← The Psychology of your 20s
The Psychology of your 20s
259. Confronting our family dynamics in adulthood ft. Gwendolyn Watson
00:44:14
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- [00:00]
Jon Stewart
Jon Stewart is back at the Daily show and he's bringing his signature wit and insight straight to your ears with the Daily Show Ears Edition podcast. Dive into John's unique take on the biggest topics in politics, entertainment, sports and more. Joined by the sharp voices of the show's correspondents and contributors, and with extended interviews and exclusive weekly headline roundups, this podcast gives you content you won't find anywhere else. Ready to laugh and stay informed? Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [00:38]
Osvaldo Shin
Do you want to see into the future? Do you want to understand an invisible force that's shaping your life? Do you want to experience the frontiers of what makes us human? On tech stuff, we travel from the mines of Congo to the surface of Mars, from conversations with Nobel Prize winners to the depths of TikTok to ask burning questions about technology. From high tech to low cult and everywhere in between. Join us Listen to tech stuff on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [01:09]
Gwendolyn Watson
Welcome to My Legacy. I'm Martin Luther King III and together with my wife, Andrea Waters King, and our dear friends Mark and Craig Kilburger, we explore the personal journeys that shape extraordinary lives. Join us for heartfelt conversations with remarkable guests like David Oyeloh, Mel Robbins, Martin Sheen, Dr. Sanjay Gupta and Billy Porter.
- [01:30]
Tisha Allen
Listen to My legacy on the iHeartra Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [01:35]
Gwendolyn Watson
This is My Legacy.
- [01:39]
Tisha Allen
You are cordially invited to the hottest party in professional sports. I'm Tisha Allen, former golf professional and the host of welcome to the Party. Your newest obsession about the wonderful world that is women's golf. Featuring interviews with top players on tour, tips to help improve your swing, and the craziest stories to come out of your friendly neighborhood country club. Welcome to the Party with Tisha Allen is an iHeart Women's fourth production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. Listen to welcome to the Party. That's P A R T E e on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [02:25]
Gwendolyn Watson
Hello everybody and welcome back to the psychology of your 20s, the podcast where we talk through some of the big life changes and transitions of our 20s and what they mean for our psychology. Hello everybody. Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to the podcast. New listeners, old listeners, wherever you are in the world, it is so great to have you here back for another episode as we of course break down the psychology of our 20s. Today, we are here to talk about our families, to Talk about parents and family dynamics and how they change in our 20s. Or more specifically, I think, how they really begin to reveal themselves to us as we further into this decade. For many of us, you know, family is supposed to be the source of unconditional love and loyalty and support, and it's meant to be a safe haven. But what happens when that doesn't really match up with our experience? And why is it that so many of us in our 20s really start questioning the role our families play in our lives and begin to unpack how they've shaped us for better or for worse, and how they will continue to shape us? So I really want to explore some of those common struggles that come with having a family and having strange, complicated parental dynamics and the nuances of it all. You know, I think it's really interesting that it's not black and white. It's not that you either completely hate your family, you want to be estranged from them, or you have to completely love them. A lot of us exist in the gray space in the middle. So why is that the case? How do we navigate having complicated feelings towards family? And, of course, I wanted to bring on an amazing guest who is an expert on this to help us rethink healthy boundaries, family expectations, all of the above. These are very big, heavy topics, but they are so necessary. So I want to welcome on Gwendolyn Watson. Gwendolyn, how are you doing?
- [04:33]
Tisha Allen
Hi. Thank you so much for having me. I'm doing. I'm doing great. I. This was the highlight of my day. I was looking forward to this.
- [04:39]
Gwendolyn Watson
Oh, my gosh.
- [04:40]
Tisha Allen
Thank you.
- [04:40]
Gwendolyn Watson
That always makes me feel very, very happy. Just a little compliment to begin the episode. None of the listeners have probably met you before. Maybe they have, but. So can you tell us a little bit about yourself and how exactly you became, well, a marriage and family therapist above all else?
- [05:00]
Tisha Allen
Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I love reflecting on my journey to become a therapist because it's so aligned with some of the themes that we're going to explore as well. So grew up in a family that had a lot of dynamics. I was one of four kids. My mom, abstract painter, poet, kind of very expansive woman from England, and I grew up in America, and my dad was a tax lawyer from the South. So just already, like, how did that happen? That's a whole other podcast of how they met.
- [05:35]
Gwendolyn Watson
Oh, my goodness. Yeah.
- [05:37]
Tisha Allen
Just growing up in that environment of a lot of different perspectives on values and life. And as a middle child, as I'm sure you've explored in past episodes, a Lot of my development was around really noticing how to, you know, have certain reactions from people, noticing what brought about a sense of joy, a sense of acceptance, and maybe what, what things would bring about a sense of anxiety from my parents. Part of that experience. Also, I'm an identical twin.
- [06:11]
Gwendolyn Watson
Oh my goodness.
- [06:12]
Tisha Allen
I know you.
- [06:14]
Gwendolyn Watson
Oh my God. You're a middle child and an identical twin. So you didn't even get to just be the only middle child. You have to do it with someone else who is identical. Oh my goodness gracious.
- [06:24]
Tisha Allen
Yeah. So my journey into my 20s, I felt like it was one of those first times of asking myself, how do I feel about something? What do I want? I studied art history and then jumped from that and went into Google, worked in business development for almost a decade. And yet I found myself walking through the corridors, like walking through the cubicles, kind of keeping that feeling of disconnection at bay. I remember one time I walked into an empty conference room and found myself tearful and not knowing why. And it really was that like I was starting to get in touch with this feeling of this isn't what I want my life to be. That process kind of got in touch with the fact that my whole life I've been serving some type of helping profession role. And I've always been really curious about relationships. I was a young kid, curious about my parents relationship. I was a young kid, like trying to negotiate friendship struggles on the playground. And I was like a very highly sensitive, attuned, emotionally attuned kid and teen and young adult. So started to think about, I think being a therapist is actually more aligned with what I want. And I remember calling my parents to share with them that I was embarking on this new journey. And in that moment I was really ready for them to be on the same page with me. And of course, as it happens, they were in shock. They had a lot of anxiety. They had a lot of their own stories of raising kids with, you know, some like professional uncertainty. My dad, my dad's firm he was working for like collapsed and he had a mortgage with three kids at the time. There's just like these own stories of their own experiences around sudden career change that were coming up. I was like, why would you, like what, like you're, but you have so much stability, like, and you're so good at it, like not, there's no signs that you should change your career. And in that conversation, you know, from their own anxiety, they, you know, they said, they, they, they had strong reactions and it was quite hurtful for Me at the time, you know, now we've. We've moved through it, and I can see the two sides of the story. But in that moment, you know, I just was shocked that something that felt so beautiful to me was landing for them as so scary, such a bad idea. Definitely not what I should be doing and, you know, like, giving up, that I was really losing and giving up, as opposed to opening and gaining, like, a new chapter. So it was one of those moments where I had to be at peace with. Even though they're not on board, I'm on board. Like, I'm on board with myself, and I can give them space to come around. Like, if this is true, if I'm really becoming a therapist, not to please them or to please anyone else, if this is really my vocation, then I believe in myself to put in the work to make it happen. So, yeah, that was a long, long winded answer. But now I'm in private practice now. I've had a couple different experiences as a therapist with different populations, and I get to work with adults and couples and families and support them in the navigation of relationships, which are, as you said in your intro, so nuanced, so complex, and really, I think, the best catalyst for growth for all of us as human beings.
- [10:19]
Gwendolyn Watson
That's a really beautiful story, and I think that it ties really perfectly in with what we're talking about today, which is doing what's best for you versus what's. What your family thinks is best for you, having not so much conflict, but different opinions in. In families, disappointing your parents. But speaking of family, why do you think so many of us start really questioning the reality or what family should look like in our 20s? What is it about our 20s that really makes us start reconsidering how we were raised, how we grew up, and maybe some of the resentment around that as well?
- [10:54]
Tisha Allen
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, again, this is assuming that you lived with your family of origin the whole time and then kind of left home in your 20s, which I know isn't the case for everyone, but assuming that progression, it can be, you know, when you're living in an environment, the ability to question what's happening, there isn't always space for that. That takes a pretty, like, secure and strong and safe environment to be able to outwardly name and question certain patterns or certain behaviors or certain values that are happening within a family system. So in your 20s, once you're left home, there's literally the oxygen to pause and say, hold on a second. What are the values that really Aligned for me. Right. And sometimes there's this beautiful quote that I love from for ACT therapy, which is acceptance and commitment therapy, which says, in our pain we find our values, and in our values we find our pain. And I think a lot of 20 in your being in your 20s is that invitation where you have the space, you often have the time to pause and say, what did I experience that did have pain that maybe at the time I minimized or kind of brushed away or repressed or just didn't even notice, just thought it was just kind of normal. What did I experience that had some pain connected to it? And what does that tell me about what I really care about? Some of our values are adopted and kind of carried forth down the generation from our families of origin and down the generations. And some of them are in reaction to or kind of like a renewed value that is in contrast to values that we were raised with. So, you know, I'm going on a little bit of a tangent myself, but I think that in your 20s, there's. There's actually that space to. To pause and to reflect and something that I also love thinking about. For folks in your. In their 20s, we talk a lot about, you know, you've probably heard a lot on social media and just if. If you're in your own therapy, your inner child, and I love introducing the concept alongside your inner child of your inner teen who's like a fricking badass and. And wants to question things and wants to, you know, like, kind of like, isn't afraid to maybe disrupt the status quo or to push back about things. And your 20s is kind of the first time when you get to integrate your inner teen because you're not, you know, you're not living your teen years. You're able to kind of feel into that. That teen side that, hold on a second side, right? They're like, what do I care about? When do I want to speak up side, but that it's not kind of ruling the ship in the same way that, you know, that you're living that in your teens, but you're also dealing with all the things you're dealing with in your teens. So your 20s, there's a way to kind of feel into that and kind of integrate, like, what part of me is in touch with my values and maybe what part of me is a little bit of my inner teen, like just wanting to have fun or wanting to make mistakes or wanting to do something off the cuff and spontaneous and against what people expect of me. So, yeah, I think the 20s, it's a beautiful, beautiful time that there's so much space for all of that. But it's a really unique time to, you know, I say it's kind of like you're giving birth to yourself, that you're allowing yourself to come into your adulthood.
- [14:55]
Gwendolyn Watson
Yeah. And I feel like, wow, that's all coming up and you're having what is a really huge transformation into adulthood. Yes. You have the oxygen to look at your family differently. Like, you have the breathing room. And you also start to talk to other people about their experiences as well, and I think become a bit more independently educated about what may have benefited you more, what family dynamics maybe should have looked like. And with that, that can bring up the resentment as well of why didn't I have the childhood like that? Was that not meant to act like, was I actually not meant to be treated that way? And a big question which we, which you talked about before is the push towards individualization. And I think a big question around becoming an individual is how would I do that differently? You know, my parents set an example, but as an individual, how would I have done that differently? And how will I do it differently in my own life with my friends, with my kids, with my family? And sometimes that brings up some heavy stuff. When you begin to really realize the ways you've perhaps maybe been let down, hurt by your parents or family, maybe disappointed in the past, what kind of reactions do you think people tend to have? Because it's a very hard realization. I think whether you have it as a teenager or as a. In your 20s, be like, oh, my family isn't perfect and I'm just going to have to live with that. What are some of the reactions we initially tend to have towards that realization?
- [16:35]
Tisha Allen
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think I. You. You named it with that. That experience of. It's kind of an experience of. Of grief and of. Of loss. Like a loss of what you wished you had had. And with. With grief, with any type of processing loss, like, the reactions really run the gamut. Right. Like that. It is so individual for. For some people, it might be that feeling of, you know, a feeling of anger or of irritation or of sadness. You know, I do a lot with parts work, so kind of thinking about the different parts of yourself. And I think when you're talking about integrating a story of what happened in my past and how do I feel about it, my approach is always to make space for all the different parts of you and how all the different parts of you might feel right. There might Be kind of an intellectual wise part that says, well, this is the way that I'm gonna think about it. Clearly, XYZ happened and kind of uses intellectualization to find a narrat. And there might be that, you know, that inner, you know, maybe boundaried or angry part that really just wants to be in touch with anger and be in touch with, like, that wasn't fair. Sometimes that anger part is connected to a sense of justice. Like, it shouldn't have been that way. And there's often a young part that is in touch with fear or. Yeah, just, you know, fear or shut down or just quite quiet, you know, sitting in the quietness of. Of an experience. And so, you know, I get. I get this question from clients sometimes, like, am I supposed to feel this? Or how should I feel? And I always want to invite. You know, actually there are so many parts of you that are experiencing this processing of what family means or what happened that I wish hadn't happened. So how can we actually make space for all of those parts of you and notice if one part and one side of you is really holding the microphone, no pun intended, as we hold our microphones. I know if one side of you is really speaking quite loud, let's give it that space. Let's let it air out how it felt. But let's also notice the other sides of you that maybe have something to say as well. Yeah, yeah, go ahead.
- [19:19]
Gwendolyn Watson
Oh, no, I was just gonna say, like, I think anger and grief are like the two big ones. And like, anger and grief are the two big ones that are very hard to process. And I've often found that if you just ignore them and you say to yourself, I have no right to be angry, or I need to put away this anger and just pretend like everything is normal. And that's very relevant, especially around the holidays when we're recording this.
- [19:44]
Tisha Allen
Yeah.
- [19:45]
Gwendolyn Watson
That does not make it better, and that does not make it more bearable because you're still minimizing. You're still minimizing for other people. Right. Any, like, emotional reaction you're having to being disappointed by your family or disappointing your family is a reaction that I think needs to. Has a full life cycle.
- [20:06]
Tisha Allen
Right.
- [20:07]
Gwendolyn Watson
There's a birth of it. Normally, like when you are a child or when you are a teenager, then there is the life of it. When you're really, really feeling that emotion and event, the emotion might die or it might become a bit weaker, a bit more fragile. Sometimes that does take time, but also, you can't put it into a box and expect that it's not going to want to break out. So I really like what you're saying. Like you need to give space for every single reaction that you're feeling towards your nuanced family dynamics. When, when it's the case that you still have to be, you know, be present with your family, you obviously don't, you might not want to cut them off. You know, especially around the holidays, there's a big conversation of people being like, I have to go, I'm going home for Christmas. And I just know that this stuff is going to come up. I'm predicting that like I'm probably going to fall back into old patterns with my family. How do you navigate that? How do you make sure that you're still like looking forward and looking to heal whilst perhaps back in the same environment that caused you the pain in the first place?
- [21:17]
Tisha Allen
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I guess I want to name that even the word family means so many different things for so many different people. Right. And that although there is a quite common experience of when we're back with our families of origin, we suddenly find ourselves like feeling 15 again or feeling quite young. Like, you know, and I mean even me like peeking at 40, like this same thing happens to me. Like I Thanksgiving, I was like, God, I just, I really just feel like a 15 year old again. So like that felt experience is, is psychologically normal. I don't know how to phrase it. Like it's a shared experience that a lot of people have and you know, going home to family there is, it's such a spectrum. So I want to, I want to, I guess I want to offer empathy to folks who are listening to this conversation that for some people you might be going back to family where you know, there are, we don't get to choose who our parents are. You know, it is possible that you have parents that for their own reasons and their own things that they're struggling with, have consistent and character logical ways of dismissing or hurting you physically or psychologically. And there's other people who, going back to family, you know, they're going back to parents who are trying their best and still disappointing. Right? That might be showing love through their, like only know how to show love through anxiety or. No, only know how to show love through criticizing. And that's, it's, it's intentional to say that they love you but in actuality like they're telling you why are you wearing that to Christmas dinner? And it's like, really dude?
- [23:09]
Gwendolyn Watson
Really like what's happening? With your job, like, why are you making more money?
- [23:13]
Tisha Allen
Or like, have you. Not yet. Yeah. I can't believe you broke up with that person. They were the only person who cared about you. You know, like, there's. I'm wanting to normalize the spectrum, right, and, and say that although there's a common experience of going home for the holidays, like, you know your truth, you know, you know, like, am I dealing with a family that's rough around the edges and imperfect in the way that humans are imperfect? Or did I grow up in an environment where when I return home, I really have to be cautious around what it means to navigate safety and navigate this moment? Of course, some people, if they really are returning to homes where they've seen a long enough pattern of whether it's humiliation or being put down or really just feeling that intentionality of power and control, they might not be going home for the holidays. They might be finding chosen friends and chosen family to be engaging in the holidays with. But I guess what I offer to my clients is pausing to think about, what do you. What do you want and what do you need? For me, whenever there's times when I'm going home for the holidays, and there's certain things that are quite sensitive. Like it feels kind of like soft belly type of. Yeah, like a soft belly up sensitivity. I don't know if that metaphor makes sense, but I might say that what I need is to not discuss the certain things that I know, like, are quite. That I'm quite protective around, you know, so I have that awareness in advance. And if people are bringing it up or asking me about that, you know, I'll kind of respond with, with kindness, but just say like, thanks for asking. I'm. I'm not ready to talk about that or, you know, today, and I don't have the space to talk about that today. So I kind of have in advance. I've kind of prepared, like, what do I need for my own heart and soul to have that boundary? And what do I also need for my own body? For me personally, I can't drink alcohol around the holidays because I am a quite emotionally open person. And if I have even half of a drink around families who then say a comment that they mean well but lands as criticism, I flood much more easily. So I'm also thinking about my own body. What do I need for my own body that I can't negotiate? And then outside of that is the wants, like, what do I want for the holidays? Of course I want to laugh and connect with my Siblings and with my parents and I, I definitely want there to be moments of shared vulnerability. Those might happen, they might not. You know, so helping differentiate between like our wish, kind of like our wish list, like our, our wants, our hopes and then our needs. Like, where are the places that I really want to prioritize the, the boundaries and my energy around supporting myself with those boundaries. And what are the other things that are more about me experiencing the, you know, those moments in the holidays where we have that feeling of disappointment because we had high expectations or high hopes for what it might look like and maybe it looks a little bit differently and those are kind of the wants. Like, did I want to have this really heart to heart meaningful conversation with so and so on Christmas morning? Maybe. And maybe it didn't happen this year, but maybe it'll be another year. So that's. That helps me differentiate between what to really put my energy behind.
- [26:52]
Gwendolyn Watson
I love the idea of having like a wish list for your family Christmas or your family holiday. My other thing is that I, I go in with really low expectations. Really, really low expectations.
- [27:06]
Tisha Allen
Yeah.
- [27:06]
Gwendolyn Watson
And I also make sure that I have, firstly, I know what I don't want to talk about with my family when I'm back home. And I actually, I know it sounds like it's so simple, but I really do say, like, I'm not talking about this, please and thank you. Like, I, I'm not going to talk about that with you. That there's. And if you, if we do, like, I'm gonna leave. Sorry. Bye. Like, I'm not, I'm gonna leave. So you can either have my company or you can have your answer to this question. Which one would you like more? And the other thing I do is I have like a little bit of an escape. I have a huge family and yeah, huge family. It's big complicated situation. So I also know that I need like my own time and space to get away from it. Otherwise I will literally explode. We're going to take a little bit of a break, but then I want to talk about how we can communicate the ways in which our parents or our family have disappointed us in the past. After this short break.
- [28:11]
Jon Stewart
Jon Stewart is back in the host chair at the Daily show, which means he's also back in our ears on the Daily Show Ears Edition podcast. The Daily show podcast has everything you need to stay on top of today's news and pop culture. You get hilarious satirical takes on entertainment, politics, sports and more from John and the team of correspondents and contributors. The podcast also has content you you can't get anywhere else. Like extended interviews and a roundup of the weekly headlines. Listen to the Daily Show Ears edition on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [28:50]
Osvaldo Shin
Do you want to understand an invisible force that's shaping your life? I'm Osvaloshin, one of the new hosts of the long running podcast Tech Stuff. I'm slightly skeptical but obsessively intrigued.
- [29:01]
Tisha Allen
And I'm Cara Price, the other new host and I'm ready to adopt early and often on tech stuff.
- [29:07]
Osvaldo Shin
We travel all the way from the mines of Congo to the surface of Mars to the dark corners of TikTok to ask and attempt to answer burning questions about technology.
- [29:16]
Tisha Allen
One of the kind of tricks for surviving Mars is to live there long enough so that people evolve into Martians.
- [29:22]
Gwendolyn Watson
Like data is a very rough proxy for a complex reality.
- [29:26]
Tisha Allen
How?
- [29:27]
Gwendolyn Watson
How is it possible that the world's new energy revolution can be based in this place where there's no electricity at night?
- [29:34]
Tisha Allen
Oz and I will cut through the noise to bring you the best conversations and deep dives that will help you understand how tech is changing our world and what you need to know to survive the singularity. So join us.
- [29:45]
Osvaldo Shin
Listen to tech stuff on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [29:53]
Tisha Allen
Can you hear it? It's the whisper of two wolves inside you. One says you're not enough. The other says, keep going. You can do this. They're always talking. The one you listen to shapes your life. I'm Eric Zimmer, host of the one you feed on my podcast. We explore how to hear the voice that matters. The one that leads you to courage, wisdom and love. It's not about perfection. It's about direction. Millions of listeners have fed their good wolf. Now it's your turn. Listen to the one you feed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.
- [30:50]
Gwendolyn Watson
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- [30:52]
Tisha Allen
Are often hiding behind a blur of numbers. So that's why we created the big Take from Bloomberg podcasts, to give you the context you need to make sense of it all. Every day in just 15 minutes, we.
- [31:03]
Osvaldo Shin
Dive into one global business story that matters.
- [31:06]
Tisha Allen
You'll hear from Bloomberg journalists like Matt Levine.
- [31:09]
Gwendolyn Watson
A lot of this meme stock stuff.
- [31:10]
Tisha Allen
Is, I think, embarrassing to the sec. Amanda Maul, who writes our Business Week Buying Power column.
- [31:17]
Gwendolyn Watson
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- [31:21]
Tisha Allen
And Zoe Tillman, senior legal reporter. Courts are not supposed to decide elections. Courts are not really supposed to play a big role in choosing our elected leaders. It's for the voters to decide. Follow the Big Take podcast on the.
- [31:38]
Gwendolyn Watson
Iheartradio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. Alrighty. We are back with Gwen. So this is a complicated question that I get asked a lot. How do you ring up the times in which your family has disappointed you in the past or hurt you? Is it worth even bringing it up in your 20s, or should you just not say anything and just go on and build your own life and know that you can't heal what's been broken in them? Well, basically, what is the best alternative to navigating a past situation that you feel is still holding weight for you, where you feel you want to say something about it?
- [32:21]
Tisha Allen
Yeah, it's, you know, what you're talking about is like, how to have a. What I'm hearing in the question is how to have a repair conversation. Like, I think that there's. When people are saying they want to share, there's a hope, there's a hope that they'll feel seen and that there will be a feeling of accountability or of empathy for what you experienced. So whenever there's a repair conversation, the first question is kind of like, are both sides ready? And I think what's really challenging is sometimes you're ready for that conversation. And whether it's a parent or a sibling, they might not be ready for many reasons. Right. It might not be. They might be going through something really stressful in their life. They might just not be in the right mindset. And so sometimes the first question is, how can I tolerate my readiness while the other person isn't yet ready? And so if that's the case, and I rarely think it rarely works when that type of conversation is forced, when it's like, I need to have it. So we're having this conversation when there's that feeling of it's happening now, people come in defensive. And that feeling of being seen, it's just. There's a lower chance. Let's put it that way. There's a lower chance of it happening, definitely. So if the other person. Oh, did I cut you off?
- [33:58]
Gwendolyn Watson
No, no, we didn't.
- [34:00]
Tisha Allen
Okay. If the other person isn't ready, then the question is, how can I have this conversation? You know, in. In therapy or with people who are going to listen? For some clients, I've done, you know, writing letters. Letters to themselves, like, writing letters to their past selves, different, like, creative expressions that it' the Same thing. But it helps them tolerate that difference that like that waiting period of this other person isn't ready yet, and also tolerate the fact that there's no guarantee, you know, the other person might not ever be ready. There are some parents who say, you know, the past is the past. I don't want to go back there. Right. And so that's, unfortunately, that, that's part of relationships is that we, we only have control over us naming what we're wanting and what we're needing. And we can't always control the other person wanting to engage. But if you have a sense, you know, that, that they're naming things like I want to deepen my relationship with you, or you're feeling really distant, like I'm wanting to kind of form our adult, our adult relationship of a parent child relationship, then starting by just naming, you know, kind of your intention for the conversation. A lot of parents are, avoid conversations like that because there's an anxiety and there's a pain around the fact that you can't change the past. So if there's a naming of hey mom or hey Dad, I want to share my experience because I want to have an authentic connection with you. I want you to know what I went through and I understand that you can't change the past. I really kind of am just hoping to feel seen and feel heard by the person that I had this experience with that can kind of create a foundation for a deeper, empathetic conversation, maybe more successful. There also are a lot of people who have these conversations in therapy. And more and more I'm seeing couples therapists who are also supporting parent child dyads. So like holding the space of a two person conversation with adult children because a lot of adult children have stuff they want to talk about. And a lot of parents are feeling a little confused and sometimes bewildered that they don't understand why this energy is coming from their adult child and they want support figuring it out. So there are lots of different spaces for these types of conversations. But I would say, yeah, like naming your intention and then knowing that your parent might be quite surprised, they might be kind of a little caught off guard and it might be multiple iterations of this type of conversation. I will share from my personal experience that I had conversations like this with my dad when I was in my 20s and he was, you know, he was the breadwinner, he was working a lot. There was four, four kids in the family. So some of the things that I wished he had understood was what it was like to have A parent who was contributing a ton, but not physically or very emotionally present and how there was that feeling of loss around that. And every time I tried in my 20s to express this, it came off critical. He was kind of like, wtf? Like, I like, you know, provided I.
- [37:44]
Gwendolyn Watson
Gave you so much.
- [37:45]
Tisha Allen
Yeah, I tried my best, like, and it never. It just created more disconnection. And then during the pandemic being forced to be on Zoom, we started having like, zoom chats where it was finally the right time and place for us to have that conversation. And it was really, really beautiful. You know, he shared authentically and tearfully about what it was like to be on client calls while he was hearing me be me and my sister be sung Happy birthday and blow out a birthday candles, and he was being pulled in and had to miss that. And I shared authentically about how it really felt like my focus was on my mom and I didn't have a focus on my dad, and how that lack of connection, like, I didn't feel connected to him. And that was like, really weird to just be connecting in my adult life with him. And. And we both leaned into it with a lot of honesty and authenticity. And it was clumsy. But now I can really say, like, we're building something new that I never thought would happen. I know it's quite. It just has its own beauty and it's a new chapter. So it took us a lot of time to get to that. And I guess that's what I want to normalize, is that sometimes it's both. Both people have to live more life until conversations can happen that go the way you want.
- [39:14]
Gwendolyn Watson
I really, I think that's a really beautiful reminder. You have to live more life before you can have the conversations you want to have. And I. I really appreciate that you said at the beginning, you can't have this conversation, this repair conversation, unless both people are ready. And I guess also unless you know what you want to get out of it. Right? Because sometimes if you go to a parent and you're like, all I want is an apology, you might not get that. And so if that's. I think going into a repair conversation, you have to want something that you'd be okay with them not being able to give you in a way. So you have to be okay with them maybe not apologizing, maybe not being able to say, yeah, I totally messed up there, because I think maybe 90% of the time a parent isn't going to say, yeah, I messed up, because that's not how, like, human ego works and for, you know, being a parent is sometimes the biggest thing that anyone's done in their life. I think it's the biggest thing that most people do in their life. Raising a child, raising a family. And so, you know, they don't want to acknowledge that they were maybe a failure at that thing. Even though you're sitting across them saying, like, this hurt me. This was painful. All I want from you is to acknowledge it. Giving that up means giving up a sense of accomplishment for them and a sense of pride as well. I also think that when you talk about both, people need to be ready. I think about emotionally immature parents for whom that's never going to happen. Like, there is never going to be an acknowledgement from them. They're probably never going to be ready. I've seen it so many times with people who, you know, parents have passed away and they've never had the conversations. So I like that you've offered this alternative of there is a way to give yourself closure. There is a way to take everything that you've experienced and not need the acknowledgment of the person who's perhaps caused it. You just need to acknowledge it yourself and find. And find a way to, you know, make it part of your story, but not the defining part. So how do you think that we can find closure ourselves if we maybe aren't speaking to our families? If we have emotionally immature parents, if a parent has passed away and the effects are still there, how can we bring about closure when it comes to complicated family dynamics for ourselves?
- [41:48]
Tisha Allen
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I. Yeah, it's such a good question. I'll Just to name the. With the dynamic of emotionally immature parents, I. I like to think about, like, there's some parents who, as you're saying, like, just aren't interested in. In that level of growth. And there's also some parents who want it but are in their own pro, like, it just catching up. Like, they're playing like, way catch up, you know, so kind of like differentiating between parents who aren't interested in authentic, vulnerable relationships where there's a safety to be honesty. And the parents who really want that but are just kind of like in. In kindergarten, like, they're like, they're like playing catch up and they're, you know, it's kind of, if you can hold that, like, wow, they're. They're doing the emotional growth that I started when I was in my 20s, but they're starting in their 70s. So I do believe in the human spirit when the Human spirit wants growth, that it can happen at any age. But as you said, there are some people who just aren't interested in that shift, and that's their choice. So to your question, you know, I find that I really, really believe in the power of healing in relationship. And it doesn't always happen in. It doesn't always happen. The healing that you want to happen with maybe your parent might end up happening in other, other relationships. So that, that kind of broadening the view of, you know, when I'm thinking about what was the wound, what was the dynamic that happened between you and your parent and what was the underlying wound, maybe it was your parent, you know, telling you how you should think or how you should feel. And so listening for that theme as it's coming up in other relationships, maybe with a manager at work or maybe with, you know, a friend or, or an intimate partner, and seeing what it's like to find your voice, to name your truth and to navigate, you know, that. That dynamic with someone where maybe they have a little bit more space to hear you and to see you. So, you know, although, you know, I wouldn't. I wouldn't recommend like, seeking out, although this happens, like seeking out a. Like a parallel relationship and, you know, kind of enacting, like enacting what didn't happen with your parents and enacting it in all future romantic relationships. I think when there's a consciousness around it, like, what are your wounds? And when you see those things show up with the right people who want to be holding that space of really understanding where you're coming from, you can have really, really healing moments where they offer correctional experience. Sometimes that happens in therapy, sometimes that happens in other relationships. But I would say knowing your themes, know your wounds, like, know what, what needs didn't get met and listen and notice for when that's showing up, I do really believe that there's a way that you talked about, like, the life cycle of an emotion. There's a. There's a life cycle of stories that, like, themes come back up. And when they come up, we have an opportunity to give ourselves the space and the, the power or the compassion or the backbone or the softness that we wish we had experienced in the past. There's this beautiful phrase that I love, which is, wherever you go, there you are. And so I think it's the same with relationships. You know, whatever happened in past relationships that didn't get to be fully resolved or fully metabolized, it's going to show up again, and this time you might have a little more wisdom, a little more tolerance, and the person might have a little bit more space for that experience to unfold in a very different way. So, yeah, I'd say have faith in what it looks like to continue to practice authentic, vulnerable relationships for yourself and with others.
- [46:18]
Gwendolyn Watson
Even if you can't do that with your family. Like you said, you can do that with friends, you can do that with mentors, you can do that with partners, boyfriends, girlfriends. One of the big things for me that I think is so healing if you can't have those. Those conversations and that closure really with family is being able to say, well, that's not going to be passed on. That's not going to be how their relationships work. No one is hopefully going to come to them at 60 and say, you know, you caused me this hurt, you caused me this pain. There is a lot of closure, I think, in healing yourself and in breaking the generational chain and saying all that work that they were maybe unable to do, I have now done it. And so it's kind of like cutting off the head of a disease, right? If perhaps, you know, whatever it was that has been passed down through your lineage, because often the way that your parents or your family has interacted with you is the way that their families interacted with them, even if you don't have children. Right. Knowing that your relationships, you know, your personal relationships won't have this dynamic, the relationships you have with nieces and nephews won't have this dynamic. The relationship that you have with your partner won't reflect that, that maybe your parents had in their marriage. Like, that is an incredibly healing thing. So I have one more question to ask you. And it doesn't even have to do with family. It's just something we ask every single guest, which is if you had one piece of advice, a bullet point piece of advice for someone in their 20s, what would it be like?
- [47:58]
Tisha Allen
Take it one step at a time, you know, one day at a time. Even with what you were naming about the not wanting to repeat generational trauma, like, we each make one chain. Like small changes in the patterns of the families that we are born into and future generations, whether those are relationships or our own biological or raised children, future generations are going to make little shifts that we don't have to do it all, but we can be proud of what we are doing.
- [48:35]
Gwendolyn Watson
Yeah, little changes. I like that. That's a beautiful piece of advice to end things with. Gwen, I want to thank you so much for coming on to talk about a pretty deep, meaningful, vulnerable conversation and a vulnerable topic. Where can the listeners find you? How can they learn more about your work?
- [48:53]
Tisha Allen
Yeah, well My website is www.gwendolynwatson.com and I'm on LinkedIn posting about mental health, parenting, emotions, all all the stuff that we think doesn't get discussed in corporate environments. I'm doing it on LinkedIn, so feel free to connect with me there. And yeah, continue the conversation.
- [49:18]
Gwendolyn Watson
Yeah, everything will be linked in the episode description as always and I just want to thank you guys for listening to this episode. If this is something that you're really dealing with this holiday period, oh my goodness, you are not alone. You are not alone. And there are so many amazing resources out there as well that I'll also leave in the episode description. Make sure that you are following along and that you give the show a five star review wherever you are listening. You can also continue the conversation. If you have thoughts, feelings about this episode, you can DM me on Instagram at thatpsychology podcast and we're always taking further episode suggestions. But until next time, stay safe, be kind, be gentle to yourself and and we will talk very, very soon. This year I've been really rethinking my relationship with alcohol and so I decided to commit to Dry January to really kickstart 2025 and just test myself. Heineken 00 is the perfect companion for Dry January because you feel like you're still participating when you're out for dinner with friends, out for drinks, whilst you're still meeting your lifestyle goals. I'm a big beer fan, so I also love the taste of Heineken 00 plus being alcohol free, you can enjoy whenever refreshment calls. Heineken 00 is available at your local Heineken retailer or for delivery@heineken.com you must be 21+ to purchase. Enjoy Heineken responsibly and good luck with Dry January.
- [50:48]
Jon Stewart
Catch Jon Stewart back in action on the Daily show and in your ears with the Daily Show Ears Edition podcast. From his hilarious satirical takes on today's politics and entertainment to the unique voices of correspondents and contributors, it's your perfect companion to stay on top of what's happening now. Plus, you'll get special content just for podcast listeners, like in depth interviews and a roundup of the week's top headlines. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [51:21]
Osvaldo Shin
Do you want to see into the future? Do you want to understand an invisible force that's shaping your life. Do you want to experience the frontiers of what makes us human? On tech stuff, we travel from the mines of Congo to the surface of Mars, from conversations with Nobel Prize winners to the depths of TikTok to ask burning questions about technology, from high tech to low culture, and every everywhere in between. Join Us Listen to tech stuff on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [51:52]
Gwendolyn Watson
Welcome to My Legacy. I'm Martin Luther King III and together with my wife, Andrea Waters King, and our dear friends Mark and Craig Kilburger, we explore the personal journeys that shape extraordinary lives. Join us for heartfelt conversations with remarkable guests like David Oyelo, Mel Robbins, Mar Martin Sheen, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, and Billy Porter.
- [52:14]
Tisha Allen
Listen to My legacy on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [52:19]
Gwendolyn Watson
This is My Legacy.