An Unexpected Episode – The War of the Rohirrim Review

Summary

The Prancing Pony Podcast: An Unexpected Episode – The War of the Rohirrim Review

Released on December 15, 2024

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Introduction

In this unexpected bonus episode of The Prancing Pony Podcast, hosts Alan Sisto and Matt delve into a comprehensive review of the much-anticipated animated film, "The War of the Rohirrim." As dedicated Tolkien enthusiasts, Alan and Matt bring their passion and expertise to dissect every facet of the film, from its unique anime adaptation to its faithful yet inventive storytelling. Despite the episode's surprise release, Matt quips, "[...] the movie's been announced for two years, so I don't know how unexpected this is." (00:47)

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Choice of Anime as Medium

One of the standout discussions revolves around the film's choice to adopt the anime format. Alan expresses his initial skepticism but ultimately praises the decision, highlighting anime's expressive potential and its ability to convey powerful narratives. He notes, "It can be expressive. It can really convey a story pretty powerfully. And I think in this case, it was a really good choice." (03:20)

Matt, with limited exposure to anime beyond children's shows like Pokémon and Avatar: The Last Airbender, acknowledges his unfamiliarity but appreciates the visual style. He adds an interesting tidbit: "The 1977 animated Hobbit was made by the studio that would become Studio Ghibli. How crazy is that?" (03:57)

Alan further clarifies a common misconception, emphasizing that "Anime is not a genre. Anime is a medium." (08:46). This distinction is crucial in understanding the film's artistic direction, aiming to transcend traditional genre boundaries and explore the expansive lore of Middle-earth through a fresh lens.

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Sound Design Excellence

Both hosts are effusive in their praise for the film's sound design, which they believe rivals that of live-action adaptations. Matt exclaims, "I've never heard an animated film sound this good." (14:55), while Alan agrees, highlighting the immersive qualities brought forth by the meticulous audio work.

However, they do note a slight misstep with the sound effects in the Watcher in the Water scene. Alan points out, "They used the exact sound from that [Peter Jackson's adaptation]. It pulled me right out of it." (15:28). This borrowing of sound effects, though few, momentarily disrupts the film's unique auditory experience.

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Story and Plot Adaptations

Alan and Matt commend the film for staying true to the source material while effectively filling in narrative gaps. They appreciate how pivotal moments from Tolkien's lore are translated into the film, ensuring that core elements remain intact. Matt remarks, "They've added a lot of things. Of course, they've had to fill in the blanks to turn this into a full story." (40:45)

Notable additions include the dynamic portrayal of battles, such as Helm Hammerhand's confrontation with the snow troll and the strategic inclusion of Mumakil. The hosts also discuss the narrative choice to incorporate a night-time battle scene, enhancing the eerie and desperate atmosphere of the Rohirrim's plight. Alan observes, "It's a really intense moment with the battles with the Mumakill." (42:18)

While most plot adaptations receive acclaim, the duo expresses reservations about certain deviations, such as the addition of the Watcher in the Water and some dialogue choices that closely mimic the live-action films, which can feel overly nostalgic.

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Characters and Casting Brilliance

Casting choices receive high praise, with Alan and Matt highlighting performances that breathe life into the beloved characters. Miranda Otto reprises her role as the narrator, creating a seamless connection to the existing Middle-earth films. Alan states, "That brings me around to casting because Miranda Otto was a natural fit for that." (21:25)

Brian Cox's portrayal of Helm Hammerhand is lauded for its depth and authenticity. Alan commends Cox, saying, "He absolutely flipping owns." (21:49) Similarly, Gaia Wise's rendition of Hera is celebrated for conveying a complex array of emotions, from doubt to unwavering strength. Matt adds, "You really felt everything from the doubt and the sort of the tenderness that she had with her father and then the strength." (22:48)

Supporting characters, such as Wolf, voiced by a compelling performer, and Olwen, portrayed by Lorraine Ashbourne, receive commendations for adding layers to the narrative and enriching the character dynamics.

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Gripes and Criticisms

Despite the overall positive reception, Alan and Matt identify a few areas where the film could have improved:

1. Watcher in the Water Scene: Both hosts find this particular scene unnecessary and a distraction from the main narrative. Alan mentions, "I didn't like that scene at all." (40:30), feeling it detracts from the story's flow.

2. Character Development: Matt expresses a desire for deeper exploration of Helm's mental state following the loss of his sons. He reflects, "I would have liked to see Helm's mental state." (18:05), suggesting that more nuanced portrayals could have added emotional weight.

3. Dialogue and Camera Angles: The film occasionally mirrors dialogue and camera work from the live-action films too closely, leading to moments that feel like direct callbacks rather than original elements. Alan critiques, "...a little too much." (52:18).

4. Villain Arc: While Wolf is an effective antagonist, both hosts feel that his character could have benefited from a more detailed backstory, particularly regarding his relationship with his father, Frecka. Matt notes, "I would have liked to see a little more of Wolf prior to Freca getting killed." (29:24).

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Overall Impressions and Ratings

Wrapping up their review, both Alan and Matt affirm their satisfaction with the film, awarding it a solid 8 out of 10. Alan summarizes, "I'm not going to give it a 10, but it's a really solid movie." (56:52), while Matt echoes similar sentiments, emphasizing the film's adept storytelling and faithful adaptation of Rohan's lore. Matt confidently states, "I think this movie is a win." (55:53).

They acknowledge minor shortcomings but assert that these do not overshadow the film's strengths, particularly its unique anime presentation and robust character performances.

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Conclusion

The War of the Rohirrim emerges as a commendable addition to the Middle-earth filmography, successfully blending traditional Tolkien elements with the distinctive flair of anime. Alan and Matt's in-depth analysis highlights both the film's triumphs and its minor flaws, offering listeners a balanced perspective. For Tolkien fans and cinephiles alike, this animated take on the Rohirrim's legendary battles proves to be a worthy watch, earning the hosts' enthusiastic endorsement.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Alan (03:20): "It can be expressive. It can really convey a story pretty powerfully. And I think in this case, it was a really good choice."

• Matt (14:55): "I've never heard an animated film sound this good."

• Alan (08:46): "Anime is not a genre. Anime is a medium."

• Matt (22:48): "You really felt everything from the doubt and the sort of the tenderness that she had with her father and then the strength."

• Matt (56:52): "I'm not going to give it a 10, but it's a really solid movie."

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Timestamp Key

• MM:SS denotes minute and second marks within the transcript.

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Note: This summary excludes advertisements, intros, outros, and non-content segments as per the podcast guidelines.

Transcript

[Alan]

What's the best time of day to get a deal?

[Matt]

All day with Jack in the box's.

[Alan]

All day big deal meal.

[Matt]

You get to choose from four entrees like the supreme croissant and five tasty sides, plus a drink starting at $5. So hurry in or take your time. You've got all day at Jack. Every bite's a big deal.

[Alan]

Well, good evening, little masters, and welcome to an unexpected bonus episode of the Prancing Pony Podcast, where Matt and I are going to be talking about the War of the Rohirrim.

[Matt]

Although the movie's been announced for two years, so I don't know how unexpected this is.

[Alan]

Really just the episode is unexpected. Nobody thought that we were going to be releasing a bonus episode on it.

[Matt]

Yeah, a bonus episode. So this is a nice, nice, fun holiday surprise in people's under their podcast tree. All right, folks, I love it. Pull up a bench in the common room and join us. I'm Matt the Nerd of the Rings, and I'm here with the man of the west, who surely would not dare to betray Helm Hammerhand or not answer the call of the Rohirrim and make them wonder where he was when the Westfold fell. Anything like that.

[Alan]

No, I would not want to risk the wrath of Helm.

[Matt]

No.

[Alan]

All right, well, folks, join us as we dive into the movie, as we talk about everything from the choice of doing it as an anime to the plot and the characters and the music and everything. It's going to be a fun time.

[Matt]

Yeah, absolutely. Folks, no matter how you arrived, you're all welcome here in the common room at the Prancing Pony Podcast. We are reading and talking our way through Middle Earth with plenty of speculation and bad jokes along the way.

[Alan]

And though we do love our deep dives into the lore and discussing our favorite themes, tonight isn't about that. We're not going to be talking too much about the books that we will reference them. We're going to be talking about the movie.

[Matt]

Yeah. But of course, no matter if we're talking about books or movies or what have you, we try to keep it light and fun, like a couple friends chatting at the pub. And we're glad you've joined us, and.

[Alan]

I'm sure you'll be glad you joined as well. But fair warning, before we continue, there will be spoilers if you have not seen the film yet. This is not going to be a spoiler free review, so you're going to want to go ahead and hit pause and listen to it after you've seen the movie.

[Matt]

I'm really curious, you know, we. You brought up earlier the choice of making this an anime, and this is something that. That you and I, I don't think have. Have talked about at all.

[Alan]

I don't think we have. No.

[Matt]

Yeah. Your. Your previous experience with anime. I. I've told my viewers, you know, I. My experience with anime is very limited. I've seen my kids watch Pokemon and an Avatar. The Last Airbender, which I was informed in the comment section is not technically an anime because it's not made in Japan.

[Alan]

So that's just a cartoon, bro.

[Matt]

It's even more limited than I thought it was. Yeah. So. Yeah, so. Yeah. Yeah. So I. I'm pretty new to anime. Yeah. I saw Akira in college and that was about it.

[Alan]

I mean, I've seen, I think two or three studio Ghibli films. I've maybe watched one other and then a TV show that was an anime, but not a lot. And it's an interesting medium. I certainly don't have anything against it. It can be expressive. It can really convey a story pretty powerfully. And I think in this case, it was a really good choice. I liked the visuals in the style that they. I'm still. Even now, and of course, I just watched it a few hours ago. I'm still seeing the characters in my mind's eye.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan]

Very striking.

[Matt]

Yeah. There's some interesting things. Oh. Little bit of trivia. I don't know if you knew this, but the 1977 animated Hobbit was made by the studio that would become Studio Ghibli. How crazy is that? Yeah, but. Yeah. So when it comes to Rohirrim, though, one of the producers, Jason DeMarco, mentioned at New York Comic Con how there were certain things that you could do with animation that you can't do in live action. And I. I've. That's kind of something that stuck with me. And I've kind of, you know, trying on repeat viewing to take notice of. Of such things.

[Alan]

I'll have to have repeat viewing before I could take notice of it.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan]

Yeah. I saw it for the first time today.

[Matt]

Yeah. So I think one of those is like when. When Helm jumps down and punches the snow troll.

[Alan]

Yeah.

[Matt]

And knocks off his horn and stuff. Yeah. Like he jumps from pretty far away.

[Alan]

You know, it's pretty unrealistic. Yeah.

[Matt]

Which. Yeah. Which. Which I don't think would fly in a live action, but it works.

[Alan]

It would look too Avengers. It would. It would look like, you know, a CG superhero thing.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan]

And it would kind of take you out of the moment, I think. But it works in animation.

[Matt]

Yes, absolutely it does. You know, because snow trolls. Huge, you know.

[Alan]

Yeah.

[Matt]

And even looking at the trolls in Peter Jackson's movies, you know, the live action movies, can you imagine a man, you know, but they're able to make Helm bigger than like a normal man.

[Alan]

Yeah, Helm is big. Helm's a big guy.

[Matt]

He's a mountain of a man in this movie.

[Alan]

He really, really is. And that's the thing is it conveys that visually in a way that maybe you would. Had a hard time. Live action. I think if we're talking about other scenes that would have been difficult, if not impossible to do, Live Action is a scene that I actually will have to come across eventually. When we talk about this as one of my not so favorite scenes. It was the scene when Hera lures the Oliphant, the Mumak, into the forest where she knows that there's a watcher in the water. And the watcher in the water swallows the guy whole. I mean, that was a little over the top. And I'll get to. That's one of my gripey scenes. But I don't think you could do that. Even with cg. It was sort of surreal. I think that's actually the word I'm looking for. It was surreal. And that is something that anime can do quite well.

[Matt]

Yeah, I was on the same page with that, like that scene. Just. It just. It didn't really feel like it needed to be there.

[Alan]

No, it felt like. And that'll get. We'll get to one of my gripes here. Let's. We'll categorize gripes separately. Let's start about. Okay, maybe we talk a little bit about the choice of anime. We'll still talk about that until we're done talking about that. And then maybe we'll talk about, let's say scoring. Then we'll talk about maybe voice acting. And then we can talk about maybe story and plot in terms of lore. And then we can maybe talk about some of our. Our complaints or gripes.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan]

Things. Because I want to be positive first. And most of those other things are all positive. So.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I. I think, you know, like I said, for someone who doesn't have much experience with anime, like, I don't get fired up when I hear, you know, when. Yeah, something is coming out and it's like. And it's going to be anime. I'm not one of those people that's.

[Alan]

Like, oh, yes, oh, now I got to see it. Right. In fact, if anything, when I first heard that about this, I was like, really?

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan]

I mean, I wasn't, like, skeptical in a negative sense. I was just like, well, that's an interesting choice.

[Matt]

Right. I don't know.

[Alan]

I don't know what to do.

[Matt]

Just because there's such a tradition of live action now. You know, obviously those. Those early adaptations were all animated.

[Alan]

Yeah.

[Matt]

But, you know, it's really found success in live action. And so a lot of people.

[Alan]

Yeah, yeah. By no measure can you say that Ralph Bakshi's Lord of the Rings was box office success. Right.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah. So it was so successful that they only made half of the Lord of.

[Alan]

The Rings so successful. They just ended it at Helm's Deep and said, we're done now. Sorry, Ralph. Yeah.

[Matt]

But, yeah, I know a lot of people have a soft spot for that. I don't as much, but I have.

[Alan]

A soft spot for a few moments in it. But mostly I have criticisms. Yeah.

[Matt]

I do think. And I'll be very curious to see where the box office numbers end up.

[Alan]

Yeah. Yeah. I wonder if it limits.

[Matt]

Yeah. I've. I've long, you know, kind of, kind of given up on trying to have trust. Like Rotten Tomatoes scores.

[Alan]

Everything these days can be manipulated.

[Matt]

There's so many things that make a bajillion dollars, and I'm just like, are you serious?

[Alan]

Yeah, you got.

[Matt]

So it is what it is. But I do wonder if. If it being anime, and I've seen it in, like, my comment sections, you know, there's. There's people who will not watch it because it is anime and because they.

[Alan]

Just aren't interested in that.

[Matt]

They just aren't interested.

[Alan]

Which is a shame, because anime is not. And this is something I really want to remind people. Anime is not a genre. Anime is a medium.

[Matt]

Yes, absolutely.

[Alan]

And that's the important distinction. I think a lot of people when they think anime, especially if they don't have any exposure to the. To the medium, they think of it as a genre and they think of a style of film or style of TV show that is sort of classic anime.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan]

Whatever that may be. To a person who hasn't seen much.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan]

And they think of that as anime, and they're like, well, how are they going to tell the Lord of the Rings like that? No, it can. Can. It can be a comedy, it can be a drama, it can be an action. It can be, you know, it doesn't. It tells whatever story it wants to tell.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan]

And so it's just a medium. You know, you could do it as cg, you could do it as live action, you could do it as, I don't know, puppetry. I mean, it's just a medium. That's all it is.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah. And I do think, you know, and it's not just anime, but like, there's people who just aren't interested in animation, period. You know, they look at it and say, oh, that's a cartoon, you know, and don't shoot the messenger here, folks. I'm just relaying what's it. I don't agree with these sentiments. I'm just saying that, you know, these are comments that I've seen, you know, for months now.

[Alan]

Yeah. And so I think it is going to impact the sort of the ceiling, if you will, of the box office success. Yeah.

[Matt]

Fortunately for the movie, you know, compared to a live action film, it did not cost anywhere near.

[Alan]

It may have a lower ceiling, but it has a lower cost too.

[Matt]

Right. I want to say it was like 20 or 30 million. I can't remember.

[Alan]

That's less than you would pay like one star actor.

[Matt]

Yes. Oh, yeah.

[Alan]

Live action.

[Matt]

Robert Downey Jr. Makes probably like three times that for a Marvel for one Iron man movie.

[Alan]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Right. I just looked it up. 30. 30 million? Yeah.

[Alan]

Man, that's wild. That's such a small budget for a Hollywood film. Yeah.

[Matt]

But like, I feel like that's.

[Alan]

It'll get that back.

[Matt]

Yeah. Easily have a successful box office run. And I honestly think that this could be a film that really gets a lot of viewership on streaming.

[Alan]

That's what I'm thinking is this will have a longer shelf life.

[Matt]

Yeah. Like, I think this is one of those things where, you know, hopefully those people who don't go see it, and especially the ones who. Who don't go see it because it's anime or because for whatever reason, you know, they didn't even give it a chance. Hopefully it'll come across their feed on their TVs one night.

[Alan]

Right. They'll give it a chance at some.

[Matt]

Point and they'll be like, let's see what this is about.

[Alan]

Let's give it a watch.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan]

If they do and they start at the beginning, I think they'll be hooked.

[Matt]

I think so too.

[Alan]

That's actually one of the strong points was the opening.

[Matt]

It gets going fast.

[Alan]

It does.

[Matt]

It gets to the action quickly.

[Alan]

It really does. And it gets you interested and invested in the main character, Hera, very quickly. I do think that they did something I Noticed it, but they did it well enough that it didn't bother me. They used sort of the nostalgia of the Lord of the Rings film very early to get you invested, to get you hooked. And it was a combination of the score, which was a strong rendition of the Rohan theme, which is one of my favorite themes from the films. And I can hear it now with the violins just soaring, you know, and the skyline of Etteras. And those both happen so quickly. And you're just sucked into that very world, even though it's, you know, hundreds of years beforehand.

[Matt]

Right. But it sets the stage. It's like, it does.

[Alan]

It does a really good job of setting the stage.

[Matt]

That music is so iconic. It's like I would kind of be disappointed if they didn't, I know. You know, introduce us in that way, like.

[Alan]

Yeah. And it was done well enough that I didn't feel manipulated, though there were a couple of moments later.

[Matt]

Yeah. And it's not like, you know, speaking of the score, it's not just a rehash of everything. Like, they use the themes.

[Alan]

Yeah.

[Matt]

But there's plenty of. Of new or, you know, you can tell it's like all kind of from the same world. Like, it feels like it's all from the same world, but it's not.

[Alan]

Inner consistency of reality.

[Matt]

Yeah. Yeah. We're not just like, oh, we're at Helm's Deep. Let's play that Helm's Deep music. You know, it's like, oh, this guy's kind of bad. Let's throw in the Nazgul music. Like, they don't do that when it's used. It's very effective.

[Alan]

Did you catch a little bit of the History of the Ring theme at one point?

[Matt]

Yes. When was that? Because I did catch it. I didn't remember where it was.

[Alan]

No. Now I try to remember what it was as well. I think it might have been. Was it when the orcs, who I believe were voiced by Dominic Monahan and Billy Boyd.

[Matt]

They were. Yeah.

[Alan]

When they were talking about the Ring and one of them was like, you know, what does Mordor want with rings? I think it might have been then, but I may be wrong. I can't remember. I'll have to look that one up. This is one. I've only seen the movie once. We are recording this on Thursday the 12th, and I just saw it this afternoon. So I'm gonna have to go see it a second time to catch some more things, but. So this is more of a first impressions review, I suppose.

[Matt]

Did you get a hammer Popcorn bucket.

[Alan]

I did not. I don't think my theater had anything like that.

[Matt]

Oh, that's a bummer.

[Alan]

I did, however, have the theater to myself, which was totally unexpected. Maybe because it was 3:45 on a Thursday.

[Matt]

3:45 on a Thursday is pretty.

[Alan]

It was pretty wild because when I went on to get a ticket, I was actually going to go to a bigger theater about 20 minutes north of me that had it in RPX. Well, originally I had it in IMAX. I had a ticket for IMAX and then I get an email refunding my IMAX. I'm like, what do you mean refunding? Apparently they just decided not to show it in imax. So then I went on to buy a ticket in rpx and every single seat that I clicked on, they were all showing as available. But I'd click on it and hit next and it would say, oh, that seat's chosen. Choose another one. Oh, that seat's chosen. Choose another one. Very weird. Must have been bugged. I don't think the thing got sold out, but. So I couldn't see it at that larger theater with RPX up the road. I'm going to try to do that next week. So I saw it at my local, which is a little smaller. It was still good. It was still a fantastic, you know, sound and experience everything. Yeah, you know, sound placement was really good.

[Matt]

Yeah. This sound design is one of the things that I have been raving about because, yes, when I saw it, I was like, I've never heard an animated film sound this good.

[Alan]

Yes.

[Matt]

Like, I have four kids. I've seen a lot of animated films.

[Alan]

I have seen a lot of animated films. I've seen every Disney, Pixar and Dreamworks film that has come out in the last 15 years.

[Matt]

Yes, yes. And none of them, none, none of them guys sound as good as this.

[Alan]

Fire. The sounds of fire. The sound.

[Matt]

The sounds of battle.

[Alan]

Battle. The arrows. Whistling. Thunder of the hooves, like the stampeding of the mumac. I mean, all of that.

[Matt]

It sounds like the live action films.

[Alan]

And that's actually where I have one tiny gripe. You remember we mentioned that we didn't like that scene with the watcher in the water. They used the exact sound from that film. That sort of. I can't. I'm not going to try to duplicate it. But listen to that scene. Watch that scene in the Jackson films and then watch that scene again and you'll hear the exact, exact sound like they pulled directly from it.

[Matt]

So it's a sound Effect of the watcher.

[Alan]

Yes, it's a sound effect of the watcher in the water from the anime or from the live action film.

[Matt]

Interesting.

[Alan]

And that pulled me right out of it. Like, why did you just, why didn't you just design a sound that sounded similar but it was, it sounded like it was lifted straight from it. I could be wrong. I'm willing to be proven wrong. I would have to do a back to back comparison. But it was so obvious to me right off the nose.

[Matt]

That was like interesting. Okay, so I didn't notice that. So now next time I go, I'm going to take my kids. Listen for that. I think you'll hear it probably tomorrow night. Tomorrow night I think I'll. I'm going to take my, my boys.

[Alan]

But sound design as a whole was really, really good.

[Matt]

But sound design as a whole. Yeah, like it's the exact same team that did the sound design for the film.

[Alan]

So like that doesn't surprise me.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah. Like, and that was another thing I heard, you know, when they had like their panel at New York ComicCon and stuff was most anime films cannot afford to get sound design from the guys from this level. Yeah, yeah, they're not, they're not mixing their, their anime films at Park Road post production.

[Alan]

No, they're not.

[Matt]

You know.

[Alan]

Yeah, it was really, really good sound design. I think that helped sort of immerse me in the world.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan]

Because you do lose a tiny bit with anime. You lose a tiny bit of. And this would be true of animation in general. I don't mean anime specifically. You lose a tiny bit of that sort of human connection to the characters.

[Matt]

Yeah. You know, there is, there is kind of like a barrier just. Yeah, a bit of a barrier.

[Alan]

Barrier. Yeah.

[Matt]

Like it feels, it feels like a, you know, like a retelling of a legend in Middle Earth. Like, I think using Miranda Otto as the narrator really helps. Yep.

[Alan]

About to get to casting. Yeah. So that's, that's a good segue.

[Matt]

She connects, you know, the films. But then like, I honestly just kind of expected her to be at the very beginning, maybe at the very end or something. But they actually, they pepper her throughout in some really effective ways.

[Alan]

Yeah. To remind you that you're listening to or taking part in a retelling of this story of this legend.

[Matt]

Well, and things that can be hard to depict on screen.

[Alan]

Yes, that or you need a narrator.

[Matt]

So one of the things that I mentioned, I alluded to in my spoiler free review that I would have liked to see more was Helm, after his sons have died, because they kind of. They use that to be, like, this mysterious, you know, Helm disappears, and then that's when he goes on his, like, punching sprees, you know, And. And so I. There's part of me that. That wishes we would have seen Helm's mental state.

[Alan]

Yes.

[Matt]

And, like, seen him grow gaunt with grief and famine.

[Alan]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Right. But I also see, like, what they did was effective in that he disappears, and then it's like, yeah, where did he go? And then, like.

[Alan]

Yeah, you get a sense of mystery and of building.

[Matt]

Yeah, you get this mystery and like.

[Alan]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Like, kind of creepiness, like, you see from the dunlending perspective, which is very compelling.

[Alan]

I did like that.

[Matt]

Where they are, like, freaking out. Out.

[Alan]

Yeah.

[Matt]

And saying, you know, he's not a man. He's a wraith, and he's, like, eating, you know, the dead and stuff.

[Alan]

Are people.

[Matt]

Yeah. Like. Like, it's freaky. And they show, like, his silhouette, you know, backlit. And, you know, his. He's just, like, kind of creeping, sort.

[Alan]

Of walking a little unnaturally.

[Matt]

Yes. Yeah. It's like he's almost floating. Yeah. He's slouched, but he's, like, floating kind of thing. So. Yeah. So I'm. I'm kind of like. I really like what they did. There's part of me that wishes that we would have seen him grow gaunt with grief. But. But Eowyn, you know, kind of narrates and explains. You know, I think she might even use the word gaunt. I can't remember.

[Alan]

She does. Yeah.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan]

Because she uses the words right out of the text.

[Matt]

Yeah. Because I think it is gaunt with grief and famine. So. Yeah, that's. That's one of those elements, you know, to circle back to where I started this. That's one of those. Those moments where I feel like the narrator. The narrator comes in really handy and. And I don't think. Again, I don't think a narrator in that sense would work as well in live action either. I think it's more.

[Alan]

No, you would.

[Matt]

More applicable and animated.

[Alan]

Yeah. Yeah, I think so, too.

[Matt]

Like, I think we've gotten used to narrators in certain types of films or in a prologue, but in a film like Lord of the Rings, I don't think you would just throw one in the middle like this.

[Alan]

Can you imagine a literal word for word adaptation of Lord of the Rings where you have a narrator describing the landscape all the time?

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan]

I mean, that's just. The canons of narrative art cannot be wholly different, but they are Different. Yeah. I think the choice of narrator was a good one. I think that's a really good storytelling device. But I want to talk about. And use that as a segue to talk about the casting.

[Matt]

The.

[Alan]

The fact that they used Miranda Otto is, of course, brilliant. Ties us to the films, gives us sort of the idea that, you know, Eowyn, the film Eowyn, that we knew Miranda Otto 20 years ago, knew about the story of Hera, and would have heard about Hera growing up. And she's telling us about this story now in her later days. And it's just a fantastic way of connecting us to it. But that brings me around to casting because. Because, of course, Miranda Otto was a natural fit for that.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan]

I have to say, the voice acting. I say casting, but really it's not about, like, ooh, get this person in because they look like this, or whatever. Right. It is all about the voice acting.

[Matt]

It's all about the voice. Yeah.

[Alan]

And, wow. I thought the casting on. That was spot on. I mean, obviously the only one that I actually knew that I've seen or heard before is Brian Cox, who. Yeah, Brian Cox, who does helm Hammerhand and absolutely flipping owns.

[Matt]

Does a great job.

[Alan]

Yeah, that was great.

[Matt]

He proves, you know, on. Online, you'll see people kind of like, freak out when actors don't know, like, the source material and stuff. And it's like. Like he kind of proves the fact that, you know, he doesn't need to know the details. Like, he knows what kind of character Helm Hammerhand is and, you know.

[Alan]

Yeah. He's not a complicated character, let's be honest.

[Matt]

Yeah. I'm sure he gets little tidbits of direction here and there. And then it's like, okay, colonies. It's Brian Cox. Like, he has enough to get on with. And then you just got to. He's got him to do his thing, you know.

[Alan]

Yeah, he did really, really well. I thought that was, for me, the best performance in the film. But the woman that played Hera was just really fantastic.

[Matt]

Gaia wise. Yeah.

[Alan]

Just adored the way she carried herself, you know, vocally.

[Matt]

Yes. Yeah.

[Alan]

You really felt everything from the doubt and the sort of the tenderness that she had with her father and then the strength. I mean, man, I don't know about you, but I got chills when she's challenging Wolf and Wolf says, you think I'm afraid of you? You should be.

[Matt]

Yeah. You should be.

[Alan]

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[Matt]

Another thing that I. I mentioned in my review is I love how much of that Anglo Saxon.

[Alan]

Yes.

[Matt]

Like bravery in the face of death.

[Alan]

Yes.

[Matt]

You know that. That Rohan, sort of the Beowulf moment.

[Alan]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Yes, the b. Yeah. The Beowulfian element, which I. I think I just recently saw an interview where Philippa mentioned them going back to Anglo Saxon tales and looking. She said, like she took another look at Beowulf, you know, as they were.

[Alan]

Oh, there's some Beowulf moments in there.

[Matt]

Yeah. You can tell. And like, I love that stuff. You know, obviously I'm a big fan of like the Rohirrim in the books and the films.

[Alan]

Yes.

[Matt]

And part of it is that that Anglo Saxon nature where they. They just are always.

[Alan]

Doesn't matter the odds. I'm.

[Matt]

It does not matter the odds. And like, they're always bringing the br. And like, you know, like, gosh, just thinking of reading Aomer when. When he thinks that all hope is lost and he's screaming death and everything and.

[Alan]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Oh, gosh, it's. And we get elements of that here where it's like, do.

[Alan]

Oh, especially with. With Helm's Last Stand.

[Matt]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Alan]

That moment is.

[Matt]

Again, the sound design when he punches someone is so satisfying.

[Alan]

Every punch. You feel it to your core. Yeah.

[Matt]

It's so satisfying. But yeah. And then. And then when. When Hera faces off against Wolf at the end and, you know, it's like before Freyloff shows up.

[Alan]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Which I'm sure we'll get into that because that's a departure from the books.

[Alan]

Yes.

[Matt]

But before Frailof shows up, it's just her riding out, as you know. And I love the voiceover, you know, recalls the shield maiden.

[Alan]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Line where it says, when all the men were gone, men were dead.

[Alan]

These women defended Rohan when nobody else could.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's so good. And it's just like you know, she's just charging into what is essentially her death. And.

[Alan]

And she knows it. She knows full well at that point that she is going to die in order to protect her people, which is such.

[Matt]

Just in hopes of protecting. Yeah, in hopes of protecting her.

[Alan]

Just to give them a better chance of surviving this escape.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah.

[Alan]

Oh, yeah. Glorious voice acting and even the villains. I thought Wolf did a great job.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan]

Really. You come to hate that guy, you know, at the beginning, you want to feel sorry for him. He just watched his dad get killed, then he's been rejected. Then he gets. The minute that he's got her captured and he pulls that weapon on her, you're like, I'm done.

[Matt]

Yeah. He, like, slices. Slices her cheek.

[Alan]

Just even pulling the. Pulling the blade on her is enough for me.

[Matt]

Right, Right. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[Alan]

We're done now. I'm not going to feel sorry for you anymore.

[Matt]

I would have liked to see a little more of Wolf prior to Freca getting killed.

[Alan]

Yes.

[Matt]

Like, I think that was the one thing I. I was curious about because. And we also don't get this in the book. So I'm not like.

[Alan]

No, we don't get hardly any of this in the book. Yeah.

[Matt]

Like, I'm not saying. I'm not saying, like, oh, they. They left this out from the books or anything, because we don't know there either.

[Alan]

But everything that was in the books is in there. Right? Yeah. There's a lot of other stuff filling in the blanks. Yeah.

[Matt]

Right. So, yeah. Wolf. I wonder if, like, maybe a scene with Wolf and his father would have.

[Alan]

Maybe before they came to come to see.

[Matt]

That's what I was thinking.

[Alan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We get the flashback when he's young, when he's a kid and he and Hera are playing. And that's great.

[Matt]

Frecka's not even in that scene, though, but.

[Alan]

Right. And that's the thing. I still want to see Wolf as a young man as, like, you know, I want to see a little bit more about him. I think that would have been great to see more of that villain arc.

[Matt]

Yeah. I was just curious, like, what. What's their relationship like? Frecka doesn't seem like dad of the year material.

[Alan]

No, he doesn't, does he?

[Matt]

But Wolf is pretty upset, so it's like, did they have a pretty decent relationship? Is it. It's believable that he would get mad. Like, I don't think it's unbelievable or anything.

[Alan]

And he already feels sort of on the outs. Remember, he does mention something about, you know, how he's always been, you know, mocked for his. His half done lending blood.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan]

You know, and he felt like he doesn't belong. He's not really part of Rohan. It would have been nice to see some of that, to understand a little bit more. Yeah. But really, I mean, that's just a small guy, but he's a.

[Matt]

He's a pretty, pretty good villain. And I like that. I think that we get a bit. There's enough there to realize that at least in the beginning that wolf isn't like 100% in the wrong for wanting revenge.

[Alan]

Yeah. You know, his dad's been killed.

[Matt]

There's enough gray area there. Yeah. It's like, you know, and I think because there's so many ways that they could have taken the punch, like they could have made the punch just like this glorious moment and like made Helm out to be unquestionably the hero of that moment. And I think they. They did a pretty good balance there where it's like, yeah, oh crap. I just kind of messed up maybe, but I'm not gonna admit it.

[Alan]

And you can see that. Right? I mean, Helms, like, you saw it happen. I only hit him the one time.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan]

You know, I didn't. This isn't. This was my intent. I didn't mean to kill him.

[Matt]

Right. But it doesn't. It doesn't matter. But yeah, and then like, I like the, you know, so. So you can kind of understand where Wolf's coming from. Yeah, initially.

[Alan]

But boy, it changes. Yeah.

[Matt]

But then it changes fast. And then it's like, yeah, like, dude, you went off the deep end, man.

[Alan]

Really off the deep end. Some other casting stars or, you know, some of the really, really outstanding, I thought, vocal performances. The woman that played her handmaid, what was her character's name? Olwen.

[Matt]

Olwen, yeah.

[Alan]

Olwen.

[Matt]

So she was actually played by Andy Serkis wife, Lorraine Ashbourne, huh? Yeah.

[Alan]

I had no idea. She did a fantastic job. I really liked her character. I sort of saw her as actually one of the shield maidens. And when Hera said they're not all gone, I'm thinking of her.

[Matt]

Yeah, that's what I was thinking too.

[Alan]

She takes charge, man.

[Matt]

Yeah, I. I also like, you know, speaking of shield mains, I like that the concept of shield maidens is vague. Like they didn't try to over explain.

[Alan]

Nope.

[Matt]

And like lay it all out there. They left it vague as it is in Tolkien.

[Alan]

Right.

[Matt]

You know, we know that there were. That shield maidens were a thing.

[Alan]

Exactly.

[Matt]

And there was a time when women rode to war and that's just, that's all we know. And like, I kind of like that they also left it vague, like Tolkien does.

[Alan]

Yeah. And, and the response about it, you know, those were darker times that the eventual traitor ends up, you know, he's the one who says, oh, but those were darker times. And you know, we don't need to do that. That really was the implication in the text, you know, that. Yeah, this was. Yeah, it was a very desperate time when the women rode off to combat.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan]

But which.

[Matt]

Spoiler alert. This becomes a pretty dark time very quickly.

[Alan]

Yeah. When you got three large mumma kill coming your way.

[Matt]

Yeah, that's. That's the thing where like, you know, the folk folks that complain about head of fighting, like, oh my goodness. It's a pretty desperate situation, guys. I'm pretty sure this constitutes a all hands on deck kind of situation here.

[Alan]

It really does. And you've hit on something that's really annoyed me in niches of the fandom coming into this film. And it's this complaint about Hera being a main character. Oh, Tolkien didn't even give her a name. Why is she important? You know what? Stop with that. Stop with that utter nonsense. There were a lot of things that Tolkien didn't explain or tell us full stories about.

[Matt]

That doesn't mean that they're not worth exploring.

[Alan]

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And this is. Hera is absolutely consistent with the women that Tolkien has written.

[Matt]

Yeah, she is 100% consistent, especially the Rohirrim ones.

[Alan]

Exactly. She's consistent with Eowyn number one. But I was absolutely thinking, even though they named one of her brothers Haleth. Well, because Tolkien actually named one of his brothers Haleth, she reminded me of Haleth of the holiday right in the first age. Totally leading her people and not being pledged to any man. And I just really loved it.

[Matt]

It was.

[Alan]

Yeah, I thought it was solid. And I just don't get this immediate sort of, I don't know, kind of.

[Matt]

Like a knee jerk reaction like.

[Alan]

Yes. Yeah. Like a visceral reaction to like, oh, I can't. It's a woman.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan]

It's like, it's like, dude, get out your basement, man.

[Matt]

I've had so many people comment on my, my review that, that say things that are like this movie does, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, you have clearly not watched the movie.

[Alan]

Clearly. Yeah.

[Matt]

You're just parroting people's like, fears, I guess. Whatever.

[Alan]

These are the same people who didn't want, you know, Rey in the Star wars films because she's a girl.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan]

These are the same people. And we can still criticize those films, right?

[Matt]

Oh, yeah. Believe me, I'll criticize the sequels. Yeah.

[Alan]

But, you know, this idea that we can't have a female character be a warrior is just absurd.

[Matt]

It is.

[Alan]

Anybody who says that has clearly not.

[Matt]

Read Tolkien, especially in the situation that we're dealing with, like.

[Alan]

Well, and the culture we're dealing with. The Rohirrim.

[Matt]

Yes, the Rohirrim. Like, I and I recently did a video on warrior women in Tolkien.

[Alan]

Oh, man, that's awesome.

[Matt]

And the Rohirrim and the Eotheod have, like, it is said that, you know, they're remembered in songs, you know, of people who remember the north, which is when they were the Eotheod. And so that's even beyond the references that we get to the shield maidens of Rohan.

[Alan]

Yeah. It goes back to before Kyrion and Aoral. Right.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan]

Well, heck. And even. Even in. We were talking about just a minute ago with the writers, the fact that there were women in the north that were remembered in these songs not that long ago, when we were doing the stuff on the slave revolt, if you.

[Matt]

Remember correctly, the Easterlings.

[Alan]

The Easterlings. Their women fought, too.

[Matt]

Yeah. It's not this crazy idea. Yeah, no, sorry, that's a bit of a tangent for you folks.

[Alan]

I know, but it feels like one we had to touch on because.

[Matt]

Yeah, it's just. Because it's. There's just been a lot of noise about that.

[Alan]

But that's the thing. It's a lot of noise from a very small amount of vocal people. I don't think it's a large portion of the fandom.

[Matt]

I think Hera is handled really well. Like, really well, you know, because. Because there were. There were. And I. I'll say, you know, not everybody who had reservations about Hera being the main character falls into that category. I think that's important to say, like, there is a genuine. Or at least, you know, there was, I think, in. In my mind, a genuine concern that, okay, you're. You're expanding what is a semi original character, essentially, because it's. It's just a mentioned character with no name. And you're, like, creating this person as the main character. So there. There is a natural concern, like, oh, are you gonna push the canon characters to the side?

[Alan]

Ah.

[Matt]

In order to focus on this person. But the thing is that they didn't push the other characters to the side. Helm does all the things. Yeah, all the things that he's supposed.

[Alan]

To do 100% and more, you know, And.

[Matt]

And like, her losing her brothers is an emotional gut punch.

[Alan]

Oh, my gosh.

[Matt]

And losing her dad. And like, I loved what they did with Helm. Pushing her into the door and closing the doors and being like, you're their leader now.

[Alan]

You do this, they need you.

[Matt]

Kind of like how Theoden does to Eowyn when she leads them to Dun Harrow in the books. Yeah. And like. Yeah, I just. I just thought that it was so well done and believable and the timing of everything, like, it builds up to the moments where. Where she actually fights with the sword and everything and fight faces off against Wolf. Like. Yeah, I thought they did a really good job.

[Alan]

I did too. And you know, you mentioned three of the most poignant moments in the story. It was the. When her brothers were killed and when she thought she'd lost her father. Those were, like you said, gut punches. And yet those of us who know the story knew those had to be coming. I mean, we know that the brothers die.

[Matt]

Oh, yeah.

[Alan]

The text makes that very clear. So every time they were in peril, I kept waiting for them to get killed.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan]

And you know, trying to steel myself against their loss. And I'll tell you what, they got me real good with the first one when he was shot through the throat.

[Matt]

Yeah. No, I didn't.

[Alan]

I gasped. I was like, I did too.

[Matt]

Yeah, that was one of those. That sucked the air out.

[Alan]

It was just like, totally, totally. I mean, the second one, you expected it because the circumstances were like, oh, they're gonna kill him, you know.

[Matt]

Right. Yeah, with the horse. The horse kind of like giving out and stuff. I was like, oh, gosh.

[Alan]

Oh. In fact, I actually thought that was the last we saw of him. I thought, okay, they're going to kill him off screen. We're going to find out about it. But once they had him as a prisoner, I thought, okay, they're gonna kill him. You know, this is. This is a Gelmir moment in the first age. You know, they're gonna kill him right there. We're lucky that they don't actually do the Gelmir thing where they cut off his and hands and gouged out his eyes and then killed him.

[Matt]

Oh, gosh.

[Alan]

Yeah. Don't forget Tolkien can write some pretty disturbing stuff.

[Matt]

Oh, yeah, no, he definitely can. And like, I actually credit them with showing restraint there. Cause they could have easily.

[Alan]

We didn't need to see that. And I'm glad we didn't.

[Matt]

We didn't need to. And like, it. It hits just as hard.

[Alan]

Oh, and maybe even harder because you're seeing their reactions to it. Right. Seeing Helms and Harrah's reaction, and it's.

[Matt]

Like, you know, what happened. There's a power in letting the audience's imagination, you know, fill in the blanks at stuff like violence that I've always.

[Alan]

Been a big appreciator of, 100%. I'm super glad they didn't go graphic on that. Let's talk a little bit about story. I think we've already pointed out the fact that they do a really good job of making sure that everything that happens in the actual text of the story happens here.

[Matt]

Just about. Yeah.

[Alan]

Yeah.

[Matt]

I mean, they check almost all of the boxes.

[Alan]

Yeah. Virtually all. They've added a lot of things. Of course, they've had to fill in the blanks to turn this into a full story. Let's talk about some of those additions and the ones that we liked and the ones that we didn't. I think we mentioned the snow troll a minute ago. I liked that. That was fun. Yeah, that was a great scene. That showed us a lot about what Helm was about in that stage.

[Matt]

Oh, my gosh.

[Alan]

I liked the orcs. I like that they didn't rely on the ring gimmick. They mentioned it and then went away from it.

[Matt]

Yes.

[Alan]

Thank you for that. I was so afraid that you were going to spend 10 minutes on this and that we were going to get some young golem looking. I mean, it really was just like, they're going to go off on this and they didn't. And it was great.

[Matt]

No, it was just a. Yeah, it was just a little.

[Alan]

Just a brief little moment.

[Matt]

And, you know, it basically served to show why the Dunlendings would think that Helm was eating their dead.

[Alan]

Yes. Yes.

[Matt]

Because it's the orcs that are eating their dead, but they don't realize it. And so they're. That's how. It's kind of cool how it shows how the legend comes to be, you know, from. From this unrelated, Like.

[Alan]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Orcs that are. That are just feasting on all these, you know, provided dead people, they're like, hey, free buffet. Sweet. Okay.

[Alan]

I liked that. I appreciated their attempt at explaining the presence of Mumakil. I ended up accepting it and just enjoying them because it was fun to see.

[Matt]

But, well. Cause they're mercenaries.

[Alan]

They're mercenaries. But they're mercenaries. It says they're variogs, which. They were mercenaries as well, like the Variogs of Khand. But the thing is, Khand is like way far away. Like there's no way that the Dunlendings.

[Matt]

Oh, I didn't realize that they actually name dropped Khand.

[Alan]

Well, they didn't name drop Khand. They name dropped the Variogs. But the Variogs are from Khand. That's who's from Khand.

[Matt]

Yeah, I didn't realize they said Varyags.

[Alan]

Yeah, they said Varyag mercenaries. Yeah.

[Matt]

Interesting.

[Alan]

They also said Southrons, which is wrong because it's Southrons, but that's okay.

[Matt]

Now there is like a four year gap between Frecka being killed and Wolf coming back, which they do say. So like do they do say for four years or four winter, however they.

[Alan]

Say you're like shadow in the night or something like that.

[Matt]

Yeah. So like it's not in my mind, it's not crazy to think that he could have gone and recruited these mercenaries and they could have made their way up in the course of four years.

[Alan]

That's just so far. He wouldn't have even known they existed. I mean, I think he would have spent that time building the alliance with the Dunlendings, you know, with, with the, the Hill men, you know. But I don't know that he would have thought, well, I want to go past the Easterlings and past Mordor, all the way down on the other side of Umbar and find Khand where they've got these great mercenaries that they call the Varyachs.

[Matt]

That's right.

[Alan]

I struggled with that.

[Matt]

I wonder. Yeah, because my assumption, you know, because we know that Corsairs, like in the books, the Corsairs are attacking the coast of Gondor.

[Alan]

Correct. All the way up to the mouths of the Isen, which is to the west of the West March.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan]

So they could conceivably with Wolf.

[Matt]

Right, well, and it says that they allied with Wolf. Like in the text, it says they.

[Alan]

Which is why it was interesting when they said the Variogs, the Variag mercenaries. I was like, right.

[Matt]

I would have thought, I thought for sure they were going to say the Corsairs, maybe Haradrim. But yeah, so my, my thought was always like, oh, that's how the Mummic, the Mumikil will get there is because of the Corsairs.

[Alan]

And that would have made a little sense, except that also then you have the issue of would they have been transported by boat? That would have been hard to do. Okay, so I know it's done. I know it was done historically.

[Matt]

Yes. Because, because Kelly Rice and I looked this up and and discovered that, yes, Caesar at one point transported them by boat. So could be doable.

[Alan]

It's possible. These are bigger than normal elephants, though. Can we be clear? The Moo Mash, the Mumakil are bigger even than I am.

[Matt]

Like I said, four years is a lot of time. You could mark that.

[Alan]

Yes, a lot of time. And I ended up letting it go because the way they incorporated them in the story was good. I mean, let's be honest, it was a really intense moment with the battles with the Mumakill.

[Matt]

It's one of those situations where, I don't know, I'll forgive something in a movie if it's really cool.

[Alan]

Exactly. And that's kind of what I did. Same with her climbing the mountain with her ice axes and, you know, like, does she really have that kind of mountaineering experience as the Princess of Rohan as she's climbing ice mountains? I don't know. But whatever. I let that go because it was cool, you know? But the thing I mentioned on earlier that I didn't really let go because it wasn't cool was the Watcher in the water. I didn't like that scene at all. Like you said, I don't think it added anything. She just could have escaped the Mumak in the forest and then been captured. We didn't need to have the Watcher. And I feel like sometimes they were doing those as callbacks and falling into that prequel trap of, like, let's make sure we use this thing that's in the movie that we're referencing.

[Matt]

I heard that part of the tradition of. Of, like, anime is to have, like, monster versus monster stuff that.

[Alan]

Yeah, I guess actually that makes sense.

[Matt]

A Mumic versus a Watcher is kind of. Kind of playing into that trope. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, it was such a. It's such an odd thing. Like, of all the. Of all the things to. To kind of reference, like, the Watcher is. Is kind of an odd one.

[Alan]

It was an odd one when. When she said, doesn't she know what creature, you know, creatures here in that forest? I thought, oh, are we going to see ants?

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan]

I literally thought we were going to see an ENT take down a Mumak, not a Watcher.

[Matt]

Yeah. Because I wasn't sure, like, what forest, And I'm still curious what forest that was. Yeah, that's the thing.

[Alan]

I almost wonder whether it was one of the forests along the White Mountains. You know, a lot of those forests, you know, might not even be around by the time we get to the War of The ring. I don't know. That was an odd part of the story, I admit.

[Matt]

Now, what did you think about. So the ending is tweaked. It's, you know, a little different in the book, so. Yeah, in the books. For those who aren't familiar, Freilof marches from Dunharrow. Surprise attack on Etterus, where Wolf is.

[Alan]

Where he kills Wolf.

[Matt]

Kills wolf.

[Alan]

Yeah.

[Matt]

In. In the film, which I actually. I kind of liked Helm's armor being delivered to Frelor.

[Alan]

I like Helm's armor and I liked. Because of the power of the legend, I liked what that did to the Dunlendings.

[Matt]

I did like that.

[Alan]

Oh, crap, he's back.

[Matt]

Right where they're like, wait, that guy who just died is back?

[Alan]

Like, that was really good.

[Matt]

That was cool.

[Alan]

But that also called us back to the moment in the films where Amer leads the charge of horses and Gandalf down the slope.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan]

It's another one of those. I don't know. I let that one go again because it was well done. But.

[Matt]

And I appreciate, too, that they're not one for wanting these, like. Yeah, and. And, yeah, maybe it's not a big enough difference for some people, but the fact that this is turned into a night scene and, like, with the moon.

[Alan]

Rising behind them instead of the sun. Yeah, right.

[Matt]

And, like, the mood of it is different. It's very not, you know, because I. I felt that. That eeriness and there. I felt like it was, you know, playing into that dread of the Dunlendings rather than like the more eucatastrophe of Eomer and Gandalf, maybe.

[Alan]

Or can I just give a shout out to Eric and Brand? Poor guy never makes any adaptations.

[Matt]

Erkenbrand.

[Alan]

It's actually Eric and Brand who does it in the books.

[Matt]

It is in the books.

[Alan]

Yeah. No, you're right. The tweaking of that. It made sense. It would have been a little anticlimactic to have Frealaf come and take him at Etteras. I felt like they obviously wanted the battle and the movie to center around the Hornburg, or Helm's Deep, as it would come to be called. So I actually was perfectly fine with that part of the ending. And I was surprisingly okay and actually very. I kind of wept a little bit with Saruman being presented to Freloff, you know, the new resident at Isengard.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan]

Because of course, I knew what Philippa Boyens had said, that we're using dialogue that was actually spoken. It's not AI generated. This is actually A recording of Christopher Lee.

[Matt]

Yeah, because they still. They still have all that adr.

[Alan]

All that stuff that was on the cutting room floor. All the. Yeah, exactly. And that was. That was really cool.

[Matt]

And it feels good. Yeah, it does.

[Alan]

Because that is in the text. Freloff welcomes. It would have been nice to maybe see the Steward of Gondor at the time, who was, I believe, was that under Boromir's stewardship. Not Boromir, son of Denethor. Well, yes, Boromir son of Denethor, but Boromir the first. Son of Denethor the first.

[Matt]

I think it might have been.

[Alan]

I think it might have been.

[Matt]

But, yeah, Yeah, I think it could have been done just as effectively, like, without using Christopher Lee's audio. Like, okay, before people start yelling at me for being, like, heartless and stuff, I'm just saying, like, I think they could have done it with a montage and then. Or the voiceover or whatever and not had to, like, put his audio in there. But I'm not. I'm not a heartless person. Of course, I loved hearing Chris release voice coming out of Saruman. And I'm glad that there again, they exercised a level of discernment and limited it to a single line, you know, where they. They didn't overdo it and chop a bunch of stuff up, you know, because there is, you know, like, we were talking about the voice acting earlier. There's a performance element to it, and I think you can. You can do something and pay homage and. And have a really touching tribute to. To Christopher Lee. But, you know, if you. If you would have tried to put together four lines or something, then you're. You're kind of like, yeah, you would have been.

[Alan]

You could have gone too far. And they. They didn't go too far, but I think.

[Matt]

I think they hit it. They hit the right amount, you know.

[Alan]

Did hit the right amount. And by the way, I have a quick correction. It was a B, but it was not Boromir. Boromir, of course, was actually the father of Kyrian. So it was a long time before it was Baron. That was Steward.

[Matt]

I knew it was another famous name.

[Alan]

Another famous name, right. It was Baron that was the Steward of Gondor at the time. It would have been nice to see, you know, Gondor represented. But I get it. It was a movie about Rohan, so we don't need to see.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah, no, we didn't.

[Alan]

Yeah. I think really. I mean, really, the watcher's the only scene that made me like, oh, I really don't. This scene didn't. Did nothing and sort of took me out of it. That's really about it. I don't have any other major gripes, but I did feel like a few times they went to the well of either exact camera angles or very, very similar camera angles or exact dialogue. When Hera and her, I think her brothers and her handmaiden were out there before they encountered the Mummuk. They found the dead souther in there and the crows. And she says, krebine from Dudland. That took me right out and sent me right back to the films. And it's like, can you. Yeah, they're Krebine from Dunlen. But can you say it differently? Can you deliver the line differently than they did in the films 20 plus years ago?

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan]

Sometimes. And it's tough because I feel for the filmmakers in this because they do want to tap into.

[Matt]

Right. There's a balance.

[Alan]

Yeah, exactly. That nostalgic feeling for these films and to pay homage, like you said, but not to ape or to pull too hard and, and that's such a subjective line. Like how much is too much? For me, Caribbean from Dunland was too much. And for me, the sounds of the watcher in the water and that top down angle of watching the watcher's mouth open up, which was also, you know, just exact camera angle from Jackson films, those are the ones that were for me a little bit too much.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan]

But as a whole, I thought the film was really, really good.

[Matt]

I like, I did too. Yeah, no, I, I really liked it. For me, the, the one. This, this is me just like I'm going to fully own the fact that this is a nitpick in the moment. I was like, when, when Helm is rallying up the troops to go out and fight, he. He has them like, they chant death.

[Alan]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Matt]

And that's such a synonymous with like Theoden and that situation on the Pollenar. I was like, I don't know that it doesn't carry the same gravitas as when Theoden does it because this is Helm, he's a much more, you know, what's the word? Prideful guy. Like he's going into this fight confident.

[Alan]

I feel like if he's saying death, he's saying it's death to them.

[Matt]

Right. Yeah.

[Alan]

Whereas I think Theoden with the Rohirrim at the Polynor is saying to death. We're going to death. But that's okay because we need to do this.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah. It's like all we have Left is our death kind of thing. Yeah. So it was just like that. That felt like that was maybe trying to strike the same.

[Alan]

Yeah.

[Matt]

The same thing. But it's. But the situation didn't. Didn't fit. Yeah.

[Alan]

Right.

[Matt]

And so other than that, like, his. His speech and stuff was.

[Alan]

Was great.

[Matt]

Like, you know.

[Alan]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Like I said, I'm picking nits at.

[Alan]

This point, but it's fair. I mean, those. Those are the challenges that a filmmaker has when they're working in an established universe and telling a story that.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan]

You know, the story itself may not have been told before, but the stories connected to that story have been told before. Yeah.

[Matt]

Yeah. Man. I've. I've been excited for this film since it was announced. You know, even when. When, like I said, not being a big anime guy. No, I was like, I think. I think there's potential there. Like, I knew there was potential in the story.

[Alan]

Oh, yeah.

[Matt]

And I was like, great story. I feel like in anime form. Like, I feel like I could still really like it even though I'm not an anime guy.

[Alan]

Yeah.

[Matt]

And so my. My hype levels just kind of steadily built for this one because I've never, along the way, really come across anything that made that stumble. Like, I've just been.

[Alan]

Yeah.

[Matt]

You know, kind of consistently looking forward to this movie and so to, like, to go in and just see a movie that I. I feel like has a lot of common sense when it comes to telling a Tolkien story.

[Alan]

Yeah.

[Matt]

And, like, pulling from the right things and like, obviously we have. We have little gripes here and there, things that we would have done differently, but, you know, pulling from different elements of. Of the Rohan lore, pulling from things from Anglo Saxon, you know, culture and writings, like, stuff that is just core Rohan and stuff that inspired Tolkien himself.

[Alan]

Right.

[Matt]

I just, I. I feel like this movie is a win.

[Alan]

Yes, it is. How does it feel to. You mentioned the hype and how it suddenly. How does it feel to not be disappointed?

[Matt]

It feels great. Like.

[Alan]

Yeah.

[Matt]

You know, like, I. I think the way I put it in my spoiler for your view was, you know, it. It just feels good. Like, I. After watching the movie, like, I don't just feel like, oh, yeah, I'm. I'm optimistic for the future. Like, no, I have, like, a measure of confidence in the future. Like. Like these are the same people who are going to be doing Hunt for Gollum and stuff, and they've shown a sensibility here and just, you know, just solid storytelling. It's just solid.

[Alan]

Yeah. So if I were to rank this, let's wrap this up and let's do like an overall rating. Yeah, I'm, I'm not going to give it a 10. You know, this isn't the best movie ever, but it's a really solid movie. I think I'm giving this an 8, maybe out of 10 feel.

[Matt]

It's funny because I gave it an 8 out of 10 in my, in my spoiler feature. You.

[Alan]

Yeah, I was thinking between seven and a half to, to eight, but eight feels good.

[Matt]

Yeah, it's the only one I've done so far is my spoiler free one. I haven't done a full spoiler review. And like I said, on repeat viewing I might, I might tweak the score a little bit, but I feel I went with eight because I was like, I'm not going lower than this.

[Alan]

Yeah, I might have gone seven and a half, but I felt like an eight was more fair. It's justified.

[Matt]

Like for me, I, and I know we, we score things different. Like I've, I've said before, like, I know that I have more affinity for An Unexpected Journey. In particular, I have a lot of.

[Alan]

Affinity for the Unexpected Journey. The first half of.

[Matt]

I know you've said like your minute limit or whatever it's.

[Alan]

The rest of it's not bad though. I mean, that's the thing. Like if the first half of Unexpected Journey is a seven and a half or an eight and the second half is like a six and a half, those are both much, much, much better scores than they're going to get with Desolation, Smog or Battle of the five.

[Matt]

Right? Yeah, see, but I even think those scores are low. I think the beginning of Unexpected Journey is delightful. But we're not here to debate that.

[Alan]

No, we're not Hobbit films.

[Matt]

But yes, so. So yeah, I think I went with eight because I was like, I will give this a solid, enthusiastic 8 out of 10.

[Alan]

Yes.

[Matt]

And not second guess it whatsoever. Like, I will.

[Alan]

I agree.

[Matt]

Like, it feels good to, to have the confidence, you know, in my score too, to be like, no, I'm going to defend this. I'm going with that thing.

[Alan]

You know, it's like, you know, you mentioned Unexpected Journey and again, I'm not trying to dwell on that. I will watch An Unexpected Journey again every now and then. I don't watch the other two. I haven't watched Desolation of Smaug or Battle of the Five Armies. I've watched them once after the extended editions came out to watch the extended edition but those aren't good enough movies for me to watch a second time, so I don't. But I do watch Unexpected Journey every once in a while. I'm gonna watch this movie again. I'm gonna go see it in the theaters again. Which I can't say about any of the Hobbit movies.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan]

And I can't say about any movie, really, since the Lord of the Rings. I don't think. I'm trying to think. There's been a movie that I've seen more than once in the movie theater since Lord of the Rings, man. I think so.

[Matt]

Yeah. Now that you say that, I don't know if I have either. I was trying to think if maybe, like, Episode seven of, like, the new Star wars movies.

[Alan]

Maybe. Maybe. I don't know. I'm trying to remember.

[Matt]

I think even that one I only saw once. And, like, that was one where I was like, oh, this is actually pretty good.

[Alan]

There's not a lot of movies that I've seen twice in a theater anyway.

[Matt]

It takes. Takes a lot to get me.

[Alan]

Yeah.

[Matt]

You know, get me excited enough to go to a movie theater, let alone.

[Alan]

Let alone twice. Yeah. But, yeah, I will go see again. And I've got to track it down in RPX now because I did not get to see it on. On in the RPX format, which is the, you know, superior sound and, you know, all of that just incredible technology behind it. But IMAX would be even better if I could find a show on imax, but I'll take rpx.

[Matt]

Yeah. Definitely gonna see it again, I think. Definitely. You know, for. For me, this is just a film thing that I feel like in general is like, go to the theater that you have that has the best sound.

[Alan]

Yes, yes. The sound is what makes this.

[Matt]

Because it's like, yeah, a bigger screen is always fun and stuff, but. And that's just my general cinema advice.

[Alan]

I'm with you on that 100%. Because if I can't see everything because it's too big, that doesn't help me.

[Matt]

No, but, like, great sound as long as it's a decent screen and they're not. Like, their projectors aren't crap. Like, if it's a quality screen and quality projector, but they have really good sound, like, that's going to immerse you way more than just having a big screen. That's my audio video side tangent, you know, soapbox moment.

[Alan]

You know, I'm with you because we have a similar background in that. Yeah, yeah, I agree. Well, Folks, that wraps it up for this bonus episode of the Prancing Pony Podcast. We are going to be off here for the next couple of weeks for the holidays, but please be sure to come back January 5th for episode 353. That's the second half of the House of Aorl and that episode is where this review will live permanently. Whereas here, this bonus episode is actually going to disappear. This is like a Mission Impossible tape.

[Matt]

It'll self destruct.

[Alan]

That's right, it'll self destruct in three weeks.

[Matt]

Now, of course, Alan and I want to thank the members of Team PPP Editor Jordan Rannells Barlum and Becca Davis, Social Media manager Casey Hilsey, Event and Patreon, community coordinator Katie McKenna, graphic artist Megan Collins and website guru Phil Dean.

[Alan]

And please take a minute to check out the prancingponypodcast.com it's where you're going to find show notes, outtakes, Prancing Pony Ponderings, our online storefront where you can get PPP merch, including all the great episode artwork that Megan's been doing for the show over the last couple of seasons.

[Matt]

You'll also want to visit our library page. The Prancing Pony Podcast is, after all, a podcast about the books. So if you're interested in a book we mentioned on the show, you'll find a link for it in our library. We we do get a small amount of compensation when you make your purchase and we thank you for that.

[Alan]

Indeed we do. And we also want to thank our patrons at the Kirdance Contribution tier. I'll start with demay in Alaska, Chad in Texas, Lance in New Jersey, Paul in Colorado, Joseph in Michigan, Kathy from North Carolina, Carlos in California, Brian in the uk, Jerry from Washington, Joe in Washington, Irwin from the Netherlands, Ben in Minnesota, Anthony in Texas, Zaksu in Illinois, Sarah in New Jersey, Joshua in Massachusetts, Lucy in Texas, Keith in Alabama and Erica in Texas.

[Matt]

There's also Carson in Oklahoma, Vivian in California, James in Massachusetts, Ann in Kentucky, Sean in New Jersey, Mason in California, Maureen from Massachusetts, Olivia in London, Robert in Arizona, Nick in Wisconsin, Lewis in South Carolina, Thomas in in Germany, Craig in California, Bailey in Texas, Kevin in Massachusetts, Julie in Washington, Bruce in California, Joe in Maryland, Nathan in Arizona and Kevin in Pennsylvania. Thank you all so very much for your support.

[Alan]

Indeed. Thank you.

[Matt]

Make sure you don't miss any episodes of the Prancing Pony Podcast. Subscribe now through Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or your favorite podcast app.

[Alan]

And watch one last thing. As always, don't forget to send your thoughts, comments, and most of all, the grade you give the War of the Rohirrim to. Barnamantheprancingponypodcast.com and if you want your voice.

[Matt]

Literally heard, well, just send us audio of your question. Visit podinbox.com prancingponypod to record your question for us. Please be sure to still email the question to Barlaman, though.

[Alan]

That's right. Now, even though Barlaman's been a lot more reliable lately, there is still a lot of mail for us to sort through. We'll try to get to you just as soon as we're able. As always, though, this has been far too short a time to spend among such excellent and admirable listeners. But until next time, this is the end.

[Matt]

We are going. We are leaving now. Goodbye. Hello, it is Ryan and I was.

[Alan]

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