← The Psychology of your 20s
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- [00:00]
Host of The Psychology of Your 20s
This is an iHeart podcast.
- [00:04]
Stephanie Beatriz
I'm Stephanie Beatriz, actor and Walmart member. Today I'm faced with a very tough decision. Which video streaming service do I want? Walmart gives members a choice between Paramount plus or Peacock, which is like asking, would you rather have cookies or brownies? Super strength or invisibility? Feet for hands or hands for feet? I'm gonna have to think about this. Walmart members choose their video streaming service at no extra cost. Who knew? Choose one ad supported service every 90 days. Peacock Premium or Param. Additional registration required. Terms and conditions apply.
- [00:34]
Johnny Knoxville
Johnny Knoxville here. Check out Crimeless Hillbilly Heist, my new true crime podcast from Smartless Media, Campside Media and big money players. It's the true story of the almost perfect crime and the nimrods who almost pulled it off. It was kind of like the perfect.
- [00:50]
Narrator/Voice Actor for Kill Switch
Storm in a sewer.
- [00:51]
Narrator/Voice Actor for Havoc Town
That was dumb.
- [00:53]
Host of The Psychology of Your 20s
Do not follow my example.
- [00:56]
Johnny Knoxville
Listen to Crimeless Hillbilly Heist on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast.
- [01:07]
Narrator/Voice Actor for Havoc Town
There's a vile sickness in Amstown. You must excise it. Dig into the deep earth and cut it out.
- [01:17]
Narrator for Havoc Town Promo
From iheart Podcasts and Grim and Mild from Aaron Manke. This is Havoc Town, a new fiction podcast set in the Bridgewater audio universe, starring Jewel State and Ray Wise. Listen to Havoc town on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [01:35]
Dexter Thomas
Are there any pictures of you online? Then you could already be in a massive police database without even knowing it.
- [01:40]
Narrator/Voice Actor for Kill Switch
Clearview scrapes together images from Facebook, from LinkedIn, from Venmo accounts.
- [01:46]
Dexter Thomas
I'm Dexter Thomas, host of Kill Switch, a podcast about how living in the future is affecting us right now.
- [01:52]
Narrator/Voice Actor for Kill Switch
Police, they are trusting the software with this magical ability to lead them to the right suspect.
- [01:57]
Dexter Thomas
In this episode, we dive into how cops are using AI and facial recognition and sometimes getting it wrong and putting innocent people behind bars.
- [02:05]
Narrator/Voice Actor for Kill Switch
So if your accuser is this algorithm, but you're not even being told that it was used, let alone given any of the details about how it works.
- [02:14]
Dexter Thomas
Listen to Kill Switch on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [02:25]
Host of The Psychology of Your 20s
Hello, everybody, and welcome back to the psychology of your 20s, the podcast where we talk through some of the big life changes and transitions of our 20s and what they mean for our psychology. Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to the podcast. New listeners, old listeners, wherever you are in the world, it is so great to have you here. Back for another episode as we of Course break down the psychology of our 20s. I am so very excited for today's episode because it's a little bit different from our usual content. It kind of marries, I would say, my two podcasts together in a way. If you guys didn't know. I have another podcast called Mantra, which I describe as like the spiritual little sister of the psychology of your 20s. We go in depth into a lot of the stuff we talk about here, but from a more philosophical perspective. And, you know, it may be a little bit woo woo for some, but I really like having that added depth and like the nuances of those conversations to kind of give things a new angle. And today we're kind of diving more into that realm and taking a more kind of astrological, spiritual take on our 20s. But of course, still with like a scientific lens to it. We are talking about an idea that if you are in your late 20s, maybe on the brink of 30, you have heard about before. It is the idea of Saturn's return. So this concept of Saturn returns, firstly, so many of you have asked me for this question, but secondly, it's really having a moment. It comes up so much in pop culture, especially in songs, you know, Scissors Song, Satin, Saturn. I think it's just called Saturn. Casey Musgrove's song Deeper. Well, I know Ariana Grande has a song about it on her new album. And in each of these songs, you know, these artists talk about this pivotal moment that they've each uniquely experienced in which at 27, 28, 29, their lives just suddenly shocked them and kind of just completely did 180. It's actually a rather common experience for people at this age to just go through a magnificent, completely unpredictable life shift. And if you believe the theory, it is something that actually all of us must go through. All of us are going to have some form of this experience. The idea of Saturn returns comes from astrology. It basically represents a astrological event whereby Saturn, the planet, returns to its same position as when you were born, right as you exit your 20s and enter your 30s. And that's what brings, according to this theory, so many unique shifts, breakups, loss, new career pathways, major identity shifts. All these things are what we can expect from this period. But there is, of course, as always, a psychological explanation to the inevitability of these events that we also need to discuss. So today I'm going to offer this psychological breakdown and psychological perspective on the return of Saturn. On this exciting chapter, what you can expect, why everything suddenly changes. The developmental explanation, the scientific one and most Importantly for those of you going through it right now, how to make the most out of this period, how to get through this. We're also going to talk about the history of the concept. We're going to talk about Roman and Greek mythology. I know so many fun things and stories of people who have made it out on the other side, plus so much more. So even if you don't think that astrology is for you, believe me, I am also very skeptical. I do think that you'll be surprised by how much of this might just apply to your life and what you might learn. So without further ado, let's dive into the psychology of Saturn's return. Okay, so let's get the simple stuff out of the way. What is a Saturn return? I've kind of already given a very light explanation, but Saturn return is basically when the planet Saturn circles back to the same position in the sky that it occupied the moment that you were born. Now, because Saturn roughly takes about 27 to 30 years to complete an orbit around the sun, your Saturn return tends to land at around 27 to 30. Some people say earlier can happen at 26, it can happen up to 31, depending on when you were born. And it doesn't just happen in one moment. It's not just like a second. It is a season. It is a season that sometimes stretches two to three years. It is a process of buildup and fallout that kind of decimates our lives in a way. But sometimes for the best, Saturn return, you don't actually just have one, you, some people could have three. Most people have about two. Around the age of 58 to 60, you experience another one again. And then around the age of 80 to 90, if you're lucky enough, is when you'll experience perhaps your final one. Each return is said to mark a new kind of stage in life. The first one is the shift into true adulthood. The second is the shift into elder wisdom. And the third is the shift into legacy. And a lot will change during these periods. So we know the pop culture references to Saturn returns, but historically, references to this cycle go way back to ancient Roman and Greek astrology, where Saturn or Cronus in Greece wasn't just a planet, it was a God that represented discipline, restriction, boundaries, and time itself. The God Saturn also represented agriculture, wealth, the seasons, partying. So he had a lot of hats. He had a lot of hats. But astrologically, the planet of Saturn is considered kind of a task master planet. So a task master planet. I didn't know this before researching this Episode basically signifies karmic lessons. It's a planet that's responsible or influences how we face our limits, how we face reality, how we face the things that we perhaps avoided. And so in astrology speak, Saturn Return. All of this comes to this point whereby you confront the structures that you've built in your 20s and you are tested on them and you have to determine whether they are truly yours or they are borrowed from other people's expectations. And this is why our life feels like it kind of falls apart. Even if it's not noticeable, things are going to change for you. It is a coming of age and it's actually an opportunity to put a positive spin on it, to create a life that really aligns with your deeper purpose and your deeper goals. So the modern popularization of Saturn and Saturn Returns really started in the 20th century, particularly with the boom of astrology in the 1960s and 70s when psychics, tarot cards, fortune tellers, like that industry exploded. It's definitely had a renaissance though, in the past decade, obviously due to pop culture, but also due to social media, where people have started to name this experience using this label. And it's really validated for a lot of people the chaos that they have come to experience or are experiencing in their late 20s. Maybe Saturn returns is just a metaphor for the things that we are enduring. Let's zoom out a little bit. Why are we so drawn to this explanation? Why do we like explanations like this in general of astrology, of numerology, of cycles, of fate, or the idea that life comes in seasons? Because that's what this really is. First off, the reason that we like the idea of a Saturn Returns or anything of the sort, is that we are meaning making creatures. When things are uncertain, like early adulthood, like our 20s, having a framework can really soothe us. Frameworks, however arbitrary, they do actually provide a psychological feeling of safety and a narrative by which we can live. We like patterns because they give us a sense of control. Even if life feels terrible and scary, you can feel like, okay, well maybe this is supposed to happen right now because of this explanation that someone is giving me. And that is why our belief in these systems actually does tend to increase in our 20s, when we are desperate in many ways for structured external systems and explanations for why life is, is like hitting all of these ups and downs. There is literally a whole field of psychology dedicated to this idea of meaning making, and it's called narrative psychology. This field basically says that humans identities and our understanding of the world and the world around us, like it is constructed through stories and the stories we tell ourselves. How you experience a breakup will be determined by the story of your relationship. How you relate to your siblings is determined by the story of your childhood. How you approach risk is determined by stories or folk stories of what this really means and what we need to go through and what the stars are telling us or what the universe is telling us. In this way, astrology is a symbolic storytelling system which provides us with a really meaningful narrative for life, whether it is real or not. Like, I'm not going to make any statements either way. It doesn't actually matter. It doesn't matter if it's real. It's the comfort that it provides us. And anything that you know is real that comes from that or that comes from the stars is kind of just a bonus in my mind. So let's talk about what actually tends to happen in this Saturn return season. Because the astrological explanation is one thing, but there is also a very solid psychological side to all of this. And, and that's where this idea of emerging adulthood becomes important to understand. Jeffrey Arnott, he is a developmental psychologist. He coined the term emerging adulthood to basically describe the period between 18 and 29. That is for a lot of people, an in between stage where you are not a teenager anymore, but you may not be fully settled into what most people think of as, as adulthood either. Now at this stage, a few things start to happen to us because of changing expectations, because of how our brain is developing, because of, you know, external things mainly, we start to feel like we need to get more serious about this adult thing. But also we still have a lot of unanswered questions and things that we need to learn. And those two truths, the need to know and the not knowing, start to clash against each other. Let's start with the impact of this confusion on our relationships. For a lot of people, relationships are at the front and center of this period. In their twenties, romantic ones especially, you will see this happening. And I have seen this happening quite regularly. You know, you might have been with someone since you were 22, and by 28, you know, you're realizing that a person, this person isn't quite the same match to you as you were when you first started dating. This is why breakups around this age are so common. You're kind of at this turning point. Either we commit and we make this for the rest of our lives, or we have this opportunity to really have our last moment of being single in our twenties or find someone new and it feels like this is the point where we have to decide. I can think of literally four people off the top of my head who I know who have broken up with their partner of four plus years right before they turned 30 in the past year alone. It is a huge phenomena. Psychologists even track this theory and can track this pattern of relationship dissolution in the late 20s. And they suggest that many long term relationships either end or transition into marriage during this period. And it's actually quite a normal turning point for people. It's one of the most common times and time periods when people are likely to split up and to go their own way. So if you have been through a really seismic, terrible life shattering breakup at the end of your twenties or during your Saturn return, it's actually not that uncommon and it's actually probably a good thing that you have made this decision at this moment. Another really famous theory comes from Erik Erickson. We talk about him a lot. He's a German American psychoanalyst and he says that the reason this happens is because we are moving through what we call an intimacy versus isolation stage of development at this point in time. So as we enter our late 20s, we do start to develop a much more secure sense of self and identity. It's something that we all look forward to. You know, the older we get, we know ourselves more. This newfound self awareness that is what begins to expose fundamental incompatibilities that were maybe tolerated or overlooked when you were younger. You may have built your identity around this partner or this person or may have been something together. But as you have found yourself more as you have created your own independent identity just by aging, you realize like this person isn't for me. You need space. You may ultimately need to break up as, as well, you know, the expectation to get married or settled down becomes louder. I think you also start to have to answer some very existential questions like do I want to be loved this way for the rest of my life? If this is all that love will ever be, is this enough? And by golly gosh, like you need to answer that question now. And I know it's creates such a sense of impending doom and such a sense of like literal terror, but it's required of you so that you don't end up in these situations. We see all the time of people in loveless marriages or with people they really knew they weren't meant to be with years and years down the line wishing that at 28 they just cut their losses to sound completely callous. It's not just romantic relationships. Friendships shift in big ways during this time as well. Remember how in your teens and even early 20s, friendships were like they were inbuilt, right? You didn't really have to try. It was definitely from a place of convenience. School roommates, shared experiences, shared hobbies. You could always find someone there. As we get older, as we move, as we take up jobs, as we couple up, as we have kids, friendships suddenly require a real intentional maintenance. And a lot of people will hit the mid 20s, late 20s mark. Having had people fall off kind of in trickles for a while and look around and be like, oh, there's no one left. I'm deeply lonely. I had this moment myself recently. Like, I feel like I talk about loneliness a lot on the podcast and it's been like an ongoing, you know, battle with me. But I just had this moment where a lot of my friends have moved overseas, like three of my best friends have moved overseas in the last six months. And I was like, wow, my, my friendship circle and my network is a lot thinner than it used to. And there's a lot of panic in that. There's a lot of panic in being like, do I want it to remain this way or do I want to do something, try things to change that again. The research consistently backs this up. For example, in a meta analysis of over 270 studies, researchers found that in on average, social networks decrease in size as people age. The steepest decline occurs at this point right now in young adulthood, in our late 20s, early 30s. There's a lot of circumstantial reasons for this, but basically, if we think about it, our lives generally get busier and typically like, the effort that we feel we can reasonably put into our friendships becomes a lot smaller. And it's why you have less friends. It's why you might find yourself being very lonely. Now, it doesn't mean that that's like gonna happen and be the way for the rest of your life. I think it is. Again, the wake up call. Do I want to live like this for the next 50 years? Okay, we're gonna take a short break here, but when we come back, we're gonna talk family, we're gonna talk Korea, we're gonna talk identity, and also how to overcome the tumultuous period of your Saturn return. Stay with us.
- [19:57]
Stephanie Beatriz
I'm Stephanie Beatriz, actor and Walmart member. I get the same big benefits as prime for a whole lot less. Like free same day delivery, gas savings, plus a video streaming choice included, all for only 98 bucks a year. So if you like money. Specifically your money. And saving it. You might want to switch to the membership that costs less. Walmart plus who knew? Switch and save today. $139 prime annual fee versus $98 Walmart plus annual fee $35 minimum delivery with Walmart Plus $25 minimum delivery with Prime. One streaming service with ads every 90 days. Additional registration required. Terms and conditions apply.
- [20:28]
Ed Helms
Hey, it's Ed Helms. And welcome back to Snafu, my podcast about history's greatest screw ups. On our new season, we're bringing you a new snafu every single episode.
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Nick Kroll
32 lost nuclear weapons. You're like, wait, stop.
- [20:42]
Host of The Psychology of Your 20s
What?
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Dexter Thomas
Ernie Shackleton sounds like a solid 70s.
- [20:46]
Ed Helms
Basketball player who still wore knee pads.
- [20:49]
Narrator/Voice Actor for Kill Switch
Yes.
- [20:49]
Ed Helms
It's going to be a whole lot of history, a whole lot of funny, and a whole lot of guests. The great Paul Scheer made me feel good.
- [20:57]
Host of The Psychology of Your 20s
I'm like, oh, wow.
- [20:58]
Ed Helms
Angela and Jenna, I am so psyched you're here.
- [21:02]
Nick Kroll
What was that like for you to soft launch into the show?
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Ed Helms
Sorry, Jenna, I'll be asking the question questions today.
- [21:10]
Nick Kroll
I forgot whose podcast we were doing.
- [21:12]
Ed Helms
Nick Kroll. I hope this story is good enough to get you to toss that sandwich. So let's, let's, let's see how it goes. Listen to season four of SNAFU with Ed Helms on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [21:30]
Narrator/Voice Actor for Havoc Town
There's a vile sickness in Abba's town. You must excise it, dig into the deep earth and cut it out. The village is ravaged. Entire families have been consumed.
- [21:44]
Host of The Psychology of Your 20s
You know how waking up from a dream, a familiar place can look completely alien. Get back.
- [21:51]
Narrator/Voice Actor for Havoc Town
Everyone's go dance. And if you see the devil walking around inside of another man, you must cut out the very heart of him, burn his body, and scatter the ashes in the furthest corner of this town.
- [22:04]
Narrator for Havoc Town Promo
As a warning from iHeart podcasts and grim and mild from Aaron Manke, this is Havoc Town, a new fiction podcast set in the Bridgewater audio universe, starring Jewel State and Ray Wise. Listen to Havoc town on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [22:25]
Narrator/Voice Actor for Havoc Town
The Devil Walks in Abbostown.
- [22:29]
Dexter Thomas
Are there any pictures of you online? I'm not just talking about Google. I'm talking anywhere.
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Narrator/Voice Actor for Kill Switch
Clearview scrapes together images from Facebook, from LinkedIn, from Venmo accounts.
- [22:39]
Dexter Thomas
That database is now being used by police departments all across the country to match criminal suspect photos. And sometimes it makes mistakes.
- [22:47]
Narrator/Voice Actor for Kill Switch
So in this one case, two of the search results that I think were in the top 10 of the search results were Michael Jordan. Picture of Michael Jordan.
- [22:54]
Dexter Thomas
But cops are still using it to make arrests.
- [22:57]
Narrator/Voice Actor for Kill Switch
Police, they are trusting this software to lead them to the right suspect. But you're not even being told that it was used, let alone given any of the details about how it works.
- [23:07]
Dexter Thomas
This is not Minority Report. This is happening right now. People are getting arrested and doing actual time in jail after being picked out by a computer. I'm Dexter Thomas, host of killswitch, where every Wednesday we explain the right now of living in the future. You can turn off the computer, but do not let the computer turn you off. Listen to Kill switch in the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [23:30]
Host of The Psychology of Your 20s
So we've talked about the changes that Saturn Return brings up for our relationships and for our friendships and then there's our family and how shifting dynamics during this period of our life can really explode out into this very unique kind of relationship. I think this one can kind of sneak up on you in your early 20s. I think family is like background noise. Like you're kind of out in the world. You're like living your own life. Maybe you're like calling home once in a while, like you visit on the holidays. It's a very common thing that around your late 20s, often, like the role of your family comes rushing back to the front row and we kind of turn around, do this orbit and rely on them suddenly almost as much as we did when we were children for a lot of things, especially emotionally for many of us, this is also when the reality of like aging parents starts to land. Like you do start to notice little things like your dad's memory is slipping or your mom gets tired more easily or, you know, you have this moment where you celebrate, you celebrate like a huge milestone birthday for your grandparents and are like, huh, I don't think they have many years left. It's also when a lot of people experience real serious loss, some people experience it earlier, which is heartbreaking. But I think this is when a lot of people start to lose parents or they start to really see serious declines in their well being that forces you to reckon not just with like the fragility of life and of their lives, but like, yeah, the fragility of existence and how serious it is to take things seriously and to like, really go after what you want when time is finite. That's a lot of, again, big existential questions. All of it is coming back to this, this questioning that is like, in the back of our mind, for some of us as well, this is, like, the first time where you get a real taste of, like, caregiving. Maybe you start helping with bills, with doctor's appointments. Maybe you become, like, a steady emotional support. And this role reversal can feel disorientating. Right. There's actually a phrase called filalial maturity. Is it filal? Filal. I don't know how to pronounce it. You know, when you only ever see a word written down, someone's going to correct me in the comments. I'm going to go with filial. Filial maturity. And it basically describes this exact stage when, like, the adult child becomes the parent to their parent, and they start to really see their caregivers as whole people. You know, you no longer have that, like, fantasy of them being invincible. Like, they have limits, they have flaws. They need you to take care of them. It's really, really bittersweet and very difficult because you have to kind of acknowledge that there's this new role you're entering as this adult who may have to do this alone at some stage and who has to come to terms with the fact that time is passing and this person might not always be there. But family work isn't just about your immediate family and your parents. It's also, like, when we start to question, like, do I want my own family? Do I want kids? You know, this is the first time where you can really zone out. And I know a lot of people, like, have children younger, but especially in this generation, I feel like we spend a lot of our early 20s being, like, freedom, yay. Like, I'm gonna be exploratory, and I'm gonna just try things out, and, like, I'm gonna try not take this all as seriously as maybe I want to or I should, and I'm gonna have fun. And then it's like, you get to 27, and you're like, I need to start answering some big questions and whether I want kids, whether I'm capable of being a parent, whether I've dealt with my family enough to be good in this role again. It's like landing straight in your lap along with, like, a million other things all happening at the same time. This is why, like, Satin return is often referred to as, like, a cumulative process. Right? It's not just the breakup. It's not just the friendship, you know, dissolution. It's not just the big questions about, what do I want from my future. It's then family. It's then questions about your identity. And of course, also career. We cannot talk about Saturn return and what it will do to us if we do not talk about the shifts that we will experience in our professional identity and at work. This one is huge. Again, early 20s experimentation, first jobs, internships, trying things out. It's not that serious. It might be serious. It's not necessarily permanent. Then it's like the clock has been counting down and you're like, oh my God, suddenly I have to make a decision. The trial period is over. Am I going to commit to this life or am I going to choose something else? Is this what I want to do? Is this really? It's. Some people pivot completely and I have seen friends do this and it's been marvelous to watch. They go back to school, they start businesses, they chase creative projects. Others just get more serious and they start to double down and think about climbing the corporate ladder. But almost everyone will feel this at this moment in their career of confronting feelings, of feeling stuck, of needing more meaning, of panicking about their future. There's actually a study from the Journal of Vocational Behavior that followed people in their late 20s, around 28 to 30, and found that those who felt most dissatisfied at work weren't necessarily in bad jobs. A lot of them were making good money, but it was that these jobs didn't line up with what they were recognizing that they personally valued. In other words, you know, they cared about creativity, but they were only doing a job that cared about efficiency. They craved purpose, but, you know, their job only offered a good paycheck and nothing else. The mismatch is where the discomfort is coming from. And it does tend to come to a head right around this age when we are finally comparing the life we thought we'd have with the one that we're actually living. Part of that dissatisfaction also links to just, like plain old geography. Environment plays a really big role in the Saturn return stage. There's this, like, joke that me and my friends have that everyone In Australia turns 27 and moves to London because, oh my God, like, it just seems like such a common pattern. I'm doing it. Like, I can't even. Like, I am the butt of my own joke. Like, I'm moving to London. I felt like there's this big call in you at this stage to just be like, let me see what else is out there before I click buy now on the life that I currently have. The late 20s are like a hot spot for moving both physically and psychologically. And we're also going to see our personality shift as well, people often quote this idea that, like, the brain fully matures at 25. That's actually not correct. Part of the reason why you might be experiencing a lot of, like, tumultuousness is because, you know, you expect to feel like you have locked into this more mature, smarter thinking system, but actually you are going to experience another rapid burst of pruning and changes in your brain that will influence your personality in your late 20s. In our late 20s, a lot of us become slightly more conscientious. We tend to become more responsible, more reliable, simply because we are adapting to the increasing roles that we are facing in our lives. But along with that comes a heavier awareness of the limits of this change. You can't do anything. You can't be everything. And that's where this, like, creeping feeling of, like, premature failure can show up. This nagging feeling of, like, I should have had it all figured out. And how we respond to that can actually be quite irrational. So everyone's saying, like, you get more mature, you're able to make more mature decisions and be more straightforward with your life. And then there is this final burst, often in our late 20s, where we might call it an extinction burst, we might call it rallying, where right before we feel like we've locked into, like, our new and mature brain, right before, like, we feel like we're going to retire this part of our life, we revisit. Revisit it one more time, and we go out with a bang. Dan McAdams, he is this researcher who studies narrative identity. He has written about how, around 29, many people have what he calls a redemptive turning point. It's that moment when the story you've been telling yourself for most of your 20s, like, you just are like, don't want it anymore. Or you're like, if I'm going to finish this story, I'm going to go off on a major tangent before I do. A lot of people have this moment where they're like, their personality almost regresses or returns to an earlier stage before it, like, comes back for, like, its final moment. And it's not to say that, like, once you turn 30, like, you're locked down. This is who you're going to be for the rest of your life. No, your brain continues to develop. Your personality actually does continue to change for the rest of your life. But this is just one of those moments where, like, you, we really see, like, a spike or, like, a differentiation in activity. So if Saturn return, your Saturn return feels like everything is changing. It's good to know that this is actually just a part of human development. I think it's very soothing to see it as something that see it as a process that you have to go through. If all of this is sounding suspiciously like a quarter life crisis or rock bottom, you are not wrong. The astrological definition is one thing. This does have another name. Whether we call it Saturn Return, whether we call it a quarter life crisis, these are actually incredibly similar. And people have done studies where they have compared self reporting and anecdotal reporting on these experiences side by side. They're kind of explaining like the same thing. And applying a quarter life crisis perspective on our Saturn Returns I think gives us and gives like allows us to have a more psychological take on it. This isn't just a pop psychology term. Again, this is a very real transition that if you got 10, 20 somethings in a room, you could literally map it. You could map it time and time again where these changes start to happen. Why? Tension in love, tension in careers, tension in family is going to push us to change who we are. Okay, what do we do about it? I feel like I've gone on long enough about like the things that you are going to experience or have experienced and perhaps why. And if you're feeling totally like lost and like life is beyond repair, what is the first step that you have to take to at least just feel a little bit less uncomfortable in this period? What can we do to help ourselves? Well, I'm going to give you some suggestions from not really my own experience, but from, yeah, my own experience with like rock bottom moments and hard moments, but also from people who have lived to tell the tale. This is a pilgrimage, right? This is an identity pilgrimage that millions, no, billions of people have gone through before you. So as isolating as it feels right now, research does show that people who actively wrestle with their identity development and with uncertainty in their twenties and who confront it head on, they actually emerge with stronger self knowledge. They emerge with greater resilience in their 30s compared to people who try and ignore it or push through in a life that they don't actually like. So not to sound like a toxic positivity guru, but going through this now and as intensely as you are is ultimately a good thing and is saving you from investing further in this life and then feeling like you're even more responsible for it and you'd have to sacrifice so much more to leave. Don't shoot me for saying that. I know that if you're going through it right now like secretly that's not something that you want to hear, but the application and finding meaning in it all actually is really helpful for the process. If we think back to that narrative identity research again, we will find that the story we tell ourselves about who we are and what we're going through and why our challenges are important actually makes a huge difference to how we approach them. And a lot of this does come down to reframing. It's easy to see endings. The ending of a relationship, a job, a friendship, a city that you lived in as a failure. But during this period, endings are often just realignments or maybe even protection. Whether you want to call it the planets, God, the universe, your brain, you need to give this period in your life a label. And you need to acknowledge why it may be necessary in order to have that meaning that makes it feel like you couldn't have it any other way. You have, like, you can't see it as defeat. Anytime that you like, have a negative connotation or a negative thought about this that feels unbearable and life changing, you're allowed to feel crap day to day. But anytime you have a thought that's like, this is never going to get better, this is completely useless. My whole life is burning down for nothing again. The meaning making can frame the upheaval as part of your story. It's the chapter where you figure out who you are. It's the chapter where you figure out what matters to you, what life you actually want. That in itself will make all of this feel a lot more terrifying and more purposeful. I also want you to make a promise to yourself. I am going to work through this. I. I'm going to give up some control. For the first time in my life. I'm going to let myself float through these changes and let life take me where it wants me to go. I'm not going to fight it. This is the promise I want you to make. I'm not going to fight it. I'm going to actually allow myself to be surprised. It's a very stoic idea, but you might not be able to make this chapter easier. You can just allow yourself to struggle a little bit less. Also ask people about their own period of this in their lives. Ask your parents, ask your older friends, hear their stories. Everyone who I have asked has been like, I wouldn't be who I am today without what I went through during my Saturn return or during this period of the end of my 20s. I would go through it again in a heartbeat. It has made me who I am. It's like people exchanging war stories. Like, it's scary. It's also strangely comforting for people involved. Right there is this great article from the cut titled 7 Saturn Return Survival Stories. I think it's behind a paywall. You should still get the free subscription or like the free seven day trial and read it because it is these stories from these incredible women who are on the other side. They're in their mid-30s, early-40s, who now have the hindsight to reflect and give us the wisdom on this period that you may really require. Some other advice that I have gotten is to just choose one thing to ground you and stay loyal to during this period. So when everything else is, is changing, find something that's stable. Start training for a half marathon. Start a reading challenge. Commit to journaling every night. Go sober. Adopt a cat, foster a dog. Focus on being a good family member, a good volunteer, a good community member. Start a new project. Just choose something that is within your control to mentor you. Kind of like an anchor. That is gonna be something that you can come back to, this touch point that you can always have agency around that's gonna bring you a little bit of peace. Also write, record yourself, Make a private video diary. Capture this moment for yourself in the future to really take in all the lessons that you are learning right now. I did this when I went through my first adult big girl breakup. I still have the videos. I, I. It's painful to watch, but I suggest it to anyone and everyone who was going through something really hard. I recorded myself every single time I felt down about the relationship or I felt like crying, or I was crying. And I kept doing that until I didn't want to, until I didn't need to anymore. And documenting that pain and these changes, it makes it feel like it's important and it means something. You don't share it with anyone. Like, I've never shared that video. Well, I think there's like 50 videos, to be honest. Like, I've never shared those. It's kind of just for me. And when I go back and I watch it like the final video is, was me, I think. I can't remember whether it was like a year or two years later, but it was a really heartwarming. It was just this video of me being like, it's gonna be okay, and it was okay and kind of laughing in a nice way. I like my, this previous version of me who was so deep in despair, like she did not see it getting any better. And here I was like telling her that it, that it did And I think that having that, that for yourself is truly powerful. And having the vision of a future you, being able to look back in hindsight and celebrate this period is a lot of comfort in itself. I'm sending you guys a lot of love. I think you just need to have patience. You just need to have patience that this is part of the long, messy work of being human and of being in your 20s and your 20s. You know, they just want to go out with a bang. Like they've taught you so much. They continue to teach you so much. They want to like get all the lessons in before you enter this new chapter. So leave space for that. Leave space to just like learn and process and grieve and share, share, share what you are going through with other people. Sometimes like the best remedy is someone else just being like, yeah, me too. And not feeling alone. So again, good luck. I'm actually deeply excited for you. Obviously I'm not going through it with you. So like, I'm sure if I was in your shoes, I would not want to hear someone saying that. So I'm sorry, but I am deeply excited for you. I just think so much amazing stuff is going to come out of this that you don't even know yet. How cool is that? If you enjoyed this episode, make sure to leave a comment down below. Tell me when your Saturn return began. Was it a little bit earlier? Are you still going through it? What are you learning during this period? Let's share some of those stories below so that hopefully people can scroll through them and be like, oh my God, I feel so much less alone. I want to thank our research assistant Libby Colbert, as always for her help on this episode. She has taught me so much about astrology as we kind of put together. Yeah, this, this topic. So I appreciate her so much for all of her assistance. Make sure that you are following us over on Instagram at that psychology podcast to see behind the scenes. We also have December guest month coming up at the end of the year. So if you want to see who is going to be on the show, who you're going to hear from, well, you better follow along. Our transcripts are as well now available on Substack and this episode is actually on YouTube. You've kind of already finished it if you're listening to this. So you might not want to go and re watch it. But if you want to watch future episodes of the show, you should follow us over there. The psychology of your 20s on YouTube. But until next time, stay safe, be kind, be gentle to yourself. Good luck with your Saturn return and we will talk very, very soon. Foreign.
- [44:34]
Stephanie Beatriz
I'm Stephanie Beatriz, actor and Walmart member. Today I'm faced with a very tough decision. Which video streaming service do I want? Walmart gives members a choice between Paramount plus or Peacock, which is like asking would you rather have cookies or brownies? Super strength or invisibility? Feet for hands or hands for feet? I'm gonna have to think about this. Walmart plus members choose their video streaming service at no extra cost. Who knew? Choose one ad supported service every 90 days. Peacock Premium or Paramount Plus.
- [45:02]
Host of The Psychology of Your 20s
Essential.
- [45:02]
Stephanie Beatriz
Additional registration required. Terms and conditions apply.
- [45:05]
Ed Helms
Hey, it's Ed Helms. And welcome back to Snafu, my podcast about history's greatest screw ups. On our new season, we're bringing you a new snafu every single episode.
- [45:16]
Nick Kroll
32 lost nuclear weapons. You're like, wait, stop.
- [45:19]
Host of The Psychology of Your 20s
What?
- [45:20]
Dexter Thomas
Ernie Shackleton sounds like a solid 70s.
- [45:23]
Ed Helms
Basketball player who still wore knee pads.
- [45:26]
Narrator/Voice Actor for Kill Switch
Yes.
- [45:26]
Ed Helms
It's going to be a whole lot of history, a whole lot of funny, and a whole lot of guests. The great Paul Scheer made me feel good. I'm like, oh, wow, Angela and Jenna, I am so psyched you're here.
- [45:39]
Nick Kroll
What was that like for you to soft launch into the show?
- [45:43]
Ed Helms
Sorry, Jenna. I'll be asking the questions today.
- [45:47]
Nick Kroll
I forgot whose podcast we were doing.
- [45:50]
Ed Helms
Nick Kroll. I hope this story is good enough to get you to toss that sandwich. So let's, let's, let's see how it goes. Listen to season four of SNAFU with Ed Helms on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [46:07]
Narrator/Voice Actor for Havoc Town
There's a vile sickness in Abba's town. You must excise it. Dig into the deep earth and cut it out. The village is ravaged. Entire families have been consumed.
- [46:21]
Host of The Psychology of Your 20s
You know how waking up from a dream, A familiar place can look completely alien. Get back.
- [46:28]
Narrator/Voice Actor for Havoc Town
Everyone's gonna dance. And if you see the devil walking around inside of another man, you must cut out the very heart of him, burn his body, and scatter the ashes in the furthest corner of this town.
- [46:42]
Narrator for Havoc Town Promo
As a warning from iHeart podcasts and grim and mild from Aaron Manke, this is Havoc Town, a new fiction podcast set in the Bridgewater audio universe, starring Jewel State and Ray Wise. Listen to Havoc town on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [47:02]
Narrator/Voice Actor for Havoc Town
The devil walks in Alice Town.
- [47:05]
Dexter Thomas
Are there any pictures of you online? I'm not just talking about Google. I'm talking anywhere.
- [47:10]
Narrator/Voice Actor for Kill Switch
Clear view scrapes together images from Facebook, from LinkedIn, from Venmo accounts.
- [47:16]
Dexter Thomas
That database is now being used by police departments all across the country to match criminal suspect photos. And sometimes it makes mistakes.
- [47:24]
Narrator/Voice Actor for Kill Switch
So in this one case, two of their search results that I think were in the top 10 of the search results were Michael Jordan, just a picture of Michael Jordan.
- [47:32]
Dexter Thomas
But cops are still using it to make arrests.
- [47:34]
Narrator/Voice Actor for Kill Switch
Police, they are trusting the software to lead them to the right suspect. But you're not even being told that it was used, let alone given any of the details about how it works.
- [47:44]
Dexter Thomas
This is not Minority Report. This is happening right now. People are getting arrested and doing actual time in jail after being picked out by a computer. I'm Dexter Thomas, host of Kill Switch, where every Wednesday we expand explain the right now of living in the future. You can turn off the computer, but do not let the computer turn you off. Listen to Kill switch in the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [48:07]
Stephanie Beatriz
I'm Stephanie beatriz, actor and Walmart plus member with Walmart Plus. I save 10 cents per gallon at over 13,000 gas stations. Exxon Mobil, Walmart and Murphy Stations. But you know who doesn't? Prime members. They save at way less stations.
- [48:21]
Host of The Psychology of Your 20s
Awkward.
- [48:22]
Stephanie Beatriz
And yet their membership costs more than Walmart plus double awkward. Walmart members save 10 cents per gallon at over 13,000 locations. Who knew? Walmart switch and save today $139 prime annual fee versus $98 Walmart plus annual fee, gas at participating stations. 5 cents in Alaska and Oklahoma.
- [48:38]
Johnny Knoxville
Hello, America's sweetheart. Johnny Knoxville here. I want to tell you about my new true crime podcast, Crimeless Hillbilly Heist from Smartless Media, Campside Media and big money players. It's a wild tale about a gang of high functioning nitwits who somehow pulled off America's third largest cash heist.
- [49:00]
Ed Helms
Kind of like Robin Hood, except for the part where he steals from the.
- [49:03]
Host of The Psychology of Your 20s
Rich and gives to the poor.
- [49:05]
Narrator/Voice Actor for Havoc Town
I'm not that generous.
- [49:07]
Johnny Knoxville
It's a damn near inspiring true story for anyone out there who's ever shot for the moon, then just totally muffed up the landing.
- [49:16]
Ed Helms
They've still $17 million and had not bought a ticket to help him escape.
- [49:21]
Host of The Psychology of Your 20s
So we're sitting like, oh God, what do we do? What do we do?
- [49:23]
Narrator/Voice Actor for Havoc Town
That was dumb.
- [49:25]
Host of The Psychology of Your 20s
People do not follow my example.
- [49:28]
Johnny Knoxville
Listen to Crimeless Hillbilly Heist on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [49:40]
Narrator/Voice Actor for Havoc Town
There's a viral sickness in Amber's Town, you must excise it, dig into the deep earth and cut it out from.
- [49:50]
Narrator for Havoc Town Promo
Iheart Podcasts and Grim and Mild from Aaron Manke. This is Havoc Town, a new fiction podcast set in the Bridgewater audio universe, starring Jewel State and Ray Wise. Listen to Havoc town on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [50:07]
Dexter Thomas
Are there any pictures of you online? Then you could already be in a massive police database without even knowing it.
- [50:13]
Narrator/Voice Actor for Kill Switch
Clearview scrapes together images from Facebook, from LinkedIn, from Venmo accounts.
- [50:19]
Dexter Thomas
I'm Dexter Thomas, host of Kill Switch, a podcast about how living in the future is affecting us right now.
- [50:25]
Narrator/Voice Actor for Kill Switch
Police. They are trusting the software with this magical ability to lead them to the right suspect.
- [50:30]
Dexter Thomas
In this episode, we dive into how cops are using AI and facial recognition and sometimes getting it wrong and putting innocent people behind bars.
- [50:38]
Narrator/Voice Actor for Kill Switch
So if your accuser is this algorithm, but you're not even being told that it was used, let alone given any of the details about how it works.
- [50:47]
Dexter Thomas
Listen to Kill Switch on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [50:54]
Host of The Psychology of Your 20s
This is an iHeart podcast.