The Real Killer Season 3: Ep. 16, The Perfect Case

Summary

The Real Killer: Season 3, Episode 16 – "The Perfect Case"

Release Date: May 8, 2025

Overview

In the gripping sixteenth episode of Season 3 of The Real Killer, investigative journalist Leah Rothman delves deeper into the perplexing 1997 murder case of 18-year-old Anastasia WitbolsFeugen. Titled "The Perfect Case," this episode confronts lingering questions and controversies surrounding Byron Case's conviction. As the podcast approaches its finale, Rothman engages directly with Byron and his legal team, dissecting inconsistencies in testimonies, scrutinizing evidence, and challenging the narratives that have long dominated public perception.

Key Discussions and Insights

1. Addressing Legal Challenges

   The episode begins with Leah Rothman addressing a recent conflict with Byron's legal team regarding discrepancies in previous podcast episodes, specifically the "Littering Case" involving Kelly Moffatt.

   Leah Rothman [02:48]: "I've never lost sight that this whole podcast and investigation is an attempt to get to the Truth about what happened to Anastasia."

2. Interview with Byron Case

   Rothman conducts a revealing interview with Byron Case, accompanied by his lead attorney, Brian Russell. The discussion centers on Kelly Moffatt's credibility and the validity of her claims against Byron.

   • Kelly's Allegations: Kelly accuses Byron of murdering Anastasia, asserting she witnessed the act and claims Byron threatened her life simultaneously.

   • Byron's Defense: Byron vehemently denies all accusations, emphasizing the lack of physical evidence and challenging the reliability of Kelly's statements.

   Byron Case [09:35]: "She wants people to believe her... she really didn't use that to her advantage much."

3. Dissecting Kelly Moffatt's Testimonies

   A significant portion of the episode scrutinizes Kelly Moffatt's various testimonies over the years, highlighting inconsistencies and alleged fabrications.

   • Stun Gun Incident: Kelly claims Byron had a stun gun attached to his car and used it to assault a homeless individual, a story Byron refutes.

     Byron Case [18:21]: "I have absolutely no recall of anything like that happening."

   • Necrophilia Claims: Kelly accuses Byron of disturbing acts post-murder, which Byron categorically denies, labeling the accusations as "absurd."

     Leah Rothman [29:57]: "No, absolutely not."

   • Planned Murder of Byron’s Father: Kelly alleges a conspiracy to kill Byron's father to spare him from a prolonged death, a claim Byron finds reprehensible and baseless.

     Leah Rothman [32:03]: "That plan never existed...It's just more bullshit."

4. Timeline Discrepancies

   The episode highlights conflicting timelines presented by various witnesses, complicating the narrative of the events leading to Anastasia's death.

   • Anastasia's Movement: Discrepancies arise regarding Anastasia's whereabouts on the night of October 22nd, with conflicting accounts of her being at Dairy Queen, Mount Washington Cemetery, and her subsequent movements.

     Byron Case [48:18]: "Rush hour. Yeah, it was rush hour on a Wednesday."

   • Clothing Inconsistencies: Witnesses provide varying descriptions of Anastasia's attire, raising questions about the accuracy of their memories.

     Byron Case [75:10]: "And in terms of memory...They talked. It seems like they talked about borrowing."

5. Forensic Evidence and Physical Clues

   The podcast delves into the forensic findings, questioning the absence of the murder weapon and the implications of Anastasia's biological evidence.

   • Absence of Gun at the Scene: Despite the violent nature of the crime, no firearm was found at the location, fueling theories of a staged scene or evidence tampering.

     Ryan Reynolds [84:45]: "Plus, it would have...the energy from the gunshot could disperse."

   • Blood Evidence: Discussions revolve around the presence of menstrual blood and what it indicates about the timeline and events post-assault.

     Danielle Fishel [85:25]: "No matter what she was wearing, there should be some blood on it."

6. Legal Implications and Brady Violations

   Byron's legal team emphasizes procedural missteps during his trial, particularly the failure to disclose Kelly's criminal history, which is a significant Brady violation.

   Byron Case [110:31]: "What she did was try to rely on the fact that the investigation was stupid and botched."

7. Eyewitness Reliability and Memory Malleability

   The reliability of eyewitness testimonies is a recurring theme, with Rothman and Byron's team challenging the accuracy of witnesses like Dawn Wright and Bob Whitbowl's accounts.

   Danielle Fishel [75:43]: "Solomon Sollitt backs up Dawn Wright and says that whatever Dawn said Anastasia was wearing is what she was wearing."

8. Concluding Perspectives

   As the episode nears its end, all parties reiterate their stances:

   • Byron and His Team: Maintain Byron's innocence, citing lack of evidence and questioning the integrity of key witnesses.

   • Rothman’s Investigation: Continues to sift through evidence, emphasizing the need for logical consistency and factual accuracy over sensational claims.

   Ryan Reynolds [112:59]: "Yeah, I believe Byron is actually innocent."

Notable Quotes

• Leah Rothman [35:01]: "I refuse, both morally and constitutionally, I will not do the same because I don't know..."

• Byron Case [26:55]: "That's all I have to say about that."

• Ryan Reynolds [86:36]: "But I don't think it's inconceivable that when the bullet passed through her head, that it deflected part of that material out..."

• Danielle Fishel [115:42]: "I believe Byron is innocent because I've done the investigation."

Conclusion

"The Perfect Case" serves as a pivotal episode in The Real Killer series, intensifying the scrutiny on Byron Case's conviction and the pivotal role of Kelly Moffatt's testimonies. Through meticulous examination of timelines, witness reliability, and forensic evidence, Leah Rothman presents a compelling narrative that challenges established beliefs. As the season closes, listeners are left contemplating the complexities of justice, the fallibility of memory, and the enduring quest for truth in the face of conflicting narratives.

For Listeners

If you're eager to uncover more about this case and the journey towards justice for Anastasia WitbolsFeugen, ensure you subscribe to The Real Killer on your preferred podcast platform. Follow the podcast on Instagram and TikTok for updates and behind-the-scenes insights.

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Note: This summary excludes all advertisements, intros, outros, and non-content sections to focus solely on the substantive discussions of the episode.

Transcript

[Danielle Fishel]

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[Ryan Reynolds]

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[Leah Rothman]

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[Ryan Reynolds]

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[Howie Mandel]

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[Byron Case]

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[Ryan Reynolds]

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[Byron Case]

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[Danielle Fishel]

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[Byron Case]

Learn [e-mail] A warning this episode contains depictions of violence and conversations about suicide that may be disturbing and triggering for some listeners. If you are struggling with suicidal thoughts, please fast forward to the end of this episode to find out where help is available. So I've been working on this for more than a year and you know, like, I have questions. Some people wrote in, they had a lot of questions and theories and thoughts.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah, you've never been afraid of hard questions because they do force us to take a look at our case.

[Byron Case]

As this season is about to come to an end, there are still so many unanswered questions. And especially since the podcast has come out, I've gone back into the transcripts. I've gone back to like, is there anything that I've missed? I'm Leah Rothman. This is the real killer. Episode 16 the Perfect Case before we can move forward with our finale, I need to address something that's happened since our last episode. Two days ago, I received an email from Byron's lead attorney Brian Russell, on behalf of himself and the rest of the legal team about last week's Littering case episode. It began in part like this quote We've finally digested last week's podcast and are disappointed in how you decided to approach the discrepancy with Kelly's misdemeanor. We've been nothing but open, honest and straightforward with you, and we are baffled by this 180 in your tone and attitude toward us, we've never concealed or obfuscated the fact that Kelly's ticket on casenet had another case number belonging to Brendan. Brian continues throughout our work on this case, we believed that Kelly's sentence of 48 hour shock time, 30 days in jail, and two years probation with the suspended execution of that sentence was accurate. Because the charge was a Class A misdemeanor, she had skipped her court date and only appeared when picked up on a warrant. We believed that any discrepancy was the portion of the docket that says that Kelly's sentence was, quote, consecutive with case number. Brian continues. That's why we're confused when you said this was a new development that had kept you up all night. Brian goes on to say how in at least a few documents and filings, which they had shared with me dating back to late 2023, this other case number was mentioned in the footnotes. He says, I never asked about it. Then Brian says there was a timeline they shared where in the notes section this other case number was mentioned. He says, I never asked about it. He also points out that there were emails exchanged where I had questions about Kelly's docket and I never asked about it then either. Brian wrote that I had plenty of time and opportunity to bring this discrepancy up to them. He's right. Except the reason I never, ever asked them about it was because in the thousands of pages I alone have had to go through, I never saw it. Had I seen it, I would have asked about it long ago. Had I seen it, the way we presented Kelly's littering case when it first came up in episode seven would have been very different. Again, I'm sorry, but I never saw it. The last line in Brian's email reads, quote, when I said I hoped you didn't feel misled, I should have been clearer. We did not mislead you. We did not hide anything from you. We did not misrepresent anything to you. We were open, honest, upfront, and answered all of your questions to the best of our ability in a complicated and fact intensive case. I remain proud of our team and the work that we've done to help free an innocent man who was deprived of a fair trial. Let me be very clear. Byron's legal team has been open, honest and very available to answer all of my questions all along the way. And I'm grateful for that. And I never said they misled me. I was just surprised that they knew about this other case number. And in all of the times we'd spoken about the docket, it never came up. But whether or not they knew about it is not the issue. The reason I needed to interview them about the discrepancy was first, because I simply needed to ask them about this other docket number since, again, I had never seen it before. And second, I needed to share with the listeners and Byron's team that considering this other case number, I now cannot confidently say that that was in fact Kelly's sentence. And it needed to be addressed because I gave a platform for the theory that that was Kelly's sentence, which meant she might have been in some bigger trouble and in turn might have cooperated with prosecutors in the case against Byron. I know that Byron's legal team 100% believes that's Kelly's sentence, and hell, who knows, it might just be. Kelly says it isn't. Without proof, I just don't know either way. Okay, as we are about to begin our last episode, I want to acknowledge that even with all of the left turns that have happened so far, we have never lost sight that this whole podcast and investigation is in an attempt to get to the Truth about what happened to Anastasia. Now stay with me because we are not going to go chronologically. We are going to start with my most recent interview with Byron which took place after both of Kelly's episodes came out. Byron's lead attorney, Brian Russell wanted to be on the call. So that day Brian and I speak for a few minutes before Byron calls in.

[Leah Rothman]

Hey Leah.

[Byron Case]

Hi. How are you?

[Leah Rothman]

Good, how's it going?

[Byron Case]

Good, good, good. Just so you know, I am. Brian says there was so much in Kelly's interview that confirms for him she lied back when she came forward and she's still lying today. Brian says Kelly conveniently doesn't remember key things. Then other times comes up with wild new details like a three way call that happened between her, Byron and Justin that night after Anastasia was murdered. Brian says that didn't happen. What do you make of the level of conviction that she has when she says Byron killed Anastasia and she knows it, he knows it. What do you make of that?

[Ryan Reynolds]

I mean, I make of it that.

[Leah Rothman]

She wants people to believe her. And then I also think, I mean.

[Ryan Reynolds]

She'S admitted to having major problems with.

[Leah Rothman]

Crack cocaine and methamphetamine. Both of those drugs affect your brain.

[Ryan Reynolds]

In a way that can lead to.

[Leah Rothman]

Psychosis which can lead to the creation of false memories. So given where she was when she came forward with this story, maybe she does believe it. Maybe, maybe in her mind these are actual memories that she has created. Right. But none of them line up with any physical fact or any other person that can support her story, any element of it. We don't need to. I don't care why Kelly lies. I just know that she lied. Right.

[Ryan Reynolds]

I just know that her story isn't true because of the physical evidence.

[Leah Rothman]

Oh, here we go. Okay, hold on just a sec.

[Byron Case]

Then Byron calls in.

[Leah Rothman]

Okay. Leah, are you there?

[Byron Case]

I'm here.

[Leah Rothman]

Okay.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Byron, are you there?

[Leah Rothman]

Yes, I am. Hi Leah.

[Byron Case]

Hi Byron. How are you?

[Leah Rothman]

Better than some people would like me to be, but yeah, no, it's always an under the circumstances kind of question. But yeah, I'm good, thanks.

[Byron Case]

So you've listened to the podcast? I mean, you emailed me, you've listened to the podcast. I mean this is a very big question right off the bat, but any, anything or anything that you want to say right off the bat?

[Leah Rothman]

I don't know, I think we kind of touched on this a little bit earlier when I first emailed you. I said that I was kind of withholding judgment and was sort of waiting, you know, for something, for some sort of Strong reaction, I guess, one way or the other or some way that I might contribute. And it never really materialized for me. So I think as the podcast went on and, you know, I heard more, there was a certain point where, you know, I was no longer able. So I actually haven't listened past, I think, seven. And so everything that I've gotten since then has been kind of secondhand. And it's interesting because, like, ever since that happened, it seems like that was really when things. It seems like that was when, for me at least, more interesting content started to come up. There was stuff that I had never heard before. You did interviews with people that, you know, that I had never necessarily even heard say certain things that they were saying. And so in a way, I was glad that I wasn't able to listen because some of that stuff was kind of upsetting and a reminder, I think, of how really, I guess I've lived in a bubble and, you know, it's not like it's been an echo chamber, but I'm, in a sense, I'm kind of protected from a lot of people's opinions as far as the case goes. And so it was kind of a return to a not very good place as far as that goes. You know, just being reminded of those people and their. And their opinions and, you know, some of the stuff that they said.

[Byron Case]

In your email, you said that you were waiting to listen to everything or waiting for the other shoe to drop. What was the other shoe like? What were you. What. What did you mean by the other shoe?

[Leah Rothman]

Just that's, I think this sort of latent streak of pessimism that I've got that was just sort of waiting for. For things to take an ugly turn. And just from the sound of it, Kelly's episodes were that turn, at least as far as I'm concerned. You know, I was, I'll be honest, I was initially a little bothered by the idea that she would come forward after all of the information had come in, after she had a chance to listen to all of the previous episodes and really get a bigger picture and a greater understanding of what was going on with the case and with things that I just, I know that she wasn't previously aware of, as far as, you know, factual. And so it was. I just. My sort of knee jerk reaction to that was to be a little angry, I guess, about just the. I guess giving her the platform to just sort of spout whatever she's gonna spout with this new information to her at. After she had time to formulate whatever she was going to formulate. And I don't know. And so that was sort of my reaction to that. I just felt it was a little, I don't know, I don't want to say unfair because that's not really. I don't know, that's not quite the right word for it.

[Byron Case]

Just so you know, that her not speaking. I asked her to listen to all of the episodes before making a decision on whether or not to talk. So it wasn't like she did that on her own. I said, because she was considering talking. And I just said just. Just wait and listen to all of the episodes and then make a decision one way or another. So just so you know, that's on me. That's on me.

[Leah Rothman]

Yeah. And I understand that, you know, you're trying to ensure that the person is going to have an understanding that this is not going to be just, you know, hit Kelly on and hit her with a bunch of accusations or whatever. I mean, it makes sense because, you know, you wanted her to see that you were coming in this with an even hand. But, you know, I think that the net effect was the same. I think that her having had an opportunity to hear all of that did give her, I think, a. A little bit better preparedness, I think, for some of the stuff and some of the directions that things were going to go. Although based on what I've heard, I mean, she really didn't use that to her advantage much.

[Byron Case]

Yeah, I mean, I don't. You said you haven't listened to the episodes yet, but I mean, to me, just at face value, didn't seem like somebody who had studied the podcast and came in with, you know, you know, perfect answers to questions. I mean, sure, it's meandering. It's all over the map. It didn't feel calculated to me. But. But that aside, I just want you to understand we move on. Now, I am a little meandering going between questions I have for Byron and asking him to respond to some of Kelly's allegations. Let's talk about why did. Why did Anastasia have a stun gun? You know, to the best of your knowledge.

[Leah Rothman]

Yeah, I was gonna say, I don't. I don't really know. I don't remember us ever talking about it as far as, like, reasons or anything. I don't even remember when she bought it or really or anything about it. I knew that she had one, but, you know, I also, again, I knew that Byron, or, excuse me, that Justin had one.

[Byron Case]

Did you have a stun gun?

[Leah Rothman]

I did yeah.

[Byron Case]

Why did you have one?

[Leah Rothman]

I bought it partly because they had them. And just for me personally, it seemed like not a bad idea to own one. The neighborhood that I lived in was not especially. I don't want to say it was a bad neighborhood, but it wasn't great. I lived around a lot of bars and clubs, and, you know, there was a bit of violence that would kind of sort of erupt here and there. Fights, assaults, muggings. I was mugged just down the street from my apartment one time at my point, you know, for like $10 in my wallet, you know, And I've been at one point beaten up just, I guess because I look different outside of a country in Western bar that was in that area. My three guys just attacked me. And, you know, so it seemed like not an unreasonable thing to have.

[Byron Case]

Okay, Tara, I'm sure you know this, but Tara told Sergeant Kilgore the story that all of you three, I think, tased a homeless guy were all there for the tasing of this homeless guy sitting on some steps. He was drunk in Westport. What. Why? What can you tell me about that?

[Leah Rothman]

I have absolutely no recall of anything like that happening. So I don't know where Tara got that from or what she was talking about.

[Byron Case]

What do you make of Anastasia's stun gun being found on her bed?

[Leah Rothman]

That's a good question, and I don't really have an answer. I can only wonder about it, and I. I'd rather not use this platform to speculate.

[Byron Case]

Okay. All right, let's talk about some of the stuff that Kelly said in her interview. So let's start with. Well, keeping with the homeless people in Westport, Kelly said that you paid an overweight homeless guy named Slug to do jumping jacks as a way to humiliate him. Did that happen? Why did you do that?

[Leah Rothman]

Okay, so this is, I think, a really good example of Kelly taking a seat of something and turning it into something else. What happened? There was a guy who also panhandled kind of in that area. And we, Justin, Anastasia and I. I don't remember if Kelly was there, but I know that the three of us at least were. And Justin had just bought some donuts, and we were walking down the street, he had a box of a dozen donuts. And we saw this guy, and he asked us for some spare change. And Justin said, well, none of us had any, that we were willing to come. And so Justin said that I'll give you a donut if you do some jumping jacks. And the guy readily Agreed and got up and did some jumping jacks and Justin let him have a donut. That it was one of those things where I really. I was not altogether comfortable with the situation, but I was still in a kind of, like, spur of the mullet way, amused by it. And of course, you know, not my proudest moment by any means, but, yeah, I mean, that is kind of happening.

[Byron Case]

Okay. Okay. So Kelly tells the story that you all went to that Mormon temple. You were dressed up as a priest, and you did this big tour of the church because there was a plan to kidnap, you know, the bishop or something and hold him for ransom money. But she says, you know, you spent this whole Saturday on this tour. And what can you tell me about that?

[Leah Rothman]

Yeah, we. We did take a tour to the RLDS temple on South Chrisler in Independence, Missouri. It's the State Spire Building. And I did go wearing a clerical shirt that I owned. You know, it was one of those. One of those things where it felt really transgressive. You know, we were feeling pretty, like, goofy and like we were really, just by being there, felt like we were doing something we probably shouldn't be. But it wasn't really a bad thing. But, you know, that was something that we definitely enjoyed doing. It was, you know, shocking or, you know, if it was like kind of pushing some boundaries, then we, as a. As a general rule, we were all for that sort of thing. As far as a plan, this actually came up at my trial briefly. They wanted to introduce something that Kelly had talked about this then, too, trying to say that we had. Justin Saja and I had a plan to blow up a church or take the president or whatever, the head of the church hostage or something. So I would say to that that we did have a plan in name only. We were sitting around one night and it became this ridiculous sort of thing. The plan in question called for us getting some C4 and having night vision goggles and stuff like that. Clearly, this was not an actual plan that anybody was going to carry out or anticipated. Plan carrying out.

[Byron Case]

Okay. I mean, I think that she uses that as an example of some of, like that and going to rob Justin's parents, that there were these plans that never came to fruition. So that when the plan came up to kill Anastasia, she didn't necessarily believe it because there had been so many crazy plans before that she didn't think it was anything that you guys would follow through with.

[Leah Rothman]

Okay.

[Byron Case]

Okay. She says that there was the night of October 22nd, and this was a new Detail that she shared with me on the night of October 22nd. There was a three way phone call that night after everyone was back home between you, Kelly and Justin. Was there a three way call that evening?

[Leah Rothman]

No, that's. No.

[Byron Case]

You never spoke with Justin that night?

[Leah Rothman]

No, he dropped me off at my place and I didn't speak with him until the next morning. Okay.

[Byron Case]

Kelly said that this was another new detail. She had told a story before where she said, like, how could you have killed her? Speaking about Anastasia, you know, you're a murderer. How do you feel about that? And you know, and the story had been. I'd heard this before. We'd all heard this before that she said that you said, I don't consider myself a murderer. Murderer doesn't feel bad. And I feel bad about what happened or something to that effect. But this time that she told the story, she said that you grabbed her by the neck. Neck and threw her or slammed her against the wall. Did that happen?

[Leah Rothman]

No. No. I never laid a hand on Kelly in any violent way. That's not in my character. I don't. That's just not me. Okay. And I, I just like to add briefly one thing. I think that when you say, oh, here's a new detail, I think really what you're saying is that here's some more bullshit. I just think, I don't know. It is so ridiculous to me, this idea that she just keeps piling on and piling on and that anybody believes her. If these were things that actually happened, these were things that were troubling her or whatever, she would have come out with them years ago. The time for unburdening was 2001. 2002. At this point, I feel like anybody giving any credibility whatsoever to anything she is saying that is quote unquote knew is beyond absurd.

[Byron Case]

Kelly also said that you had told other people like Abraham and Tara that you killed Anastasia. What do you have to say about that?

[Leah Rothman]

That's another great example of that. Again, you know, Brahm and Tara, while, you know, Tara's not with us anymore. She was not a person to mince words. And Brahm never was either. If they had something to say, if they knew something, they are so transparent. Tara was so transparent about everything. She didn't give anything in. This would have come out so long ago if it had actually happened. So that's all I have to say about that.

[Byron Case]

Okay. Kelly says that there was a time that you welded a pitchfork to your car and put a chicken carcass on it and drove around town. With that.

[Leah Rothman]

Yeah, that's actually kind of true. So, like I said, we were always into kind of transgressive stuff. I had a group of friends who. We all had these big old cars. And one of my friends was a welder and an artist. And he said, hey, you've had this car for a little while. Let's put something on it. And I said, okay, what have you got? And we went out to the garage and he got a pitchfork. And I said, absolutely not. And then my other friend was like, no, no, I think you have to do that. I think that's going to be the thing. So I consented and he welded the head of this ditchboard to the hood of my car. About a week or two later, I was over at my friend Robert's house and Abraham was there. And they had. Apparently they had thawed out an eight pound fryer chicken and had no intention of actually cooking. And while I was using the restroom, at one point, Rahm took the chicken out to the car and put it on the pitchfork. And then when I went to go leave that evening, I saw it there and was just like, oh, okay. Because it was another. We pranked each other all the time like this. All my friends that had these cars, we oftentimes would put food on them. And there was kind of a rule that you couldn't remove the food. You had to let the weather and animals carry it away. So I was stuck with a chicken stuck to the front of my car. And I know that a lot got made out of that. Calling it a chicken carcass, I think is one good example. It would have been dinner just like a week beforehand, but it was not sinister, it was just a goof.

[Byron Case]

The next two are a little uncomfortable, but I'm just going to ask you. So she also. Kelly also said that you participated in necrophilia.

[Leah Rothman]

I heard about this. I was, in a way, shocked and also disgusted. But also it's so outlandish that I had to laugh. It is so unbelievable. I just. I can't even fathom the idea of this unequivocally. No, no, absolutely not.

[Byron Case]

Did you ever say it to her as, like, you know, just.

[Leah Rothman]

I don't think I even. No, I don't think I've even joked about something like that. Like, I, I don't know, but I, I just, I. I really believe that that's something that she's just come up with on her own.

[Byron Case]

And you understand. I just have to. I mean, I have to give you a chance to respond to this. This stuff. Because she says it. She also said that you told her, and again, this is uncomfortable, but she also said that you told her the best way for you or the quickest way when you were masturbating was to do it over dead animals.

[Leah Rothman]

Yeah, that's absurd, too. Same reason. Maybe even more so. I don't know. It's hard to weigh those sorts of things. I love animals. Not in that way.

[Byron Case]

Okay, this one is definitely more serious. Kelly said that there was a plan to kill your father to basically keep him from having to die a very painful death or a prolonged death. And because, you know, he had hiv. What do you have to say about that? She tells a very specific story that you were going to lure your father out to, like, some cornfields in the middle of nowhere and say that you had, you know, car trouble, and while he was under the hood of the car, you were going to shoot him. What do you have to say about that?

[Leah Rothman]

There's a lot that I could probably say about that. But I'll say this. I do think it's interesting that these same or these two stories that she's concocted, one about a death that actually took place, and another about a death that she said was planned to take place, that they both kind of involved driving out somewhere to a secluded spot and shooting someone. I don't really know what to make about that other than, you know, it seems like it's just kind of a motif, I guess, that shows up in her imaginings. No, that plan never existed. The idea of that is reprehensible to me. I love my father, but the idea of putting him out of some imagined misery, that was not something I had a hard enough time really making. The decision of when the time came to take him off life support, that was incredibly difficult. And I would say the hardest decision I ever had to make. And to claim that that was something that I would do easily is disgusting. That plan never existed. That thought never entered my head. It's just more bullshit.

[Byron Case]

Another question I have is about the June 5th recorded phone call. There is a part. I mean, so much is made about the should or shouldn't. And we've already talked about why you didn't just say, what are you talking about? You know, you didn't deny it, but not about that part. My question is about. There's a part in the phone call where you say to her, just say you don't remember. Kelly says, don't you remember? You don't remember what we said at all. And you say, I do, but what is, what were you referring to there? And I know it's been a long time, but, you know, what is the I do. What is the story? I mean, what, what are you about to say there?

[Leah Rothman]

Oh, I have no idea. I, you know, that's, that conversation was 24 years ago. Whatever I might have had on my mind at that time and was about to say, I don't know.

[Byron Case]

Did you think that you were being recorded.

[Leah Rothman]

Again? I don't really remember the conversation. So. But no, I mean, I wouldn't, I don't believe that that ever would have crossed my mind.

[Byron Case]

What do you think happened that night?

[Leah Rothman]

I know that some things that I've, you know, learned over the years have inclined me to one theory or another. But here's the thing. I would argue that I'm sitting in prison today and have sat in prison since I was 22 years old, more than half a lifetime ago, from where I sit now, because people speculated and because people acted on theories or talked openly about theories without any supporting evidence, without anything backing up what they had to say, just based on feelings, supposition, suspicion, whatever you want to call it. And I refuse, both morally and constitutionally, I will not do the same because I don't know, looking forward, you know, what those things that I speculated out might be construed as or what they might do to somebody else, I, I just, I, I can't do that. And so I've basically resigned myself to ignorance until more comes in, until I have something like really substantive, until I have something that says, oh, we, we now know X, Y and Z. I understand.

[Byron Case]

Is there anything else you think I should know or you want the listeners to know or anything you want to say that I haven't asked?

[Leah Rothman]

Thinking I think the big takeaway here for anybody listening, really, it's just that there is a lot of information in this case. There's a lot of stuff to have to sift through in order to come to anything like a reasoned conclusion about what happened or at least a reasoned conclusion about whether or not I had anything to do with it. But I think that if you pay attention, if you're really like looking at fact, really paying attention is going to come away with a pretty clear picture that Kelly is absolutely full of shit. She is a very, very troubled person. I think more so now than even when I knew her, but that, you know, really it just comes down to not so much what she says today or, or even really some of the more exaggerated or over the top stuff that she said years ago. It just comes down to whether or not it matches what we know to be fact. And that's, I guess what I would encourage everybody to look at what we know to be fact. When you see that it has absolutely nothing to do with me, that all those facts point away from me, I think the decision is pretty easy to make as far as whether or not you think I have any duty realizations. Though.

[Ice Cube]

The reviews and ratings are in and Ice Cube's Big Three is the surprise hit of the summer. This Saturday, 4pm Eastern on CBS, with playoff elimination on the line, the stars will be flocking into Los Angeles to witness the most physical, fiercest and competitive basketball in the world. Miami's Michael Beasley and Lance Stevenson must win over Houston to make the playoffs, reeling from last week's savage beating at the hands of Chicago's possessed Montrez Harrell. Last time these teams met, Miami beat Houston, but they are a dangerous team having their manhood at stake. Then breakout star Dwight Howard of the LA Riot will battle Gary Payton's Boston squad in a duoda match match for both teams will LA avenge their previous shocking loss to perennial basketball Boston rivals? To survive, six teams are allowed for four spots and all must win. Don't miss the Big Three, the three on three basketball league everyone is talking about. There's no crying in the big three and the no hold spot action starts Saturday at 4pm Eastern, 1pm Pacific, followed by two games on Vice starting at 6:30 Eastern.

[Howie Mandel]

Presented by iheart There's a part of me that everyone sees. I'm Howie Mandel, the comedian. Apparently I know what funny is. Funny bought me a house. But I also know what isn't funny. Ocd. I've lived with OCD my entire life and people throw the term around like it's no big deal. But OCD is severe, often debilitating. It's a mental health condition that involves unrelented, unwanted thoughts that can make you question your character, your beliefs, even your safety. General therapy can help with some things, but for ocd, it can actually make things worse. That's why I want to tell you about no cd, no CDC is the world's largest treatment provider for OCD and is covered by Insurance for over 155 million Americans. Their licensed therapists specialize in ERP, the most effective treatment for OCD. If you think you might be struggling with OCD, go to nocd.com to book a free 15 minute call. They are here to help if you.

[Christina Quinn]

Eat too many ultra processed foods you could be starving your gut microbes and they'll get hangry. That's one of many things I learned after working on a new audio course about the gut microbiome. You can learn how to keep your gut happy by listening to Try this from the Washington Post. I'm Christina Quinn. I host Try this. Dig in with me on practical advice for life's common challenges. Follow. Try this right now, wherever you're listening. Seriously, try it.

[Unknown]

Shout out to Sonos for supporting today's show at home. Whether I'm watching Monday Night Football or I'm flipping between all the games on Sunday, sound quality matters. And this is where Sonos comes in. Their speakers bring your sports experience and entertainment to life. So whether it's in your own home there, or you are out streaming music wherever you might be in your headphones, Sonos is the company for you. Sonos makes it easy to bring all your entertainment into every room in your home with their home theater speaker system. It's amazing. You want to feel like you're in the game. Every crowd moment, every hit. So no speakers. That's the way to do it. Home theater, cinematic sound. You want to bring those films to the next level. Guess what? That's how you do it. You have the Ace headphones too. Amazing sound quality with crystal clear highs and powerful bass. You don't just hear the content in those headphones, you feel it. Trust me, I've got a pair. I know what I'm talking about. And you get up to 30 hours of battery, 3 hours of playback with a quick 3 minute charge. It doesn't get better than that. So if you're serious about great sound for football, podcasts or music, you've got to check out Sonos. Visit sonos.com to learn more and explore the full Sonos lineup.

[Byron Case]

So now going back in time. The morning after I interviewed Kelly in Kansas City, I met with Byron's legal team at Brian Russell's law offices for what was supposed to be our final interview. And obviously this was before both of Kelly's episodes came out and the whole littering case thing happened. The entire team was there, including Brian, Nicole Gordon, Sean o' Brien and Quinn o'. Brien. Their paralegal Jenna was there too, because I had four microphones for the five of us. Quinn and Nicole share one. Okay, so we'll just go around the table. Have you been listening to the podcast? And if so, Sean, what is standing out to you? Any new revelations? What? What has stood out to you?

[Unknown]

I have been listening to the podcast I read the transcript of Kelly Moffatt's ride along with Kilgore, where she goes to Lincoln Cemetery. And it's one thing to see it in a transcript, but that's one tape I had never listened to. She has never been to Lincoln Cemetery, and that's very clear. She can't pick out the. You know, where the. Where Anastasia was found. But if you've been to Lincoln Cemetery and you knew where she had been, you would never miss that. It's impossible to miss. She also said that she could see headlights going by. And if you've been to Lincoln Cemetery, you also know that is impossible. So that's the one thing that stands out to me. And then listening to what other people say, you know, there are a couple people who say they believe Kelly, but they believe Kelly because Kelly is such a good liar. The only way to know whether Kelly's lying or not is to look at what she says and find something in the outside world that would say that's truthful. There's only one statement where you can do that, the one where Anastasia got out of the car. Don Rand says that happened. Bob Whitbowl's Hugin says that happened. At least three other unnamed witnesses that were hidden from us say that happened. The physical evidence says that happened. And so the one truthful statement is her first one, and that's really clear. And I think the podcast kind of makes that point. So to me, it's how well does the lawyer at the trial take on those issues and expose credibility where it needs to be? The other thing we know about Kelly is that she is a drug addict, an addict's lie. It's just a fact of life.

[Leah Rothman]

We don't need to go.

[Byron Case]

Here's Brian.

[Ryan Reynolds]

What I found interesting about the podcast is just to hear a story told through someone else that we've been working on and trying to figure out for several years at this point. And so it's really a lot of people on the team and past members of the team would tell you that, you know, when we're working on this case, you keep waiting for, well, wait, he was convicted. There must be more evidence than just Kelly and the tape. And he would keep waiting for something to come out, somebody else to say, well, actually, I knew this about Byron, or I saw this thing happen, and it never happens. It's always, byron was a decent guy. Yeah, he was. He could come across as weird or whatever. But even this past, within the past week, we've gotten other people that come forward with statements for Us saying I was in need and Byron helped me. He was the only person to help me. You know, I think that that person.

[Byron Case]

Brian is referring to is a woman named Kim Yeoman. She's written to me too, wanting me to know that Byron is a good person incapable of committing a crime like murder. She said during some of her darkest days, when she was a homeless teen living in abandoned houses in Kansas City, Byron would bring her food and was just a kind, generous, safe, trustworthy person to be around. Kim wanted me to know that she has reviewed many court documents and she has found no credible evidence linking Byron to Anastasia's murder. She believes Byron is innocent. Here's Nicole. I would say that there are a lot of nuances to the story that didn't get told just because there's not enough time. The one that I would point out would be the timeline. I always go back to the timeline. Anastasia called Justin's apartment from the Dairy Queen and we know that because she came back inside and told Dawn Wright that her boyfriend didn't want to pick her up because he'd already made plans with his best friend. Anastasia could have made that call to Justin had Justin, Kelly and Byron been on their way to pick her up at Dairy Queen from Lenexa. So it's the little things like that that are weaved throughout the entire case that let me know in the beginning and even today and even as I hear you tell the story. Yeah. That, you know, it just confirms what the facts say. Right.

[Ryan Reynolds]

How is. Because as we're working on the habeas and laying that timeline back out again for the umpteenth time, according to Kelly's story and her timeline, the fabricated timeline, they pick her up. Byron and Justin pick her up at her place at 4 o'.

[Byron Case]

Clock.

[Ryan Reynolds]

They go straight to the gas station where she calls Anastasia and this is at 4:15, 4:30. And she says, I spoke to Anastasia then. And Anastasia says, where are we meeting? And Kelly says, at the Dairy Queen. Well, according to Diane and Fran, Anastasia was already on her way to Mount Washington or at Mount Washington when Kelly says she's making that phone call and.

[Byron Case]

Stayed at Mount Washington for an hour.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Right.

[Byron Case]

Waited for an hour and told a couple test driving a car in the cemetery. Sorry.

[Ryan Reynolds]

No, that's okay.

[Byron Case]

A couple who was test driving a car in the cemetery. They stopped her and they said, the cemetery is about to close. It's chilly. So they were checking on her and they said, you know, just to let you know. And she said, that's okay. I'm waiting for my boyfriend. And that was an hour after she was dropped off.

[Ryan Reynolds]

And she's in Mount Washington.

[Byron Case]

Why would she go to Mount Washington? It's the LePages. It's the LePages. And she asked what time it was because she was supposed to be meeting her boyfriend.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yes.

[Ryan Reynolds]

And they say 5:30.

[Leah Rothman]

Right.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Which. And then back to Kelly's fabrication. So we make this phone call then, according to Kelly. Well, we make this phone. I make this phone call to, quote, unquote, lure Anastasia out. Again, there's so many things that it's hard to keep track of them all, because not only was this not a phone call to lure Anastasia out, Anastasia already had plans with Justin that day. Her stepmom talked about it. Franz talked about it. And so then. Then Kelly says after I, quote, unquote, lure her out, we go straight from Lenexa. We go straight from Lenexa to Dairy Queen and Independence, which she estimates would take 45 minutes, maybe closer to 30 minutes.

[Byron Case]

Rush hour. Yeah, it was rush hour on a Wednesday.

[Ryan Reynolds]

So they get there at what, 5:15, 5:30. According to Kelly's story, again, Anastasia's still in Mount Washington talking to the lepages at that time. So again, Kelly's story is false. That also conflicts with what Dawn Wright and Suleiman Sollitt said, which was they picked her up after dark. They picked up Anastasia up after dark. And like what Nicole was just saying, we know that Anastasia called Justin's apartment and talked to Justin. So Kelly's story doesn't account for that because she says, we went straight from the gas station to the Dairy Queen. Well, then how was Anastasia talking to Justin at his apartment? If you went straight from Dairy. From straight from the gas station to Dairy Queen with no stops.

[Byron Case]

And I understand because I have questions about the call that she made from the Phillips 66 station near her house.

[Leah Rothman]

Right.

[Byron Case]

Like, it has never made sense to me, based on Anastasia's plan to meet Justin at Mount Washington Cemetery, that she would have. That they would have needed Kelly to lure Anastasia to the Dairy Queen. It's never made sense to me. I asked her about that and she was like, I don't know. All I know is that I made a call and I spoke with Anastasia. So then my mind goes to, okay, well, could Anastasia. But then it messes with the timeframe. But could Anastasia have called from the Dairy Queen and left that phone number on Justin's answering machine, which had been erased. Some of those early messages were gone. Could they have called the answering machine? Found out where Anastasia was. And I have some of the trial or. I don't know if it's her deposition or the trial transcript, but she says that Anastasia believed that they were meeting at the Dairy Queen. That might have been the secondary plan.

[Leah Rothman]

Right.

[Byron Case]

The first plan I absolutely believe was Mount Washington.

[Leah Rothman]

Right.

[Byron Case]

Everyone knew it was Mount Washington. Betsy, Diane, Fran. Everyone knew they were meeting at Mount Washington. I wonder, and it's because I have to ask questions. But I wonder, did something change in that afternoon? Because then I was asking myself, did Kelly, assuming Kelly's telling the truth, did Kelly call and speak with Anastasia before Fran got home that day?

[Danielle Fishel]

Okay, so they're luring her out to be alone somewhere to kill her, but they changed the place where she's supposed to be alone to kill her by going through all these extra steps.

[Byron Case]

All I'm saying is I have to ask all these questions, right?

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah, sure.

[Byron Case]

So. And then I looked at what everyone said in terms of time. It seemed like Fran got home at 4. So I don't think that Kelly could have called before she got home.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Exactly.

[Byron Case]

So then I'm, like, crossing that off, you know, so. But I have to ask the questions. That's exactly how we work the case. And just a thought on what you're saying is that if the state didn't believe her story either, if they had, they would have needed. He wouldn't have needed her to record the conversation with Byron. I mean, she definitely had credibility issues because she was known to have lied. Right. So this phone call has never made sense to me. But maybe what happened was what prosecutors alleged at trial, that Anastasia had paged Byron from the Dairy Queen. And that's the number that was dialed for Kelly at the gas station. Again, law enforcement never pulled those payphone records from the gas station and the Dairy Queen.

[Ryan Reynolds]

When she gives that September 21st statement to Kilgore, he says, well, when you told me in your initial statement back In October of 1997, you seemed pretty confident about that story. And then even a few days later, I took you out to ride around, and you took me on a. You took me exactly. You took me where you said you guys went. And you seemed pretty confident about that. You even drew me a map, which, as an aside, wasn't and still has never been produced. We've never seen that map that Kelly drew in her initial statement. And she says, well, I was so confident because before we talked with you for the first time, Byron took me back out there and drove me around. Except that there was literally no time for that to happen because she was with her grandma all day the day that Anastasia's body was found on the 23rd, that evening. And she even admits in one of her statements that Byron's car was broken down. Her mom and Evelyn, Byron's mom had to give them rides everywhere. Evelyn had given Byron a ride to the Moffitt residence where they hung out that evening of the 23rd. And then on the morning of the 24th, Debbie Moffitt gives them a ride to the Jackson County Sheriff's Department to give their statement to Kilgore. So her story is just. It never. It didn't make sense and it shouldn't have made sense to the prosecutor's office and the sheriff's department if they were doing their job at the very beginning.

[Byron Case]

I reach out to Kelly with this question from Byron's legal team. When did Byron actually have the time to take her around to show her the area of Truman road and the i435? Kelly sends me a voice message answering this question. She says after Anastasia's murder was reported on the news the night of October 23, Byron drove her around so she could learn the area in case they had to speak with police.

[Danielle Fishel]

Afternoon we found out like on like the four or five o' clock news. And then I came to your house and stayed the night and that's when we made it a point to drive around and show me. This is just so irritating. I hate dealing with anything with him because he just. He's trying to rely on the fact that the investigation was stupid and botched and they didn't do a good job. He's trying to pick that apart and hoping to God that something sticks. He throws anything against the wall and sees if it. He gets people fighting over these like little tiny indiscret and stuff so that you don't look at the fact that he's fucking guilty as hell.

[Byron Case]

For the record, I was curious what was said about where exactly Kelly and Byron spent the night of October 23rd. At trial, Kelly said they spent the night at Byron's mom's apartment. She said the next morning her mom picked them up from Byron's and took them to the sheriff's department to be interviewed. In Byron's first interview, he said his mom dropped him and Kelly off at her house that night because he had to go in for a job interview that evening and Kelly came with him. No mention if they spent the night there though. So did they go to Byron's house after the job interview or did they stay At Kelly's, who knows where they spent the night. And if there had been time, like Kelly said, for Byron to show her around Truman road and the i435 that night. Back to Nicole in our interview, Kelly's not told the same story, not one time, not even for the state. And there have been big differences. I mean, we're not talking about minor changes or forgetfulness. There are just big differences in each of her stories that's unaccounted for. The state didn't account for them. And so for this state, for the state to say, we have looked into this again and we decided not to take the case because Kelly Moffatt stands by her story. Well, tell us which story that is. Nicole is referring to hearing former Jackson county prosecutor Gene Peters Baker in episode 11. Here's Quinn.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah, when I heard Gene Peters Baker on the podcast say, we have done the work, I wanted to throw my headphones off. They did not do the work. They didn't even read the work that.

[Unknown]

We gave them in our presentation. I promise you. All they did was read the trial transcript and call Kelly and ask her, if we called you as a witness again, would you say the same thing? And she said yes over the telephone is what she told him.

[Danielle Fishel]

Because what they want is a perfect case. They want the DNA to exclude the client. They want the DNA to match somebody else. They want a recantation from the eyewitness. They want all this, you know, perfect stuff. And if all of those things were true, someone never would have gotten convicted in the first place. I mean, they're looking for the perfect case, and it's never going to happen.

[Unknown]

But the only two things they told us to justify their decision not to reopen this case was, number one, that Kelly had not recanted, and number two, Kelly had not recanted. You know, it's like. And so, you know, and I was. I was. Was angry at this meeting, and they could probably tell it, but at the end of it, I said, so you have effectively made Kelly Moffett the gatekeeper for your Conviction Integrity Unit. Kelly Moffett has told you not to proceed on this, and you're not proceeding on this. That is essentially what they said. And so when you asked me, my reaction to your podcast. Podcast is great, but that episode really pissed me off.

[Ice Cube]

The reviews and ratings are in, and ice Cube's big three is the surprise hit of the summer. This Saturday, 4pm Eastern on CBS. With playoff elimination on the line, the stars will be flocking to Los Angeles to witness the most physical, fiercest and competitive basketball in the world, Miami's Michael Beasley and Lance Stevenson must win over Houston Houston to make the playoffs, reeling from last week's savage beating at the hands of Chicago's possessed Montrez Harrell. Last time these teams met, Miami beat Houston, but they are a dangerous team having their manhood at stake. Then breakout star Dwight Howard of the LA Riot will battle Gary Payton's Boston squad in a do or die match for both teams. Will LA avenge their previous shocking loss to perennial basketball Boston rivals? To survive, six teams are allowed for four spots and all must win. Don't miss the Big Three, the three on three basketball league everyone is talking about. There's no crying in the big three and the no hold spot action starts Saturday at 4pm Eastern, 1pm Pacific, followed by two games on Vice starting at 6:30 Eastern.

[Howie Mandel]

Presented by iheart there's the part of me that everyone sees. I'm Howie Mandel, the comedian. Apparently I know what funny is. Funny bought me a house. But I also know what isn't funny. Ocd. I've lived with OCD my entire life and people throw the term around like it's no big deal. But OCD is severe, often debilitating. It's a mental health condition that involves unrelented, unwanted thoughts that can make you question your character, your beliefs, even your safety. General therapy can help with some things, but for OCD, it can actually make things worse. That's why I want to tell you about no cd. NO CD is the world's largest treatment provider for OCD and is covered by Insurance for over 155 million Americans. Their licensed therapists specialize in ERP, the most effective treatment for OCD. If you think you might be struggling with OCD, go to nocd.com to book a free 15 minute call. They are here to help.

[Christina Quinn]

If you eat too many ultra processed foods, you could be starving your gut microbes and they'll get hangry. That's one of many things I learned after working on a new audio course about the gut microbiome. You can learn how to keep your gut happy by listening to Try this from the Washington Post. I'm Christina Quinn. I host Try this. Dig in with me on practical advice for life's common challenges. Follow Try this right now, wherever you're listening. Seriously, try it.

[Unknown]

Shout out to Sonos for supporting today's show at home. Whether I'm watching Monday Night Football or I'm flipping between all the games on Sunday, sound quality matters. And this is where Sonos comes in their speakers bring your sports experience and entertainment to life. So whether it's in your own home there, or you are out streaming music, wherever you might be in your headphones, Sonos is the company for you. Sonos makes it easy to bring all your entertainment into every room in your home with their home theater speaker system. It's amazing. You want to feel like you're in the game. Every crowd moment, every hit, Sonos speakers. That's the way to do it. Home theater, cinematic sound. You want to bring those films to the next level. Guess what? That's how you do it. You have the Ace headphones too. Amazing sound quality with crystal clear highs and powerful bass. You don't just hear the content in those headphones, you feel it. Trust me, I've got a pair. I know what I'm talking about. And you get up to 30 hours of battery, 3 hours of playback with a quick 3 minute charge. It doesn't get better than that. So if you're serious about great sound for football, podcast, podcasts, or music, you've got to check out Sonos. Visit sonos.com to learn more and explore the full Sonos lineup.

[Byron Case]

I continue my conversation with Byron's legal team. A quick reminder, this interview took place the day after my interview with Kelly. I asked her 14 pages of questions. A lot of it she couldn't remember because it's been. But to be fair, it's been 20 something years, right?

[Unknown]

Mark Twain says, if you always tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything.

[Byron Case]

Yeah, well, she remembers that Byron did it. One of the things that struck me that I had forgotten was that at trial she did not remember going to Abraham's. And even the prosecutor said, are you sure you didn't stop anywhere else, you know, after the killing, before going home? And she was like, no, not that I remember. So whatever that means. Back in 2002, at the trial, she didn't even remember stopping at Abraham's. And the prosecution very much believes that they stopped at Abraham's. Right, Correct. So, and I'm not making her case for her. I'm just saying there could be some things that she doesn't remember when she didn't even remember stopping at Abraham's back in 2002.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Well, she didn't. And she didn't remember it in 2000 when she gave her statement in her fabrication.

[Byron Case]

I asked her, did you guys go back to the house? She said, I don't know, I don't remember. So she left that open to the possibility that they may have gone back to the house.

[Unknown]

We knew she would do that.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah, of course.

[Unknown]

She has to.

[Ryan Reynolds]

She has to.

[Unknown]

She has to now. She has to change her story to fit the facts.

[Byron Case]

Couldn't it be drug brain? Couldn't it be. I mean, couldn't that have messed up some of her memory?

[Danielle Fishel]

It doesn't matter because the external facts still show that Kelly Moffatt isn't being truthful. I mean, we can sit here and talk about drug brain and memory and all sorts of scientific studies about, you know, how memory changes and what happens, but the fact is it can't be true because these other people who don't have a stake in this saw Kelly at different times. They saw Anastasia at the Dairy Queen. They saw Anastasia at the cemetery at 5. Like, all of these external witnesses disprove Kelly's story. So I'm saying that we can kick.

[Byron Case]

You know, some people wrote in talking about memory loss and how that can happen as a result of trauma, not just with drug use. Back to Quinn.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Danielle Fishel]

And I have empathy for Kelly, too. And in this story, Kelly gets to be the hero to Fran and Emma and Anastasia and the Whitbulls Hugan family. She gets to bring them closure. You know, listening to the podcast, I cried. Listening to Fran and Emma talk. They lost someone really special and really important to them, and Kelly gets to be their hero. I get that. You know, Kelly getting to play the hero in this story is really compelling, and she's made that part of who she is. And she has the gratitude of the Whipples Fugen family and the girls for providing them closure. I get why she did that. You know, she. Yes, she had to implicate herself to tell this story, but she was never at any risk, not ever. She came forward with an attorney who made an immunity deal for her before she even said one word on the record that would implicate herself. She was never at any risk ever. Not at any time. Yeah.

[Byron Case]

She says that she was basically made to come forward.

[Danielle Fishel]

She was.

[Byron Case]

And that when she came forward, there was no deal, no immunity promise. She had no idea what was going to happen to you.

[Unknown]

That's not true.

[Byron Case]

That's not true.

[Unknown]

That's not true.

[Byron Case]

That's a lie. When she came forward to the counselor, and then the counselor reached out to an attorney and, I mean, the prosecutor's office, she said at that point there was no deal.

[Unknown]

The documents show the deal was on the table before she made any statements to the police. The counselor is what locked in her story. The counselor called the prosecutor and essentially turned her in, forced her to tell a story, and then this is the story that she developed off the cuff.

[Byron Case]

I think what Kelly said is that when she told the counselor or was forced to tell the counselor, and the counselor said she was going to go contact the prosecutor's office about it, Kelly had no idea what was going to happen to her. She had no idea at that point she would eventually be given immunity. Right. Let's please talk about Anastasia's clothes and whether or not she might have gone home.

[Leah Rothman]

Home.

[Byron Case]

I know you very much believe she went home. This is my question about it. If we believe Fran's description of what Anastasia was wearing when she left the house, and I'm not supposed to give my opinions on anything, but I do believe that they had such a detailed conversation about the clothes. I do believe Fran knows what Anastasia was wearing that day. Fran seems very believable, and not just in the podcast where she gave a lot of details about it, but she seemed pretty clear in her early interviews that this is what Anastasia was wearing. So for Anastasia to leave the house, let's just call it black clothes. She leaves the house in black clothes. In order for Dawn Wright to see her in blue jeans and the socks and sandals, Anastasia would have had to go home before going to the Dairy Queen. So that's one change to then be at the Dairy Queen in the blue jeans, to then go home again to change out of the blue jeans into the black clothes to then later be killed in the black clothes. Please try to explain to me the whole thing is like, did Anastasia go home once? It would have meant she went home twice.

[Ryan Reynolds]

So I don't think, and this is all respect to Fran and you know, she was a 15 year old who just lost her sister. She didn't give a statement, though, for five days. I believe her first statement was October 28th. By that point in time, everybody knew what Anastasia was wearing when she was found. So I don't know that necessarily Fran's insistence of what she remembered Anastasia wearing wasn't somehow muddled by Bob telling her what she was wearing or what she was found in.

[Byron Case]

But we don't know that. We don't know that someone told her.

[Ryan Reynolds]

We don't know. But you can imagine that within a small family there and having just found, you know, that the trauma of what's going on. So, I mean, they were, I think that it's pretty clear that they were communicating with each other about how she was found. But I think another part of that is you have two competing Statements. Here you have what Fran believes she was wearing and what dawn says she was wearing. Fran saw Anastasia before she left for maybe 15 minutes, whereas dawn was with Anastasia for an hour to an hour and a half before she left. So she had simply more time to observe what she was wearing while she was at that Dairy Queen. And if Anastasia was wearing what Fran said she was wearing, there would have been blood on those clothes and in that underwear and on that pad at some point by the time she was found, when Anastasia's found, she's wearing clean everything. But because dawn says that she started her period in the Dairy Queen, we know that that means that whatever she was wearing at the Dairy Queen would have had blood on it somewhere. And none of that was found.

[Danielle Fishel]

And I'd just like to point out that if Detective Kilgore had asked Solomon Soulat for security footage, Solomon Soulat had that and was ready to provide it to the police, was never asked for it. So we would know all of this for sure. We would know the timeline for sure. We would know what Anastasia was wearing for sure. If Kilgore had just bothered to ask if Solomon Soulett had security footage.

[Byron Case]

Does that video still exist?

[Leah Rothman]

No.

[Danielle Fishel]

I've spoken to Mr. Sillat, and he got rid of it a long time ago. The Dairy Queen was in a fire. He eventually sold it to some other business. It's now like an auto shop.

[Byron Case]

Because so much has been said about Sergeant Gary Kilgore and what he did and didn't do during his investigation, I reached back out to him again to see if he's been listening and if he has anything he wants to say. He has not returned my calls. Here's Sean.

[Unknown]

So at the time that Fran made these observations, she did not know that her sister was going to make murdered that night. And memory is very malleable. And so I think Fran is remembering what she usually saw Anastasia wear. The other piece of it is the purse or the wallet. And how does Dawn Wright know to describe a wallet that Bob Whitbows Fugan finds that evening? You know, you know, on the stairway at their home. And then he texts a picture of it and the picture as an email. Right. Different wallet.

[Danielle Fishel]

I'm not sure it is, though, because.

[Byron Case]

Well, I mean, as a trifold wallet, like.

[Danielle Fishel]

Okay, okay, gotcha.

[Unknown]

Okay. But, yeah, but there is the purse that he sent.

[Byron Case]

Yeah, and that's also something that I think wasn't pointed out in the podcast or made note of.

[Leah Rothman]

The.

[Byron Case]

The purse that Don describes is like a wallet on A long strap and it's not a usual size purse. And then Bob sends a picture of that type of purse. Exactly. For the record, in episode two, we do share Dawn Wright's exact description of the purse she said she saw Anastasia carrying that night. Let me ask you a couple follow up questions. Yeah. So Anastasia was found with $3.65 in her pants pocket. If she had that money on her. She did have that money on her. Why would that not be in her purse or wallet if she was carrying something that night?

[Danielle Fishel]

Because she changed pants and that was money that was in her pants before she put them on.

[Byron Case]

And she went home, had the purse the entire time.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah, she went home and left the purse.

[Unknown]

She left the purse.

[Byron Case]

She was taking her money out of.

[Danielle Fishel]

The purse, put it in her pocket.

[Byron Case]

She typically didn't carry a purse. Right. She typically didn't carry a purse.

[Danielle Fishel]

Oh, See, I think. I think I call that magic money. When you put your coat on that you haven't worn since last fall and you find three bucks in the pocket.

[Leah Rothman]

Right.

[Byron Case]

But we don't know. I mean, that's like.

[Danielle Fishel]

I don't know. It's just speculation. But there's a thousand explanations for it.

[Byron Case]

That's all.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah, there are multiple explanations for it.

[Byron Case]

It just.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Byron Case]

And in terms of memory, so one could make the argument that Dawn Wright. I mean, as we know, eyewitness testimony is often wrong.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Byron Case]

And she could have been wrong about Anastasia's clothes.

[Danielle Fishel]

Solomon Sollitt doesn't think so.

[Byron Case]

He doesn't describe what she's wearing.

[Danielle Fishel]

No, but he said that he was there when dawn was describing what she was wearing. And he didn't have any qualms or quibbles with it.

[Ryan Reynolds]

This is coming from a conversation.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah, sorry. I interviewed Solomon Salat separately. So this is stuff that you would not have been privy to yet because that just recently happened. He backs up Solomon Sollitt backs up Dawn Wright and says that whatever dawn said Anastasia was wearing is what she was wearing.

[Ryan Reynolds]

But you're correct that, I mean, of course anybody could be wrong about anything when we're talking about eyewitnessing, you know, things. That's why. That's why we go back to. Well, she was with her for longer than anybody else that night. She had more of a chance to see her and what she was wearing and take that in and remember it.

[Byron Case]

And no reason to lie.

[Ryan Reynolds]

No reason to lie. No. And, yeah.

[Unknown]

Yeah. And socks with sandals is really specific as opposed to she was wearing what she usually wore, you know, which begs.

[Byron Case]

The question isn't it odd that on this particular day Anastasia was supposedly seen wearing something people close to her said she never wore? Also, she was seen carrying a purse which her friends and family said she would never do. Why would Anastasia be seen in clothes so out of character for her? Also, they say Dawn Wright has no reason to lie. It might not have been a lie, just an honest mistake. Also, Fran has no reason to lie. Right. Fran was in that interview on 1028, very specific. Also about the black bra. You know, she. They had a conversation about clothes. It wasn't just like she saw Anastasia leaving in these clothes and there was no. They actually had a conversation about borrowing. And like, so what do you make of that? I mean, I think it's a little bit more than just she may or Fran may have been incorrect because it's what Anastasia often wore. They talked. They talked. It seems like they talked about it.

[Danielle Fishel]

They probably did have an argument, which is why Anastasia settled on socks with sandals instead of Fran's Doc Martens at that time.

[Unknown]

And I could see later in the evening when she went out a second time that her feet were probably cold.

[Ryan Reynolds]

I'm wearing these.

[Danielle Fishel]

Her sister wasn't there to argue anymore, so she could take her sister's Doc Martens and her sister wasn't there to fight her about it.

[Byron Case]

So let's talk about the pad versus tampon thing for a second because as we know, Dawn Wright first said it was a pad, then at trial she changed it to a tampon. Kilgore found a box of tampons in Anastasia's room. One could deduce. I'm not saying I'm right, but one could deduce that that's what Anastasia used. So how? If Dawn Wright actually gave her a tampon, how did she end up in a pad?

[Leah Rothman]

She went.

[Ice Cube]

The reviews and ratings are in. And ice Cube's big three is the surprise hit of the summer. This Saturday, 4pm Eastern on CBS. With playoff elimination on the line, the stars will be flocking to Los Angeles to witness the most physical, fiercest and competitive basketball in the world. Miami's Michael Beasley and Lance Stevenson must win over Houston to make the playoffs. Reeling from last week's savage competing at the hands of Chicago's possessed Montrez Harold. Last time these teams met, Miami beat Houston. But they are a dangerous team having their manhood at stake. Then breakout star Dwight Howard of the LA Riot will battle Gary Payton's Boston squad in a do or die match for both teams. Will LA avenge their previous shocking loss to perennial basketball Boston rivals. To survive, six teams are allowed for four spots and all must win. Don't miss the Big three, the three on three basketball league everyone is talking about. There's no crying in the big three and the no hold spot action starts Saturday at 4pm Eastern, 1pm Pacific, followed by two games on Vice starting at 6:30 Eastern. Presented by iHeart.

[Howie Mandel]

There's a part of me that everyone sees. I'm Howie Mandel, the comedian. Apparently I know what funny is. Funny bought me a house. But I also know what isn't funny. Ocd. I've lived with OCD my entire life and people throw the term around like it's no big deal. But OCD is severe, often debilitating. It's a mental health condition that involves unrelented unwanted thoughts that can make you question your character, your beliefs, even your safety. General therapy can help with some things, but for OCD it can actually make things worse. That's why I want to tell you about nocd. NOCD is the world's largest treatment provider for OCD and is covered by Insurance for over 155 million Americans. Their licensed therapists specialize in ERP, the most effective treatment for OCD. If you think you might struggling with OCD, go to nocd.com to book a free 15 minute call. They are here to help.

[Christina Quinn]

If you eat too many ultra processed foods, you could be starving your gut microbes and they'll get hangry. That's one of many things I learned after working on a new audio course about the gut microbiome. You can learn how to keep your gut happy by listening to Try this from the Washington Post. I'm Christina Quinn. I host Try this. Dig in with me on practical advice for life's common challenges Follow. Try this right now. Wherever you're listening. Seriously, try it.

[Unknown]

Shout out to Sonos for supporting today's show at home. Whether I'm watching Monday Night Football or I'm flipping between all the games on Sunday, sound quality matters. And this is where Sonos comes in. Their speakers bring your sports experience and entertainment to life. So whether it's in your own home there or you are out streaming music wherever you might be in your headphones, Sonos is the company for you. Sonos makes it easy to bring all your entertainment into every room in your home with their home theater speaker system. It's amazing. You want to feel like you're in the game. Every crowd moment, every hit Sonos speakers. That's the way to do it. Home theater Cinematic sound. You want to bring those films to the next level. Guess what? That's how you do it. You have the ACE headphones to amazing sound quality with crystal clear highs and powerful bass. You don't just hear the content in those headphones, you feel it. Trust me, I've got a pair. I know what I'm talking about. And you get up to 30 hours of battery, 3 hours of playback with a quick 3 minute charge. It doesn't get better than that. So if you're serious about great sound for football podcasts or music, you've got to check out Sonos. Visit sonos.com to learn more and explore the full Sonos lineup.

[Byron Case]

So how, if Dawn Wright actually gave her a tampon, how did she end up in a pad?

[Ryan Reynolds]

She went home.

[Byron Case]

But if that's not what she normally used. And why would you change? I mean, I don't know if you know this, like, once you. Sorry, I'm named, like, very graphic. But once you put one in, you don't need to change it. You don't have to.

[Danielle Fishel]

Sullivan Salat said that when he went in to change the trash in the employee bathroom, because that's the one that Anastasia used, there was a, you know, tampon trash in the garbage can and there was still blood in the toilet, which means that Anastasia is actively bleeding at this point. No matter what she was wearing, there should be some blood on it. So at some point she puts something clean on. And women know periods are unpredictable. Your flow can be heavy and light, depending on, you know, the second of the day and which direction the wind's blowing.

[Byron Case]

Okay, let me ask you this question. I mean, as you said, a period can start and stop, especially when the first few years, they're very. It's sporadic in the beginning. My question is, if Anastasia went from the Dairy Queen in a pad, just for the sake of argument, in a pad, to Mount Washington and then to Lincoln, where she was killed, there would be less time potentially for there to be anything on that pad. If she went home, changed into a pad, and then was killed hours, potentially hours later, wouldn't there be a greater likelihood that something would have ended up on that pad after that many hours of having on?

[Ryan Reynolds]

Well, there was no blood. There was no blood in her underwear either. And so if she went straight from Mount Washington, I mean, straight from Dairy Queen, Mount Washington, Lincoln Cemetery, even if the pad was clean and there wasn't an opportunity for her to bleed onto that, there still would have been blood on her underwear from when she started her period. And needed a Prada.

[Byron Case]

We're getting very intimate with each other. A woman can feel her period coming on before anything hits underwear. She could have gone. She could have said, I'm getting my period. Do you have anything? Gone to the bathroom. She could have sat down and stuff could have come into the toilet, and nothing ever ended up ending up on her underwear. It is a possibility. I think it's a.

[Danielle Fishel]

That's a stretch. That's a real stretch. I mean, if she's actively bleeding into the toilet such that the male manager of the restaurant notices that there's blood in the toilet and tampon. Trash in the trash can, there's probably blood on her underwear.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Plus, it would have. I think, that they did in her autopsy. Dr. Young did find menstrual blood in her vagina still.

[Byron Case]

Right.

[Ryan Reynolds]

And so.

[Leah Rothman]

Right.

[Danielle Fishel]

It's more plausible that she cleaned herself up and that after the initial period started that it slowed down or that she just wasn't upright as long as we thought between the time she returned home and the time that she was found. Or the time that she died in the cemetery.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Danielle Fishel]

Or if she died in the cemetery at all.

[Leah Rothman]

I know, Don't. Yeah, yeah.

[Byron Case]

But again, if she went home, put on different clothes and changed from a tampon to a pad, then was killed hours later, why wasn't there anything on the pad? More hours equals more time to bleed. Right. Let me ask you, following up on a couple of things you just said so because I know that the Kansas City police Crime lab came back and said that there is a possibility that she may have been lying down when she was killed. How do you explain a piece of her skull being up to a couple feet away?

[Ryan Reynolds]

I think that. I mean, gunshot wound is. There's a lot of energy that goes into it. And especially if you've got your. If someone's head is laying on the ground to reflect that energy, I don't think it's inconceivable that it could have deflected part of her skull off of the ground and out from underneath her head.

[Danielle Fishel]

Energy is neither created nor destroyed. We know this because of science. And so when it is perfectly reasonable to assume that her head came off the ground so that the energy from the gunshot could disperse. Just physics.

[Leah Rothman]

Yeah.

[Ryan Reynolds]

But I don't think it's inconceivable that when the bullet passed through her head, that it deflected part of that material out and out from underneath her head, because I believe it was about 4ft from the top of her head.

[Byron Case]

This seemed A bit far fetched. So I reached out to Dr. Bill Smock, who is an internationally recognized forensic expert in multiple fields, including but not limited to reconstruction of officer involved shootings and the forensic evaluation of gunshot wounds. Dr. Smock is also the police surgeon and directs the clinical forensic medicine program for the Louisville Metro Police Department in Louisville, Kentucky. He's also a clinical professor of emergency medicine at the University of Louisville School of Medicine. When I read Dr. Smock verbatim, what Byron's legal team just said about the possibility that Anastasia was lying down when she was shot and a piece of her skull was sent feet away, Dr. Smock says if her head was on the ground, there's no way that her head would have come up from the force of the shot causing a piece of her skull to fly and land up two feet away. If anything, he said, it just would have gone down further into the ground. So Dr. Smock doesn't believe their theory is possible. Okay, this is a question I don't think you guys are gonna like. That's okay. Look at your faces. Okay. As I went back through the transcripts, I saw something that was a teeny tiny bit of like a pink flag.

[Leah Rothman]

Sure.

[Byron Case]

Or a burnt orange flag. In Byron's first interview with Kilgore and Kellogg, they ask him, has Justin ever been suicidal? And he says, yes, you know, I think he's attempted a few times. And he says, I'll just read it to you. He says that night, he says, I know he had attempts in the past. He. Quite a few actually. And last night he did. After Anastasia got out of the car, he. I don't know. We were driving down Truman Road. We were going over, I guess it was like railroad tracks or something, I don't know. But he was like mentioning, you know, he was like, gee, I don't know. You know, I'm thinking like, you know, tonight I could just kill myself. I just thought he was, you know, being silly about it. Being silly about it. And then they jump in and ask him a couple questions. Okay, so here's my question. I feel like I got a paper cut. The first time Kelly comes forward In September of 2000, she says that they dumped the gun near some railroad tracks. The only time that railroad tracks come up are when Byron says Justin thought or mentioned that he might kill himself. And when Kelly says they dumped the gun, is that a tell? Did Byron say something that inadvertently he used a detail like the railroad track that also then matched kind of the area where Kelly.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Or is this a tell map Of Truman Road? Or is this a tell by Kelly of her integrating the actual truth into her fabrication?

[Danielle Fishel]

I'm counting the number of railroad tracks they would pass over between Washington, Mount Washington cemetery before getting back downtown.

[Byron Case]

But I'm not even talking about, like, not even in relation to the area or Lincoln Cemetery or Truman Road. Just the fact that Byron says Justin threatened or mentioned suicide at some railroad tracks. Kelly says they dumped the gun near some railroad tracks. One could say it would make sense that Justin threatened to kill himself. It was. If it was at a place after they killed her, it was at a place where the gun was dark, dumped.

[Danielle Fishel]

Or they pass over railroad tracks on their way back into Kansas City.

[Ryan Reynolds]

I see what you're saying.

[Danielle Fishel]

I just think that three times.

[Ryan Reynolds]

I think that that would be a. I don't think that. That. I don't find that fact particularly alarming or anything. I mean, I get. I take your point, but it's just. To me, it just seems like Byron is recalling the story as it happened. He's like, so she gets out, and then we're driving, and, like, we start going over some railroad tracks.

[Leah Rothman]

And then.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Oh, and Justin's, like, talking about killing himself because of this argument they just had.

[Danielle Fishel]

Like, it's another industrial area. So there are two opportunities before they get back, Even inside the. What we would call the downtown loop or south Kansas City area. Two opportunities where there are lots of railroad tracks.

[Byron Case]

Yeah, it just stood out to me. But if he just witnessed a murder or he just killed her while the three of them were together, One could say, like. Like, that would be a response that could be believable. So I wanted to ask because, you know, it's like, was that. Go ahead. Were those the railroad tracks by Lake Quivira or by. I don't think it even matters where the tracks are. I think just hearing Byron say, when we were near some railroad tracks, Justin said, I should just kill myself tonight. And then it turns out that the only other time we hear railroad tracks Is when Kelly says they dumped the gun near them. One could just say, hmm, I wonder if there's a connection between every good fabrication, them just having killed her.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Every good fabrication incorporates elements of truth in it. But she would have been in the car when Justin says that as they're going over railroad tracks. And so I always say, even a.

[Unknown]

Blind squirrel finds an acorn every now and then. There are probably a couple of true.

[Byron Case]

Wait, am I the blind squirrel?

[Unknown]

No, no, no. Kelly's the blind squirrel. It's a corollary to the Broken clock. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah, to me it's the same. It's the same thing as her incorporate. She's incorporating real memories into her fabrication.

[Unknown]

Yeah, we've talked about theories of the case.

[Byron Case]

I mean, it's all speculation. We have no idea. Yeah, we really don't.

[Unknown]

But the police theory of the case from the beginning was murder, suicide. That's what they thought. We don't know when or if or how Justin would have reconnected with Anastasia that night. But for a long time, that's what the police believed happened.

[Byron Case]

So did Justin say he wanted to take his own life because Anastasia got out of the car? Or was it because he just committed or witnessed her murder? I was just going to point out, just for transparency, that we all have a different version. I mean, we all have different ideas about what could have happened.

[Unknown]

The question is this. What does the physical evidence show? It shows that the police find her body in the cemetery. She has been shot with a gun that was touching her nose when it was fired and she did not turn away. She was probably lying on her back when that happened. It could be a pistol, it could have been a rifle, but they can't say. All we know is that there's not a gun on the scene. If there had been a gun on the scene, this would have been ruled a suicide open and shut case. But the crime lab has said the absence of a gun at the scene does not foreclose suicide. Especially when we know there's an unexplained automobile that was there at the scene. We cannot exclude. Now, we don't know when that car went by, but we do know it went by before the police got there. It might have been a few days before it had rained on that like two days before, but still a car had been by. And so we don't know that the scene was pristine when the police arrived. And so beyond a reasonable doubt, did someone kill Anastasia? I don't think they can show that it would go on from there. You know, if she didn't take her own life, what could have happened? How could that gun have been missing? Well, there is evidence that Bob Whitbowl's Fugan thinks he heard the gun that killed her. He thinks he heard that shot and he was standing in a place and said the shot came from the west of where he was in the general direction of Lincoln Cemetery. It is inconceivable that he didn't go there to look for the gun. He, by the way, has the financial incentive to cover up a suicide because he just increased two days earlier the life insurance policy. So there's evidence to support that theory. And I'd probably argue to a jury that to find Byron guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, you have to answer these questions. That all of these unanswered questions doesn't mean that Byron is guilty. Because we can't answer these questions. The opposite is true. These questions raise other possibilities inconsistent with Byron's guilt.

[Ice Cube]

The reviews and ratings are in, and Ice Cube's Big Three is the surprise hit of the summer. This Saturday, 4pm Eastern on CBS, with playoff elimination on the line, the stars will be flocking to Los Angeles to witness the most physical, fiercest and competitive basketball in the world. Miami's Michael Beasley and Lance Stevenson must win over Houston to make the playoffs, reeling from last week's savage beating at the hands of Chicago's possessed Montrez Harold. Last time these teams met, Miami beat Houston, but they are a dangerous team having their manhood at stake. Then breakout star Dwight Howard Howard of the LA Riot will battle Gary Payton's Boston squad in a do or die match for both teams. Will LA avenge their previous shocking loss to perennial basketball Boston rivals? To survive, six teams are allowed for four spots and all must win. Don't miss the Big Three, the three on three basketball league everyone is talking about. There's no crying in the big three and the no hold spot action starts Saturday at 4pm Eastern, 1pm Pacific, followed by two games on Vice starting starting at 6:30 Eastern. Presented by iHeart.

[Howie Mandel]

I can't tell you how often I hear, oh, I'm a little ocd. I like things neat. That's not ocd. I'm Howie Mandel and I know this because I have ocd. Actual OCD causes relentless unwanted thoughts. What if I did something terrible and forgot? What if I'm a bad person? Why am I thinking this terrible thing? It makes you question absolutely everything and you'll do anything to feel better. OCD is debilitating, but it's also highly treatable with the right kind of therapy. Regular talk therapy doesn't cut it. OCD needs specialized therapy. That's why I want to tell you about nocd. NOCD is the world's largest virtual therapy provider for ocd. Their licensed therapists provide specialized therapy virtually and it's covered by insurance for over 155 million Americans. If you think you might be struggling with OCD, visit nocd.com to schedule a free 15 minute call and learn more. That's nocd.com if you eat too many.

[Christina Quinn]

Ultra processed foods, you could be starving your gut microbes and they'll get hangry. That's one of many things I learned after working on a new audio course about the gut microbiome. You can learn how to keep your gut happy by listening to Try this from the Washington Post. I'm Christina Quinn. I host Try this. Dig in with me on practical advice for life's common challenges follow Try this right now. Wherever you're at listening, seriously, try it.

[Unknown]

Shout out to Sonos for supporting today's show at home. Whether I'm watching Monday Night Football or I'm flipping between all the games on Sunday, sound quality matters. And this is where Sonos comes in. Their speakers bring your sports experience and entertainment to life. So whether it's in your own home there or you are out streaming music wherever you might be in your headphones, Sonos is the company for you. Sonos makes it easy to bring all your entertainment into every room in your home with their home theater speaker system. It's amazing. You want to feel like you're in the game. Every crowd moment, every hit Sonos speakers. That's the way to do it. Home theater, cinematic sound. You want to bring those films to the next level. Guess what? That's how you do it. You got the Ace headphones too. Amazing sound quality with crystal clear highs and powerful bass. You don't just hear the content in those headphones, you feel it. Trust me, I've got a pair. I know what I'm talking about. And you get up to 30 hours of battery, 3 hours of playback with a quick 3 minute charge. It doesn't get better than that. So if you're serious about great sound for football podcasts or music, you've got to check out Sonos. Visit sonos.com to learn more and explore the full Sonos lineup.

[Byron Case]

What do you make of people's varying timelines like Suleiman and Dawn Wright tell very different times that Anastasia was at the Dairy Queen. Don Rand said that he saw her at 8:30. None of those timelines really totally work with her getting out of the car. Then they went to Abraham's, then she was home. Then Kelly was home by 99 15. So what do you make of everyone's very different timelines?

[Danielle Fishel]

The time change?

[Ryan Reynolds]

Well that happened after but a week, like a week after she was found. But I think that it's that time of year when it's getting darker earlier. I think you asked anybody in October what time something happened last Night. Your brain is still adjusting to dark being 8 o' clock versus dark being 7 o', clock, you know, but.

[Byron Case]

Don. Right. Sorry to interrupt you. Dawn Wright does say that she was here until a half hour before closing. And we close at 10, so that's much later.

[Ryan Reynolds]

And we know that can't be accurate because Kelly was home by that point in time, verified by Debbie. I mean, that was a. Or her curfew. She would have gone nuclear if her daughter wasn't home by 9 o' clock like she was supposed to.

[Unknown]

This is why the failure to collect that video surveillance is so prejudicial to the defense, because we would have a definitive point of time at which they left the Dairy Queen. And then we have Debbie Moffitt establishing when Kelly got home. And we would have those two points in time fixed. And that would let us test everything in between, but. And reenact on a clock whether or not Kelly's story is even plausible given the timeline.

[Byron Case]

And at the end of the day, Kelly told Don Wright Justin didn't want to come to Independence to pick her up because it was hanging.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Anastasia told Anastasia told.

[Byron Case]

Done right. That Justin didn't want to come to Independence to pick her up because he was hanging out with his best friend. Does that sound like someone who's plotted to kill her all day? He doesn't even want to come get her.

[Leah Rothman]

I don't know.

[Byron Case]

I just wanted to add that a lot of people wrote in, they had a lot of questions and theories and thoughts. One of them was, is Byron a sociopath? And I know that you had him evaluated, so I wanted to ask you about that.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Absolutely no evidence of sociopathy or any personality disorders or anything like that. And in fact, part of us, we were wondering if maybe he was on the spectrum. And I think that kind of came back as inconclusive, which we were interested in that for explaining some of his demeanor. Demeanor. Yeah, and that's not. That's nothing. That, when you get to know Byron, he's not, you know, he. You see him for who he is. But I. I could understand why some people would think he was, I hate to say weird, but why he was different.

[Unknown]

Well, he's bright.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah, he is.

[Unknown]

He's very smart. And. And so he intellectually ruminates on a lot of things. And, you know, people can draw conclusions from that, but that's just how Byron is.

[Ryan Reynolds]

You know, the other thing is we got his prison conduct records and he only, in 20 some odd years of being in prison, has two conduct violations, one for staying up past curfew to read a book and the other for working on his innocence website when they had told him to stop working on his innocence website. If he was a sociopath, that would be documented.

[Byron Case]

At this point, Brian just answered, actually another listener's question about whether or not Byron is autistic. The listener asked if Byron is on the spectrum, suggesting that could explain some of his behaviors and judgments. Brian just said that testing came back inconclusive. One listener wrote, asking if the phone records can still be retrieved. It seems that answer is no. Another person wrote in asking about the weight of the bullet fragment, wondering if that could tell us something about the kind of gun that was used. So the weight is 56.1 grains, which unfortunately doesn't rule out a lot of calibers. Another person wrote in asking if there was a metal detector ever used to look for other bullet fragments. At the site where Anastasia died, a metal detector was used the day her body was found. According to a police report, there were several small to medium sized metal objects located as deep as 8 to 10 inches below the surface of the ground. None were bullets. Many listeners asked if this wasn't in fact a murder suicide, that maybe after Justin took Byron home, he went back out, met up with Anastasia, killed her, then took his own life. Sadly, there's really no way to prove that. Another question that came in was about what items were picked up from Abraham and taken to Terah that night. And there are conflicting stories about that. There are also conflicting stories about whose house they went to first. It's hard to know if there's a there there or if it's just that too much time had gone by and those memories had faded. Let's talk about Bob for two seconds. Is there for all of the stuff that seems ridiculous that Bob came up with, like the caravan of cars, Is it possible that some of the other things he was just mistaken about, like, like the clothes, like the underwear and jeans at the house? Could they have been friends? Could they? I mean, he doesn't report those for a while, right? So even though he says that he found them not long after the murder, you know, he said a lot of things, so it's hard to say, like we're going to believe everything that Bob says or we're going to pick and choose some of the things that we believe Bob said was true.

[Danielle Fishel]

Well, we've, you know what I mean?

[Byron Case]

Like the audience is listening and they're like, well, Bob helps us in this way, but is ridiculous in this way.

[Danielle Fishel]

Because we have external verification Again, like when he talks about the underwear being in the sink and the jeans being there, we do know that at least somewhere on this timeline, Anastasia cleaned herself up because her underwear is clean, her body is clean, the pad is clean. So she had to clean herself up.

[Byron Case]

So.

[Unknown]

But with Bob, we look at him the same way we do Kelly. And so with Bob, I mean, the purse that he took a photograph of and emailed to Detective Kilgore matched perfectly the description of the one that Don Wright saw. So that's pretty good evidence that he's, you know, that the panties and the. And the jeans in the laundry, those support his theory that Anastasia went home. And so that's how we look at everything in the case.

[Byron Case]

A chance that Don Rand was incorrect in identifying Anastasia on Truman Road that.

[Danielle Fishel]

Night, three other people would have to be incorrect.

[Ryan Reynolds]

It would be such a coincidence that they just happen to fabricate a story about Anastasia getting out of the car at around dusk, and then a mechanic at that exact location looks at a picture of her and says, yeah, that's the girl I saw get out about dusk.

[Byron Case]

I mean, I asked Kelly about that. I was like, what do you make of Don Random having seen Anastasia? And she was like. And don't quote me, because, you know, sure. But she said, we were stunned because it bolstered the story that we made up. We couldn't believe how lucky we got that there was somebody. Wait a minute.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Hold on, hold on.

[Byron Case]

Stop, stop, stop, stop, stop.

[Ryan Reynolds]

When.

[Unknown]

When she.

[Byron Case]

Exactly.

[Ryan Reynolds]

When was she stunned about that? When did she say she was stunned?

[Leah Rothman]

Right.

[Ryan Reynolds]

He didn't know that there was. When did they find out that somebody had. At a gas station says they saw her?

[Byron Case]

I think they had.

[Ryan Reynolds]

I don't know. But that's the. That's my question for Kelly. When did you and Byron supposedly find out that an independent witness saw Anastasia get out of the car? Because if that was a leak in the investigation, Don Rand told Tara.

[Byron Case]

Exactly. I mean, I. I didn't ask Kelly, but I was just going to say, because Tara spoke with Don Random, what do you think is going to be the greatest likelihood of you getting Byron a new trial? Will it be the Brady violations or what?

[Ryan Reynolds]

We do believe that the Brady violations are the strongest and clearest, especially the fact that they did not disclose Kelly's criminal record before trial. There, there's. In Missouri black letter law right on point. When you have a single witness that you're resting your case on and you fail to disclose evidence related to their credibility. New trial.

[Unknown]

The other claim that I think is equally important, if not more so, is a natural versus Illinois violation, which is the prosecutor presenting evidence that they know or should know is false, and the transcript they used to bolster Kelly's credibility is false. I wanted to point out that all this discussion we're having is a discussion that should have happened in the jury deliberations. You know, you could picture making the movie 12 angry men about this case or 12 angry people about this case. We should be, you know, the jury should have been the one arguing these facts. And they didn't get any of it. They. They barely got any of it. And we can lay the blame at the police for not telling the prosecutor everything, not forwarding Bob's emails. We can blame the prosecutor for not telling the defense about Kelly's conviction, the fact that she's under warrant when she's giving statements and depositions about the case. And, you know, we can blame the prosecution for producing a false transcript that all you need to do is ask a court reporter, like we did, to transcribe it, and you get a truthful version of it. This is what court reporters are trained to do and certify. So it's now certified beyond question that the state used a false transcript. And so under Napoover versus Illinois, if there is any likelihood that it would have affected the verdict, then Byron is entitled to a new trial. The big issue is always procedural technicalities. We're not just allowed to walk into court and say, here's the new evidence. Let him go. We have to show that somebody blocked this evidence from getting into earlier appeals. And that's really the challenge for us.

[Byron Case]

Do you feel that Byron is legally innocent or factually innocent?

[Unknown]

I think he's factually innocent. And by factual innocence, I mean he didn't kill anyone. And, you know, legal innocence and factual innocence is kind of a bizarre little distinction. But he didn't do it. And I believe that.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah, I believe Byron is actually innocent. I didn't believe that. I didn't have a opinion about that when I first got involved in the case. When I first got involved in the case, I knew he was legally innocent because I knew he didn't get a fair trial, and I believe I don't. Everybody deserves a fair trial. What else is this system if we don't have fairness? But, you know, very quickly within getting into this case is when I figured out and fully believed that he's actually innocent. It is not in Byron's character to do something like this. He just simply is not the kind of person that would be a, you know, quote unquote thrill killer or something or kill someone because they were annoying. He's too thoughtful, he's too empathetic, he's too good of a human to do something like that. And the fact that there is not one shred of evidence other than his lying ex girlfriend to convict him is. Yeah, I have very strong feelings about that. And it makes me mad, it makes me sad, it makes me scared for other people that have to go through this system that seems to have no interest in reforming itself or actually being fair when that matters.

[Danielle Fishel]

I believe Byron is innocent because I've done the investigation. I went out and I talked to people, we had the forensic evidence examined by people who were finally provided with the materials that they needed to do a true examination. And at every turn, Byron is innocent every single time. I have in the past started an investigation and found definitive proof that that someone was guilty, usually by DNA evidence. And it's heartbreaking, but you have to step away from those cases. I can't say someone is innocent without having done the investigation myself. I'm not going to put my integrity or my reputation on the line to do that. I believe Byron Case is innocent. Factually, legally, he did not do this.

[Byron Case]

I believe Byron is actually innocent. I, like Quinn, think that he's legally innocent and actually innocent. I don't know what it would take to get me to change my mind. I would just have to take those facts as they come.

[Danielle Fishel]

So I don't know the evidence in this case is what really matters. And you know, we can pontificate and theorize all day about what really happened. That's an interesting thing to do. But every time we do that, every time we talk about theories about what happened, none of those things, theories involve Byron and that's the point. Byron Case didn't do this.

[Byron Case]

Anything else before we say goodbye?

[Ryan Reynolds]

I don't think so. I think we just, we really appreciate the time and attention that you've given to this and we do, we appreciate the fairness and that you are also fact checking us and trying to keep us on us. Then the new things, even that you've discovered has been very helpful and illuminating for us and so we appreciate that.

[Byron Case]

Thank you. I don't even know where to begin with how to end this season. I have said it since the beginning. I have only been in search of the truth. Although other people have been mentioned as potential persons of interest. Doesn't it really come down to who do you believe? Byron or Kelly? By your Instagram comments Messages and emails. I can see there are listeners very much on both sides of the fence. It's pretty much divided. Byron has told the Same story since 1997. There's no physical evidence that links him to the murder. His legal team says there are people who saw Anastasia that night, which proves she got out of the car and her jeans in the washing machine and underwear soaking in a sink prove she went home. They say if she got out of the car, Byron didn't do it. They say if she went home, Byron didn't do it. They also say the tacit admission is now a moot point because Byron now can be heard saying, we should talk about this. Kelly says she witnessed Anastasia's murder and the guilt she felt caused her to spiral into a drug addiction that almost killed her. She says she didn't come forward for years because she was scared being told by Byron she was as guilty as he was. She also says before being made to come forward, she told her dad, her ex boyfriend Jim, and her friend Angie Giannino that Byron had murdered Anastasia. Kelly says she is iffy on some details but remembers the important things, like Byron is the one who pulled the trigger. About the tacit admission call, Kelly asks, if Byron is innocent, why didn't he just deny it? With all of the research and interviews we've done, there's still so much you, the listeners and I haven't been able to reconcile. Like the phone call Kelly says she made from the gas station to Anastasia. Whether or not Anastasia went home that night, the possibility that some of the eyewitnesses might have been wrong about what Anastasia was wearing or even if they saw her at all, why didn't Anastasia fight back or run? Why did Justin take his own life? Why didn't Byron deny anything in that June 5th call? Patrick Rock, where were you that night, Bob? Why did you go to the exact spot where Anastasia's body was found in Lincoln Cemetery before anyone informed you where it was? Prosecutors, why allegedly were certain things withheld from Byron's defense team? And Sergeant Kilgore, why did this investigation seem to go so wrong? Why were obvious things, things like phone records never pulled that could have potentially solved this case right away? Because it seems the way this investigation was handled is really why we have so many unanswered questions. Also, why did Kelly agree to talk with me? She didn't have to. And why didn't some people want to talk, people who had already written affidavits for Byron Horton, Lance, Dr. Thomas Young and Judge Charles Atwell. Like I said at the beginning of this episode, although we have spent so much time talking about Byron and Kelly and what can and can't be proven in this case, we must remember that all of this is about getting justice for Anastasia. Was justice served? A lot of people, including Anastasia's family, say yes, the real killer is in prison. Case closed. Others say no, the real killer is still out there or dead. Regardless, the courts will decide if Byron deserves a new trial or not. Thank you to everyone who participated, especially Anastasia's sisters Fran and Emma. Our hearts go out out to you and your family. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the individuals participating in the podcast. If you or someone you know is experiencing suicidal thoughts or a crisis, please know help is available. Call or text 988 or chat online at the Suicide and crisis [e-mail] to see photos, maps and documents related to this season's story. Follow the Real Killer podcast on Instagram and RKpodcast on TikTok. The real killer is a production of AYR Media and iHeartMedia, hosted by me, Leah Rothman executive Producers Leah Rothman and Elisa Rosen for Ayr Media Written by Leah Rothman Editing and sound design by Cameron Tagi Mixed and mastered by Cameron Tagi Audio Engineer Justin Longer Beam Studio Engineer Graham Gibson Legal Counsel for Ayr Media Gianni Douglas executive producer for iHeartMedia Maya Howard.

[Leah Rothman]

SA.

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[Christina Quinn]

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[Byron Case]

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[Christina Quinn]

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[Danielle Fishel]

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[Byron Case]

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[Byron Case]

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[Danielle Fishel]

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[Byron Case]

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[Christina Quinn]

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[Danielle Fishel]

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[Byron Case]

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[Danielle Fishel]

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[Christina Quinn]

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