← The Psychology of your 20s
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Soledad O'Brien
I'm Soledad o' Brien and on my new true crime podcast Murder on the Towpath, I'm taking you back to 1964 to the cold case of artist Mary Pinchot Meyer.
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She had been shot twice in the.
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Head and in the back. It turns out Mary was connected to a very powerful man.
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I pledge you that we shall neither commit nor provoke aggression.
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Foreign.
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Psychology Podcast Host
Welcome Back to the show.
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Psychology Podcast Host
New listeners, old listeners, wherever you are in the world, it is so great to have you here back for another episode as we of course break down the psychology of our 20s. I'm sitting here in the studio with my dog, actually, for those of you who don't know, I foster failed. I have a dog now. Big Life updates on that one. But I've been getting warmer up for this topic because it is going to be a supreme deep dive into what is slowly becoming, I would say, a defining but also exhausting part of modern dating in our twenties. That is the talking stage. That kind of murky, unlabeled limbo where you're messaging someone like every single day. You're flirting, you're sharing things, but you're not dating. Maybe you haven't even met in person yet. You're not really sure where things are going or if they're going anywhere at all yet. It's this strange thing where this person has become part of your daily life. You're kind of expecting things from them. So why do we even have a talking stage and why has it become so psychologically intense? As of recent, we're going to break down the psychology behind this today. Specifically, what makes a talking stage so compelling? Why do we get attached without even knowing someone? How do we protect ourselves from emotionally investing in people that we are interested in while still being open to communicating? Lots of big questions there. We're also going to look at the personality traits of people who extend and love a prolonged talking stage. Perhaps the people you should be avoiding and the role of certain traits like commitment, readiness, intermittent reinforcement. And also, this is a big message for this episode. Why playing games Game playing in the talking stage is basically going to instantaneously mean that you are not going to be in a relationship with that person. We need to be pursuing authenticity, especially in this current dating environment where, you know, dating apps give us the illusion of endless choices and endless possibilities and no one wants to commit, no one wants to go on dates. Being authentic and direct about what you want is the only way. So if you have ever felt stuck in a never ending talking stage, you are not alone. I have been there, done that, got the T shirt, as have many other people in their 20s. But we're going to unpack it today. All of the psychology, as well as a little bit of a guide to getting through the talking stage, how to find closure when the talking stage perhaps ends, and my hard and fast rules for exactly how long you should be chatting with someone before you go on a date. So with all of that in mind, stay with us. So I want to begin by kind of defining some parameters here. The talking stage, for me, I know it has a few different ways of being thought about, but for me, it is the stage before you officially go on a date. It's the lead up, it's the preamble. It may also sometimes last past the first, I would say two dates, if there is long gaps between when you are going on dates in which you are talking. But it's really that period where you're on each other's radar, but you're not consistently dating, you're not planning for dates, date one or date two or date three. So essentially the defining feature of a talking stage is you are spending the majority of your time communicating with them over messenger, over text online, and not much time making concrete plans or seeing each other in real life, which I think we can all agree is really preferable. Let's talk about this. Why do we even have a talking stage to begin with if most people's experience of it is awful and less than pleasant? Well, essentially, the talking stage is part of what we call our modern dating script. So the modern dating script is basically the storyline we all expect a romance to follow. It's the script that influences how you believe you should interact at certain times, what your timeline should be. And it kind of goes like this. You cross paths, you spend some time talking to figure each other out. Then you go on a date, go on a few more dates, wait a few months, make sure they're not seeing other people, make sure you're not seeing other people, and hopefully you end up in a relationship. During each stage or chapter of that, there are different ways of communicating and interacting with each other that we kind of pick up from media, culture, society at large. Of course, ending up in a relationship, most of us would be able to tell this is not always the case. At every stage of this script or this narrative, there is a way for things to get complicated. The talking stage is no different in some cultures and countries. Like, there is no talking stage. That's just not part of their dating script. You know, the only talking that gets done is asking someone to go out immediately. But it's definitely becoming a more prominent part of how we view dating. And actually, this generation, more than any other, take longer to decide if they want to date someone. A 2024 study, it was one of the first to really investigate the talking stage. It found that the talking stage is what they would call a new relationship construct. It is something that has really only emerged in the past 15 years, before 20, I think it was like 2010, 2012. The talking stage was not really part of our vocab. It wasn't really a term. It wasn't really part of the early dating period. The reason why people in this generation are spending more time in the talking stage is because this period allows us to assess compatibility. Yes, it does allow us to test if we have the same interests, if we communicate the same, if we have the spark, the. It does allow us to tell is this person a total asshole? But it's also being used to really protect us against pain and to also help us avoid the emotional sunk costs that would occur if we just dived in headfirst into a relationship that is typically what we think a talking stage is meant to help us do. But this same study really examined that an increase in the pool of potential partners has facilitated this rides in the talking stage. The main culprit being dating apps. People want to keep options open because this, you know, availability of other people is so much more obvious. It's. It's just this huge pressure that there is always going to be someone else out there who could potentially be better for you. So people want to keep options open. People want to not settle down as quickly or, you know, choose someone. And the paradox or irony of this is that normally they're actually missing out on the person who was right in front of them, who may be really great, because you keep thinking that someone better out there exists when the person that you were thinking of is completely made up. It's a classic example of the paradox of choice. We have too many options. Dating apps are creating the illusion of infinite possibilities that makes it harder for people to commit because it makes it makes the possibility of something better seem a lot more real. I think what's hard about this as well is that the talking stage and the emergence of this has only happened in the last 15 years. And yet we're still comparing our stories of dating to, like, the love stories of before. And we're also facing confusion from relatives and family members who have entirely different perspectives on dating from when they were finding love. And so the stigma feels very, very severe. But it's because our reality is just simply different. Our families don't understand. They think that dating is the way it was when they were getting to know people. And so we're facing this dual frustration of being like, well, I wish it was, but also it's not. So understand that this is just something we have to deal with. So this is what I believe. I'm going to give you a hard and fast rule here. I believe the talking stage should be entirely about information gathering and honesty, nothing more. I also think it should not last longer than one month. Maximum, Maximum. At one month, you've got to press pause or you've got to make plans asap. It's like when you go for a job and you have that initial interview to see if you vibe. That's what a date is meant to be. Not the talking stage. You know, imagine doing a job interview, but it was entirely over email. Like, you don't really get to know someone and you don't really get to know someone over just texting either. Like there's so many ways that they can create the illusion or a perception of who they are. You need to be on that, on that date. Like you need to be in person talking for real. You know, I get so frustrated at today's dating culture that is so quick to waste someone else's time in the name of getting to know someone without ever actually taking them on a date. Especially when you're secretly comparing them to other options that you have. You know, I know we don't want to regret our choice of romantic partner. It is a big and significant decision. It does determine a lot of our happiness. But how unfair, how unfair to just keep someone on the line and just keep chatting to them and never taking them on a date because what you're waiting for someone else to come along if you have to question it, if you have to question it before you've even met them in person, I think you have to give the other person the kindness of letting them go and letting them go and find someone who is 100% yes about just wanting to meet them and see where things go. Maybe not 100% yes about the relationship, but it's because you haven't gone on a date yet. Like the talking stage should only be about information. You are not meant to be making any decisions. The decisions should only be made based on the dates and the real life exposure you have. I truly just think we are just overthinking this. We're overthinking the talking stage. I see people in like three months, six months, sometimes even year long talking stages. And it's just like you're waiting for a caterpillar to turn into a butterfly and realizing the entire time that you had a stick. You know, that's what that feels like. There is a certain profile of individuals I See who I think really enjoy the extended talking stage more than others. And they often display the following traits. These are the people that if you don't like a long talking stage, like I do, like I don't. I'm sorry, I should say I don't like a long talking stage. I never have, I never will. This is who you need to look out for. Firstly, the first kind of person who loves a talking stage and never a date is someone who is low in a trait known as commitment readiness. So this was a trait first identified by a paper published in 2018. And the paper basically found that we all exist on a spectrum of either wanting or not wanting commitment. And at any point, we are somewhere on that scale between high commitment readiness, which means, like, you are ready to go, you are either in a committed relationship, or like the next person who comes along, you're going to grab them and you're going to make it happen, or you're low in commitment readiness, meaning you don't want to be attached to anyone. So people who are low on commitment readiness do not want a relationship. They may still want intimacy, they may still want entertainment, dopamine from the pursuit, but they are also the ones who are most likely going to keep you in the talking stage for longer because they understand that once they move you into the dating zone, then they're going to have to deal with the questions of our commitment and this going somewhere. The talking stage is a great pen pal situation. It's a great limbo situation. People do shift up and down the scale by the way of commitment readiness. If you've just broken up with someone, you're probably very low on the commitment readiness scale. But if you, you know, just got married, you're obviously very high. So maybe this person will change. Great news for you, though. You don't have to wait for that. There is no point you trying to force them to move up or down the scale. That is something that they can only do from themselves. And because they want to, there's no point trying. You just need to move on. The other thing that talking stage proponents have in common is often an anxious, avoidant, ambivalent attachment style. They've been hurt before. Their early childhood experiences have maybe taught them that closeness equals pain. And so they may keep you at arm's length as a way to protect themselves emotionally from really investing in you. It doesn't mean they may not want more. They just can't bring themselves to initiate it. Again, that's a really hard situation. But at that point, I do Think that you cannot wait around until their attachment style suddenly heals, Especially if they are not even willing to ask people on dates. It shows that unfortunately, they do have a lot of work to do themselves. And it's not like things are going to change once you're suddenly dating. Like, the time where you should be most excited about a relationship is when you're first getting to know someone. And if they're not, well, that's not going to get better. The final trait I tend to notice for those who love a talking stage is a class of people called novelty seekers. Obviously, as humans, we have a baseline desire and in fact, a need for newness, for novelty in our everyday lives. But some people find that this novelty is most satisfying to them when it comes in the form of human connection. So they are psychologically stimulated by the uncertainty of getting to know people, the exploration and the emotional novelty from talking stages. You know, talking stages are fun, they're exciting, everything is new. You don't know and you don't know anything about this person. They can be anything you want them to be. So they really enjoy that. They love that, like, flirtatious tension, that possibility, that potential. But when things start getting real, well, that can be the end of that. You know, the high is done for them, the fun is done. There's nothing wrong with any of these things or the people who possess these traits. But if you are exhausted from another dead end talking stage, maybe it's possible that this profile of people are the people you keep meeting. These are the people who keep coming across, coming into your lives, either through dating apps or through friends or through wherever. Maybe these can act as red flags or kind of an early warning system for you that if someone is displaying these things, hey, maybe this isn't leading where you think it's going to be leading. Maybe you nip it in the bud now. So this next big question we have that I'm very keen to answer, why is the talking stage so psychologically intense, even when we know we should just be information seeking, even when we know we should kind of keep our guard up until we're actually getting to know them in person. So the reason it's so psychologically intense is that the entire situation and the entire emotional environment you are in is uncertain. And uncertain situations take more from us mentally than certain ones. We are constantly judging, how much do I give, how much do I show? Do I text back? What do I say? Do they like me? Is this turning them off? Exhausting. And sometimes this can turn into some mind Games, some dating games. The games we play in the talking stage, they are like no other. But what one researcher has really argued is that games are actually quite destructive to relationships. And actually the reason that we play them is for self protection. It's not because we are trying to move something along. It's because we're trying to make sure that we aren't the first one who was hurt. If they're not messaging you back right away, then neither should you. Because you don't want to feel the fool. If they're only sending you videos or one word replies, you should do that as well. By matching their tone, we think that this will help us keep us less invested. But actually changing our behavior to meet theirs indicates the opposite. It indicates that we are invested enough to notice. It indicates that we are invested enough to not want to set them off or give them a reason to not talk to us. Just a reminder, you can never say the wrong thing to the right person. Please resist the urge to play games. Authenticity in these situations, it is so key. I wish I had known that sooner. There are so many times when, if I had just said what I meant and what I wanted to say when I wanted to say it, I would have been able to figure out someone so much quicker and I would have been able to realize that they were never going to be what I was after. But all of this excessive thinking, the other thing that it does is it leaves our brain assuming, hey, well, this person must be important because we're constantly thinking about them, we're changing our behaviour for them. So it makes the whole situation take on a much more serious tone. It implants them in our brain. That is what makes it so hard to let go and so intense. The other reason it can be so psychologically intense. Talking stages are by nature ambiguous. There aren't clear boundaries, but there's also so much potential. Then there's the concept of intermittent reinforcement. This is the same psychological mechanism that keeps people addicted to slot machines at the casino. Or like any form of gambling, you know, you don't win every time, but you win just enough to stay hooked. You know, a good morning text one day and then the next day, nothing. A very flirty conversation followed by them not saying anything for three days. It creates a psychological reward loop that can feel very addictive. Of course, you know, at the core of this experience, again I'm going to bring it up, is the potential that it could turn into more. And that's really exciting, especially if you've been single for a while or you are getting really great vibes and that leads to such an important question. How do you not get attached too quickly? I've been there when I was single. Oh my goodness. I would find it so hard to not immediately plan for a future with someone when we'd only been talking for like a few days. It can be so hard to not think that everyone is the one. It can be so hard to keep up your standards and to not get hurt. So we're going to talk about the exact formula and things you need to do to keep that distance in the early stages when we return. So stay with us.
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Soledad O'Brien
Foreign.
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There are so many ways that you.
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Soledad O'Brien
I'm Soledad O' Brien and on my podcast Murder on the Towpath, I'm taking you back to the 1960s. Mary Pinchot Meyer was a painter who lived in Georgetown in Washington, dc. Every day she took a daily walk along a tow path near the E and O Canal. So when she was killed in a.
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Wealthy neighborhood, she had been shot twice.
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Soledad O'Brien
In the head and in the back behind the heart. The police arrived in a heartbeat. Within 40 minutes, a man named Raymond Crump Jr. Was arrested. He was found nearby, so soaking wet, and he was black. Only one woman dared defend him, civil rights lawyer Dovey Roundtree. Join me as we unravel this story with a crazy twist. Because what most people didn't know is that Mary was connected to a very powerful man.
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John F. Kennedy (Quote)
I pledge you that we shall neither commit nor provoke aggression.
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Soledad O'Brien
John F. Kennedy Listen to Murder on the towpath with Soledad O' Brien on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.
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Psychology Podcast Host
I Think a talking stage becomes particularly difficult when we get attached, when we know we shouldn't. We get attached before we have any confidence that this is going to actually go anywhere. Rationally, this is very hard, right, because we want to pump the brakes, but our mind, our heart, whatever it is, has other plans and we feel very powerless over it. You know, this is what my experience was. I just couldn't help myself. My thoughts kept going back to that person. My behaviors automatically seemed to change. I would find myself idolizing the fantasy of them constantly checking my phone and I would consciously be trying to stop and I couldn't do it. This is also particularly hard, I think, if you're someone who is quite anxious, even a bit of a romantic, you know, who wouldn't chase after the possibility of love, who doesn't want to fall for the idea that they could be seen and loved. That's what every person wants. It's only natural to have that opportunity right in front of us and to think about it and to want it even more. But when we do get attached too easily, it really has nothing to do with what happens to the other person, right? Sometimes people worry about getting attached too quickly because they think it's going to scare them off. I think what we actually need to be worried about with this is the consequences that it might have for us and our own standards, our own well being, our own state of mind, what we look past when we shouldn't. So this is what we need to do to just keep a bit of our sanity. One of my favorite studies of all time investigated the reason behind why we settled too soon. And it found that this often happens when we are bored or when the rest of our life has become quite stagnant. We don't feel like we have much else going on. The other factor is having a poor self concept and feeling like this is as good as it's going to get. This is as good as I'll find. I may as well go for it. The way to counteract this is to keep your life beyond dating, specifically beyond the people you're talking to, as interesting and vibrant and full as possible. Now this has a few effects. It means you won't be bored, so we eliminate that. You won't be impressed by the bare minimum, but also you'll have something else to think about to keep you distracted. And, and the more you are passionate about in your solo life and your independent life, I think the less you'll lower your standards for someone who doesn't absolutely contribute and expand what you already have. It's also really important to slow down the part of your brain that is bound to start fantasizing. This part of your brain is called the default mode network. It's responsible for dreaming, fantasy, memory, creativity. Its counterforce is our executive functioning. It's our rational mind which can come into these fantasy scenarios and say, wow, that's pretty, that's very nice. But here's the cold hard truth. So the way to do this is I want you to deliberately call on your executive thoughts to notice when you're filling in gaps with idealized versions of who this person could be, not who they are. I want you to really be on the lookout for signs that you are emotionally over investing and when you are making assumptions about who they are that is not supported by evidence. So what we're going to try and do is date and connect. Specifically talk. Talk and connect based on data, not on daydreams. So I want you to ask yourself, if you're still in the talking stage, do I like them to or do I like the feeling of them being interested in me? Am I excited by the potential or am I actually enjoying this conversation? Am I investing too much in the what ifs or is this person actually giving me a good sign? It can also help to really have these hard and fast rules for when you can and cannot do certain things with them. Can and cannot bring up certain topics to ensure you're not attaching to certain soon. First off, if you've never met this person, you are not going to share too much about your past dating history. You are not going to talk about big topics for you. You're not going to make future plans with them. You don't need to tell them about your dreams, you don't need to tell them out, you don't need to tell them too much about what's going on in your life. Because I think that can inadvertently bond when you start going on dates. Yeah, that's fine, but talking stage, no. We of course also have the one month rule. At one month they're out. There's also this fantastic principle called, and I think this comes up later on. But in general advice for not getting attached too quickly, it's called the three day or three encounter rule which essentially states that you need to see people in three different contexts before deciding if they're right for you. You need to see them sober, you need to see them around others and you need to see them when they're stressed. Obviously like I said, comes in later on, but I think it's still mentally helpful for you to understand when you are allowed to commit and it's way down the line and try and combat the unconscious scarcity mindset that's probably sneaking in right now. Let me just say this, this is not the only person for you. There are more people who will be interested in you because you are endlessly fascinating. You give so much love to others. It's going to come back to you. This is just an information seeking exercise and you have just as much control in this situation as they do. Remember, there's no winning here. There's also no losing. There's no game. If this doesn't work out, that's because something better is coming for you. You just have to trust me when I say this. Showing up authentically and perhaps missing out, but knowing you missed out for the right reasons is better than, you know, dating someone and realizing that they have fallen for someone who is not you. They've fallen for someone who was appeasing them, who was doing things to make them more comfortable, who was pretending to like things that they liked, when really you didn't have anything in common. It's why honesty in this situation is always the best policy. Even just asking someone on a date, if they're not doing it for you, like you want to get an answer, that's the best way to get it. Let's now talk about what happens when the talking stage doesn't work out. I think it is okay to grieve these situations. I think it is okay to acknowledge that this is hard sometimes. I do seriously believe that we are essentially in a stage of mourning. Even though it might sound silly, we are mourning the endless potential of someone of what they could have been, which is, is sometimes harder because it's fed by the unknown rather than reality. It's what we call disenfranchised grief. Grief that isn't necessarily acknowledged by society. Grief that isn't necessarily large, but which still hurts even if it doesn't fit into the usual box of what we deserve to feel sad about. You know, when a relationship ends, you can kind of say, okay, well it didn't work out for these reasons. We tried this, we did this, we just didn't have it. But with the talking stage, it is shrouded in all these what ifs. What if we had been given a chance? What if, what if we just got gone on that first date? You know, what if they'd just gotten to know me? Don't they see, like this could have been something? That ambiguity is what makes this so hard to process. It's not just the rejection, it's the disappointment of the potential that was wasted by someone else's indecisiveness or their own issues. So here's how we're going to find some closure. You don't need to block them, but you do need to implement some rules. My biggest piece of advice would just to be. Would just be to straight up say to them, hey, you know, since we're not going on a date, since this is kind of going nowhere, I'm not sure if this has been lost in translation, but I'm really only keen on being able to meet people in person and actually get to know you. I know you don't want to waste my time, I don't want to waste yours either. So I think I'm going to focus on some other things and other people for a while. Really, you need to be direct. Use this as a polite excuse to essentially stop replying, stop interacting, maybe even mute them, move them to the unseen folder on messenger or Instagram. Create, like, some mental roadblocks so that if you want to talk to them, you have to consciously jump over some hurdles to basically get access to them. And hopefully those roadblocks serve as a reminder of like, hey, we're not doing this. We're not after this. We're walking away. Because you really need to reflect on what you want. You need to, after this point, really step back and realize that every loss is a lesson, even the small ones. Maybe you don't want to hear that right now, but instead of ruminating on the unanswered questions or the what ifs, you really do have to shift the answer inward. You know, this experience has probably really taught you what you're actually after. And before you get back out there and start chatting to another person, especially if you're someone who gets invested very quickly, I really want you to reframe and reassess and reaffirm what you're after. It sounds like you're after someone who wants to freaking date you. So take this as a lesson, as an important sign of why it's important to enforce boundaries, why it's important to be looking for someone who is going to take action and who wants to move things along. And I think know that you've saved yourself a lot of future pain from cutting it off now rather than waiting 2, 3, 4, 5 more months like, and then getting the shock of your life when you were even more attached. You know, it's also okay to just straight up distract yourself this person probably gave you a lot of dopamine. Potential is exciting. New beginnings are exciting. There's a lot of positive feelings that we're chasing here. Where can we cultivate that elsewhere? What can we pour out time and love into that isn't this person and isn't another person something bigger? So if you're really feeling stuck in it, set a new goal. Give back. Volunteer. Foster a dog. Foster a cat. Go and do some dog walking. Go and do some plant some planting, some community garden work. Like get out of your own mind and your own problems. Plan a weekend trip, get your friends together. Like there is nothing wrong with a bit of distraction. Sometimes you really do need that mental distance in order to integrate the experience and also understand that it might be shitty for me to say this to you right now. This is an important part of your story. This loss is actually a gain. My friend Sophie said something to me the other day that I really love, which is that is someone else's person and it didn't work out between you two because that was meant to be part of their story. To find the person they're meant to be with and when you meet the person you're meant to be with, you'll be thankful for all of their failed talking stages. All the ones they went to. You've got to be thankful because yes, the world is sometimes disappointing, but don't forget it's secretly working in your favor as well. That failed talking stage has meant that that person found their one. And it means that someone else's failed talking stage means that you guys are closer to meeting each other. Okay, with that sentiment in mind, we're going to take a short break, but when we return, let's discuss some of our really amazing listener questions about everything from whether the talking stage is different for lesbians, green flags in the talking stage, and whether the taxi cab theory is real. So stay tuned.
- [40:15]
ChatGPT Promotion Host
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- [42:20]
Psychology Podcast Host
So I'm kind of like what's the.
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ChatGPT Promotion Host
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iHeart Podcast Host
Time is precious and so are our pets. So time with our pets is extra precious. That's why we started Dutch. Dutch provides 247 access to licensed vets with unlimited virtual visits and follow ups for up to five pets. You can message a vet at any time and schedule a video visit the same day. Our vets can even prescribe medication for many ailments and shipping is always free. With Dutch, you'll get more time with your pets and year round peace of mind when it comes to their vet care.
- [43:21]
Soledad O'Brien
I'm Soledad o' Brien and on my podcast Murder on the Towpath, I'm taking you back to the 1960s. Mary Pinchot Meyer was a painter who lived in Georgetown in Washington D.C. every day she took a daily walk along a tow path near the E and O Canal. So when she was killed in a wealthy neighborhood, she had been shot twice in the head and in the back, behind the heart. The police arrived in a heartbeat. Within 40 minutes, a man named Raymond Crump Jr. Was arrested. He was found nearby, soaking wet, and he was black. Only one woman dared defend him. Civil rights lawyer Dovey Roundtree. Join me as we unravel this story with a crazy twist, because what most people didn't know is that Mary was connected to a very powerful man.
- [44:16]
John F. Kennedy (Quote)
I pledge you that we shall neither commit nor provoke aggression.
- [44:21]
Soledad O'Brien
John F. Kennedy. Listen to Murder on the towpath with Soledad O' Brien on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.
- [44:34]
Psychology Podcast Host
Our first question, which I really should have addressed earlier, is what are actual green flags during the talking stage? I've got a couple, I think someone who asks questions, someone who replies in under 12 hours. And even 12 hours is a bit of a stretch. People are always on their phones. They want to talk to you. They will. Someone who is taking it somewhere. There is movement. They are gauging your interest in plans. They are seeking your availability. They're saying we should do these things and actually acting on that. Someone who isn't sharing too much too soon, I think is another green flag. You know, they're not trying to have all the big, dark, maybe deep conversations online. They're saving stuff for in person. And this one, some people might not agree with me, but someone who doesn't make comments about your body or about sex during the talking stage, like, you don't even know this person yet. If they're being like, oh, we should do this, and making comments about sexual things, I'm just like, no, that's. This is not a good, a good setup. So those are my green flags. But definitely someone who was, like, looking to get off the messaging on the dating app situation. This next question, is the talking stage different for lesbians? I don't know. So this question fascinated me. I had to do some digging. I had two things that I kind of came across. Women in general have more mirror neurons. That's why. That's what makes us more empathetic, more often emotionally aware, especially when we combine that with social conditioning. You know, we are, we are raised to be quite more communicative, to be more vulnerable, to be more open. So maybe if it was two women who were dating, that would mean that they would be getting to the dating part sooner because they're probably going to be more direct and wanting to really connect with People, that was my first theory which would make it different for lesbians. I was also thinking about this stereotype which is that the very famous myth that lesbians commit sooner, they move in faster, they have shorter talking stages. I did some digging on that. There's a very well known study, actually one that we really should be talking about more from Stanford University which found that lesbian couples do not shack up any faster than heterosexual pairs. This idea of the U haul lesbian of them moving in quicker, doing things quicker is not supported by evidence. So with all that in mind, you know, I really didn't find any actual fundamental evidence for a difference in a talking, in the talking stage for lesbians. Like there is nothing about that, about them individually that's different from a heterosexual woman. That is going to mean that this is, is different for them. That being said, I also know that the research community, the psychology community, a lot of the times, like they don't, they don't really consider individuals of different sexualities in their research. So there really is no way of knowing because no one's done any real research on this. So if you have a different opinion, if you have information that is different to what I've said or evidence to the contrary, let me know and I'll do a little update on this because I think it would be fascinating to know. My main inclination is it's probably not different. Like in general, it's probably not different. There might just be more individual differences that are noticeable within those relationships that perhaps aren't being talked about more. I love this next question. How do I stay interested on the apps? I accidentally ghost to many people because it's so boring. Yeah, often it's boring because no one is messaging you back, right? So firstly, take a little break. Just take a step back to a dating detox. Rethink your priorities. Are you looking for a relationship? Are you looking for a fun Saturday night? Are you just looking for sex? You got to know what you're after because that's going to influence your approach. When you get back on the dating apps, be intentional. How many people are you swiping on? Are you only swiping on people you really like? Or if you're looking for just a fun Saturday night, are you swiping on everyone? Are you being really direct with your messages? Or are you looking for things to flow a little bit more? Bring the energy. And I know it's so hard when some people are just like a freaking brick wall. But what I found useful and what a friend of mine who's Currently dating was talking to me about the other day was that she knows dating apps are sometimes a numbers game and you just have to be in them and you just have to be committed to it. So she clears her messages every evening, so she spends just 10 minutes replying to until she begins to notice the people she really wants to chat with, or until someone stands out. She's like, you know what? If I want to date properly and I want to be in a relationship, I've got to be kind of systematic about it. And I'm like, okay, yeah, go off, girl. Like that. Maybe that's. Maybe that's the way to do it. Maybe that's just. You just got to put in the energy the same way you do when you're looking for a job, right? And you don't get any replies back. You just got to keep going. But I'm rooting for you. I would also say ask your friends to set you up with people. People you never know. They might have someone sneaky who they haven't told you about before, who they work with, or who's a brother of a friend of a cousin of a sister. That sounds kind of incesty, but you know what I mean? Like, they might know someone. This final question. Is the taxicab theory real? So taxicab theory, you may have heard it on TikTok. I think it's originally from Sex and the City, which I have been re watching recently, which is perhaps why I was attracted to this question. The theory is that it's about men, and it's that men essentially, at some stage in their lives, this light goes on and they are ready for a relationship. And as soon as they are ready for a relationship, the same way as soon as you are ready for a cab, you just get into the first one you see, and that's your relationship, that's your cap. So the idea is that men spend all this time wanting to have fun, being uncommitted, and then one day a light will switch. And that's when they go searching for the. Searching for the relationship. The first person they find who wants to be in a relationship with them. That's how it's going to work. I think it kind of aligns with some real concepts. Readiness theory, the commitment readiness theory, which we talked about before. People commit when they are ready, not necessarily when they meet the right person. So, yes, timing does matter. It also kind of aligns with some of that milestone anxiety someone might be experiencing. The commitment scripts that we all face, the dating scripts of. Oh, I'M getting to, I'm getting up there, I'm getting to 35 or whatever age it is that people feel they really need to have someone and that could really trigger them to settle down because of societal pressure. I in general don't think it's real. I think it oversimplifies things. I think it keeps putting men in charge of relationships and in control of any kind of relationship dynamic they find themselves in, which I hope we are evolving from that. And I also think there's no reason why that wouldn't be the same case for women as well. I think really it's not about men, it's not about women, it's not about any gender. I think it's just about the fact that some people do get to a stage where they are ready to commit. Do they necessarily jump into the first relationship they see? Maybe I think it's more that they really start taking dating more seriously and they start not trying to find excuses for why they shouldn't date. They start trying to find reasons why they should. Some people would call that settling. I think any relationship kind of requires some kind of compromise that sounds like that. So that's all we have time for for these questions, my lovely listeners. If you have made it this far, but put an emoji in the comments for how dating is currently making you feel. Whatever emoji, you don't even need to explain it. What's the mood of your dating vibe at the moment? If you have a friend, relative, colleague who needs to hear this episode, send it to them. Maybe they can get something out of it. Make sure you're following me on Instagram at that psychology podcast. I love hearing your questions. I love hearing what you think about this episode. So I'll see you over there for even more behind the scenes content and kind of announcements on upcoming events as well. But until next time, stay safe, be kind, be gentle to yourself. Good luck my brave soldiers in the talking phase. And we will talk. We will talk very, very soon.
- [53:46]
ChatGPT Promotion Host
ChatGPT plus is free for college students now through May. That means you have no limits on how many ways you can prompt ChatGPT to help with you you through the worst parts of the school year. I remember when I was studying at university, I had a lecturer tell me the best way to prep for an exam was to explain the concept as if you were teaching it to yourself. And with CHAT GBT you can upload your class notes and have ChatGPT quiz.
- [54:10]
Psychology Podcast Host
You just like that.
- [54:12]
ChatGPT Promotion Host
And honestly, it would have been a game changer for me when I was back at college. So chat GPT plus free for college students through May restrictions apply.
- [54:22]
iHeart Podcast Host
Time is precious and so are our pets. So time with our pets is extra precious. That's why we started Dutch. Dutch provides 24. 7 access to licensed vets with unlimited virtual visits and follow ups for up to five pets. You can message a vet at any time and schedule a video visit the same day. Our vets can even prescribe medication for many ailments and shipping is always free. With Dutch, you'll get more time with your pets and year round peace of mind when it comes to their vet care.
- [54:51]
Soledad O'Brien
I'm Soledad o' Brien and on my new true crime podcast, Murder on the Towpath, I'm taking you back to 1964 to the cold case of artist Mary Pinchot Meyer.
- [55:03]
Psychology Podcast Host
She had been shot twice in the.
- [55:05]
Soledad O'Brien
Head and in the back. It turns out Mary was connected to a very powerful man.
- [55:12]
John F. Kennedy (Quote)
I pledge you that we shall neither commit nor provoke aggression.
- [55:16]
Soledad O'Brien
John F. Kennedy. Listen to Murder on the towpath with Soledad O' Brien on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast.
- [55:30]
Emily Tish Sussman
Hi, it's Emily Tish Sussman, host of the podcast. She Pivots in honor of Mother's Day. We have some very special guests. Yes, I'm Elaine Welteroff.
- [55:40]
Ritual Promotion Host
And I'm Caitlin Murray.
- [55:42]
Emily Tish Sussman
Both women pivoted out of their careers after having their kids, proving that motherhood is just another chapter in our journey, not the end. Come on over to hear their full stories. You can listen to she pivots on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [56:00]
iHeart Podcast Host
You're listening to an iHeart podcast.