285. Overcoming relationship OCD & anxiety

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Psychology of Your 20s - Episode 285: Overcoming Relationship OCD & Anxiety

Host: Jemma Sbeg
Guest: Rebecca Orr, Relationship Coach
Release Date: March 21, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 285 of "The Psychology of Your 20s," host Jemma Sbeg delves into the intricate challenges of Relationship Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder (ROCD) and anxiety within the context of young adult relationships. Joined by Rebecca Orr, a seasoned relationship coach with personal experience in overcoming relationship fears, the episode offers profound insights into managing doubts and building secure, confident relationships.

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Defining Relationship OCD (ROCD)

Rebecca Orr begins by clarifying what ROCD entails:

Rebecca Orr [07:09]: "ROCD is where people have obsessive-compulsive thinking in their intimate relationships. It involves intrusive thoughts of doubt and anxiety surrounding relationships, making the level of doubt uncontrollable and distressing."

She explains that ROCD is characterized by incessant questioning of the relationship’s validity, excessive comparison to others, and attempts to control or micromanage the partner to alleviate anxiety.

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The Impact of ROCD on Relationships

Jemma Sbeg highlights the paradox of ROCD, where the very analytics and doubts intended to secure the relationship can undermine its foundation:

Jemma Sbeg [09:38]: "Especially in our 20s, we want our relationships to be the right ones because this is the time for exploring and investing emotionally. But ROCD can lead to self-sabotage, preventing us from fully enjoying otherwise perfect relationships."

Rebecca adds that ROCD often leads to regret over past relationships, fostering a scarcity mentality where individuals believe there is only one perfect partner:

Rebecca Orr [12:56]: "There's this idea that there's one right person for me, a needle in the haystack. If I miss them, it means I've missed my chance, but in reality, there are billions of imperfect humans we can create amazing relationships with."

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Root Causes and Influences of ROCD

Rebecca explores the origins of ROCD, emphasizing the role of childhood experiences and social conditioning:

Rebecca Orr [13:52]: "Childhood experiences, such as witnessing problematic relationships or experiencing painful divorces, can imprint beliefs that relationships are scary and destined to fail. Additionally, societal messages from Disney movies and rom-coms set unrealistic expectations for relationships."

She notes that these ingrained beliefs shape how individuals perceive and interact within their relationships, often leading to heightened anxiety and suspicion.

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Social Conditioning and Its Effects

The discussion delves deeper into how media and societal expectations distort relationship realities:

Rebecca Orr [17:58]: "We've absorbed messages that romantic relationships will save us, especially as women. This belief pressures us to view our partners as reflections of our worth, making us fear being single or in flawed relationships."

Jemma echoes this sentiment, pointing out the unrealistic portrayal of relationships in media and social platforms:

Jemma Sbeg [22:56]: "Pop culture references, like Taylor Swift’s 'Prophecy,' illustrate the pervasive fear that relationships are predestined to fail, reinforcing the anxiety around making the wrong choices."

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Coping Strategies and Techniques to Manage ROCD

Rebecca offers practical strategies for managing ROCD, focusing on self-soothing and altering one's relationship with intrusive thoughts:

Rebecca Orr [26:44]: "Start by self-soothing when triggered. Ground yourself in the present, observe your thoughts without judgment, and differentiate between facts and the stories your brain tells you."

She introduces the concept of the "50/50" emotional balance, emphasizing that all relationships will naturally involve a mix of positive and negative emotions:

Rebecca Orr [24:04]: "Life, including relationships, is inherently a 50/50 mix of positive and negative emotions. Understanding this balance can reduce the pressure to achieve perpetual happiness."

Jemma adds that distinguishing between anxiety and intuition is crucial:

Jemma Sbeg [31:28]: "Anxiety demands immediate answers and solutions, whereas intuition allows for thoughtful, paced decision-making."

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Listener Questions and Expert Answers

The episode features a segment where Rebecca addresses listener questions, offering tailored advice on various ROCD-related dilemmas.

1. Communicating in Relationships (Emma's Question) [44:09]:

Emma asks whether she should break up with a partner due to constant communication issues despite being in love.

Rebecca Orr [44:09]: "Before making a decision, engage in self-reflection. Examine your thoughts and behaviors during conflicts and consider whether there are patterns you can adjust. It’s also essential to understand your partner’s perspective and communicate openly about recurring issues."

2. ROCD and Anxious Attachment (Sean's Question) [47:31]:

Sean inquires about the correlation between ROCD and an anxious attachment style.

Rebecca Orr [47:31]: "There is a definite correlation. Anxious attachment can make individuals more prone to seeing relationships as either safe or dangerous, mirroring ROCD’s obsessive focus on relationship stability."

3. Managing Persistent Doubts [49:04]:

A listener shares struggles with persistent thoughts of breaking up despite loving their partner.

Rebecca Orr [49:38]: "If contemplating a break, consider whether it’s a genuine need or an attempt to escape anxious thoughts. Instead of leaving, work on changing your relationship with these thoughts through techniques like mindfulness and cognitive restructuring."

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Conclusion and Final Advice

As the episode wraps up, Rebecca offers a heartfelt piece of advice for those navigating their 20s:

Rebecca Orr [52:35]: "Go easy on yourself. Lighten up, practice self-compassion, and remember that life is meant to be enjoyed. Building a supportive relationship with yourself empowers you to handle whatever comes your way."

Jemma concurs, emphasizing the importance of self-kindness and resilience:

Jemma Sbeg [54:22]: "Be gentle with yourself. In the theme of today’s episode, remember to be kind and compassionate towards your own journey."

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Key Takeaways

• Understanding ROCD: It's an obsessive-compulsive condition that leads to excessive doubts and anxiety in relationships.
• Impact and Patterns: ROCD can result in self-sabotage, fear of committing, and maintaining a scarcity mindset about potential partners.
• Root Causes: Influenced by childhood experiences, societal conditioning, and personal anxieties.
• Coping Strategies: Include self-soothing, grounding techniques, separating facts from intrusive thoughts, and embracing the natural emotional balance in relationships.
• Self-Compassion: Developing a compassionate relationship with oneself is crucial for overcoming ROCD and fostering healthy relationships.

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Notable Quotes:

• Rebecca Orr [07:09]: "ROCD involves intrusive thoughts of doubt and anxiety surrounding relationships, making the level of doubt uncontrollable and distressing."
• Rebecca Orr [12:56]: "There are billions of imperfect humans we can create amazing relationships with."
• Jemma Sbeg [22:56]: "If I knew that happiness was just one emotion among 34,000, it reminds me that relationships are multifaceted and not meant to be perfect always."
• Rebecca Orr [26:44]: "Start by self-soothing when triggered. Ground yourself in the present, observe your thoughts without judgment."
• Rebecca Orr [52:35]: "Go easy on yourself. Lighten up, practice self-compassion, and remember that life is meant to be enjoyed."

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This episode provides invaluable insights into the psychological challenges faced in one's 20s, particularly concerning romantic relationships. Rebecca Orr’s expert guidance equips listeners with practical tools to recognize, understand, and manage ROCD, fostering healthier and more fulfilling relationships.

Transcript

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Listen to the Setup on the iHeartRadio app, I Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to the podcast. New listeners, old listeners, wherever you are in the world, it is so great to have you here back for another episode. As we, of course, break down the very important psychology of our 20s. I've got a question. Have you ever had that feeling of meeting someone? Amazing feeling, like this relationship, you know, it could really go somewhere, or it's already going somewhere. You're happy, you're fulfilled. Your friends and your family, they love this person. And then out of nowhere, this kind of small feeling starts to creep in. It's this feeling of, is this person really the one? Is this part of our relationship normal? Should I be having these doubts? Is this a sign we shouldn't be together? It can definitely send you spiraling in confusion and facing all of these annoying questions leaves you doubting whether it is your anxiety or your intuition about this relationship. And this, my lovely listeners, is something that we call relationship anxiety or relationship ocd. And for those of us in our 20s, when, you know, we're kind of experiencing our first really long term important relationships, it can be a real pain and it can really ruin otherwise perfect and magical situations and magical experiences, and it can also leave us in a real negative thought spiral. So today we are going to break down exactly why this occurs, why we have been taught all these false notions of what a perfect relationship should look like and when you should be doubting your doubts rather than accepting them at face value. We also have the privilege to be joined by an incredible relationship coach, Rebecca Orr, who specializes in helping people find relationships that feel confident and secure. She is perfect for this episode. Welcome, Rebecca.

[A]

Oh, thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited.

[B]

I'm so excited. And you are hearing a little UK accent, everyone. We had to. We had to arrange this from across the oceans and oh, my gosh, the UK to Australian time zone is. Is a violent change. Like there is no time that works.

[A]

I have some Australian clients and it is. It's crazy.

[B]

She's used to it then, but I'm.

[A]

Honestly, I'm used to it.

[B]

You're used to it. When I, like, heard what you have to say about relationship ocd, I was like, everyone in their twenties needs to hear this advice. So before we get into that advice, can you quickly introduce yourself to the listeners of the psychology of your 20s?

[A]

Yeah, of course. So, as said, I am Rebecca, and I'm a relationship coach that specializes in helping people with anxieties and insecurities in their relationship. So what I do is help people kind of take back control of their brains, create relationships that feel secure and confident. And really, it's a lot about their relationship with themselves, being able to trust themselves, being able to manage their own minds, kind of challenge those fearful thoughts that their brain is constantly offering to them and. Yeah, and really just feel back in control. And the reason I got into doing this was because I spent the majority of my teenage years and my twenties just feeling absolutely, absolutely terrified in relationships. Just so, so scared all of the time. And this is why the work I do is so, so important to me, because basically I went through my. My own kind of journey with this work, with seeking out, you know, expert help and listening to podcasts and going to therapy and reading all the books and, and all these things, and, and, yeah, I finally Found kind of a set of tools, a set of concepts, a structure that really helped me to gao of this kind of spiral. Just made me realize that I need to help other people do this. So it's work that I'm really, really passionate about. And when I say I can relate to everyone I coach, it's. It's literally like coaching a past version of me in every session.

[B]

You know, you are the kind of, like, the kind of guest that I love having on the show when it's someone who is not only an expert, but has lived experience with the things we're talking about. Not to, like, hate on anyone who's trying to help people, but I just find that you can only get so deep if you haven't been through it yourself. Yeah, you can only really understand the extreme anxiety that comes with relationship OCD if you've experienced it yourself. We have to talk about this topic, though, because some people may not be familiar with relationship ocd. Can you give me a brief description of what it is and maybe what it feels like? Also something I need to bring up. It has OCD in the name, of course. But I think people, if you're thinking about the typical kind of OCD that we might talk about, it is quite different to what I'm assuming most people are imagining. So I'm sure you will confirm, deny all of those thoughts or explain them further. But yes, give us the basics of relationship ocd.

[A]

Rocd. Relationship OCD is where people have obsessive compulsive thinking in their intimate relationships. So it's going to feel like intrusive thoughts of doubt and anxiety surrounding relationships. And of course, doubt in any relationship is. Is normal. Of course it is. But people with ROCD find that the level of doubt, the level of doubt and anxiety is uncontrollable. And it feels really intrusive and it feels really distressing. And what that can look like is constantly debating if the relationship is right. It looks like a lot of ruminating. It looks like a lot of monitoring and checking how they feel. So do I feel in love now? Like, oh, no, I just felt bored. What does that mean? Am I. Am I attracted to them enough? It's a lot of kind of monitoring how they feel. There's a lot of comparing. So comparing your relationship to other people's relationships, what you see on TV or on films, social media, there can be a lot of kind of trying to control your partner, trying to kind of nitpick. You know, we don't want them to be in perfect. You want them to do, but do everything just right so that we don't have to feel any negative emotional doubt. If we can make them do it just right, then we don't have to feel negative emotion, which we will end up spiraling on and thinking that means something terrible. So it can. It can mean that people can be a little bit. Not in a malicious way, but that they kind of want to try and control and micromanage their partner a little bit. There can be a lot of ruminating about missing out. You know, am I missing out on someone better being afraid to commit to someone just in case it doesn't work out, and even to go as far as people might avoid committing to relationships at all because they're so afraid to experience this doubt and anxiety. So, yeah, it can. It can be a really hard thing to experience. And for me, although I coach a lot of people with rocd, what I really experienced myself was more kind of. Kind of. I feel like there's two kinds of fears. There's like the fear of being left, and then there's the fear of like, I'm not in the right relationship and, you know, this relationship is going to end, I might leave them. For me, I was much more afraid people were going to leave me. But I think the. The fears are so closely linked and I coach so many people with these intrusive doubts in their relationship and. And yeah, those were kind of the most common things that we see time and time again. So I'm sure some of your listeners can totally relate to at least one or two of those things.

[B]

Oh, yeah. And you know what? Especially in our 20s, when we're like, I just want to have this great big love, and I'm so young, and this is the time when I meant to be meeting people and dating and exploring, if I'm going to sink my time into this relationship, it better be the right person and I better be 100% sure. And I'm going to say this like, I'm in such an amazing relationship. I'm not 100% sure. I'm like, think I'm 99.9% there, but you are always going to have doubts. And I actually think that's important because it causes you to continue to examine your relationship and to continue to consciously say, I do want to be here. You know what I mean? I think if you never thought about your relationship at all, it becomes this passive thing. But we want to find the balance, right? I'm also assuming from what you've described that a lot of People do find that they end up self sabotaging relationships, that a relation like their relationship patterns may be quite self destructive, that they have a lot of regret around leaving past relationships, missing that person, being unable to move on. Do you find that some of your clients will come to you and say, there was this relationship I had and in hindsight it was perfect and I can't get them back. What am I going to do now? Like, is that something that happens?

[A]

Yeah. I have coached people that have been in that situation where as we start to unpack their patterns, they realize, oh wait, it wasn't them, that it wasn't the relationship that was the problem, it was my brain. And that can be a moment where people start to feel loads of regret and kind of almost shame around that. But I think it kind of plays into a little bit of what the kind of underlying thinking error is, which there can almost be this scarcity around it. Like there's this one right person for me and I know we're going to come on to talking about the one, the idea of the one as well, but we almost have this idea that there's this one person for me and they're predetermined, they're like a needle in the haystack that I need to go find. And therefore if I've missed them, then I've missed them, but they've gone. And I think a big part of snapping out of this ROCD kind of mentality is there isn't one right person. There are just billions of imperfect humans on the planet that you could create amazing relationships with. If it didn't happen with that person in the past because your brain wasn't ready for it, you weren't in the place to have that, or they weren't, or maybe now you are, but they aren't. Maybe they're now dating someone else. That doesn't mean you've missed your one great chance for love. It means that, okay, that person, it wasn't the right time with that person. And there are other amazing people that you can create a great relationship with. So I think for me it's always coaching them through that scarcity mindset of like, that. It's like that kind of, there's, there's one slice of pizza left in the box or like there's one partner left on the shelf, like, and I've missed out. No, there are always more amazing partners that we can connect with. The world is, the world is not short of people and there are billions of amazing, imperfect, flawed humans that we get to love. So, yeah, I think that's the way I would coach them around. That is really looking at scarcity mentality.

[B]

The scarcity mentality in dating right now, as I'm sure many of my 20 something single people can attest, is wild. Like, it's absolutely wild. It just. I saw this like, tick tock the other day and it's like if you met your partner on Hinge, you got like the last chopper out of Nam, like out of Vietnam. Like you got the last lifeboat off the Titanic. Like, it's terrible. That's hilarious. I know. And I was like, gosh, no wonder people feel like they need to. Like, no wonder people feel like they can't leave bad relationships. But also the sense of doubt around choosing the wrong person, because if you've chosen the wrong person, eventually you'll be single again. And it just seems all so terrible and bleak, which it isn't. But I'm jumping the gun because I want to ask you this one question. I still want to get some of our basics down pat. Are there certain people who are more prone to rocd relationship OCD than others?

[A]

Yeah. So I think there's so many things that can impact these kinds of thought patterns, and one is childhood experiences. You know, if you grew up in a family where maybe you saw a lot of kind of problematic behavior in a romantic relationship, you know, your mum and dad maybe, or maybe they went through a really painful divorce and that was really hard to witness. You know, our brains are always absorbing beliefs and we can absorb these beliefs from childhood that relationships are scary and dangerous or relationships aren't safe, relationships will end. Relationships are scary. And so childhood experiences is a huge one. Social conditioning, which I know we've said as well, like all these messages we receive about, you know, how relationships should look, the Disney movies we watched, you know, the rom coms we've seen, all this kind of social conditioning can really impact the way we think about it. Um, but I think some people do just have more anxious tendencies than others due to their genes, their DNA, and it can be hard to pinpoint. And I think my advice for, for clients is to, to worry less about why is my brain like this? And focus more on how can I show up with compassion and care to work with what I've got. You know, if my brain is absorbed this from somewhere, who knows where I could have been? Childhood could have been a Disney movie I watched when I was five. And my brain just really latched onto it, like, who knows, let's just meet you where you are and. And learn to guide ourselves through it.

[B]

Oh, do you know how refreshing that take is? I love to examine the why, but I think that it's like, it's the why and the now, and you need to be able to distinguish them because the past, your genetics, your personality, none of it is like. None of it is. I don't want to say incorrectable. None of it is set in stone.

[A]

Yeah, like, we can end up trapped in the story where we're like, well, because my dad cheated on my mom five times. Like, now I'm really bad at relationships. And that's not me mocking anyone that says those kinds of things. I totally understand it. I've been there myself. But we can end up trapped in that story where we identify as, I'm a person that's bad at relationships, or I'm a person that can't commit because of this thing. And when we tell our brains that, our brains just like, okay, we don't commit. That's. That's who we are. And there's no way out of that. So, yeah, I think just being able to recognize what might have contributed with compassion. And then, okay, now what. What are we doing from here?

[B]

I. This is something I talk about a lot also, just in my personal life with my friends. What is the story that you're telling yourself that is making your life less amazing than it could be? Because each of us is telling ourselves a story. Maybe it's not about relationship ocd. Just think about it in general, that we're telling ourselves a story around how we're incapable. We're telling ourselves a story around how we don't deserve certain things about what people think about us, about the fact that our relationships are always going to fail. I, again, I'm going to bring in a pop culture reference here, which I don't do that often, but there is so much pop culture references to relationship OCD when you look for them. It's the song, the Prophecy by Taylor Swift. Have you heard this song?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I was like, yeah, I'm guessing she has. And it's the sense of, like, I don't know if you've listened to the song, if you haven't. It's such a beautiful song. And it's basically like her talking about how she's deemed to always have her relationships fail. And anyone who is anxiously attached, anyone who struggles with relationship anxiety, anyone who has just been, you know, unfortunate enough to have had too many relationships end and end up being lessons will relate to that song of feeling like It's a prophecy. This is set in stone, and it most certainly is not. And we've talked about the story that we might tell ourselves. What about the story that society tells us? What. What are we told relationships should look like? And why do you find that sometimes unhealthy?

[A]

Wow. I could talk for hours about this, But I'll try and streamline it a little bit for the sake of not sending everyone to sleep. But, yeah, we have absorbed so many messages from society, from, you know, even, you know, the. The parents, the caregivers, teachers, that everyone that we've come into contact with, our brains are always listening, especially as children. We're always absorbing messages. And, you know, we're kind of sold the idea of romantic relationships saving us, you know, especially as women. And then this is one thing I want to say as well, is that I think a lot of women in particular suffer with ROCD because they've kind of been taught that their romantic relationship is a reflection of their worth and value. I mean, and if we think about historically, you know, one point, a woman's romantic relationship was literally her lifeline. She didn't have a bank account. She didn't have a job. She didn't have a place to live on her own. She couldn't buy property. A romantic partner was. Was her lifeline. So although we're not living in that thankfully anymore, you know, we. It still trickled down where women really believe that their romantic partner is a reflection of their worth and value. If they don't have a romantic partner, it's because they aren't worthy and valuable in some way. And if they do, that person is like this mirror of whether they are worthy and valuable. And so, yeah, we put a lot of pressure on our romantic relationships, and we. We often kind of think of them as coming along to save us. You know, if we're single, we think, oh, I'm going to get this person come along, and they are going be this amazing person that's gonna come along and complete me. They're gonna be the other half of me. They're gonna be my soulmate, my one and only, and then my life will be happily ever after. And if we think of the Disney films that we've watched, think of rom coms, you know, we always see them running off into the sunset together. We don't see the after part of the happily ever after. You know, we don't see the part where Cinderella sat around feeling a bit bored and frustrated because the prince has been late home every night that week or you know, we don't see them maybe start scrolling on their phones, not to each other, or the fact that they've maybe not had sex for a few weeks because, you know, they've been really tired. We don't see the realities of relationships really played out to us even on social media, you know, and this is just, you know, it's not kind of social media's fault. It's just the way that it is. But we don't post our lows, we only post the highs. We post the engagement photos, we post those gushy Valentine's posts when we're all dressed up. Of course we're not going to post the mundane moments where we're just sat, like, oh, look at me, like sat with my partner having nothing to say. We're not going to post that. And the brain then subconsciously believes that those things don't exist. The boring, the mundane, the negative just doesn't exist. So then when we experience it, we think, what has gone wrong? There must be something wrong if I'm, yeah, I must not be normal if I'm feet like, look at everyone else is so happy, so connected out, doing cute things, having a great time all the time. And I'm sat here feeling bored and, you know, maybe we're not doing anything this weekend. Something must be wrong. And so, yeah, one of the expectations we have is for our relationships to be happy and blissful all of the time. And we think our partners are supposed to fulfill every single need that we have. And this is one of the things that I was saying about kind of people monitoring their emotions because they've kind of believed that relationships. And I was actually coaching someone last night who said the same thing that, well, relationships are supposed to be happy, right? And we were like I said, well, yeah, you know, happiness is one emotion. You're feeling your relationship. But what if you're supposed to also feel other emotions? And it was like a, it was kind of like a light bulb moment for her where she's like, oh, she thought that happy was the one emotion she was supposed to feel. Sorry, I realize I'm talking a lot now. I get excited about this.

[B]

I love it.

[A]

But yeah, so we end up, if we do feel a negative emotion, like annoyed, irritated, frustrated with our partners, we start to panic and think, I shouldn't be feeling that. You know, why am I feeling this way? This isn't normal. I think we're just so scared of doing it wrong that we, we become hyper vigilant. You know, we start comparing, are we Having sex enough compared to other couples, are we going on enough date nights compared to other couples as if there is just this one sack normal. And we just want to know that that exists so that we can then rest assured that we are doing it right. So yeah, there's a whole lot of expectations to challenge. And I think that is one of the biggest, of the biggest things that we have to do with Rocd is really looking at, looking at what is my unchecked story of how relationships should be? What is the reality? And you know, and a question I like to ask people is if you knew that that was just totally normal, would it be a problem? And for most of them are like, oh no. If I knew that it was normal to sometimes go a few weeks without having sex, like, I know it wouldn't be a big deal to me at all. Like, people almost need permission for it to be normal. Like, it's okay.

[B]

I think it's because relationships are nuanced and complex and complicated and something. They're scary. Like being in love is scary. We look to be validated by what other people are doing because that provides us with some sense of confidence that we're doing it right. It's like cheating off the test of someone next to you thinking that they know what they're doing and they don't actually. And when you're talking about that client about, you know, I have to feel happy in a relationship and you saying, well, what if your relationship is meant to teach you other things? You know, as humans, there was a study I read recently that we have access to 34, 000 different kinds of emotions, distinct, different emotional states. How boring would it be if your relationship only fulfilled one? That means you would have 33,999 other emotions, maybe 998 if we also include love that you would have to find elsewhere. Yeah, that doesn't sound particularly enjoyable.

[A]

Yeah, I love that you said that as well. Because one of the concepts I teach is called the. The 50 50. And it's this idea that life is supposed to be about the 50 50. The the 5050 of positive and negative emotion. And no matter where you are, no matter where you live, no matter what job you do, your brain is going to create a 50 50. I always think of like, you know, when you think of people that are rich and famous and have it all that my brain goes to like the Kardashians. You only have to watch an episode of the Kardashians to see that they are living the 50 50. They have a lot of positive emotion, but, boy, do they have negative emotion too. And they have money, they have cars, they have, you know, glamour. They have the big house. Their brain is still creating the 50, 50. They're gonna feel bored, they're gonna feel frustrated, they're gonna feel irritated, they're gonna feel disconnected sometimes. And it's really this reminder that it doesn't matter where you are, what you're doing. You know, on my honeymoon in. In December, me and my wife were. We're sat on the beach one day, and we were both just in a terrible mood. And we both looked at each other, we were like, this really proves the idea of the 50 50, because we're literally on our honeymoon on a beach, and we're both really irritated. Yeah. In love. And we're both really irritated. And we were, like, waiting for the boat to pick us up, and we were like. We were just in, like, a bad mood. And it's just this idea of no matter which partner you have, no matter who you pick, your brain is going to create the negative 50, which includes boredom, fr, anxiety, irritation, all the things you said. Like, it's going to give you the whole spectrum. And I think when we can know that we can. We can worry less about, okay, which right partner is going to give me the exit ramp off that human experience? Which right partner is going to come along and save me from that negative 50? And just which human do I want to enjoy loving while knowing my brain is going to create all of the emotions no matter what?

[B]

Yeah. Oh, my God. I love the way you put that. I absolutely love it. We're gonna take a short break here. Let us have a little break for water, a little tea break, a thinking break. But we will return very, very shortly. Okay, we are back with the wonderful, brilliant Rebecca Orr to talk about relationship ocd. So something I know people are thinking is, if my brain is going to create the 5050 with anyone, when do I know what doubts to listen to and which ones to ignore? Because there are people who are just strictly not right for us. So do you have any tricks for telling the difference between an anxious thought and an actual doubt?

[A]

Yeah. So there's a process that I would encourage people to try, and it basically starts with self soothing, because in the moment where you feel triggered, as in anxious, you feel that kind of urgency. What we've got to remember is that your brain is seeing whatever the situation is as dangerous. Your brain thinks that this relationship ending is. Is dangerous in some way, or, you know, this Partner not being right for you is dangerous. It's going to mean something bad. So sounding the alarm, and you can think of it like maybe an overprotective guard dog or a faulty smoke alarm, I sometimes use that analogy. So your brain is sounding the alarm as if, you know there's a lion about to attack you, when really, okay, your partner just might not be a good match for you. You're not going to die. But. So we've got to start with just kind of grounding ourselves. Because when we're in that place of heightened anxiety or fear, the rational part of our brain is not online. The prefrontal cortex, the part of our brain that is in charge of logical, rational thinking, it's completely offline. And it's the primitive brain doing all the talking. So in these moments, if you're feeling really triggered, you know, you're having a lot of doubts. Just start by first of all, observing the experience. So I like to do this by just shifting to the observer of my thoughts. So, okay, my brain is telling me this thought, or, okay, I'm noticing my partner, you know, said this, and my brain's making it mean this. Okay, I'm just noticing my brain is telling me this. So, you know, it's kind of like you're shifting to observing the story. Then we've got to sit and ground ourselves back in our body. Gotta calm the body down again. And we're signaling to the primitive brain, it's okay, brain, we're safe. There's no lion, there's no tiger. We're actually safe. So there's a whole process I teach on kind of grounding in the body, but it really involves being willing to sit and feel the emotions, just feel the sensations of that anxiety, just notice where they are, take a breath around them, notice how you can just coexist with them. They can't hurt you and. And try and just be present with that experience without trying to rush to escape it. And the client I was coaching last night, we were talking about this, and she always feels like her. Like it's an emergency. She has to solve it right away. So if her brain offers her these doubts, she has to solve it. She has to know whether it's like, you know, right, wrong, or what she's going to do. So we've been really working on, can she just sit and observe? Like, okay, like, I'm feeling this in my body and this is the story my brain is telling me, okay, this isn't an emergency. This is just, you know, a thought and Feeling I'm having. It's okay. When you do that, it's kind of like you're turning the volume down. So what felt like a 9 out of 10 on the anxious doubt scary spiral scale is going to come down to like a 4 or a 3 or even lower. You can just bring your kind of. It's going to turn the volume down. It's going to bring the sensations down a little bit. It. They might not go completely, but it's going to just make them just kind of more like background noise.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

From there, that's when you can really check, is there an unchecked story here? Is there an expectation at play that I need to look at? So I always like to get my clients to separate out what are the facts versus what is the story, just so they can check. Is this something I want to keep thinking? So I had a client that would doubt whether her relationship was right whenever her and her partner sat in silence on the sofa, scrolling on their phone. And so the fact was they were, they were sat in silence scrolling on their phones and her thought her story was, we should be more connected. We shouldn't ever feel bored. We should always have something to talk about. So we've got to challenge those expectations and stories. You know, is that really true that you should never feel bored ever, just because you're. You have a romantic partner? Like, why, you know, do you have to be in conversation all the time to love and care about someone? You know, is that really true? Is it possible you can have nothing particular to say in that moment and still really get on with that person and think they're great? So it's kind of like really challenging those misconceptions, those expectations. Is there a shot at play? Who said, who said that you should be doing this? Where did that come from? Was that something from childhood? Was that something from social media or the kind of Disney films you watched or rom coms? So doing that first is important because you might discover after going through that process that there's no issue. Actually, it was just your brain, your fearful brain sounding the alarm to try and protect you. And actually it's not, not a problem. Other times you might discover that there are things that are a deal breaker, that maybe although you've challenged the story, you still don't really like this thing or that there's something that maybe that goes against a value of yours that doesn't feel good in the relationship. And that's going to be so much easier to say when you're coming from a Calm, rational place. And you've challenged those stories first.

[B]

I love that. Where it's like, okay, we need to get back to that regulated, calm state before making any rash decisions. I also think, in my experience, and I've done a whole episode on this, called anxiety versus Intuition. Your intuition about something is not going to demand an answer from you right away. Your anxiety is urgent. Your anxiety wants an accelerated solution so that it can return to an internal state of emotional homeostasis. Your intuition will be like, you make this decision in your own time.

[A]

It's calm knowing rather than that anxious. Yeah, totally.

[B]

Exactly. And it all comes back to this. I also think there are some pretty obvious red flags, right? And I think that if you are continuously having this feeling of this just doesn't feel right. And it's making you miserable in other situations, like where it just won't go away and you are miserable because of it, and you've discussed it with that person and they. And it just isn't being resolved. Like, there is a genuine need that is not being met for you. It's like sitting on your phone with your partner. If you are sitting on the couch and you're sitting in silence and you're kind of like, I actually kind of enjoy this, but maybe we shouldn't be doing this. That's probably an anxious thought. But if you're sitting on the couch and you turn to partner and say, hey, I actually really would want us to. I really want to connect right now. And they're like, no, I don't want to. Leave me alone. And they're not listening to you. Yeah, like that. I think that is an actual doubt. It's something that you can't collaborate through. It's something that, like, if there's going to be this 50, 50, you want a team member. You want someone who you actually can collaborate with and compromise with. If that's not them, I think it's not going to work. What are some.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Sorry.

[A]

Sorry. I was just gonna say one. One of the things I teach as well is this idea of the want match. And it's this idea that we have different wants in a relationship, and some people will match those and some people won't. So, you know, you might have a one for a partner that's really physically affectionate, and they might be someone that doesn't like physical affection. Well, that's not a want match then. And I think, yeah, when we can really. It's kind of like when we can calm the. The overprotective guard dog down like, it's okay, buddy. It's okay. We're gonna be all right. We can then drop into that, well, what are the deal breakers? Me? What is the kind of partner I want? You know, no part is going to be perfect. The person isn't gonna do it perfectly all of the time. But are we aligned with our values and our want matches? You know, do we want the same things out of a relationship? If this person wants to, you know, never really have sex, that's what they want. But you have a, you know, you have a really strong sex drive and sex is really important to you.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

That might not be a one match and that's okay too. So. Yeah, I love that you said that. And I think you're right. When we can kind of drop into that calmness, it becomes so much easier to decipher.

[B]

And if you have respect for the other person, it's like, I just feel like that is also. It's just such a big thing. And if there's no respect, that is a deal breaker you should listen to. I also believe, and you can correct me on this because you're the expert, but this is my personal opinion, and I also believe that you don't have to address your doubts right now if you feel comfortable and stable. You know what I mean? Like, the anxiety again is this urgent thing. I find that sometimes with my relationship with ocd, I'm like, what if I feel differently in five years and then I've wasted all this time and there was something five years ago that I didn't see and we're five years down the line and I ignored it and oh my God, now my whole life is over.

[A]

I think that is the story. We've got a challenge as well. And sorry, that is what I hear so much when people say, I'm so worried that I'm going to regret this in five years time. I think it's so, it's so interesting because if we think about, you know, your brain is constantly telling you stories. And basically in those moments we're saying, I'm afraid that in five years time my brain might tell me the story that I've wasted time. And so I'm really afraid today that my brain is going to say something to me in five years time that will like. But we forget that in five years time we get to decide whether we believe that. And I think this is why one of the things I always think of RSD is we've got to really look at what our brain is so afraid of underneath this all okay, if you are in this relationship and it ends in five years time, what is scary about that? And I think you know that there's that thought you said, well, it means I've wasted time. That's not actually a fact. That is totally an optional way to think. And you know, I always think I got married last year and I hope we're going to stay together forever. But if in five years time we don't, we, we break up for whatever reason, I'm never gonna think, oh, I wasted time, that was the wrong relationship, and now I need to beat myself up for that. I'm gonna think, no, that was the total right decision for me in that moment. And that was a beautiful relationship. And if it ends in five years time, I get to go and create another great relationship. And I think that is really what we need to look at. You know, what is it that you're afraid of? Is it that you're going to tell yourself you chose wrong if this relationship ends? Is it that you don't believe you could handle the breakup? Is it a fear of getting divorced? Is it, you know, that you think that you then won't be able to meet anyone else at a certain age? Because I think we almost need to be willing for our relationships to end and know that we can handle them. But for so many of us, we see the idea of a relationship ending is failure. So we think, okay, in order for me to see this as a success and believe I'm good at relationships and I'm doing it right, this relationship has to last forever. So we almost then start to work backwards and we're like, okay, well, how do I know that this person's going to be my forever person? Well, then I need to make sure that we never argue that we. And then we start to look for all these red flags and it just, it ruins our experience of it versus what if it didn't need to last forever, necessarily. And again, I'm married. It's not me saying that I don't want my marriage to last forever. I'd love if it did. But I'm, I'm open to the possibility that if it ended, I could be okay and I wouldn't beat myself up. I wouldn't make it mean I failed. It wouldn't be a failed relationship. It would be a relationship that lasted however long it lasted. So I, I don't know what you think of that and what that brings up for you, but that for me was a, is a really kind of important piece of this as well, I'll.

[B]

Tell you what I think about that. Absolutely amazing advice. I think that's incredible advice and I think that that is going to change the brain chemistry of a lot of people listening because it is absolutely true. It's like, just because a relationship doesn't last forever doesn't mean it wasn't beautiful. Doesn't mean it wasn't right then. And I think it's so funny. You've just unlocked this in me of like, maybe I think that all that our doubts are, all that our anxiety is, is our brain trying to have some insurance against future suffering.

[A]

Yes, that's it.

[B]

It's just like, okay, well if I worry about this, this is like my insurance. This is like gonna stop this. I'm sorry, but your anxiety is going to do nothing to stop you from suffering in the future. It's just going to make you suffer now and again. There's this huge study in psychology that basically says we tend to over dramaticize or intensify how we think we'll feel in the future. So you're sitting here right now and you're saying, well, if I don't get the dream job now in 10 years, I'm gonna feel so terrible. Actually, they've done studies on this and they found most of the time people actually feel pretty neutral. We over exaggerate how we think we'll feel in the future. And this is the same thing with relationship ocd. Your relationship doesn't work out, it is going to be devastating, but it's not gonna. Your life isn't gonna be over. You, you will be fine. People. So many people have made this pilgrimage, have had relationships that have failed and they have thought it was absolutely perfect. So your anxiety doesn't mean one thing or the other. It's just again, this insurance. But I want to ask this, this follow up question, which is you're sitting here, you're doubting your relationship, you're with this amazing person. How do you deal with the guilt of that?

[A]

Do you.

[B]

The guilt of like, well, if I, if I'm having doubts, maybe they are better off without me.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, that's so, so common as well. And, and yeah, there's so much shame and guilt around this. And, and yeah, I think the most important thing to remember is that you aren't your thoughts. So the thoughts you have of doubt, of judgment towards your partner, of doubting if you love them enough, of doubting whether they're right for you, you're not those thoughts. You're just the observer of those Thoughts. Those thoughts are just random sentences that your brain offers you. And your brain works through repetition. So the fact that they come up so often is just because those are the ones you've been practicing for so, so long. They're like your brains. It's like the. It's like a radio station that loves to play the same three songs. Like your brain is going to keep offering you the same thoughts that it loves to play the most. And that's all these thoughts are. They're just, they've been programmed into your brain from so many places. Maybe past experiences, maybe mess from society, maybe, you know, early traumas that you had or just these fears and doubts about what it would mean if the relationship ended. You know, that is what created these thoughts. So it's kind of remembering that you just get to observe the thought. You don't need to beat yourself up for the thoughts being there. You know, having those doubts isn't a sign that you're a mean, unloving person or even that you don't love your partner. It's just a sign that your brain has been trained to think in a certain way about relationships right now, now. So I would always say if you notice you're feeling guilt, if you're shaming yourself, try and shift to some self compassion of like, I'm just a human with a very normal human brain. And that's okay. You know, my fears and doubts aren't me. I'm just the observer of them. That's okay.

[B]

There's a new therapeutic practice called radical self compassion that I came across a 3 a few years ago, just like changed my life. It's like you can un, you can promise to unconditionally love someone else. Why can't you promise to unconditionally love yourself? Yeah, that's completely possible. Like, it's also coming back to this. You know, that's a term OCD is in. This is in, is in relationship ocd. OCD is defined in large part by intrusive thoughts that we feel like we don't have control over. Yeah, that really aligns with this guilt, the sense of like, why am I thinking this? I must be a bad person. And people with just, you know, regular OCD will find that a lot like, why am I thinking about, why am I thinking about crashing this car? Why am I suddenly thinking these terrible things? This means something about me. And what you're saying is, you know, it doesn't. Which I think is really, really beautiful.

[A]

Yeah, it totally doesn't. It's just the way your brain has been trained to think right now. And, and that's okay. You can just be. It's almost like you can think of your brain as this separate entity from you. Like it. You can use different analogies whether you want to think of it like a scared, frightened anim little toddler, you know, like you're the parent of it, like whatever analogy works for you. But you want to remember that you are the manager of your mind. You're not your mind. And, and really changing your relationship to it is so important. If, if every time your brain says something to you, you freak out and take it super seriously or you beat yourself up for having it, or you start to scream at it, why are you like this? You know, that's not going to be a very great way of managing it versus calmly being able to observe what it's saying and, and guide it to where you want it to go.

[B]

Again, such beautiful advice. We're going to take one more short break and when we return, we've got some wonderful listener questions. So stay with us. Okay, Rebecca, this is something I've been doing recently where, you know, there are just so many niche questions that people have for me out there about specific topics, and I want to make sure that we cover everything that they ask. So I've got four listener questions for you today, actually three listener questions and one bonus question for me. So I'm going to tell you those right now, starting with this first question, which is coming from Emma. I feel like I am totally madly in love with my partner and we have a beautiful relationship except for one thing. I feel like we cannot communicate and we're always having fights, tension over the same things over and over again. Should I break up with them or do I just accept this as a flaw that they will always have and live with it?

[A]

Yeah, that's an interesting question. And I think it was kind of hard for me to give an answer in the sense of knowing more about the context of the situation would be really important. But also, there is no right answer. You know, there's no expert out there that can tell you what relationship is right for you or when to stay or when to go. That's never my job. But I think before you make a decision to, to leave or stay, it's just to do some real self reflection on your own thoughts and feelings and the way you're showing up. Because if you do decide to leave, this can just be a really great kind of opportunity for you to take back control of who you are in relationships. So, you know, noticing, okay, what is the pattern in this communication? Is it that I say something, that they say something, and then, you know, I get defensive and they get defensive, like to just look at what is going on and really come back to owning your side of it, you know, okay, well, what, how are you approaching conversations? What is the, the feelings you're having and what are the reoccurring thoughts driving that, you know, do you keep making him, sighing, enduring an argument, mean he is unbothered or like, whatever. And can we just, let's just challenge some of that so we can see. Is there a different way to navigate these moments that might turn the volume down on them completely? That might make it bit less of a problem. So again, that's really hard to just coach on it and just a short, pithy answer on a podcast, but I would do some work on, on that really looking at, okay, what are my thoughts and feelings during these situations and how do those thoughts and feelings have me showing up? And is that intentional? Am I really showing up as my intentional higher self in these moments? And if, if not, no, there's no shame there. We all, we all struggle with that from time to time, but spend a moment just trying to, to work on that. And, and I always advise getting curious about what might be going on in our partner's brain too. You know, if your partner keeps having the same response to something, let's get curious. You know, what might that be about for them? You know, do they keep hearing something you're saying and interpreting it as they're not good enough? You know, me and my wife had this at the start of our relationship. Whenever I kind of gave some feedback or some criticism on something, she'd get very defensive. And when I kind of dropped into that curiosity and even got curious with her about, you know, what is it that comes up for you when I say that what's going on you. It was that she thought I was saying she was a bad partner, and I wasn't saying that at all, but that was what her brain was hearing. So I think we can bring that curiosity and, and, and then see what comes out of that. But, but yeah, there's going to be at some point where you've really worked on yourself in it, you know, you're doing your best, you're showing up as your best self, and the other person isn't able to meet you where you want them to be or that they're not able to, to kind of have the same values with you in terms of communication. And openness or, you know, emotional regulation, whatever it is. And I think, think, yeah, sometimes it's accepting that, okay, this is the person for who they are. This is who they are. Is this someone I want to commit to loving for the. The good, the bad, the ugly?

[B]

I love that advice. Our second question comes from a listener called Sean. Sean asks, is there a correlation between relationship OCD and an anxious attachment style?

[A]

I mean, yeah, I would definitely say so. I think with anyone with an anxious attachment style, their brain is kind of programmed to see relationships as dangerous, unsafe. They think that how this person behaves will either create safety or, you know, danger. So they are constantly monitoring, you know, what's this person doing? What does it mean about me if they leave me? What does it mean about me if they, you know, don't. If they're not as interested anymore? And. And there's this kind of focus on the other person to create this inner feeling of safety and security. Totally then relates to rocd, because it's kind of the same fixation. The brain is seeing that thing outside of you, that person, that relationship, as either safe or dangerous and trying to work out which it is and kind of create safety from it. So, yeah, I definitely think there's a. There's a correlation there. And for me, I think whether it's rocd, whether it's anxious attachment, it's really coming back to looking at your internal experience rather than trying to focus on the external, rather than focusing on what is my partner doing or not not doing, it's okay. What are the thoughts and feelings I'm having? And what is that bringing up? Like, what is whatever's going on out here bringing up within me? Because that's where the safety and security is actually created. It's never created by the thing outside of us. It's created by our own thoughts and the beliefs we have. So, yeah, I hope that answers that question. There's definitely a correlation. And, yeah, coming back to whichever it is, getting curious about your internal experience is really important button.

[B]

Again, excellent advice. So this is the final listener question. My relationship OCD is so bad that I cannot go more than a day without thinking that I should break up with my partner. I love them, but some part of me really just wants a break from my own thoughts. Would you recommend taking some time away just to get my relationship OCD under order, slash regulated, or should I stick it out and work with them?

[A]

It's a really good question. And again, I want to say that there's no right or wrong if you feel like you just really need a break, do it, you know, you, you know what's right for you. Let yourself be the guide of that. But one thing I will say is that often when we're experiencing an emotion we don't like, like anxiety. We think the solution is to remove the external thing that we're blaming for causing it. So with rocd, we think anxious, attachment, it's the partner, we think, let's remove them and then I won't have to have these thoughts and feelings. And there's some truth in that, you know, if that's the thing that triggers the thoughts and feelings, okay, you're probably going to get some relief. But what we don't really realize is that, well, that those thoughts and feelings are still going to be there the minute we go back to the relationship or the minute we start another relationship. You know, I've seen so many people leave relationships thinking, okay, this partner was the problem, I'm going to leave. And then they have the same anxious, doubtful thoughts in the next one and they're like, oh, damn it. Like, it turns out changing the partner didn't really work. So my advice, if you're, if you feel like you're able, if you don't feel like, you know, you're at the, a real burnt out place with it, that you just need the break. Take that if you need it. But I would also consider, what if instead of trying to escape the thoughts, what if I could work on changing my relationship to them? So if your brain keeps offering you the thought, this relationship is wrong for me, I should end this relationship, you want to start changing your relationship to that thought. So when it comes up, it can be like, oh, oh, there's my brain's favorite story again. I'm noticing my brain is offering me that story again that this relationship is wrong for me. Interesting. Like, here's my brain's favorite story to tell me right now and kind of change how seriously you're taking it. Consider. How does it make sense that your brain is offering this to you? Oh, it makes total sense. My brain wants to keep going back here because it's terrified of this relationship being wrong for me or it's terrified of me ever having to go through a breakup in five years time. Okay, so it makes sense that my brain keeps. Wants, keeps wanting to offer me these thoughts so there's so much more work you can do and that there's different kind of tools you can use for diffusing thoughts. There's this thing that you can kind of sing the, the intrusive thought to yourself, it kind of lightens the mood of it. There's things like kind of seeing the thought coming from this like, like separate voice from you and there's different things you can do. But that would be my advice to you is, is how can you make the occurrence of this thought less of a problem problem? Because what that's going to do is turn down the volume on it altogether. It's going to seem like less of a problem and from there your anxiety is going to come down a lot as well.

[B]

This final question is for me and I ask every single guest on the show this question. What is one piece of advice you'd have for anyone in their twenties that has nothing to do with what we talked about today?

[A]

Well, the thing I was gonna say was change our relationship to our thoughts, but I guess I can't say that we've got nothing.

[B]

I know it's a bit of it, honest.

[A]

Yeah, no, it's difficult. And yeah, honestly then the piece of advice I'd give to anyone in their 20s is just to go easy on themselves. I know that sounds like such a basic thing to say, but I think sometimes it does kind of tie into what we're talking about. But we have so much pressure from things we see on social media, from expectations maybe our parents have of us, from what our friends are doing. And I think just remembering that life is supposed to be fun, that, you know, you can actually change so much of your experience of what you're going through in any situation by just lightening up and being a little bit more of a friend to yourself about it. You know, offering yourself that compassion, being your own biggest cheerleader and remembering that, you know, that there's nothing that could happen that you couldn't be equipped to handle. And that is something I really focus on a lot with my own clients, is looking at whatever that fear is, that worst case scenario and considering, you know, how could I feel empowered to show up to handle that if it happened, you know, what would I want to think and feel if that happened? So, yeah, I think kind of a mixed bag of advice that of course, as I was going to say, your relationship to your thoughts and changing that is so, so important, but also working on having more of that light hearted, compassionate, you know, kind of supportive relationship with yourself is such a game changer. And if you can master that in your 20s, your 30s, your 40s, it's gonna all be great. If you can work on that relationship with you where, you know, I'M gonna have my own back no matter what happens, you know, it's gonna be great.

[B]

That's such a resounding, beautiful way to finish this episode. I want to thank you so much for coming on. I'm gonna leave all of your links below, but where can people find you?

[A]

Yeah, amazing. So I'm on Instagram mainly so you can find me at Rebecca or coaching. So that's Rebecca and then O R e Coach. Also come find me on my podcast which is master your relationship mind drama. And yeah, I'll, I'll send you all the links to the, the website and things like that. But yes, Instagram and my podcast mainly where people can come find me if they want to know more about thought work and managing their thoughts and managing their anxiety. And I talk a lot about that on the podcast as well.

[B]

I know your podcast is actually the perfect if this is an episode that you really related to, go and check out Rebecca's podcast because there is so much advice there. But as always, if you enjoyed this episode as well, share with a friend who might need to hear it. Leave a five star review wherever you are listening. Make sure you're following along and make sure you're following along on Instagram at that psychology podcast. It's where I got the listener questions today. It's where I love to engage with you all if you've made it this far into the episode. Hello, Lucky, Lucky, Lucky. I want you to leave a little magic crystal ball emoji in the comments because that's what we think our relationship OCD is and it's not. So it's also a great way to know who the loyal listeners. Yeah. Who's listened this far. And as always, we will be back next week. Until then, stay safe. Please be kind in the theme of today's episode. Be gentle with yourself and we will talk very, very soon.