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- [00:00]
Alon
Foreign.
- [00:06]
Rob
Hello, watch fans, and welcome to another edition of the Real Time show on site at Plexpo for watches and wonders 2025. We are here today with one of our favorite brands, Ulis Nadan, and talking once again to Matthieu Havalan. How are you, Matthieu?
- [00:19]
Matthieu Havalan
I'm very good. What about you?
- [00:20]
Rob
Yeah, we're having a wonderful time. We are very, very exhausted, obviously running back and forth between time to watch us and here. But we would not want to miss this for the world because your novelty this year has been one of the most talked about throughout the fair so far. So can you please tell us what it is that you and I actually have on our wrists?
- [00:36]
Matthieu Havalan
It's called the Diver air. It's, as a matter of fact, the lightest mechanical dive watch ever made. But beyond that, the project started five years ago and we wanted to create the ultimate high horology sport watch. So I think it's. What is it?
- [00:55]
Rob
Just that?
- [00:56]
Matthieu Havalan
Yes. So it's, you know, when we were working on the project, we said, okay, what does it mean making the, you know, ultimate high horology sport watch? And we agreed that there are three ultimate challenges. Number one is lightness. It must be light, if possible, ultralight and super comfortable. Number two, it needs to be robust, which is a challenge when you make something super light. And what does it mean making a watch robust when you are. Ideally because it's a sport watch, it should be a dive watch. And we have very robust manufacturer movements like, you know, the 118 caliber that you have on the regular diver 44. That watch can withstand 5,000 GS in term of acceleration or, you know, shock. So we said, okay, we want also to aim for that on a much more complex product. And then hyrology, because we are isnana it must speaks hyrology. We had Pioneer skeletonization and ultra skeletonization in a dive watch with a diverse skeleton X in 2021. So we said, okay, how can we push that further? Especially if we want to make the watch light, we're going to have to remove and even rework the caliber to be. To be even more skeletonized. So that's what you have at the end on the diver Air. It's a super light Sport watch. It's 52 grams, including the Velcro strap. The strap weight is 6 grams. So the head of the watch is 46 grams. But on top of that, it's a proper diving watch. And it's water resistant to 200 meters. And at the same time, it's super robust. So at 200 meters, you've got a pressure of 170 kilograms on the sapphire glass, so it must be robust. But on top of that, we have the same shock resistance as a regular level 44. And titanium, which is 5,000 GS and 5,000 GS. That's about the. The swing of a pro golfer, you know, when he hit the ball. So, yeah, I mean, we did it.
- [03:07]
Rob
You did it.
- [03:08]
Matthieu Havalan
Yeah, you did it.
- [03:09]
Rob
I mean, it's an absolutely remarkable achievement. I've got it on my wrist and you wouldn't really be able to tell that it's. There's anything there. It's just. It's so stunningly light, but there's so much to it, so much depth, especially in the movement. Alon. Have you had a chance to try it on yourself yet?
- [03:25]
Alon
I haven't. We're sitting in an amazing room. It's actually a studio on the booth. And to welcome me, it's all orange for the duchies. And. And we have. You have actually a beautiful orange strap on Rub. I haven't tried it on. To answer your question, Matthieu is wearing a wonderful white strap and I'm proud of him. Last year he rocked Jordans, J1s, AJ1s. Today he went even more OG. He has dunks on in the UNC colorways. So I'm very, very pleased because we're getting a warm, warm welcome here, Matthieu, until I get finally the watch from Rob in my hands and on my wrist. Diver air. We see beautiful pictures here of professionals diving from the air.
- [04:11]
Matthieu Havalan
Yeah.
- [04:12]
Alon
So you guys are playing the double dive team. Is it also taken into account to be light underwater and coming from the sky? Or are you making a pun that it's so light it will blow up into the air? So let's talk about the term or name dive air, which you did without a space in between the two words.
- [04:35]
Matthieu Havalan
You know, it came naturally. It's a diver watch. So, you know, we have to call it diver, right? And it's super light. So I think, you know, air is. Is the right word. You know, it's like, you know, the very light MacBook is called the MacBook Air. You know, the. The Nikes that help you jump even higher than if you don't wear them are called the Air Nike Air. So air is the right word. It express lightness. It's cool. Everyone remember. And it's also a bit contradictory with diver. Diver air. Tell me more. So I think it's a good, catchy word. Combination. And then as far as the visuals that you see here on the, on the studio, yes, it's a bit of inspiration. So actually Ash from, you know, watch Onista, she's been skydiving with it, you know, a few days back, you know, she made it with the watch. We have also Mike Coutts who is a professional surfer, you know, he lost when he was 18, a leg being, you know, eaten by a shark. He punched the shark and he managed to swim back to the shore. The guy is a force of nature. He's today one of the most important advocate for sharks protections and he's been weighing our divers for now, you know, three, four years. And he's been wearing it and all good too. So, you know, water, air, but beyond that, you know, I've been playing golf with this one many times, you know, tennis, working out with the prototype. You know, it's, that's why for me, diver air, it's to put a name behind it. But for me, it is the ultimate high horology sports watch. And I'm going to say something to you and it's again not to be controversial at all. A good friend of mine is a very good friend with Charles Leclerc and when Charles Leclerc jump into the Monaco harbor, you know, last year after winning the Monaco Grand Prix and came back on the, on the, on the, you know, on, on, on land, he flooded his watch with water, literally. But I, I know why. You know, it's full of carbon. So yes, it's super light, it's like 30 plus grams. But it's not the ultimate hyology sport brand for sure product because you, you can't have a bath with it. So that's what we wanted to do with this watch. We wanted to create something that can, you know, be with you in really any kind of situation. And I'm going to tell you something more. I was in, in Philly for a collector's gathering about a month ago and a good friend of mine, his name is Rob Huberti, he's a former sniper in the Navy seals. Right. So he's in the elite, elite of the army and he's a legend. On top of that, he founded a startup called ZeroEye that, you know, thanks to AI is preventing potential mass shooting, you know, identifying potentially, you know, shooters with guns and stuff like that. But anyway, he loves watches and when he was on the field, you know, back some days, you know, years ago, he was always wearing his watches and he's a big fan of Rolex. But the first uni boat is a freecase ops because, you know, it's a freecase, but it has that military flair. But when I he saw the prototype of the diver air with me, said to me, matthieu, just make sure that you deliver the first one to me. Because that would have been the watch that I would have brought on the field when I was in the army, for sure.
- [08:36]
Alon
Amazing. I wouldn't want to use this segue to talk about how you created this light. For fans of Ulisse Nardin, they know you guys have been pushing boundaries for decades on innovation. The first to do a silicon escapement with the freak with late Schneider, Rolf Schneider. And you guys have now regained your independence again. And you know how I noticed it? We have a beautiful booklet in front of us. And what stood out for me is you suddenly talk about your partners, which usually the Indies do. Yeah, I mean, our mutual friends at me&f are famous for incorporating the friends. So I see you guys do that as well. Can we walk through a new term for me? Nilo foil.
- [09:23]
Matthieu Havalan
Yet? Nylofoil is a composite that we created to make part of the case. So the main part of the case is in titanium because we need the watch to be light, but also to be water resistant. But then we need extra lightness. So what we did is we've got side part of the case that we have been building from nylofoil. So nylofoil is a composition of carbon fiber. It's the same carbon fiber you see the marble that you have on the bezel. It's the same carbon fiber that you have on the nitrofoil. But we mixed it with fishing nets, with ocean netting. Why are we doing it? For two reasons. 60% ocean netting, 40% carbon foil. We have the best combination for something super light and something super robust. And on top of that, there is a meaning with the link that we have with the oceans. We are concerned as a brand of the pollution of the oceans. So we've been partnering with a startup in France to extract from the sea the ocean netting that are polluting the oceans and to make a material out of it called the Nylo mixed with the carbon foil, we created the Nilo foil.
- [10:46]
Alon
I'm a bit big advocate of sustainability. I love how far you guys go by Putting percentages down. 60% for the NYLO, 40% for the carbon fibers, the carbon foil bezel, 100%. Now something new for me. Maybe it's my ignorance, but might be. You're the first ever. The escapement is used by up cycled silicon wavers. Never heard that in watchmaking.
- [11:13]
Matthieu Havalan
So just just to be clear on the sustainability, sustainability aspect, the goal for us, it's to make a superior product. It's to make, to make the ultimate hyology sport watch, we need superior components, superior materials. Then if we can tell a story which is authentic behind it is good. But we don't intend to make the most sustainable sport watch.
- [11:40]
Alon
No green washing what I like.
- [11:42]
Matthieu Havalan
No, no. And that's why the thing with ocean knitting is because we have a commitment to clean, to help cleaning the oceans and to raise concern about polluting the ocean. That's why we're doing it. Right. I'm not putting a part of my jacket into the composite of the watch. Right. So having said that, we've been on the silicon. When we create silicon component for our escapement, we've got leftovers and we want to reuse those leftovers to recreate components in silicon. So this is what we do so that, you know, it's a kind of a closed cycle. There is no leftover at the end.
- [12:27]
Alon
Are you the first to do it?
- [12:29]
Matthieu Havalan
Yes, for sure. I mean, you know, when you pioneer silicone, then you can think about something else. So when we did pioneer silicone, then we advanced silicone with a diamond seal, you know, adding a coating of diamond on our silicone escapement. And that's why today we are the only one of doing it, because we are the only one thinking of doing it.
- [12:54]
Rob
So I love the initiatives that go into this watch, but we also need to talk a little bit more for the listeners to this podcast who can't see what we have before us here about what it actually looks like and you know, where it fits in the whole Ulysse Nadan canon. It is very much a diver by un. It couldn't be by any other brand. Notably the bezel, of course, with the carbon foil is. It's become a bit of a calling card of this era and this echelon of divers that you produce. And here it is beautifully quietened down by the nylofoil flanks. Now it's an interesting thing when you look at the watch broken into pieces. As Matthias said, the important thing to obtain that water resistance that was maybe not present in the docks of Monaco last year is to have that solid case core. But it's not just the case core, it's also a whole titanium case with lug protrusions as well for added stability and strength so that the strap isn't bearing on a non titanium and non traditional material. The extra dimensions to the lugs and the case flanks are provided by effectively sheaths made out of this nylofoil which is lovely matte, beautiful shape and really lovely machining on it. It gives the whole watch its character. Turn it over and you have a titanium case back, a screw down titanium case back. That looks extremely technical. But most impressively for a sports watch water resistant to 200 meters is this enormous edge to edge display back. And this is mirrored by a massive dial aperture as well which gives us a total run through the movement. I mean to me this aesthetic is a perfect mixture of functionality and flair. It looks incredible. It's everything that you would expect from really Snadan but in a package it can be worn daily. So what does it cost to put together something like this?
- [14:42]
Matthieu Havalan
So we so many, many friends and collectors said to me that, I mean they are happy that we price it at 36,000 Swiss franc including VAT. And at the same time, you know, when you put it in comparison with watches that are highly water resistant and you know, very light, obviously you've got, you know, some of those, some Richard Mills, you have also Omega, you know, that did it. I don't know if it's more of a concept watch, you know the, the watch that actually I think has been on the wrist, you know, the, at the, in open games. I think it's 150 meter water resistant and it's 50 plus 55 grams or something like that, but it's like 50K. So we price it at 36,000 sweets. Frank, I've been told during the fair that it's basically, you know, not expensive enough. I like to say that it's a fair price. I'm taking also into consideration the other diver product that we have. You know, I want a bit of a consistency but honestly we are not having huge margin and huge coefficient on those products. Especially if I take into account all the R and D the that we've been putting into it in the last five years. But they are not project. You know, the main goal of U Snardin is not to make money. And I'm really saying that it's to advance the watchmaking industry. Obviously we want to make a bit of money, we want to be profitable, we want to be able to invest in R and D. We want to keep, you know, pushing the boundaries of the escapement of the silicone, etc. Etc. But the main goal is the brand Mission. And the brand Mission has been the very same since the beginning. It's not Me saying it, it's Paul David Nardin, the son of Ulysse Nardin. He said in 1876, if it's possible, it's done. If it's impossible, it will be done. And he had that mindset when he created the first marine debt chronometer. And it's because he had that mindset and kept innovating that the British Navy ended up buying the marine Kromators from Ulyss Narda because they were more accurate, they were a game changer and not having one on board was becoming a huge military disadvantage. So that's who we are and that's why to do. That's our. The reason why we make watches. And the other thing, you know, our responsibility extends to the industry itself. I'm giving you two examples. Obviously you've got the silicone. It's not even an example today. If we had not pioneered silicon, many brands would not be using silicone today. We co founded Sigatec, right, A pioneer in silicon technology. We rescued one of the oldest and best atelier dedicated to enameling called dansee cadron. 95% of what they produce goes to our competitors and we are absolutely fine with that because the brand mission is to advance and to serve the industry. That's why we exist.
- [17:44]
Rob
Obviously people like Alon and I, who adore watchmaking and want to see these advancements and progressions are extremely grateful to the mission of Ulysse Nadam. But tell me, how does it reflect in those sales and in the commercial side of things? Because in the last couple of years it's been a very trying time for the entire industry and you are pursuing your brand mission. The mission that has always been in the mission that always will be Felice Nadam. But obviously, like you say, you don't cover huge riches or piles of gold. You just want to keep going and keep offering something to the horological landscape. But how difficult has it been over the last couple of years for your messaging to cut through all of the pes pessimisms that have surrounded watchmaking in general? Has it been a struggle?
- [18:32]
Matthieu Havalan
No. We are financially sound. You know, when I say financially sound, it means that, you know, we are independent, we have no adept, we, we own the business and we want to take the time to do what is right. And so when you have that flexibility, you don't panic when you know the environment is getting more or difficult. So the way we grow in, you know, we, we kept flap the production, we don't produce more watches. And one year ago, two years ago, three years ago, and I'm not increasing the production for the next X years. We grow on proportion selling, you know, slightly more expensive watches. So in proportion we sell a bit more freaks, a bit more blast, a bit more very high end watches in terms of product mix compared to what we used to sell before. And, and that's enough to grow on a healthy basis. And we have no intention of to, to grow in fact, in terms of numbers, in terms of numbers, in term of watches we produce. Absolutely.
- [19:35]
Rob
Will that mean then in the, in the future that we see the more entry level pieces? Because obviously the diver's got a lovely entry level model that is aesthetically reminiscent of a higher end stuff like this. But will that mean that we're going to see the exit of those models and we're going to see more focus on the technology that you've developed for this 52 gram piece itself.
- [19:56]
Matthieu Havalan
But you're going to see innovation across the board. So you know, you'll see that now it's a time to talk about our sports line, the Div, the diver line. You'll see that we're going to, you know, keep bringing I believe, not a lot, but amazing timepieces on the free collection in the next 18 months. And, and then there will be a time also where we'll be talking about the marine. But the red thread is going to be innovation whether it's in the material, whether it's in the mechanism, whether it's in the, you know, keep on improving the escapement of a watch. That's, that's a red thread and then we need to make sure that each of the questions are, you know, covering a different segment. Marine for me is the sport chic product but there is a sport component into it and that's why, you know, we're going to have a more screwed on crown watches. We're going to have added water resistance also to the watches because you know, if you have your nice marine during the day with like Elon with his suit, if he's having a party with friends or nearby the lake and you want to have a swim, you know, at midnight, you want that watch to be with him when he's swimming in the lake. That's why we're going to improve that also on the marine going forward, then you've got the diver. Diver. It's a sport watch. Yes, you can wear it with, actually it goes well with your, with your suit, but it's, it's, it's a watch. You can wear it in Any configuration, especially sports configuration and then you've got the Freak and, and the Blast which are contemporary hyologic. So as far as the entry that you mentioned today, the entry is, is, is maybe around like 10k, you know, or something. For the marine and diver we will keep upgrading the product. So step by step the entry is going to be more around 15k you€ but only through bringing adding value and better product. I think it's, it's not all right for UN to have watches below 10k as a positioning as a brand.
- [22:00]
Rob
I mean I'm glad to hear that you're going to continue to add value to the products. I think last year when we spoke it was our observations of the industry on mass and although the maybe negative vibes that affect other brands haven't really touched Ulis Nadan and haven't really touched its position as a market leading innovator in. It's great to see that you're also listening to the needs and the demands of customers and for them to be able to wear the watches day in, day out in any situation. And personally I've always wanted to buy into the diver range. So I guess if you feel like me, you better do it quick.
- [22:30]
Alon
And on a closing note, it sounds so extreme light and I have it finally on my wrist because Rob had to twist his arm to get it off his wrist. I love the pursuit for lightness and durability and sustainability. It could be a negative correlation to sturdiness and quality. So since we're an audio only podcast, just listen to these guys and girls and I think that says it enough. 50 plus grams but sturdy like a volt.
- [23:07]
Rob
Yeah, it's built like a tank and it wears like a dream. I'm gonna need to start saving up I think. But I tell you what, 35 was it 35?
- [23:16]
Matthieu Havalan
36.
- [23:16]
Rob
36. Okay, well maybe 35 between friends, you know. But 36 Swiss I think is an absolutely fantastic price for what it is. It has all of the great Ulyss Nadan DNA. You can see it in the silicon balance fluttering away at 6:00. I'm in love. Matthieu, thank you for your time. Thanks as always for giving us something to get excited about and I wish you a wonderful end to the fair.
- [23:37]
Matthieu Havalan
Thank you so much to the two of.