← The Psychology of your 20s
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- [00:00]
Gemma
This is an iHeart podcast with life getting busier and more expensive each year. There's one thing that helps save money and time. A Walmart plus membership. Who knew? I mean, you get free same day delivery on groceries and more instead of errands. You get more time to relax. Members also save 10 cents a gallon at over 13,000 gas stations nationwide, which we know really adds up. And Walmart plus even includes a video streaming choice between Paramount plus or Peacock, which is perfect for movie nights. $139 PR annual fee versus $98 Walmart plus annual fee delivery $35 minimum for Walmart Plus $25 minimum for Prime Gas at participating stations $0.05 in Alabama and Oklahoma. One streaming service with ads every 90 days. Additional registration required. Terms and conditions apply. If you're waiting for your AI to turn into ROI and wondering how long you have to wait, maybe you need to do more than wait. Any business can use AI. IBM helps you use AI to change how you do business. Let's create smarter business. IBM what happens when Delta Air Lines sends four creators around the world to find out what is the true power of travel? It's these small moments of intention, right?
- [01:26]
Dani Shapiro
Not just people to places and destinations.
- [01:29]
Gemma
It's connecting people to other people, other cultures and ultimately experiences that can't be replicated. Find out more about how travel can support well being on this special episode of the Psychology of your twenties presented by Delta Fly and Live Better listen wherever you get your podcasts. I truly don't think I've ever had as many events as I do right now and Nair's Shower Cream has been not just a lifesaver but a time saver as well. Because I don't know about you, I just can't be bothered with shaving anymore, especially as I've been trying to move house and do a million other things. Nair and the number one hair removal brand and their body and shower creams. Firstly, they actually smell delicious whilst working so well to get rid of all of my hair when I'm tight on time, I use the shower cream infused with coconut oil and it's also so gentle on my skin. I feel so silky afterwards and it's free of dyes, parabens, thalates and sulfates. So get ready for summer buy now at all major retailers. In our 20s we are basically constantly evolving emotionally, hormonally and yes, even our skin. I've been using Primally Pure's Soothing Mist and Clarifying Serum and it has changed how I approach skincare. It's not about Control or perfection. It's about support. Primally pure is female, founded, clean and rooted in simplicity. Go to www.p r I m a l l y p u r e dot com. Use my code GEMMA15 and get 15. Your skin deserves care that matches your growth. Hello everybody and welcome back to the psychology of your 20s, the podcast where we talk through some of the big life changes and transitions of our 20s and what they mean for our psychology. Hello everybody. Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to the podcast. New listeners, old listeners, wherever you are in the world, it is so great to have you here. Back for another highly requested episode as we break down the psychology of our 20s. So, guys, today we're going to talk about Borderline Personality Disorder, or bpd. Maybe you have seen the term thrown around online, especially recently. Maybe you have seen it used to describe people, people who others think are manipulative or dramatic or even dangerous, without really even knowing the whole story or what BPD actually means. Maybe for some of you listening, you know, this is a term that you have encountered more personally. Maybe this is a diagnosis that you've received. Maybe you grew up with a parent who had BBT and didn't really understand it until recently, or maybe you are hearing it for the very first time on this podcast. What I really want to do today is give a proper and real introduction into the world of people with bpd, into what this condition actually means, and probably more importantly, what it doesn't. Because I think, as is the case with a lot of mental health disorders or personality disorders, the truth gets rather twisted and I think it gets made smaller until it becomes a bit of a stereotype. This has definitely happened with Borderline Personality disorder at its heart, but this is a condition. This is a disorder of emotional regulation and attachment, meaning it massively affects how someone feels, their mood, their relationships, how they see themselves, how they view love. One of our core human experiences, some of the ways that I've seen people describe it is basically like a lack of identity. You get such intense feelings of anger and nihilism that you feel completely empty. And then the next day or the next minute, you will be filled with like such an intense ecstatic joy that you feel like the world could never be an evil place again. It's scary, kind of not knowing how you feel about the same situation and therefore kind of not knowing who you are. Others have also described this emotional pendulum by saying it's like having so much emotion that you don't know what to do with it. But also at the Same time feeling so empty and having both of these things exist at the same time. You can go from loving a person so deeply you think you know you might die and then suddenly hating everything about them. It is the disorder, it is a roller coaster disorder. That's really like the best way to put it. And what actually is behind this emotional intensity? Because I think you may know the symptoms, you may know the general character profile of what people assum assume people with BPD look like. But do we really know the origins? Do we know how this disorder impacts the mind, why it is so linked to attachment? I think a lot of people don't. So I really want to talk about it today. I really want to reduce a little bit of the stigma and just talk about some probably unknown facts and some unknown research about BPD that you might not see presented on TikTok and that you might not see in everyday discussions about this, about this condition. As always, I say this every time with these specific episodes that we do on mental health disorders. This is not a diagnostic tool. It's not a diagnostic tool for yourself or to be used for someone else. Nor is it a substitute for therapy or real life intervention. We're also going to be talking about some sensitive topics today to do with suicide, suicidal ideation and self harm. So if that's something that you are sensitive towards, just consider whether this episode is what you need to hear today. It will be here in a month, it will be here in a year. You can always come back to it when you feel more prepared. I will leave you some links in the description for further resources. So if you or someone you know may be experiencing borderline, if you think they may be experiencing borderline, if this episode has left you distressed, hopefully those help you find the help that you need in your local area and for what you're going through. So I just want to give that little disclaimer before we get into it. It probably will be a more heavy episode than we're used to, but take care of yourself. And without further ado, let's dive into the psychology of borderline personality disorder. So I want to begin with a little bit of like an imagination exercise to really get across even just a small of the experience of someone with bpd. This is how people describe it. Imagine for a moment that every emotion that you have felt today or in the last week you are currently feeling right now all at the same time. You know, you don't just feel happy, you feel ecstatic joy. You don't just feel sadness, you feel Bottomless despair. Every moment of rage, every moment of love, laughter, every moment of hatred from the past week of your life, you are experiencing it right now. These visceral emotions that I think are only usually available to us for a tiny portion of our lives and of our days. People with bpd, they feel them all the time. They feel them much more often in much, much higher definition. Now imagine that these emotions get split into positive and negative. And now instead of just feeling all your emotions at once, you're feeling all or nothing. You're feeling either entirely good and loved and happy or entirely miserable and depressed and angry. And that rapid, effective or emotional instability can be triggered by something that many of us would consider really, really tiny, really, really minuscule and, you know, a delayed reply to a text message, a certain facial expression, a certain slight or perceived rejection. Not only is the depth of feeling amplified for people with bpd, and there have been studies that have shown that people who have borderline personality disorder may actually have access to a more nuanced emotional scale, but the rate at which these emotions is changing within someone with borderline personality disorder is also accelerated. This is what people often mean when they describe BPD as emotional instability. And in fact, that's exactly what some diagnostic manuals call it. This is a really important caveat before we get any further in the episode. If you are listening from somewhere outside of Australia or outside of the us, you might know borderline Personality disorder as something entirely different. In the uk, in parts of Europe, in parts of Asia, in you might hear the term emotionally unstable Personality disorder or EUPD rather than borderline personality disorder. Now, the reason I'm going to go with BPD for this episode is obviously I am in Australia, if you couldn't tell from my voice. But also it is the term that is used by the dsm, which we've spoken about before many times on the podcast. It is the diagnostic statistical manual of basically every single mental disorder known and categorized. So, you know, if I was to start saying emotionally unstable personality disorder instead of borderline personality disorder, I think I would kind of slip up. So you may have heard this as a different term, as a different. In a different way. They do mean the same things. There is a reason, though, that they are labeled differently. The term, or the preface of borderline comes from kind of an older way of thinking. Back in the day, clinicians believe that people with BPD with this condition were on the borderline between psychosis and neurosis. Neurosis is also known as anxiety. Today, most experts agree that that is not actually what's happening. That description is outdated. We don't really use terms like neurosis anymore. Emotional, emotionally unstable, I should say, gets closer to the reality. What is really happening with this disorder is a nervous system that has been caused or forced to react intensely and unpredictably to emotional triggers. Let's talk about prevalence here for a little bit. BPD is estimated to be prevalent in anywhere between 0.7 to 5.8% of the general population. Uber specific numbers right there. And I'll tell you why those numbers are so specific. They're so specific because that is the minimum and the maximum that researchers believe this condition could be present. When considering factors like a lack of diagnosis, especially in certain population groups like men, or in certain countries with underdeveloped mental health systems where there isn't diagnosis as much, I guess, like knowledge of this or opportunities for diagnosis, they're also considering if there is an over representation. So sometimes when people try and find these estimates of like how common is a disorder in the world, they like to go as small as possible and as big as possible. So when you hear 5.8%, I don't want you to think that anytime you go into work, anytime you're walking down the street, one in every 20 people have borderline personality disorder. Again, it's just like the max of all maxes. Now let's talk about more. More deeply, let's talk about what this disorder actually contains. What are the Hallmark symptoms of BPD? So according to the DSM 5, if you want to be diagnosed with borderline personality disorder, a couple of things have to be true. Firstly, you have to experience a certain number of the following symptoms. An intense fear of abandonment, unstable relationships and unstable self image. So feeling amazing one minute, terrible the next, impulsivity, recurrent suicidal behavior or self harm, emotional instability, rapid intense mood changes, chronic feelings of emptiness, intense anger, inappropriate to the situation and at the extreme, stress related paranoia or dissociation. I think that as of today, as of right now, as I'm recording this, you need to have five or more of these symptoms present over a significant period of time and across various contexts. So you can't just feel emptiness, impulsivity and intense rage when you're around your family and your family only. Or you can't just experience that when you're at the job that you hate. It has to be something that unfortunately isn't purely environmental or context based, but which sits with you throughout all social, physical, emotional contexts. That is kind of the hurdle that you have to jump over to be diagnosed with bpd. We're going to talk about a couple of the other hurdles later on. Don't worry, we'll get to it. So clearly when we talk about instability, this isn't just having a few mood swings. It these swings are full body. They affect identity relationships, they affect our relationship with ourself, even sometimes how we see reality. One of the most devastating aspects of BPD is the way that it heightens risk for self harm and suicide. And this is kind of a known, very sad secret of the community of people who endure and suffer from this condition. I saw this statistic the other day that as many as 70%, I believe, of those with BPD will attempt suicide at some point in their lifetime. That makes Borderline Personality Disorder 1, if not the most high risk psychiatric diagnosis. When it comes to mortality, I would assume it would be second only to anorexia. That statistic isn't necessarily meant to shock you, although it definitely shocked me. 70% is a ridiculously high number, but it's meant to just highlight how intense and painful this disorder can be for those who are living with it, whereby the only response many of the people who are enduring this condition believe they can have the only appropriate response is a drastic, devastating and permanent one. Another key complexity to do with BPD is that it actually rarely exists alone. We talked about those hurdles you need to get across. This is the second biggest hurdle. Getting the diagnosis is actually quite difficult because for someone with BPD it is highly likely, in fact it is more probable than not, that they will also be experiencing another co occurring mental health condition. The research in this is a little inconsistent, but in terms of the rate of co occurrence with other mental health conditions, anywhere between 63 to 95% of people with borderline personality disorder will also have another diagnosis at the time of their diagnosis. Now that number, the 63 to 95% that was found in a very well known 2019 Swedish population study which looked at almost 2 million people with BPD. So I think that we can say that number is fairly accurate. 2 million people. I think that is the largest sample size of any study we have ever mentioned on the podcast before ever. Some of the most common co occurring conditions are the ones that are obviously most common in this, in society in general. So depression, anxiety disorders, bipolar disorder, but then also ptsd, complex ptsd, CPTSD as it's called for, short substance use disorders and eating disorders. This one especially. Eating disorders and BPD are incredibly common, especially bulimia and Binge eating disorder. Now this overlap obviously can make things quite tricky. Imagine going into a doctor's office and, you know, really all your symptoms are coming from a large tumor. But instead of treating the tumor, they start treating a gash on your leg and they start treating you for a vitamin deficiency and they start treating, they send you to the dentist to get like dental treatment. And all along you have this big tumor that all of this stuff is coming from. Like, that's how some people describe bpd. It's like you're treating, you go into, I don't know, the medical system, specifically the mental health system, and you have this big thing that is really bothering you that you can't figure out. And as in order to get a final diagnosis, all these other little things get treated or get labeled first when the big thing kind of goes undetected. I've heard so many stories of this from listeners of people who, you know, they had not even heard of the term BPD until they were in an inpatient treatment for an eating disorder five years after they first develop said eating disorder, or they've been treated for depression and anxiety for years before suddenly someone sits down and says, you might have this. And it's like the key that unlocks the door. I think that's similar for, you know, late stage diagnosis for ADHD and for autism. Often people don't get the label that they need and that they would would really give them an answer until a little bit later in life. So where does BPD actually come from? Psychologists, researchers, they will often turn to the biosocial model to explain the origins of bpd. Now, the biosocial model was originally proposed by Marshall lyman and the 90s, I think, and she also is the creator of dialectical behavior therapy dbt, which you have probably heard about on the podcast before. We're going to circle back to that in a second. But according to this biosocial model, BPD develops from a combination of a couple of things, almost like a perfect storm. It is not a singular thing that creates it. Firstly, there must be a biological vulnerability, meaning a person is born naturally born with a heightened emotional sensitivity, a certain specific kind of temperament or heightened emotional dysregulation. An individual basically is seen in this case to have had a predisposition for either hyper arousal or hyper reactivity. So their nervous system reacts more strongly to emotional stimuli and takes longer to return to a baseline because of their genetic blueprint. It has nothing to do with environment. Yet there's a lot of different theories and pieces of research looking at the specific biological basis behind this hypo arousal or hyper reactivity. And what a lot of people typically come back to is this one structure in our brain, one of the smallest structures, which is the amygdala. Now the amygdala sits right in the center of what we call our old brain. It is responsible for detecting threats and for triggering an emotional response like fear or anger, which will in turn also trigger a physical response. Now, in people with bpd, when they do FMRI scans of these people's brains, what they tend to find is that the amygdala is hyperactive, meaning that when a rather ubiquitous or small emotional experience occurs, it reacts in a disproportionate way compared to a so called, and I hate saying this, a so called normal brain or a control brain. The brain's alarm system in this case goes off at the slightest sign of rejection or criticism because it cannot distinguish between something that requires a 2% reaction and a 200% reaction that is part of the intensity behind this disorder. Now on the other side, we have the prefrontal cortex. Now the prefrontal cortex and the amygdala often get talked, talked about together a lot because they are like, how do I describe it? They're like on two sides of the balance beam. The prefrontal cortex. She is logic, she is regulation. She is the thing that provides reason, executive functioning and helps calm us down. Now if the amygdala shows hind reactivity, the frontal lobe shows reduced activity or reduced connectivity in people with bpd, basically there are less roads, less fast pathways running around the frontal lobe, so messages are a little bit slower. So you've got a brain where the emotional accelerator is extra sensitive and the braking system is less responsive. Slash doesn't really work. That's a hard mind to control for anybody. Of course, this does have a genetic component. If you have a parent, if you have a sibling, if you have an immediate family member with bpd, the chances of you then developing that disorder sits around the 40 to 60% mark. It's about 40 to 60% heritable. Now it's kind of hard to.
- [24:19]
Dani Shapiro
Kind.
- [24:19]
Gemma
Of hard to detach whether it's because you've been raised in an environment where someone has a disorder that causes them to be quite polarizing and reactive, or whether it is purely genetic. The best way we can figure it out is through twin studies. And it does seem to be that there is both the genetic and an environmental context. Here, the genetic aspect of having a family member or Having a certain genome or whatever it is that has been primed for BPD is that that vulnerability can actually lay completely dormant for somebody's whole life or for many, many years until something triggers it. And this is where we get to talk about the second part of the biosocial model, which is the role of an invalidating environment, meaning that a lot of people who go on to develop BPD from a young age probably existed in a world that didn't teach them how to manage their emotions, didn't give them a safe space to manage their emotions, and, and who probably experienced something very severe and extreme during their childhood that they couldn't grasp, they couldn't control, they weren't supported to understand as a child. And so from that point on, all of their emotions were level 100. You guys know, my guilty secret is that if I'm researching an episode where I want to know more about lived experience, I love going into Reddit and reading through all, like, the, I guess, like the support boards. And in one of the ones for bpd, I found a lot of people talking about this experience of a before and after, like a moment where they felt their brain, this new brain, their BPD brain, like, switch on. And this is exactly what we're talking about. There's a biological vulnerability, a light switch that is suddenly switched on by an environmental experience. Now, what might that environmental experience be? Well, there are a lot of options, a lot of really actually terrible options. But it's often trauma, either subtle or overt, that adds to these effects and that creates the personality disorder or personality type we now call borderline or emotionally unstable. A 2018 study published in the Journal for Personality and Mental Health looked at a sample of adolescents from 13 to 17 who were at an inpatient unit as a result of their bpd. And then of these people, who. Of these children who had bpd, they also matched them with a sample of people of the same age who didn't have BPD. And then a further 290 adult inpatients with BPD. And they just got every single group, the teenagers with bpd, the teenagers without bpd, and the adults with bpd, to answer a few questions about their childhood, specifically experiences of abuse or neglect. What the study found was that adolescents with BPD described significantly more abusive experiences than their psychologically healthy peers. But often they did so in quite a detached way. Oh, you know, I don't really know why I'm like this. But then they would go on to explain something that was just like, absolutely psychologically crushing. What's even more interesting is that that recall of those events and I guess that rate of trauma and emotional or childhood neglect was very similar in the adult group as well. And a lot of these people found that the impact of their childhood adversity was almost more pronounced in adulthood, perhaps due to the prolonged effects of early trauma and the fact that the inability to regulate themselves through those experiences had meant that the impact of those experiences had just been allowed to compound trauma, especially when it's relational trauma to do with how your caregivers treated you, to do with maybe a death in the family, to do with social rejection or social pain or grief. It also heightens a fear of abandonment and it makes trust in relationships a lot more difficult and it reinforces that hyper reactivity to emotional stress, which is another core element of bpd. Now, trauma doesn't have to be this huge major thing that you can point to and reflect on and say, this is where it began. For a lot of people with bpd, they actually say, you know, my childhood was pretty good. They don't recount having an abusive childhood. But as we said before, when you ask them to describe it, it's, you know, parents who are physically present, who put food on the table, but are deeply dismissive parents who themselves had bpd. And because that's the only caregiving and parental love the child or the person has ever known, that felt normal to them, or it's just not being valued. It's environments that just didn't match the child's sensitivity, where they felt like they were too much or too dramatic, where they felt like every time they said, don't abandon me, someone would, or someone would think that it was funny to play into these insecurities. Really what we are pointing to here is how trauma interacts with biological vulnerability, which then interacts with emotional invalidation or environmental invalidation. That is the trifecta that creates BPD and I would say 99% of cases. And it's what shapes emotional regulation, self concept, and of course, our attachment pattern. Now, with that in mind, we are going to take a short break, but when we return, let's really talk about how this impacts our relationships. Because I think this is the space where people are most curious about BPD or often first introduced to bpd. So stay with us. Life somehow feels faster and more expensive than ever. But one thing that makes it all easier is a Walmart plus membership. Who knew, right? It's got free delivery on groceries and so much more as fast as today. That means more time in the day to do the things you love and less time spent grocery shopping. Then there are the gas savings. 10 cents off per gallon at over 13,000 stations nationwide. Filling up feels a lot easier with those kinds of savings. And when the day is done, Walmart helps you unwind with your choice of video streaming service included. You can choose between Paramount plus and Peacock, which means more access to the best shows and movies without paying more. 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- [32:08]
Health Discovered Host
This week on a very special episode of Health Discovered, we're taking a closer look at a condition that affect hundreds of thousands of men each year. Prostate cancer.
- [32:18]
Health Discovered Guest
I first found out about my cancer at the age of 45. Anything with cancer, you just think death sentence.
- [32:26]
Health Discovered Host
In this episode we'll explore the science behind detection along with the practical steps men can take to protect their health. Listen to health discovered on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Open your free iHeart app search health Discovered and start Start listening.
- [32:44]
Havoc Town Narrator
There's a vile sickness in Abbas town. You must excise it, dig into the deep earth and cut it out. The village is ravaged. Entire families have been consumed.
- [32:58]
Gemma
You know how waking up from a dream a familiar place can look completely alien. Get back everyone. Let's go. Next.
- [33:07]
Havoc Town Narrator
And if you you see the devil walking around inside of another man, you must cut out the very heart of him, burn his body and scatter the ashes in the furthest corner of this town.
- [33:19]
Havoc Town Promo Voice
As a warning from iHeart podcasts and grim and mild from Aaron Manke, this is Havoc Town, a new fiction podcast set in the Bridgewater Audio universe, starring Jewel State and Ray Wise. Listen to Havoc town on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [33:40]
Havoc Town Narrator
The devil walks in Abbottown.
- [33:44]
Danielle Robaix
Just like great shoes. Great books take you places through unforgettable love stories and into conversations with characters you'll never forget.
- [33:53]
Gemma
I think any good romance, it gives me this feeling of like butterflies.
- [33:57]
Danielle Robaix
I'm Danielle Robay and this is bookmarked by Reese's Book Club. The new podcast from hello Sunshine and I Heart Podcast where we dive into the stories that shape us on the page and off. Each week I'm joined by authors, celebs, book talk stars, and more. For conversations that will make you laugh, cry and add way too many books to your TBR pile, listen to Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Apple Books is the official audiobook and ebook home for Reese's Book Club. Visit Apple Co reesapplebooks to find out more.
- [34:35]
Jenica Lopez
Hi, I'm Jenica Lopez and in the new season of the Overcomer podcast, I'm taking you on an exciting journey of self reflection. Am I ready to enter this new part of my life? Like am I ready to be in a relationship? Am I ready to have kids and to really just devote myself and my time? I wanted to be successful on my own, not just because of who my mom is. Like I felt like I needed to to be better or work twice as hard as she did. Join me for conversations about healing and growth. Life is freaking hard and growth doesn't happen in comfort, it happens in motion, even when you're hurting. All from one of my favorite spaces, the kitchen. Honestly, these are gonna come out so freaking amazing. Be a part of my new chapter and listen to the new season of the Overcome for podcast as part of the Michael Tura Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast.
- [35:31]
Gemma
Something really critical and key with bpd, as I mentioned before, is the role of relationships. They carry so much of the disorder's weight and a lot of the times I think it is where BPD becomes most visible in everyday life, especially to others. If you have watched Girl Interrupted, Fatal Attraction, Silver Linings Playbook, these are like pop culture references that I actually think are pretty good at explaining or showing the intensity of this experience of people. I personally, I love Silver Linings Playbook. It is one of my all time favorite movies. But if you've seen it, you will feel or you will notice that the movie has this weird way of making you feel feel stressed and making you feel on edge. Especially from the main character. Like his interactions with people are so they become so volatile at times and you can feel that through the movie. And I apparently see I don't have bpd, but I've been told it is a very good depiction of how this feels inside the mind of someone with bpd. Like things are rising, things are like just spiraling and and it's all joy the next one moment and it's all disappointment or anger or hate the next. Psychologists often frame this through the lens of obviously attachment theory. Many people with BPD show what's called an anxious, preoccupied or a disorganized attachment style. That means that they desperately crave closeness and connection, but at the same time that intimacy, because it is something they desire so much, feels deeply threatening. When closeness for them has so often been paired with pain, rejection or inconsistency, love becomes both the thing they need the most and the thing they fear the most. They fear the loss of that love. They fear that someone is just inevitably going to leave them. And they fight very, very hard internally and externally to prevent that from happening. This plays out in what we sometimes call a push pull dynamic. On one hand, they're craving this bond, they're craving intimacy, they are pulling it closer. And on the other hand, they're so fearful of being hurt that they push away. And that's what the withdrawal and the anger looks like. There's a very famous phrase used to describe this, which is, is I hate you. Please don't leave me. You've probably heard of it. It is actually the name of one of the most well known books on bpd and it's exactly as it sounds. I hate you. Please don't leave me. I actually love you. What we sometimes realize is that love for them feels so intense that sometimes it just gets confused with all other intense emotions. Or you start to anticipate the pain of someone leaving before it happens. And so you're reacting or you are acting out this future imagination that you have of how it's going to feel when this all comes to an end. Relationships really do feel like, as they described, a pendulum swing between extremes of idealizing one's partner and then devaluing them. At one moment, you know your partner is perfect. They're the best thing that's ever happened to you. They are gorgeous and beautiful and kind and everything you've ever wanted. And the next, after some perceived slight or disappointment, that same partner might be seen as cruel or untrustworthy. And in that moment, it feels like you never want to see them again. It's ruined. It's not that the person with BPD wants to see things in this black and white way. It's that their emotions are so overwhelming that it's hard to hold both the good and the a bad in one mind at the same time. This has a name, it's known as splitting. And it's basically the inability to hold opposing thoughts, feelings or beliefs all at once. Obviously, no one is ever perfect. You know, even if someone is literally our soulmate and the love of our life, and we've managed to find them. Things do go wrong. But for someone with bpd, often to survive the internal emotional volatility, they do find it easier to make outright right categorizations like this person is evil or this person is an angel. And when someone sits in the middle, sits in the gray area, they cannot just be a normal person with flaws, with inconsistencies, with normal human reactions. That's what makes everyday relational conflict, disagreements, disappointments, so difficult for someone with this disorder. I read a few reports of what this felt like for people with bpd and what some people describe as this inability to detach, catch the bad feeling about the situation from the person in the situation. Obviously, having arguments in a relationship is uncomfortable, but also there's this whole rupture and repair idea of you do need to sometimes have friction and conflict in order to build the muscle and build the volume of your relationship and to move forward. And so it's kind of just a normal part of things, even if it feels bad now, you can move forward. Someone with BPD sees that situation and is like, well, that's just all the evidence I need that this person is going to treat me poorly in the future, that our relationship is doomed. And so of course, they react accordingly. They react defensively or from a place of, of pain. You know, you have this fight with a friend, right? It's heated, it's rough, it's hard. And if you have bpd, sometimes you might feel like afterwards, okay, well, that friendship is over, I guess, like, that's, that's done. That person is a terrible person. They never want to see me again. So I'll be the first one and never want to see them again first, if that makes sense. And then three days later, you know, they'll text you wanting to grab a coffee or wanting to hang out and talk it through. And it's this confusion of, like, what do you mean? People can be nuanced? What do you mean this wasn't the end? You know, I'd already emotionally prepared to cut you off. What? What is this? Why doesn't everyone think the same way as me? One account I read that was really profound was this person who again was on Reddit and was like, genuinely seemed confused that someone who she had had an argument with wanted to repair the relationship. She was like, what do you mean? Surely this is all the evidence we need and that we require to know that this friendship isn't going to work out. Conflict is part of a relationship. But if you have this emotional instability in these previous experiences of being hurt or being let down, well, of course it's going to be a lot harder to tolerate. People who are actually the romantic partners of people with BPD often report really struggling sometimes with this cycle of closeness and conflict, Feeling deeply loved one moment and painfully rejected the next. There was a 2014 study that looked at this specifically the partners of people with, with bpd. And what they found was that a lot of these romantic partners reported an increased sense of hurt in the aftermath of arguments and an increased sense of caregiver burnout or caregiving anxiety. When you feel deeply, personally responsible for someone else's emotions all of the time, and that person is also, you know, a little bit difficult or impossible to predict, that takes its toll. It takes its toll on the other person. It takes its to. On the structure of the relationship as a whole. Parents of young adults or teenagers with BPD also report this feeling. There was another study, I think, in 2021 that looked at them as the main relationship in the life of someone with bpd. And again, it's this weird. It's this weird difficulty of feeling helpless and guilty, but also angry, wanting to set boundaries, but also wanting to let this person be in control because that might be the best way to manage the situation. As a result of this, which again, a lot, a lot of these people, actually, all of them, they cannot control this amplified emotional reaction. But as a result of it, there is a huge link between BPD and loneliness because of how individuals with this condition relate and interact with others. It is really common for people with BPD to self isolate as the only appropriate reaction to these behavioral patterns that, number one, they don't want, but number two, they find themselves being unable to control. They don't actually want to hurt people. They don't actually want to have this repetitive relational pattern of loving someone intensely, trusting someone intensely, and then one thing going wrong and feeling like the world is splitting open. And so because they find it difficult to manage the emotional consequences of relationships, they just avoid relationships in general. Research shows that not only are people with BPD more likely to be lonely compared to the general population, but their social networks are often much smaller, much less diverse, also less satisfying. And maybe we could even trace this back to what we were talking about before with the suicidal ideation and behavior. Loneliness is of course going to be another factor. Not only can you not control your emotional state, and you also don't get that same support socially that maybe you really need and that other people do receive. You know, I just. I can't imagine how isolating that would feel to want love and to want to be around people so badly and to really love the depth and the intensity and beauty of relationships, but also know that there's a part of you that just can't handle it. And just deciding to opt out, like that's a crazy sacrifice and a crazy decision that people have to make. And this is the thing. For people with bpd, there is this stigma that their capacity to love is kind of broken, that they can't do it normally. That's not true. It's simply tethered to fear in a way that I guess a lot of us don't really understand. Unless, of course, we're in it, unless we're experiencing it. Let's talk some more about the stigma around bpd, since we've kind of gotten started on that now, because I do think it's one of the most stigmatized mental health diagnoses out there. Part of the stigma comes from a misunderstanding about the behaviors associated with bpd, particularly the intention of these behaviors. Outwardly, someone might appear to be doing things to get attention, to be manipulative, to be dramatic. A partner might, you know, this person might frantically call you or have these very intense emotional outbursts. And you might think that that's a control tactic, that I hate you, don't leave me. Experience it. You know, it might not be manipulation. It actually rarely is manipulation in a calculated sense. It is just the only panicked way that someone with BPD can respond to a situation. They do not have the same emotional and interpersonal regulation skills that the, again, average person has. So they are not sitting there and thinking, well, if I react this way, I'm going to get a certain response. And even if they are, it's not because they want to necessarily hurt someone. They're just doing anything to get back to a place of emotional safety within the relationship. It's a survival strategy that push, pull, that the I want to let you in, but I don't know how to, or I don't want to be disappointed. It does cause them to do things that outwardly might seem really strange, but for them make perfect sense or don't make sense, but they feel like they have no control. Of course, I do think cultural representations only make matters worse. We've talked about some good representations. A lot of the stuff we see these days or the characterizations of people with BPD online are less educational, less informative. And, you know, when you see social media or TV or Movies frequently portray people with BPD as toxic exes or dangerous individuals. It reinforces this fear and the sense that they don't have empathy when that's totally not what's going on here. I will say caveat here. In some ways I do understand sometimes why people want to talk about it that way, because that's their perception and that's their truth. Their truth was that they were in a relationship with someone who had this, this condition and they experienced things that really hurt them and they experienced behaviors that maybe left them feeling very unstable and could be interpreted as dangerous. And two things can be true here. Someone can be experiencing a personality disorder they really don't have a grasp of and that might not be entirely their fault. And someone else can equally be suffering from that same condition on the other end, on the kind of sharp, pointy end of the behaviors that the person with BPD is using to protect themselves. So, so again, it's complicated, it's nuanced. I think it's hard to talk about because you want to validate someone's experience of what is again, a diagnosable mental health disorder. But you also want to understand that, yeah, people do get hurt by these behaviors, whether intentionally or not. The thing is, is that people with BPD are not sociopaths, they're not narcissists. They don't have those same, the same lack of empathy as you would maybe expect from someone who is deliberately manipulative. Maybe they have comorbidity, but it's not a significant level of them. So they get the shame. They understand it. They understand their erratic behaviors. They don't want to be like this. And that's really hard because that self criticism and these misconceptions actually make them feel more isolated and hopeless, less likely to get help. Help. Another thing we need to talk about, another layer of this actually comes from gendered assumptions around ppd. So something you may not know is that historically BPD has been diagnosed significantly more often in women. Some estimates suggest it's about 75% of diagnosed cases are female. And if we look back, this has basically reinforced this cultural stereotype that emotional intensity, volatility, relational sensitivity is inherently feminine, or that women who express, express strong emotions are somehow hysterical, overly dramatic, borderline. These stereotypes are really dangerous because they don't just influence some random person on the street's judgment. Like they shape clinical perception as well. And, and we know this because of again, those diagnosis rates a woman who is emotional, anxious, having issues in their relationship, prone to self harm, they may be more quickly labeled as borderline, whilst a man with the same underlying issues and patterns might be seen differently. And that's probably what's resulting in men being under diagnosed even when they meet the criteria for bpd. Why? Partly because the the same way that autism, an autism diagnosis has been set up to catch more young boys due to their socialization, a BPD diagnosis has been set up to catch more women because of how they have been socialized. Men tend to externalize distress in ways that society and clinicians would interpret differently. Instead of expressing sadness or fear, they might display anger or impulsivity or risk taking behaviors or substance use. These expressions can lead clinicians to assign very different diagnoses. As we talked about before, a lot of people with BPD get a lot of different labels before they find this final one that really does describe them. So for men it might be antisocial personality disorder, anger management issues, conduct disorders, and that means that the treatment they receive only addresses the reactions or the outbursts rather than the cause. The result is, you know, what we know as a gendered blind spot. Women are overrepresented in statistics. So that means that we have a very limited way of seeing this disorder that has been influenced by by gender. And it means that the disorder has often been stigmatized for just meaning that someone overreacts or is labeled as manipulative, not to be trusted. Whilst men are under recognized and they go without support entirely. Here's the thing that we have not mentioned once, which now I'm realizing I probably should have mentioned it earlier but BPD is treatable. For a long time clinicians believed it wasn't. Patients with BPD were seen as too difficult, too resistant, too uncooperative. We now know recovery, or what they call remission from this disorder is not only possible, it is incredibly common. More so than what you are thinking. Incredibly common. So we are going to take a short break now, but when we return I want to talk about that. I want to reveal why therapy for BPD is actually becoming incredibly effective. So stay with us. Life somehow feels faster and more expensive than ever. But one thing that makes it all easier is a Walmart plus membership. Who knew, right? It's got free delivery on groceries and so much more as fast as today. That means more time in the day to do the things you love and less time spent grocery shopping. Then there are the gas savings. 10 cents off per gallon at over 13,000 stations nationwide. Filling up feels a lot easier with those kinds of savings. And when the day is done Walmart helps you unwind with your choice of video streaming service included. You can choose between Paramount plus and Peacock, which means more access to the best shows and movies without paying more. It's a combination of saving time, saving money, and just getting more enjoyment out of your day through the small things. $139 prime annual fee vs $98 Walmart plus annual fee delivery $35 minimum for Walmart plus $25 minimum for Prime Gas at participating stations $0.05 in Alabama and Oklahoma. One streaming service with ads every 90 days. Additional registration required. Terms and conditions apply.
- [54:43]
Health Discovered Host
This week on a very special episode of Health Discovered, we're taking a closer look at a condition that affects hundreds of thousands of men each year. Severe prostate cancer.
- [54:53]
Health Discovered Guest
I first found out about my cancer at the age of 45. Anything with cancer, you just think death sentence.
- [55:01]
Health Discovered Host
In this episode, we'll explore the science behind detection along with the practical steps men can take to protect their health. Listen to health discovered on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Open your free iHeart app. Search health Discovered and start listening.
- [55:20]
Havoc Town Narrator
There's a vile sickness in Abbas Town. You must excise it. Dig into the deep earth and cut it out. The village is ravaged. Entire families have been consumed.
- [55:33]
Gemma
You know how waking up from a dream a familiar place can look completely alien.
- [55:40]
Havoc Town Narrator
Get back everyone, and if you see the devil walking around inside of another man, you must cut out the very heart of him, burn his body and scatter the ashes in the furthest corner of this town.
- [55:54]
Havoc Town Promo Voice
As a warning from iHeart podcasts and grim and mild from Aaron Manke, this is Havoc Town, a new fiction podcast set in the Bridgewater Audio universe, starring Jewel State and Ray Wise. Listen to Havoc town on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [56:15]
Havoc Town Narrator
The devil walks in Abbottown.
- [56:19]
Danielle Robaix
Just like great shoes. Great books take you places through unforgettable love stories and into conversations with characters you'll never forget.
- [56:28]
Gemma
I think any good romance, it gives me this feeling of like butterflies.
- [56:32]
Danielle Robaix
I'm Danielle Robaix and this is bookmarked by Reese's Book Club. The new podcast from hello Sunshine and I Podcasts where we dive into the stories that shape us on the page and off. Each week I'm joined by authors, celebs, book talk, stars and more for conversations that will make you laugh, cry and add way too many books to your TBR pile. Listen to Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your Podcasts Apple Books is the official audiobook and ebook home for Reese's Book Club. Visit Apple Co ReeseAppleBooks to find out more.
- [57:10]
Dani Shapiro
Your entire identity has been fabricated. Your beloved brother goes missing without a trace. You discover the depths of your mother's illness, the way it has echoed and reverberated throughout your life, impacting your very legacy. Hi, I'm Danny Shapiro and these are just a few of the profound and powerful stories I'll be mining on our 12th season of Family Secrets. With over 37 million downloads, we continue to be moved and inspired by our guests and their courageously told stories. I can't wait to share 10 powerful new episodes with you. Stories of tangled up identities, concealed truths, and the way in which family secrets almost always need to be told. I hope you'll join me and my extraordinary guests for this new season of Family Secrets. Listen to Family Secrets Season 12 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [58:11]
Gemma
So let me throw some statistics at you here from the National Institute of Health from 2012, these results have been reaffirmed. Later on, I think in 2024 they did a follow up study. They found that this hasn't changed a whole lot. In the study they wanted to see if someone with BPD was put into an appropriate treatment environment, how would they do and could they, quote unquote, recover. What they found was that 60% of borderline patients will achieve a recovery from borderline personality disorder. If they go through treatment, that number may be even higher. There was one such intervention where there was a 99 remission rate, showing that of almost all of the mental health disorders out there, this one is actually one that responds to treatment very well. And how they, how they kind of categorize remission is a lack of of symptoms that create distress or cause problems socially, psychologically or physically. A lot of people will find that the older they get, the more symptoms will and can ease through getting therapy and through having good therapeutic approaches to what they're experiencing. The gold standard here is dialectical behavior therapy or dbt, which we mentioned earlier. I promised that we would come back to it and here we are. What makes DBT so effective is that it was designed specifically for what you might call an under control personality type. Now before this therapy, people really couldn't figure out what to do with BPD patients. And then this amazing woman came along and she invented this and what she really realized was that people whose emotions are intense, whose emotions are quick to flare, hard to regulate who are kind of, maybe a little bit more socially abrasive at times. They need a different approach to therapy compared to the true methods of doing it. And so the key thing about DBT is that it meets people with BPD where they're at. It doesn't try and force them to control or suppress their emotions or try to over explain them or reappraise them the way that maybe other therapies do. It actually asks for people to live within and with the emotions in a way that people, people talk about as being highly, highly effective. So it's built around four key skills or pillars. The first is mindfulness. You might hear the word mindfulness and be like, oh my God, can we not talk about that anymore? And I get it. Like, I feel like mindfulness is this thing that gets thrown at any mental health problem. And it's like, well, have you tried mindfulness? Have you tried exercise? Have you tried this or that? And it's like, okay, I don't think sitting in a room and thinking about my thoughts for an hour or so is going to help me. But, but really what it's about is being grounded in the present moment. And that's something that you can control. And it's also about observing feelings without judgment. This is a very hard skill to develop. A lot of the time we will feel a feeling and we either put it in the good or the bad category. Now if you're someone who has these very polarized emotions, as is the case with bpd, where that's an even more sharper contrast, Being able to just respect an emotion and not force your way or push against it or try and force your way through it is incredibly helpful. Then there is distress tolerance. So supporting the individual so that they can survive a crisis without worsening a situation, learning how to cope with pain without acting impulsively. Then comes emotional regulation. Identifying patterns, learning strategies to reduce our vulnerability to extreme emotional sw. There's this one strategy I heard of that's like the zoo strategy. So. Or the aquarium strategy, I can't remember what it's called. Either the aquarium or the zoo strategy. And it's like watching your emotions like they're behind a glass window pane. And you can stay there for as long as you want, and you can watch how your emotions want you to react or where they're moving in your body. And then you can just walk away when you're done observing and when you get bored of that emotion. And finally, there's interpersonal effectiveness. Learning how to communicate natural needs clearly set boundaries, maintain healthy relationships, not lash out, not immediately assume abandonment. That's something that a lot of people with BB with DBT have not always. Sorry, with bpd. Oh my God, so many B's, T's and D's and P's. That's something that people with BPD haven't always been taught. This is a really, really powerful therapy. I feel like I've said that a million times. One of its unique strengths is the emphasis on validation. So it really acknowled as the reality of someone's emotional pain and it's not sitting there and being like, it's not asking someone to change overnight, it's not asking someone to not have these feelings, it's just asking for them to interact with them in a different way in a way that's actually maybe not going to work for everyone. But for people with BPD it really does. Another approach, another evidence based approach I should say is structured clinical management or scm. This was developed in the uk. As you can imagine, DBT incredibly time intensive, incredibly expensive and basically they wanted a more generalist alternative to such a therapy. Research has shown STM is that effective alternative. At its core this is about structure, consistency and support. As we've heard today, many people with BPD experience chaos in their relationships and in their daily lives. So having a reliable professional who provides guides, clear expectations, who is there as a consistent contact, who can literally just provide you with practical guidance can be profoundly stabilizing. It's like having a buddy. It offers really regular reliable support. Psycho education and basically someone who is like a sounding board when your emotions are making your thoughts very loud or making it making you think that a certain reaction is appropriate when it just might not be. Really what this provides is predictability for people whose early environments were unpredictable or invalidating. Simply having like a clinician or a trusted individual who consistently listens, who provides guidance, who doesn't withdraw in moments of crisis, can be just like the can be it. That can be the thing that you need. It's incredibly affirming. Although like the skills these kinds of treatments teach are so valuable, it's really about how they can start to create that consistency for themselves and how they can basically learn in a non avoidant way that someone leaving them, someone being mad at them, a relationship not working is not the end of the world. They can trust in themselves to survive. Again, the prognosis is really, really good and that's what makes it hard to hear about the high rate of distress and the high suicide rates and the high, high self harm rates to do with BPD because it is so misunderstood, because people don't get a label because they perhaps don't know this information. There is this whole like suffer in silence. If I talk about it, someone's going to immediately characterize me as this kind of person. This is just something I have to get over kind of mentality. And I hope this episode is kind of of lessened that for someone a little bit so they understand that actually with the right people there won't be stigma. And you, it's really like building a skill. You put the time in, you put the effort in. You can experience a different way of relating to people that you really want to love and be close to and of relating to yourself. What looks like chaos for a lot of people in these situations is usually just pain. What looks like manipulation is usually just desperation. And what looks like hopelessness is in reality like something that you can help yourself with. Like there is. There are so many stories of change and transformation in this space. I will say if you are a romantic partner of someone with bpd, maybe that's why you're listening. And I'm sure you can understand all this. You can have empathy and compassion for this person and still realize you may not want to be with them. I've kind of circled this matter cautiously throughout this episode. Abandonment is such a big issue for people with bpd. But something I've always believed is that no one is owed a relationship just because of what they're enduring or going through. And you aren't obligated to stay with someone when things are dysfunctional and when they haven't perhaps gotten the help that they need yet and it is available to them. Even if they have limited control over this reaction. It doesn't mean that you have to be there to bear the brunt of it. You know, this is what we define as a personality disorder, after all. And regardless of all the really positive statistics we have about remission, maybe at the end of the day your personalities just don't align and the condition is just part of that. They might just need to find their person the same way that we all do. So if you are also listening to this thinking, how do I manage this incredibly emotionally complacent, complex relationship with someone who's afraid of being abandoned, but I don't want to be with them anymore, Approach it with a lot of kindness. See if you can maybe get them some help. Maybe this isn't the right time. Maybe they do need to get treatment and know that the reaction they have is not always a reflection of you and that you are allowed to make the best choice in your situation. You know, this is a very complicated condition that's confusing even for those who have been experiencing it and living it for decades. So I just want to say there are still a lot of things we don't understand about this. Perhaps there will one day be a whole manual and guidebook for navigating this kind of like maze that is operating in. In the mind of everybody, but specifically the maze in the mind of people with bpd. But until then, I think it's just good to have empathy for the things that we don't understand and the things that we don't know. And empathy for you if you're experiencing BPD for living in a brain that it's probably very different to everyone else's. And I can imagine it's kind of confusing sometimes to really want to be able to respond or behave in the way that others are and just not knowing how. So I'm sending you a lot of love. I hope that this has been informative. I hope that you've gotten a good introduction. Yeah. And that things change for you if you want them to. And that you find some kind of hope at the. At the end of the tunnel. Thank you again for listening. If you have made it this far, leave a little emoji down below. What am I going to do? My emoji of. Guys, I always get this far and I. And I forget maybe like a little star. I don't know. I'm feeling. I'm feeling a star emoji today. So I know that you've made it this far. I want to thank our researcher Libby Colbert for her contributions to this episode. As a reminder, there will be resources down below below. I highly advise that you go and check them out if this episode resonated with you and if you want to learn more or if you just need some additional help, make sure you're following us on Instagram at that psychology podcast. Almost forgot my own Instagram handle that's been embarrassing. And that you are following along on Apple, Spotify, iHeartRadio, Tidal, wherever you are listening and give us a five star review if you're related or felt seen by this episode. Until next time, stay safe, be kind, be gentle with yourself and we will talk very, very soon. Life somehow feels faster and more expensive than ever. But one thing that makes it all easier is a warm up. Plus membership. Who knew, right? It's got free delivery on groceries and so much more as fast as today. That means more time in the day to do the things you love and less time spent grocery shopping. Shopping. Then there are the gas savings. 10 cents off per gallon at over 13,000 stations nationwide. Filling up feels a lot easier with those kinds of savings. And when the day is done, Walmart helps you unwind with your choice of video streaming service included. You can choose between Paramount plus and Peacock, which means more access to the best shows and movies without paying more. It's a combination of saving time, saving money and and just getting more enjoyment out of your day through the small things. $139 prime annual fee vs $98 Walmart plus annual fee delivery $35 minimum for Walmart plus $25 minimum for Prime Gas at participating stations. $0.05 in Alabama and Oklahoma. One streaming service with ads every 90 days. Additional registration required. Terms and conditions apply.
- [71:34]
Health Discovered Host
This week on a very special episode of Health Discovered, we're taking a closer look at a condition that affects hundreds of thousands of men each year. Prostate cancer.
- [71:44]
Health Discovered Guest
I first found out about my cancer on my birthday at the age of 45. Found out my cancer had spread to my pelvic bone. And from there, life just changed.
- [71:57]
Health Discovered Host
About one in eight men will be diagnosed with prostate cancer during their lifetime and the risk increases with age.
- [72:05]
Health Discovered Guest
Anything with cancer, you just think death sentence. And the only thing I could think about was who's going to take care of my family. You have to go out there and build your support system. You got to build your team.
- [72:17]
Health Discovered Host
In this episode, we'll explore the science behind detection along with the practical steps men can take to protect their health. Listen to Health Discovered on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Open your free iHeart app, search health Discovered and start listening.
- [72:39]
Havoc Town Narrator
There's a vile sickness in Abbas town. You must excise it, dig into the deep earth and cut it out. The village is ravaged. Entire families have been consumed.
- [72:53]
Gemma
You know how waking up from a dream, a familiar place can look completely alien? Get back, everyone.
- [73:02]
Havoc Town Narrator
And if you see the devil walking around inside of another man, you must cut out the very heart of him, burn his body and scatter the ashes in the furthest corner of this town.
- [73:14]
Havoc Town Promo Voice
As a warning from iHeart podcasts and grim and mild from Aaron Manke, this is Havoc Town, a new fiction podcast set in the Bridgewater audio universe, starring Jewel State and Ray Wise. Listen to Havoc town on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [73:34]
Havoc Town Narrator
The devil walks in Abbostown.
- [73:39]
Danielle Robaix
Just like great shoes, great books take you places through unforgettable love stories and into conversations with characters you'll never forget.
- [73:48]
Gemma
I think any good romance, it gives me this feeling of like Butterfly.
- [73:52]
Danielle Robaix
I'm Danielle Robaix and this is bookmarked by Reese's Book Club, the new podcast from hello Sunshine and I Heart Podcasts where we dive into the stories that shape us on the page and off. Each week I'm joined by authors, celebs, book talk stars and more for conversations that will make you laugh, cry and add way too many books to your TBR pile. Listen to Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Apple Books is the official audiobook and ebook home for Reese's Book Club. Visit Apple Co ReeseAppleBooks to find out more.
- [74:30]
Dani Shapiro
Your entire identity has been fabricated. Your beloved brother goes missing without a trace. You discover the depths of your mother's illness, the way it has echoed and reverberated throughout your life, impacting your very limit legacy. Hi, I'm Dani Shapiro and these are just a few of the profound and powerful stories I'll be mining on our 12th season of Family Secrets. With over 37 million downloads, we continue to be moved and inspired by our guests and their courageously told stories. I can't wait to share 10 powerful new episodes with you. Stories of tangled up identity, concealed truths, and the way in which family secrets almost always need to be told. I hope you'll join me and my extraordinary guests for this new season of Family Secrets. Listen to Family Secrets Season 12 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [75:30]
Gemma
With life getting busier and more expensive each year, there's one thing that helps save money and time. A warm up plus membership. Who knew? I mean you get free same day delivery on groceries and more instead of errands. You get more time to relax. Members also save 10 cents a gallon at over 13,000 gas stations nationwide, which we know really adds up. And Walmart plus even includes a video streaming choice between Paramount plus or Peacock, which is perfect for movie nights. $139 prime annual fee versus $98 Walmart plus annual fee delivery 35 bill of minimum for Walmart Plus $25 minimum for Prime Gas at participating stations. 5 cents in Alabama and Oklahoma 1 streaming service with ads. Additional registration required. Terms and conditions apply.
- [76:14]
Havoc Town Narrator
There's a vile sickness in am. You must excise it. Dig into the deep earth and cut.
- [76:23]
Havoc Town Promo Voice
It out from IHEART Podcasts and Grim and Mild from Aaron Manke. This is Havoc Town, a new fiction podcast set in the Bridgewater audio universe, starring Jewel State and Ray Wise. Listen to Havoc town on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [76:42]
Gemma
Let's start with a quick puzzle. The answer is Ken Jennings appearance on the puzzler with A.J. jacobs. The question is, what is the most entertaining listening experience in podcast land Jeopardy truthers believe in?
- [76:59]
Havoc Town Promo Voice
I guess they would be Kenspiracy theorists.
- [77:02]
Gemma
That's right.
- [77:03]
Havoc Town Promo Voice
They gave you the answers and you still blew it.
- [77:05]
Gemma
The Puzzler. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Sami Gente. It's Anna Ortiz. And I'm Mark and Delicato.
- [77:18]
Danielle Robaix
You might know us as Hilda and.
- [77:20]
Gemma
Justin from Ugly Betty.
- [77:23]
Danielle Robaix
Welcome to our new podcast, Be My Betty.
- [77:26]
Gemma
Yay. Where we watching the series from start to finish and talking to iconic guests like Betty herself, America Ferreira.
- [77:33]
Jenica Lopez
There was this moment when the glasses went on and it was like, this is our Betty.
- [77:39]
Gemma
Listen to Viva Betty starting October 2nd on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Bridget Armstrong, host of the new podcast the Curse of America's Next Top Model. I've been investigating the real story behind that icon iconic show.
- [77:56]
Dani Shapiro
I ended up having anorexia issues, bulimia issues.
- [78:00]
Gemma
By talking to the models, the producers, and the people who profited from it all. We basically sold our souls and they got rich. If you were so rooting for her and saw her drowning, why don't you help her? Listen to the Curse of America's Next Top model on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. This is an iHeart podcast.