291. How I wrote a book and how you can too

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Psychology of Your 20s – Episode 291: "How I Wrote a Book and How You Can Too"

Release Date: April 29, 2025 | Host: Jemma Sbeg | Produced by iHeartPodcasts

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Introduction

In Episode 291 of "The Psychology of Your 20s," host Jemma Sbeg delves into a departure from the show's usual focus on psychological concepts, instead exploring the intricate process of writing a book. Titled "How I Wrote a Book and How You Can Too," this episode serves as a comprehensive guide for aspiring authors navigating the daunting journey of authorship. Through her personal experiences and practical advice, Jemma offers listeners valuable insights into transforming creative ideas into published works.

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The Author's Journey to Writing a Book

Jemma begins by sharing her motivation behind writing her book, "Person in Progress." She candidly discusses the initial enthusiasm of drafting her first manuscript, which she completed in approximately four to six months. However, she quickly identifies the hidden complexities that often accompany the book-writing process—elements seldom addressed when individuals embark on the journey to authorship.

“At first draft, I was really, really happy with. But from there, there were so many extra hidden steps that no one really talks about,” Jemma explains (01:10).

Her initial concept centered around publishing her personal journal entries, titled "20 Something Diaries." Despite recognizing the appeal, she acknowledges that the vulnerability inherent in sharing intimate thoughts publicly posed significant challenges, ultimately leading her to abandon this idea.

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Choosing the Right Idea

Transitioning from her initial concept, Jemma outlines the importance of selecting a book idea that resonates deeply with the author. She emphasizes that the desire to write should stem from an intrinsic need to share a unique perspective or unexplored narrative.

“One of the questions I would ask myself, and that you can ask yourself, is: What is the topic or idea that you already could talk about all day? What is the thing that you think about the most?” Jemma advises (04:23).

She draws inspiration from Elizabeth Gilbert's analogy, highlighting that ideas exist independently until someone claims them by giving them form. This perspective underscores the necessity of genuine commitment to the chosen topic, thereby ensuring that the book emerges organically from the author's passion rather than external expectations.

Jemma recounts her realization that her scripted podcast episodes were laying the groundwork for her book. The extensive writing involved in crafting these scripts—ranging from 4,000 to 13,000 words each—made her recognize that she was already on the path to producing a book, albeit in a different format.

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Pitching the Book to Publishers

Understanding the competitive nature of the publishing industry, Jemma discusses the dual pathways authors can take: either completing the manuscript before seeking a publisher or pitching the idea beforehand. She clarifies the intricacies involved in pitching a book, detailing the essential components of a successful proposal.

A notable quote from Jemma at 12:06: “Who is the audience going to be? What is the plot line going to be? Who are the characters?”

She outlines the pitch structure, which includes an "About Me" section that highlights the author's credibility, a detailed description of the book's content, and a chapter or story outline to showcase the book's potential. Jemma emphasizes the importance of demonstrating that the author is capable of delivering a compelling narrative aligned with market trends.

Through her own experience, facilitated by an agent named Dan from UTA, Jemma illustrates the process of taking a book to market. She highlights the significance of networking and leveraging existing relationships to navigate the publishing landscape successfully. Additionally, she touches upon the alternative route of self-publishing, sharing a success story of an anonymous author who initially marketed locally before securing a full-time publisher due to overwhelming demand.

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Writing Process and Tips

Jemma transitions into her core message: offering five actionable tips for aspiring authors. These tips are designed to streamline the writing process, maintain motivation, and ensure the creation of a meaningful manuscript.

Tip 1: Think Before You Write

Before embarking on the writing journey, Jemma advises authors to have a foundational idea of their book's direction without overcomplicating the plot. This balance helps authors navigate the inevitable challenges of writing, such as writer's block or structural dilemmas.

“At some point, that book is going to stop writing itself and you are going to have to push hard,” she notes (22:09).

Jemma shares her strategy of outlining chapters in advance, enabling her to remain focused and committed to the writing process despite the obstacles that arise.

Tip 2: Create and Commit to a Routine

Establishing a writing routine is paramount to maintaining productivity and meeting deadlines. Jemma underscores the necessity of dedicating specific times and days exclusively to writing, which fosters discipline and separates writing from other daily activities.

“I created a schedule where Sundays, Mondays, and Tuesdays were my writing days,” Jemma explains (25:11).

She also mentions the varied approaches of other successful authors, such as Haruki Murakami, who combines writing with physical activities like running to enforce discipline through positive reinforcement.

Tip 3: Embrace Type 2 Fun

Jemma introduces the concept of "Type 2 Fun," which refers to activities that may not be enjoyable in the moment but are rewarding in hindsight. Writing a book epitomizes this category, as it demands significant effort and perseverance despite its challenges.

“Writing a book is hard. If it wasn't hard, everyone would be doing it,” she states (28:16).

She encourages authors to find joy in the process and recognize the long-term fulfillment that comes from completing such a monumental task.

Tip 4: Kill Your Darlings

Perhaps the most challenging tip, Jemma advises authors to be willing to discard parts of their manuscript that do not serve the overall narrative, even if they are personally attached to them. This practice ensures that the final work remains cohesive and impactful.

“I know that was a hard one. But sometimes you have to kill your darlings,” Jemma acknowledges (33:12).

She recounts her own experience of removing a chapter that, despite significant effort, did not contribute effectively to her book's intended message.

Tip 5: Write for Yourself First

Jemma emphasizes the importance of authentic self-expression over catering to perceived audience expectations. Writing from one's genuine voice ensures that the work remains true to the author's intentions and fosters a more heartfelt connection with readers.

“Write this book for yourself first, not for anybody else,” she advises (35:10).

She warns against the pitfalls of allowing self-doubt and the desire for external validation to compromise the authenticity of the work.

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Listener Q&A: Addressing Common Writing Challenges

In the latter part of the episode, Jemma engages with listener-submitted questions, providing tailored advice based on her experiences and the principles discussed earlier.

Question 1: How Do You Know Where to Start?

Jemma suggests that authors begin with the section or chapter they feel most passionate about, rather than adhering strictly to a linear progression. This approach can ignite enthusiasm and provide momentum to carry the project forward.

“Start where you feel most called to begin and most passionate to write about,” she responds (41:20).

She shares her method of selecting chapters from her book "Person in Progress" based on her immediate interests, which allowed her to maintain engagement throughout the writing process.

Question 2: How Do You Finish a Draft When You Keep Rewriting the First Three Chapters?

To overcome perfectionism and the temptation to endlessly revise initial chapters, Jemma advises authors to set aside these sections temporarily. By focusing on advancing the manuscript beyond the problematic areas, authors can sustain their progress and reduce the likelihood of stagnation.

“Put those three chapters aside, put them in one document, and start chapter four in a new document,” Jemma recommends (43:14).

Additionally, she suggests timed writing exercises to foster creativity without the pressure of perfection, allowing ideas to flow more freely.

Question 3: I've Always Wanted to Write, But I Feel Like No One Cares About What I Have to Say.

Addressing fears of irrelevance and imposter syndrome, Jemma encourages authors to question why they believe no one would care about their work. She posits that self-doubt is often a protective mechanism designed to prevent potential disappointment, yet it simultaneously hinders creative expression.

“Why not you?” Jemma challenges (45:54).

She emphasizes that every established author faced similar fears and that perseverance can lead to unexpected resonance with readers.

Question 4: How Do You Go About Getting a Publisher/Agent? What's the Process Like and What Are the Chances of Being Rejected?

Jemma candidly discusses the high likelihood of rejection in the publishing industry but frames it as a pathway to improvement and redirection. She insists that rejection does not equate to failure but rather indicates areas for refinement or different avenues to explore.

“The chances of being rejected are quite high. However, rejection is a doorway,” she states (47:09).

Her advice includes attending industry events, cold emailing, seeking feedback from established authors, and considering diversified publishing options like self-publishing and submissions to magazines or literary journals.

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Conclusion

As the episode draws to a close, Jemma reinforces the episode's core messages: the importance of authentic motivation, disciplined routine, and resilience in the face of setbacks. She encourages aspiring authors to embrace the challenges of writing as integral to personal and creative growth.

“Write the book in your style, even if you think they might not like it,” Jemma concludes (36:28), emphasizing that the act of writing is a fulfilling endeavor regardless of external validation.

Listeners are invited to engage further by sharing their own experiences and questions on social media and are encouraged to support Jemma's work by purchasing her book, "Person in Progress."

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• On Hidden Steps in Writing:

  “At first draft, I was really, really happy with. But from there, there were so many extra hidden steps that no one really talks about.” – Casey (01:10)

• On Choosing the Right Idea:

  “What is the topic or idea that you already could talk about all day? What is the thing that you think about the most?” – Casey (04:23)

• On Pitching the Book:

  “Who is the audience going to be? What is the plot line going to be? Who are the characters?” – Casey (12:06)

• On Writing Discipline:

  “Start where you feel most called to begin and most passionate to write about.” – Casey (41:20)

• On Overcoming Perfectionism:

  “Put those three chapters aside, put them in one document, and start chapter four in a new document.” – Casey (43:14)

• On Self-Doubt:

  “Why not you?” – Casey (45:54)

• On Rejection:

  “The chances of being rejected are quite high. However, rejection is a doorway.” – Casey (47:09)

• On Authentic Writing:

  “Write this book for yourself first, not for anybody else.” – Casey (35:10)

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Final Thoughts

Episode 291 of "The Psychology of Your 20s" serves as a beacon for young adults contemplating the arduous yet rewarding path of writing a book. Through her transparent narrative and strategic advice, Jemma Sbeg demystifies the authorship process, making it accessible and attainable. Whether you're an aspiring writer or simply curious about the creative process, this episode offers invaluable lessons on passion, perseverance, and personal authenticity in the pursuit of literary creation.

Transcript

[Alex]

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[Bailey]

Hello everybody. Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to the podcast. New listeners, old listeners, wherever you are in the world, it is so great to have you here. Back for another episode. As we of course break down the.

[Casey]

Psychology of our 20s, today's episode is.

[Bailey]

Going to be a little bit different.

[Casey]

We are not talking about, you know, something that every 20 something is going.

[Bailey]

To do, which I typically like to.

[Casey]

Center my episodes on. We're not even talking about psychology all that much.

[Bailey]

But of course there is still going.

[Casey]

To be an element of that. What we are talking about is my.

[Bailey]

New book, mainly the process by which.

[Casey]

I was able to write it.

[Bailey]

My book took me around four to.

[Casey]

Six months to write, to write the first draft. First draft I was really, really happy with. And then from there there was so.

[Bailey]

Many extra hidden steps that I think.

[Casey]

That no one really talks about when they say they want to write a.

[Bailey]

Book or when they're talking about authorship. I think we have this idea in our heads of like, okay, I'll write a book. I'll put everything into it.

[Casey]

It will, it will take me a couple months and then it will come out. And as soon as I'm done writing it, you know, the next shipment of books that are coming in that's going to have my name on it.

[Bailey]

It's such a secretive process almost. And I know that so many people.

[Casey]

Have on their bucket list on one.

[Bailey]

Of their huge life goals is to.

[Casey]

Write a novel, is to write a book. And having done it, having slugged through it, suffered through it, but also really.

[Bailey]

Enjoyed the process at times, I thought that this would be something interesting to.

[Casey]

Talk about and to also be able.

[Bailey]

To answ the questions that so many.

[Casey]

Of you have been asking me in.

[Bailey]

The lead up to person in Progress's release.

[Casey]

This is such a great opportunity when.

[Bailey]

This is fresh in my mind to.

[Casey]

Really talk about the secret ins and outs of book writing. So I know this episode, it might.

[Bailey]

Not necessarily appeal to everyone who is.

[Casey]

A longtime listener of the psychology of your 20s. But for those of you who it does, honestly, I find this stuff so fascinating.

[Bailey]

I listened to so many podcasts when.

[Casey]

I was writing my book about how to do this, so I thought I'd add my own tips to the story and to the wealth of information out there. If you've ever wanted to write a.

[Bailey]

Book, if it's something on your bucket list, if you are currently writing a.

[Casey]

Book, if you just want to understand.

[Bailey]

The artistic process a little bit more.

[Casey]

Maybe learn something, this episode is for you.

[Bailey]

I am so excited. We're going to cut the intro nice.

[Casey]

And short so we can get into.

[Bailey]

The nice, juicy stuff without further ado ado. Let's talk about how I wrote my.

[Drew]

Book Person in Progress.

[Casey]

Okay, so for.

[Bailey]

The last six months I have been.

[Casey]

Writing all of my thoughts and feelings about book writing in my notes app. I kind of always knew I wanted.

[Bailey]

To document this, which is great for.

[Casey]

Me now because all of my thoughts, it's all here. It's all ready to be shared.

[Bailey]

Let me start with explaining why I.

[Casey]

Knew I wanted to write a book, because I think that that why is really, really important. Neglected I want to remind you it's.

[Bailey]

Not that you want to write a book, you should want to write the book.

[Casey]

A specific book that you know needs to be written that you feel called to in your heart to put out there, that you feel like it just.

[Bailey]

Needs to be spoken. It needs to be written down. There is no other option going forward.

[Casey]

That does not involve you creating this thing.

[Bailey]

Here are some of the questions I.

[Casey]

Would ask myself or that you can.

[Bailey]

Ask yourself to understand what kind of.

[Casey]

Book is it it that you actually want to write? The biggest thing to notice is if you want to write a book, what.

[Bailey]

Is the thing that you already could.

[Casey]

Talk about all day?

[Bailey]

What is the thing that you think about the most? What is the topic idea conversation that.

[Drew]

You bring up with your friends all the time?

[Bailey]

What is the thing you feel like.

[Casey]

You can't not write about? What we're really getting to here is.

[Bailey]

Trying to find the direction in which.

[Casey]

You should be placing your efforts and.

[Bailey]

Trying almost to uncover the idea that.

[Casey]

I think we all have.

[Bailey]

All of us have a brilliant story.

[Casey]

That only we can tell. All of us have some kind of knowledge or lived experience with a topic.

[Bailey]

That hasn't been told before.

[Casey]

The thing is, it's about identifying that now. Another element of this is that there.

[Bailey]

Are some books that you might think.

[Casey]

You can write that you just shouldn't. And it feels strange because maybe you are sitting on a million idea and you're thinking, oh my gosh, I should really write this book, or someone should. But you have no motivation to begin. You have no idea what would happen with it. You have no storyline, nothing like that.

[Bailey]

That is either the start of a really great idea or it's a sign.

[Casey]

That that idea actually doesn't belong to you.

[Bailey]

So I heard this brilliant analogy by.

[Casey]

Elizabeth Gilbert, who we've interviewed on the podcast before, and she explains how ideas.

[Bailey]

We don't necessarily own them.

[Casey]

Before we create something, all we have is an idea. But until we put that idea into and make it into something tangible and we put it into fruition, anyone is welcome to come and take it. Anyone is welcome to have dibs to it. Essentially what she explains is that there.

[Bailey]

Are all these ideas that are kind.

[Casey]

Of existing around us and within the walls.

[Bailey]

There are all these stories that the.

[Casey]

Universe wants told, and they are going.

[Bailey]

To find the person, the universe, the spirits, whatever it is, the Roman gods.

[Casey]

The Greek gods, God in general.

[Bailey]

This force is going to find the person who is going to be able.

[Casey]

To execute that idea most succinctly and quickly.

[Bailey]

So if you have an idea for.

[Casey]

A book, but you really are actually just not that committed to it, it's okay to let that idea go and leave space for a better one or a more fresh, personal, interesting idea to you. Because perhaps that idea doesn't really belong to you. The reason I've put so much time into explaining this is because that happened to me.

[Bailey]

The initial book that I wanted to.

[Casey]

Write, I now realize was not my book I initially wanted to write.

[Bailey]

I had two ideas.

[Casey]

I initially wanted to essentially keep a journal for two years and then publish like certain journal entries as like an.

[Bailey]

Anthology or a collection of like the.

[Casey]

20 Something Diaries, which, if you follow me on Instagram, you'll know is something that I do over there. But I wanted to basically give people almost the ability to buy my diary with like handwritten entries in it on like a mass scale. A couple problems with that. I still think it's a good idea. And if someone else wants to do it, like, it's. It's not my idea anymore. Like, I'm not going to make that idea, so someone else is welcome to do it. I think the issue with that is.

[Bailey]

That it is quite vulnerable.

[Casey]

And it. What it made me realize is that I would end up writing in my journal, in my diary, as if there was already an audience there, as if someone was already perceiving everything that I'D written because I was already committed to the practice. I already journal basically every single day.

[Drew]

But at the point that I decided.

[Casey]

That those journals were going to be published, obviously that was going to completely.

[Bailey]

Disrupt the artistic and also the emotional.

[Casey]

And personal process of that practice. So that was the first idea and I realized, like, that's not going to work. The second idea was that I wanted to write this book called the Overachiever's.

[Bailey]

Guide to Doing Less.

[Casey]

And I wanted to talk about how through mistakes and errors and faults and flaws and this whole process, I have kind of learned to put less pressure on myself.

[Bailey]

And I know that there are so.

[Casey]

Many individuals out there who are very.

[Bailey]

Type A and who were raised as.

[Casey]

Gifted overachievers who to this day struggle with this idea that their output is their entire worth. And I really wanted to write a self help book, I guess, debunking that.

[Bailey]

Idea and providing like tangible, practical ways.

[Casey]

To recenter your life on things that.

[Bailey]

You actually enjoy and that bring you.

[Casey]

Joy rather than on what seems impressive for other people, people, how hard you can work, how much you can push yourself. So those were two ideas that I had before I decided to write Person in Progress.

[Bailey]

And I am fully okay with the.

[Casey]

Fact that yes, those may have been great ideas, but that was not the book that I was being called to write.

[Bailey]

The book that I was being called.

[Casey]

To write was this book was Person in Progress. This is how I figured that out. I figured it out because it was.

[Bailey]

What I was already obsessed with.

[Casey]

And I was actually already writing about the podcast, the psychology of your 20s. Like those episodes could have made a novel. And something that not many people know is that actually most of these episodes are scripted and that requires me to write, you know, somewhere, anywhere between 4,000.

[Bailey]

To 7,000 words for every single script. And I was doing that like happily.

[Casey]

I was so involved in that process of writing my scripts, two a week, sometimes 10,000, 12,000, 13,000 words, that I kind of took a step back and was like, oh, I'm already writing this book. I'm writing this book just in a different form. So what's the challenge going to be?

[Bailey]

What's the big difference? Like, this is the book that I'm.

[Casey]

Being called to write. The other thing was that I could not stop taking notes of everything around me that I was almost already committed to putting in the book. Let me explain that. So I remember specifically there's a story in the book of one of my friends and she previously had like the.

[Bailey]

Most terrible workplace and she had a Terrible boss.

[Casey]

And it was just an awful experience. And I remember hearing that story and talking it through with her and getting really, really involved. And then a part of me was like, wow. Like, that would be a great part of this book. Like, someone could even write a whole book around this. And I. And I wrote down her story, obviously with her permission. And there were so many other instances like that, like friends, breakups, things I was learning in my own life, things.

[Bailey]

I was noticing in the news.

[Casey]

It felt like the structure was being built by those very ideas, and I just had to kind of fill in the blanks and be committed to making it coherent.

[Bailey]

So this is my first big piece of advice. If you want to write a book.

[Casey]

The idea should almost feel natural to you.

[Bailey]

It should feel like already in your mind, already in what you are noticing in the notes that you are jotting.

[Casey]

Down, you're already committed to writing this book. Like, you are already doing research.

[Bailey]

You are already on the lookout for things that will contribute to this story that you know needs to be told.

[Casey]

That has not been told yet. The next thing I want to talk about, which no one talks about, is.

[Bailey]

How to write a pitch. So there's kind of two ways that.

[Casey]

You go about writing a book.

[Bailey]

Either you write the whole book, you.

[Casey]

Write the whole manuscript, and then you start looking for a publisher, or you.

[Bailey]

Have the idea, and before you write.

[Casey]

It, you pitch it to publishing houses and see if they'll give you an.

[Bailey]

Advance and see if they'll find you a slot.

[Casey]

So a slot is basically the time in the year when your book is going to be released.

[Bailey]

So something that no one told me.

[Casey]

Before I started writing a book is that publishers obviously cannot flood the market.

[Bailey]

With every single book that is proposed.

[Alex]

To them, pitched to them.

[Bailey]

But also with every single book that.

[Casey]

They are even working on, you know, they have to kind of stagnate.

[Bailey]

What's it called?

[Casey]

Like, stagger. They have to kind of stagger their release.

[Bailey]

And so they are looking out for.

[Casey]

Books that are going to fill certain slots in their roster.

[Bailey]

Most publishing houses, they know what books.

[Casey]

They'Re going to be publishing two years in advance. They know what book's going to be coming out in April 2027. That book is already being written right now. And so even if you haven't written.

[Bailey]

The book yet, they are constantly looking.

[Casey]

For amazing ideas and stories that could fill those slots. So if you go that route, what.

[Bailey]

You need to do is write a pitch. This is exactly what a pitch is going to involve.

[Casey]

It's going to Involve a small section about you, about your experience, about your.

[Bailey]

Background, about anything that you think is relevant to why you are writing the story.

[Casey]

Perhaps if you are writing a scientific.

[Bailey]

Or a health based book, or a self improvement book, or a psychology book.

[Casey]

You know, you want to say I have a bit of credibility. So I have a degree, I have.

[Bailey]

Worked in this space, yada, yada, yada. Maybe if you're a writing a fiction.

[Casey]

Book, you want to say, well, this is where I've had pieces published before, that kind of stuff. A little bit of an about me section.

[Bailey]

Then you want a section that is about the book. Who is the audience going to be?

[Casey]

What is the plot line going to be?

[Bailey]

Who are the characters?

[Casey]

What's the story going to be based around? What are the major themes going to be?

[Bailey]

Why do you think people will read this book?

[Casey]

Maybe noticing certain trends, like if you're writing a romance book saying, well look, this is the romance industry, it's absolutely thriving. Like this is where I see my.

[Bailey]

Book fitting in here.

[Casey]

Basically selling your book and saying, you're gonna make money off of this hopefully.

[Bailey]

Here's why, here is exactly why and.

[Casey]

Exactly who was going to buy it then. Typically you're going to want to give kind of a section outline, a story outline. For me, obviously I wrote a non.

[Bailey]

Fiction book, so I wrote a chapter.

[Casey]

Outline that will change. But it's basically just like I've thought about this enough to have something that I can give you to show that.

[Bailey]

I'm prepared to put effort into this.

[Casey]

And I'm prepared to watch this evolve. So I did like a. I basically.

[Bailey]

Just gave them my table of contents.

[Casey]

What I expected my table of contents to be. And then I wrote two sample chapters, two sample chapters that I basically was.

[Bailey]

Like, I believe these will end up.

[Casey]

In the final manuscript.

[Bailey]

And they did end up in the.

[Casey]

Final manuscript, obviously deeply changed and edited.

[Bailey]

But the overall theme of them was the same. And that's an important component of this.

[Casey]

Because again, they want to know your tone. They also want to know that you're a good writer. They want to know that, yeah, you're going to be capable of creating something that they actually think is worthy of reading. Worthy in their minds. Personally, I think anything that you've written is worthy of reading and rereading and changing, even if no one else is buying it. Like it's still a beautiful process just to write something and create something, even.

[Bailey]

If no one ends up buying it.

[Casey]

But what they're looking for is sometimes a specific way of writing or A specific. Yeah, a specific tone, a specific process that they have kind of seen work.

[Bailey]

For them in the past.

[Casey]

I don't really know if I can give you any further detail about that, because I think I just went into it being like, this is what I would want to read. This is how. This is my writing style. So I'm just going to write these chapters the way that I would do it if no one was watching. And luckily for me, they really, really liked them. If, of course, perhaps you're writing a fiction book you might like.

[Bailey]

For me, it was very easy to.

[Casey]

Do two chapters because they were, I.

[Bailey]

Think, 15 pages each.

[Casey]

So 30 pages in total of my book. And, like, all the chapters are distinct.

[Bailey]

Right.

[Casey]

So, like, if I was to show.

[Bailey]

You the table of contents, if you.

[Casey]

Have the book, like, you'll know that each chapter is its own package, kind of. If you're writing a fiction book, it might be a little bit different. You might have to flesh out the storyline a little bit more, perhaps provide the first few chapters, like the first, you know, the first critical part of the book before they say, yes, we want you to write this.

[Bailey]

That is how to write a pitch. You are then welcome to find people's emails. Maybe you find an agent. I had an agent, which I was.

[Casey]

Very lucky to have through, like, previous relationships that I had. Basically, I said to the person who manages my podcast, like, I really want.

[Bailey]

To write a book. And she was like, I'll get you in touch with a friend.

[Casey]

His name was Dan.

[Bailey]

He works for uta.

[Casey]

And he basically, like, handled a lot of this for me.

[Bailey]

So I can't say that I'm an.

[Casey]

Expert in this part, but essentially what I believed he did was send that.

[Bailey]

Pitch to a bunch of people in the industry who he knew.

[Casey]

And then there was kind of you.

[Bailey]

Basically, it's called taking it to market.

[Casey]

And then people bid on your book. If you're lucky enough to have multiple.

[Bailey]

People interested, sometimes you might just have.

[Casey]

One person interested and they go, yep, we love this book.

[Drew]

We'll buy the rights.

[Bailey]

This is how much we'll offer you.

[Casey]

Maybe they'll only offer you royalties, whatever it is the deal that you're getting. Or you might have multiple people, which is just like, so amazing if you do and so incredible. Literally, someone just reading your manuscript is already a huge success.

[Bailey]

One person, by wanting to buy your.

[Casey]

Book, is an even bigger success.

[Bailey]

Two people wanting to buy your book is just insane.

[Casey]

So that is something that some people encounter where there's.

[Bailey]

They've taken it to market there's kind.

[Casey]

Of a bidding war and the people, the publishing houses will say, well, this.

[Bailey]

Is what we can offer you if you publish with us.

[Casey]

There is also the opportunity to self publish, to say, okay, I'm going to put a grand, two grand, which is a lot of money, but however much you're willing to put into it, to make copies of this book myself and to get them printed at a local printer and then to go into bookstores.

[Bailey]

And say, hey, I'm a local author.

[Casey]

Will you stock my book?

[Bailey]

And you know what, there have been some incredible success stories from people doing this.

[Casey]

I don't know if anyone knows this. I guess it's a novel, this book.

[Bailey]

It's called the Diary of an Oxygen Thief.

[Casey]

That book, I remember it being huge.

[Bailey]

And it's like a very gripping story.

[Casey]

The anonymous author of that book actually, you know, managed to get a full time retailer and a full time publisher.

[Bailey]

From initially pitching it to local bookstores.

[Casey]

Who were like, yeah, we'll buy a couple copies and we'll sell them. And then they couldn't keep them because people were like, wow, this is such a good book.

[Bailey]

And we're recommending it to their friends. So there are so many routes through.

[Casey]

Which you can do this.

[Bailey]

That aside, let's now talk about how to actually write a book, how to actually get to that 70,000, 80,000, 90,000.

[Casey]

Word limit and enjoy the process because.

[Bailey]

I know this is going to sound dramatic. Writing a book is like birthing a child. Quite literally, you spend more time with.

[Casey]

That book than someone spends with a child in their womb. Like it takes so many months.

[Bailey]

It is a labor of love. But there are also some tips and.

[Casey]

Tricks and practices that make it a lot easier and that make it something that you actually feel quite fulfilled by. So we are going to take a short break, but when we return, let.

[Bailey]

Me give you my five best tips.

[Casey]

For the very act of writing your dream novel.

[Alex]

Have finals got you cramming, stressing, freaking out?

[Casey]

ChatGPT has got your back.

[Alex]

From now through May, ChatGPT plus is free for all college students. So there are no limits on all the amazing ways you can ask ChatGPT to help you get things done. It can make a multiple choice quiz from your organic chem notes, give you easy ways to get over writer's block, visualize the global supply chain as anime, maybe even create a festival schedule for Paris when your finals are over. There are so many possibilities abilities. ChatGPT plus free for college students through May. Restrictions apply.

[Casey]

Okay, so I have five Pretty large.

[Bailey]

Tips, five pretty broad tips for you.

[Casey]

On how to write a book.

[Bailey]

So most books that you read are, unless it's like a short story, like.

[Casey]

A Claire Keegan kind of book, is probably going to be above 65, 000 words. I think that was my minimum word.

[Bailey]

Count for my book.

[Casey]

It ended up being, I think, around 85,000. But by that stage, like, I was on a roll, like, there was no stopping me. I genuinely think at one point my publisher was like, please, please stop writing so much. Like, some of this is garbage. Maybe they would deny that. But yes, there is a certain word limit that you want to get to.

[Bailey]

In order to get to that word.

[Casey]

Limit, the first thing that you need to do is think before you write, but not too deeply.

[Bailey]

Basically what I mean by that is have some vague idea of where your story, where your novel, where your book.

[Casey]

Is going to go.

[Bailey]

Don't just expect that you can sit.

[Casey]

Down and say, I've had this great idea.

[Bailey]

Check.

[Casey]

I know I need to write this book.

[Bailey]

Check.

[Casey]

I feel like it's writing itself. Check. At some point, that book is going to stop writing itself and you are going to have to push hard. Like I explained it to a friend recently is anyone who's ever written a book has gotten to this, like, large chasm, this large, like, empty space where.

[Bailey]

You'Re on one side and where you.

[Casey]

Want to go is the other side.

[Bailey]

And you have to find a way.

[Casey]

To ferry your book or get your book over that large space in between. However you do it, it's a metaphor. You jump, you build a bridge, you find a detour. Like, there is going to be a difficult.

[Bailey]

You can kind of avoid the difficulty.

[Casey]

Of that snag by having some premeditated idea of where you think your story is going to go. So for me, I, like I explained.

[Bailey]

Had that entire chapter outlined.

[Casey]

So the day I started writing my.

[Bailey]

Book, which was January 28, 2023.

[Casey]

Yeah, January 28, 2023.

[Bailey]

I remember I'd just gotten back from Japan.

[Casey]

Like, I knew what I had to write and I knew how much of.

[Bailey]

The book I needed to write every.

[Casey]

Single week and month in order to get to my deadline. So my publisher had set a deadline.

[Bailey]

And also set a personal deadline. That is something I would really encourage you to do if you are committed to writing a book.

[Casey]

You can't just say, I'm going to write a book because. And not give that an end date because you probably won't do it. It's like saying, having vague idea of, like, I Want to get fit, I want to get healthy. When, how, with who, whereabouts.

[Bailey]

Like, you need to create structure around what is a huge endeavor and a huge goal.

[Casey]

I would say you need at least four months to write a book if you have. And a lot of us have full time jobs. Like, I obviously was still running the podcast as my full time job alongside writing the book. Like four months is a, is a push. Anywhere between four to 12 months.

[Bailey]

No more than 12 months though, because suddenly that becomes something that you can.

[Casey]

Delay and something that you can kind of put off. I think the sweet spot is around six to seven months. That's kind of where you have enough.

[Bailey]

Of the urgency to write and to be actively involved in the writing process.

[Casey]

But not enough urgency that you feel.

[Bailey]

Stressed out by this process and you feel stressed out by the end date. Knowing I had a deadline in mind.

[Casey]

Was really, really important for me. And it kind of leads me to tip number two, which is to create and commit to a routine.

[Bailey]

Commit to a routine that is X number of chapters per day, per week, per month, maybe a specific time in the day when you will sit down.

[Casey]

And write four, two hours.

[Bailey]

For me, I did three days a.

[Casey]

Week where my only job was to write. So I would do Sundays. Monday and Tuesdays were my writing days, and then Wednesdays, Thursday, Fridays, and then the first half of Saturday was like when I would work. And I found that really, really worked for me because it allowed me to kind of compartmentalize and keep the two distinct things that I was doing separate.

[Bailey]

Because they also were kind of similar.

[Casey]

So I just felt like it would.

[Bailey]

Be very easy if I hadn't done.

[Casey]

That, to flick from one to the.

[Bailey]

Other to one to the other and.

[Casey]

Feel like I was losing my mind. That's how I structured it. I. I know people do it differently. There's a very famous writer called Murakami. I'm. What's. What's some of the stuff that he's written? Oh, I cannot remember men talking about women, I think is maybe one of them. He just look him up.

[Bailey]

He's written some fantastic things.

[Casey]

Like, it's escaping my mind right now, but my dad was telling me how when this man is committed to writing a new novel, how he does it.

[Bailey]

Is that he's really into running, right? And he uses running as a reward.

[Casey]

So he says I have to write.

[Bailey]

15 pages before I'm allowed to run. That kind of positive reinforcement. Reward cycle is something that really works.

[Casey]

For people saying, okay, well, I'm not going to go see my friends. Until I've done my A Thousand words for the day, until I've done my chapter for the week, I can't go out on a Saturday unless this is done. I know that feels quite clinical and.

[Bailey]

Disciplined and maybe that's not how you.

[Casey]

See storytelling and story writing. And obviously this is just my perspective. So you can do it however you want. But I will say having that kind of discipline is something that maybe we're missing a little bit. Think about the time when you were most productive in your life. It was probably when you were in primary school or high school, like or in college.

[Bailey]

When you had structures to your day.

[Casey]

You had timelines, you had end dates and deadlines and goals that you had to meet.

[Bailey]

You were able to manage so many things because you provided your brain with a goal based environment and a goal.

[Casey]

Winning structure in which it can operate easier. The other thing is that writing a book is still fun, right? For all the discussions around creating a routine and being disciplined in commitment and blah blah, blah.

[Bailey]

It's just that it's a unique kind.

[Casey]

Of fun called type 2 fun.

[Bailey]

So someone explained this to me the other day.

[Casey]

There are three different types of fun. Type 1 fun, type 2 fun, type 3 fun. So type 1 fun is stuff that's just always going to be a blast, like a trampoline park, like a comedy show. Like things that are just innately enjoyable.

[Bailey]

Without requiring too much effort from you. Type 2 fun is the kind of.

[Casey]

Fun that writing a book is or running a marathon. It's not, not necessarily all that fun when you're doing it, but it's fun.

[Bailey]

At various points when you can look back and see how far you've come, or see the outcome of your hard.

[Casey]

Work, or get to read what you've written. Type 3 fun is just not fun at all, right? Type 3 fun is the kind of fun that none of us really want to get into. Hiking Everest. Like ending up doing things that are very, very dangerous or going to actually leave you very scared, lonely, incapable.

[Bailey]

They're not even fun in hindsight. Like there was the potential for type.

[Casey]

2 fun, but that potential wasn't there. Lean into the type 2 fun of this moment.

[Bailey]

Yes, writing a book is hard. If it wasn't hard, everyone would be doing it.

[Casey]

There is a reason that not everyone writes books that's also a really enjoyable.

[Bailey]

And romantic part of the process.

[Casey]

I think it is quite beautiful that.

[Bailey]

You are committing your brain and your.

[Casey]

Body and your mind and your soul to. Not a sprint, a marathon of creativity.

[Bailey]

Knowing that you're unsure of the outcome.

[Casey]

But knowing even more so that this.

[Bailey]

Is something that you need to do.

[Casey]

I will also say write at your.

[Bailey]

Best times, not at the ideal time.

[Casey]

So I definitely feel that there is.

[Bailey]

This pull and sense that we need to do our work during business hours.

[Casey]

Even if what your work is is completely self driven and self motivated. Like if you're writing a novel you need to be writing between 9 to that's delusional. Not everyone like the whole 9 to.

[Bailey]

5 system is quite delusional.

[Casey]

The fact that everyone thinks our peak.

[Drew]

Operating times is during such a limited.

[Casey]

Period of hours is ridiculous.

[Bailey]

Every single one of us actually has.

[Casey]

Our own unique circadian and cortisol and arousal rhythm and we also have our.

[Bailey]

Peak attention and peak performance times that.

[Casey]

Are going to occur at unique points in the day that probably differ from most other people. For me, writing at 9pm oh my God, it was like the words were fire. It was like I could not stop this, these thoughts from like pouring out of me. Writing at 10am when everyone was suggesting I should be at my peak productivity. It was miserable. Like I genuinely felt like I could.

[Bailey]

Not keep keep my eyes open.

[Casey]

I think I ended up realizing that.

[Bailey]

The best times for me to write.

[Casey]

Were between 7 to 9am, 2 to 5pm and 9 to 11pm Obviously that's only six hours. There were times when I did have.

[Bailey]

To push myself during those days that.

[Casey]

I was writing, but if I had.

[Bailey]

The option to do other things during that time, you best believe I was.

[Casey]

Taking them because I just knew that I was better well spent on doing.

[Bailey]

Some of these other less intense tasks.

[Casey]

During this time than doing them when they were perhaps more expected. Like in the morning or the evening when I was going to be more primed for writing.

[Bailey]

So pay attention to when you feel.

[Casey]

Most invigorated by your book.

[Bailey]

You feel most in a flow state.

[Casey]

You feel like the whole process is.

[Drew]

A lot more effortless.

[Bailey]

I will also say adventure in between.

[Casey]

Times where you are really committed to writing.

[Bailey]

So whether that means taking your writing to a retreat, going out of town for a little bit, booking a secluded Airbnb by yourself and just committing to.

[Casey]

Riding for the weekend and then in.

[Bailey]

Between sessions, going for nature walks, going outdoors, going to wineries, seeing friends.

[Casey]

Our brain thrives on novelty and newness. And especially those of us with a.

[Bailey]

Creative mind, we need more of that than the average person. That novelty and newness is how your brain creates new connections. It's also how it creates new ideas and how it turns abstract thinking into Concrete thinking into creative thinking. You know, someone who is sitting in.

[Casey]

A plain white room is not going to write anywhere near greater book as someone who is writing that same novel in the countryside or somewhere where there is stimulation and new experiences and new.

[Bailey]

Encounters and human interactions that can inspire them. So make sure you do not lose your need for novelty and freshness and adventure in the discipline and routine of writing a book. In fact, in fact, I think the.

[Casey]

More fun you have in between writing sessions, the better that book is actually going to end up being.

[Bailey]

This next tip is probably my favorite one and it is also the tip.

[Casey]

That I learned the hardest of all ways.

[Bailey]

And it is that sometimes you have to kill your darlings.

[Casey]

Sometimes you write something that you think is really, really good or that isn't.

[Bailey]

Actually that good, but it took so much of you to write it it.

[Casey]

That you think it deserves a place in your final manuscript.

[Bailey]

There was a particular chapter in person, in progress that did not make it.

[Casey]

To the final print edition that I spent two weeks on.

[Bailey]

Two weeks on one chapter and it didn't even make it. And here's the thing.

[Casey]

From the very beginning, I knew it.

[Bailey]

Was a bad chapter. I knew the flow wasn't there.

[Casey]

I knew the idea wasn't there. I knew the commitment wasn't there.

[Bailey]

I knew there was just nothing for.

[Casey]

Me in this chapter. It didn't belong in the book, but.

[Bailey]

I was forcing it and forcing it.

[Casey]

And I had to write it. And then when my editor was like.

[Bailey]

This is not a good chapter.

[Casey]

I'm going to cut it, I was like, you can't.

[Bailey]

Because that took so much for me. Even though I know it's not good.

[Casey]

It took so much for me.

[Bailey]

I don't regret writing it. I don't regret putting all my thoughts down onto the page because maybe it.

[Casey]

Could have turned out amazing, but at.

[Bailey]

Some stage you will have to kill.

[Casey]

Plot lines, kill characters, change characters, kill storylines, kill certain arcs because they just aren't working. You're going to have to kill your darlings.

[Bailey]

It is better to have had a first draft and to have committed to a bad idea and killed off that idea than committed to no idea at all. So if there is an instinct to.

[Casey]

Write something, even if it's difficult, still write it.

[Bailey]

You can always cut it and remove it.

[Casey]

And yes, it might feel like a.

[Bailey]

Loss, but it also means that the.

[Casey]

Better parts of your book speak loud. So don't be afraid to go back and say, yeah, this probably wasn't my best work.

[Bailey]

Something better is going to take this.

[Casey]

Chapter or this sentences or this storyline's place.

[Bailey]

Here are my two final tips.

[Casey]

This second last one is something we've already spoken about, but I want to really, really nail this point home. Write this book for you first, not for anybody else. What I mean by that is that when you are writing your novel, your.

[Bailey]

Book, there is a great deal of pressure and an instinct, I think, to constantly be ruminating and trying to dissect.

[Casey]

What you think the reader would want to read or hear or see happen next. There is an obsession with how this novel, this book, is going to be perceived.

[Bailey]

And that intense awareness of other people's.

[Casey]

Perception can mean that you write a book that is not actually in your own voice and not actually something that you actually wanted to write because you were so fearful of other people's disapproval. A bad book that you enjoyed writing and that sounds like you is better than an okay book that sounds like anyone else could have written it. And it's better than an okay book that everyone's like about.

[Bailey]

Write this book in your style, even.

[Casey]

If you think they might not like.

[Bailey]

It, even if you think there are decisions that you are making that they wouldn't make.

[Casey]

Like, this is your book. At the end of the day, you.

[Bailey]

Know, you could finish writing this manuscript and only one person could buy it.

[Casey]

And you actually haven't written the book.

[Bailey]

That you wanted to write. And then in the future, 20 years.

[Casey]

Down the line, when you dig up.

[Bailey]

An old copy and you find it and you're reading it, you're thinking, ugh.

[Casey]

Like, why did I do that?

[Bailey]

Why did I try and sound so smart? Why did I try and sound so pretentious?

[Casey]

Why did I use words I didn't know?

[Bailey]

Why did I say things I didn't actually believe in?

[Casey]

Oh, it was because of this arbitrary ghost, like, amalgamation of a reader who.

[Bailey]

I don't even know or care about.

[Casey]

But whose fantasy opinion I was gearing towards.

[Bailey]

This is your book. The act of writing it in itself.

[Casey]

Is a healing, beautiful, sacred practice. Who cares if no one likes it, if you like it, if you had fun writing it, that is all that matters.

[Bailey]

I would also call you to constantly reflect on the why. Like I said, there will come a point where there is a chasm, there is a drop off, there is a space that you have to bridge to get to the other side of writing.

[Casey]

This piece of work. The thing that will actually really help you get there is, why do I actually want to write this?

[Bailey]

What is my intrinsic motivation for producing this piece of work?

[Casey]

Work I can't give you that motivation. I can't give you the answer to that question. There are a few different whys. Maybe you're wise that this is a story that you feel needs to be on a page for you to have closure.

[Bailey]

Maybe you're wise that this is the book that you wish that you had and you wish that you would read.

[Casey]

Maybe your why is that you are.

[Bailey]

Just so endlessly fascinated by the story.

[Casey]

Or that you've always wanted to be.

[Bailey]

A writer and this feels part of your destiny. We're all going to have a different motivation.

[Casey]

Make sure you are clear on what yours is and make sure you continuously reflect on it. For me, my why was this is the book that I really needed and.

[Bailey]

I wish that people had been more honest about certain topics that went into the book.

[Casey]

I didn't really find that honesty in anything else.

[Bailey]

I was reading my other why was that?

[Casey]

I was doing it for my future self.

[Bailey]

You know, since I was a child, I really wanted to be a writer.

[Casey]

And I really wanted to be an author. But I also knew that that my older self really would have wanted to know what I was thinking and feeling at this point in my life. And although I didn't end up using that diary idea I was talking about at the beginning, Person in Progress is.

[Bailey]

It's not biographical, but there definitely are biographical elements to it and stories that.

[Casey]

I think my future self would really get a kick out of reading. And I think that this was an.

[Bailey]

Endeavor that I knew was always going to be worthwhile even if no one bought it.

[Casey]

Because I would have the opportunity to say I did that I did the hard thing. I wrote a book. At some stage in my life I had enough good thoughts, or at least what I thought were good thoughts to put 85,000 words down on a page and print it off and if nothing else, give it to family and friends.

[Bailey]

So that was my long standing motivation.

[Drew]

Okay, we are going to take a.

[Casey]

Short break, but when we return I.

[Bailey]

Want to answer some of the questions.

[Drew]

You guys asked me over on Instagram about how to write a book.

[Casey]

Very, very simple question, the one we've.

[Drew]

Been talking about entire time.

[Casey]

But I wanted to hear from you.

[Drew]

Guys and your specific questions. So stay tuned.

[Alex]

Have finals got you cramming, stressing, freaking out.

[Casey]

ChatGPT has got your back.

[Alex]

From now through May, Chat GBT plus is free for all college students. So there are no limits on all the amazing ways you can ask ChatGPT to help you get things done. It can make a multiple choice quiz from your organic chem nodes give you easy ways to get over writer's block. Visualize the global supply chain as anime. Maybe even create a festival schedule for Paris when your finals are over. There are so many possibilities. ChatGPT plus free for college students through May restrictions apply.

[Casey]

Okay, so you guys know this is.

[Bailey]

A new thing that we're doing where.

[Drew]

I get you guys to ask your questions about any episodes or ideas that.

[Bailey]

We are discussing and today.

[Drew]

Okay, the questions had to do with the act and the process of writing.

[Bailey]

This first question comes from Lauren.

[Drew]

How do you know where to start? Now? I think for me, that was quite easy. I did initially start with the first chapter. However, as I went along, I started jumping between sections. So Person in Progress has four sections. Each of them are very different from the last. One of them's about work. One of them is about relationships. One of them's about healing. One of them's about everyday 20 something experiences. I would just choose the chapter that I felt I most wanted to write that day until I ended up at the chapter at the very end that.

[Casey]

I least wanted to write, which ended up being the one on heartbreak.

[Drew]

But how I would answer this question is that where you need to start.

[Casey]

Is where you feel most called to start and most passionate to write about.

[Bailey]

What is the chapter, the section, the.

[Drew]

Component of the book that you feel most exhilarated by? You know, I heard about this author through my friend Alex actually, who runs Basic Book Club.

[Casey]

And she was telling me how one.

[Drew]

Of these authors, and she was telling.

[Casey]

Me that one of the authors of.

[Drew]

Her favorite book actually started writing the.

[Casey]

Book at the end, like at, like.

[Drew]

In the last three chapters. So the last chapters that we read, when we read that book were the first chapters she wrote because the story.

[Casey]

She was telling, the reason she wanted.

[Drew]

To tell it was because it had a specific ending that she really wanted to capture. And then she worked backwards from there.

[Casey]

Some people like to begin at the very beginning.

[Drew]

I don't think that's necessarily always the.

[Bailey]

Best way for everyone.

[Drew]

Start where you feel most called to begin.

[Casey]

And if you don't know where to.

[Drew]

Start, start by just fleshing out some key ideas. Start by maybe even writing a mini chapter from someone else's perspective on the main character and what they look like.

[Casey]

Someone once gave me this brilliant writing exercise.

[Drew]

If you want to flesh out your main character or a character in your book more, imagine what someone would see know about them from encountering them in a coffee shop.

[Casey]

So write a mini chapter from the.

[Drew]

Perspective of a Third party, watching, learning, looking at your main character.

[Casey]

It might not end up in the.

[Drew]

Book, it probably won't end up in the book, but it will give you more of a. An idea of where to go from there and more of an inspiration. This next question. I love how to finish a draft. I just keep rewriting the first three chapters.

[Bailey]

Oof.

[Drew]

I totally get this. If you're a bit of a perfectionist like myself, it can feel like you cannot move on from a chapter unless it is up to your incredibly high standards. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. I think it shows care and love and appreciation for your work. However, I do understand that it's frustrating.

[Casey]

And that if you have a book.

[Drew]

That'S going to end up being 30 chapters and you've only written three, you kind of want to get the ball rolling.

[Casey]

My book biggest tip for this is.

[Drew]

To put those three chapters aside, put them in one document, start chapter four.

[Casey]

In a new document so that there.

[Drew]

Is not the pressure or the kind of urge to go back and scroll up a little bit and just start changing words here and there, or, you know, finding synonyms or antonyms for this word or that word, or changing very, very minor things. Pretend that you are starting the book.

[Casey]

From chapter four and start writing it from there.

[Drew]

Another great way to basically force yourself to write, to put on a 15 minute timer or a 20 minute timer and say, this does not have to be good, this doesn't have to even be comprehensible. I'm just going to write for 15 minutes and see what comes up and see what flows through me. I think the roadblock that you are facing is one of perfectionism and I also think it's one of a fear of failure, which often they go hand in hand. Giving yourself space and room for whatever you're writing. To be imperfect, maybe not that great, will also provide you with a lot of freedom to just make mistakes and to make creative errors that actually end up being creative doorways. Here's our next question. I've always wanted to write, but I feel like no one cares about what.

[Casey]

I have to say.

[Drew]

This is kind of similar to this question from Ella. How do you push through imposter syndrome? Will anyone read this?

[Bailey]

Maybe no one will read it.

[Drew]

I do think people will read it. Firstly, I will say that, but maybe they won't. My question is, why is that a bad thing? Why is it that every single form of creation has to receive outside acknowledgment and can't just be for our own.

[Casey]

For, you know, the sake of it.

[Drew]

For our own internal pleasure and enjoyment of the activity. That aside, because I know that's quite a nihilistic view of things and quite a pessimistic view and maybe not for everyone.

[Casey]

If you are thinking, why should I write a book?

[Drew]

No one cares what I have to say.

[Bailey]

No one cares what anyone has to.

[Drew]

Say until they say it. The question I always like to ask.

[Casey]

People is why not you? Genuinely, why not you?

[Drew]

And you might come up with a couple of reasons. All of those reasons are your self.

[Casey]

Doubt trying to sabotage you.

[Drew]

And when self doubt tries to sabotage you, it's actually trying to protect you. It doesn't want you to get hurt, it doesn't want you to feel embarrassed, it doesn't want you to feel rejected. And so it will keep you in the safest place, which is the place.

[Casey]

Where you are doing nothing.

[Drew]

Every single person I think who has written a book has thought, and I've definitely thought this, like, why am I doing this? No one cares what I have to say. No one's gonna buy a copy. Everyone's going to hate it. And then I just remind myself that if that's the case, I still got.

[Casey]

So much out of it up up until this point and, and everyone had.

[Drew]

To write their first draft. Everyone had to put out their first book. Every single person, every single author that you admire has had those same thoughts. And they still were committed to writing.

[Casey]

It when they were a nobody, when no one knew who they were.

[Drew]

And their novels, their books, their manuscripts ended up changing lives. So I hope that helps you feel better about either alternative. So this final question is, was actually a really, really common one. How do you go about getting a publisher slash agent? What's the process like and what are the chances of being rejected?

[Casey]

All right, I'm not gonna lie.

[Drew]

The chances of being rejected are quite high. However, rejection is a doorway. Rejection is redirection. Rejection is a mirror. Rejection is a motivator. Rejection is not something to be afraid of. Here's the other thing. You can get rejected by the same publishing house like six or seven times times. Like they might say, go away, fix.

[Casey]

This, bring it back. We still don't like it.

[Drew]

Go away, fix this, bring it back. Just because something was rejected in its current form doesn't mean it's going to be rejected again.

[Casey]

Doesn't mean it's going to be rejected by someone else.

[Drew]

There have been so many examples of authors who have gone on to write incredible books who have been rejected many, many times. And I'm sure those publishing houses were sitting there being like, oh, we really, we really screwed up. We really dropped the ball on that one. As long as you believe in yourself, I know that you are going to work hard and you are going to find new avenues to get your work out there. When it comes to finding a publisher, a couple of tips that I would give is go to heaps of industry events, cold email, ask other established authors or people that you know who have written books to read your manuscript. Try not to focus on needing a publisher to write. Just write the thing. I do feel like having a book that's already written is perhaps a selling point because they can tell if they like it or not and they can kind of get a sense of where they might want to take that initial draft. And remember, there are so many ways to be published. I'd also say start submitting chapters to magazines, to journals, to literary magazines as well. Just try and get your work out there and know that the right people will find it.

[Casey]

It might just not be your time now.

[Drew]

It doesn't mean that your time isn't going to come. I think that's all we have time for today.

[Bailey]

Thank you so much, all of you.

[Drew]

For being so invested as to make it this far into the episode. If you did make it this far, I want you to leave the name of the book that has changed your life. What is the book that you are.

[Casey]

So glad someone someone wrote and then.

[Drew]

It feels like they wrote it just for you? Because honestly, I need some reading recommendations.

[Bailey]

I am so sick of reading my own book.

[Drew]

It feels like all I do is read my own book. Like, I read it at events and.

[Casey]

I read it online and I read it out loud and I read it.

[Drew]

For the audiobook and I'm like, I'm sick of you. I don't want to look at you anymore. Just kidding. I love her so much, but I'm ready to read something else. Inspiring. I'm ready for a palette cleanser. I'm ready just to feel, feel, you.

[Casey]

Know, I'm ready just to see what.

[Drew]

Is going on in other people's brains as delivered through their words. So leave a comment below and share this episode with someone who you believe might need it, might enjoy it, might.

[Bailey]

Love it, might appreciate these tips. Make sure you're following me on Instagram.

[Drew]

That psychology podcast to ask future questions for future episodes. Finally, I can't leave without saying this. If you have the means, please consider buying a copy of Person in Progress. It would be be greatly appreciated until next time. Stay safe, be kind, be gentle with yourself, and we will talk very, very soon.

[Alex]

Finals can be such a disorientating time.

[Drew]

Your schedule is out of whack.

[Alex]

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