How Books Help Us Make Sense of Real Life | EP 97

Summary

The Read Well Podcast: How Books Help Us Make Sense of Real Life | EP 97

Host: Eddy Hood | Guest: Binny Kirstenbaum | Release Date: April 21, 2025

In Episode 97 of The Read Well Podcast, host Eddy Hood engages in a profound dialogue with Binny Kirstenbaum, the author of Counting Backwards. This episode delves deep into themes of caregiving, dementia, the human condition, and the intricate balance between tragedy and humor in literature. Below is a comprehensive summary capturing the essence of their conversation.

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Introduction to Binny Kirstenbaum and Counting Backwards

Eddy Hood opens the episode by introducing Binny Kirstenbaum, highlighting her acclaimed work, Counting Backwards. He remarks, “I like books like this that do a good job at showing what it means to be human” (00:48).

Binny explains the autobiographical elements of her novel, noting, “The earlier parts are not [fiction], but a whole lot is fictional” (01:25). This blend allows her to explore personal experiences while crafting a narrative that resonates universally.

The Significance Behind the Title

The title Counting Backwards holds profound meaning. Binny shares, “There is a scene when he sees a neuropsychiatrist who administers the sort of standard dementia tests. And part of it is you have to count backwards” (01:37). The act of counting backwards symbolizes regression, both mentally for the character Leo and emotionally for his wife, Addie. It reflects the pull of the past over the future, encapsulating the essence of living in moments of decline.

Narrative Style: Second Person Perspective

A standout feature of Counting Backwards is its second-person, present-tense narration. Binny reveals, “I started writing that way... and kept trying both [first and third person], and they either felt cloying or too removed” (02:43). This choice immerses readers directly into Addie’s experiences as a caregiver, fostering a personal connection and empathy.

Eddy observes, “It works for this book because it puts you in the shoes of a caretaker” (02:33), emphasizing how the narrative style enhances the emotional depth of the story.

Exploring the Human Condition Through Caregiving

The heart of their discussion centers on the portrayal of caregiving and the complexities of loving someone while grappling with their decline. Binny articulates, “I wanted to show that you can love somebody, but you're not a saint... [showing] the destruction of her life in a way as much as his” (03:51). This honest depiction underscores the emotional toll caregiving can exact, highlighting both love and human fallibility.

Eddy adds, reflecting on his own experiences, “It feels like you really feel bad for Addie because she's trying to do her best... you also feel bad for Leo because he's losing grip on things” (05:14). This dual empathy enhances the narrative’s relatability.

Tragedy and Humor: A Delicate Balance

Binny identifies herself as a “tragic writer,” delving into the darker aspects of the human experience while interweaving humor. She mentions, “I believe that humor and tragedy are interwoven” (08:12), suggesting that finding absurdity in tragedy can provide emotional reprieve.

Eddy reflects on a poignant moment from his own life, connecting it to the book's themes: “When my grandpa passed away... it was very fast. I had never dealt with tragedy before” (10:04). This shared vulnerability reinforces the episode’s exploration of coping mechanisms through storytelling.

Mental Disappearance: Depicting Dementia

A significant portion of the conversation focuses on the portrayal of Lewy Body Disease in the novel. Binny discusses the challenges of depicting an illness that lacks straightforward diagnosis: “There are no tests for it... and the doctors tend to discount exceptions” (12:24). This complexity mirrors real-life frustrations faced by caregivers and patients alike.

The dialogue underscores the importance of literature in shedding light on such nuanced experiences, fostering empathy and understanding among readers.

Characters: Addie and Leo

Eddy reads a poignant chapter from Counting Backwards, illustrating the tension between Addie’s patience and Leo’s regression. The passage highlights Leo’s altered perception, referring to ATMs as “money machines” and Addie’s internal struggle to maintain composure. Binny explains, “I can do what I want... chapters are only a paragraph” (18:25), emphasizing her creative freedom in structuring the narrative to reflect the fragmented experiences of caregiving.

Advice for Caregivers

Drawing from personal experience, Binny offers heartfelt advice to caregivers: “Get help. Don't even do anything yourself” (23:15). She stresses the importance of seeking support to preserve one's well-being while caring for a loved one. This candid recommendation highlights the unsung challenges caregivers face and the necessity of community and assistance.

Eddy relates this to broader societal practices, advocating for shared responsibilities: “You should probably ask for help if you want it to go well” (27:08). This reinforces the message that caregiving is a communal effort, not a solitary burden.

Enhancing the Reading Experience

Towards the end, Binny shares insights on deepening the reader’s engagement with literature. She encourages readers to “luxuriate in the words themselves” and to reflect on why certain passages evoke specific emotions: “Pause at those moments that struck them and either think about how that came to be or why did that strike you?” (32:30). This mindfulness in reading enhances the appreciation of narrative craftsmanship and emotional resonance.

Eddy echoes this sentiment, noting, “One of the biggest jobs as a reader... look for the authors who are willing to try and reflect all of those people as accurately as possible” (40:18). This approach fosters a richer, more empathetic reading experience.

Conclusion: Embracing Empathy Through Storytelling

As the conversation winds down, Binny emphasizes the fictional nature of her work, clarifying, “This is fiction... think, what if, you know, suppose this happened instead of that” (37:34). This creative exploration allows readers to traverse diverse human experiences, enhancing their understanding and empathy.

Eddy concludes by reinforcing the transformative power of stories: “Story answers a lot of questions that we can't answer ourselves” (36:43). This encapsulates the episode’s overarching theme: literature as a vessel for comprehending and navigating the complexities of real life.

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Key Takeaways:

• Narrative Innovation: The use of second-person perspective in Counting Backwards creates an immersive experience, placing readers directly in the caregiver’s role.

• Emotional Duality: Binny effectively balances tragedy with subtle humor, showcasing the multifaceted nature of human emotions.

• Realistic Portrayal of Illness: The depiction of Lewy Body Disease highlights the unpredictable and challenging aspects of dementia, fostering empathy and understanding.

• Advice for Caregivers: Seeking help is crucial for maintaining personal well-being while caregiving, a message that is both compassionate and practical.

• Deep Reading Practices: Readers are encouraged to engage more thoughtfully with literature, appreciating the craftsmanship behind storytelling and its emotional impact.

Notable Quotes:

• "I wanted to show that you can love somebody, but you're not a saint..." — Binny Kirstenbaum (03:51)

• "Get help. Don't even do anything yourself." — Binny Kirstenbaum (23:15)

• "Pause at those moments that struck them and either think about how that came to be or why did that strike you?" — Binny Kirstenbaum (32:30)

Supporting Indie Bookstores:

In her closing remarks, Binny urges listeners to support indie bookstores: “If you have a local one... support your local bookstore” (42:04). This call to action emphasizes the importance of nurturing local businesses and sustaining diverse literary communities.

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Final Thoughts:

Episode 97 of The Read Well Podcast offers a rich exploration of how literature mirrors and makes sense of real-life experiences. Through heartfelt conversation, Binny Kirstenbaum and Eddy Hood illuminate the profound connections between storytelling, empathy, and the human condition. Whether you’re a caregiver, a lover of deep narratives, or someone seeking to enhance their reading habits, this episode provides valuable insights and inspiration.

For those eager to delve into Counting Backwards, Binny recommends supporting indie bookstores, ensuring that local literary ecosystems thrive. As always, Eddy Hood reminds listeners to "read slowly, take notes, and apply the ideas," encapsulating the podcast’s mission to foster meaningful reading habits.

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For more insightful discussions on building strong reading habits and exploring intellectual ideas from the books you love, tune into The Read Well Podcast. Discover practical advice on effective book notes, annotation skills, and leveraging tools like Zettelkasten or a second brain to master any topic that piques your curiosity.

Transcript

[Eddie Hood]

Welcome to this week's episode of the Read well podcast. My name is Eddie Hood and I'm your host where I believe it's more important to read well than to be well read. So grab your favorite book, open up your notes, and let's get ready to learn something fascinating. Hello, everybody. Welcome to the Read well podcast. My name is Eddie Hood and I'm very excited for this week's episode today. I have Binny Kirstenbaum with me today. She is the author of Counting Backwards, among several other books. And Benny, thank you for being on the show. How are you doing?

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

My pleasure. I'm doing as well as one can do in these times, you know.

[Eddie Hood]

Yeah. Have you been doom scrolling Benny, like the rest of us?

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

Unfortunately, yes. And lots of it.

[Eddie Hood]

I know. I'm so exhausted by it.

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

I am. I have friends who don't. And I say, how can you resist? Even though it's this living nightmare, but I can't stop.

[Eddie Hood]

Well, I mean, at least it's fodder for your work, right? You can use all this garbage to write stories. I don't know. It's very fictional, I think. Yeah.

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

No, it doesn't seem real.

[Eddie Hood]

Yeah. So we're going to be talking today about your book Counting Backwards, which has been just a pleasure to read. I like books like this that do a good job at showing what it means to be human. This is a book that is somewhat autobiographical. Right. You went through it.

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

The springboarding is. A whole lot is fictional, but the majority of it is fictional. But the earlier parts are not.

[Eddie Hood]

Yeah, sort of the catalyst part. Right. I mean, you had a husband who went through this and so on, and then you turn much of it fictional, so. Which I love. I think that's really great. So let's start with the title. Why did you call it Counting Backwards?

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

Well, there is a scene when he sees a neuropsychiatrist who administers the sort of standard dementia tests. And part of it is you have to count backwards. But also because it felt like the husband, Leo, is regressing and he's going backwards, and it felt like life was going backwards. You know, you look at your life and you always think about the future. And here it's going back into her past in a way, or there is no future, so we don't go forward.

[Eddie Hood]

Okay. So in this book we have really two major characters. We have Leo, who's the gentleman, the husband, who is a scientist, and he's afflicted with Lewy body disease, which is a form of dementia.

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

Right.

[Eddie Hood]

Okay. And then we have. We have Addison or Addie, who, as the reader. That's who I am. Because you chose to write in second person, present tense, which is not done very often.

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

No, no, my editor, when I told him, he sort of balked. And then I gave him the first 50 pages, and he said actually he was really happy with it. He thought. Yeah, he kind of forgot that it was.

[Eddie Hood]

That you don't read very many second person books. It works for this book because it puts you in the shoes of a caretaker. Right?

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

Yeah.

[Eddie Hood]

That makes it more personal.

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

I started writing that way, and I don't know why. And then I thought, oh, no, this has to be first person or third person in a traditional novel. And I kept trying both of those, and they either felt in the first person, it felt almost cloying, like a little too sentimental or something. And then in third person, it felt too removed. And so somehow second person just seemed to strike the balance I was looking for.

[Eddie Hood]

Yeah. Nice. Okay, good. So. So Addison, or Addie is the wife, and she's caring for her husband. So the book opens and this poor gentleman is at the window, and he's looking out at the street and starts to have these hallucinations. He's having hallucinations because of Lewy Body Disease. Right. And he starts to regress. And so as you are writing this, what's your ultimate message? What are you trying to get across with a book that's about caregiving and dementia?

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

I mean, part of it wanting to show the flaws in people. I mean, as much as Addie loves Leo, caregiving is beyond her, and she can't really bear what's happening to him. And, you know, I wanted to show that you can love somebody, but you're not a saint, and that people are human and they deal with different things in different ways. But I think to be utterly selfless or to not feel destroyed, and I think I wanted to show the destruction of her life in a way as much as his.

[Eddie Hood]

Yeah. Did you have a hard time writing that? Getting it to that point?

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

There were moments I had a hard time. I mean, as I said, the earlier part of the book is based on my experience, although there's a lot in there that's invented, too. But as it goes on, it becomes more fictional. And curiously, some of the parts that were pure fiction were harder to write. I'm not sure why exactly, but it just. There were certain chapters or scenes that I found I just kind of had to pull myself together. That it was. They were painful because they were coming from somewhere in the subconscious that I didn't want to see.

[Eddie Hood]

Yeah, I would agree. As a reader, I'm reading this going, I feel like you would almost have to go through this in order to write this. Just because I have never gone through caring for somebody with Lewy body or any form of dementia. I've watched people sort of progress to the end of their life, and I've been there with them in their last moments. But I've never been a caregiver, and I'm sure I could write a story and try to write that experience, but in a minute later on, I'd love to actually read one of the chapters, because the chapters can be somewhat short. Yeah. But they are really nice. Yeah, it's a really nice chapter because it shows what Addie's going through as a caregiver, how she's trying to work with her husband, who is, you know, experiencing these hallucinations and dementia. It's funny and it's sad and all of the things that you experience when you're dealing with a loved one. Right. But you can definitely feel that. Let me put it this way. So if an author writes she was scared, that doesn't make me scared as a reader. Right, right. There's sort of a different layer that you have to tap into to get the emotional bit, it seems like. And you know it when you read it. And it feels like there's a lot of that in this book, where it's like, wow. Yeah. You know, you really feel bad for Addie because she's trying to do her best. You also feel bad for Leo because he's losing grip on things, and you want them to be happy, but then you can also see why they're not.

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

There's no. Actually, nothing I write is happy. I just don't go there.

[Eddie Hood]

But you're not a happy writer.

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

No person sometimes, but not a happy writer.

[Eddie Hood]

You have. In fact, that's actually interesting. Let's talk about that for a spin. I mean, you have several other books and stories out there. What are some of the other ideas that you've explored in your writing?

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

Well, the one before this is called Rabbits for Food, and that's actually about a woman who has a breakdown. And the first half of the book is her having the breakdown. It culminates all in one day. And then the second half of the book is when she's in the psych ward. And then another book that I did, Hester among the Ruins, is about a woman who's Jewish, whose parents had fled Germany at the onset, when you could still flee. And she's an historian and she goes to Germany to study, not actually the Holocaust, she thinks she's going to go study the medieval era and falls in love with a man there and they have this great passionate relationship. And then it turns out that his parents were peripheral Nazis, like not big time. But the point for that was I really wanted to explore how long does it take before our history or our nation's history and our family histories really do become a thing of the past and how do we move forward?

[Eddie Hood]

So those are some pretty heavy topics.

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Eddie Hood]

Why do you find yourself sort of digging into those heavier topics?

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

Well, they just interest me more and I, And I do, as I said, like to explore sort of the darker side of the human condition. I find it is what I want to explore, both the darker side of the world in some ways, and also just the real difficulties that people have in life. But I also believe that humor and tragedy are interwoven. So I don't know that the books are lightened up by it, but I think they give a little reprieve from some of it.

[Eddie Hood]

Definitely in counting backwards, there's a sense that dealing with the tragic, but they're definitely. It's written in a way that can be light hearted. And so it's like, hey, like, what are you gonna like? My mother, she's always gone through hard things, but she just laughs in the back of the room. What am I gonna do? All I can do is laugh about it.

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

Well, yeah, you sort of see the absurdity in these tragedies and the absurdities become funny. It's, you know, why comics can look at what's going on and stand up on stage and be funny and they're talking about what's going on, you know?

[Eddie Hood]

Yeah. And it's cathartic to listen to that or to read it. Right. To read a tragedy is cathartic for the rest of us, I think.

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

So. I just feel that we have more to learn by trying to empathize and. Or become the characters in a way and go through what they're going through. And I think that ultimately teaches us more about what it is to be human.

[Eddie Hood]

Yeah, yeah, you mentioned the human condition. So in my community and in my book club and what have you, we always read books that have kind of a philosophical question at the base of it. Sometimes we read philosophy books, but mostly we read books just exploring the human condition. Because that's what philosophy is. Yeah, right. It's trying to understand what it means to do this thing that we're doing. You know, we didn't have a choice to be here, but here we are. And it's hard and to forgive.

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

People understand that no matter how reprehensible characters in books are, I think I don't want to be friends with those people necessarily, but I learn from them more. You know, it feels like overall nice and overall happy or good. They don't penetrate in the same way.

[Eddie Hood]

Yeah, yeah. And it seems like one of my favorite things. Well, let me back up first. Would you call yourself a tragic writer, then, like, you focus on tragedies?

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

Yeah, I think. Yeah, I would. Some years ago, a critic referred to me as a standup tragic, which I thought was really funny.

[Eddie Hood]

So let's unpack that. The stand up tragic, as in, you write tragedies, but you try to show the humor, but they're funny.

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

Yeah, Like a stat. People would say a stand up comic.

[Eddie Hood]

But I think that definitely applies for counting backwards. For sure. There are some really great moments there that it made me think of. Like when my grandpa passed away, I remember sitting next to his bedside and he was healthy one day, and then three days later he was not. And it was very fast. And I was probably 21, 22, and just had never dealt with tragedy before, you know, very privileged in my life.

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

Everything had gone well at that point.

[Eddie Hood]

Like, life is good. But then when grandpa died, it was like somebody opened a door that I didn't know existed.

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

Yeah, yeah. I think sometimes we do experience what I call, you know, the little tragedies of life, the disappointments.

[Eddie Hood]

Oh, yeah, sure.

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

You know, lost loves and things like that. But death is intense. I mean, it's that accepting never again. I'll never see this person again.

[Eddie Hood]

And I think that's the definition of a tragedy, isn't it? That there has to be a death at some point.

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

In Shakespeare's.

[Eddie Hood]

Yeah.

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

Comedies always end with marriage and the tragedies always end with the death.

[Eddie Hood]

With the death. Yeah. Very nice. Very nice. Okay, so we're writing in second person, which makes this feel more personal. As the reader, it puts you in the shoes. It made me think of caring for my grandpa in those last days. Made me think of the good and the bad. I had definitely made it more palpable. So let's talk about this concept of mental disappearance. Because dementia is tragic in itself. Right. To lose yourself is a hard thing to write.

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

Yeah.

[Eddie Hood]

What do you think about that?

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

To watch somebody disappear, essentially, while they're still alive. Yeah. Lewy body is different than the other dimensions insofar as there's not a steady decline. And also there's no. That might have changed since I was researching the disease more. And what I experienced was there's no test for it. A brain scan doesn't show anything. There's no blood tests, there's no hereditary factors, so they have no idea where it comes from. And there's no way to diagnose it except through the symptoms. And the. There's two problems with that is one is there are lists. I mean, the symptoms go on for pages. It's like every strange thing that can happen mentally. Any little blip, any quirk, they're all listed there. And also some physical changes as well. But not everybody gets all those or exhibits those or even the vast majority of them, they don't necessarily come in any particular order. And there's these long stretches of time where everything seems fine, person bounces back, they seem like themselves. And so it is. It makes it very difficult to diagnose, and in some ways it makes it very difficult to accept because I know with my husband, when he'd have those plateaus, we'd both think, oh, there's nothing wrong, you're fine. You know, and he'd be fine for a month or six weeks. And then later the fine got, you know, down to maybe a week and, you know, and it got shorter and shorter until they take the big plunge and then there's no more times of fine. Although that's not from what I read, that's actually not true that they do have flashes when they come back. So the progression, it's very unsettling in that way to see people go back and forth because it is difficult to diagnose. One of the things that I used in the book that was for the most part true was when my husband went to see the neur after his scans all came up clean and see anything. And when he went to the neuropsychiatrist, he was perfectly fine. So he gets that test and perfectly fine, you know, so they don't have an answer. And one of the reasons they didn't have an answer was because there's two things that are sort of the clear onsets, and one is very vivid hallucinations, and the other one is symptoms of Parkinson's disease. Trembling, shuffling, walking. And most everybody who gets Lewy bodied starts out with those two. And usually the Parkinson's symptoms come first, but not with everybody. And so the doctors that he saw were all asking the same thing. Are you trembling? Are you shuffling. And he wasn't. So they discounted Lewy Body Disease. And only later did I learn that, because at that point, he wasn't able to do that. And I saw a different doctor on my own did I learn that there's exceptions. Not everybody does that, but the doctors tend to discount exceptions. And so it made the diagnosis very difficult. And at least early on, he was very. He knew he was hallucinating, so it wasn't. At least earlier on. And so he didn't really seem like dementia wouldn't have entered into the thought process or anything like that, because he was aware of it. So I think it's a problem with the eyes or some other part of the brain, you know, having something wrong with it, because it wasn't like he saw these things and really believed that those things were there.

[Eddie Hood]

Yeah. I was wondering about your husband and also sort of what goes through Leo's head, the character in the book, what it's like to sort of surface from that deep water, then go back in and then surface and know that you're going to go back in.

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

I don't think he realized that. And honestly, neither did I until I found out. Okay. We both knew something was wrong.

[Eddie Hood]

Okay.

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

But. Because the doctors couldn't determine what it was. But I wasn't quite sure. But as time went on, I think he became less aware that there was something going on.

[Eddie Hood]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

Well, I was becoming. It was becoming more and more obvious to me.

[Eddie Hood]

Yeah. Well, I think this is why books matter. Right. Because they let us live the life of somebody else for a minute, whether it's somebody who goes through a disease like this, and it's tragic, which I think is very beneficial because it allows us to realize that there are people going through things, sometimes very hard things. Right. And maybe we should be a little more kind when we're on the street or maybe, you know, whatever it might be.

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

Well, let's look at people as people.

[Eddie Hood]

And I. I find it weird. Have you ever done this where you're walking, like, maybe if you're sitting in a restaurant and there's like 50 people in there? You ever thought there are 50 worlds in here? Like, everybody's doing their own thing, has their own point of view? It's the craziest thing.

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

No. I mean, we share so much, and yet we share nothing in a way.

[Eddie Hood]

Yeah. And of course, I mean, the standard argument is that with social media and Internet, that seems to be getting more and more. Right. Divided, and we're more isolated, which is a shame. Yeah. Interesting. Okay, so I would like to, if I can, read you a chapter of your own book. This is a short chapter. Can we do that and just talk about it for a second?

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

Sure.

[Eddie Hood]

That'd be fun. Okay, so while I'm pulling this up, one of the things that is interesting about counting backwards, your book is the length of this chapter. Some of them are a little longer, but some of them are like a paragraph quite short. Why did you do that?

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

Well, initially, when I first started to write it, I was imagining it almost like a photograph album and looking at these isolated moments. And then that wasn't quite working, but it almost felt like this is the place to stop. And I also felt like I wanted that breathing room in between things sometimes. But it was part instinct that was making me do that. And then almost a craft choice. It just felt like no, land here and then pick up. It doesn't matter that a chapter is only a paragraph. That's okay. I can do what I want.

[Eddie Hood]

I love it. Don't tell me what to do, what I want. I'm from New York. I can do whatever I want.

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

It's not the New York part so much.

[Eddie Hood]

I love New York, actually, by the way. I'm going there in a couple months just for fun.

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

Good.

[Eddie Hood]

Yeah. Well, when I read this book, the reason why I like the different length of chapters, especially the short ones, is not because it makes the pacing faster. And that's always nice in a book book, but I like that it's doing the same thing that the second person point of view is doing, which is making me feel like I'm part of the caregiver experience with these short chapters. They feel like mental episodes.

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

Yeah.

[Eddie Hood]

And I think for people who struggle with any kind of mental illness, especially this one where you're popping in and out of it, Goodness gracious. The chapters feel like they're doing that to me, which is. Makes it a little more interactive. So, okay, something is broken. It's a little less than a patriot. But I'm gonna read this for people listening, because I want you to get a sense of Benny's writing style, which is a lot of fun. But I want you to listen for the humor in the tragedy that's here as well as the sadness, because I think she's having to pair both, which is a very tricky thing to do as a writer. And we have the two. Two main characters here, Addie, the wife, which is you, since you're the reader. Second point, second person. And then she's talking to Leo. So this is what the chapter says says, the money machines are broken. So says Leo. I stopped at the bank to get cash, he tells you, but the money machines were broken. To refer to the ATM as a money machine is a new one, but not without precedent. Leo has his own unique, albeit technically literal, linguistic spin for a handful of everyday objects. Like how in a summer, he'll say, it's hot in here. I'm going to turn on the cooling machine. To which you say, on planet Earth, we call that an air conditioner. All of them were broken. You're skeptical. Was a notice posted? Maybe there's something wrong with your card. No. Leo is adamant. The machines are broken. Come on, I'll show you. You don't want to go out. But Leo insists he prove himself. Right. Except when you get to the bank, after Leo inserts his card and enters his pin, the money machine spits out the $200 requested. Sheepishly, Leo says, they must have fixed them. It looks that way, you say, and it does happen. Inexplicable malfunctions will fix themselves. But to have been fixed, they had to have been broken in the first place. And you tell him, you should mention this to your neurologist. Why would the neurologist care that the money machines were broken? Because they weren't broken. Leo, as if pointless to argue with this with you, he lets it go, and you do the same. Okay, so that's a chapter out of Counting Backwards. And the reason why I loved it is because you've got this woman who is dealing with the beginnings of dementia. Right? He's assumed that all of the ATMs are broken throughout the whole city. Like. Well, they're not ATMs, they're money machines. He has his own way of describing things. And she's trying to be kind, she's trying to be patient, but you can feel that she's just like, I don't have time for this right now. Like, I don't want to do this right now. You know? You know? So there's that real sense of being human. Like, we all want to be angelic saints, don't we? We all want to think we're good.

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

People and we can be essentially good people, but that doesn't mean we're all. All good all the time.

[Eddie Hood]

No. Yeah. And. Yeah. And characters in a novel are boring if they're good all the time. Right.

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

I think, too.

[Eddie Hood]

Or boring if they're bad all the time. So it's fun to see the shades of gray.

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

Yeah.

[Eddie Hood]

Yeah. Yeah. So I think one of the joys of reading this book is watching Addie battle with trying to be good and losing her patience through just being worn down, exhausted, but also just emotionally sad. You know, she's dealing with a hard thing. So. Yeah, Interesting. Okay, well, so when you're writing this book, are you. What was your experience as a caregiver? I think that's another big theme of this book, that there's a. That life as a caregiver is an honorable but hard role. What would you hope to say to people who are in this role right now?

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

Get help. Don't even do anything yourself. Because, I mean, it's gonna sound awful to say that. Luckily my husband died rather quickly into this because the other thing with the difficulty with diagnosis with him, which I also used in the book for Leo, is that it was early onset. So he was much younger then this would. Normally someone would be afflicted with this. So to say that, you know, he died at a young age sounds callous. But he also didn't have to experience how awful and how tragic it really is. And neither does Addie, and neither did I. And so people will sometimes say, well, it's, you know, it's a blessing that they didn't go through the worst of things. And, you know, I was thinking, no, it'd be a blessing if it never happened, you know, but if it does. Yeah, I mean, to suffer less for everybody. And also I work and my apartment, or what was our apartment, is a five flight walk up. So for somebody who is not mentally functioning at. I couldn't leave him alone, even though he could do most everything for himself, but there were things that I couldn't trust him to do or. And so I couldn't leave him and just navigating the stairs for him, I mean, it was just a. I mean, he walked fine, but it was just an additional problem. And it's hard to say that I can't do this when you love someone or that I'm awful, you know, but it came to the point that I had to. And I have a friend whose father had dementia and her mother just insisted on. And he lived for a very long time with it and got really fully incapacitated. And her mother just insisted on dealing with this all herself and would have no help from anybody, so she had no life at all. And you want to be there for your loved ones, but you have to ask yourself too, would they have wanted you to sacrifice every minute of your day? And I mean, I wouldn't want somebody to give up their life for me. And I think that Leo in the book wouldn't have wanted Addie to give up her life for him, which is not the same thing as not loving the person.

[Eddie Hood]

Yeah. Love comes in many forms. And I think. I mean, it's hard to love somebody when you're not able to love yourself as well. Right. When you aren't able to take care of things at home. We recently read Anna Karenina in our book Slow. It's such a good book. In that story, there's a young man named Levin whose brother is on his deathbed. And he's not well, needless to say. And he's not being. He's not. He's being cared for, but it's clear that the people caring for him are just exhausted and drained and have nothing left. And when Levin shows up with his wife, Kitty, she helps. You just mentioned the caregiver should ask for help. She shows up and she helps. And she's able to bring more life back into the room just because her. More people to help. Right. Of course. She's a good spirit. But she opens up the windows and cleans the room and all of these things. And I think we want to assume that this is my wife or my husband or my son, and it is on me to be the saint and do everything. But you're right. I think if you love that person, you should probably ask for help if you want it to go well.

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

Yeah. Especially sometimes there's things we just are not physically capable of doing or emotionally capable of doing. And you don't want to lose your patience and be angry at that person. But you're human. And when you're drained and there's so much about these diseases that renders the person unreasonable and, you know.

[Eddie Hood]

Plus, you're not a doctor.

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

Right? Yeah. There's never any shame in asking for help for anything when you need.

[Eddie Hood]

No. Yeah. And also in recognizing that you're not a doctor. Right. Like you're not supposed to be able to be good at this stuff. And nobody's really built emotionally to watch somebody they love struggle with end of life stuff. And here's the interesting thing about this book or any book in fiction, really. I think most books are about love or death. I really do. Or a combination of both. Right. And I think it's because we're all wanting to be loved. That's like, number one goal. And everybody wants to be loved in some fashion. And we're all going to die. And on the way to that, we're going to care for people that will die. I mean, those are the two hills. Right. And so this. These kinds of books are nice because I think they allow us to take some of the taboo of death away. America is interesting in terms of how we deal with death because we hide death. We hide it. You don't see death in our country. Right. The bodies are taken away very quickly. The funeral service is all. It's like an underground railroad. I don't know what's happening. Right. But in other societies and countries, death is a very different experience. The body might be laid out on the dining room table for several days, and people hug the body and lie with the body and say their goodbye. It's just different. Death is different for people. Right. So it's nice to experience how people are working through it so that when I have to go through it, which I will, I have a little more empathy, a little more understanding. It's not as scary. It will still be scary, but not as scary. Right. I think that's why. That's one of the reasons why I read books anyway. Well, what about the future? Are you currently working on any new books or are you taking a break? Where you at?

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

Well, I always take a fairly lengthy break because writing a novel is just draining and it takes so long, and I think I just have to clear my head. And then there's, you know, book promotion things that we.

[Eddie Hood]

This.

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

I mean, I enjoy this, you know, this. But I'll start something soon. I have some little notes about some things more along the political, historical lines.

[Eddie Hood]

Perhaps, than this, but again, lots of fodder for that. Yeah.

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

So I, you know, just made some notes and. Paragraph here, paragraph there. And probably at some point, you know, July, August or something like that. I'll get back to work.

[Eddie Hood]

I love it. I love it. That's really cool. I like that you have a sense of, like, creative energy and giving yourself some space to refill it. I talk to a lot of authors in. On the podcast, and some feel the pressure to just always keep writing, keep publishing, you know, and it's refreshing, actually, to hear you say that. Nope. I'm gonna take a break for a couple months.

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

Yeah, I need to decompress after.

[Eddie Hood]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, if you're writing a novel, well, we as the readers can sense it because you've put part of yourself into it, and that has got to be exhausting to take something out and put it on paper. Right.

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

Yeah.

[Eddie Hood]

Be hard.

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

Yeah, yeah.

[Eddie Hood]

Good. Well, excellent, I guess. As we're wrapping up here today, I'm curious as an Author yourself. We're fascinated about reading in our community. We teach people to read slowly, take notes, apply the ideas to really enjoy books. Do you have any thoughts on being a better reader? How to spend time with stories well and really enjoy. What are your thoughts there?

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

One of the things that's always really important to me as a writer and as a reader is to really luxuriate in the words themselves and how they're. How the sentences are strung together and the effects that those things create. Often when I'm reading something and I'll think, how did they do that? And then I'll go back and read it again just to listen to the music that language can make. And I think often if we read poetry, we're paying more attention to something like that. But when we read fiction, we don't. And sometimes when we talk about. I think there's a difference between a really good story and really good writing. And what we want are those two things to come together ideally. But I don't know when readers get caught up in a story, which of course we want them to do, but sometimes they don't take note of, why is this evoking this particular image in my head? Or why is this funny? Or what is it about these things that are bringing these reactions about? And I do think it all has to do with that craft element, in a way. And readers just tend to take that for granted, which they should. I mean, you should. I mean, as a writer, I'll go back and say, how did they do that? But a reader shouldn't. But I think they should pause at those moments that struck them and either think about how that came to be or why did that strike you? What was it about that particular moment that brought about this feeling that you're having?

[Eddie Hood]

That's actually interesting advice. Most of the time when people read books, they only pause when they realize that they're not paying attention. And they go, I've been reading for 10 minutes and I don't know what I read now I gotta go back. That seems to be the only moment of self reflection that we have as readers. Right. What you're suggesting is to look for the other emotions, not just the disappointment, right?

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

Yeah. No, you know, the board pause is one thing, but we don't want that. But I think, because personally, I don't like to read about characters that are just like me in ways, but to meet somebody brand new and to live their life in another world or another time, another place, and to experience what they've experienced and to feel what they're feeling or why are they making this choice or that choice. And I think ultimately, that's how we learn more about ourselves, is exploring ourselves through someone who's not ourself.

[Eddie Hood]

Yeah, exactly. I don't know how much you would do it, because I wake up and I see what I see, and I think what I think, and I have no idea what your life is like, Vinny. I have no idea. I have a little bit of a better idea now. It's a little small, though.

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

You know, it's small.

[Eddie Hood]

A little bit of it.

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

Yeah.

[Eddie Hood]

Yeah, yeah.

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

I mean, going through this particular experience. But Addie is a very different person than me in many ways, and Leo in many ways, is different than my husband. And the other characters that are in there aren't fully invented for fictional purposes and to move plot along and to make happen what I wanted to happen.

[Eddie Hood]

Yeah. Yeah. Good. Yeah. I like that idea of hitting pause and reflecting on why this part makes me feel joy or romantic or scared or concerned.

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

Yeah.

[Eddie Hood]

Instead of just going, ooh, that was good reading.

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

That's why it makes you uncomfortable. I always think is really, you know, is there self recognition in something that you're not liking about this character or something that they did? Or is your. That's a good idea, you know, is your discomfort simply. I just can't stand this person. Which I don't think is a good way to read. Personally, I think we. We need to not judge the characters, but understand them. But there are times when we're reading where we sort of almost want to go faster because something's making you uncomfortable, and that's maybe the moment that you should stop and think about why is this making you uncomfortable?

[Eddie Hood]

Yeah. I like that. Actually, if you read reviews of any book, every book has better reviews. They all do. Right. And they have good reviews. But I think the battery views are funny because people will say, like, I really hated this character X, Y, or Z. And what you're saying is, it's not enough to. I mean, it's okay to hate a character. Right. But why, like, why is it not working for you?

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

Or they could just be hateful and, you know, and that's okay, but they're still human.

[Eddie Hood]

Yeah.

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

So it's looking for that humanity in somebody that we would otherwise dismiss.

[Eddie Hood]

Yeah. So one thing I find interesting about reading a book, it's a lot like getting into the elevator with somebody you've never met. Right.

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

Yeah.

[Eddie Hood]

And you see their physical description, and there's a polite, hello, how are you? And it Seems like in our society, hey, I did my thing. I said hi to a human, you know, and that's as far as we get in knowing all of these people that we pass every day going to work or to the grocery store. But what would happen if instead of judging that person for the way that they dress, the way they speak, and only saying hi to spending an hour with them on the park bench and asking what makes them tick.

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

Yeah. We need to understand what makes people tick to make the world a better place. And what makes ourselves tick.

[Eddie Hood]

See, that last sentence is really good, too. What makes ourselves tick? I feel like I often don't know myself. And the more time I spend trying to figure out who I am, the better I am to other people. Right. And books help me figure out what I like, what I don't like, who I am, and it helps me relate with other people. I love that about story. I think story answers a lot of questions that we can't answer ourselves. That's what fiction's good for, right?

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

I think so, yeah.

[Eddie Hood]

Well, excellent. Before we wrap up, are there. Is there anything that you would like the Readwell community to know about Benny or the books that you're writing, or should we just have them all go get counting backwards?

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

Yeah, just go get counting backwards. Yeah. The only thing that sort of tried to emphasize is that while the advanced copies, like, you got one that does say that it's, you know, loosely based on my experience, the product of the book that's out doesn't say that. And it is because there's a natural instinct, I think, when people read fiction to look for the author's life in there or, you know, make these associations. This must have really happened to them, and this is how they really behaved, and this is who they really are. And I think that, you know, say, if I wanted to write a memoir, I would have written a memoir.

[Eddie Hood]

Absolutely. This is a fictional story. Right.

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

This is fiction. And so, you know, whatever connections might have been based on something. For me, I always ask myself, well, what if, you know, suppose this happened instead of that? Suppose they went here instead of there. Suppose this person said this instead of saying that and letting my imagination go. And to me, that's what's most exciting about writing. Think.

[Eddie Hood]

Yeah, yeah, good. And reading. Right. Because as readers, we get to follow down that path.

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

And when you're writing, we have to be reading what we're writing. So, yeah.

[Eddie Hood]

Yeah. I think one of the biggest jobs as a reader because again, we're all about giving tips on getting more out of the books we read is that when you read a story with characters in it, the characters are not the author. I'm only going to bring up Stephen King because so many people know Stephen King, but he gave an interview once which some of the effect of, like, I get all this hate mail for the things my characters say. Yeah, I didn't say those things.

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

Yeah. No, I. Yeah.

[Eddie Hood]

Can you talk about that? What happens? What do you mean?

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

Because my characters are often not likable. Right. I mean, they might have some endearing qualities, but overall, they're not likable people. They're often, you know, rude or abrasive or they say things that are very impolite, or they do things that aren't nice, you know, that aren't kind or good or. And there's the. Either the assumption that's you. And so, you know, I've gotten letters. One of my novels had a woman protagonist who is married and having three simultaneous love affairs at the same time. She's busy. And I had some woman write to me, and she said, well, I hope your husband's left you. And at that time, I wasn't married, you know, or people just say, you know, reviews or something. I hated this person because they did this or that. And I think I almost hate those more than the person hating me. But what I hate about the person or people who don't like me because of it is that you're making this assumption that this is me, and it's a wrong assumption.

[Eddie Hood]

Yeah.

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

And then you. If that's what you want, then read memoir. Don't read.

[Eddie Hood]

See, and that's. That's an educational thing I want to get across to everybody listening right now is that fiction is a story designed to help us understand the human condition. And there are many versions of the human condition. Some people are better than other people. But we all have our good bad moments and our bad moments. And if Benny only wrote about the good people and the good moments, we would be bored out of our mind.

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

Would be bored out of her mind.

[Eddie Hood]

Right. And so when you all read books, please try to remember that these stories are not platforms for the authors to, like, slam specific person or be misogynistic or be racist or whatever it is. Right. Some people in the world are misogynistic. Some people are racist. And those people need to be in the book if it's going to be a good representation of this thing we call life.

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

Right. And the author needs to be true to the characters.

[Eddie Hood]

Yeah.

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

And not make them necessarily socially acceptable. Or nice. If this. Yeah. You know, if this person's a racist and they're going to be racist, then you can't. You know, certainly that's not. Because that's maybe big part of the point of what you're writing.

[Eddie Hood]

Yeah. And if that character were to be in a situation that would make him or her racist, and instead of saying what he or she would say, he. That person says, oh, shucky darn right. That doesn't cross.

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

Yeah, yeah.

[Eddie Hood]

That's not what they say in the real world. Yeah.

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

You have to be true to them. You want them to be real.

[Eddie Hood]

Exactly, exactly. And so I think one of the things we can do as readers is look for the authors who are willing to try and reflect all of those people as accurately as possible. Right. Because that's what it means to be a human. Not everybody's like me, not everybody's like Benny, not everybody's like you. Listening. We're all different, so we need to be open to that. Yeah, it's good. Well, Benny, I really appreciate you spending time with me today. I really enjoyed sending me a copy of your book. Yeah, I enjoyed this. For everybody listening, thank you so much for joining us in the conversation today. And if you get a chance, where's the best place to pick up your book, Vinnie?

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

Well, I always like people to support their indie bookstores. So if you have a local one them. And there's also indie bound online. There's a few other indie places online too. I usually go to them. Or. Yeah, support your local bookstore.

[Eddie Hood]

Yep, absolutely. I love that. Excellent. Okay.

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

But it's on Amazon and all those places too.

[Eddie Hood]

But yeah, that. Yeah, Amazon. Bleh. That's a swear word. But it's okay. It's fine.

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

Yeah, you can go to your indie store.

[Eddie Hood]

Yeah, thank you for mentioning the indie stores, actually. That's good. It's hard because, sure, you can save $3 by getting your book on Amazon, but how often do you spend $3 just buy the book at the indie bookstore. Right. Give them a lot.

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

Yes, support them. They need the business.

[Eddie Hood]

You know, Amazon's got enough money.

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

Yeah, sure. And you may want to support our local business.

[Eddie Hood]

Yeah.

[Binny Kirstenbaum]

And that's a good one to support. Every place should have a nice, good bookstore. So thus they keep them in business.

[Eddie Hood]

Yeah, I agree. Well, thank you for being on the show this week, Benny. And I just want to remind everybody, listening as always, to read slowly, take notes, notify the ideas. I'll see you all next time. Thanks for listening. If you'd like to take your reading to the next level, then head on over to thereadwellpodcast.com there you'll find daily posts on how to read well. You'll also get access to all of my book notes and tools for becoming a better reader. And as always, don't forget to read slowly, take notes and apply the ideas. Thank you for listening to the Read well podcast.