← The Psychology of your 20s
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- [00:00]
Dr. Anna
This is an I heart podcast. I truly don't think I've ever had as many events as I do right now and Nair's shower cream has been not just a lifesaver but a time saver as well. Because I don't know about you, I just can't be bothered with shaving anymore, especially as I've been trying to move house and do a million other things. Nair is the number one hair removal brand and their body and shower creams. Firstly they actually smell delicious whilst working so well to get rid of all of my hair. When I'm tight on time I use the shower cream in infused with coconut oil and it's also so gentle on my skin, I feel so silky afterwards and it's free of dyes, parabens, phthalates and sulfates. So get ready for summer buy now at all major retailers. What happens when Delta Airlines sends four creators around the world to find out what is the true power of travel? It's these small moments of intention, right?
- [00:55]
Delta Airlines Host
Not just people to places and destinations is connecting people to other people, other cultures and ultimately experiences that can't be replicated located.
- [01:05]
Dr. Anna
Find out more about how travel can support well being on this special episode of the Psychology of your twenties presented by Delta Fly and Live Better. Listen wherever you get your podcasts do.
- [01:15]
Mandy Money
We really need another podcast with a condescending finance bro trying to tell us how to spend our own money? No thank you. Instead, check out Brown Ambition. Each week I, your host Mandy Money gives you real talk, real advice with a heavy dose of I feel useless. Like on Fridays when I take your questions for the Baqa. Whether you're trying to invest for your future, navigate a toxic workplace. I got you. Listen to Brown ambition on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast. Your entire identity has been fabricated. Your beloved brother goes missing without a trace. You discover the depths of your mother's illness. I'm Dani Shapiro and these are just a few of the powerful stories I'll be mining on our upcoming 12th season of Family Secrets. We continue to be moved and inspired by our guests and their courageously told stories. Listen to Family Secrets Season 12 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [02:20]
Dr. Anna
Hello everybody and welcome back to the psychology of your 20s, the podcast where we talk through some of the big life changes and transitions of our 20s and what they mean for our psychology. Hello everybody. Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to the podcast. New listeners, old listeners, wherever you are in the World, it is so great to have you here back for another episode as we, of course break down the psychology of our 20s. Guys, I'm nervous for today's episode, I really am, because I think I am tackling my most controversial topic and my most controversial episode yet. So much so that I actually kind of went back and forth as to whether I wanted to do this episode for a few months. Now, do I talk about the male loneliness epidemic as a woman or do I just leave it? Do I just, do I give my opinion? Do I dive into the research or do I let someone else kind of tackle that dumpster fire? As of about a week ago, I had kind of decided that this topic was one that I wasn't going to discuss on the podcast. But then I had a conversation with my friend Emily. We were in the car and we were discussing this for, I would say, literally over an hour. All the different angles, the male friendship angle, the misogyny angle, the co ed school angle, the historical angle, and just from a purely a pure fascination point of view, like, I could not resist doing this topic. I feel like my favorite episodes are the ones that are making a personal mark in my own life. This is one of those things. So today we're going to do it. We're going to talk about the male loneliness epidemic, what it is, the ways it is very much valid, and also what it is not. Of course, whilst we do that, we're going to break it down through the lens of psychology and we're going to use academic, research, peer reviewed studies, as well as some anecdotal evidence as well to really understand what is going on. I feel like this phenomena is talked about so much online at the moment, but often in a very opinionated manner in a way that can also quickly become very divisive. And trust me, I myself have strong opinions about this, but I also think we need a clearer kind of bird's eye view of what's really going on societally. I will also say, if you equally have a strong opinion about this as I do, please come into this episode with an open mind. Just put your viewpoint aside for a second and if you come out still firmly believing what you initially believed, share it below in a kind, constructive way. Share it below. This episode will probably not be the last time that I talk about this. So I am actually very happy to have my mind changed to hear different perspectives, especially from my male listeners. But without further ado, let's get into the psychology of the male loneliness epidemic. So let me start off by Giving a bit of an overview of what the male loneliness epidemic actually is and more importantly, how it differs from the general loneliness epidemic that is afflicting many, if not all people. Firstly, loneliness is not something that we can quickly dismiss in any form. Loneliness is brutal. Not feeling supported or seen or loved can really strip a human being of their reason for being and a sense of meaning in the world, a sense of a sense that they matter, which we all need at the end of the day. And this, the sense that we don't matter, this sense that we are not supported, is becoming more common than ever. To the point that loneliness has been declared an international health emergency. There have been serious health consequences linked back to the prolonged experience of loneliness. There is one very infamous study that concluded that loneliness may be as bad and as dangerous for you as smoking a pack of cigarettes a day. I think we often think about loneliness as something that creeps up the older we get. But the worrying thing about the current state of loneliness is that it's impacting young people more than older generations. With around 47% of people under the age of 35 saying they haven't made a new friend in the past 12 months and 30% of them saying that they wouldn't know how to. And since we typically thought that this younger generation was perhaps more immune to it than older generations, this is why, and this is what has people very, very worried. So I talked about this in my book, in my chapter on loneliness. It's actually my favorite chapter in my book. The biggest factors contributing to this are things like technology. A study from Harvard actually found that 73% of those surveyed felt that technology, specifically social media, was contributing to a state of loneliness. For them specifically, it is promoting something that we call social snacking, where because of social media and its accessibility, we get these kind of like bite sized interactions with people, none of which are truly nourishing. But they like kind of semi sustain us until we get to a point where we realize that we are very nutrient deficient. We are very deficient in terms of social connectedness and a real sense of belonging. Another factor is actually being overworked, being too busy, too tired, too high functioning to socialize. People have more to do and a greater sense of responsibility than ever. An individualistic society was something else that was named by about 58% of people in this same survey. Basically they said people are becoming more selfish, they're becoming more self centered, they don't want to do stuff for others, they don't want to be around others, and that kind of links to the final. And one of the biggest factors that people cited, which was a lack of community spaces, a lack of community environments, a lack of community rituals that previous generations have had. Things like church, things like dances, like fairs, like local shops that, you know, everyone went to, places and events where people could connect and the time to connect. All of these things, plus many other factors that we are most certainly going to get to, they are all contributing to the general loneliness epidemic that I think each and every one of us has felt. And it is very indicative of how disconnected we are and how isolated so many people feel. And this, like, this is a serious problem. This is a problem that very much claims lives. So how exactly does the male loneliness epidemic that people keep talking about, how does that differ from what it seems everyone else is experiencing? Well, the claim of the male loneliness epidemic is that men, specifically young men, are actually more lonely than any other group. And that the reason this is is because they are falling behind socially, which I agree with, but specifically when it comes to dating. The thing is, attention on the male loneliness epidemic to begin with was actually a really positive thing. It was seeking to make mental health more aware of the fact that they could reach out, that they would be welcomed and that they would be heard. It was trying to encourage men to become more vulnerable by seeing that not being vulnerable was a health issue. It was asking us to rethink why men were socially conditioned to seek less support, to see their mates less, to have less deep relationships. All very important questions to raise. Nowadays, though, it is transformed into something that is totally different from that conversation. And honestly, what it has transformed into, from what it was initially intended to be, means that the way the male loneliness epidemic is talked about is a huge disappointment for straight men. In particular, the claim is that because they are having less sex, because they are not dating as much, because they aren't getting married, because they're getting rejected, they are experiencing greater rates of loneliness as a result. And the discussions around why this is the case is because women, well, women won't give them a chance anymore. Women won't date them. Rejection is to blame. That is what is causing this male loneliness epidemic separate from, from the societal loneliness epidemic that we know we are experiencing. And here is the thing, I really don't think that this framing of male loneliness is correct. First off, and you know what, people might get frustrated at me for bringing this up, but I can only speak facts. The rates of male loneliness are no greater or bigger than the loneliness impacting every other group. On earth. I'm going to break down exactly the research that proves this. And secondly, I think loneliness is actually not the issue here. It is a case whereby certain groups of men are learning that their actions, their attitudes, their behaviors have consequences and not wanting to own up to that. So blaming their unfavorable situation on someone else, blaming it on the women who don't want to date them, who won't sleep with them, rather than understanding that amongst many other factors, they also have a personal responsibility to be the kind of person who others want to be around, who others want to have a relationship with, who others feel respected by. The male loneliness epidemic as it is currently painted right now, I actually, I actually think is an accountability epidemic. And let me explain why I believe this in the most evidence based, nicest way possible. Because I don't think anyone deserves to be isolated. I don't think anyone deserves to feel lonely. But I equally think that the attention the male loneliness epidemic is getting actually takes away from really addressing loneliness for men, for women, for any gender at its root cause. So firstly, let's return to that first kind of statement I made, which is that men are actually not the loneliest gender. So there is evidence that if we were to make it a competition, as people who like to claim a male loneliness epidemic seem to do, by prefacing it with male if we were to make it a competition, women are actually experiencing loneliness at a greater level than men. Here's some examples of the evidence that has been gathered around this. One such example is from Aylin Graham. She's an associate professor of social sciences at Northwestern University. She analyzed nine longitudinal studies of loneliness and found that women are actually the ones that report being lonelier than men. Now, self reporting is actually one of the only ways that we can analyze loneliness. Loneliness is one of those weird emotions where it's actually very hard to objectively analyze. It is a completely subjective feeling. You could have two friends and feel like the most supported person in the world, or you could have a million friends and feel like the loneliest person in the world. So it has to basically be measured through self reporting. And across these nine studies she looked at, there were more than 128,000 participants from over 20 countries between the ages of 13 to 103. So not a small sample size. And women consistently were the lonelier gender. Another 2024 study looked at gender differences in loneliness over a 15 year time period. A longitudinal study, again, women were lonelier. And then a new Pew Research center survey from January this year looked at over 6,000 adults in the US and it found that once again, compared with women, men did not report being any more lonely than their counterparts. So that's three different sources. Three different sources that say, actually, if we were going to make it a competition, why is the word male in front of this? And I could honestly tell you countless others that say the same thing. So why aren't we calling it a female loneliness epidemic? You know what, I'm going to say it here. I actually don't think we need to call it male or female. The point I'm trying to make is that this shouldn't be a competition. It actually doesn't matter. Prevalence to me, doesn't matter. It is a societal issue. What I bring issue to is the fact that we are trying to make it a competition and the fact that this specific definition of loneliness for men is the only one that seems to get the attention. This kind of brings me to explaining why this specific depiction of loneliness as a male issue, as a young male issue, is perhaps not correct. I want to say if you are a man and you are listening to this episode and you feel lonely, I totally feel your pain as a human being. Social isolation is super hard. This is not to invalidate your experiences. I just want to contextualize this and say again that this is not a gendered issue and it shouldn't be made to be. So let's really quickly revisit what many people claim to be the causes of the male loneliness epidemic these days. Not to sound like, you know, like a. A broken record, but I just want to make it super clear. The current explanation that I am addressing is that men don't have girlfriends, men don't have sex, women don't want to date men, and therefore men don't have that same level of company that they thought they would expect. This is what a lot of people in the red pill male right space is really saying is causing this issue. Now, if people were to focus on the fact that men aren't allowed to be as vulnerable as women and that's what's causing the issue, or if people wanted to focus on the fact that men lack healthy male role models, or they wanted to bring up the fact that male mental health, male eating disorders, male substance abuse issues are on the rise and that's the reason for loneliness, I would have absolutely no issue in agreeing and completely supporting that statement. I would agree with you entirely. This is a real problem. It's heartbreaking. But that is not the discussion that we're having. I would totally agree with you that society has failed many men in the same ways and for the same reasons that it has failed women and people of all genders by making us believe we have to fit into a pigeonhole, by making men believe that they have to be strong and tough and they can't whine and they have to be brave. The patriarchy has failed men in this respect, just as it has failed women in other respects, in many, many other ways as well. But that's not the focus. The focus is on what a certain group of men feel they should be entitled to, which they are not, which is women's bodies, women's autonomy, women's time, women's energy, women's lives. I know this is, of course, a psychology podcast, but let's do a bit of a history lesson here. For a long, long time, women depended on men for their existence. Or maybe I should say, like, for their comfortable existence beyond just surviving women. May I remind you, like, couldn't get a credit card or a line of credit until, like, 1984 in Australia. That means, like, my grandmother, my mother, someone, two people who are still very much alive and kicking, they weren't able to borrow money. They had their wallets, and there was something in their wallet. There's something in my wallet that they didn't have in their wallet. Like access to financial freedom. There was also the case that, you know, women couldn't get a job without their husband or father's permission. They were also socially outcast if they weren't married at a certain age. Every single part of their survival came down to marriage and came down to partnership with a man. Even the most disrespectful, horrible man could find someone who wanted to be with him because he was her lifeline, he was her only ticket in. It's very simple economics around demand and supply, right? If the only way a woman can access a certain type of lifestyle is to grab a man and hope that he sticks or hope that he continues to love her, the supply is going to keep meeting that demand. Like, the demand is going to mean that more men are being chosen, even if they perhaps probably didn't deserve to be. This is known in psychology, it's known in sociology as the patriarchal bargain, Basically referring to the strategies and compromises women needed to make for a greater level of security and autonomy whilst still being under the control of men. Now, as we know, women have won themselves so many freedoms over the years, and so our reliance on men has. Has diminished. And so that means that bargain is no longer in men's favor. Now, if we don't need a man out of necessity, we now get picky. As we should be. As we totally should be. If you're going to choose a live partner, you want someone who will make your life better. Especially when you've already achieved a lot yourself. I look at my single friends and I'm like, they have money, they have a life they love, they're training for marathons, they own their own homes, they volunteer. They are well respected in their community, they are beautiful, they are hot. And the kind of guy who doesn't even respect you or who thinks of you as only something that could make him less lonely or is only interested in sex, he's just not going to cut it like the bar is too high for him. If my life as a single woman is so amazing, why would I want to be with someone who doesn't respect me? Why would I want to be with someone who sees getting a girlfriend or getting a wife or getting a partner as something to tick off their to do list? And I just happen to be there. It sounds harsh, but I am sure there are certain men who feel the same way about women. I saw this comment on Reddit actually that there are certain men who will be like, you know, girls only want a guy because of money. Girls are so shallow. Girls, like, they just reject me. You know, they, their standards are too high. And then, you know, someone will say to them, like, oh, what about Brenda? You know Brenda, she seems to really care about you and she's always there for you and she's amazing. And then the guy will be like, well, you know, she's too fat. No, not her again. It's such a restricted approach to connection that actually has deep roots in patriarchy. And yet some people just don't want to acknowledge that and want to make it a very singular, one dimensional issue. Women won't date me. That's why I'm lonely. I actually read this fascinating article about voluntary celibacy being on the rise amongst straight women. A Psychology Today article I found said that one in six women are voluntarily celibate. And a lot of them say they have never been happier than ever. We've gotten to a point where our sexuality doesn't have to be a bargaining tool anymore. We can just exist as a fully fulfilled solo woman and hopefully have a lot of the freedoms that, you know, our ancestors didn't have. As more and more women, you know, feel that way, certain types of men are going to become more and more isolated. Not because of a woman's discernment, but because of their inability to adapt and grow and take personal responsibility. Okay, we're going to take a short break here, but when we return, let's dive into this even deeper as well as some of the potential solutions. Stay with us. What happens when Delta Air Lines sends four creators around the world to find out what is the true power of travel? I think it helped me sort of, like, get grounded.
- [23:19]
No Such Thing Hosts (Manny, Noah, Devin)
I think I unlocked some, like, childhood dream.
- [23:22]
Dr. Anna
Turn my stress into excitement. Take that gratitude from those experiences into your daily life. That's why I connected with Dr. Henry Ting, Delta's chief health and wellness officer and instrumental voice behind this travel experiment. Traveling in general is going to give you that social and cultural and psychological and emotional expansion. Yeah.
- [23:44]
Delta Airlines Host
You know, at Delta, we like to say no one better connects the world. It's connecting not just people to destinations. It's connecting people to other people, other cultures, and ultimately experiences that can't really be replicated.
- [23:58]
Dr. Anna
Find out more about how travel can support well being on this special episode of the Psychology of youf 20s, presented by Delta. Fly and Live Better. Listen. Wherever you get your podcasts, imagine that.
- [24:09]
No Such Thing Hosts (Manny, Noah, Devin)
You'Re on an airplane and all of a sudden you hear this.
- [24:12]
Dr. Anna
Attention, passengers. The pilot is having an emergency, and we need someone, anyone, to land this plane.
- [24:20]
No Such Thing Hosts (Manny, Noah, Devin)
Think you could do it? It turns out that nearly 50% of men think that they could land the plane with the help of air traffic control. And they're saying, like, okay, pull this, pull that, turn this. I can do my eyes closed. I'm Manny.
- [24:35]
Mandy Money
I'm Noah.
- [24:35]
Dr. Anna
This is Devin.
- [24:36]
No Such Thing Hosts (Manny, Noah, Devin)
And on our new show, no Such Thing, we get to the bottom of questions like these. Join us as we talk to the leading expert on overconfidence.
- [24:45]
Dr. Anna
Those who lack expertise lack the expertise they need to recognize that they lack expertise.
- [24:52]
No Such Thing Hosts (Manny, Noah, Devin)
And then as we try the whole thing out for real. Wait, what? Oh, that's the run, right? I'm looking at this thing. See, listen to no Such thing on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [25:06]
Mandy Money
Hey, sis, what if I could promise you you never had to listen to a condescending finance bro tell you how to manage your money Again? Welcome to Brown Ambition. This is the hard part. When you pay down those credit cards, if you haven't gotten to the bottom of why you were racking up credit or turning to credit cards, you may just recreate the same problem a year from now when you do feel like you are bleeding from these high interest rates. I would start shopping for a debt consolidation loan starting with your local credit union. Shopping around online looking for some online lenders because they tend to have fewer fees and be more affordable. Listen, I am not here to judge. It is so expensive in these streets. I 100% can see how in just a few months you can have this much credit card debt. When it weighs on you, it's really easy to just like stick your head in the sand. It's nice and dark in the sand. Even if it's scary, it's not going to go away just because you're avoiding it. And in fact, it may get even worse. For more judgment free money advice, listen to Brown ambition on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [26:07]
Dr. Anna
So you can't get the trip out of the group chat. We've all been there, but did you know there's actually a pretty easy solution? EF Ultimate Break is a group travel company for 18 to 35 year olds with over 140 itineraries all over the world. Just sign up and recruit six or more friends for a trip and you'll save hundreds or even thousands of dollars. You could even travel for free. Learn more@efultimatebreak.com that's efultimatebreak.com and turn the group chat into a group trip So I think in the situation I was just describing, the group explanation for male loneliness being that men aren't getting laid. It's not a loneliness issue, it's an entitlement issue. I also think that it's rather sad that romantic intimacy is one of the only forms of social connection and contact that men are supposed to find fulfilling. And so they prioritize seeking out someone they desire and who they can win over, rather than focusing on healthy male friendship, rather than focusing on being friends with women, on being led by curiosity rather than desire. So when I was researching this episode, I actually went deep diving into some of the red pill male rights groups online. And here is a Reddit post that I came across that I think captures this perfectly. This man, he was ranting about why women don't like him and this is the thing he said that really caught my attention and I think gets to the crux of this issue. He said, I talk to them with the intention of getting to know them and be friendly and then I'll show romantic interest. And as soon as I do, I'm rejected. I have a few female friends, but they treat me like a little brother and it's annoying that Female friends won't recognize me as a man just because they aren't sexually attracted to me. This, to me seems to be a huge part of this issue. A certain type of individual like this only being friendly to women so that he can make a move on them, having female friends but then getting mad because they're not sexually attracted to him. It just shows that somewhere in the back of his mind he's always looking to date them and he never sees them as his equal in friendship. And so I feel bad for this kind of person. Like you're completely cut out from a whole other side of society, a whole other group of people who are totally going to be there for you platonically. But because you don't want something platonic, you have to make it romantic. You don't get access to that. There is this somewhat over reliance, I think, on female romantic partners to fulfill a man's every social and emotional need. When as a human being you need a network that is more broad than that. A woman cannot be your only solution. But also you should be able to provide that support back to your partner. Like they aren't just something to have so that you feel less lonely. If you only want a girlfriend to feel less lonely or for unconditional love, get a dog. Get a dog. Trust me, the pounds are full. You will find what you are looking for there. Like, women are more complex than just something that you want to date. This is the thing. I have such amazing male friends who I genuinely love and admire and I'm thinking about them in my mind right now and I'm just like, wow, you guys are such great examples of masculinity. Because they, for many reasons, but because they see women as their equals, sometimes even as their superiors, they see women as people they admire that they want to be like and that they don't just want to sleep with. And guess what? Separate to that, when they do pursue someone, they get dates, they have partners who genuinely fulfill them. They're engaged, they're married, they're not lonely because they have an attitude that makes connecting with them possible. Because they are nice people. And again, it's not just like that. A man is, he's lonely because he's awful. There are a lot of men who are lonely and the fact they can't find love is a part of that. The same way that there are a lot of women or non binary people who are lonely because they really want a life partner, but they aren't then blaming the person or people not picking them for their entire circumstances and doing nothing to change it. Humans have a natural desire for intimacy. I'm not saying that you need to be okay with never finding love and to get over it. And otherwise you deserve to be lonely. No, it's in your DNA to want someone to love and to love you. It's in our nature to have someone and have a group of people who care about us. But you are also not entitled to it from an individual just because historically it was easier to come by for someone in your circumstances. And you can't then turn around and make it sound like not getting a date is an epidemic and everyone's a problem. Because let's be real, there are a ton of lonely single women out there who have never dated someone, who have been rejected countless times, and I can promise you they are not on 4chan boards spewing violence and hate and saying that all men are the problem. So what have the consequences of the male loneliness epidemic been? And let me say again, not the general loneliness epidemic that includes men, but the specifically marketed loneliness epidemic of men not getting dates. What. What has the harm of this been? I think a big consequence of the publicity this is getting is that certain men are being pushed deeper and deeper into the manosphere, whereby the loudest voices and people, the people with the biggest platforms are fellow men who are jacked and they're really handsome and they claim to be rich and they're telling you that you're not the problem. They're painting women as villains, either explicitly or implicitly. And that is not the case. I genuinely feel like a deep level of concern and worry for young men who end up in these spaces, because I know what's waiting for them is more loneliness. It becomes harder and harder to find someone, harder to connect with others meaningfully, harder to realize that this person does not have your best interests at heart. By spewing this narrative to you, the further you are indoctrinated, it also will ironically, logically further kill your chances of finding love. Because guess what? Most women don't want to be with someone who inherently blames her for his deeper issues. According to the United Nations Convoy on Women, the manosphere, as we call it, is actually making misogyny more mainstream. It's making it a more widely held belief system. And here's the kicker. Individuals who feel a sense of social isolation are more likely to fall victim to it. If you want an even scarier statistic that doesn't scare you enough, about 2/3 of young men regularly engage or expose to these kinds of Influences online and engagement with these kinds of individuals is linked to greater levels of digital abuse towards women. Again, these male influencers are great at their jobs, let's just call it as it is. They are great at influencing and they are also great at providing an echo chamber without actually helping these men and without actually improving their chances of being able to positively engage with these people. I would be more on board with these kind of male influences if they actually talked about mental health. If they actually said, hey, you're lonely, let's create like a volunteer group. If they actually were like, let's actually encourage you to set a goal for yourself and didn't always bring it back to so that you can be more like a man and you can get women. It's just inauthentic and this is harmful for everyone. It's harmful for men who are looking for a lifeline and who could really benefit from some real, like some real mental health support and positive, like male role models. They just end up getting more isolated and lonely. It's also harmful for women. It's harmful for women who end up being victims of this women are the villain idea. This women are the villain rhetoric that further allows people to dehumanize them. And I can say this right now, this type of behavior, this pipeline from lonely man into digital abuse against women, it's happened to me. Like I've seen this firsthand. I had a video go viral last year, a really innocent video about how I want to date a man who is self aware. The top three comments on that video were three separate men calling me fat, calling me ugly, calling me stupid, calling me a slut, saying they would never date me, all because I said I would. Like a man who has been to therapy. Bear in mind, I'm going to brag. I'm going to brag for a bit. I have a fantastic boyfriend. He's 6 foot 5, he's a lawyer, he loves his mother, he has wonderful male friends who I actually talk to for this episode. And yet the biggest insult they could think of when they didn't agree with me was that they wouldn't date me and that I was ugly, according to them. And then they wonder why they're lonely and they wonder why women don't want to date them as if it is some big mystery. And yet I still have sympathy for them because I know, like I, I saw these comments and I was like, oh God, I want to argue with you. I want to, I want to get mad at you. And I just look at them. I'M like, you are just the victim of something so much bigger than you that you are not even aware of. And I'm so sorry. So let's talk a bit further about the consequences of this. Not for men, but for women. Let's go further into the trenches of how women are bearing the brunt of this. The biggest thing, the biggest. One of the biggest consequences of this is that actually women are facing an increased sense of responsibility for men's mental health and for men's needs. Yet again, yet again, it becomes a woman's problem. This happens in relationships. It happens in friendships. It happens in sibling relationships. It happens with housemates, it happens with co workers. To quote the writer Ro McDermott, this gap in emotional caregiving in relationships between men and women leaves men even more unhappy because they don't develop individual emotional regulation skills. And it yet again leaves women with more work giving more emotional care than they receive, which then in turn breeds resentments and makes relationships fail. Feminist scholars have often labeled this emotional labor. But the researcher Ellie Anderson, she's recently identified a more nuanced definition for this called hermeneutic labor. Hermeneutic labor is the demanding, often unrecognized task that women face of interpreting, articulating, deciphering the feelings and intentions of others and navigating the resulting interpersonal tensions. Let me get this completely straight. Men and women, neither of them are naturally better at this. Women have just been conditioned to be better at it. And they have been conditioned to be better at it because they have often been, again, painted as the caretakers of others around them, including men. And that mental low takes. It takes its toll. And again, it hurts both people. It hurts all genders. It hurts women because suddenly they're responsible for another human's emotions, another adult's emotions. And they're now bearing the brunt of perhaps of an entire gender's loneliness, which they don't deserve to. And it hurts men because they should be better equipped with the emotional skills that they need to decipher their own emotions. But because, again, we have, like, taught women that that's their job, we've also taught men that they don't need to learn that skill, which is ridiculous. Everyone needs to learn that skill. Let's also talk about violence against women. Just a bit of a trigger warning that obviously this discussion might be a little bit heavy for some people, but we just can't not talk about it. Obviously, I'm. Honestly, I should have talked about it earlier, but violence against women is my biggest point to make. In this whole thing. I will say again, I asked some of my male friends their thoughts on the male loneliness epidemic because I just wanted to know their perspectives as men. You know, I'm a woman. I probably could never understand. I can never understand what they're experiencing. But I have to quote one of my friends shout out to Alex, who messaged me this. When I asked, I was like, what do you think about the male loneliness epidemic? And he said, let's be clear. As much as loneliness is an issue for men, it will never compare to the epidemic of violence against women. Violence against women is on the rise and it is very clearly killing women. It is a clear A to B, violence against women kills women. And it's not a coincidence that as it's increased, so is the prevalence of these manosphere circles. So is the prevalence of terms like male loneliness epidemic. Why is it that the male loneliness epidemic seemingly always seems to be trending, but the names of women who lost their lives to domestic violence, to intimate partner violence, to random male violence are not? And here's the thing, I really think that the more men are pushed into the space of thinking that the reason they're lonely is because women don't respect them or won't date them, the more we will see the numbers go up, the more violence will increase. It's very basic social psychology, right? When men experience loneliness, rejection, social disconnection, there's a strong temptation encouraged by the manosphere circles to blame women as the cause of their suffering. This has a word, it's called scapegoating. Rather than confronting actual structural issues like gendered expectations, economic shifts, limited male socialization, the responsibility is displaced onto women. The psychological payoff is that it gives them a clear enemy to hold accountable. Even if the actual causes are much broader and more complex. Scapegoating. It doesn't only reduce feelings of helplessness, it also fuels hostility towards the targeted group, which in this case translates into violence. Social identity theory will also tell you and tell us that people derive self worth from belonging to a group. So when men perceive that they are excluded by women from dating or from socializing, they may strengthen identification with an in group of other disaffected men. Women then become the out group against which all their grievances are projected. Once that division is drawn, it's very easy for stereotypes to be amplified. Women are shallow, women are manipulative, women are rejecting women only want me for my money, whilst the men in the in group are encouraged to see themselves as misunderstood victims. That us versus them dynamic that is just, like, the most fertile ground there is for hostility. Again, no one benefits from this. And this is why. Let's scrap male loneliness epidemic. Let's scrap female loneliness epidemic. Let's talk about this not as a gendered issue, but through a lens where this is a collective problem that we need to address. We're going to take a short break here, but when we return, I want to talk about that specifically. What are some of the solutions? What happens when Delta Air Lines sends four creators around the world to find out what is the true power of travel? I think it helped me sort of, like, get grounded.
- [43:07]
No Such Thing Hosts (Manny, Noah, Devin)
I think I unlocked some, like, childhood dream.
- [43:09]
Dr. Anna
Turn my stress into excitement. Take that gratitude from those experiences into your daily life. That's why I connected with Dr. Henry Ting, Delta's chief health and wellness officer and instrumental voice behind this travel experiment. Traveling in general is going to give you that social and cultural and psychological and emotional expansion. Yeah.
- [43:32]
Delta Airlines Host
You know, at Delta, we like to say no one better connects the world. It's connecting not just people to destinations. It's connecting people to other people, other cultures. Cultures, and ultimately experiences that can't really be replicated.
- [43:45]
Dr. Anna
Find out more about how travel can support well being on this special episode of the psychology of your twenties presented by Delta. Fly and live better. Listen. Wherever you get your podcasts, imagine that.
- [43:57]
No Such Thing Hosts (Manny, Noah, Devin)
You'Re on an airplane and all of a sudden you hear this.
- [44:00]
Dr. Anna
Attention, passengers. The pilot is having an emergency and we need someone, anyone, to land this plane.
- [44:08]
No Such Thing Hosts (Manny, Noah, Devin)
Think you could do it? It turns out that nearly 50% of men think that they could land the plane with the help of air traffic control. And they're saying, like, okay, pull this until this, pull that, turn this. It's just. I can do my eyes closed. I'm Manny.
- [44:22]
Dr. Anna
I'm Noah. This is Devin.
- [44:24]
No Such Thing Hosts (Manny, Noah, Devin)
And on our new show, no such thing, we get to the bottom of questions like these. Join us as we talk to the leading expert on over confidence.
- [44:33]
Dr. Anna
Those who lack expertise lack the expertise they need to recognize that they lack expertise.
- [44:40]
No Such Thing Hosts (Manny, Noah, Devin)
And then as we try the whole thing out for real. Wait, what? Oh, that's the Runway. I'm looking at this thing. See, listen to no such thing on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [44:54]
Jacob Schick
I had this, like, overwhelming sensation that I had to call a right then and I just hit call, said, you know, hey, I'm Jacob Schick. I'm the CEO of One Tribe Foundation. And I just wanted to go on and let her know there's A lot of people battling some of the very same things you're battling and there is help out there.
- [45:11]
Dr. Anna
The Good Stuff Podcast Season two takes a deep look into One Tribe Foundation, a non profit fighting suicide in the veteran community. September is National Suicide Prevention Month, so join hosts Jacob and Ashley Schick as they bring you to the front lines of of One Tribe's mission. I was married to a combat army veteran and he actually took his own life to suicide. One tribe saved my life twice. There's a lot of love that flows through this place and it's sincere now. It's a personal mission. Don't have to go to any more funerals.
- [45:38]
Jacob Schick
You know, I got blown up on a react mission. I ended up having amputation below the knee of my right leg and a traumatic brain injury because I landed on my head.
- [45:46]
Dr. Anna
Welcome to Season two of the Good Stuff. Listen to the Good Stuff podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. So you can't get the trip out of the group chat. We've all been there, but did you know there's actually a pretty easy solution? EF Ultimate Break is a group travel company for 18 to 35 year olds with over 140 itineraries all over the world. Just sign up and recruit six or more friends for a trip and you'll save hundreds or even thousands, thousands of dollars. You could even travel for free. Learn more@efultimatebreak.com that's EF Ultimate Break.com and turn the group chat into a group trip. Welcome back. Let's talk about some nuanced, healthy, proactive ways to counteract loneliness so that we can really get to the root cause of this issue before it is allowed to be further distorted and divided and twisted. Number one, if we're going to approach the loneliness epidemic, we need to recognize. It's going to sound counterintuitive, but we need to recognize that being lonely is actually something that we are all going to go through. It is universal, it is difficult, but it is not someone else's fault or responsibility. It is something that every single person is going to experience at some stage. Again, I was talking to my boyfriend about this, about the male loneliness epidemic and and he asked me, do you think the reason people are so worried about this is because they see loneliness as like a curse rather than just as a human experience? And I was like, whoa, wow. I totally have to agree with you there. I think we have this tendency to villainize loneliness and obviously prolonged exposure to loneliness is super harmful, but it is also a sign that something is missing. To me, loneliness is like hunger, it is like thirst, it is like tiredness. It is a sign that you have a very basic social need or a very basic human need that is not being met. And if you were thirsty, if you were hungry, if you were tired, you're not just going to sit there and be like, well, I'm really, really hungry and I'm really, really tired and not then try and sleep, not then try and find something to eat, not then try and find something to drink. Obviously it's a lot more complex than that. And I'll talk about some of the strategies we can use to fulfill that loneliness hole. But we need to treat it as a sign that something is missing. And that's not a singular thing that's missing. It's not a boyfriend, it's not a girlfriend. It is a larger inadequacy or deficiency in terms of support. That is really what's happening here. And that brings me to the second thing we need to address, which is the real structural causes of loneliness beyond a micro individual level. Blaming one person, even blaming a group of people, like, it's never going to get you anywhere. But if we want something or someone to blame, as we often do, let's turn our direction to a common enemy. How society has been set up by people long, long gone in a terrible way for which we are now facing the consequences. Mainly, the common enemy is the patriarchy, which hurts both men and women. Its division between genders, its stigma about mental health, its stigma around vulnerability. It's society's obsession with productivity so that none of us have time or energy to connect with others anymore. It's the loss of community through the commercialization of previously accessible spaces. It's the fact that we don't have livable or affordable cities where people can actually see each other and hang out and meet other people. Incidentally, anything else is. It's. Quite frankly, it's a red herring. It's distracting us from the main issue. It's distracting us from the serious factors that are at play. Again, I went looking into some of those red pill manosphere group chats and Reddit pages, and you know what really disappointed me was how easily distracted they are from what is really causing their loneliness, or because a woman rejected them, or all because a woman was involved. They will get so close to the truth and then they will fall short. This is an exact comment on a post titled the Men's Loneliness Epidemic is Real and why we shouldn't say otherwise. In a Reddit group called Men's Rights, Quote, I saw a news article about male loneliness epidemic and all it talked about was how it affected women. I dislocated my knee at work and no one messaged me or contacted me to see if I was doing okay or anything. But when one of the women went on leave for a sore back, they sent her a get well card and some cash. End quote. Do you. Do you see what I'm talking about? This, to me, is a prime example of this poor guy being mad at the woman who got the card and not at the system that meant that you didn't feel you could reach out. Or the system that made it seem that because you were a man you could be strong and they didn't have to help you. What if instead of focusing on what women could or could not do for men, why it is a male versus female problem, we focused on how this is a resource issue, a time issue, a mental health issue, a system issue. If someone brings up the male loneliness epidemic to you, I think it's an invitation to instead steer them towards the bigger picture by saying, you know, yeah, it's so awful that men are made to feel so limited in their emotional capabilities that being in a relationship is their only cure to loneliness that really does suck. Or say like, yes, it is so hard that mental health and physical health struggles are so stigmatized that people feel isolated. Or bring up the statistics that we talked about before. Men and women are equally lonely because we are all lacking from opportunities to meaningfully connect. That's something we really need to fix as a collective, don't we? And whatever gender you are, if you see an issue with loneliness in your life or in your community, become the person that fixes that. Be the instigator. Make a run club. Invite people over for dinner at your house. Become the host. Join a book club, or make a book club, get a foster dog and walk it in the park. The amount of people you will meet and talk to is mind blowing. Volunteer, even if it's through work. Like, there are so many other options here and if you have other suggestions of things that you've done, please drop them below. So the number the third thing, Number three Third thing we need to do is we need to not engage with manosphere influences that make men feel more isolated and instead promote healthy male role models. If you see someone spouting just like plain nonsense, block them. Press uninterested. Do not comment. Do not like, do not argue. Do not engage. Stop Giving these people oxygen and instead make it a point to follow, engage, comment like reshare Content from healthy male role models. Here are some examples of people who I think are just absolutely excellent. The first one is Ned Brockman. He was an electrician who ran across Australia in a couple years ago and he raised $2.6 million for homelessness. And he continues to share super, super inspiring stuff. Super healthy male role model. I'd be so happy if my sons turned out like him. Hank Green, another great example. He just, he was just battling cancer and he continued to share his journey throughout that. And he continues to like, inform people about science, about news. He's great. Dax Shepard and his podcast, Armchair Expert. He also overcame a substance abuse problem. He talks about that very openly. Dr. Jay Barnett, incredible man. I love his stuff. Tom Daly as well, love him as well. Like, I can keep going. I can list all these amazing men who I think are great examples of what it means to be a man who asks for help, who is connected, who talks about struggle, who also does really cool stuff. You know the show that I think every man should be required to watch at school, it's Ted Lasso. Like, that show is one of the most amazing things ever made. And it talks about male loneliness. It talks about men's mental health and masculinity and divorce and breakups in like the most wonderful, positive way that is actually productive. We need more of that. Number four, we need to call out the men in our lives now. This is specifically for other men. Silence is complicity. And one of the most powerful ways to shift culture is not through big articles, outrage, Instagram posts, even podcasts like this one. We know it's through everyday accountability when men hear their friends, brothers, colleagues, strangers make sexist jokes, belittle women, dismiss conversations about violence, or continue to spurt toxic myths about masculinity. Those moments were really critical. Too often they slide unchallenged because it's uncomfortable. It's uncomfortable. I've had times where I haven't spoken up about things I really should have, but that only silently reinforces a belief system that is hurting your fellow man. When another man steps in, whether it's like a simple like, that's not funny, or like another guy saying like, cut the shit, screw your head on, it cuts through in a way that women, unfortunately, often can't. Research in social psychology shows that in group criticism, when it comes from someone who is inside your own group, it carries more weight. A man challenging another man doesn't just interrupt the harmful cycle it redefines the norm within that group, and it signals that, you know, respect and equality for women. That's the standard, not the exception, not just something that you perform when you're actually around women. Number five. And I think this is the most crucial one. We need to stop pretending that men and women can't be friends. And I know if you're a woman, you're probably hearing this and being like, oh, like, I know the feeling, right? I know why you. You're probably rolling your eyes. You're like, yeah, but I try to be friends with men and they just want to date me. No, we need to make this completely platonic from both sides. This is bringing me back to an earlier point I made about the fact that male loneliness, yes, it is caused by men not having male friends. It's also caused by the fact that when they see a woman, that's either someone they want to date or they can dismiss or maybe a family member. And oh, my gosh, do they miss out. They miss out when they have that mindset. Imagine thinking that you can only be friends with 50% of the people in the world compared to 100% of people. You're already limiting yourself here. Like, you're already. You're already starting from a less favorable position when it comes to tackling loneliness. You already have less options. I did a full episode on this a while back titled Can Men and Women Be Friends? And I think I know the answer is yes, they very much can and they very much should be. I think this would go a long way in also humanizing women for some of these men who have unfortunately fallen into a bit of a male centric echo chamber. Number six, we need to continue to encourage people to talk about their mental health and to reduce stigma around just saying. I'm super lonely, I'm super sad. I'm having a rough time. As I kind of finish up this episode, I want to reiterate, loneliness sucks. Whoever you are. The stigma we face around mental health is actively hurting people and shaming them into becoming further isolated and silent. Not getting the support that is available to them, not being open. And let's be real, it really, really hurts people. I also think a rising tide lifts all ships. It's not a gendered thing. We need to start having conversations openly about mental health, and we need to start by doing it ourselves. Be brave enough to just answer the question, how are you doing with honesty? Because it has a chain reaction. It invites people to share. For my male listeners, even if it's just the men in your family, your cousins, your dad, your grandfather, your brothers. Share with them. Ask them how they are. Check in. It might feel awkward. It might feel hard. I actually think sometimes the best things feel uncomfortable at first because that discomfort is a sign that something needs to happen and something needs to change. Alrighty. As we wrap this episode up, I want to thank you again for coming into this episode with an open mind. And if you're gonna comment something down below, please keep it civilized. I will. Like, I don't want to see anyone being nasty. I don't want to see anyone being mean. I definitely don't want to see anyone calling me fat as has happened in the past, or anyone calling anyone anything rude. Let's keep it civil. But I do want to see the conversation keep going down there because there's definitely things I've missed. There's definitely perspectives that I just haven't thought of. So if you have a perspective or an opinion, please, please share it below. I would love to hear from you and I hope that this episode has illuminated some things for you. Share it with a friend. If it has, share it with your guy friends, your female friends, your friends of all genders, your old friends, your new friends, whoever it is, and see what their thoughts are as well. Make sure as well that you are following us on Instagram at that psychology podcast if you want to learn more about this topic and also see more of what we're doing on the psychology of your 20s. I also want to thank our researcher Libby Colbert for her contributions to this episode and for pushing me to do this episode. I really, really appreciate her. We wouldn't be able to do it without her. And make sure that you're following along wherever you're listening. Spotify, Apple Podcasts, the iHeartRadio app. Give us a five star review if you feel called to do so. This won't be the last time we talk about this, so I can't wait to keep the conversation going. But until next time, until our next episode, stay safe, be kind, be gentle to yourself. Take care of yourself as well. Talk about your mental health as well. That's my final, my final reminder and we will talk very, very soon. Hello, my lovely listeners. By now you know the more knowledge we have about ourselves and the way our bodies work, the more empowered and in control we are. And this is also true when it comes to our sexual health and what to do after unprotected sex. That's where plan B comes in. It's emergency contraception with no age requirement. That helps prevent pregnancy before it starts. And because it works by only temporarily delaying ovulation, it won't impact your ability to get pregnant in the future. We love a backup plan that puts us in control because the more we know, the more power we have. Learn more@planb1step.com users directed what happens when Delta Air Lines sends four creators around the world to find out what is the true power of travel? It's these small moments of intention, right?
- [61:35]
Delta Airlines Host
Not just people to places and destinations. It's connecting people to other people, other cultures, and ultimately experiences that can't be replicated.
- [61:45]
Dr. Anna
Find out more about how travel can can support wellbeing on this special episode of the Psychology of youf 20s, presented by Delta Fly and Live Better Listen wherever you get your podcasts from tips for healthy living to the latest medical breakthroughs, WebMD's Health Discovered podcast keeps you up to date on today's most important health issues. Through in depth conversations with experts from across the healthcare community, WebMD reveals how today's health news will impact your life tomorrow. It's not that people don't know that exercise is healthy, it's just that people.
- [62:16]
Mandy Money
Don'T know why it's healthy.
- [62:17]
Dr. Anna
And we're struggling to try to help people help themselves and each other. Listen to WebMD Health discovered on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [62:26]
Honey German
Hi, it's Honey German and I'm back with season two of my podcast, Gracias. Come again. We got you. When it comes to the latest in music and entertainment, with interviews with some of your favorite Latin artists and celebrities. You didn't have to audition.
- [62:38]
Dr. Anna
No, I didn't audition. I haven't auditioned like over 25 years.
- [62:42]
Honey German
Oh wow, That's a real G talk right there. Oh yeah, we'll talk about all that's viral and trending with a little bit of Cheeseman and a whole lot of laughs. And of course, the great biblas you've come to expect. Listen to the new season of Gracias. Come again on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.
- [63:02]
Dr. Anna
This is an iHeart podcast.