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Barrelhand Founder Karel Bachand Is Shooting For The Moon With New Monolith Watch Project
01:28:01
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- [00:07]
Alon Benjamin Joseph
And welcome to another edition of the Real Time show with me, your friendly neighborhood jeweler, aloman Joseph and the in house provocateur, David Vausher. Today, David and I are very honored and proud to welcome to the virtual studio the founder of Barrel Hand. I call him Carl as it's a Dutch name, but Americans call him Carol or French call him Carol. The Americans call him Carol. Welcome to the studio.
- [00:36]
Karel Bachand
Thank you, thank you. I'm excited to flow with you guys. There's good energy here.
- [00:40]
Alon Benjamin Joseph
Thank you so much for sitting down with us. You're on the west coast, I believe you're in San Fran.
- [00:46]
Karel Bachand
Yeah, Bay Area.
- [00:48]
Alon Benjamin Joseph
I actually am very pumped to be here because our regular listeners know that this show that Rob and I started is designed and made out of self interest because we want to talk to our peers and the people we look up to. And you, Kyle, are one of them. The first time I've encountered Barrow Hand was actually on our friends Ariel Adams blog. A blog to watch. Ah yeah, and it blew my mind because you and I the same obsession with Urberg. So should we use that as a segue to start off who you are and what Barrel Hand is? I'll shut up, mute my mic, sit back and enjoy the ride.
- [01:36]
Karel Bachand
Yeah, that sounds great. I actually, I wore my UR103 today because we were chatting over email and you mentioned you had just taken your 103 0.09 to the jeweler. So I felt it was fitting for the occasion.
- [01:52]
Alon Benjamin Joseph
Thank you so much. Because as you perfectly recalled, mine is indeed in the Urewerk atelier. I left it with them during Geneva watch day. So thank you so much for representing. And that begs the question, is this one actually made in Martin Fry, a Felix Baumgart's atelier? Is it one that you made?
- [02:13]
Karel Bachand
This one? I bought this one. I bought. This was like a grill piece that I had been working towards for a long time and never thought I would be able to like one day own an actual piece. But yeah, it was surreal. And actually next to me I have the watch box with the original UR202 that I had made an homage or you know, like recreated during my college days. So still got the OG3D printed one and then now I have uh, one of the originals that to me is the most classic. The 103. It feels like a mix of, you know, you have like super sci fi, very futuristic, but it's also, we were talking, it's like very art deco. It could be like 1920s, it could be 3020 and it would just fit in almost every occasion. So really cool piece and probably one of my favorites from Ehrich.
- [03:07]
David Vausher
I want to provide some important context here. I definitely want to understand your journey, but from the research that Alan sent me beforehand, like, I want to repeat this. You made an homage to an erwork in college. Like, all of those things are pretty remarkable. So it's kind of like if you wanted to learn guitar, I guess you could start with Hendrick, but it'd be pretty difficult. So could you please just walk the listeners through how that happened? And how do you even do that? I mean, how do you break it apart? Do you find drawing somewhere? I mean, what was the process to getting that done?
- [03:42]
Karel Bachand
Yeah, I can dive into it real quick. I didn't know anything about watchmaking prior to college, so I wasn't a watch collector. I knew Rolex, and then I thought an expensive watch would be a couple hundred bucks. But I didn't know there was a whole world, a whole industry around it. And I was going to school for mechanical engineering. I was watching YouTube one day and saw at the time, like, this was maybe 2012, I want to say the watch industry was blowing up with like all these cool CGI videos, exploded views. You see the gear trains and all this stuff. And that's kind of what got me hooked. I realized this is like an engineer's wet dream. There's an entire mechanical engine inside all of these watches. And I stumbled on Airworks 202 and I was like, man, I need to own one of those. And so I'm looking up the prices online and ended up being, you know, like the price of a house, basically. So it was like, it blew my mind that such a thing even existed. But it also made me realize, like, they're not using. I think of like, at the time, an expensive watch was like, oh, it's got diamonds or gold. And I was just impressed that the price you were paying for something like that was based on the engineering know how and the complexity of the piece. And just the fact that someone would dedicate five years of R and D to do something that tells the time in a fun and unique artistic way. That was just it. It kind of like piqued all those interests for me. So I wasn't able to buy one of those. I was college student at the time, so I thought the best next thing was to try to recreate it on my computer with a 3D modeling program. So for those that don't know, SolidWorks is like a 3D CAD program where you can basically draw lines and make parts that you would use to manufacture. So I kind of went step by step. I compiled hundreds of pictures off Google of the UR202, like top view, side views. I knew the overall dimensions from Earwork's website and then just created ratios to convert all the dimensions so they were super accurate to the original. And after a year of modeling this kind of on the side for fun, I had a fully functional 3D model on my computer. And then at that point I was like oh shit. Like it's, I have all the parts, I could basically 3D print it or you know, how could I go about, you know, maybe manufacturing it now since I have the parts. And that kind of led me on a journey to stumble into 3D printing. It wasn't necessarily top of mind, but every time I was trying to get quotes for CNC machining these micro mechanics, it's super expensive, especially if you just want to make a one off for yourself. It's just one part could be hundreds or $1,000 depending on the complexity. So that kind of deflated me. But then I started exploring 3D printing which was blowing up around that, that age and it just opened up a whole world for me. It allowed me to prototype multiple iterations and now I have like a fully working 3D printed ur 202 you could say. And after we published an article on a blog to watch and then ur work invited me out because they wanted to learn about the technology and met with Martin and Felix and they were amazing, super hospitable and very welcoming and just saw that I was a huge fan. They weren't trying to send you know, like a cease and desist. Like they saw that I was just geeking out on their stuff and wanted to study every detail. So they actually really inspired me to. They were like, you know, take this passion and put it towards, you know, some of your, your own designs, your own ideas. Like you have the capabilities and knowledge. So that really jump started starting my own company from there.
- [08:04]
David Vausher
So would you say it's your favorite watch brand even now or has has that evolved as you kind of move through the hobby?
- [08:09]
Karel Bachand
That's a good question. I still feel really strongly about ur work. I think they've just always been kind of the underdogs and I think their approach to it really changed the game. Especially if you go back to their first pieces, 1998 I think, and then 2003 with the 103, it's like no one was doing that at the time. So I have mad respect, I think opened up the world of watchmaking for a lot of people that it didn't have to just look like, you know, four lugs and a round dial. And I think throughout human history, like almost every watch was like that. So it's funny how, you know, one. One brand and, you know, MB&F was also a big part of this. But, you know, these brands really changed people's perception on what a watch could be beyond just a functional item.
- [09:08]
Alon Benjamin Joseph
It became art for our dear listeners that might never heard of you or Barrow Hunt. You are very space inspired, hence the love for U of EC and mbnf. You actually worked for NASA, didn't you?
- [09:25]
Karel Bachand
Yeah, so I did a research project. It was basically my. My senior project in college with NASA.
- [09:31]
Alon Benjamin Joseph
So you went from San Jose State University to NASA, worked for watches.com.
- [09:40]
Karel Bachand
Yeah, you guys know your stuff.
- [09:42]
Alon Benjamin Joseph
And then became an entrepreneur.
- [09:45]
Karel Bachand
Yeah, yeah. And. And everything in between. I had been working on my first project, which was Project one. So since, you know, I would say like junior year of college or even sophomore year, after I had finished the urwork project, I was basically full time on coming up with my own designs and, you know, in between classes or in between studying for finals, I was, you know, just designing and Prototyping Project 1, which became our first flagship piece that came out seven years later. So there was a lot of different stepping stones along the way that allowed me to do that. And 3D printing was a huge part of it too. I think to start your own brand would have been. I mean, it's so cost prohibitive to do R and D with traditional machining that having the ability to 3D print, you know, dozens of prototypes and just keep iterating on a college student budget is what allowed me to execute Project 1 to the full vision that I had in mind.
- [10:58]
Alon Benjamin Joseph
So let's do a quick intermezzo for our listeners that like visual support while listening. The Official website is Barrowhand.com B A double R E L H A N D dot com. If you want to Google Carrel Carl, his surname is Bachand. B A C H A N D. If you find him on LinkedIn, you'll find a link to that homage O project that's an awesome flicker page. So make. You'll find that. What does the name stand for? Kyle.
- [11:31]
Karel Bachand
It was just like a anagram of my first and last name. So it was kind of pieced together. Karel Bichond. And it just kind of was my username on social media. For a while, when I was documenting the Project one and kind of going through step by step how I was developing this watch. And then by the time I was launching it, I was like, oh, I think I'll just stick with the username as the brand name.
- [12:01]
David Vausher
I don't know if you've heard of a brand. I'm sure Alan has. Maybe you have too, Karel. But have you heard of Otnals by any chance?
- [12:09]
Karel Bachand
Oh, yeah, yeah, for sure.
- [12:10]
David Vausher
Okay. So apparently, and hopefully if I ever speak to the founders or maybe one of you two can confirm this, but Hautnaus is an anagram of nefchaten.
- [12:20]
Alon Benjamin Joseph
It is.
- [12:20]
Karel Bachand
It is beautiful.
- [12:21]
David Vausher
So there you go.
- [12:22]
Karel Bachand
The stars are aligned.
- [12:24]
Alon Benjamin Joseph
And the geek in me, Carl, is. I thought it was an anagram, but I missed the second R in.
- [12:29]
Karel Bachand
Yeah, yeah, not a full anagram, just a little play on it.
- [12:33]
Alon Benjamin Joseph
Okay, so you did the homage. You got the biggest respect from maybe the coolest cats in the watch industry, Felix and Martin. Then what?
- [12:44]
Karel Bachand
Yeah, the. The flight home. I was basically just sketching concepts of what I wanted Project one to be. And I realized quickly that I think the big drive for me, I wasn't wearing watches growing up. It wasn't something that I enjoyed wearing. It was more the engineering and technology behind it. So I really kind of put that at the forefront as I was developing Project 1, and for me, it became a research platform. So when I think about Project one, it's really a concept car, if you will, of showing off what's possible, going to the state of the art for different manufacturing technologies, different types of 3D printing, and just seeing what's the current state of the art and baking it into this watch. Because I think watches are a really good testing bed to show off kind of the upper limits of what's possible in engineering. You have super small parts. They need to be really precise. They're very complex. And so to me, the watch became just, you could say, a test platform for me to play around with these different technologies and try to show people a window to the future. Like get. Get an idea of, you know, what's to come, or actually what's already available. That almost feels like science fiction once you learn more about it.
- [14:16]
David Vausher
So we've got a running joke here, and I'll explain it in a second, but based on what you just said, what are your thoughts on Hublot?
- [14:23]
Karel Bachand
Hmm. I think the amount of flack that they get is largely undeserved. I get that. I think there's like a certain archetype of people that wear hublot and that maybe taints what they do or how the more prestigious watch collector looks at it. But to me, I mean, they're doing cool material research and engineering. And I mean, they have like triple axis tourbillons, like, baked into a 44 millimeter watch. Like, they're doing cool mechanical engineering and unique materials. I'm not like, huge on their design either. I think it's a little, like, gaudy for me. But you can't knock and disrespect, you know, the amount of. Know how that they have.
- [15:13]
David Vausher
Cool. Well, we can be friends now. The running joke is that the three of us on the show, Rob, Alan and myself, I think we stood up for them quite a bit, even in light of some of the things that you said. But they do phenomenal material science. I think they're some of the best in the business.
- [15:27]
Karel Bachand
Yeah, it's so cool. And I think. Yeah, it's just. To me, I think it's funny how, like, clickish different aspects of the watch industry is like. I don't know if it's just like the times we're in, but you go on like most watch magazines and like, media outlets now, and it's like people are just ripping apart every single watch release that comes out. No matter, like, what brand, it's. People just, I don't know, like, to complain or like to feel like they're the know it all. And to me, it's. It's such a cool art. Like, I. I don't know that there's a brand that I. I dislike out there. Like, there's designs I don't really resonate with. But I feel like so many people are just doing this for the passion and doing their own artistic expression. And I love seeing how that comes out in different brands. Everyone's got their own flavors that they're bringing to the table. And, you know, I don't want to just listen to classical music all the time. I want some Black Sabbath, some Led Zeppelin. I want some. You know, you can mix a little bit of everything. And yeah, I think it's cool that we have all these different flavors in one art form.
- [16:45]
Alon Benjamin Joseph
It's interesting that you said that the watch industry is clickish. Would you consider yourself part of that industry?
- [16:53]
Karel Bachand
I think during Project One, I. I was like, battling that a little bit. I definitely felt like an outsider. I mean, the US has virtually no watchmaking infrastructure, at least at the time that I was developing Project 1 and, you know, the Hub and kind of like the elite group is all coming from Switzerland. So it's just, I think I realized early on that I wasn't interested so much in the watchmaking side as I was with the engineering and technology. So. And you know, now with, with Monolith and the projects where we're developing, we're, we're not even a watch company in my eyes. We're a technology company. And one of the first tools we're developing is Monolith, but it happens to be a watch. But to me it's more representative of a hyper functional tool that's built for a new application.
- [17:54]
Alon Benjamin Joseph
I have two questions that I'm begging to ask. First one, have you met Josh Shapiro in South Cali?
- [18:01]
Karel Bachand
I have not met, but we've chatted over email. We had, I had this idea a while back for this type of like Kyosh style that we were brainstorming ways to execute. But he's a great dude. I love what he's doing. And yeah, I just love to see different expressions of the art here in the US too. And the last 10 years there's been a pretty big push. And I think what will really strengthen the US infrastructure is people working together. Everyone's going to have different skill sets and there's not one watchmaker in the US that's going to be the jack of all trades. So what the Swiss have done really well is they've set up an entire network. They've connected the dots of this is the dial supplier, this is the case supplier. And then there's these larger groups that basically consolidate and connect all those dots for people that want a one stop solution to making a watch. And the US doesn't have that right now and I don't know if it needs that. But I think what will really excel the development out here is people like Josh Shapiro or Keaton, Myrick and Oregon. You know, there's so much knowledge and skill sets out here. It's more of just, you know, connecting those dots and bringing those people together.
- [19:29]
David Vausher
As you were talking, I was just trying to think of some of the other names that American Watchmaking and Weiss, Cameron Weiss comes to mind.
- [19:36]
Karel Bachand
Yeah, he's amazing. He's such a cool dude.
- [19:39]
David Vausher
And the other one, and there's more, but the other one that comes to mind that I don't, I don't know if they're based in California, but Devin Treadworks is another one.
- [19:47]
Karel Bachand
They were so cool.
- [19:48]
David Vausher
And as I'm thinking about it, you know, on one hand, like you said, the Swiss have this infrastructure, but would you say that Maybe it sort of confines them a little bit to a lane. Whereas if you're in a place like the States where there isn't maybe that infrastructure, but there is a lot of just get em attitude. Everyone's like, well I can't do the watches that exist now, so what can I do? And then you end up with things like barrel hand. I mean, what are your thoughts on that?
- [20:13]
Karel Bachand
Oh man, I have so much to say on that, honestly, because I think early on I felt at a disadvantage because we were kind of like outside of the hub of the watch industry. But I realized, you know, especially being in the Bay Area, we, we have so many other flavors that we can bring into watchmaking that the traditional watch industry is not connected to. Like 10 minutes from where I went to school and where I ended up doing my senior project was NASA Ames Research Center. So it's like you, you build contacts there, you learn, you know what kind of tools and projects they're working on. And we have one of the biggest tech hubs out here. So you just kind of approach the problem differently or you see new problems that maybe the watch industry isn't necessarily tuned in with. Like we have this new chapter of space exploration that from my eyes where I'm at is completely blowing up. We're sending rockets almost weekly to go into orbit. We're going to the space station back and forth. We just had our first successful moon mission a couple months ago. It's blowing up. And to us we saw that as an opportunity of okay, there's this new chapter. It's super harsh, rugged conditions, it's largely uncharted. No one's building tools for it in the watch industry. I mean there's been watches that have happened to work for that environment, but we saw that as an opportunity to build something from the ground up that meets those requirements for the next chapter of space exploration.
- [21:55]
David Vausher
We geek out on market based stuff, on the technical stuff. I was thinking about this 3D printing. I've done a little bit of it, but I think in a lot of people's minds it's still just a hobbyist thing. And it's plastic filament and it's flimsy in the end. Can you comment specifically on the techniques that you use? I mean are they comp. A watch obviously is to, you know, go through magnetism pressures if it has a water resistance rating, just general kind of abuse over, over life having it on your wrist. I mean when you 3D printed it, did you have to compromise anything in terms of all of those attributes as opposed to if you could just have someone do it in Switzerland for you. Or is this something that goes like toe to toe in terms of the final product once you're done with it?
- [22:41]
Karel Bachand
I think what excites me is because we're outside of the watch industry and we're really a technology company. We've just been connecting with some really cool leaders in different industries. And like you're mentioning 3D printing, I think, is a really good example of that. Where I know a lot of people still think of it as like, you know, a plastic extrusion and it's kind of like cheap parts, maybe for prototyping. And that's kind of what it was when I started out. And what blows my mind is in 2010, when I was using a 3D printer in high school, we had this state of the art plastic printer. It was maybe doing 0.3 millimeters of resolution in plastic. And that machine costs like 100k. And now we're 3D printing for Monolith, for example, in just about any material you can think of. Like for monolith, the material we're using is an aerospace alloy that you can only 3D print, and it's called Scalmoloi. And it's the weight of aluminum, but the strength of titanium. And we're printing that at around 0.02 millimeters in print resolution. So it's just insane. You can basically print the tolerances straight into it. There's no pores like what people think of. It's a solid monolithic crystal structure when it's printed. And we can do some funky stuff that you would never be able to do with CNC machining. So, like, for example, with monolith, we need to insulate the internals as much as possible. For space exploration, it gets to minus 120 Celsius to plus 120 Celsius. So super harsh conditions. And we basically 3D printed an air core straight into the 3D printed chassis. And it acts as, you know, kind of like a double pane window. It just creates an air pocket and protects the movement or engine even more. So it's things like that where I get really excited because you're introducing new materials. The print resolution is getting, you know, beyond where you can almost bake intolerances. And you're able to do complex geometries that would have been impossible to do with CNC machining.
- [25:09]
David Vausher
You know, I think the Swiss tend to have this view of like, you know, we're, we're Good. We know what we're doing here. Is this something that they're, you know, they looked at you and they were like, huh, like we should try that. Or is it like they were just doing it in parallel and they're working on it now and we just maybe don't see that as consumers. I mean, what are your thoughts on that?
- [25:28]
Karel Bachand
I think so. I'm really excited to see the watch industry adopted because I think there's huge potential there and you have a lot of brands already doing it. Like Holton Rich is a really good example. They're doing really cool pieces. They just came out with like their ornament nouveau and it's beautiful. I think slowly people will change their perception on what 3D printing is from just like a cheap plastic material. And I think the watch industry historically is very slow moving. They're kind of dinosaurs and they want to stick to the roots. They want to stick to what works. And I think that's very valid if you're trying to do a luxury watch that's based on heritage. But if you're trying to innovate and create new things, you need to kind of like open up to these novel technologies. And 3D printing is a good example. And I already see some brands like ur work was really quick to pick it up. When I showed them the 3d printed ur work that I had made, they. They asked for recommendations and we got them set up with like a. I think they ended up going with a Formlabs 3D printer and they would start doing prototypes for, you know, like just design concepts. But I haven't seen many people develop mechanisms with 3D printing which you can also do. So it's still, I think there's a lot of like pickup and opportunities still on the table. And because it's kind of this older industry and it's kind of conservative, there's tons of room for innovation. So that's what really excites me is I mean the materials and technologies we're using is very new to me and I get really excited about it. And it's things that a lot of people might have not even heard of. So it feels like out of science fiction almost.
- [27:22]
Alon Benjamin Joseph
I'm very happy you mentioned my fellow Dutchman, Michiel holting. Besides the two of you who has serial produced watches that are 3D printed.
- [27:33]
Karel Bachand
Besides YouTube, I remember there was a Vortic watches also us and they were taking like old pocket watch like American movements and kind of retrofitting into 3D printed cases. But to be honest, I, I don't know of many brands that are doing it. I think Holton Rich is really at the forefront of changing people's perception, creating something that's like really beautiful and not what people think of with 3D printing. And, and then for us at Barrel Hand, we're really focused on the technology side of kind of pushing the limits and introducing this technology more from a functional standpoint.
- [28:17]
David Vausher
One thing I looked at on your designs, how much of your design I'm trying to think how to word this comes from, we can only do this because it's 3D printed. So in other words, that's you realizing your artistic vision and how much of it is in a way, I suppose not compromise, I don't think the word, but sort of like I, I just, I can't do it any other way. So I'm just going to have to 3D print it and then my design is going to kind of adapt itself in the process. So how much of it is artistic vision and just technical compromise?
- [28:47]
Karel Bachand
Yeah, that's a great question because I think Project 1 was full on artistic vision. It was just a mechanical sculpture that happened to tell the time and I was just playing around with every 3D printing technology available and setting up the infrastructure here in the US Whereas with Monolith it's, it's like a completely different design approach. So it's, it's been really fun to work on because there's a lot of constraints and requirements. And so we just built the watch from the ground up, looking at what are the EVA tests. Uh, so for people that don't know, that's extravehicular activities, that's spacewalks. Anytime an astronaut goes outside of the space station, what is the conditions there? And so there's a list of tests that the watch has to go through. But we basically just reverse engineered, we said let's, let's look at the tests, let's look at the failures of current standard issue watches and take as many of those learnings and just build the watch from the ground up, totally based off specs. And for me that was a good challenge because there's a lot of really cool technology out there, but it doesn't necessarily fit the bill for the application. So you do have to be restrained. And ah, this is an amazing cool like science fiction technology. But if it's not serving the purpose, then you, you know, I, I can't justify putting it in. It needs to perform and it needs to hit these metrics. Otherwise it's just a gimmick and that can be cool for another kind of, like, concept project, like Project One, but for Monolith, it's very utilitarian focused, I.
- [30:33]
David Vausher
Guess, kind of on that point. And again, sticking to some of the nuts and bolts of this, you know, there's a big push, or there was about, you know, 10 years ago at a vertically integrated everything, you know, in house, you started, out of necessity, outsourcing.
- [30:45]
Karel Bachand
Yeah.
- [30:47]
David Vausher
What are your views on maybe as you progress, verticalizing some of that, or maybe kind of staying a little bit dispersed as you are now? I mean, what's your. What are your thoughts on that? What's your vision for the future?
- [30:58]
Karel Bachand
I think the setup we have is perfect, honestly, because if we try to vertically integrate, we're going to spend a lot of money and time integrating something that might become outdated in five years. And so what's exciting for me is I just. I mean, I do it for fun. We just kind of, like, look around and see what new technologies are around, and we kind of add it to our portfolio. We talk about what we're doing with these companies, and sometimes we find an opportunity to kind of integrate the technology. But I think because we're not tied down to a specific vertical integration, it gives us tons of flexibility. And as soon as there's some new novel Metal 3D printing technology, we can just switch gears and we don't have to, you know, worry about, oh, well, we put so much money into the 3D printing tech that was relevant five years ago, and now we're spinning around. And I think what's really cool in the process is you meet a lot of amazing people that are super passionate about what they do, and they're the pros at these technologies. I can never expect to understand the depth of what they know. So I'd much rather work with the industry leading people and kind of just collaborate and make something cool. And seeing their passion come out of what they do just bakes in a lot more excitement for me into the final piece that we're making.
- [32:33]
David Vausher
On the business side, I hear you say we. I've heard you say that a couple times. It was obviously just you. That was Barrowland. How has the company grown since that first idea?
- [32:44]
Karel Bachand
So Project 1 was basically just me and we worked with. I mean, I can't say it's just me, because really we worked with almost 10 different suppliers here in the US to make that happen. And each one of them brought their own flavors to the table. So we had, for example, Gianna. She made the leather, like, hand Stitched bison leather straps out in Arizona. We have our watchmaking friends out in Connecticut. G and D watchmaking. They were responsible for all the assembly, finishing, testing. So in a way it was a whole team, but they weren't, you know, it's kind of the setup we have now. It's not necessarily that they were on full time, but we just wanted to work with the best of the best for each field. And after Project 1, one of our customers, Michael Sorkin, he was coming from the 3D printing industry and also a big watch collector and investor entrepreneur, and he was excited to be a part of it beyond owning a project one. So we had been brainstorming back and forth what that would look like, and he ended up joining the company and investing. And so now it's me and Michael Sorkin as co founders of kind of this next chapter where we're going into developing space tools for the next chapter of space exploration. And then we have Nicholas Klaus, who's also in charge of communications. And then the rest is basically all a supply chain we've set up of different partners and manufacturers. Like Materialize in Germany, they do 3D printing. We have nanofiche technology. Out in Rochester, New York, they're doing the memory disk integration. So it's all kind of a collab effort, you could say.
- [34:45]
David Vausher
So I want to focus in on something you said because it dovetails perfectly in my next question. And I think it's super important because what you said was you're basically a supplier of space equipment, to paraphrase, but you're obviously selling to consumers. And I think that's very similar to a company like Marathon that supplies military and they happen to sell watches to consumers. So where I'm getting at with this is that something that comes up a lot between Alan, Rob and myself, just three of us then on the show, is that the watch market is taking a downturn. It's affecting people differently. Right. But at the same time, you're a very niche brand. So how have you seen, how have you been affected by what the market's doing? And how might that be sort of mitigated by the fact that maybe you don't see yourself as a consumer brand, but rather a maker of tools to industry first and foremost?
- [35:38]
Karel Bachand
I think that's a good question. I think the watch industry is very focused on the luxury segment, and I think it's kind of lost its necessity for innovation. If you look at pre 70s, like Quartz Crisis, I mean, watches were always tools. It was always navigational tools, exploration tools, and There was a ton of innovation going on, and then now you look at a lot of those exploration adventure brands, and they're purely luxury. And I don't think they can really pivot from that brand identity. They've really like, boxed their themselves into that identity. And it works great if you're trying to sell a luxury product, but it makes it harder to kind of shake that narrative and shake that identity, to innovate and kind of go into different realms. So for us, I see it as a huge advantage where we're, we're very flexible, and I don't feel that what the watch industry is doing is really affecting us. It's true that that's maybe our, our target demographic in some ways, but I feel like I miss the days of brands just doing stuff because they feel passionate about it and not necessarily doing it because they think that that's what's tre like. Oh, well, you got to do blue dial this year or green dial this year. It's like the brands that stand out and I think will continue to thrive are the ones that are doing just really cool and unique stuff and they're doing their own thing, and the rest is in the stars. So for me, I don't really think about it too much. I just focus on what we're doing. I see this next chapter of space exploration. I personally get really excited about it. We're basically going. I mean, we're already setting up infrastructure to build moon bases. It's coming quicker than people think, and we're right on the pulse of it. And so we're focused on building tools for this next chapter that can meet all those requirements. And I think with that, I mean, one, it's a huge industry that will boom in the next couple years. It already has. And you also have a lot of people that want to live vicariously through it. Maybe you and I won't be going to the moon anytime soon, but to kind of be a part of that next chapter and own an actual tool that astronauts are also using, I think is really alluring to live vicariously through it.
- [38:17]
Alon Benjamin Joseph
It's almost rhetorical. I love the triple F. Form follows function. I guess you guys are all about that. Now let's talk about the functionality because it seems a bit like a boy science fiction dreams, you're saying you literally are making watches that can be used in space and on different planets. So maybe for the ignorant people like me, let's walk through the monolith, because Project 1 is a closed chapter, right? You made 10 30k a pop, you lost a lot of money there because everybody can imagine you didn't make money. Yeah, basically you're a man on a mission. Literally. You're currently working on the monolith. It's only $8,750 and I dare to say only because it's bonkers what you guys are making. And by the way, quick intermezzo, kudos because you're not only inspired by the guys that I love at Uwerk, but also Max Busser and all of his friends because that's the setup you guys are also following. It's a collective.
- [39:39]
Karel Bachand
Yeah.
- [39:39]
Alon Benjamin Joseph
Yeah. That's awesome. So it's another tribute to mbnf. Right now, our dear listeners, you can pre order a monolith by Barrow Hand down payment only 20%. That's refundable, right?
- [39:54]
Karel Bachand
Yep.
- [39:55]
Alon Benjamin Joseph
Is it a limited edition? Is it an open run project? Let's talk commerce. And then we go back to daydreaming again.
- [40:03]
Karel Bachand
Deal. Yeah, it's a non limited series. So we're really focused on the astronaut application. That's what's driving this project. So we're really just looking at what are the specs, what are the conditions of space exploration and building a watch that can meet those requirements and pass all the tests and outperform the current standard issue. So with those specs in mind, you know, it's, it's going to be overkill for the average civilian. And we kind of realize that, you know, no one's going into minus 120 Celsius or going into a vacuum of space. But I think knowing that your watch can withstand those environments is kind of cool. Especially if an astronaut is also rocking that same tool that you're wearing. So we're very aware that that's a large demographic for us too. That's what's going to ultimately fund the development, besides grants. So we're really kind of tapping into both fronts where we're trying to focus on the purity of the mission and what we're developing and why we're developing it. But we understand that there's not a ton of astronauts out there. And so we're also looking for people that are ready to be a part of this next chapter and kind of embark on this journey with us.
- [41:43]
David Vausher
Alan, I feel like maybe Barrelhead should start being aware of Omega Spies all over the place. That's been, that's been their like meal ticket for the past. What? I mean, shoot. Going on 60. Yeah. More than 60 years now.
- [41:57]
Karel Bachand
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [41:58]
Alon Benjamin Joseph
But let's, let's, let's pause for a moment. Everybody's using and abusing NASA, space exploration, esa. It's all about a spiel. It's about marketing, it's about storytelling, but actually zero functionality. The irony of it is that Omega went for the X33. Right. So they moved away from mechanical. So to steer it back to the chronologic order of monolith. Because I love what you did on the website. And I think that's also a bit inspired by OVE because they make chapters for each watch project that you can scroll vertically so you have a beautiful button on barrow hand.com discover monolith. You scroll down, you come to T/10 2D printed chassis. The case. You want to make it a monolith because you want to make a sturdy chassis light. You cut out the lugs because you say weight is very important in space exploration. Now you've already discussed about that air lock around the movement. When I look at a beautiful picture, a monochrome picture of the raw 3D printed case, you'll see that the literary is air in the inner ring where basically the movement should be suspended. Give us again a quick elevated pitch. Why there is air there?
- [43:29]
Karel Bachand
Yeah. So I think in order to like go into what monolith is like geared towards, it helps to understand what the conditions are for space. So we mentioned temperature minus 120 to plus 120. You also have just raw costs. So for example, sending a kilogram to the ISS market rate right now is about 20,000 US. If you want to send that same kilogram to the moon, the market rate right now is about 1.2, 1.3 million. So that's one factor. You have space radiation or solar radiation. You have the vacuum of space. And so we kind of go from the ground up. And so the monolith chassis, the air core helps insulate the engine inside from the extreme temperatures. But also by having an air core, you lighten up the whole watch. And the finished entire, you could say Monolith is right around 1 ounce. So it's ultra lightweight. It's not because we're trying to hit some ultra lightweight record. It's just out of functionality. It reduces cost to get it up to the space station. So it's kind of like a two form function. Yeah.
- [44:53]
Alon Benjamin Joseph
So literally triple F form. Now it begs the question, has it been on a astronaut's wrist already?
- [45:05]
Karel Bachand
Not yet, but we're working on it. So that's definitely in the horizon where we're talking with people at NASA to make that happen. As you can imagine, there's a lot of bureaucracy and red tape. We can talk about it off air too, but for Omega, it's their billion dollar baby. They want to protect that kind of historical effort. And for us, we're just focused on the functionality side of it. So we have a few people lined up and interested and now it's kind of going through the next step. So we just finished all our, like, final testing. We're kind of going through all the EVA testing in house. Next step will be doing like an official certification and then ultimately get it up on the space station.
- [45:59]
Alon Benjamin Joseph
That's amazing. And we will not do it off air because this is a real time show. We do everything on air and on the record. We are literally unaffiliated. We are independent. We're not sponsored. We don't take sponsor money from anybody. So FYI, Cargo. Yeah. A quick side step while scrolling literally up and down vertically on your website is you guys have the mission section. So a lot of brands might have that on their website as well. But you guys literally have lunar payload mission.
- [46:35]
Karel Bachand
Yeah.
- [46:35]
Alon Benjamin Joseph
So you had stuff go up into space.
- [46:38]
Karel Bachand
Yeah. So we had our first successful hardware integration in March last year. It also marked, or this year actually 2024. And that marked the first time the US had gone back to the moon since the Apollo mission. So we were the first watch brand to touch the moon since then, you could say. And that was with intuitive machines. And now we're also gearing towards two more missions. So we have a moon mission lined up end of this year. We're partnering with the United Nations, UNESCO to do a lunar time capsule project with them. Kind of like a moon museum, you could say. And then we have another hardware integration next year with Astrobotics, another leading US private company for moon landers. So we're on all the major upcoming moon missions for basically the next chapter of NASA's CLPS program, Artemis program to develop a base on the moon and a permanent presence.
- [47:48]
David Vausher
That's awesome. And actually, I think Alain, you were the one that coined the expression at the real time show was the Rolodex of the industry. I think we're all about connecting people. And I guess, do I remember correctly, Alan was when Rob was working with Fortis, was it to basically send their watches up on a. On an atmospheric balloon for testing for space? Is that, is that correct?
- [48:08]
Alon Benjamin Joseph
They did indeed. So Rob was actually at that Swedish space base, not station, but base, where they shot, I believe, 12 Fortis watches into space.
- [48:21]
Karel Bachand
Ah, yes, I remember. They're doing cool stuff too.
- [48:25]
Alon Benjamin Joseph
They are, they are. But you guys are literally light years ahead. I'm kind of breaking my own rule of being chronological. But it also begs the question, you said earlier you are not a watch company.
- [48:41]
Karel Bachand
Correct.
- [48:42]
Alon Benjamin Joseph
So just a quick side. So before I again take the story away from the monolith, because I want to Finish the T minus 10 back, T minus 1 and 0. But what's in the pipeline? Very quickly, Kyle.
- [48:56]
Karel Bachand
So beyond monolith, we're focused on tools for the next chapter of space exploration. So the first logical step is this time only monolith. Time is critical for missions and redundancies in space exploration. And so given our background too, with Project one and the watch industry, it was a very logical first tool to step into. The next one will be building off the foundation of the time only monolith and developing a chronograph. So we're kind of going with building a solid foundation. That's time only. But then that will go into a chronograph, and then we have other tools down the road that will be. As we're going into space exploration, it's not just the technical kind of like, hard engineering side. I think there's a lot of psychological sides of space exploration that we're interested in exploring. So it's a little bit of art, culture and technology and building tools that will allow people not just to survive in space, but enjoy their time in space.
- [50:14]
David Vausher
Love it, actually, as Alan would say, again, an Intermezzo. Have you ever heard of or seen the show for all mankind by any chance?
- [50:20]
Karel Bachand
I've been recommended, so I'm new if I haven't seen it.
- [50:24]
David Vausher
Okay. So, yeah, for all listeners out there, it's basically a show that derives from the premise of what if the Soviets had won the space race and that had then encouraged the US to really keep at it? You know, where would we be now? And it's well done. It's well done. I think the first season might be a little more compelling than others because it's a very interesting what if question. But yeah, I want to hear you speak. I just think there's no way that you can't not watch the show.
- [50:51]
Alon Benjamin Joseph
We just keep talking about NASA. What about different space exploration agencies, authorities, nations.
- [51:02]
Karel Bachand
Yeah, I think what's exciting is a lot of the new chapter is privately being run. So you have lots of different private companies building these moon landers, and there's a lot of innovation happening from that. So of course you have NASA that's kind of funding a lot of These you have European Space Agency. Japan has been doing a big push, China as well. India just had their first moon lander attempt, I believe. So there's a lot of innovation happening across, not just with NASA, but it's kind of a global effort. And I think the only way we're going to sustain and survive as a civilization on the moon and beyond is if we're, if we're working together. It's not just going to be a singular company or a singular country.
- [51:55]
Alon Benjamin Joseph
Let's go back to T minus 9.
- [51:58]
Karel Bachand
Yeah, for sure. So for those that don't know each, we've basically been doing deep dives on every feature of the watch. So T minus 10 that Alon was mentioning is the chassis. And we kind of talk about, we do an article that deep dives into the specs, the logic behind it, what we're trying to hit and how we came up with the solution. And we're going through the watch feature by feature and kind of exploring what are the technical challenges and how we, we go about solving it. Um, so, you know, there's so many different components. I actually don't remember what T minus 9 is on the website. If you have that handy.
- [52:48]
Alon Benjamin Joseph
T minus 9 is the window. And it's very, very interesting because the speedy fans always want the OG with plexi because of the shattering story. So I'm very curious what you guys have.
- [53:02]
Karel Bachand
Yeah, that's great. That's actually a good one. That kind of encapsulates a lot of the different requirements of space exploration. So with the window, we looked at different options. Obviously Omega's been using Hess light, which is basically just acrylic. It's kind of like a brand name of acrylic. And the reason they moved away from mineral or sapphire is because if you're on the space station and you crack your crystal, it's not just a little bit of glass shrapnel on the floor. It's basically floating everywhere and it's pretty harmful and dangerous if it's hard to contain. So that's a huge factor. There's metrics on how strong that window has to be. So we kind of went with what the windows are structurally designed to withstand, even in like the cupola. So like the windows on the space station and we basically just reverse engineered it. So we tried a bunch of different materials. Of course acrylic was interesting, but it scratches up a lot. I think that's one of the big knocks on it. I always felt personally like it was a little like cheap. But if it's functional. I think it has good merit. I just felt that the scratch resistance was limiting. So we looked at Sapphire and we also looked at this new material called transparent aluminum, which is really cool and is any Star Trek fans out there, it's, it comes, the name comes from that and it's basically what it sounds like. It's an aluminide glass. So alumina based glass that is supposed to dent more or less when it gets impacted. So we looked into that and then we also tested actually the prototype I have here has some transparent aluminum, so really cool characteristics. And we tested it side by side with another lab optic Sapphire called Seaplane Sapphire. And it's basically orienting the grain structure. And we did drop tests on all of those and the transparent aluminum was interesting, but it didn't perform phenomenally better than traditional Sapphire or Hesalite for that matter. And it's really good for complex shapes. But for a flat window we actually found the Seaplane Sapphire was two and a half times stronger than traditional Sapphire. So it meets the requirements for IVA use. Anything inside the space station. It won't shatter under those like impacts ratings that they have. And it also has the added benefit of it's not going to scratch like a traditional acrylic. The other cool feature about Seaplane Sapphire is it actually indents. So it has this what we call anti spalling effect where it won't just shatter into a million pieces, it preserves better even if there is a heavy impact, kind of like a windshield glass, it will keep, contain and kind of just dent instead. So that's also a nice added bonus of that. And of course we wanted to use transparent aluminum because that sounded cool. But it kind of goes back to what we were saying earlier of, you know, not just baking something high tech because it sounds cool but has to meet the final purpose in testing.
- [56:42]
Alon Benjamin Joseph
That sounds awesome. And can we conclude that you've not decided upon what you're going to use then?
- [56:49]
Karel Bachand
We're pretty set on the Seaplane Sapphire since it's hitting almost two and a half times what traditional Sapphire like Sapphire you would see in any like watch. So the strength is there, the anti spawning is there. We'll do more testing as we go through the certification process, but from our internal tests it's above and beyond what would be needed for the impact rating on the space station.
- [57:19]
Alon Benjamin Joseph
But you could pivot?
- [57:20]
Karel Bachand
We could, but I don't. If something opened up I would be super interested. But as of now it's definitely the leader. And given that we're planning to launch end of this year. We'll be sticking with that, but it might continue to iterate with time if we find some new tech that outperforms.
- [57:41]
Alon Benjamin Joseph
So you opened up the pre registration earlier this year. Can you say how many were ordered already and when the first batch will be delivered?
- [57:49]
Karel Bachand
Yeah, I can speak on that. So the first batch will be limited to 20 pieces and we're going to fulfill the first 20 before the end of the year. And we haven't really announced or launched it, but we already have more than half of it reserved. So the next batch will only take a few months after it'll go into 2025 and we'll be fulfilling those accordingly. The next batch of 50 to 100 and we're not limiting it, so it's just going to be as we produce and basically we'll be sending them out.
- [58:30]
Alon Benjamin Joseph
So if I order today, I'm still in the 24 batch.
- [58:34]
Karel Bachand
Exactly, exactly, yeah.
- [58:36]
Alon Benjamin Joseph
Okay, so T minus eight case back.
- [58:40]
Karel Bachand
That one. It sounds kind of boring because a case back is you don't think about it much. But it was an opportunity for us to explore hardware and servicing standards on the iss. So with the case back we looked at different, you could say water resistant solutions or pressure resistance in this case. And there's also different tools that are not necessarily available on the space station, so they don't have, you know, a watchmaking bench up there. So we kind of went at it as a more engineering approach, you could say. And so all the hardware that we're using on the caseback is standardized Torx T6 hardware which can be found on the ISS. It's easier to work with from people that we've talked to. There's been servicing done on Omega Speedmasters up in space and you can imagine a flathead screw, it just slips and you're also in a zero gravity, you have to strap it down. So we kind of looked at what tools were available and how we could simplify that whole process to make it as plug and play as possible.
- [59:53]
Alon Benjamin Joseph
T minus 7 Airlock Crown of course, my pride and joy. Orange crown.
- [59:59]
Karel Bachand
Yeah, that was a fun one actually because we ended up doing a lot of real world testing with it. And so the airlock crown, we wanted something that was resistant to the temperatures and vacuum of space. So that was actually one of the gripes and a lot of the failure points when they were doing EVA testing for the Apollo program. I think I forget the other brand. I think it was Rolex and Longines that didn't pass the EVA test and almost all the failures were coming from a thermal vacuum testing. So it's basically you're in an extreme temperature and you're adding the pressure of being in vacuum, so you kind of have this back pressure effect. So we really wanted to focus that feature of the crown on these metrics and learn from those past mistakes. So we kind of went overboard on it. It can definitely perform in vacuum, in space, within those given temperatures. And we also made it super overkill for any diving applications someone would want to do with it. So the last pressure testing we did, we got it down to we actually maxed out the machine. It was at 580 meters, which is double the deepest scuba dive ever recorded. So it will definitely be fine for any recreational diving and desk diving that people do. The other cool feature that we baked into it was its ability to be operated in these environments. So for example, if you wanted to change time zones underwater for some reason, or even just wind the watch, you can, you can do that too. So we were playing around with that for a while. We have a couple dives that my business partner Michael went on where he would go down and, you know, set the time underwater, pop it back in. And yeah, it's really cool to see because I think, you know, you're always told not to pop out your crown or even unscrew your crown during any water activities. So this one's kind of, you know, overkill to where you don't have to think about it and you can just use it in any environment however you want.
- [62:31]
David Vausher
Ooh, I, I think every listener is like twitching now because if you want to start a debate, you say like, okay, dive chronograph, activate underwater or not. And then just sitting back and watch. So interesting to hear. Um, okay, please talk about six, which is the movement. And I, I don't, I don't want to do it a disservice, cuz I'm sure you've done some hot rodding to it. But number five is the one I want to talk about, so please talk. Take us through the movement first and then let's talk number five.
- [62:57]
Karel Bachand
Yeah, sure. So six was, yeah, the engine. And we looked at a lot of options. I mean, you could go super exotic, experimental. We looked at those silicon escapements where they're like monolithic and very simple in some ways, but they're kind of new and experimental and there's not enough data on it. We could have gone the really high end movement route, like doing something custom with Vaushay for example. But we, we realized, you know, if, if NASA was approaching this problem, how would they go about it? They're not going to go the artisanal, beautifully finished route. They're going to go with what is the most robust, like you could say mass produced. You know, something that is scalable and can be really refined over time. You don't necessarily want something artisanal. So we ended up going with the Sellita SW301B and then we modified and upgraded it for our specific conditions. So what I loved about it is there's probably millions of those watches already out with that movement in the world. And they've gotten a lot of field data and refinements over the last two decades almost since they built that movement. So it's a really optimized system and then we just worked off of it to make it fit for the space application.
- [64:29]
Alon Benjamin Joseph
The big myth of Kant use automatic movement. So a movement, mechanical movement with a rotor. Why did you guys opt for that? Another hand wound one.
- [64:42]
Karel Bachand
We did more research and we're actually, we came up with a, we have a testing protocol that we're outlining for some future astronaut testing to research. Basically that because from all the theory I've looked at and if you just look at mechanical principles, I don't see any reason a winding rotor wouldn't work in space. I think we classically think of it as, oh, there needs to be a strong gravitational field and it's going to, you know, oscillate the mass easier. But as soon as you're moving, you're still exerting some like momentum and inertia onto these masses. So I, from what I'm reading online and like the research we've been doing it, it seems like it should work just as well in space. It might need to be optimized, but we're going to start doing some testing once we get a watch up there to, to learn more and see what, what the truth is. Maybe it's somewhere in between.
- [65:45]
David Vausher
I did some engineering as well in college and I tend to agree with you. I don't see there would be a problem. I think it's interesting you picked the SW300, which for listeners is a ETA 2892 derived movement. And all due respect to the 2824, I think it shows up a lot. So just from an interest point of view, I think it's a neat choice. You said you'd done modifications. Is that something that you are partnering with the Swiss Core or do you have you brought some of that in house or maybe outsourced it.
- [66:11]
Karel Bachand
In the US we worked with Solida directly. They, they know their stuff better than anyone. So we just kind of told them what our requirements were and what we're building it for and they, they helped us build it out from there. So a lot of it revolves around anti magnetism reusing. I think it's, it's been a while since I looked into it. I think it was nickel phosphorus escapements. So they're more anti magnetic but they're also lower coefficient of friction. We also have like a high impact rating. So it's rated to like 555 GS and the rest is mostly like regulations too. So making it that it will operate well in different conditions, different environments and keep as precise of time as possible. So you could say it's kind of like cosc, but because we're not a Swiss company, we can't technically get COSC certification. You have to make your watch in Switzerland. So we just work around it and we'll set our own standard.
- [67:14]
David Vausher
Yeah, I was going to say it sounds like an opportunity right there.
- [67:16]
Karel Bachand
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
- [67:18]
David Vausher
Okay, and now this one. If you haven't checked out the website, please do the memory disc. T minus 5. What, what is this? What is its PER like? This is the most mind blowing thing. Can you walk me through that and walk our listeners through that?
- [67:32]
Karel Bachand
Yeah, for sure. So I think there's a lot of facets to it. And to clarify earlier we were talking about the moon missions. This is the hardware integration we did. So the memory disk is a nano engraved plaque of nickel. You could say that's like a modern high tech hieroglyphs. We engrave it into this plaque, we seal it in lab grade seaplane sapphire and it becomes something that will last upwards of a million years on the moon and we can preserve whatever data we want on it. So those were what the moon missions were about. We sent you could say a lunar time capsule or moon museum art gallery. And the idea was to preserve different snapshots of our civilization at this day and time. And the application it has in the watch might sound, you know, at first it's like okay, well how does that go into watchmaking or a tool for astronauts? And earlier we were talking, you know, what's Berlahan's mission? And I think when we think of space exploration there's the technical side which is always the forefront. And we don't really think of the psychological or spiritual side of what it means to go out there and Be away from home for a year or more. And astronauts that go up and are out there for extended periods of time. There's this phenomena called the overview effect, or Lost Earth syndrome. And it's kind of. I mean, you can imagine if you're super far away from everything you've ever known, and you're just looking at it as an observer, it can be pretty trippy and existential. And you get a lot of reflections on what it is to be human. And so there's not a lot of emphasis on psychology and space exploration. You have a lot of engineers approaching this problem. So we wanted to bake in a little bit of soul and kind of address that phenomena in our own way. And I think watches are already a really good totem or talisman. You kind of carry it with you. It becomes a sentimental piece in a lot of ways. And the memory disc that we're putting on the back of the watch is kind of that connection back to home. It's baking in cultural artifacts from around the world and kind of helping an astronaut be grounded in, you know, where they came from in a way. And everything is reverse readable. So it's not just like a USB drive that you'll need some tech to unencrypt it and use it. You can actually just look at it with a magnifier, and you'll see hundreds of different artworks from around the world, from Van Gogh to Monet. And we're preserving different languages from around the world. So that's our partnership with UNESCO to preserve their constitution in, I think it's 275 different endangered languages. So just lots of different cultural elements to kind of help bridge that connection to home. And that we're using a really cool, novel technology to make that happen. And it just looks amazing in person. It's kind of like a science fiction token that is in the back of the watch. And a carbon copy of that disc is also now on the moon and will be in two other places on the moon at the end of this year and next year.
- [71:21]
David Vausher
I think that's fantastic. And I think it's speaking for the aliens that might find this in a million years. I think they'll appreciate you making an easy.
- [71:31]
Karel Bachand
It's kind of like Easter eggs a little bit. So we're, you know, our. Our plan is the memory disk itself is kind of a nonprofit initiative to do cultural preservation. And we want to integrate it into as many space modules. So right now it's lunar landers, but we want to get one on the space station on astronauts with the, the monolith itself and kind of create this little Easter egg of our civilization. So if a million years from now someone visits us or our civilization continues to advance, we can kind of look back on that. And we baked a lot of little hidden gems in there too. Not just, yeah, a little bit of everything. There's flavors from all over.
- [72:12]
David Vausher
Should have ended on that one. But there's two more that I think out because it's literally out of this world to hear you say that. But the other stuff is awesome as well. And I think Alon was going to walk us through the last too.
- [72:21]
Karel Bachand
Yeah, sure.
- [72:22]
Alon Benjamin Joseph
Before I do. So is the disc customizable?
- [72:25]
Karel Bachand
Carl, We've had a lot of questions on this from current customers as well. And generally speaking, we don't offer any customization. We want to make a standardized unit so that whatever you're wearing is a carbon copy of also what's preserved on the moon. And we also spent a lot of time curating this. We worked with different museum archives and philosophers and just trying to get a sense of what's worth preserving. And it's not going to be perfect. Everyone's going to have their own opinion, but it's a reflection of the art we wanted to put onto it. And the exception we would have is if there's a mission specific objective. So for example, if say there's an astronaut or an organization that would want to put topographical maps as a backup redundancy of where they're going to explore on the moon, of course we would entertain that. It's just the cost of producing is extremely expensive, especially for one offs. So in a way we say no. But if there's a really good use case for an astronaut application, not just like, oh, this is my dog and my kids, then, then we would definitely.
- [73:46]
Alon Benjamin Joseph
Consider going to T minus 4, the monolithic dial. I was actually surprised that you guys opted for ceramic because what us mortals and civilians know, ceramic is very scratch resistant on the surface, but relatively rather brittle, if I may use that word. I don't even know if it's the correct word in English, but What is Aerolite X1 ceramic? Is that more shock proof?
- [74:19]
Karel Bachand
Yeah, so it's, it's derived from. So we worked with RC Tritech on this. They're the kings of Super Luminova. They basically supply the entire watch industry with Super Luminova. And they were super rad to work with. We presented the problem and they helped us come up with a solution along with Les Cadranier de Geneves which is F.P. journe's dial manufacturer. So it was kind of a trifecta of mines with Black Badger as well, which is also the loom wizard. So all four of us kind of got together and just started brainstorming ideas. And the Air light ceramic that we're baking in is a derived version of Luma Cast, but it's built for those specific EVA requirements. So temperature, as you mentioned, shock resistance and just not having degradation, that was also a big concern for us. There's just a ton of solar radiation. It eats up dials. If you look at the early EVA tests for the Speedmaster, there was a loom that was falling off after the tests and a bunch of other stuff, but it was by no means perfect. So we wanted something that was super rugged and monolithic in a way because of the simplicity of it. So there's no paints, there's no adhesives. It's basically two pieces of titanium that sandwich a Air Light ceramic component in between, and then that ceramic is baked in with the brightest lume commercially available from RC Tritech. But I should also add that the ceramic is a big advantage, is that it's temperature stable. So you have the ability to not have something that's expanding and contracting, which can snap over time. So if you have, like traditional dial feet out of brass and then it's going into a steel dial or something like that, you might, because of the temperatures, it might expand and contract and break. But with the coefficients of expansion for the ceramic we're using and these like, titanium sandwich dials, it all kind of expands uniformly, and there's very minimal thermal expansion from it.
- [76:39]
Alon Benjamin Joseph
Amazing. And bonkers. And I'm quite sure Rob Nudds is bummed out he missed this recording, and he apologized upfront because he's traveling. He's actually hanging out with a cool cat called Black Badger.
- [76:53]
Karel Bachand
Nice. Yeah. And I think Rob Nuts is a part of Arcanaut. They're a super rad team also. Love those guys. Got to meet them in San Francisco last year.
- [77:03]
Alon Benjamin Joseph
Correct, Correct. So, very well. Now, T minus 3 is the last one you guys elaborate on your website while recording, because T minus 2 is coming. I thought you guys made a typo when you wrote that. It's triple 5G impact resistant. So 555. Please tell me that's a typo.
- [77:31]
Karel Bachand
It is not a typo. And that's actually just. The movement is certified, so the engine itself is certified for 555Gs. And with this T minus 3 feature that we released recently. It's the engine mount. So it's kind of a shock absorbing system. So it should increase that number by several magnitude. We just need to figure out what that is. So we're going through testing to see how much impact resistance it adds, but it's essentially a shock absorbing system. MBNF has done Flex Ring and Richard Mill has done, I think it was their RM27. The Nadal has like a whole cable suspension for impact resistance. So we came up with our own solution. It had to meet the extreme temperatures of space so it has to like expand properly. And we, we came up with something that's really simple. But so far it's been awesome. I mean we've been beating up these watches and it's been, it's been really good to us so far.
- [78:39]
Alon Benjamin Joseph
Kyle, I've been actually dying to ask you for 80 minutes. Hey, how old are you?
- [78:46]
Karel Bachand
Just turned 30.
- [78:48]
Alon Benjamin Joseph
So for someone that never actually really loved watching, how did you absorb so much knowledge and in depth knowledge, technical knowledge, but you literally know the whole playing field, it seems about watching. Are you autodidactic?
- [79:08]
Karel Bachand
I'm always just interested in learning. For me it's, it's almost, it's just things that interest me. So I think there's that aspect. And if it wasn't for all the people I'm surrounded by, the people that we work with, I don't think you can really just learn that on your own. You need these wizards and disciples to kind of teach you some really cool stuff. Like the people at Black Badger and RC TriTech and FP Jordan style manufacturer. I mean those guys just love doing this stuff day in, day out. So you get to learn a lot from them and you just pick up little bits of snippets along the way. But for, for me it's really exciting whenever someone speaks passionately about what they do. Because it could be as generic as, as bread making. But if someone's really passionate about it, man, I mean, I don't know about you guys, but I just, I would soak it up like a sponge because you just feel the heart and artistry behind it and it's, it's easier to pick up that way and see their perspective.
- [80:15]
Alon Benjamin Joseph
I was already on the fence ordering a monolithic before we started recording. But 10 minutes in already you got.
- [80:22]
Karel Bachand
Me hooked, so let's go.
- [80:24]
Alon Benjamin Joseph
So don't talk to me about passion now. I always say on air this. The worst thing I've ever done is starting this podcast because getting the bug out of my system it's costing me more money because I'm buying more watches. Caro intermezzo. Before you are going to do a scoop on the Real Time show, like many watchmakers do. Do you call yourself a watchmaker? Do you actually do stuff with calibers screwing things in each other?
- [81:00]
Karel Bachand
We did on Project one, but I wouldn't consider myself a watchmaker because there's a lot of people that dedicated so much time to going through the schooling and, like, classical education on it. And that's. I mean, the people that we work with, like GND watchmaking in Connecticut, those. Those guys are wizards, and those guys are, you know, master watchmakers. I. I would consider myself an engineer, and I just live vicariously through the amazing work that they do, and I try to learn as much from it. And I could assemble, you know, a movement here and there, but nothing on the level of what actual watchmakers are doing.
- [81:39]
Alon Benjamin Joseph
Time of the recording, there's no T0Aminus 2, sorry, on the website. Do you want to give our listeners a scoop?
- [81:47]
Karel Bachand
Yeah, sure. Yeah. I can run you guys down the rest of the list. So T minus 2 is going to be an EVA strap that we partnered up with a strap maker for. And that one's really cool. I think that's a underrated feature, is a strap, and especially for space exploration. If you look at the white papers from NASA during the Apollo missions, there was tons of moon dust that was caking into the big Velcro that they had at the time, and they basically flagged that it was an issue and they were looking for alternate solutions. So I think the solution we have is a really solid next step towards not just EVA, but moon missions and beyond. So that's T minus 2, and we'll do a whole deep dive probably next month, actually, once I finish with some other projects, we'll be drafting up the next article and that. So T minus one will be, you could say, the launch of the watch and all the EVA testing that we've been doing. So we'll go through, you could say, the fundamentals of what it takes to certify a watch, what kind of test it's being exposed to and why, and hopefully provide some. Some hard numbers on, on where we, where we hit those metrics and, you know, learnings along the way, too. I think this monolith project is going to be ongoing, and so, you know, even with the first batch of 20, we won't have official EVA certification yet. We're going through all the testing internally, and our goal is that type of Testing is extremely expensive. So we're going to use, you know, the first batch of 20 is going to help fund further EVA certification.
- [83:39]
Alon Benjamin Joseph
I am very curious what you think of Elon Musk.
- [83:43]
Karel Bachand
Yeah, he's been a hot topic, controversial figure lately. I think fundamentally, if you're just looking at the engineering principles and the development that he's kind of helped spearhead, a lot of people also argue that he's not necessarily the whole brainchild behind these companies. It takes, you know, hundreds of thousands of people to make these ideas come to life, whether it's SpaceX or Tesla. But in terms of what he helped push in the space industry, I mean, you can't knock it. No one's even coming close to what SpaceX is doing. So to me, you know, not only did they change the game, but they kind of lit the fire under a lot of people's asses that, you know, maybe Boeing wasn't as competitive or, you know, a lot of the traditional aerospace companies were kind of sleeping on and now they're trying to play catch up and they're still, I would say, a decade away from what SpaceX is doing. So I don't think, I hope they're not the only, you know, space supplier in the future. I really hope that all these different companies and private organizations just work together. But I think in terms of what they inspired and kind of made people dream that civilization beyond Earth was possible, I think that's pretty powerful and a lot of optimism for the people growing up today.
- [85:14]
Alon Benjamin Joseph
I think this is a perfect moment to end this episode. I think that Dave and I can continue not for a bit, but for hours. Thank you, Kyle, for being so flexible to hang out an extra 30 minutes with us because we said we'll wrap it up within an hour. And also apologies to our dear listeners for dragging you along so long. Kyle. It was a true joy and pleasure for me. I'm quite sure it was for David as well. I hope that you will come back on the show maybe when you've launched a monolithic and or when you have an amazing discovery or new technique that you guys have deployed. Rests me to thank you A very much and B, wish you a lot of success to running it down to time. T minus two and T minus one.
- [86:09]
Karel Bachand
Thanks so much, guys, really appreciate you having me on. It's fun to flow with you guys. I feel like we could definitely chat for a while and we probably got scattered along the way, but it was good fun and hopefully people enjoyed it a bit too. And I'd super be down for round two at some point.
- [86:26]
Alon Benjamin Joseph
Amazing. And thank you dear listeners for taking the time to sit down and listen to this episode. You can find all our previous episodes on our official website which is www.therealtime show. You can find us on Instagram at therealtime Show. If you have any questions or you want to support the show, please subscribe, like rate and share it with your friends. If you have any feedback, criticism or tips, send us a message. You can also DM us if you want to join the TRTS community. That's a community where we geek out like we just did on this episode. You can reach David on Instagram at his handle D a v a u c h e r Rob you can find o b n u dds and me you can find at l o n b e n j o s e p h and if you prefer to send us an email you can just add a first name to the address at the realtime show which is the same as our IG handle Stay Sane and Keep on ticking SA.