341. The 5 types of toxic friendships

Summary

---

Episode Summary: The 5 Types of Toxic Friendships

Podcast: The Psychology of Your 20s
Host: Jemma Sbeg
Episode: 341
Date: October 9, 2025

---

Overview

In this episode, host Jemma Sbeg explores the uncomfortable but essential topic of toxic friendships, specifically the five most common types we might encounter in our 20s and beyond. The discussion covers how to recognize toxic dynamics, the psychological (and even physiological) impacts, why it’s so hard to walk away, and practical steps for navigating these challenges—including managing awkward group dynamics and healing after a friendship breakup.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Unique Importance of Friendships in Your 20s

• Friendship as the “Scaffolding” of Self (03:30):
  Jemma describes your 20s as the “friendship decade,” where friends often replace family as our primary support system:

  “Friends step into this empty space left by family ... and they become everything to us, they become like family. I know that sounds so cringe, but we know that's the truth.” (04:57)

• Wellbeing Correlations:
  A 2023 study cited from Frontiers in Psychology found adult friendship to be the strongest predictor of young adults' life satisfaction—higher even than career or romantic status (05:44).

• Biological Synchrony of Friendship:
  Jemma mentions neuroscientist Ruth Feldman’s work, which shows close friends can literally synchronize heart rates and brain activity, and lower each other’s stress (06:17):

  “Being near a trusted friend can and will significantly lower your stress levels.” (06:49)

2. What Does “Toxic” Mean in Friendships?

• Focuses on Dynamics, Not Identity:
  Toxic is about the relationship dynamic, not labeling a person as inherently “bad.”

  “I don't think that anyone can be toxic. We all have character traits and flaws... There are some people maybe are more malicious and manipulative than others. It does not mean they are inherently a poisonous person.” (09:05)

---

The 5 Types of Toxic Friendships

1. The Competitor (09:45)

• Characteristics:
  Always one-upping your achievements, turning everything—even suffering—into a contest.
• Psychology:
  Often rooted in their own insecurity and social comparison:

  “Their knee jerk reaction is to match it, beat it or downplay it... The root of this is usually social comparison.” (10:15)

• Impact:
  Over time, sharing with them feels pointless and self-censorship grows.

2. The Critic/Controller (12:10)

• Characteristics:
  Constantly nitpicks your choices, belittles, “just being honest” but rarely supportive.
• Masking Concern as Care:
  “At first, maybe you'll laugh, maybe you'll see them as being protective. Over time though, this steady drip of criticism starts to kind of poison everything else.” (12:56)
• Referencing the Gottman Institute:
  Criticism is one of the biggest predictors of relationship breakdown, alongside contempt, defensiveness, and stonewalling (14:00).

---

[Short Break – Ads skipped]

---

3. The Gossip (20:58)

• Characteristics:
  Always talks about others, rarely shares about themselves, makes you feel “on the inside”—until you realize they probably talk about you the same way.
• Social Currency:

  “They tend to use other’s secrets as social currency, like a form of money, as a way to gain power for themselves.” (22:16)

• Breakdown of Trust:
  Once you realize they share your secrets, intimacy collapses.

4. The Victim/Manipulator (23:46)

• Characteristics:
  Perpetually wronged, never responsible, your needs never surface in conversation.
• Boundary Flipping:
  If you set a boundary, they might emotionally manipulate (“I guess I’m a bad friend, I’ll just leave you alone”), leading to guilt and exhaustion.
• Hardest to Leave:

  “I think of all the five toxic friendships, this is the hardest one to walk away from.” (25:27)

• Extreme Case:
  Occasionally drifts into gaslighting, making you question your own perceptions.

5. The Mean Friend (26:06)

• Characteristics:
  The rarest, but the most overt—mocking, sabotaging, betraying trust.
• Combination:
  Embodies traits of all the other toxic types, sometimes even a family member or work colleague.
• Attachment Wounds:
  Can leave scars akin to romantic attachment wounds due to betrayal and hostility.

---

Recognizing Toxic Friendships: Subtle Red Flags (28:11)

• Emotional Residue:
  You feel worse after seeing them. Emotional residue can show up as relief at a cancelled plan, feeling small or drained after time together.

• Physical Health Consequences:
  Jemma references a 2012 University of Utah study linking turbulent relationships to shorter telomeres (chromosome damage markers), increasing risk for chronic disease:

  “These participants... had a higher risk of chronic conditions and stress reactivity compared to people who had all great relationships. But interestingly also people who just had a lot of pretty terrible relationships.” (31:42)

• Inconsistency Hurts Most:
  The emotional whiplash of intermittent good and bad periods in a friendship can cause the most harm.

---

Contrasting With Healthy Friendships (32:42)

• Six Qualities (Meddleson & Abbott):
  1. Stimulating companionship
  2. Help and guidance
  3. Intimacy
  4. Reliable alliance
  5. Emotional security
  6. Self-validation
• Celebration vs. Competition:

  “A good friend celebrates you instead of competing with you, they encourage you instead of criticizing you, they listen to you, they spend time with you, they don’t gossip about you.” (33:15)

• Resilience During Stress:
  Good friendships protect against stress and help maintain wellbeing over time.

---

Why Don’t We Just Walk Away? (37:06)

• Personal Story:
  Jemma shares her own experience with childhood bullying and staying with hurtful friends out of fear of isolation:

  “I stayed friends with those people until I left the state. Why did I do that? Part of it is history... you’ve woven them into your life.” (37:50)

• The Trap of Intermittent Reinforcement:
  The unpredictability of good moments keeps us hooked—mirroring phenomena in gambling, toxic romance, and addiction:

  “It's not weakness that keeps us stuck, but actually a very human desire to preserve the connection. And this kind of cycle makes it really hard to walk away.” (40:09)

• Pattern Recognition:
  Instead of counting chances, consider: have they changed after being given chances? Do they repair or repeat?

• Rupture & Repair:

  “Healthy relationships aren't perfect—they're not defined by the absence of conflict, but the ability to repair this conflict. This is known in psychology as rupture and repair theory.” (41:51)

---

How to Address Toxic Friendships

1. Clarity First (43:12)

• Start With Honest Conversation:
  Frame concerns around your feelings, not accusations:

  “When we frame our concerns around our own feelings, we leave the door open for, again, repair.” (44:09)

• Avoid Ghosting:
  Even if tempting, directness is usually healthier for all involved.

2. Setting and Enforcing Boundaries (46:03)

• Boundaries are Not Punishments:

  “Boundaries are the distance at which I can love you and still love myself simultaneously.” (46:54)

• Be Specific:
  Name behaviors and explain how you’ll respond if they continue.

3. Lean on Other Friends for Perspective (49:10)

• Reality Check:
  Toxic friends can distort your perception; supportive friends restore your sense of reasoning and worth.
• Prepare for Gaslighting:
  Rehearse calm responses to deflection or minimization.

4. Permission to Step Back (50:14)

• Let Friendships Fade:
  Allowing some relationships to fade is healthy and not a failure.

5. Managing Group Dynamics (51:28)

• Don’t Force Sides:
  Stay neutral, don’t recruit others, and let people draw their own conclusions.
• Handle Awkwardness With Kindness:

  “Your job isn't to convince them... You are showing the group, you are showing yourself that you are bigger than the drama.” (52:07)

---

Friendship Breakups & Healing (53:00)

• Acknowledge the Grief:
  The end of a friendship can be just as hard as a romantic breakup.

• Reinvest in Yourself:
  Use gained space for new hobbies, connecting with others, and rebuilding confidence.

• Celebrate the Upgrade:

  “They're losing the person that gave them a bunch of chances, that talked them through their behavior, that celebrated them, that loved them. For whatever reason, the friendship didn't work out ... that doesn't mean that you didn't try your hardest and that you're not still a catch.” (54:49)

• Hope for Good Friendships:
  Jemma reassures listeners that, despite hard experiences, rewarding friendships are possible if you hold out for them.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Not every friendship is meant to last forever. Yet we so often hold on because friendship is wrapped up in these ideas of loyalty and longevity." (03:15)
• "Even your best friends—your relationship with them biologically changes your chemistry." (06:20)
• "Criticism is one of the biggest signs of relationship breakdown, according to [the Gottman Institute], and it sits alongside contempt, defensiveness and stonewalling." (14:01)
• “Emotional residue actually accumulates ... it's not just emotionally draining, this actually has a huge impact on how we feel in our bodies.” (29:09)
• "Intermittent reinforcement... the bond becomes even harder to break because you keep chasing the next good moment and you hope that it will be enough to outweigh the bad." (39:37)
• “Boundaries are the distance at which I can love you and still love myself simultaneously.” (46:54)
• “You cannot be friends with every single person you've ever met for the rest of your life. That is actually a gain.” (55:14)
• “Hold out for good friends just like you would for a good relationship.” (55:35)

---

Episode Structure & Timestamps

• 02:09 — 07:00: Setting the stage—friendship’s role in our 20s, scientific studies on adult friendship and wellbeing
• 09:45 — 16:40: The first two toxic friendship types (Competitor and Critic/Controller)
• 20:58 — 25:27: The Gossip
• 25:27 — 26:06: The Victim/Manipulator
• 26:06 — 28:10: The Mean Friend
• 28:11 — 33:35: Recognizing toxic friendships, emotional residue, and the toll on health
• 32:42 — 33:35: What healthy friendship looks like; the six qualities
• 37:06 — 41:51: Why bad friendships are hard to leave (personal stories, psychology, intermittent reinforcement, rupture & repair theory)
• 43:12 — 55:35: Navigating and exiting toxic friendships, setting boundaries, managing group dynamics, friendship breakups, rediscovering good friendships

---

Tone & Style:
Direct, compassionate, often humorous (“I know that sounds so cringe... but it’s the truth”), highly relatable, and research-informed.

---

Final Message

Jemma concludes with hope, encouraging listeners to set boundaries, seek clarity, and trust that investing in healthy friendships is always worthwhile. She invites listeners to reflect on and celebrate the non-toxic friends in their lives.

---

Transcript

[Anna Ortiz]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Stephanie Beatriz]

I'm Stephanie Beatriz, actor and Walmart plus member. I get the same big benefits as prime for a whole lot less. Like free same day delivery, gas savings plus a video streaming choice included. All for only 98 bucks a year. So if you like money, specifically your money and saving it, you might want to switch to the membership that costs less. Walmart. Who knew? Switch and save today. $139Prime annual fee versus $98 Walmart plus annual fee $35 minimum delivery with Walmart plus $25 minimum delivery with Prime One streaming service every 90 days. Additional registration required. Terms and conditions apply.

[Anna Ortiz]

What happens when Delta Air Lines sends four creators around the world to find out what is the true power of travel? It's these small moments of intention, right?

[Podcast Narrator/Host (Psychology of Your 20s and Havoc Town announcer)]

Not just people to places and destinations. It's connecting people to other people, other cultures, and ultimately experiences that can't be replicated.

[Anna Ortiz]

Find out more about how travel can support wellbeing on this special episode of the Psychology of youf 20s, presented by Delta Fly and Live. Better listen wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ed Helms]

Hey, it's Ed Helms, host of Snafu, my podcast about history's greatest screw ups. On our new season, we're bringing you a new snafu Every single episode.

[Anna Ortiz]

32 lost nuclear weapons. You're like, wait, stop. What?

[Ed Helms]

Yeah, it's gonna be a whole lot of history, a whole lot of funny, and a whole lot of fabulous guests. Paul Scheer, Angela and Jenna. Nick Kroll, Jordan Klepper. Listen to season four of SNAFU with Ed Helms on the iHeartRadio app at Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Aaron Manke]

There's a vile sickness in Ambassadown. You must excise it. Dig into the deep earth and cut it out.

[Podcast Narrator/Host (Psychology of Your 20s and Havoc Town announcer)]

From iheart Podcasts and Grim and Mild from Aaron Manke. This is Havoc Town, a new fiction podcast set in the Bridgewater audio universe, starring Jewel State and Ray Wise. Listen to Havoc town on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Anna Ortiz]

Hello everybody and welcome back to the psychology of your 20s. The podcast where we talk through some of the big life changes and transitions of our 20s and what they mean for our psychology. Hello everybody. Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to the podcast. New listeners, old listeners, wherever you are in the world, it is so great to have you here back for another episode as we of course break down the psychology of our 20s. When we think of friendships, I'd hope most of us Think of these very glorious relationships like the reason the world spins, the most glorious moments of laughter and conversation and like someone who you don't have to explain yourself to. And like ultimately comfortability. Friendship is obviously supposed to be kind of a place of like ease and safety and joy. But sometimes, you know, let's just say it very simply, it just isn't. Sometimes a friendship does start to feel more like an obligation or a drain or a source of anxiety. Unfortunately for those who have, you know, those of us who have been in this situation, some friendships can become very toxic and show patterns of control and disrespect and manipulation that do a number on us, really start to chip away at our self esteem. And that brings me to the focus of today's episode. Obviously we are talking about toxic friendships, specifically the five types of toxic friendships that you will encounter not just in your 20s, but I think in life in general. I obviously love focusing on like the beauty of friendship and like how wonderful it is and how much it brings us. And I'm kind of always a little bit bummed to talk about the less positive sides of friendship, but it does need to be acknowledged. We are so good at talking about red flags in relationships, signs of toxic or narcissistic partners. But platonic relationships are just as important and therefore can sometimes be just as difficult and harmful. And in your 20s, I think this is even more complicated. Friendship means so much to us in this decade, but also your life is rapidly changing and sometimes our friendships don't match up with what else is happening in our life. Maybe you've had or you have found success and suddenly this relationship has become competitive or your friends made new friends and now it's one sided, now it's rooted in criticism. Now you're no longer supporting each other. Here's the truth. Not every friendship is meant to last forever. Yet we so often hold on because friendship is wrapped up in these ideas of loyalty and longevity. And I think at the end of the day, hope we all have this image. We've all talked to our friends about being in each other's weddings, knowing each other's children, being in the nursing home together. And so when that becomes obvious that that's not going to be the future, it can feel like a betrayal. But sometimes it is absolutely necessary and quite frankly worth it to acknowledge when a friendship is no longer suiting us or when it has turned toxic. So today we're going to talk about that. The five types of toxic friendships that we might encounter, how to recognize them, how to know when you're in one, how to navigate getting out of one. Especially when you're in like a broader friendship group and when it is absolutely time to, to. To walk away, time to say just goodbye and how to do that. There's quite a lot, I've realized there's a lot to talk about. But I am ready. I hope you are too. Without further ado, let's get into it. If you think back to being a child, you know, your world was relatively small. Like the people who mattered to you are like your family. And like the neighborhood kids or like the kids you go to school with. They weren't really chose, they're just kind of there. Same thing in adolescence. Maybe they matter a little bit more, but it's definitely tied up in like school and proximity. Your 20s are very different. Everything kind of splinters. You meet so many new people. This is the decade where you truly choose a lot of those meaningful relationships and those choices make a huge difference. You might be living away from family, living in a new city where you don't know anyone, you're figuring out who you are and your friends become the scaffolding for that new sense of self. It's why this decade gets called the friendship decade, mainly, mainly by me. But I'm trying to get it to catch on. You know, you're not tied down by the same responsibilities that take over later on, like marriage, kids, big career investments, big financial investments. But you also aren't like the main relationship you have isn't the one you have with your family anymore. Friends step into this empty space left by family and before, you know, kids or a major life partner steps in and they become everything to us, they become like family. I know that sounds so cringe, but we know that's the truth. We know that they are more important in this decade than any other. And there's good reason for this. A 2023 study published in Frontiers in Psychology actually demonstrated that adult friendships are the strongest predictor of life satisfaction for young adults. Even more than career success, finances or romantic status. That's crazy. It means that, you know, the person sitting across from you at the cafe right now or the person in your group chat has more of an influence on your well being and whether you're going to be happy and whether than almost anything else right now. A healthy friendship gives us psychological safety. First of all, it gives us a space where we can be confused and we can be messy and we can be ambitious or we can be vulnerable without fear of being judged. And I Think they also give us a mirror. You know, we really see ourselves reflected in how our friends respond to us. When a friend tells us they're proud of you, you know, that gives you a boost. When they tell you to kind of pull your head in, that humbles you. You see yourself through them and friendship, which I don't think a lot of people know, actually regulates us biologically. The neuroscientist Ruth Feldman has conducted a lot of research in this area and her work has shown that close friends that spend time together, their physiological states literally sync up. Their heart rates align, their bodies release oxytocin in tandem, their brain activity shows similar patterns. This is a phenomenon bio behavioral synchrony. And it explains why being near a trusted friend can and will significantly lower your stress levels. I have this with a couple of my friends, but I'm really thinking about my best friend. I surprised her recently in Tasmania, which is like this tiny island off of Australia where she lives. And every time I'm around her, we always talk about how calm and co regulated we feel. Like everything just feels lighter and easier and softer. In other words, you know, really great friendships don't just make life enjoyable, they actually make you a more stable version of yourself. So that's why when a friendship tips into like unhealthy territory, the damage can feel so destabilizing. Because in essence, you know, you're not just losing a relationship, you're losing a co regulator, you're losing a mirror, you're losing a source of strength. So with that in mind, let's dive into these five types of toxic friendships to look out for. Firstly, I want to just give a brief caveat. What do we mean when we actually say by toxic? I don't think that toxic describes a person. I'm using it to describe a relationship. I fully believe this. I don't think that anyone can be toxic. We all have character traits and flaws that someone else won't like, but other people won't have an issue with. There are some people that maybe are more malicious and manipulative than others. It doesn't mean that they are inherently a poisonous person. I also believe people inherently have a capacity to change. That's my personal belief. There are things in my past that I'm not entirely proud of. There are moments that I have let someone down and I've done the wrong thing absolutely. Like I. I can remember these times when I didn't think about someone else's feelings and that really hurt them. But I know I have grown and I'VE acknowledged my role and my actions and that has really helped me have this new perspective. For friends that have hurt me in the past, it's not always fair to judge someone based on the last impression you had of them five years ago, 10 years ago. We change so much in that time. Especially if you were like under the age of 30 when it happened. I think only true sociopaths can be labeled as toxic. And even then some of them are very functional and they learn empathy and they are no different to you and me in terms of how they act in friendships. So what we are referring to here is toxic dynamics and the friction that can be created between two people because of how one person is acting, another person is responding, their environment and how their personalities may be clashing. So I just want to clear that up at the top. That being said, let's introduce the first type of toxic friendship, the competitor. For this type of friend or friendship, everything feels like they're trying to one up you, you got a new job. Well, that doesn't compare at all to their promotion that they had last month. You just ran 5k. Well, they're training for a 10k so good luck with that. If you've gone to London, they went to Paris. Each time you share successes or something you're proud of, their knee jerk reaction is to match it, beat it or downplay it. Even suffering can become a contest. I don't know if you've experienced this, but you know what? That one friend where if you're stressed, they're more stressed. If you're hurt, they're hurting worse. If they've been through a breakup, well, you should hear about their breakup from five years ago. It was awful. This isn't just annoying. Over time it really erodes your ability to share anything with them because why would you, why would you if they're just going to turn it into a competition? The root of this is usually social comparison, right? And it comes from an insecurity in them. They see something in you that threatens their obviously quite weak sense of self. And so they have to engage in a very specific form of social comparison called downward social comparison to make themselves feel better by making you positioning you as inferior to them. But it often means that you start to censor yourself. And one of the best parts of friendship is sharing your achievements and also sharing your hard moments. If you can't do that, what's the point? You know, what's the point of genuinely never being able to communicate anything good or bad about your life? So that's number one, that's the competitor. Secondly, there's the friend who always, always has something to say about what you're doing. This next type of toxic friend, we're going to call the critic or the controller. You tell them you're trying a new hobby, they roll their eyes, they tell you it's, you know, it's actually really bad for the environment that you won't stick with it. That, that's kind of lame. You're dating someone new. Well, they pick apart their flaws. They talk about how terrible they might be for you, how you could do better. At first, maybe you'll laugh, maybe you'll see them as being protective. Over time though, this like steady drip of criticism starts to kind of poison everything else. This can also sometimes transform into straight up belittlement, whereby they act as if they always know best, they make you feel smaller, like your decisions are never going to be right, they're never going to be good enough. And again, what's tricky is that this is often disguised as care. Right? They might phrase it as, I just don't want to see you get hurt, or I'm only telling you this because I care. But if they actually cared or they were mature enough to show they cared properly, it would actually build you up and give you the confidence to act in your own way. Something like, hey, I support you no matter what, but have you considered this? Or you do what's best for you, you know, I'll always be there if you need me, but have you considered this other thing? Do you see, like the shift in framing here? They would be delicate about it, they would be gentle. That is what a friend should do. And sure, you know, you actually don't want a friend who is always going to agree with you or lie to you. I always say the best sign of a friendship is someone who's going to be ruthlessly honest with you when it is helpful. But if you always disagree with someone in every single thing and if it's always like a power struggle, why are you even friends? Surely there's someone better. In fact, their constant criticism is often a way to try and keep you small and control you and to assert dominance, according to the Gottman Institute. The Gottman Institute is basically like one of the leading marriage and relationship expert groups in the world. They say that criticism is one of their four horsemen of the relationship apocalypse. It is like one of the biggest signs of relationship breakdown, according to them, and it sits alongside contempt, defensiveness and stonewalling. And it's damaging because of how it breaks down trust in a relationship and put someone on edge constantly. Criticism is also a sign that contempt will build on your end or defensiveness will occur and eventually you will get to that stonewalling stage where you just don't care anymore. If they're going to give their opinion like, and you don't want to listen to it, why listen to anything they have to say? Okay, so so far we've had the competitor and we've had the critic. We are going to take a short break now, but when we return, let's introduce you to our three remaining toxic friendships. Stay with us.

[Stephanie Beatriz]

I'm Stephanie Beatriz, actor and Walmart plus member. I get the same big benefits as prime for a whole lot less. Like free same day delivery, gas savings plus a video streaming choice included, all for only 98 bucks a year. So if you like money, specifically your money and saving it, you might want to switch to the membership that costs less. Walmart plus who knew? Switch and save today. $139 prime annual fee versus $98 Walmart plus annual fee $35 minimum delivery with Walmart Plus $25 minimum delivery with Prime. One streaming service with ads every 90 days. Additional registration required. Terms and conditions apply.

[Anna Ortiz]

What happens when Delta Air Lines sends four creators around the world to find out what is the true power of travel? I think it helped me sort of like get grounded.

[Podcast Narrator/Host (Psychology of Your 20s and Havoc Town announcer)]

I think I unlocked some, like, childhood dream.

[Anna Ortiz]

Turn my stress into excitement. Take that gratitude from those experiences into your daily life. That's why I connected with Dr. Henry Ting, Delta's chief health and wellness officer, an instrumental voice behind this travel experiment. Traveling in general is going to give you that social and cultural and psychological and emotional expansion.

[Podcast Narrator/Host (Psychology of Your 20s and Havoc Town announcer)]

Yeah. You know, at Delta, we like to say no one better connects the world. It's connecting not just people to destinations, it's connecting people to other people, other cultures and ultimately experiences that can't really be replicated.

[Anna Ortiz]

Find out more about how travel can support wellbeing on this special episode of the Psychology of youf 20s presented by Delta. Fly and live. Better listen wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ed Helms]

Hey, it's Ed Helms. And welcome back to snafu, my podcast about history's greatest screw ups. On our new season, we're bringing you a new snafu.

[Podcast Narrator/Host (Psychology of Your 20s and Havoc Town announcer)]

Every single episode.

[Anna Ortiz]

32 lost nuclear weapons. You're like, wait, stop. What? Ernie Shackleton sounds like a solid 70s.

[Ed Helms]

Basketball player who still wore knee pads.

[Anna Ortiz]

Yes.

[Ed Helms]

It's gonna be a whole lot of history, a whole lot of funny, and a whole Lot of guests. The great Paul Scheer made me feel good. I'm like, oh, wow, Angela and Jenna, I am so psyched you're here.

[Anna Ortiz]

What was that like for you to.

[Aaron Manke]

Soft launch into the show?

[Ed Helms]

Sorry, Jenna.

[Podcast Narrator/Host (Psychology of Your 20s and Havoc Town announcer)]

I'll be asking the questions today.

[Anna Ortiz]

I forgot whose podcast we were doing.

[Ed Helms]

Nick Kroll. I hope this story is good enough to get you to toss that sandwich. So let's see how it goes. Listen to season four of SNAFU with Ed Helms on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Aaron Manke]

There's a vile sickness in Amber's Town. You must excise it, dig into the deep earth, and cut it out. The village is ravaged. Entire families have been consumed.

[Anna Ortiz]

You know how waking up from a dream, a familiar place can look completely alien? Get back, everyone. Let's go back.

[Aaron Manke]

And if you see the devil walking around inside of another man, you must cut out the very heart of him, burn his body, and scatter the ashes in the furthest corner of this town.

[Podcast Narrator/Host (Psychology of Your 20s and Havoc Town announcer)]

As a warning from iHeart podcasts and grim and mild from Aaron Manke, this is Havoc Town, a new fiction podcast set in the Bridgewater audio universe, starring Jewel State and Ray Wise. Listen to Havoc town on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Aaron Manke]

The Devil Walks in Alicetown.

[Anna Ortiz]

Okay, so we have two down, three to go. Are you ready? After the competitor and the critic, we have the gossip. I know we've all met one of these people before. The funny thing about them is that they can actually be really magnetic at first. And, you know, they are often the ones who always know what's happening. They seem kind of popular because they know everything in everyone's business. Being close to them can feel like being on the inside. They're often very charismatic. But eventually you realize, hey, I don't think they've talked about themselves once. They only talk about other people or their opinions about other people. Or maybe in between all the gossip, they start asking you really personal, really intrusive questions about your life. And then you kind of have this realization like, huh. If they're talking about everyone else like this, they're probably talking about me too. I don't think that I'm the gonna be excluded from this. I'm fairly sure, like, I'm gonna be a target that breaks trust. And once that trust is broken, I think it's nearly impossible to feel safe about opening up again. Friendship thrives on confidentiality and on the belief that your vulnerabilities are held close and careful. So when those get broadcast, any foundation of intimacy like falls apart. I've also found that with the gossip, they tend to use others secrets as social currency, like as a form of money, like they're a way to gain power for themselves. And so when you're the kind of person who they're sacrificing, like it doesn't feel good. Your secrets are being used to bolster their ego. Eventually all of that kind of social secret mining, it's going to turn on them, it's going to turn on you. I promise you that. You will realize one day that someone knows something about you that you did not tell them. Who told them that the gossip. Additionally, I also just think it gets pretty boring talking about other people all the time and it feels kind of nasty. You feel the empathy and guilt in your body. It's not to say that none of us, all of us like shouldn't be gossiping. It's actually a very natural human thing. But afterwards, I don't know about you, I feel pretty gross about it. And I always feel the need to be like, oh, you know, but they're such a good person, but this, this, this. So if your friends were someone who's always gossiping and doesn't seem to have that same reaction, sometimes it could say something deeper about your values. You can kind of end up thinking like, how in the world do you have the stamina for this? What else are they actually even interested in? What do we even talk about? What's left in their own life? Nothing. It's not necessarily that your secrets are being shared. It might just be that this friendship is kind of boring. This next toxic friendship is actually pretty hard to spot. And this is the victim or the manipulator. The victim is always wronged. Their boss is always unfair to them, their partner is always cruel, Their other friends are neglectful. At first you might feel bad for them, of course you would. Of course you would want to believe them. You know, how awful are these people treating them? This is so terrible. You want to show them support. But somewhere along the line you do begin to notice how your needs never really make it into the conversation. And another thing you may notice is that they never seem to take responsibility for their actions. Of course there are always going to be times when someone needs more support than others within a friendship. It can't always be a 5050 split. But if nothing ever resolves, even after your advice, your assistance, your comfort, and it's always a new person for them. Well, I don't know. I just don't believe one person's luck is ever that bad. What might happen is that when you finally set a boundary and you say, you know, I can't hang out, I'm super exhausted, or you mentioned that you feel a little bit unheard, or you don't feel great, they flip the script. They might say something like, well, I guess I'm a bad friend, I guess I'll just leave you alone then. Leaving you feeling guilty, wondering if you were too harsh, even though all you did was put a boundary in place. In the most extreme cases, I do think this sometimes veers into gaslighting. They might turn the narrative so that you're the one at fault for their unhappiness. You become the villain they tell all their other friends about maybe converging in a sense into the gossip as well. This constant cycle of trying to do the right thing, guilt, self doubt, and then exhaustion is super draining. And it can leave you kind of unsure of where you stand. You don't want to let them down, but you also want to respect yourself. I think of all the five toxic friendships, this is the hardest one to walk away from. Finally we have the rarest type of all and that is the friend who is just downright mean. They are the combination of competitive controlling, the gossip and the victim. Sometimes you might struggle to find like literally any redeeming quality about them. Them. Simply put, they are just not very nice to you. They make you the punchline of the jokes in the group setting. They always seem to ruin a perfectly nice time. They are always hostile, they betray you, they flirt with your partner, they out a secret about you, they sabotage you. This person may be a friend. I also think that they could sometimes be a family member, a sibling, a colleague, to put it frankly. Like you can tell they don't like you, but for some reason, like they end up remaining in your life. Maybe because you run in the same circles, maybe because you know your lives are so intertwined. Maybe they're family, maybe they are super nice sometimes, but their hostility is also super obvious. I think all of these toxic friendships can leave scars. This kind in particular though I think can cause attachment wounds very similar to that of a romantic relationship because it can feel like a full on affront. Before we talk about the question you're probably all asking right now, why don't we just walk away? Let's just quickly talk about how you can spot if you are in a friendship with with this kind of dynamic. One of the hardest Parts of recognizing a toxic friendship is that the red flags don't always look obvious. It's not like someone is being like, woohoo, don't be friends with me, I'm going to treat you terribly. And it's not like when a partner has been awful to you, you know, if they've cheated or were nasty to you. It's pretty clear cut and we talk about it openly. Like I said, we talk about red flags in relationships all the time. But with friends it's a lot more subtle. It's the way you shrink a little when you see them come in the room. It's the feeling of relief when your plans get cancelled. It's noticing that after hanging out with them, you feel worse about yourself, not better. So a concept we might use to refer to this is what we call emotional residue. Even when the conversation is over, even when the hangout is done, that negative sticky residue lingers. You feel gross, you replay what you said, you question if you overreacted, you feel really drained. And over time, that residue actually accumulates as well. It's not just emotionally draining. This actually has a huge impact on how we feel in our bodies. Studies on social stress show that difficult relationships elevate cortisol, they impair sleep, they weaken immunity. One such study published in 2012 by the University of Utah shows the extent of this impact. So in the study, this involved 136 adults and they looked into their relationships with friends, with family, with acquaintances, and they measured both the positive and negative feeling associated with these bonds. The researchers were basically looking into whether there was any difference in the length of the participants. Telomeres. Telomeres are basically the protective caps we have on our chromosomes. Basically they protect our DNA from damage. They're like helmets for our DNA. It's kind of technical, but basically the shorter the telomere, the higher the risk of chronic diseases and a shorter lifespan. And they wanted to see is there a link between positive and negative relationships and telomere length. What they found was that for the participants with a higher number of relationships that had both really high highs and really low lows, basically a toxic friendship, the shorter the length of the telomeres. Let's dive into these findings a little bit more. They basically suggest that these participants who had been in turbulent up and down relationships, had a higher risk of chronic conditions and stress reactivity compared to people who had obviously all great relationships. But interestingly also people who just had a lot of pretty terrible relationships. According to the findings of this study, what really mattered here. What really impacted health and telomere length was the intensity of the switch up and was the kind of toxicity meter of these relationships. And it was the fact that there were some good parts and some bad parts, this emotional push and pull that was dangerous. That means that even when the friendship isn't necessarily all bad, the inconsistency itself in those friendships is what can take a toll. So to contrast that, let's talk about what a good friendship feels like. And I know this feels kind of silly, but I actually think this is really, really fascinating and I've never seen anyone talk about this before. In the 90s, researchers Meddleson and Abbott proposed a model of six key qualities of strong friendships. These included stimulating companionship, so engaging in enjoyable activities together, help providing each other with support and guidance, intimacy, so sharing personal things with each other. They also included a reliable alliance, so trust, emotional security and self validation. Basically, you encourage each other to feel good about each other and to maintain a positive self image. That means a good friend celebrates you instead of competing with you. They encourage you instead of criticizing you, they listen to you, they spend time with you, they don't gossip about you. Not only does the research suggest that those who have more of these good quality strong friendships tend to rate their life satisfaction and their well being more highly. But a follow UP study in 2022 found that having these strong friendships is almost protective against stress. So that study was done in Austria. It found, and it focused on university students during the pandemic and it found that when they had good friendships, they actually suffered less long term. Obviously, like that's a different time now. But I still think this plays out on a lot of other scales. You know, they are what keeps us strong. And so if you've got someone who secretly wants to be your worst enemy and secretly like secretly wants to see you fail, hmm. It's not, they're pretty, it's not gonna help like it. It's hard to notice them, but their impact is felt. So if it's so clear that these toxic relationships harm us, why do we stay? This is complicated. I've asked myself this question many times, so let's talk about it after this short break.

[Stephanie Beatriz]

I'm Stephanie Beatriz, actor and Walmart member. Today I'm faced with a very tough decision. Which video streaming service do I want? Walmart gives members a choice between Paramount or Peacock. Which is like asking, would you rather have cookies or brownies? Super strength or invisibility? Feet for hands or hands for feet?

[Anna Ortiz]

Ugh.

[Stephanie Beatriz]

I'm gonna have to think about this. Walmart plus members choose their video streaming service at no extra cost. Who knew? Choose one ad supported service every 90 days. Peacock Premium or Paramount plus essential. Additional registration required. Terms and conditions apply.

[Anna Ortiz]

What happens when Delta Air Lines sends four creators around the world to find out what is the true power of travel? I think it helped me sort of like get grounded.

[Podcast Narrator/Host (Psychology of Your 20s and Havoc Town announcer)]

I think I unlocked some, like, childhood.

[Stephanie Beatriz]

Dream, turn my stress into excitement.

[Anna Ortiz]

Take that gratitude from those experiences into your daily life. That's why I connected with Dr. Henry Ting, Delta's chief health and wellness officer and instrumental voice behind this travel experiment. Traveling in general is going to give you that social and cultural and psychological and emotional expansion.

[Podcast Narrator/Host (Psychology of Your 20s and Havoc Town announcer)]

Yeah, you know, at Delta, we like to say no one better connects the world. It's connecting not just people to destinations. It's connecting people to other people, other cultures, and ultimately experiences that can't really be replicated by.

[Anna Ortiz]

Find out more about how travel can support wellbeing on this special episode of the psychology of your 20s, presented by Delta. Fly and live Better listen wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ed Helms]

Hey, it's Ed Helms. And welcome back to Snafu, my podcast about history's greatest screw ups. On our new season, we're bringing you a new snafu every single episode.

[Anna Ortiz]

32 lost nuclear weapons. You're like, wait, stop. What? Ernie Shackleton sounds like a solid 70s.

[Ed Helms]

Basketball player who still wore knee pads.

[Anna Ortiz]

Yes.

[Ed Helms]

It's gonna be a whole lot of history, a whole lot of funny, and a whole lot of guests. The great Paul Scheer made me feel good. I'm like, oh, wow, Angela and Jenna, I am so psyched you're here.

[Anna Ortiz]

What was that like for you to.

[Aaron Manke]

Soft launch into the show?

[Ed Helms]

Sorry, Jenna.

[Podcast Narrator/Host (Psychology of Your 20s and Havoc Town announcer)]

I'll be asking the questions today.

[Anna Ortiz]

I forgot whose podcast we were doing.

[Ed Helms]

Nick Kroll. I hope this story is good enough to get you to toss that sandwich. So let's, let's, let's see how it goes. Listen to season four of SNAFU with Ed Helms on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Aaron Manke]

There's a vile sickness in Amber's town. You must excise it, dig into the deep earth and cut it out. The village is ravaged. Entire families have been consumed.

[Anna Ortiz]

You know how waking up from a dream, a familiar place can look completely alien? Get back. Everyone's gonna.

[Aaron Manke]

And if you see the devil walking around inside of another man, you must cut out the very heart of him, burn his body and scatter the Ashes in the furthest corner of this town.

[Podcast Narrator/Host (Psychology of Your 20s and Havoc Town announcer)]

As a warning from iHeart podcasts and grim and Mild from Aaron Manke. This is Havoc Town, a new fiction podcast set in the Bridgewater audio universe, starring Jewel State and Ray Wise. Listen to Havoc town on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Aaron Manke]

The Devil Walks in Abbostown.

[Anna Ortiz]

I've talked about this on the podcast a few times throughout the many years, but when I was a kid, I was pretty badly bullied. When I was in primary school, I remember once, like, this group of friends that I really liked. Every weekend I would get my parents to call them on like the home phone to have like play dates on the weekends. And they would always be like, oh, sorry. Like the parents would be like, oh, sorry, she's busy. Sorry, they're busy. And then on Monday I would like find out that they were all hanging out because they tell me one time, I remember when I was in high school, I was like to my friends, let's do Secret Santa. And they were all like, that's such a stupid idea. And then on the last day of school, I was riding my bike home through the park next to our school and I saw them. They're all, like, exchanging gifts and they like, saw me and they laughed and they like, ducked down. I stayed friends with those people until I left the state. Why did I do that? Part of it is history. If you've been friends for years, you're reliant on them for at least some sense of who you are or just to not feel alone. Cutting ties feels very difficult. You have woven them into your life. And so to untangle that can feel impossible and very, very scary and very isolating. The fear of being left out, the fear of rocking the boat in the broader group, fear of not having anyone else, like, that's a big factor. Social belonging is a really important human need, and we have been wired to protect it at all costs. But maybe the most significant reason we're drawn back into this time and time again is what that study said earlier. The hope. The up and down relationships, toxic Friendships are never 100% bad. There are flashes of joy and kindness and nostalgia. Every single person has redeeming qualities. Psychologists have a name for this. It's called intermittent reinforcement. When good and bad are mixed kind of unpredictably, the bond becomes even harder to break because you keep chasing the next good moment and you hope that it will be enough to outweigh the bad. We see this play out in gambling in addiction, toxic romance, relationships, the push, the pull, the cycle of chasing the highs. It's not weakness that keeps us stuck, but actually a very human desire to preserve the connection. And this kind of cycle makes it really hard to walk away. Because how do you know when someone's had too many chances? It's a very agonizing question. The truth is I'm not going to be able to give you an answer. There isn't a universal number. Instead, the better question to ask is what have they already done with the chances you have given them? Because the fact that you're considering the question means it's not a one off event. It's likely become a pattern. So when you bring up your feelings, do they listen or do they dismiss you? Do they take responsibility or do they shift blame? Do they make changes or do they repeat it again and again? And if this was a romantic partner, would you tolerate this pattern? Healthy relationships aren't perfect. They're not defined by the absence of conflict, but the ability to repair this conflict. This is known in psychology as rupture and repair theory. A lot of really long lasting relationships have really hard moments. The fact that you band together and fix it and repair it shows love and commitment. If someone shows willingness to repair after a rupture through apologies, changed behavior, consistency, yeah, they may deserve another chance. But if every chance is met with empty apologies, excuses, or if they just go straight back to what they have done before, the question may become not how many chances should I give them, but why am I still offering them? If you find yourself at this point, it's very difficult. Friendships aren't built on contracts or ceremonies like marriages or jobs. They can fade in and out and they can evolve silently. And that can make knowing when to walk away very confusing. So I'm going to outline some steps that you can take to address a toxic friendship, starting with this first one. If you feel physically and emotionally safe, clarity is always the first step. It's very easy to fantasize about just disappearing. But sometimes what feels like toxicity can actually stem just from a lack of awareness. They just don't know how you're feeling. And trust me, ghosting isn't a good solution. I've done that to a friend. I really didn't think I could repair things with for a lot of reasons. And despite that, I really regret it. I regret it actually a lot. At the time it felt right, but I wish that we'd had a chance to maybe, just maybe been able to hash things out. Of course, when we approach Someone with accusations like, you're always so negative or you're such a bad friend, they're going to get defensive, they're going to turn it back on you. But when we frame our concerns around our own feelings, we leave the door open for, again, repair. That might sound like, you know, when you cancel last minute, I feel unimportant. I know you don't mean it that way, but this makes me feel like I don't matter. The focus is on the impact it had on you, not their character. And this shifts the conversation from blame to possibility. Sometimes people just don't realize how their behavior lands. They just don't know. They're used to interacting with people in a different way. And in those cases, like, a simple conversation can actually change the entire dynamic. Let me tell you this. When you are overwhelmed, angry, frustrated, lashing out is the easiest thing you can do. But, oh, my gosh, in the long term, it feels a lot better to handle things maturely. And I'm telling you, like, when you get to a moment where you realize, hey, like, I handled this so much better than I would have before, like, I'm so proud of talking with them about this. You feel great about yourself. Like, you kind of even want to talk to them about it and be like, hey, we handled that so well. Like, look at us growing as people. It's a good moment. Really start there. I implore you to start at that point of clarity. If the behavior doesn't change, that's when boundaries come in. Here's something worth emphasizing. Boundaries are not meant to be punishments. They are actually instructions for how you want to be treated. There is a famous quote that I love that says, boundaries are the distance at which I can love you and still love myself simultaneously. I think that's profound. They're not walls to, like, shut people out. They're actually guidelines that allow you to stay connected if the other person is willing to respect them. A boundary is, I can't keep talking to you if you make me feel judged afterwards or when you make those jokes in front of other people. I need to step back. The boundaries need to be specific. There needs to be cause and effect. You did this. I'm responding this way. They cannot be like, vague demands to, like, you know, try harder with me or be nicer. They need to be specific. I need you to make plans with me. I need you to honor out commitments. I need you to speak positively about me around other people. If the person in question then decides to disregard these boundaries, it is really important to Act. It's the hardest part. And it doesn't mean like a dramatic ultimatum or a fight. It can simply mean reducing how much time you spend together, or choosing not to share vulnerable information, or letting the friendship kind of just move to the background a little bit. A boundary is a contract. If you say a boundary is a non negotiable, but then allowed it to be crossed without consequences, you know, it doesn't really work. It just kind of becomes like a suggestion. So you need to be ready to teach people sometimes how to treat you, which everyone knew. But again, sometimes people just are used to different things. They have a different way of seeing things. They have a different culture, they have a different personality. So make sure that you have a clear boundary that may actually help them treat you better. I would also advise that you lean on other friends for their perspective, specifically ones that you trust. We've talked about how friends can be mirrors to ourselves. Toxic friends can warp that mirror, make it feel like we're being unreasonable or selfish. Talking it through with supportive people gives you that reality check. It allows you to practice possible responses in advance as well. Toxic dynamics often come with gaslighting or deflection. So rehearsing how you'll stay calm can really help. For example, if you know they're going to say like, you're overreacting, practice saying to a friend, I hear you, but this is still important to me. And I think maybe most importantly to note, give yourself permission to step away if you don't want to be there anymore. Friendships are valuable. Not all of them are worth preparing. Sometimes the healthiest thing is simply just to let nature take its course. Just let the person fade out. That might not always be possible. Something I always get asked is like, I have this terrible person that I'm friends with, but, but we are in a friendship group. We have all these friends, all these connections. It's gonna get messy. What do I do? I think in those moments the goal shifts from ending the friendship to managing the dynamic. I'm gonna be honest, it's gonna be awkward. It's gonna be a little bit uncomfortable at times purely because the dynamic has changed. But I promise you, you can handle discomfort. It's okay. But it is really important to avoid trying to recruit the whole group and ask them to take sides. This is like a very natural instinct. Do not force people to see your perspective. They will naturally form their own opinions. Your job isn't to convince them. Don't avoid the situation either. Avoidance can often isolate you more than the toxic person. Ever did. And it can be part of their toolkit. Instead. Going with a game plan, you will stay polite. You will keep things neutral. You will focus your energy on the friends who support you. Because if they are still good friends, they can actually be friends with two people at once. I know this is really hard sometimes because you're like, how do you not see what they've done to me and how awful they were to me? Just trust me. They're gonna figure it out. They will figure it out. I. One of my best friends had this falling out with a mutual friend of ours, and I stayed friends with this other person for a little while because it was kind of uncomfortable for me to walk away. It wasn't my fight. Oh, she didn't say anything. She was great to me about it. She was like, you stay friends with them. And I figured out exactly after a while what had caused their friendship breakup. You know, sooner, soon enough, it always happens. This is advice I gave to my friend, like, literally the other day, who was dealing with, like, a big group dynamic where one person obviously doesn't like her but hasn't said anything. Directly approach those interactions, like, nothing is wrong. If they haven't confronted you. Even though you know they're talking about it behind your back, it's still none of your business. I need you to use every fiber in your body to be kind, to be normal to you. There is no problem. If they want to bring a problem to you, great, but that's their business. You are showing the group, you are showing yourself that you are bigger than the drama. That is the most powerful way that you can manage the situation. Now let's talk about the friendship breakup. Feel like we've kind of been snaking our way to this moment where the explosion happens. We know that friendship breakups do not get the same attention as romantic breakups, and yet we know they can be just as hard. It's important that you allow yourself to be sad about this. You're allowed to grieve this person and what the future you really thought you had with them. It's so romantic, because friendship is romantic. At times, you do imagine a future, but I think it's really refreshing just to see what space that opens up for you. Toxic friendships take up a lot of energy. They take up a lot of time and space in our mind, so when they fade, that space is suddenly yours again. Use it. Text that old friend that you've lost touch with. Join a book club. Join a running group. Do a trivia night. Do a pottery Class, dive back into your hobbies and the things that make you feel like you again. Honestly, it's like a breakup after a breakup, you've got to kind of curate your social life all over again. And that means you get to choose what feels good, what energizes you, what you want more of. Losing a friendship knocks your confidence so hard. It's so conflicting. You know, it's for the best. You feel like a bad person implicitly. Sometimes you have regrets. So just investing all of that energy back into yourself can really help. It's also so empowering to celebrate the upgrade. And I don't want to come across as cold or dismissive or insensitive, but they're kind of losing the better person here. They're losing you. You know, they're losing the person that gave them a bunch of chances, that talked them through their behavior, that celebrated them, that loved them. For whatever reason. The friendship didn't work out. You guys didn't gel. So that doesn't mean that you didn't try your hardest and that you're not still a catch. You're not losing in this situation. You cannot be friends with every single person you've ever met for the rest of your life. That is actually a gain. It's a gain when you realize that someone can't keep up with your emotional bandwidth, can't keep up with you, doesn't care about you the way you care about them. As someone who had so many experiences when they were a teenager, when they were younger, when they were in university where they would try very, very hard, I would always try so hard to be the friend that everyone wanted to be friends with. And I would put so much into that, my friendships. And I would love them so much and do the exciting things for their birthdays and shout dinners and, you know, be at their runs and celebrate them. Some people just don't appreciate that. And the thing is, is that I waited a long time and now I have the people that do. So I can tell you that they're out there. I was talking to, like, a family member of mine who's a bit. A lot younger than me, who was, like, going through a really hard time at school. And I just was like, I totally get where you're coming from. I spent, like, the first two decades of my life without any real friends with, like, one real friend. And then suddenly, like, I entered my mid-20s and everyone, like, came out of the woodwork. Everyone was like, I suddenly just met these amazing people. And the same way I didn't settle in a romantic relationship. I didn't settle when it came to my friendships either. And now I just feel like I have been rewarded for for my suffering and for my times when I I didn't get what I wanted in terms of friendship. And I truly believe that that happens for people and that holding out for good friends is just again like holding out for good relationships. So I'm wishing you the best of luck. I hope this episode has brought you some clarity when it comes to these relationships. I hope it has given you a sense that stepping away it's not necessarily a bad thing is not and does not make you a bad person. And that yeah, these people exist and they suck and it's okay to like not want to be friends with them anymore. So I hope this episode helped. I hope you learned something from it. I want to thank our wonderful, wonderful researcher Libby Colbert for her contributions to this episode. If you have made it this far, I want you to leave a little comment down below showing some love for a non toxic friend in your life. Let's show people that they still exist. I want to shout out my friend Aaron. Aaron is like the other member of this podcast. I feel like if you've been around for a while you will have heard her name quite a few times. She's been on the podcast like twice. I had such a great weekend with Aaron last weekend when I went and surprised her. So I just want to give a shout out to her. You know, we didn't become friends till I was like 22 and I've never felt so much love from another person who I was not like either a family member of or dating. So those friends do exist and I want to give her a shout out. And hopefully you can give a shout out to someone like that in the comments below if you feel called to do so. Make sure that you are following along or subscribed wherever you are listening, whether that is on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, the iHeartRadio app. Make sure to leave a five star review if you feel called to do so and follow us on Instagram at thatpsychology Podcast Someone was asking me the other day why it's not the psychology of your 20s. I'm fairly sure either that name was taken or it was just too long. So there you go, there's your answer. That psychology podcast it is. But until next time, stay safe, be kind, be gentle to yourself in the face of maybe a toxic friendship. I believe in you and we will talk very, very soon.

[Stephanie Beatriz]

I'm Stephanie Beatriz, actor and Walmart member with Walmart. I save 10 cents per gallon at over 13,000 gas stations. Exxon Mobil, Walmart and Murphy stations. But you know who doesn't?

[Anna Ortiz]

Prime members.

[Stephanie Beatriz]

They save at way less stations.

[Anna Ortiz]

Awkward.

[Stephanie Beatriz]

And yet their membership costs more than Walmart plus double awkward. Walmart plus members save 10 cents per gallon at over 13,000 locations. Who knew? Walmart plus switch and save today $139 prime annual fee versus $98 Walmart plus annual fee. Gas at participating stations. 5 cents in Alaska and Oklahoma.

[Ed Helms]

Hey, it's Ed Helms, host of Snafu, my podcast about history's greatest screw ups. On our new season, we're bringing you a new snafu. Every single episode.

[Anna Ortiz]

32 lost nuclear weapons. You're like, wait, stop. What?

[Ed Helms]

Yeah, it's gonna be a whole lot of history, a whole lot of funny, and a whole lot of fabulous guests. Paul Scheer, Angela and Jenna. Nick Kroll, Jordan Klepper. Listen to season four of SNAFU with Ed Helms on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Aaron Manke]

There's a vile sickness in Abbas town. You must excise it. Dig into the deep earth and cut it out.

[Podcast Narrator/Host (Psychology of Your 20s and Havoc Town announcer)]

From iheart podcasts and Grim and mild from Aaron Manke. This is Havoc Town, a new fiction podcast set in the Bridgewater audio universe, starring Jewel State and Ray Wise. Listen to Havoc town on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Anna Ortiz]

It's Anna Ortiz and I'm Markin Delicato. You might know us as Hilda and.

[Podcast Narrator/Host (Psychology of Your 20s and Havoc Town announcer)]

Justin from Ugly Betty.

[Anna Ortiz]

Welcome to our new podcast, Viva Betty. We're re watching the series from start to finish and getting into all the fashions, the drama and the behind the scenes moments that you've never heard before.

[Podcast Narrator/Host (Psychology of Your 20s and Havoc Town announcer)]

But you were still bartending.

[Anna Ortiz]

I didn't know that. The bar back is like, is that you and I turn around and it's a commercial for Betty. And I was like, I gotta go. I quit.

[Podcast Narrator/Host (Psychology of Your 20s and Havoc Town announcer)]

Listen to Viva Betty on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Anna Ortiz]

This is an I heart podcast.