← The Psychology of your 20s
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- [00:00]
Olga Hazan
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Colleen Witt
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Olga Hazan
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Colleen Witt
15% on your first purchase. Earn points towards special rewards and more@davidsbridal.com hello psychology of your 20s listeners. If you're like me, you love feeling confident and empowered in your own skin. Or maybe I should say your own hair. Madison Reed is the hair color company that's changing the game. Madison Reed believes that your hair color should reflect the real you. Bold, beautiful and unapologetically authentic. Whether you're touching up your roots, going for a really bold new look or enhancing your natural shade, Madison Reed Reed has got you covered with their salon quality, easy to use products. They offer a range of options to fit your needs, from vibrant permanent hair color to customizable demi permanent shades that add shine and dimension. Plus, they've got everything from root touch up kits to gloss treatments and more. And here's the best part. Their formulas are made with ingredients you can feel good about, free of harsh chemicals like ammonia and parabens, which I personally love. Plus, Madison Reed stands behind their products with a money back guarantee so you can try it out with complete confidence. So I've got to ask, what are we waiting for? Take the guesswork out of hair color and find the perfect shade today. Visit madison-reid.com psych20 that's madison-reid.com Psych20 hi friend.
- [01:53]
Olga Hazan
It's your inner child going and they want churros, a new toy and a new adventure. Or maybe five with the bestest besties on earth. Find your moment at Walt Disney World Resort. Are you hungry? Colleen Witt here. And Eating While Broke is back for season four every Thursday on the Black Effect Podcast Network. This season we've got a legendary lineup serving up broke dishes and even better stories. On the menu we have Tony Baker, Nick Cannon, Melissa Ford, October London and Carrie Harper Howe. Turning Big Macs into big moves.
- [02:43]
Colleen Witt
Catch Eating While Broke every Thursday on.
- [02:46]
Olga Hazan
The Black Effect podcast network.
- [02:48]
Colleen Witt
IHeartRadio app Apple podcast Wherever you get your favorite shows, come hungry for season four. Hello everybody. Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to the podcast. New listeners, old listeners, wherever you are in the world it is so great to have you here back for another episode. As we, of course, break down the psychology of our 20s today. Let's talk about destiny or something that feels strangely attached to it. Let's talk about personality, whether it's fixed or it can be changed, how it shapes our future, our beliefs, maybe even how happy we are. Personality is like a little bit of a black box. Like, we know it's shaped by nature and nurture. We know that genetics are involved. How we were raised is kind of involved. But I think as we get older, we become. Become more aware of the parts of ourselves that are holding us back and that, you know, we really would wish for something different. Well, today I have the honor of interviewing someone who has investigated that very possibility. What if we could be ourselves, but better by rewiring our personality? I want to welcome on author and journalist Olga Hazan. Thank you for joining us.
- [03:54]
Olga Hazan
Absolutely. Thanks for having me.
- [03:56]
Colleen Witt
I'm very, very excited for this episode and this topic in general. But before we kind of jump into it, can you briefly introduce yourself to the audience and your work?
- [04:06]
Olga Hazan
Sure. My name is Olga Hazan, and I'm a staff writer at the Atlantic magazine, and I'm also an author of books. This is my second book, and it is actually. It kind of stems from a cover story I did for the Atlantic a few years ago. So that's. That's my backstory.
- [04:26]
Colleen Witt
And you're not going to give us any spoilers? I feel like the, the COVID story, like, you go into it kind of in the book, right?
- [04:32]
Olga Hazan
Yeah, yeah, I can. Yeah, I can. I can. I can give you a spoiler. So the, the COVID story, I kind of experimented very lightly with changing my personality, but then I kind of realized that I needed to do more and that it, you know, kind of letting up on the experiment. I backtracked. I noticed that I. I was sort of falling back into old patterns. So the book is really an overview of the five traits of personality. My personal attempts to change on three of them. And because the other two, I actually don't need to change, they're fine. They're very high in me as it is. But I do interview other people who increased on those traits through various methods.
- [05:18]
Colleen Witt
We're going to get to that because I feel like it's such an interesting premise. But I do also want to talk about how you became a journalist, how you became a writer. I think as much as I love interviewing people about the very, you know, amazing niche things that they're doing and they're like whether it's psychology or neuroscience or anything like that, you know, this podcast is for people in their 20s and a lot of people probably aspire to do what you do. Can you kind of talk us through how you got from maybe graduating high school to where you are now?
- [05:49]
Olga Hazan
Sure, yeah. Wow, that's a long time ago.
- [05:55]
Colleen Witt
Review of your entire life, please and thank you.
- [05:57]
Olga Hazan
Graduated from high school like 20 years ago. Then I went to college. Did not major in journalism, but really found myself drawn to journalism. I did an internship in journalism and then I went to graduate school after I graduated from college, which is not like a necessary step for anyone listening at home, but it is something that I did. Then I got a job at the Washington Post out of graduate school and I worked there for brief time and then I moved to the Atlantic in 2013 and I've worked at the Atlantic ever since. And I've done a couple different jobs there, but I've mostly been a writer covering health and human behavior.
- [06:43]
Colleen Witt
Well, that's the perfect topic for this. Do you remember what your first big piece of writing was? Your first article where you were like, oh, my gosh, I'm a journalist.
- [06:54]
Olga Hazan
Yeah, that probably was. So when I did my internship in college, I wrote one story during that internship. It was complex why I only wrote one, but that was like the amount that I was allowed to write. And it was about online gaming addiction. And I remember when it came out, I felt so. Just accomplished. Like I was like, yes, like, my life is all coming together. And of course, like, I wouldn't be a full time writer for, I think, eight years after that. But it was, it was like very good motivation to keep going.
- [07:35]
Colleen Witt
You know, I love stories like that where it's like, okay, just because your dream isn't happening right now doesn't mean that it's not going to come true eventually. Like, as you said, you had this, like, what sounds like this big accomplished moment. And, you know, it really didn't come full circle until. What did you say, like, 10 years ago? Almost, maybe 12 years ago. Which, yeah, we love hearing those stories on the show. Let's talk about this book. The premise of this book was basically that cover story and this idea that you wanted to change your personality. Why did you feel like it was necessary? Like, why did you feel like you had to do that?
- [08:08]
Olga Hazan
Yeah, so your personality, you know, a lot of people think it's sort of like what you like or dislike or sort of the kinds of things you say or whatever, but it's really a lot about your reactions to situations and kind of like, something comes across your way. And are you like, yes, let's do it. Are you like, oh, I don't know about that, or, you know, it's kind of like how. How you interact with the world. And I noticed that a lot of how I was interacting with the world was not helping me, really. So the intro to the book kind of gives a good overview of this, but I had this day. This is before I had a kid. And it was like, now having had a kid, I'm like, wow, this was actually, like, a fantastic day. I should have just appreciated it. But, you know, it, like, I got stuck in traffic. I got a bad haircut. I got photos taken that looked really bad. I had a stressful thing where I had to, like, pick my mom up at the airport, but I had to go grocery shopping before. But the, like, there was, like, a delay at the grocery store, and then I was going to be late to pick up my mom, and it was like, this whole thing, and I just had a meltdown. I got back to my Airbnb that I was staying in, and I, like, drank wine and, like, cried to my boyfriend at the time and was just like, I hate everything. And then I kind of got to thinking, and I was like, even, like, me saying that now to you. I'm like, wow, that is so whiny and, like, unappreciative of the fact that, like, that day, you know, I was able to buy groceries. I was in Miami. Like, I got myself to Miami. I, you know, was getting a haircut, like, spa day for me. You know, I got professional photos taken, like, you know, and it was sort of like, I had this realization that, like, wow, I can take anything good and positive and maybe. Or maybe even just, like, mediocre, right? Like, a lot of things that happen in life are kind of like, oh, that was whatever, you know, And I have a tendency to dwell on the negatives and to, like, emphasize the negatives and create these stories out of the negatives that were not serving me. And it was making me, like, not enjoy my life. The, like, to the extent that I. That it could have and should have been enjoyed. And so that's kind of the long and the short of it, why I decided to change.
- [10:27]
Colleen Witt
That's actually really interesting. And can I be honest? Maybe I'm like, maybe I need to change my personality, because I had a day like that, like, literally yesterday.
- [10:35]
Olga Hazan
Okay, sorry.
- [10:36]
Colleen Witt
No, I literally even got my hair cut. And, like, I didn't like, my Haircut and like my mom was literally in town yesterday as well. And that's like, honestly crazy. So like you're, I'm like hearing that story and I'm like, no, like you, you just feel your emotions, girl.
- [10:51]
Olga Hazan
Like there's a time and a place to feel your, you can feel your emotions and also like, look at the bright side, you know?
- [10:59]
Colleen Witt
Yeah, no, it's just really funny. And I think like what you're really pointing at is like this wasn't like a one off situation. Like you had seen this pattern of not being able to enjoy your life. And what I'm hearing is that you were like, okay, well something needs to change in me. Why did you hone in on personality and like specific building blocks of personality rather than something else? Why didn't you like speak spiritual enlightenment? Why didn't you like say to yourself, oh, I need to change something about my lifestyle? Like did you feel. Yeah. What was like the focus on changing what I'm guessing is like neuroticism, right? Like as a building block.
- [11:38]
Olga Hazan
Yeah. So neuroticism was one of the things I wanted to change. So neuroticism is one of the five traits and it's just anxiety and depression. Right. And I had a lot of that. I had a lot of anxiety and a lot of kind of negativity as I mentioned. But there are other elements of personality and they sort of encompass those other things that you mentioned. So actually as far as like improving my neuroticism, a big thing I actually looked to was Buddhism and a lot of Buddhist teachings. Because a lot of neuroticism, it's not about like reducing the number of things that happen to you that are bad. It's, I mean, although, like, if you're like addicted to drugs and like that's why bad things keep happening to you, like that's something to look to. But let's say you're like a, like a functional person who's, who's you know, living like a basically normal life. It's going to be a lot easier to change your reactions to the things that happen to you than it is to like make every single thing in the world go your way. So that's why I kind of like looked inward and, and, and personality does encompass a lot of those things that you mentioned. So like spirituality, Buddhism has a lot to say about depression and anxiety and you know, as far as like lifestyle, that was really more extroversion. Like I, I wanted to become more extroverted and that was a big part lifestyle Was a big part of that is, is sort of how often do you go out to socialize and do you make an effort to do that? You know, not just like, do you sit, sit by the phone and wait for people to contact you, but do you make connections? Do you try to get out there? So those, those are things that I did, but I called it personality change, because personality includes all that.
- [13:23]
Colleen Witt
Okay, that makes, that makes a lot more sense. So in this, like, endeavor to change your personality, did you figure out, like, who the happiest kinds of people were? Like, was there an assumption that, like, the happiest kinds of people are extroverted and are low in neuroticism and, like, high in openness to experiences? Like, thinking about, like, the big five. What did you come across in your research?
- [13:49]
Olga Hazan
Yeah, so people are not going to be thrilled to hear this, but the happiest people are like, high in all the traits except for neuroticism. So, so there's five traits. I will just briefly say what they are. It's so openness to experience. Happy people are high in that because that's like, yeah, spiritual, but not religious, like, creative, imaginative, conscientiousness, which is like getting stuff done. So it's like being places on time and being like, healthy and exercising. Happy people tend to be high in that extroversion. Extroverts are happier. That's like a really consistent finding in psychology. Unfortunately, I, I was, I'm an introvert and I was not thrilled to hear that agreeableness, agreeable people are, are happier. They're always like, making friends and going to baby showers and what have you. And then neuroticism is the one that's correlated with unhappiness. And so the opposite of it is emotional stability. That's what it's called. And people who are high in that are happier.
- [14:56]
Colleen Witt
Kind of rough, not going to lie.
- [14:58]
Olga Hazan
Yeah.
- [15:01]
Colleen Witt
I'm an introvert and I have anxiety. I think, like, maybe caveat, like, I'll put the caveat in. Like, sometimes I think that it's like, are introverts less happy? Or the scales by which we measure happiness just obviously overly influenced by extroverts. Right. Because who's going to participate in those early studies that created indicators of happiness? It's going to be the people who have a lot of friends who are going to invite them to participate and who are like, yeah, I'll do this. I'll go out. I'll get paid to sit in a room with a stranger for an hour. So sometimes I think that. And I also do think that what we'll get to is even if you don't think you can change your personality, you can most certainly manage it. And you can manage, like, medications and you can manage lifestyle factors and routine and therapists. So don't see this as like a curse upon your name if you kind of associate with some of those other traits. But this kind of leads me to my next question. Like, at what age do you think our personality really starts to stick? At what age do you think we really feel, like, stuck in who we are?
- [16:09]
Olga Hazan
Yeah. So I would say there's not an age at which we. We start to stick in who we are. So that used to be the thinking. This, like, influential psychologist named William James had this infamous sort of quote that, like, the character is set like plaster by the age of 30 and which is relevant for your podcast for people in their 20s. So I mean, even he said, like, in your 20s, you can still change. But, but, but kind of more recent research has found that that's not really true, that people kind of continue to change throughout their lives, even naturally. Even if you don't really do anything to try to change, your personality is gonna kind of shift from decade to decade. You're gonna be a different person, you know, when you have kids and, like, a job than you were in college, than you were in high school, you know, and that is, like, freeing. And it's kind of scary, but it's also kind of nice that, like, like, you're not gonna be, like, if you're not crazy about something, you know, about yourself or about your life, you're not stuck with it forever.
- [17:14]
Colleen Witt
That is very, very freeing. And even, like, as we get into, like, older age as well, something that I, like, a statistic that I really like to talk about is how by the time people reach, like, 60 and 70, symptoms of mental illness really decline, which I don't. I don't know. I've always, like, thought about that and been like, ah, that sounds great.
- [17:36]
Olga Hazan
Like, can't wait.
- [17:37]
Colleen Witt
Yeah, can't wait for that. Like, Maybe I'll have 10 years of just, like, bliss. But it is like, a really beautiful thing that you mentioned this. I hear this a lot, like another myth about personality change. Slash, personality stuckness is by the time you reach 25, your frontal lobe is fully developed. And I think we kind of think, like, okay, so, like, that's it. Like, this is who I'm always going to be. What evidence did you find, like, on the contrary, before I like, really dive into Your personal experiment.
- [18:06]
Olga Hazan
Yeah, so. So there's two kind of branches of evidence to the contrary. So first, your frontal lobe being fully formed doesn't really mean anything about your personality because we don't have, like, a lobe in our brain that is where the personality lives. So, like, even if they study, like, brain changes or. Or, you know, like those, like, FMRI studies where it's like, brains lighting up, those don't necessarily correlate perfectly with personality. Necessarily. So there's kind of two elements to this. The first is that when researchers have followed people, you know, and given them personality tests over and over across the years, they do find that people change. You know, they tend to change in certain ways over time. So, like you mentioned that people become kind of mentally healthier in old age. Neuroticism does go down naturally across your life. So if you feel like you're very anxious and depressed, usually in older age, people become less so. So that sort of just naturally happens. You don't have to do anything. You don't have to, like, take any Lexapro. That naturally happens for most people. The other element of this is that if you actually try to change, it can happen even faster. So there's been studies that show that people who get therapy, for example, become less neurotic. And in a short period of time, they become a lot less neurotic than you would expect them to, having just, like, naturally, you know, decline in neuroticism. And the same with some of the studies that I cover with my. In my book. Researchers who have given people these, like, challenges. You know, people will say, I'd really like to become more extroverted. I'd like to make more friends. And they're like, okay, every day for. Or whatever, every week for a month, reach out to someone new and have coffee with them or have, you know, lunch with them or whatever. And they do maybe, like, five to 10 challenges like that over a period of time, they actually find that they do grow in extroversion based on personality tests that they take at the beginning and the end. So not only do you naturally change, you can also change through effort.
- [20:32]
Colleen Witt
So things like introversion, I always thought that they were very innate. Like, it's a genetic. I don't know, like, genetic predisposition. It's temperament. But you're saying that actually. No, it's more of a nurture factor. Nurture being like, environment. Sorry.
- [20:46]
Olga Hazan
Yeah, it's both. So genetics is responsible for about 40 to 60% of our personality. And even then, it's not like, direct like, if you think about either of your parents, you're probably not exactly like either of them, right? You're probably like, you have like elements of them, but you're not like their twin. Like you, you kind of. Most people are. I mean, usually people are relieved to hear this. Like, not exactly like either, either. Either parent, right? So you get a little bit like, you get some ingredients. So I have like a natural proclivity toward anxiety because both my parents are very anxious, right? But at the same time, there's other. There's like this, you know, 40 to 60 other percent of personality that we don't really know where specifically it comes from. It's not necessarily like the way your parents raised you. It's like, it's like kind of that. But it's also like your friends. It's like, did you go to college? What kind of job do you have? You know, do you make an effort to like read self help books? It's kind of like the stuff that you do and absorb into yourself that creates that other part of personality. So that's the kind of element that I'm talking about is that like, yeah, if you have two parents who are totally bookish and hate talking to people, you're gonna naturally be kind of like, I feel really introverted. But if, but if you, you know, go into a job in sales and you talk to people, you know, all day and everyone around you is extroverted and you get like high fives and promotions for being extroverted, like, you're gonna be a little bit more extroverted than you naturally would be, if that makes sense.
- [22:26]
Colleen Witt
So it's kind of like at some point reinforcement does kind of work.
- [22:30]
Olga Hazan
Like, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
- [22:32]
Colleen Witt
Rewarded. See, I find this really interesting because like, my parents are so totally opposite each other. Like, they are the perfect definition of like, opposites attract. Like, my dad is like a stay at home dad and like we call him like a charity wife. Like, he runs like a non for profit, like giving bags to refugee children in Australia. And like, then my mom is like a like badass, like CEO. Like she has like, she is Olga. Like she is the lowest person, like the lowest neurotic neuroticism levels I have ever seen in an individual. Like, I have never seen that woman break a sweat. She is not anxious at all. Like, nothing phases her. And then my dad is like the complete opposite. And it's like completely like, he's not completely anxious, but he's very anxious and very existential and very like in his own head. About very deep things. And it's really funny, like, seeing it. Like, me and my sisters always joke that it was like, you know, one of us got my mum's genes and my, me and my other sister got my dad's genes and it was like, damn, like, if I could switch, like, I totally would. So it's fun.
- [23:41]
Olga Hazan
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [23:42]
Colleen Witt
But then again, it's like me and my sister, like, not to like, tell her story, but had had very different approaches to like, how he faced neuroticism and like, and other things as well and like, agreeableness and all those things. And like, there definitely has been a difference in like, how we've approached it and how we've changed as people. So I'm ranting, really what I want to get to is what you found in yourself. But we're going to take a tiny break and we'll be back in just a second. Stay tuned. Hello, psychology of your 20s listeners. If you're like me, you love feeling confident and empowered in your own skin. Or maybe I should say your own hair. Madison Reed is the hair color company that's changing the game. Madison Reed believes that your hair color should reflect the real you. Bold, beautiful and unapologetically authentic. Whether you're touching up your roots, going for a really bold new look, or enhancing your natural shade, Madison Reed has got you covered with their salon quality, easy to use products. They offer a range of options to fit your needs, from vibrant permanent hair color to customizable demi permanent shades that add shine and dimension. Plus, they've got everything from root touch up kits to gloss treatments and more. And here's the best part. Their formulas are made with ingredients you can feel good about, free of harsh chemicals like ammonia and parabens, which I personally love. Plus, Madison Reed stands behind their products with a money back guarantee so you can try it out with complete confidence. So I've got to ask, what are we waiting for? Take the guesswork out of hair color and find the perfect shade today. Visit madison-reid.com psych20 that's madison-re.com psych20 I started to live a double life when I was a teenager. Responsible and driven and wild and out of control. My head is pounding. I'm confused. I don't know why I'm in jail. It's hard to understand what hope is when you're trapped in a cycle of addiction. Addiction took me to the darkest places. I had an AK47 pointed at my head. But one night, a new door opened and I made it into the rooms of recovery. The path would have roadblocks and detours, stalls and relapses. But when I was feeling the most lost, I found hope with community and I made my way back. This season. Join me on my journey through addiction and recovery. A story told in 12 steps. Listen to Crumbs as part of the Michael Lura Podcast Network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [26:34]
Olga Hazan
Hi, I'm Bob Pittman, chairman and CEO of iHeartMedia. I'm excited to share my podcast with you. Math and stories from the frontiers of Marketing. This week I'm talking to the CEO of Moderna, Stephane Bonsell, about how he led his team through unprecedented times to create, test and distribute a COVID vaccine, all in less than a year. It becomes a human decision to decide to throw by the window your business strategy and to do what you think is the right thing for the world. Join me as we uncover innovations in data and analytics, the math and the ever important creative spark, the magic. Listen to math and magic stories from the frontiers of Marketing on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Why would you do that to me when I thought we were friends?
- [27:23]
Colleen Witt
We are friends.
- [27:25]
Olga Hazan
Los Angeles, 2021. A friendly neighbor appears out of nowhere and promises to make all my dreams come true.
- [27:33]
Colleen Witt
Let's not forget that David Blume was a professional con artist. So you didn't stand a chance.
- [27:39]
Olga Hazan
But my dreams soon turned into a nightmare. Bloom generally targeted people with money, and I was not alone. He took over 100 people for over $50 million.
- [27:51]
Colleen Witt
One of the victims was his own grandmother.
- [27:53]
Olga Hazan
I was married to David for almost 10 years. It was insane. I was barely functioning. And I just had this realization that he will not stop until he kills me. Getting a con artist to pay for their crimes isn't easy. Charge David blue, I'm Caroline D'Amore. Listen, as I take down my scammer on Once Upon a con, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [28:20]
Colleen Witt
We are back with Olga Hazan talking about can we change our personality? This is kind of the crux of this whole interview. What happened? Firstly, what did you do? And secondly, what did you find?
- [28:34]
Olga Hazan
Yeah, so that's like the whole book. So let me just break it down into. Let's talk about extroversion first, because I think that is like the easiest to wrap your head around and also has had the clearest results.
- [28:47]
Colleen Witt
Okay, cool.
- [28:49]
Olga Hazan
So extroversion, basically the Secret to increasing extroversion is to socialize with people. Some of the other traits are more existential and more, like, mindset oriented and kind of like how you think about things. Extroversion is, like, very clear cut. Go talk to people. Like, go do activities. So I signed up for a bunch of stuff. I signed up for improv sailing club, a bunch of meetup groups. So which is like groups of strangers meeting up. Literally. I, like, threw a party at my house. I just went out all the time. I went from basically going out maybe once a week to going out like, pretty much every night. Or like, not. And not like, going out drinking. Like, although there was a lot of drinking, I can imagine, like, like just. Just being around people. And I found that, like, almost every time before I went, I dreaded it. I did not want to go. I was like, I hate improv. I don't even know why I'm doing this. This is stupid. Like, I don't want to go. And then almost every time after I would do it, I felt better. I was like, that was super fun. Or like, that person in the sailing my sailboat today was really interesting. Or like, that was cool. Or like, hey, I got to get whatever, a burger on the way back home. Like, there was something that came out of it usually that I was like, huh, that was like, a nice break from the day. That was like, a nice way to, like, liven up the day a little bit. And I think that's kind of like the. When I talk about increasing extroversion or, like, changing your introversion, you can remain an introvert, but just do, like, 20% more stuff. Like, connect with people 20% more. And there's a little bit of a mood boost there. Like, researchers who are introverts have studied this concept and have found that, like, even just connecting with people a little bit, and it doesn't mean that you have to be, like, the life of the party. Like, I think people assume extroversion means, like, you're super talkative and, like, can't shut up and, you know, or you're always telling jokes. You can, like, go hang out with two close friends and, like, you know, listen more than you talk and, like, knit the whole time. And that's still extroversion. That's, you know, still being around people. So, yeah, I. For that one, I might introvert. My extroversion did go up. And I think what I took away from that is that, like, I do enjoy having fun. I need to sometimes force myself to have fun. But it's okay to do that. Like, it's okay to be, like, commit, you know, kind of to an exercise class or to something else that doesn't sound super appealing all the time, but ends up being rewarding.
- [31:42]
Colleen Witt
This is what I always say. People will DM me, be like, how do I make new friends? Or how do I stop feeling? Everything is an effort, And I'm like, pick two things to do a week and do them in the same place at the same time. And you will meet other people who are doing the same thing as you, whether it isn't an exercise class or an improv class or a life drawing class or social sport. But there are so many people out there who also want to make friends and who also are, like, seeking connection. And there's, like, no shame about it either, of being like, okay, I'm trying to train my brain to like this more because you do fall into a habit. Like, I'm such an extroverted person. And last week I spent the entire day at my house and, like, the entire week, like, indoors working, and I had such cabin fever. And I was like, I've just. I'm just so depressed. Like, I just don't know who I am anymore. And then I went and did, like, barefoot bowls with my friends, and I was like, wow, life is so beautiful. Look at those flowers. It's like giving your brain what it needs. So extraversion was the one that you saw an improvement in? What about neuroticism?
- [32:48]
Olga Hazan
Yeah, so neuroticism. I also saw an improvement. So neuroticism. I will cut to the chase. I meditated a whole lot, and meditation is also something that I did not enjoy. I didn't even enjoy it while I was doing it, and I did not enjoy it after I was done. I was not like, that was really nice.
- [33:04]
Colleen Witt
That sounds painful.
- [33:05]
Olga Hazan
Thank God I don't have to do that for another 24 hours. I signed up for a class where we had to meditate for 45 minutes every day, which is so long. It's literally the longest 45 minutes of your life. However, it did work. My neuroticism went down, and my anxiety went down a little bit, but my depression went down a ton. It went down a lot, like, to basically, like, not being depressed anymore. And why that happened is sort of anyone's guess. If I had to, like, posit why that occurred, it's that I did a lot of what's called loving kindness meditation, which is where you're just, like, really nice to yourself for however long, and it's Usually I do it to, like, a guided. Like a tape, basically. People don't use tape anymore. Like a recording. Like a guided. Like. Yeah, exactly. Exactly, like a guided recording. And it's like, you know, like. Like, there's like, the line that always makes me cry is like, there's. You can search the whole universe for someone who is more deserving of love and happiness than you are yourself and not find anyone. And it's like. Like, yeah, you're just like, oh, my.
- [34:22]
Colleen Witt
God, this tape is so.
- [34:25]
Olga Hazan
It's. It's Sharon Salzberg, and I use the 10Happier app for meditation.
- [34:33]
Colleen Witt
Oh, I love that app.
- [34:34]
Olga Hazan
Yeah.
- [34:35]
Colleen Witt
Yeah, I have a podcast up from the Yale. Is it from the Yale person?
- [34:42]
Olga Hazan
No, I think you're thinking of Jud Brewer. The. The ten Happier is Dan Harris.
- [34:48]
Colleen Witt
Oh, yeah, Dan Harris. Yes, yes, yes. He does a podcast as well, I think.
- [34:51]
Olga Hazan
Yes. Yeah, I mean, everyone.
- [34:53]
Colleen Witt
Yeah, everyone has a podcast. It's so embarrassing.
- [34:58]
Olga Hazan
But. But he. Yeah, but it. It actually, like, really worked. I think, like, there's something about, like, repeating that. I don't know. And my meditation teacher also really tried to, like, hammer home the self compassion, and I think it. It worked. Yeah.
- [35:13]
Colleen Witt
Wow. See, I get this, like, meditation. I. I've never met someone who's been like, I'm really into it all the time. Like. Like, I do feel like you kind of have to drag yourself into it kicking and screaming. It's like when you have to, like, get a needle and you're like, I really don't want to do this, or, like, go to the dentist or, like, go to the doctor, and then you feel amazing, like, oh, wow, that pain's gone. Like, that's what meditation sounds like. And it's just like, discipline towards your soul. Right? The same way exercise your body like you're exercising your mind. Even if it's, like, tense and uncomfortable and stressful or whatever in the moment, like, it feels gives you strength later on.
- [35:52]
Olga Hazan
I think it. What it did is made me less afraid of my negative emotions. So you're sitting there, like, sometimes for hours, and you're just like, your mind is, like, going and going in its silence, you know? And I think what it does is, like, for me, at least. I don't know if this is, like, correct, but for me, at least it made me, like, inevitably, like, negative feelings will come up during that. But it was sort of just like, it's okay. Like, nothing bad is really happening right now. You're literally sitting in a room in your house on a cushion, like, meditating but you. You kind of have. You still have your same negative, you know, strong emotions if you're someone who's prone to neuroticism. But it. I don't know, it just lets you, like, kind of not be as thrown off by them or, like, because bad things are still. I mean, my meditation teacher would say this all the time. Like, things happen that you don't like, which is, like, very simple, but it's like, oh, yeah. And, like, you're just. You're gonna have to deal with that for the rest of your life. And it's all about, you know. Do you. You know, your mom, you mentioned is, like, so not neurotic. I'm sure bad things happen to her, but she thinks about them in a, like, somehow more Zen way than the average person. I'd love to know her secret.
- [37:11]
Colleen Witt
I would love to as well. It's crazy. And she's had a tough life, like, not to give her story. And I have done an episode with her where she talks about it, but not even the full extent. Like, not an easy life. And sometimes I just look at her and I can see, like, there'll be a time that, like, me or my. My sister will, like, be panicking about something or being like, don't you just see, like, how terrible this is? And I. I can literally just see her looking at me being like, no, like, trying really hard to have empathy for me and being like, I just can't do it. Like, she. She's incredible. And, like, I. She has obviously, like, learned what to say, but she doesn't, like, feel it in her bones the way that, like, my dad would or my sister would. So she honestly needs to do, like, some kind of life course. Like, she's pretty incredible. Okay, I want to ask this question that I think everyone is probably thinking at this point. You did all these amazing exercises. How long did this last as well? Like, six months.
- [38:11]
Olga Hazan
This lasted a year.
- [38:13]
Colleen Witt
Okay, a year. And when did that experiment end?
- [38:18]
Olga Hazan
I honestly only had a year of book leave, so it was just like, June of 2022 to June of 2023.
- [38:26]
Colleen Witt
Okay, cool. So, like, a year. A solid year. Have you found that you've gone back to your old self since?
- [38:35]
Olga Hazan
So in some ways, but not in others, since I did that I had a baby. And that necessarily, like, changes a lot about how you're thinking about things, especially in the beginning. But I would say that there are still a lot of things that I carried through into even my life as a. I guess I'm still a New parent technically. So one example is like just reaching out to other moms. So it's a very stressful time when you first have a baby. Like, it just is. There's no getting around it. You don't know what you're doing and they're very tiny and they cannot speak to you. And so you're just like, what do you want? So I kind of made a point of reaching out to other moms. And like, I'm in a mom's group that's been really supportive. I also just like really, really try to, even in. In day to day life, if I meet another mom with kids, the same, really try to like reach out and at least see if she's open to the possibility of friendship. And sometimes that means that I. And this is not something I would have done previously. I actually do a lot of reaching out repeatedly. So like, if someone, let's say I reach out to someone and they're like, yeah, let's have coffee and we have coffee and we both have a good time, I. And then some time elapses and no one follows up, I might reach out again, even though it was me the last time too. And then I might do that like a third time. Like, there are some relationships where I'm just always the person who organizes things. And that used to really bother me. Like, I was like, that person doesn't want to be friends. Like, I'm gonna move on because they're not putting in equal effort into organizing things. And like, I don't, I don't want that. But I kind of just realized through this that like, everyone has stuff going on and like, people just don't think about things the same way. They are maybe swamped in other ways. They're maybe like, not as comfortable with reaching out. Like, I don't know, it just made me like a lot less sensitive, I guess, about these like, rules of social interaction that I had previously thought were like iron like laws, you know. So that's been one thing that I've noticed. Like yesterday we went on a playdate to this woman who I like barely knew just because I was like, I'm really bored. And if I have to like, like sing Baby Beluga one more time and then I lose my mind. So it's like, let's go over to Yu Chen's house. And yeah, that's what we did and it was great, you know, So I.
- [41:11]
Colleen Witt
Don'T know, I think it's like a really interesting, like, how you can. It's quite personal, but like Whether you would have been a different kind of mother if you hadn't done this experiment, like, the year before you had a baby. And, like, maybe the answer is no, but maybe it's like, wow. Like, in this weird way, like, maybe you were preparing your personality for, like, literally the biggest challenge on planet Earth. Like, I heard this quote. It's like, when you become a parent, you have to use every single skill that you've ever put on a resume. Like, and the ones that you haven't. So it'd be interesting to see that. Not that you wouldn't have been a very competent, capable mother if you hadn't have done this, but it's. Yeah, it's fascinating. Like, I would have loved to see a control group.
- [41:54]
Olga Hazan
I know I'm not very competent or capable as it is, but I will say that I think that doing this experiment helped me decide to have a baby.
- [42:05]
Colleen Witt
Oh, okay, cool. Interesting.
- [42:07]
Olga Hazan
Like, it helped me get more comfortable with the idea of having a baby. Yeah.
- [42:12]
Colleen Witt
Because babies, listen, I don't have one, but they seem like a lot of work, and they seem like they will put you in, like, a state. Like, they will bring up all those challenges. So, you know, the other day, this is, like, so funny, but I didn't realize you can't give babies water.
- [42:29]
Olga Hazan
Not until six months.
- [42:31]
Colleen Witt
See, guys, I don't know if any of you did know that, listeners of the podcast, but I was like, wow, if I had a kid right now and no one had told me that, like, that would have been a real problem. Like, what are the other things that I don't know about this? Like, grand.
- [42:44]
Olga Hazan
You end up. You end up Googling. Don't worry about that stuff. Don't. Don't worry about it right now. It's honestly, you will. You'll be Googling. You will Google. The Internet has answers. You Google everything. No one knows any of this stuff before they start.
- [42:57]
Colleen Witt
There we go, guys. And I think it will be a long time. But, um, I've got one final question for you, and I ask every single guest on the podcast this same question. What advice would you have for listeners in their 20s? Like, what's one thing that you'd wish you'd known earlier? And it doesn't have to be about what we talked about today.
- [43:16]
Olga Hazan
I would say that my advice for people in their 20s is that it's okay to just pursue what you want. You don't have to do something that seems practical or, like, what other people want you to do or just because you've always been Doing it, you can. It's a time of life when you can completely pick the thing that is your biggest goal, the thing you most want in the world, and just go at it with full force. That's what I would, I would recommend doing.
- [43:52]
Colleen Witt
I also love that. I love that piece of advice. I would give that advice myself.
- [43:57]
Olga Hazan
Oh, good.
- [43:58]
Colleen Witt
Which is brilliant. Which is so brilliant. I want to thank you for coming on the podcast. Where can the listeners find you? Actually, I want to give a shout out to an article that you wrote that I think is really, would be really amazing. It's called the Joy of Underperforming. I think you wrote it like a couple of years ago maybe. But if you guys are looking for further listening, for further reading, I'm sorry, Olga, I'm going to not even let you give your own recommendations. I will in a second. But I remember reading that article that you wrote and being like, wow, this is incredible for people in their 20s, but it's great. But where else can, can they find you?
- [44:32]
Olga Hazan
Yeah, so our website is theatlantic.com and I'm a writer there. You can find me and all my brilliant colleagues there. And you can find my book, which is called Me But Better wherever books are sold.
- [44:45]
Colleen Witt
I'm very excited for it to come out comes out today. If you're listening to this, the day that it launched, this is released, you can literally go and pre order a copy. And I know we had quite a few spoilers, but having already read a few chapters slash pages of this book, like there is so much more there and so much more science and research and just like fascinating tidbits. So thank you so much, Olga for coming on the show. And as always, if there is someone that you know who would like to listen to this episode who you think would be interested in this topic, feel free to send them a link. Make sure that you are following along. If you want to rate us 5 stars, that would be very much appreciated. Until next time, thank you for listening and stay kind. Be safe, be gentle to yourself. We will talk very, very soon.
- [45:33]
Olga Hazan
Are you hungry? Colleen Whitt here and Eating While Broke.
- [45:37]
Colleen Witt
Is back for season four.
- [45:38]
Olga Hazan
Every Thursday on the Black Effect Podcast Network.
- [45:42]
Colleen Witt
This season we've got legendary lineup serving.
- [45:44]
Olga Hazan
Up broke dishes and even better stories on the menu. We have Tony Baker, Nick Cannon, Melissa Ford, October London and Carrie Harper Howe. Turning Big Macs into big moves.
- [45:55]
Colleen Witt
Catch Eating While Broke every Thursday on.
- [45:57]
Olga Hazan
The Black Effect Podcast Network.
- [45:59]
Colleen Witt
IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts. Wherever you get your favorite shows, come hungry for season four.
- [46:06]
Olga Hazan
Dressing Blessing. Oh, French dressing.
- [46:10]
Colleen Witt
Exactly.
- [46:11]
Olga Hazan
Oh, that's good.
- [46:12]
Colleen Witt
I'm A.J.
- [46:13]
Olga Hazan
Jacobs and and my current obsession is puzzles. And that has given birth to my podcast, the Puzzler.
- [46:20]
Colleen Witt
Something about Mary Poppins? Exactly. This is fun.
- [46:24]
Olga Hazan
You can get your daily puzzle nuggets delivered straight to your ears. Listen to the Puzzler every day on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever.
- [46:34]
Colleen Witt
You get your podcasts.
- [46:36]
Olga Hazan
My name is Brendan Patrick Hughes, host of Divine Intervention. This is a story about radical nuns in combat boots and wild haired priests trading blows with J. Edgar Hoover in a hell bent effort to sabotage a war.
- [46:50]
Colleen Witt
J. Edgar Hoover was furious.
- [46:53]
Olga Hazan
He was out of his mind and he wanted to bring the Catholic left to its knees. Listen to Divine intervention on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [47:06]
Colleen Witt
Hey y'all, it's your girl, Cheekies. And I'm back with a brand new season of your favorite podcast, Cheekies and Chills. I'll be sharing even more personal stories.
- [47:15]
Olga Hazan
With you guys and as always, you'll.
- [47:17]
Colleen Witt
Get my exclusive take on topics like love, personal growth, health, family ties and more. And don't forget, I'll also be dishing out my best advice to you on episodes of Dear Cheekies.
- [47:27]
Olga Hazan
It's going to be an exciting year.
- [47:29]
Colleen Witt
And I hope that you can join me. Listen to Cheekies and chill season four on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts.