271. Overcoming our purpose anxiety ft. Elizabeth Gilbert

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Psychology of Your 20s | Episode 271: Overcoming Our Purpose Anxiety ft. Elizabeth Gilbert

Introduction

In Episode 271 of The Psychology of Your 20s, hosted by Patricia, the conversation centers around the pervasive anxiety surrounding finding one's purpose—a common struggle for individuals navigating their twenties. This episode features acclaimed author Elizabeth Gilbert, best known for her works like Eat, Pray, Love and Big Magic. Together, they delve deep into the societal pressures of discovering a unique life purpose, the misconceptions surrounding it, and practical strategies to overcome such anxieties.

The Myth of a Singular Purpose

Patricia begins by sharing her admiration for Elizabeth Gilbert's TED Talk, "Your Elusive Creative Genius," and her transformative book, Big Magic. She expresses her long-held desire to host Gilbert on the podcast to explore themes of success, inspiration, failure, and the essence of being human in one's twenties.

Elizabeth Gilbert introduces herself, highlighting her work as both a fiction and non-fiction author. She emphasizes her focus on "creative living," a philosophy centered on making decisions driven by curiosity rather than fear, fostering a more creative and fulfilling life.

Purpose Anxiety: Debunking the Theology

Patricia raises a critical point about the societal indoctrination that everyone is born with a unique, singular purpose. Elizabeth Gilbert (referred to as Matt in the transcript) passionately critiques this "purpose theology," arguing that it breeds immense anxiety and unrealistic expectations. She states:

“Everyone is born with a unique purpose that is completely their own and totally unrelated to anybody else... there is this thing called purpose anxiety, and I scarcely know anybody who doesn't suffer from it.” (08:32)

Defining Hobby, Job, Career, and Calling

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around distinguishing between four key concepts: hobby, job, career, and calling. Elizabeth Gilbert meticulously breaks down each term:

1. Hobby: Activities pursued for fun and enjoyment without any pressure to monetize or excel.

   “Hobbies actually bring an end to anxiety, like puttering about making things for no reason, doing something simply because it's a pleasure.” (15:05)

2. Job: Employment undertaken to earn a living, which doesn’t necessarily align with one’s passions or purpose.

   “A job is just a thing you have to do to make some money so that you can go home and have hobbies.” (16:53)

3. Career: A job that one is passionate about and derives significant satisfaction from, often leading to personal and professional growth.

   “If you are passionate about it and you feel like, this is what I'm here to do, then you pour yourself into your job.” (17:19)

4. Calling: A profound sense of purpose driven by spiritual fulfillment, not necessarily tied to financial gain or societal recognition.

   “A calling is something that you feel you are compelled to do because it's a spiritual fulfillment.” (18:35)

Elizabeth emphasizes that conflating these distinct categories leads to confusion and unnecessary pressure, contributing to purpose anxiety.

Strategies to Overcome Purpose Anxiety

Elizabeth Gilbert offers a counter-narrative to the purpose-driven life by advocating for a life of presence and curiosity. She suggests:

• Embrace Curiosity: Instead of fixating on a future purpose, engage with life’s wonders and follow what genuinely intrigues you.

  “A life of presence is simply being a witness to the extraordinary, unknowable, miraculous strangeness of being a human being on this planet.” (12:25)

• Distinguish Roles: Clearly differentiate between your hobby, job, career, and calling to alleviate the pressure of meeting societal expectations.

  “Whether you've had a hugely positive, massively fantastic, big new crazy thing happen in your life or a hugely negative, massively horrible, big new crazy thing in your life, you've got to learn how to ground.” (27:19)

• Grounding Techniques: Connect with nature and engage in activities that bring you back to the present moment, fostering inner peace and stability.

  “You have to get low to the earth and go to the beach or go in the ocean... you have to get animal, you have to connect with elemental things like fire and water and earth.” (42:49)

Dealing with Success and Failure

The conversation touches upon the emotional impact of success, as illustrated by Elizabeth Gilbert’s personal experiences. She compares major successes to natural disasters in terms of their psychological effects, stating that both can be equally destabilizing:

“A really big swing in the positive direction has the same impact on my nervous system as if there was an earthquake or a death in the family.” (40:03)

Elizabeth shares how she coped with the overwhelming success of Eat, Pray, Love by taking a year off to ground herself through gardening, illustrating the importance of maintaining balance amidst external achievements.

Creativity vs. Anxiety

Elizabeth delves into the relationship between creativity and anxiety. She explains that the fear response, an ancient part of our consciousness, often hinders creativity by resisting the unknown. However, embracing creativity is presented as the antidote to anxiety.

“The opposite of anxiety is creativity. It's creativity is the only way out of anxiety, and the only way into creativity is to live from a spirit of 'that's interesting' rather than 'what a nightmare'.” (29:39)

Elizabeth Gilbert’s Personal Journey and Upcoming Works

Elizabeth discusses her latest memoir, All the Way to the River, which chronicles her tumultuous relationship with her best friend Raya Elias and the complexities of love, addiction, and recovery. She emphasizes the cathartic nature of writing and the therapeutic benefits it provided in her healing process.

“It's a book about recovery and resilience and finding your way back to your center after having been through a time of such drama and trauma.” (53:17)

Advice for People in Their 20s

Towards the end of the episode, Elizabeth offers poignant advice for those in their twenties:

1. Live Authentically: Emphasize living your own life imperfectly rather than imitating someone else’s perfect facade.

   “It is better to live your own life imperfectly than to live a perfect imitation of somebody else's life.” (57:13)

2. Avoid Romantic Enmeshment: Protect your sense of self by avoiding over-dependence on romantic relationships for validation and happiness.

   “Avoid romantic enmeshment at such a young age... I turned myself into all sorts of people and gave all this time and energy that I wish I could have every single minute of it back.” (60:03)

Conclusion

Episode 271 of The Psychology of Your 20s offers a profound exploration of the anxieties surrounding purpose and the societal pressures to find one's unique path. Elizabeth Gilbert’s insights provide listeners with actionable strategies to navigate these challenges, emphasizing the importance of presence, authentic living, and creative expression as antidotes to anxiety. By redefining the concepts of hobby, job, career, and calling, the episode equips young adults with the tools to build a fulfilling and balanced life amidst the uncertainties of their twenties.

Notable Quotes

1. Purpose Anxiety:

   “There is this thing called purpose anxiety, and I scarcely know anybody who doesn't suffer from it.” – Matt (Elizabeth Gilbert) [08:32]

2. Defining a Hobby:

   “Hobbies actually bring an end to anxiety...do something simply because it's a pleasure.” – Matt [15:05]

3. Living Authentically:

   “It is better to live your own life imperfectly than to live a perfect imitation of somebody else's life.” – Matt [57:13]

4. Opposite of Anxiety:

   “The opposite of anxiety is creativity.” – Matt [29:39]

5. Grounding Techniques:

   “You have to get low to the earth and go to the beach or go in the ocean... connect with elemental things like fire and water and earth.” – Matt [42:49]

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Time stamps are indicative and based on the provided transcript.

Transcript

[Patricia]

This year I've been really rethinking my relationship with alcohol and so I decided to commit to Dry January to really kickstart 2025 and just test myself. Heineken 00 is the perfect companion for Dry January because you feel like you're still participating when you're out for dinner with friends, out for drinks, whilst you're still meeting your lifestyle goals. I'm a big beer fan, so I also love the taste of Heineken 00 + being alcohol free you can enjoy whenever refreshment calls Heineken 00 local Heineken retailer or for [e-mail] you must be 21+ to purchase. Enjoy Heineken responsibly and good luck with Dry January.

[Emilia]

Do you want to see into the future? Do you want to understand an invisible force that's shaping your life? Do you want to experience the frontiers of what makes us human? On tech stuff we travel from the mines of Congo to the surface of Mars, from conversations with Nobel Prize winners to the depths of TikTok to ask burning questions about technology, from high tech to low culture and everywhere in between. Join us Listen to tech stuff on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

I'm Emilia, host of the podcast Crumbs. For years I had to rely on other people to tell me my story and what I heard wasn't good. You really Last night it felt like I lived most of my life in a blackout. I was trapped in addiction. I had to grab the lamp and smashed it against the walls. And then I decided I wanted to tell my own story. Listen to crumbs on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Joel]

Joel, the holidays are a blast, but the financial hangover? That can be a huge bummer. If you are out there and you're dreading the new statement email that reveals the massive balance that you may have racked up. Well, you could use our help.

[Matt]

That's right.

[Joel]

I'm Joel and I am Mat from the how to Money podcast. Our show is all about helping you make sense of your personal finances so you can ditch your pesky credit card debt once and for all, make real progress on other crucial financial goals that you've got, and just feel more in control of your money in general. You know it. For money advice without the judgment and jargon, listen to how to Money on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Patricia]

Hello everybody. Welcome back to the Show. Welcome back to the podcast. New listeners, old listeners, where you are in the world. It is so great to have you here back for another episode as we of course break down the psychology of our twenties. If you have been a long time listener of the podcast, you will know that there is one TED Talk I reference probably three to four times a year, and it's titled your elusive Creative Genius by Elizabeth Gilbert. This TED Talk entirely changed how I thought about success, how I thought about inspiration, failure, and on a deeper level, what it really meant to be human. When Elizabeth, or Liz, as she's more commonly known as, released her book Big Magic, it once again changed my life and it is firmly one of my favorite, probably most read books of all time. When I was first really getting listeners with the podcast back in 2021, someone asked me who my dream guest would be and I said Liz, because of that book, because of how incredible her mind is, because of all the books that she has since written and all the wisdom that she really has to share. And it was a huge dream back in 2021, one that I really never thought was going to happen. But now in 2025, it's somehow finally come true. And I couldn't be more excited to have Liz on the podcast to discuss how to find our purpose, how to keep making and creating things, dealing failure, managing success, and the best advice she has for people in her 20s. This episode is so very special to me and will forever have a place in my heart. But I also just hope you all enjoy it and you learn something. All right, without further ado, I want to welcome on Liz Gilbert to the show to the psychology of your 20s. Liz, can you briefly introduce yourself and tell us about your work?

[Matt]

Yes. First of all, I'm so happy to be here and honored to be here talking to you. My name is Liz Gilbert. I'm known, I guess professionally as Elizabeth Gilbert, but that feels weird to introduce myself that way. I'm the author of Eat, Pray Love and Big Magic and the Signature of All Things and City of Girls and a bunch of other books. And I also have, I'm a, I'm a fiction and non fiction author, but I also spend a lot of time teaching and I don't teach writing because I don't know how, but I teach a sort of general spirit of creativity, what I call creative living, a way of living where I simply define it this way where you make your decisions based on your curiosity rather than your fear and, and that ends up becoming a very creative life. So I'm sort of known also for that as being a teacher of creativity and kind of spirituality.

[Patricia]

That would be an amazing job title.

[Matt]

To have a teacher teacher of creativity and spirituality.

[Patricia]

Yeah. I'm like, all right, so new career, Pat Unlocked. That sounds amazing.

[Matt]

Great.

[Patricia]

Let's change the vision board up. I think I said this in my introduction, but most people know you for Big Mad, not for Big Magic, for Eat, Pray, Love. Probably I think I was a little bit too young to really understand Eat, Pray Love, but I did really understand Big Magic. And it was just such a beautiful book that I continue to reference to this day. Do you remember, you know, in the. In the interest of understanding purpose, do you remember when you kind of realized, like, oh, I'm gonna be a writer. I'm gonna be this creative, curious person. This is my calling.

[Matt]

Yeah. And I'm really glad you used the word calling because I would love to just launch in with some thoughts that I have about the word purpose and how. How much anxiety that word causes. Can we. Can we just start with that?

[Patricia]

Absolutely. Because it's something. Obviously a lot of people listening to this are like in their 20s, and the amount of them that email me being like, I don't know what my purpose is.

[Matt]

Okay, let's get into it.

[Patricia]

Yeah, please get into it.

[Matt]

My honeys, my sweeties. You have been so terribly misinformed. This is my opinion. Everything I'm saying is my own opinion. Take what you like and leave the rest. But I will throw out into the void and it will land on whoever it needs to land on that. There is this thing called purpose anxiety, and I scarcely know anybody who doesn't suffer from it. And I know some of the people who appear to be at the very, very, very top of a purpose driven life and have apparently achieved it. And they also still suffer from pur. Anxiety. And the reason that everybody suffers from purpose anxiety is because everyone in Western contemporary culture has been told this same theology. And it really is a theology. And you've been told variants of this from the time you were born. And you've heard it in every graduation and commencement speech and in every self help book. And no one has ever questioned whether it even makes sense or whether it is even true. But here's the theology. Everyone is born with a unique purpose that is completely their own and totally unrelated to anybody else. It's one thing that only you can do. Nobody but you can do it. So already that creates anxiety in me because there's 8 billion people on the planet, and so what I'm Supposed to find something in me that is that no one else can do. Like that doesn't the math don't even add up on that? Right. And you should, you should know it from the time that you're born and, and you should always know what it is. It should be extremely clear what it is. And then your job is to devote your entire life to that one thing and to, and if you miss the boat and it's too late and you haven't gotten on that you should be extremely anxious and ashamed of yourself that you don't know what it is. I mean this is what people are taught. And then you must become the master of that thing. You must devote an enormous amount of time, attention and money to mastering whatever that thing is, that unique spark that nobody else has. And then you must monet it. Because if you make your money doing anything other than the thing that is your unique spark, spark and purpose, then you are a failure. And it's not enough that you must monetize it, you must become the best at it. And you must also create opportunity for others. And you must then change the world through your purpose. This is what literally everybody is told. And no wonder everybody is full of anxiety about it. And I mean if we can just break it down for a minute, it's. First of all, it comes from a place of enormous hubris and arrogance to portend to believe, like to think that you can know what you are here for when we don't even know what this is, this planet consciousness, this experience. Like we don't even know. We literally have no idea what's going on. And like why your soul was dropped into your particular body and born into your body. Like we can't know. And anybody who pretends that they know I should, you should be very suspicious of them. So there's an enormous arrogance. Also. Can you hear how self centered it is? Purpose theology comes from Western men. And so it's all about I have to be incredibly important. I actually have to be the most important. And I have to change the world in my own image. And this whole idea even that you have to change the world, there's a tremendous arrogance in that too. Because I think at this point if you look around the planet, the world is pretty clearly saying like, I wish you people would stop changing me.

[Patricia]

Yeah, it's saying like you've done enough, take a break.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah, you've done enough. And that's led the most purpose driven lives are the people who have perhaps done the most damage to the planet and to other people. So everything about it is so distorted and, and, and it's, and all it does is cause people to suffer. And I've met, and I've met the people who are living at the top of that game and they are not relaxed, they are not at peace and they never know whether they've done enough. Have they changed the world enough? Have they made a big enough impact? Oh, and if you're thinking, great, I can't wait to die because then this will, this whole purpose anxiety thing will be over. You're also supposed to leave a legacy, right? So it like never ends. The self centeredness, the arrogance and the anxiety of purpose theology never end. So what I am gently here to offer as a counterpoint to a purpose driven life is a life of presence. Because the other thing about a purpose driven life is that it constantly has you in the future. You can't live a purpose driven, anxiety driven theology without always being locked in the future of like, who am I going to become? What am I going to do? What is my impact going to be? Who am I going to affect? And you completely miss life. You completely miss life. I mean my, my favorite spiritual teacher, Byron Katie says if you want to suffer, get a future. So this obsession with the future will bring you nothing but pain. So the, the contrary position to take is a life of, of presence, which is simply being a witness to the extraordinary, unknowable, miraculous strangeness of being a human being on this planet and observing it and being like this is so, I mean, because it is objectively interesting. It's, it's not safe, this planet. It never has been for people. But it's a really interesting experience.

[Patricia]

It definitely is.

[Matt]

It's a really interesting experience to be who you are in your culture, that you were dropped in at this moment of history. And I think that experience itself would like a few people to relax and observe it and actually be like, this is wild. Like, this is absolutely wild. And I don't know what I am and I don't know who I am and I don't know where I'm going and I don't know what I'm supposed to be doing, but it is very interesting to be here. And if you start from that perspective and you begin to follow the track of your curiosity of what's most interesting, you will have an interesting life. You may not have a life that certain kinds of people would look at and say is successful, but I'm not interested in those kinds of people.

[Patricia]

They're not part of the conversation I.

[Matt]

Have a friend who says, everybody's got a brother in law named Phil who's like, yeah, but what are you doing? Like, what are you doing for your job? Like, what's your plan? Like, must be nice to take, you know, must be nice to, you know, like, just, yeah, everyone's got that in their life. And Phil must be ignored.

[Patricia]

Phil must be ignored. It's so funny. Like, I see this on social media all the time where it's like, often some young woman or young man like, exploring some creative side of them making posting just for fun, whatever it is, writing just for fun. And there's always someone in the comments being like, must be nice not to work a full time job. Like, must be nice to take a break. And I'm like, well, yeah, it is really nice. I'm sure it is really nice for them to do that.

[Matt]

In fact, it is. Thank you.

[Patricia]

It's lovely. In fact, it's lovely. Like, I get it all the time with people. Like, people will come across like the podcast and come across like my online presence and we'll be like, wow, you call that work, you call that whatever, like, and get really upset with me. And I'm like, honestly, all I'm hearing there is a desire to have what I have. Like, you think that your reality of needing to prove yourself and work hard and never take a day off and always be like, thinking about your family and thinking about everyone else, like, that doesn't actually sound particularly desirable. So I often, like, that's how I try and treat it. I'm like, I just feel kind of bad for those people who were raised again with the theology that you have one purpose and if you haven't found it, bad luck, time to be miserable and just work the 9 to 5.

[Matt]

You have wasted your life. It also treats life, rather than being a miraculous, mysterious, unknowable gift, it treats it as something that must be earned, that you must earn your place, you must earn your right to be here. And whatever created you doesn't seem to think so because it just dropped you here. It didn't seem to think you had to earn your right to be here. And you know, I also, I would love to just take a moment and talk about these four different things that people often amalgamate into one thing. And that also causes anxiety. And the four things are hobby, job, career and calling. So I just want to take a moment and distinguish between these four things. Okay, so a hobby is something that you do because it's fun and you like it and that's the thing that you post on social media and people are like, must be nice to take a pottery class. Yeah, it is nice. I. You know, and hobbies actually bring an end to anxiety, like puttering about making things for no reason, doing something simply because it's a pleasure. Until very recently, everyone had hobbies and most of life was just people doing stuff because they liked doing it and it was fun. And it doesn't have to be monetized. You don't have to be the best at it. You don't have to become famous at it. My biggest suggestion to people who are in purpose anxiety is to get a hobby that has absolutely no connection to anything productive and enjoy it because life is also meant to be enjoyed. So that's a hobby. A job. A job is a thing that unless you are a trust fund baby or landed gentry, you have to have. But here's the thing, you don't have to like it. Like, I've had so many jobs in my life that I didn't like. You don't have to like it. It doesn't have to be your purpose. You don't have to be great at it. You don't have to come. It doesn't have to consume your entire life. It's just a thing you have to do to make some money so that you can go home and have hobbies. Right.

[Patricia]

Like, I love that way of thinking about it.

[Matt]

Get a job. You know, just get a job. It doesn't like, like. And you, it's like, don't give your heart to it. Deliver 30% at work, you know, like they'll never know. Like a job is a place where you can go and just phone it in and they'll never know. Yeah.

[Patricia]

I always say to people, I'm always like, just act your wage. Like, act your wage. Like if you're getting wage.

[Matt]

Exactly.

[Patricia]

Like if you're getting paid minimum wage, Just minimum work.

[Matt]

And this goes a totally against capitalism, purpose anxiety to say that in theology. But just, yeah, just show up. Do the least you can do to get your, to keep your job and then have your life be outside of your job with the things that you're curious about, the things that you enjoy, the people that you like being with. So that's a job. It's not the same as a hobby. The next thing is a career. So a career is a job that you're passionate about. Right. That's all a career is. Don't act like your job is your career if you're not passionate about it. Like don't try to make a job into a career if you're just like, this is just my job, you know? But if you are passionate about it and you feel like, this is what I'm here to do and I'm here to serve humanity in this way, then you pour yourself into your job. So a career is a job that you pour yourself into because it brings you so much love and satisfaction, and it doesn't even matter how much they pay you. You would want to do it any. And like you, you really do show up for a career. But you don't have to have a career. Like, you do have to have a job, but you don't have to have a career. Right? And if you are in a career and you don't love it, you should quit and get a job.

[Patricia]

Yeah, I love your career.

[Matt]

Is destroying your life. Just go get a job. There's lots of jobs. Just go get a job and then have hobbies and then have friends. And then the final thing is a calling. And a calling is something that you feel you are compelled to do because it's a spiritual fulfillment. And. And not everybody has one, and not everybody needs to have one. And if you have one, you'll know because you already have it. And if you don't have one, you don't have to go out there searching for it, because don't worry about it. It's something you can't create. You can't create a calling. You either, like higher power gave you one or didn't. And maybe one will come later or maybe it won't, so you can just relax about it. And if you' a calling, then you devote yourself to it. And it's got absolutely nothing to do with whether you're being paid or not. And no one can ever take it away from you. I can lose my career. So my calling is to be a writer. And I knew that ever since I was nine years old. But it wasn't my career until I was 30. But through that entire time, before it became my career, it was my calling. So I did it while I had jobs. I did my calling. Nobody wanted me to do it. Nobody paid me to do it. Nobody was interested in me doing it. And then over time, it became my career. My career can be destroyed. AI can take my career away. People can fire me. The world can decide. It doesn't want to read Elizabeth Gilbert books anymore. Like, there are so many ways I can lose my career. I'm not in control of that, and I'm aware of that. And If I ever lose my career, I'll just go get a job, like, and go back to having hobbies. But nobody can take my calling away. Nobody could stop me from writing when I wanted to write, even though they weren't paying me to. And nobody can stop me from writing now if my career folds. So that's the difference between a hobby, a job, a calling, and a career. And it's so important to know the difference because we live in a culture that has pushed them all together and said that you should. You should have one thing, that's all of that, and it isn't. It isn't true. So I just want to just clarify that for everybody.

[Patricia]

I can honestly feel the anxiety fading from people right now, because that is probably the biggest series dilemma of questions that I get, which is, how do I know what I'm meant to do? How do I choose between these two jobs? That one I'm more passionate about, one I'm less passionate about, how do I, you know, get the spark back for life? And honestly, I think a lot of the questions come back to that distinction between these four very distinct, when you think about it, categories of. Of being and categories of existing. I actually, when I first started the podcast, it was very similar. Like, it was this weird thing where I just knew that this is what I was meant to do. It was a calling, and I genuinely had no listeners. I recorded it in the back of my car. And I always tell the story of, like, in the first episodes, you can literally hear, like, trucks going by. You can hear birds in the background because I'm recording it on my phone, and it really didn't matter who listened. I just felt like I had to do it. There's an analogy that you have in your book and also in your TED Talk about how an idea will sometimes just be dropped in your. In your lap, and you kind of have to make a contract with it. And it kind of appears out of nowhere, right? And it's just like, oh, oh, my God. I've just had this brilliant idea. Some spirit has given it to me. The wind has shifted and brought it to me. And I just love how you say, it's like whatever it is is trying to find the person who's going to make it reality. Like, it's going to try and find the best conduit for it to be real. And I honestly felt that about the psychology of your 20s. It was like people asked me how I came up with the idea, and I'm like, I genuinely have no idea. Like, I Have no idea. It just came to me and I just knew I had to do it. But I do think that my relationship with it changed when I started making money. And when it did become the thing that paid my bills, that allowed me, you know, it became a job, a hobby, a career, and a calling all at once. And I'm sure that was probably the case with writing for you as well.

[Matt]

100.

[Patricia]

What. What happened when that, when that shifted, when the dynamic shifted entirely?

[Matt]

Well, yeah, when money is introduced, it changes everything. And it's not that I'm anti money. I'm very delighted that I can make my living doing this. I, I think the really important thing that, That I have, that I've had to remember and I've had to carry this through my entire career is that. Well, I mean, it doesn't matter what your career is. This. I'm just thinking this is actually the truth. No matter what you're doing, whether you're a civil engineer or a, Or a painter, like, it doesn't, you know, nothing is promised. You know, nothing is promised and nothing is owed. No. Nowhere was there some sort of contract, either a social contract or a spiritual contract, that said, you're assured this. You get to, you know, like, this will continue, or you, you're allowed to have this. Like, you know, we're seeing that, that as, as societies are breaking down in unions of radio. Like, none of this is promised. And, and you can get angry about that, or you can just be a Taoist about it and sort of just go with the flow of energy, of reality. And there's a beautiful line that I quote to myself all the time that's from the Bhagavad Gita, which is this ancient Indian Hindu spiritual text. And there's a line in there where one of the gods says to one of the heroes, you are entitled to the labor, but you are not entitled to the fruit of the labor. And that is something that is hard to land on modern years because we have a lot of sense of entitlement. And it's like, well, I worked really hard. I should. I worked really hard. I therefore should. That's the cal. That's the calculus of capitalism. You know, like, I worked hard, and therefore I should have this. And, and the actual reality of life on Earth is. Nobody told you that. That's true. I mean, some people told you that who don't know how the world works. The way the world actually works is like, it shrugs. It's like the world, you know, the universe is a little bit Indifferent, you know, the universe is a little bit like, maybe you'll have it, maybe you won't. Maybe you'll have it for a while, maybe you won't, you know, Like, I love that about like the sort of classical Indian theology and ideas of God is like, God is much less a sort of reasonable reigning judge than a kind of batty old lady who lives on the top of a hill and has money and gives it to some people who don't deserve it and gives it to other people who do, you know, and like, and like makes promises and doesn't keep them and is a little bit senile. And it's like, that's the actual reality of life, you know, and so I'm not entitled. I've. I'm not entitled. I've had books canceled, you know, Like I, I had a book canceled two years ago right before it was published, you know, and it was like, wow, I could freak out about this and be like, I worked for four years on this. This is a tragedy for me that this book isn't being published. Or I can live in accordance with reality and be like, oh, that's interesting. That is objectively interesting that that happened. That is not what I expected. I think so much of life is just. That is expected. That's interesting. And the difference between living a life of anxiety and living a life of creativity. And my friend Martha Beck just recently wrote a book about how the, the antidote for anxiety, the opposite of anxiety, is not relaxation, it's creativity. It's creativity is the only way out of anxiety and the only way into creativity is to live from a spirit of. That's interesting. Rather than a spirit of like, what a nightmare. It's also a drama free life to live from a place of like, that's interesting. Oh, somebody broke up with me who I thought I was going to marry. That is interesting. Wow. I, I really wanted kids and I can't have them. That is really interesting. Yeah. The person I love the most in the world died who I thought was going to be like my anchor forever. That's interesting. You know, that is so interesting. What am I going to do now? So on the video game of Life, like, what is my next move? And the next move, if you want to have a life without a lot of anxiety, is what would be the most interesting thing I could do.

[Patricia]

Now I also love a very equal quote which is the opposite of anxiety is trust. And I think that also comes into play here where you can be thrown like the most awful, terrible circumstances. But if you trust that you are going to make it through, maybe if you trust that you are capable of finding a route out or finding your way back to a life that you really love and that you want, you will make it through most of the time, like, self trust is just such, like, I don't know, it's just such an antidote to so much. It's an antidote to imposter syndrome. It's an antidote to a lot of anxiety. And I really want to link back to what you were saying before of, you know, God, the universe is somebody old lady, like, living on the top of a hill, just giving out money. Because I see this a lot with people and their 20s where it's like, if I work X amount of hard, I will receive Y amount of reward. And I always think about in the context of people studying for exams. Right. Very common thing that you do during this decade, someone could study the exact same amount of hours of you as you have the exact same content and get a completely different grade. Could understand it completely differently. And sometimes, like, somebody can study a.

[Matt]

Lot less than you and get a much better grade.

[Patricia]

Yeah, exactly, exactly. And it's like, okay, so we all think that it's just hard work. And it was actually something I had to really accept where I was like, it's okay for a bit of this to be luck. Like, it's actually okay.

[Matt]

Sure, yeah.

[Patricia]

And I kept worrying I'd be like, well, luck isn't. Luck isn't promised. So if my life has been given to me by luck, like, as soon as the tables turn, I could not have my life anymore. So I'm going to use hard work as an insurance. And eventually you have to kind of let that go because it makes you feel like every single thing that you do is tied to how much you want it and how many hours you're willing to put into it. Which is not true. It's just simply not.

[Matt]

It's all based on the devastating wish that life would be fair and sensible. And there's very little evidence that I have seen to support that it is either of those things. But it is once again, interesting. The batty old lady who lives on the top of the hill, who's half senile and holds all sorts of power and forgets your name, like, like, promises you an inheritance.

[Patricia]

And then, yeah, it's like, I already gave it to that person.

[Matt]

I'm sorry, I gave it to the gardener.

[Patricia]

Like, I thought, you know, like, wait.

[Matt]

But I'm your grandchild. Well, are you? You Know, like, it's, it's so. And this is why I think that the manifestation theology is a bit dangerous. This idea. You made a sort of joke about vision boards and vision boards can be really sweet and there is something about that. There is a. It's not that you're helpless. There is a. There's a push and a pull. There's a part that you have control over and there's a part that you don't. And the way I describe it in Eat, Pray, Love, it's like a circus trained circus acrobat riding on two horses at the same time. You know, like one foot on two horses around a ring. And, and the play that I feel in my own life between my own will and what. What can only be called destiny or fate is. I've only got a foot on one of those horses, you know, and the other one, it looks like it's running right alongside me. But at any moment, anything could happen, you know, like, anything could happen that changes the game. And, and how do we hold our equanimity? And. And they're both running at full speed, by the way, you know, and. And the really good acrobats are the ones who are just like, in their. Sparkling in their sparkly leotard with a big smile like. And a plume of, like, here we are, we're on the ride, you know, so it's, it's. Yeah, but there's. There is no promised outcome. The outcome is not promised. You are entitled to the labor, but you're not entitled to the fruit of the labor. And, and if, gosh, if there's one thing that, that could make you happier than anything else, it would be to release any sense of entitlement to anything. Because the most depressed, outraged and anxious that I have been in my life has been when I didn't get what I want. And, and I had to suffer through some sort of a tantrum about it for however amount of time until I surrendered to. You're not. You ain't getting. It doesn't matter how much you want it. You. You cannot make that person love you. You cannot make that person love you. You cannot change the past. You cannot change people's opinions of. You can't. And so the. I think the reason I'm a lot more serene in my 50s than I was in my 20s was because in my 20s I was still pretty sure I could get what I wanted if I tried hard enough and worked hard enough or manipulated enough. And I couldn't.

[Patricia]

Yeah, that's a lesson That's a lesson in that we all learn eventually. And I always think about it as. Have you seen the Harry Potter films?

[Matt]

Yes, of course. Do I not have eyes?

[Patricia]

I know sometimes you've got to ask because there'll be people who like, what? No, I always think about this scene, it must be in the first movie, where they're going to find the Philosopher's Stone, and they fall into this pit of vines that, like, choke them and, like, just tightening. And every time they, like, struggle against it and they move, it just gets tighter and tighter and tighter. And it must be like Hermione or someone realizes, like, if I just relax, they'll let me go. They'll let me go and I will just fall straight through. And it just is such a hard thing to do because naturally you want a good life and you want to be happy and you want to find love and you want to feel like you are here for a reason. Obviously, you can't know what that is. So sometimes you do just have to do the opposite of what every single instinct in your body is telling you to do. And that is to just relax. And I think that there is a difference between survival instincts and an instinct just for living. And I think our living instinct and our life instinct is to relax and is to just have a little bit more fun. But we're confusing that with our survival instincts, which are like, no, run, produce, like, hit, scream. Somewhere along the way, like, those have gotten crossed. And so now we just feel a lot more panicked about everything. And we think that small things are going to cost us our life. You know, not having a job that we love, not having people like us, like, all these things are a lot more going to be a lot more costly than they actually are. That's just how I see it. When I relaxed into that, it felt a lot better. Hey, y'all, this is Reed from the God's country podcast.

[Matt]

We had the one and only Bobby Bones in the studio this week, and we cover everything from his upbringing to his outdoor experiences with the stepdad, Arkansas.

[Joel]

Keith, to the state of country music.

[Patricia]

We may even end the episode with.

[Matt]

A little jam set session led by Bobby himself. Y'all be sure and listen to this episode of God's country with Bobby bones.

[Patricia]

On the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or.

[Matt]

Wherever you get your podcast.

[Patricia]

Don't go shopping at Target with khaki pants and a red shirt on. Don't go shopping at Target with khaki pants and a red polo shirt on.

[Joel]

Switch up Song.

[Patricia]

An old lady came up to me, she said, how much.

[Matt]

For this cream of wheat?

[Jon Stewart]

Jon Stewart is back at the Daily show, and he's bringing his signature wit and insight straight to your ears with the Daily Show Ears Edition podcast. Dive into John's unique take on the biggest topics in politics, entertainment, sports, and more. Joined by the sharp voices of the show's correspondence and contributors, and with extended interviews and exclusive weekly headline roundups, this podcast gives you content you won't find anywhere else. Ready to laugh and stay informed? Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Matt]

Welcome. My name is Paola Pedrosa, a medium and the host of the Ghost Therapy podcast, where it's not just about connecting with deceased loved ones. It's about learning through them and their new perspective. Join me on the Ghost Therapy podcast.

[Patricia]

Whoa. My lights in my living room just flickered. I'm a little nervous. I'm excited. I'm excited nervous. You know, I'm a very spiritual person, so I'm like, I'm ready and open.

[Matt]

That was amazing. I feel so grateful right now. I got to speak to my great grandmother Abuela, and she gave me a.

[Patricia]

Lot of really good advice that I'm.

[Matt]

Gonna have to really think about. Wow. Okay.

[Patricia]

That's crazy. Yes, that is accurate.

[Matt]

Listen to the Ghost Therapy podcast as part of the My Cultura Podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast Podcasts.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

I started to live a double life when I was a teenager. Responsible and driven and wild and out of control. My head is pounding. I'm confused. I don't know why I'm in jail. It's hard to understand what hope is when you're trapped in a cycle of addiction. Addiction took me to the darkest places. I had an AK47 pointed at my head. But one night, a new door opened and I made it into the rooms of recovery. The path would have roadblocks and detours, stalls and relapses. But when I was feeling the most lost, I found hope with community, and I made my way back. This season, join me on my journey through addiction and recovery. A story told in 12 steps. Listen to Crumbs. As part of the Mike Podcast Network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Patricia]

I want to ask you about a bit of a turning point in your career and in your life, and it was the success of E Pray Love. Julia Roberts starred you in a movie that's probably something that only three or four people can say. But what happened afterwards? You know, you wrote this book, it's beautiful. It became incredibly popular. How did you manage or deal with the expectations that you maybe experienced for your next book or for after the initial fame and maybe passed?

[Matt]

Oh, what a great question. So do you know, I mean, I'm talking like I know anything about mathematics, but do you know the principle of absolute value?

[Patricia]

I'm not, no. I'm not even going to claim to pretend to.

[Matt]

I'm going to just throw it out there and explain it. But like, imagine that you're looking at a number line and there's a zero in the middle. And then the positive numbers go out in one direction, positive one through 10. And then the negative numbers go out in the other direction, negative one through ten. Right? So pick a number three. Right, so there's a positive number three and there's a negative number three right on that line. But they share the same absolute value. So the absolute value means the distance from zero. So there's a dis. There's a zero in our emotional life, which I would, I would describe as just sort of like our like stability, constancy, a sense of belonging, a sense of like, balance. That's zero, that's point zero. Right. And then there are these, these horrible things that happen on the negative side of the scale and these wonderful things that happen on the positive side of the scale. Here's where things can get really confusing. Sometimes it makes sense that when a horrible thing happens, a divorce or an illness or a death or a terrible breakup or massive disappointment or, or a natural disaster, it makes sense that you would be really shook by it. But it doesn't make sense that you would be equally shook when a wonderful thing happens. Because we're trained to think that the wonderful things are great. But to your nervous system, there's an absolute value of distance from zero. If zero is what I'm used to, what I am accustomed to and what I am normal to, and a really big swing in the positive direction. A number 10. So Eat Pray loves a number 10 on that. It's like you just wrote, I heard the other day that it's like the second best selling memoir of all time.

[Patricia]

You know, it's like, yeah, so famous.

[Matt]

Like, yeah, Julia Roberts, you're a millionaire now. Julia Roberts is playing you in a movie. You're famous, you never have to get a job again. You know, like all this stuff has happened. This is a 10. This is a plus 10. The absolute value is it's 10 steps from 0, which has the same impact on my nervous system as if there was an earthquake or a death in the family, because it has taken me so far away from what I thought was normal. Right. So it's really important to understand and to expect in life that really good news. Things can also shake you to the core because it's a long, long way away from normal. So what happened was I had to get back to neutral. I had to get back to zero. And the only way that I could do that was that I took a year off, almost a year off from doing anything in public, and I started a garden. I literally had to get back. I had to get on my knees in the ground because I felt so ungrounded. People were telling me all sorts of things about who I was and what I was and what my cultural importance was. And so I just had to get down to the level of the earth. And I. I gardened for a year. I didn't do any speaking events, I didn't teach, I didn't write anything. And I grew vegetables. That's how I got over it. And after a year in the garden, I remember it was like wintertime, and I was raking up the leaves and composting things. You know, calloused hands and. And, like, just dirty clothes is what did it. And. And I was. And then I heard in my head the first line to the next book. It was like. It's like the leaves were falling and like a leaf fell into my mind. And it was the first line to the next book. And I was like, okay, I think I'm ready to. So. So you have to. Whether you've had a hugely positive, massively fantastic, big new crazy thing happen in your life or a hugely negative, massively horrible, big new crazy thing in your life, you've got to learn how to ground. And it's very hard to do in this day and age, especially with the constant distractions of. Of everything that's on your phone. But you've got to kind of get, like, low to the earth earth and like, go to the beach and go in the ocean. Like, it's. You have to get kind of animal, you know, it's like, I've got to get with elemental back down to the waters, like fire and water and earth, because. And you have to remember the sort of element of yourself rather than all the kind of crazy information that people are telling you about you.

[Patricia]

I remember when the psychology of your 20s was becoming really, really popular and it was going viral, and it was just thousands of People listening to it all the time. I remember never being more miserable and, like, crying constantly. I would call my partner, Tom, and I would call my mom and my dad and just be like, this is going to get taken away from me. How do I adjust to this? And I remember exactly the moment when I was like, I'm going to be okay. And I went back to where I grew up, which is Corumbin in Queensland. It's paradise on earth. And I went on this hike and I found a mango tree that had dropped.

[Matt]

All mango.

[Patricia]

Exactly. And I. It's so funny you were saying that, because I literally remember picking up a mango and, like, I didn't have a knife, a fork, and I just, like, ripped it open with my hands and, like, was eating it and I was like, oh, my God, I'll always have this. Like, I can come and find this mango tree if anything terrible happens. And.

[Matt]

Yeah, off the earth. Yeah, exactly. You belong. What is. Mary Oliver has a poem. Your part in the belonging of things.

[Patricia]

Yes.

[Matt]

You know, and great, great success and great failure can lose your sense of belonging. But the. But if you get close to nature, you'll remember that you belong here. I love that story.

[Patricia]

It was amazing. I still remember the taste of that mango. Like, it's very vivid. But. And I went back actually recently and the mango tree wasn't there. So I guess it just appeared when I needed it. It's actually something you may not know. Is that to celebrity name drop in here? Taylor Swift actually referred one of your TED talks. Do you. Do you know this?

[Matt]

I did hear the hype.

[Patricia]

You do know this. Okay. And I feel like what was so interesting was she was saying. Referencing you and her creative process and being like, the drive to keep creating even when people hate what I've done, even when I've failed, even when I've, you know, not have the success that I wanted, I just have to create. And I always like that analogy as well. Like, not to. Not that anyone's theory about how they should live their life requires proof, but, you know, seeing that her creative process has continued to evolve and allowed her great success, I feel like she's kind of onto something. And that means, you know, that's came from you. So I think when it comes to, like, imposter syndrome and feeling like we're going to fail because we've had some success or feeling like we need to now do things for other people, true creatives really understand that, again, it's not just a job, it's not a profession. It's a calling. And Whether you have 0 readers, 0 listeners, 0 viewers, or a million, hopefully, like, what you're creating will be the same. But within that journey, how have you dealt with failure? I know you talked about you had a book canceled. I don't even know what that means, to be completely honest.

[Matt]

Neither did I till it happened. No, I wrote, I wrote a book that was set in Russia and a novel that was set in Russia. And when I announced it, there was an enormous outcry from Ukrainians saying, like, you know, how could you be doing this right now and pulling the world's attention to Russia when we're being killed and murdered? And actually, I, I, I'm, it made a lot of sense to me when I heard. So when I say that it was canceled, that's a dramatic way to say, I like drama, I'm an artist, but it's a dramatic way to say, I mean, it was quite dramatic because it was like trending on Twitter and, you.

[Patricia]

Know, they, yeah, when it, people hate you.

[Matt]

Thousands of people are hating me and telling me that I work for Putin and that I'm awful and, and going on goodreads and putting 1 star reviews for a book that wasn't even published yet. So there were thousands of one star reviews saying, like, this is the worst book in the world. We hate this book. You know, I mean, it was, it, you know, it was a dramatic moment, but I grounded myself. I have practices that I do and spiritual practices that I've learned over the years to ground myself so that I could actually listen to what they were saying rather than feeling that I was being persecuted. And when I listened to what they were saying, it made a lot of sense to me. And I was like, you know what? I get it. I'm going to postpone this book. So it just, we just decided not to publish it. Someday maybe it'll be published. But it became very simple. Once you're grounded, the decisions become very simple. When you're in anxiety or fight, flight or trauma, you don't have access to your reasonable mind and everything feels like it's on fire. So that's why it's so important to learn how to ground. But I was going to say one other thing about the creativity. I think part of the thing is that I know how creativity works through my nervous system and through my mind. And I know that my fear center is the oldest part of my conscious mind. So before we had anything else, when we were evolving into these humanoid forms, we were given this incredible capacity for fear. And Alarm. My friend Martha calls it 15 puppies and a snake. So. Or 15 puppies and a cobra. Which means if you're in a room and there's 15 puppies and a cobra, your attention is going to be on the cobra. You know, like if it isn't, you're not going to live long. If you're the kind of person who's like, oh, there's about the puppies, you know, like you, you, your mind will be. And until that cobra is taken care of, you will not see those puppies. You know, like, that's reality of survival. That's the survival gene that you were talking about. We all have that. We're only here because our ancestors paid attention to the cobras. Right. So this is deeply embedded in my brain that I'm looking for things all the time that are gonna kill me. I'm looking for things that are gonna go wrong. It's, it's, it's wired in my creative mind. Only came in online about a hundred thousand years ago. Our shared creative mind, but based on what anthropologists and, and, and scientists believe. So it's new. The other one is billions of years old. The fear center is billions of years old. It's just been evolving and evolving and evolving. Even tadpoles have it, you know, But. So whenever I create something, the creative impulse comes and says, I want to make something that's new. My fear center. Its number one job is to never let me do anything new because it has to assume for my survival that anything new has the potential to kill me. So my fear only wants me to do what it does every, what I do every day. Because my fear is like, it's safe if you do this. I. No one has died yet from you doing this. So you're. So when I introduce into my mind, I'm going to do this new thing, my fear freaks out. And it's like, you cannot do that. That will kill us. We don't know. My fear is not allowed. My fear's job is to not let me do anything where it doesn't know what the outcome is.

[Patricia]

Yeah.

[Matt]

And creativity is nothing but doing things where you don't know what the outcome is. That's all it is. And that never changes. I mean, I've written 10 books now, and I still don't know what the outcome is going to be when I start writing a book and I still have my fear saying, you can't do it. I've got to shut it down. You're going to die. And so I. The fact That I know that that's what's happening from an evolutionary standpoint makes it easier for me to be like, oh, this is a natural process that my fears is saying these things, but my more evolved, more recent part of my brain, the Liz 4.0, actually would really like to try to do this thing. And I need to tell my fear that it's unlikely. No one has yet died from my books. So it's unlikely that somebody will die. Yeah, no.

[Patricia]

Maybe a severe paper cut, but yeah, that's about it. I think we're all right.

[Matt]

Maybe it fell on someone's head off a bookshelf, but I think that's about the worst damage that it's done.

[Patricia]

Yeah. I want to talk about now that we're on the theme of writing books. You literally, like three days ago, announced all the way to the river, and I watched the video that you put out explaining it, semi cried about it. Not to like, make myself seem like too much of a fan, but can you explain the premise of this book for people who may not know what went into making it?

[Matt]

Oh, so this is a. A memoir. And it's about my relationship with my best friend in the entire world ever, whose name was Raya Elias. We were friends for gosh, we're friends for 16 years. 15 or 16 years. And then we very gradually, over the course of that friendship, we fell in love with each other. And I was married to somebody who I loved very much. I was married to a man. She was gay. I wasn't or whatever. I don't even know what that means. I don't even care. And she was then diagnosed with terminal cancer. And at the time of her diagnosis, I was no longer able to, knowing that she had six months to live. I was no longer able to continue just pretending that this was my best friend. And I was. I needed to find my voice to her and to my now ex husband that I need to go be with this person in a different way. And she started to call her death the river. And she said, I want you to walk with me all the way to the river. And. And I did. And that may sound to people who are listening to it who don't know the story, like a very romantic story. And there were aspects of it that were very romantic. It was also an insane journey. She was a drug addict in recovery who went back into active drug addiction before her death in a way that just ripped the rug floor and ground out from under both of us. I fell into a state of totally toxic codependency. And love addiction with her. It was a hell of a time, and it was a hell of a story. And it's taken me seven years to write it because it took me this long to heal from it and to find my grounding again after that and to even understand what had happened. And in many ways, it's a book about how lost we can get from ourselves. Raya got very lost from her grounded center during that time. I got very lost from my grounded center during that time. And it's a book about recovery and resilience and finding your way back to. Back to your center after having been through a time of such drama and trauma.

[Patricia]

When you were writing it, did it feel most, like, cathartic? Like, do you feel like you wrote it more for yourself than for an audience? Or is there something you're kind of hoping that people are going to get out of it?

[Matt]

I always feel. I mean, I write. I write things in order to understand my life, and I. I write my way into understanding. So it was. It was absolutely cathartic. That said, it's the book I didn't want to write, you know, interesting. There are parts of that story that I was like, I just still want that to not have happened. Happened that way. Like, I still want. And I know we all have this in our lives, like, chapters of our life where it's like, listen, I bet I've reconciled with it and I've moved on, but, like, don't think. I still don't wish it went a different way, you know, that I had gotten a different outcome or that they had gone in a different way. But it is a lot. A lot of the books about surrender as well and surrendering into reality. So, yeah, I wrote it for myself, but I also. I think that it's part of my destiny to. To be a person who has things happen to her that are really hard and then interprets and translates those things and puts them out in public to say, like, here, has this ever happened to you? If so, here's some thoughts I have on this. You know, here's some things I've learned from this. And. And I think that's part of what I'm. I think that's part of what I'm meant to do. So even as I was writing the book and exposing these absolutely horrific aspects of her and me, or it's like, this is exactly the stuff I don't want people to know about me. This is exactly like, this is counter to image management, is to write a book like this. And my friend Glennon Doyle, the writer Glennon Doyle read it when it was a manuscript and said, this is the most. What did she say? The most self accountable thing I've ever read. Like, this is a master class in self accountability. But that's also what I feel. I really want to be a very self accountable person. I don't want to because the opposite of being self accountable is being a victim. And you know, it's a. That book was a forensic effort for me to try to. Is a forensic effort for me for. To try to be like, what was my part in this? You know, like, how did I. I do feel that at multiple points in our lives we will find ourselves saying, how did I end up here? Like, how did I end up in this. How did I end up in this toxic thing? How did I end up in this dysfunctional relationship? How did I end up in this abuse? How did I end up in this self abnegation and self betrayal? Like, how is that me? You know? And it's very easy to end up in those sorts of fields of confusion and not so easy to find serenity and clarity again, but it's findable. So I hope that the book helps people. Raya always wanted me to tell the story and said it'll help some people and so I'm hoping that it will.

[Patricia]

And when does it come out? That's probably the first thing I should have asked.

[Matt]

September 9th of 2025.

[Patricia]

So, so it's, it's, it's coming right around the corner. It's going to be an amazing but, but maybe very dark and deep Christmas present for someone. I like it. Nice learning.

[Matt]

I have been told by those who have read it. A friend just texted me yesterday and I gave him a copy and he said, I've been with your book all day. And I'm. He's like, I just keep going back and forth from laughing my head off to crying my eyes out. And I'm like, well, that feels about right. That's exactly what that time felt like to me.

[Patricia]

So, yeah, sounds like life. Well, I want to thank you so much. Now I want to ask you one final question. This is a question I ask all of my guests and I want to see what your answer is going to be. So what is your biggest piece of advice for people in their 20s or the thing you wish you knew when you were in your 20s? I know it's a, it is a big one. I'm sorry.

[Matt]

Okay. For me, I'll give two because they're separate. My biggest piece of Advice is again, I'm going back to the Bhagavad Gita. It is such a. I mean wisdom texts, ancient wisdom texts are so handy because they are the distillation of millennia of human experience and wisdom. So it's not an accident that I keep reaching for this 7,000 year old text and quoting from it. But one of the lines in there is it is better to live your own life imperfectly than to live a perfect imitation of somebody else's life. And that sounds like it could be a meme on Instagram right now, but it is. That is deep, deep wisdom. It is better to live your own life imperfectly than to live a perfect imitation of somebody else's life. I did a pretty good imitation in my 20s of a lot of lives that I had seen modeled for myself. And they it almost killed me and for me personally it would have. What I wish I had known is to avoid romantic enmeshment at such a young age. Even though it was the thing I wanted more than anything and longed for more than anything, and hunted more than anything, it actually took me the farthest away from myself, especially as a woman. It made me be in a constant state of response, especially to men. Where from the minute I woke up in the morning till the I always lived with somebody the minute I woke up in the morning till the minute I went to bed at night, I was aware of him. I was responding to him. I was shape shifting around him. I was trying to deliver. I was trying to deliver some version of myself that would be pleasing. And, and it was a part time job, I mean maybe a full time job in order to get from him whoever the hymn was, fill in the blank him. In order to get from him love, validation, acceptance and affection. I. I turned myself into all sorts of people and I gave all this time and energy that I wish I could have every single minute of that time back. Every single minute of time that I spent trying to get somebody to love me the way I wanted them to love me. I would like every single minute of that time back. And do you know what I would do at that time? Nothing. I would just sit around looking at things like reading books, walking around, eating mangoes off the tree, smelling pine cones, jumping in water. I would do nothing of any value if I had every minute of that time left. But the amends that I'm making to myself is that for the next half of my life I'm keeping it all. I'm keeping all that time for myself and to do nothing with.

[Patricia]

With I think that's an amazing philosophy. An amazing philosophy to have decenter, romantic partners in your 20s. Honestly, it's a great tip. So I want to just thank you one more time for coming on the podcast and for sharing all of your wisdom. I honestly feel like I've just done an hour of therapy. Free therapy. So thank you.

[Matt]

Me too.

[Patricia]

Give me the gift. Yeah, it works both ways. You are right.

[Matt]

And I am. I hope it's not patronizing for me to say this to you, like sister to sister, woman to woman. I am so proud of you.

[Patricia]

Oh, my goodness. Stop. I am, wow, proud of you for.

[Matt]

Creating what you created out of your own imagination and out of your own creativity. And I will. I will tell you something. What you have and what you are, nobody can take away. Nobody can take away what you have and what you are. You did this, and I am so, so proud of you for it.

[Patricia]

Oh, my goodness. Thank you so much. That genuinely probably made my year. What a. What a highlight. I appreciate it so much. And you also have. Sorry, I just need to get my words back. You have. You're in Australia at the moment for some amazing live shows and a workshop in Sydney, I believe. Yeah, I'll make sure I leave tickets for that. But what cities are you visiting while you're. While you're down under?

[Matt]

I'm going to Sydney. Melbourne. Sorry, Sydney. Malms, Brizzy.

[Patricia]

Oh, she's a local. Oh, my goodness.

[Matt]

And Hobart, which is the one that I demanded to go to. I'm so sorry. Perth. Don't at me. I really, really, really wanted to come to Perth, but they didn't have a venue available that would have been the right size for what we needed, so I wasn't able to do it. But I have a fascination with Tasmania, and I also make it a point whenever I do these tours to try to go to places people don't nor go. And so if you're in ho. If you're in tazzy, come, because it's going to be great. And Adelaide as well, so. And Adelaide. And if anybody's listening to this in New Zealand, I'm going to Auckland as well. Not to say that I'm lumping you together with Australia, New Zealand. I fully recognize your. Your absolute, beautiful autonomy and separateness. But, well. Well, I'm in the neighborhood. I'm also going to Auckland, so please come. And if you've never. I feel like I'm on the tourism board for Tasmania right now. But if you've never been to Tasmania, like, I came there 10 years ago, and I'm obsessed with it. And I'm going back to the Museum of Sex and Death because it's the most incredible place, like, I've ever been to. I feel like it's the most wild thing I've ever seen a human create. Is that entire. Like, the whole city is beautiful. So come. There's still tickets left there. There's still tickets left in Adelaide. I think there's a few tickets left in Brizzy. But. But come and. Come and join us. It's going to be more like this.

[Patricia]

Yeah, yeah. Tidbit. I was literally in Hobart, like, four, three days ago because my best friend. Yeah. And I got her a ticket to your show, so hopefully she loves it. It's honestly magical. I saw a white. I saw an albino stag. I picked, like, fresh blackberries off of the trees, like, just, like, only a kilometer out of the city. It's beautiful. Go to Preachers, the bar. It's the best.

[Matt]

It. Okay. And thank you, sweetheart, for sharing me with your audience and. And everybody out there. Listen, it's. It's all going to be all right. Just. Just. Just relax. And just relax as you're being tormented and tossed about in wild seas.

[Patricia]

I feel like that summarizes it. Just surrender. So surrender was the theme of this episode, and I want to thank everyone for listening. If you've made it this far, what's our emoji for the. For the day? Let's choose the Earth. You can. If you've made it to this part of the show, drop an earth emoji in the comments so that we can talk and chat about your thoughts, feelings, maybe your questions, your qualms about this episode. Make sure that you're following along on Instagram at that psychology podcast. And until next time, stay safe, be kind, be gentle to yourself, and we will talk very, very soon.

[Emilia]

Do you want to see into the future? Do you want to understand an invisible force that's shaping your life? Do you want to experience the frontiers of what makes us human? On tech stuff, we travel from the mines of Congo to the surface of Mars, from conversations with Nobel prize winners to the depths of TikTok. To ask burning questions about technology, from high tech to low culture and. And everywhere in between. Join us. Listen to tech stuff on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

I'm Emil, host of the podcast Crumbs. For years, I had to rely on other people to tell me my story, and what I heard wasn't good. You really? Last night it felt like I lived most of my life in a blackout. I was trapped in addiction. I had to grab the lamp and smash the it against the walls. And then I decided I wanted to tell my own story. Listen to crumbs on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your.

[Joel]

Podcasts Joel, the holidays are a blast, but the financial hangover? That can be a huge bummer. If you are out there and you're dreading the new statement email that reveals the massive balance that you may have racked up, well, you could use our help.

[Matt]

That's right.

[Joel]

I'm Joel. And I am Matt and we're from the how to Money podcast. Our show is all about helping you make sense of your personal finances so you can ditch your pesky credit card debt once and for all, make real progress on other crucial financial goals that you've got, and just feel more in control of your money in general. You know it. For money advice without the judgment and jargon, listen to How To Money on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Jon Stewart]

Catch Jon Stewart back in action on the Daily show and in your ears with the Daily Show Ears Edition podcast. From his hilarious satirical takes on today's politics and entertainment to the unique voices of correspondents and contributors, it's your perfect companion to stay on top of what's happening now. Plus, you'll get special content just for podcast listeners like in depth interviews and a roundup of the weeks top headlines. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast.