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- [00:00]
Alamo Joseph
Foreign watch fans and welcome to another edition of the Real Time show with me, your friendly neighborhood jeweler, Alamo Joseph. I have my dear friend and very friendly watchmaker, master watchmaker, second time on the show as we promised we would bring Erich van Lewa, the founder of Maas watches on the show while he was in Austria in Folkermarkt in Corinthia, Austria, finishing his third internship at Harbing Watchmakers. But because his Internet connection was spotty there, we decided to reschedule for the first week when he was back in the Netherlands. Welcome back, Eric.
- [00:54]
Erich van Lewa
Thanks, Alan. Thanks. Good to be back.
- [00:56]
Alamo Joseph
First things first, were you homesick there in Austria spending six weeks just making watches?
- [01:04]
Erich van Lewa
Yes, I can say unfortunately and fortunately that I got homesick. So the turning point was around four weeks that I basically thought maybe it's good that I go back now because I missed my family and friends a lot. But you know, I was there with a purpose and I wanted to achieve my goal and I, I, I did it. But I can tell you that on the way to Austria I took two days to go there. But on the way back it was just full ghost one day back to home.
- [01:31]
Alamo Joseph
That's good to hear and I'm quite sure your wife is and was happy to hear this as well.
- [01:37]
Erich van Lewa
Yes.
- [01:37]
Alamo Joseph
For dear listeners that are tuning in and missed part one, if you go to June 2, 2024, we aired the first part where Eric sat down with me to share his journey of pivoting in his career, in his life, quitting a C level job, turning watchmaker. But not just a watchmaker, he wants to be a master watchmaker. We recorded part one, then we agreed that towards the end of his education in the Netherlands where he's rounding up his education as a watchmaker, we would record part two and in an undefined period we'll record part three and maybe four to see how his journey as an entrepreneur and watchmaker will go. Because if you want more background information, you can find more about Mass Watches on the website. M A E S W A T C H M a k e r.com mass watchmaker.com so first things first, Eric, did you actually learn something there in Austria or were you all six weeks like, hey dude, I know this better. Richard and Maria Hobling.
- [02:50]
Erich van Lewa
I wish I learned a lot and I'm very flattered that you call me master watchmaker, but I can assure you that when you work for already one day with Mr. Harbring, you quite know well that you're not a master watch maker. Yet and that it will take another 40 years at least to, to reach his level. And of course I had some, some contact with friends and family during my stay over there and I, I had a comparison like I think I was acting pretty much on a championship level in, in soccer, right. And suddenly I had to train with Manchester City and also perform on Manchester City level. So it has been challenging, but I learned a tremendous lot about winning watchmaking at this level.
- [03:42]
Alamo Joseph
For our listeners that maybe are not that familiar with Haring. So Maria, Richard are a couple. They are master watchmakers. They have a brand. You can find their website at H A b r I n g2 number2.com I have been admiring Richard ever since I discovered the IWC Rat Pond Portugueser. And I was a fortunate owner of several models and only because of that I've discovered who the inventor of that module of Era Tapant on a Basically a base Bonjour 7750 caliber was made. And ever since I've been following him. One of his watches is on my wish list. They are a manufacturer, so maybe just give us a little intro about them, the brand and why you specifically so much wanted to work with them and that you've spent three internships with them locally in Austria.
- [04:48]
Erich van Lewa
Yeah, well that's basically because I, I always look for places where other people don't go. And so that means I'm not looking after working for the big brands or the big factories or the big jewelry shops. And I got to got to know Hambring through a podcast from Hodinkee at the time when they still make good podcasts. And I was really surprised by the level of modesty that both Maria and Richard showed during that podcast while at the same time making really astonishing timepieces and also as you said, nice complications on, on their movements. And so I reached out to them during already my first year at school asking, look, in, in three years time I would have to do a final internship and I'd like to do that with you because I would like to learn from the best and well, modest and, and nice as they are, they got back to me and said well okay, we are open to that but let's, let's first get to know each other a bit better. So we invite you to come for a week and after that one week we'll decide if there is a mutual liking and if yes of course you're always welcome to, to learn. And that's how the journey started. So three years ago I was there the first time last year I was the second time and that time I was really focusing on finishing parts. And now my internship that I needed to do to finish my education at school, it was a full 6 weeks working full time on watches and specifically on the harboring movements.
- [06:33]
Alamo Joseph
How old are they? I actually don't know that.
- [06:38]
Erich van Lewa
Richard is 56 and Maria, I don't know for sure because you know, you shouldn't ask a woman to how old, how old she is, but I guess she's around 50, 50 as well.
- [06:50]
Alamo Joseph
And they actually are active a very long time in the watch industry. But the brand Hring Square, so it's not hing to, but Square exists less than two decades if I'm not mistaken.
- [07:08]
Erich van Lewa
Yeah. And as a matter of fact 20 years this year.
- [07:11]
Alamo Joseph
That's 20 years. Okay.
- [07:12]
Erich van Lewa
Yes. Yeah.
- [07:14]
Alamo Joseph
What, what did they do before and why did they venture out to start their own watch brand?
- [07:19]
Erich van Lewa
Well, Richard was master watchmaker at the Richemont Group and as such has been working for IWC where he was working next to Kurt Klaus working on complications and development of movements. And after that he became trainer for Law Enzehner. So basically he trained watchmakers at Law Enzehne and that was the time when he was in Germany and he's born in Austria. And one day when he got back to, to Ger to Austria from Germany, he met Maria in, in the train. Literally. They were sitting opposite each other and they started talking about their, their mutual profession. And it turned out that Maria was also working in Glasswater as a watchmaker and they fell in love. Basically. It's a, it's a real love story. And within 12 months they got married and decided to start a watch brand together. And the main motivation for Ridgid to start a watch brand was that he was fed up working for the big groups where everything is about making money as much as possible as fast as possible and not about the quality of the products as such.
- [08:34]
Alamo Joseph
That's actually a beautiful story. I didn't know that. And while looking at their website, their tagline is made with. With love.
- [08:41]
Erich van Lewa
Yes.
- [08:41]
Alamo Joseph
And the watches are actually their babies because I don't think they have children. No. So that's actually a beautiful story and no marketing mumbo jumbo.
- [08:50]
Erich van Lewa
It is.
- [08:51]
Alamo Joseph
Yeah. So how much do they actually make in house?
- [08:56]
Erich van Lewa
Not all parts are technically possible to make in house themselves, but all parts are really tailor made and designed by Harring themselves. And they've outsourced of course the laser cutting of the wheels for example, to a specialized company. But those wheels, you will never find in any other movement because they're only designed and applied by Habri and only if. And that's also something that's quite interesting to share also with the listeners is that if you have an own movement and you have all the parts produced by external suppliers, not any, not a single movement just fits like that as a working piece. So on each and every piece being at a bridge or a main plate, there needs to be some rework done, sometimes to, to open up a hole or to, to close a hole or whatever. So there's a lot of manual work involved, even if all the parts are made according to the highest standards.
- [09:59]
Alamo Joseph
What attracted you to either the brand and, or the couple as a watch maker and a watch collector? Because you also personally own a Halbrane wristwatch. And this will lead to the question because in the previous episode you've mentioned that you together with Benzinger are the only ones in the world allowed to use Hobron calibers for their own watches. Why did you want that and is that still the case? Because maybe you guys, maybe you left Austria with a big fight and you guys might not speaking terms anymore. So that's an assumption I'm making. Walk us through that process.
- [10:43]
Erich van Lewa
Well, after the first internship at Harring, I was already impressed about the level of quality of the, of the movements and also all the attention that is put into each and every movement to make it as accurate as possible. And it's almost insane how much effort is put in all the details to get the escapement, which is basically the most important part of the watch performing at insane levels. And I was surprised to see how much you can achieve by focusing on those technical details. And when my ID popped up to start my own watch brand, it was basically a no brainer that I would like to have such a movement as well for my own very personal watch. And I knew at that time that Harbing was not supplying to many other watchmakers. So that would also be a unique selling point for my own watch brand, obviously. And I'm very happy and glad that both Richard and Maria were open to supply me the, the, the movements. And to answer your last question, I did not leave with a big fight. As a matter of fact, I, I left with a box full of movements, movements that are not 100% finished yet. Because I would like to apply a different finish than Hobbling does on this on his watches. But I have all the parts and components, let's say sub assembled here in my, in my working area. So the first batch of movements is it's about to be. To be finished.
- [12:29]
Alamo Joseph
Congratulations. I have no idea how to do sounds on the podcast, but imagine I would have hit the button of applause. Congratulations. I'm super happy for you.
- [12:38]
Erich van Lewa
Thanks.
- [12:39]
Alamo Joseph
And for me, because I want a mass watch. Is it the movement H Ring Square A11B?
- [12:45]
Erich van Lewa
Yes.
- [12:46]
Alamo Joseph
They use that in the Felix watch.
- [12:48]
Erich van Lewa
Yes, that's their. Their entry level H ring and I wanted to start also on a, let's say entry level. And so I chose that movement as the base movement. But I already, before we started this recording, this show, I told you already that for the next watches I would like to introduce, I will also use other calibers of harim because I've worked on so many different calibers and all this technical ingenuity, I'd like to have that in my watches as well.
- [13:25]
Alamo Joseph
So let's talk about that calibre, because I know you can get it either with a sub seconds or a central seconds hand.
- [13:32]
Erich van Lewa
Yeah.
- [13:33]
Alamo Joseph
Is the sub seconds a module or did he create the platinum in this way that you don't gain thickness by choosing one or the other?
- [13:46]
Erich van Lewa
No, in fact, the. The central second, each and every central second that Harbring uses is a deadbeat second, which is a very thin complication, basically using more or less the same parts as the 77, 70, 7050 chronograph module. But he's one of the few watchmakers that uses the deadbeat second complication a lot. And, and I really like it.
- [14:14]
Alamo Joseph
But the sub seconds isn't.
- [14:16]
Erich van Lewa
No, no. Okay, so.
- [14:17]
Alamo Joseph
So the central seconds is a complication and a module built on top. So you will go for a sub dial.
- [14:24]
Erich van Lewa
Yes. Yeah. In my first watch. Yes.
- [14:27]
Alamo Joseph
Because of the slimness.
- [14:29]
Erich van Lewa
Yeah.
- [14:29]
Alamo Joseph
Or because you like sub dials.
- [14:31]
Erich van Lewa
Both, actually. The slimness is the main part, because I'd like to have a very thin watch that, that you can wear easily under your cs. Uh, but it also allows you to do some nice design twists on the dial. Uh, so that's also something I like about it.
- [14:48]
Alamo Joseph
So now, philosophical question for you. Why do idiots like you and me like dead beat seconds on mechanical watches? So this question has been asked a lot. The differentiator. If you see somebody, you'll look at a sweeping hand or ticking. If it's sweeping, you know, it's mechanical.
- [15:10]
Erich van Lewa
Yeah.
- [15:11]
Alamo Joseph
Could be a spring drive, technically. Right. But let's say nine out of 10, you know, it's me. So basically, it's reverse psychology. You're taking. You're making a mechanic watch even more expensive.
- [15:23]
Erich van Lewa
Yes.
- [15:23]
Alamo Joseph
To make it look or look that it operates like a quartz.
- [15:27]
Erich van Lewa
Yes.
- [15:28]
Alamo Joseph
So what's wrong with us?
- [15:30]
Erich van Lewa
I don't know. I think it's. It's also a matter of, let's say, distinguishing those who are in the know from those who don't have a clue. I mean, if you aware about that these complications even exist, I think there's a lot of watch enthusiasts who don't even know about the deadbeat second or would not recognize it. So it's a. If you recognize it and you know that it's possible and which brands do apply it, it's. It's a sort of like small group of people like, ah, we know, but what's so special about it?
- [16:04]
Alamo Joseph
So you're taking it to the flexing side of things. What I always explain to people why watchmakers want to pursue it. If you look at timekeeping, chronometry, we love the 36,000 beating calibers like the El Primero. Patek also has it now, let's say the 10 hertz ones.
- [16:25]
Erich van Lewa
Yeah.
- [16:25]
Alamo Joseph
Because if it's a chronograph, it's about timing. And then if it's sports or whatever, you do want to know what split seconds are no less than a rounded second. But in chronometry, if you want to set the time, we usually stop hours, minutes and seconds. Yeah, we don't care for 1/5 of a second. We just want to know, is it 31, 30 or 29 seconds. So that's what I love it. Because it grows to the depth of chronometry.
- [16:58]
Erich van Lewa
Well, which is true. And from a technical point of view, I can tell you that it's quite a nightmare because if one thing is important is that you exactly align the hand with the markers on the dial. And because it looks crazy if it's not exactly aligned, and it's quite a burden to have it exactly aligned. So also from a watchmaking perspective, it's a challenge to do it right. And if you're able to do it right, then, yeah, it makes you proud and it shows that the person who made the watch knows what he's doing.
- [17:32]
Alamo Joseph
While we're talking, I'm actually looking at the architecture of the A11B.
- [17:39]
Erich van Lewa
Yeah.
- [17:40]
Alamo Joseph
The caliber, respectfully. So I'm saying this, this looks like a baby FP Jones because he. They incorporate this oval logo inside the quarter plate and you see the Germanic pedigree because it's basically almost a three quarter plate. Am I right?
- [18:03]
Erich van Lewa
Yes, exactly. Yeah.
- [18:06]
Alamo Joseph
So as an Austrian laying deep roots in both the Nordic Swiss Schaffhausen Region and the glasswater region. But is there also an added benefit in quality to do this, the three quarter, or is it more heritage?
- [18:25]
Erich van Lewa
No, it's quality. It's all about stability. And if you have one bridge which is very solid and sturdy, it gives more accuracy to the watch. That's plain and simple. And that's the main reason Harring likes to make beautiful watches. But first and foremost it needs to be technically perfect. So that means that each component is not there without a reason. And also the three quarter bridge is one of those reasons. It's more stiff so it, it makes that the wheels are more stable in the, in, in between the main plate and the bridge.
- [19:10]
Alamo Joseph
What chronometric position do they and therefore you pursue for these calibers?
- [19:17]
Erich van Lewa
Zero to max, three seconds.
- [19:20]
Alamo Joseph
Wow. Yeah, that's a very, very tight delta. So very small tolerance. Because we all know that zero is, is literally impossible.
- [19:29]
Erich van Lewa
Yeah, zero.
- [19:30]
Alamo Joseph
Do they have this tested by a third party lab?
- [19:33]
Erich van Lewa
In the past they have done it several times just to, to compare and, and, and to see how, how far they were. And each time they, they, they got the results back that they, they met all the criteria.
- [19:46]
Alamo Joseph
Wow. I didn't know that. I see that they have engraved Made in Austria on the ratchet wheel for the barrel.
- [19:54]
Erich van Lewa
Yep.
- [19:55]
Alamo Joseph
What are you going to put on there?
- [19:57]
Erich van Lewa
Well, I have a plain ratchet wheel with me, so I will finish it differently. I will finish it with snailing technique instead of Sonnenschlief, as they will call it in Austria. I don't know what I will put on the as a text yet. I'm focusing now first on finishing all the parts in the way that I like it. If you're going to put Made in.
- [20:23]
Alamo Joseph
Rotterdam, I'm canceling my order hereby.
- [20:25]
Erich van Lewa
I know, I know. That's one of the reasons I'm a bit reluctant to share what I would like to put on it. And maybe I can tailor it according to customers needs.
- [20:34]
Alamo Joseph
Yeah, I'm just kidding. So, but let's take it from silly jokes to again a philosophical discussion. Can you write Made in the Netherlands? Because what is the definition for made in the Netherlands?
- [20:50]
Erich van Lewa
First of all, I don't think that the Dutch people are really strict when it comes to these kinds of regulations. Except for the Gouda cheese. But no, I would not put made in the Netherlands, maybe finished in the Netherlands or assembled or whatever because the parts are not made in the Netherlands. And I'm not going to lie about it. I'm proud that I can apply movements of harboring and those Movements come from Austria, maybe European made. That would be a nice idea.
- [21:25]
Alamo Joseph
That would be beautiful. Because I don't think any high end watchmaker does that. There are a few more that are the as transparent as you. Definitely not enough. Now going on a day dreaming trip. Do you have the wish, dream or ambition to create your own calibers on a hobbring level in house in the future?
- [21:53]
Erich van Lewa
Yes, I have the dream for sure, without any doubt. But having worked so closely with Hamring and see what he does and has been doing to create these movements and all the complications that he uses and he still keeps on developing new complications, I don't think I will have the time in my life to get all this know how that I would need to do that. So maybe with the help of Richard for example. Yes, for sure. But from ground on all by myself, I think I a bit too late in my life to having made the career change. If I would have done that, let's say 30 years ago, I would have had plenty time to to design and, and, and, and create a, a movement from scratch myself. But I have to be realistic.
- [22:47]
Alamo Joseph
I guess A famous Dutchman said every disadvantage has its advantage. Yeah, did your coming late to the party and you making it into a disadvantage. But I think that it gives you different insights that could be a huge advantage. Did they notice that during your last or all three internships did you shed a new light on things? Maybe that the hub wings learned something from you?
- [23:19]
Erich van Lewa
That would be a question that we would have to ask them. It's difficult to give a plain answer to that. But since there is a huge gap obviously in know how and, and, and between Haring and me when it comes to watchmaking. Right. But I have more experience in let's say the digital world. So that, that gave us some interesting discussions sometimes to, to. To meet each other some way in, in between like okay, Richard, I do this, this and this in this way. And he said okay, but we have been taught to do it like this and this. So yes, of course. But when it comes to pure watchmaking, I'm afraid I cannot teach them a lot more the other way around.
- [24:08]
Alamo Joseph
You can take it to a more helicopter view of things. So in the digital, maybe in marketing, maybe in running their company because you come from high level of corporate organizations. So maybe you've added benefit in that view or to market their watches sold watch because I see they only have 13 retailers in the world. Yeah, maybe you've discussed that and probably that is on purpose. Maybe they don't want More, maybe they can't produce more. So you can take it that direction.
- [24:43]
Erich van Lewa
We have discussed, obviously, about the retail model and their online strategy in general, because if you go to their website, it's not like the most fancy website you could think of, right? But they are, as I told you, they are really modest people. And the most important thing to them in their life is to be happy and to do something that they like and that makes them happy. Living in Carinthia, which is a very beautiful part of Austria. It also means that you need to have enough spare time to enjoy the mountains, to enjoy the lakes and everything that Carinthia has to offer. So they are really satisfied with the level of sales that they have. And that level of sales is already for a couple of years on the same level. And they're satisfied. So they say, why bother looking for new retailers or doing online campaigns, or be an Instagram influencer who makes us sell more watches? Because we don't need to sell more watches.
- [25:53]
Alamo Joseph
How many watches do they make a year?
- [25:56]
Erich van Lewa
Around 300.
- [25:58]
Alamo Joseph
Do they have a waiting list?
- [26:00]
Erich van Lewa
Yes.
- [26:01]
Alamo Joseph
For how long?
- [26:02]
Erich van Lewa
It depends a bit on the model, obviously, but between three and six months.
- [26:08]
Alamo Joseph
So basically they're doing you a favor to sell you calibers because they need them themselves.
- [26:11]
Erich van Lewa
Yes, that's. That's correct. And as you probably know is they do quite some collaborations with. With platforms like moduchrome. They did a collaboration with Messina Lab. So those watches also sold over a longer period of time, but a consistent flow of collaboration models.
- [26:40]
Alamo Joseph
How would a listener that listen to this episode go about if they want to purchase a Hubling watch? Because they don't have a E Commerce section on their website.
- [26:49]
Erich van Lewa
No.
- [26:49]
Alamo Joseph
What's the best way? The road of least resistance?
- [26:53]
Erich van Lewa
Send an email to Maria infoabring2.com and she will reply you personally with the questions, what type of model you would like to have, what kind of strap? And. And she will confirm the order.
- [27:10]
Alamo Joseph
Good. And this is a shout out. And this is for our American listeners and we have many of you shout out to you. Boys and girls, my dear friend Martin Pulley in Philadelphia also is a huge harboring fan and he stalks them. So if you're in the U.S. another road of lesser resistance is talking to him. Hit up Martin.
- [27:31]
Erich van Lewa
Yes.
- [27:32]
Alamo Joseph
Have you changed your. Well, actually I need to rephrase, not change your strategy idea. Did it materialize or crystallize a bit more since our last recording? And did you get orders in since our last recording?
- [27:49]
Erich van Lewa
Yeah. To start with your last question, Yes, I got. I Was really surprised to have so many positive reactions. Also people explaining their that interest and telling me, okay, when you have your first watch ready, I'd like to purchase one. So, yes, I'm really happy. And your first question, did something change? Not. Not necessarily. I had good discussions with Harbring about what I'd like to do to my. To my watch. And to give you an example, I'd like to. I will finish my bushes in frosting technique, beat blasting and apply hand on glage. Because I like that. And I think that's part of the artisanal way of watchmaking. And Harring doesn't like that. And he doesn't like that for several reasons. First of all, he says, well, with beat blasting, you always run the risk that you damage your bridge a bit and that it's not 100% flat anymore and that will have an influence on the performance of the movement. And the second thing he says, look, hand on glass is nice. It takes too much time and you can make any money. You can also do it with a, a machine. If you polish it nicely, only an expert will see that it's not done by hand. So we have a. Well, we agree to disagree on that. However, he told me quite some things about the. The plating of the. Of the movement because having use his rotation to. To finish his. His movements and I will apply rose gold finish. So he taught me how to do the sequence of. Of. Of plating in order to have the nice rose gold finish. But that's something he, he personally doesn't like. So he challenged me quite a lot on. Okay, are you sure you want to do it like that or can't you do it in this and this. In this way? It was nice to have these discussions from time to time.
- [29:59]
Alamo Joseph
I think that's a beautiful trifecta because he doesn't need a competitor, although I don't think he cares. But why would you be a copycat? So it's a good thing for him and their brand. I think it's a good thing for you because you're doing your own thing. That's awesome because you're an artist. And thirdly, for the consumer, it adds value because it's something new. So it's a beautiful trifecta and I'm actually happy to hear it. And I think it's also fun for them, for Maria Richard, that you want to do something because as a mentor, as a. As a teacher, because that's what they are.
- [30:34]
Erich van Lewa
Yeah.
- [30:35]
Alamo Joseph
It challenges them to get out of their comfort zone and Break their repetition of the monoma autonomous daily routines and say, hey, oh, he wants to do something different. How would I have done that if I would have chosen that route?
- [30:50]
Erich van Lewa
Yeah, yeah, that's, that's for sure. And, and of course I, I, they are my mentors, without any doubt. And, and they, they follow my journey with, with great interest because to them it's, it's completely strange that a guy that, that six years ago wasn't thinking about being a watchmaker and six years later does an internship with them and he starts talking about different finishing techniques and a different plating technology. So they follow with great interest developments. And I had to promise Richard to show my first watch to him first. So I will do that obviously because I want, he's a teacher and I want to make him proud in the end of the day day. So I would be very happy to show my first piece to him.
- [31:40]
Alamo Joseph
That's lovely to hear because I guess they get a lot of requests to take on interns. Yes. A lot of people think that taking on interns is free labor, but me as a mentor and a teacher as well, and in our company we have a lot of interns that we always had. My dad always had interns. It's about giving back because it's not free labor. It costs you a lot of energy.
- [32:04]
Erich van Lewa
Yeah, for sure.
- [32:05]
Alamo Joseph
You need to educate somebody and they usually don't stay in your company, so it's a brain drain. Do they have a fixed rule of number of interns they want or is it all ad hoc? So whenever there's a click, because it was nice that they told you, let's get to know each other. So are you the first apprentice, basically protege they have, or are there others?
- [32:31]
Erich van Lewa
They have been working with interns a lot from Germany as well as Austria, but Austria doesn't bring out enough watchmakers. So the, the, that the pool has been dried up, to be honest. So the, the last, they had one from Finland couple of years ago and the last was also two or three years ago from, from Germany. Their problem is that there is not enough watchmakers in there in the Dach region. And like Germany, Austria and Switzerland there are obviously, but they go to the Swiss watchmaker. So they are really open to, to interns, but they can't confine them, basically, which is a pity, I guess.
- [33:21]
Alamo Joseph
Definitely. So everybody who's on the fence and you want to do a career switch and you're not as young as Eric and I are anymore. Hit him up. Eric is a lovely guy, not just on the mic, but in real life. And I've actually now, since we recorded the first one, we've actually worked together. So he's not Dr. Jekyll and Hyde. Because some people put on their lab coats and the magnifying glass and the screwdriver in their hands turn into Draculas. But I've had the honor to have Eric in our atelier. And I can vouch for the fact that he's. He's even nicer. So I should have started by asking you during this episode, walk us through the moment. You got into the car, you arrived in Corinthia, and your. What did you do exactly in these six weeks? So here goes, Eric, you got in the car and then what?
- [34:20]
Erich van Lewa
1,500Km down south, driving through many, many tunnels in Austria. And on the Monday 10th June, I started basically. And basically before I drove to Austria, I sent all the formal documents that Richard needed to sign for my school because it wasn't in the end a formal internship for to finish my studies. So I applied Google Translate because of course the school doesn't apply for any English documents. So I translated them, every single one of them. Uh, and, and Richard is a very, let's say, stick to the rules type of guy. And one of the things that were in the documents that you needed to repair or slash service at least four different types of movements. Uh, and when I went there, my basic goal was to build my own movements from scratch, which I will apply in my own watch. But Richie said, no, no, no, according to your school, you need to do also some repair and maintenance work. So I have prepared you a couple of watches from customers of ours, some dating already back 20 years, being having the first movements, they had to quite recent movements with split seconds chronograph, for example. So the first weeks I was working on customer watches to, to disassemble, clean them and regulate them again. And in the meantime he said, look, if you're gonna make your own watch movements and watch parts, one thing that you also need to know is to make your own tools. Because if you have your own tools, you become much more efficient in your work. But also you reduce the risk of damaging parts, which are quite expensive because you have a specialized tool for that. So I spent many, many hours behind the Showblader 70 lathe doing lathe work. Also some milling work. I did finishing of parts. And the last weeks of my internship, I basically started building my own movements. So one must imagine that the main plates come in from the factory. They will be slightly Sandblasted to move away any burrs. Then all the jewels need to be put in, all the positioning pins, all the screw threads, everything needs to be put in from, from scratch up to a complete running movement. All the wheels, the pivots and the driving pinions need to, need to be riveted. The balance is made from eight components from start to scratch, from start to finish need to be assembled and tested, obviously. So that takes a lot of time. And I can tell now from my own experience how much time goes into making a very simple basic movement like this. It's not even a chronograph or a jumping second, it's just a basic plane movement. How much time and effort is needed to, to build a watch like that?
- [37:32]
Alamo Joseph
How many hours a day were you in the atelier?
- [37:34]
Erich van Lewa
Nine hours. Nine hours a day? Yes.
- [37:38]
Alamo Joseph
And what did you do with the other 15 with spotty Internet?
- [37:42]
Erich van Lewa
There was a bar next to my apartment and there was the European championships of football. So I, I, I, I watched some games. But without joking, I needed to make a daily report about my internship for, for school. So I was in the evening when I came home, I cooked and then I started working on my, my summary of the day, including pictures and what I've learned and what I would like to improve and sort of reflection on, on the, all the activities done. And I had many, many, let's say, philosophical questions with, with harboring during these days and oh, that was something to digest during the evening hours. And that's basically also what made this internship so valuable because we had a sort of Socratic approach, at least. Richard was asking me all the times questions about why do you do it like this? And why, why, why, why? Up to a point that, okay, now I understand basically what he wants to learn, teach me right at school you learn basically how to do things. And he told me why things are done in a certain way and why certain things should not be done in a certain way.
- [39:01]
Alamo Joseph
Would you want to have done an internship elsewhere? Because I don't think it's normal to do all three at the same atelier. Correct.
- [39:11]
Erich van Lewa
For Schronhove, no, as a matter of fact, for Schonhove, just one internship is already enough. And so the first two, I really did on my personal account. Personal ambition and instigation. Is that a English word? Only the third one, the last one was a formal one that I really needed to do to finish my studies.
- [39:37]
Alamo Joseph
So would you have liked to work at the ateliers or you're actually happy about the evolution of doing it three times.
- [39:45]
Erich van Lewa
I'm really happy about the evolution of doing things three times. And first and foremost, because that enabled me to compare between my first time and my last time. And I remember that the last day of my first time, I was asking to work on a split on a jumping second movement and I opened it and I disassembled the part and I was really like, holy shit, how can I ever make this? And now flash forward two years later, I think I did four or five movements with jumping second without any problem. And because you work on the same movements in the same company, you can easily follow your own progression, which is maybe a bit more difficult if you have different places for an internship.
- [40:33]
Alamo Joseph
If harperings would have turned you down, who would have been your next choice or what? Atelier or watchmaker?
- [40:44]
Erich van Lewa
Wow, that's a good question. And honestly, I think that my life maybe be different because what I learned, the choices I made so far is also basically because I had the experience at Hobby. And if I look at my fellow students who start the internship after this summer break, they all go to jewel shops and they will replace basically parts on movements that are handed in by customers. And that's something I really don't want to do. So in the case that Harboring would have turned me down and I would have ended up basically servicing mass products, I don't know if I would have ended up with the idea of starting my own watch brand. To be honest, Habrik put me basically on that line.
- [41:40]
Alamo Joseph
So because you went there, you created your own fortune by pursuing an internship that wasn't mandatory for your education. That's your own ambition, your own initiative. You create your own luck. But going there initially you did not had in mind that you wanted to start your own high end watch brand? Is that what you're saying?
- [42:02]
Erich van Lewa
That's what I'm saying exactly.
- [42:03]
Alamo Joseph
Wow.
- [42:04]
Erich van Lewa
Yes.
- [42:04]
Alamo Joseph
Okay. That's amazing. So it's not serendipity.
- [42:07]
Erich van Lewa
Yes, it is. It is.
- [42:13]
Alamo Joseph
So you should actually call your first two models Maria and Richard.
- [42:18]
Erich van Lewa
But then I would be a sort of copycat because they also give names to their watches.
- [42:21]
Alamo Joseph
Yeah, I'm just kidding. But I need to push you on an answer. So you got turned down in a hypothetical Twilight Zone, you got turned down by Maria and Richard. Who would you have hunted down and spammed and stalked to get an apprenticeship grant. Why?
- [42:42]
Erich van Lewa
Because I'm really impressed about what they're doing in, in the Netherlands. They are really high level, high quality watchmakers. And yeah, that's also a company you would like to work for. For sure.
- [42:59]
Alamo Joseph
I like this game so I'm going to do it on a high pace. Kurnefeld turns you down. Who's next?
- [43:04]
Erich van Lewa
Well, with the know how of today, I for sure Holt in his watches because how they step up the game each and every time, it's amazing. And it's a dynamic company with nice people. I would like to work there as well. Yes.
- [43:21]
Alamo Joseph
Next one. Holter says no. Who's next?
- [43:23]
Erich van Lewa
Maybe Benzinger, because Benzinger is a very small brand, but what they do is really brilliant. I've seen their movements in the harboring factory because they also do the finishing of the bridges themselves and they send the bridges back to harboring for final assembly. I'm really amazed about the quality, quality of their work. And I knew Benzinga already before I knew Henry. That's also a very small company. But focusing on a good idea, a personal idea, not about mass product, but making something good and in a traditional way. So Benzinga. Yes. You see, I like the smaller brands.
- [44:03]
Alamo Joseph
Yeah, you on the right. Literally that you're an artisano watchmaker watch brand. And would you though, would like to see the workings of a Patek Philippe or Vacheron Constantin or like a. Like let's call the mass market hotel luxury?
- [44:23]
Erich van Lewa
Yes, yes. Because I've been to a museum and of Patek Philippe and if you see what they are doing and how they have been doing it. But the thing is, maybe it's because of my late coming of age when it comes to watchmaking. I know from people who have been actually doing an internship at Jaeger or at Patek, is that you basically do a couple of years, one job and that's the only job you have to do before you go to the next because it's really hierarchical and you have to follow all the steps before you can reach to the point where you want to be. And I don't have the time to do three years, only hairspring counting. So I, I do it all in a. Not in a rush but in a shortcut way. So that, that's maybe also the reason to go for smaller companies where you have the opportunity to do that as well.
- [45:19]
Alamo Joseph
Amazing. So you spent six weeks there in Austria.
- [45:22]
Erich van Lewa
Yeah.
- [45:23]
Alamo Joseph
The Hubbings needs to sign off on your internship because now it was for school. Did they sign off?
- [45:28]
Erich van Lewa
Yes, luckily they did sign off. Yes.
- [45:31]
Alamo Joseph
Congratulations. You're back in Holland now. What are you graduated?
- [45:37]
Erich van Lewa
Uh, I will know after the, the holidays are ended. I handed in all my documents beginning of this week. Uh, And I got an out of offers reply, obviously that everything is closed. So I expect basically first week of September an answer, uh, about when I will get my uh.
- [45:55]
Alamo Joseph
Your diploma.
- [45:56]
Erich van Lewa
Yes.
- [45:57]
Alamo Joseph
And then what? You're going on a holiday yourself I assume? And then what summer is ended?
- [46:02]
Erich van Lewa
I'm working hard on finishing the parts. I have, I already got my lathe just before I went to Austria and today I worked a full day at the lathe to, to to make the good setups for the finishing of the parts. For example, the snailing of my ratchet wheel and of course I will let's say use quite some wretched wheels before I have the perfect setup. So I'm, I'm doing a lot of this kind of work. In the meantime, the first batch of dials, test dials are being made. As I told you, it will be a wooden dial. There is a small movie on my Instagram mass watch watches where you can see the some steps in the production process of the dial. So now it's really full pull on finishing the first watches.
- [46:57]
Alamo Joseph
When can I strap on my mass watch?
- [47:00]
Erich van Lewa
That's a very good question. But I still aim for end of this year, beginning of next year really.
- [47:07]
Alamo Joseph
So that's rather quick.
- [47:09]
Erich van Lewa
It is rather quick. But as I told you I have the movements. I'm waiting still for tools to do the galvanizing, the parts, the watch parts like the, to apply the 14 carats rose gold. I, I bought the machines but it takes some weeks before I will have it. So then I can also finish the parts the way I want to.
- [47:27]
Alamo Joseph
Are you going to opt for 4N or 5N?
- [47:29]
Erich van Lewa
5N? Yep. The thing is that what I also learned during this six weeks is that you never ever end investing in new tools. It's amazing how much you need to produce a watch the way you want to. I thought I had quite some tools and machines, but no, not even close to what everything that you would need to, to do it from, from scratch yourself. So during my stay in, in Austria I was buying still some parts. So my wife, when I came back, she said I put everything in your workshop because I don't know how many parcels came in but each and every time I thought this I need this, I need this I need. So it's a never ending investment.
- [48:19]
Alamo Joseph
Does Richard also collect the antique tools like many watchmakers do?
- [48:23]
Erich van Lewa
Yes, as a matter of fact he has a showroom on the, on the, on the ground floor where he has a milling machine and a drilling machine and really old tools and he's really really careful about them and he gives the machines also names. So that's. Yeah, he's really fancy about those tools.
- [48:43]
Alamo Joseph
If the TRTs fam, the community can help you. Where do you need help from the community?
- [48:49]
Erich van Lewa
I would like to receive the feedback when I will publish the first pictures of the dial enhanced combination and the finishing of the parts. I will publish that on Instagram in due time and any feedback is really valuable. And. And to give an example, after the first podcast I received a message from a nice guy and he said, look, I heard you about your podcast and your plans, but if I may give you an advice, please don't use a butterfly clasp on. On. On. On the. On the strap. Because if it's about the movement and the movement finishing, you just want to have a plane strap so that you can see the movement immediately. Well, that was a really useful advice. I like that. Those kind that. That kind of feedback.
- [49:40]
Alamo Joseph
Are you worried about the hardcore down cycle of the watch industry?
- [49:45]
Erich van Lewa
No, no, because the segment I'm aiming for, I don't think they are so depending on the. On the economic situation, to be honest.
- [49:58]
Alamo Joseph
What can you share more that you've not done in the previous episode? Can you elaborate a bit more about the daos because it was still a bit secretive and experimental. Let's say you weren't clear on your strategy yet for the dials because that is one of your. One of your more unique selling points.
- [50:21]
Erich van Lewa
Yeah. So the first five dials have been made by a colleague of mine who's really specialized in woodworking and actually he's now on holiday so when he's back I will go to his workshop to see the first pieces. And in the meantime I'm working on the dial, the chapter ring for the sub seconds and together with the high gloss finish of the dial and the matte finish of the chapter ring. I think at least in my imagination, I have a very nice combo. Especially if you add to that blued hands. That is a nice contrast of three different colors which match perfectly together. I think.
- [51:12]
Alamo Joseph
Eric, I can't wait to see it. I am actually very excited. I loved your journey up until now. Where in the future, at what milestone are you and I going to sit down for part three? Where is it that you think that it will be interesting for our dear listeners to catch up again?
- [51:33]
Erich van Lewa
If I finish my first watch and maybe if I'm going back to Austria to show Mr. Harding my first watch, that would be a nice moment because then we can get him on the show as well. Because I'M also curious about his opinion and he must be very honest and open. If he doesn't like it, he doesn't like it. But that's also nice if he shares that with the TRTS network because we are open and honest towards each other. If I follow all the chats in the group, so maybe that would be a nice opportunity.
- [52:06]
Alamo Joseph
Hereby a date confirmed and indeed our dear listeners, if you're not part of the TRTS community, Eric is an actual integral part, a member of the TRTS community. You can hit him up there, you can chat with him and as we've been saying nonstop, it's a community of equals and like minded spirits and we're very vocal but very respectful. So if you want to join, definitely join our community by sending David, Rob or I a DM and we'll send you an invitation link. And Eric, again, thank you so much for carving out a time while you're just back from Austria. Probably your wife wasn't too happy that I wanted to sit with you after she's missed you for six weeks.
- [52:51]
Erich van Lewa
That's why we go on holidays.
- [52:54]
Alamo Joseph
So thank you so much. I can't wait to see the developments up until the finished watch. I wish you all the best of luck. As you know, David, Rob and I are here at your service. So is the TRTS community. And to our dear listeners, thank you so much for taking the time to listen to this episode. You can find all the previous episodes on our official website www.therealtime.show. our Instagram handle is actually the same, it's herealtime show. If you want to support the show please do. Because we're independent. We have no revenue streams, we are not sponsored, we don't sell any content. We're truly independent. So what helps us is get more followers and especially downloads. So please subscribe like rate our show and definitely share it with like minded friends. If you have any questions, feedback and or criticism please send us a message. You can DM us and if you want to join the TRTS community, as I said before, send us a message as well. You want to chat directly with David, find him on Instagram at D A V A u C H E r Rob is at Rob N U D D S and me you can find at my full name Alombe Joseph and if you prefer to send us an email just add a first name to the email address at therealtan show. Same like our URL or ig handle. Stay sane and keep on ticking.