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- [00:00]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
This is an I heart podcast.
- [00:04]
Gia Giudice
Hey, it's your favorite Jersey girl, Gia Giudice. Welcome to Casual Chaos, where I share my story. This week, I'm sitting down with Vanderpump Rules star Sheena Shay.
- [00:14]
Sheena Shay
I don't really talk to either of them, if I'm being honest. There will be an occasional text one way or the other from me to Ariana. Maybe a happy birthday from Ariana to me. I think the last time I talked to Tom, it was like, congrats on America's Got Talent.
- [00:29]
Gia Giudice
This is a convo you don't want to miss. List to casual chaos on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [00:38]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
It's important that we just reassure people that they're not alone. And there is help out there.
- [00:42]
Jacob and Ashley Schick
The Good Stuff podcast season two takes a deep look into One Tribe Foundation, a nonprofit fighting suicide in the veteran community. September is National Suicide Prevention Month, so join hosts Jacob and Ashley Schick as they bring you to the front lines of One tribe's mission.
- [00:57]
Lauren LaRosa
One tribe saved my life twice.
- [00:59]
Sheena Shay
Welcome to season two of the Good Stuff.
- [01:01]
Jacob and Ashley Schick
Listen to the Good Stuff podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.
- [01:08]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
The super Secret bestie club podcast season four is here and we're locked in. That means more juicy cheesement, terrible love advice, evil spells to cast on your ex. No, no, we're not doing that this season. Oh, well, this season we're leveling up. Each episode will feature a special bestie, and you're not gonna want to miss it. My name is Curly, and I'm May. Listen to the super secret bestie Club on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [01:38]
Jenica Lopez
Hi, I'm Jenica Lopez, and in the new season of the Over Comfort podcast, I'm even more honest, more vulnerable, and more real than ever. Am I ready to enter this new part of my life? Like, am I ready to be in a relationship? Am I ready to have kids and to really just devote myself and my time? Join me for conversations about healing and growth, all from one of my favorite spaces, the kitchen. Listen to the new season of the Overcomer podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.
- [02:13]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Hello, everybody, and welcome back to the psychology of your 20s, the podcast where we talk through some of the big life changes and transitions of our 20s and what they mean for our psychology. Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to the podcast. New listeners, old Listeners, wherever you are in the world, it is so great to have you here back for another episode as we, of course break down the psychology of our 20s. Today, we are going to talk about a relationship that is honestly like no other. It is unrivaled. It is a special kind of special. And that is the one that we have with our pets especially, but not just, but especially in our 20s when they could honestly be a lifeline. You know, I've always loved animals. I've had such a soft spot for them. I'm an animal gal. I had pets growing up. I had an obese white rabbit for a long time. My childhood dog, yo yo, is somehow still alive at 16 years old. God bless. I've always pet sitted. I've always been around animals. But earlier this year, as some of you may know, I adopted my dog, Talu. And it feels like a whole new side of life has opened up for me. And it is really what made me want to do this episode today. I. It's going to sound wild. I truly did not realize how much I could love another living creature. I did not realize how much they could change how I saw the world. Like, the way I talk about her. I honestly sometimes feel like people think I have joined a new religion. It is genuinely like an unparalleled joy to walk through the door every day and like she is there and she is happy to see me the same way that it is, I'm sure, a joy for people that come home and their cat is there or their lizard or their bird. For so many of us, a pet is. It's more than an animal. And that's something I don't think you understand until you have one of your own. They are a family member. They are a best friend. They can pull us out of really hard times. They are a constant. And I know I could not imagine my life without her. But after I got Talu, I really started to wonder, like, why are they as special as they are? Like, how come I didn't feel this before? What makes her presence make me feel so much joy? Why is this bond so incredibly psychologically transformative? Basically, what is this human connection and animal connection we have with these creatures that just kind of live in our house? Well, today we're going to get into that exact science, the science behind this unique bond, from the hormones to the neurotransmitters in our brain, to the psychological needs they fulfill, to how they change our lives and our brain chemistry. We're also going to touch on, in my opinion, One of the most painful and often misunderstood parts of pet ownership, which is the grief of losing them. Something that I don't really see a lot of people talk about. We're going to talk about disenfranchised grief and how losing your childhood pet in your 20s can create a bit of an existential crisis and can be so uniquely heartbreaking. I want to apologize in advance. I'm going to be talking about my own dog so much throughout this episode because she is one of the loves of my life. So again, I am sorry, but I'm also not really. To be honest, she is the best. Hopefully you can, like, join me in my excitement. Drop your pet's name down below, especially if it has, like a human name. I want to know it. I'm really excited to further explore this with you guys. So without further ado, let's get into how pets change our lives. I told you guys there was going to be a lot of talu content. I want to tell you the story about how I got her, not because anyone asked, but because I just want to talk about her. And I feel like it's a nice introduction to how I have seen a pet change my life in the last year. So not even the last year, in the last six months. So this is the story of how I got my. My love, my. My dog, my talu. So I made an episode almost a year ago now, which is wild, about a really hard mental health time I had when I basically just had, like, I had a mental breakdown. I had a huge crisis. And at the time I was like, in this really low point and I was like, I should really get a dog. Like, I need something that's going to pull me out of this. I need, I need. Like, this is the only thing I can imagine. Like, it's gonna sound really hard, but really wanting, wanting to be here for, like, I should get a pet. And I think they'll do. Will do a lot for me and really help me and, like, allow me to feel like there's meaning in the world again. So I kind of been umming and ahhing about it for a while before this moment. And I went to the rspca, I went to the shelter and I met a couple dogs. One dog who I really, really liked called Wolfie. So if you adopted a black German shepherd from RSPCA last year whose name was Wolfie, hit me up. I hope she's doing well. And I kind of like fell in love with that dog. And I was like, you know what? This is not the right time. I'm a bit too young. I had a lot of travel coming up. I was living in, like, a house that, like, was not appropriate for a dog. And I was like, this is kind of selfish. I'm just going to wait and see how I feel in six months and we'll reassess. Six month Mark came around and I was like, you know what? I. I'm still feeling this. I feel like I'm more prepared, I'm in a more stable place to perhaps have a pet. But I'm gonna foster first. Like, I'm gonna foster an animal. I'm gonna foster a couple dogs and just see, just give them, like, the chance to have a break from the shelter. Hopefully get them adopted. Hopefully, like, use my platform so that other, other people can find their, like, furry soulmate. And one of the dogs we fostered with was Talu. Now Talu has a really sad backstory. She was in the pound for over a year because. And she was not allowed to leave the pound. She was, she is like the most perfect dog. She is like a 40 kilo. What's that, like 80 pound math? No, she's like 40 kilos. I'm sorry, if you're in America, you gotta do the conversion. I'm sorry. She's a huge dog. She's like this big black and white dog. No idea what breed she is, but she is like the most mild mannered, gentle dog ever. I, I don't even think I've heard her bark maybe once. She doesn't bark, she doesn't jump. She's fully trained. But she wasn't available for adoption because basically her previous owners had abused her and she had been removed from their care. And they had then sued the RSPCA or made an attempt to get her back until a judge had dismissed their case, like, had dismissed their right to her. And this poor puppy, like, she's missing a bunch of her teeth. Someone has obviously kicked her at some point. She has a massive burn on her nose. We first got her and I remember being in the car and turning to Tom, my boyfriend, and being like, oh, I really think we've made a mistake. As in, like, we're not giving this dog back. But I said to him, I was very clear, I was like, we are not making a decision for three months. If someone comes along and adopts her in this three month period, that's their dog. She's so wonderful, she's so amazing. But they. That's their dog. And a couple of people, like, were interested, but they would see how big she was, they would make assumptions about her character. They wanted a puppy, they wanted whatever and they would like, would never follow through. And so the three month mark came around. Literally the three month mark was the same day that my book came out. And I don't know if you guys know this, but my book came out and I moved house within 24 hours. And we adopted Talu on the same day because the three month mark came around and I was like, this is my dog. Like, this is my dog. And she is literally everything to me. I spend almost 24 hours a day with her. I don't leave her for more than three hours a day. She does sleep in my bed. I'm. Some people are disgusted by this, but I just feel like she had such a tough life. Like I don't know her whole story, but I know it was pretty terrible. And then she had to be in the shelter for a year. She had such a tough life. She's gonna get whatever she wants. And now she's got like dual income, no kids. Like that's me and Tom's situation. She gets whatever toy she wants. Yeah, we have dog gelato in our, in our freezer. We don't have ice cream for ourselves. We have dog ice cream. She, she has outfits. You know, her dog bed is actually two dog beds on top of each other like princess and the pea style. And this is really what brings me to this point. I've obviously changed her life. She has changed mine more. So what is it about having a pet that is so completely transformative for so many of us? Well, it turns out it is not a singular thing. It is actually a whole cocktail of different things of psychological and physical benefits that come together to really improve our well being and improve our development as humans. At the moment, loneliness is literally described as an epidemic. And social networks can feel fleeting. Friendships can feel kind of surface level. We don't have as many opportunities to interact. Pets circumvent that. They provide a deep, constant connection that in times like these we kind of can't always find anywhere else. They're not going to go cold on you. They are not going to ignore your texts because they don't have phones. Duh. Like they simply show up and they love you for like exactly who you are that day. Studies consistently show that interacting with a pet, interacting with an animal in general, can reduce feelings of loneliness and increased feelings of social connection. Those are fundamental to our mental health. In fact, interacting with an animal is actually one of the most sure fire Ways of immediately having a positive emotion spike, of immediately feeling an improvement in your mood. You know, in a world that is kind of unpredictable, a pet is this like, anchor. This can provide us with like, basically a psychological safety net. You might think, okay, even if my life is really stressful right now, even if there are people I can't trust, even if I feel disconnected, I always have this relationship. I have this source of comfort waiting for me at home. And sometimes that is the only reassurance that you need. Pets also give us this really clear sense of responsibility and routine, which is incredibly grounding when we kind of feel like life is sometimes losing a bit of its meaning or structure. For many, many people, you know, a pet is the reason they get up in the morning. It is one of the only reasons they may leave their house during the day. It is the reason they stick to a schedule. When you get a pet, like, they are completely reliant on you. I know that's super obvious to say, but they are super reliant on you. If it's a dog, like, you've got to feed them, you've got to give them water, you've got to walk them, you've got to brush them, you've got to play with them, you've got to give them mental stimulation, you've got to give them medication. Same with a guinea pig. Same with a bird, a rabbit, a lizard. I've never had a reptile. I don't really know, but I'm sure it's very, very similar. Whether they have a good day or a bad day, whether they survive or thrive, whether they are happy, whether they are literally alive, all comes down to you. And that absolutely is a big and scary thought. But it also provides this feeling of structure and reliance that has actually been shown to combat symptoms of depress anxiety. One study from 2018 found that this is particularly powerful for people really suffering with their mental health because there's something about another living creature needing you that is sometimes able to overcome the barriers that prevent us from taking care of ourselves. People can be homeless, they can have extreme psychosis, and still their pets are well taken care of. Their pets are loved, trained and fed. This psychological benefit is tied to a concept we talk about a lot on the podcast, self efficacy. Caring for a pet just provides a very clear, tangible opportunity for individuals to feel competent and to feel effective in their daily lives. The successful fulfillment of a pet's needs reinforces your belief in your own capabilities, which can be like a super powerful antidote when you're Feeling helpless or feeling like, you know, I can't do anything, no one needs me. And in return for this reliance on us, pets give us this unconditional love that we talked about. They literally do not care who you are, what you have done, how bad your day was. They continue to love you. And this level of adoration and love, that's pretty much unheard of in any other kind of relationship. Maybe like your family, but not always. Like, no matter how you're feeling, it is this pure form of acceptance. Pets, particularly dogs, I think, also serve as really powerful catalysts. Like we already talked about loneliness. But it's not just that their presence makes you feel less lonely. It's that they also are kind of an in to a social life beyond just them of other dog owners. You know, bringing a dog to the park or on a walk, the amount of people that you talk to, it creates such amazing avenues for social connection. The amount of attention you get when you're out doing life with your furry little companion in the wild is, is crazy. Like, anytime I take talu anywhere, I am guaranteed to talk to at least five people. I also, I have literal dog park friends now. I have drinks with them at the park on Thursdays. We all bring our little cans of beer and our little cans of wine. And when we run out of things to talk about, guess what, you just talk about your dog. You just start watching what they're doing. You don't even have to say anything. It basically provides a prepackaged, low effort route into conversations with people. Those are the social and mental health benefits. The physical benefits of this companionship are also pretty obvious. You know, I've talked about dogs a lot. They are the most common owned animal, I'm fairly sure, domesticated owned animal. But dog owners actually tend to be more physically active. They tend to have a higher step count. And that also contributes to better emotional well being. The combination of movement and social interaction and purpose driven movement as well, like I'm doing something for someone else for something else, makes them feel better in their daily lives. Let's also talk about why this pet human bond is really, really unique and not something that like, we can just dismiss as like, oh, it's just because they rely on you. It's so much more, in some ways, you know, it's kind of similar to the relationships you would have with a family member. I'm gonna go as far as to say that. But I think the key difference is the fact that there is an absence of complex communication and there was an Absence of just complexity in general, that can sometimes make other kinds of social connections feel really burdensome. To really understand this, we kind of have to rewind a little bit. Our relationship with animals was not always this warm and fuzzy. For thousands of years, it was all about work. The whole human animal bond basically started as like a mutually beneficial business partnership over 20,000 years ago, maybe. I think it's between 15 and 20,000 years ago. We're trying to find a pinpoint if we look at how our relationship with dogs has come about. For example, the ancestors of our modern dogs, ancient wolves, probably started hanging out near campsites or small communities to snag leftover food. Now, the ones who weren't completely terrified of us, they had a serious advantage because guess what, they could get closer, they could integrate easier, they could become a favorite. And in return for getting, you know, little bites of food that we didn't want, these dogs became a built in alarm system against predators, against other tribes. It was a trade over thousands of years through a process of both natural and artificial selection. Dogs were then bred for specific behavioral traits like vigilance, like tameness, and then later for things like hunting, herding and guarding, and also just like being really cute. It was only much more recently, in the last few centuries, that, you know, their role did actually shift from working animal to cherished family member. Although there is evidence of like really deep emotional bonds all the way back like 12,000 years. I actually found this article from, I think it was the Smithsonian, from a group of archaeologists who found evidence of ancient people likely caring for a sick and domesticated puppy for weeks on end before it died. After it died, the dog was then buried with the remains of another dog and an adult man and woman, making it not only the oldest burial of a domesticated dog on record, but also the oldest known grave to contain both dogs and people. So when you look at a dog's deep loyalty today, you are seeing an echo of thousands and thousands of years of a working partnership that is now transformed into just pure love. Cats, they have a different origin story. They were originally solitary hunters, but they also totally figured out that our new farms were packed with rodents. So they just started showing up where we kept our grain, where we kept our harvest. They were great for natural pest control and we basically just let them do their thing. Like dogs, the cats that were more docile and tolerant of people were more successful. But unlike dogs, cats domestication process, it was less of like an artificial selection process and more of a natural adaptation to like the humans that they were coexisting with. Basically, cats have domesticated themselves, which I don't think is surprising at all, considering their independent nature. But basically, you know, we've gone from, you work for me to you're nice to have around to your family. Like, I'm gonna buy you clothes. I'm gonna buy you nicer food than I do, than I eat. I'm gonna let you sleep in my bed. Like, literally. When we first brought Talu home, she. She wouldn't eat normal dog food because I think she was just stressed and overwhelmed. New environment. And so my boyfriend Tom, one day, he brought home organic chicken mints. Meanwhile, we had generic chicken mints in the fridge for us to eat. But Talu, she got the $15 chicken mince. She got the princess treatment, honestly. Sidebar. If you want confirmation you're dating the right person or your partner is going to be a good parent, if you want to be a parent, just see how well they treat your pets. Like, it is such a great litmus test. Like, Tom is obsessed with her, and it has made me love him so much more. This profound sense of companionship. It's also no accident. It's also no accident that Tom fell in love with Talu. It is very easy to link our relationship to our pets with the release of oxytocin. Oxytocin, known as the love hormone, known as the cuddle chemical. Obviously, yeah, they're fluffy and they give us love and they cuddle us. But research from 2015 even shows that when dogs and their owners gaze into each other's eyes, both experience a surge in oxytocin similar to that between humans and infants. Everyone always says, like, oh, my dog is like my baby. Literal evidence of that. This biochemical reinforcement, it creates a feedback loop of attachment and bonding. It solidifies the very unique nature of the relationship. And there's a truly fascinating detail of this that perfectly illustrates our kind of co evolution. Did you know puppy dog eyes are actually not a natural wolf trait? Research from a 2019 study published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences found that domestic dogs have a small muscle in their eyes that wolves. They don't even have and they have never had. This muscle allows dogs to basically raise their inner eyebrow, creating the classic, like, puppy dog eyes. So the re. This movement, it actually makes their eyes look bigger. It makes them look more infant like, which in turn triggers a nurturing and caregiving response in humans. They literally have, like, taught themselves how to look like a baby. This study suggests, as well that the dogs who had the more expressive eyebrows had a selective advantage because they looked cuter. So they were more likely to be cared for, fed, adopted by humans and they passed that trade on. This has actually been referred to as not survival of the fittest, survival of the cutest. And it is a powerful example of how dogs facial anatomy has been shaped by literally evolving to tug on our heartstrings. Pets also, this is another little known fact. They offer a form of CO regulation for our nervous systems similar to the kind of CO regulation we sometimes find with other humans. When we pet an animal, our heart rate actually slows down, our stress response reduces, cortisol levels reduce, decrease, sorry. And we enter a calmer, more regulated state. A study on an animal visitation program amongst university students found that the simple act of petting a dog around exam time reduced cortisol levels and greatly increased feelings of support. And pets, it's not just a passive thing. Like they don't just passively make you calm, they also mirror our emotional states. This was something I was so surprised to find out, but also not like I've kind of seen this happen with me and my dog. You know when you've had like a really bad day at work and then your dog like just lies by your side for a cuddle, like they just know that you need it. Research shows that dogs are actually masters at reading our emotional cues. They combine information from our body language, vocal tones, facial expression, even our scent to understand how we're feeling. There was a recent study done in 2024 that found that dogs can detect subtle changes in our breath and our sweat that indicate stress with over 90% accuracy. Like a dog can literally smell when you're having a bad day. And this like kind of creates the basis for the emotional mirroring or like the emotional contagion that we're talking about where they catch our feelings and they reflect them back. Now on a good day this creates a really reciprocal loop of positive energy like I'm happy you're happy, I'm happy you're happy. Just gets better and better. But that can just as easily reflect our stress or our anxiety or our sadness. 2019 study published in the journal Nature found that dogs long term stress levels often sync up with their owners, showing that our emotional state has a very real impact on our own pets cortisol levels and their own, I guess, mental well being. But this unique reciprocal regulation where they calm us and our calm presence in return calms them, it is what creates this symbiotic bond that is truly unlike any other. The therapeutic power of this connection, like it's so significant, it is a core component of animal based therapy where animals are used to help people with their anxiety, with their ptsd, with other mental health challenges with an astounding success rate. Research also shows that therapy dogs can reduce anxiety and stress greatly in educational and medical settings to help children undergo procedures, help them get vaccines, all these other things, not just dogs. The same goes with horses. If you have the time, look into the relationship between horses and individuals with autism. It will blow your mind. Like we don't have the time to get into it, but when I was researching this episode, I went into a complete rabbit hole, is like honestly beautiful. There was like one video, one story that made me cry. So that's what you're in for. And I just think it shows like this relationship is literally healing people. It's not just companionship. So we're going to take a short break here, but when we return, we are going to talk about some of the sadder parts about owning a pet and talk about the heartbreaking reality of, of losing your childhood pet, you losing a pet in general, losing your companion and your best friend and how that elicits a pain that a lot of people don't understand but which is very, very real. So stick with us. We'll be right back after this short break.
- [28:40]
Sophia
This is Sophia from ok, Storytime. The wait is over. The next up live music finals are here on September 26th. TikTok Live and iHeartRadio bring you the biggest night in live music. Streaming directly from the legendary IHeartRadio theater in LA. The top 12 artists you've been following will take the spotlight for one career defining performance judged by music gurus and industry powerhouses. Tom Pullman, chief programming officer at iHeartradio. Yada Murphy, program director of 102.7 Kiss FM. Justina Valentine from MTV's Wild N Out and viral guitarist John dredda hosted by JoJo on the radio and EJ from 102.7 Kiss FM. This is the ultimate showdown. The judges will crown the next up live music winner and you have the power to decide who takes home the People's Choice Award. Don't miss a second. Watch it all unfold live on TikTok on September 26th from 7 to 9pm Pacific Time only on the official TikTok handle at TikTok Live. Underscore us again. That's at TikTok Live. Underscore us together. Let's go. Witnessed the birth of the next music.
- [29:43]
Vanessa Gregoriadas
Superstar, power struggles, shady money, drugs, violence, and broken promises.
- [29:50]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
It's a freaking war zone. These people are animals. There's no integrity, there's no loyalty. That's all gone.
- [29:57]
Vanessa Gregoriadas
In the 1980s, modeling wasn't just a dream, it was a battlefield.
- [30:02]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Book, book, book my deals. Let's get models in, let's get them out.
- [30:07]
Vanessa Gregoriadas
And the models themselves, they carried scars that never fully healed till this day.
- [30:13]
Sophia
Honestly, if I see a measuring tape, I freak out.
- [30:15]
Vanessa Gregoriadas
The Model wars podcast peels back the glossy cover and reveals a high stakes game where survival meant more than beauty. Hosted by me, Vanessa Gregoriadas, this is the untold story of an industry built on ruthless ambition. Listen to Model wars on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [30:43]
Gia Giudice
Hey, it's your favorite Jersey girl, Gia Giudice. Welcome to Casual Chaos, where I share my story. This week I'm sitting down with Vanderpump Rules star Sheena Shay.
- [30:53]
Sheena Shay
I don't really talk to either of them, if I'm being honest. There will be an occasional text one way or the other from me to Ariana. Maybe a happy birthday from Ariana to me. I think the last time I talked to Tom, it was like, congrats on America's Got Talent.
- [31:08]
Gia Giudice
This is a combo you don't want to miss. Listen to Casual chaos on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [31:18]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
You're not gonna lie about that, right? Lauren came in.
- [31:20]
Lauren LaRosa
From viral performances to red carpet look books that have everyone talking the podcast. The Latest with Lauren LaRosa is your go to for everything VMA's. We will be right here breaking it all down. I'm gonna be giving y' all the headlines, breaking down everything that is going down behind the scenes and getting into what the people are saying, like what is the culture talking about? That's exactly what we'll be getting into here at the Latest with Lauren LaRosa, everything VMAs. I'm the homegirl that knows a little bit about everything and everybody. To hear this and more, listen to the latest with Lauren, the Rosa from the Black Effect podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast.
- [32:05]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Given the in depth bond of this relationship that we have with our pets, one of the most agonizing experiences can be when we lose them. And it actually elicits something that psychologists call disenfranchised grief. The term disenfranchised grief, it was coined by Dr. Kenneth Docker to describe a kind of pain that isn't necessarily socially sanctioned, it isn't necessarily openly acknowledged or publicly supported, but it is very much real. It is a kind of grief that society tells us, like we don't have the right to feel, so we're kind of forced to mourn, mourn in silence. You might hear distant friends or colleagues say things like, it was just a bird, it was just a rabbit, or, you know, just get another cat, get another dog. This dismissive language, I think it's well intentioned. It completely invalidates the intense pain of this loss. You wouldn't say that about the loss of a family member, but all of a sudden it seems okay to be quite insensitive because it's just a pet. They're lower on our humanity ladder. It forces us into a painful internal conflict where our intense feelings of sadness, you know, kind of clash with the social narrative that says our grief is disproportionate or even foolish. And this can make us feel like if we were to openly grieve and be sad, we would be shamed, we would be cringed at, we would be treated differently. You know, I have been in workplaces where someone has had time off for losing their dog of 16 years and co workers have literally rolled their eyes or made comments about it as though it is not significant. And I've genuinely never understood that because as a family, like, my family always had pets. We had rabbits, we had guinea pigs, we had chickens, we had dogs. So the thought of not having them, the thought of losing my beloved animal, the thought of losing Talu, like, you guys wouldn't be hearing from me. The podcast would be on a hiatus. Research on pet loss reveals that the intensity of the grief, it can be comparable to the loss of a human family member. That is not ridiculous to say. 2017 study found that pet owners can experience a grieving process when it comes to their pet with many of the same stages and symptoms as mourning a human, including depression, including anxiety, including a profound loss of identity. I'm aware that I'm probably focusing more on dogs in this episode because that is my main experience, but this could literally apply to any animal that you have as a pet. My cousin, she is. Oh my God, I always forget what she is. Not a marine, a wildlife biologist. She's a wildlife biologist. Coolest person out there. And she has every single animal that you can possibly imagine. Like, anytime I go to her house, I like, obviously I love to talk to her, but I mainly just want to feed every single well taken care of pet that she owns. And at the start of the year she lost her bird, pipsqueak. Let me tell you, it may be just a bird to someone who doesn't understand that relationship, but like she brought this bird back from the dead and she hand raised this bird. She, like this animal meant something to her. It doesn't matter what the species is. It's the depth of the attachment that determines the intensity of the grief. When that attachment is severed by death and by loss, the pain is real and it should not be minimized. But for many, you know, this experience is complicated by a very unique and heavy burden. We are often in the position where we might have to make the call of when it's time to let them go. We have to decide when it's the, the right time for our pet to pass on. You know, it's an act of mercy, but it can be agonizing. This decision is always going to be one of the most compassionate ones you can make. It doesn't mean it's not going to be hard. And it can lead to such immense guilt and a sense of helplessness because this thing is completely reliant on us and yet we are doing the unthinkable. I know it is not an easy choice and for those of you who have had to do it, I commend you. I can't imagine something so heavy. Sometimes I think about Talu dying and I just, I honestly don't think I will be able to bear it because it is just. It's hard. This is a weird tangent, but super weird. It will make sense, I promise. But my childhood dog, like I said, is super old. Like he doesn't have much longer and we've had him. Like my sister's 18 and we got this dog when she was 2. Like she doesn't have memories without this dog. And I was so worried, like how, how my sister's gonna deal with this. Also my dad, like, my dad and my dog are best friends. And me and my mum were talking about it and we were like, do we get a rescue dog whilst yo yo was still alive to make the grief sting less? Or is that unfair for his like final years to be overshadowed? And then just a few months ago, this tiny kitten showed up. So small, so underweight, like so tiny. And I feel like I know my dog's time is coming, but this is like a little small thing, a gift from, from the universe that's like preparing my family and like showing that, you know, I think that animal is meant to be in their life for this next chapter. I still don't think I'll be prepared for it, though. I feel like when he passes, when he crosses the rainbow bridge, like, that's when I feel like I'm truly going to be an adult. A lot of people have told me that the grief of losing a childhood pet is actually like one of the most disorientating things ever because it just brings about such complex and weird emotion. Waves of nostalgia, waves of mourning for your childhood. Like, your pets are like these silent witnesses to all these milestones, to you graduating, to your first job, to your first heartbreak, to your personal growth. And so losing a childhood pet, you're not just losing a loved one, you're also losing a tangible link to an important part of your past. It can feel like the definitive end of an era, the end of a specific version of, of our innocence, of our childhood, of our family unit. The sadness we feel is not just for the pet, it's for so much more. And I think that deserves a very compassionate space to be mourned. With all that in mind, let's talk about something more positive. Let's talk about the decision to bring a new pet into your life, especially during your 20s, a time of so much personal change. This is a decision that you have to think about. Like you got to think about it, you've got to be super sure. So we're going to turn our attention to the future here. What does a commitment to an animal truly entail? How do you know when you are ready? Now, none of this is going to be about me trying to discourage you from doing what's best for you. But I do want to really encourage you to just make a conscious choice. There's going to be compassionate to both yourself and the animal. I also do know that dog shelters and rescue centers, for example, are completely overflowing. So it's important that this is a thought out decision. If you get a pet and you decide you don't want it, that's still your pet. I truly believe that is your pet until the day it dies. And so you are responsible for finding it a new home, making sure it is taken care of, making sure that it has the life that it deserves. That is the worst case scenario, you having to give your pet up. It's not a light decision. So before you make the decision to get them, we want to minimize that as much as possible. I want you to ask yourself four important questions. Number one, depending on the life expectancy of your chosen pet, do you have the financial stability for upwards of a decade long commitment. Listen, my dog cost $100. Like in the grand scheme of things. That's not that much money. She lost 100 bucks. That compared to how much I pay for her per month is nothing. Her worming medication alone is $100 a month. Then it's another $100 for her dog food. Probably more, to be honest. She's a big dog. It's probably a lot more. Plus the toys because she chews through them all. Plus three days a week she goes to doggy playgroup because I wanted to have friends and I wanted to have as much fun as possible in her short life. Obviously that's optional, but pets are expensive. Ask yourself if you can afford not just the upfront cost, not just the food and the toys, but the unexpected vet bills, the annual checkups, pet insurance, any medications you might need over a period of 10 to 15 years. Doggy daycare. Is there someone who's going to look after the dog if you can'? Sudden $2,000 emergency vet bill because they found some chocolate on the floor can put some serious stress on your life and an inability to pay for that even more so there's going to be significant guilt and heartbreak there. Pets will unconditionally love you, but they also deserve to be in a stable and financially secure environment if we're choosing to take care of them. Like they don't get a choice. They don't get a choice who chooses them. So if you're going to choose them, make sure you're thinking about them as well. And obviously things may change. But just with what you know now about your circumstances, are you making the right decision? Second question. Does your lifestyle have a consistent routine? Pets, especially pets that need regular feeding? Again, I have no idea what lizards or snakes or stuff like that or even birds need. I'm so sorry, but I'm thinking like the cat, dog, rabbit, guinea pig, hamster, fluffy vibe. Pets thrive on regular routine. They need regular walks, feeding, times, attention, training. If you're someone who is constantly working late, traveling on a whim, has a very unpredictable schedule, you need to be honest about whether you can truly provide a stable, consistent environment for this living creature. Something that made me so mad the other day was this guy on Instagram in a comment section asking for advice about his border collie. He has a border collie, a one year old border collie in an apartment. He lives by himself. He takes the dog out to go to the bathroom in the morning, then he goes to work from 8am to 6pm, goes to the gym, is not back until 8pm and then takes it for a walk. And he was like, why is my dog tearing up my furniture? I would be tearing up your furniture if you left me alone in a house by myself for 12 hours at a time and only took me outside, what, twice a day? Maybe not even that. Like, as an animal who was meant to be outside. And he was like, what do I do? Like, that's. It's too late to ask that question. Obviously, like, people gave him actual advice. But this is one thing I have to say I don't have. I don't really like to give people unsolicited advice. This is the one thing that, like, really peeves me off. Don't get a working breed, a young working breed. If you live in an apartment. Don't get a husky if you live somewhere that's hot 12 months of the year. Don't get a rabbit if you only have space for a tiny cage. Don't get a pet because of aesthetics, when you can't meet their needs. You know, I don't get really upset about much, but that really annoys me when I see people with an animal that is so clearly the wrong choice for their lifestyle. Like, I live in Sydney. Why do you have a kelpie? If you, like, work 12 hours a day and you don't exercise them? I literally. I can't. I don't understand. I'm like, why do you have a kelpie? Isn't that annoying? Like, that dog would be going nuts. And I don't like to say I don't understand everyone's circumstances, obviously. And maybe I'm making, like. Maybe I'm having preconceived judgments, but, like, for the amount of freaking kelpies I see in my neighborhood where there is like. Like, I don't understand it. I just don't get it. Like, it's a living creature. If you have a specific breed or kind of pet you want, you can always wait. You know, it's just maybe not the right time to commit. Wait till you maybe get a property. Wait till you have more money. Wait till you can, you know, pay for someone to maybe take them out when you can't. It will be more fun for you as well and obviously for them when you can give them what they need. And it's not a constant stress of, am I doing enough? Third, I think this is a huge one. Are you emotionally ready to put something else first? This is a massive question. Our 20s are a time for a lot of personal growth. And there's a lot of things you might want to do that you should be entitled to do. You should be able to travel, you should be able to have fun, you should be able to stay out all night. A pet, though, requires you to put their needs first. Always. It means sometimes sacrificing a spontaneous weekend away or a late night out, or travel to ensure they are cared for. It means being there for them and getting out of bed on your bad days, even if you don't feel like it. This is a beautiful and selfless commitment, but it is vital to assess if you are truly ready and able to put another being's needs before your own for a prolonged period. Especially like a puppy or a kitten. You could not pay me to get a puppy that is, it's like a child. It is literally like it's. You've got to. You couldn't pay me. It's a lot. Are you ready for that? Lastly, are you getting a pet for the right reasons? And this is something that I had to ask myself as well. Are you getting a pet to cure your loneliness? Are you getting a pet because it's like an aesthetic thing? Are you getting a pet because you can imagine the next year and how much fun it's going to be? But nothing beyond that. A pet's a great help with loneliness. Trust me, I work from home. I was so lonely before I got Talu. Has she cured it for me? No. And relying on her, relying on them for your own happiness. Like we said, there's an emotional relationship. They feel that and it puts an unfair burden on them. But also, you know, you'll likely get them and be like, whoa, this isn't as amazing as I thought it was going to be. And that's a hard position to be in. The best reason to get a pet is a genuine desire to care for and build a life with another being, not as a quick fix for your emotional needs. There's also, like other options if you realize pet ownership isn't for you. For example, family or friends have a pet you could offer to pet sit for them for a while. Not only will they likely be very grateful, it means you can actually get used to, like, what this is going to require. It also means you can hand them back and you don't have to like, you don't have the guilt of making a long term commitment. It's like when people want me to hang out with their babies, I'm like, absolutely, I will do that because I don't have to take this baby home. Like, same thing with a pet. I also had a friend who literally did not pay rent for a full year because she did pet sitting gigs. That's another option. There are so many sites where people will be like, you can live in my house for free if you look after my animal. Many local shelters also really need volunteers and they literally need volunteers to play with the animals or to simply just like sit with them in their cages. This is like a really nice way to give back and to receive that like animal led joy. Also something I highly, highly recommend is fostering. Obviously didn't work out for me the way I wanted to. I ended up getting a dog. But if you met her, you would understand why. Like, she's a once in a lifetime. But dog shelters are quite literally overflowing. They always need support and a lot of dogs aren't going to do well in a shelter. Same with cats. Getting them out of that environment is just going to do wonders for them and it's going to increase their chances of being adopted as well. It's a defined period of care. Also, normally all the shelters, like the rescues will pay for the food bills, the vet bills, they'll give you toys. It's like amazing. It's like the best of both worlds. And finally, because I'm not done with giving unsolicited advice about pet ownership, if you are thinking about getting a dog or a cat or even like a rabbit or a guinea pig or a chicken, like whatever, please consider going to the shelter first. And please read up on responsible breeding. There are so many misconceptions about rescue animals out there. You have no idea the work that these places put into these dogs and these animals to make sure that they go to loving homes. I would say 95% of the time they are like, they are absolutely perfect. And if you want a specific breed, which I totally get, I can guarantee you there is a rescue organization that specializes in that breed and takes on people's pets of that breed that they don't want anymore to rehome them. And it's not going to cost you like four and a half thousand dollars that you're going to pay to someone who you have no idea what their intentions are. I just think secondhand, secondhand dog, secondhand cat, third hand dog, third hand cat. Like, it's, I think it's fun. I, I really think that they end up being amazing animals. So I think that's all that we have time for today. And I hope that you have learned something about this deep connection we have with the furry critters in our lives. Whether you have one or not, whether you want one or not. I hope that checklist of questions maybe either confirmed something for you or made you realize that, you know, that's something for you to look forward to. I loved making this episode. I'm just gonna like dedicate this to Talu. I love her so much. Is that a surprise? Probably not, but I had such a joy recording this. So thank you for listening. Leave your pet's name down below as well. Like I said, especially if they had a human name. I also want to thank our researcher Libby Colbert for her contributions to this episode and for her amazing work. As always, if you want to learn more, if you want some behind the scenes content, if you want summaries of episodes, you can follow us at that psychology podcast on Instagram. Make sure that you are following us here on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, the iHeartRadio app, wherever you are listening and give us a five star review if you feel called to do so. It really helps the show reach new people. It's an amazing free way to say you appreciate us as well. If you do. I don't know if you do, but if you do, thank you. Until next time, stay safe, be kind, be gentle with yourself. Love. Go and put some loving on a cute little puppy out there. Go and go to the dog park this afternoon. We will talk very, very soon.
- [51:41]
Gia Giudice
Hey, it's your favorite Jersey girl, Gia Giudice. Welcome to Casual Chaos where I share my story. This week I'm sitting down with Vanderpump Rules star Sheena Shay.
- [51:51]
Sheena Shay
I don't really talk to either of them if I'm being honest. There will be an occasional text one way or the other from me to Ariana. Maybe a happy birthday from Ariana to me. I think the last time I talked to Tom it was like congrats on America's Got Talent.
- [52:06]
Gia Giudice
This is a convo you don't want to miss. Listen to Casual chaos on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [52:14]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
It's important that we just reassure people that they're not alone and there is help out there.
- [52:19]
Jacob and Ashley Schick
The Good Stuff podcast season two takes a deep look into One Tribe Foundation, a non profit fighting suicide in the veteran community. September is National Suicide Prevention Month, so join hosts Jacob and Ashley Schick as they bring you to the front lines of One Tribe's mission.
- [52:33]
Lauren LaRosa
One Tribe saved my life twice.
- [52:36]
Sheena Shay
Welcome to season two of the Good Stuff.
- [52:38]
Jacob and Ashley Schick
Listen to the Good Stuff podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.
- [52:45]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
I'm Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman, host of the Psychology Podcast. Here's a clip from an upcoming conversation about how to be a better you when you think about emotion regulation, you're not going to choose an adaptive strategy which is more effortful to use unless you think there's a good outcome. Avoidance is easier. Ignoring is easier. Denial is easier. Complex problem solving takes effort. Listen to the Psychology podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [53:15]
Mandy Money
Do we really need another podcast with a condescending finance bro trying to tell us how to spend our own money? No, thank you. Instead, check out Brown Ambition. Each week I your host, Mandy Money gives you real talk, real advice with a heavy dose of I feel useless. Like on Fridays when I take your questions for the baqa. Whether you're trying to invest for your future, navigate a toxic workplace place. I got you. Listen to Brown ambition on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.
- [53:45]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
This is an iHeart podcast.