the Palantíri
3. [55:43] Legal and Practical Use of the Stones (and Other Logistics)
4. [96:28] Technical Mechanics of Palantíri – Seeing, Sound, and Shrouding
5. [116:29] The User Experience: Mental Effort, Vision Control, and Communication
6. [131:00] Mailbag: The Future of Fandom
7. [143:54] Closing Remarks & Looking Forward

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1. Reflections on 10 Years of Podcasting & PPP's Future

[03:40–19:32]

Key Topics

• PPP's Origin Story

  • "Back then, I don't think we really had any long-term plans or any serious goals. It was just like, we're gonna talk about this stuff and we're gonna talk until people make it clear that they don't wanna listen to us anymore, I guess." – Shawn [04:17]

• Growth & Surprises

  • Alan and Shawn reminisce about growth, reflecting on community strength and the evolution of format, including rotating co-hosts and adapting to listeners' feedback.

• Plans for Future Seasons

  • Next three seasons:
    • Season 11: Beren and Lúthien (with Dr. Sara Brown, starting with the Athrabeth)
    • Season 12: Children of Húrin (with Matt “Nerd of the Rings”)
    • Season 13: Fall of Gondolin (with James Tauber, focusing on textual variants)
  • Planned re-visit to The Silmarillion at a much slower pace.

  "So those three years will get us through July of 2029. That's when I want to do the two year run through the Silmarillion, minus the Great Tales." – Alan [09:30]

• PPP Spin-Off Projects & Events

  • Today's Tolkien Times: Short, daily, and theme-driven (Mailbag, Map Monday, Tolkien Tuesdays, Word Nerd Wednesdays, etc.)
  • Rings of Power Wrap-Up: Three-person format for TV show discussions.
  • PPP Plays: Middle-earth themed gaming stream.
  • Active participation in moots and ongoing plans for collaborative books.

Notable Quote

"It is a collaborative, not competitive scene. Our quest isn’t to destroy a ring; our quest is to build a fandom." — Alan [142:44]

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2. Deep Dive: The Lore of the Palantíri

[19:32–55:43]

Revisiting the Last of Unfinished Tales: "The Palantíri"

Discussion Highlights

• Denethor and the Weight of the Palantír’s Use

  • Using the stone causes strain, especially for those "not trained to the task".
  • Emotional toll directly impacts his personality and relationships.
  • Finduilas, Denethor’s wife, "noticed it before anyone else. And this increased her unhappiness to the hastening of her death." – Shawn [25:07]

• Skill, Bloodline, and Authority

  • Stones are "far more amenable to legitimate users"; best attuned to the heirs of Elendil, but also accessible to those with inherited authority (like the Stewards).
  • Mechanism by which a stone 'knows' authority is left mysterious.

• Comparison: Denethor vs Saruman’s Downfalls

  • Saruman is dominated by Sauron due to personal pride and lack of devotion.
  • Denethor succumbs only to despair, not domination.
  • "If Denethor were as illegitimate a user of the Stone as Saruman was, he would have been overwhelmed long before and…opened the gates to Sauron." – Alan [42:06]

• Stone-to-Stone Communication

  • Only the Master Stone at Osgiliath could eavesdrop on "private calls" between other stones.
  • When one stone was in use, a third stone in the network would be "blank" for the duration.

Memorable, Humorous Moment

"Sauron is a busy guy and he's also really crappy at delegating. So he doesn't have to do this very often." – Alan [28:42]

Alan: “He’s got Mordor’s 500th anniversary to plan, his wedding to arrange, his wife to murder and Gondor to frame for it. He’s swamped.” [29:52]
Shawn: “Oh, that’s so good. That’s great, man.” [30:05]

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3. Legal and Practical Use of the Stones (and Other Logistics)

[55:43–96:28]

Points of Analysis

• Inherited Authority & Stewardship

  • Stones are an "inalienable gift" to Elendil’s heirs; use may be deputized to others (wardens and intelligence officers).
  • "The authority to use or again to depute the use of the stones was lawfully transmitted in their line and belonged, therefore, fully to Denethor." – Sean [55:43]

• Steward’s Hereditary Office

  • Traced from establishment by Romendacil I, with hereditary succession from Húrin of Emyn Arnen onwards.
  • Rising importance and responsibilities through the centuries.

• Comparative Authority: Steward vs. King vs. Chieftain

  • Only the holder of a throne or lordship in the Númenórean realms (by descent from Elendil) can claim full right.
  • "You have to be the senior heir in that lineage…actively on a throne." – Sean [67:19]
  • Aragorn, as "de jure" king, is lawfully permitted to claim the stones even before he takes the throne.

Humor

“Dad, where’s the phone number for Palantír Care?” – Sean [63:55]
“Is the extended warranty still valid? I don’t know. Only been 400 years…” – Alan [63:59]

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4. Technical Mechanics of Palantíri – Seeing, Sound, and Shrouding

[96:28–116:29]

The Stones as Instruments

• Physical Description

  • "Perfect spheres appearing when at rest to be made of solid glass or crystal, deep black in hue."
  • Largest (Osgiliath, Amon Sûl) could not be lifted by one man; “very heavy, but perfectly smooth.” (Alan riffs with weight/physics analysis. See [76:00–81:27])

• Indestructibility & Potential Destruction

  • Virtually unbreakable except perhaps by “great heat such as that of Orodruin” [83:33]
  • Sarcastic aside: “Try C4 or dynamite. Worth a shot.” – Alan [83:34]

• Orientation & Operation

  • Most stones are “fixed”; operator stands at the correct place to look in desired direction.
  • Only the two “major” stones could pivot for full 360° viewing.

• Luck and Fate (SPIBIMI)

  • Improbability of Pippin picking up the stone in just the right orientation for contact with Sauron is highlighted as a special (“SPIBIMI”) moment.

• Stone's ‘Vision’ Technology

  • Only project visual information—not sound.
  • “These are sort of…the silent movie version of FaceTime.” – Alan [98:05]

• Shrouding

  • Stones can’t see through darkness; “shrouding” is a mysterious defense against being observed but means of accomplishing it are lost.

Notable Technical Banter

“You gotta have Best Buy come out and do the calibration again.” – Alan [87:35]
“Geek Squad’s coming out…” – Shawn [87:38]

“These days there’s a sticker on the palantír that says Be Kind, Rewind.” – Alan [105:10]

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5. The User Experience: Mental Effort, Vision Control, and Communication

[116:29–131:00]

Deep Dive Technicalities

• Effort and Focus

  • Skilled users can "concentrate" on specific targets, zooming and enhancing details, but this is extremely tiring.
  • Random/unfocused visions are small and blurry; “Three feet back from the stone gives a better focal view.”
  • “Great concentration might even enlarge some detail…for instance, if he had a ring on his hand.” [119:00]

• Transmitting Speech/Thought

  • Stones do not enable telepathy or mind-reading; only willfully transmitted, linguistically-formed thoughts (or spoken aloud).
  • Must be “in accord” with each other for two-way transmissions.
  • Recipient hears it as clear speech (not just thought), but it's not a Babel Fish—translation isn’t automatic.

Notable Quotes

“So it’s like the conversion of sound to a thought that’s transmitted somehow beyond any—I mean, there’s magic working here—and then converted back to sound.” – Alan [129:38]

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6. Mailbag: The Future of Fandom

[131:00–143:54]

Question

"What's the most surprising thing to you about how the Tolkien community has grown since you and Sean started the podcast? And where do you see it going in the next 10 years?" – Andrew G., Florida [131:08]

Alan’s Reflection

• Acknowledges the consistency and warmth of Tolkien fandom:
  "None of the fandoms are as warm and welcoming and friendly as the Tolkien community… I feel like none of that is really surprising to me because it's the Tolkien fandom. It's a fandom of works that encourage that sort of behavior, that warm the heart, that talk about fellowship." [133:05]

• Observes increasing inclusivity, adaptation-driven growth, and healthy generational turnover.

• Hopes for continued collegiality:
  "If you view it that way, these people are in your fellowship. Our quest isn’t to destroy a ring; our quest is to build a fandom." [142:44]

• Sean expands on the influx of new creators/voices on new platforms, and expresses optimism for further generational renewal.

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7. Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Technical Lore

  • "I know how to use Eldamo now. I mean like I used to not understand any of that stuff." — Alan [14:06]
  • "I know you’d like those coming out on those and that’s awesome." — Shawn [14:55]

• On Sauron as a Boss

  • "He is a busy guy, right? I mean, he has Mordor's 500th anniversary to plan, his wedding to arrange, his wife to murder and Gondor to frame for it. He's swamped." — Alan [29:52]

• On the Stones’ Security

  • "Dad, where's the phone number for Palantír Care?" – Sean [63:55]

• On Fandom

  • "I am still at my heart, a bit of a book purist, but I'm never going to impose that book purity on others. I'm really glad to see people coming into the fandom, however they get there. Where I see it going is growing and growing into more adaptations." — Alan [137:51]

• On Community

  • "Our quest isn’t to destroy a ring; our quest is to build a fandom." — Alan [142:44]
  • "That is true, folks, I just want to say that is true of everybody. Even the people you disagree with, you know. Yeah, maybe even. Especially those folks." – Alan [143:41]

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8. Timestamps to Key Segments

• [03:40] – Beginning reflections & future plans
• [19:32] – Palantíri lore and Denethor’s use
• [55:43] – Legal intricacies, stewards, and authority
• [76:00–81:27] – Detailed analysis of Palantíri weight, material, and physics
• [96:28] – Technical mechanics, vision, sound, and shrouding
• [116:29] – User experience, mental effort, and example scenario
• [131:00] – Future of Tolkien fandom and community
• [143:54] – Thank-yous and conclusion

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Tone and Language

• Tone: Warm, humorous, colloquial, and at times self-effacing; full of in-jokes, puns, and pop culture references (from The Princess Bride to 'Geek Squad’ to 'Be Kind, Rewind’).
• Language: Casual but scholarly; frequent analogies and asides; deep expertise and gentle ribbing between co-hosts; original Tolkien prose maintained in readings; playful adaptation of technical/modern concepts to Tolkien's world.

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Conclusion

Episode 423 stands as a testament to both the complexity of Tolkien’s legendarium and the enduring appeal of communal analysis. Alan and Shawn weave together lore, laughter, and legacy. "What Do You Want?" is not just a question for Denethor at the palantír but for the podcast, the fandom, and all who seek meaning in Middle-earth—inviting listeners to gaze ahead to new stories and deeper engagement.

"It’s a collaboration…we’ve got a quest. Our quest isn’t to destroy a ring; our quest is to build a fandom." — Alan [142:44]

Transcript

[Alan Sisto]

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[Sean Marchese]

Pick up.

[Alan Sisto]

Fees may apply. Good evening, little masters, and welcome to episode 423 of the Prancing Pony podcast. Where I could, after I acquire the skill, learn much of distant events by the use of the anor stone alone.

[Sean Marchese]

That's a good thing. Sauron isn't trying to dominate or delude you today.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, today.

[Sean Marchese]

But. But. Folks, pull up a bench in the common room and join us. I'm Sean Marchese, the Lord of the Mark, and I'm here with the man of the west who's still trying to obtain his Palantiri permit, Alan Sisto.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, they keep telling me I'm not a legitimate user. I'm wondering, do I need a Password reset? Is my 2fa broken? What's going on here? Legitimate user.

[Sean Marchese]

Take off your glasses. Try that.

[Alan Sisto]

See if that may not recognize me. That's. I think that's it.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Folks, join us for a closer look at the way these stones work. And no, they don't work that way. As we conclude our two episode look the last chapter in Unfinished Tales on the Palantiri. This also marks the end of my time with Shawn here in season 10 and season 10 itself, with our time in Unfinished Tales coming to a close.

[Sean Marchese]

The tales might not be finished, but I guess we're just about finished with them, aren't we?

[Alan Sisto]

That's very leaf by Niggle. We're not done with it. But they're done with us.

[Sean Marchese]

They're done with us. Exactly. But, folks, no matter whether you came to Middle Earth through the books, the films, the TV show, or something else, each one of you is welcome here in our common room. The Prancing Pony Podcast continues in our 10th season of Reading and talking our way through Middle Earth with conversations, digressions, and even speculations.

[Alan Sisto]

Not to mention the occasional pun or bad joke here and there. But our purpose, as always, never. I was going to say bonus in both of those categories when you're on the show. Our purpose, though, folks, is always to dive deep into the lore, to talk about the story, our favorite characters and themes, Tolkien's inspirations, and a whole lot more.

[Sean Marchese]

That's right. And while we take the work seriously, the same cannot be said about ourselves. We are just a couple of old friends chatting at the pub. And we are glad you've joined us.

[Alan Sisto]

And I'm sure you'll be glad you joined as well.

[Sean Marchese]

But before we get to today's chapter discussion, well, it's time for me to sit down with, well, with Alan to talk about his plans for next year or the next three years or so here at the Prancing Pony Podcast.

[Alan Sisto]

All right, I guess I can do that. I'm not busy.

[Sean Marchese]

I've got you here. You're not going anywhere else right now, so I might as well ask you these questions. Yeah, no, I hope folks like this, I was thinking about the fact that it has been. Well, obviously it's been more than 10 years since we started this show. Back then, I don't think we really had any long term plans or any serious goals. It was just like, we're gonna talk about this stuff and we're gonna talk until people make it clear that they don't wanna listen to us anymore. I guess.

[Alan Sisto]

Which I thought would be about three weeks, but yeah, you know, yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

But here we are ten years later, and you do have some plans for the ppp.

[Alan Sisto]

I do.

[Sean Marchese]

Don't you? I mean, so here we are, we're getting through Unfinished Tales in this episode, end of season 10. Like you said, what's season 11 gonna look like? And if you have an idea, what Future seasons are gonna hold for listeners. What's that gonna be?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, well, you know, I mean, when we move from the beginning, when we started with the Silmarillion, it felt very natural to then move chronologically to the Hobbit and then the Lord of the Rings. In fact, I think we even talked about that during our time in the Silmarillion, like, if we ever get there. Right. Cause we didn't know that we would keep doing it. We would go to the Hobbit next. When we started the Lord of the Rings, the realization. I blame Corey for this, but when we had him on at the end of season one and we talked about how we'd taken 44 episodes to cover the Silmaril, and he goes, yeah, that'.

[Sean Marchese]

You rushed it. Yeah, you might have rushed it.

[Alan Sisto]

You rushed it. And he was actually right, you know.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

So we didn't go down to his pace, which, of course, you know, would take us about 40 years to get through the Lord of the Rings. And I'm not exaggerating, I don't think.

[Sean Marchese]

No.

[Alan Sisto]

We decided that we would do one of each of the six books over the course of the next six seasons. And at that point, I wasn't thinking about what would come after because, honestly, I didn't know that we'd get there. That was another six years. Yeah. So this year, though, or actually towards the end of last season, I began to think, like, what's the show going to look like now that I've made it through last year, the appendices, and this year, Unfinished Tales. You and I had talked at one point about doing a revisit to the Silmarillion at that slower pace. And that is still very much on my agenda, but not for right away. I feel like what I want to do over the next three seasons is cover each of the Great Tales, one season per Great Tale. Originally, I thought, oh, yeah, I'll do. Season 11 will be the Great Tales, season 12 will be the Silmarillion redone. And then I wait a minute. I'm going to try to cover each of the Great Tales in what, about 12, 13 episodes each? Not possible.

[Sean Marchese]

I don't see that happening for some of these.

[Alan Sisto]

No, we just covered Aldarian and Arendus. It took us 11 episodes. There's no way I'm covering all of these shows.

[Sean Marchese]

You're not doing Children of Hurren in that.

[Alan Sisto]

No, in that same time frame. So then I was like, well, you know, maybe I'll do all three over a course of two years. Nah, nah. The right way to do this is one per year. So next season, season 11 is going to be Baron and Luthien. And the primary co host for next season will be Dr. Sara Brown, who's very knowledgeable about the Baron and Luthien story and who I'm looking forward to working with very much. We're actually going to start with some episodes on the Athrobath to sort of lay the foundation for this whole discussion of Elvish Surya longevity versus human mortality.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And then we'll move into Baron and Luthien. The book. Right. Not just the story is found in the Silmarillion, but the. The actual great tale that was published, you know, not too many years ago.

[Sean Marchese]

So that's got some stuff from the Lay of Laythean in there.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly.

[Sean Marchese]

Some of the poetry, the old Tevildo version.

[Alan Sisto]

Ah, yes. We can't wait to get to Tevildo. That's going to be a lot of fun. I'm going to have to have you back for the Tevildo episode.

[Sean Marchese]

That would be a lot of fun. I would love to come back to build those.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, we will. I will definitely keep that in mind.

[Sean Marchese]

All right.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, I tell you what, that actually is one of the things that I'm most hesitant about, and I'm not. It has nothing to do with the individual co hosts. I mean, Sara and Matt and James are fantastic. But since your departure from the show, I have always worked with this rotating panel, and that's been. I found that's been a really interesting way to approach the text. I get a different angle each. Each time, going with a primary co host for each, I lose that. But what I'm planning on doing is maybe bringing in as a third host a few times a year, each of the others, including you. So that way there'll be a time where, yeah, Sara and I may be the two primarily discussing Baird and Luthien next year, but Matt will make a couple of appearances, you'll make a couple of appearances, James will make a couple of appearances, and then we'll keep up that habit. When I get into season 12 with children of Hurin, which Matt laid claim to Nerd of the Rings, like, almost like the very first time he worked with me, goes, if you ever do Children of Hurin, I got dibs on that.

[Sean Marchese]

Awesome.

[Alan Sisto]

So he and I are going to do Children of hurin in season 12, Nerd of the Rings, and then season 13, because by then, hopefully, James Tower will have completed or gotten his doctoral work under control, and Be able to take a little bit of a break. He's going to do the Fall of Gondolin with me in season 13. And there' nobody better to handle all the textual variants of Fall of Gondolin than somebody who specializes in textual variants like James.

[Sean Marchese]

Sure, yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

So those three years will get us through July of 2029. That's when I want to do the two year run through the Silmarillion, minus the Great Tales. I'm not going to revisit barren Aleutian children and the Fall of Gondolin. So that will give me more time to focus in and really spread out and take that slower pace that you and I sort of wished we'd done in hindsight. So if you win the lottery sometime in the next three years, I will then have you come back for 29 to 31.

[Sean Marchese]

That would be hopeful. Yeah, that would be cool.

[Alan Sisto]

And then after that, who knows? I think after that probably a year or two of the non legendarium works. But I might do a couple of History Middle Earth highlight seasons. I'm not going to do a season each on the volumes of History Middle Earth, that's too deep a dive, I think, for me. I'm not saying it's too deep of a dive for my audience. I'm sure everybody out there would enjoy it. But I think maybe two years of those highlights, if you will. So we cover all the big stuff, you know, we get to talk about. Oh, I'm just trying. I mean, most of my brain is going to the later volumes because that's where I spent a lot of time lately, like Morgoth's ring and people's Middle Earth.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, but you will have already talked about things like the afterbeth, because you're going to be talking about it with Sara, so.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. So there will be some elements that I don't need to hit, but I think that might be something. It's a one season or two season, and then one season or two season of non legendarium works.

[Sean Marchese]

So if you decide to do any of the linguistic stuff in like volume five, you know where to find me.

[Alan Sisto]

The rotating host panel is coming back for the history of Metal Earth stuff because then I can bring in experts. Yeah, because of course, as you know, I am the most general of generalists.

[Sean Marchese]

So that's not a bad thing.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a good thing. Jack of all Trades, Ace of None is frankly not that bad. It means I'll beat like 75% of the hands out there. But there are going to be People who know more about, well, everything. But that's okay. So, yeah, I think it's probably an eight year run from here.

[Sean Marchese]

Wow.

[Alan Sisto]

Which would take me to, you know, July of 2034. You know, I'll be. I'll be old enough, Lord knows, to. To retire at that point. Whether I have the financial ability to do so is still in question. Yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

That's awesome. I love to hear that You've got like this whole plan laid out for several years and, man, just keep me in mind. I'm looking forward to being a part of it as much as I can.

[Alan Sisto]

I was gonna say, you're always welcome here at the Prancing Pony. I mean, you know that. So anytime you want, you just let me know. We'll get you on.

[Sean Marchese]

Very cool. You've got a few other projects going as well that are all related to the Prancing Pony podcast. I mean, I know some of our listeners tune into the Daily TTT Today's Tolkien Times. But for those who don't, why don't you tell them a little bit about what today's Tolkien times is all about?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's. From what I'm able to tell, numbers wise, It's. It's about 15, 20% of the audience of the PPP that listens to that. So there's a lot of you out there that don't. You might want to give it a try. It is a short format show. Every episode is about eight to 10 minutes. It runs from Monday through Saturday for seven weeks. And then I take three weeks off so I can recalibrate and figure out what I'm going to talk about in. In the next series. Each day has its own theme. So Mondays started as Mailbag Mondays and I was just answering questions and that became Middle Earth Map Monday, which I've been running now for two years. I think that's coming to an end. Very soon I will have covered every place on the map, I believe.

[Sean Marchese]

So you're getting down to like the little tiny areas that don't even have a name, but you're just going to talk about it?

[Alan Sisto]

Kind of. Kind of. I mean, we, you know, weeks in Gondor. I think Gondor was alone something like three series or 21 weeks to cover all the different regions of Gondor. But I'm getting Frodo and Sam to Mount Doom in a couple of weeks and. And that's it. That's the end of it. So we'll see. Yeah, Tuesdays have always been Tolkien Tuesdays. No not always. I forgot about Turin Turambar Tuesdays where I did the story of Turin for a couple of. A couple of alliterative series.

[Sean Marchese]

Nothing like a good alliteration. You got to tell.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. It's all about alliteration. It's. As you know, we've. I've sort of, I've gone ahead and leaned real heavily into that. So Tolkien Tuesdays. I've covered things like Carpenter's biography. I mostly do letters and so I'll. I'll read a little bit of a letter and talk through it and sort of explain things and maybe pull other letters together to bring context to it. Wednesdays have always been. That's the only one that hasn't changed Word Nerd Wednesdays. That may just be because I can't find anything else to alliterate, but it's been fantastic. I've tried to up my, my word nerdery skills to.

[Sean Marchese]

You've come a long way. You've. You've.

[Alan Sisto]

I know how to use El Damo now. I mean like I used to not understand any of that stuff.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And Vineyard Tengwar and reading, you know, the etymologies and you know, so I mean I'm starting to really get into there and, and having Parma El de lamber on 17 on. On speed dial, so to speak.

[Sean Marchese]

Very good.

[Alan Sisto]

So, you know, Third Age Thursdays, Fandom Fridays became First Stage Fridays became Friendship Fridays where I'm diving into just six episodes on the friendship of Legolas and Gimli or something like that. Silmarillion Saturday, Second Age Saturday. So it's been a lot of fun. They're short, they're bite size, easy to get into and of course now with 750 episodes on tap, you can find anything you want probably. It's. If it's, if it's not there, it'll be there soon.

[Sean Marchese]

I have really loved like, especially like the Fandom Fridays and of course the word Nerd Wednesdays. There's been some. I know you'd like those coming out on those and that's awesome.

[Alan Sisto]

Thanks.

[Sean Marchese]

That's. That's really cool. And you know, hey, keep doing it long enough, there's going to be new fans coming up. You could talk about. You could come back to Fandom Fridays and you know, there's always new stuff out there.

[Alan Sisto]

I sort of missed that at. The hardest part was just the logistics of trying to line up seven or eight guests for a stretch and getting all the interviews done. But one of my patrons had the idea of just dabbling them in here and there. So, like maybe I have Friendship Fridays or whatever it might be that week or that series, but like once or twice I sprinkle in a, you know,

[Sean Marchese]

drop in a fandom Friday. Yeah, no, that's absolutely.

[Alan Sisto]

So we'll see how that goes.

[Sean Marchese]

Well, I have known you for over a decade now and I know you well enough to know that that can't be all that's going on.

[Alan Sisto]

True.

[Sean Marchese]

What else? You got to have something else on the PPP plate here. Anything.

[Alan Sisto]

I do. I mean, of course you know about Rings of Power. Wrap up. You and I started that just before your time to step down and that's been an interesting show. I've been enjoying working with Sara and James on that. It's a fun format doing a three person show that's more about the reactions and conversations that take place around the TV show. I'm grateful that the TV show only runs for like two months at a time every two years because it is an intense period of time.

[Sean Marchese]

It's a lot.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, it is a lot. And I'm honestly a little ticked at Amazon for lining this one up to come out in November. So it'll take up the entire holiday season, right?

[Sean Marchese]

Over the holidays. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Thank you very much. I'm going to have absolutely no Thanksgiving, Christmas, New Year's, Heidi's birthday, Ellie's birthday, they're all gone. So.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

But you know, it's all right. It's a lot of fun to work with Sarah and James and it is sometimes fun to watch the show as well.

[Sean Marchese]

Agreed. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm also of course doing the PPP plays. That is a streaming show that I'm trying to do twice a week where I do two hours of chatting and streaming of some sort of Middle Earth gaming related thing. Lately it has been almost all Lord of the Rings online. In fact, I've partnered with Standing Stone Games as an official content creator with the LOTRO project. So that's been fun. But I am looking forward to doing some other projects. I've got a number of LEGO kits that need building. I've got some Magic the Gathering cards that need playing. And of course the Hobbit expansion for Magic is coming out this summer. I may be going to Gen Con to play that and to learn a little bit more and then introduce that on the stream. And then of course there's moots. Katie and I, you were of course a keynoter at our most recent one. We already have plans to put together a digital moot, hopefully later this year. And then another hybrid One next year. And then you and I have chatted about the idea of a sequel to. To our book.

[Sean Marchese]

Absolutely. I'm looking forward to that someday.

[Alan Sisto]

If we can find a publisher.

[Sean Marchese]

If we can find a publisher. We've got a lot more stuff to say.

[Alan Sisto]

We do.

[Sean Marchese]

So, yeah, looking forward to getting that written.

[Alan Sisto]

So if you're a publisher who plans on being around in another few years. Our last two have not.

[Sean Marchese]

Keep us in mind.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, then keep us in mind. Please do.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah. No, that sounds great. And always excited for another PPP moot. What about other moots are you doing? You got any plans to go to any other. Anybody else's moots over the next couple of years?

[Alan Sisto]

I am going to be going to Mythmote this year.

[Sean Marchese]

Okay.

[Alan Sisto]

And then next year I'm planning on going to Tolkien 27. The big Tolkien Society event that they're doing. Sort of like Tolkien 2019 was in Birmingham. Those are the two big ones. I would like to try to make it to Westmut next year. I didn't make it this year and that's unfortunate because everybody had a wonderful time.

[Sean Marchese]

It was a lot of fun. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

So we'll see what happens next year. But yeah, that's really about it. PPP TTT Rings of Power WRAP UP Streaming show Moots. Other Moots hopefully eventually start doing some papers at some of these Moots, but probably not for a little bit longer. Yeah, I'd like to do that.

[Sean Marchese]

That's all super exciting. We all know you're a busy man and I for one am thankful that you are doing everything you're doing to just like keep this community alive and active and keep putting out great content. So thank you, thank you and thank

[Alan Sisto]

the rest of the community because that's been probably the biggest surprise to me since you and I started the show was just how incredible this community has been. So I'm happy to do that for sure. Really am.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing all that, Alan. Hope that gives folks listening a lot of stuff to be excited about. But for now, let's go ahead and finish a book, man. Let's go to the last section of the Palantiri.

[Alan Sisto]

Alright. Denethor could, after he had acquired the skill, learn much of distant events by the use of the Anor Stone alone. And even after Sauron became aware of his operations, he could still do so as long as he retained the strength to control his stone to his own purposes. In spite of Sauron's attempt to wrench the Anor Stone always towards himself. It must also be Considered that the stones were only a small item in Sauron's vast designs and operations a means of dominating and deluding two of his opponents. But he would not and could not have the Ithil stone under perpetual observation. It was not his way to commit such instruments to the use of subordinates. Nor had he any servant whose mental powers were superior to Sodomon's or even Denethor's. Denethor's? Like I'm right here, man. Or even.

[Sean Marchese]

What makes you think that guy's smarter than me? Come on.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm sorry. That just killed me every time I read that. Like coming back, though. In the case of Denethor the steward was strengthened even against Sauron himself by the fact that the stones were far more amenable to legitimate users. Most of all to true heirs of Elendil as Aragorn but also to one with inherited authority as Denethor. As compared to Saruman or Sauron, it may be noted that the effects were different. Saruman fell under the domination of Sauron and desired his victory, or no longer opposed it. Denethor remained steadfast in his rejection of Sauron but was made to believe that his victory was inevitable and so fell into despair. The reasons for this difference were no doubt that in the first place, Denethor was a man of great strength of will and maintained the integrity of his personality until the final blow of the apparently mortal wound of his only surviving son. He was proud, but this was by no means merely personal. He loved Gondor and its people and deemed himself appointed by destiny to lead them in this desperate time. And in the second place, the Anor stone was his by right and nothing but expediency was against his use of it. In his grave anxieties he must have guessed that the Ithil stone was in evil hands and risked contact with it, trusting his strength. His trust was not entirely unjustified. Sauron failed to dominate him and could only influence him by deceits. Probably he did not at first look towards Mordor but was content with such far views as the stone would afford. Hence his surprising knowledge of events far off. Whether he ever thus made contact with the Orthanc stone and Saruman is not told probably he did, and did so with profit to himself. Sauron could not break in on these conferences. Only the surveyor, using the Master stone of Osgiliath could eavesdrop. While two of the other stones were in response the third would find them both blank. That's interesting, isn't it?

[Sean Marchese]

This is very interesting. There's some cool stuff to unpack here.

[Alan Sisto]

There really is, definitely.

[Sean Marchese]

So let me remind folks where we left off last time. We left off last time talking about Denethor and the Anor stone. And we're still talking about Denethor and the Anor stone here, but we skipped reading a little bit at the beginning of the passage you just read. So let's take a look at that. In that section, Tolkien first talks about the sort of general wear on Denethor that he experiences from using the stone at all. So he's just using the stone at all is having an effect on him. But then he distinguishes that from something else that he calls the breaking strain of him confronting Sauron through it. So bad enough to just use the stone, but then when you're actually engaging with Sauron on the other end, it's that much harder.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I mean, it's. It's the difference between the car having a lot of highway miles and tracking it every weekend. You know, I mean, it's. Yeah, you're talking about general wear versus the braking strength.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Alan Sisto]

And I'm sorry, I'm always going to bring cars into it. The footnote here explains that using a stone was a mental strain especially. And I thought this was really interesting on men of later days not trained to the task, and that it was Denethors use of the stone that was something that contributed to his grimness. And even though the footnote just says contributed to his grimness, I have to say. And it probably also contributed to the aging that Gandalf had observed.

[Sean Marchese]

Oh, I'm sure. Yeah, I think that did have an effect on him for sure. It's interesting, this idea of him not being trained to the task, that once upon a time there was some knowledge about how to use them, maybe safely, maybe with, you know, without all this strain.

[Alan Sisto]

Microsoft certified Palantir user. You know, you could use your.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, yeah. He's like, hey, you shouldn't handle that without a license. You know.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. That's right. You'd have to put that credential on your LinkedIn and, you know.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, yeah, you probably got like. Yeah, like a 3.3letter abbreviation after it. Certified Palantir user. CPU. Something like that.

[Alan Sisto]

CPU. I like that. Yeah, that works.

[Sean Marchese]

Jokes aside, we do get a line in this footnote that's particularly sad given what we just talked about last week about. Remember, we talked about Denethor and the fact that he did genuinely love his. His wife Vinduilas, again in his fashion.

[Alan Sisto]

We're told yeah, yeah. Limits.

[Sean Marchese]

He wasn't really a guy that was in touch with his feelings, but he did love his wife.

[Alan Sisto]

He did, yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

But we're told that specifically that his grimness was something that Finduilas felt and she noticed it before anyone else. And this increased her unhappiness to the hastening of her death.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, that's hard to hear, isn't Is?

[Sean Marchese]

I mean, this is kind of this idea of dying of a broken heart or, you know, not wanting to. Not wanting to go on fighting against an illness because she's just so unhappy. And that is. That's very sad.

[Alan Sisto]

And it suggests to me that she loved him in return. That, I mean, it was his strain, his emotional wearing down was directly impacting her. She cared about him. And so when he was being drained and going through this experience, causing him to then be grim, it made her unhappy.

[Sean Marchese]

It was aware on her as well.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that's sad.

[Sean Marchese]

I'm tempted to think that maybe she loved him a little more than he loved her.

[Alan Sisto]

I think so.

[Sean Marchese]

Not basing that on a whole lot, but, I mean, does seem like a possibility.

[Alan Sisto]

It does. The fact that his grimness, his stress levels. I mean, you and I have both been, you know, have each been married for a very long time and. And we know that when your spouse is under pressure and things are not going well and they're under strain, you feel it. I mean, you can't help but feel it. And so, you know, imagine.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, she.

[Alan Sisto]

She had to have been dealing with this on a daily basis. Every time he looks in the stone, he's taken another step downhill. And it's a combination of watching the man she loves disintegrate in front of her eyes. But also, if that contributed to his grimness, you have to imagine he didn't exactly, you know, treat her well in those moments of grimness. Like it would have been a wedge in their relationship. Yeah, right.

[Sean Marchese]

A lot of that going around in that family, apparently.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, the true that. So, you know, it turns out that Denethor assumed, and this is interesting in the text here, not unreasonably, that he could deal with the general strain of using that stone, but he never thought, when he initially started to use it, that he'd have to confront Sauron. And of course, he was unlikely to have to for quite some time. I mean, he started using it all the way back when he became the steward, even, you know, early, early on. So it was a number of years before he would have faced Sauron.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah. And it's interesting, this idea of him assuming that he could deal with it and not unreasonably. It's. There was some justification for the idea that he might be able to handle it. I mean, we talked last time about his strength of will, that he had this confidence that he had. He was very intelligent. We'll talk about this later, this episode. About the fact that he has a right to use it. He has the authority to use it as the steward. So he probably did think that he could handle it. I know what I'm doing.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly.

[Sean Marchese]

But it ended up being that much harder with Sauron.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

On the other end of the line.

[Alan Sisto]

Hello. Had to come back to that one.

[Sean Marchese]

Had to go back to that. So Christopher Tolkien then points us to a later moment in this essay for an understanding of the seeing aspects of the stones as opposed to the communication aspect. We'll get to that in a bit. No need to dive into that yet. Right, but then that's where you picked up the reading with Denethor, discovering once he'd gotten good enough with the stone, kind of knew how to use it. He discovered that he could gather intelligence just by using the stone.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. The challenge, of course, came. Once Sauron was aware that he was doing this, he would try to take control of the Anor stone. And that required Denethor to then not just exercise his skill to use the stone, but to use his strength to maintain control. So now he's having to do, you know, multiple things. But there is an advantage here. Sauron is a busy guy and he's also really crappy at delegating. So he doesn't have to do this very often.

[Sean Marchese]

There's nobody that's on the team that's good enough to use it. Not even the Witch King apparently can be trusted with the stone. That's wild. And Sauron, he's just a kind of a hands on. He's kind of like a micromanager kind of boss. He's the guy. He's like, well, it's just easier to do it myself and try to train somebody else. So, like, that's the guy. This is. That is the guy for anybody who's had that boss, you know how great he is to work for.

[Alan Sisto]

Not to mention the fact that his HR department is. Is all about like, you know, eternal torment and flaying your soul.

[Sean Marchese]

Right? Yeah, yeah. But seriously, it's a lot. He's got a lot going on. Quite a bit.

[Alan Sisto]

He's got a really good retirement program, if you can survive to retire.

[Sean Marchese]

If you could survive it.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I mean, he is a busy guy, right? I mean, he has Mordor's 500th anniversary to plan, his wedding to arrange, his wife to murder and Gondor to frame for it. He's swamped.

[Sean Marchese]

I'm swamped. Oh, that's so good. That's great, man. Oh, oh, Chris Sarandon. He would have been a good Sauron, wouldn't he?

[Alan Sisto]

That would have been a very. A very refined Sauron. You know, not quite the over the top, you know, flaming eye that. But just like.

[Sean Marchese]

I would not say such things if I were you. That would be great, man.

[Alan Sisto]

That would be great. I love it. Every ship that you'll fall fastest.

[Sean Marchese]

Right, of course, of course. Of course. Not those. Oh, man. No. I mean. And he did have a lot of other demands on his time. Really. Yeah. All joking aside, you know, and the Ithil Stone wasn't constantly under his watch. So that's how we get this idea. There must have been these times that Denethor is just gonna luck out because he just. He happens to use the stone and Sauron's not on the other end so he doesn't have to fight Sauron for control. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And now I'm picturing Sauron with an app on his phone. You know, like a little ding. Ooh. Denethor's using the stone.

[Sean Marchese]

Denethor is.

[Alan Sisto]

Denethor's online.

[Sean Marchese]

Denethor is available. Yeah, exactly. And then it's like. And then suddenly it's just like he calls him and Denethor's like, oh, this guy again.

[Alan Sisto]

Not again. I gotta remember to go on private mode. Yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

Every time I pick up my stone, there's Sauron at the other end. You kind of hit on this during your reading. There is one interesting line I think is worth talking about a little bit. The idea that Team Sauron, nobody on the team, had mental powers superior to Saurman's. Or even Denethor's.

[Alan Sisto]

Or even Denethor's.

[Sean Marchese]

Just as a reminder right here, Saruman's here. And I know listeners can't see where my hand is, but Saruman's here. Denethor's way down here.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. That's right.

[Sean Marchese]

Poor Denethor.

[Alan Sisto]

Pretty funny. I mean, forget the slight to Denethor, but yeah, smart as he is, he is. No, Maia.

[Sean Marchese]

It does make sense. Yeah, exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, I mean, that's the thing we got to remember. We just did the chapter on the Eastri. Saruman is an eternal being whose beginning was with Iluvatar himself.

[Sean Marchese]

Right? He's got a good head on his shoulders. He really makes bad choices.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly, Exactly. Very bad choices.

[Sean Marchese]

And he is a dummy mommy. What's Brett Devereaux's line?

[Alan Sisto]

He's a dummy mommy whose plans don't work because they're bad. There you go.

[Sean Marchese]

He is a dummy mommy whose plans don't work because they're bad. But he's book smart.

[Alan Sisto]

He is. That's a way to put it. Nobody on his team is even at Denethor's level, let alone Saruman's. So the interesting thing, though, I mean, sure, there's not an Orc alive who could hold a candle to any man of Gondor.

[Sean Marchese]

Of course not.

[Alan Sisto]

But what about people like the Mouth of Sauron or the Witch King? I mean, the dude ran Angmar.

[Sean Marchese]

I mean. Yeah, but I mean, the Witch King is known for having made some pretty big miscalculations. That is saying that is true.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, he made some assumptions through his fingers and.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, yeah. And he's like, oh, no, man. All right, I got this. No man can kill me. I'm good. You know?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

So a few. A few miscalculations in the Witch King's record. The Mouth of Sauron. That's an interesting one. I mean, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Black Numenorean, Totally loyal.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, I mean, I guess he's your PR guy.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

So do you need him to be smart? I'm sorry, I just offended an entire. Oh, my gosh. I love it, though. That's an entire industry of PR people who are listening to this podcast. I apologize. Some of my dearest friends work in pr. I'm not.

[Alan Sisto]

I was gonna say, I know a lot of people in marketing and pr.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Brilliant people.

[Sean Marchese]

Oh, absolutely. They.

[Alan Sisto]

I don't know that I trust them with a Palantir, but I wouldn't trust myself with one. Right.

[Sean Marchese]

But I mean, I don't know. It's kind of like your social media manager. Maybe it works, I don't know. But apparently it didn't for Sauron.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. And I think it may just come back to what you said before. He is very much a hands on, if we want to call it positive spin, but micromanager, if we want to be honest about it.

[Sean Marchese]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

But that's when we get to a bit about the authority to use the stones. And this is super important. It actually comes back up again once or twice in the rest of this essay. The stones are said to have been far more amenable to legitimate users, which is why I can't use one, because you're illegitimate.

[Sean Marchese]

We all know that. It's an interesting turn of phrase, though far more amenable. It doesn't mean that they don't work at all for non legitimate users. This isn't like a PIN on your phone. And if you're not the legitimate user, you can't get in. It's not a binary. But they somehow respond to the nature of the user. Maybe legitimate users maybe can use them with less strain. Maybe legitimate users can use them more efficiently, can do more with them.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Look at further distances or look back in time more.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, maybe so. And that's true especially of people who have the right bloodline. So these are people like Aragorn. But the text says that it's also true for those who have inherited authority, like the stewards have. Now this is interesting. I'm wondering like how this works. Like how. What's the mechanism for. I know, Determining inherited authority.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. I mean, it's got to be some sort of biometric scan or, you know, it looks at your retina. It's like, wait a minute, right? Who are you? You're not registered to this device.

[Sean Marchese]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Download the app to your phone and then come back and we'll know.

[Sean Marchese]

It's two factor authentication.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. You got to have two fa. You probably have to have a dongle to make this work, right?

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah. Denethor is waiting for the beacons to light and send him a six digit code.

[Alan Sisto]

The six digit code that he can

[Sean Marchese]

punch in and put into the palantir.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I like that idea. It is interesting. I also wonder though, that inherited authority has got to be pretty broad. I mean, right now it only applies to the Stewards and to the stewards immediate heir. But during the time of the Kings, remember we read that the Kings didn't really use them. There were people who were essentially the stewards of the palantirs. They were like, they were the attendees. They sat there. Their job was to monitor the stones. They would have to be operating under inherited authority.

[Sean Marchese]

I think so, yeah. I mean, it's the idea that you've been. I think Tolkien actually uses this word in one of the readings later today. Deputed. You know, you've been basically deputized to use the stones and that counts as a type of inherited authority.

[Alan Sisto]

And that's interesting, which is so interesting because how would the stone know that?

[Sean Marchese]

I mean, that's what I'm wondering.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, like how does it. Do I have to introduce the deputy? Do I say, hello, my name is King? You know, whatever. Whichever one I'M and this is, this is my deputy, so and so go and put your hand on it, you know, so it's like the two hands to launch a nuclear missile type of deal. You got to both hands on there to authorize him.

[Sean Marchese]

And then, and then the Palantir just scans the fingerprints and now it recognizes you.

[Alan Sisto]

I know it's silly to think about that sort of mechanical sense, but it is weird. Like would the stone know this? The. These are more tool and less sentient than things like the ring, let alone or even the other three rings, but let alone the one ring. So how do they, how do they work? We don't know. But it's interesting to think about. And the point though is that when we talk about this deputy authority or this legitimate users thing, the point is that Saruman and Sauron, for as powerful as they are, the fact that they're, they're my are they don't have the correct lineage and they don't have the legitimate or inherited authority to use the stones. So they're going to work differently like you said, either it's going to be more strenuous or they're going to be more limited in their abilities. In some way, they're going to be lesser. But then we just move on from that straight away to how it impacted both of them, huh?

[Sean Marchese]

Right. Well, and that is what makes this next part so fascinating because you know, we get this important distinction here in the way their interactions with Sauron, both Saruman and Denethor, their interactions with Sauron impacted them.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

So for Saruman, he's said to have fallen under the domination of Sauron and he got to a point where he either wanted Sauron to win or he didn't care if he won.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah. At the same time, Denethor on the other hand, his sort of natural opposition to Sauron remained. He was still steadfast. You know, this is a guy we talked about last week is masterful, wise, learned, strong willed, confident, Dauntless, all these great adjectives. So Sauron's not able to dominate him. Instead he has to trick him. Right? He has to use the Palantiri, which cannot show false images, but he has to show them in such a way, you know, lacking context. So that Denethor ends up falling into total despair thinking that this defeat, his defeat, is inevitable at the hands of Sauron.

[Sean Marchese]

Right. And it's so fascinating to think of Sauron being able to do this even though he is not a legitimate user of the.

[Alan Sisto]

And that just must come down to his Power.

[Sean Marchese]

Like, it's just his pure power.

[Alan Sisto]

So what if it's straining to him? He doesn't care. You know, infinite supplies of energy.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah. So then Tolkien looks more closely at how Denethor avoided being dominated the way Saruman was, and he gives us two reasons for this. Right. The first one is that Denethor was a man of great strength and will, with it specifically being Faramir's death or his.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, air quotes. Death. Yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

His interpretation that Faramir was dying, that's what finally pushed him over the edge into despair. So, again, like you said, it's this, only mostly dead. Right, Right. But like you said, it's a true image. You know, he's seeing Faramir lying unconscious, sick, you know.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Other people have been killed by the black breath. Right. So he has every reason to think that's a permanent state.

[Sean Marchese]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

I do find this next bit interesting. Denethor is described in the text as proud. And then Tolkien immediately says, but hey, wait a minute. It's okay. All right. He's quick to explain. This isn't like just a personal pride. It's. It's a pride of his nation and his. But you can still see a little bit of that pride in there because he, you know, fate has deemed me to be the one in charge at this time. I mean, there's very much like, okay, I love my people, but I love my people because I am over them.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

If he were one of them, he wouldn't love them so much.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, that's interesting. It's like, it's not the most toxic pride, but it's not, like, totally selfless either.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. There are elements of it that are wholesome. Right. You want, as the leader of your people, you want to be proud of your country, you want to be proud,

[Sean Marchese]

you want to be patriotic, you want to believe in the strength and the wisdom of your people.

[Alan Sisto]

Absolutely. He takes a little far, but, yeah, he does.

[Sean Marchese]

And kind of bringing it back to himself and his own greatnesses. Exactly where he goes too far. But the second reason that we're told that he's able to avoid being dominated is going back to this idea of him having a right to use the stones.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that's right.

[Sean Marchese]

The Anor Stone actually belongs to him as the steward.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. I mean, sure, he'd guessed, and rightly so, that the Ithil Stone had been captured, that Sauron had it, or maybe the Witch King had it. Still, nobody good had it. But he trusted his strength and rolled the dice. Right. And that's where Tolkien says, again, not entirely unjustified. This is a guy who Tolkien is saying is strong enough and has reason to believe he could handle this. And really, for a long time he did, didn't he?

[Sean Marchese]

And he could. He really did. And it had an effect on him. But a lot of that had to do with the fact that it was Sauron that he was talking to. And again, after all of it, Sauron was not able to dominate him the way he did Saruman. Sauron had to trick him. And it was only this deception that led Denethor into this despair.

[Alan Sisto]

And that comes back to the legitimate use of the Stone. If Denethor were as illegitimate a user of the Stone as Saruman was, he would have been overwhelmed long before and gone. He would have opened the gates to Sauron. Yeah, really interesting stuff. Then we get a closer look at Tolkien's sort of speculations, if you will. He does a lot of like, oh, you know, I think this might be how it went about Denethor's use of the Stone. Never mind. He could just tell us. But.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, right. It's not. You're not the guy writing this or anything.

[Alan Sisto]

No, no.

[Sean Marchese]

But, yeah. I mean, like, he tells us that he probably just used it to gather intelligence, not looking toward Mordor, but that this would explain how he knew some things that he shouldn't have been able to know. Right. Now, Tolkien says that it's not told whether Denethor ever communicated with Saruman, but this was interesting to me. Tolkien concludes that probably he did and that those communications would have worked to Denethor's advantage.

[Alan Sisto]

That is such an interesting thing. Like, what were those conversations like? And once again, what do you mean probably? Or it's not told. You could tell us, right? That's.

[Sean Marchese]

It's your story, Professor.

[Alan Sisto]

That's the thing. But, you know, in a way, what we're reading, it's almost like his notes to himself, right? Like he's writing down, sort of thinking out loud, if you will, as he changes how he's going to frame these stones in the story. Because, of course, he does go back and rewrite elements of those two chapters like we talked about last week. But it is interesting. Like, what would those conversations have been like with Saruman?

[Sean Marchese]

And specifically to work in Denethor's advantage? Because, again, I could think of. I think we talked about this last time. The idea that maybe Saruman might have. Or maybe. I don't know if we said Saruman showed him this or Sauron showed him this, but that he had knowledge of things that were going on in the Gap of Rohan and near Orthanc. So maybe Sauron could still show him bits and pieces of, you know, Theodred being killed. And Denethor's like, oh, that's the. That's the Prince of Rohan. He's dead.

[Alan Sisto]

But let me get more pictures from Saruman. Saruman could fill that in. But Saruman's already turned to the other side.

[Sean Marchese]

He's already turned over to Sauron's side. So it's very interesting to think of the communications they might have had.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, little chat group. He's got a side chat with Saruman and then he's got the group chat.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, well, and speaking of it being a side chat, we're actually told that Sauron couldn't eavesdrop on any communication between Denethor with the Anor Stone and Saruman with the Orthanc Stone. We're told that only the Master Stone, which is now at the bottom of the river Anduin, that's the only stone that would have had that power to listen in on conversations between other pairs of stones.

[Alan Sisto]

So as long as that stone was around, it was basically a big party line, and you really kind of always had to watch yourself.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

But if these two stones are now in communication and the Master Stone is at the bottom of the river, the Ethyl Stone wouldn't be able to reach either one. They both be blank, Tolkien writes. But in my head, I'm just hearing a busy signal. The old busy signal you got with landlines. Yes, kids of the 80s.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, we remember that. Yep.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, man.

[Sean Marchese]

Oh, that was the worst back in

[Alan Sisto]

the day, wasn't it? It was awful. I had to insist. I had to tell when call waiting came out. I remember begging my mom, please, we need to get call waiting. It's like $3 a month. Can we please get call waiting?

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And of course, she would never pick up the call if it came in, but, you know, that was the only way you could stay in touch with your friends if you had a. There's no cell phones, pagers, texts.

[Sean Marchese]

There's nothing like that. None of that stuff.

[Alan Sisto]

No. But of course, Sauron's no dummy. So if he calls Saruman and the signal's busy and he goes and checks in on Denethor and the signal's busy. He knows he's talking.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, he knows they're talking to each

[Alan Sisto]

other, and then he's going to be absolutely hammering Saruman for information. That's, I think, where I'D be more worried about this not working to Denethor's advantage. The text says probably to his advantage. It must mean in that sense that he gave almost nothing to Saruman because anything he would give to Saruman, you have to assume, would have eventually gotten to Sauron.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

So he must have just passively received information.

[Sean Marchese]

And that goes back to the fact that Denethor is a shrewd statesman. You know, he was good at. He was good at statecraft and he was smart. And Saruman was a dummy wummy whose plans failed because they were bad.

[Alan Sisto]

That is absolutely right. Yeah, man. Good stuff.

[Sean Marchese]

Now, there is a really cool footnote here that I want us to read and talk about a little bit. Christopher writes an unplaced marginal note, observes that Saruman's integrity had been undermined by purely personal pride and lust for the domination of his own will. His study of the Rings had caused this. For his pride believed that he could use them or it in defiance of any other will. He, having lost any devotion to other persons or causes, was open to the domination of a superior will, to its threats and to its display of power. And moreover, he himself had no right to the Orthanc stone.

[Alan Sisto]

That's an important reminder, but I want to go back to this losing devotion to other persons or causes. Remember last week we talked about how he was interested in tools and artifacts more than people.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And the fact that there's no devotion to other persons or causes. Again, it's just a reminder of that red flag. And like, this is a weakness. This is a big vulnerability point. If that's, if that's you. If you have no devotion to other persons or causes and you are more interested in domination, pride, all that's. You are going to be vulnerable to this sort of thing, to the superior will and threats of somebody like a Sauron.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah. But yeah, it's a really interesting, really interesting observation and an important reminder about the importance of having some humility.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

You know, because again, there's always going to be these people, these Saurons out there that are going to want to appeal to your pride.

[Alan Sisto]

And that's the thing. The pride is a usual thing that we see, it's very common in Tolkien as a. As a big red flag for people. But we're also reminded that Saruman wanted to dominate others, which just comes back to the sins of Melkor. I mean, anytime you see those things pop up, heck, I would add isolation too. This is a guy who basically abandoned the White Council and did it as a free agent. You could kind of throw that in there as well. Very much.

[Sean Marchese]

Literally locked in his tower.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. It's just such a danger. And every time we see those kinds of traits being displayed by people in Middle Earth, it never leads to anything good.

[Sean Marchese]

That's true. That's very true. And we're also told here that this whole thought process came about as a result of his study of the rings. So again, you combine these corrupting factors, this pride and this isolation, or I guess these are more corruptibility factors.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, they're like vulnerability points.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, that's a good way of putting it. They're vulnerability points. You're isolated from your support network, your network of allies, only thinking about what you're trying to get out of this. And so when this corrupting influence, the study of the rings comes in, this sort of forbidden knowledge comes in, he's hooked by it, and he completely begins to lust after the rings. It's fascinating.

[Alan Sisto]

I love reading books, and that means having a great pair of eyeglasses. My prescription changes just about every year, so I'm always having to go through that hassle of getting my prescription and buying eyeglasses. But that's all different with Warby Parker, and I'm thrilled to have them sponsor the ppp as I get to tell you about how great the experience is. Buying glasses from Warby Parker. Their website and their app allow you to try on any glasses before you buy. Live in real time. You get to see tons of frames and virtually try them on without the hassle of going to a store. More than that, they've got sunglasses, contact lenses, and you can even book your eye exams directly from the app. Not only do Warby Parker's prescription glasses start at only $95, they're covered by major eye insurance plans. And you know me, folks, I love working with companies that do the right thing. And Warby Parker fits this bill. For every pair they sell, they give a pair to someone in need. They've distributed more than 20 million pairs of glasses to folks in need through their buy a pair, give a pair program. And I am happy to support that kind of work. So right now, buy one pair of glasses and get 20% off any additional [e-mail] pony that's 20% off any additional pairs when you purchase one pair at warbyparker.com pony. You've had some great ideas for a new business to build what you've been wanting to build and reach your customers. So don't wait another day to get started. Shopify makes it easy to make it happen. They've got everything you need to start selling included and ready. From day one, every business idea is fueled by your customers purchases. From the moment they're ready to buy, Shopify checkout helps more of them complete their purchase and when they come back for more, their details are ready to go. One tap, they're done getting paid. That's already solved. And because Shopify handles the behind the scenes work on setup and checkout, you have more time to focus on what you want, whether that's developing your next great product or just listening to your favorite podcasts. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world. From small businesses just getting started to household names like gymshark and Mattel, your new business is building on the same platform as some of the biggest names. Be your own boss. No dress code, no commute. Lots of time for podcasts. Make it happen with Shopify. Start your free [e-mail] pony start your free [e-mail] pony right now get up to 15% off select storage solutions put heavy duty HDX totes to good use,

[Sean Marchese]

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[Alan Sisto]

The solid impact resistant design prevents cracking and the clear base and sides make items easy to find even when the totes are stacked. Find select shelving and tote storage up to 15% off at the Home Depot. To organize every room in your home from your garage to your attic, visit homedepot.com how doers get more done. Now soon we'll get back to the considerable lore about these stones. But before we do, I want to take a minute to thank the amazing community that has grown up around this show over the past 10 plus years. After all, there is a lot more talk going on at the Prancing Pony Podcast than just us.

[Sean Marchese]

That's right, the PPP really does have a warm and welcoming listener community. If you've got questions or you just want to talk about how much you love Middle Earth, be sure to check out our Common room on Facebook and across all social media. On Facebook, just look for the Prancing Pony podcast. And yes, there's a page there. But you're going to want to join the Facebook group for that great fan community.

[Alan Sisto]

Absolutely. And on every social media platform other than Facebook, we're @prancingpony pod. You can find our subreddit @r prancingponypod. And please check out the daily Show I was telling you about earlier, today's Tolkien Times on all your favorite podcast apps. That's where you can get your daily Middle Earth fix with everything from, oh, Tolkien Tuesdays to, Third Age Thursdays. Be sure to listen wherever you get your podcasts. Sean, I'm going to have you tell us about the considerable lore. You're very good with considerable lore.

[Sean Marchese]

I am, aren't I? All right, let's do it.

[Alan Sisto]

Loremaster. Sean, take it away.

[Sean Marchese]

There must have been a considerable lore concerning the Palantiri preserved in Gondor by the kings and stewards and handed down even after use was no longer made of them. These stones were an inalienable gift to Elendil and his heirs, to whom alone they belonged by right. But this does not mean that they could only be used rightfully by one of these heirs. They could be used lawfully by anyone authorized by either the heir of a Narion or the heir of Isildur, that is, a lawful king of Gondor or Arnor. Actually, they must normally have been used by such deputies. Each stone had its own warden, one of whose duties was to survey the stone at regular intervals or when commanded or in times of need. Other persons also were appointed to visit the stones, and ministers of the crown concerned with intelligence made regular and special inspections of them, reporting the information so gained to the king in council or to the king privately, as the matter demanded in Gondor. Latterly, as the office of steward rose in importance and became hereditary, providing, as it were, a permanent understudy to the king and an immediate viceroy at need. The command and use of the stones seems mainly to have been in the hands of the stewards and the traditions concerning their nature and use to have been guarded and transmitted in their house since the stewardship had become hereditary from 1998 onwards. So the authority to use or again to depute the use of the stones was lawfully transmitted in their line and belonged, therefore, fully to Denethor.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay, so now we get a little bit more of what we were talking about before we get the actual details on that. So let's go ahead and break this down. Yeah, so let's talk about the way this section of text begins. There must have been considerable lore. All right, professor, you're the guy who created all this. Surely you could tell us what the lore actually is. But once again, that's not gonna happen.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, maybe if he had gotten to it, he might have. Who knows?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, he got pretty detailed in this chapter, as we'll see in terms of, like, just the mechanics of how this all works. But, you know, like we said last time, Tolkien's just Thinking out loud here. He's playing the role of historian and translator rather than inventor. And I love how he's playing that part, even to himself. Yeah, he's really.

[Sean Marchese]

He's really committed to the bit.

[Alan Sisto]

Thanks. Committed to the bit. That is a way to put it. Yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah. And he's arguing that even after people stopped using the stones, there would be lore about them that would have been kept and handed down by the kings, by the stewards, and handed down to their heirs, as was clearly the case with Denethor.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. We're reminded then that the stones were an inalienable gift to the faithful in Numenor. And I just want to remind you, inalienable doesn't mean that the. Just that the gift can't be taken back. It also means the gift can't be given to anyone else. It cannot be alienated from the people it was given to. It is tied exclusively to Elendil and his heirs.

[Sean Marchese]

And we're told more about this gift in of the Rings of Power in the Third Age in the Silmarillion, where we're told these stones were gifts of the Eldar to Amandil, father of Elendil, for the comfort of the faithful of Numenor in their dark days when the Elves might come no longer to that land under the shadow of Sauron.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, and just before that passage, we get a lot of information about how the stones worked, but we'll bring that back in later when we're talking about the mechanics.

[Sean Marchese]

But as their use by Saruman and Sauron suggest, we talked about this. The stones could still be used by people who weren't using it rightfully, who didn't have this authority. But only a lawful king of Gondor or Arnor or a person that they had authorized could lawfully use the stones.

[Alan Sisto]

And obviously, kings are busy people too, just like Sauron, you know, so they're not always able to use the stones. Tolkien says, look, they're typically not the ones who did. All of the stones had their own warden. What an interesting job. We now have an opening for stone warden in, you know, Osgiliath or Minas Ithil or Minasanor. Their task was to use the stone, presumably on some sort of a schedule, like a regular occurrence, whether it was daily or weekly, but then also when ordered or when, when circumstances said this would be a good time to use the stone. So they must have been given the freedom to use their own judgment in certain circumstances. But yeah, you wonder, is that like a full time job? They. They Live there next to the stone? Do they just check in on it like on Monday mornings, like as a volunteer?

[Sean Marchese]

You know what I wonder? Yeah. And is it a full time job or is it just, you know, one of. It's like I've got 10 things in my job description already and now you're adding this. Great.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. Do I get a raise along with this?

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, right. Of course he doesn't. No, no, no.

[Alan Sisto]

But it'll look great on your resume. It will.

[Sean Marchese]

It's absolutely. It's a gem for future employers. But who else is going to employ you? Because that's right. For the King of.

[Alan Sisto]

You're going to be a cpu, you know, you're going to be able to put that after your name.

[Sean Marchese]

Exactly. You know what I'm reminded of by all this, though, is the fact that Tolkien was a signals officer in World War I.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes.

[Sean Marchese]

You know, he was an officer whose job, his main job ostensibly was making sure the lines of communication were open. Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Being able to keep that. That line open from the. From the commanders that were not on the field to, you know, the. The lieutenants and majors that were leading the charge.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, right. And, you know, I mean, he was using obviously, technology that was available to him at the time. Flares and field telephones and things like that.

[Alan Sisto]

Long copper and.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, right. But, you know, you have to wonder if at some point as he's writing all this, he's thinking, man, it would be great to have one of these in the trenches.

[Alan Sisto]

Absolutely. And in that case, it would definitely need to be only authorized personnel. You don't want some private to just grab it and be able to start sending a message to his mom like, we're busy here. We need to use these to keep people alive.

[Sean Marchese]

For official use only.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Interesting.

[Sean Marchese]

So we're told that others might be tasked with using the stones, especially those who were in charge of intelligence, and they would receive the news and then report it up the chain. Right, right.

[Alan Sisto]

The text tells us they'd report it to the king and council or to the king privately, as the matter demanded. I have to say, I sort of got a little twitch when I read this. Like, wait a minute, what would require one as opposed to the other? The way I read that is it's sort of like the default is to the king and council, but sometimes that's

[Sean Marchese]

how I. Yeah, but then what would

[Alan Sisto]

it require to be a communication privately to the King? I mean, I guess it's a private message to the king.

[Sean Marchese]

It is a private Matter for the king, I guess. Or maybe something involving treachery on the part of the council.

[Alan Sisto]

Treachery on the council member? Yeah, I hadn't thought about that.

[Sean Marchese]

Something like that.

[Alan Sisto]

I was thinking, you know, DMs that doesn't want anybody to know about King Tyrannon is like, man, you do not know what it's like living with Bruthial.

[Sean Marchese]

Hey, look, they're still married. And it's not justified, all right?

[Alan Sisto]

Nope, it's not.

[Sean Marchese]

You can't. No, no, I know, but can you imagine that the thought of that is really.

[Alan Sisto]

It's pretty funny.

[Sean Marchese]

Just a little funny.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, you know, it end up getting screenshotted and put on, you know, all

[Sean Marchese]

the social media channels. He's the kid, you know, it absolutely. This big scandal. Yeah, it's horrible.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, more recently in Gondor, as the position of the steward became more prominent, and this is going to be an interesting little sidebar, responsibility for the stones fell more into the hands of the stewards. That makes sense. They're the right hand, man of the kings.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, yeah. This is kind of like for Game of Thrones fans, this is kind of like the hand of the king, you know, the one who's doing a lot of the administrative work right now. As for when this would have started, the office of steward, we're told, was created by Romendichil I and he reigned from 492 to 541.

[Alan Sisto]

It was pretty low key office then, wasn't it?

[Sean Marchese]

It was pretty low key. And it wasn't until the steward to King Minardil and that steward's name was Hurin of Amyn Arnen. That's the point at which the stewardship began unofficially to be hereditary. And that would have been sometime around 1630. So it's more than a thousand years after the office is established.

[Alan Sisto]

And that's also when the office becomes a little more significant, a little more powerful. But it was still even later than that during the time of Pelendur, who was the steward to King Ondaher. In fact, Pelendur briefly ruled Gondor in 1944 between Andeher's death, well, the death of Andher and both his sons before the council chose to crown Earnil. That's the time, not in 1944, but later, actually 1998, that the office of Stuart officially became hereditary. And the footnote to this passage points us to that moment in appendix A1 on the stewards for the line. After the days of Pelendur, the stewardship became Hereditary as a kingship from father to son or nearest kin.

[Sean Marchese]

Right. So if we're talking about sort of the rise to prominence of the office of Steward and the hereditary nature of the office, then we're definitely talking somewhere in that 1630-1988 range.

[Alan Sisto]

So the House of the Stewards, that's where the traditions and lore, and presumably instruction manuals and warranty cards and all the extra adapters and plugs that nobody ever uses, that's where those were all kept.

[Sean Marchese]

They've got a really deep drawer with all that stuff in it.

[Alan Sisto]

They do. They've got a junk drawer in the House of the Stewards.

[Sean Marchese]

Dad, where's the phone number for Palantir Care?

[Alan Sisto]

Is the extended warranty still valid? I don't know. It's only been 400 years. I think we got the 500 year version.

[Sean Marchese]

I think we might have forgotten to renew it about 378 years ago.

[Alan Sisto]

But anyway, the whole point is that the House of the Stewards is where this all was. And that's why Denethor, coming back full circle, had the legal authority to use the stones. He was, of course, a direct descendant of Pelendur.

[Sean Marchese]

Now, before we move on to the last paragraph in this section, which we skipped in the reading, there's a footnote here that goes into great detail about how this was actually different in Arnor. Everything we're talking about is specific to Gondor here.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Now, it's a long footnote footnote, though, and it doesn't actually connect to Denethor's use of the stone or what Gandalf's thinking. So we're going to talk about that in the postscript for these two episodes. But for now let's go ahead and move on to the last paragraph in this section, which we didn't read. There, Tolkien gets further into the legal intricacies of the use of the stone, specifically by Aragorn, first pointing out the general rule, right, that an heir of Elendil, which, which Tolkien very specifically, narrowly defines here as a recognized descendant occupying a throne or lordship in the Numenorean realms by virtue of this descent has a right to use any of the stones, and that that right exists over and above the deputed authority of a steward.

[Sean Marchese]

In other words, even though Denethor has the legal right to use the Anor stone as a steward, Aragorn or any other heir of Elendil as defined above, could actually claim the right to use it and take it back from the Steward.

[Alan Sisto]

That's Fascinating.

[Sean Marchese]

It is. And it's interesting that we get this very tight definition of ere of Elendil. It has to be not just somebody who's in direct line, but somebody who actually occupies a throne or lordship.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes. And by virtue of that descent, like let's say you were the king of some other realm that had nothing to do with Gondor. So you do occupy a throne or lordship, but you're also a descendant of, you know, Isildura or Anarion. Nope, sorry. It's got to be one of these realms and you've got to have it because of your descent from Isildur.

[Sean Marchese]

So if you've got a king of Rohan or something like that who can trace his lineage. Yeah, yeah. Which, which we know did happen. There was some Gondorian blood in some of the. Some of the monarchs of Rohan. But they would not be able to use this even if they can trace it back their lineage back to Elendil because they're not a lord of the Numenorean realms.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, exactly. So it's a multiple stage definition. It also isn't just a recognized descendant. So Aragorn technically doesn't have the right until he is occupying a throne or lordship. You could make the argument that he is holding a lordship because he's the chieftain of the North. That probably would work, but it's not a realm.

[Sean Marchese]

Well, we get into that a little bit with the next passage, don't we?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I guess I'll have to hold off on that. I'm thinking of more like. Like when I was going through the disaster, the Gladden fields and Isildur's many sons die at the Gladden fields. Only the eldest would have been. And even then he wouldn't have counted until Isildur died.

[Sean Marchese]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that's the thing. Like you can't just be a recognized descendant. You have to be a descendant who's currently on the throne.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah. You have to be the senior heir in that lineage.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, exactly.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Actively on a throne. It is interesting.

[Sean Marchese]

And also recall that the inalienable gift was for Elendil and his heirs, not the Stewards.

[Alan Sisto]

That exposes superior. Right. Yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

Right. So Aragorn or whoever the heir of Elendil is or the heir of Isildur can alienate that right from the Steward if they want to.

[Alan Sisto]

Correct. Because it isn't actually a right. Or I shouldn't say it's not a right. It's not the gift. It's not the inalienable gift.

[Sean Marchese]

Right. It's deputed authority.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. And that can Be taken at any time. It's really interesting stuff.

[Sean Marchese]

It is.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, like you said, we are going to get into Aragorn specifically. So that's the general rule. As background, Tolkien moves into the question of Aragorn, who exercised the legal right as an heir of Elendil to take the Orthanc Stone.

[Sean Marchese]

And we're given two reasons for that. The first is that the stone is now without owner or warden. But I'm not really convinced that that would matter anyway. Because his right is superior.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, exactly. Even if there is a warden. But the second reason, and this gets back to the question, oh, you know what? He's not actually on the throne. This is an important distinction. Tolkien says he is de jure, the rightful king of both realms and therefore could take back all the stones from anyone. He has the superior claim on both possession and use. Quick, Latin aside something from my law days that I'll remember, de jure is a Latin phrase that means by law or according to law. And it is usually used in contrast with de facto, which means in fact. And that's how I got things mixed up.

[Sean Marchese]

Right, so. Right, exactly. So de jure is how things should be according to the law, whereas de facto is how things actually are in the real world. And so, going back to what we were just talking about a moment ago, Aragorn is not yet the de facto king of Arnor and Gondor because he's not actually sitting on the throne. He's not actually wielding that power, but he is, by law, the king of both of those realms.

[Alan Sisto]

Absolutely.

[Sean Marchese]

And that's exactly what de jure means, is by law. And so that's. So that's why he's got the authority, even though he doesn't actually have the temporal power, the throne.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, it is really interesting. It actually brings me back to sort of the various claims on the throne. I'm thinking of Arvedui's claim, where he's saying that he should. But of course, he would already been the rightful king of Arnor. Arnor wasn't Arnor anymore. It was just Arthedain. But because of that, he's still an heir of Elendil by that definition. Right. Because he is of that line. And he's occupying a lordship in the Numenorean realms by virtue of that descent. So he would still have authority over the Northern stones. But, yeah, that whole idea of the way it's supposed to be, but the way it actually is is the distinction. And Tolkien's saying as long as it's the way it ought to be. Even if it's not in practicality, that way, he still has the superior. Right. So. Yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

And that's what reminds you that this. The mechanism for all of this is. Is magical.

[Alan Sisto]

It really is.

[Sean Marchese]

We don't know exactly what it is, but it has to do with just what is right, what is fitting, what,

[Alan Sisto]

you know, that's so Tolkien.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Alan Sisto]

Magic that just knows what's right.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, you know, it kind of fits with, you know, everything that Tolkien has written about this world that, you know, look, there are authorities in charge of this world. We have Valar, we have Iluvatar, we have. We have these powers that do make sure that, you know, they take an interest in what happens, and they do sometimes put their finger on the scale a little bit.

[Alan Sisto]

A little bit. Or they flick a little Smeagol off the edge of a cliff.

[Sean Marchese]

Flick a little Smeagol into some lava. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Like the paper football we used to play in middle school, you know, where you'd fold a little.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, fold it into the little triangle.

[Alan Sisto]

Into the triangle and then, like, try to kick the field goal.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah. Yep.

[Alan Sisto]

It's good. Yay.

[Sean Marchese]

That's when you always got in trouble in class, because you do that and then. Exactly. I know the teacher's like, what are you doing back there?

[Alan Sisto]

Nothing. Nothing. I don't know.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Anyway.

[Sean Marchese]

All right, well, let's get back into a little bit more of the lore of the stones. Alan, you've got the next passage.

[Alan Sisto]

I do, indeed. The lore of the stones is now forgotten, mostly because I didn't write it down. Professor says sorry for my aside.

[Sean Marchese]

Mostly because Mick and Keith don't want it all to get out.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I was waiting for a good Rolling Stones joke. You nailed it. That's the perfect one right there. The lore of the stones is now forgotten.

[Sean Marchese]

There's all kinds of lore that hasn't been forgotten.

[Alan Sisto]

Keith and Mick have probably forgotten most of it by now.

[Sean Marchese]

They probably have, yeah. Anyway, please continue.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm never going to be able to hear that phrase again. Thank you, sir. Brilliantly played. The lore of the stones is now forgotten and can only be partly recovered by conjecture and from things recorded about them. They were perfect spheres appearing when at rest to be made of solid glass or crystal deep black in hue. At smallest, they were about a foot in diameter. But some, certainly the stones of Osgiliath and Amon Sul were much larger and could not be lifted by one man. Originally, they were placed in sites suitable to their sizes and intended uses. Standing on low round tables of black marble in a central cup or depression in which they could at need be revolved by hand. They were very heavy, but perfectly smooth and would suffer no damage if by accident or malice they were unseated and rolled off their tables. They were indeed unbreakable by any violence then controlled by men, though some believed that great heat such as that of Aradruin might shatter them and surmised that this had been the fate of the Ithilstone in the fall of Barad Dur. Though without any external markings of any kind, they had permanent poles and were originally so placed in their sights that they stood upright. Their diameters from pole to pole pointed to the earth's center, but the permanent nether pole must then be at the bottom. The faces along the circumference in this position were the viewing faces, receiving the visions from the outside, but transmitting them to the eye of a surveyor upon the far side. A surveyor, therefore, who wished to look west, would place himself on the east side of the stone and if he wished to shift his vision northward, must move to his left southward. But the minor stones, those of Orthanc, Ithil and Anor and probably Annuminate, had also fixed orientation in their original situation, so that, for example, their west face would only look west and turned in other directions was blank. If a stone became unseated or disturbed, it could be reset by observation and it was then useful to revolve it. But when removed and cast down, as was the Orthanc stone, it was not so easy to set right. So it was by chance, as men call it, as Gandalf would have said, that Peregrine fumbling with the stone must have set it on the ground more or less upright and sitting westward of it, have had the fixed east looking face in the proper position. The major stones were not so fixed. Their circumference could be revolved and they could still see in any direction.

[Sean Marchese]

Oh, man. Well, details. We finally get into some real technical nitty gritty details.

[Alan Sisto]

I love this.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, yeah. How you use the stones, what they can do, what they can't do. So let's dig in. We are reminded at the very start that this information is still partial. It's still based on conjecture, but still it's what we've got. So we're going to dive into these technical details we've got.

[Alan Sisto]

That's absolutely right. And the first thing we're told is that they are perfect spheres of something that appears to be either glass or some sort of crystal, but it's deep Black in hue. I have no theory as to the material. I mean, glass. I think the reason it looks like glass is because it's probably glass.

[Sean Marchese]

I mean, maybe. I mean, it's not. It can't be obsidian because obsidian is brittle.

[Alan Sisto]

It is. And probably not perfectly smooth. It would be easy to chip if it fell off the table. Shatter.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, Right. So if you're thinking, oh, you know, that's the first thing most people are going to think of. Oh, obsidian, black glass. But no, no. So I don't know. It's. I got nothing. I know we need a chemist or somebody, a geologist to give us some ideas on what.

[Alan Sisto]

Please reach out and talk to us. Yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

Size wise, though, we know that the smallest are about a foot in diameter. But some of them, like the big ones at Askiliath and Amon Sul, they're described as much larger and they're not able to be lifted by one man.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, but if you think I'm gonna let that go without more folks, you were wrong. You've been on this show long enough.

[Sean Marchese]

Oh, no, no. What are you gonna do?

[Alan Sisto]

You know, we talked about, like, how many decibels Boromir's horn must have been for it to be heard in Minas Terrace. We talked about, you know, all the science.

[Sean Marchese]

You're gonna go all Bill Nye on us now?

[Alan Sisto]

I'm gonna go some Bill Nye here. We gotta. We gotta start somewhere. Let's. Let's assume just for the sake of this discussion, that it is glass. Glass. Glass has a typical density of around 2 and a half grams per cubic centimeter. So that's when we just have to determine the volume of a sphere. Right. Volume of a sphere is V equals 4 over 3 PI radius cubed. Right times PI times.

[Sean Marchese]

Okay, I kind of remember that from high school.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah, high school physics. So if you've got a small sphere, let's say it's about the size of a softball, which is 10 centimeters. And by the way I looked, there isn't a sports ball that is 12 inches in diameter. The biggest one is a basketball, and it's nine and a little less than nine and a half inches. So you're talking about something that's about an inch larger on either side than a basketball. Than a basketball to get to be 12 inches.

[Sean Marchese]

So.

[Alan Sisto]

But let's go back to that small sphere, the size of a softball, only 10 centimeters. And you're talking about something you could hold in your hand. You would end up with a volume that's about 523 cubic centimeters, that would give you a weight of 1.3 kilograms, a little less than three pounds.

[Sean Marchese]

So a glass ball the size of a softball weighs about three pounds exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

So, I mean, it's manageable. You're like, okay, it's dense, that's heavy. But you know, I mean, I'm not going to be able to throw it 90 miles an hour, but, you know, that's okay.

[Sean Marchese]

Right?

[Alan Sisto]

But a glass ball that's a foot in diameter, I got to tell you, that's a lot heavier than you think. I mean, you're like, okay, this one is only three pounds. How heavy is that basketball sized one or that 12 inch one? Let's say if it's a foot in diameter at 12 inches, that's 30 centimeters. So it's three times the diameter. But that means you're talking about a stone weighing 37 kilograms, which is about 82 pounds.

[Sean Marchese]

That's a heavy, heavy ball.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, I can deadlift quite a bit more than that, right? I mean, I could probably, I don't know about these days. My back's maybe, Maybe I'm around 200 pounds on a deadlift, but I think I was around 260 at my max. I could do a farmer's carry with like 60 pound dumbbells in each hand, but those are things that are meant to be lifted, meant to be carried. They have handles, they have bars.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, this isn't a kettlebell. There's no, there's no big handle on that.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. So you're talking about a smooth ball with, with no handles that weighs 80 plus pounds. I don't think the average guy's gonna be able to lift that. And the weight skyrockets in a big, big hurry. I mean, if you bump that 12 inch one to say 16 inches, it's not all that much bigger, right? Okay, you're talking about 2 inches more on either side for us. You more than double the volume. The weight's gonna be more than 200 pounds for a 16 inch palantir. Now, it's not gonna have to become very big at all for one man to simply be unable to lift it. I doubt many men, even the Gondorians of Numenorean descent, could lift a glass ball that size. Not because they're not strong. I mean, my first thought is like the Atlas stones that the strongman competitions use, they're big round rocks, but they're rocks. You can grip it. You can grip it by the husk.

[Sean Marchese]

It's not a question of where he grips it. So the question of Weight ratios.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. And those things get really heavy. I mean, I think some of the heavier, heaviest ones they lift are close to £400, but.

[Sean Marchese]

Wow.

[Alan Sisto]

But you can grip it. You can't grip this.

[Sean Marchese]

This is a smooth glass ball. Smooth crystal ball.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. And the thing is, even if we look at other crystal materials, I kind of tried to look at the various densities of materials. Diamond is much heavier. Right. That's three and a half grams per cubic centimeter. 40% denser. Fluorite is a little lighter than diamond, but it's still heavier than glass. So let's say that Feanor managed to create polycarbonate. Right. Acrylic. It's the lightest thing that looks like glass. That has a density that's a little less than half the weight of glass. 1.2 grams per cubic centimeter. But a polycarbonate sphere, 16 inches would still weigh 100 pounds. I mean, it would need to be about 20 inches to weigh 200. But the point is, it's going to be really hard for one man to lift a smooth, round object that's £80, £100, let alone £200.

[Sean Marchese]

It's crazy, right? That's not the only thing that's crazy around here, but thank you, I guess, for going into all that.

[Alan Sisto]

Did you listen to the episode? I think dawn was with me on this one when we did the sidebar on the size of the stone of the wreck.

[Sean Marchese]

Oh, yes. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And how much that would weigh.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, that was fun. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Never again.

[Sean Marchese]

No, I mean, it wouldn't be you if you didn't go into that.

[Alan Sisto]

That's true.

[Sean Marchese]

That's amazing, though, because it's misleading. You think, oh, it must be really big. Right? Like three feet across.

[Alan Sisto]

No, it wouldn't have to be that big. I promise.

[Sean Marchese]

It doesn't have to be that big at all. Yeah. Foot and a half.

[Alan Sisto]

Foot and a half. It's going to be. I mean, my goodness, if 16 inches, I'd have to do the math.

[Sean Marchese]

But 16 inches is nearly 200 pounds, I'm sure. A foot and a half is probably close to 300, I'm guessing.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, at least 260, 270. It's huge. And again, sure, a strong person can deadlift that, but only if it's a bar and you can grip it.

[Sean Marchese]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Good luck gripping this smooth, flawless sphere. Yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

Right. It's going to be tough. And that's why they're put in places that make sense, because you can't move them around easily. No. So they typically have A dedicated spot, sort of a low table with some sort of a, you know, a recessed space in it so that it can sit in the bowl and be turned and things like that.

[Alan Sisto]

Did you put a coaster underneath it?

[Sean Marchese]

I hope so. Those things drip, depending on who's on the other end.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, and if it's really cold, it's going to have condensation. It's going to.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, right. Yeah. As you pointed out, they're described here as very heavy but perfectly smooth. So, yeah, assuming that Feanor did not invent polycarbonate, they must have been very heavy indeed.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Now, unlike glass, and certainly unlike, say, obsidian, they wouldn't break, chip or flake if they fell off the table or even. And I thought this was interesting, if by accident or malice. So even if they were pushed off, they're not damaged.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, yeah. I'm imagining, you know, the. The steward's kid running through there and just, like, pushing it off the. Because, you know, that happened.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, you know it did. That's right. I'm the heir. I can.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, exactly. But speaking of these things in gravity, remember the moment that we first encountered the Palantir in Lord of the Rings? Here's what it says in the text. At that moment, a heavy shining thing came hurtling down from above. It glanced off the iron rail even as Saruman left it, and passing close to Gandalf's head, it smote the stair on which he stood. The rail rang and snapped. The stair cracked and splintered in glittering sparks. But the ball was unharmed. It rolled on down the steps, a globe of crystal, dark but glowing with a heart of fire.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, my goodness.

[Sean Marchese]

So very hard. Yeah. Breaks everything that it hits on the way.

[Alan Sisto]

Breaks the stair and there's not a flaw on it.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, yeah. And Tolkien clarifies they are actually completely indestructible using any force available to men at this time.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

So, I don't know.

[Alan Sisto]

C4, at least. Dynamite. I mean, I don't know. Something. You gotta try it.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, it's worth a shot. Stick it to the side of the ball.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. Well, you know, you get those claymores, right. Those are already sort of shaped that way. The shape charges.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, that's true. Yeah. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

You could. You could shape them the opposite direction and.

[Sean Marchese]

And try to say. Aren't those. Aren't those shapes. Yeah, yeah. The.

[Alan Sisto]

The convex side is on the. The outside. Yeah. Or is the explosive side. So Tolkien then gets to one of these some say, moments. So, you know, we're going to take it as. As accurate. Right, That's. That's what we do. Great heat could destroy them. Okay, that makes sense. That was almost certainly what happened to the captured Ithilstone when Barad Dur fell. Glass again. I know we're making assumptions. It's something like glass. Glass melts around 2600-2900 degrees, which is actually because I looked it up. Hotter than the typical temperature of basaltic magma. Still, if it was exposed to that level of heat, if we're talking about an eruption, it would just become a soft, squishy lump. It's sort of. It's sort of just this mushy thing. But we're not talking about that kind of heat. We're talking about the conversion of kinetic energy to thermal energy. So the entire weight of the Baradur collapsing is surely going to do the job. I mean, there's zero question in terms of how many mega joules it would take to. To shatter this thing.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah. I know that I can be hypocritical at times. And I say this. I say this with all the love in the world.

[Alan Sisto]

I bet you do.

[Sean Marchese]

You are a nerd.

[Alan Sisto]

Why, thank you, sir.

[Sean Marchese]

You are a big old nerd.

[Alan Sisto]

I sure am.

[Sean Marchese]

No, I'm kidding. I actually think it's really cool because I just can't. I can't do science anymore.

[Alan Sisto]

I love researching this stuff. I don't remember any of this.

[Sean Marchese]

I'm in awe of you doing this. Languages, man. Languages make sense to me. But you're talking science. And I was good at physics once upon a time. Yeah. Like in high school, I was a really good physics student. I was a really good math student. Not anymore. No, it's. It's really cool, actually. I think it's really cool. I mean, it's just giving you a hard time because it's fun.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

And because I can't do it. So I'm.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, you know, literally, I'm learning.

[Sean Marchese]

Rather than giving you a compliment for how smart and impressive it is, I'm going to make fun of you.

[Alan Sisto]

That works. That works for me. It's what I do when I'm. You know.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah. Anyway, so. Wow. With the Prancing Pony podcast Science Corner finished, and the indestructibility and the material and all the size and the weight and all that stuff out of the way, let's talk about using the stones. Right. The mechanism of the stones themselves. Tolkien tells us that even though there are no calibration markings, so there's no external way of knowing which side is up. There's no this side up.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm looking for the rune that says this side up.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, right. Yeah. But they do actually have permanent poles. There is an up, there's a down.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. And you better get it right.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, you better get it right. But there's no external way of knowing it. So, again, I have to believe this probably comes with that authority. You probably. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Easier to calibrate it if you're.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

So they are, of course, then mounted in those specialized recessed tables that we talked about in such a way that the pole points up. Not said here, then, is how important it is that people use the stone, only rotating it on that axis. You start spinning this thing like a track ball, and it's gonna be, don't

[Sean Marchese]

roll it that way.

[Alan Sisto]

Don't roll it that way. I gotta recalibrate the stone again.

[Sean Marchese]

The stone wardens running in the room like, no, sire, don't turn it that way.

[Alan Sisto]

You're like, well, let me just zoom in.

[Sean Marchese]

Right. No, no, don't take the stone.

[Alan Sisto]

You'll kill yourself.

[Sean Marchese]

Took us seven months to get it calibrated the right way, and now we've got to do it all over again.

[Alan Sisto]

Gotta have Best Buy come out and do the calibration again.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah. Geek Squad. Geek Squad's coming out.

[Alan Sisto]

Bring their kit, A little projector.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah. But, yeah, once you got the poles in place, the up is up, the down is down, then the stone actually has viewing faces. And the users of the stones would stand looking in the direction that they wanted to look. So you want to find out some news from the west. Well, then you're gonna stand on the east side of the stone and you're gonna look at the stone towards the west.

[Alan Sisto]

And that makes sense. I mean, can you imagine doing it the other way around? Wouldn't make any sense at all. I mean, you are looking the direction you want to look. You're just standing with the stone between you and where you wanna look.

[Sean Marchese]

So there's an optical effect of some kind to this.

[Alan Sisto]

It makes sense. It's receiving something from the west side. You're standing on the east side, and it's beaming that image to you.

[Sean Marchese]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

But interestingly, and this really is interesting, because these are the stones we're dealing with, these alleged minor stones. So that's all of them except Osgiliath and Amon Sul and Illustria. But that's an exception to everything else anyway.

[Sean Marchese]

Right? Of course. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

All of these other stones are fixed in their orientation. To me, this feels a little confusing. Like, does that mean that a user moved around the fixed stone? I mean, I don't think so. The text makes it sound like it only had one way that it looked.

[Sean Marchese]

So not only is there an up and a down, but there's a side that's supposed to point towards the west. And if it's not pointing towards the west, that's the only side that works.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, there's one side. There's only one face that works. So did they rotate the stone if they wanted to look elsewhere or did they move themselves? I guess the text makes it suggest they really couldn't look anywhere else but that direction. So.

[Sean Marchese]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

But the other stones could.

[Sean Marchese]

Right, right, right. But following onto that, these. These minor stones that had these fixed viewpoints, they would actually then have to be recalibrated if they fell out of their recesses. And we're told at that point it was then useful to revolve it.

[Alan Sisto]

You were pretty much.

[Sean Marchese]

You're frantically spinning it, trying to get it recalibrated.

[Alan Sisto]

It's like those days when you had rabbit ears on your tail television. And you're just trying.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

Just a little bit more.

[Sean Marchese]

Just.

[Alan Sisto]

Right, I need a piece of foil.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, yeah. And then you take two steps away and suddenly you lose the picture again.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah. So, yeah, so you're turning the stone to recalibrate it, but then once you get it recalibrated, then you don't move it. You move yourself around the stone to see in different directions. That.

[Alan Sisto]

That makes sense. Now, as an aside to all of this complication, it's clear Pippin was incredibly lucky, or I suppose really unlucky, as the case may be, to have managed to set the stone on the ground in such a way that not only was the pole facing up, but he was sitting on the west side of the stone looking east.

[Sean Marchese]

I mean, what are the odds, right? I mean, is this, like. Is this a little moment of Eucatastrophe here? A little bit of spabimmy maybe. You know, there's the improbability of Pippin being able to pick this thing up because, you know, he's just. He's a curious hobbit, he is. He doesn't know what this thing is. If he picks it up and he just sees blackness, he probably looks at it for five seconds. Is like, okay, this is neat. Put it down.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, exactly.

[Sean Marchese]

But the fact that he picks it up and he's facing the right way to look in the direction towards Sauron, that he looks. It does seem providential, doesn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Sean Marchese]

And though you said lucky or unlucky, but, I mean, it does end up being lucky, doesn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

That's absolutely right. Because it was only the revelation at Dol Baran that changed things. Right. That was what, in fact revealed that link. We read that last week. The line was specifically, it needed the demonstration on Dol Baran of the effects of the Orthanc Stone on Peregrine to reveal suddenly that the link between Isengard and Barad Dur seemed to exist after it was discovered that forces of Isengard had been joined with Sauron's Orcs. Was in fact the Orthanc Stone and one other palantir that's central. And then obviously Aragorn's use of the stone is what lays the foundation for him being able to distract Sauron long enough for Frodo and Sam to sneak in to Mordor and to get the Ring. I mean, wow. If Pippin doesn't get lucky here.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Everything else may fall.

[Sean Marchese]

It does end up being lucky. Yep.

[Alan Sisto]

Wow.

[Sean Marchese]

You're right.

[Alan Sisto]

Not so much for him, but for everybody else.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah. No, it works out, though.

[Alan Sisto]

It sure does. Very much a SPIBIMI moment. As we talked about, for those who are new to the show, SPIBIMI is an acronym that we coined very early on. Stands for Shall Prove, but Mine Instrument. It's a quote from Ina Lindele and it is essentially a reference to the idea that even when bad things happen, good is made to come out of it. Right. Iluvatar himself telling Melkor, you're just going to be my tool, man. You think you've got all this on your own? Ha. I'm going to turn that around and make good things so.

[Sean Marchese]

Yep, absolutely.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, of course, we get the answer to our confusion for the fixed stones, those minor stones that include, of course, all the ones we're talking about Sauron's Stone, Minas Ithil, Denethor Stone, the Anor Stone and Sauron's Orthanc Stone. Probably a numinous. But does that matter now? You didn't rotate them at all. You simply walked around the stone.

[Sean Marchese]

That's right. But that's just those stones. The other ones, Osgiliath and Aman Sul, they could actually be revolved so that they could see wherever you wanted to see.

[Alan Sisto]

Those were the killer ones. Those are the ones where you could just absolutely see anything and everything.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Which is really a shame that the Osgilia Stone is at the bottom of the river.

[Sean Marchese]

I know it is now, despite everything that we just discussed. Interestingly, Christopher Tolkien tells us in a footnote here that a later detached note says that the stones didn't have poles or orientation.

[Alan Sisto]

Thanks for confusing us.

[Sean Marchese]

So all of that stuff we just discussed. But later on maybe not. However, that later detached note doesn't explain how they do work. There's no alternate specifications or technical details given. It's just. No, they didn't have that, so we don't have anything to compare it to. It's just maybe Tolkien later on decided otherwise.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Christopher does go at more depth into that later detached note that we'll talk about later. This episode is brought to you by Facebook. So you were scrolling on Marketplace and there it was, the bike you'd been searching for. You sent a message and it turned out the seller was super chatty, kind of funny, and an avid cyclist. The next thing you know, you're in a cycling crew. Well, a community cycling group. The thing about Facebook is you might find more than what you're looking for, from a browse to a bike ride this summer. Find more on Facebook. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Listening to this podcast instead of doomscrolling Smart Move. Another smart move getting help from one of State Farm's 19,000 local agents when you choose to bundle home and auto bundling. Just another way to save with the personal price plan. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state. Tomorrow morning is knocking. Stock your fridge now. How about a Creamy Mocha Frappuccino drink? Or a sweet vanilla smooth caramel maybe? Or white chocolate Mocha? Whichever you choose, delicious coffee awaits. Find Starbucks Frappuccino drinks wherever you buy your groceries.

[Sean Marchese]

Now we told you about the amazing PPP community after our earlier break. If you're a part of that community and you want to enjoy something even more special, come join the Fellowship of the Podcast on Patreon. You get to be in the best discord community around. It's one that includes host hangouts and even live episode recordings.

[Alan Sisto]

And your support there is what enables me to continue working full time doing all of the shows, the ppp, Today's Tolkien Times, Rings of Power Wrap up, and my streaming show the PPP He Plays. When you join, you can get episode postscripts, add free episodes, free merch and more.

[Sean Marchese]

And you can join our questions after Nightfall episodes or even appear as a guest in the north wing. Go to patreon.com prancingponypod to show your support and join the Fellowship of the Podcast.

[Alan Sisto]

And don't forget to rate and review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And please recommend us to your friends. Something you can do directly on Spotify now. Well, Sean, it just gets more confusing. I love this though. We really get into the nitty gritty here, so take us away with the next reading.

[Sean Marchese]

This one's a short one Alone the Palantiri could only see. They did not transmit sound. Ungoverned by a directing mind, they were wayward and their visions were apparently at least haphazard. From a high place, their westward face, for instance, would look to vast distance, its vision blurred and distorted to either side and above and below, and its foreground obscured by things behind, receding in ever diminishing clarity. Also, what they saw was directed or hindered by chance, by darkness or by shrouding see below. The vision of the Palantiri was not blinded or occluded by physical obstacles, but only by darkness. So they could look through a mountain as they could look through a patch of darker shadow, but see nothing within that did not receive some light. They could see through walls, but see nothing within rooms, caves or vaults, unless some light fell on it, and they could not themselves provide or project light. It was possible to guard against their sight by the process called shrouding, by which certain things or areas would be seen in a stone only as a shadow or deep mist. How this was done by those aware of the stones and the possibility of being watched by them, is one of the lost mysteries of the Palantiri.

[Alan Sisto]

Dang it. Just more lost mysteries. Thank you, Professor.

[Sean Marchese]

Thanks a lot, Professor.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, tell us about. Really cool.

[Sean Marchese]

Never going to know. Yep.

[Alan Sisto]

But it's a lost mystery. So we begin with Tolkien reiterating something that we learned last week. The Stones transmit vision, but not sound. So these are sort of. Well, I think I called them a couple of weeks ago, the silent movie version of FaceTime, which.

[Sean Marchese]

Which is weird, but. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, more than that. If they were left on their own, the visions were haphazard. They had to be governed by somebody, which. Which begs the question, were these Things like broadcasting 247 but only useful when governed? Or do they play the national anthem at two in the morning and go to static?

[Sean Marchese]

And then they go to static.

[Alan Sisto]

Nobody under 35 knows what we're talking about.

[Sean Marchese]

Right. They're like, what? Yeah, I know. We're so old. It's an interesting question. Yeah, it does seem like they probably were broadcasting something 24 7. It's just maybe like, if you're not looking at them, then you're not going to see what they're broadcasting. But if you were to.

[Alan Sisto]

And if you're untrained, you wouldn't know what you were seeing.

[Sean Marchese]

You might just look up and you might just look at them and see some random images. But if you know what you're doing and you can govern it, then you can actually focus it on what you want to see. Because. Yeah, I mean, think about it. They're looking in a particular. Depending on where you're standing. Rather, you're standing somewhere and you're. You can see in a particular direction based on where you're standing. But there's, you know, thousands of things in your line of sight. You're not counting the curvature of the earth, I guess.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, I think this gets around that. I'll grant that.

[Sean Marchese]

It must. It has to. It has to. It has to. Because you're seeing things far away in

[Alan Sisto]

that you're not really using vision here. This isn't light waves.

[Sean Marchese]

This is true.

[Alan Sisto]

This isn't Legolas. And what are your Elfis? See where the rays of light actually bend? They don't. This isn't using physical light.

[Sean Marchese]

This isn't a pure optical effect. This is. But it is looking in that direction.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

And it is limited to that. Yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

Fascinating.

[Alan Sisto]

It really is. Now I'm thinking, okay, they're broadcasting all the time, and if you can't. Like, most of us would turn it on and it would be like back in the days when you had cable but you didn't pay for HBO and it was just scrambled.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

You could kind of hear the audio, but you just got the weird. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what people get because of no audio.

[Sean Marchese]

You're just seeing squiggles with no sound.

[Alan Sisto]

Totally squeaky.

[Sean Marchese]

So you don't even know what you're watching. So we get some more specific limitations here, starting with some of the visual effects of things. There's some blurring, there's a little bit of distortion off axis and what sounds like kind of a weird depth of field effect, Right?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, this idea that the foreground and the background and the blurring and the.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah. The next limitation, though, is more significant and that takes up the rest of this sort of discussion point we've got here.

[Alan Sisto]

So while the ability of the stones to see things wasn't stopped by physical objects, right? Walls, buildings, mountains, even forests, objects that were actually in darkness were not visible. They could see through darkness, that is, they could see past it or beyond it. Again, because they're not just using light rays, they're sort of like casting vision some other place so they can see past it.

[Sean Marchese]

That's right. So, yeah. So I guess in other words, they were like passive recipients of vision.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

They're not carrying a light source. They're not illuminating anything.

[Alan Sisto]

No, no.

[Sean Marchese]

Across the miles here. And the text doesn't connect this limitation on there needing to be light on the object to see it. It doesn't connect that with this thing called shrouding. But it moves so into that that I have to think that these are connected.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I think so. And apparently, if you are worried about a stone seeing you, which there's not very many people that would worry about it because you'd have to know the stones exist.

[Sean Marchese]

Right, True.

[Alan Sisto]

But if you are worried about that, you would protect against it by something that the text mysteriously refers to as shrouding. And when this happened, a stone would see the area just as a shadow or miss. No details, nothing clear.

[Sean Marchese]

But then Tolkien ends this brief mention of shrouding with the explanation that how to shroud we have no idea. It's just this lost mystery of the stones.

[Alan Sisto]

It's so interesting. Like what? How would you even know you were being looked at by these stones?

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I guess maybe when there was a warden of the stones and they knew how to do this, maybe that's true.

[Alan Sisto]

They were looking more often.

[Sean Marchese]

If the stone is in a council room or something, something like that, maybe you would shroud it before you had a meeting or something like that. So nobody. And not that anybody could hear, but,

[Alan Sisto]

you know, they could see who was there, though. They could see what you're talking about if you.

[Sean Marchese]

They could.

[Alan Sisto]

They could see the PowerPoint presentation. And most people just read that anyway, so.

[Sean Marchese]

Right. Yeah. They're not really paying attention to the meeting. Another sidebar to on the Rings of Power in the Third Age. Here, I want to quickly read this. Now, these stones had this virtue that those who looked therein might perceive in them things far off, whether in place or in time. For the most part, they revealed only things near to another kindred stone. For the stones each called to each. But those who possessed great strength of will and of mind might learn to direct their gaze whither they would. Thus, the Numenoreans were aware of many things that their enemies wished to conceal, and little escaped their vigilance in the days of their might.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, that is pretty cool. I mean, the ability to use these to gather intelligence at any distance, under any circumstances, just about, is pretty incredible.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah. But this interesting idea of them each calling to each kind of suggests that maybe you would shroud a stone if you wanted to keep something secret from somebody on the other end. There is again, this sort of. This end to end communication thing.

[Alan Sisto]

The other alternative, of course, is just to not have the conversation in. In that room with the stone or go to the other. Go to its blind side.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, right.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I thought it was fascinating. I mean, first of all, the stones each calling to each. I mean, Keith picking up the phone and calling Mick.

[Sean Marchese]

I'm sure they're still on each other's speed dust.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm sure they are. The thing here is we get, I think for the first time the idea that they can also perceive things far off in. In time, not just place, which adds such a layer of complication to all of this.

[Sean Marchese]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Like when am I seeing this? Am I seeing this thing that happened yesterday or last week or last year? Because the date of things like when that army is forming are going to be really relevant.

[Sean Marchese]

It's important. Yeah, right.

[Alan Sisto]

Maybe that's why that great Numenorean Navy was late after all, by five years.

[Sean Marchese]

Well, we saw them in the stone. We thought they were going. It's interesting. I guess this is probably one of those things that somebody who has the authority to use the stones could probably control more.

[Alan Sisto]

Right, that makes sense.

[Sean Marchese]

They could probably really dial it in and know whether they're looking at something

[Alan Sisto]

happening now and purposefully choose to do so. Right. So you combine things like, well, the text here says great strength of will and mind. Add to that the legitimacy of their use.

[Sean Marchese]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Deputed authority or. Or inherited authority. And that would enable somebody to do some of these amazing things.

[Sean Marchese]

So you can rewind a few years. You can, you know, fast forward a little bit. That's fascinating.

[Alan Sisto]

These days there's a sticker on the palantir that says be kind, rewind.

[Sean Marchese]

That's right. I hate it when I pick up a palantir and it's still looking at something that's happening.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm looking at the credit. Yeah, that's crazy.

[Sean Marchese]

I want to see what's going on now.

[Alan Sisto]

That's way too many 80s references, by the way.

[Sean Marchese]

It is.

[Alan Sisto]

So back to the text and Unfinished Tales. Let's look at the footnote here. It is a long one, and while it doesn't really give us much more on shrouding, it is really interesting and it's worth looking at. If you remember at the end of our previous reading, Christopher mentioned that later detached note, the one that said the stones didn't have poles after all. That's not the only thing in that note, is it?

[Sean Marchese]

No. Christopher says that the note also explores the sight limitations and the concept of shrouding, but a little bit differently. The note starts by explaining that the stones retained the images received so that each contained within itself a multiplicity of images and scenes, some from a remote past.

[Alan Sisto]

That's wild.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah. So they're not just. These aren't just telescopes. These are recording and they have long term file storage. This is like a. Yeah, this is like a digital video recorder with its own USB stick built into it, but,

[Alan Sisto]

you know, unlimited size too.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Wow. Wow. Wild.

[Sean Marchese]

That's amazing.

[Alan Sisto]

That really is. In this note, this later detached note, the stone still can't see things that are in the dark. But we learn also that the stones themselves usually were kept in the dark. And partly, he says, it's because it's easier to see the visions. Sort of like your screen is dim when you're at the beach. You know, you can't turn up the brightness.

[Sean Marchese]

Right, yeah, that does make sense.

[Alan Sisto]

Because even though it's not using light, actual light waves to receive things, the person viewing it is viewing it optically. Like they're getting a vision of physical. Their retinas are being stimulated and they're getting signals through the.

[Sean Marchese]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

It's so interesting.

[Sean Marchese]

And they're seeing it in the stone. And of course, the stone is this dark crystal substance, glass, whatever it is. So. Yeah, you can probably imagine that it's not.

[Alan Sisto]

I don't want to hear the window with all the glare.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, yeah. This isn't a super bright image that's coming off the stone.

[Alan Sisto]

No.

[Sean Marchese]

Again, though, we go back to this shrouding and the method of shrouding, we still have no idea what it is.

[Alan Sisto]

No.

[Sean Marchese]

We are reminded that they're not blinded by objects or obstacles. But then we get this new information that they were placed in their original sites in spherical cases that were locked to prevent their misuse by the unauthorized. But that this casing also performed the office of shrouding them and making them quiescent. Ooh. So maybe shrouding is just like covering

[Alan Sisto]

it, you know, literally putting a shroud on it.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

But maybe of something dense in it. Well, except that they can see through mountains. It's interesting. Like, what material is this case made of that actually functions to shroud? Or maybe it's the proximity, maybe because it's so close to the Palantir, as opposed to a mountain 50 miles away, right?

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, that could be. It's actually covering it, and it's actually blocking. I mean, it's just like the way it's blocking out light, it's also blocking its vision to these things. I'm kind of reminded of some of the stuff we see in the Peter Jackson movie, you know?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

Placing some sort of cloth over the stone. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

That's interesting.

[Sean Marchese]

Interesting.

[Alan Sisto]

It is. It really is. I mean, I find myself just totally fascinated by how in the weeds Tolkien gets on this, and yet I still want more. It's so fascinating, this idea of shrouding, but we don't know. Now, as for these cases, Tolkien says in the note, the cases must have been made of some metal or some material that we don't know about anymore. And that's interesting because maybe it suggests that, you know, a dense metal is different than the dense rock, that it can see through a mountain or the. The woods of a forest or. Or the walls of a building that.

[Sean Marchese]

So they get like a lead case or something.

[Alan Sisto]

Right, exactly. Kryptonite, you know? Yeah, it's. It's so fascinating. I. I do want to know more. I desperately want to know more. In the meantime, I. I can't help but think like, okay, these, these cases were locked to prevent their misuse by the unauthorized, because once again, even the unauthorized could use them. Just. They just couldn't use them.

[Sean Marchese]

Well. Right, right.

[Alan Sisto]

So you got to lock them up.

[Sean Marchese]

So the unauthorized could get in there, spies could get in there, they could get some information they couldn't get, or

[Alan Sisto]

they could communicate some information too.

[Sean Marchese]

Right? That's true. That's true.

[Alan Sisto]

Using signs or semaphores or something, because again, it doesn't transmit sound. Christopher continues explaining that jottings connected to this note. So now we're. We're even another stage removed, which are partly illegible. Shocked, I tell you.

[Sean Marchese]

Oh, impossible.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, exactly. Still, even though they are partly illegible, Christopher could make out a bit more. Once again, thank you for doing the hard work, Christopher. I can't imagine, and I don't have to imagine we've seen some of the handwriting at the. The manuscript stuff.

[Sean Marchese]

His handwriting is hard to read. And the best of circumstances, even the

[Alan Sisto]

legible stuff is hard to read.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

In those jottings, we learned that the further back in time the event is that you're trying to see, the clearer the view. That's interesting as well.

[Sean Marchese]

That is interesting.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, I suspect it Might have

[Sean Marchese]

to do with sort of, like, the

[Alan Sisto]

permanence of it, because you would think

[Sean Marchese]

it would be the opposite. You would think recent things would be clearer.

[Alan Sisto]

You'd think that as it fades in the past, it's straight.

[Sean Marchese]

I mean, we even have metaphors, like, shrouded in the mists of time and things that are, you know, cloudy. Memory of something, like, you think, lost to history.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Which is like, nothing should ever be lost to history.

[Sean Marchese]

Well, that's true. It is.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a phrase we have for a reason. Like, we don't know anymore. You're right. This is the other way around. That the further back the event is, the clearer the view.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Which. Wow. Interesting.

[Sean Marchese]

It's weird. I'm not sure what to make of that, but it is fascinating. I kind of like your idea of, you know, permanence. The idea that maybe this is something that is now. It's now set in time. It's happened, and it's. It's firmly established. And so it's.

[Alan Sisto]

Maybe it's been viewed multiple times, and the viewings maybe sort of, you know, like, etch it in somehow. I don't know.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, maybe so. Interestingly, though, if we're talking about just viewing over distance instead of time, we're told that there was a proper distance. So there's this idea almost like there's, like, a focal point at which the right distance to stand, where you can see things better.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. The larger stones, of course. So that would be Osgiliath and Amon. Sul could see a lot farther. But the lesser are actually given a range in the text, aren't they?

[Sean Marchese]

Yes, that's right. Yeah. So I was actually thinking of this as the viewer's proper distance from the stone, but it really is the proper distance for the stone to see. And we're told that that was actually about 500 miles, which was about the distance between the Orthanc Stone and that of Anor, we're told. So those two are the right distance apart to see one another properly. Interestingly, though, the Anor stone and the Ithil stone. Tolkien tells us that Ithil was too near, but was largely used for. And we don't know because the words are illegible.

[Alan Sisto]

Even for Christopher.

[Sean Marchese]

Even for Christopher. But then he says not for personal contacts with Minas Anor.

[Alan Sisto]

So interesting.

[Sean Marchese]

He's telling us that Ithil was too close to be at the proper range here, but for on or direction, that was okay because they used it for something that was not personal contacts.

[Alan Sisto]

I would imagine that anything that Needed to go between those two close ones would go through. Then Osgilia at the Master Stone, which didn't care about the distance.

[Sean Marchese]

Maybe so.

[Alan Sisto]

Or presumably not as much. So they're communicating with the Master Stone, but, yeah, with each other, not so much.

[Sean Marchese]

Maybe they just weren't used for communicating with each other. They were used for seeing other things.

[Alan Sisto]

That's the thing. I mean, remember that Minas Ithil was in part built to keep a watch on Mordor, Right? We're going to make sure Sauron doesn't come back to this land. Oops, we've lost the city. It's perhaps looking east and therefore not in the same direction as Anar. It does make me wonder if that distance helped defend Denethor against Sauron's strength

[Sean Marchese]

because it was so close that he didn't get the full brunt of Sauron's.

[Alan Sisto]

Whereas Saruman's stone is maybe a little further than the ideal because the 500 miles is about the Orthanc stone to Anor stone. But Ithil's not that much further than Anor, so it's going to be maybe a little bit stronger. I don't know.

[Sean Marchese]

That's an interesting theory. Yeah, I like that.

[Alan Sisto]

That just came to mind as we were thinking that through. It's so interesting, and I love that. There's just more and more notes, more and more details. Yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

Yep. Well, this chapter is full of that stuff.

[Alan Sisto]

It is, isn't it?

[Sean Marchese]

Unfortunately, we've come to the last reading from it, haven't we?

[Alan Sisto]

We have. We have. The last one. Here we go. It's the last reading of the season, Sean. Wow.

[Sean Marchese]

It is. I know.

[Alan Sisto]

Season 10.

[Sean Marchese]

Crazy.

[Alan Sisto]

Here we go. A viewer could, by his will, cause the vision of the stone to concentrate on some point on or near its direct line. The uncontrolled visions were small, especially in the minor stones, though they were much larger to the eye of a beholder who placed himself at some distance from the surface of the palantir, about three feet at best, but controlled by the will of a skilled and strong surveyor. Remoter things could be enlarged, brought, as it were, were nearer and clearer while their background was almost suppressed. Thus, a man at a considerable distance might be seen as a tiny figure half an inch high, difficult to pick out against a landscape or a concourse of other men. But concentration could enlarge and clarify the vision till he was seen in clear, if reduced, detail, like a picture apparently a foot or more in height and recognized if he was known to the surveyor. Great concentration might even enlarge some detail that interested the surveyor so that it could be seen, for instance, if he had a ring on his hand. But this concentration was very tiring and might become exhausting. Consequently, it was only undertaken when information was urgently desired. And chance, aided by other information maybe enabled the surveyor to pick out itemssignificant for him and his immediate concern from the welter of the stone's visions. For example, Denethor, sitting before the Anor stone, anxious about Rohan and deciding whether or not at once to order the kindling of the beacons and the sending out of the arrow might place himself in a direct line looking northwest by west through Rohan passing close to Edoras and on towards the fords of Isen. At that time, there might be visible movements of men in that line. If so, he could concentrate on, say, a group, see them as riders and finally discover some figure known to him. Him Gandalf, for instance, riding with the reinforcements to Helm's Deep and suddenly breaking away and racing northwards. The Palantiri could not themselves survey men's minds at unawares or unwilling. For the transference of thought depended on the wills of the user on either side. And thought received as speech was only transmittable by one stone to another in accordance. There we go. More technical stuff. Yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

Yes, yes, more technical stuff with some detail on how an operator would actually use the stone. Right. So they're using their will. So they must be mentally attuned to the stone in some way. And again, this gets to the idea of like someone with authority or someone who is trained on how to use it can do it better. But using your will alone, you're going to focus on a particular location. But it has to be on or near the line.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

And the line differs for the lesser stones and that it's fixed. But even the other stones, the viewer is going to see what's on the line from the stone.

[Alan Sisto]

That is so interesting. Which then tells us the direction the Honor stone is looking.

[Sean Marchese]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

That it's looking towards the Orthang stone, you know, to the west, northwest.

[Sean Marchese]

Right, Right.

[Alan Sisto]

But we'll get to that. So the footnote here gives us something we'd probably already presumed. The views are not themselves limited to the four cards, cardinal directions. If you want to just look a little bit more to the north of due west you just move a little bit to your left, which is towards the south of the stone.

[Sean Marchese]

Right. Now, going back to his idea of ungoverned visions, those are going to be small, Right. Especially for the lesser stones. But if you placed yourself back from the stone about three feet. Then you're going to get a better view. So again, we're kind of. There's this idea of, like, these focal points.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. And don't get so close to the tv, it'll wreck your eyes. You know, you to. Got. Got to stand.

[Sean Marchese]

Exactly what mom always said.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. There's something here about physics and lenses and converging, but I'm not going to bother. These are uncontrolled and ungoverned visions. Things that, frankly, you and I would see since we don't know how to make them work. But somebody who has skill, like a proper surveyor could manipulate the vision. This makes me think of those awful moments in, like, spy movies. Zoom and enhance. Like. Like you can do that, right?

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah. Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking of. Yeah, they can actually do that. And they can actually enhance the image.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Pretty wild.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah. So, again, with an untrained viewer a single individual far away might look to be about half an inch tall, really small in these stones. But the skilled surveyor can then, you know, see that, zoom in and then make them look about a foot or so tall which, based on the size of the stones that's pretty much the full diameter of some of the smaller strains, huh? Yeah. Now, the note gives us a little something to chew on here. It says, great concentration. Might even enlarge some detail so that it could be seen. For instance, if he had a ring

[Alan Sisto]

on his hand, for instance. Gee, professor, I don't know why we'd

[Sean Marchese]

care about people with rings in this story. I don't know.

[Alan Sisto]

So I've got a question for you. Do you think Denethor is looking for a ring on Gandalf's fingers? Or maybe this came to mind as I was. Literally, as I was writing the episode. Or is he looking for maybe the Ring of Byro here on Aragorn's finger?

[Sean Marchese]

Probably yes to both. I mean, probably yes. That's fair. If he has a suspicion that Aragorn is the heir of Isildur he is probably looking for the Ring of Bower here. If he thinks there's a chance. So this is before he learns that they've actually sent the ring to be destroyed, right?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

But if he thinks when he first sees Gandalf riding towards Minas Tirith if he's thinking for a second, oh, maybe Gandalf has the one ring. Is he wearing it? And has Gandalf claimed it? He probably is looking at that.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a good point. Yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

Now, again, once Faramir comes and gives him the intel that, no, these two halflings have the ring and they're gonna go try and destroy it.

[Alan Sisto]

The ring is in this other direction. You let them go. You did what now?

[Sean Marchese]

Right, but before that, yeah, he probably is looking for a ring on Gandalf's finger. Maybe he's looking for the one ring on Aragorn's finger.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, that's true as well. He might very well be looking for that. Interesting point.

[Sean Marchese]

Now then we come back to this idea that using the stone causes a strain. Right. We talked about that a little bit earlier with Denethor and it's described here as very tiring, with the potential to be more than very tiring. Totally exhausting, basically.

[Alan Sisto]

So it's like parenting children.

[Sean Marchese]

Totally, yes. No rest.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. You don't get a day off. So a surveyor would only zoom in that hard and wear himself out potentially, when it was super important. And even then, chance played a role. Right. They'd have to pick out items and pieces from the mass of visions that the stone would provide. And that's where I'm reminded. Oh, yeah. You've got to not only sort through distance, you got to sort through time.

[Sean Marchese]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

That's crazy, man.

[Sean Marchese]

You got to get through the old stuff.

[Alan Sisto]

You got to make sure you're in the present time.

[Sean Marchese]

Right. Like, is this live footage or is this old footage?

[Alan Sisto]

Is this last week? Is this last year?

[Sean Marchese]

Right. Wow.

[Alan Sisto]

There's this huge army coming from the north.

[Sean Marchese]

That was 300 years ago. Yeah. I guess we're okay.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. That's wild.

[Sean Marchese]

Now we are given a concrete what if here.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

Denethor worrying about whether Rohan was coming, looking in the Anor Stone and then trying to figure out, you know, should I light the beacons, should I send the arrow? And again, you know, you don't always know what you're looking at here. You mentioned this a moment ago. He's looking west, northwest on a line near Etteras, towards the fords. And if he does that, he might see a group of men moving.

[Alan Sisto]

But then he has to concentrate, which of course costs energy. Right. It's tiring and could be exhausting. He zooms in a bit and now he sees that they're riders of Rohan. So he zooms in a bit more. Now he sees Gandalf riding with them and then he sees him breaking off northwards. I wonder what that tells him. Right. What is Denethor thinking? Wow. So Gandalf is with Rohan right now and Rohan is on their way. Or except they're not because they're riding that way. They're riding from Edoras to the west. They're not riding my way. So they're not coming.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, right.

[Alan Sisto]

But what does it mean that Gandalf's breaking off to the north? I don't know that he'd have. Well, except that he'd been in contact with Saruman. Right. How much did he know?

[Sean Marchese]

Oh, that could be it. Yeah. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Interesting.

[Sean Marchese]

So this is when they're actually going to communicate with Saruman. Yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Gandalf is going north because he knows that Treebeard has wrecked the place. Right.

[Sean Marchese]

And he's gonna go and confront Saruman.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, it's a little before the full blown confrontation. And he's up there for like 20 minutes talking to Treebeard.

[Sean Marchese]

Oh, that's right. Yeah. Before the Voice of Saruman stuff. But when he goes there the first

[Alan Sisto]

time, we're never part of that. We don't see that in the narrative, but we know that he's gone there. It's also when on the way back he stops and I believe that's when he orders the burial of some of the men that had died at the fords.

[Sean Marchese]

Okay, that sounds right.

[Alan Sisto]

And, and then, you know, because he. He talks about how. I think he talks about like the, like the wolves and the. What they were eating the Orcs and things like that. He talks about that on their way back up. Talks about his moments on the way down. So this is that moment. But what is Denethor thinking? It's. It's connected to do or is he? Yeah, I mean, I don't think Tolkien uses this example by accident.

[Sean Marchese]

I'm sure he doesn't. What do you think Denethor makes of this? Do you think that Denethor thinks that maybe Gandalf is riding up to talk to Saruman and maybe the two wizards are going to come and, you know.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

Join together against him. Does he know that Saruman is.

[Alan Sisto]

That's the thing, you know, we have no idea about that. But Tolkien has said that it is likely that Denethor has communicated with Saruman to his advantage. Again, intriguing, since we don't think he has the same mental power that Saruman has. You know, Tolkien has said that. Right. He doesn't have anybody smart as Saruman or as Denethor, let alone Saruman. But I think he sees conspiracies behind every corner Denethor does. So I think he probably believes, well, first of all, the Rohirrim are riding the wrong way. That alone is Bad news for Denethor. So he sees that now. He sees Gandalf heading north towards Isengard. And with virtually nobody with him. Right. Just. Just a handful. So, actually, I think it went by himself. Yeah. Because only shadow factors are gonna be

[Sean Marchese]

able to get him there fast enough.

[Alan Sisto]

He goes off by himself. So if he sees that, he's got to think the wizards are in league against me and Rohan isn't going to come help me. Yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

No wonder.

[Sean Marchese]

Wow. No wonder he made the decisions he made. He really thought he was alone. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Absolutely.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, thank goodness he did send the Red Arrow.

[Sean Marchese]

Amazing. Yeah. So it's not. Again, it's not quite the lack of nuance we see in the Peter Jackson movies where Denethor is like, oh, everybody's betrayed me. I'm on my own and I'm gonna.

[Alan Sisto]

It's not that bad.

[Sean Marchese]

No, it's not that bad. But he really does think he's alone. And sending the Red Arrow was. He probably didn't have much hope that it was going to be answered.

[Alan Sisto]

No, but he had to. I mean, anything that we can do to increase the small likelihood that Gondor can survive this.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah. Well, finally we get a little bit of information on how the stones transmit thought. It's not a lot, but we get a little bit. We are told that the stones did not have the ability on their own to read minds or thoughts. That's just not part of the technology. Thank goodness. I know, because they're bad enough. But surveyors on each side could transmit thought to one another by choice.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Two things to note, though. One, this could only be done if the stones are in a correct accord with each other. If they're in a Civic or a Camry, they are out of luck. Sorry. Yeah, been waiting a while for that one.

[Sean Marchese]

That's good.

[Alan Sisto]

But that brings up the question, the fact they have to be in accord with one another. Which stones were? I mean, you. You almost think that Anor and Ithil aren't. Because they're too close.

[Sean Marchese]

Right. But Anor and Orthanc seem to be.

[Alan Sisto]

But on Orthanc they probably were. And you would imagine that up north you had Aman Sul and Anuminous. They had to have been in accord with each other. And then Aman Sul was used to communicate with the Master Stone in Osgiliath.

[Sean Marchese]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

That's interesting. I mean, we just aren't told what is it that defines in accord. But you had to have the stones be in accord for that transmission to take place. And you had to have both the surveyor and the surveyor on the other end. Right. It takes two to make this happen.

[Sean Marchese]

Right. Well, so presumably Ithil and Orthanc must have been in accord with each other because Sauron is communicating to Saruman in thought.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're absolutely right. Those must have been. Yeah, but of course, the thing is, these thoughts were received by the other end of speech, just like the visions are received as visions.

[Sean Marchese]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

It isn't working with sound waves. It isn't working with reading minds. It's working with something we can't quite get our arms around. But whatever it is, the recipient hears it as speech.

[Sean Marchese]

The idea of the sender thinking the words.

[Alan Sisto]

And they do think the words literally, as we'll find out.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, yeah. And the recipient hears the words in their head, basically.

[Alan Sisto]

Now I have to wonder if it translates at all. Probably not. This isn't a Babel fish. I like the idea.

[Sean Marchese]

Well, it just says that the thoughts are received as speech, so maybe it does.

[Alan Sisto]

That's true if it's thoughts, but. Well, read the next bit. I think maybe not. We'll see.

[Sean Marchese]

Okay, yeah, let's look at that. Because in the last footnote here, Christopher goes back to that same late detached note where we get the way this works in a little bit more detail. And there he says two persons, each using a stone in accord with the other, could converse, but not by sound, which the stones did not transmit. Looking one at the other, they would exchange thought. Not their full or true thought or their intentions, but silent speech. The thoughts they wished to transmit already formalized in linguistic form in their minds or actually spoken aloud, which would be received by their respondents and of course, immediately transformed into speech and only reportable as such.

[Alan Sisto]

So even though it is thoughts, it's thoughts put into words. You're literally thinking the words or even speaking the words to make sure you're focusing on and sending those words as thoughts. And then the recipient gets those transmitted and they hear them audibly.

[Sean Marchese]

So they probably are not translated because you're thinking the words in your head, or like you said, you're saying the words out loud.

[Alan Sisto]

You have to think the words in formalized and linguistic form. Right. So you didn't accidentally send his hidden thoughts, let alone intentions, via the stone. You would think the words in your head. You might even speak them aloud to make sure that those are the words that your mind transmits. And then the thoughts, not the audible sound of the words, not the actual sound waves, the air moving, the thoughts are Transmitted by the stones, but they are thoughts of words, and then those words are changed into actual speech. Such an interesting technology.

[Sean Marchese]

It is fascinating. It is, because it's not telepathy, you know. It's not Osanwe.

[Alan Sisto]

No, it's not Osanwe. No, not at all.

[Sean Marchese]

But it's also not sound. It's something in between.

[Alan Sisto]

It's like the conversion of sound to a thought that's transmitted somehow beyond any. I mean, there's magic working here. And then converted back to sound.

[Sean Marchese]

Converted back to sound.

[Alan Sisto]

Similar with the light waves, because it's not actually using light waves, because otherwise we wouldn't be able to see anything in the past. It's using something else to receive that vision. But then it converts it into a actual visible vision that's burned onto the retinas of the surveyor.

[Sean Marchese]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, not burned.

[Sean Marchese]

That's fascinating.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Surveyors are placed all the time. Their eyes burn out. It's a terrible job. Nobody tells you about that.

[Sean Marchese]

It's. You're not in that job for very long.

[Alan Sisto]

All right, man. There was a lot there.

[Sean Marchese]

So thus.

[Alan Sisto]

Thus, a man at a bar might be seen as a tiny figure, half an inch high. Little thick, though, for half an inch. High concentration, though, could enlarge and clarify that vision till he was seen in clear, if reduced detail. Great concentration. Might even enlarge some detail that interested the surveyor so that it could be seen, for instance, if he had a mailbag in his hand. Sean, what does Parliament have in his horribly Segway bag?

[Sean Marchese]

That was quite the segue.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, man.

[Sean Marchese]

So I thought this question would be interesting, given what we talked about at the beginning of the episode. This one came in from Andrew G. In Florida.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay.

[Sean Marchese]

And Andrew wrote in saying, alan, you've been doing the PPP for 10 years. You're a well known voice in the online Tolkien community. What's the most surprising thing to you about how the Tolkien community has grown since you and Sean started the podcast? And then Andrew asks, and you know, if you want tell me a little bit about where you see it going in the next 10 years.

[Alan Sisto]

Wow. The Tolkien fandom in the future. I do love that question.

[Sean Marchese]

We talked about the future of the podcast. Let's talk a little bit about the future of the fandom or the history of the fandom or. Yeah, recent history.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, that's the thing. The last 10 years have been kind of a blur. I might. I might argue with the premise of the question. I am a slightly known voice in the online Tolkien community, and I'm Perfectly happy with that. But I.

[Sean Marchese]

You are a multiple Tolkien Society award winning voice in the Tolkien community paired only with you.

[Alan Sisto]

I have yet to win one since your departure and I think that's not an accident.

[Sean Marchese]

Well, I don't know.

[Alan Sisto]

It's all good. It's all good night. It has been. Been an incredible surprise that this has lasted this long, but about the Tolkien community, the most surprising thing to me about the growth of the Tolkien community in the last 10 years. Ooh, I don't know that anything has surprised me because it was a pretty amazing community 10 years ago and it still is today, like to various degrees embedded in other fandoms, whether it's Star Wars, Star Trek, Warhammer, 40K, Fringe, on a few other fandoms. None of the fandoms are as warm and welcoming and friendly as the Tolkien community. And I'm not saying we don't have our flaws. We've, I think frankly, Rings of Power brought a lot of ugliness to the fore.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, and, and kind of showed this split that, let's be honest, was there, you know, when, when Jackson did his films as well. The idea that that is some glorified past where we all love the films right out of the box is just simply a fictional.

[Sean Marchese]

That's always been there. That resistance to those adaptations has always been there. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

But, you know, it is a smaller fraction of the Tolkien fandom than it is in other fandoms. And what I see in the Tolkien fandom that I don't see in the others is a large portion of people able to disagree civilly and kindly and come back to their love for the text and for Tolkien. I feel like none of that is really surprising to me because it's the Tolkien fandom. It's a fandom of works that encourage that sort of behavior, that warm the heart, that talk about Fellowship. And so I would say that's the most pleasant thing, but I can't say it's a surprise. So I don't know that anything has surprised me in that regard because I've always expected them to be that way and they've behaved that way. I will say about surprising is how incredibly supportive the Tolkien community has been to the PPP in general. But specifically since you had to step back to see the people that came in willing to fill your shoes, if temporarily in season seven in particular, to come in and say, I'll do that. Let me co host the show with you, that was mind blowing to me. And the, the not only willingness, but the, the fact that our listeners have embraced them. I mean, we all miss you, of course, and there's a part of me that, of course I, I wish it still were just the two of us, but.

[Sean Marchese]

Sure.

[Alan Sisto]

You know what's been amazing and a little bit surprising to me is how incredible the community has been since that transition and how they've supported the show and how they've continued to support. So it's. That's more about. Less about the Tolkien fandom and more about our smaller fandom, our little corner of the Tolkien fandom. But that's, that's not about the, the general fandom in terms of where I see the entire Tolkien community going over the next 10 years. We talked about this a little bit in the book. The fact that, you know, in 1956, every Tolkien fan, every Tolkien fan had read the books because that's all there was. If you didn't read the books, you weren't a Tolkien fan, you weren't a

[Sean Marchese]

Tolkien fan because there was nothing. That was the only way to engage

[Alan Sisto]

with the story, couldn't consume the content in any other form. As time goes on, by the very nature of time, more and more people will come to Tolkien through adaptations. You know, The Jackson films 25 years ago, the Jackson Hobbit films, for better or for worse, the Rings of Power television show, Lord of the Rings online, Shadow of War, Shadow of Mordor, magic, the Gathering. I mean, there's all sorts of, of entry points now that's only going to accelerate. We're only going to see more and more adaptations and more and more formats. Right. I mean, I think about, you know, I mentioned video games and card games, board games as well, role playing games. All of these are ways that people can be exposed to Middle Earth. Yes. Hopefully I want them to come to the books, but the fact is there are going to be Tolkien fans who never read the books now. I think they're missing out, and I'll tell them that, but I'm never going to tell them they're not a Tolkien fan.

[Sean Marchese]

Right. Yeah, exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

That's not my right to say that.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

So I see the community growing because of the reach of adaptations. I do see the potential for fractions, for splits, for that conflict. And I hope that once again our better natures win and that, you know, we, we see the fandom continue to stay kind of above the fray in comparison to those others.

[Sean Marchese]

I suppose it could happen just like the way that there's. I mean, I'm not really enough of a Star Trek fan to say this I'm just speculating. You know, there's probably Star Trek fans who are fans of the original series versus Next Generation versus other things that have come since, but it's not like they have, like, really big factional conflict between them, is there?

[Alan Sisto]

I think there is. I'm still. Sadly, I'm a little more fringe on that fandom than I'd like to be just because of time. There does seem to be a split in the. It's not so much original versus everything else. It's like, up to next gen. And DS9 is, like, the good stuff and everything. Post that is questionable in the minds of some. Like, basically after Roddenberry passed away.

[Sean Marchese]

And there's certainly people in, like, the Star wars fandom who say everything George Lucas touched was great.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly.

[Sean Marchese]

And then everything Disney has done is not good. And that's. That's. I'm a Star wars fan. I'm not a huge Star wars fan because there's just too much out there.

[Alan Sisto]

There is too much out there to consume.

[Sean Marchese]

I know, but I've always been a Star wars fan, and I. And I. I reject that notion that everything Disney does is 100 bad. I mean, there's been a lot of really good stuff since Disney took over, so.

[Alan Sisto]

Man, absolutely.

[Sean Marchese]

I guess that stuff is all.

[Alan Sisto]

Andor. I'm just gonna put andor out there. Be like, best Star wars since Star wars, if you ask me.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And I think we may see that kind of thing in Tolkien. There's a part of me, of course, that sort of hopes it isn't. I am still at my heart, a bit of a book purist, but I'm never going to impose that book purity on others. I'm really glad to see people coming into the fandom, however they get there. Where I see it going is growing and growing into more adaptations. I think the only fear I have, and fear may be too strong a word, but it is a concern, is like, what happens happens when public domain happens. What happens when there are no more guardrails and we have, like, the equivalent of the Winnie the Pooh horror movie, you know, when that went public domain.

[Sean Marchese]

There are so many legal ways to fight that, though. I kind of feel like, you know, I mean, I guess it'll happen eventually.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Probably not in my lifetime. I mean, that's one time where mortality comes into play and it's a slight advantage.

[Sean Marchese]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

But yeah, I do think as a whole, though, the fandom will continue to be one of the best around. Like, there are really no other fandoms like the Tolkien fandom. And it comes down to who the professor was and the world that he created. You know, it's a hopeful world. It's a world. You look at so many of those other fantasy stories and universes, and they're incredibly well built and they're engaging and they draw you in, and there's great stories and there's incredible characters and. But a lot of them just lack that hope. A lot of them lack the bones. If we go to On Ferry's story of recovery, escape, and consolation, I think

[Sean Marchese]

that's a really good answer. I mean, I think the only thing that I would say differently would be just I've been surprised at how many new voices have entered the discussion in the fandom.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, the. Not just fans.

[Sean Marchese]

And partly as a result of. Yeah, exactly. And I think, like, when we started the podcast 10 years ago, we were kind of at a lull between adaptations. You know, it was several years since the Jackson Hobbit movies. There wasn't Rings of Power for a while. But now that Rings of Power is out there, it is bringing in these new fans. And so we are getting younger content creators on newer platforms that even I'm not familiar with. I mean, obviously I'm familiar with TikTok to a degree, but, like, there's. There's so many different things out there that younger creators are coming into, and I think that's great.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a fair point. That is a bit of a surprise, I confess. Yeah. I never would have imagined that.

[Sean Marchese]

Right. Yeah. I mean, because how could we? We had no idea that some of these platforms were even gonna exist. Who knew TikTok was gonna be a thing?

[Alan Sisto]

Seriously.

[Sean Marchese]

But I love that that's out there, because, again, it's just. It's getting Tolkien's work out there to more and more fans. And like you, I hope that we can stay somewhat cohesive. I know there's always going to be slices and subsets of the fandom, people who are more into one thing, people who are more into one content creator. Certainly the PPP community, you know, they're more into our show. But I hope that we can always stay cohesive and keep that fellowship, like you said, because I think that that is something that makes this fandom special, and I hope we always keep it.

[Alan Sisto]

I do, too. That's a really good point, by the way. I think you talk about more fans being reached by these other content, younger content creators, for the most part, on newer platforms, and that speaks to sort of the generational aspect of this. And I think that's fantastic because we're not just reaching more fans, we're reaching new fans. We're reaching younger fans. Fans who might literally not even have been born when the first Jackson films came out.

[Sean Marchese]

Right. Yeah. You know, that's definitely.

[Alan Sisto]

You're 21 years old. You. You were. You know, you didn't exist when those films came out to. To you. Those films are old, but they're new now because you've never. You know what I mean? Like, that's so cool. And I love to see. That's something I definitely love seeing at Moots. You know, some.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Kid in their early 20s sitting next to somebody in their 40s, sitting next to somebody in their 60s, all of them having a conversation about Tolkien.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah. And that's how we keep this fandom thriving is by bringing in new generations of fans. And like you said, a lot of them are introduced by. By the movies or by Rings of Power. And that's what's great. I don't want this fandom to stagnate. I don't want it to ever get locked into just, you know, the same, Like, I don't want it to just be the same group of old guys in 20 years than it was 10 years ago.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, the fact of the matter is, 20 years from now, we're not going to be creating content probably. Almost certainly. I mean, I'll be lucky if I'm still doing this in 10 years. I hope that there are others stepping in our footsteps, talking to another younger

[Sean Marchese]

generation to do the next thing. Exactly right. And hopefully maybe inspired by what we're doing.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. So, folks, if you're listening to this, go out there and do it. There's room for it. I have long said this, and I guess I should probably now, looking at the length of our recording so far, wrap with this. But the Tolkien content creators community, the people that podcast and write and blog and give talks and do videos and do tiktoks and do music and do all these things, it is collaborative, not competitive. It is a collaboration. You work. Work with these people. You don't compete against them. And. And if you. If you view it that way, these people are in your fellowship. Right? This is. Yeah, the large Fellowship. We've got a quest. Our quest isn't to destroy a ring. Our quest is to build a fandom. And, you know, we can do that, even if some of us are, you know, fools of a toque and some of us are wise old wizards, you know, and it just.

[Sean Marchese]

That we've each got our. We've each got our voice. We've each got something to contribute.

[Alan Sisto]

That's exactly right. And that is true, folks, I just want to say that is true of everybody. Even the people you disagree with, you know. Yeah, maybe even. Especially those folks.

[Sean Marchese]

So that's well said. I think that's a good place to stop.

[Alan Sisto]

Thank you. Thank you. And thank you for the question. Andrew. Good one, folks. Thank you for joining us for another episode and another season of the Prancing Pony podcast. We hope you enjoy your summer and we hope that you'll also come back. Join me and Sarah Brown as we begin season 11 of the PPP on September 20th and we embark on a season long read through of the story of Beren and Luthien.

[Sean Marchese]

And I am hoping to join you as soon as my favorite evil black cat shows up.

[Alan Sisto]

Ah, that's right.

[Sean Marchese]

But folks, Alan and I want to thank the members of Team ppp. That's our editor Jordan Renels, our barlowman Becca Davis, social media manager Casey Hilsey, event and Patreon community coordinator Katie McKenna, graphic artist Megan Collins, video editor Yonatan Lazens and website guru Phil Dean.

[Alan Sisto]

And please take a minute to check out the prancingponypodcast.com that's where you'll find show notes, outtakes, Prancing Pony ponderings, and our fully revamped PPP merch store. That storefront is where you can get all sorts of cool PPP merch, including the amazing chapter art that Megan's been doing for us for four seasons Now.

[Sean Marchese]

Now, we are all about the books here at the Prancing Pony Podcast, so be sure to also visit our library page. We try to make sure that any book we've mentioned on the show is linked there for you to purchase. And we do get a small amount of compensation when you make your purchase. So thank you for that.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. And we also want to thank our patrons at the Cirdan's contribution tier. I'll start with Demay in Alaska, Chad in Texas, Joseph in Michigan, Kathy from North Carolina, Brian in the uk, Jerry from Washington, Irwin from the Netherlands, Ben in Minnesota, Anthony in Texas, Joshua in Massachusetts, Lucy in Texas, Erica in Texas, James in Massachusetts, Ann in Kentucky, Sean in New Jersey and Mason in California.

[Sean Marchese]

And there's also Maureen from Massachusetts, Olivia in London, Robert in Arizona, Nick in Wisconsin, Lewis in South Carolina, Thomas in Germany, Craig in California, Kevin in Massachusetts, Joe in Maryland, Dee Scott in California, Jeffrey in Michigan, Paul in Colorado, David from Connecticut, Teresa from Texas, and Lynn in New Jersey. Thank you all so very much for your support indeed.

[Alan Sisto]

Thank you.

[Sean Marchese]

And make sure you don't miss any episodes of the Prancing Pony podcast. Subscribe now through Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or your favorite podcast app, whatever it is.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. And one last thing. As always, don't forget to send your thoughts, comments, and most of all, a bottle of Advil. These stones are giving me a headache. To borrow my@the prancingponypodcast.com not the the

[Sean Marchese]

little yellow pill that Mick sings about. The Mother's Little Helper. Anyway, Barlaman does have a lot of mail to sort through, though, so we'll try to get to you just as soon as we're able.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. As always, though, this has been far too short a time to spend among such excellent and admirable listeners and my excellent and admirable co host. But until next time, farewell, friends.

[Sean Marchese]

Close your eyes.

[Alan Sisto]

Exhale.

[Sean Marchese]

Feel your body relax and let go of whatever you're carrying. Today, while I'm letting go of of

[Alan Sisto]

the worry that I wouldn't get my new contacts in time for this class, I got them delivered free from 1-800-contacts. Oh, my gosh, they're so fast.

[Sean Marchese]

And breathe.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, sorry. I almost couldn't breathe when I saw the discount they gave me on my first order. Oh, sorry. Namaste. Visit 1-800-contacts.com today to save on your first order.

[Sean Marchese]

1-800-contacts. What if I told you you only have 12 hours to legally have sex?

[Alan Sisto]

To finding true love or just like

[Sean Marchese]

a good guy from the director of Easy A and Anyone but you.

[Alan Sisto]

This whole thing is nuts.

[Sean Marchese]

There's nothing traditional about this, Lane. On August 7th, the clock starts on the summer's biggest rom com.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm Owen.

[Sean Marchese]

Allie. What about you and me? Monica Barbaro. Callum Turner. I've been told I'm a seven.

[Alan Sisto]

By who? Your mom?

[Sean Marchese]

No, she thinks I'm a ten.

[Alan Sisto]

One night only.

[Sean Marchese]

Rated R only in theaters August 7th.