Rachel Hollis (2:58)

She is one of the coolest entrepreneurs that I've met in my years of doing podcasting. She's someone that I admired for a really long time before I ever got to meet her in real life. And she is one of the most honest and authentic entrepreneurs. So I knew that she would be an incredible person for you to get to hear from today because she tells it like it is. We were just chatting backstage and was like, we gotta like give it to them. So will you please, please, please welcome Cassie to the stage. Hello. Also this outfit, you guys. I mean, thank you.

Cassie Ho (3:39)

I love the energy in here.

Rachel Hollis (3:41)

I know. It's almost like you own a fashion brand. It's crazy. Okay, so for anybody who I know this is such a silly question, but if they live under a rock, this is their first time out in like 30 years. Will you just tell them about the businesses? Not just business, but the businesses that you own.

Cassie Ho (3:59)

Okay, so there's two brands. There is Popflex, which you may have heard of because Taylor Swift ended up wearing our pirouette skirt, the lilac short skirt. And then there's Blogilates, which is our more affordable brand at all targets nationwide.

Rachel Hollis (4:16)

Also no big deal. Okay, so we're going to go all over, but really get tactical with the advice today. And I want to start at the beginning because. And not the like, tell me about when you were six. But you started. Was YouTube your first thing? And then like, how on earth did you build this? Two massive brands, really successful massive brands from a platform, like from a, from a community and an audience. Tell us that story.

Cassie Ho (4:44)

Yeah, so in 2009, I started a YouTube channel without knowing that I was starting a YouTube channel. No, really, because back then there was like no monetization, no being famous or like ad campaigns. It was really just a platform for sharing. And so what was going on was I was about to graduate from college with a degree in biology. My parents wanted to be a Dr. Lala, all that stuff. I didn't want to, but anyway, so something that really kept me sane all throughout college was doing Pilates. And so I taught at the local studio like three days a week. And I remember my students were like, oh my God, Cassie, what are we going to do when you graduate and you move? And I had just gotten a job on the east coast to go into fashion buying. And I thought, okay, since nobody is teaching pop Pilates, which was Pilates to pop music, nobody was doing that at the time. I recorded myself doing a 10 minute workout because the limit on YouTube at that time was 10 minutes. And because I didn't know how to edit. I had to set up the camera and like start the song, go and end at 9:59 and chop. Because I didn't know how to do cuts or anything. And so anyway, I put up like this video that was like really bad quality for 40 people. And then more than 40 people ended up watching it after I put it on YouTube. Like thousands of views, hundreds of comments asking for, you know, a butt version and an ab version and an ARM version. And so I listened to them and then the Blogilates YouTube channel became a thing. But I did not mean to start a community. I just meant to stay connected with my students.

Rachel Hollis (6:19)

Yeah. And I think one of the secrets, if you don't follow Cassie on social, you are missing. And I'm not just saying this because you're here. You're literally missing a masterclass because no, truly, I don't know anybody in your position who utilizes it as well as you do, who comes up with so many different ways. And I mean this with so much respect, like, to talk about the same thing, because that's a big question. Like, even when I started having books come out, I would be like, how do I talk about a book without annoying them being like, here's my book. Right. And you are so smart in taking her along the journey with you. So how on earth did you figure out with that community, like, how to speak to her? The like, was it trial and error? Was it like, I'm just going to try something and see what they respond to and then pour gasoline into that? Like, what was that process like for you?

Cassie Ho (7:08)

Yeah. So backtracking pretty much from 2009 until like 2021, it was all fitness videos, horizontal, long form, but anything between five minutes to like 30, 40 minute long videos. Then, you know, in 2020, 2021, I was like, I want to show people the other things that I actually do behind the scenes, which is I design. And we had always had. We were always selling something in the background, but that wasn't my content. Poplar had started in 2016 and it wasn't until 2021 when I changed my content to short form vertical, telling people the why behind the design. That. That is when sales started to take off like crazy. Because they were interested not only in this as content and entertainment, which was so weird, but they wanted to be a part of that. They wanted that because they knew the why.

Rachel Hollis (8:03)

Yeah.

Cassie Ho (8:04)

So it was really cool. I did not expect this to become a format. You know, showing my sketch and then the things I did to get it to the final product. But I noticed that after I created that format, there were other brands that started copying this format. And then I was like, oh, I guess it's a format. But, yeah, that's. That's how it started.

Rachel Hollis (8:19)

Yeah. I think that that's a really good tip for anybody who has marketing or social or any promo that you do for your business. We want to know the story like you want. Your community wants to know what's behind it. They want to know why. I mean, again, go follow her, because what she does is she'll be like, you know, this is why we put a pocket in here. And, like, when I go to the gym and my boobs are flopping around, like, you don't really say that. I'm saying that we talk about camel toe.

Cassie Ho (8:48)

All of it. Yeah.

Rachel Hollis (8:49)

But you're explaining why, like, so many people in your position who have a big platform or have a community would just go get blanks. Right? You just go get something that already exists. You wouldn't design because it's way easier to just go get something and slap your name on it. But you actually are going through the process, which is, like, years, to get to some of this stuff.

Cassie Ho (9:08)

It's years, but it's also for the right type of person who wants that. Because, like I said, I started this channel, I did not mean to build a community, but it worked out that when it was time for me to, you know, start designing things, there was a community to talk to. So I'm very grateful that it happened in that way, but it wasn't planned in that way. But what I mean is that I've seen a lot of creators and influencers want to get product out there. They want to have a brand so bad. And yes, that initial batch, they put all the marketing behind it. They're making the videos, but then that's just them pushing it. Is the product good enough to stand on its own? And because for me, I've always wanted to be a fashion designer, ever since I was a little, little girl, I always carried a sketchbook with me. I drew my friends, like, prom dresses and my costumes. Like, everything, like, that's been in me. And so when I am working two, three years on one single design, I love every moment that that may not be for everyone. But the great thing about that, too, is that because I'm in that entire product development journey, that becomes also my script for when it's time to release that video. It's all, like, right here. And, like, something you guys don't know is That I actually edit and film all of my own videos still, you don't know. I know, I know, I know. Everyone is like, oh my God, Cassie, you need to get an editor. And I did have editors back in my fitness days. But let me tell you, by 2021, I was so like mentally unchallenged by my fitness videos that I wanted to do something else with my content and show people behind the scenes and, and editing those short form videos brought the joy back into me for editing because it was storytelling, showing people how I got there over the past, you know, year, two years, three years to the end result of a product.

Rachel Hollis (10:51)

Can you honestly, for me, because I want to steal it. Can you tell us like, no bs, how are you? Are you batching your content is like one day. I know, it's so hard.

Cassie Ho (11:03)

No, I literally, guys, I'm like so, so ineffective. Like, I do not think anyone should do it the way that I do it. It's like all in my head. And so if I feel like I want to make a video, I will just set up the camera, you know, do my hair, makeup a little bit and then I just like start modeling things and you know, pulling on things because I know that I know my product. But look, if I had to work with a director and a filmer and like, you know, I used to do all of that, I, I would have to explain and like write a shot list and all that kind of stuff. So I am lucky in one sense that it's all in here and I get to really do my voiceover and my editing, like on my phone. I edit on my phone in real time. But like, here's the terrible part. It takes like nine to ten hours of work for one one minute video. I know, it's so terrible, but that's why I can't, I cannot really hear that.

Rachel Hollis (11:56)

I literally need to hear that.

Cassie Ho (11:57)

It's like true, truly, like inefficient. I know that it's not inefficient.

Rachel Hollis (12:01)

I. Does anyone follow her online? Like, it's not inefficient because those videos sell so much.

Cassie Ho (12:09)

That is true.

Rachel Hollis (12:10)

It might take 10 hours. But like, I know, like the comment section is wild. The likes, the shares that it is actually incredibly valuable. So I get. But I'm just, I'm happy to hear it takes a long time because when I'm editing a video, like when I make, I'm just like, this is actually insane. Like I will spend hours and hours and my kids are like, can we eat dinner? And I'M like, in a minute, I'm trying to sync this to the song. So I'm. Honestly, that helps me a lot.

Cassie Ho (12:39)

Yeah. And so I don't do the batch thing sometimes because, you know, I've done my hair and makeup. Okay. Maybe I'll film, like, a few. You know, I'll put on a model a few things and talk about it. But then it kind of kills the joy, too. If I have to do a few at a time. Then it just feels. Feels like. I know, like I'm on a conveyor belt and I'm just, like, doing this not because it brings me joy, but because I have to. And so for me, as a content creator, you know, but also slash CEO, and I'm sure we'll talk about, you know, teams and building teams and stuff. It's really hard because I'm having, like, multiple hats, which I'm sure all of you really understand. But, yeah, I got to always keep it authentic. And to me, that means I. At this moment in my life, even though I'm dying and I don't sleep, this feels right. It feels right. But, like, also, like, other parts of my body aren't, like, really working. I gotta figure it out.

Rachel Hollis (13:29)

Okay, so I'm curious then, how do you ideate on those ideas? Because you do have formats that you repeat, but you also are doing stuff that's so original. So, like, the thing you just did with the water balloons.

Cassie Ho (13:39)

Oh, my God.

Rachel Hollis (13:40)

Like, how do you ideate on that?

Cassie Ho (13:41)

I don't know. It's just like, okay, so the water balloons, if you haven't seen the video, essentially, when I started Pop Flex, I started with, like, little dainty bras and stuff like that little straps, because I am, like, an A cup, so I don't understand, like, full support. And so, of course, as we launch, people are asking for things that are not my lived experience. And so we spend three. I think we spent about three years on creating the super bra. And for my video, of course, I can't really model that in a way that you would believe me that this actually works. And so I decided to fill up a water balloon and I measured it and I looked online to see, okay, how. How much does a C cup weigh? Or a D cup or an H cup? And I made it that weight, and I put it in my boob. And then, like, I wore the bra and I started jumping. I was like, oh, this actually works. Now, of course, look, we have actual fit models with actual G cups that we work. But, like, in the entertainment portion, of it like that. Like, it's interesting. And then recently I did the same thing for our Super Bra 2.0. And like, I had just done my nails and I popped and the whole floor was wet. And I kept that as the intro.

Rachel Hollis (14:47)

It was interesting. Fantastic video, by the way. So I love this idea that you are sort of living in the moment with those things and keeping them authentic and you're like the OG when it comes to being online and building a community. Do you, number one, how just for people who aren't in it, how integral is a social media platform to the success of your company? And then how, like, do you have a cadence for how much you are putting out? Like, are you like, I have to release X times a week even if I don't feel like it, Even if I'm not feeling cute today, I am making the content because it's a big part of the business.

Cassie Ho (15:23)

Okay. The truth is, if I'm not feeling cute today, I'm not filming. No, I'm for real. If I can't show up and feel like I look good, like, I don't want other people to see me like that. But that's on my page. So I am. I have the Blogilates page, which is really Cassie Hope that's anything that I want to post about my personal life, like my products. That's why the people on my page are just me. Now we have the Pop Flex page and the posting cadence on that is seven days a week.

Rachel Hollis (15:50)

Yeah.

Cassie Ho (15:51)

And so there's a marketing team over there. Of course I look at what they're about to post, but for the most part, like, that's on its own schedule. The Cassie Hoblog Lottie schedule is based on feelings.

Rachel Hollis (16:03)

So you. You don't challenge yourself to have to release a video.

Cassie Ho (16:06)

I have definitely, like, been in a place where I feel guilty for not being able to post a certain amount of times a week. But the thing is, if the content's not going to be good and I don't feel like it's going to send, I don't do anything. Then why put it out there? I know there are different types of content creators who are like, you got to post 3 times a day or whatever and just get it out there. I am not that type of person, so I can't get myself to do that. But our marketing team on Popflex can. Yeah.

Rachel Hollis (16:37)

So there's always something there.

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Cassie Ho (17:54)

And also because on the other page we're showing women of all different body types, there's more, you know, to show where again, it's just me talking about one product. And because the video takes 10 hours to make, like I as a picture human cannot put out more than that. And then your first question was, how integral are the platforms to the success of the business? So I just asked my husband, Sam, where is he? He's right there. He's the COO of our company. He's the best. We've been together for so long. And a side note, we. We met in 2008 and he was actually my finance tutor in college because I got a B minus on a test. And then so I went to a tutoring session and it was. Was Sam. Yeah, that's when we fell in love. And then we got married 10 years later in 2018. So y. Anyway. What? Oh, platform. Platform. Okay. See, it's not just so distracting. Okay. I actually asked him today in the car. I was like, hey, cuz, he's the numbers guy. I was like, how much of our business is actually reliant on organic versus paid content? And he told me 90% of our sales are from organic, which is very unusual for any D2C brand. But I think it's because I am so content forward and I really do care about what I put out there. So the content works and it does sell a product sometimes within hours, which is really cool.

Rachel Hollis (19:14)

Yeah, I don't actually know how to do ads. I really don't.

Cassie Ho (19:18)

They're confusing.

Rachel Hollis (19:18)

They're super confusing. And someone recently said, I joined a community for entrepreneurs, and they were saying, you know, ads are so powerful because then you at least have some control over sales. Like, you know, if I do xyz, then, then it will equal this result, which I never really thought of it in those terms before, but I am very similar to you, I think, because we both built from platforms, I actually don't know how to run an ad. So this event sold out because you're in my community. And I was like, hey, guys, I'm doing. And there's 100 people on a wait list for this room. And that's just because you are inside of a community already. So I think I'm so glad you said this thought on, like, you're not doing, oh, I have to post seven days a week as a personal brand. You're like, no, I'm posting it because her posting a video or me or any of you putting something out that you're really freaking proud of and you're really pumped about is going to get you 10x the results of the thing that you're just putting out because you think that you have to. So let's talk about building the team, because you have done so many amazing things and you have such incredible vision, but you would not be in the place that you're at if you didn't have a team around you. And I'm curious, how many people in this room have a team that. That they're working with right now? Hands higher. Okay, great. So, like, tell us your wisdom. When we hung out for the first time, we talked about what it means to build a team that's not great and then to learn from those mistakes and then to build a better team. So let's. Let's wrap it up. So tell me, like, when you hired your first person or you started to hire people, what were the things that you were looking for back then? Like, warm body breathes in and out, you know, versus what you look for today.

Cassie Ho (20:57)

Okay. So back then, when we hired our first person, I took the advice of a really big YouTuber, John Green, very smart, and he said, hire from your fan base because they already know the mission. They get it. You don't have to explain anything. And so some of the first people that I hired literally was from the fan base. And initially it was amazing. But then this really weird thing happened that I think is very specific to someone who is an online content creator slash a boss. I think what happened is that they expected to see that happy, bubbly hey, guys, Cassie here type of person. But that's the workout Cassie. That's not like, you know, the. In office Cassie. And I think that created a lot of tension of, like, oh, like, I don't know if she likes me or, like, what's going on. It, like, it got really weird. It got really weird to a point where, you know, there'd be chatter in the office, and then I would walk in. All of a sudden, the chatter would just stop. You know, they were talking about me about something, and so it was very, very toxic. Some of the worst times of my life. And a lot of those people are not with us. I think only two people made it out of that group. And that group was, like, in 2018

Rachel Hollis (22:09)

or something like that. When we talked about this before, I remember you saying that you were considering shutting the whole thing down, right?

Cassie Ho (22:15)

Like, it was so bad. It was so bad. I had panic attacks. I've never had that in my life. I was about to quit Blogilates, the Channel Pop, Flex, the entire brand. I was like, I'm not made out for this. I'm not meant to be a CEO or a fashion designer. I suck at everything. But what I learned is that I wasn't surrounding myself with the right people, because people either suck you of joy or give you energy. And these people were sucking me of joy. Oh, yeah. And, yeah, they really almost sucked me to, you know, me ending everything, which. Which is crazy. But I'm lucky. Now we have a team of 33 people, which is really cool. And all of it is on the apparel and production side and marketing, but none of it is on the blog. Lottie's, like, personal Casio side. It's just me because I don't trust anyone to go to my account and do anything for me. It's very dangerous. It is. It's very dangerous. It is. But that's just me. That's just my personal thing.

Rachel Hollis (23:07)

Yeah, something, too. If I'm not mistaken, that when you started to look for people to step into these roles and, like, for it to get bigger, like, you're going into Target, there's bigger things happening that you were hiring people who were from company like Lulu. Like, you were hiring people that had the skills already, which is a huge mistake. A lot of entrepreneurs make. You hire, like, you're insecure, if we're being honest. So you hire someone that makes you feel safe. So you hire someone who knows less than you do. But the actual unlock is, like, who knows more than I do in this area? So who can Actually take who's been there, who's walked the path, and now they can teach me as we walk together. So how do you, like, navigate that?

Cassie Ho (23:48)

So a big turning point for our business was actually Covid, because that caused everyone to have to work from home remotely. So this created a situation where I could now hire across the United States. And that meant, like, my talent pool was anywhere. And so when I had put up. What do you call. Not an audition. What do you call it, a job listing for the, you know, technical design or something like that, one of the first people that responded was someone who worked at Spanx. And as you know, with Spanx, their fit is in. I mean, it's tight. Yeah, yeah, it's wonderful. And so we got her on board, and then she introduced us to some other people at Spanx, and then it led to a place where now we actually have a. A physical office in Atlanta, Georgia, because that is where they are. Yeah, I know. It's really cool. And we've moved offices three times because we keep growing every year. And now we have people from free people, Reebok, Carters, like, really good companies that. Where they've been trained. And the wonderful thing about people that come from corporate is that they really appreciate the freedom and the specialness that we have at our company. And look, I. I used to work in corporate. I lasted only eight months. It was bad. But everything I learned at that job were all the things that I never wanted to do to my employees. And so every experience that I go through is really valuable to me, even if it's really painful in that time. But, yeah, I'm. I'm learning from my design team every single day. And it's really cool because I never got to go to design school, and so every day it's like, design school for you.

Rachel Hollis (25:29)

So cool. How are you? Like, do you have guiding principles for when you're bringing people into the team? Are there sort of rules or boundaries that you guys set that you're like, to work here, you've got to be this and this, or we really want to make sure and, like, look for these red flags. Is anything that guides that process.

Cassie Ho (25:45)

Okay, so here's. Here's the secret. I think it's a secret. Maybe it's not. Maybe people do it. But back in the day before COVID it felt like you had to. Essentially, one interview was like a date, a blind date, right? And then you have to offer. Offer a marriage proposal, and then if it doesn't work out, you have to get divorced. And it's like so intense. But because of the whole Covid situation, I hired contractors and if contractors felt right, then we would offer them a full time role. And because they had already proven themselves during that period, we had a longer time to date and it meant the marriage would be better. And so we have actually hired like our next almost like 20, 30 people, like in that same way. And for the most part, everyone is still with us. They're thriving, they're getting promotions. Like, things are working well. But I think it's a really flawed way in how hiring works these days because you don't really get to know someone, obviously by talking to like, someone can interview really well and not know anything that they're talking about, which I've dealt with that too. I have to be able to work with you. And so I always put someone on project, feel them out. But then in terms of like, personality, there's such small things that I look for. Even if we're like on Zoom or on Google Hangout, I can see in their eyes if they're like actually passionate or care about what they're doing. And I'm not saying that you have to smile or whatever, but I can tell when a genuine joy comes through your body. And to me that's always such a green flag.

Rachel Hollis (27:14)

Yeah, they always say, and I forget who the quote's from, but you hire for passion and you train for skill.

Cassie Ho (27:20)

Yeah. And I've hired for skill alone before and ooh.

Rachel Hollis (27:23)

Yeah. Yeah. It's not exactly what you're looking for.

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Rachel Hollis (28:27)

One of the things I so admire in watching Your journey is your ability to, how do I say it? Like, go with the flow and like utilize what is happening and turn it into something bigger. So will you tell them the story of the, of Taylor Swift? Gate of skirt, gate of whatever that is called? Let's start with the story and then I want to lead us to where you went to with it, which is like mind blowing to me.

Cassie Ho (28:51)

Okay. So in 2021 I sketched this very specific score called the Pirouette skort. It's a wide waistband with a two tiered mesh skort with shorts under pockets inside, no front seam, so no camel toe and you twirl in it. Super pretty. It's like for you know, dance classes or tennis, pickleball, something like that. I had never seen anything like that before. My style is very. I bring romance to every activity that I do. I love girly things and I don't shy away from it. So anyway, I drew that. I told Sam when I sketched it in 2021, I think shein is going to dupe this. And sure enough, after I released it, it went viral on all platforms. TikTok, IG, YouTube sold out immediately and three months later shein duped that exact design.

Rachel Hollis (29:37)

Will you explain Shein if they're not

Cassie Ho (29:39)

familiar with the brand? Oh, she and is like this like fast fashion like company that steals independent designers designs and sell it for dirt cheap, like cheaper than I can manufacture it for. But that's their retail price and they have shady practices and it's just, it's bad. So it's bad, it's bad. It's a fast fashion.

Rachel Hollis (29:57)

So did they steal it before Taylor wore it?

Cassie Ho (29:59)

Yes. Okay. Yeah. Because it had already gone viral online and so they stole it and I made a whole post about it. Then the US President of Shein ended up reaching out to me and saying hey, like let's talk about this. Because he wanted me to take down the post. And it turns out that his daughter was a fan of Blogilates. And she came into the room screaming at her dad, being like, why did

Rachel Hollis (30:22)

you do this to Cassie?

Cassie Ho (30:23)

Oh no, no, seriously, the children saved the day. He would have never wanted to talk to me. So anyway, we get on the clock. He doesn't apologize for the situation, but he says like, you know, he ends up taking it down. And I just like, I just like decided to not continue talking about that situation. I kept the post up though. And then you know, he did, he did say he wasn't going to do it again. And three months later he did it again in the same colors as my next drop. And so it got, like, really, really bad. And I was so upset, and. But that inspired me to get a patent on the design.

Rachel Hollis (31:03)

Yeah.

Cassie Ho (31:04)

And it's really difficult to get a patent on a piece of clothing, but I was able to because it was something novel. Nobody had done anything like it before. And so I was granted the US design patent on it in 2024, and that was granted my birthday, which is really cool. So I felt like it was a sign. I'm very much a numbers person in, like, 6016 is, like, the day I was born, January 16th. And so every time I feel like I see a 16, I feel like something good happens. Anyway, so that January, I get the patent. We're able to take down a lot of these dupes that are now happening. All, not just Shein. I'm talking about, like, Amazon, TikTok, shop, like, Alibaba, AliExpress, like, all of them. It's everywhere, right? And then four months later, in April, on April 19, Taylor Swift post one of her videos for the launch of the Tortured Poets Department. And she's wearing my purple pirouette skort. And, like, I didn't even know because I was getting my hair, my roots dyed at the moment. And, like, I had my phone off. And then, like, you know, all of a sudden when I pick it up, there's a million notifications. Like, you have to go check YouTube. You have to check IG. And then when I see it, I, like, can't even believe my body is stunned.

Rachel Hollis (32:14)

Because she's a huge Taylor Swift.

Cassie Ho (32:15)

I'm a huge Taylor Swift fan. Like, I've been listening to her since 2008. Like, I love her. She's got me through so much heartbreak. And I was like, just, like, I was just numb. And. And I remember in those. Those next, like, few minutes, all of the pirouette squirts sold out on a website, like, in every single color. It was insane. And that was the beginning of the Taylor Swift effect. Now, along with the Taylor Swift effect comes the duping that already happened, taken to a whole nother level. And, like, thank goodness I had the patent in January because we were able to take down, like, a lot of these, like, smaller vendors. But here's the crazy thing with dupes in fashion. It starts with the Internet brands, then it gets to the big, big guys. And so a few months after she wore it, I started seeing it at stores like JCPenney, Kohl's, Nordstrom, like, real big American brands, and, man, Like, I have never felt so much like a little David versus a bunch of Goliaths at the same time. And like American billion dollar companies, like, it's so crazy and they're not listening to you. And they, they. The problem with the whole USPTO system is that you pay thousands of dollars to have the right to, you know, your invention, but no one helps you enforce it. So it ends up becoming my dollars versus the dollars of someone like a Nordstrom. Like, of course I, I can't do that. That's insane. And so what do I do? I go to social and I end up talking about it. And, you know, it's painful to see something that you've spent so much time on. You're like, you're a baby just being stolen and sold and exploited in front of you. But I think being able to talk about it also created like this extra mission behind what I was doing and for the brand that, you know, sometimes I would just go on the street and like, instead of people saying like, oh, I love your workouts, or I want to be a designer one day, like, keep fighting. Yeah, it was always. And I was like, yeah, this is really great.

Rachel Hollis (34:14)

So these videos are all on her. You should just go watch them. Because even us describing this, it's such a unique product. It. They copy. I mean, it's dead on copy. Like, exact color, exact shape, all of the things they stole, like your models, the poses. Like, this happens to little brands all the time. And you're not little, but, like, people who don't have your platform, who have no way to fight back. What I remember watching, and like, I know you, right? And I, we've sat together, we've talked. I said to my husband, I was like, oh, she's. This is wild. Like, she's taking them on. Because I've been in lawsuits before and it is one of the most stressful experiences. I was like, I. And I, I support you so much. But I was like, this is gonna cost her so much money. But to watch you just unabashed, you should go through and just watch these videos. She didn't just talk about it then. It was like a rally. The thing with the cake where you like, stab the cake with their name on it. And like, you just, you were like, you got the whole community. And now all of a sudden, now they're pissed on her behalf and now they're tagging these brands in the posts and you're taking them on and it was like, you didn't just like, have like a theory you had receipts and you could back it up. And I don't know, I was so proud to watch because my instinct was like, oh, this is too big. She shouldn't do this. And then I was like, okay, baddie. Like, let's go. Okay, so you take them on now. Tell us what happens.

Cassie Ho (35:42)

Okay, so I'm taking on several giant multibillion dollar corporations all at once and spending a lot of, like, hard earned dollars on the legal team. But it's necessary because for me, it's about the principal, you know, and it's been so slow. But just at the beginning of this year, we're beginning to see some of that money come back and some of these really big guys. I'm talking like Victoria's Secret and stuff like that. Oops. Am I supposed to say that?

Rachel Hollis (36:13)

Yeah, we'll cut it out.

Cassie Ho (36:16)

Really big guys, like mall brands that you've seen, they're starting to pay out these, like, big figures because they know they're in the wrong and they don't want their reputation to be ruined.

Rachel Hollis (36:25)

Right.

Cassie Ho (36:26)

So it's working, which is really cool. Which is really cool.

Rachel Hollis (36:30)

And then, yes, all the love for that. Okay, here's where this becomes, like, if I didn't already have such a girl crush on you, this is when it, like, went right on over the edge. So I literally have chills. So. And you'll have to tell us timing on this. But when I saw the videos of the brands have come back, they're taking things down. But then in removing those products from their shelves, it meant just tons and tons of tons of product that would go into a landfill.

Cassie Ho (37:00)

Yeah.

Rachel Hollis (37:01)

So tell us what you decided to do. And then I need you to explain to us how you came up with this idea. Cause it's unbelievable.

Cassie Ho (37:07)

Okay, so obviously getting the product out of the stores was the most important thing for me. But then it became a problem of, so what should we do with all the skorts? All these big brands, like, you know, the JCB pennies, the coals and things like that, the gaps, they were like, we're gonna destroy it. And as someone who, like, I just. I can't see that happening. Like, I know the dupe is terrible. I hate the dupe. But the fabric is innocent. That is not okay for us to get rid of it. Yeah. No, really. And, you know, the lawyers were asking, well, what do you want to do? What are you doing? I was like, I don't know. And so I really did sit on it for a good several months. And then one day I was like, wait, what if we just collected all of the dupes? Like thousands and thousands of dupes. Store it at our warehouse, which is going to cost money, but I'll figure it out. And I partner with some upcycle independent fashion designers and work with them to create something even more beautiful out of it. So take the fabric and create a dress or something. And so, yeah, and so I contacted two girls that I followed on Instagram who are so talented, and they were all about it. They created this pattern. They ended up making these beautiful dresses. And I told them, okay, we're gonna sell your pattern on our website and 100. The proceeds are gonna go to you guys. And we'll also send these skorts in, like, these little boxes, your own kit out to whoever is gonna buy it so they can create the scores to take. Take the skirts, take them apart, and then create the dresses that you guys designed. And so we put that up, and I swear to you, within under two minutes, all of the DIY kits sold out. It was insane. It was insane. I had never seen anything like that before because I was like, I didn't think my audience was, you know, sewers and things like that. Maybe it was some of theirs, but their audience is, are, like, quite big, but not, like, terribly big. But the mission behind this was so strong, and people wanted to be a part of this. And it honestly, I would have to say that that day was one of the biggest, most meaningful days in my life as a fashion designer. I think it was so impactful and

Rachel Hollis (39:22)

I'm very, so incredible. There's just. I want to. I want to break this apart because there's so many pieces of this that I think we can all take bits away from. So you, first of all, you were like, you've made a wrong right. You've done something wrong. But if we do another wrong thing, that's not gonna make it right. So, like, you being willing to take in all of that inventory is wild to me. You didn't just go, like, how can I profit from this? You were like, how can I help two other women, two other entrepreneurs, two other people who are up and coming. How can I help them benefit? And the designs they made are incredible. She's talking about a skort. They turned them into, like, ball gowns,

Cassie Ho (39:58)

like, full on evening gowns.

Rachel Hollis (39:59)

Unbelievable. It's so, so pretty. And they're two totally different designs. So, like, when I first saw that video of, like, oh, my God, Cassie is genius. Like, you are working with these other girls, but you were Like, y' all can get these designs. It will help to support these women, and we'll just send you this fabric so it doesn't go to waste. It's mind blowing. And of course, the audience is in on it because they're part of this journey. I guarantee there are so many women who do not sew and will never sew, but we're like, yeah, I'm going

Cassie Ho (40:28)

to be of part.

Rachel Hollis (40:28)

Part of this. Like, let's stick it to the man. Let's do the thing. How do you come up with, like, how do we get from here to here?

Cassie Ho (40:38)

I don't know. It just came to me. I don't know. Sometimes I just have ideas. Yeah.

Rachel Hollis (40:45)

But then I guess, how do you have the courage to realize, like, what you just described, literally no one has ever done in the history of time what you are saying right now. So how do you even have the courage to be like, this will work?

Cassie Ho (40:58)

Well, I didn't know if it was going to work. In fact, like, we were telling the warehouse team, like, hey, maybe just, like, pack 10 packages, like, kits each, like, 20, like, it was probably not going to sell. And like, when it did, we were like, oh, never mind. Like, put it all together. Like, let's get more of the dupes in from all the vendors and everything like that. I really didn't think it. For me, it was like, hey, let's do this is the right thing to do. But I didn't think that there was actually, like, a customer base behind that. And it is so cool because, like, we paid thousands of dollars to each of the designers, and they're getting thousands every month because people keep buying the pattern and the score. So it's really, really cool.

Rachel Hollis (41:35)

Yeah. I think what I'm hearing in your story over and over again is something we talked about earlier today, which is this idea of you can see something as an obstacle or you can get around it and it becomes an opportunity. And so, again and again, you have these experiences where you're able to take what could be a really hard thing and learn from it on the other side. So is that something that you've had since childhood, or do you think that's something that you've learned as you are an entrepreneur?

Cassie Ho (42:02)

Let's see. I think being online for so long, since 2009, I've had my fair share of people saying terrible things about me, about my body and all that kind of stuff. And I had to find a way to survive. And one of those ways was taking their negativity and turning it into something better. So for example, one of my first really big viral videos was taking all these negative comments about, oh, why do you have such a flat butt? Why don't have abs, like why do you look like that, all that kind of stuff and putting it on the screen and then taking those comments and photoshopping my body while moving into what they wanted me to look like. And at that time there weren't apps or anything like that. It was literally editing photos frame by frame, 30 frames per second in like a 2 minute video to get my body to look a certain way. Of course I had like an editing of VFX team to help me with that. And that video was for me to heal. Because you can't imagine how damaging it is on your self worth and your mental health, your emotional health is. Everyone is telling you every day how terrible you look. And like my whole point in being a Pilates instructor at that time was, was had nothing to do with how I looked. It was about teaching. That was it. But the weird thing about the Internet is that if you don't look like the epitome of health, whatever that means, then people will drag you down for it. And the other weird thing about fitness and health and that whole sector is that things can get really, really religious in terms of like, if you don't do things a very specific way, someone's going to tear you down and make up things about you and say like, well, she looks like that because she doesn't eat like that lalala. So it was getting really, really damaging for me. I put out that video for myself. That video became one of my most viral videos ever. I was on Good Morning America to talk about it. I was like all over the news and so many people wrote in, including men, saying like, I had to share this with my daughter and my wife because now I understand like how hard it is to be a woman and all that kind of stuff. And so yeah, I think that whatever this is we're talking about with me being able to take negativity and turn into positivity and came from all these terrible comments that I was getting online. Yeah, yeah, that's where it started.

Rachel Hollis (44:15)

Do you feel like it's the price of admission in having a platform like yours and being able to build what you're building? And I'm leading the witness a little bit because I don't know a single entrepreneur who has a public platform who doesn't deal with some version of this. And I think it's helpful to hear, to hear that from other people, because we tell ourselves a story that, like, everybody has to like me in order for the business to work, and it's just fundamentally not true. In fact, I would say it's way more important to know who you are for and to show up for them than to try and please everybody, because you never can.

Cassie Ho (44:49)

Yeah, you can't please everybody. But as someone who has grown up a perfectionist and a people pleaser, it's a constant struggle for me not just to have my audience like me, but to make sure my team likes me. Like, which. Which gets you into weird places. Because at the end of the day, isn't it really one about making sure that you really enjoy what you're doing? Okay, but secondly, we're serving the customer. We're making a great product. And I feel like as long as I can focus on those things and I'm not hurting anybody, then I'm doing the right thing. And if I'm not your flavor, then fine, you don't have to like me. But there are also a lot of people that do. And I think that something I have to constantly remind myself is that even though I may get a certain number of negative comments about something, there are so many people that do like it, and a lot of people that like things also don't comment. Right. So I have to remember that. But I am also a very sensitive human being, and that is, you know, my superpower to being able to know, like, kind of, like, how things are feeling in the room and, like, what design should go out next. I'm very in tune. But also, that means I feel everything. So I feel. When someone's mad at me, I feel this and that. And so that's something that I'm constantly trying to work on. And. But it is what it is. And I think as long as you believe in your mission and you go for it and you're not hurting anyone, then just keep going.

Rachel Hollis (46:03)

Yeah. So how involved. How aware are you of community comments? Like, are you. Is that a big part of your strategy is, like. Because I hear you say this a lot in videos. You're like, y' all asked us for the color pink, or you asked us for this. Is that real? Or is that, like, marketing or.

Cassie Ho (46:20)

No, no, it's real. So on the Poplar side, we have these things called design with us, and we'll ask them, like, okay, do you like bandos better or crop tops or, like, long tanks and things like that? And we have a channel on Slack called Poplar's design Data. And like, we'll share polls from either social or actual data from sales. All of this really matters. And then of course, there's the portion where I just know that's going to be a hit. And so we're just going to do it, Take it. Well, no, as in we're still taking a risk. But, like, I know. And so it's a mixture of all that because I'm getting a little bit off topic, but I think it's really important that, yes, you look at new numbers and data. You also have to trust your instinct, because how are you going to be a leader in your industry if you're just following historical data? And having worked with a lot of major corporations, their buyers are so focused on data that they're not willing to take that leap, to take a chance, do something interesting. I can see how certain companies will get stuck in that mindset, but for me, like, luckily at this moment, like, I really know what I want and I'll just go for it. And look, if it, if it's wrong, whatever, we'll deal with it. Yeah, but because that flexibility to try and always be creative and like, you know, go back and forth and be flexible like that, that is part of our company DNA. We have to always be flexible or else we're going to get really stuck. I always tell my team, like, we have to act like a speedboat, not a cruise ship, because these cruise ships, they can't even turn around, but, like, speedboats can do circles around them. So let's work fast. Of course. Precisely. But let's not have so many layers and take so long. It really just, like, annoys me.

Rachel Hollis (48:01)

Yeah, you said something, too. That really mirrors my career, which is all of the greatest success I've had in my career was me proving that something was a thing. So, like, trying to convince people that this book would do really well and nobody wanted to buy it, and then it's like, okay, well, I'll just put it out myself. And then, then it becomes successful and everyone's like, oh, we love this. So, like, this idea of, yes, you need to pay attention to what's going on, but the biggest successes I've had in my career ever were things that I just freaking knew. Like, I knew it would work and I had to. At some point, you just have to, like, go out and, and do the thing and prove that it's a thing in order to get to a bigger level. And I, I want you to take this in because sometimes when I was younger, I would sit in rooms like this. And I would hear someone like you, and I would be like, I want a brand at Target. That's my new goal. I want to brand at Target not understanding all of the steps that need to come between where we are and how we get there. And that Target was never going to be interested in anything you had to offer if you didn't have all of this history to back up that you knew what you were talking about. So when you think of that road specifically, like going from being on your own and building your own business to partnering with some of these major companies, and I think we all like, you'll have your version of this even if you're in a. If you're a lawyer, if you're a real estate agent, like, wow, what would it mean to my life if I could partner with someone on a bigger level? How did you approach getting to a place where, like, you earned your seat at the top table, you earned your right to be in that room?

Cassie Ho (49:35)

How did I approach?

Rachel Hollis (49:37)

Yeah, like, did you say, like, someday I'm gonna be at Target and then I'm gonna do this, this and this and this to get there? Or like, what did that look like for you?

Cassie Ho (49:46)

You know, I feel like the thing with me is that there wasn't like a strategy to get into Target. It was just I was doing my thing and then I put my whole heart and soul into it. And so they ended up approaching me, like, for that, like, collab. And so I remember, like, way back in the day when, like, I first started blogging this probably like 2010 or something. I remember asking a blogger who was bigger than me at the time was like, how do you get brand deals? Like, how do you do it? And she was like, just wait, they'll approach you. And so I suppose because I put into the world Pop Flex and they really saw how successful that was, they approached me about putting the apparel brand at the front of all stores at the top of 2025, which was insane. I remember walking in for the first time and seeing this collection we had worked on so hard. And just so you guys know, that was fully manufactured by like, our team. That wasn't like a collab where, you know, Target took that on. So it was, it was an extremely difficult year in 2024, running a secret behind the scenes business behind the Pop Flex business. Like, I really was dying. I'm still dying and I'm still trying to figure it out. But I remember walking in and just like, like, my body just like kind of shut down and I started Crying because like I didn't even know this was possible. Like I knew I always wanted to be a fashion designer. I wanted to create things, I wanted to wear them and see other people wear them. But like I did not really see that happening and it was like really, really cool. So I'm, I'm sorry I don't have like a strategy answer for you.

Rachel Hollis (51:23)

And I think that that's honestly an incredible piece of advice because just focusing on the product, being amazing, being passionate about what you're building, caring about your community, that puts you ahead of 90% of people who are actually reverse engineering from a different place. So any answer is the right answer because it's your truth. I love that I would be remiss if we didn't talk a little bit about building a social platform because you are the queen of this. And I know you said it's like feeling and what you're vibing and will you. Okay, are you consuming other people's content? Like, how do you go about figuring out what you're going to put in the world from a social perspective?

Cassie Ho (52:01)

Okay, so I am scrolling a lot on TikTok and IG and I'm seeing what's out there. Although I will say like lately I've been pretty bored everything out there. Also comments are so negative. It's just not a good energy out there right now. So I don't enjoy scrolling. You know, back in the day, you know, in like the 2013s and 14s were scrolling, IG was just like pure innocent joy.

Rachel Hollis (52:21)

Beautiful.

Cassie Ho (52:22)

No longer there. Yeah, yeah, no longer there. TikTok was beautiful in 2020, now no longer there. So anyway, I scroll just to see what the trends are. But for the most part, unless I see a cute little song that or trend I could do something to which I don't do very often. For me it's all product based. So if I am really excited about something that we're putting out, then I will take out my phone and I'll start filming and then I'll start editing and then I'll post it. And so that's how social works for me right now. Well, if it's product based and then there are times when I will use it just as a place to like almost like a therapeutic release. So sometimes because I, I used to blog every single day and back in the day it was a lot easier for me to be very honest and say everything. And then as I got bigger there was more critiques about things I would say and it really like made Me feel like I couldn't say anything at all. But these days, if there's something that I do really want to share, because a very profound lesson came from it, I'll put up a carousel and I'll talk about, like, something that happened. And those perform really well too, but they're not often because I don't have, like super profound moments all the time. So I save it. But, you know, some people are different. Again, they might post every day, three times a day, but I just post when it feels right.

Rachel Hollis (53:43)

Yeah, Honestly, that's so refreshing for me because I feel like most of what I see now are people being so intense about it. And I really struggle with that because I'm like, I have. I have kids. I have this very intense job. I'm trying to get all these things done. And now I also need to go to a dance with, like, graphics. I don't.

Cassie Ho (53:59)

So.

Rachel Hollis (53:59)

Really? Yeah.

Cassie Ho (54:00)

So it really.

Rachel Hollis (54:01)

Yeah. It helps me though, to know that, like, you're not falling for that either.

Cassie Ho (54:05)

You know, I learned long time ago that the dances don't work for me, so I stopped doing that.

Rachel Hollis (54:09)

You just don't do that. Yeah. Okay, so last question, because we could talk to you forever, but I want to make sure and be respectful of your time. If you could go back 10 years, earlier in your career, earlier in this thing that you are building, do you know the advice that you would give to Cassie 10 years ago that would have really helped her? If you were sitting in this audience today and you're at the start of something or wanted to grow, what do you think is some wisdom that would have helped her in that journey?

Cassie Ho (54:39)

It would probably be something about make sure you surround yourself with people that bring you joy in the work environment, in friendships. I feel like I'm fine there. Work environment was difficult for me to navigate back when I started. In the very beginning, I didn't know that entrepreneurship and, you know, creating a product, starting a business would be so much about managing people. Like I did. I didn't. I really didn't know that. I thought it was just about creating a good product and selling it. And that's the fun part. But these days I still struggle with, like, how to ensure that my team is motivated and happy and working hard. But, like, also, I'm sure some of you can relate. Like, their problems become your problems. And as a sensitive person, like, it really does, like, dragging me down sometimes physically too. Like, literally yesterday I was crying and like, it's. It's hard. And so I'm learning every day how to be a better manager and a better leader. But I. I think I would tell my young self something about hiring the right people. The people that really emit joy.

Rachel Hollis (55:47)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You guys give it up for Cassie. H.

Rachel Hollis (55:52)

Yeah.

Rachel Hollis (55:53)

Thank you so much.

Cassie Ho (55:54)

This is such a gift. So you guys are so sweet.

Rachel Hollis (55:59)

So stinking good. Go follow Cassie on all the places. We will let you get back to your life. But we're so grateful. Was this not the best? Was this not such a good thank you guys. I will hold it for you. Thank you.

Rachel Hollis (56:19)

The rachel hollis podcast is produced by me, rachel hollis. It's edited by andrew weller and jack noble.

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