← The Psychology of your 20s
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- [00:00]
Gemma
This is an I Heart Podcast. Hello my lovely listeners. By now you know the more knowledge we have about ourselves and the way our bodies work, the more empowered and in control we are. And this is also true when it comes to our sexual health and what to do after unprotected sex. That's where Plan B comes in. It's emergency contraception with no age requirement that helps prevent pregnancy before it starts. And because it works by only temporarily delaying ovulation, it won't impact your ability to get pregnant in the future. We love a backup plan that puts us in control because the more we know, the more power we have. Learn more@planb1step.com users directed I truly don't think I've ever had as many events as I do right now. And N's Shower Cream has been not just a lifesaver but a time saver as well. Because I don't know about you, I just can't be bothered with shaving anymore, especially as I've been trying to remove house and do a million other things. Nice is the number one hair removal brand and their body and shower creams. Firstly, they actually smell delicious whilst working so well to get rid of all of my hair. When I'm tight on time, I use the shower cream infused with coconut oil and it's also so gentle on my skin, I feel so silky afterwards. And it's free of dyes, parabens, phthalates and sulfates. So get ready for summer buy now at all major retailers.
- [01:23]
Unknown Tech Critic
OpenAI is a financial abomination, a thing that should not be an aberration, a symbol of rot at the heart of Silicon Valley. And I'm going to tell you while my show Better Offline the rudest show in the tech industry where we're breaking down why OpenAI, along with other AI companies are dead set on lying to your boss that they can take your job. I'm also going to be talking with the greatest minds in the industry about all the other ways the rich and powerful are ruining the computer. Listen to Better offline on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts. Wherever you happen to get your podcasts.
- [01:53]
Dexter Thomas
Are there any pictures of you online? Then you could already be in a massive police database without even knowing it.
- [01:59]
Unknown Analyst
Clear View Square scrapes together images from Facebook, from LinkedIn, from Venmo accounts.
- [02:05]
Dexter Thomas
I'm Dexter Thomas, host of Kill Switch, a podcast about how living in the future is affecting us right now.
- [02:10]
Unknown Analyst
Police. They are trusting this software with this magical ability to lead them to the.
- [02:15]
Dexter Thomas
Right suspect in this episode, we dive into how cops are using AI and facial recognition and sometimes getting it wrong and putting innocent people behind bars.
- [02:24]
Unknown Analyst
So if your accuser is this algorithm, but you're not even being told that it was used, let alone given any of the details about how it works.
- [02:33]
Dexter Thomas
Listen to Kill Switch on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [02:44]
Gemma
Hello everybody, and welcome back to the psychology of your 20s, the podcast where we talk through some of the big life changes and transitions of our 20s and what they mean for our psychology. Hello everybody. Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to the podcast. New listeners, old listeners, wherever you are in the world, it is so great to have you here back for another episode. As we of course break down the psychology of of our 20s. I just want to jump in early to this episode and thank you all for the love that you have shown my relatively new podcast, Mantra. I know I've been talking about it a lot recently, but if you didn't know, I actually have another podcast. It's called Mantra, and every Monday I give you an affirmation, a powerful phrase or statement to carry you through the week. And we explore the philosophy, the spirituality, the psychology behind what makes that phrase work. For example, recent mantras that I've covered include, I know that love won't pass me. I release the need to do it all. I cultivate peace within. It's one mantra every Monday to help anchor you in the present, to help, I guess, just ground you and give you some kind of clarity in your life. So if you haven't checked that out and if you love the psychology of your 20s, I'll leave a link in the description because I think you would really, really enjoy it. With that in mind, let's get into this episode, a bit of a controversial episode, an episode where I am sure people will not agree with me on some of my takes, but I am very much looking forward to the discussion. And you guys know I'm very much looking forward to being proven wrong or just hearing what other people's perspectives are. We're talking about age gap relationships. I recently saw this buzzfeed article, and I know buzzfeed, such a relic of the past, but I saw this article speaking about famous Hollywood couples known for having a significant age gap. Beyonce and jay Z, Leonardo DiCaprio and literally everyone he's ever dated. Some of these people were even born decades apart. You know, Kris Jenner, Corey Gamble, George Clooney, Amal Clooney. And that article didn't really Surprise me. The comments, though, were, I don't want to say shocking, but really, psychologically, sociologically interesting how split down the middle people were about these kinds of relationships. And it got me thinking. With something so sensationalized as age gap relationships that is spoken about and dissected so often in the media, how do they actually work? How can people, even decades apart, be attracted to each other and form long lasting, successful relationships when you would assume that their mindsets and their mental age would be so very different? Is there a special secret number that makes age gap relationships appropriate and not? Where is the line between when we understand them and when they start to feel a little bit maybe uncomfortable? I really wanted to know, what are the dynamics that make these relationships work? Why do we have an implicit societal judgment about these relationships? Is that judgment fair? And that's really what we're going to explore today. Not just the public opinion about age gap relationships, but the psychology about it. And there is a lot to this topic. It's not just as simple as an age difference. We really need to talk about individual needs, dating preferences, maturity expectations, societal pressures, developmental psychology. I think the reason that people have varying and different opinions on these kinds of relationships is that it's often against the story that we have been told about our lives and romantic love. The story that says you meet someone around your age, maybe in college, maybe through friends, or at your first real job. You date, you get serious, you get engaged, you get married, probably around the same time that all your friends are doing it. You might buy your first home, you know, you might have children, you grow old together, you're hitting all these predictable major milestones at the same time. When an age gap is introduced, basically, it gets kind of confusing. When do you choose to have kids? What if that person already has kids? Can you actually be with someone who is much older than you? Or is it going to intrinsically automatically set up a power imbalance? There's all these whispers of trophy partners or sugar daddies, or hidden agendas or manipulation. Is that assessment fair? So we're going to explore the why behind the attraction. We're going to explore the stereotypes. We're going to talk about not just romantic age gap relationships, but platonic ones as well. And we're also going to unpack. Can these relationships work? What are the unique dynamics and challenges that they are going to face? And how can we maybe confront our own biases and rethink what an age gap relationship really means, not just for the two people in it, but for society in general? So there is a lot to discuss. I know I always say this. There was a lot of psychology that you may not have expected. So without further ado, let's get into the psychology of age gap relationships. So before we go any further, I need to make a really serious but important distinction, one that is absolutely critical to this entire conversation. When we talk about age gap relationships on this podcast, we are exclusively talking about relationships between consenting adults. This is a non negotiable point. The very idea of an age gap is deeply problematic and frankly, dangerous when it is applied to relationships involving minors or younger people in those situations. We're not talking about a discussion, we're not talking about a debate. There is no right or wrong answer. It's wrong, it's exploitation, it's abuse, it's illegal. The power imbalance, the developmental differences and the capacity for true consent are fundamentally absent when one person is a child, even if they're mature for their age, even if they've graduated high school, whatever it is. Also, we are not at all about supporting relationships where grooming has taken place and someone has waited till someone is freshly 18 or 19 to start a serious relationship, but was, you know, secretly attracted to them for much longer. Still not okay. Just because it may be legal doesn't mean that it's right. I think when we are young, an acceptable age gap is going to be smaller than between someone who is, say, in their late 20s or 30s or 40s. Because of the amount of growth that you're going through, it is so rapid. You know, the difference between 19 and 25 and 35, like those are much bigger jumps in terms of understanding and experiences and mental maturity compared to the jump between 27, 37, 47 or 57. And that is something that we really need to acknowledge if anyone is trying to justify a relationship that started when someone was 16 or 17 or 18 or even 19 and the other person was much older or in a position of developmental power doesn't have a place here. Sorry, it's just creepy. We're not going to be accepting rebuttals on that fact. But with that vital point really established, let's talk about consenting age gap relationships, starting at the very beginning, why they occur in the first place, and breaking down the attraction itself. So generally, when psychologists talk about age gap relationships, they are referring to a romantic partnership where there's an age difference of seven years or more between partners. Now, of course, I think five or six years can be even feel particularly significant, depending on your life stage, especially when you're in your early 20s. You know, five years can mean the difference between still being at university and having a mortgage. But seven to 10 years is often the threshold used in the research. So that's going to be our starting point today. Let's begin with the question, why is it that people are drawn to someone who is significantly older or significantly younger? We really cannot talk about this without mentioning evolutionary psychology, of course. So David Buss, he's one of the leading voices in this field. He has spent decades studying mate preferences across cultures, including those with an age gap. And interestingly, what he has found in studies spanning more than 30 countries is actually pretty consistent. Heterosexual men, on average, tend to prefer younger women, typically women in their mid-20s, regardless of their own age. Whereas women, on the other hand, tend to prefer slightly older men, often by about three to five years, sometimes more. I just want to say a lot of this research, if not all of it, is very heteronormative. I really did search for articles on lesbian or queer couples or gay men, and there is basically nothing. So if you are in the market for a cool PhD or research project, this is a good place to start. But for now, the research we have mainly focuses on straight men and women. And this pattern appears to be pretty consistent. According to an evolutionary model, men would be drawn to signals of fertility and youth, which would often indicate reproductive viability. The idea is that men just want to have offspring. Who are they going to have the best chances with? Someone who was younger? That's the theory. Women, conversely, are theorized to really look for signals of stability, resources, and the ability to protect and provide traits that often accumulate with age and experience. So this is all part of something we call sexual selection theory, and it explains why these preferences might show up in large population studies based on parts of our biology as humans and parts of our animal nature. Now, of course, there are nuances to this. Scientists are going deeper, and what they found is it's not just that women like older, men like younger. When you dig deeper, it's that women who are before 40. So younger women tend to prefer a larger age gap. But as women get older, they actually prefer someone age their own age or someone even younger. So maybe the data that we're collecting is only looking at a certain group of women, or the preferences of older women are kind of getting suppressed by certain data sets. Men, on the other hand, do typically like the same age from the age of 20 to the age of 60. But again, just because the data has a median, just because the Data has a trend, doesn't necessarily mean that it represents every single person. You cannot take one study, one data set and say, look, there we go. Men like younger, women like older. That is the truth of the universe. What's even more fascinating is a recent study from actually started this year, January 2025, that looked at over 6,000 blind dates. And it found that whilst women report wanting older partners in surveys, actually in bl date scenarios, they are just as attracted to younger partners as men were. And this suggests that there might be a difference between what we think we prefer and what actually sparks attraction in real life interactions. So if you're only basing your data on self reporting, so if you're only basing it on asking someone, do you like older men, do you like younger men, do you like older women, do you like younger women? People are going to say something different to what they might reflect in a real life scenario. And here's where the critics of this evolutionary theory would jump in and make some very valid points. We are not just animals. This perspective is overly deterministic. It's too focused on biology, not enough on culture, not enough on the complexities of human beings and individual choice and rational preferences. It might actually come down to the qualities of the individual rather than this primal urge. Because I think a lot of us can't relate to that. You know, I personally cannot relate to this very simplistic biological idea that I should like older men because that's what would be best for having offspring. Like, I think it really does reduce people to just wanting to their, I don't know, drive to have children. And if you don't want children, like how do you fit into this model? And if you know you can't have children, how do you fit into this model like that? You can see that it's very, it's one dimensional, it doesn't fit everyone. Let's talk about this quality based theory behind age gap relationships. So basically the second theory goes to say that the reason that age gap relationships are more prevalent among certain people or the reason people choose them is actually because it's not just what age reflects, it's what experience reflects. If you're the younger partner, the draw to an older individual might come from a personal desire for factors like maturity, stability and guidance. That's what you want in a partner. And that's something you may have been struggling to find in a 21 year old or a 27 year old. It's not that if a 27 year old or a 21 year old came along and had all of those factors, you would say no, it's just that it's hard to find them. So now imagine meeting someone, say 10 or 15 years older. They've already navigated a significant chunk of that early adult chaos. They might be firmly established in their career. They might have their own home. A clear sense of who they are, a clear sense of what they want, a lot of wisdom. If that's something that you always have desired in a partner, you can see why this would be incredibly appealing. They also might introduce you to new things, new ideas, better restaurants, a sense of quiet comfort that feels, you know, very far away from dating in your 20s where it's situationships and one night stands. It's a personal preference. Age is just a number. I guess that's what I'm trying to say. But the experiences and the mindset that come from age is what appeals to you based on a dating preference that could actually be met by someone your own age. Let's flip the script. What might an older partner find attractive in someone younger? You know what, I'm going to admit my prejudices here and say that I used to think that the only reason that an older man, or well, mainly an older man would date a younger woman is just because she was hot and because she may have been easy to manipulate. That is really what I used to believe. But having discussions with my friends like, I've come to realize that it's more complex and I'm glad that they kind of called me out on what was a very, I think, old school bias for someone who is older. It's not just that a younger person might be, you know, more youthful and that they find that more attractive. It often has to do with energy. This is what people have explained to me. Energy, a fresh perspective, unbridled enthusiasm for life. If you're an older partner, the attraction to someone younger may stem from that real desire for vitality. Maybe as you get into your 30s and your 40s, life can feel very routine. And someone who's in their 20s brings a sense of adventure and excitement and spontaneity. They might challenge you. There's also a sense of validation, feeling desired and attractive. To someone who represents youth and beauty, that can be a really powerful boost to self esteem as one ages. I just watched Materialist the other day. Gonna say it's a terrible movie. Really didn't like it. But one thing did stand out and it was when Dakota Johnson is talking to that bride who is getting married and she says, you want to Marry him because he makes you feel valuable. Really, that's why we want to be with anyone. They make us feel valuable for whatever reason. And if you're an older person, the same interaction is at play here. They make you feel valuable. Even in a very ageist society. Who would tell you that the older you get, the less worth you have? If we really think about this through a lens of social exchange theory, this might help us understand it from a more cost benefit perspective. Social exchange theory basically says that any relationship can be seen as an exchange where both parties seek to maximize rewards and minimize costs. Obviously this might be unconscious when you're in love and, you know, desperately devoted and loyal and desiring of someone. But in any age gap relationship, there is an exchange. Youth and beauty, vitality on one side for stability, wisdom and resources. And the same way that any other couple has an exchange of their own. An age gap relationship exchange might just be a little bit more obvious in those certain areas. And it might sound mathematical, but it's simply acknowledging that different life stages offer different currencies the same way that different perspectives, often different currencies and a relationship might feel balanced despite an age gap. If both partners perceive themselves as getting something valuable and deeply needed from the other. It's really about finding completeness that might be missing from the relationships that you may be having with your peers. And again, it does sometimes just come down to mental age and it comes down to your mindset whether you want someone who was younger or older based on how you see yourself. So I want to talk about something else, a little bit of a little bit of a sidebar, if you will. I want to talk about platonic friendships with an age gap because I think that a discussion if this fits well into the social exchange theory, right. We cannot just see age gap relationships only through a romantic lens. Having non romantic bonds that are intergenerational is incredibly powerful. It's something that I personally think that we need to have more of. One of my most amazing, greatest friends, someone I really treasure as a friend, whose name is Emma. She's in her 50s and we met at a ceramics class and she was amazing. And we just kept doing courses with each other and she comes to parties of mine, she comes to book events, she brings me honey from her bumblebees and we talk about everything. And I trust her opinion so much on what's happening in my life. And I remember last year when I was going through a tough time, like she just gave me the most beautiful advice. And it was advice that I don't think I could have gotten from a friend around my age because they hadn't lived through it it the way that she lived through it. And if we can see that there is this beautiful exchange between people like me and Emma, we can see how that might translate in a romantic sense as well. But from a Platonic sense, these relationships are so valuable. Maybe it's like an older colleague who's, like, become a mentor or your elderly neighbor that, like, retells stories of when they were younger or a younger family member or a cousin or a sibling's friend who, like, keeps you in on all the goss and all, like, the trends and whatever. Like, they bring about such a different perspective that we are missing. And in a world where I think we are increasingly burrowing into our bubbles and we are increasingly only seeking out opinions that maybe match our own or experiences that match our own, having people who are different to us not just in terms of, like, race or religion or ethnicity or beliefs, but age as well, is actually really, really valuable. And they bring you so many new ideas, and they can challenge your assumptions. So actually, I went looking for research to confirm this, and it wasn't that hard to find. There was a study done in 2016 from the Stanford center of Longevity that found that intergenerational relationships are incredibly important for life satisfaction, for learning, and provide a really deep sense of companionship. It's really good for us in our 20s, but it's also good for the older generation. A 2022 study of over 5,000 people who are over 60 found that the ones who had close friends under the age of 50 and under the age of 40 even actually felt younger. And they were more likely to be physically active. They were more likely to be socially active as well. And you know what? This is a less fun statistic, but I think it's worth mentioning. Nearly one third of seniors said that it had been at least five years since they'd made a new friend, five years since they, you know, had a new person in their life who was interested in them and who cared about them and who could talk to them. And I think our generation is also equally struggling with loneliness. And it's like, here is this solution that is right in front of us. If we can get over the stereotypes of what we think is expected from us socially, and if we can get over this idea that it's weird to have older friends or it's weird to be friends with people who are younger than you. Absolutely not. What these platonic bonds, I think really highlight is that we all have this core human desire for companionship that transcends age. When you find someone, regardless of their birth year, with whom you share values, intellectual curiosity, genuine mutual respect, a very powerful relationship can bloom, platonic or non platonic. This is your reminder. Talk to older people. Make friends with the people who are 10, 20, 40 years older than you. They will teach you so much valuable stuff. And it's not just about what they can teach you. They're also like, you could just have a friend, like a regular old friend who you hang out with and who you get drinks with and who you get coffee with. And I think that's amazing. We all need more friends. Now that I've taken that I think very necessary detour, but very weird detour. We are going to circle back to romantic relationships, particularly the unique challenges they might face and when an age gap relationship should be called into question. So stay with us. We'll be right back after this short break.
- [26:09]
Dexter Thomas
Are there any pictures of you online? I'm not just talking about Google. I'm talking anywhere.
- [26:14]
Unknown Analyst
Clear View scrapes together images from Facebook, from LinkedIn, from Venmo accounts.
- [26:20]
Dexter Thomas
That database is now being used by police departments all across the country to match criminal suspect photos. And sometimes it makes mistakes.
- [26:28]
Unknown Analyst
So in this one case, two of their search results that I think were in the top 10 of the search results were Michael Jordan, just a picture of Michael Jordan, but cops are still.
- [26:36]
Dexter Thomas
Using it to make arrests.
- [26:38]
Unknown Analyst
Police, they are trusting the software to lead them to the right suspect. But you're not even being told that it was used, let alone given any of the details about how it works.
- [26:48]
Dexter Thomas
This is not Minority Report. This is happening right now. People are getting arrested and doing actual time in jail after being picked out by a computer. I'm Dexter Thomas, host of Killswitch, where every Wednesday we explain the right now of living in the future. You can turn off the computer, but do not let the computer turn you off. Listen to Kill switch in the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [27:11]
George M. Johnson
This Pride Month, we are not just celebrating, we're fighting back. I'm George M. Johnson and my book All Boys Aren't Bl named the most banned book in America. If the culture wars have taught me anything, it's that pride is protest. And on my podcast, Fighting Words, we talk to people who use their voices to resist, disrupt and make our community stronger.
- [27:37]
Gemma
This year we are showing up and showing out.
- [27:39]
Dexter Thomas
You need people being like, no, you're not going to tell us what to do.
- [27:44]
George M. Johnson
This regime is coming down on us, and I don't want it to just survive. I want to thrive. You'll hear from trailblazers like Bob the Drag Queen to freedom Angelica Ross.
- [27:55]
Gemma
We ready to fight. I'm ready to fight.
- [27:56]
George M. Johnson
And Gabrielle Union.
- [27:57]
Gemma
Hi, George.
- [27:58]
George M. Johnson
And storytellers with wisdom to spare. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [28:07]
Unknown Tech Critic
OpenAI is a financial abomination, a thing that should not be an aberration, a symbol of rot at the heart of Silicon Valley. And I'm going to tell you why on my show, Better Offline, the rudest show in the tech industry where we're breaking down why OpenAI, along with other AI companies, are dead set on lying to your boss that they can take your job. I'm also going to be talking with the greatest minds in the industry about all the other ways the rich and powerful are ruining the computer. Listen to Better offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts. Wherever you happen to get your podcasts.
- [28:37]
Erica and Mila
The OGs of Uncensored Motherhood are back and badder than ever. I'm Erica. And I'm Mila. And we're the hosts of the Good Moms Bad Choices podcast, brought to you by the Black Effect Podcast Network every Wednesday. Historically, men talk too much and women have quietly listened. And all that stops here. If you like witty women, then this is your tribe with guests like Corinne Stephens.
- [28:58]
Gemma
I've never seen so many women protect predatory men. And then me too happened, and then everybody else want to get pissed off because the white said it was okay.
- [29:05]
Erica and Mila
Problem.
- [29:06]
George M. Johnson
My oldest daughter, her first day in ninth grade and I called to ask.
- [29:10]
Gemma
How it was doing. She was like, oh, dad, all they.
- [29:12]
George M. Johnson
Were doing was talking about your thing in class. I ruined my baby's first day of high school.
- [29:17]
Erica and Mila
And Slumflower.
- [29:18]
Gemma
What turns me on is when a man sends me money. Like, I feel the moisture between my legs when a man sends me money. I'm like, oh, my God, it's go time. You actually sent it.
- [29:29]
Erica and Mila
Listen to the Good Moms Bad Choices podcast every Wednesday on the Black Effect podcast network, the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you go to find your podcast.
- [29:38]
Gemma
So once that initial spark is there, what are the unique dynamics and challenges that an age gap couple may face, especially as they navigate, you know, the very different waters of their respective life stages? Because I think whilst love may be blind, life stages certainly are not. And pretending that they don't exist is frankly, not very helpful and will end up getting in the way. Firstly, the really critical issue that I think a lot of people in age gap relationships will encounter is social perception and stigma. Research in social psychology consistently shows that age gap relationships, particularly those where the woman is significantly older than the man or where the gap is very large, face a lot of external judgment and scrutiny. Whether that is fair or not is something we're going to debate in a second. But, you know, friends might be wary, family might disapprove, even strangers make assumptions, give you the bit of the side eye. This external pressure can be incredibly draining on the relationship. It requires the couple to be very secure in their bond and to really develop strategies for dealing with this judgment. And it can definitely kind of foster a sense of us against the world that can either strengthen a bond or isolate the couple, or isolate an individual within the couple from leaving sometimes. And this stigma is often massively amplified and distorted by media representation. Think about how age gap relationships are usually portrayed on screen, in tabloids, in mainstream news, they tend to fall into a few stereotypical categories, right? The sugar daddy, the cougar, the gold digger, the manipulator, even someone assuming that a younger woman has daddy issues. On the point of younger women with daddy issues actually liking older men, I actually want to tell you the research completely refutes this idea. 2016 study found that 74% of women in age gap relationships with older men were securely attached, which is actually above the general population average of around 50 to 65%. So again, we are obviously getting some things wrong here. And those media portrayals, they do matter. It doesn't just, you know, reflect public opinion. It really shapes public opinion and means that someone in a very healthy age gap relationship might feel that there are implicit biases about who they are with. So another of the most frequently cited challenge in any age gap relationship is of course, differing life stages. If you are in your 20s, you are right smack in the middle of what psychologists call emerging adulthood. This is a very unique, very important developmental period from around 18 to 29 that has five unique features to it. Identity exploration, instability, self focus, feeling in between, and the sense of multiple possibilities. Even if you think you are old for your age, these five things are undoubtedly happening to you in some form during this period of emerging adulthood. Now, imagine you're going through that and your partner is like way past their 20s. They've often already navigated a significant chunk of that early adult chaos, and they have a clear sense of who they are and what they want this can create very natural but often subtle divergences in daily life and daily priorities and social needs. Starting with social needs, you know, your idea of a good time might differ. Your social circles might differ. You know, for you, if you're in your early 20s, mid-20s, like your ideal Friday night might be a noisy pub, or going out for drinks, or doing something out and about, whilst your partner may be finding that it's a quiet dinner with longtime friends or their children or their family. And so merging these or maintaining separate social lives really does require conscious effort to find like an authentic shared ground between the younger one and the older one. If you are someone younger dating someone older, you do have to consider whether you are going to feel like you're missing out. Do you want to be having the fun, young, free, careless experiences that everyone else is having? Particularly when it comes to dating, partying, traveling? Is that something that your current partner can provide you access to? Do they want to do it with you? Or maybe it's just not your thing at all and that's fine. But is there anything you really want to do that maybe would be better with a partner your own age? Or no, again, it's a personal preference. Like there is no right answer, there's no judgment, but it is something to consider. Are there things that you are going to miss out on because of this relationship dynamic that may actually foster long term resentment? It's a thing that comes up in any relationship, the idea that someone else is making you close doors for them or say no for them. When you really want to say yes, you just have to consider that career trajectories are another thing that's probably going to vary. You might be intensely focused on getting internships, climbing the career ladder, building your professional identity, just not even knowing what you want. And your partner could be very settled in their career. And this often leads to differing priorities and also financial stresses. For example, you know, you might be saving to travel, they might be saving for a house or for their kids college tuition. You know, these are significant differences and they really do demand open discussion around financial goals and lifestyle expectations just to ensure that you are both on the same page. It's also about being safe, about financial reliance. This is a conversation people don't want to have. But please, please, please make sure you have your own savings account. Make sure that you are investing in your own financial literacy. A person, regardless of what age they are, is not a financial plan. Even if they can provide for you, you should still feel like if everything went to shit and you broke up or someone cheated or something worse happened, you could provide for yourself. You know, coercive control through money and finances is also a very real problem, and it's often exaggerated when there is an earning imbalance. So please just be smart. Please just don't completely rely on them, even if they want you to. I always say, like, the person you marry, the person you start dating, is not the person you break up with. They're not the person you divorce. So even if they're a great person right now, and they're amazing and beautiful and wonderful and you never think that they could do anything like that, still, just make sure it's in the back of your mind. Make sure that you're still staying financially literate. And now we get to perhaps the biggest hurdle, the biggest life decision that may be different, which is around family and children and also the timeline around those things. If you are a younger partner and you deeply want children and the older partner has grown children and doesn't want any more or is just like past their reproductive years, this can create a real fundamental incompatibility. Conversely, you know, if the older partner is really wants kids, doesn't have kids yet, and wants them soon, and you're still kind of enjoying your free younger days, that can also be difficult. Then there may even be an existing family dynamic that requires a lot of adjustment and understanding. Like, are you ready to be a step parent? If you still feel like a child yourself, are you ready to invest in a completely different kind of relationship? You know, because you may be able to walk away from a relationship, a romantic one, but. But I don't think you can walk away from children once they've come to trust you, once you are a member of their family. It's like that famous quote from Clueless, the movie. You know, you don't break up, you don't divorce children, you divorce the adult. So it is something to really like, actually consider. These conversations need to happen early and they have to happen with brutal honesty. Like, honestly, like brutal honesty. You cannot expect someone to change their mind around this. They might change their mind. You cannot expect them to. I read this really amazing writing piece from a relationship coach and relationship expert, and she said one of the biggest reasons that she sees marriages fall apart is because one person wants kids, one person doesn't, and they both think that the other person is going to change their mind. You don't have to know for sure, but if you do know, make sure you make that clear that that is what you want. Because again, it's all about resentment. Is a decision you make with the other person in mind, not yourself in mind, going to make you resent them later on, or can you take ownership of that decision as being yours? This asymmetry in life stages, it really does seem to be the biggest hurdle if you're in an age gap relationship. A very notable study in 2018 looked at the longitudinal data from thousands of Australian households and thousands of Australian marriages. And they found that whilst initial marital satisfaction might be higher for both men and women with younger spouses, that satisfaction does tend to decline more rapidly over time for couples with larger age gaps. And one of the speculations for this decline is precisely these different life stages and goals. For example, they suggest that couples of similar ages, they might be better able to understand each other, they might be able to better understand the developmental and personal chapter that their spouse is in, because they're also in it. The idea is that the bigger the age gap, the more likely the relationship will struggle with these phase of life related challenges. And this study really emphasizes, you know, age isn't just a number we've kept, we've said that so many times, it's a reflection of potentially divergent pathways and different priorities. And that might be the hurdle, that might be the thing that undoes these relationships more than any other factor. We need to also return to this issue of power dynamics because it is a hot topic for a reason. We tend to automatically assume that the older partner will hold more power due to life experience and financial stability or more extensive social capital. And in some cases, like, yes, this can be true. If one partner is significantly more wealthy or established, has more autonomy, they can kind of skew the balance in the relationship, but it's not a given. You know, a younger person, a 25 year old with a strong sense of self and clear boundaries and a great career and fierce independence, you know, just can be, it can be just as powerful and influential. Power isn't solely derived from age or income. But I do think that we need to protect ourselves against any kind of imbalance when power, power should be held by both people equally in different forms. We want the ratio of our contributions to the outcomes of the relationship to be equal to our partners. This is a classic theory, it's called equity theory. And essentially it says that we are motivated to maintain fairness in our relationships. And if one partner consistently feels like someone is making more of this decision, someone is not taking accountability, someone is not giving as much as they are receiving, that can create a particular imbalance. It also Comes down to resources, emotional labor, financial contributions, who gets to plan the dates, who picks the movies, who gets to make the life decisions when it is not 50 50. Dissatisfaction is almost always guaranteed for age gap relationships. I do think that achieving equity might require more explicit discussions because it may be that the older person does feel like they are more worthy of making decisions or can make decisions because they may be in a better elevated position. Do both partners feel heard? Do they feel like their needs being met? Do they feel respected? Do they feel valued for who they are and what they bring to the table? That is something that needs to constantly be calibrated in any relationship. This also leads me to talk about something called the teacher's student dynamic. And it's often the initial hook for the younger partner and why younger people find themselves with older people. They want their wisdom, they want their calm demeanor, they want their mentorship. They enjoy sharing experiences. The dynamic can become problematic quickly if the younger partner becomes overly dependent on the teacher or is constantly seeking approval or direction to the point that it's stifling their own growth and independence. If the older partner becomes overly controlling, maternalistic, paternalistic, or dismissive of the younger partner's opinions just because of their age, it transforms from a healthy mentorship into an unhealthy student teacher power imbalance. It's not supportive. It turns an equal partnership into a hierarchy. A healthy age gap relationship really flourishes when the teacher student role is fluid and reversible. The younger person is learning, the older person is learning, and they are growing together. I think this really brings me to discussing the main factor that is going to determine whether an age gap relationship is unhealthy or healthy. Whether it is going to work or not work. And that is whether the partners just assume things about each other rather than learning from each other. Do they just assume what the other person is going to do? Do they just assume the dynamic? Do they just assume that someone is going to guide them or someone is going to follow along? Do they just assume that one of them is the provider, one of them is the giver, one of them is the receiver? Do they just assume the future? You know, what might be an assumed next step for someone in their mid. In their mid-20s? You know, like. Like saving to go traveling for six months might be completely different to what is assumed for someone who is older, who might be saving for retirement? I don't know. What do older people say for saving for a house? Saving for something different? If they want different things and this is not discussed and either person is trying to force the other person to be on their path when they're not ready. That's insurmountable. It's never going to work. Both of them are going to be unhappy. And that is really when we see that very dangerous power dynamic take control. Okay, I feel like I've been quite doom and gloom for this last part. And the thing is, is that there are many very successful age gap relationships. Even if people don't understand them from the outside, on the inside, they don't just survive like, they really thrive. And these people are soulmates and they love each other. Why do they work? What makes a good age gap relationship versus a bad age gap relationship? We've talked about the bad, let's talk about the good. The most crucial factor, the most important factor in any relationship, but especially age gap ones, are shared values, genuine interests, and an undeniable sense of emotional compatibility. We get so fixated on the age number that we forget to ask the most fundamental question. Do they laugh at the same jokes? Do they have similar ideas about loyalty, kindness, compassion? Do they both agree on what truly constitutes a good life? Do they enjoy doing similar things? One of my favorite studies of all time that was published in 2022 looked at these huge data sets that came from couples, and they consistently found that overall relationship satisfaction is linked far less to things like age, race, and education level, and far more to things like personality compatibility and shared experiences. And one of the biggest factors that will prove whether a relationship will be successful or a couple will successful is this thing called perceived partner responsiveness. Do they get you? Do they truly care about your feelings? Do they engage with you? And there's an exercise to identify whether a relationship has this. It's a really simple exercise. You point out the window and you say, oh, look, there's a bird. And you see what your partner does. There's three options. They ignore you completely. They say something passive like, oh, that's nice, cool. But they don't really look. They don't really engage. Or they have an active response. They get up and they say, oh my God, where is it? What kind of bird? Oh, let me see. Oh, maybe we should do this. Maybe we should do that. What a beautiful bird. What noise is it making? What does it look like? They care about what you're seeing. They care about your life. They care about life through your eyes. I did this with my partner recently and he immediately. He didn't ask, let me see. He didn't. He wasn't like, oh, what does it look like he goes, well, now I need to build a birdhouse. Now we have to build the birdhouse. Like if there are birds outside. Well, and if you like the birds, you know, we need, we need that. And I was like, it just made me swoon because I was like, wow, it really shows that you are interested in this simply because I am interested in this. It try this with your partner at your own risk. But, you know, there is no formula for what makes a relationship work and what doesn't. You know, a 25 year old and a 45 year old can be in love for the same reason that a 25 year old and 25 year old are in love. It may have absolutely nothing to do with their birth year. The attraction, in many cases is simply based on finding another human who you connect with, who you click with, who is responsive to you, irrespective of when they were born. And those are the couples that succeed regardless of age and as long as they really have respect. That's like the secret to any relationship. Okay, we're gonna take a short break, but when we return, we have some listener questions and dilemmas, including a dilemma from a listener about her sister who was dating someone 30 years her senior. Questions around how to handle being a stepdad and what to do when your parent is dating someone your age. So all of that and more after this short break.
- [49:52]
Dexter Thomas
Are there any pictures of you online? I'm not just talking about Google. I'm talking anywhere.
- [49:57]
Unknown Analyst
Clear View scrapes together images from Facebook, from LinkedIn, from Venmo accounts.
- [50:03]
Dexter Thomas
That database is now being used by police departments all across the country to match criminal suspect photos. And sometimes it makes mistakes.
- [50:11]
Unknown Analyst
So in this one case, two of the search results that I think were in the top 10 of the search results were Michael Jordan, just a picture of Michael Jordan.
- [50:18]
Dexter Thomas
But cops are still using it to make arrests.
- [50:20]
Unknown Analyst
Police, they are trusting this software to lead them to the right suspect. But you're not even being told that it was used, let alone given any of the details about how it works.
- [50:30]
Dexter Thomas
This is not Minority Report. This is happening right now. People are getting arrested and doing, doing actual time in jail after being picked out by a computer. I'm Dexter Thomas, host of Kill Switch, where every Wednesday we explain the right now of living in the future. You can turn off the computer, but do not let the computer turn you off. Listen to Kill switch in the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [50:53]
George M. Johnson
This Pride Month, we are not just celebrating, we're fighting back. I'm George M. Johnson, and my book All Boys Aren't Blue was just named the most banned book in America. If the culture wars have taught me anything, it's that pride is protest. And on my podcast, Fighting Words, we talk to people who use their voices to resist, disrupt, and make our community stronger.
- [51:19]
Gemma
This year, we are showing up and showing out.
- [51:22]
Dexter Thomas
You need people being like, no, you're not going to tell us what to do.
- [51:26]
George M. Johnson
This regime is coming down on us and I don't want to it just survive. I want to thrive. You'll hear from trailblazers like Bob the Drag Queen to freedom Angelica Ross.
- [51:37]
Gemma
We ready to fight? I'm ready to fight.
- [51:38]
George M. Johnson
And Gabrielle Union.
- [51:40]
Gemma
Hi, George.
- [51:40]
George M. Johnson
And storytellers with wisdom to spare. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [51:50]
Unknown Tech Critic
OpenAI is a financial abomination, a thing that should not be an aberration, a symbol of rot at the heart of Silicon Valley. And I'm gonna tell you why on my show, Better Offline, the rudest show in the tech industry, where we're breaking down why OpenAI, along with other AI companies, are dead set on lying to your boss that they can take your job. I'm also gonna be talking with the greatest minds in the industry about all the other ways the rich and powerful are ruining the computer. Listen to Better offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts. Wherever you happen to get your podcasts.
- [52:20]
Erica and Mila
The OGs of Uncensored Motherhood are back and badder than ever. I'm Erica. And I'm Mila. And we're the hosts of the Good Mother Mom's Bad Choices podcast, brought to you by the Black Effect Podcast Network every Wednesday. Historically, men talk too much and women have quietly listened. And all that stops here. If you like witty women, then this is your tribe with guests like Corinne Stephens.
- [52:41]
Gemma
I've never seen so many women protect predatory men. And then me too happen. And then everybody else want to get pissed off because the white said it was okay.
- [52:47]
Erica and Mila
Problem?
- [52:48]
George M. Johnson
My oldest daughter, her first day in ninth grade, and I called to act how I was doing.
- [52:53]
Gemma
She was like, oh, dad, all they.
- [52:54]
George M. Johnson
Were doing was talking about your thing in class. I ruined my baby's first day of high school.
- [52:59]
Erica and Mila
And Slumflower, what turns me on is.
- [53:02]
Gemma
When a man sends me money. Like, I feel the moisture between my legs when a man sends me money, I'm like, oh, my God, it's go time. You actually sent it.
- [53:11]
Erica and Mila
Listen to the Good Moms Bad Choices podcast every Wednesday on the Black Effect podcast network, the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you go to find your podcast.
- [53:20]
Gemma
So, as you guys know, every episode we have started doing listener questions where I go on Instagram, I tell you what topics we're going to be discussing and I say shoot. Shoot for the stars. What do you guys want to know? What do you want to hear about? What dilemmas do you have so that I can answer them in the episode instead of waiting till the episode comes out to kind of answer your questions? This episode we got a lot of dilemmas, a lot of dilemmas from listeners who are dealing with some prickly age gap situations. This first story comes from. From. I'm not going to say her name, but someone whose sister is dating someone 30 years her senior. Hi Gemma. I'm having a little bit of an issue with something going on in my life right now. My sister, who is two years older than me, is currently dating someone who is 57. She is 27 and for whatever reason, I know I shouldn't, but I find this situation very icky. She wants to bring him to an upcoming birthday party that I'm holding and I'm really not comfortable with that. I know that they are serious and that they have been together for some time now, but I'm unsure about his intentions with her and I feel like I should say something or I should show in some way my disapproval for this relationship. On the other hand, I really want to be supportive and I love her and we are very close. Close. This person has put a real buffer between me and her and it's making me deeply uncomfortable. What should I do? This is a really hard situation. Let me tell you honestly what I would be doing and then what I think my higher self would want me to do and maybe what you should do. If my sister came to me and said that she was dating someone in her 50s, I would immediately feel really uncomfortable about it. But it would just be a knee jerk reaction. I probably wouldn't be happy about it. I probably would tell her and we would probably have a huge fight and it would be very uncomfortable. That's what I would do if I wasn't in my right mind and wasn't thinking properly. As a more rational perspective, I think what you need to say is I think you really need to ask yourself some questions. Is she happy? Do I trust in her ability to handle situations like this on her own? Do I trust her judgment about these situations? Is she being safe financially? You know, is she being safe in terms of Life decisions? Is she making decisions that you think she genuinely wants to make or is it being guided by this man? Does she want kids? Is that a discussion that you think that they are having? This is just all questions to ask yourself to make you feel more at ease with the fact that she is a grown woman. Nothing you say or do will probably force them to break up. If anything, it's an age old, it's an age old tale that you tell someone you don't like their boyfriend and you're the one who's going to get cut out of their life. So if you are genuinely worried about her and her safety or her well being or that she's making a mistake, staying close to her and being able to monitor that as someone who is on her good side is probably better. You know it's going to be worse if you isolate her by saying that you don't approve when maybe at this point nothing is actually wrong. Maybe they really do just have a great relationship and you just are yet to understand it. Maybe you will come around to it. Maybe you'll see it in a different light later on. You've also got to remember like it's her life and she has to make some of those mistakes herself. As much as we love our siblings and we love our friends and we love the people we love, we cannot not control their lives for them. Maybe this is just something that she has to experience. Maybe it will turn out really, really well. You don't know. I would say my higher self would say ignore the instinct to get angry and to say something and just observe and wait to see if there is really a reason that you need to step in. And good luck. Our second question of the day. How do you deal with dating someone who already has kids? I'm not ready to be a step parent, but I feel like I'll have to be because I love this person so much.
- [57:32]
Unknown Analyst
Much.
- [57:33]
Gemma
That is a crazy dilemma and something that I have personally never encountered. I've never been a step parent. I've never been a parent. What I really think that you should be doing is having as many open conversations with your partner as possible. Firstly, you need to get clear on whether they see a really serious future with you. Because if they don't, there's no point worrying about not investing in their family if they have no plan to make you part of that family. You also need to really ask yourself, am I prepared for my life to fully change once you are a parent, even if you are a step parent, that is a huge Responsibility. Take some time to really think about whether you are ready for that life chapter, because it is. It will be the end of some things that you can do. End of a life that you may have thought you were going to have. Be really serious with yourself around whether which life you want more and which life, and whether you think this new life is one that you are ready for. It's a lot of responsibility. You need to have really open discussions around what your role in their life is going to be, is going to be, what their relationship with their ex partner is like, what your relationship with their ex partner will be like, what your relationship with their kids will be like, custody arrangements, time apart, whether your plans for the future, lineup, if you want to go travel, like, are you gonna have to go travel with the kids? Like you. The more information, the better. I also think that, you know, if you're gonna walk away, now's the time before you have met them. Best of luck. I think that's really, really tough. I know you'll make the right decision, though, and I'm sure that the fact that you're already thinking about it means that you're going to be. Be an amazing stepparent if that's what you choose to do, or you're going to make the right choice for you and be an amazing person without this person as well, even if it's a hard choice. All right, our third question for the day. Help. My dad is dating a woman who is my age. Technically one year older than me, but still she's 26. What do I say? I can get the discomfort here as much as I have been in pro age gap relationships. Of course, healthy age gap relationships. This does feel kind of uncomfortable. I think I would give you the same advice as I gave the first person, which is, until it becomes a problem, don't express an opinion, but definitely have strong boundaries around when you see her, if she's invited to family events, what you guys talk about, really be really clear that, like, she is not your friend, she is your. Your father's girlfriend until the relationship has been proven to be stable, until you can really see the direction that it's going in. Again, you know, it's kind of hard because it's none of your business, but it is also a whole lot of your business. So I think just like, hopefully you have siblings who you can talk to this about. Be welcoming, but she doesn't have to be your friend. You don't really have to invest in their relationship emotionally until it's proven that it's gone beyond a point and just be really clear around like what you will and won't talk about with this person. What your ex, what is what your father expects from you in terms of being around this person. And if he's expecting too much, just be like, hey, I find this weird and if you can't see the fact that this is weird, you're gonna have to deal with that. But I need to protect my peace against the weirdness of this. And yeah, hopefully we can have mature adult discussions about it. But yeah, I can. Gosh. Wishing you guys all a lot of luck. There's a lot of complicated relationships out there. This is what this episode is really teaching me. But I know you can handle it and I get your discomfort. But the relationship might not be forever. Just it might not stand the test of time. Go see a therapist about the more complex Freudian parts of that and my God, I just. Why? Is my only advice Good luck. I really feel like that's all I can say. Good luck. I'm ready for our final question. I actually got this quite a lot which is is it true that women are more emotionally mat than men and develop faster hence why they are attracted to older partners compared to someone their own age? So this is a myth. Slash, I don't even know if it's a myth. This is just an idea that has been circling around for a while. It is true that girls often mature faster than boys at a younger age. So basically when we are teenagers, when we're children, girls, their brains will develop faster, they will gain better working memory, greater emotional regulation, better cognitive skills earlier compared to boys. There is a debate whether that is because of social conditioning or because of just biological blueprint that's just how women's brains work. Or is it that their learning environment is making it so that they pick up on these skills faster because more is expected of them compared to boys. However, as we get older, around the age of 18 to 22, the gap definitely starts to become smaller. It definitely starts to become narrower. So that men and women have a very similar intellectual capacity, a very similar level of emotional maturity, or their brains have a similar capacity for emotional maturity, similar levels of working memory, etc, etc, etc. Etc. So I don't know whether this is entirely true. One study did find that men don't reach peak mental maturity until 43 whilst women typically mature around 32. But I think there needs to be more research. I do think that what it really comes down is personal preferences and to maybe the conditioned preferences of women to get serious quicker, especially since there's a real stigma around being single, the perceived pressure on women to have children younger because of the biological clock factor. But yeah, it's a very complex question. I would say right now it's definitely based on it's an individual thing rather than a generalized thing that we can say women are more mature than men. We can prove this using these scientific and statistical models. Therefore, that's why why women date older. But it's a very, very interesting question. I hope you guys really enjoyed this episode. It's definitely complex. It's layered. Again, I really welcome disagreement. If you have a different perspective on this, I really don't have all the answers, so leave a comment below. Your experience in age gap relationships, the experiences of friends of yours, something, an argument or an element of this you didn't think we covered just so that we can keep the discussion going on down there. I just hope this episode gave you some food for thought, some insights, perhaps a gentle nudge towards rethinking any stereotypes that you may have, because I definitely had them. But as always, make sure that you leave a five star review that you are following us wherever you are listening on Apple podcasts on Spotify. It really does help new people find us. And that is such a gift, such a blessing to have new listeners wherever they are in the world and whatever content they choose to engage with. Just having more members of the community is always brilliant. Make sure that you are following me on Instagram Psychology Podcast if you want to contribute to our listener questions. These ones were juicy, so if you've got another question on this episode or another episode that's coming up, that's the best place to deliver it. But until next time, stay safe, be kind, be gentle with yourself, stay and we will talk very, very soon. Hello my lovely listeners. By now you know the more knowledge we have about ourselves and the way our bodies work, the more empowered and in control we are. And this is also true when it comes to our sexual health and what to do after unprotected sex. That's where Plan B comes in. It's emergency contraception with no age requirement that helps prevent pregnancy before it starts. And because it works only temporarily delaying ovulation, it won't impact your ability to get pregnant in the future. We love a backup plan that puts us in control because the more we know, the more power we have. Learn more@planb1step.com users directed OpenAI is a.
- [66:19]
Unknown Tech Critic
Financial abomination, A thing that should not be an Aberration, a symbol of rot at the heart of Silicon Valley. And I'm going to tell you why on my show, Better Offline, the rudest show in the tech industry where. Where we're breaking down why OpenAI, along with other AI companies, are dead set on lying to your boss that they can take your job. I'm also going to be talking with the greatest minds in the industry about all the other ways the rich and powerful are ruining the computer. Listen to Better offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts. Wherever you happen to get your podcasts.
- [66:48]
Dexter Thomas
Are there any pictures of you online? Then you could already be in a massive police database without even knowing it.
- [66:54]
Unknown Analyst
Clearview scrapes together images From Facebook, from LinkedIn, from Venmo account accounts.
- [67:00]
Dexter Thomas
I'm Dexter Thomas, host of Kill Switch, a podcast about how living in the future is affecting us right now.
- [67:06]
Unknown Analyst
Police, they are trusting this software with this magical ability to lead them to the right suspect.
- [67:11]
Dexter Thomas
In this episode, we dive into how cops are using AI and facial recognition and sometimes getting it wrong and putting innocent people behind bars.
- [67:19]
Unknown Analyst
So if your accuser is this algorithm, but you're not even being told that it was used, let alone given any of the details about how it works.
- [67:28]
Dexter Thomas
Listen to Kill Switch on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [67:35]
Erica and Mila
The OGs of uncensored motherhood are back and better than ever. I'm Erica. And I'm Mila. And we're the hosts of the Good Moms Bad Choices podcast, brought to you by the Black Effect Podcast Network every Wednesday. Yeah, we're moms, but not your mommy. Historically, men talk too much and women have quietly listened. And all that stops here. If you like witty women, then this is your try. Listen to the Good Moms Bad Choices podcast every Wednesday on the Black Effect podcast network, the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you go to find your podcast.
- [68:05]
Gemma
This is an iHeart podcast.